Joe Rogan Experience #2058 - Elliott West

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day hello sir hello thanks for doing. this I really appreciate it you're quite. welcome I really enjoyed you on the. meater podcast and uh that's why I. reached out and uh I started uh reading. your uh the book on the Nez purse M and. then I I picked this up as well. Continental recording that is that's a.

hell of a book a big book that's a big. book How long did it take you to write. this the writing probably uh 8 to 10. years the uh research and so forth more. than more than 20 years yeah wow yeah. long time so this is a lifetime of work. Continental Reckoning the American West. in the age of expansion one of the most. fascinating subjects I think in the. history of the human race I mean it is. just such it's such an amazing story and. such a tragic story story and such a.

crazy story of the amount of change that. took place over a relatively short. period of time yeah 30 years yeah and. how little most people really understand. about the actual history of the Native. Americans and and that one of the things. that was most fascinating about the. mediator podcast was that at the time. that Lewis and Clark had come to America. a hundred years before that there had. been Native Americans that had traveled.

to France that's right and met with the. king that's right yep yep yep um that's. right uh 18 or. 1720s uh there was a group of of native. people from Kansas Missouri area and. they had been accorded by the French. because the French wanted to expand. their fur trade into uh into that area. up the Missouri River so they uh and the. Spanish had recently suffered a terrible. military defeat there in sort of what's. today Eastern Eastern Nebraska so so so.

the French sent this guy named I borgar. to make contact and he already had. contact there in fact he had a son by. one of the women in the Missour tribe uh. made contact made some friends made some. allies uh courted them and then to sort. of seal the deal he took back a. delegation of about six Indians now this. is from Eastern Nebraska which tribe was. this there were several tribes the. missouria tribe the Illinois tribe.

uh I think some o AG U and they were uh. then he then took them back from there. down the Mississippi down to New Orleans. and then over across the Atlantic to. laav and then they went by coach from. there to Paris uh and they spent several. months there in Paris being fitted by. King Louis the 15th uh visiting the. Paris Opera which they said was a great. place full of. sorcerers Sorcerers sorcerers why did.

they describe it as Sorcerers I I think. they figured uh these people are just. sort of transformed for their eyes you. know they just became somebody else. they're great actors of course I think. that was it uh they saw this famous. puppet show on a put n uh bridge and. they said it was uh this place was. inhabited by small. dwarfs and they love they loved it had. they were taken to the court of fonte. blue uh. they they showed their uh expertise at. hunting by riding bearback and the B.

bone you know the Royal Woods naked and. bearback shooting uh. pheasants had a great time one of them a. woman who was in fact the the woman who. had born bergman's child uh she married. a a sergeant in. notra they had they had a wonderful time. and the the men liked just about. everything except uh except the men. other men the French B uh they said they. were sort of feminite and and and. they said they said they smell like.

alligators. alligators interesting yeah but this was. uh you know this 1720s so that's uh. that's what 80 years or something before. before Lewis and Clark even made it out. to that area that is so fascinating now. what was the language barrier how did. they communicate well uh there were. bourgmont himself uh had uh lived for. years uh among the Indians and it was an. expert on the Missouri River so he was. he was a Frenchman who came over uh.

enlisted in the Army deserted uh sort of. went native became a you know Kur deah a. a French Mountain Man uh took up with. the Indians uh had this child by this. woman so he knew he knew the languages. quite well uh and there were other. remember these these Indians as you can. tell in the story uh were very. Cosmopolitan you know very sophisticated. they knew English or some some of them. did uh so I think the point to remember. is that this long before our image of.

Americans you coming into this area. there was all sorts of contact uh. between uh native peoples and Europeans. all sorts of exchanges uh it was really. a mixed world a world that was far more. complex far more interesting in my. opinion uh than the than the usual way. that we that we remember it to put it. into perspective it's it's it's hard to.

it's hard for us in. 2023 to look back at this time period. and and really have a context for it but. to put it into. perspective so first Europeans arrive. here essentially in the. 1400s right oh yes the very very first. very first late very late 1400s so this. is 200 plus years after that that's. right so we're essentially talking about. us thinking about the 1820s.

yeah right that's right so there was. hundreds of years of. Europeans slowly making their way across. the continental United. States that's right Spanish coming up. from the south of course Daka cabesa. Daka uh 1520s uh French coming in quite. early up to the what's today the. Northeast Eastern Canada uh that have. been going on across a long time uh. before the English began their very slow. and timid EXP expion into the uh beyond.

the Appalachians so it's interesting. because if you ask the general public. about the expansion they they seem to. put it into the time period of the 1800s. that's right but there was so much more. going on hundreds of years of that which. is hard for us to imagine again it's. like us thinking that the 1800s like. 1823 was just yesterday it wasn't right. long time ago so there's hundreds of. years before that yeah that's right and.

that had been going on slowly sort of a. slow simmer of these two of these. cultures the cultures coming together. you know uh and so um there many ways. you know which the Indians were far more. sophisticated and well traveled far. traveled uh than the than the Americans. who were who were coming in there we. think you know our our national myth has. it that when Lewis and Clark this is in. you know 184 186 leis and Clark make. their way up to Missouri River into the. West that's sort of the start.

of the history of the West before that. right uh Lewis's famous quote as they. left the Mandan villages in 185 says. we're uh heading up he compared himself. to Columbus they said we're heading into. this place where the the foot of. civilized man has never. trotten not true not true no well to the. best of their knowledge well which is. interesting also right the amount of. information that was available back then. it was so difficult to find out what was. going on well sure just like today you. know information is power right and you.

don't want to let your Imperial Rivals. know what's out there you don't want. them to know what you know right so it's. these sort of State Secrets yeah so have. you read uh the uh cabesa debaca book uh. a strange new land yes I have a land so. strange a land so strange strange and. rendus which is a fascinating book. because they. essentially document the spread of. disease without meaning to do it because.

that that is really where it all started. from a lot of it did yeah it's a. wonderful book yeah it's an amazing book. and you know they talk about culture. they like they talk about the Mayas and. you know there's always been this. confusion as to what happened to the. Mayas but it's probably the same exact. thing that happened to 90 plus per of. the Native Americans that contacted. small pox maybe uh the Mayers declined a. good bit before that but but who knows. it's very hard to say but certainly. disease uh was a very important factor. uh and the conquest of native peoples.

and the and the uh conquest by Europeans. of of North America and South America. yeah is it clearly established that. cabesa debacco was one of the first. Europeans to make it to the to the. continental United States or was was it. possible that others had made it before. that but we we don't have record of it. he was the first to move to encounter. what we know today as Southwest uh he. was part of a Shipwrecked Expedition on. the Texas coast uh and he and a few.

others including a black uh SL African. slave estban Steven uh they were the. ones who made their way first enslaved. by the Indians uh and then they. gradually made their way across the. Southwest up to you know what is today. Arizona like the zunis uh and then made. their way Southward into Mexico fabulous. Journey what a story it's an insane. story and if you look at the history of. the human race across the across the the. planet rather it's one of the most. transformative stories in such a short.

amount of time where everything changed. so rapidly because it it coincides with. the Industrial Revolution and all these. things happen and and then you have. massive cities appearing in these places. where there was nothing before yeah oh. that's a bit later yeah but it's all. over this period of a few hundred years. which is such a transformative time. period that's right if you think of as. sort of a I think of it as kind of a a. curve of change a graph right now we got. to remember all kinds of changes up and.

down up and down before long before the. Europeans came you know the rise and. fall of civilizations fantastic stories. about that yeah so there's that but then. the Europeans come to come into this. area and that that line just goes goes. straight up very and it keeps and it. keeps accelerating keeps accelerating so. uh it's important to remember that um. change has been going on for 15,000. years and what's was today the United.

