Joe Rogan Experience #2107 - Billy Walters

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day What's happen Billy good to see you. it's good good seeing you Joe it's good. being here thank you so you know George. nap that's crazy I do know George did. you get involved in the whole UFO thing. with him not really uh I knew George uh. got introduced to him you know his the. way he pays the bills he's uh he's.

he covers the news in Las Vegas and does. a lot of feature stories and that's how. I met George and uh we've become good. friends over the years I have a. tremendous amount of respect for George. and the work he does he's a great man. yeah really good guy too did he cover. your story uh George C discovered a lot. of stories involving me over the years. I've been in Las Vegas I moved there. permanently in 1982 and since I've been. there uh I've been involved in a lot of. different things indictments I did uh. I've done quite a bit of business there.

uh the biggest business mistakes I. probably made uh I did some businesses. there with uh I did some public private. Partnerships with with local government. and didn't make any money matter of fact. lost quite a bit of money but uh uh I. got quite a bit of notoriety that I. wasn't looking for I I got involved in a. world that I didn't totally understand. until I got into it it uh I got into it. for business and found myself wrapped up. in a political world and uh o yeah that.

wasn't good they think gambling's a. dirty business the political world. that's the real dirty business right. yeah I would agree with that it's uh. I've met a lot of uh people over the. years in that world and uh have a lot of. respect for some and of course I I'll. withhold my thoughts and comments about. others that's a game that you don't want. to bet on right that that is a rigged. game yeah that's pretty tough game. that's that one there's uh uh that one's. pretty much over before you get involved. I think most I I've been paying.

attention to your story and it's pretty. wild man you you essentially started. gambling in a pool hall when you're. about 6 years old that's right y that's. a very young age to get the bug yeah. well it's kind of interesting how how I. got there uh you know my father passed. away when I was a year and a half old. and my mother left to find work I was. born and raised in a small little town. in Central kentucky a little town called. mufford Ville and uh uh.

I I was lucky I had two sisters who were. older than me and uh and uh my. grandmother on my father's side took my. oldest sister my Aunt on my father's. side took my other sister and my mother. my my grandmother on my mother's side. took me to raise me and luckily for me I. could have had four parents I couldn't. have had a better role model than her. she worked two jobs uh she was an. extremely proud lady she wouldn't have. taken any assistance from anyone want if.

her life dependent on. it and so I learned a lot of things from. her early on in life that have been. extremely important to me and have kind. of carried me through to where I'm at. today and uh she worked these two jobs I. mean the first placees Joel I ever went. when I left my home where a Baptist. Church you know Sunday school on Sunday. morning uh you know Church afterwards. training Union on Sunday night prayer. meeting on Wednesday night and I went to. a Christian Youth Organization on Sunday.

night called they all. ambassadors but uh when I was around. four my grandmother she had this these. two jobs and uh she had to have someone. to keep an eye on me while my Uncle. Harry had a pool room so she started. dropping me off at the pool room when I. was four years old and my uncle Harry he. went to the back pool table he put up a. couple old wooden Cocola cases handed me. a pool stick and he went back to work. and uh I actually started banging pool. balls when I was four and uh by the time.

I'm six I'm rocking balls in Uncle. Harry's pool room and uh playing Penny n. ball so uh my life when I was six I'm in. church five times a week and uh I'm in. my Uncle Harry's pool room uh and and. and I just began to first grade so that. was my life wow yeah and then you went. on from that to be arguably one of the. most successful gamblers ever. I did and I.

have excuse me uh there's been a lot. of lot of ups and downs I've got a lot. of knots on my head in between I'm. sure but. uh you know someone asked me how I. became so good at gambling I told him I. became good at it by. losing and uh and you know I think my. life Joe when you kind of look back on.

it the thing that substained me has been. perseverance you know I learned from my. grandmother at a very early age you know. you you don't quit you know if you make. a commitment to anything you keep it. come you know come hell or high water. and uh the uh so uh when I look back on. my life and I look back through where I. began in gambling and and you know where. I'm at with it today I literally almost. can't believe that uh sometimes didn't.

quit and and and I tried to figure out. okay why didn't I quit well at bottom. line is I loved it I had a passion for. it it was something that I really. enjoyed doing I don't think there's any. question in my mind at one time I was. addicted to it and uh and and then of. course I was determined to be successful. at it and fortunately uh I was and and. am so talk me through how does it start. so you're a little kid you're playing. Penny n ball and then how does it go on. to big million dooll sports betting well.

uh I started off playing Penny n ball. and by the time I was nine or 10 I'm. playing you know five and5 n ball and. and uh as I got older and uh I made more. money uh the amount of money I was. gambling for increased because I had. more money to gamble with and then uh uh. and as I became proficient at it became. good at it.

uh it's like anything that you want that. you're investing in if you feel if if. you're confident and basically certain. that you're going to be successful you. want to you know uh win as much as you. can and and and as you know my bank roll. got bigger as uh the amount of money. that I had to bet with became bigger uh. or got bigger uh my bets became much. larger and so there was a combination of. confidence and access to Capital and.

access to markets so how good were you. at. pool uh I could beat all the local guys. and uh like a solid short stop yeah like. a solid short stop I couldn't beat a. good player uh I played Allan Hopkins. once he robbed no kid he robbed me and. and I played Steve meser once and he. robbed me too I couldn't beat players of. that caliber but I could beat players. that you know local guys I was a solid. short stop that's a that's a very good. description Joe play a lot of pool yeah.

yeah yeah when I lived in New York I was. playing 8 hours a day oh okay yeah we. probably know the few guys I'm sure I. know alen Hopkins and I met Steve. mizerak once yeah I played in a. tournament with him in West End. billiards in New Jersey Elizabeth New. Jersey in like 1990 I used to go to. Johnson City that was probably a little. bit before your time oh I've heard of. Johnson City that must have been amazing. it was amazing and uh and of course you. know uh over the years Ronnie Allen I'm. sure you know Ronnie Allen sure uh uh.

there's there's we probably know some of. the same people but uh I I'm sure I was. never as good at Players you I quit. playing pool when I was like 15 16 years. old and then you got into heavy sports. betting um what was like the first thing. you really got into where you like had. to do research cuz I I know the way you. would study like a team when you're. placing bets very meticulous you're. you're looking for injuries you're. looking for every possible advantage you.

essentially had an algorithm before. there was algorithms well actually I got. I got associated with a guy who had an. algorithm and I was handicapping Sports. and uh I was doing it with a penal piece. of paper. as everyone else was at that time except. one guy and I met this guy indirectly. through others in the late 70s and uh. became more directly involved with him. in 1982 when I moved to Las Vegas and. then by the mid 80s he and I were sold. partners of the other people involved.

initially were were all gone except he. and I then I realized Joe during that. period of time that he was going to. eventually lose his ede and I recruited. six other guys that had similar. backgrounds to his and uh they. did you know they did their analysis. independent of what he was doing the. only person they talked to was me and. they provided me with with their. information I knew each I knew their.

strengths I knew their weaknesses and I. would take a look at seven different. pieces of information and then decide. what I was going to do and then over the. years like anything else I got a little. bit better at what I did and uh uh and. luckily you know I've worked Joe over. the years with probably a minimum of 50. handicappers every one of them have. basically gotten to the point to where. they couldn't win you know in order to.

win handicapping you have to come up. with new ideas and you have to come up. with new ideas that are relevant that. that means something and because the. people making line are getting smarter. the competition is getting smarter so. whatever Edge you start off with that's. going into a road other people are going. to catch on okay well over the years and. when I was in my Haiti I was spending. $68 million in research and development. really oh yeah every year every year.

yeah and now I probably spend at least a. million now and as an example football. season is over we're already working on. next season the day the season was over. we're doing simulations we're running. lots of different things to go back and. see if we can find something that would. have made a difference in a game or will. make a difference in the game going. forward as far as the prediction is. concerned that's relevant that we can. quantify that makes sense and if we can.

then that you know our information it. will strengthen our information and. allow us allow me to continue to be able. to bet on Sports I only bet on Sports. Joe today uh I love it if I didn't I. didn't have the passion for it I. couldn't do it but I still win and and. have have an advantage and if I get to. the point that I don't have that. Advantage I'll quit okay but I still. have the advantage but in order to. maintain that Advantage I I continually. have have to be able to recognize find.

things that make a material difference. or make you know that that quantify. difference uh with the outcome of a game. to stay ahead of the herd so to speak. because you got really smart people. making a line you got other really smart. people betting okay I'm the guy I don't. bet on Monday or Tuesday or Sunday night. when the line's soft I I'm the guy I bet. on Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday why. do I bet on Thursday Friday Saturday. Sunday because cuz that's when you can. bet the most.

money early in the week you can only. make small bets I'm not in RIS in making. smaller bets today why do they have it. set up like that just in case something. happens it's injured well uh no uh when. the line originally comes out uh say on. Sunday night or Monday morning uh and. all sports are different some sports are. more vulnerable than others uh the NFL. is the least vulnerable sport of all. it's the toughest of all to beat in the. world as a matter of fact most of the G. guys that that gamble for a living or.

call themselves professional. handicappers they don't bet the NFL cuz. it's it's just too tough to beat okay if. that line comes out on Sunday or Monday. or whenever it comes out that's your. best chance of finding something there. where that odds maker missed something. and okay but by Tuesday that's gone okay. uh now it different sports you know. college football a non power five. Conference Team uh. you know uh you may find more of.

Advantage with that early on or even. later on because in the colleges you. know they're making a line on you know. 130 games and uh it's much more. difficult for them to make the line on. 130 games you know you got Personnel. that changes every year I mean it's just. more difficult for them to do that and. then on top of that the power five teams. you know uh like Texas is an example. there's not much about Texas that that. every body doesn't know but when you're.

looking at Louisiana Tech or you're. looking at one of these other teams say. a non-power five team okay the guy who's. actually doing the handicapp and may. have an advantage over the guy making. the line because there may be things. pertaining to that particular team that. it's not in the USA Today it's not on. ESPN sports I mean there could be a. little advantages but back to what. you're talking about why do they have. the the limits cheaper is because the. line's more vulnerable I would say by. you know Tuesday with the NFL by Tuesday.

Wednesday with the college football P. five or non-p five all those numbers are. solid years ago Joe the guys that I. actually feel like were smarter. bookmakers and the bookmakers. today uh as soon as they felt like the. line was solid they would take a full. limit bet because if you're a bookmaker. stop and think about it what you're. trying to do you're trying to write as. many on one side as you are on the other.

side so as an example once you feel like. your number Solid if you take a bet on. on a Wednesday or Thursday and that game. doesn't start till Sunday you can move. your line you got four or five days to. get action back on the other. side some some of the bookmakers today. and frankly I don't understand the. rationale at all because it really. doesn't make any sense a lot of them. wait until the day before the game or. the day of the game before they'll take. take a full limit bet which makes no.

sense because what happens if they wait. till the day of the game or the day. before the game and they take a full. limit bet they have a they have a small. amount of time to get action back the. other way I mean if you're a bookmaker. what's book uh what is bookmaking is. taking bets both ways and you're trying. to earn the vigorish okay you're not. you're really not trying to gamble. you're you know there's going to be. times you're going to be lopsided on one. game but what you're you're you know. the ideal thing for a bookmaker is to.

have as many have as many pets on one. side as he does the other and the volume. equal out and you earn the juice and. basically you got no risk or very little. risk okay so but I can't answer your. question as to why some people today. wait until later on I mean I think in. their minds they may think well maybe. the line's more solid or something. that's the only way I could but at the. end of the day the line by Thursday is. solid as a rock and I think if I were a. bookmaker and I have been a bookmaker as.

soon as I feel like the line solid on. whatever the sport is I want to take as. many bets as I can take as early as I. can take them to to move my line to draw. action back on the other side but you've. got people out there today that uh some. not all the guys that I think are smart. uh are smarter bookmakers they start. taking you know full limit bets on. Thursday because that gives them that. gives them. Sunday night Monday Tuesday Wednesday.

now they feel like the the line is solid. and it is solid but if they take it. about on a Thursday they got Friday they. got Saturday they got Sunday to get back. action back on the other side so it's uh. but you have different strategies from. different guys you just you got a lot of. guys out are today Joe that are booking. they really don't know anything about. booking you know they they they're great. at creating databases they're great at. creating you know generating customer. accounts and what have you but they. really don't understand the art of book. making and uh you know they've got these.

preconceived opinions that uh you know. that and what most of them do they'll go. hire someone who to be their bookmaker. and they'll look at that guy's uh you. know they they'll look at his background. or his bio and he'll have he would have. worked at some place in Las Vegas at. some hotel and he'll have a title of XYZ. or whatever it is and they you know they. don't really know anything about.

bookmaking this guy looks like the real. deal he's been interviewed and you you. read the things are written about him. and you would think he you know he knows. what he's doing so they hire the guy. they put him in that position and a lot. of those guys don't know anything about. booking they really don't and what they. do know is they know they don't don't. they know that they know don't know a. lot about booking okay and so as a. result what they do instead of trying to. promote and create action they're. they're trying to a lot of things that.

they do in my opinion uh it. uh uh it keeps action down so to speak H. now there's exceptions to the rule you. know you've got a sports book in in Las. Vegas called Circle they're open anyone. and everyone that comes in the door I. don't care who you are uh and they have. room limits they give everyone the same. room limits and they're generous limits. I mean on the NFL you can bet 50,000 a. game on college football you can bet up. to 50,000 a game sometimes they take 20.

