Joe Rogan Experience #2091 - Diana Walsh Pasulka

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day it's a it's it's a scary podcast for. me cuz I feel like you're because I know. a lot of the things that you've said and. I've related to them and I've said okay. this makes sense why is that. scary okay so it's scary because it's. not consensus reality and you know.

because it's not consensus reality we. could talk about it over hot chocolate. in the you know near a fire or something. but here we're talking about it and lots. of people are going to be listening yes. so that is somewhat yeah scary that's. the hurdle that we all have to get over. and the the good thing about this is it. really is just us talking right you know. and there are a lot of people that are. going to listen but they're just people. too that's true and they've probably had. these experiences some of them have yeah.

yeah the the experiences are that are. available through. psychedelics that I've always wondered I. mean the thing that has always struck me. about the UFO experience particularly. the abduction experience is that it. always happens when people are asleep it. always happens at night it either. happens on the road when people are. tired and it's late at night or it. happens like why does it have to happen. at night the universe doesn't give a. [ __ ] what where the sun is and position.

to the planet like that doesn't make any. sense that all these UFO Abduction. experiences would happen only when the. sun is on the other side that's so dumb. it makes no sense it's literally it's. such an egocentric Earth Centric. perspective that and not even Earth. Centric hemispherical Centric right it. depends on where the sun is in position. to the Earth for that to be the only. time the UFOs come I was always like.

this seems like horseshit there's. something about it that seems like. horseshit but there's also something. about it that seems real when you listen. like Betty and Barney Hill when they're. they're talking boy that sounds like. people talking about a real thing boy. that sounds like a real experience it. really does and these people like the. whitly sters these people that talk. about these experiences that happen at. night we know for a fact that when you. are sleeping your brain is producing.

endogenous psychedelic chemicals we have. no idea why we have no idea what the. purpose of those things are we have no. idea what the quantity is we we used to. think until recently um they weren't. even exactly sure like where was being. produced but now uh through Stan's work. and through the work of the Cottonwood. Research Foundation the the the people. that do those DMT studies they know that. now your brain is producing this and so. is your brain uh is it a is it producing.

a chemical Gateway into another. dimension and is that why these people. are experiencing these abduction you. know air quote abduction experiences. these these encounters let's say. encounters is that why they're happening. at night is that why they're happening. while they're lying in bed because that. seems to make way more sense yeah that's. a great question I can talk a little bit. about this please okay so I think that. can we I think we're starting weird.

let's can we just start with how did you. get involved in this okay and please. just tell people your background okay. sure so I'm a professor of religious. studies at the University of North. Carolina in Wilmington and I grew up in. California and I've always I've always. been interested in these experiences but. religion and also I grew up I was going. to graduate school during the.com boom. so I saw how technology was changing. everything our schools were the first to. adopt computers and that type of thing.

so what I did was um I was very. interested in I was working you know. what your parents you tell them you want. to study religion and they're like why. not be a doctor right so um I was going. to college but I kept taking courses in. religion and philosophy and when I got. out I got a job doing technology and. things like that and I made all right. money but I still read about religion. and philosophy so I figured if I could. get scholarships to continue that I. would and I kept getting scholarships. and that's how I got my PhD in religion.

uh in in religious Studies by the way we. actually we're not ministers or anything. like that we don't advocate for any. religious tradition we study them and. since most people in the world are. religious in some way it's it's a good. thing to know um but how did I get into. studying UFO so I studied Christian. history and that's what I did for a long. time until I was what's called a full. Professor you can't go any higher you're. full Professor that's it and um I start. I studied these things called Ascent. narrative narratives so asent narratives.

are when people levitate in the you know. Christian tradition people either. levitate or they have uh they see things. that they call Angels or demons and. things like this and I always studied. them from a historical perspective and I. found that going through looking at. these Ascent narratives through the. historical record at the Vatican. actually I kept coming across aerial. phenomena in the historical record from. a thousand years ago from 500 years ago. from you know very recently and I.

recognized that this was happening in in. UFO literature and so I started to look. at abductions and UFO sightings and. things like that and I I wanted to do a. crosscultural analysis of this um and. that was in. 2012 and that's how I got into this I. just want to point out that not all. abductions happen in your sleep a lot of. abductions actually happen in daylight. um but I do agree with you that. something's happening in your brain and. you're you're perceiving something and.

you called it is there some type of. mental Gateway and I think there's. absolutely a mental Gateway um does this. discount that these this is objective of. us like you know the question is is this. something subjective or this is this. something objective of us my opinion at. this point is it's something that is. objective of us um there's there's. something that we're accessing and I. don't think it's it's within our. space-time reality. um to tell you the truth so you think.

it's from somewhere else I do um but. that doesn't I mean it doesn't have to. be a location you know a geography right. that's where it gets weird it gets. totally weird but so does quantum. physics quantum physics is totally weird. it's the weirdest stuff ever yeah and. it's completely accepted that you could. have something that exists in one place. and also at another place that's now. itely still yeah the Nobel Prize in what. was it 2022 was about that yeah which is.

like what are you saying you're saying. witchcraft is real like what what are. you saying magic is real quantum physics. is the nuttiest stuff of all time I've. had a hundred people explain it to me I. don't get it still yeah well see okay so. you were talking about accessing this. this space and if I can go back to. something you were talking about about. and I'm going to say this so what I. found was and I had this experience too. when I was around 13 years old I felt. like the the world was going to end I.

felt like there was going to be some. kind of war and it was a visceral. feeling it wasn't something that it was. something that made me depressed as a. child and it it was real I believed it. was going to happen and I I believed it. was going to happen at any time um well. this after studying religion and. studying by the way this kind of. prompted me into to studying religion. and recognizing that you know if you. look at say Christianity or even other. religions people people had ideas that.

the world was going to end and. Extinction events have happened and. things like that so it could very well. be that information like this is coming. to us but it's out of our SpaceTime so. to us it seems like it's going to happen. now because our sense is of linear time. right so if we get a feeling and it's. not from any of the input that we're. getting like our you know people telling. us this is actually going to happen the. news telling us this is actually going. to happen but it's coming to us is this. feeling that you and I were just talking.

about um it could be coming from that. space that we've just identified as you. know people are talking about um and and. yeah I think that we're at the very. beginning of doing a taxonomy or you. know looking at this space in terms of. the scientists that you just referenced. and people that you I think that. actually people have you know indigenous. cultures talk about this space they have. language about this space I talk talked. about this in encounters that you know.

religious Traditions do talk about these. spaces but in secular culture we've lost. that. language well it's it is interesting. that that language exists when you're. discussing things like quantum physics. because that is a language of like you. know it's a. bizarre. non-tangible impossible to understand to. the to the lay person when you're. explaining that these things are all.

interacting with each other without. physical contact like what do you like. what do you mean like what are you. saying like can you show me these things. there photos of them no we're just. drawing we're writing it down on paper. we're pretty sure we have these. equations and we know what it is like. what yeah yeah like why am I supposed to. believe you cuz you guys are phds like. what this is nuts like but because this. is like an a field of science this is a. a field of study that's universally.

accepted we have we've like given them a. pass to talk about crazy stuff but if. you want to talk about crazy things in. terms. of. encountering some sort. of thing some entity some Consciousness. that exists in an alternative realm that. has access to this realm occasionally or. perhaps that you can.

transcend your normal State of. Consciousness and access this other. realm occasionally through some methods. whether it's through meditation through. psychedelic trips through something. near-death experiences something happens. that perturbs the normal state of. reality and you have brief access to. this Transcendent experience that. everyone has talked about all of the. great prophets all all of the the great.

Saints and religious figures have talked. about from the beginning of written. history yeah so I think that it's not. just that we give those physics guys a. pass and girls okay we just don't what. they produce actually is creates our. world right the computers we look at and. the Technologies we use even the. structures we live in and so this is.

what prompted me to go back into our. historical record like and look at like. the writings of Plato again and some of. you know some of these people that. you're talking about like the the great. minds right and I recognize that say. Plato who writes about his mentor. Socrates he's by the way killed by his. country you know he's killed by Athens. the uh town he lives in not the town but. the state he lives in and he's he's uh. he's exec uted um for being an atheist.

by the way and if you look at what he's. talking about he's actually talking. about this space he's actually talking. about having a vision of something that. we can't see and he calls it the good. and he says it's it's the best thing. okay and he says it it makes you do. things that are just and you don't do. them because they're the right thing to. do you do them because you really want. to do them and so to me this is I. thought this was fascinating so I went. back and I recogniz that he was what's.

called a math realist so he believed. that and he was one of the first people. well not just him but people you know. were talking about the you know 300s. before the Common Era so many many many. years ago he's already identifying these. things called platonic solids that now. we can prove exist but we we weren't. able to prove them so he was using and. he even has this language too Joe he has. this language he says that we can.

actually we can actually perceive these. through our minds but it's not normal. intellect it's not your normal abstract. thinking but it's a type of thinking and. he relates it to protocols like physical. protocols like did you know he was a. wrestler no I didn't yeah oh I did know. that yeah I'm sorry in fact his name. even means that he's really not just a. wrestler but an awesome wrestler so. Socrates that name no no PL oh sorry.

yeah these guys were all physical they. were all they it was basically this like. philosophy almost like a Fight Club I. think these guys you know they were like. they were wrestlers and you know they. believed that this was good they. believed that these protocols help. helped them use their brains to access. this the. good um so what was the methodology. behind that was it the breaking down of. the normal States Of Consciousness.

through rigorous exercise and exertion. that's my opinion like a runner's high. yeah that's my opinion yeah so I when I. talk about it because I like to teach my. students about this because I honestly. think that this is what progresses. civilization this kind of thing so I. think um when I did American Cosmic. which is the first book about UFOs again. which I never thought I'd be studying I. encountered this man Tyler and um and. he's he works for the space force and.

he's been working for the space force. since the the whole space shuttle. program okay and he's a special kind of. person he's a mission controller but he. does a lot of other things too but he's. also a multi-millionaire space rocket. scientist I mean just so strange and and. I called him Tyler after the character. in Fight Club because that's who. reminded me of he reminded me of that. character in Fight Club because he had. this first of all he is more than 44. patents and they're all related to space.

and and the space force has a special. place for him like he's special right. what I found was that he was practicing. these types of protocols I call them. protocols because they reminded me of. Plato and monastic Traditions the. traditions of monks and things so um he. would make sure that he got sunshine he. would make sure that he got plenty of. sleep um he would not have too much. caffeine um he exercised IED a lot uh he.

boxed right so he was also a fighter and. he tried to stay away from people I know. it sounds weird but that's what monks do. they try to stay you know they try to. like monitor their input of people. because those people can actually take. them off their game or something like. that but so this guy was put into a. another mental state and during this. mental state he said that he could. receive calculations he could receive. information he could receive things and. then he C he could gather a group of.

scientists and he wouldn't tell them. where he came from because he honestly. thought they were coming from um these. things outside of SpaceTime kind of like. ETS or something off-planet. intelligences which Tesla also believed. and our the people who started our own. space force believed it so this isn't. common knowledge that's what I found is. like a lot of people aren't they don't. know this history of the American space. force and the Russian space force very. much the same these people were doing. these things and this allowed them you. see this in sports right so people I was.

just using this example in a class. yesterday um I saw this basketball game. two or three years ago with Steph Curry. and you know the way they were playing. it was almost as if there was an. emergent phenomena that was bigger than. each of the people because they somehow. anticipated what the other guy was going. to do and I I used to do Sports and I. know that this is something that can be. done and there's a flow state right and. I think that this is what Plato was. trying to get his his group into through.

these. protocols well that makes sense it's and. one of the things that happens in flow. state is that you stop being there. that's right yeah it's not you yeah and. you're just experiencing this thing. totally yeah yeah you you experience it. on stage doing. standup when you do it right when you. get it right you're on a ride like. you're just like sort of like making. sure that okay feed this into the. machine and go and it goes and and.

