Joe Rogan Experience #2109 - Abigail Shrier

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day hello good to see you again it's. great to see you um what was the what. was it like the last time you did the. show well they tried to kick it off. Spotify yeah it was a very small noisy. group of people by the way it wasn't the. the head people right they tried to make.

it seem like there was this big movement. to get it kicked off Spotify but when. you examine what you were saying and you. know many more people are saying what. you were saying this was like what year. was this when you were on 2020 2020 yeah. um the it had sort of just started. boiling yeah you know and now four years. later it's there's a lot of people. pushing back that's right and I honestly. I thought you were going to never have. me on your show again why because you.

know it was very I mean they had 10. meetings with the employees demanding. that it be removed I thought Joe's going. to be so mad at me no no they're wrong. they're wrong they're wrong they're. every time someone wants to stop. discussions they're wrong they're wrong. especially when you want to try to stop. discussions about a very serious and. permanent thing that people are. advocating to do to children that is. also very profitable and it's a it's a.

dark weird sort of a scenario that we're. in here right now that's unprecedented. that no one's ever experienced before. and they're using terms like life saving. gender affirming care yeah instead of. castration and and removing breasts and. hormones and it's it's a very very. strange time so I'm glad we had that. podcast and I would have a hundred more. of them great I think it's very. important to talk about this and I think. there's too many people that are scared. to talk about it and that's why this.

stuff is getting so much's traction and. it's scary it's scary it's scary that. people aren't willing to admit that. children are very easily influenced. that's right I think that's the scariest. thing of all that people are afraid to. just say the truth yeah and that's not a. good world because we can fix most. problems if we can talk about them yeah. yeah exactly and that's my my position. on anyone trying to stop you from. talking about things yeah you know. they're they're wrong it's not it's not.

the way to do it it's definitely not the. American way and uh it's not the way. we've ever solved problems in this. country and uh it you know it's it's a. bad thing when you can't be honest about. things and the reason why they want to. try to do it is because they know that. there's too many people that agree with. it and that these people have been. silenced before so they'd like to bully. them into silence they like to scare. them into silence they like to get them. canceled and you know before Elon. purchased Twitter you used to be able to. do that much more effectively you know. what the silencing yeah the silencing so.

easy if you said I mean look Megan. Murphy was kicked off of Twitter for. years that's right just for saying a man. is never a woman that's right and it. look I mean there's no question I think. that Elon taking over Twitter broke open. the Monopoly on a lot of conversations I. I do think that had that effect and it's. really important I mean look if they're. position if the gender activist position. was a good one they wouldn't have to. shut everyone up right they wouldn't. have to object I mean they took my book.

off Target they threw a fit and Target. removed the book and they did it because. even though they have hundreds of trans. celebratory books hundreds of celebr. books celebrating gender transition for. teenagers even one that was critical of. it that was too much for them because. they knew it would break their Monopoly. on the narrative well the the really. scary thing is when you see these D. transitioners get attacked that's that's. terrifying that's ter terrifying because.

that's just so it's so. cruel it the the the complete lack of. compassion for someone that's done you. know as the title of your book. irreversal damage to to their life. forever they'll never have children. again they'll never have breasts again. and. this the fact that this is just a part. of this bizarre cult that a giant swath. of our population is consumed by right. now that's right right and they didn't.

they didn't let D transitioners be part. of the story yeah that there was a. growing number of these women who were. regretting their transition and they had. something and they were brave enough to. speak up and that took real courage. because they're talking about their own. experience their own damage to their own. bodies I mean they were the most. courageous of all and uh and they were. they were treated horribly by the. activists yeah it's so dark like you. don't want to think that people can make. mistakes even if you think that people. should be allowed to transition when.

they're young you don't think that some. people are going to do it and regret it. that's insane right you think that. everybody who goes. through surgery to remove parts of their. body because they feel like they're in. the wrong gend you think all those. people are going to be happy that's. Insanity yeah I mean it it's you know. like a religion in the sense of a fund. the fundamentalism of belief against all. evidence to the contrary I mean these. people believe this One Faith it was a.

Creed and there was no disabusing them. of this even when there was growing. evidence of thousands of young women. regretting it well finally now the New. York Times is on board though which is. really interesting it is and I saw I saw. someone commenting on Twitter and I. think they're probably correct and they. said this is because the trial lawyers. are involved now and I think they're. correct I think this is why the New York. Times has kind of shifted sides because. I think they realize the loss suits are.

coming and once a few of them are. successful and they will be it's going. to get crazy well I I think that that is. a part of it um but I don't think the. lawsuits are going to solve it as easily. as they did say the repressed memory. Scandal uh of Prior eras and you know um. the multiple dis you know personality. disorder you know all these people who. thought they had repressed memory of of. various kinds of harm uh and uh were. imagining you know uh you know childhood.

molestation that didn't happen and put. you know that you talking about like the. the satanic stuff from the 8S from the '. 80s that whole Satan I I think that got. reversed through lawsuits in part. because they weren't following Clear. Medical you know clear Protocols of. their profession the problem with the TR. the gender going after the gender regime. through the courts and I'm in favor of. it don't get me wrong but the problem is. that the gender therapists that the the. therapists the doctors were all all. following protocol when they transition.

a kid um to you know and cut up their. bodies in various ways you know. incapacitated them in various ways they. were actually following affirmative care. which is the official protocol so I just. which is crazy it's crazy it's it's so. crazy that there's so many things that. we don't allow children to do because we. know that children can't really make. lifelong decisions at the age of 11 and. 12 and 13 but yet we'll let them in this.

case that's. right it's so. nuts yeah I I you know when I look back. on it you know there are a few I sort of. had a few there were a few sort of. lessons of of it but one of the things. that really stood out was that um almost. in every case there were medical. professionals who should have known. better and very often therapists who. should have known better encouraging the. a young girl who was a little anxious or. had some anxiety had some depression.

encouraging her down this road as the. solution yeah but it's also not. recognizing what we know about what. happens to people when they give them. testosterone so testosterone alleviates. anxiety testosterone creates a feeling. of euphoria right it does a lot. especially when you give it to someone. in doses that their body would never. normally have that's right that's right. and so what the girls would go on it and. they would feel great and they would. become evangelists for testosterone they.

would tell all their friends you got to. do this I feel great all my anxiety is. gone of course now they may have a. permanent 5:00 shadow yeah um you know. change in their voice their voice and. when they detransition that never goes. away yeah yeah it's very dark it's very. dark and I would have never imagined. this I would have never imagined that. before covid I had a completely. different opinion of the medical. establishment my opinion to the medical. establishment is that they were there to. help people that's it I never questioned. it I questioned the motives of some of.

the pharmaceutical drug companies that. were trying to sell drugs but I felt. like the medical establishment always. figured that out eventually and then. they they ban those drugs the ones that. were harmful but that's not real that's. not really what happens it's a money. game the whole thing is a money and. influence game and it's run by very. powerful people and no one wants to. think that those same factors are at. play when it comes to gender transition. but you know I've shown people the map.

of gender transition clinics in 2007. versus gender transition clinics in 2023. and it's [ __ ] insane yeah it's insane. yeah hundreds and hundreds of new gender. clinics all across the country um you. know it the industry expanded so rapidly. with very little oversight and it was. just how fast could we get these drugs. to these kids yeah um so yeah I mean I I. agree with you there wasn't enough.

oversight but there also weren't enough. good people speaking up a lot of the. best doctors who were like I'm I didn't. enter the medical profession to do this. they they went silent or they referred. to other they said why don't you you. know let me refer you to a specialist. well actually the gender surgeons often. you know weren't more weren't even you. know adequate to the task because it's. very very complicated surgery um you. know involving you know transferring. peripheral nerves and whatnot um so it's. not easy surgery depending on which. surgery you're talking about very often.

they weren't even the most qualified. surgeons doing the surgery so you had a. lot of uh you know surgeries that didn't. go quite right well none of them go. quite right I mean that's what's dark. about it I mean you're you're V you're. creating a new thing you know whether. you're creating a a penis or whether. you're turning a a penis into a vagina. you're this is not this is not like. heart surgery this is not something. they've been doing forever that they. have this long history of doing it.

successfully and they know exactly how. to do it correctly the whole thing is. very Twisted yeah the the rates of you. know all kinds of things going wrong I. mean you know you know if you talk about. the you know the the you know creation. of the Neo fallis the the ones you take. a vagina to to make something like a. penis um the the number you know getting. it to you know urine to go in a stream. as opposed to a spray or making it so. that the person can have an erection. then a strong enough erection to.

actually penetrate these are all require. se you know separate surgeries very. often um very often it doesn't go quite. right then there's all kinds of. complications with the surgeries I mean. I've talked to people who' have been. really butchered so uh so again what was. it like for you did you expect when you. wrote that book did you expect the kind. of blowback that you experienced like. what did you expect when you wrote the. book obviously you felt the need to. express this and you felt the need to. share this information. because you you recognize that there's.

like this contagion this social. contagion that seems to be happening. it's a big part of what's going on and a. lot of these kids are very easily. influenced a lot of them are on the. Spectrum and they're being led down this. road so you write this book what did you. expect was going to be the reaction to. it well most books get very little. attention at all so most books write you. know I I certainly didn't expect the you. know massive uh reaction that I got I.

mean the the public campaign to ban me. from every possible Outlet was was so. hypercharged and to some extent it was. successful I mean it was they kept the. book on Amazon it was deleted from. Target you can't find it in a uh a. public library in America no matter how. many people tried to donate it to their. libraries so to some extent it was. successful but you know the campaign to. to to stifle the book but because I made. it onto places like your podcast because. I made it into to Amazon um people got.

it U parents got it and for the first. time I think parents had another source. of information besides The activist's. Narrative of oh you know you you're. either going to have a live daugh you. know a live son or a dead daughter this. this lie that your child's going to kill. themselves if if you don't do exactly. what I say and let them transition now. this lie was the prevailing narrative. and I think you know I was able to break. through and uh I think that's what made. people so angry that lie falls apart.

under scrutiny when you look at the. suicide rates of people that are trans. right right there's actually a new study. out of Finland showing that a really. good long-term study you know I think it. came out maybe just this week showing. that um the rates when you control for. other mental health issues the rates of. suicide among those with gender. dysphoria the you know uh you know. discomfort with the biological sex the. the rates of suicide are no higher than. for the general population. that's crazy um your new book bad.

therapy why kids aren't growing up yes. what's wrong with therapy what are they. doing wrong you know they're they're. giving it to kids who aren't sick who. aren't actually struggling with mental. illness or or disorder they're giving it. to everybody so what they're doing is. they're making existing problems worse. and they're introducing new problems. because therapy has side effects just. like any inter ition that has the power. to help it also has the power to harm in.

what way well some of there's a Whole. Body Research on on some of the side. effects of therapy and they include. things like alienation from spouse. alienation from parents uh worsening of. depression worsening of anxiety um. feeling of incapacity feeling like you. can't do things without consulting your. therapist um all those are well-known. iatrogenic effects feeling uh once you. have a mental diagnosis the labeling. feeling limited by that label. oh oh I have anxiety I can't um so all.

those things are well-known what they. call iatrogenic effects meaning when. whenever a medical procedure actually. introduces harm that's an iatrogenic. effect and we know that of course you. know drugs and surgeries always come. with you know even the life-saving ones. can come with um some harm and what. people might not know is that therapy. comes with these risks as well so is is. this your opinion on therapy in general. do you think there's a place for therapy. absolutely but I I guess the big picture.