sometimes they take 30s but they're. smart these guys know how to book I mean. and they they want to uh I anyone can. open an counter I have an counter myself. uh if they take a bet for me they move. the line and uh they're going to force. somebody back on on the other side of. that bat but they know how to book. there's guys there Nick bogdanovich. who's been in the business for a long. long time and others they know they. understand the art of bookmaking uh uh. and you got others in Las Vegas that uh.

and you got others in other parts of the. world that really understand bookmaking. I mean you got uh you know you've got. some guys uh uh offshore that understand. it extremely well it seems like such a. complicated and stress-filled. life and when you're you're telling me. things like you're you're spending. millions of dollars every year on. Research before the internet what kind. of research Arch are you getting like. how are you getting research on NFL.

teams or boxers or anything whatever. you're gambling on yeah well prior to. the internet there uh uh some of the. information today that you would can you. know you can get off your smartphone was. was was golden I mean I used to have a. crew of guys when I first moved to Las. Vegas in ' 82 we would send them out to. the airport and uh we had relationships. with the various Airlines and we would. be ble to get the newspapers that came.

came off of all the planes that flew. into Las Vegas and then and they were. filled with local sports stories that. were you know written by that local. sports writer and and then we bring them. back and and we had readers who read. those stories and anything that they. read in one of those stories that they. felt like was material to that. particular game uh it would be passed. along to to the handicapper and uh and. today you know you can read a thousand. newspapers online and get that same. information. or you.

could we have a program that we've. written now that uh you know I could we. have like 140 beat writers in in the NFL. that we cover anything that that beat. writer writes or anything comes out on. Twitter or social media you know uh the. program we have it will scrape it and we. we have that immediately we know and so. if there's a story there and there's. anything in that story that we feel like. that is going to have any real meaning.

toward the game you know we're able to. take that a lot of time you know the. time involved with it is everything too. because eventually that story is going. to come out everywhere yeah but back. back when you're talking about prior to. the internet we uh and and you know uh. Joe way way back it's kind of crazy but. I used to have a Zenith trans Oceanic. radio and used to I would sit and listen. to pregame shows and postgame shows but. the thing I used to do is I would call a.

lot of uh the cities and I had people in. all these cities and I would have. someone to put the phone up to the up to. the radio and I would listen to the. pregame show and I would listen to the. postgame show wow and yeah and you and. you were able to learn a lot from that. and uh today you know information is. it's it's it's a lot more accessible. than it was then so you would send. people to the airport they would find. these local papers and you would scour. these papers and go through these.

articles and what's specifically looking. for hard hits injuries how someone's. doing exceptional plays someone who's. really coming up what would you be. looking for well you're looking for. injuries and and and you're looking for. game plans and uh you know as an example. if a Coach says look you know we're. going to you know we're going to slow. this thing down we're going to start. running a ball uh you know. uh first thing you know comes the total. is not going to be as much if if he. starts slows his thing down he starts.

running the ball you know they're not. going to get as many plays and and. there's probably pretty high possibility. that the total is is going to come down. some on this game uh they talk about. players they talk about injuries you. know especially the quarterback you know. if you're talking about the quarterback. and you got a quarterback who's playing. injured I mean how that's going to. affect his performance is is really. important and they're always kind of. playing injured playing injured is as.

you talked about in the book I wrote you. know there's 1,400 players in the NFL. there's about 600 of them that have a. value and we have a value assigned to. each and every one of those individual. players but as you as you're as you've. noted a lot of them almost every one of. them are playing with some type of an. injury once the season begins okay then. okay who's playing uh again we listen. and we follow Dr David Chow quite a bit. and uh we think he does an excellent job.

uh he's on serus on the NFL Network and. he talks about the key players on a. weekly basis and uh and from an injury. perspective how how he feels like that's. going to uh affect their performance. there there are many more players that. Dr Chow doesn't cover that we cover that. are playing injured and again we do a. lot of reading we got 140 beat Riders we. cover uh I have a guy on my team he's a. quality Al ative guy he's not a computer. guy right he probably knows more about.

the NFL as far as a qualitative guy is. concerned I believe that Any Man Of Life. okay what do you mean by that a. qualitative guy well okay the 1400. players he knows who they are okay he. knows uh he he knows their positions uh. he knows what the value of those players. are as far as we're concerned he knows. how to adjust their value based upon. their injury and and after we get the. medical information we'll figure out how.

we feel like their their performance is. going to be affected against that. particular opponent that week and then. we if if a if a player is worth a point. and a half we may downgrade him he's. only worth three quarters of a point or. he may be worth a point if a guy's out. okay well we got a backup we know the. value of the guy out what's a backup. worth okay backup could be worth zero he. could be worth you know half a point and. he's replacing a guy that's a point half. guys so we have to downgrade the p and.

by a point that week and the other thing. with this qualitative guy he watches. every NFL game he grades every play okay. how many times have you watched the. football game and you'll see the score. was it wasn't indicative of at all of. what the score should have been so let's. say you know receiver's going down the. field and uh and he didn't have anybody. within 20 yards of him and he gets. thrown a perfect pass he just drops it. okay well he was unlucky he he should.

have had that pass on the other hand. let's say he's going down the field and. uh we had a pass like that in the. playoffs uh when San Francisco was. playing Detroit uh they threw a ball and. it it had a helmet R ricocheted and. ended up in a in a in a real long. completion and a touchdown that was. lucky okay so when we look at the box. score we look at the yardage we take. that off okay okay you know there's. there's plays that happen uh in the NFL.

when you look when you look at box. scores as far as we're concerned or. misleading okay when you look at the. total amount of yards you yeah everybody. kind of looks at the same thing you know. you look at the time possession uh so. you have to go over each individual play. and deduct all the lucky [ __ ] yeah and. and then and then we have player. participation we know who played in. every play so God you got to keep up on. all this so so to give you an example. Joe uh Pittsburgh uh okay TJ wats out.

okay he isn't playing well if you look. at Pittsburgh's performance with him in. the lineup and him out of the lineup. it's unbelievable that one guy could. could uh have that much effect on on a. team uh so if you're looking at if. you're looking at offensive performance. against Pittsburgh with TJ wat out you. know you're not looking you know you're. not looking at what Pittsburgh's defense. really is so you got to make an.

adjustment when you look at that and you. got to put that into your priority when. I wrote the. book it took me six. months to do this one section we wrote. what we call the master class okay and I. wrote what we call betting strategy I. wrote that for the 999 t% of the people. who bet Sports who and and we got a lot. of new sports betters today that have no. chance I wrote that for them okay and I. put the basics in there I put basic I.

put basic pting strategy in there which. that's probably is important to them or. more important than handicapping is I. put I put all the charts in there that. tells them exactly what each half point. is worth I put charts in there that. tells them exactly how a money line. compares to a point spread line on the. games two here's here's a money line. equivalent if you can get a better deal. take it if you can't take the other okay. I put stuff in there basic stuff because. none of that stuff is out there now guys. don't have any idea if they're buying a. half a point what the fair price is to.

pay and all these all these points they. have a different value as an example if. you're buying a game on or off of three. say from Two and a half to three in the. NFL or three and a half to three that's. worth 22 additional cents it's not worth. 23 but it's worth 22 if you can do it. for 20 buy it 21 buy it if it's a if you. feel like it's going to be a low-scoring. game uh and you can buy for 20 2 uh or. you might whatever buy it but if it's 23.

you're better off taking a two and a. half but people don't know that joil. okay what's a value of two well the. value of two is much less than it is. three the value of two is only worth 6. cents where three is worth 23 the. different numbers have different values. so I put those charts in there for the. guy that I pointed out too I also put. another section in there it's uh we'll. call it kind of the uh advaned section. and. that section uh I I tried to write in.

such a manner to where I felt like you. know people could understand it and. that's that's the guy who or or or the. lady who wants to become a serious. handicapper and and I and I explained in. there exactly 100% Joe exactly how I do. everything okay this book was written at. the end of the NFL season not this year. but last year it came out in August. everything that I know about sports. betting and handicapping is in that book.

I would not have sold that. information 10 years ago for $20 million. and I never had any intention of ever. writing this book and putting that in. there but I'm. 77 it's my legacy I see all these new. people out are betting Sports and. they're doing it in States now where. it's. legal uh I'm proud of that I'm I'm glad. that Sports has has come around to that. but also I still have uh there's a lot.

of things I'm apprehensive about also. but anyway so I I wrote this that was. one of the reasons I wrote the book but. in those two sections if you want to be. belly Walters and you want to be a. handicapper and I don't care what sport. it is uh I use the NFL as a model but. this model is the same model that for. every sport whether it be you're betting. on golf or you're betting on the NASCAR. you're betting on soccer or baseball. it's the same principle that's the way. they all work so I put that in there and.

then for people who are betting any type. of sport but especially the NFL uh or. college football I I but the NFL I put. all those charts in there to explain to. people because right now I don't care. what site you go up on Joe a lot of. these new places the reason they're. making the money they're making. is if you were to pull Sports betters. out there today everyone thinks making a. bet on a on a sporting event event. you're laying 11 to 10 that's the.

premise that we've all been taught that. you're laying 11 to win 10 a lot of. these bets today and matter of fact. almost all well not a lot of them all of. them uh these we'll call them uh you. know the teasers the. parlays uh those bets some of those bets. uh a guy's land a $150 and he doesn't. even know it because there's no. requirement to disclose the odd your. land so they're not going to tell you. but like these endgame parlays and. you're doing these three and4 parlays.

and you're doing these teasers a lot of. these places are charging you a150 to a. dollar you got no chance of winning you. got zero chance of winning I couldn't. win I wouldn't even think about playing. them but the average person who's. playing them they don't know that uh so. because right now there's there's no. requirement to disclose that to to the. customer and uh we all want to about a. small amount of money want a large. amount of money right Joe yeah okay well. you got a lot of people out there.

they're they're making these bets and. they're laying a140 $150 and they don't. know it when you look at these publicly. traded companies you know it's out right. out there in the public you know when. they report their earnings they're you. know they're they're doing very well but. they all refer to these parlays and. teasers that's where they're making the. majority of their money they're not. making M they're they're not making a. majority of their money on straight bet. where people are only 11 to 10 they're. making it on these proposition bets well. what I'm getting from you is that to be.

a successful Sports Gambler requires an. insane amount of dedication and research. and understanding and that you you've. got to be on it all the time and most. people are just not that sophisticated. when it comes to these things if they're. betting using an app or something like. that betting online they're just doing. it for fun they think they could win. they got a feeling they want to bet. their team they want to make the game. more exciting and so those people are. basically like. very.

under they're very under researched. they're very they don't have like the. full grasp of understanding of the. complexities of sports gambling because. it's a lot more complex than I ever. thought when I was going over your stuff. I was like oh my goodness like this. involves so much time so much time and. read this is not a simple thing as like. oh I follow Sports I think Kansas City's. going to win it it's not it's. complicated very very complicated and to. win at a level that you won at over your.

career and the the numbers like what is. the biggest bet you ever placed I bet $4. and half million doar on New Orleans to. uh to beat the Indianapolis Colts in the. Super Bowl uh that's the biggest bet I. replaced did you win I I I did I want it. I got lucky and I want it you got lucky. on that one well yeah I mean anytime you. win I mean I feel like I'm lucky I mean. it Joe the the world's made up of a lot. of different kind of people as we both. know and uh the uh but no I feel like. anytime I want to bet I got lucky I mean.

because there's you know uh but no I. want to bet and and and the reason I had. such a big bet is what I do Joe is I'm I. make a line on the game myself my. prediction of what I feel like the. differential should be independent of. what the expert completely independent I. could I don't even look at her line when. I make my life really no that's that's. high level [ __ ] well that's all they. that's all I'm doing the same thing. they're doing right I mean believe me. the the principles that I'm following. and making my line are the same.

principles that the handicapper is. making but it's Jo it's kind of like. making a cake you know one guy might put. a little bit more flower in than the. other guy does and so that's how we end. up with different you know lines. different numbers so I make a line on. each and every outcome of of the sport. sports that I'm involved and you betting. this on the individual players their. overall career what age they are how. they've been playing this season who the. coaches all the different factors.

whether or not there's in inplayer. disputes in between player like there's. a lot of things to take into. consideration it's again I put it all in. the book and and you're right there's a. lot of different factors that go into. that uh some more important others but. there's a lot of factors and uh and what. happens is uh the large of the. differential between the number they. make and my opinion the larger bet I. make there has to be a minimum of a. certain amount. of of separation or I won't make a bet.

but the larger the difference is between. my opinion and their opin opinion the. larger bet I make so I just give you a. rough example let's say the NFL and. let's say let's say I would have to have. a minimum of say a point and a half. differential from the line they make. from the line I I make point and a half. two points well that would I would make. I would bet one unit okay that would be. the smallest beted I would make but for.

each Half Point you would I so if if I. made the line on the game six and they. had it eight I would bet one unit if. they made it eight and a half I would. bet two units they made it nine I would. bet three units they made it n and a. half I would bet four units they made it. 10 I would bet five units well the New. Orleans game you asked me about which I. couldn't believe was a Super Bowl game. and this type of year we never get this. kind of. differential uh but but I had like a. seven-point differential between the. line I made and the line they made they.

made Indianapolis 7 and I thought the. game should be pick them and when I saw. the line I couldn't believe it I went. back I said well maybe I haven't made a. mistake here went back redid it redid it. and I pick them so that's how ended up. with such a large bet when you go. through something like how much time are. we talking like if you're placing a 4. million bet on a Super Bowl game how. much time are you. researching well but but that time of. the year here I mean all of our research. is done I mean it's this last game here.