States uh interesting changes that I. think people don't recognize nearly. enough and they ought to they ought to U. but the pace of that change uh. accelerates at this uh really. astonishing astonishing degree well they. keep pushing back the date of modern. humans in North America as well you know. it used to be Clovis first and then the. discovery these 22,000 year old. Footprints and right white s yeah yeah. now they don't even know I mean maybe. there's some stuff that we haven't found.

that predates that considerably I. suspect there is that's one of the. that's one of these questions that we. thought we had answered right right but. as as usual we hadn't and that. question's been very vigorously argued. yeah recently all sorts of new uh new. discoveries in places that we didn't. know there were people before until. fairly recently like to Amazon you all. of a sudden we are defining these sites. in the Amazon we have no idea who these.

people were they don't seem to be. culturally related to others in South. America where they come from right when. did they get there right yeah I've. discussed this many times with Graham. Hancock and uh one of the things that he. has brought up recently is the use of. lidar and then through this use of liar. they found these grids and what appears. to be irrigation systems and streets and. structures and Foundations and all of it. unexplained yeah and. all of it was essentially covered by.

vast rainforest right yep until until. fairly recently it's really on the. couple last two or three generations. that we've begun to even poke our way. into that place to begin to feel this. out U theer Roosevelt's granddaughter. incidentally was one of the key figures. in in investigating this really an. anthropologist yeah she was really. interesting um do you think that with. the Amazon that we're looking at disease.

there as well that it's probably. European settlers came and or me exp. explain the I doubt that this these. these go way those ruins seem to go way. way way back I mean thousands of years. before the Europeans show up so there's. no explanation for the decline like. maybe some other diseases or something. like that we don't know just we don't. know a whole lot about what diseases. were here before the Europeans uh but uh. I don't know I suspect it's if you look. at any civilization it. Rises Peaks yes collapses um one of the.

more interesting things that we found. was that when you look at the rise of. syphilis in Europe that some are. connecting at least some forms of. syphilis to European settlers who had. come to America and then gone back to. Europe yep and brought civilis with them. yep that too is being argued about right. now but right now the evidence is quite. clear uh and we're we're talking about. venial C now syphilis can also be kind.

of a skin infection that was there. before but the first. documented cases of syphilis the last. time I checked uh a very suspicious time. a very suspicious Place uh it was in. Spain in. 1493 you know that's pretty. close seem circumstantially pretty clear. you know that that you know Columbus's. folks brought that back. another thing it was also absolutely.

devastating which suggests that this was. a new disease it was not one that we had. begun to you know we've been around uh. for any length of time uh terrible. effects uh uh fatal you know Insanity. fatalities so that seems pretty clear. there's also evidence of syphilitic bone. damage among native peoples going way. back in in North America so I think it's. pretty safe to uh to say that well we've. talked about it before on the show but.

it's really interesting that that's the. origin of the term. bigwig that really did you know about. that okay great I'm going to tell you. something okay so there was uh see if. you could find out who these French. Royals were but there was uh these uh. French Royals who contacted syphilis. they started losing their hair and so. they started wearing these they put. these beautiful wigs on and the more. money you had the bigger your wig was. and it became because the syphilis had.

just run rampant through this population. so many people were losing their hair. and they would get these holes in their. face sores it was really horrific so. these are the gentlemen saniel how do. you say his name papy how would you say. that peeps peeps um so at the time hair. loss is a one-way ticket to public. embarrassment long hair was a trendy. status symbol and a bald Dome could. stain any reputation while saniel Peep's. brother acquired the dius wrote if my.

brother lives he will not be able to. show his head which would be a very. great shame to me hair was that big of a. deal and so the syphilis outbreak. sparked a surge in wig making victims. hid their baldness as well as their. bloody Soares that scored scoured their. faces with wigs made of horse goat or. human hair Peres were also coated with. powder scented with lavender or orange. to hide any funky Aromas although common. wigs were not exactly stylish they were. a shameful necess. that changed in 1655 when the king of.

France started losing his hair and so. these guys started wearing wigs and. everybody started wearing wigs and the. bigger your wig was the more famous and. Rich and established you were so the. term Big Wigs so you're a big wig yeah. that wild that's a wonderful story cuz I. mean I heard about that that when I was. a kid oh he's a big wig like that had. made it to the 1980s like yeah. absolutely I think you and I should look. into this no I'm good I like being baled.

too it's comfortable it's so easy you. don't have to talk to Barbers shave your. head yourself I enjoy it and have a good. shaped head so I'm lucky some people. have some funky heads so you got a good. head too thank you so. much so that is a sto that is part of. the story is this exchange of. disease and the the lack of immunity and. how much of a devastating effect this. had on the North Americans who did. encounter the Europeans that's right. that's right uh and that's very well.

established now now we're we're coming. to understand that in a more. sophisticated way now. uh for instance uh it's not quite the. it's not quite true that Indians had no. immunity to it or that we that our. immunity protected us when we went there. it's more typically a case of these. diseases like small pox for example um. if you got it as a child if got it's. like measles today you know or pumps you. know or chicken POG you know you watch.

your kids to get those because um then. they're. immune and later on it's a much more. devastating disease if you get it as an. adult as as a grownup do we know. why you know I'm not I'm not at all sure. I think it's because it when you're. young like that you can deal with it. more effectively I'm I'm not sure but it. is a case especially viruses like small. po box you know you're then you then. gain lifetime immunity so what probably.

was going on was that small box are so. common in Europe that the Europeans who. came over here had likely had it when. they were kids and so they it wasn't. that they had genetic immunity to it. right that previous exposure right also. the fact that especially later on when. time passes uh the greater mortality R. among Indians was because of the general. degeneration of their condition you just. like when we see in Co you know people.

who are the poorest people who are have. the least medical care people who are. they're the ones who are most vulnerable. the oldest yeah yeah and right ones with. mortality or comorbidities yeah but. what's um absolutely incontestable is. that the effect of diseases on Indian. peoples was absolutely catastrophic uh. and it goes a long way toward explaining. how the Europeans were able to uh take. control of the continent as quick as. quickly as they did yeah there's some.

estimations that 90% of the Native. Americans yeah died from disease that's. right it's uh well the population. declined by as much as 90 or even. 94% uh disease is an important factor. but now think of it now. when if small pox hits an Indian village. let's say uh in The. Dakotas it kills unlike other diseases. small pox is sort of democratic in the. sense that it kills all ages right it.

kills the most productive it kills the. hunters it kills the mothers who are. nursing their children so these. secondary effects of that kind of loss. what would happen if if Austin Texas. lost 40% of its people and the other 60%. May survive but not for long you know. the whole system everything collapses so. it's a uh it's a absolutely devastating. effect when you have those kinds of. those kinds of epidemics so you have.

this kind of epidemic and then you have. this Rush of human beings that have come. over from Europe and have they come over. what what was the primary motivation for. them coming over here was it to seek a. better life was it gold mining Silver. mining what was the the first initial. wave there various answers various. answers to that uh keep in mind these. were all initially at least Imperial. Enterprises you know it wasn't just.

Frenchmen coming over it was the French. government trying to establish an Empire. there that they could profit from uh the. Spanish same thing U now when the. English came over theirs was a a. combination of governmental uh ambition. uh and a business Enterprise but in any. case this was all being directed you. know by others in Europe for their own. ends not the ones who were coming over. you know but they were there they were. trying to do it for their own for their.

own purposes uh then that raises the. question who so the ones who came over. you know why were they there and I think. that the most common answer is the one. you suggested better lives right got to. remember you know in Europe uh. especially places like England uh land. was very scarce so the possibility of. some being born into the peasantry or. being born uh you know the lower ranks. the possibility of them acquiring land.

was you know beyond. remote and then somebody says okay if. you just go across the Atlantic we'll. give you. land we'll give you a new start right. and that's a that's very seductive it's. fascinating because that pessimism seems. to still be prevalent in a lot of. English people this P this pessimism as. far as like your ability to improve your. lifestyle yeah you know I've have many.

uh English friends that have come over. here and say the attitude in America is. that like you can you can go out and you. can forge your own path you could do. things but in England there's this like. yeah it's very they're very dismissive. of that yeah yeah I think that's I think. there's something something to that yeah. yeah there is that sort of American. Spirit the but the kind of people that. would take that kind of chance to get on. a boat and go across the ocean with no. photographs to look at I mean what did. they have a sketch that someone a Story.

a tale a pile of gold that someone had. brought back well they had not they had. accounts they had lies being told to. them a lot of lies a lot of lies they. were um but you know what we the big. lies the big lies oh that you know you. would you Pro Prosper instantly uh there. was a uh a very healthy place you great. place to raise a family. right the usual ones um but these were. again they were promoters uh they were.

Imperial promoters uh they were private. promoters you the first English colonies. uh Jamestown uh and then Plymouth uh and. then Massachusetts Bay those were all. businesses you know they were. corporations yeah it was like uh Walmart. establishing a colony on the moon or. something so they're promoting it. they're trying to persuade people to go. over there to develop it uh to raise uh. tobacco you know to give them to give. them their profits so huge promotional.

scheme mhm yeah just uh the kind of. human that did that really sort of. establishes the ethic of what it means. to be an American because these are wild. risk-taking people and these are the. people that essentially first. established America I mean these or as. far as Europeans these you have to be a. wild person to take that kind of a. chance it's a big chance but of course.

that's always balanced between uh the. what appears to be a dead end life from. where they were right all immigration. you know is a sort of a push and a pull. right that's the mo America had a great. pull but they're also being pushed it's. also extraordinary that there was this. enormous continent far bigger than. Europe that was available that you know. that you could go there and establish a. new life to I mean yeah what a what a. marketing promotion. oh yeah imagine now uh as I tell my I'm.

retired now but I used to tell my. classes uh imagine that uh suddenly you. the news hits that there is another. Universe right uh that we didn't know. was there and number two you could go. there you could actually go there yeah. what an idea yeah what a crazy idea yeah. yeah my came over here in the 1920s from.

both sides and they they came over from. Europe with this idea that you know. America was better than what was. available in Italy and Ireland and you. know that was something that had already. been really pretty well. established go a 100 years earlier than. that 200 years earlier than that the. these are incredible risks that these. people took yeah yeah they were you know. and you have to sort of Mark Marvel at. it at the same time ask yourself would.