you know theme Here is that therapy with. kids and teens is totally different for. therapy with an adult right an adult. sits down first of all an adult makes. the decision on their own you know I. really want to work work on this I'm. going to go to a therapist and you get. the patient Buy in and they're ready to. do the hard work of therapy but a child. or teenager is usually strong armed into. therapy so they don't want to be there. in the first place but more importantly. you know they can't say it as easily to. a therapist um listen I I don't really.

think it I I think it gave you the wrong. impression I I don't think I would call. my mom emotionally abusive or it's much. harder for them to say listen um I don't. I I know I was bullied in middle school. but I don't think I have PTSD it's. harder for a kid to say that because. they don't have the life experience uh. behind them to know that and and they. don't know if they're getting better as. easily an adult can say you know I've. been seeing this therapist for 3 years. you know my depression's as bad as it. ever was it's just not working and move.

on maybe find a different therapist it's. much harder for a teenager to know that. yeah I have never been in therapy. although a lot of people told me I. should um but they all are in therapy. and it doesn't seem to be helping but. the the people that I know that are in. therapy the ones that are in therapy. regularly are the most [ __ ] up and I. don't see Improvement I don't I mean. maybe it's just a a bias sampling of the. people that I know that are doing it but.

it's the people that it's not all of. them but the ones that I find. problematic are very self-indulgent and. there's something about going to a. therapist and talking about yourself. constantly and your problems constantly. that sort of reinforces this self. self-indulgent and that's what can lead. depression to get worse sadness to get. worse as you sit and focus on your pain. it if you're not careful especially with. teens and kids it can make the pain the.

worry the the feeling of being harmed. worse and I think that's what we're. seeing but what about the good. therapists aren't there good therapists. that can give you tools to sort of. change your patterns of thinking and. behavior and move in a positive way so. if you're struggling with a condition of. some sort a phobia anorexia um OCD you. know any number of problems that you. want to deal with therapy can be great. cognitive behavioral therapy especially. can be great but if you go if you're a.

teen or kid who shows up bummed out or. you know just generally kind of anxious. um to a therapist you have a good shot. of having that problem made. worse and but why is that what is it. about going to therapy with that problem. that's going to make it worse because. you're going to sit and talk about your. worries regularly they're not going to. say you know that exercise is amazing. for depression study after study in fact.

there have been recent studies showing. it's better than anti-depressants for a. lot of you know um you 1.25% I mean it's. amazing right like or excuse me one and. a quarter like one times better right. one yeah dancing is apparently amazing. for you know low moon now I'm not. talking about severe major depressive. disorder okay when you have severe. chronic depression you may need to treat. it with medication or or therapy. but for you know low mood you know sort.

of mild to moderate depression exercise. turns out to be better and it doesn't. have those side effects yeah but let me. give you an example of a teenager I. talked to so I talked to this girl Becca. that's what I call her in the book but. um she was a high school senior and she. had been in therapy since age six okay. when her parents divorced she didn't. have any um diagnosed mental disorder of. any kind but she had regularly been in. therapy cuz her parents divorc and they. said you got to go to therapy so I asked.

her as a high school senior so what are. you working on with your therapist now. and she said to me my therapist is. getting me ready to make friends in. college she's helping me oh boy so we're. rehearsing we're going through my past. experiences and we're talking about how. to get me ready to make friends in. college that gives me anxiety just. thinking about it right someone coaching. me to go make friends is like what right. do you see this generation feels that it. can't do because they've gotten so much. oversight and so much needless mental. health intervention that they're.

questioning themselves all the time. they're in their heads all the. time and what what motivated you to. write this book like do you have. personal experiences with people that. are going through this well you know two. things like one is I'm raising three. kids in this generation so I wanted to. know like why was the generation that. got the most mental health intervention. the most therapy the most psych meds the. most interventions in schools the most. therapeutic parenting why were there in. the most distress and why were they so.

afraid to grow up and we shouldn't see. that they should be the picture of. Wellness nobody worried about anybody's. mental health more than we worried about. their mental health and yet they're the. picture of Despair so I I really wanted. to know like what was going on with them. and also of course I had written. irreversible damage and I knew from that. you know experience that very often when. a young woman would tell a story about. when her life went desperately off track. it was with a therapist and here's the. thing it wasn't necessarily a gender.

therapist most often it was just your. vanilla psychodynamic therapist who was. there to talk to an anxious or dep a. little bummed out teen you know mildly. depressed teen about their bad feelings. and lo and behold during the course of. gen you know regular psychodynamic. therapy they would say and what are your. feelings on. gender and with the therapist they would. go down that. route wow. um there's a lot of other factors too.

right that's contributing to kids. anxiety today and a big one has to be. social media absolutely absolutely. social media is a huge part of the story. there's no question you know I wrote. about it in the first book and you know. Jonathan height Jee twangy have been. talking about it for eight years now and. they've brought rigor and important. research to show that that has you know. extracting kids from their social world. is bad yeah and getting them you know. making them you know getting the do. dopamine dopamine hit and the you know.

you know the the anxious you know worry. about who's going to write me back and. when and then getting the dopamine hit. at when they get that response and that. whole cycle there's no question that. plays on our natural sort of you know. propensities for addiction um and and. makes kids more anxious um but I I think. it's part of what we're seeing I don't. think it's the whole story um and the. the reason I don't think it's the whole. story is a few things first of all.

childhood mental health has been and. Adolescent mental health has been in. precipitous decline in this country. since the. 1950s so and how do they measure that so. from let's say 19 by every measure by. the way but let's say take between 1955. and 1988 the rates of adolescent suicide. quadrupled so that's just one measure. but there are many I mean we've seen it. from non-suicidal self harm suicidal. self harm all of these rates have gone. up for ad Ence um but they but they've.

been in Decline for mental health in. this you know of teens has been in. Decline for years there's also some. other statistics or some other reasons I. don't think phones explain the whole. story one of them is that in 2016 the. CDC came out with a report and they said. that one in six kids between the ages of. 2 and eight these aren't kids with. smartphones between the ages of two and. eight one and six kids had a mental. health or behavioral. diagnosis that's a lot of kids that's a. lot of kids with a mental health. diagnosis right do you think that a.

factors parents with mental health. issues and there's I think more adults. are anxious more adults are suffering. from anxiety and depression at least. diagnosed anxiety and depression now. than ever before I think adults are. absolutely passing on their anxiety to. their kids and that actually we're. seeing that in you know Jean twangy came. out with this book Generations and one. of the things she said in it is that. boys even even though teenage girls have. the worst mental health in general boys.

from Liberal families had worse mental. health than girls from conservative. families in terms of anxiety and. depression so why should that be we know. the girls are on social media more right. boys you know that's not their thing. right they're they're into video games. or whatever but um I think part of the. reason is what you said they certain. families that are passing on anxiety. about things like climate change but I. also think um it show that it's in the. environment we're giving them we're not.

giving kids a healthy life right we. think that we can give them an unhealthy. life and just pour in the mental health. resources and remediate but it doesn't. work like that and then the last reason. I don't think that phones totally. explain everything or or social media is. because they in societies where they use. just as much social media it's not great. for their me the kids mental health no. doubt but they have much better rates of. anxiety and depression than we do. countries like Japan and Israel where. kids have have more Independence they. have more freedom they have more they're.

able to take more risks on their own and. they they walk home from school they. kind of they do all kinds of you know. jobs outside of the house uh like run. errands for the family and um they get a. feeling of first of all short-term joy. and long-term satisfaction from being. able to take risks see what they can. handle but also a feeling of of of. efficacy in the. world so that's an interesting statistic. that you were saying that.

so conservative families have less. depressed kids is that what you're. saying apparently boys from dep from. conservative sorry boys from Liberal. families have higher anxiety rates than. girls from conservative families but. above like if you just looked at the. norm more girls generally have anxiety. right but in conservative. families girls are less anxious than. boys from Liberal families that's right.

and I mean we could speculate as to why. there are lots of proposed reasons for. that but one of the many you know things. that we might first of all we know it's. in the environment at that point it's. not an organic whatever these kids are. going through it's not organic right so. we know it's something we're pouring. into their life and I think one of the. things might be that aside from the fact. that parents and conservative families. may be more comfortable asserting their. Authority with kids and that's that's an. old finding we've known for Generations.

now that authoritative parenting means. meaning not cold parenting not cruel not. unloving rules but rules those kids have. better mental health they're happier and. they're more successful in all kinds of. ways so it may be something to do with. comfort with rules but also they're less. likely to turn their kids lives over to. a mental health. expert is it so what is the speculation. as to why rules alleviate anxiety is it. because there's structure there's more. structure to the world so seem things.

seem less open-ended and less chaotic. and that's right I think it's something. to do with that kids need guard rails. they know they're not ready to be in. charge you know parents today are so. quick to put kids in charge what do you. want where would you like to go to. school what would you like to eat for. dinner you know putting kids in charge. um but we've known since the 1960s Diana. bomr did this research years ago and. it's some of the it's some of the. sturdiest uh research we have because. they've replicated it hundreds of times.

and they've shown that loving parents. who are also rule-bound they call them. authoritative not authoritarian which is. the cold unloving rule bound but the. loving and Rule bound parents tend to. raise the happiest kids because kids. knows there are guardrails and here's. the thing the people who are making the. rules aren't some expert mom hired. they're the people who love me most. they're my parents they're the ones in. charge I think that's really comforting. to. kids that's interesting because that's. not what people think of when they think.

of authorit or authoritative parents. they think of parents that are. restricting their children and the. children are going to Rebel that's right. I mean there's there's a lot of really. good research on this but they it. actually doesn't create more rebellious. kids by virtually every metric they they. do much better in all you know in all. kinds of circumstances and and in all. kinds of situations and the permissive. what they used to have was permissive. parents and Authority Arian parents. those were the other two extremes. permissive parents let kids do whatever.

they wanted and authoritarian parents. you know said obey at all cause and they. were fairly cold and their kids didn't. end up great in terms of mental health. but here's um but you know today we. don't even have per permissive parents. in you know in my view I think we have. something even worse we have permissive. parents who are therapeutic meaning. they're always asking kids what they. want but they're and and they're never. asserting their Authority but they're. doing something else they're hovering. and surveilling their kids and so it's.

permissive without the. independence yeah there's that's a weird. one right like the snap maps and stuff. where you're following your kids. everywhere on Snapchat they're. surveilling them these kids have no. Independence they have no space for Mom. is not or dad and it's not doing them. any good. H why do you think it is that things. have moved in this general direction. like why do you think it is that more. parents are seeking Psychotherapy for.

their children and that it's having this. negative effect so I think you know I'm. I'm at the tail end of Gen X 1978 was. year I was born and I think with my you. know we were the high Watermark of. divorce and I think a lot of you know. teenagers might you know who grew up. when I did they felt like you know my. parents were divorced they weren't there. for me I wish I had had someone I could. talk to and so they sort of naive and. they had good experiences in therapy and. they sort of naively you know watched.