okay the only changes you're going to. make from the last games that these two. teams played dur in the Super Bowl is. okay are there any players injured that. didn't you you what you have to account. for and uh you know clearly if they're. playing on a different surface or. something maybe than you know than the. teams normally do it's very small I mean. the second the game's over uh we can. have the line on next game within 6. hours it's not a problem or less I mean.

unless it involves you know some injury. or something that you know may take us. until we get some more clarity on that. but I'm going to know real close to. where I'm at frankly as soon as the. game's over almost within an hour or two. now there's been some times over the. years where referees specifically in. basketball games have been caught doing. things you know calling penalties trying. to swing the game in favor of another.

team and they get caught for it and. busted how much do you think that goes. on today like how how much do you think. like referees are bought off or maybe. perhaps they're betting themselves I. don't think that exists at all Joel. really and if it does it's very very. small but it has been right things have. happened in the past and but but but but. you know who uncovered each and every. one of those gamblers people betting. Sports and and bookmakers they're the. ones that made law enforcement aware of. these things. uh because at the end of the day whether.

you're a casino or whether you're better. the Integrity of sports is the most. important thing in the world to you a. good thing about what's going on today. there's probably uh more transparency. and betting today than there ever has. been all all of the legalized gamblings. taking place they have everyone's. account information they know everything. you're doing and the other thing about. betting on sports Joe unlike say Wall. Street it is a small Market Market much. much smaller Market than Wall Street so.

if you go out and you make a sizable bed. in. sports uh the line's going to move and. uh it's it's impossible to hide it okay. now there's people such as myself and. I'm not the only one there's a lot of. people in the sports business if they. see a line on the game move half a point. a point or whatever they know who caused. that line to move 99% of the time okay I. give you an example the Arizona State. situation that came up years ago I don't.

if you remember that one or not it was. their basketball team and they were. fixing games and then what. happened um there was a bunch of guys. that came to Las Vegas and uh they bet. on one of these games the line moved six. or seven points I bet on the other side. of it because you know uh the line I. make and of course I had no idea that. you know they were shaving points and I. lost the bat well they came back to town. uh a little bit later and they brought.

six seven guys and they were going to. all the different sports books and they. were betting and the line move six or. seven points again game Lin on games. don't move six or seven points well the. second time I didn't bet uh because and. sure enough they won the game by like 20. again they came back the third time and. but now I'm taping the games I'm looking. at the games they came back the third. time and they did the same thing well uh. I called uh uh Steve dharm who was the.

head of game and control uh for the game. and control board he was the the law. enforcement part of gameing control and. told him what was going on and uh they. dispatched some agents they tried to get. these people to talk to them they left. Las Vegas went back to Arizona and then. later on I think one of them got kind of. caught up in a drug deal and uh then it. came out they were fixing games and. couple players that were intentionally. throwing off and uh they were fixing.

games and that's how that Scandal came. out you know I guess so it was exposed. by gamblers oh it's by gamblers and and. how did you know that something how did. you know it wasn't just luck well I mean. Joe look this would be like tracking an. elf in the snow I mean you got you got. guys who no one's ever laid eyes on and. they come to to Las Vegas and they bet. they bet on a game and they move at six. or seven points you know if you're a. handicapp. you know anything at all about Bing. Sports if the line moves you know.

uh it it's and you're laying a second or. third Point what you know you you better. you better have a really strong opinion. because they move this line for one. reason uh it it's it's it's to make it a. lot less appealing to the person betting. on on that team so when somebody comes. to town and they move a line six or. seven points no better in the world is. going to do that and in order to do that. they they went to every sports book in.

town and they just you know they laid. you know six 6 and a half 7 7 and2 8 8. and A2 9 9 and 1/2 10 okay well because. they were new to betting okay they knew. they had they had an edge because of. what they were doing but they didn't. know anything about betting as a result. you know they created something that was. easy for anyone to see I saw it again. the first time I didn't know you know. the exact uh uh. you know I didn't know exactly who was.

doing it and I I I bet on the other side. of course I lost my money and of course. I came back the second time I've seen. these things before and I didn't bet and. then of course you know we taped the. game we looked at it it was pretty easy. to see who was doing what they were. doing they came back the third time did. the same thing frankly you know to give. you I mean these guys were trying to. break in jails what they were trying to. do anybody I mean they were anybody. would do what they were doing was just. stupid I mean anyone could see what they. were doing the only thing surprised me. it it took three games for someone to.

finally turn them in and I don't Sports. books I don't think ever turned them in. I mean I called the sh myself because. again anything that involves Integrity. of sports they're affecting my business. if people get to where they don't trust. betting on sports then the limits are. going to go down and it's going to. reduce my ability to be able to bet on. Sports uh you the other one you know. with a referee the the NFL referee. gamblers knew about that 8 months before. he got busted by law enforcement people.

quit betting on the games really well. sure I mean it wasn't like they just. suspected that the no well no what H. anytime again Joe because the Market's. so small okay think about the the New. York Stock Exchange or or think about. Apple stock you could. buy $500 million with Apple stock and. and the price on Apple stock would would. barely move okay okay on on a NF.

NFL on an NBA basketball game if you. were to bet. $250,000 on an NFL basketball game it. would probably move a point and a half. two. points so and again the people taking. the betat people such as myself and. others if a line moves on a game and it. moves like that and okay I want to know. who better on that game if it's another. handicapper or there's an injury out or. there's something there that makes sense. as to why that game moved then okay I.

understand it but if there's some. mysterious person that's betting a lot. of money on a game that hasn't been. doing this for a period of time and then. I look at an outcome of a game that. doesn't make sense uh if I tape it and. and I see you know something that's out. of the ordinary about the way the game's. being officiated or some players. performance it this is this stuff is. easy Joe to see and you're not dealing. with exactly you're not dealing here. with m criminals you're dealing with. people that frankly aren't very smart.

and number I me AR very smart to be. doing what they're doing in the way they. go about it or even you know about you. know I don't if you remember the thing. years ago with hot rod Williams I mean. there's the ones what was that thing. well it was it was an NBA thing also but. all the ones if you go back and you look. at the last five sports deals whatever. they were small or big every one of them. were uncovered like that and and uh so. you know I did a I did a I did an.

interview one time on 60 Minutes in 2011. and I was asked at the end of the. interview which I had the most. confidence in betting on sports uh or. investing uh in stocks and my answer was. I have a lot more confidence in betting. on sports uh for the reason I pointed. out uh it's it's a much smaller Market. but as far as as far as things being on. the up and up I have a lot more. confidence than that now way more. confidence in that than I do the other.

well obviously you know it well well I. not only know it well but I also if I. didn't know it well I I know how small. the market is I know how transparent the. market is and and if someone goes if. someone goes in to try to bet on Sports. and you're trying to fix a game it's. going to be so obvious it's so easy to. detect and it's so easy to and today. it's even easier and the good thing. about legalized sports betting is it's. so transparent everybody who has an. account you know you take all of these. young players that haven't you know they.

haven't been uh uh I'll call it school. correctly they haven't been they haven't. you know whether it be their teams or. whomever they haven't explained to them. you know the repercussions about betting. on sports if they're a professional. athlete you we've had some here recently. that you know basically these guys are. kids Joe they're kids they don't know. any better and and someone should have. sat down with them and explained to them. the ramifications of what they were. doing maybe they did maybe they didn't. but the one we've had a few of them out. there now but you know you've seen how.

quick they catch them because it's all. transparent they go in they make these. bets it does take them any time at all. to figure out who they are if they're a. football player or whatever they're. doing and it's been brought to Public's. attention so you know if if it's that. easy to catch them somebody out there. making large bets on something moving. the line. substantially uh and you don't know who. this person is and you're looking at and. they do this more than one time or two. times and you're seeing an outcome of a. game that doesn't make sense it ain't.

going to take long to figure this out. now when you get to a situation like guy. like Pete Rose uhhuh that was uh that. was a fascinating situation because this. was at the time where gambling was. illegal mhm unless you're in Vegas it. was it's diff and you find out he might. be betting on the team that he he's. coaching and he also might also be. betting against his. team I never I I've never heard anyone. ever say that Pete Rose bet against this. team uh I'm not saying it didn't happen.

but I've never heard that allegation I. know he was accused of it right is that. okay so you don't think so no I don't. think so I thought someone was saying. yeah John Dow I think actually. investigated this for the uh. uh for baseball so he was always betting. for his team I think he did bet on his. team but I don't think he ever bet. against his team I never heard that what. was the problem with him betting against. his team or betting for his team rather. that seems like just would be a guy who. has confidence in his team well uh.

personally I don't see a problem with it. but the people who uh are running. baseball uh or whatever the sport is uh. I haven't thought it really out probably. if I were on their side of it and uh. really thought through all of the the. different pluses and minuses I may have. a different opinion right off the. shoulder I really don't see a problem. him betting on his team or anyone. betting on their team uh although others. do and uh so uh and I'm trying to think.

of a good reason as to. why it would be a problem him betting in. on his team I really haven't thought. about that close was he ever accused I. don't think I mean I'm looking at the. like the ESPN outside the line story. they obtain documents there's no. evidence that Rose was a player manager. in 86 bet against his team no they show. a vivid snapshot on how extensive his. betting life was all the bets he did. make and. so it could have been just unfair.

accusations designed to taint his. reputation even further no no I think he. did bet on his team no against yeah well. if anyone if anyone accus him of betting. against his team I I think they're wrong. because I never heard that and I I don't. even think when the report that Mr Dow. uh issued on behalf of the uh of of. Major League Baseball I don't think. there was ever any allegations in there. that that he bet on his team but it. seems kind of crazy right wasn't he he's. removed from the Hall of Fame. well he never was in the Hall of Fame. but but his consideration he's he's he's.

never been voted into Hall of Fame uh. for that reason 20122 he's bringing up a. point where uh there's a manager or a. player on the Rockies that sign a. endorsement deal with Maxim bet and he. said like if what he did was happening. now no one would ever think anything of. it right yeah well I don't know about. that either because there was a there. was a young college player uh who's now. I think a pro who was betting on on his. team and I and I don't I don't think the.

NFL or I don't. think first of all I don't think. they I don't think they want you betting. on sports period but uh but I don't. think even betting on your own team I. don't think they want you to bet on your. own team are you aware of the the UFC. betting Scandal no sir I'm not so the. UFC there didn't used to be rules in. terms of uh like I could bet if I wanted. to anybody could bet on fights um and. what was going on was there was one. trainer and the allegations were that.

this trainer was involved in an online. betting group and he was letting these. people in this online betting group know. that one of the people that he was. involved with was injured MH and uh. pretty significant injury this guy winds. up going out and fighting loses in the. first round hurts his knee like throws a. kick blows his knee out apparently his. knee was already hurt MH um then they. find out that this guy been doing this. for quite a while or allegedly had been.

doing this for quite a while and so then. they pass this law now or pass a rule. with the UFC that no one can gamble but. I would imagine that fighting is. probably the most difficult thing to get. right in terms of to figure out a line. is that did you do any gambling on. boxing or MMA fights I haven't done any. any gambling on MMA fights I had. fighters in the past I had three boxers. and uh in Las Vegas and uh we trained at.

Johnny Taco's gym okay great gym and one. of my best friends in the world Billy. Baxter he he had Fighters at the same. time uh he had better Fighters than I. did record-wise he had Roger Mayweather. who uh became black mamba yeah that's. exactly right and Jesse Reid was our. trainer and uh uh making prices on. boxing I I didn't think was difficult at. all uh MMA uh you know back to kind of. what you're talking about there again uh.

well the. NFL you know you talking about. transparency I mean uh if a player is. injured they have to report that that. that the team does a league that so the. public knows that uh and you know they. have regular reporting requirements and. then like before the NFL games every. Sunday an hour and a half before the. games they have to come out with a final. report so uh you know. uh for whatever reason uh and boxing I.

know when I had Fighters that there. wasn't a requirement to disclose that. now famously Manny Pacquiao was injured. going into the Floyd Mayweather fight. yes that's what I heard and a lot of. people were Furious about that because a. lot of money exchanged hands during that. fight yes it did yes it did so uh the. uh uh again uh not knowing as much as I. I would like to know or I I'll make a. comment on something my only thinking is. is that you you know a lot a lot more.

about MMA fighting than I'll ever know. you and my friend Kevin. ioli uh the. uh would it make any sense to make that. a requirement to disclose. injuries it would yeah if you if you're. dealing with gambling it would. unfortunately though then you would give. your Fighter the other Fighter the. opponent a massive Advantage if you know. this guy's got a knee injury you're. going to Target that knee if you know. this guy's got a hand injury you're. going to know he can't punch right yeah.

there's there's certain things that. would change every aspect of your. strategy for a fight if you found out. that a fighter was injured especially if. there's something that would prevent. them from grappling you would know they. probably didn't do any grappling in Camp. and so you'd go with a grappling heavy. strategy just grab a hold of them. quickly really force them to wrestle if. you know he's got a blown out knee and. he can't really adjust on the feet or. shoot for takedowns or even defend them. well yeah yeah you would you would. definitely change things and Fighters.

hide injuries all the time I mean Dre's. dupy when he won against Robert Whitaker. he had a broken foot and you know he. beat one of the top guys in the world. with a broken foot and that's kind of. crazy that Fighters do that but that. that's the type of human being you're. dealing with and they can win that way. like it doesn't necessarily know just. because you know that a guy's injured. doesn't mean that that guy's going to. lose there's certain guys that they find. a way to win no matter what right and uh. I would imagine that that what I would.