you do that you know I don't think so. yeah we can look at it from that. perspective Marvel at it but man from. the perspective of the natives that. lived here what a horrific Invasion and. what a devastating effect it had on. their way of life their culture and how. much is missing from their cultural. memory because of this Devastation of. 90% of their population. yeah yeah uh except for the Black Death. uh this was the most horrific thing that.

has ever happened in recorded human. history to Indian peoples uh in the new. world nothing remotely approaches it. except the black death except the uh the. bonic. plague and even even then when you. consider it when you track it over time. Bubonic plague of course Came In Waves. occasional waves if you look at this as. one story over 400 years uh it's it's by. itself nothing like it well it's not. only by itself for human beings but it's.

also by itself for Native Wildlife which. is another incredible aspect of this. story of American expansion um I watched. the Ken Burns documentary on the. American buffalo and you were in that as. well yes and in that as well as Steve. Rella and that is that is a crazy story. that no wildlife in this country can can. survive being a. commodity and it might survive but it's.

going to have a real tough time that's. right barely I mean we had to put the. brakes on it in order for it to survive. and it when it and we were able to put. the brakes on it because it was no. longer profitable as long as it's a. profitable commodity. yeah it's in real trouble but that also. contributed to the the demise of Native. Americans of course particularly the. ones who hunted the Buffalo that's right. well not just the buffalo buffalo were. just you know the most dramatic.

example of dozens. scores of species of animals uh in the. New World in North America that were. driven to this either to extension. completely or uh really close to it uh. Dan Flores I think he's been on your. coup times yeah uh Dan has this. marvelous new book a wild new world uh. that goes into that goes in that in some. detail and describ and u i remember from.

the book Dan says that um at no point in. modern history have so many different. species been eradicated so quickly so. quickly yeah and of and of course you. made of the essential Point what that is. it's not just that they're being hunted. and uh exploited uh for the profit of. people who are coming into that's really. part of an even larger process that is. the complete. transformation of a.

world that's one of the things that I. try to emphasize in this book uh between. 1850 in 1880 yeah the Western third of. North America was literally remade. ecologic not just culturally socially. ecologically ecologically it was made. over into a new world uh and that world. of course was not one that native. peoples knew how to work m their their. existence relied on them being able.

relied on centuries of knowledge gain. from this intricate understanding and. use sort of choreographed life uh of. this of this place of this place relying. upon its resources animals also plants. of course uh crops and so forth and the. Europeans come in and they just. transform. it quickly very quickly very quickly uh. so what are you going to do that is what. defeated the Indians it wasn't the.

military it was this transformation of. their world into another one world into. another in which they didn't fit so they. simply had no choice but to do what they. were told for going to live now when it. comes to the American Bison there. certainly was uh a market hunting aspect. of it that they were hunting them for. their tongues they were hunting them for. their hides but there was also it seems. like there was a motivation to remove.

the Native Americans ability to sustain. themselves or was that a just a. peripheral was that. like it's a little. complicated as usual right you're. talking about two things here first when. you're talking about the uh I think it's. fair to say that Indian peoples had. their own hand in this what's Buffalo. robes that is you take take a take a. usually a cow hide and you process you.

scrape it out you and you work it you. work it into a robe um soly those became. quite popular uh in the East uh in. England uh and in Europe it sort of this. exotic thing to have in your house you. know you put it on the wall or you put. it make it into a rug or you use it as a. uh you're out in a in a carriage in the. winter you would have these things it. was it was uh something that was. interesting something it was all of a. sudden it was of fashion kind of a fad. and suddenly there is this great market.

for these things uh for Indian Hunters. native Hunters they've been killing. bison of course for their own uses but. now they would do both that and for. their hides which they could turn into. robes which would give them this. unprecedented. affluence it was this business boom. among them and also warmth and the. ability to sustained during winter sure. well I mean they had always used for. that now it was a commodity when did.

that shift and what what caused that. shift that was in the uh 1820s is when. it really when it really booms suddenly. you know there's this uh exotic uh thing. that you can get from the American West. that's that's kind of cool to have right. so that's in the 1820s and it's a huge. trade you know hundreds of thousands of. robes are sent down the Missouri and the. Mississippi down to be marketed uh. marketed out of new Guardians uh and to. be and to be and to be sent.

East that had an early effect on the. decline of the Bison population uh and. my own I own research and work on this. uh I think that something close to a. half of the Bison population at its peak. um is explained by that sort of hunting. and other kinds of ecological and. environmental changes uh that were going. on in the west so long with before the. hid Hunters the white those white hid.

Hunters went out there and started. killing them Indians were killing them. and essentially for the same reason in. other words Indians themselves became. caught up in this commodification uh. caught up in this International Trade. right um and they began to feel the. effects of it by the 1850s there's this. noticeable shortage decline of of Bison. population so they're. already under pressure and then and then.

somebody figures out 1872 we know. exactly the year 1872 somebody figures. out that you can take a bison hi high. and you can turn it into industrial. leather in the 1870s there was a. worldwide leather. shortage the reason was uh. industry factories needed leather for. gaskets. for these uh machines uh belts and these.

things a huge demand for it uh both here. uh and in England and in Europe most of. that leather have been coming from. Argentina the huge herds in Argentina. but they're about tapped out so there's. this huge demand this huge there's this. big pressing economic question how. where's the leather going to come from. there there hundreds of new factories. being built all the time right suddenly. somebody figures out.

buffalos wow they can give it so the. Buffalo got it from both sides that's. right that's right have you read Dan. flores's work on the reason why there. was these immense Buffalo herds in the. first place sure he believes that with. the decline of the Native American. population because of disease that led. to an unprecedented rise in the Buffalo. and then when the Europeans came and saw. these millions of Buffalo on the plane. that this was not. normal that this was something akin to.

like if you go to uh populations like in. my neighborhood my my neighborhood is. overrun with white tailed deer it's. crazy how many of them there are and. white tailed deer at one point in time. were on the verge of Extinction in the. United States that's right because of. Market hunting that's right but that he. says that he believes that this insane. number of Bison that people at first. witnessed that this was because the. Native Americans had declined so much. there was no pressure on them yeah.

that's a good argument I think it's hard. very hard to prove uh but Dan and I I've. had that conversation before uh and um I. think there might well be something to. it you know the classic classic thing. like Yellowstone you know you get rid of. the Wolves the elk population booms. right right yeah you get rid of the um. get rid of predators the beaver. population booms and all of a sudden all. the Creeks are damned and every land's. flooded so it's yeah so it's a yeah it's. just think this extraordinarily. intricate relationship and connection.

that we have with the world around us. and you mess with anyone part of it and. U the rest of it's going to change and. human beings love to mess with things we. do especially yeah we do especially when. we came to a place that we didn't really. have an understanding of the ecosystem. like that's right like North America. yeah um another thing that Dan talks. about that's really fascinating was that. horses. originated from North America MH but. were wiped out but had already been. transferred to Europe and to other parts.

of the world and then were reintroduced. when Europeans came here what year was. that when that started happening well. uh you're right of course they evolved. on the Southern Plains uh over 50. million years from a critter called a. Hier cium uh which is about the size of. a Collie into the modern into the modern. horse that took millions of years uh and. fairly late in that story that is to say. only two or three million years ago uh.

they migrated along with all kinds of. other animal camels for example evolved. alongside horses that's C in the. southwest um and they made that trip you. know over beringia over the uh the land. bridge there bearing Street yeah into um. what was the largest pasture on Earth. you know Central Asia and there their. population exploded uh and there they to. evolve and they became zebras headed. south into into into Africa that is.

crazy they became uh you know asses uh. so all the equids uh evolve from those. horses coming out of New Mexico that is. so crazy that zerus came out of New. Mexico that's right pushing far back. enough that's right wow U so they boomed. over there uh but uh you know at the end. of the last ice age end of the pl during. in the Wisconsin at the end of the. Wisconsin glaciation um the world.

changes we're going through kind of a. climate change U as we have today. warming and that changes the ecology. completely and all kinds of animals in. especially in North America became. extinct dozens of species became extinct. it's like 65% of or all North American. large megap yeah yep yep uh you know we. had an American lion yeah m we had of. course the saber-tooth tiger the. Smilodon American cheetah the American.

cheetah yeah we had. armadilla the size of Volkswagen bugs. really up until when with this extension. wow and 12,000 13,000 years ago there. was giant armadillos that's right that's. right wow so you know they would run. over cars the cars didn't run over there. but wow so uh and you know the list just. goes on and on uh they uh. uh all of these animals suddenly. disappeared because of this partly.

because of this ecological change now. there's an argument uh that it wasn't. just that the question is okay uh the LI. angles extinct in America didn't go. extinct in. Africa horses go extinct in America they. didn't go extinct over there but it was. a global change so what's the. difference the argument is people uh. people by that point had just been able. to make their way over in the other.

direction you know you you know peringia. was was a two-way street two-way Highway. and there were animals coming over from. Asia at the same time that American. animals were going over in the other. directions buffalo bison evolved in the. old world and then they came over here. uh real where where did they originate. from uh Central Asia wow yeah and and. also parts of Europe there was an animal. called Oro. that's uh that was a descendant also of. them were they just as furry do they.

look similar who knows who knows maybe. they changed and they were quite. different from the ones today uh the. ones that came over that dominated were. called Bison antiquus uh or bison. latifrons they were much larger much. larger uh bison antiquus if you can. imagine one now they you know the the. Bulls had these you know the horns. spread just like ours do the horn spread. of a bison. antiquus was great enough that uh Lebron.