Good Will Hunting and they thought you. know therapy is good for everyone and. they sort of naively turned their kids. over to a mental health expert right. away you know at the first I talk to. moms who signed their kids up for. therapy because a cat died because their. grandma died because basically anything. that would happen in their life even. routine events and yeah look having your. grandparents die is very sad but that's. not you know a you expected trauma. that's part of life right yeah and.

signing up your kid with a therapist. might help if they're having a real. problem but but it could also introduce. other problems and I think that's what. we're seeing yeah there's a a there's a. reluctance to let children experience. discomfort right exactly yeah exactly. and that's really the only way you learn. you have to you we learn I mean. obviously bad feelings can be devast. ating but bad feelings also can let you.

understand the landscape of the world. better and understand what to do and. what not to do and what the consequences. are of certain actions you know I had um. some friends when I was growing up that. got that became addicted to drugs and. it it sealed the deal for me like with. cocaine was a big one like I've never. tried cocaine and one of the main. reasons is because of my friends that I. had when I was in high school I saw. the negative it was horrible it was. horrible to experience it's horrible as.

a friend to watch all that go down but. those bad feelings teach you something. they teach you something very important. about what the consequences of certain. Behavior are that's exactly right there. there's this amazing long-term study on. kids who live through the. depression and they found that the kids. who ended up and they followed these. kids from from they were born 1920 1921. and they followed them long term and you. know who did did the best in the Great. Depression it wasn't the poorest kids.

whose parents you know killed themselves. or abandoned them and it wasn't the rich. kids who didn't feel the depression at. all it was the kids who of the deprived. middle class the ones who had to take in. extra jobs wear hand me downs do extra. work those people ended up so Scrappy. and so strong and here's the thing they. also ended up happy really happy cuz. they were resilient they had lived. through something they had learned it. and they learned this this amazing. gratitude when things went right yeah. that's the thing the overcoming.

adversity and becoming resilient the. there's not there's no pill for that. there's no you can't just talk through. that you have to actually experience it. that's right and we spent so much time. worrying about trying to make our kids. Happy And we don't spend enough time. trying to make them strong and you know. what we've made them neither because. making happiness your goal is actually a. recipe for being unhappy and if you. don't make a kid strong he can't be. happy and you know I think about my. grandmother and you know because.

everybody has you know if if anybody. thinks about their grandparents they. went through some hard stuff right my I. you tell the story in the book my my own. grandmother lived through the depression. her mother died in child birth giving. bird birth to her she was bounced around. she had to be taken out of her father's. home I don't know if there was abuse. it's not clear but somebody decided she. should be taken out of her father's home. and he was Raising four kids by himself. and when her oldest sister um married at. 17 she went to live with her then she um. ended up at 16 she got spinal bulber.

polio she ended up in an iron lung for a. year and she went on to college she uh. raised she married she raised three kids. she went to night school she became one. of the first judges in Maryland female. judges in Maryland and I and she was the. happiest person I knew and that's the. kicker like it wasn't just that she. achieved so much she was someone who. took in foster kids her whole life she. was a happy person who felt grateful all.

the time and today a school counselor. would take one look at her and say. you've been through a lot of trauma we. should talk about. it but but there's got to be some Middle. Ground isn't there is there some Middle. Ground where children can have someone. they can confide in and have. conversations with that can express. these things to them that although. you're going through something awful. that resilience is actually going to. serve you in the long run and even. though this feels terrible now on the.

other side of it you will have new tools. that will help you manage life if that. was what school counselors said to kids. that would be amazing but the problem is. the mental health profession doesn't. look at doesn't track there's no. requirement that they track negative. side effects they're not measuring in. general now I have some exceptions that. I mentioned in the book but in general. they're not measuring is your anxiety. going getting better like cognitive. behavioral therapists will often measure. and they'll often say to a parent I'm.

going to see them for this many sessions. and we're going to measure and make sure. the phobia is improving but very often. they'll just talk about the pain and. talking about the pain regularly. endlessly you know is often not as good. for a kid as joining the basketball team. so this so what you're talking about is. essentially the title of your book which. is bad therapy there has to be some good. therapy right the good therapy is. therapy for a kid who needs it not. preventive only I think so so like what.

what do you think the requirements would. be for someone to get good therapy like. what what would have to be wrong in the. child's life I think it would be. something where you can't the parent has. tried to stabilize the kid that it's. they have a problem it's interfering. with functioning and they can't. stabilize the kid they've tried other. methods and if they still can't. stabilize the kid I think therapy could. be absolutely uh you know really helpful. and I think you should then research the. therapist like you would any surgeon so. do you think it's something like.

anti-depressants where it's just. overprescribed yes where it's everything. looks like a nail if you have a hammer. right it's way way way overprescribed by. the way we have so many mental you know. mentally unwell people in our streets. who are completely underserved and. undertreated and I think the reason is. treating them is really hard we also. have a lot of mentally ill therapists. you know I was reading this crazy story. about this therapist Who convinced her. client her patient to uh murder her ex. wow yeah she she got this guy to fall in.

love with her and then she got him to go. and murder her. ex I mean I believe it you know like I. mean there are there's no question whens. are humans therapists are humans and a. lot of times when you talk to people who. went through a PhD in Psychology they'll. tell you that some of their colleagues. were a little scary because they entered. the profession because they had mental. health struggles of their own and it's. important that a therapist not you know. inject them their own problems into the. therapy and uh for that you need a.

really good qualified person and um I. don't think that's the majority of what. kids are getting no well. so so how do you know what these kids. are experiencing when they're having. this therapy like what what are we. basing this on what do we do we get. reports from the children of what they. talked about with the therapists and. know that that has had a NE effect oh. okay so first of all there is no. oversight which is a huge problem right.

there's no one the profession doesn't. require it they're not measuring harms. they're not tracking harms the medical. professions of course do require it. right they're federally required if you. have an adverse reaction to a drug it. gets reported but with therapy there is. no tracking um but there but there's. something else too um we know that as um. a treatment enters a population pool and. it becomes more accessible and more. prevalent the rates of disease or malady.

or disorder should go down right we've. seen this with breast cancer 1989 was. the high water mark of breast cancer you. know death from breast cancer as. screening improved as it got more. prevalent and more accessible to people. rates of death from breast cancer have. plummeted so why are the people who are. getting the most treatment and the most. access to mental health treatment they. are having the worst anxiety and. depression why it's a skyrocketing it. should be going down if the treatment.

were effective it would be going down. but there are those other factors that. we talked about like social media living. in the age of the internet this is a. bizarre time to be a child I think that. children today are experiencing. unprecedented pressure in a weird way. that no one knows how to navigate cuz no. one grew up with it besides them right. so if you're talking about things like. social media I do think that makes. childhood worse and harder um there's no. question but there other and there are. other things that are making childhood.

uniquely you know hard in some sense now. of course we have Generations that have. lived through pandemics you know. depression Great Depression you know. economic deprivation and all kinds of. things but um I you know two things one. with any population you would want to. see some dent in the depression we're. not seeing that okay but the other thing. is where were the mental health experts. with social media right they could have. called for a ban they didn't I don't.

think they knew right away right it had. never it had never existed before no but. there's been really good evidence for. the last eight years I don't think. there's a parent alive who doesn't. already know that social media is bad. for kids right we've known the phones we. see what they do we see how angry kids. get when you try to take them away we. know that there's like this addictive. element and that kids act a little. crazed we we can see it we've known that. I mean there's been good research out. for eight years now why have the mental.

health organizations who have been in. 2020 warning the Congress about climate. change uh systemic racism police tactics. they were they were quick to announce. you know their views on all those things. they had nothing to say about the. lockdowns they had nothing to say about. um about social media they'd never. called for a band on social media they. never issued the same warning that. doctors gave about cigarettes. why because social media does have some. positive aspects to it unlike cigarettes.

right there's there's cigarettes have. positive aspects they're neural. stimulants they're social right but it. gives you cancer long term yeah look I'm. saying I'm not an advocate for. cigarettes I see you're saying I see. what you're saying yeah but bottom line. they lead to cancer and the do and you. know the medical establishment the. Surgeon General felt like we had to warn. the public they lead to cancer and just. like that if you're a responsible. organization you have you have to warn. people hey you know what this social. media is really bad for kids we're. seeing their anxiety get worse they're. having they're with they have they're on.

their phones all day long even in school. we've known for eight years now the the. um researchers have been out sorry we're. we're warning parents we don't want to. see um smartphones in schools and we we. think no no uh kid no teenager should be. on social media they could say that do. you think anybody would listen to that. that seems like the problem with that is. it's like trying to. put the water back in the dam it just I. just don't believe that that would be.

effective well maybe they could have. said something about it at the very. beginning if we knew the consequences of. social media let's go back to like 2005. or something like that before it was. really a thing if they started seeing it. happen if they could put the kabash on. it then but now that it's so ubiquitous. I just I can't imagine a world where. anybody would effectively say there's a. state that's trying was it Montana. that's trying to ban Tik Tok okay wasn't. I don't know I I believe you there's.

like some State that's trying to ban Tik. Tok for kids a few States just sued a. multiple companies let me find that for. what though uh something about kids. using it. states is it because of their access to. questionable. material find out specifically uh. October 24th here multi multi-state. Federal. lawsuit uh doesn't on the screen dozens. of states are suing Instagram parent. meow over addictive.

H okay dozens of States Sue Instagram. parent meta over addictive features and. youth mental health harms so this is a I. think they're they're talking about. algorithms they're talking about how. algorithms Target children demand users. constant attention meta has profited. from children's pain by intentionally. designing its platforms with. manipulative features that make children. addicted to their platforms while. lowering their self-esteem. hm yeah that's that lady from New York.

um social media companies including meta. have contributed to a National Youth. Mental Health crisis and they must be. held. accountable. yeah interesting Florida's got a. separate lawsuit for misleading users. about potential health. risks how did they mislead. them I would have to read the. lawsuit so it says meta's design choices. and practices take advantage and. contribute to Young users susceptibility.

to addiction the complaint reads they. exploit psychological vulnerabilities of. young users through the false promise. that meaningful social connection lies. in the next story image or video and. that ignoring the next piece of social. content could lead to social. isolation that seems like a stretch I I. don't think they say that no one says. that ignoring the next piece of soci. social content could lead to social. isolation what they do say is that. children feel left out if they're not on. social media because there's a lot of.

these little chat groups and they share. videos and information that's how they. find about songs and bands that they. like and movies that they like and. television shows they like so it is a. part of society today in sort of an. inexorable part of society well why I. mean I think there are a couple reasons. why one of them is we made no effort to. stopped them during the school day right. that would have been really easy yeah. you can be on your phone just not during.

the school day that's so obvious that. it's it's almost pathetic that we don't. have that already in place right because. why why do you need to be checking your. text you're in school with your friends. right so um so there were things that we. could do and could have done but we. didn't do them and I think one of the. reasons was that I think that mental. health experts I mean I know there are. therapists who allow therapy over text. message oh right they are they they have.

that seems crazy yeah it's crazy but. they have they have made no effort to. stop this the mental to warn the public. about this and frankly I think in many. cases they've undermined it right there. are therapist who went on zoom and never. went. back right yeah Zoom is a little. different right because you're you. actually are interacting with a person. even though it's through a screen you're. communicating with them right you are um. but you get none of the benefits of in. person so um you know this they have. measured and um the benefits of being in.

person seeing someone face to face the. psychic benefits are real even when. you're with someone you don't want to be. with the kids who went home for the. lockdowns and were in a big household. full of relatives they didn't want to be. stuck with when they wanted to be in. college right they did better in terms. of mental health and the kids who were. isolated and stayed in school right but. we you're argu you're sort of arguing. against therapy but yet saying therapy. in person is better than therapy on Zoom. is that for sure yeah I'm not argu I.