you're sort of like you're in tune with. what you're saying but you're almost. outside of yourself that's exactly right. and you know there is science that shows. that this is the. case right with with brain waves yeah. the problem is is that they're like when. Joe's out there on stage they're not. going to hook you up to a an MRI right. they can't do that kind of because when. it's happening it's happening. spontaneously it just happens and no one.

can actually predict when it's going to. happen but you hope that it happens and. also if they did hook you up to it you. would also be aware that you're being. monitored and would change the St you. lose it yeah you'd lose it yeah it's. like when you're in a a lucid dream and. you go oh my God I'm in a lucid dream. and then wake up yeah damn it I've had. that happen so many times like wow I. know there's a way to um facilitate. lucid dreams I know there's a study. behind it but I've never for whatever. reason it seems so stupid that I've. never done it but I've never even had.

the desire to do it I just like want it. to come to me when it comes to me which. is dumb necessarily that's I I respect. that yeah but part of me doesn't part of. me is like you're just lazy why don't. you just like go like start the practice. and study it and figure out how to make. it happen more. often you know but for whatever reason I. have zero desire to do that I don't know. why I I there might be some wisdom there. I don't know yeah I I go back and forth.

with whether or not it's laziness I. don't know what it is you know but. there's there's obviously uh a. fascinating aspect to lucid dreaming to. like what is going on there like how are. you oh definitely managing this weird. thing that for most of us you wake up. you go God what the hell was that what. why was Godzilla in my dream you know. why I was on a skateboard that's right. it's just like weirdness to it and then. there's people that try to interpret. that with uh like far too much.

confidence yes I think so too I think so. too so in um in Tibet there's a Tibetan. dream yoga and that's what they do they. basically teach you how to do and you. have to have a teacher by the way. because they say it can be. dangerous yeah so I think that's. probably why you think you're not doing. it because I don't think you're lazy. frankly like I know the kinds of things. you do I know that that's not part of. yeah but I am lazy that's what's crazy. well I really am I'm lazy but I'm.

disciplined okay I'm both of those. things like I do all the things that I'm. supposed to do but God it's a sludge. it's a struggle it's like but I always. do. them okay well that's that you you'd be. up for Plato's he he'd invite you to his. school the only time things are not a. struggle is when like like when I was. competing when I was competing then my. discipline wasn't a struggle. then it was an obsession so it was like.

people say God he's so disciplined like. no I'm mentally ill I'm crazy yeah I. understand there's a giant difference. between discip like Mike Tyson said this. on the podcast he said discipline is. doing something you hate but doing it. like you love it that's right yeah so. when you love it it's not really. discipline no it's not it's Obsession ex. yeah and there's a different thing to. that that's what I was telling you about. when I saw your picture out there of uh. Jimmy Hendrick yeah and I was when I was.

a kid I was an artist I really likeed to. do art and I remember the first time I. became obsessed was when I was doing. this this drawing of Jimmy Hendrick. and I I was uh I went it went on for. about a week and my parents were like. what are you doing you know and I was I. was just obsessed with getting it. correct it had to be absolutely correct. and I did get it correct and it was. pretty amazing and I gave you have it no. I I always give stuff away do you have a. photo of it or anything no no no this.

was like pre- cell phones so I gave it. to my best friend and I don't I don't. regret it that's cool yeah but I mean it. was the experience though that was the. best part of it yeah I the reason why. this podcast is called The Joe Rogan. Experience is because I think Jimmy. Hendrick is a religious figure he is he. absolutely is I think I mean the guy. died at 27 which when I was 27 I was a. [ __ ] [ __ ] I had never done anything. good this guy had transcended the normal.

boundaries of what music was and had. tapped into something whatever it was. but when you listen to Voodoo Child to. this day I've listened to that song. thousands of times but like if I'm on my. way to go do something cool and I listen. that song like loud in my car it's just. like it's it's there's he t into. something that was just out of this.

realm inaccessible to the average person. that plays a guitar inaccessible to the. average artist he hits some crazy. vibration and I've always got that. feeling when I listen to his stuff it's. it's always like moved me in a very. weird way where I'm just completely. captivated like immersed in the sounds. immersed in his in his music. me too um so he I think he well he knew.

that he was doing that so he as you know. I'm sure you know this but um you know. he had a guitar when he was five and he. he was so good at it he was immediately. like he it he streamed sacred. information through his music and he. knew he did he called it his electric. Church yeah so he knew he did that and. um how incredible and yes we can hear it.

and I think and I think I think probably. part of the reason I I felt that when I. listen to his music and I somehow put. that into his that picture that that. drawing that I made and and it last and. it was a beautiful experience and that. was you know I mean I sounds so strange. but that's part of the reason why I was. interested in studying religion and. things like that because of of that. experience yeah that you're tapping into. something that's higher than normal.

Consciousness yes and it's pretty cool. yeah it's exactly what Plato said it was. it's it's you do it for its own sake you. don't do it for anything else you do it. because of it you don't do it because. after this I'm going to make up a lot of. money or you know after this uh it'll. make my parents happy or after you don't. do it for those reasons you do it for in. and of itself well the people that I. know that do do it for those Reasons I'm. going to be famous I'm going to be this. I'm going to be that they never make it. there's something about it they just.

don't they just don't maybe some of them. will become pop stars like someone will. plug them into the right songwriter and. the right producer and and they'll. figure it out but it'll never be. Transcendent it might be catchy it might. be okay but there's not it's not. Hendrick No No Yeah Yeah there that that. kind of what we like to call genius like. what what is that but it's not I mean. clearly it's him he's a vessel he's a a.

receiver an antenna whatever he is but. he's getting something from a higher. state no doubt and the wildest thing. with people what I always want to tell. people about hendris and a lot of the. particularly impactful people from the. 1960s is that you have to understand how. different the 60s were from the 50s like. the difference between 2014 and 2024 is.

nil there's very little difference other. than the ubiquitous uh technology AI. things that are much more powerful than. they ever were before the impact of. social media but there was an impact of. social media even 10 years ago right. there's. something about the 60s that were very. different than the ' 50s and I connected. to psychedelic use cuz all of those. those people were doing psychedelics all. of them all those transcended people all.

the Beatles When The Beatles from their. early days to the Psychedelic days let. like completely different band like. completely different style of music yes. that's right yeah completely different. impact there was something about it what. what what had happened in the 1960s was. a a stunning revolution in culture yes. and it's hard for us to understand it. because we didn't we weren't teenagers. when that was happening you know I was I. wasn't even born when Hendrick was in. his prime or it was just you know a baby.

when you listen to that now it's hard to. put it into context of how revolutionary. that was I think you're right I for most. people I think that's unless you lived. through it right and yeah and that's. also the terrifying aspect of what. government can do because through the. sweeping psychedelics Act of 1970 they. made everything illegal and they did it. to squash descent they did it to stop. the Civil Rights Movement the anti-war.

movement and they did it to so that they. could arrest all these people that were. involved in all these groups because all. of them were involved in. drugs and so they figured well this is. the best way to just make everything. it's obviously these people are doing. acid and ruining our country let's let's. make everything illegal and then lock. everybody up that does it and then you. get the 80s and the 80s is like this. confused. child that was raised improperly was.

then cast out into the world with a. distorted sense of values that was like. expressing these values in like some of. the most clumsy and Goofy art human. beings have ever done and the drugs. changed MH yeah right they became ego. driven drugs the worst kind of drugs so. you know it's really interesting because. that wouldn't be the that the 60s. wouldn't be the only culture that's. informed by psychedelics right or enens. you know as they're called and Native.

American churches or you know that but. what's interesting to me and I don't. know if you have any ideas about this is. that most likely it was through the. government that the drugs became. available sure yeah and then once the. effects seemed to be counter to how who. knows maybe there were just two factions. of government one that was Pro you know. let's see what happens you know let's do. this experim. and then the other was you know push.

back and you know let's let's change the. the you know change the culture through. taking you know making these. illegal but what you see now is you. definitely see a uh you know using these. for therapeutic purposes. MH yeah the um the MK Ultra experiments. when you realize what the government was. involved with and what they were doing. how they were running the hate ashur. free clinic and they were administering.

psychedelics to people in brothel. without their knowledge and and. observing them and and what they did. with Charles Manson that's very well. detailed I don't know if you've read um. Tom O'Neal's book chaos you read that. yeah insane yeah I know it's insane. because Tom is so detail oriented I mean. he's so crazy that he studied this one. thing for 20 years like and really kind. of like tanked his life you know and. finally got the book out there and the. book is just holy [ __ ] yeah because it's.

what what the facts the absolute. undeniable facts in that book just those. alone forget speculation forget Theory. just the facts alone are insane they. most likely created Charles Manson most. likely gave him psychedelics gave him. LSD taught him how to mind control. influential young people or uh easily. influenced young people and get them to. do horrific things and demonize the. hippie movement yeah it makes you wonder.

doesn't it yeah like what's going on. right now that's exactly what I think I. don't think there is good right now I. think right now they're they're baffled. by this thing called the internet and I. think the internet threw a giant monkey. wrench in propaganda because it it made. people so much more resistant to. [ __ ] and and then the when you see. things like especially coming out of the. pandemic when you see how incompetent. these people that are supposed to be.

leaders are and how fool hearty they are. and how stupid their decisions were and. then you just look at the undeniable. transfer of wealth to the. upper small area of the country that. gained billions of dollars in wealth and. how much it devastated small businesses. and like did you guys do this on purpose. like do you know what you're doing are. you idiots like why are you telling us. what to do you guys are fools and. especially when it comes to like is does.

anybody believe that Joe Biden's ever. had a Transcendent experience does. anybody believe that Joe Biden has ever. like met God and and came back with a. message for mankind no it's like. everything is like bizarre ego driven. narrative driven lies and propag and. just nonsense that's supposed to make it. look like they're doing the right thing. always yeah that's that that's a. terrible idea of Justice yes but it's.

the appearance of Justice without. actually doing the right thing yeah and. it's it's it's just I mean it's also. very it's got all the aspects of a cult. all the people that go along with it no. matter what the evidence shows that. people the people that aren't like. stepping back and going wait a minute we. are we are being run by people that have. zero feelings for the the actual. populace and all they're trying to do is. feed this machine that's got them to. where they are in the first place yeah.

it's uh terrible it's terrible and it's. it as it moves forward it creates the. need for resistance and it creates the. and that that's what I've always thought. about evil and negative things in the. first place like they are necessary. because they motivate change and they. motivate Evolution they motivate. expression of of of disdain of.

of people that are completely displeased. people that are very upset with the way. things are they know this is the wrong. way yeah and it. motivates the the the Zeitgeist to move. into a different direction which I think. is happening I hear that um this was a. actually a comment from a student the. exact same comment that you just said is. that you know there's this structural. evil right there's this evil and it. actually does some good in the sense. that it motivates people to transform.

yes. okay I mean yeah I agree with you um and. I'm at the same point so through through. my looking at the UFO phenomena and you. know I knew all of this I'm I grew up in. Northern California you know there were. there were the uh The Grove the um I. can't think of the name it's right above. where I live um the Bohemian Grove you. know so I kind of already had an idea of. this kind of thing um you know of the.

the group The Cult as you call it yeah. all right and it's easy to see um well. for those who have who can see it it's. easy to see some people don't want to. see it right okay so once you see it. you're like okay um but then to live it. to this is what I felt like happened to. me so in 2012 after I started the study. of UFOs I recognized that the management. of that that message of the UFO for the. American public had been organized not.