James could lie down between the tips of. the horns and not touch not touch either. one wow so there were these gigantic. bison they became extinct and they were. then succeeded they were then you know. replaced by or followed by uh arabon uh. bison bison americanas yeah have you. ever read into the the younger drias. impact Theory into the what now younger.

drias impact the yeah yeah yeah Randall. Carlson has been on my podcast multiple. times he's a proponent of that and. there's a lot of scientific evidence in. terms of core samples and micro diamonds. that seem to indicate that around 11,800. years ago North America and a good 30%. of the world was hit when we passed. through a comet shower and that that was. the end of the Ice Age and that it. happened not just then but it happened. another time somewhere in the 10,000. range and that that was what melted.

almost instantaneously most of the North. American ice cap that covered half the. continent and miles of ice and all that. and that he thinks that that was the. origin of the mass extinction along with. human beings there was a combination of. those two things yeah I've I've heard. that idea but I don't frankly don't know. enough about it I'm trying to bring. Randall. together with someone who is an expert.

like Dan Flores we love to bring Randall. and Dan Flores together so they could. sort of compare notes both of them are. working on the same problem from. different angles yeah yeah yeah well. it's a fascinating one uh and it has to. do of course with what we were talking. about a little earlier uh human groups. right uh people were here what effect. did that have on on them yeah does that. explain you know some of these sudden. declines of. populations yeah don't know well it's so. interesting that we still have some. animals left over like the pronghorn.

antelope that moves at speeds that don't. make any sense considering the Predators. that are available for it they're so. much faster than everything else because. they had to evade the North American. cheetah that's right yep yeah there's a. wonderful book called ghosts of. Extinction uh and U that's exactly. exactly long also you know Pon horns. can't jump fences right they go under. them or they go under them or try to go. through them but they can't go over for. them and that's because no fences back. there right yeah pretty wild faster than.

hell you know they can they can outrun a. line but uh but they can't jump a fence. you would think that something that. could run that fast could also jump. you'd think do you think if you gave him. another million years they'd figure out. how to jump fences I feel pretty. confident they would right because white. tail deer do it like they're born to do. it right like a fence to them is just. like stepping over a branch oh I know we. have a we have a place out in the hills. in Arkansas and we got that's like you. said over run overrun with deer yeah. there's a place called Catalina Island. in California where they're they're the.

the what they're trying to do now is use. snipers and helicopters to wipe out the. deer population because no kidding yeah. cuz well they're on an island and. there's no Predators right which is a. shame it's it's a horrible shame they. starve yeah they starve diseases you. know CWD there's a lot of different. diseases that they can get hit with. because of this overpopulation yeah and. of course that's a kind of. context that you can put in the decline. of native peoples here what we're doing.

what we're doing is messing with the. ecological arrangement in ways that make. it impossible uh for certain thing for. animals that have adapted to that to. survive yeah the difference of course is. that Indians are human beings and human. beings have the imagination to imagine a. different way and to respond to it in. ways that others others can't what's one. of the more fascinating and horrific.

aspects of the story of the decline of. the native population in America is that. they had this incredibly unique. lifestyle that really wasn't it wasn't. available anywhere else in the world at. that time most of the rest of Europe and. Asia had sort of changed and moved to. Agriculture and moved to cities and. these people had these immense tribes. super sophisticated hunter gatherer. civilizations that lived in symbiosis.

with the land and to us people that sort. of understand how horrible it is that. that's happened we have this incredible. romantic attachment to to Native. Americans yeah yes a lot of ways we do. now there was of course agriculture here. yes and once today the United States uh. in the East uh highly sophisticated. forms of Agriculture growing a variet of. crops in the southwest uh relying. especially on on corn but you're right a.

good part of what's today in the United. States especially the West uh were. hunter gatherer peoples and Fishers um. they had figured out these ways to uh. these sort of the incredibly complicated. and complex uh uh practiced ways of. moving through their year uh month by. month week by week in ways that had they. had practiced in in learned about over. the over many generations uh that. allowed them a really a remarkably high.

standard of living um now they were not. large tribs that one of the. limitations of a hunter gather Society. uh is you cannot expand in numbers. Beyond a certain a certain limit about. 125 you know that's uh you get bigger. than that you really can't support it so. what you had was this. extraordinary splay this this. extraordinary uh. variety of of peoples you know hundreds.

hundreds of different Native. groups today there are 530 federally. recognized tribes in the United States. wow yeah U and that's just those are the. ones who have survived uh physically and. and culturally so there's this. remarkable uh array of peoples many of. them speaking different languages or. different dialects uh all of them in. contact with the with the others uh with. in these very uh intricate Tri uh trade.

relationships it was quite a place you. know and you're right it it it. flies um dramatically uh in the face of. what we think was going on back then. this romanticized simplistic view of the. Indian right they're just like this this. one group of people right it's also so. interesting that that number of 125. people aligns with we know as dunbar's. number that's exactly right that's where.

it comes right so you're aware of that. yeah wonderful book yeah yeah dunbar's. number meaning that we have in our mind. the ability to hold a c a relationship. with a certain number of people. intimately and then it as it spreads out. further we can know some people sort of. we kind of know of them and but there's. just a small group that would be your. family a larger group that would be your. tribe. and then there's neighboring tribes. that's right that's right it's a. fascinating idea it is fascinating.

because it shows our hard drive yeah we. have a mental hard drive that's sort of. designed yeah we do yeah he uses uh it's. a great book uh he uses uh the idea of. Gossip you know uh the go the the. maximum number in which gossip really. affects you. right you can't get above about 125 for. oh what the hell I don't care well it is. interesting because it seems like. there's a a biological maybe an. evolutionary reason for gossip of course.

yeah yeah sure uh and in in those. societies it played a very important. role because these groups typically had. nothing remotely like our system of. authority essentially nobody was in. charge yeah among many Western groups no. person in a particular band could tell. another another person to do anything no. one had that kind of authority right so. how do they stop people from you know.

being going nuts you know doing doing. horrible things it's it's it's uh it's. it's it's the groups the band's opinion. of you right you're. shamed they have uh they would often. have these characters sort of like town. criers you know someone would do. something awful and he'd walk through. the camp yelling about this. guy wow wow yeah so uh but that of. course is just sort of gossip on a grand. scale right someone's hiding food yeah.

you got to yeah yeah yeah someone's. being greedy someone's and what's. interesting also about Dunbar I'm sure. remember this one from his his book U. when you get down below 125 smaller. groups there's also groups in which uh. there's a certain intimacy you where you. can you can absolutely trust these. people right right right what's that. number. 12. 12 think of it 12 jurors right right 12.

disciples right yeah 11 at a football. football team close to it yeah you know. that's a that's a smaller group uh that. works because everybody knows everybody. else everybody is uh you can rely on. each other you know so yeah and like I. say that's it's hardw yeah it's how we. work well that's one of the things. that's fascinating about things like the. battle at Little Big Horn because the.

Native American groups had figured out. listen we got to get together there's. the only way we're going to stop these. Invaders is if we band together and form. a much larger. group yeah uh now those are the TRS most. importantly they're the Lakota of the. western Sue uh and the northern cheyen. they were all again composed of bands. there was no tribe in the sense that. we're thinking of it all of them broke.

down into into these smaller these. smaller units and they recognized a. kinship uh they spoke the same or common. or highly related languages so forth. they intermarried a lot sort of binding. them together but um about that time as. you say about the time 1876 1870s uh. there was this realization you know. we got a real problem here we got a real. problem here and the best chance the.

best shot we have is for us to uh. overcome these to to to forge a sense of. common identity and a common purpose uh. it's a kind of Rise of what you might. call uh nationalism a kind of a sue shy. uh. nationalism and it's that's new that's. new that wasn't there wasn't there. before so they're evolving right they're. evolving in their understanding they're.

evolving in how they think about it. themselves right it's this world in. constant motion and change and what I. what fascinated me about this uh in this. in this book was uh how complex it was. and how fast it was and how completely. far-reaching it was everything changes. yeah quickly yeah the one of the. fascinating stories about Little Big. Horn was that this band this this.

banding together of all these natives. didn't last they they were very. effective this one battle very quickly. like they said that the battle what did. they say the battle lasted somewhere in. the neighborhood of 20 minutes well sort. of the height of it you know where a. Custer's part M that's probably about. that or maybe a little longer um which. is crazy now the the battle itself of. course a large battle lasted much longer. over over more than a day about two days. uh as he's part of them uh part of the.

command under Reno retreated to this. hill you know and was besieged and held. under siege for uh a day a day and a. half but you're right um and. then you know. they that's a great victory yeah the. problem is you know what's going to. happen right you know what's happen they. knew the retaliation was coming yep yep. big time you got to remember now when.

when did this happen it was. 1876 uh the battle itself was on June. 25th. 1876 like I say they were under siege. there for two or three days um it was. another few days before the first other. group uh of the of the of the army of. the cavalary arrived then they had to. spend a few days uh taking care of the. Wounded doing what they can then they. took the survivors uh to the Missouri.