mean I'm not arguing against first of. all adults can see therapist for any. reason and that's totally not only up to. them I think they have the stand to get. they are in a much better position to. possibly benefit from it I I'm concerned. about therapy for kids especially kids. who don't really need it who are a. little bummed out but in any case we. know that Zoom therapy or or text. therapy for the most anxious generation. for the most socially phobic generation. supposedly well that's not.

helpful so the thing that gets me about. therapy that I've always talk the people. that I know that are they're doing it. all the time just I don't know how much. you should be thinking about. yourself I don't I mean is there a is. there is there a certain amount of time. you should allocate to thinking about. yourself and your own feelings and. problems and how much of that is. self-indulgent and how much of that.

feeds that anxiety itself I mean it does. thinking about yourself is the same as. unhappiness in a certain sense right it. is the indistinguishable from anxiety. and depression and if you just think. about think about how our football. coaches motivate a team at halftime what. do they do they focus the team on the. task ahead that's the way to get them. motivated that's the way to help them. complete it yeah okay what they don't. say is Johnson are you still upset about. your parents'.

divorce yeah that's not right that's not. going to help tell me about your. feelings yeah that's not why don't they. do it it's not just because they're. repressed it's because they know that if. you want to get anything done in this. world you need to yes repress your. feelings for a time and focus on the. task but is it even repressing your. feelings or is it just not indulging. those feelings and letting those. feelings be the primary focus I think. it's the same thing I don't mean. permanently I don't mean there isn't a. place for it but when you're into school.

focusing on school focusing on seeing. your friends and and and you know going. to recess or whatever it else it is the. basketball whatever the the activity is. it really good for you as opposed to. sitting around and thinking about doing. social emotional learning and thinking. about the pain you're feeling right now. the emotional pain that's not going to. help you get through your geometry test. yeah well that is one thing that's. fascinating about human beings is that. tasks and difficult Endeavors seem to.

make people happier yeah especially when. you complete them that's right and it. gives you positive reinforcement that. you actually can get through something. difficult and that the end result the. feeling of accomplishment is very. valuable that's right and one of the. hardest most worrisome parts of this. generation is that they have the they. have the lowest sense of efficacy they. have they report an external locus of. control meaning meaning they don't think. they can improve their lives see. Millennials thought they could do. anything right they are the Mark.

Zuckerberg generation and that's why we. had so many Tech Founders in that. generation we're not seeing that with. these young people they don't want to be. in charge they're afraid and they feel. they don't feel up to it I I I talk to. uh there's a friend of mine I um I talk. I call every year on her birthday and. she's a research scientist cell. biologist and uh every year she invites. kids to her lab for an intern ship who. are top kids Med Premed graduates from. college before they go into med school.

and she said to me in the last decade. when I called her this year for her. birthday she said to me I can't believe. you're writing about this generation. they are so different and I said tell me. why she said I'm seeing the smartest. most prepared kids and they're afraid to. run their own experiments they tell me. they're getting ready they're working on. their skills they're not yet up to up to. it and they constantly report to me. about their mental health how they're. feeling today. they can't just take a chance and go. with.

it it's weird cuz as a parent like you. want to hear kids out and when they're. having like some sort of anxiety an. issue you want to talk with them and you. want to talk through it you want to give. you don't want to tell them hey you're. going to have to suck it up I never say. that and I probably should I mean I. don't know if I should but I mean if I. had boys I probably would I think I. would probably treat them differently. but I think.

that there's there there is there's a. there's a fine line like where is the. point of diminishing returns like where. is where is it valuable to address. feelings and anxiety and and thoughts. and is it irresponsible to do so without. giving them tools to mitigate those. things and along with those tools to. explain to them that there's things that. they're going to have to do in this life. that are very difficult but that there's. a great reward in doing these very.

difficult things so the problem I as I. see it is not that you're not saying. suck it up it's that no one ever says. suck it up no matter how minor the. scratch to these kids okay and sometimes. being told you'll live remember when. when dad used to say you'll live or you. know shake it off we never hear Shake It. Off anymore no one says it so they don't. know they can overcome even minor. injuries. and the truth is they. can they can but but they recently did.

these studies on these you know coping. techniques they they taught coping. techniques to um uh teenagers th over a. thousand teenagers in Australia it was. called the wise teens program they. talked to um uh and that was the point. it was just to help them with emotional. regulation and it turned out it made. kids sadurn and more anxious they. measured this and the reason was. regularly ruminating on your bad. feelings can make you feel worse H did. you talk to therapists when you did this.

yeah a lot of therapists yeah how many. of them agree with you so there was a. huge split the academic research. psychologists overwhelmingly agreed they. were aware of the literature and they. said yeah these are bad practices here. are things we shouldn't be doing with. kids what was interesting is a lot of. the clinical therapists were either. either minimized the risks of therapy or. denied that there were any. but isn't that like Jiffy Lube like when. you tell them you don't need to change. your oil that much well it's their.

business to change oil right exactly. exactly so like I talked to this one. amazing uh you know child psychologist. who said to me I start by having my. patients sign a waiver in which they. acknowledge that there can be risks and. the reason I do that is because I don't. want them to experience harm so if they. see that their worries are getting worse. they have to tell me huh but do they. would they I mean it seems like the. therapist is the one who's in control.

right right the therapist is the expert. they're they're the the one who has the. authority right well I mean you know. this one was Camilo Ortiz was one of the. you know he was the one I talked to and. the one that I was referring to there. and um first of all he he always starts. a therapy by setting the number of. sessions it's not he doesn't treat a kid. like an annuity you're going to you know. be my income stream for years. right he attacks and and also they come. to him with an actual problem like.

chronic bed weding like you know various. kinds of phobia um you know there are. people who treat anorexia they're. tackling a problem right and those some. of those therapies are extremely. necessary and very. successful um when this person gets this. person that you were just describing if. they get someone that comes to them that. doesn't have a real problem do they turn. them away well you can ask but very. often therapists don't turn them away. that's the problem right too many. therapists I mean you know I saw you.

know I think back to the first book and. I would ask like was there ever did. anyone have a therapist who said you. know what you I don't think the trans. identity fits you right you know that. doesn't seem to make make sense to me in. almost no cases did the therapist stop a. girl from going down that road no you. don't have gender dysphoria listen it's. mostly little boys okay it's over inly. little starts with little boys and you. see it in men it's overwhelmingly male.

phenomenon and it always starts ages 2. to 4 so you discovering this at age 12. let me tell you something with your. friends it's so unlikely we don't even. need to go there they never said. that well I think they they get scared. of the blowback as well right what they. would hear from their parents you're. telling my child they don't have a. problem when they have a problem well. also the incentive is for therapists to. treat the Le least sick for the longest. period of time that's the incentive yeah. cuz you don't want the schizophrenic.

patient who really needs you right. they're really hard to treat almost. impossible almost impossible right you. don't want the bipolar patient right. some people will refuse to see those. patients but a teenager with a little. social anxiety parent pays on time. they're not getting violent in your. session oh. boy. wow you know I never really considered. that until your book till I heard the. title of your book and I read the. synopsis of it I I never really.

considered it I never considered that. thinking about your problems all the. time and talking about your problems all. the time lit literally make the problems. grow that's right I mean it's the number. one symptom of depression is what they. call rumination this pathological. obsessing over your pain yeah that's why. stuff like exercise that's one of the. reasons aside from chemical reasons one. of the reasons that doing anything you. know that running errands is good for. your mental health getting out of your. house and accomplishing anything yeah is.

good for you but sitting around talking. and thinking about your problems that's. a bad habit and the best cognitive. behavioral therapists and others you. know the dialectical behavioral. therapists the ones who do really well. with depression the first thing they do. is try to break that un that that bad. pattern but a lot of therapists just. indulge it it's also it's a luxury. that's provided to you by a life that. it's fairly safe you know people that. live in war torn countries and have very.

difficult lives they they don't have. that luxury of just sitting around all. day and doing nothing and oh I go. outside and run errands that's going to. make me feel better you're dealing with. like real stress that's right and I. think that there's a expression that. someone told me once and I say it all. the time the worst thing that's ever. happened to you is the worst thing. that's ever happened to you if it's you. got a dent in your car or it's your. parents get killed in a car accident. either one of those things is the worst. thing depending upon the level of.

whatever stress or anxiety or horrible. things that you've experienced in your. life that sort of measure that's your. watermark for what you can and can't. tolerate that's right and what we should. be telling kids is that the Amazing. Story of of human history is of. resilience it used to be the case that. people lost a sibling that was common. people lost a parent that still happens. right these these things still happen.

and the Amazing Story of human history. is that doesn't mean it's not painful. but of resilience they get on they. aren't permanently suffering with mental. illness or mental problem they form. families they they are responsible in. their jobs they show up for work they. can be dependent on by their friends. that's the story of human survival and. resilience and unfortunately we're. telling kids no you've had trauma. yeah yeah you've had trauma and you need. to work through that trauma right it's.

not just this is just a part of life and. you know what you need to do is just go. out there and live your life and you'll. get over it and you know the thing is. the truth is that most kids and most. people did in other words that didn't. mean that Dad didn't lose his job and. they were forced out of the you know. they had to lose their house or these. things happen they've happened in every. family and I I think one of the many. reasons that kids don't know this today. is we've cut them off from extended. family the story of their grandparents.

is a story of resilience in almost every. case right you think you hear about your. family history and you're going to hear. a story of pain and survival and. resilience and overcoming but today. you've got teenagers who say oh I can't. drive past my middle school where I was. bullied because of my. PTSD they don't have. PTSD but they think they do and what. what do they have though if you are. bullied that does have a significant. psychological effect on kids and it can.

lead to lifelong depression I don't know. that it can I mean I think so like for. young people that like get treated like. [ __ ] and and told that they're nothing. and useless and that sort of like when I. I I didn't really get bullied in high. school but I remember going back towards. my high school when I was like 19 and. I'd get anxiety I'd get weirded out by. it you know right so let me just yeah. you start feeling like you used to feel. when you went there absolutely but. that's not a PTSD flashback right what.

is that that's a bad memory and we have. them and by the way when I say you can't. have you know bullying can mean anything. right so when I say you you know I I'm. talking about teasing I'm not talking. about the horrific abuse that some kids. have gone through but do you have. anxiety yeah anxiety exists for a reason. it's actually adaptive and so there are. benefits to anxiety and there are. negative parts of anxiety now I'm not. talking about anxiety disorder we don't. want anyone to have suffer with an. anxiety disorder that interferes with.

daily life but a little anxiety feeling. bad and a bad memory that's not only. part of life but it can have positive. effects so some of the positive effects. of anxiety is it helps with performance. if I weren't nervous for this this right. now I wouldn't have prepared so much to. make sure I remembered what I was going. to talk about right and we don't want. someone with no anxiety crossing a. Street cuz he's not going to look for. cars right and we're going in with. medication and we're deleting things.

like anxiety depression anxiety helps. you make beautiful memories you remember. Christmas morning because of all the. nerves about it ahead of time or you. remember your first kiss partially. because of the anx that's why the. memories are so clear right and when we. go in and we give kids a pill for that. not only are they not devot developing. an emotional musculature they're going. to need as adults but we actually. they're losing a really important part. of The Human Experience like feeling low. because you were dumped and then seeing. you can get over it.