just from the 1940s but really from. earlier from the from early 20th century. and once I started to recognize and even. meet the people who were responsible for. managing this in a very cohesive tight. way very specific that's when I. recognized that it was that you know I. felt I felt it I guess that's the. difference was that before I just saw it. on the sideline you know like we talk. about it now you and I and it looks like. we're talking about it from the sideline.

we're saying yeah this is really bad. what they're doing and stuff but I was. part of it I I saw it I I know those. people they talked to me about it they. talked to me about why they were doing. it and they said Diana you you don't. want to help these people they would. kill you if they if they you had. something that they wanted like these. are not good people is what they were. saying about these people specifically. the general population they were talking. about the general population the general. population would kill you that's what. they were saying they were saying that. these people only do good because they.

have to do good they are actually bad. and so this was the argument I was. getting so it so it caused me to eject. these people from my life for one but. also to to do you know to understand. more deeply and believe me I've already. thought a lot about the problem of evil. you know I've spent my life reading. about it and doing you know talking. about it with people and you know what. can we do I recognize we can't do. anything except work on ourselves and.

that's where I had to reread some of. those texts like the Plato text that I. talked about who he talks about your. idea of evil that you know perhaps or he. calls it Injustice unjustice um and he. says that perhaps people are unjust just. because you know there needs to be. Injustice for other people to like. recognize it and then to do this thing. you know how do we create a just Society. that's his question right and I don't. think he so he doesn't actually answer.

that question with words but he does it. through giving stories and one of the. stories is the allegory of the cave. where you know that allegory it's it's. like the Matrix right it's like you know. where people are in they're being tied. up and there's puppeteers who are. showing them these Shadows on the wall. and they take that for reality but. somehow some person gets out and they. see well what he's talking about is this. mystical tradition that you and I have. talked about earlier when we started. talking we talked about if we do those.

things that we love and we're carried. away and we become you call you said it. was obsessed you know you're obsessed. with it and I call it doing it because. it's pretty awesome right that's my word. for it yeah when you do that Justice. happens like you're not worried about. you know so so we so it's almost like a. an emergent phenomena from these. communities that do it and they're small. communities so there is structural. Injustice and there's structural EV evil. and it doesn't seem like we can fight.

that's what I learned from doing the UFO. I I learned that there were these things. UFOs but more intensely and more. personally I learned that the government. was doing this and that's what was. upsetting to me most so I want to take. it back to that because a lot of this is. probably hard to follow for people that. aren't like well read in this when you. say that they have been. engineering or orch rating public. perception of this experience from the.

beginning what's the earliest known. instance of this okay so the one that is. unclassified is Project Blue Book and. that's from 1950s 1952 but I know that. and I and and I have to explain how one. knows this so we have documents that. talk about Project Blue Book and that's. the manage you know they're managing the. perception the public perception of UFOs. goes back to like 47 even with Roswell. and and that kind of thing um there's.

another and this is what this is what. I've found is that there's an oral. tradition that is part of the. communities that run this run these. programs like the UFO programs right um. and that it that information is carried. within people it's not written down even. have a word for not writing it down when. they're going to have these meetings.

they they have this special term and. everybody puts down everything you know. what's the term I don't it's called it's. called pencils up pencils up yeah so. pencils up means they're just going to. discuss these things and then the that's. the only record of it it's yeah it's the. oral tradition now why I was able to. look at this is because I had done work. looking at Oral traditions in religion. ious in religious communities like oral. Traditions go back 10,000 years whereas.

you know written Traditions are like. 2,000 years old oral Traditions are. actually more accurate than we think. they are we tend to think of it as. telephone. game um but you can get a lot of. information from oral traditions and. this is actually how a lot of classified. information is kept through oral. tradition especially in a very. disciplined and structured environment. like high level military yeah. so so they have a perception and one of.

the things that you said earlier is that. they think that the the the greater the. the greater population is not good and. that they will turn on you and that. they're evil and well that's one faction. so what I found was that there were. several different factions within the. perception management of. UFOs and one of the factions was. responsible for sadly harassing people. who do research and I found this out by. being harassed how how so how were you.

harassed okay so you know here I am just. your average Professor doing their work. and you know and doing it pretty well um. at my University uh I was the chair of. my department um well regarded by my. colleagues and students and never really. doing anything weird right um and then I. start to study UFOs thinking that. they're not real thinking that it's a. it's just a form a new form of religion. and then quickly having people come into.

my sphere research sphere who are you. know part of CIA part of FBI that kind. of thing and then getting a shock that. you know whoa this could be dangerous. and maybe I shouldn't be doing this and. thinking you know but just simply. because those people are contacting you. or specific reasons why you would think. it's dangerous it indicated to me that. there was something that I shouldn't. maybe be doing that it could be. dangerous right that you could suffer.

consequences for your curiosity or for. your research yeah and that they would. punish you or you could be punished or. you could be targeted yeah no most. certainly and plus I had done some. research on UFOs by that time of course. and but what is it about the research. and what is about what you could. possibly uncover that would be so. dangerous okay so of course that's a. question that's loaded so I'm going to. talk a little bit. about I'll answer it in part okay so in.

part this is before crash retrieval. became a term that Congress used right. so I was um what year are we talking. about so I started in 2012 okay by 2015. and 16 I was already in full shock mode. of wow this is bigger than I thought and. I was had been invited to go to a crash. retrieval spot in New Mexico uh that was.

under a nfly Zone and I still didn't. believe though in UFOs at this point you. have to understand that so I did I just. thought that this I thought the person. inviting me is Tyler he's a scientist he. works for the space force um he believes. this and I'm wondering how does he even. believe that this is real we're we're. we're going with Gary Nolan who's from. Stanford and he's out um but at the time. I called him James in my book. and I'm I'm the one actually who invited. him to go CU I didn't really want to go.

by myself you know and so I insisted. that Gary go with me and Tyler figured. out who Gary was and he said okay so we. went out there we had to actually wear. blindfolds and it was out in the middle. of this place in New Mexico I don't know. where um I know what was near it but I. don't know where the actual place was. and we were looking for parts right that. had been put out there and during the. time period so I think part of it was. the danger was that Parts exist right so.

things like this do exist and there are. anomalous materials uh this is what I. was finding out and I think that this is. what I'm a okay researcher it's not like. I would make this up nor would I lie um. you know I'm I'm publishing with Oxford. so uh my reputation is at stake right so. I'm doing the best I can to kind of. adjudicate like am I being fed. disinformation or you know what's going. on Gary now will be able to identify by.

taking these parts back and analyzing. them through his Laboratories um whether. or not they're engineered or not and um. and he's been doing that ever since so. these are the kinds of things that I. would have found out I think part of it. was also that I was finding out that. there was an oral tradition and that the. perception management was very tight and. I think this is what they were afraid. but I've said this now publicly. so but I did get harassed though I did.

get harassed and it still happens how. did you get harassed most of it is um. doxing and uh email harassment at my. University began and um both to me and. Gary at the same time and people showing. up um people yeah people in my town. showing up like what kind of people. schizophrenics. no but no but people you wouldn't want. to meet yeah loons yeah you think that's.

targeted you think that's purpose for. sure but but do you think that also that. might just be people that are obsessed. with this particular subject these are. people that are affiliated with people. in those the okay yeah I mean there's no. doubt so tell me about the crash. retrieval site yeah so this is in okay. so now you have to understand this is a. long time period so I start this in 2012. I get this shock where I'm being you.

know people are asking me to meet you. know people from these programs and from. the space force and I'm actually not. meeting with them because I'm waiting. I'm I'm kind of thinking I've got to. think this through um it wasn't until. about 2014 that I actually start to meet. the people like the um Affiliated people. and they show me some things and they. you know they they asked me to go to. this crash retrieval site in New Mexico. no this this a recent crash no it's a. it's okay so this crash is part of a.

series of crashes that happened in the. 1940s so the Roswell it wasn't Roswell. actually it was one of the crash sites. that's near it's in New Mexico but it's. not Roswell so there was more than one. crash in New Mexico yeah allegedly they. allegedly yeah they said that there were. probably four maybe even more I don't. know what a bunch of shitty UFOs keep I. know I know that's what well they don't. believe believe that they crashed they. they use that term but they don't they. don't think it's a crash they think that.

it's they personally I'll tell you from. a uh Professor standpoint like their. idea of this is that it's a donation. they call it the donation site so they. think that these were donated materials. and they're going to get information and. they do and um that's how Tyler was able. to create a lot of of the things that he. created in you know through and he would. fly these on the space shuttle by the. way uh these experiments and and so. forth it was very very fascinating to me.

I mean I think anybody would be. fascinated with it to tell you the truth. when you say fly these you don't mean. physical materials so he would have an. idea that he would get through these. protocols that I told you about so he. practices these protocols and it would. be related to something that he would. then want to fly on the space shuttle. because I this was during the time the. space shuttle was happening and the. space shuttle had anti anti-gravity. environments and he needed these. environments in order to create this and.

now this is actually a whole field. called. biologics so there's there's a real. field now that where people are doing. these experiments in space and creating. things that we can't create here like. what um medicine uh certain types of. metals uh kind of like ceramic Metals he. created something I actually wrote about. this and published about it totally. academic paper so you know most General. readers would never read it um it's.

because it has academic jargon in it but. um I talked all about it Jamie's got. something your researchers capitalized. on microgravity and space to accelerate. drug Discovery and development um that. was one of the speculations about the. type of metals that were retrieved. supposedly from these crash sites that. these whatever these metals were were. they were layered and that they could. only be layered specifically the way.

they were done in a zero gravity. environment yeah that's right they were. engineered so I actually did talk to. Gary before I came on your podcast. because I just wanted to be sure you. know because I don't want to represent. his research incorrectly so I said can. you please re you know recap they he. always thinks I'm an idiot too he's like. how many times have I told you this so. yeah so he has parts from various of the. crash. that are clearly. engineered not by humans that but but he.

doesn't he's not going to jump to the. conclusion that it's extraterrestrial he. says we just don't know right it's just. something that is outside of the realm. of our current understanding of how we. create physical materials that's correct. and how much of this stuff they have do. they have full. crafts uh I've never seen any full. crafts what did you see when you went to. the craft. so I saw two types of materials um one I. can say it looks like uh kind of.

metallic frog. skin and another um and this is on the. ground at the crash light or do they. have it in another thing I have to tell. you a little bit about how we came about. this now remember this is the first book. that I wrote about this so I've written. two books about it and I wasn't a. Believer so when I went there I even. wasn't a Believer I was like I think. they're trying to give me misinfo or you. know something's going on maybe they. really believe this well they both. really believed this I know that for. sure so we're there and we had to wear.

blindfolds in order to go me and Gary so. Tyler's taking us um we drive to a. certain place he says put the blindfolds. on we had to leave our cell phones we. couldn't take any technology with us and. so we we go out it takes about an hour. to get out to the site we're blindfolded. we get out to the site we get out we're. wearing diff we were wearing like again. I guess there's rattlesnakes out there. and so we have to wear certain boots and. you know things like that so we get out.

we take our blindfolds. off and the first thing I do is I look. around because it looks really familiar. to me even though I've never been out. there and Tyler looked at me and he said. looks familiar doesn't it and I said you. know yeah and he said it's it's you've. seen it in the X Files and I was like. what he goes they they had an Insider on. their team and and I I honestly thought. okay this actually fits into my research.

that you know we learn everything we we. do about religion from from media like. you want to know what you know Moses. looked like you just watch you know the. Ten Commandments and things like that. like it's not true of course but that's. how most people learn about their their. religions and so this made me understand. this is what's going on it's like people. are believing this through this and then. I'm coming to this and I'm going to. confirm that it indeed looks like this. you know and it is is a crash site it's. just it's just too weird for me but you. know this is what I study so I'm I'm.

going to study but that gets to your. point like how did we get this stuff so. he actually did have um metal detectors. that were configured for specific types. of metals that he had he had these built. is there a scientific term for these. particular types of metals they're. called meta materials meta materials. yeah I think that's just a fancy word. for saying we don't know what this is. MHM frankly cuz they're meta okay right.

and they're. layered in some sort of a way where it's. like literally like Adam upon. atom yeah well I don't actually know the. science of it I just know what these. guys tell me because you know they're. doing the research at you know their. Laboratories the people are very Cy. about it like jacqu valet was very Cy. about the way he was was willing to. describe it and the way he was willing. to describe these things it's it's.

almost like they don't want to blurred. out too much because it'll cut off. access I don't okay so that's that could. be but I know that the reason that I. don't want to. is there's some type of national. security issue and I am an American. right so there's something like that. going on right especially if someone. else can figure out how to use these. things yeah so when you go to this site. do you see the physical ground where.

this thing hit okay yes so what does it. look like okay so at this point the. whole site is covered with rubble that. looks like rusted rubble and it's not. sand so there's the sand of the desert. right and then there's this Rubble. everywhere and I'm stepping on the. rubble and I'm kind of looking at it and. I how big are these pieces well this. this is is all just like less yeah it's. like gravel it's like and so I asked.