what the thing that would give me pause. is. scoring judges scoring is horrible it's. the worst part of the sport it's so bad. it's so bad that. maybe 10 to 20% of fights you'll have. one car that's so off you're like what. the [ __ ] was that guy watching it. happens all the time as commentators. we're just scratching our head like how. did he give it to the other guy in what.

world and I will go back and watch it. again and see if I'm being biased I'll. I'll watch it with the sound off I'll. just analyze all the positions and all. the things that's happening and damage. done and control the octagon and pushing. the pace I'll look at the volume I'll. look at the amount of strikes landed and. then I'll be like how how the [ __ ] did. that guy see it for the other person it. doesn't make any sense and I always. wonder if someone's on the take I always. wonder cuz I know that there was a case. in Vegas where there was a woman who had.

given out very questionable decisions. like multiple questionable decisions and. the last one was so egregious that she. kind of just went away but I've always. wondered if those people were on the. take because Don King famously was a. sneaky dude and did a lot of very you. know very under the radar [ __ ] that was. probably not good and I would think that. if you have a fighter and that Fighter's. working for you you would definitely. have relationships at the very least.

with these judges so they would be more. inclined to score for you maybe you take. them on a vacation maybe you you know. take them to dinner maybe you you do. whatever you can do to get inside their. good graces and then if it's like e this. guy or this guy I'm gonna go with this. guy because I like Don King or you know. Bob arum he does me well so I'm going to. I'm going to lean towards that guy that. would be a real issue with me if I was. gambling particularly on boxing uh back. when I got in I was betting on boxing.

before I had Fighters but after I had. when you say you had Fighters what do. you mean by that like I had three. Fighters so you had contracts with them. like yeah yeah and what is the contract. involved well uh I was our manager uh oh. okay yeah and uh three actually three. young men I brought out from uh from. Louisville uh and that was a connection. my wife and I are both from Kentucky. originally and uh Billy. I I love boxing I I always love fighting. when you know I used to go to all the.

fights as The Silver Slipper the uh uh. you know. uh we you it's you know just I enjoyed. it a lot and so you go to the smaller. Regional cards oh yeah in Las Vegas I. mean you know I remember at the Henda. which is the Mandalay Bay day uh that's. where the ESPN televis televised fights. that's where they began in Las Vegas. and I remember had a fighter he was. really good fighter he'd won the.

national golden clubs like five six. times as an Amer fighter he'd beat Aaron. PRI his name was Terry. silver and uh he was a lightweight and. uh really really really good Amer and I. remember in order to get his first fight. on television there uh we had agree to. with uh uh Bruce trampler and Bob arum. we had to agree to multiple cont. contracts if he won the fight that's the. only way we get him on the card that. sounds like a bob Aron move yeah but.

back to what you're talking about those. days in the 80s I mean you had Duke. Durham uh Duke Durham who was Don King's. guy in Las Vegas and then of course you. had Don and you had Bruce T trampler. that was uh uh Bob arum's guy and uh you. know I mean you look at the various. uh organizations that did the ratings of. the fight igh and you look at some of. the fighters I mean if they were signed. with the right guy I mean they'd be.

ranked in the you know in the top 10 and. a lot of them couldn't bust a grape and. uh then you'd have guys that didn't that. weren't signed or hadn't agreed to those. contracts and they couldn't get ready. they couldn't get a fight so you're. right there was a tremendous amount of. politics in it and that's the primary. reason I got out of it and uh uh but I. still love boxing I love fighting I. don't understand MMA as nearly as well. as you do uh I can help you out I'm sure.

you could and uh like I said I have a. friend Kevin oie I think you probably. know yeah I know Kevin very well he's a. good friend and good guy yeah he is a. good guy and uh he's been covering MMA. forever yes he has and uh and so I'm GNA. I'm going to make it make it my business. to learn more about MMA and uh it's. complicated yeah I'm sure it is but a. guy like you that knows as much as you. know about sports you you could get into. it I'm sure to enjoy it it's a. complicated thing thing to um to watch. and and pick fights it's a complicated.

thing to gamble on because I think. there's a you have to have an. understanding of a person's physical. ability independent of watching them in. fights you have to be able to assess. like I can look at a fighter like a guy. like Ilia Toria who just won the world. title against volkanovski when I would. watch him fight and train even though he. was against lesser competition than. vulcanos I was seeing the speed of his. strikes the accuracy The Good the the.

defense how good the defense was his. durability I was seeing this Advantage I. was like man Even though this guy is an. he's an underdog he's fighting the most. dominant featherweight of all time this. guy's got some big advantages he's just. got a big advantages with that I see as. a fighter as a person who knows how to. fight and I'm watching the way he moves. I'm like he moves better he he's more. precise he's more accurate it's. complicated and then you have to take. into account you know how many times the.

guy's been fighting that year how banged. up he is cuz just like quarterbacks on. football days you're going to fight. injured everybody fights injured there's. always something there's always a neck. thing or a back thing or a hand thing no. Fighter fights 100% very very very. rarely I should say right but this the. again the thing that drives me the most. crazy is the decisions because if I was. a gambler and I laid a big bet on ilot. Toria and for some reason it went five. rounds and they give it to volkanovski.

and it's a terrible decision there's not. a more robbed feeling in the world I. know that's a that's a dirty feel. because it's so subjective as opposed to. scoring if you're watching a basketball. game if the the Lakers score more they. win it's real simple the ball goes in. the net more you win with fighting you. got three people some of them don't know. how to fight at all and they're the ones. who are deciding who wins and who.

doesn't win fights we a lot I mean back. in the 80s that way it a lot of those. controversial decisions in boxing oh. yeah as another reason that uh uh I got. out of boxing yeah there's some bad ones. even in the 2000s Manny Pacquiao and Tim. Bradley that was one where was like what. the [ __ ] and I think that lady that I. was talking about was involved in that. one as well there's been quite a few of. them and when someone is an incredibly. popular fighter like a Canelo Alvarez or. something like that where there's so. much money invested in this fighter and.

there's so much money potentially in. future matchups that if they lose boy. that could switch the amount of money. you make by an extraordinary amount but. if they get away with a robbery just a. little bit of a robbery over six months. a year two years people forget mhm they. forget well you got to factor that into. your handicapping yeah you have to. factor in possible robbery. are them getting the best of it right. yeah that's crazy you have to factor.

that in how did how would you like so. when you were gambling on boxing what's. the biggest bet that you ever made on a. fight uh I never made any real large. bets on fights uh what's a not large bet. for you though when Hackler fought Sugar. Ray at Caesars I think I bet about. 200,000 on that fight who' you bet on I. bet I bet on Sugar Ray did you really I. think you got lucky I did get Lu I think. Haggler won that fight. well my man Billy back he like he likes. Sugar Ray quite a bit and there was a. guy named Herby hoops at the time that.

was pretty sharp guy and anyway but you. know the Haggler one is a weird one. because he loses that fight and then. goes and becomes a superstar in Italy. yeah where's the mob from Billy where's. the mob. from I mean if I had to guess and watch. that fight when I watch that fight it's. almost like Haggler wasn't trying to. take him out it was almost man I wish he. was alive today and he's one of my. all-time favorite Fighters I have to say. I grew up in Boston and he was a tough.

man he he embodied discipline yes he did. he was the man yeah and he was what. probably before Terence Crawford one of. the best Switch Hitters that's ever. played in the game or ever fought he was. incredible he was so good at being a to. switch Southpaw Orthodox he fought. equally well from both sides yeah and he. confused the [ __ ] out of people because. of that yeah that's a great skill that's. something Terence Crawford has so well. such a good skill the ability to switch. sides it's just so baffling and if. you've ever sparred before if you're. used to sparring Orthodox people and.

then you're sparring a southpaw your. whole brain has to do all these extra. calculations and if you're not. accustomed to sparring with just. sparring with southp forget about. fighting them it screws everything up in. your head you have to readjust and if. unless you've gone through a whole camp. with southpaws like that's one thing. that people are very reluctant to do. like say if a fighter is scheduled to. fight an orthodox fighter and then two. weeks out that guy gets injured and then. another guy steps in to take his place. you find out this guy's a southpaw like. oh [ __ ] like it's such a different.

strategy everything changes with your. movement you're you know you don't want. to lead into the power hand so instead. of circling to the left now you're. circling to the right like there's a lot. going on well same thing goes with with. the South poow quarterbacks I would. imagine oh yeah big difference oh yeah. balls coming from a totally different. angle yeah and the Tendencies are. different too there's something also I I. don't I'm not a left-handed person. person but I have a theory about. left-handed people I think they just get. better at things quicker I think there's.

something about left-handed people they. see the way everybody's doing everything. backwards and so they have to see the. way they do it and then do it their way. and I think there's some sort of an. advantage in that okay well I hadn't. thought that one out yet but uh some of. the best pool players are left-handed. yeah there's a lot of like killer. left-handed pool players there's a lot. of killer left-handed Fighters yes I. know a lot of people that are. left-handed they just seem to have. there's like an extra thing that they. have that Orthodox people don't have I. had thought about that one but you don't. take that into consideration when I.

hadn't I had but I'm going go take a. look at it um so what was the biggest. fight bet that you ever put on probably. that one I mean I uh how much was that. the one that meant the most to me how. much was the Hackler fight couple. hundred grand probably uh but the one. that absolutely meant the most to me is. uh uh Terry silver this kid I told you I. got the fight at uh at uh we were at the. Henda which is now man La Bay and it was. it was a six round fight it was his. first six rounder and he's fighting some.

kid out of La you know Jimmy Montoya no. but Jimmy Montoya has been uh training. fighters in La for the Zan years and he. in he stable back in those days he had. like 120 Fighters okay and he would. bring guys over whether it be the Silver. Slipper the showboat or the. Henda and uh a lot lot of his Fighters. were on the card and he brought over the. Supan kid and uh this this kid's. fighting Terry and uh you looked at the.

guy's record and uh you know he uh I. think he was like maybe one three lost. two in he had a draw and uh I'm thinking. well this guy's got like zero chance so. this is back when I'm drinking some too. so we we go to the fight my wife Susan. and I and Billy's working a spit bucket. and uh fight starts and I'm betting. everybody I can betting the crowd I'm l. playing 5 to1 10 to1 20 to one up I. think I'm I'm just stealing you know I. mean I think Terry's probably going to.

knock him out in the first round well. Terry had gotten him a girlfriend in the. meantime and uh so he goes out there and. uh first round he probably hit this guy. 80 times the guy never laid a glove on. him this kid Terry silver had a really. really good LIF jab as good as any. you've ever seen in your life but he. didn't have a lot of power and the in. the in the Amer ranks like I he won like. five National Golden Gloves but when he. turned Pro he did he really didn't have.

a real real good punch so he came out in. the second round and he drops his gloves. and he's showing off and this kid hit. him and when he hit him his mouthpiece. went. out and then he's got the Wailing on his. head and I'm thinking I'm saying I'm. watching this I can't believe it and he. you know he kind of knocked him silly so. to speak well T's you know but he's he. had enough fights he probably had his en. ameter probably 50 60 fights so he got.

out of the round so they come out in the. third round and he still didn't shaking. it completely off and the guy goes a. whing on him again and now you know he's. bleeding and uh he got a gash over one. eye blood's coming out a little blood's. coming out of his mouth so the fourth. round come comes out he still just. woring him out with my wife Su and said. look you got to stop this fight so I run. down to Billy I said Billy I said uh. stop the fight and I said by the way I. need to borrow.

50,000 he looked up he looked up at me. he said uh let's let him go a little. longer so Terry gets he get he gets out. of the round he comes out in the fifth. round and the fight completely turns. around and he starts wait he starts he. got you know he's he starts wearing his. other guy's head out and he wins the. fifth round I mean it's not even close. so they come out for the sixth round and. this was only a six round fight Joe but. it's one of the best fights I've ever.

seen in my life and uh I mean they stood. toe to- toe in the sixth round and they. fought and bell rings well I got a draw. and and it but it was one of the best. fights I've ever seen it was a sixth. round fight and I got a draw and the. reason I got a draw is I had a kid was a. real classy fighter and I got to tell. you the I got to tell you the ending of. this story. I'm in prison I'm in Pensacola and I get. letters and I got a letter and I hadn't.

seen Terry silver since then when I when. I gave up the fighters I gave Terry to. somebody I gave Tyrone Moore to Billy. and I gave Dana roson to Billy I'm in. presis Fast Forward. 201819 I wish I have brought the letter. I'll send you a copy of the letter and a. letter from Terry. silver and he said Billy said uh uh you. know I remember he was talking about the. fight and he said uh you know and he.

said you know I remember you tried to. stop the fight he said I he said I could. not lose that fight for you and Miss. Susan and he went on to talk about you. know that and talked about our. relationship and anyway he sent me this. letter and I I mean I don't know 40. years later I get this letter in pres. from this kid and it's all about that. night that fight at the Henda and and. how he wasn't going to lose that fight. and he and he wasn't going to allow him. to lose that fight because of of of.