right that's a very important thing what. you just said about experience anxiety. it actually helps you be sharper it does. it really does you have to be nervous. before you do things that's right that. are difficult it's just that. uncomfortable feeling people avoid. because they get scared of the anxiety. but if you talk to like like one of the. best examples is UFC fighters UFC. fighters before they f they're all. nervous they're all scared every one of. them terrified and they don't want to. fight if they're not if if you if you're.

too calm and too relaxed you actually. have bad performances and I'll tell you. something else same is true with. depression now I'm not talking about. major depressive disorder that's chronic. and needs treatment of course right but. a little if you have something bad. happen to you you go through a divorce. you go through something hard okay that. doesn't mean you should never try you. know use meds or or or therapy if you. absolutely need it but there can be good. and here's what can be good okay. depression is adaptive okay and the. purpose I learned this from talking to. interviewing a lot of evolutionary.

psychologists and one of the good things. about depression is it shuts us down so. we don't do anything rash and we think. about what change we might want to make. in our life because sometimes we need to. make a change and if we just medicate. away the bad feelings the worst feelings. might be dampened but we also might be. locked into that low State and never. make the change we need to make right. H cuz we'll lose the motivation that's. the thing we won't say you know what he.

treated me badly I'm tired of this I'm. not getting back together with him right. we might just accept it and keep on. right especially if you're medicated. especially if you're medicated that will. to make a big change often happens after. we've been brought. low yeah it's interesting because these. this conversation is such a blanket. conversation and when you're talking. about people's personal experiences. their personal depression and Trauma. people are always very quick to sort.

of. in accentuate the negative aspects of. whatever they've gone through no no no. you're talking about but mine was worse. but mine was this mine was mine was. unbearable mine was the and I think. that's something that our society for. whatever reason encourages that's right. and there's this um so one of the. psychiatrists I interview was this man. Paul McHugh who used to be the head of. the John's Hopkins um Psychiatry. department and he looked at vets combat.

vets in um uh America and Israel and. what he wanted to know was why was there. less PTSD among the combat vets in. Israel and one of the things he noticed. was that they treat them very. differently when a when when an Israeli. soldier saw something traumatic a. traumatic potentially traumatic event. maybe an IED exploding or something. their buddies torn apart or killed. killed they took them out of battle they. said you're listen you're just so you. know your reaction is totally normal.

you're going to we're sending you home. for a few weeks you're going to get feel. better and then we're going to put you. right back but you're going to recover. we're going to put you right back with. your men and with America when someone. had seen something horrific they would. pull them out of battle they would meet. with a therapist who would tell them. youve you have the symptoms of PTSD here. is PTSD your government did this to you. and you may be it's possible you may be. suffering with. chronically and they didn't recover at. the same rates H so it's a get back on.

the horse type thing yeah it is which. doesn't minimize what people you know. all the traumatic things I mean some. people will have harder time getting. back on the horse they may need more. treatment than other people but what's. amazing is most people even who go. through traumatic experiences even most. combat vets the majority don't get. PTSD because Act. the story of human history the story of. our experience is of resilience and if. we just think back to our grandparents.

we know this is true we can't guarantee. for our kids that they won't go through. hard things in fact the one certainty is. that they will but the message to them. has to be but you're so strong our. family is strong our family has gone. through hard things I've gone through. hard things and you can too and if you. say that to kids you have a much better. shot that they will how do we know that. the majority of combat vets don't. experience. PTSD um because they oh there's this. crazy study so um they look through um.

this is just one example uh Vietnam Vets. they know what percentage uh saw combat. it was something like 12 to 15% actually. saw combat but for whatever reason when. they surveyed Vietnam Vets 30% of them. were reporting. PTSD that's iatrogenesis that means that. the they've been hearing about the. symptoms of PTS P SD they were thinking. about their their friends who've had. PTSD and more people were coming to. believe they had PTSD than actually.

could have had it but you're still. talking about a small percentage of. people who go through some really hard. things in combat um something like you. know at 70 to 80% no matter how many. traumatic experiences they've seen you. know four tours in Iraq they still for. whatever reason don't have the. symptoms yeah I've talked to uh friends. of mine that are veterans about this and. um one of the things they said is that. one my friend who was a seal said.

that special forces guys experience it. less although they do experience it. because they're proactive they're acting. they're doing something they're moving. whereas he said the real people that. experience it are sometimes people that. are stuck on a base and they're always. worried about being attacked oh wow I. love that yeah the the the fear of. constantly being worried that you're. going to be attacked versus the fear of. going out on a mission that's exactly. having a deployment going out there and.

and engaging the enemy that they're. they're task oriented and that they're. the ones in control that's right and. what we want to say to kids is be a Navy. SEAL go out there and attack those tasks. whatever they are make a new friend go. play a sport go do things don't sit. around thinking about yourself well it's. also there's a write a passage that goes. with being a Navy SEAL it's a very. difficult thing to acquire most people. quit that's the ring the bell thing you. know they they they they bail they can't. take the stress of it because they put.

you through hell and they put you. through hell to find out who's resilient. and who's not right and to show you that. you could do it but we're not even. teaching kids to Aspire to that anymore. no there's a lot of ways to be a Navy. SEAL I mean some as the official being a. Navy SEAL an actual Navy SEAL but. there's so many ways to be strong and. make a difference in the world and do. things and that message that your friend. mentioned that's a good mess message for. kids it's not what we're telling them. right it's also in to speak to him and.

his situation he said that they're. trying to lower the standards they're. saying that you know because. occasionally guys will die or get. severely injured in training that. they're trying to make it more easy. that's right and he's like that's. terrifying you the last thing you want. is someone who can't quite make it on. your team yeah that's right and we're. lowering the standards and expectations. I mean this is the trauma generation. right we've told them over and over you. can't handle very much don't worry I'm. going to write you and they have these.

things in schools called anytime passes. where if a kid's feeling a little. anxious they'll get a PA pass from the. school counselor and they're allowed to. um leave class any time they're feeling. anxious well how's a kid going to sit. through anything if they've been given. this past to leave class any any class. they don't like right right I would I. would used that constantly anybody would. anybody would and teachers tell me it's. getting abused like crazy of course yeah. you know they're not keeping the. standards for kids high and you know. what kids who've gone through hard.

things and there are those kids they. need high standards they need. expectations and they need to be told. you can do it I there's this one woman I. talked to um she was raising three kids. out of foster care with her wife okay. and these kids had gone through horrible. traumatic experiences I mean so bad so. abused by their birth parents that the. detective who took them from their home. cried on the St and talking about what. they had Liv through and she said to me. you know my kids I have therapists who.

are dealing with them they're in a lot. of serious th they've been through a lot. and I can't the one of the hardest. things in my life is that they I have to. send them to public school where. teachers and C counselors are constantly. playing amateur therapists asking my. kids to open up about their trauma I'm. trying to get them with actual. professionals that I have picked to get. through the day and not think about the. hard things they went through and all. these teachers are just asking them. about their trauma all day long it's not.

helping that's a very specific case. though right well yeah but I I guess the. point is it doesn't help the kids who. live through serious trauma and it. doesn't help the kids who are just fine. so who are we helping so is the problem. that these people that are teachers. they're well- intended they just don't. understand that dwelling on this and. talking about it constantly is not. beneficial. in fact it would just be moreal to be. friendly to that and kind Ander. encouragement give him activities and.

give them encouragement and support. that's right most people who work with. kids care about kids I have that. prejudice I assume and I think it's true. that most people who work with kids want. to do what's best for kids but sometimes. they do things that aren't best for kids. and having them focus on their feelings. all the time is not best for kids that's. the way to make you more emotionally. disregulated it's this is going to be. very difficult for people to hear that. are uh very sensitive and very concerned. about their children they're they they.

their strategy has always been to move. it in this general direction also people. that are experiencing a lot of anxiety. and depression themselves who are. raising children they you know they I. think they become accustomed to talking. about it and dwelling on it that's right. and in fact the some of the most. effective ways to treat childhood. anxiety is by treating the parents oh. boy parents are a huge source of anxiety. for kids and what's the primary source.

of anxiety that comes from parents worry. over everything yeah teaching kids they. have to be afraid of everything that. they can never do anything without the. parent supervision they could never go. anywhere where their parents won't see. them because they could be adct abducted. or hurt or abused calling the teacher. and saying my daughter was bullied. because someone said something mean to. her the child gets the message I can't. handle something mean mean said to me I. will fall apart that's what my mom's. saying she's so scared I'm going to fall. apart she's calling my teacher yeah.

there's also the other the the opposite. of that too where if you grow up with a. parent that's very weak you you get you. despise that and you become strong. because of that like if you grew up I. have a friend whose uh mom was a severe. alcoholic and because of that he became. very disciplined and cuz he realized. like if you let something like that. control your life. he saw what happened to his mother and. he's like that's never happening to me. wow and that's a really strong person as. a result and part of his strength I.

which I'm sure is having that real life. experience which was hard and it was. painful and it taught him a lesson that. no you know teacher could give him which. is that you need discipline in life. right but it's it's very difficult to. learn from a bad example sometimes. especially if your parents constantly. worrying and constantly negative about. things right yeah right but you know. what we do we let kids try we give them. freedom from our oversight you know what. they do in Japan in [ __ ] Japanese.

preschools they have these little areas. they're designed to have areas for kids. that where the teachers can't see so. that they work out their own problems. remember we used to say to kids work it. out now the teachers get involved in. every squabble they think it's their job. to go in there and give kids tips on how. to make friends and get involved we. never tell kids look work it out yeah. and you know what they learn from. working it out I can I don't need my Mom. calling my boss as a lot of this.

generation's parents are doing right. I'll handle it I can I've been doing it. since preschool. right huh how what has the reaction to. this book been have you had some. negative reaction have you had anybody. that wants to debate you on this it's a. good question overwhelming at Le it's. actually been surprisingly positive but. you want to know the truth the dads. especially love the book really the dads. will be like can you give this to my. wife I mean sometimes they'll say that. to me because I think you know the.

biggest change in the last generation in. parenting aside from the role of therapy. sort of taking over is and and I think. therapeutic parenting take it over. everybody's trying to be a mental health. expert with their kids but I think the. biggest change was dad's dad stopped you. know I think uh being a sort of a back. stop and saying he's fine he'll handle. it I did it he can do it or I did it she. can do it she's fine Shake It Off go. back to the you know keep playing soccer. whatever it is they they stopped doing.

that in part because they didn't feel. like we were told I mean in general. we've all been told right the mental. health experts tell you how to talk to. your children they tell you what your. child can handle they pretend they're. experts on the brain when the truth is. and I've interviewed a lot of. neurobiologists and you know academic. psychologists and psychiatrist and they. will tell you we know very little about. the the brain and a lot of these. therapists don't know anything about the. brain we certainly don't know much about. emotion in the brain right and so the.

idea that we need brain science in order. to raise our kids is just not true and. it's not helpful it's undercutting. parents confidence parents need to trust. themselves we've been raising good kids. for a long. time are there any studies about the. cultures or the civilizations what. whatever countries that have the most. mentally healthy people oh that's a good. question so I interviewed one woman who.