Tyler what's this and he said that after. the government retrieved the crash and. they didn't want anyone out here looking. so what they did was they dropped a. bunch of tin cans out here in the 1950s. and these have disintegrated down into. this rubble and so I put that in my book. because that's what he said and when I. put that in my book the editor of my. book said to me you can't say this. because it's. ridiculous and I at the time I was like. it is ridiculous but this is what.

happened and it's data and even though. we don't understand it now and it seems. ridiculous we need to keep it in there. because it doesn't seem ridiculous to me. at all well this is a person who. absolutely you know the editor who. absolutely doesn't believe in UFOs at. all but knows that I'm doing good work. on a new type of religion therefore is. keeping the Oxford brand you know Oxford. University straighten narrow uh but I I. convinced her I said it's data so we've. got to keep it in there and I'm really.

happy I did I kept it in there I kept a. lot of stuff in there that didn't make. sense to me at the time but when I look. back on it with with everything that's. coming out now I'm like okay I'm glad I. did that well the strategy for. disseminating. disinformation along with real. information is long been used yes where. they'll say a bunch of really ridiculous. things and connect them to something. that's probably real right and that way. everything gets thrown out it's the baby. with the bath water the whole thing gets. thrown out totally and if you have a.

site where they've picked up these. anomalous metals that defy our. understanding of Metallurgy and you're. calling them metam materials and no one. knows where the hell it comes from. what's the best way to confuse people. well just throw a bunch of regular metal. everywhere that's right that's exactly. yeah just throw 10 cans but we were out. there all day so we were out there for. probably 10 hours and I know so at many. points in the day Gary and I would go. aside and and kind of confer without.

Tyler listening and saying it's you know. is this a setup you know and so he goes. well let's just try to find some stuff. and I'll analyze it and I'll tell you. we'll tell you so are you do you notice. that the ground has been Disturbed is. there there an indication that something. hit there yes so Tyler took us and. showed us everywhere like he's been a. part of this retrieval site for like 40. years or so and he knows the people that.

like the original people and um the. story and everything like that so he. gave us a tour of the whole place um and. we did and we found Parts by the way and. the some of the parts were so deep down. into the grounds like there were rocks. and things like that and Gary I like I'm. afraid he's going to get bit by a. rattlesnake frankly he's putting his. hand down there and you know spending. like hours at this one place trying to. get something he found some things there.

and I thought if people are trying to. fool us and put things down they did a. really good job because they would H. have had to come here like a year ago or. something and put that down there so I. don't honestly that's my personal. opinion is I don't think that. this this was put out there for us they. found he they did they did find we did. find things what's interesting to me is. this is that after we found these things. and we did all this kind of data. collection and everything at the site. you know um very much like.

anthropologists do by the way you know. documenting what we found when we found. it you know what it looked like and. things like that putting into special. containers um then I was like I don't. want this I don't want any of this stuff. and they both looked at me and laughed. and so Tyler told us what was going to. happen when we went back to the airport. he said once we get back to the airport. Gary G said he's going to take the stuff. Gary's going to get stopped oh Tyler can. go through airports by the way he.

doesn't get he doesn't have to go. through the normal thing that I have to. go through like the TSA and everything. he just goes through so he went through. that through I had to go through Gary. went through and he did get stopped and. everything happened exactly as Tyler. said it would uh there was going you. know they weren't they were going to. look through everything they were going. to like take everything apart uh then. you know all that was was a signal to. someone in DC. that somebody had these parts and this. is who that's what he said was so and.

and I don't know if the signal went to. DC but everything else happened and and. Gary and I were both sweating right we. were like ah so they essentially allow. this yeah yeah yeah is it because they. want different perspectives from. different academics I think so my. personal opinion is that and and in fact. uh there was a conference at Stanford. like a month ago and I was at that. conference and part of what was said was. that this is information that we can't.

keep siloed because it's it's too. important and we need to have the best. Minds on this this information this data. this material and so they're out kind of. like Outsourcing how big were these. pieces so these pieces that I found um. weren't very big I mean they were about. one of them was about like this this big. right okay like so the size of a pack of. gum yeah and the the actual uh frog skin. type thing was probably about this big. like a small notebook and we found a.

couple of those mhm you found a couple. of those just wandering around this area. well we weren't wandering we were. actually digging in and looking and yeah. yeah wandering is a bad word that's okay. exploring yeah um this frog. skin what is it what what the is it. malleable is it yes it's malleable and. you could crunch it up and it'll go back. to its original form I've heard of that. before that was something that they. talked about at Roswell that there was. some bizarre metal that you could.

crumple up like a piece of paper and it. would flatten right back out and that's. what you experienced I don't know if it. was the same material but yes similar. yeah it was like what did what did that. feel like when you did. that uh it's hard to explain because you. have to understand I'm I was really. resistant to to the you know 10 years. ago think about it this was a time. period when we weren't talking about. UFOs right it was ridiculous until 2017. to the New York time story that's right.

and my book was impressed during that. time so during this time period I'm. doing this research and I am not going. to believe that this is this is but so. many indicators were telling me that it. was yes this is Diana this is what's. going on you know there is something and. so much and when I looked back at the. space force our space force and also the. history of that I could see okay there. there are so many things that just don't. add up here here that this is probably. and I met too many people that had been. long timers in the program like.

seriously long timers like their whole. lives live and die by this live and die. by it when they die they die with that. information whoa and it's it's. traumatizing to them and their family. too I can only imagine yeah yeah the the. people that worked on Roswell that spoke. about it many many years later they they. have that sort of same weight that. they're carrying around with. them like Philip corso and lot of those. other people when they describe the.

experience like many many years later. there a there's a weight to the. information that they're carrying it's. almost like they want to tell the world. but the world's not going to even. believe them and how could they unless. they experienced it and and even though. they experienced it they're still. baffled by it that's exactly the feeling. I got it was a a weight there was a a. sense of Duty to the American you know. to being an American of course and. Patriot there's a patriotism there um.

but there was also a sense that these. were the true actors in history and we. will never know their. names so you spend 10 hours at this site. yeah and are is there any guidance are. they describing things to you are they. telling you what you can and can't do is. there any no it was just me Gary and. Tyler mhm there was no no one else so. who who transported you there well Tyler. did because it was a Tyler blindfolded. you yeah yeah he he's the person who.

worked on on this site for 40 years so. obviously he has permission to do this. he does he had in fact he had to get. permission for Gary to go he had already. received permission for me to go and he. had to get permission for Gary to. go and what kind of information are they. giving you in terms of what their. conclusions are how many different. possibilities that they have surmised. like do they have a summary of all the.

different aspects of this phenomenon. that they think it could be or might not. be or so yes so the story actually. begins there and then I continue to work. with Tyler because I'm pretty fascinated. by what he does and I'm fascinated about. the programs and I'm fascinated by the. by the fact that the true actors of. History are are unknown and I what do.

you mean by that because these are the. people that are doing things that. actually change history like think of. the first people that decided hey let's. give these people LSD and see what. happens right well they probably weren't. Richard Alpert ROM Daws and Timothy L. they probably weren't them but West. there you go okay and most people don't. know who that is okay so what that's. what I'm saying is like there's a whole. another level to our history and I.

already knew this anyway being a. historian of religion but when it I. guess I was a patriot right and I still. am and so when I am I so when I learned. about this I was I really wanted to. share the story because I felt like. these people even if they remained. invisible they should get their due like. because these people keep us safe in. ways that we just don't know and they're. dedicating their lives and they're. getting no recognition for it okay no. recognition and so that really prompted. me more than anything to to write about.

it so I was working with with Tyler and. I was scheduled to go to the. Vatican and um and it was at the Vatican. where we encountered where where a lot. of things happened for Tyler that I saw. made him understand that this was. something that had been going on. historically for a very long time period. see we didn't just go to the Vatican we. also went to the well we went to the. Vatican archive um which is hard to get. into but I could get into it and we also.

went to the space Observatory archive. which most people don't even know that. the Vatican has a space of Observatory. and how that all happened was not set up. Joe it was not it was so organic um. because it happened before I I even met. Tyler and I I put off going there. because I have I had at the time very. young kids and I didn't want to leave. them and go to another country um for. you know 3 weeks or whatnot and but I.

had been invited by Brother guy. conselman to go to the space Observatory. because I had been studying about the. the space you know research and I said. does the Vatican have like a lot of. space documents you know documents about. space and he said every single thing. that the Vatican does and they and we do. he said comes to where I live which is. at the space Observatory and we have a. Scholars residence and you're welcome to. stay for as long as you want you have. full access to the space Observatory. archive and what is it like it's great.

it's great describe it to me okay well. for me it's great right many people may. think oh how boring right but original. keplers and. copernicus's and you know every single. thing that people scientists from 1200. 1300 on up thought about space and about. magnetism and propulsion and things like. that it's all there every one of them. and so you you go in there and we we had.

full access to it Tyler why does the. Vatican have that well the Vatican would. have it so because you know who was. doing this 500 years ago there was no. United States right so of course they're. going to have it they also have an. amazing meteorite collection um they. have a lot of really cool things there. and they're again they're these monks. they're astrophysicist monks and they're. just hanging out there they've got the. best lattes by the. way Italians yeah they know how to eat. um my experience though of the Vatican.

itself was different than the archive um. and I've actually heard you talk about. the Vatican and and I agree like you. said you were I saw you talking about it. and you said you know I'm looking around. and I see all this stuff and they stole. it from all these you know countries it. was like all this booty you know the. Vatican is filled with it that was my. experience as well so when I went you. know we did all the we did the the. scholarship of course but we also did. the touristy thing so you know we went. and looked at all the museum and. everything like that and everything I.

saw seemed to me to be like you know. colonization you know the colonization. of these people and taking their stuff. and the colonization of these people and. taking their stuff and they have it all. there and um when you're inside the. Vatican by the way it's different than. when you're outside of it because you. know when you're outside of it there are. those guys that that uh the Swiss guards. well those guys are militia when you go. inside and they're. everywhere the thing that fascinated me.

about it was the there just the volume. yeah the volume it's like their hoarders. for insane art yeah I mean there's stuff. that should be in its own room and it's. just stacked next to other stuff that. also should be in its own room it's. almost like they don't have enough space. for all the stuff that they have that's. what it seems like yeah it's it's well. it's kind of like this place if you see. our stack of art that we have out there. I have like stuff that I need to put on. the walls just have too much of it cuz.

so many people send me cool [ __ ] this is. such an awesome Studio it reminded me. immediately when I walked into it I was. like okay I want to take photos of. everything but I wouldn't I didn't but I. did want to well you can it's okay yeah. it's just art it's amazing you have some. really amazing stuff thank you yeah it's. cool it's cool to be connected to so. many fascinating artists that send me. stuff or that I buy buy their stuff like. you know I bought that the Hendrick. painting there's the thing about the. Vatican well I got very fortunate that.