Susan and me and it was was touching wow. yeah Dodge that bullet huh need to Bor. 50 Grand yeah well Bly would have. stopped the fight but the problem was I. said I need to borrow 50,000 he said he. hesitated he said let's let him go a. little. longer that's hilarious that's. hilarious wow so what did you wind up. going to jail for uh I went to Zale for. insider trading the uh uh see Joe uh.

publicly people know I've been on Sports. and they know I'm you know pretty good. at that and uh the uh but I do a lot of. other things Joe uh since the late 80s. you know uh I've owned golf courses uh I. had seven golf courses in Las Vegas. which you know I built from scratch four. of them and the other three but I've own. and operated golf courses since the late. ' 80s I've had golf courses in Chicago. Chicago New Mexico Arizona uh but I had. seven in Las Vegas uh you know when I.

got out of school I went in the. automobile business I got I was in it 16. years I got out but I'm in the in the. automobile business too so had 22 car. dealerships at one time so at the golf. courses uh car dealerships uh B on. Sports but I also invest invest in. stocks I invest my own money not someone. else's money and you know actually I. probably have a bigger presence with. that than I do but in sports because. it's a bigger Market you you can you can.

bet more I bought a stock I'd owned it. for 10 years and uh the uh I'd gotten. involved uh there was an SEC. investigation uh the initial. investigation was into myself and Carl. Aon and it involved a stock trade that I. did with that that he owned stock in and. that investigation went three and a half. years it went nowhere because there was. nothing there there was no wrongdoing at. all and then uh and then there was a. stock that out owned for 10 years a.

stock called Dean Foods and Dean and. they'd been involved in a material. transaction they'd spun off a part of. their company and I owned a large amount. of the stock and uh. the uh was looking at anyone who bought. and sold stock around a certain period. of time and I was one of those people. and uh it was at the end of the other. investigation and uh because of my. notoriety who I was I'd been indicted. six times before and I'd go to court and.

beat beat him five times uh that started. in uh. 1983 so you were already a mark man well. yeah Mark man indicted for I've been. indicted for betting on sports Joe Joe. stop and try to get your head around. this one in. 1990 in Las Vegas Nevada the gaming. capital of the world the FBI took myself. and my wife out of our home and.

handcuffs and my wife they had leg IRS. on her and we were arrested and we were. charged with being a part of a criminal. conspiracy conspiring to bet on Sports. bet on Sports now here we are. 2024 betting on sports is legal in the. majority of the United States in. 2023 in Las Vegas Circle Hotel I was. inducted into the sports gamblers Hall. of Fame for betting on sports so H but.

in 1990 in Las Vegas Nevada I was. indicted along with my wife and charged. with betting on sports so yeah I'd gone. to court a number of times I'd beat him. a number of times every one of the. indictments were centered around my. sports betting uh that's what they were. centered around nothing more nothing. less but I you know I was a sports. better so was sports betting illegal. what were the laws absolutely it wasn't.

illegal no not illegal at all I was. charged with being part of a criminal. conspiracy conspiring to bet on. sports betting people in other states it. was ridiculous I went to court my wife. and I we were exonerated uh so is it. because it was legal in Vegas but not. legal in other states they tried to make. it that way but when we went to court. and the facts came out uh we were. exonerated on all the charges there was. one charge the the vote was 11 to1 to. acquit us and come to find out that one.

guy who voted against us hadn't told the. truth and his and his uh interview to be. on the jury he was a former police. officer and uh so anyway they chose not. to Indi us they dropped the case it was. over with but we exonerated all the. charges except the one charge and we. they were voted 11 to1 to quit us on. that and then uh and then I was indicted. three times after that for the same. thing betting known Sports it was thrown. out of court every time and then uh so. anyway but what happens what I realized. through all this Joe is the the higher.

profile you have the bigger Target you. become especially if you're someone. who's beat them a number of times over a. period of years there there becomes a. vendetta you're the guy that everybody. wants to bring down and then I'm. involved in New York originally with a. guy with Carl icon one of the you know. one of the most successful in investors. in the history of the world and and in. that investigation went nowhere CU there. was nothing there and then this issue.

came up with Dean Foods and uh and. bottom L was there was a lot of. motivation to to get me to indict me and. that's exactly what happened the four. people that were five people involved in. my case uh three prosecutors a. supervisor and the former US attorney. four of them as soon as my case was over. within a matter of months held press. conferences and their claim to fame was. they had sent me to prison three of them. have gone into private practice today. their sole business is they represent.

people with white collar crimes in the. southern district of New York they bring. them back over and they were the people. that they work with for years and they. cut deals the fourth one ran for the US. Congress in New York he's now a United. States. Congressman uh and and the guy who was a. former US attorney he is now working for. a law firm representing people with. white collar crimes so they go they went. from what they were doing to these very. high-paying jobs making a lot of money.

the other fell is now in politics he's a. he's a congressman from New York so. there's a lot of motivation uh for. people on that side to send high-profile. people to prison and that's kind of how. they get to the next rung of the letter. so to speak you know the reason I wrote. this book Joe is I started I began to. write this book in 200 three with a guy. in Las Vegas his name was Jack Shen good. friend good writer good guy and we.

worked on it for a while and I deci said. I'm not writing any book okay well fast. forward. 2017 I walked into federal prison in. Pensacola Florida when I was 71 years. old with a 5year sentence which could. have easily been a life. sentence uh and while I was in prison My. daughter committed suicide. so I had to write this book I had to. write it for a number of reasons I.

wanted to share my childhood uh that you. and I went over a little bit uh I want I. want to help people because you know I. don't care who you are what part you're. at in your life we all have issues that. we're dealing with so I wanted to share. my childhood and then I wanted to share. you know the the addictions that I had. when I was younger I had uh I had an. issue with alcohol I got addicted to. about any sports and then later on in my. life uh as I became more mature and I.

was able to overcome those things you. know uh I got in business uh I've been. successful with that and uh you know. I've become a fairly successful Sports. better so uh and then I went to prison. which I had to share that experience. because when I went into prison there. was only one positive thing that came. out of that Joe I mentored around two. dozen men and some of these men have.

been in prison 20 25 years and uh it. really opened my eyes you know every. time there was a visitation where I was. at in prison I had someone who visited. me 60% of the people in prison never get. a visit but these men that I. mentored uh not a one of them wanted to. go back to. prison but I spent a lot of one-on-one. time with them and the closer they would. get to release uh you know the more. apprehensive they became I mean tough.

guys you know I mean tough guys you know. ripped guys that been in prison 20 25. years they would become very emotional. they didn't want to go back to prison. but they they knew they were probably. going to come back to prison because. they had no way to earn a living the. only thing they learned in prison was. how to become a better. Criminal and yeah they were going to get. out while they were in the halfway house. were going to get a job someplace making. minimum wage but as soon as that was. over they had to do something to feed.

their families and they you know they. didn't had no job skill set so when I. got out of prison I knew I had to try to. do something about that okay and uh so I. got involved with Harry Reid when I. recently got out of prison former. senator from Nevada former you know. Majority Leader uh and I got involved. with Harry because clearly uh Democrat R. Empire new and I wanted to put. vocational schools in the federal. presence and I was willing to put up.

some of my money initially get it. started and uh and unfortunately Senator. Reed P he passed away before we were. able to get anything done well a fmer. sheriff in in Las Vegas Bill. Young he told me he said Bill he said. the best re-entry program in the United. States it's in Las Vegas he said it's. called hope for prisoners I said I never. heard of it he said well I want you meet. this guy that runs it so there's a guy. runs it his name is John Ponder who's. been in prison TW himself twice he.

started his program in 2012 Joe the. recidivism rate is only. 5% so you know being a l guy being a. gambler you know there's a lot of people. looking for your money these days we all. know that uh but I met with John Ponder. and uh the uh became really impressed. with with him uh but the more I learned. about him and the program and what he's. done I got superly impressed and uh so.

my wife got and I got more involved we. we made some financial assistance. available and they were able to to add. to some of the things they were doing as. far as you know teaching and stuff this. is an 18-month program these people are. in by the way and the first thing they. do almost everyone these people have an. issue with drugs first thing they do is. get them off of drugs. second thing they do they get them right. with their families you got to be right. with your family and that's the reason.

this program works so good and every. month we have a graduation there the. graduation Joe is held at Metropolitan. Police Headquarters in downtown Las. Vegas there's usually 50 to 75 police. officers there uh come to find out. there's 200 police officers in Las Vegas. Metro that are mentoring these people. now a typical graduation you've got the. mayor there you've got the district. attorney there you've got a judge there.

you've got the head of Corrections for. Nevada sometimes a Governor's there if. he's in. town and uh usually you got about a. thousand people there friends and and. you got a lot of mentors in in the Las. Vegas area that come they come up and. they receive their diplomas and the. second that's over there's a job fair. and they all have jobs before they leave. and then in in in these graduations. they'll invariably always have someone. who's been out of program for a year or. two years or five years they'll come up. and speak and they'll talk about their. life and how it changed their life.

so. uh the current governor we have he was a. former Sheriff that was involved in this. program uh his name is Joe. Lombardo and uh so Joel recognized how. important it is for these people to have. a job skill set when they come out of. pres also so uh we spoke to him and the. head of Corrections in Nevada and uh. they and we now are putting vocational. schools in Nevada prisons and uh uh.

they're going to be able to get. certified to be an electrician a plumber. air conditioned uh repair truck driver. and uh when we decided to do this of. course it takes money there's another. family in Las Vegas the englad family. and so they agreed to put up $2 million. uh Susan I agreed to put up 2 million. and the state agreed to put up a million. so the night they made this announcement. uh I asked I was asked to come and speak.

and uh I got there and there was another. speaker name was Alice Johnson do you. know Alice Johnson no Alice Johnson is a. lady that uh I was in prisoned at the. time but president Trump pardoned her. and he pardoned her because her case got. brought to his attention by Kim. Kardashian and uh so Alice Johnson got. up and spoke and uh I was Bown away with. her and I was blown away with her speech. I think she was from Mississippi I think.

or Louisiana one of the two and she'd. gone to prison for being quote a drug. mule and if I understood her correctly. and I think I did I think her role as a. drug mule was she was she was conveying. messages between the guy selling drugs. and the guy supplying drugs and she was. strictly on a phone conveying messages. never touched a drug never sold a drug. first time off fence they give her life. in prison with no parole whoa first time. offense so she was in prison I think. about 22 years and uh it become a model.

uh person in prison I think she become a. minister and she got pardoned and uh but. that was that was that went into either. all or most of the prisons in the United. States at night so we followed it up we. went out to Indian Springs State. president in Nevada and we walked in the. gymnasium I was there with John Ponder. and myself and uh and there's I don't.

know five 600 800 inmates there and uh. when we originally walked in we started. talking to them you could kind of see. you know they were kind of disinterested. some were listening but most weren't but. when John got up and he got to talking. about what we were going to do you could. see they started to get more interested. and when I got up there you know I said. well you guys are probably trying to. figure out what this old gred dude. here's to talk to you about today so I. kind of explained to them while I was. there what my background was the fact. that I've been in prison and what we.

were going to do with the vocational. schools well Joe when you got finished. you could hear a pin drop and uh we. started doing Q&A and uh and it seems. like the questions went on forever. finally the correctional officer said. you know they have to get back and we. had to end end the Q&A but now we have. vocational schools in Nevada prisons in. Nev and it's just uh to me it's it's not.

only those men that I remembered that I. mentored okay when they go home a lot of. them have families you know they got. four or five children okay so those. children if that father goes home and he. has a job as an electrician a plumber. aition. repair uh their father is no longer a. criminal their father is an electrician. he's a plumber and I think there's a. much greater chance that that child will. follow in those footsteps than possibly.

that of of crime a life of crime so. anyway long story but that's a beautiful. thing to be proud of well I am proud of. it and the but there were a number of. reasons I wrote this book I mean I you. know I see the so-called whatever number. you pick out the 50 million new people. that have been in sports and I see the. way that Sports is being marketed the. way it's being pitched to these people. and I can see you know it's almost a CCH. that a large large part of them are.

going to become addicted okay uh if if I. had been pitched on Sports the way. they're being pitched on sports today. with a phone I mean I got addicted. without it I can only imagine what it. would have been with it and then on top. of it there's no there there's no law. whatsoever now that they have to. disclose anything so people are making. bets on Sports they have no idea what. the odds are their playing or getting or. anything else there's no disclosure. whatsoever and then on top of that uh. you know uh they they don't even.

understand the basics of sports betting. so I wanted to put that in the book and. by the way Joe you didn't ask me this. 100% of any money that comes out of this. book goes to charity it goes to. Opportunity Village of Las Vegas which. is an organization that works with. intellects to challenge people it goes. to hope for prisoners and it goes to an. organization in Louisville Kentucky. called Cedar Lake Lodge which works with. intellectually challenged people that's. beautiful yeah that's really great that.

you're doing that man it really is this. this case that they got you on insider. trading what was the allegation what did. they say that you had done well they. said that a guy who was on the board at. the time had passed me along non-public. information uh and I had taken that. non-public. information uh and I used it to trade uh. on the stock take advantage unfair. Advantage illegal advantage and made. money and that was the allegation and.

that's what I was convicted of when I. went to prison now you know I could give. you the background and the details of it. Joe and uh I think. even even. as even the life you led I think you'd. finally you would find it fairly. interesting I owned this stock for 10. years and this fellow who uh was on a. board of directors his name was Tom. Davis I reason I met this guy in Dallas. Texas in uh like.