River to get on a steamboat uh to head. to head down to bismar uh and it was at. that point that the news began to travel. about this unprecedented defeat by. American forces so the battles on June. 25th put all those days. together when do you think the first. news arrived that of this. catastrophe July. 4th July 4th 1876 the 100 100th.

anniversary of the approval of the. Declaration of Independence our 100th. our 100th. birthday news arrives of of this. crushing of custard you know the nation. the military was not going to let that. stand you know so this was part of the. reasons there was this this. extraordinary effort you know to to. destroy these. people so they very quickly broke up. into these constituent bands uh and.

tried to get away as best they could and. less than a year they were they were. defeated and you talk about what. happened after that in your other book. on the NES purse the last Indian War. yeah right yeah that was the next year. uh. 1877 uh the NP was this Extraordinary. People in the Pacific Northwest. uh they were from Idaho uh from Eastern.

Oregon they too composed of these. different bands gathered together in. this uh this one common identity the. nimu which means the real. people U and they were completely at. peace with the whites in fact uh LS and. Clark had been the first uh the first. Americans the first white people that. they had ever seen Lewis and Clark came. over a l l pass uh downed there they. were.

starving uh and the ne uh the npers took. them in um saved them uh gave them. helped them get some U horses uh and. canoes to keep on their way and on the. way back uh Lewis and Clark stayed with. them more than a month and they formed. in the eyes of the NZ Pur they formed. this Alliance. with the Americans and they swore from. this time on we're friends we're allies.

uh you help us when we fight we'll help. you when you fight and that was in 18 uh. six uh they kept that promise from 186. until. 1877 wow as they were their lamb was. being overrun as these. uh uh appalling treaties are being. forced upon them uh they kept their word. uh and then finally in 18 uh 1877 the.

government said okay that's enough you. got to come into this. reservation and the ones who were living. off of it uh had to then within one. monthin a month they had. to pack up everything they had. to leave their Homeland that they had. known for Generations uh they had to. cross the. Snake River at its highest point somehow. get their families you know women.

children kids old folks um across this. River to gather to go into this. reservation end of a way of life. um even though the treaty that required. them to do that was a was a was a was a. fraud uh and on the Eve literally the. day before they were to go on to the. reservation to be for start of the. reservation these young men sort of. snapped and these young men took off and.

killed a bunch of fight folks you know. that they had grudges against um that. then triggered this War uh triggered. this larger outbreak against whites that. then of course brought the Army in uh. and the Army tried to to put this. down but as I researched that book uh. the question that keep kept coming back. to me was why. why did they do. that because at the time of the War uh.

they were completely at peace with the. Americans around them uh they had. adapted. beautifully they were prosperous. Cattlemen they were raising cattle you. know uh they had silver tea sets for. Pete's sake they were they were more. they were more prosperous than the. whites who were who were living in the. in the area they threatened no one they. were living on lands that the whites. didn't want uh why then why force them.

in what's the. reason and the only reason I can think. of was um The Little Big. Horn this year before this. humiliating defeat at the hands of the. uh of the lotas and the cheyen U with. that the government said uh okay that's. it everybody even our best. friends have to give up and they have to. come in into reservations where we will. we will control them yeah they'll.

control them and they'll Force. Christianity on them as well yeah have. you seen uh Taylor Sheridan's uh series. uh 1923 it's a a pre a prequel to. Yellowstone have you ever watched any of. those shows no really good show but one. one of the things that 1923 documents it. stars Harrison Ford and so it's very. interesting but it it documents these. women that are forced from their tribe. to go into these schools MH where their. uh Christianity is forced upon them.

they're beaten and treated horrifically. it's it's very hard to watch because you. know that that is what happened of. course yeah that's the boarding schools. yeah that goes way back before 1923 by. 23 it's sort of it's sort of winding. down um but yeah all sorts of course. scandalous uh. news recently in the past year or two. about the kinds of uh treatment that. came out of those done those schools. here in Canada the same sort of thing is. being revealed in in in Canada about the.

abuses under those under those schools. yeah it's not just Christianity that's. being forced on they are. uh required uh to speak only English you. they're punished if they speak their own. languages yeah uh they for they give up. their their appearance or cut their hair. uh dress in a certain way uh now there's. a wonderful irony in that. show uh I said a moment ago uh most.

people most in public think of uh you. know the Indian as if there's one group. of people right the the. Indian native people's course didn't. think at all like that they identified. with tribal groups they identified with. a band within the tribal groups. uh often at odds with each other you. know they've been fighting each other. like everybody fights body else in. history so their identity was you know. when you say uh what are you they would.

say well I'm a cheyen I'm a kamachi you. know I'm a kinket you know I'm a. whatever I belong to this guy's band um. so the idea of an of the Indian. was completely foreign to them. until boarding. schools and all of a sudden in boarding. schools all the kids all the young. people are taken required to go to these. schools all of these different.

groups they're all living. together they're all forced to surrender. much of their own individual cultures. those dozens of different cultures that. they were U um they'd come from um and. suddenly it begins to Dawn on them uh. they're now all speaking the same. language right they're. all you know we got much more in common. than we have differences among us so.

there's a. way in which U you know the the supposed. purpose of a boarding school was to. destroy. indianness yeah the famous uh phrase. coming from a uh Colonel Pratt who was. the one who founded Carlile was uh uh. kill the Indian to save the man. destroy Indian identity in order to. allow these people to survive in the. modern world wow but what the RO schols.

did was in fact create the Indian they. didn't kill the Indian the Indian didn't. exist before that it created this sense. of common. identity the sense of okay we may be. kamachi we may be shy be Lakota may be. or whatever but we're all we all have. this. common problem that we're facing these. common difficulties. so we need to think in terms of the. Indian to bond to to you know to uh to.

bond together just like on a smaller. scale when these bands decide to uh to. join and unite in order to fight the. military now on this much larger. Continental scale Indians from all over. native peoples from all over uh the. nation now begin to see that they are. related related in their circumstances. not babon so the Indian was created not. killed in the Waring schools that's. fascinating when they initially tried to.

move the natives to. reservations how did they were they. doing it because where the natives were. there was valuable resources were they. doing it because geographically they. could control them better in these. regions like what was the motivation. initially it was all of that yeah. certainly they were. uh especially when they're in particular. places that uh are very rich in. resources great examples of course were.

mining rushes um these people who are. again hunter gatherers uh living in. someplace this remote Mountain area in. California or Arizona or wherever uh. suddenly you know they're overrun by. these people coming in overrun because. they are uh they are living on some of. the richest places uh in the nation uh. so so you got to get rid of them right. uh uh but there's also the reasons this. is a way to control them uh and to in.

the eyes of the government to transform. them right put them on these. reservations and you can turn them into. the kind of people that you want them to. be yeah make them. American and that's what so it was both. of those things both of those things. together which is historic like when we. look back at it now it's like one of the. most horrific aspects of it that we just. start to eliminate them and just. integrate them into our culture right. that was always the uh the formal.

government goal it wasn't simply give. them a place to live the way they live. it was no no virtually no one was saying. that jez even the people who were were. called part of a formal term Friends of. the Indians they were organ organization. called the friends of the Indians and. they were uh honestly in the their own. Hearts they thought that they were doing. what was necessary for the best for. these. people but this was uh they said the.

only way we can do that only way that. these people can be saved is to. transform them into people like us to. make them into our uh to integrate them. into our our culture U and that uh that. depended on really basic through three. things uh uh it was uh they had to. become Farmers because you know from the. beginning in this country you know.

that's sort of the ideal life that's how. you that's how you begin your your. integration into the American economy. Farm you know the Jeffersonian Vision. you know of the ideal farmer um they got. to be. Christian we have to have this common uh. common religion um and education we've. got to take their young people and we've. got to put put them in schools where. they will be not only learn the basics. of the three Rs and so forth but they'll. be culturally educated yeah they will be.

culturally transformed so these boarding. schools U Were Meant to transform these. people into Americans let's say you know. so yeah uh so we you often hear the term. genocide thrown around uh and there are. times in American history when that was. absolutely true when there was an effort. to Simply eradicate Indian peoples uh. but the whole reservation system was not.

meant for. that sometimes it turned out that way. but the purpose of it was this control. and transformation that's what was. supposed to happen and then when that. happened once that was done then they. the reservations would be done away with. everybody would uh uh live in harmony. you wow it didn't happen of course but. of course it had to be so confusing to. them what the resources were that the.

white man wanted to because they're like. why do you want gold like you can't eat. it you can't use it as a weapon yeah so. strange it is in a lot of ways it is uh. you know gold as you said it's it's. virtually useless it's it's very soft. right so you can't make it into a what a. strange thing to be the most valuable. of all Commodities it's really. shiny how bizarre that so many parts of.

the world had agreed upon that that's. right it just cross culturally across. hundreds of years the uh Egyptians you. know yeah Egyptians call Gold the Breath. of God you know the Aztec uh consider it. a god scat this was the excrement of the. Gods you know that came so strange so. strange yeah now it's not true I think. that uh once some really interesting. Works going be going on right now by um. historian named Benjamin. badley uh who is studying in the.