we had a a professor that took us on a. tour and my children were pretty young. at the time and um when we went we were. outside in the this Courtyard area and. there where the pine cone is and uh he. said do you know the significance of the. pine cone and I said does it represent. the pineal gland and he said yes and so. he got so know this yeah that's what. it's also in the the the Pope's staff if.

you look at the staff that the pope. carries the staff has a pine see if you. can get a photo of the staff the pope. carries it has a pine cone in the center. of it the pine cone which is in it's. depicted in many many ancient pieces of. art religious art and it represents the. pineal gland because it's similar in. appearance to a pine cone and there so. this pine cone which also I'm sure. probably represents the Fibonacci. sequence which also represents itself in. the pine cone um that that's the seed of.

the Soul that's where DMT is made this. might be the Gateway Place yeah it's. well the reason why they have it an. immense pine cone I mean that's not an. accident no of course not no that's so. here it is fascinating so he has it in. his. staff and that massive pine cone that is. the sculpture at the Vatican that that's. what that. is that that that is it's representative.

of the pineal gland and this is what. this professor was telling me and look. you see it there in that ancient uh. Mesopotamian art it's probably um. sumarian with that that God that has. that I mean that's the anunaki carried. that thing and then the fact that. they're holding it specifically that. they're telling you like this is what. this is what's up this is this is the. connection this is the connection to the. Gods did you guess. this well I knew that the pineal gland. looked like a pine cone and and so when.

he asked you you just knew this yeah. that's pretty amazing well I'd already. had a lot of experiences with DMT right. so I already knew I I knew there was. there's an A Realm accessible to anybody. that gets in contact with that stuff. that is beyond imagination it is more. real than reality and when you go there. you been there before with the most. bizarre feeling about it is this. terrifying fear while it's happening and.

then incredible peace when you get in. there and a recognition like oh I know. this place I've been here I'm here all. the time I know these things I know the. these beings these beings are they're. they're truth they're they're something. from somewhere else somewhere that's. probably around us all the time that's. influencing us all the time. I know a lot of people have had very. negative experiences like horrific. experiences of demons and and negative.

encounters I've had none I've had no. negative experiences like that my my. experiences are all in these very. enlightened bizarre creatures that. contact you and they seem to know like. what's wrong with me like right away and. they seem to like also work on you like. there's this bizarre feeling like. they're like let me get in there and fix. your [ __ ] wires well that of course. sounds like the abduction experience too. yes very very very similar to the.

abduction experience I think they're all. connected I really do I think that's one. I mean I know you're saying that some of. them do happen during the day I'm sure. I'm sure some of them happen during the. day most of them happen at night the. vast majority of them happen during what. people are sleeping that's true and that. seems to be com completely connected to. that it's the only explanation that. makes sense to me other than an actual. you know like you know Hollywood style. UFO landing and then come and getting.

you and which seems so theatrical it's I. think the reality is far more bizarre. than that I think that is that's one of. the things that McKenna said about DMT. and also about mushrooms Terence McKenna. said that they show you themselves in. that way to comfort you because the. reality of what they are would be too. much for you to handle and that what. you're seeing even though it's mind.

blowing it's just a tiny little piece of. what it actually is so when I'm at the. Vatican and I see this pine cone I'm. going okay so there's this. recognition that this connection to God. this connection to this higher. experience this higher power it's. available inside of us it's there's some. there's a Gateway and that's the Gateway. that pine cone is the. Gateway that's amazing um and you know.

my Parish priest actually about a year. ago gave me a little pine cone a little. gold pine cone and I put it on my bag. and I didn't know this actually and as I. came here to Austin it fell off in the. airport and it's not gold or anything. but it looks gold and it fell off and it. kind of went away and it would be I. thought maybe I should just let it go. and then I looked at it and I was like.

nah that's really important for some. reason so I picked it up and put it back. in the bag that's wild I know yeah it's. a strange representation of what I mean. it it's it's I it's an icon of this. thing whatever this thing is that's. inside of us that is this Gateway and it. must have been that Plato and his school. was basically they were basically trying. to make the body healthy enough for. people to you know access through this. which is a type of mind like he didn't.

call it intellectual he had he had. another word for it they have uh like. Greeks they have different words for. knowledge right so nosis and you know so. this was a form of um the dialectic. which was a certain type of knowledge a. certain type of knowing it wasn't like. mathematical knowing so this must be. this type of thing I'm thinking because. you know Plato's Republic actually went. and influenced Christians in early. Christianity so this idea seems to not.

be just specifically Christian as you. say you saw you know we saw some photos. of Egyptians you know with the. fascinating all throughout history yeah. and then all throughout history the use. of psychedelics I'm I'm sure you're. aware of Brian M rescue's work oh yeah I. know him yeah okay yeah so that whole. thing the osian Mysteries that's right. yeah that was all about that that's. right um are you aware of Maria Sabina.

yes yes okay so when I was young I. learned about her and um and how you. know she worked with siloc cybin to heal. people and when she died I think it was. in the 1980s the president of Mexico. announced it so she was actually so in. that culture it was well known that and. she called the psilocybin of the. mushrooms little saints. H did you ever read John Marco allegro's. work no I haven't do you know of it no I.

I probably have read it you know think I. I've read a lot of books so I may have. just forgotten John Marco legro was an. ordained minister who became an agnostic. when he started studying Theology and he. was one of the people that was studying. the Dead Sea Scrolls and he studied the. Dead Sea Scrolls for 14 years and he. wrote The Sacred Mushroom in the cross. okay yes I do know that book yes yeah. yeah and then he wrote. um that one got I think it got bought. out by the Catholic church and you can.

get old copies of it but then it was. just re-released a few years back uh but. the then he wrote something in the. Christian myth I forget what it was. sacred mushroom and the Christan myth. sacred Mushroom in the cross and then. there was another one he wrote that he. published after that other one was. bought out that you can that's readily. available but this guy studied the Dead. Sea Scrolls which is the oldest version. of the Bible that we know of written in.

Aramaic and the Dead Sea Scrolls is a. particularly meticulous. transcription the way they had to. transcribe this is very bizarre because. it's written on parchment which is. animal skin so they had to do DNA tests. on the various pieces of parchment to. make sure that they came from the same. piece because the idea that they'd be. from different cows so they take this. part arment skin they they're laying it. out they do DNA test on it to make sure. it's all from the same and then they try. to piece together what it is and not all.

of it is even available Jamie cheuck me. that up behind you to the right thank. you and his conclusion after all of this. the the summary of His conclusion was. the entire Christian religion was all. about psychedelic experiences and. fertility rituals and that this was what. all these stories really meant and he. even connected. the word for Christ to an ancient. Sumerian word which meant a mushroom. covered in God's semen and that these.

ancient people believed that when it. rained it was God having an orgasm on. the earth and that these mushrooms which. if you ever seen mushrooms appear after. the rain they come up out of nowhere and. that these mushrooms these people would. eat them and they experience God M and. that they wrote these things down and an. or well first it was an oral tradition. for who knows how long and then they. wrote them down and then you know it. gets transcribed to Greek and Latin and. English and it's all and a lot is.

missing out of those translations a lot. of was missing even from the ancient. Hebrew translation because the words in. ancient Hebrew had numerical value yes. that's true which is a it's a very. complicated language where like the word. law love and the word God have the same. numerical value and numerical value in. words is very important to what the. meaning of these sentences what these. phrases meant and we lose a lot of that. we also lose people's gender through.

these translations so some early. Apostles are called who are women are. called men in the translation from Greek. to Latin um so I'm aware of this idea. and of course Brian's work as well and. in my field that's that's one we have. categories for you know obviously you. know like medicine you know has. different categories um and that's one. category is entheogens and different. types of religions uh so the early. Christian Church I would say that not.

all I don't agree that all of Christian. tradition is is this I would say that. there definitely is a lot of it um but. there are also other types of you know. Christian Traditions I mean when I look. at the Jesus movement in the first. century it to me looks like a. philosophical school like Plato and you. know Plato did the Mysteries you know. and um but I don't know if I Think Jesus. was part of an asene movement like that. John the Baptist is Jewish he's out in. the desert and um you know they're.

practicing these water rights and they. basically are you know they have their. own community and he looked like he was. part of he had been baptized into this. community so the Jews at the in the. first century are just trying to survive. because Rome is killing them and. destroying they're going to destroy. their Temple so um so a lot of these. communities. um you know those so that's one. interpretation and I'm not discounting. that that's correct for those those.

Traditions but there are other. Traditions that are not they're not no. I'm sure filled with entheogens and. things like that I'm just letting just. being accurate that's all I could do I'm. sure there's a lot I mean you you're. yeah it was it was super diverse today. look at how diverse it is so I think. there are thousands of well there are. thousands of Protestant denominations of. you know and and there's Catholicism and. you know so we have so many diff and. even Catholics don't even know what. they're supposed to believe so some here.

believe this some over here believe that. they have the same mass that they go to. but the their belief structures are. different so that leads us to one of the. most fascinating interpretations of what. we're experiencing collectively when it. comes to this UFO UAP whatever it is. phenomenon that this is not. not a thing from another planet that. comes on a spaceship and and lands here. to show us how to do things correctly.

but that they've always been here and. that they are the things that are being. described in Ezekiel that they they are. a phenomenon that is both here and not. here at the same time that it's you you. are literally dealing with angels and. demons that this is that this this. phenomenon is connected to these ancient. stories of religion and it's it's not as.

simple as other beings like us from. somewhere. else okay yeah so so I can respond to. that all right so because youve said a a. huge amount of information in there and. I'm going to parse out some of that and. tell you just about. what I what I think so part of why I. continued to study this was that I saw.

that the historical record included a. lot of these events and these events. were weird back then just like they're. weird today right and when you look at. these events back in that time period. you also see a common pattern that. happens today and what is that pattern. that pattern is is that you know let's. take um St Francis of AI Stigmata I. don't know if you want to show you know. one so if you look at his Stigmata where. it looks like he's being you know. basically radiated by UFO um that's what.

my students say when they go and they. see this in in the Lou and and and such. um if you look at this primary sources. for that this happens in the 1200s and. you look at what um yeah so that ex so. here you see St Francis but also over. here on the right you see his friend. brother Leo brother Leo actually at the. time is probably 15 or something like. that he's yeah he's really young hard. life back then Dude Looks 80 well he's.

he's def actually look like that so the. artist yeah so the artists actually are. not getting at the primary sources and. that's what similar similar things are. happening today so the representations. that we get in the media don't look at. all like an abduction they don't look at. all what people experience and so what I. did was I went through a lot of the. primary source materials for Teresa of. Avala has a weird experience that looks. like an abduction um but they look. beautiful they're domesticated they're.

made to look a lot more happy or. something like that and I think part of. the reason for that I don't think it's. intentional I think because it's. traumatic I think because once you. recognize the the people themselves are. traumatized by this in both good and bad. ways okay so this experience is still. happening um to call it Angels and. Demons is is is accurate except for one. part and this and because there are bad. things that happen sometimes people get. hurt um Francis died from that uh wound.

or he died from wounds um that you know. were bleeding until so when he had this. experience until he died which was about. a year and a half later um they tried to. keep it silent in his Monastery because. they were they didn't know what happened. to him and they were horrified by it. okay and so until he died they didn't. actually tell anybody so he kept it. between him brother Leo and probably. another Monk so there's this idea of. Shame almost you know this is like you. know shameful.

um but also this idea that so things bad. things happen and that's why people say. well you know demonic or something like. that and uh people do experience these. things in different ways and they still. do they still do but what should we call. it should we then use the terminology of. people from 100 years ago call it angels. and demons I don't think we should I. think that what we have to do is we have. to take Case by case look at patterns. and maybe just try to proceed with.