2000 and I was trying to raise money I. was trying to buy American Golf and. National Golf. properties he was running Donson lkin. and Jett in Dallas at the time uh which. was an investment bank and I went there. to try to raise the money to buy these. entities and I wasn't I didn't raise any. money through him but I hit it off with. him I like the guy a lot he played golf. and uh uh we knew some other people he. had a home in La Hoya at the time and uh.

so we we became. friends 2002 Dons lkin and Jenner Rett. got sold. out uh and he started his own private. investment firm and then you know he. would call us on deals in Las Vegas and. and we invested in some of the deals he. called us on some of the deals we we. didn't invest. in uh this guy was a very prominent guy. in Dallas he own part of the Dallas. Stars he own part of the Texas Rangers. he was a member of Preston Trail Country. Club uh when he was in La Hoya I played.

golf with him I played a member guest. with him one time at La Hoya Country. Club I had a lot of respect for this guy. and uh every time I was ever around this. guy he was the most button- up guy that. you could ever. imagine and uh didn't realize it at the. time and I don't think most people. around him realized it but I think he. ended up with a real issue with. alcohol and it LO and he came out in. court it looked like he ended up with. some sort of a uncontrollable issue I.

think with women too and uh the uh I. think he lost all of his money gambling. and uh and then what happened after he. lost all of his money gambling uh he was. on a board of directors of a charity in. in Dallas and he'd actually embezzled. some money from them to pay some of his. gambling. debts uh clearly I was told unaware of. any of this or I don't think anyone most. people I don't think anyone in Texas. even know about it especially you know.

the people that Dean Foods well what. happened is Dean Foods when I got. involved with it uh early on they were. made up of like three different. divisions they had just a we'll call it. a regular milk division which was a. majority of of their business majority. of their revenue then they had an. organic division called White wave and. then they had another division that. primarily uh sold products to. institutions say like McDonald's and.

long shelf type. products well during the years people. quit drinking a lot less milk we call it. fluid milk and as a result the fluid. milk business was in. Decline the organic business was growing. Leaps and Bounds you know soy milk uh uh. oat mil milk different types of those. type different milks well the stock. trade traded at a at a depressed price.

because of majority of their of their. revenue came from fluid milk just. regular old milk but the other parts of. their business they were growing. substantially and uh that was really the. play with the stock NOW the the federal. government they set the price of raw. milk every month that's publicized so. that's what the. the farmer gets for his milk when he. sells it to someone who's who's uh who's. in the milk business so I bought in this.

stock and I realized pretty quick that. uh I thought it was like you know J&J I. thought it was something didn't have a. lot of volatility to it well I realize. there was a lot more volatility to it. than I realized because the price of. milk the price of petroleum products. because uh uh Dean Foods had a huge. Fleet of trucks for transportation that. were. they were all running on diesel fuel and. then the cartons were made out of oil. and there were a lot of things that that.

had a material influence on on how they. were going to do as a. company well in. 2010 Dean Foods came out and publicly. announced that they were looking at. spinning off White Wave the organic. division they hired a company to come in. and do an assessment and came back said. well the time it wouldn't right for them. to do it but it was something they would. certainly consider in the future if they. felt like it was in the best interest of. the. company in 2000 I sold all of my stock.

in. 2011 the very end of. 2011 I bought 8,900 shares of that stock. from uh JP Morgan and the only reason I. bought the stock and for me it was a. very very small amount of stock a very. small investment the only reason I. bought this stock was JP was their Lead. Bank and I knew if I ever tried to talk. to that analyst about Dean fods and he.

wasn't available he was in a blackout. period maybe there was something going. on you know because I knew they were. going to spend this company off. eventually and not only did I know it. everyone else knew it it wasn't a matter. of if it was just a matter of. when so you fast forward to May of. 12th that month doche bank had come out. with a report and uh they had predicted. that white wave was going to be spun off. well they had an earnings report that. Month in May and I had put a limited.

order in to buy the stock do you know. what a limited order is no well it's. like making an offer on a house okay uh. stocks a limited order on stock let's. say the Stock's trading at $10 you call. your broker up and you say okay Joe I. want to buy so many shares of Dean food. stock but I'm not paying any more than. $10 if it goes past 10 I don't want any. but anything you can buy for 10 or less. I want to buy this number of shares of. stock so I put a limited order in that. day to buy that stock and uh I didn't.

get it bought I got half the stock. bought because the price had gone up. well the next day they reported earnings. and they also announced that they were. back considering to spend off whitewave. stock stock went up about. a120 I bought another 750,000 shares of. stock and paid the additional $120 I. didn't sell a share that was in. May in. June uh I didn't buy any stock in July.

there was a severe drought in the United. States corn prices went through the. ceiling and when corn prices went up you. know the price of milk's going to go up. because the farmer's got to feed his his. milk with with with corn right or or and. then on top of that uh uh what happened. when when the when a corn prices went. way up the dean food stock price went it. went way down and I had a loss on the. stock at that time of I had a paper loss.

of I don't know three four5. million well when he did that I went. back in and I bought another say million. and a half shares of the stock which was. consistent with what I've done with. every stock I've ever owned almost if I. buy a stock price goes down I'm going to. buy more of that stock to average a. price out especially if I feel like the. stock is really undervalued and I and. the only reason Dean food stock had gone. down was because of this drought and the. corn prices had gone up both those. things were temporary droughts don't.

last forever and I knew as soon as as. the drought normalized itself the stock. would go back up regardless but on top. of that Dean Foo had announced that they. were considering spending off White Wave. stock this was the second time publicly. that they' had done this okay because in. 2010 they did it they did a study now. this is. 2012 so on August when they reported. earnings. they confirm we're going to spend off. White Wave stock stock goes up about $4. half a share I didn't sell a share Joe I.

bought another million shares I paid an. additional $4 half a. share. now from that August until the following. February of the next year every time. Dean food stock would go down I would. buy more of it okay so now we get to. February of. 2013 and I own 5,300,000 shares of a. stock well I wanted to buy a home in. Palm Desert so I bought a home at a.

place called Big Spring uh Big Horn. Country Club I sold a million shares of. the stock to pay for the house and I. kept 4,300,000. shares two weeks later Dean Foods. reported earnings and the earnings were. bad the stock went down. $2 that was one of the charges of. insider trading they charged me with Joe. they said that I had PRI knowledge that. the earnings are going to going to be. bad I avoided a $2 million loss on a. million shares of stock that I. sold but I lost 8.6 million on the stock.

I kept so does that make sense to you if. you're trading on insider trading I. would only sold a million shares of it I. I mean why would I sell it all you know. that was one of the charges but anyway. fast forward how did they try to prove. that you had Insider information well. I'm going to get around with that I'm a. slow Storyteller but no worries I like. it but I'm thorough uh I had 31 months. to think about from prison Joe so anyway. fast forward to the following August. which was a year after they had.

announced publicly they were going to do. this I kept my 4,300,000 shares and then. the following August when they finally. spent an office when I sold my the. balance of my stock so they did the. investigation and what happens anytime. there's a material transaction with a. public and Trad company the SEC they'll. send out a list of people who bought or. sold significant amounts of stock to the. boards of directors and they'll ask them. do you know this person and when they. did Mr Davis he identified me and.

rightfully so that who I was what our. relationship. was so the SEC they were doing uh their. investigation then after the case in New. York when Mr ion and I blew went away. there was nothing there this Dean. fooding came up and uh I didn't realize. it at the time but Tom Davis. uh had gotten involved in some you know. some some some pretty bad things.

so the New York Times And The Wall. Street Journal they leaked two. stories and all the details in the book. about the leak stories 100% of it and. when they leaked these stories and one. of the stories they put Tom Davis's name. in the book so Tom Davis and his lawyer. a guy named mil shamer they contacted. the SEC and they say look we want to. come and give a. voluntary uh interview so they go up. they give a voluntary interview and they.

said look they denied emphatically that. they'd ever given me any inside. information uh uh told them under no. Circumstances had they ever given me any. insight. information well the SEC but more. importantly the FBI continued to. investigate Tom Davis they learned that. he had embezzled this money from a. battered women's charity in Dallas they. learned that he had had a frozen tax. return file because what happened when.

he took this money out of this charity. when he put the money back in the. charity it creates an entry you know. withdrawal and an entry well the guy who. normally fil the taxes for the charity. told him we're going to have to show. this withdrawal in this entry he said oh. no no you can't do that uh cuz he didn't. want other other people on the board of. directors to know what he had done. so he gets someone else to file a return. which is fraudulent he doesn't disclose. this and then uh come to find out uh he.

had given inside information to someone. else in Dallas another man. there so they continue to investigate. him and uh the I think after he and his. lawyer learned that uh they had him for. embezzlement they had him for tax fraud. and they believe they had him for. insight trading with this other man uh. there that he had actually given inside. information to two years after he'd.

given his interview he decided that he. did want to make a deal so his lawyer. had represented Mark Cuban in his case. in Dallas when Mark hban had an SEC case. in that case his lawyer had hired a. lawyer out of New York a guy named Chris. Clark and Chris Clark was uh the lawyer. that recently represented President. Biden at had to withdraw from a case if. you or I'm sorry he didn't represent. President Biden I'll take that back he. represented President Biden's son but he.

had to withdraw himself from a case for. some reason sometime back that's the. same Chris Clark well anyway mil shimer. he called us Chris Clark and said look. uh you know uh we gave an interview two. years ago but things have you know. evidently things have changed they felt. like they were under a threat of him. getting some major jail time because he. embezzled the money if frer tax return. and and they he had given this other guy. inside. information so Chris Clark uh there's.

another long a young lawyer who had just. joined their firm and this young lawyer. was named Tom uh uh his name was uh Naf. Talis uh and he I think Benjamin NE. Talis and he had just worked at the. southern district in New York and he'd. been gone for a short period of time and. he' actually worked in I think worked. with the same prosecutors who. investigating this case. so uh Tom Davis and Mill shamer they end. up retaining Chris Clark and and this. Benjamin NE Talis to represent them so.

they go up there and decide they're. going to make a deal with the government. in return the government they're not. going to you know they're you know. they're not going to push for him to go. spend any time in prison so he uh he uh. do you know what a profer is no okay I. didn't know what one was either until. this case came up what a proper is Joe. if you meet with prosecutors or you meet.

with the FBI and you decide you're going. to tell them something about someone. else uh that's called a proper you're. going to tell them everything you know. it has to be truthful and and the reason. for a proper is is once you tell them. then they'll decide okay if you're. willing this is what we're willing to do. for you well they Davis went to have. these proper sessions with the FBI and. the prosecutors and pertaining to.

me. if you were going to have a proper. session and you were going to tell. someone about someone else how many. Prophet sessions do you think it would. take for you to tell someone that story. and say let's say the prophet sessions. lasted two hours each two and a half. hours each how long you think it would. tell for you to explain it to someone. you you know uh how long do do you think. it may take I don't know it took him 29. of them he had 29 proper sessions Joe 60.

hours yeah to get his to get his story. straight about. supposedly uh how he gave me inside. information and in court he said I never. asked him for inside information one. time he he he quote voluntarily gave it. to me inside information as if as if I. would know what he was giving me was. inside information. uh he uh and in court he testified he. didn't think he was going to do one day.

in jail bottom line was uh embezzling. maturity filing a fraud and tax return. giving another man Insight information. all those things he wasn't going to do. one day in jail for any of them and uh. he was their only witness against me. Joe uh now my lawyers caught him and. a minimum of 25 lives he had I mean he. came out and Court I think on one. business trip he called 22 escort.

services well yeah I mean the guy the. guy off the rails no the guy that I. described to you that I met in 20002. 2002 the guy that used to own part of. the Dallas Stars and the Texas Rangers. and the guy that was this Ian heat gone. from that to this and drugs involved I. don't know a lot of alcohol is involved. I I don't know that but uh to give you. an idea how wacky this guy was a he. pleads guilty to a bunch of felles it.

wouldn't make no differ he played guilty. to 100 of them because they told him he. was convinced he wasn't going to do a. day in jail and they were going after. you oh yeah yeah and uh so anyway after. he does this to give you an idea how. wacky this guy was after he does this he. comes to Las Vegas and he throws a party. at the wi Hotel celebrating his deal. he's cut with the government he lost. another 50,000 gambling that's how. whacked out this guy was so anyway so. that was their only witness against me. Joe they had no other Witnesses against. me they had 60 days of wars on me how.

many you think they played in court zero. zero that's right the lead FBI agent in. the case who was in charge of the entire. Squad of the white collar crime. Investigation Unit New York his name was. David. Chavez uh when these stories were leaked. in the New York Times And The Wall. Street Journal our lawyers follow called. a complaint with the court. accusing uh the FBI and and the southern. district of of leaking thisinformation.

to the New York Times And The Wall. Street Journal they came back and denied. it said this never happened said we were. on a fishing Expedition that's what PR. bahara said we were on a fishing. Expedition but the judge to their. surprise I think he said something like. well these quotes are almost identical. to ones were made the grand jury see he. he orders an evident your. hearing which completely shocked them. because normally the judges are just a. rubber stamp form up there and and they.

just take their word we you know we. didn't have anything to do with this. there's no point in having a hearing. well this judge he did he said well we. need to have an evidential. hearing. so couple days before the hearing they. sent a letter over to the judge uh it's. a letter they they call it in camera. what that means is it's a private letter. that no one else can see see my lawyers. never got a copy of it but they send. this letter over to this judge they said. judge you know what we did do this said.

uh we uh David Chavez the head of the. white collar crme unit for the FBI in. New York he's the one who did it and. said uh yeah there were five other FBI. agents who were aware of it who were in. the meetings with him but they really. didn't anything to do with it it was. just him but he did it and uh and we. want to fess up but we want you to keep. this totally private we don't want. anyone to know anything about this it'll. hurt our reputation and and we recommend. that you hold him in contempt to court.

well our lawyers had found out that. there was a letter but they found out we. weren't they weren't telling us what was. in it so you know my lawyers were and. you know they got they filed a bunch of. motions and and to make for this judge. to make this letter public well finally. the judge didn't make the letter public. and uh the copy of the letters in my. book uh there were approximately 2,000. emails Joe they turned over five or.