runs the Georgetown emotions lab and. she's a cultural psychologist Bo the. emotions lab heavy it was actually. really neat I went into her lab and we. did these she showed me these tests she. does with subjects behind a one-way. mirror and she hooks them up to. electrodes and and um she looks at her. name is Julia chova Dutton she's amazing. and she looks at um Russia Japan. um America and other countries. especially in the west so I guess you. want to look at like and compar like to.

like so sort of similar Western cultures. you know I guess Asian but um you know. similar levels of development and St a. certain kind of stras and one of the. things she noticed in in her research. was that American Kids tended to. exaggerate. dangers so they when they listed things. they were afraid of or things that. scared them they would say stranger at. me funny things that weren't actual. dangers but R but but teenagers from.

other countries Russia you know um Japan. they tended to be able to calibrate what. was an actual danger much better and. that's what we're seeing on campus we're. seeing these kids having nervous. breakdowns because someone dumped them. or because a teacher F gave them a bad. grade yeah because they didn't couldn't. hand her a paper in on time one of the. things that drives me the most nuts. about universities is this term. microaggression. right which is so crazy it's like. looking for things to be bigger than. they are taking a very small thing.

whether it's someone like rowing their. eyes at you or or saying something that. you know might be. insensitive and calling that insensitive. thing a microaggression that's right and. it's exactly right and one of the things. I looked at was are we turning these. kids into emotional hypochondriacs and. what I mean is I interviewed a world. expert this man Arthur bar at Harvard. Medical School on hypochondriasis being. hypochondriac what they they now call it. illness anxiety disorder or somatic.

symptom disorder and what is it so it. turns out what it is is people who put. hyperfocus on the normal pains we all. feel they're not faking it they're just. attending to the normal pains and and. and increasing their Pain by doing that. and people who turn their pain into an. organizing principle of Life of their. whole lives they have a hard time. overcoming it becomes their identity it. becomes their identity and that's what. kids are doing today about their. emotional pain oh I have social anxiety.

I had trauma for my breakup you don't. have Trauma from your breakup okay you. you had a breakup and it's. painful but but using these you know. psychiatric terms trauma it's not. helping it's not it's exaggerating the. pain and it's making that pain feel. worse and I'm not minimizing these kids. pain they are re they are in real pain. and they're making it worse I would be. really fascinated to see you have a. conversation with someone who is a.

therapist who engages in this who thinks. it's. beneficial I would love I mean I'd be. happy to I would love to I mean I would. like to see you know look there are. therapists that I've met who I I I would. take my own kids to who I try who I've. you know very impressed by what they. have to say and what they've done but. the therapists who claim that everyone. needs to talk about their problems will. know they they don't that's not true I. interviewed a lot of great therapists. who tell me that a lot of people who. have experienced terrible trauma they do.

better by not talking about it they are. therapist who deal with and I'm talking. about people who work with conicts. people who have unspeakable childhood. abuse actually are very helped by. acknowledging I know you went through. some some hard stuff let's talk about. you know what you're doing now that. turns out to be better for some people. so this endless rehashing of your pain. this myth that you can only be helped by. talking about your pain it's just not. true there's no evidence behind it and. in fact you know there's these crazy. studies that um burn victims um people.

who've experienced all kinds of First. Responders uh breast cancer survivors. have been made to feel worse by talking. about it by being therapy in therapy. they had control groups they've done. these studies where where burn victims. one portion of them went to group. therapy the other portion didn't and the. ones who didn't go to therapy ended up. better with less symptoms after you know. 9 months I think it was and why do you.

think that is because they did other. things that are healing too like spend. more time with family like get involved. in work like you know pick up a phone. and call a friend you haven't seen in a. while find a natural way to mitigate. that exercise is amazing I mean they. study after study has shown that. exercise is amazing and you know what it. doesn't have all these bad side effects. right of of sex drive like ssris have. yeah right we know that the. anti-depressants come with all these. horrible side effects especially for. adolescence like the risk of suicide and.

other things right you know what doesn't. have that exercise yeah so I'm not. saying don't get help and if you really. need it get get the medicine and get the. therapy what I'm saying is if you don't. really need it gosh there's a lot of. ways to feel better and we seem to have. forgotten about those is there a chart. or graph that shows the the amount of. therapy that was given to Children over. the years now versus the past so we know.

that it's gone way up I don't know if. there's a chart but I know that they say. 40% roughly 40% of the rising generation. has had therapy that's a lot it's way. more than any prior generation 42% of. them have a mental health diagnosis. that's a lot 42% of kids have a mental. health diagnosis do you know 42 there. was just a news article saying that 86%. of them think they have menu anxiety. menu anxiety that's ordering from a a. menu in a restaurant what they have a. friend order for them oh my God yeah I.

mean these are kids who think of. themselves as. unwell menu anxiety really that's a. thing I don't you know I mean climate. anxiety summer. anxiety this when your parents move. dislocation. depression they call it summer anxiety. summer anxiety so here it is 42% of gen. Z diagnosed with a mental health. condition geez Louise that's a lot. that's crazy right but is that's what my.

question would be was like what is that. internationally like when you're dealing. with other countries it's much better. internationally I mean there's no. question we we have the most anxious and. most depressed uh teens and. adolescents and what caused that is that. the rise of this indust IND the rise of. the therapy industry is it something. that is in the. Zeitgeist where people in this culture.

sort of gravitate towards that sort of. thinking that therapy and talking it. through is very important like what is. it I think we're not giving them a. healthy life and that includes it's like. remember they used to give us with sugar. cereals they used to say like the. there'd be a bowl of sugar cereal and. there'd be like eggs and toast and. orange juice and they would say Frosted. Flakes part of nutritious breakfast. right right and we knew it was bad for. us but we had these other healthy things. around us I don't think we knew it was. bad for us when I was a kid Frosty.

flakes I never thought it was bad for. really well we didn't know sugar was bad. for you well in my I mean we knew we. thought i''d give you cavities that was. the the only thing anybody worried about. I mean kids weren't allow I mean at. least in my house we weren't allowed to. have Su a little older than you I'm 10. years old than you okay so we weren't. allowed to have sugar cereal and the. best thing we ever got was Honey Nut. Cheerios that was like a miracle when. that came in it was so exciting we used. to put sugar on our Frosted Flakes you. were allowed to have sugar and put sugar. on everything love that yeah we people.

when in my generation people ate sugar. all the time and there was no fear it. was just brush your teeth I know it's. it's psychotic but you know all. obviously you know the story behind that. that was all because of the sugar. industry bribing scientists to pass the. blame on saturated fat yeah because. sugar was causing heart disease it was. causing all sorts of problems that. people were having was causing obesity. and the sugar industry bribed some.

scientists in the 1960s to pass the. blame onto saturated fat and that's. where margarine came from and all that. other stupid [ __ ] it's terrible for you. right seed oils all these different. things canola oil that people thought. was actually better for you right it's. not it's not better for you at all your. body doesn't even know how to digest. that [ __ ] right so we've given kids. worst diet over the years we've given. them um you know yeah we've given them. less exercise we've given them less. connection to family people relational.

stability having these this set of. friends or or relatives who are around. cousins around you grandparents who love. you unconditionally over your life kids. don't have that anymore they don't have. the neighborhood MH and they don't have. they don't have space for Mom monitoring. them or another adult she's hired to to. monitor them or the recess monitor or my. kids have bus monitors they have. monitors everywhere and monitoring is.

the same as stress for kids in Psych. academic wonderful academic psychologist. Peter gray told me this that when they. want to introduce stress to a subject. they introduce monitoring because it's. the same thing really so if they have a. subject and then they're going through a. test and they have someone stand over. and watch that introduces anxiety. that'll introduce stress yeah. yeah and that's the condition we're. raising kids in we're going to track you. on your phone even in college oh how is.

it how is your trip to the Right Aid I. can see on my phone they we're doing. that yeah kids are doing it to each. other kids are doing it to each other. yeah my daughters all our friends know. where everyone is right on snapmap right. it's not good for them they don't have. freedom to just be yeah so I think we're. giving all all kinds of things we're. making their lives less healthy and then. we just pour pour in the Mental Health. Resources oh we're going to keep your. life unhealthy but we're going to pour. in ssris anti-depressants we're just. going to pour in the therapy well that.

doesn't. remediate have you had anybody push back. on this like you said the the response. been overwhelmingly positive but what. has the negative response been so I. think that um some parents feel like you. know some as it seems to be mostly moms. but some of them feel insecure like well. you don't know you know my my kid really. had sensory deprivation issues so I. really did need to see that therapist. but I don't know the situation I mean I.

think in general parents know their own. kids right and if they have tried other. things the problem is not parents. seeking out help the problem is it's. when it's the first. Resort the problem is not that parents. ever allow their kid to get a diagnosis. the problem is that some parents are. going diagn diagnosis shopping. because the kid there sometimes a neuros. psychologist will say your kids sorry. they're within normal range and the. parents will keep. going and they're doing it because they.

haven't they don't have you know. sometimes they don't they're unwilling. to be in Authority in their home maybe. because they feel that that's. traumatizing they're unwilling to impose. any kind of discipline the kid is. disordered the kid has a lot of tech and. then lo and behold he can't concentrate. in school and they're sure and the. teacher has a problem with him well I. talked to parents where they said one. year my teacher thought I my kid had. ADHD and the next year they. didn't why would that be and why is the.

teacher diagnosing the kid yeah are they. qualified are they qualified well. they're a little conflicted right yeah. because they have an interest in getting. you bolted to your seat right they don't. care about the long-term effects of or. they don't they might not be aware of. them the long-term effects of strota. canera you know Ridin yeah the fact that. you might need to take more and more of. it over time to get the same effects the. withdrawal for some of these things. Aderall people have told me it's brutal. yeah it's brutal well some feta beans.

right and they're highly addictive and. we're giving them out like candy like. candy that's the problem it's the like. candy part there was the a recent study. that said 39 million what is the number. of prescriptions per year of Aderall. it's something Bonkers when you really. know what Aderall is and essentially. this is like what they were doing in the. 1940s with crystal meth in Germany they.

were they're giving it to soldiers. they're giving it to people they're. giving them methamphetamines because. methamphetamines make you more alert. makes you more hyperfocused makes you. more productive makes you more willing. to engage in things and it's it's an. unnatural stimulant that you're adding. to someone's mind and you're getting a. result and you re you perceive those. results to be positive because they fit. along with what we're looking for in. terms of outcomes right but you're not.

thinking of the long-term consequences. of ramping up someone on [ __ ]. amphetamines all day long what's the. number years okay even worse. 41.4 million Aderall prescriptions wow. were dispens in the US in 2021 up more. than 10% from 2020 according to iqv a a. health research firm what's happening. getting a diagnosis of attention def. deficit hyperactivity disorder or ADHD.

which can be treated by adderal and. other stimulants got significantly. easier during the pandemic a wave of. tele medicine startups hit Tik Tok and. Instagram with advertisements suggesting. that people who look into ADHD. medication if they felt distracted by. the way that would have been me if this. [ __ ] was around when I was a kid i'. never paid attention in school and I. would have probably thought that I had a. disease some startups diagnose people. with ADHD and prescribe stimulant after. 30 minute video calls entirely remotely.

and much faster than a typical diagnosis. from an in-person psychiatrist The Wall. Street Journal reports yes but the. trouble with such rapid diagnosis is. that it can be difficult to tell whether. ADHD is actually the problem anxiety can. present as ADHD and depression can. present as ADHD a Sanford Newark uh said. Sanford Newark at Professor University. of California San Francisco Medical. School of course I mean look if you give. someone stimulant they're going to feel. better that's why people do Coke right.