different language because some of the. things were really interesting if you do. look at say experiences that Catholics. have say in the 1960s that have been. videotaped okay so um Virgin Mary. experiences where the Virgin Mary. appears and she reads people's minds and. she does you know she's doing these. kinds of things levitating people. together um if you put physics on that. case physicist on that case and if you. take you know the work of the people who.

are working at I think it's the. University of Washington where they're. doing MRI imaging of what people are. thinking and they're able to replicate. it so if they're looking at a van go. painting they can replicate that well. this looks like a. technology so that's what I'm trying to. say is that there's something going on. that could possibly be different and we. need different language for it and I. think we're at the very beginning just. like doing this stuff with DMT we're at. the very beginning of learning about. this this other world you know another.

thing that's fascinating about ancient. religious art is the Halo yeah have you. ever seen the earlier depictions of the. Halo where it looks like a mushroom cap. MH that is wild because it seems to be. that what they're trying to say is that. this person is under the influence of. the entho. I mean it's a literal representation of. a mushroom cap it changes over time and. over history and it becomes different.

and then eventually becomes like a hula. hoop around your head but the earlier. versions all look like a mushroom cap. they have the lines of the mushroom cap. Jesus is depicted there the enlightened. ones the. Saints the the religious figures that. are of prominence they all have that. mushroom cap experience behind their. head even even the Buddha that photo of. the Buddha there with the Halo click on. that that the statue yeah even that I. mean the they they all have this thing.

behind them which you could repres I. mean you could interpret as these people. are under the. influence I would okay I agree with you. that there mushrooms are seen in. Catholic churches in you know near. Guatemala new me you know down Mexico. and things like that inlaid. um but I would have to suggest that. there might be more going on so I'm.

going to push back on your. interpretation um although I'm not going. to say that psilocybin and mushrooms are. uh aren't in you know aren't part of. that that iconography I would say that a. lot of the iconography is going to be. something about the the light that. emanates from people who are accessing. these Realms and I say that because. there are I've read so many reports and.

they're not I think that if some of the. monks and nuns who report being lit up. right in their cells and things like. that if they were doing psilocybon if. they were doing mushrooms they would. have said so they would have written it. because they write a lot so the. Catholics have immense records you know. they they took good notes well I don't. think it's the only way to do it oh I. know I was just yeah I I think it's. something that they discovered I oh for. sure I think it's a part of it I do yeah. I think that but so the magnetism of the.

of what's you know this kind of light. that's happening um you could see that. even in the shroud of tyin which is by. the way an anomalous artifact that. scientists have looked at even atheist. scientists have looked at it and it. appears to be some type of um imprint. from radiation on onto a cloth um so so. I think we're talking about forms of. light as well but the the shroud of. Turan is only 500 years old well not.

necessarily so really yeah so um when. you're so there are certain parts of it. that could have been repaired that are. 500 years old so the problem is there is. a whole department of the you should get. this priest on here on here by the way. you'd have a really good discussion with. him um he's an expert on the shroud of. Trin and he just came out with new. research that's been done about 6 months. ago um and there's a whole department in. the Vatican just for doing research on.

the shroud of Turan so that's so it's. not necessarily just 500 years old um. that there are different parts of it. it's you know how you were talking about. the parchment is the Shroud of Turin. real after all uh. 1988 report wrote off The Relic as a. medieval fake but now the sign seems to. be turning could it have been a miracle. all along. fasinating. okay you um let's see other than just. that 170 peer-reviewed academic papers. on the Shroud have been published in.

scientific and archaeological journals. around the world despite all the. attention there's little consensus of. just how ancient this ancient linen. really is or what it actually shows the. record places a shroud in how do you say. that ly liri uh l r y northern France uh. for 4 years until 1357 the Alpine town. of shamur from 1502 to 1578 where was. damaged by fire before being passed to. the Dukes of seavo in 1578 the SVO moved.

to their Capital Turin and aside from. periods of wartime evacuation has stayed. in the Royal Chapel of San Giovani. Batista Cathedral ever since consensus. has been the shroud's history pre 1300. will never be established and yet the. French historian Jean Christine ptif P. piles how do you say that ptii pil. has recently published a seriously. reviewed 400 page analysis of all the. archaeological and scientific studies so. far and in Italy the peer-reviewed.

findings of a specialist x-ray study by. a team of physicists indicate that the. fabric is potentially up to 2,000 years. old there are now Six studies which. challenge the idea that the tan shroud. has nothing more than a cunning piece of. medieval trickery could it be something. more the cloth which has been the object. of mass veneration by Catholic faithful. for entes was acquired by a French. knight uh jaf D Char Char uh Char how do.

you say that how would you say that. Char I I'm not quite sure who deposited. in a monastery in ler about 130 Mi east. of Paris in. 1353 this was a time of unparalleled. Relic mongering and forgery and. according to the American archaeologist. William meum the Shroud was most like. most likely arrived in Europe along with. many other relics looted from churches. and monasteries during the Crusades. research in. 2015 reported in the analysis and.

identification of dust and pollen. samples extracted by an adhesive which. suggested that the Shroud may have. undergone a journey from the ancient. near East after the sh sack of con. constant I can never say his name I know. I can never say it Con Constantinople in. 1204 still were it not for the point. image image of its folds chances are it. would have disappeared into the mores of. other spous relics kept in thousands of.

churches all over Western Europe in. Pet's uh latest book P how do you say it. ped I'm not actually P Phil is what I. would. say uh Le. sarein Timon uh Dean de Jesus Christ uh. the holy Shroud of Turin Witness to the. passion of Jesus Christ he examines more. than a 100 Years of historical. archaeological and scientific research. his conclusion the cloth has all the. characteristics of authenticity.

H. interesting interesting oh go back okay. um even those who reject the idea the. Shroud is a 2,000-year-old how do you. say that word SE Seal Seal cloth seal. seul cloth he writes uh are unable to. explain the imprint of the body. adversaries of the authenticity of the. Shroud come up against an. enigma that this one cannot be the work.

of a counterfeit because to make such an. image would have required unknown. scientific knowledge in the Middle. Ages uh the image is not a painting no. trace of brush Strokes no outline has. been observed even under electron. microscope we must exclude the. hypothesis of a smear the application of. a base relief of wood or marble or a. metal statue heated and placed on the. cloth it was a Catholic Church itself. unwittingly sparked what would become a.

global obsession with the Shroud in 1898. when it gave the green light to a ra. rare public exhibition of the cloth. sondo Pia and amateur became the first. to photograph the linen strange sepia. shadows and the high contrast created by. black and white photography enhanced by. blurry stains. when P went to the dark room to check. his plates he was startled to see that. the negatives revealed a haunting. perfectly proportional facial image of a.

Serene bearded man in the imprint of a. body tortured by what appears to be. flogging lacerations and puncture wounds. can we see an actual image of what the. the yeah that's it is that the actual. image can you click on that Jamie and. make it large wow how bizarre where are. the puncture wounds is that what we're. seeing in his stomach maybe area here. thing yeah right and that is where they. they didn't go through the hands they. did go through the wrist When They. Crucified people and then there there. also appears to be something in his.

stomach like if you look above his right. arm right above the wrist that that that. looks like a wound which is what is. detailed in the Bible. yeah very. strange yeah so if that really is 2000. very. bizarre very. bizarre h. H yeah you you you ever hear of the. second coming project no second I used. to have a joke about it Second Coming.

project was uh a group of people that. were uh it was either a troll they were. joking around or they were serious about. it where they wanted to obtain DNA from. the Shroud of Turin and clone Jesus and. that's how Jesus would come I have heard. about this that's right that's right. that's hilarious yeah. wow that would be so weird imagine. that's how they do. it that would be so amazing yeah that. mean that would kind of I mean that.

wouldn't that wouldn't create Immaculate. Conception but it kind of would it seems. like it I mean it's not birthed from a. virgin but it's similar in that regard. but that's one of the things that I had. a conversation with Taylor Taylor. Sheridan the other day we're discussing. like what what is the Bible trying to. say when it describes certain things but. in the beginning there was light and how. the you know God created everything in. six days like God doesn't that sound. like the big bang like told through the. telephone I think so game yeah so I the.

Catholic church and science go together. like even Catholics can believe in. evolution they don't generally know that. they believe in evolution it's just. theistic Evolution right that's all. right and most Catholics don't know that. and I don't know why but Catholics yeah. we're we're scientific I've been messing. around with this idea over the last few. years that the universe itself is God I. think yeah I mean this idea that like. God created the universe yeah maybe it.

is God MH I mean if you want to talk. about something that's all powerful. Beyond Comprehension. is responsible for every single thing in. the cosmos it is the universe that that. all has some sort of law that keeps it. together like an intelligence yeah and. it's completely mysterious one of the. things you talked about in your book. that's really fascinating was the Apollo.

10 when they were hearing space music. and they didn't want to talk about it no. they didn't what did they describe it. like uh you can hear it actually online. really yeah let's hear it Apollo 10. Space Music let's [ __ ]. go maybe this would be my new workout. music. yeah space music I didn't know it really. freaked them out I would imagine Dr ya. Whitley she's a space psychologist she's. the one who told me about it and said.

you should put this as a quote before my. information because she talked about how. they didn't want to report it because it. was so weird and that's the whole idea. of this two data set there are two data. sets for UFO Reporting like Pilots will. see stuff but they won't report it right. or they'll see stuff and they'll report. stuff but they won't um listen listen I. guess here we. go you want some more brownies. [Music].

now that it music even sounds outer. Spacey doesn't it you hear that that. whistling. [Music]. sound. look yeah sounds like uh you know otter. SpaceTime. music hey Tom is your is your insulation. all burned off here on the front side of. your window over here. right. yeah mine's all burned.

off heading out here where you. [Applause]. John you might get thirsty in the future. goo I'm going to fix you some grape. juice. this goes on for 5 minutes I don't know. so it's just that. sound I think it's the sound that there. are two tones there's kind of like this.

high pitch sound and then that sound. yeah yeah and you're also getting it. it's a recording from. inside. and obviously it's not going to sound. exactly how they were hearing it this. video can't be the it's not it's just. video I think like stock video of them. on the mission oh so this is not the.

video of them experiencing it no way the. audio would be recorded separately from. the this and I think someone just mixed. this together so there's something to. look at let's see if there's just a. recording of the audio itself without. this is the full this is the one that. said full audio I don't know like this. is from CBS I don't. know. [Music]. all right that is that sounds like it.

wow mystery music heard. space. wo what the hell is that yeah what do. they think it. is uh well what happens now I don't know. what they think it is but I do know that. they train astronauts for it now to get. them they have simulation so when. astronauts go into space they're not. surprised by stuff so this is a common. occurrence there were so many weird. things that happened like one thing that. happened to them when they were in space. now this is a getting back to the two. data sets so they've they've worked.

their whole lives to go into space so. they can't indicate that in any way. they're mentally unstable so when they. go there and they come back certain. things happen so one thing that happened. was they were seeing like flashes of. light when they came back down to earth. and um but they wouldn't tell anybody. and then finally a bunch of them said do. do you see this flash of light like when. you close your eyes you see light and. everything like that and they were they. agreed that if they all reported it they. couldn't get fired so this is how they.

were be they were able to report weird. stuff that they saw in space um isn't. that crazy that exploring the outside of. Earth you have to be careful about what. you say because people think you're. crazy that's right that's right isn't. that bizarre well yeah so it's these two. data sets so it happens here when people. have you know when they see things and. then they have these strange things that. happen they don't they tell authorities. the stuff okay yeah I saw this it was. unknown I don't know what it was but. then they tell their friends and family.