six is what they turned over those. public emails are in my book too but let. me to give you an example of what those. emails. contain uh there's a guy who is a. journalist for the New York Times he's. still there his name is. protus and if his name is Ben protus and. if you look up all the stories he does. it's pretty easy to see you know he. writes stor is predominantly about cases. that involve the southern district in. New. York well in the one email that they.

turned over involving Ben protus Ben. protus had written a story about our. case and he was forced to do a redaction. or. correction and uh when he was forced to. do the correction he was upset about. this because the story had been given to. him by this guy David Chavez so he calls. this Chavez up and he said look he said. this the story you gave me I had to do. this redaction and he's he's complaining. to the. guy the guy says look you're on my radar.

screen now and said so's the New York. Times this an FBI agent threatening this. guy so this guy protest he calls up this. guy Zoel who's the number two in the US. attorney's office he's right under pre. Bahar and he tells him a whole story he. said you know I did a story I had to go. in do a correction he said I call this. FBI agent and he threatened me. threatened me and he threatened a New. York Times. this guy's o Bell he sends an email out. to the rest of people in the US. attorney's office or a number of people.

in the US attorney's office and he tells. them he recants exactly what happened. this guy protest calls him up that. email's in the book too okay. so there were five of those emails there. was another email in there where they. where they identify a lady who writes. for the Wall Street Journal her name is. Susan in polium she's still she's still. there she still writes for them if you. look at stuff she writes it's very. similar to Ben protus very they're all.

kind of government kind of stories. Chavez says he has a relationship with. her and the about line was you know like. my case if she were to call you up and. interview you things that she learned. about people he was investigating she. would pass it along to him. too that's and one of the emails they. turned over that's in my book also so. what happened is when these two stories. got leaked in the Wall Street Journal in. the New York Times at the same within.

seconds of each. other Tom Davis's name was in the first. one my my name was in there Phil. melson's name was in there Carl aon's. name was in there but they continued to. put to leak the stories in there and. then finally they got Davis's name in. there which when his name came in there. he gets mil shamer goes in denies it two. years later after they found out all. these other things he decides he isn't. going to he he will be a witness for. them in return he doesn't think he's. going to do a day in jail and he hires.

uh this lawyer up there who had worked. with him for eight years of. prosecutors it still takes him 29. meetings for him to get his story. straight so I go to court he's the only. witness against me okay uh they don't. play one wire tap but when I jury went. back Joe and by the way the FBI agent. Chavez was suspended from the FBI. uh the judge in our case referred his. case to the office of public Integrity. in Washington DC and he recommended he.

be charged with two felonies criminal. contempt criminal contempt and. obstruction of justice do you know what. happened to Mr Chavez he was allowed to. retire Joe with pay and he's never been. prosecuted for. anything oh so when the jury went back. and they convicted. me they they didn't know that there were. 60 days of Wars they didn't know that. the lead FBI agent for three and A2. years who had been doing this case had.

been thrown out of the. FBI and had been described with a judge. doing their case he said he should be. charged with two Fells they didn't know. any of that now uh in retrospect like I. say I had 31 months to think about this. our our case went on for a little over. three weeks we're in the winter in New. York weather is really bad you know they. stopped a trial 15 20 times a jury uh. they were sleeping and one guy snor.

allowed the judge stopped the trial so. you they'd already completely lost. interest and the and and the and the. cases about insider trading I mean uh a. lot of people don't understand stock. trading joe and you know they got cross-. sided up there with the lawyer showing. them graphs and all these type things. and uh the one guy on the jury had said. he said uh the next week he was going to. have to leave he couldn't stay on the. jury any longer he was going to go on a. trip so after the prosecution that.

wrapped her case up I had to make a. decision why I was going to why I was. going to testify or not my lawyer said. look said nobody can believe this guy. Tom Davis and he said there's no way. they can convict you if they can't. believe Tom. Davis and uh we had 23 Witnesses. prepared to. testify and we talked about it and the. lawyer said it's strictly your decision. you make you know said we're just. telling you we don't think that there's. any way they can convict you if you. don't.

testify uh so we end up putting five. witnesses on we put on three stock. Brokers that I did business with the. controller from our company and one and. a pilot who had flown who had flown me. and uh he was on there for one reason. there was an allegation I was in Texas. at a certain time and I wasn't and we. proved I wasn't anyway uh uh we arrested. our case and uh big mistake I should. have testified we should have put the. other people on regardless of whether.

the jury you know was bored or whether. they wasn't or whether the guy was going. to leave or whether he wasn't and the. other thing. that was another reason that uh I got. convicted and I'll go to my grave. believing this Phil. michelon uh was supposed to come and. testify he told me he would Phil melson. got involved in this case it was really. another screwy deal and I wrote about it. in a book and I only wrote about it in a. book because there was no way to tell. the story unless I explain my.

relationship with him but he' bought. stock in this company too and when the. SEC and. uh attempted to interview him he took. the Fifth Amendment and when I learned. he took the Fifth Amendment I said what. in the hell are you doing just tell the. truth I didn't realize it but he was. involved in another investigation a. money laundering investigation that had. been going on for a year that had. nothing to do with me and he was afraid. to testify with the SEC because he was. concerned they would ask him questions. about this money Monday laundering case.

now he had already given interviews to. the FBI and he' emphatically denied that. I'd ever given him any inside. information how do I know that I got a. copy of the. interviews uh that's another thing Joe. if. someone does an interview with the FBI. and they tell them something that ends. up getting you in trouble or you end up. getting indicted for that you never get. to see any of that as part of Discovery. but if you tell them something that.

basically proves a guy's. innocent you get indicted they have to. give you a copy of that it's called. Brady material well I got a copy of the. interviews I know exactly what he told. the. FBI and the same thing he told me he. told him and uh well the prosecutors. weren't about to call him because they. knew what he was going to. say uh he told me he would come and test. ify in the 11th hour he changes his mind. he says his lawyers told him not to come. and. testify well these stories that got.

leaked in the paper early on with him. myself and Carl ion everybody in the. world had read these stories about Phil. melson myself Etc everybody read that. Phil melson had give a million bucks. back he made in a stock trade well if. you're don't know anything about this. case and you see someone who's being. investigated for insider trading two. people you see one guy give a million. dollars back there's only two. conclusions you can come to either he's. innocent he gave the million bucks back.

or he bought his way out one of the two. but regardless it makes the other guy. look guilty as hell the guy who. supposedly gave him inside information. because why in the hell would a guy give. a million dollars back on the stock. trade if he didn't do something wrong or. he wasn't buying his way out right. that's what the average guy thinks right. that's what I would think right well. what they didn't realize was he gave. this money back money laundering case. that he was involved in he M he. miraculously gets dropped out of that. the guy that he wired the money to went. to federal prison.

too yeah so all that's in the book. that's the reason I had to write the. book Joe I mean the only reason he's in. my book he's in two chapters of 28 I. couldn't have written a book and told. this story without writing my. relationship in there with him the only. thing I wrote in there was what I had to. write in there I mean there are a lot of. things I mean that I didn't put in there. and and I'm not going to put in there I. only put the stuff in there that involve. our betting relationship our friendship.

and this issue with the SEC nothing more. nothing less anything else involved in. him or his personal life it's not in the. book and and uh I would have never put. it in the book so uh that's the. component you know about myself and him. and about the southern district about my. indictment and the only way I could have. told a story is is is is write a book. Arman when I decided to write this book. uh I have a fellow who who works with me.

advises me on a lot of things the guy's. got a lot of expertise in these areas. his name is Glenn Bunting and uh Glenn. recommended Arman Katan to me and Armen. uh worked with 60 Minutes for 8 years he. was a correspondent there he was with. CBS Sports I think for like 12 years. he's a highly highly well-known. extremely respected journalist he done. 12 books he won 12 Emmy Awards uh he did. the book on Tiger Woods uh so I wanted.

Arman involved in this because I had to. tell this story about my prosecution. about the southern district of New York. I had to tell the story about the. involvement of the New York Times The. Wall Street Journal but I had to have. someone who could write that story who. was a former investigative reporter and. Armen is and one of the absolute best in. the world but someone who no one would. question their. credibility and uh Armen and Glenn Bunny.

and our team did a magnificent job in in. helping me tell that part of the story. you know the rest of the book you know. it's pretty much it's it's in my words I. mean I had you know I wrote the vast. majority of the other but uh but I work. with a lot of great people uh in the. book I work again Armen Katan I can't. say enough good things about Armen but. Arman and explaining this story along. with Glenn bunting of the southern. district uh you'd have to understand. Glenn bunting's background too here are.

two people who worked at the highest. levels of Journalism but they've also. worked with government and prosecutors I. mean they worked and they know this. business inside and out and and and uh. you could ask either one they were they. frankly they were in. disbelief of what the facts were until. they confirmed what the facts were and. and Armen I think if I'm quoting Arman. correctly he said I've never seen. anything like this it sounds so dirty. yeah well it was what is that like to.

have giving up 31 months of your life or. something so gross what well Joe uh 31. months of your life when you're 71 years. old uh which very easily could have been. a life sentence yeah uh it was it was. rough I mean I left my wife at the time. we've been married this is our 48th year. of marriage but uh. you know I left her say goodbye and I. walked into a federal prison and uh and. I was like uh you didn't know if you.

were ever getting out I didn't know I. was ever getting out because again my. age you know uh also it's [ __ ]. dangerous yeah it is dangerous and I was. in with the this is another misnomer Joe. you know and this is one of the biggest. misnomers there is and this is the. reason I love you and I love your show. because you get a chance here to tell. your story you know we're not in sound. bites and we're not you know it's it's. not some BS orchestrated story out there. you know the uh I went to Pensacola.

prison and uh I'd hired a prison. consultant and I wanted to I was looking. for some place I could go to that my. wife could communicate you know not. communic could commute to reasonably and. uh while I was in prison she was in. Kentucky the majority of the time so it. wasn't a bad commute for her but they. also had a program there uh uh it's. called amp it's alcohol if if you've had. issues with alcohol in the past and you. qualify for this program you go through. it you get a year from your Senate so I.

thought I could possibly qualify for. that well I go there and there had been. a story written about this prison like. in 2008 and I think it was written by. either Barbara Walters or someone like. Barbara and they described this pris as. like a Country. Club and had swimming pools and the. people could play golf and anyway I'm. going to tell you the place that I went. to okay I don't know what it's was like. in 2008 but I can tell you what it was. like in 2017 and October the 10th when I. walked in there I I was in a dorm uh I.

was in a building was built in. 1960 and this this. building this is where Naval Airmen uh. used. to be housed I was in a room 18 by 22. with nine other prisoners on bunk beds. they have black mold all over the. walls uh there's no heat whatsoever in. this building I'm in Pensacola Florida. I'm not in Miami I'm in a concrete block.

building it's got chillers that run. 24/7 so in the winter there I mean you. can't imagine how cold you would get in. there uh there's 200 men on this. floor uh we had uh restroom on each side. of of the. entrance uh but you got you got 10 men. in 18 by 22 room and you got black mle. over the walls and you got no heat the. food in this place uh was just horrible.

uh there were prisoners who came down. who' been in multiple levels of federal. prisons every one of them said was the. worst food they they'd ever seen in any. place Medical Care there was uh it was. pitiful one of the doctors his nickname. was Dr Death I mean there was a guy. there that they diagnosed with h uh. with not hemorrhoid I think yeah. hemorrhoids and and he died of colon. cancer there's all I mean I could tell. you another story it's funny but it's.

not funny to give you an idea how how. bad the medical care was there's a guy. went in who he he had a place on his. face they told him come back they were. going to take it off it's like in. February guy goes back in this this. doctor. death takes takes a big thing off the. other side of his face the wrong side. uh he gets up and the guy he wishes him. Merry Christmas on the way out now we're. we're in the middle of February the guy.

put a big hole in the complete wrong. side of his face left the other face. that that that was one of the doctors. that was there so I got the flu when I. first went in there and I'm really sick. I mean really really sick and uh I got. so sick I've been in bed like 3 4 days. well I went down immediately to try to. get something for the FL they told me to. drink more water and to take aspirin and. I could get the aspirin out of the. commissary two days later I go down I'm. starting to have problems with my lungs.

I got chewed out for coming back down. again they gave me nothing luckily for. me there were some guys that were inside. the prison that gave me some things that. could help me hadn't been for that I'm. not sure I don't know what the outcome. of that would have been it it could have. been bad because I I was bedridden for. six seven days and I saw that on. multiple occasions so uh the good thing. about the place was there were no bars. you could you could walk around it you. know at certain times with total freedom. there was a track they had a place you.

could do weights uh the visitation there. was great until Co came. along and uh so you had you had plenty. of opportunities to have visits uh you. there weren't bars you had a track that. that was all good and uh but I can tell. you the medical care there the food and. the conditions themselves were horrible. I mean they were horrible and the people. who came down from from low and medium. security prisons they said they were.

much better in the prisons they came. from than they were there those. conditions were so that's a reason along. with the fact you know when uh when I. got out I had to do something about this. they just I mean it was just just but. that's a story that isn't being told. it's like I saw some guy the other day. got sent us to Pensacola and I saw the. story that some lazy journalist just. rewrote something they read that. somebody else put in there two or three. or four years ago that isn't accurate. and they describe this place as being.

some kind of country club you think it's. a country club partner you go down there. and check in and you go over there and. get you some of those boots that you're. forced to wear there are seconds that. are made in China I got a pair of boots. when I got there the second day I had. lost a toenail uh uh luckily for me at. the time there was a doctor there and I. went I went and saw this doctor and he. give me some some shoes that softer. Souls from what I understand they've. eliminated those today you have to wear. the boots that they give you there now. they're steel tow boots and and they're. not even good ones like I say the.

majority of them don't even fit the. people how do I know that I worked in. laundry myself and and and and I was the. one over there issuing that stuff and. then I went to the to the head of the. place and I said look these things are. horrible people are coming back their. feet are bleeding and everything else. finally they changed them out and they. got they got some that did fit better. but a I mean it just uh anyway it is. what it is is but look president isn't. supposed to be it's supposed to be a. punishment to a certain degree and it's. supposed to be a detriment and there's. no question about that and you're not.

supposed to go to some country club but. you should be able to go to some place. where you don't have to sleep next to. black mold and and if you do have a. medical issue you know and you truly do. have the flu and it's diagnosed by the. flu by them that you get something to. treat the. flu just the fact that you gave up 31. months of your life the fact you had to. go to that place and that now you know. all the actual details of the case you. know all the stuff that was withheld. that's got to be a tough pill to swallow. I mean that would make me very bitter.