California uh in in the Gold Rush there. were Indians who said. oh they're going to give me a bunch of. stuff for this stuff of and so they went. they went to work and there were there. were hundreds of Indians who were in The. Gold Fields before the uh 49ers came. really yeah that was another interesting. thing about your discussion with Steve. Rell that we think of the 49ers as the. miners but there was 48ers that's right. and they were from a variety of. different countries that's right that's. right.

Tasmania Australia Australia yeah wild. all parts of Asia yeah yeah remember the. the uh goal was discovered uh in you. know the American River on January 24th. 1848 so you know three weeks into. 1848 uh the word then began to leak out. made it to San Francisco uh. and slowly grg this is now 1848 takes a. long time for news to get from. California to to the east how did it.

primarily get there was it well there. was you know there was traffic back and. forth but it's very slow Overland Trails. over over so forth months and months. months and months and when it came to. the east a lot of people said oh come on. yeah one more rumor about the riches in. the west and so forth so it wasn't until. December 4th 1848. when the President James pul in his. annual message to Congress said yep it's.

true it's true they found gold out there. and there's a lot of it a lot a lot of. it and uh people are making thousands of. dollars uh tens of thousands of dollars. out there but the point here is that uh. from January. 1848 when Go's. discovered to the end of. 1848 uh. nobody in the East really either knew. about this there were rumors or or. believed it so that's why we call the.

gold rushers. 49ers because it's the next year that. they they go out there in these. extraordinary numbers but the question. then is what what was happening out. there at the time. right what was happening is we had the. 48ers people from Oregon uh people from. Australia people from Tasmania uh people. from uh the first Chinese ever coming. over uh especially people from the South. uh sonorans people coming from Mexico uh.

peruvians. Chileans so when the 49ers get out there. you the Americans get out there uh and. they look around they say who are these. people digging our gold right so so it's. what I what I call in the book the. second conquest of California the first. one of course in the in the war with. Mexico but then uh suddenly you know. this is the richest place on Earth quite.

literally at that time and it's being uh. being the goal there is being mined by. these people that we considered not-. Americans right so we got to get rid of. them Indians right uh the rest of them. there's this What's called the Chile war. in which Chileans are are uh driven out. of the U so these people are are either. driven out completely or they're. confined to the edges uhu while while. the 49ers while the 49ers take including.

of course the Indians this is what. triggered uh the greater one of the few. cases in with this is clearly genocide. uh in which there was a concerted formal. effort uh to eradicate Indian peoples. who are on these gold. Fields you know the California. legislature uh funded Bond issues to pay. for militias to go kill. Indians wow Congress.

reimbursed California the legislature to. pay for those uh to pay for those. Expeditions um it was it was what Ben. madley who wrote the book on this it. calls a killing. machine one of the few times in American. history when we just say absolutely yes. this was attempted this was attempted. genocide and it was specifically because. of the commodity of gold sure of course. wow of course yeah you got remember this.

was uh this was the by far the. richest gold Discovery in human history. up until up until that. time Mor go moreo was Min in. California in one year. 1852 that had been mined across the. world world in the entire 18th. century one one year you know wow.

there's a there's a story uh from the. fellow who was ahead of the San. Francisco mint it was established in the. mid1 1850s uh he said that at one time. they were processing so much gold in. that. mint uh that the the furnaces couldn't. handle it and they. discovered to their horror that gold. dust was being blown out of the Smoke. Stacks wow and settling uh and settling.

on the area around there so they had to. send out people you for like a quarter. mile around the mint to sweep up the. gold on. the and sift through it on the roofs wow. gilded rooftops you know so so this is a. lot of lot of gold that's. insane. and what. result of that was the California of. course gets this instant. population it never goes through a.

territorial period it just goes straight. to statehood because there's so many. people right well historically uh if the. Indians were getting much of a. protection it it came from the federal. government well the federal government. has it's not a territory you know so. it's entir it's the state government. that's in charge. and the state government. uh State government's attitude was get. rid of them wow get rid of them and they.

population dropped from um estimated. 150,000 uh in. 1848 uh to uh 1900 uh. 16,000 wow 100 so about 90 about 90%. yeah wow yeah it was one of the uh. you you can picture it uh this way uh I.

think we mentioned to most most folks. you know U where were the Great Indian. Wars where are the great Indian defeats. they think typically of the Great Plains. Little Big Horn you know Montana uh the. dtas in the. southwest New Mexico Arizona that's. where the movies all are yeah those are. the ones that we're most aware of uh. publicly if the population in California. native population in California dropped.

as much as we think it. did that would be as if. every native person. in Montana North and South Dakota. Wyoming uh Colorado Nebraska Kansas. Texas uh New Mexico Arizona uh vanished. wow as if they they were all gone all. dead wow and that was happening in this.

one one state one state because of one. commodity yeah yeah wow it was. absolute. Nightmare and yet who knows about it you. know very few people who's aware of that. yeah yeah that's not really discuss that. much there's a fantastic book about. Texas and about the commanches called. Empire of the summer Moon sure uh have. you read it yeah incredible book but it.

uh it details the difficulty that they. had in trying to establish colonies both. in uh New Mexico and in Texas because of. the Comanche and sure that is an an. absolutely. amazing documentation of what took place. in this area yeah yeah yeah. uh part of that story uh has to do with. what you what we were talking about. earlier and that is horses yes right.

this was one of the great revolutions I. call it the other American. Revolution and in the book I call the. grass. Revolution because remember you know. horses now had of course started. here went to Asia uh became extinct here. and the Europeans brought them back. cornado was the first to uh to bring. them into uh where they had been born. onto the South Plains what year was this.

Coronado 1540s in the 1540s um and then. the Spanish came uh for good uh at the. end of the 1500s uh establishing Santa. Fe along along the along the r Grand. River they brought horses. um and. then wasn't until around. 1680 uh with the the this rebellion of. uh Pueblo Indians in the Santa in the. Santa Fe area and uh that drove the.

Spanish out for 12 years that these. horses began to. spread across the West now they had have. begun to spread before and uh we're. coming to understand now that there were. probably more of them out there than we. realized earlier than we realized but. the explosive growth of horses out of. New Mexico. is comes after 1680 uh. 1780 100 years later uh Indian peoples.

across the plains uh in the southwest. and in the Rocky Mountains have all. developed adapted the horse adopted and. adapted to that horse into what we call. horse cultures that is these ways of. life that depend upon the horse without. the horse you can't do which which one. want to do it's like we have a car. culture. right and this in this gave. them among other things uh great.

military power economic. power uh but also also uh military power. and the key to that Joe was uh the fact. that. horses are herbivores right and they're. adapted to this the second largest. grassland on. Earth the Great. Plains and when you put a human on a. horse then um then it becomes something.

else it becomes what I call a horse man. it is horse hyphen man right not a. Horseman it becomes it's it's like you. take these two animals and you fuse them. into one thing right and this animal. like a centaur right and this animal has. uh the power uh and the speed and the. grace and the beauty of A running.

horse and it has the brain of a human. being it has the imagination uh and the. uh Innovation. right and the arrogance of a human being. so that's a new. animal it's bad news for the Bison. really bad news for the Bison because. the first time you have a grass eating. Predator you have a killer you have a. killer uh that can draw upon the same.

energy and the grasses that the Bison. do and it's ultimately fatal for them. right but at the same time it becomes. this these horse cultures become. extraordinary you know military. machines and that's what the Comanches. were that's what the that the book is. about U and that's that was this other. American Revolution the same time that. our revolution in the East is going on.

there is this Revolution and and life. and. Power in the middle of what's today the. United States for the rise of these. native Empires yeah the commanches and. the lakotas and others these become the. sort of superpowers they dominate they. dominate the middle of America right and. they just kick the babers out of the. Spanish yeah and of others it's not. until the Americans show up uh with. their. numbers overwhelming numbers you know.

and with their new technologies U the. pistol the pistol and the rifles you. know and railroads and the others that. they're able to uh find it that that. these that these Empires are are broken. and of course Little Big Horn that's. that's the end of that particular cycle. of it you know when they're lakotas. who they were the. superpower of you know the middle of. America they and the commanches were.

these uh formed in effect one great. Empire stretched from Southern Canada. all the way into Mexico a native Empire. right that's what we broke when we came. in with a Little Big Horn 1876 against. the kames what that book writes about. 1874 um. it was also the last time that a horse. culture arose on Earth the first were.

about 5,000 years ago in. Ukraine and then of course that way of. life spreads spreads across uh Central. Asia the Mongols you know it spreads. into northern China it spreads down into. U into into the mid East it leads to you. know the great horseback empires of the. Arabs in northern Europe and then into. Europe uh to the uh you know the great. Iberian powers like Spain all of these.

are horse military horse cultures it's a. story that goes 5,000 years. back and it it. ends it ends where the story began 50. million years. ago with the beginning with the first. horses right it ends at the same place. wow but we see. when you look at the Little Big Horn. when you look at the defeat of the. commanches when you look at defeat of. those other Indian tribes what you're. what you're seeing um is the end of a.