you know it makes you feel better and. what if you start them on it when. they're four or five and guess what. there are a lot of jobs where ADHD might. not harm them in other words it might. even be an asset it's a superpower I. think it can be I mean you know there's. this there's an amazing piece in the. Wall Street Journal by a guy who argued. that in the military inventure Capital. where you have have to have you're. constantly checking you know other. companies or constantly looking into. being able someone who's constantly. shifting their focus turned out to be an. asset.

unmedicated well I think that the idea. is that it came from hunter gatherer. tribes oh interesting yeah what is see. if you could find that that ADHD that. the the trait emanated from hunter. gatherers the thing is like a lot of. ADHD people if they find a thing that. they really enjoy they get very focused. on it right which is what was the thing. with me exactly I thought that because I.

couldn't pay attention in school that I. was going to be a loser a recent review. of The Evidence by Child and adoles. Adolescent psychiatrists uh Annie swamp. pole swam Swan pole how do you say that. I don't know uh and colleagues made the. case for the latter the they argue that. ADHD traits likely evolved in early. human en environments that rewarded. exploration novelty seeking and movement. such as nomadic and migrating. communities yeah it's probably how you.

stayed alive and if you you strapped. down doing something really [ __ ]. boring that seems completely unnatural. which is part of the problem with. children in the first place we're. subjecting them to eight hours a day of. doing something you don't want to do. because they say it's for your mental. development and what they're essentially. doing is teaching you how to do. something that you [ __ ] hate so that. you will be able to do that for the rest. of your life right and you know what. they could do with those kids give them. longer recess well they also could tell.

them that there's other things you could. do for a living if you could find the. thing that you actually enjoy and focus. on that and that was the thing that I I. didn't know until I started doing things. outside of school I didn't know that. there was things that I could excel at. because I actually enjoyed them and I. would focus on those things and get very. good at them and I didn't didn't know. that that was a part of me I didn't I. had never been told that everybody was. just like if you can't do this you going. to be a loser if you can't sit and pay.

attention to this boring ass teacher. teach this boring ass thing if they have. no emotional investment in whatsoever. right and it was never true that's the. thing you were incredibly successful. despite what they said but imagine if. they had said to you actually there's. something wrong with your brain it's. called ADHD you need a pill so you can. be like everybody else would you have. had the same motivation to go keep. looking for what you were good at and. what you were passionate about no I. probably wouldn't have I probably would. have been medicated if I had the wrong.

parents at the wrong time in history I. probably would have been medicated right. and who knows I probably would have some. [ __ ] horrible job where I was I. couldn't wait to get to my my Pharmacy. so I could refill my prescription cuz. I'm running low and I talk the doctor to. ramping up my Aderall we're we're. putting seven-year-olds on Lexa Pro so. that's crazy that is so crazy FDA just. approved it for seven-year-olds these. are kids who are going to have their sex. drive deleted before they ever have a. sex drive so when they reach the.

teenagers because kids do not go off. them they put them on antidepressants. and they put them on more they'll never. have had a sex drive they won't even. know what they're missing and that's the. problem the problem is not and I'm not. saying no medication for anyone ever. what I'm saying is when you get in there. and change a kid you put a kid in an. emotional SN suit not only will they. never have the feeling I overcame that. on my own I thought I had HD but I'm so. excited about this other thing I got. into not not only will they'll never.

know they they could get through a. breakup without a pill right because. they've never done it isn't that the. sort of the problem with the diagnosis. of depression in the first place because. one of the things they never ask is. how's your life it's always you you have. depression you have a clinical issue you. have a disease you have a thing called. depression it's not your fault it's not. you have a terrible. life your your job sucks your apartment. sucks your neighborhood sucks your. friends suck your family sucks you don't. have any Joy that's exactly right which.

will make you deed right and by the way. of course the best psychologists would. point that would point out those things. and here's the most important if you. start such a person on an SSRI meaning. they're feeling depressed because of. their circumstances they might be less. likely to make the important change they. could make yeah because it takes an. acute problem and it turns it into a. chronic one but it's also very. profitable and that's the problem that's. the really difficult thing in getting. these out of our lives and despite the.

fact that as time goes on we find out. that the research on the the efficacy of. ssris is Dub is at best it's it's not. good like right it depresses all emotion. so does it treat depression I don't know. it seems to depress all kinds of things. maybe you know also um you know. depending on the drug some depress. anxiety but they depress everything so. but I do I I do have to say that I've. had friends that were suicidal that got. on ssris and then because they felt.

better improved their life and then. weaned off of those drugs I think that. there's a place for these drugs. absolutely and by the way trying to get. off of them if you can is a good program. in other words not saying I'm going to. be on it forever right but in a kid. right they won't even know what life was. like what it was supposed to be like. without it they'll never know what they. could handle and so they will show up. for college and say I've had trauma. because of a breakup I have PTSD because.

of my breakup and they'll believe it. they won't know any better because they. never went through that heartache on. their own and psychiatrists are. incentivized to prescribe these things. yeah but you know who else is. prescribing them you know regular. Physicians who aren't experts in these. drugs so regular. prescriptions Physicians are allowed to. prescribe pediatricians are a huge. source of SSRI and they not even. psychiatrists no so it's very easy for. according to psychiatrists I spoke to. they feel that pediatricians are giving.

out these drugs way way too easily that. seems crazy so a pediatrician has to. look at legitimate. problems all sorts of issues that a. child might have medically and then on. top of that psychiatric disorders and. then prescribe medication for those. psychiatric disorders pedi pediatricians. are usually the ones who give you the. ADHD medication that seems. insane is that insane I mean am I being. judgmental I think it like malpractice.

because they're not they're doing it. more easily than they should they're I I. think too many of them are not. appreciating I'm going to go in there. and mess with this kid change this kid. before I do it I better make sure this. is urgent and there's nothing else we. can do to improve the life just like you. said improve the life and see if we can. get there without it. and then there's also the problem the. parents want to fix yeah and if the. parents believe the narrative that these. medications are beneficial and they.

believe that this is what this stuff is. for and that this pediatrician wouldn't. be prescribing this if they didn't know. what they were doing we went to an. expert the expert has an opinion let's. listen to the expert let's get little. Johnny on pills now Little Johnny's. doing better he just sits in front of. the TV with a [ __ ] Blank Stare on his. face right I mean parents aren't. exercising their Authority and they're. not trusting themselves they're feeling. like oh this is above my pay grade the. second the kid isn't what the teacher. wants they're sure they need an expert. involved where and they never asked.

their own parents who raised kids to. adulthood right you know my take is if. you want to talk about a parenting. expert to me a parenting expert is. someone who raised successful people to. adulthood meaning people who are you. know good stable adults who are. productive who can be dependent on by. others right but you might not have. access to those why you don't I didn't. have access to those when I was a child. I didn't have access to people that had. raised successful stable when you were a. child yeah I didn't even look I know a.

lot of people today that had terrible. parents right and they had terrible. grandparents and they they never had an. example of someone who raised good. children they had the occasional child. that was exceptional that made its way. out of that [ __ ] up Maze and usually. became hyper successful but the other. sibling often times are a mess and. sometimes the parents want to take. credit for the hyper successful sibling. you know like oh I I showed you the way.

like no you didn't do [ __ ] you know like. that kid figured it out on their own. without having anybody as a positive. role model or example but I think that. if they were successful there were. certain Su good things in their life. meaning they weren't on the couch they. weren't the 54% of gen Z who doesn't. want to live with anyone but Mom. the these are 18 to 25y olds sorry 54%. of them are living with parents well. that's that old expression right the. healthy bird leaves the nest right yeah.

right there was something healthy there. was some healthy message or example that. taught at least made the kid think I can. yeah and the kids today are thinking I. can't I need to be with Mom and Dad even. at 18 to 25 yeah because it offers you. comfort right yeah but then there's. other cultures where people are happy. and the family is a very tight unit and. people don't leave the house until. they're married right that's not our. culture so in those cultures I think. it's a different situation and it is.

healthier meaning they have their own. ways of doing things and you know they. get a job and they don't get they don't. leave the home until they're married and. that is that is the way they Define. growing up but in this culture we have. always defined growing up is leaving. your parents' home getting some sort of. job supporting yourself in some way. making strong you know enduring. relationships with others starting a. family we have a vision in this culture. and we are not producing that H which.

one's right which culture is correct. though is the culture that that enforces. family and and they have this very tight. Bond and they don't leave until they're. establishing their own family and then. they that family stays in connection. with the other family is that the way to. do it or is the way we do it where we. cast the out so I I tend to think that. you know they have a version of. adulthood in their culture it's just. defined differently and those are people. you can rely on they do become adults in.

other cultures depends who you're. talking about but but in cultures like. India where families you know live with. you know in the same home with extended. family and as soon as you marry you go. and live with the mom and dad they know. how to do that so that the young people. who are raising the family are you know. absolutely Dependable independent adults. right they're not sitting home playing. Xbox while they're living with their. parents right they're not that's the. difference that's the difference it's a. healthy ver it's different from ours but.

it is healthy and you can rely on those. people they are raising children they. are like being good neighbors right we. got we got a generation who's sitting at. home and doesn't want to show up for. work yeah because they think they have. mental health issues I have to attend to. my mental health I can't Trump was just. elected I need to need a mental health. day yeah emotionally fragile yeah it's a. problem right yeah what what's going on.

like it doesn't matter who's President. get to work yeah. codling yeah um boy what a complicated. thing and it's so complicated if you're. a parent if you're dealing with this. medical establishment that's so quick to. prescribe drugs and you're dealing with. this world where therapy is so. ubiquitous and you're dealing with this. world where people think that the way to. handle things is to constantly discuss. all these small problems and so that. people can be heard you know we want.

people to be heard I I don't know if. you've ever seen there's a hilarious. video of this uh socialist. meeting and um they they're they're. calling each other comrades and one have. you seen this video it's it's a. wonderful video cuz one person um says. uh could everyone please stop making as. much noise because uh I'm easily. distracted I forget the term that they. use and then could you guys please do.

that just recognize that there's others. around here us that are this is it. listen this this is amazing win. socialism thank you so much uh quick. point of privilege quick point of. personal privilege um guys uh first of. all James Jackson Sacramento he him I. just want to say can we please keep the. chatter to a minimum I'm one of the. people who's very very prone to sensory. overload there's a lot of whispering and. chatter going on it's making it very. difficult for me to focus please can we. just I know it's we're all fresh and. ready to go but can we please just keep.

the chatter to a minimum it's affecting. my ability to focus thank you thank you. comrade right comrad speaker against. name chap priv point of personal. privilege yes please do not use gendered. language to to address. everyone it goes on further this that's. just a clip of it but that's what you're. dealing with right like and if you're. going to a university and this is a part. of the environment this is the culture. that you are existing in it can't help.

but have some sort of an effect on you. especially if you're young and. impressionable and naive and you don't. understand these people are mentally ill. like that is that is a mentally crippled. person that point of privilege like the. good luck good luck out there in the. world you [ __ ] right good luck but I'll. tell tell you this at you know all these. things there are things to be negative. about or pessimistic about in society. not this because you know what honestly. parents have AB an absolute ability to.