Joe when I got out of federal preson and. give you an idea uh I was still under. home confinement I filed a federal. lawsuit in New York I sued the former. head of the. FBI I I sued prit Bahar the former US. attorney I sued David. Chavez I sued Dan Goldman who's now the. congressman up there and I sued uh or. five of them I sued oh zel the guy who. was a second to command up there at the.

US attorney's office I'm going to give. you an idea uh I filed a federal lawsuit. up there and the lawsuit speaks for. themselves and I laid out the. allegations of all the things that these. people did from my perspective do you. know that not one media organization in. New York even reported a lawsuit New. York Times New York Post the New Yorker. not one of those news organizations even. reported the fact that I had filed a. suit against these people we talking. about that's what bothers me forget.

about you know if I mean if somebody. files I don't care what kind of what the. suit is or what the allegations are I. mean it's news it's news yeah that the I. filed this suit it's in federal court. for eight months their only answer was. the statute of limitations ran out after. 8 months the judge threw it out uh I. would have had to file this Federal. lawsuit while I was in federal prisent. under Federal custody uh in order for.

for me to have filed it within the time. of the statute of limitations but the. fact that it didn't didn't even get. reported that I that I filed a suit and. made these allegations that's what. that's what puts a chill in me yeah how. can that happen CU it's dirty yep yeah. they all have. relationships um how do those lawsuits. all the lawsuits that you filed did how'. they pan out well the one I filed. against them got threw out because of. Statute limitations that ran and that. was really the only suit that I filed.

there was the only suit I could. file uh so there's no recourse no. there's no recourse no which is. unbelievable yeah well another thing Joe. after I was convicted uh once you're. convicted in the federal system uh. there's a department I forget what the. name of it is uh. but they work for the courts you go meet. this lady's name was Rebecca Dawson I. won't forget her name uh you go up you. spend a day they interview you they get.

all your background and and they they go. back check your background out. extensively uh and then they turn that. over to the judge with a recommendation. their. recommendation okay after they had. interviewed me they had thoroughly. investigated my background the. recommendation to the judge was to give. me a year and a day and a $10 million. fine the judge gave me five years and I. paid in fines and restitution 45.

million uh on top of that Joe I was. ordered to pay another $9 million for. Tom Davis's legal fees the guy who. testified against me Dean Foods for for. some uh unexplainable reason first part. of it understand the second part I don't. understand at all when he originally got. his. attorney uh they were paying his legal.

fees because he was on a board of. directors that part I understand okay. but after. he decided to become a government. witness and he plad guilty to a bunch of. things and one of them was you know. passed along inside information they. continued to pay his legal fees even. after that so his legal fees were like 9. million. bucks so they got a law firm came. forward filed the thing and the judge. ordered me and Tom Davis to reimburse.

Dean Foods for $9. million because this guy he's not going. to give him any money I paid the entire. $9 million. right so the Supreme Court comes along. later on and they rule that a portion of. those fees they weren't entitled to so. they they have to refund me the portion. of those fees. what do you think happened there Dean. fools goes bankrupt I got stiff on them. too I never got a Nick on my money. back so I'm glad you can laugh well Joe.

you know you got two choices of this I. wanted to tell a. story uh you know look I'm not the only. guy that's been through something. similar to this a lot of people go. through this they get out of prison they. say look man you know I just want it. over with uh you know I I don't want to. have a reoccurring problem with so and. so so and so who wants to piss off uh. powerful people okay uh I couldn't I I'm.

not cut out of that cloth by I'm I'm I I. actually did this more for other people. than I did for myself there's so many. people out there Joe that don't have the. resources they don't have the uh uh the. resiliency that I do they don't have the. support that I do and uh this is going. on today pner and this is going going to. continue to go on until the people who. make the laws do something about this. okay look the vast vast majority of the. people in law enforcement are great.

people and ie no and I agree with that. too the problem that you've got there. and I see this over and over and uh is. there are some bad ones like any. profession you have some bad ones okay. the problem I see there is when they. they don't the bad ones they have the. good ones turn to Blind ey to it they. don't do anything about it cuz they. don't want trouble they yeah and uh I. give you example in my case the guy that. worked with this guy. Chavez uh he blew the whistle on him and.

because of what he was doing prior to me. being indicted or anything else we. learned this through our. Discovery uh the guy blew the whistle on. him inside the FBI that guy got. transferred to some other part of the. United States when they promoted. Chavez yeah yeah uhhuh there it. yeah so but but again I I I get it I. mean I I've had people are very close to. me when I decided to write this book and. when I decided to sue those people in.

New York and uh uh you you know aren't. you worried about this aren't you. worried I said look I'm not worried. about nothing you know at the end of the. day I I can't live my life like that I. mean uh look I'm I'm not doing anything. illegal I'm not doing anything unethical. I'm you know but does that mean that. someone can't Target me for something. they target me for it I. mean we again that's the that's the. other problem I mean when so this guy. Chavez right.

uh okay they allow him to retire he gets. paid he doesn't get prosecuted okay what. kind of uh what can I do with Chavez I. can't do anything with Chavez I can't s. him I can't do. anything that's crazy yeah that's crazy. it really is crazy oh it's crazy you. know I've uh worked with uh Josh duban. who used to be a part of the Innocence. Project and now he's um he's doing some. things on his own and it's all about uh.

releasing people from jail that have. been uh unright unjustly prosecuted and. it's and you hear about these cases it's. all the time partner it's insane it's. insane so dirty our the publisher that. that that did my book Simon Schuster the. the editor there uh you know we were. talking one day we were talking about. the book and uh you know the book's it's. done very very well and we're proud of. that and uh but the book is everybody. would kind of think well the book's.

written about this guy as a professional. handicapper people want to know about. that they want to know about his. interest in life there well what they've. what what's actually come back you know. I think people care I think the. popularity of the book is more tied to. the human interest side of it is. anything else and the guy went on to say. he said Billy you know what the perfect. story is I said no he said well the. perfect story is is when when it when. the story is out there there's complete. silence he said in your case your story.

involves the FBI involves a New York. Times it involves a Wall Street Journal. it involves Phil Mickelson there's not. one of these people have refuted one. word you've said in this book I hadn't. thought about that you know and they. haven't because they you know it's all. factual it's all true and there's. there's no grounds to refute anything I. said in the book is that the most. corrupt thing that you've ever I mean. you're a guy who's been involved in. gambling your whole life which people. think of is like very shady business.

dangerous you're involved with all sorts. of unscrupulous characters is that the. most dirty thing you've ever been. involved with not even close no yeah not. it's not even remotely close yes it is. yeah wow yeah undoubtedly undoubtedly. which is crazy crazy because here guys. you've had your life threatened you I. read that you got you were in a trunk of. a car at one point in time what was all. that.

about uh it was in the early 80s Joe. before I moved to Las Vegas uh I had a. nightclub in Louisville it was called. Butch Cassidy zip it was a country music. joint you had to fight your way in fight. your way. out and uh anyway uh it was a day after. the Super Bowl and everybody everybody. owed I paid and of course most people. owed me they hadn't come by yet but we. we had some pop band there and I we. forgot what the door charge was five.

bucks 10 bucks whatever it was and I had. a pocket full of money it looked like a. lot of money but it was like 4,000 bucks. but it looked like 40 so I I leave the. joint it's like 4:00 in the morning and. I drive home and I'm living in a condo. and uh I pull up from the condo I didn't. have a garage and I pull up from the. condo and uh got out of the car car all. of once two guys with a ski mask on they. jumped out they were hidden down below. the the next car one of them had a. double barrel shotgun other one had a 45.

they stuck that shotgun next to my ribs. and 45 next to my head and uh and they. robbed me and uh so and the guy's got. the shotgun the old shotguns jumping up. and down I said man just calm down here. I said everything's cool here I'm trying. to cool him down see' what was so funny. I just got back from Vegas Joe and I. didn't tell this story in the book but I. get a chance to tell it here and I used. to play a lot of Poker out there and at.

the Golden Nugget there was a guy there. sold watches his name was Sam Angel and. he sold these uh these knockoff watches. I mean they look like they were. authentic as they could be you could buy. Rolex from him at the time for like 35. bucks and I had this Rolex watch it was. a knockoff it wasn't real but man it. look real well anyway they took my money. but they didn't touch that Rolex watch. so I mean it clearly it was an inside. job so they took me back of the truck of. the car and uh they said they open the.

trunk of the car they told me to get in. I I I first bought I said no upon I'm. not getting the trunk of this car and. they said look you get this trunk of. this car one of two ways either you're. going to get it on your own or you're. going to fall in so anyway I got in the. trunk of the car they closed the trunk. of the car so you your mind gets some. racing I figure well they pull out they. going to empty that double bar a shotgun. on me so I'm scrambling around I got the. tire loose and got behind you know the. spare tire car goes by I breathe a s.

relief they're gone all at once I. realized I'm in the trunk of this car. and this wasn't back when they had a. deal where you could open the trunk of. the car right and it was a Lincoln and I. I got panick in there I got thinking I'm. going smother in this in the trunk of. this car so I got a Tire Tool and I. tried to get the trunk open and you know. you're adrenaline I wasn't that strong a. guy but the adrenaline I bent this tire. to in half and that truck wasn't going. anywhere well finally I got to go. through the back seat there's some holes. in the back seat where they got speakers.

and stuff and I finally dug through. there and punched a hole in the backseat. of the car and I'm screaming I never did. wake my wife up but I woke up the next. door neighbor so he goes over wakes my. wife up so Susan comes out she figures. you know I come home the joint I'm drunk. in the back of the car right well anyway. she comes out she hears me in the back. seat she finally she opens the trunk. gets me out and uh but uh no. I I'm 99% sure I know who did it and uh.

but anyway uh it was a memorable. experience guess your whole life has. been a series of memorable experiences. sir true some yeah you're right one. thing about it Joe I got my money's. worth the uh. uh uh if if it weren't all in tomorrow I. didn't get short changed yeah I I mean. you've got a great book out and you've. got wild stories and you seem to have. your peace of mind oh I do which is. amazing considering what you've gone. through especially with the trial what.

they did to you it's amazing that you're. so relaxed and so calm and so at peace. and that that speaks to your character. Joe my oldest son when he was seven. years old uh was diagnosed with a. terminal brain tumor he was given 30. days to live and uh uh that changed my. life and and uh I was a young guy at the. time God all the time as I wrote about. in the book and completely focused on. you know making money you know and uh I.

went through that and it uh it changed. my life and and uh you know as a result. of that I got involved with working with. intellectually challenged people I got I. got introduced to an organization Las. Vegas called Opportunity Village and uh. and it's strictly an organization that. works with intellectually challenged. people and uh that's been one of the. most fulfilling things that's ever. happened to me so you know it's uh every. negative thing that's ever happened to.

me in my life everyone something. positive has came out of it and uh that. involving my son Scott who who uh who. the grace of God's still alive today. defied All Odds but that changed my life. it made a lot better man out of. me yeah that's awesome uh Billy tell. everybody the title of the book where. they can get it and is there an audio. book available there is did you read it. unfortunately I read it Joe you left you.

you'll left to listen to so rusy voice. the I want I want you to read it it's. your story I like it to be in your voice. well the publer tra me uh the book's. called Gambler a secet seers for a life. at risk uh but back to the audio book. part of it the uh the publisher trapped. me he said would you try to do this he. said uh most people can't do it and. course that's all they had to do was. tell me that and uh so I'd had my a. partial knee replacement and so I go in. this studio a couple weeks later I got a.

earphones on like we have now I got a. producer I got my got my NE all propped. up in my chair with ice on it and I'm. doing the uh the audio portion of this. book you've probably done a number of. them but you know the part of the book. that I wrote the part of the book that's. in my words I had no problem with it at. all the part of the book in there that. others wrote and there were words Ed. that I don't use every day sometimes i'. I'd have to repeat those paragraphs two.

three four times the second day it took. me 40 days uh 40 hours to do this thing. the publisher she started laughing she. said it's so obvious you know you would. never use certain word you know you but. it was a it was an experience uh I'll. never forget it I'm glad I did do it uh. but Simon The Schuster is right there's. very few people probably will it because. it's it's not an easy thing to do no. it's not an easy thing to do but that. sounds like your whole life yes sir yeah. well listen Billy I appreciate your time.

I appreciate you coming in here and uh I. appreciate you writing your book and uh. I'm glad you did I I really am I'm I'm. glad I got a chance to sit down and talk. to you well thank you thank you for. having me I I really appreciate it and I. have nothing but the utmost respect for. you what you're do thank you very much I. appreciate that all right bye everybody. bye. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].