5,000-year epic in world. history an epic that began at the same. place it's incredible so the the the. horse Empire began in. Ukraine the first time that we know we. think now the first time that people. domesticated horses was in Ukraine. yeah that's so fascinating yeah how did. they figure it out and how did the. Comanche figure out how to do it so much. better than the other.

tribes that's a great question uh there. have been some very good books written. recently on The KES the uh the best in. my opinion is by uh it's called the. Kaman Empire that follows a story you. know of the rise of Kaman power it's by. good friend of mine a pekka his name is. a pekka hamayan and. he a native. Finn. uh. who has written the great the Great Book.

on this I don't know they just well. first place is I think Dan Flores would. uh would stress this they were in. absolutely the right. place Southern Plains Dan is a book. called horizontal yellow which is the. Kami word for for this area this is. where horses evolved this is where where. they were born this is where uh that. they were best adapted uh and the comman. that was the kamanche that was karia.

that was that was a Ki so they're in. just the right place for this. proliferation of. horses and they took advantage of it. something about them was able to. uh to Fashion you know to to take. advantage of this uh to a degree that. that few others. uh that few others did uh they were very. very good at it and what Pekka's book. does also is show that this was. genuinely an Empire they had their own.

foreign. policy they had their own economic. system they had this intricate trade. systems they uh they would sort of. Outsource Outsource the growing of of uh. of horses they would when the Americans. came you know they would wait until the. Americans were uh uh. developing horse herds as well as cattle. and other things let them do the work. let them use their grass you know to.

develop these horse herds and then we. steal. them so they they're Outsourcing right. wow uh they develop these trade networks. of uh trading horses up to the Northern. Plains where their Winters are so severe. uh that they they had terrible losses. every year so they would sell horses. trade horses up to the north this is a. very sophisticated Arrangement uh but. they were the masters of it uh and it it. served them well uh until the Americans.

show up uh in. numbers they figured out how to G. stallions they figured out how to raise. them and the amount of status and wealth. that you had was dependent upon the. amount of horses that you had sure yeah. yeah which is very. different from what you had before that. was quite common among other groups. these horse cultures they you know. horses became sort of the coin of the. realm as you said who you were it was. like big wigs right yes bigger the wig.

you have the bigger that's more horses. you have U that's the measure of uh. that's a measure of of your wealth of. your status of your prestige yeah this. area that we're in right now was. populated by the commanche and these. these arrowheads this is one of them is. they're everywhere here I mean they're. everywhere here there's a friend of mine. who has a ranch out here and he finds. hundreds if not thousands of them a year.

yeah and he actively sifts through them. and he puts them up on his website on. his Instagram page and he sent me one of. them and this is just one of who knows. how many if not hundreds of thousands of. these have been found in this area where. these people lived for a long time. surviving off the buffalo and Wild game. and primarily eating only meat which. gave them a big advantage over the.

Americans who came here who needed. carbohydrates and who they couldn't go a. day or two without eating without being. completely diminished whereas they were. just because their body had adapted to. eating meat they were essentially in. ketosis and they were eating meat and it. it didn't bother them to go a day. without food mhh they had all these. advantages yep beautifully adapted uh. partly by their. own planning uh partly just good chance. yeah yeah and also their strategies.

their ability you know we think of. Native Americans we think of archers as. having a quiver on their back and they. pull an arrow from the quiver and put it. in but They Carried multiple arrows in. each finger so in the four fingers of. the hand they would have four arrows. sitting in their hands ready to go and. they will they have the ability to suck. ccle them through the bow very quickly. whereas the Europeans had a musket and. they had to put the ball in there and. the gunpowder and tap it down and the.

whole thing took like 30 seconds to get. one shot off under extreme pressure of. these Native Americans who are extremely. Adept on Horseback and who actually. would ride sideways so they would hide. behind the body of the horse right which. is incredible now they uh By the time. those the real Hammer came down uh the. the whites had repeating Rivals and they. had and they had pistols but still but. still uh in in terms of fighting on. those terms uh a commanche on Horseback.

was far more effective those they were. called short bows uh and they were very. powerful we think of long bows or. crossbows as ones with a great power but. these things were U you know they could. uh hunting bison they could shoot an. arrow one of these short bow arrows. under these through these short post and. it would go through a. bison all the way through this through. this animal so and they're incredibly.

accurate yeah and very accurate horack. riding horseback they trained to shoot. off of horseback like the Mongols. famously would release their Arrow while. the horse was in the air cuz it had the. less disturbance so they they had this. thing that they would do where they. would release the arrow as the horse was. in the air and they were insanely. accurate doing it that way apparently. not very accurate doing it just standing. still like that was alien to them like. why would you shoot on the ground like.

that that's so. stupid get on a horse dummy yeah yeah. well what was documented in Empire of. the summer moon was the the use of the. revolver and that um the military didn't. really have a desire to acquire the. revolver but the Texas Rangers did and. the reason why they did is they would. recognize that there's there's a need to. have multiple bullets in some sort of a. cylinder that you could replace and so. when they started doing that that's when. they started to gain ground over the.

kamanche and then of course the Henry. rifle the repeating rifle all these. different things that happened after. that yeah yeah now revolvers are not. terribly accurate but they could they. could fire they could fire bullets as. fast as a command she could fire arrow. so that's an advantage yeah yeah and. Jack Hayes who's the original Texas. Ranger there's a photo of him out there. uh in our lobby as well as the photo of. uh cynthian Parker I saw those inana. Parker yeah just such an amazing uh.

aspect of the history of this area I. mean to this in this region when you. drive around you'll see like Quan Parker. Lane you'll see like all these commane. names that uh have been put on streets. yeah well uh Cynthia was taken not far. from here right 11 years old yeah yeah. it's a crazy story right it's an amazing. story yeah yeah um this whole place. transformed so rapidly and it's just it. it's so it's interesting that the sort.

of. independent philosophy of Texans. probably had a lot to do with how. difficult it was to take over this. place yeah I think you. can you can push that a little too far. but there's erly something to that it be. awfully awfully tough people how could. you push it too far and what do you mean. by that. well I think. that so many of the people in in Texas.

and elsewhere you know they were just. sort of ordinary. folks and you wouldn't really they. really didn't have to go through the. kind of transformation you know kind of. adaptive transformation they would. produce those kinds of abilities but the. ones on The Cutting Edge you know the. ones out there you know that was true of. them yeah tough guys Charlie Goodnight. you know that you know that name yes. Charles Goodnight yeah good example of. that yeah it's a tough guy his partner U.

Oliver loving uh was killed by kagis out. in out in West Texas you know and he had. to he had to go through. some serious stuff uh good night did and. others and others at that time uh to uh. to make it did the commanches have a. reservation. not as such uh there were the very end. of this right before it all fell apart. uh they were on a sort of government.

land have been set aside far north Texas. uh uh up at the border of border of. Oklahoma State on that but didn't last. the the uh animosity uh the the. unalloyed. hatred Mutual hatred between kames and. Texas uh it's hard to exaggerate it uh. it was just you it was. like Palestinians and Israelis you know.

Hamas and and Israelis it just you could. not reconcile. it and so the government you know was. trying to uh give these folks a chance. to become farmers and the rest of it so. they put him on this piece of land but. the Texans kept kept at him kept at him. kept at him uh and finally they Ascent. enough of that here going back to the. Panhandle so besides that no there U.