turn this around we don't need to let. our kids down this way and tell them you. need to silence an entire room because. of your sensory discomfort we're going. to focus on your sensory issues and. we're going to tell an entire room of. people to be quiet for you no I I tell. the this thing happened to me that I. thought like I was on a plane and I was. seated behind these this family of four. okay there were two little girls and one. starts to scream and I mean scream like. like it was painful to listen to and I.

hear the Father Tell her honey what's. wrong are you what what did your sister. do and she's screaming okay it is so. loud it's so late at night and okay well. let let me just see what I can do all. right well don't be upset he never once. said to her you know there are other. people people on this. plane and when I ask people from other. countries I talk to the emotions expert. who does crosscultural research I said. what would they say in other countries. about that and she said to me they would.

say that's. bananas they would not believe in Japan. that you do not tell your kid you know. there are other people on this plane not. just you we're part of a society we have. to care about others it the world isn't. just you and your feelings and that's a. message parents can absolutely give to. kids they don't have to say oh let me. attend to your every discomfort they can. say I know you're feeling a little. discomfort we're in a room with a lot of.

other people we need to think about them. so but you're also you're dealing with. emotionally CH challenged. parents parents could relay that message. to children and tell them hey you're not. the only person on this plane and you. are ruining this flight this experience. for a lot of people that are trying to. sleep and trying to relax you are. causing Dam damage you're you're you're. causing a problem these parents are. [ __ ] up too you're not going to just. fix them by having them fix their kid.

which is part of the problem is that. there's no real test to see if you're a. emotionally stable enough to have. children you just have children I don't. think those parents are necessarily. emotionally unstable I tend to think. they've just got it all wrong they think. the old school parenting is unloving and. cruel and the most gentle parenting will. produce the most gentle children it's. not true but they think if I always ask. a child how are you feeling and attend. to herever feeling I'm going to make.

stronger happier Kinder kids no you're. not you're going to raise a child who. thinks she can scream or thinks she can. March into a room and silence the entire. room based on her. preference they aren't liberated to. trust their own instincts and what they. have seen work for. others and and you know what the. examples are all around you if you look. there are people who are good people and. you can ask them by the way immigrants. because they don't go for this nonsense. usually you can ask them what what was. it like in the old country or what was.

it like where you came from what are you. doing and they they call this the have. you ever seen this the Latino Paradox. they call this in in the psychology why. are Latinos why do they have better. mental health when they come to this. country when they are immigrants before. they assimilate and the more they. acculturate to American culture the. worse their mental health gets why. and part of the reason is they have so. social stability in their relational. they are surrounded by extended family. which also means people are saying the.

wrong things to them they're saying. insulting things they're making. inappropriate jokes they're giving them. Foods mom doesn't approve of and they're. surviving at all and they know they can. the reality of hard work is inescapable. that's right they're not afraid of. authority parents parents are in charge. they will give their kids chores and. hard work they will teach them you know. what mom's working two jobs I'm not. going to bother her with my trivial. problem but that liberates the kid to. realize hey my problem is kind of. trivial there are bigger problems right. we're doing the opposite in this country.

we're telling kids this the small. problem you have is so big I'm going to. stop everything to focus on it right but. if you're dealing with these parents. that are emotionally challenged. themselves like how are you going to fix. them because it's not just the child. it's not just them raising the child in. a certain way them realizing the harm. that they're doing to their child and. the fact that their own view of the. world is [ __ ] up well I mean that's. why I wrote the book right I'm trying to. get the message out that actually the.

best psychological research and there is. good psychological research shows that. the things we're doing with kids are not. helping they're. counterproductive and there's a lot of. research that shows that that the old. way of doing things which is don't take. a pill if you don't need it don't go to. a therapist if you don't need it you. have a problem talk to a friend friend. talk to an aunt talk to someone who. loves you yeah and really cares how you. turn. out yeah if you you can go to religious. you know a priest but go to a therapist.

if you really need it but don't do it. casually I mean I talked to moms who did. it because a pet. died or they did it prophylactically. before the kids had any problems they. said I wanted my my my teenager to know. she had someone who was on retainer to. talk to in case she had a problem not. having any sense that that therapist. could also introduce worries and then. there's also probably the issue of the. child going to the therapist and. enjoying the fact that the entire. conversation revolves around them sure.

of course wouldn't you I mean and and. they get to rise above it all they get. to evaluate the job the parents are. doing they get to casually pass judgment. on the you know how whether the parents. are doing they they might not have any. kids themselves right but they have no. problem passing judgment on the job that. the parents doing to the the child and. by the way alienation and I interviewed. an expert in Parental alienation who is. a psychologist and a Coleman was his. last name I think first name Jules. Coleman or no no sorry Coleman first.

name was I'm blanking on his first name. and but he said to me one of the things. he said to me was that um uh that. alienation very often we're seeing very. high rates of Parental alienation in. this generation very often the story is. the therapist the therapist made the. relationship with the parents worse. this is a heavy book Joshua Coleman that. was his name sorry this is a heavy book. I I hope not I hope it's a happy book I.

I wrote it I I think it is I think it is. literally you're saying bad therapy why. the kids aren't growing up that's not. good well you think it's good in that. you're offering Solutions and you're. explaining the problem the solution is. something we can all do it's less. intervention it's telling parents you. don't need them your kids don't need. them they never needed them it's telling. kid parents trust yourselves if you. don't think that diagnosis sounds right.

for your kid don't go with it because he. you might just convince a kid for the. rest of his life that he's got a brain. problem and a limitation when he might. not have one so if you don't think it. sounds right trust yourself it's it. should be the most liberating book in. the world it's saying that you can trust. your gut. again have you Tau talk to any parents. that have gone down the road the bad. road that you describe and then reverse. course sure all the time I talk to.

parents who say you know I had my. daughter in therapy for 3 years and. honestly she was no happier at the end I. don't know why I did that really yeah I. hear that all the time and did they. reverse course with positive results I. you know it depends on the it it depends. on the individual cas Cas um you know. the one I was thinking about I don't. know the answer but I know that the. three years of therapy didn't help um I. talked to one wonderful cognitive. behavioral therapist Roger mcfillin who.

often tells people um that their kids. don't need. therapy I mean imagine probably got a. good business doesn't need more clients. you know what that's the problem right. the truth is they all have a good. business it's just some of them have. more integrity and they'll say you don't. need it you don't need this pill you. don't need this therapy right um did you. ever watch that um Netflix uh series um. painkiller about the Sackler family oh. about the opioid crisis no I I never.

watched it but what's fascinating about. it is uh first of all it's fascinating. how seeing how the regulatory bodies get. captured by money and about how they. just decided to make it normal and. normalize this idea of prescribing. opiates to people and and having them on. them all the time but also that there. were certain doctors that did have. integrity where the doctors who had. Integrity like what what are you talking. about like what are you saying you're.

saying you want to prescribe heroin to. people right this and the in the film in. the in the series rather they have these. women who are hired these very. attractive women who are hired to go to. these clinics and talk to these doctors. and push this stuff and try to get these. doctors to start prescribing this and. they don't have any medical background. and one of them has this conversation. with this ethical doctor it's. fascinating cuz you realize that there. are those doctors and if you get lucky. that will be your doctor but if you get.

unlucky you'll get that doctor that 30. minute video call is going to give your. [ __ ] kid speed you know I talked to. this one psychiatrist who told me the. story this guy had come to him young. young man had come to him for years and. he was saying I'm just I'm I'm really. paranoid I'm really paranoid I've got. this um I've about my girlfriend. cheating on me I know there's something. wrong with me like I need medication so. that this psychiatrist who's a very good. psychiatrist he said let's talk a little. bit about your life why are you so. paranoid and it turned out that the guy.

the girl his girlfriend had this very. close male friend and some sometimes. they would have sleepovers oh Jesus and. the psychiatrist said you're not. paranoid he's like no no no she it's. totally platonic they've been friends. for years he said you're not paranoid. and it's not platonic yeah yeah it's not. you're getting hosed son right that's. what he told him yeah you're not. paranoid if it's actually happening.

right yeah. right people need to a good by the way a. good mental you know you know health. professional psychiatrist whatever. that's a crazy story. right this is my platonic friend we. sleep over together yeah yeah and he was. convinced there was something wrong with. him wow that he was having trust issues. that's what he thought I'm sure he was. getting gas lit she was probably saying. it to him yeah right gaslighting is real. it's real.

yeah. boy God the the the Journey of becoming. a healthy human being is so Frau with. Peril it's so much difficulty it's. so it's so complicated well I think we. make it more complicated than it has to. be I think it is look I'm scared for my. kids like everybody else sure it is I. mean especially in our current Society. with all the crazy influences yeah but.

but I know you know they've done these. studies on human happiness people who. love you and you love back over a. lifetime you know family uh friends. you've had you keep for a long time wow. those you know that does a lot to help. you be happy surrounding your kids with. and giving them freedom to make F maybe. you don't like their maybe they're not. your favorite friends but realizing that. they're entitled to have their own. friends you know trusting them to start.

a job or take a chance you wouldn't have. picked for them that you have to let. them figure some of this stuff out on. their on your own I me one of the things. I I did so I changed a little while I. was writing the book and one of the. things I did was my daughter was begging. to walk home from the bus stop by. herself and she was little she was nine. and I was scared I don't even know if. it's allowed in my state but she really. wanted to walk home from the bus stop. it's two she had just cross two streets. and I let her and I let her because I. was interviewing parent after parent. after parent who weren't letting their.

kids do things like that and then they. had 13-year-olds who didn't want to. leave the house. yeah I was a latch key kid so when I was. young there was no supervision right you. just left right when I was 6 years old. we just open the door and walk out of. the house right younger than that I mean. I there was never a time where there was. any supervision walking by the way. things like walking to school are really. good for kids they learn to navigate. their world it's really healthy to have.

competency and that's something you. don't have to spend money on that's the. thing all of these fixes are really a. lot of them are just common sense and. they're things we used to give kids and. we stopped because we became so obsessed. with the idea that anything could be. traumatizing well we're also worried. because the media is constantly ing. these stories of children getting. kidnapped and killed and this and that. and predators that's that's a real fear. right but you can't protect kids from.

every kind of pain right we are so. obsessed with I've had Parents call me. about a bad you know or or I've heard of. you know teachers getting upset about. bullying and what was the bullying. someone said something not nice to. someone else now I tell my kids to treat. people kindly of course but I have to. tell you something if my kids came to me. and said she said something mean to me I. would say work it out it's not going to. kill you you'll live why because if I. make my kids think and I learned this.

from the process of writing book if I. make them think that my job is to make. sure they never feel any emotional. distress ever boy that's a lifelong. journey and it's going to be a losing. one. yeah well listen Abigail I I really. appreciate your courage and I appreciate. what you did with your first book and. the way you handled all the stress and. the way you handled all the blowback and. you're you're a courageous person thank. you and I think the things you're. talking about are very important oh.

thanks it's great to be here thanks for. let inviting me back despite uh the. trouble I caused last I it didn't cause. any trouble I mean it was attempted. trouble but it didn't really work I know. you succeeded it's. just it's important to talk about really. important issues it is and these are. both very important issues so your book. it's out right now bad therapy go get it. read it I'm going to read it um I. appreciate you very much thank you. thanks for being here all right bye. everybody.

[Applause]. [Music]. [Applause]. bye.