I actually had this feeling that it was. looking at me and this is why I think. that and so they tell their subjective. kind of weird things you know to their. families and their family friends so. yeah so you get that with astronauts. too who is at the front of the line when. it comes to this stuff like who has been. studying this the longest that has the. greatest body of information available. about space and stuff about the emergent.

phenomenon of some sort of. contact. okay that's such okay this is a hard. question to answer because there is a. person but will this person say. everything this person knows probably. not okay so but there is a official NASA. historian who in my opinion knows way. more than he actually writes about but. he's written a heck of a lot and he's. and his name is Stephen dick and what an.

unfortunate name well yeah but it is his. name and um he has an amazing body of. work that anybody who's interested in. this should read he was also um at the. very beginning kind of in he was part of. the initial stages of creating. astrobiology and um uh yeah astrobiology. and what leads you to believe that he's. holding back. information well when I go back and I. I'm in contact with him and I when I. read what he's written I can see that he.

was at the Forefront of looking at this. like AI back like 25 years ago he was. already talking about it saying this is. this is AI ex ET is going to be Ai and. this is why and then kind of doing. timelines and things like that so and. also um H just conversations that I've. had with with him that are you know. basically correspondences that indicate. to me that I think he. probably has some information but he you.

know a lot of this is classified right. and probably for good reason what good. reason um I don't know. but yeah this is from his Wikipedia uh. on astrobiology I thought. this we're just talking about they. argued since the agent Greek. extraterrestrial life has been a theme. tied to Scientific. cosmologies including the ancient Aton. atomist uh cernic cartisian and the.

Newtonian World Views dick argues that. from an epist. epistemological point of view the. methods of astrobiology in the 20th. century are as empirical as in any. historical science such as astronomy or. geology dick has also surveyed the field. of astrobiology in critical issues in. the history philosophy and sociology of. astrobiology on December 4th 2013 while. holding the NASA Library of Congress.

chair and astrobiology Dick testified on. astrobiology before the US House of. Representative committee on science. space and Technology arguing that seti. funding should be restored and. integrated with the NASA astrobiology. program hold on go back to that okay. uh this part the intelligence principle. yeah this is this is a this is the thing. that he worked on like more than 20. years ago is a hypothetical idea of.

dicks in the field of cultural Evolution. outlined his 2003 paper cultural. Evolution the post-biological universe. and SEI the intelligence principle. describes a potential binding tendency. among all intelligent societies both. terrestrial and extraterrestrial the. maintenance Improvement and perpetuation. of knowledge and intelligence is the. central driving force of cultural. Evolution and that to the extent. intelligence can be improved it will be.

improved it doesn't actually have the. next line that that he writes about and. says and if it's not improved it will be. to the detriment of that. society that certainly seems to be true. yeah yeah so that's so the so it's him. but also Joe it's not just him there is. a group they're called The Invisible. college and I'm not going to name who. they are people can search them and find. out their names um but they're part of. this oral tradition and this hidden.

tradition that's been at the Forefront. of doing this type of work for over 50. 60 70. years so what has it been like for you. to go from a person that before you. visit this crash site you think this is. all nonsense right to where you are now. having written two books about it and. very careful with your words and. realizing how bizarre this is to now.

having this conversation with me in. front of millions of people like what. has this been like for you yes it's been. life-changing okay so that's definitely. a fact and in the beginning it was. uncomfortable um but I learned this is. where I learned about you know you're. talking about the the penil gland and. this is how I learned about this access. and I learned it through communities. that are associated with this study so.

I've learned about human potential and I. think that that's probably what's. impacted me more than anything in and I. also learned about structural evil in. societies and how has it been for me. um I think it's been great really yeah I. I mean I thought about about it the. other day cuz I because there were times. when I said I don't want to do this. anymore and I think that I thought you. know I think the bad times have been. worth.

it the the scary parts have been worth. it m because I went into. this wanting to know right I'm a. professor of religion I mean I want to. know and I wanted to be a professor of. religion since I was 11 and yeah and now. I am and that's cool what you want to do. when you're 11 yeah it was pretty. weird but I knew and and now I feel like. I'm getting answers and it's not like I. know conclusively part part of it is.

that we're not meant to know is that. part of it is that it is a mystery but. the but it's a fascinating one it's. almost as if this for me you talked. about Obsession it's it's that like I do. it in and of itself I think it's it's. fascinating I often struggle with the. concept that the human mind is incapable. of grasping the truth MH that even if it. was presented to us we we don't have the. capability to truly incorporate it into.

our not just world view but Universe. view Life View existence view that it's. it's too baffling we're not quite ready. yet it's like showing Australia picus a. cell phone right it's like what the [ __ ]. is this what is this we're not ready for. it yet and I I really wonder with the. emergence of artificial intelligence and. what seems to me at least to be the. inevitable not just uh incorporation of. it into our lives which has already.

happened but incorporation into it. biologically I I feel like that is a. step that we're taking that seems. inevitable that seems there there is. going to be some sort of convergence a. emerging of human consciousness and. artificial it's I think artif arcial. intelligence is the wrong term I don't. think it's artificial at all I think. it's a a type of intelligence that's. created by the human being and the human. being is biologically hindered by the.

fact that biological evolution is so. slow and technological evolution is so. insanely rapid especially if sensient. artificial intelligence becomes capable. of creating its own version of. artificial intelligence and it's not. hindering by the biological limitations. of the human mind you know I think Elon. said it best and you you talked about in. this book that we're the biological. Bootloader for artificial intelligence.

I've described it before I heard that. that we are we're a caterpillar that's. creating a cocoon to give birth to the. electronic butterfly and that this is. also what fuels not just Innovation but. materialism materialism is inexorably. connected to innovation. because one of the things about. materialism is everybody wants the. newest latest greatest thing and status. is attached to those things and we we. buy new cell phones like my friend had a. um an iPhone my friend's hilarious my.

friend Eddie Bravo he had a iPhone 13. and I Go why'd you get the 13 because. they gave it to me for free and and I. was like didn't you want a 15 he's like. I doesn't it do the same thing I'm like. it really does but I wanted a 15 when it. came out I have zero difference between. my 15 and my 14 but how to get to 15 you. know it's like there's something. connected to us that wants the latest. greatest and we are connected to this. idea of materialism and if you looked at. the human being as an organism and you.

were separate from it and you said well. what does this thing do well this thing. makes better things constantly that's. all it does that's what it does does a. lot of other stuff yeah it does a lot of. other stuff but it makes better things. but even the better things it does like. when Wars to control resources why do. they want resources so they can make. better things it's all about better. things it's all about more control so. that they have more access to more. materials to more more better things and.

that that always if if you're dealing. with intelligence and you're dealing. with technological Evolution and and. technological innovation it's going to. lead to artificial life or life a new. kind of Life a new kind of Life yeah. yeah and that might be the kind of life. that literally becomes God if you think. about it it continues to get like. there's um I was looking at this uh this. video that was on YouTube that was.

showing the stages of artificial. intelligence and that there's these. multiple stages artificial general. intelligence sensient general. intelligence and then it goes to. Godlike artificial intelligence but that. is is that what God is and is that what. we're doing are we making God have God. made us in his own image are we making. God is that what this whole thing is. about well you know it's these are some. of the questions that I have when I go. back to looking at some of the. characteristics of these like the Virgin.

Mary sightings and things like that like. we now have technologies that can. replicate what it seems like was. happening during that event you know. like in gab bendal at in Spain in the. 1960s and if that's the case then it. looks like Steven's idea of the. intelligence principle is correct when. he says that there will be intelligent. beings that will appear like deities to. us which makes sense yeah and he also.

says you know and um I don't know if. you've gotten to the chapter on Simone. in the book but she's a Quantum AI. person and she's um she talks about UFOs. and and int she hates the word. artificial intelligence she says it's. completely we don't like make a a. painting and then say see this. artificial. we don't do that so why are we call it's. because she says we're afraid of it you. we're afraid that it's going to be sent. and we're afraid you know she said but. it's just another life form that's that.

we happen to be doing creating yes and. she says it's special in that way but. it's also going to free us in many many. ways she's a tech Optimist she's an. accelerationist yeah well I hope she's. right because it's right yeah it's. happening no matter what yeah but I mean. I think if you could go back again to. Australia epicus and say hey man one day. you're going to be rought with anxiety. because his existential angst and you're. going to be on anti-depressants and.

living in a cubicle all day and doing. but that's the future it's progress like. [ __ ] that I'd rather hang out here in. the savannah yeah yeah I think so I. think it's in this inevitable part of. the process of whatever we're going. through because we're not in a static. State we're in a constant state of. social upheaval cultural upheaval a. change of perspectives this constant. battle to try to Define things and to. figure out what's appropriate and. inappropriate and gaslighting people who.

disagree with you which is also. fascinating just to watch people do that. it's it's fascinating to watch people. try to put a positive spin on inherently. evil things yeah it's pretty terrible. it's horrible yeah it's a bad show yeah. it's it's a weird show that's for sure. it's a weird show but again I I do. have this internal struggle with this. concept of Good and Evil that perhaps. the negative aspects are there to.

Enlighten us and to let us know that our. work is not done and that we have to. move into a direction that we know is. just and good and correct and and loving. and that this is possible with in small. groups of people it's possible with. individuals and ultimately must be. possible with the collective it just has. to be managed in some way or facilitated. in some way and that there it's not. guaranteed and then if you look at World.

War II and look at the Holocaust you. look at the the horrific things that. human beings are capable of when they're. allowed to just run rampant you talked. about the the Japanese Horrors during. the World War II like the rap n King. yeah yeah that's right oh my God I. remember reading that going how are. human beings capable of doing this how. are people savagery yeah unbelievable. bizarre bizarre in its cruelty unbeliev. horrific and that seems to be evil that.

seems to be evil personified I think so. I mean I'm not afraid to say it right it. is a thing Evil's a real thing like. Evil's real that's I mean as a professor. you know teaching my students I'm not. going to say oh yeah Evil's real but. here I'm going to say and I've said this. on podcast you can't say that human. trafficking is not evil right that's. evil evil and let's just call it for. what it is yeah human medical. experiments on children it's evil evil. evil yeah and we do it and we do it.

almost specifically for profit always. which is also evil yeah yeah so so back. to the allegory of the cave and the. Plato so he's dealing with these. questions of he doesn't call it justice. but calls it Injustice I mean he doesn't. call it evil so guess what I'm trying to. say is my position at this point after. doing the study of this kind of thing is. that it's the development of this this.

Mystic state that we've been talking. about that I think we need to this is. how we need to counter because we can't. decide these are the rules we're going. to follow people aren't going to follow. those rules or they're going to follow. those rules and cheat right or they're. going to pretend to follow the rules. right um but if people actually engaged. in the type of thing that we were. talking about the thing they love you. know that allows then perhaps Justice. emerges right yes that's what I'm trying. to point out to to people that with we.

these these ideas have been around for a. long time they're not new ideas but. we've never actually done them like you. know small groups have done them so when. you're alone with your thoughts and. you've been studying this for a long. time now what do you think the UFO. phenomenon. is yeah so I think first of all that. there are a lot of different varieties. of it but when we look at like we were.

looking at the Francis of AI and the. kind of historical things and the. abductions and things like that um I. think. that that has been around for a long. time and that these are things that are. in communication with us so I used what. I do in my book both the books that I. wrote about this is I go I I talk to. people who I think represent thousands. of people so each person in the book.

represents thousands if not more maybe. many thousands of people who have had. experiences and the ways in which they. interpret them so all of the people seem. to have had experiences where now what. they want to do is they actually want to. work for justice in different ways like. Jose the veteran in my book he's working. with young people and helping them deal. with being addicted to social media and. things like that and helping them get. through life which is really hard right. now and and that's what he's doing um.

and then you look at Dr Whitley right so. she's she's working in the space force. she's trying to you know help people. deal with the fact that they're seeing. things that you know that could down. planes and things like that and she's. helping people talk about that she's. helping people um each person person in. you know is somehow doing what I'm I'm. suggesting that I think is an out this. kind of structural Injustice that we see. so I think that this is a. transformational thing without the drugs.

is what's going on like some kind of. massive experience that people are. having and now it's getting out and. people are being able to talk to each. other through Reddit communities and you. know different types of social media so. it is um it's it's we did see you know. religions when they begin they become. viral at one point we've never seen it. in an age where we have digital. technology but this is what we're seeing. now what do you think the physical.

objects are well okay so this is. something that's very interesting we. just looked at the Shroud of Turin I. believe that there are these I would. call them and this is just my own. non-scientific term um interdimensional. objects they're objects that have. characteristics of our Dimension and. some other. dimension so some other dimension has.

the capability or something from some. other dimension has the capability of. transporting a physical object into our. realm or even imprinting onto a physical. object yeah how so well I don't know I. mean I think that's mean by what does. that mean imprinting onto with the. shroud of Trin we see the imprint of you. know the image and if it's real yeah. yeah if it's real um but it's it's an. anomalous object so we do have from Gary.

Nolan engineered objects that we don't. know how they're engineered but they. definitely look like they're you know. it's it's off. planet um I would call the kinds of. things that we see in the historical. record interdimensional types of things. now how I don't know Joe okay so I'm I. just don't know but I do think that. scientists in the government know that. these things exist and they would like. to figure it out and so part of. disclosure the disclosure movement is.

outsourcing this and trying to get as. many people as possible to to help and. figuring it. out what do you think when they use the. term. donations what do you think the purpose. of that is if there is a a an object. that is purposely released into who are. you know like I'm sure you're aware of. cargo Cults right so with cargo Cults. for people that don't know there's been. some islands uh during World War I and. World War II where planes landed there.

and they left and these people to they. created these statues of these planes. and they worshiped them and they and. they wanted them to come back yes they. because they got food and you know all. kinds of wonderful things from the PLS. right but they thought them as thought. the them as deities right the same way. we would think of something from. somewhere else yeah yeah so yeah that in. my field has been called the cargo cult. the UFO cargo cult right and um.

obviously Tyler and James view these. parts as as donate they call it the. donation site right so giving it the. idea that is that just one. Theory yeah that's just one Theory are. there other theories that there's a. biological organism that encounters a. lightning storm and it actually crashes. and there's physical bodies oh yeah. there is that yeah there's that going. what's your take on that cuz that's one. of the things that grush talked about. and some of the other people talked.

about that there there are biological. things that have been recovered well. what impressed me about the way about. what he said was that he used the term. biologics and I actually know that term. because that's the same term that Tyler. was talking about when he was creating. materials in anti-gravity spaces on on. space shuttles and such so I was. wondering because David grush does get. his information from people in allegedly. in the programs but he's never seen.

these materials that I know of he I. think he has some firsthand experience. that he was not able to talk about okay. that he's alluding to okay I think but. this is a this is recent and he's been. very careful about how he releases this. information and what he's able to Rel. relase and not able to. release and that that I was like. okay I mean I've not seen any any bodies. nor have I seen intact craft but I also.

have had now remember I don't have a. clearance like he has so I can actually. talk about what people have told me I. have had people tell me that yes Diana. there are intact craft I don't know I. mean maybe uh. so I don't know Joe have you um studied. Bob. Lazar okay yes I always asked about Bob. Lazar yeah and I don't know but I can. tell you that people that I've met who.

are associated with the programs tell me. that he's he he's right now I know his. background and I know you know all the. things I I don't I don't have an opinion. one way or the other but I can also say. that a lot of times people with very. disturb been backgrounds you know who. could be easily discredited are given. information and shown things and told. things well I would think that that's. sort of like a little Escape Clause yeah. I think so I think it is I mean the.

guy's obviously a genius and was. obviously a propulsion expert and put a. [ __ ] jet engine on a Honda in like. the 1980s he's a f fascinating guy yeah. yeah and um you know he claims that. there's some element some element that. that exists other in other places in the. universe which leads me to. believe well not even to believe but. like so here's the question are some of. these things from other planets is that.

also in the equation I mean just because. something is traveling. interdimensionally we do know that there. are an infinite number of planets yeah. in the universe I mean we have no idea. how many of them are capable of. supporting humanlike life or some other. kind of life or an infinite number of. varieties of life and if that life can. do what we've done and get to some part.

of its progression where it's capable of. creating what we're calling artificial. intelligence or super advanced. technology why wouldn't it come here yes. I have I'm not dis I'm not discounting. it ET so that could be there too I think. so espe especially because of the ways. in which the materials are being. manufactured off Planet like the ones. that we just saw you know that you know. and that was inform formation when I met.

Tyler 2014 and now it's a full-on thing. that's happening right so it's it's a. supercharged program of creating things. that will help us off Planet I mean. certainly. then yeah I think so I mean but I don't. know. right so I have to just be honest so it. might be a bunch of different things. happening all at the same time. interdimensionally. extraterrestrial something from a. distant Galaxy that's figured out some.

new method of propulsion that's beyond. our imagination that can visit and then. also things that are coming here from. other. dimensions yes and even recently. somebody had you know yeah well I can't. say any I can't say I'm sorry I don't. want to be that person that goes on your. show and says oh I can't I can't say. that but I. probably the most likely there are um. CRA if there's crash retrieval part you.

know crash retrievals here on Earth. perhaps there are in space as. well do you when they talk about. inventions that emerged post Roswell. that's one of the uh points of. speculation is that we have back. engineered something and that this led. to the creation of fiber optics and a. lot of other technologies that seemed to. emerge after that time yeah uh part so.

this question was prominent in my mind. in 2012 when I met jacqu Val so I was. already aware of his work even as a not. a person who hadn't studied UFOs or even. believed in them jacqu V is just one of. these people right that you come across. his work and he's fascinating. so I thought it was strange that Not. only was he a person who was you know. pre-engineered arpanet right he was on. arpanet which is pre- internet he was.

creating that at the same time as being. obsessed with UFOs and doing you know. being a ethologist these things seemed. that they had to be together right. there's something that you know what's. going on here so um and I'm in touch. with him um often. and he says a lot of things that are. rather cryptic but sometimes I ask him. spe. specifically was was what you were doing.

on arpet related to back engineered UFO. parts and then he'd say something like. there are many secrets in Silicon Valley. or something like that yeah yeah he's. real cryptic he's kind of difficult to. have a conversation with publicly you. well it does have a lot I guess there. are lots of secrets in Silicon Valley of. course which is where he lives yeah um. another thing that was really. fascinating about your book was you're. talking about how much religion he.

studied yes yes that was really. interesting so in the book what I do is. I uncover not just him but Alan heck. they were friends and they were both Ros. secretions which is a a form of he might. not like me to say this but it's a form. of mystical Christianity in a sense but. a lot of rossau crucians don't view. their Roots as Christian they they look. at it as Egyptian and but it's basically. it's an esoteric tradition and it.

involves meditation I think it most. likely involves this thing that you and. I have been discussing in this the whole. talk so far is the pineal gland thing. you know the the access point because. both of them believe in this kind of. life this meditating and things like. that and so I included references. everything I say in my books by the way. I pass to the person that I'm writing. the chapter about so everything that I. said about jacqu I gave it to him. beforehand and I said are you okay with.

me saying this publicly and so it passed. all the the tests um and I also talk. about going to his apartment and seeing. his um Library which is an amazing. Library um and he has Stained Glass from. chart uh Cathedral. uh in chartz cedral is a special place. for rosans like a special place of. presence of the Sacred so and he. actually did those himself so he learned. how to do stain glass from people at.

chartre by the way and yeah just amazing. and he had a lot of books on angels and. and fallen angels in that Library like. uh almost like it it was almost like. going into the Vatican archive going. into this place because these looked. like first editions or closeth so you. know really really old books about this. topic Fallen Angel yeah I was pretty. shocked when I had when I went I was we. were going to have lunch and talk about. the crash site and maybe talk about you.

know what I learned from Tyler and that. kind of thing and we went to lunch and. then he said do you want to see the. library and I was like yes of course so. I saw the handwritten documents from. Project Blue Book um and that was just. going into the library that wasn't. actually in the library then when we got. in there um I noticed a big bookcases of. these books and of course I was drawn to. them and he said he picked out one and. he opened it and it was about angels and. he said this is the you know this is a. book about angels and I could see that.

and I was looking at I was like Wow and. then I looked at the other bookshelf and. that bookshelf was just as impressive. and then it was about fallen angels He. said oh this one's about fallen angels. and then he made a joke and he said you. can't have one without the other and I. thought that yeah I thought that was. really. interesting that does seem to line with. what we're talking about with like the. struggle of Good and Evil it does that's. what he said too and um and I was. actually shocked at that point I was. like wow so just you know be I'm a.

professor of religion you know so I'm. like I'm right about you know my. intuition was somehow confirmed and by. the way I think people I think this. should be re I'm not sure if this is. totally true but I I believe he was the. inspiration for the French character in. Close Encounters of the Third Kind I. think so yeah yeah which makes sense. absolutely because H's in there and then. there's him yeah yeah. yeah it's wild stuff yeah what do you. make of the reports of this craft that's.

supposedly 40 feet long and you get. inside of it it's big as a football. field oh oh that one okay yeah so the. time dimensions and okay so people I. know who do the work and our physicists. they describe this in Quantum language. which I can't cannot replicate at all. but this is how they're describing it. they're saying that the and by the way. it's really interesting that you know. when I'm doing my research into the. Catholic history and I'm looking at some.

of the things that we can do now. technologically that it looks very you. know like people back then were like. this is a miracle right okay so what. they're doing is a similar type of. process or method so basically what. they're doing is they're looking at. people's descriptions and data of craft. right and they're then identifying the. patterns and they're saying if there was. a Quantum field this would make perfect. sense right so if this was occurring in. a Quantum field this would make sense.

that this thing would look small in the. outside and you go in it and it's. immense yeah. yeah why do you think this information. is getting released why do you think. it's becoming a more mainstream. acceptable thing to discuss. because to the average person that sees. this the the thought I think sort of. naturally goes to this idea that some. sort of contact is inevitable some sort.

of Revelation some sort of landing on. the White House lawn type. deal okay I have a couple thoughts on. that the first one is that part of the. reason is. because China is now in space so before. it was us and Russia we were the only. ones we were together actually so you. know we were aligned even though at many. points we're enemies on Earth in space.

we weren't enemies we were working. together using each other's equipment so. also keeping the secrets that perhaps. we're seeing in space but now that other. countries are going into space whatever. is up there will be known and I think. part of it has to do with this phenomena. and so that's why it's urgent to get. this message. out that's that's one of my ideas um. another well I have some other ideas but. that's the one that's most prominent is.

because I just don't think that it's. going to be a secret for very much. longer and in fact right now a lot you. know Chinese are you know they are going. into space and they are like you know. looking at things. and so from a national security. standpoint it's important to sort of. move this conversation further. accelerate it I think. so are you. hopeful with all this information that.

you have are you hopeful about the. direction that the world is. going I would say that I'm. simultaneously. hopeful and. horrified okay and and how can you be. both um I just just am because it seems. like a lot of things are happening that. are terrible and will continue to happen. and may even ramp up okay at the same. time there is what I believe to be an.

Awakening happening as well and I think. that's also going to ramp up and as long. as we have some portion of the. collective awake I think there's. hope all right let's wrap it up on that. well thank you very much for being here. I really appreciate it fascinating. fascinating conversation when more stuff. comes out let's do it again okay sounds. good okay thank you very much absolutely. all right bye.

[Music]. [Applause]. everybody.