Texas uh has only a couple of. reservations uh by the end of the by the. end of the story one in East Texas. uh the reason is of course that this. that this uh hostilities these. hostilities between Texans and Indians. is so extreme. that they're either all Indians they're. either all killed or driven out you know. which is so extraordinary when you think. about the the expanse of their empire.

yeah yep yeah it's just sort of a. purging of them you know ethnic. cleansing when you set out to write a. book this vast I mean this is an. enormous book it seems like there's so. much information that it's got to be a. daunting task to try to figure out how. to pull it all together yeah that. was by far uh the biggest. problem I think I was very naive when I.

started. started look back and you're going to do. what because you. know uh you know as as I've already said. a couple of times it's this this 30-year. period when so much. happens all over the place so fast in so. many ways so many changes all of them. all of them bouncing off each other all. of them influencing each other it's just. this. bewildering uh series of of of things.

you know of. events the hardest part. um hardest part of any book you know one. of my friends told me this the hardest. thing about writing a book is making it. a. book you know making it one thing yeah. as opposed to just a whole series of. note cards uh put together but that was. uh it went beyond hard for this had to. come up with some way to fit it together. with a. narrative an arc over time uh with.

themes to try to hold it together uh I. did my best to do that but that was by. far the hardest part of. it yeah did you do this independently. did you have a contract to do a book oh. it's part of a series the history of the. West series University of Nebraska uh. series um and we're about finished with. it now um but it beyond that it was. independent you know it was uh it would. have to be it would have to be otherwise. the pressure on you to get this done the.

deadlines they like what are you doing. Elliot what kind of book is this well. I've told them before you it's done when. it's done right I'm not goingon to well. it's just it must be so hard to put. together something that if we put it. into perspective it today imagine that. kind of change happening from. 1993 to 202. yeah put that in your head Y and imagine. the world changes the world is is made. over it's made over yeah and if I the.

theme that I came up with it here the. closest thing I had to to tie together. was. um something really big happens in this. country uh in the second half of the. 19th. century and we all recognize that any. any any American historian will uh will. agree with that and what happens is the. uh Narrative of this country the basic. story of the United States uh shifts.

onto a new track uh you we're changing. all the time of course but but sometimes. things really change and this was one of. them when this American story moves in a. new. direction that would carry it. into what we think of as modern America. Amica carry it into the America where we. know the 20th and the 21st. centuries if you go back if you're able.

to get a time machine you don't twirl a. dial go back to say. 1850 before that you're in another world. yeah uh it's one's very difficult for us. to uh to identify with 1900 you know. we're. industrialized right uh we're tied to. the world in new ways uh we. technologically far more sophisticated. uh we're people much more of a polyglot. Nation the whole idea of citizenship of.

who is an American U all that has. changed um and it happens during that. period. Well if you all Americans All American. historians agree with that if you to ask. them how do you explain that what. accounts for this shift um. the most common answer to that by far up. until now has been the Civil. War it was a civil war you know the. establishes the pracy of the federal.

government it's a civil war that expands. citizenship through emancipation it's a. civil war that helps is a go to us to. industrialize to turn into this modern. economic uh superpower uh it's all. true. undeniable what I argue in this book is. that expansion mention in the. 1840s the discovery of gold which comes. exactly at the same point U uh and what. happens in the west during these 30.

years from 1850 to 1880 uh those things. are as important as the Civil War in. helping us understand how we became. modern you in the making of the making. of modern America expansion those 30. years of incredible changes um were as. important as the Civil War in in turning. us into a modern industrial power uh in. expanding citizenship in this case not.

just freed people but but uh Indians you. know Hispanics Chinese U. and the strength of the power of the. federal government which takes on all. kinds of new responsibilities U uh. because of the West you know from. national parks to the Department of. interior to um outward looking into the. world it's because of this happening. that uh we what I call the orientation. the reorientation of America we turned.

into the Pacific we become a Pacific. facing Nation as well as an Atlantic fac. Nation we began to move into what we. know today uh as a people who are. looking continuously you know across the. Pacific to to China to the other to the. other nations over there all of those. things that we. associate with being modern have as much. to do with expansion as they do with the. Civil. War so so the basic idea is you cannot. possibly understand America as the.

America that we that we know from the. 20th and 21st centuries without looking. at this story without taking into. account what follows from the. acquisition of 1,200,000 square miles. over three years uh and what happened. following that but just without books. like this I think people have sort of. this abstract notion of what took place.

here they know horrible things happened. they know the Native American population. was wiped out they know they were forced. into reservations but I don't think it's. being taught enough to most Americans. the actual history of this land and how. extraordinary this change was yeah. well well that's a grave responsibility. that you had to put down this one. massive book yeah well of course I could. not could not agree more uh we can't.

know who we are as Americans unless you. take this into account and unless you. get beyond the sort of the Mythic uh. romanticized view that we have of that. yeah and recognize it as this is the. this is the birth of modern. America yeah just as it's going on east. and west of course but the point point. of the title is it's a it's a. continental story yes it's a it's a. story that has to be told and understood. uh from coast to coast there's also a.

very bizarre aspect of our understanding. of the West that has to do with the. narratives that are shaped in film sure. I mean we have this whole genre of film. in America called westerns which is. really interesting right because we have. spaghetti westers that were actually. made in Italy with t Eastwood and you. know all these films that detail these. heroic Americans who fight off the.

Indians and you know our narrative is. the people that are on the wagon train. they're just trying to have a good life. and they're getting attacked by the. Indians we have to fight off the Indians. we have this. very sort of myopic view it's weird. right it is weird yeah our view of what. happened in terms of what what's been. depicted in film and in books it's it's. very simplistic no kidding yeah.

right it is and it's a great question. about why you know why that is uh yeah. for 40 plus years I taught a course. called the west of the imagination uh. which wrestles with exactly that. question what is it about Western. history that is. so seem to what is it sort of compels us. you know to to take this story of the. West and to turn it into this uh.

simplistic romanticized um story story. uh it's a great question it's a. revisionist history question right well. it a lot way and and. uh I think they're various they're. various uh ways to approach it the most. basic way is simply in awake sort of to. restate the question by saying that uh. there is something about the west and. this goes way back to European history. even before Columbus you know there's.

something about the direction. West that invites us to imagine new. worlds yeah right people living in. Europe you know the the One Direction in. which they knew absolutely nothing was. West you look into the Atlantic and so. they were able to imagine all of these. all of these wonderful myths you know. there's something about that there's. something that that sort of carries. through on that um but in particular in. this. country.

uh people need the West need the West to. be something you it's their. need that that produces the story it's. not what's happening out there yeah we. need to make the West into what we need. we need the West to be what we require. in this particular. time so for instance. uh after the Civil. War this country is trying to this.

country is trying to. uh remake itself into one nation we're. trying to you know to heal these wounds. to stitch the nation back together uh we. need stories about what we have in. common whether you live in South. Carolina or what you live in. Pennsylvania right what do we have in. common well one thing we have in common. is we're we're Conquering the West right. we're doing this together right all.

Americans you know we're it's a it's a. heroic very positive uh American view U. story in that. story among other things we've got. to we've got to earn our way. into this country that means we got to. suffer got got okay um so all of these. Tales of of you know suffering pioneers.

and so forth but also of course. Indians uh the threat of Indians you. know overcoming the threat of Indians. that's that's a heroic American story. right. uh in other words sort of we got to. bleed our way into full possession full. possession of the West. don't bother me with the with with. complications like this is Indian's. country right this is their country you. know don't bother me with the fact that. they're just trying to defend their land.

right they're not trying to kill people. to kill people right right right that. doesn't matter you know we need we need. this to be a very viral story to reflect. the the image of this of this uh this. American nation is really coming into. its gnome you this the heroic rugged. individualist who makes his way across. the country that's right not wholesale. genocide for resources that's right so. it becomes a very u a very male story.

yes all of these stories of uh oh you. know of. uh railroad you know these railroaders. trying to protect themselves against the. Indians of a very the idea of of a. violent West you know uh of these. shootout. uh shootouts every day um that reflects. a kind of virility uh to the uh to the. whole story so in other words U I think.

if I think of it as a metaphor like this. a western movie right any movie you sit. there in the theater and you're watching. this thing up on the screen and you're. tricking yourself to thinking it's on. the screen but it's not of course it's. behind you yeah it's the projector so. there's a way in which we turn the West. into this thing that that that in fact. is Outsiders are projecting onto it wow.

what they want it to be yeah that's what. western are do you think it's a part of. a guilt of a real understanding of what. really took place I don't know I don't. know people because it's so romanticized. it seems like there should have been one. genocidal film made about the American. West the knowledge was. there yeah you said a moment ago. everybody if you stop folks on the. street everybody agrees Indians were. poorly treated yes right but hey you.

know. it's eggs broken for a national omelet. right right and it's also who wasn't me. I wasn't there that's right you know I'm. child of immigrants came here in the 20s. I have no responsibility and you are. well and you are you know it's not a. matter of guilt so much is it a matter. of. recognizing this is our story the actual. events yeah yeah yeah nobody's going to. you know pressure to feel guilty about. it and we're never going to learn unless. we actually know what happened sure I.

mean there's no it's too easy to the. good term is whitewash because it really. is whitewashing right this in this case. literally literally whitewashing yeah. it's too easy to whitewash the actual. events took place yeah. yeah and it could be you know an awfully. ugly story uh. but it's. also I think we can also make the. mistake of painting it in these these. sort of starkly tragic occasional. genocidal genocidal terms U there is.

absolutely. something to the point of view that. these are just ordinary people going out. there to try to make Better Lives yeah. right I've a my early passion was what. we call social history which is the uh. history of everyday life and so I was. fascinated by uh these people who went. out there uh took off solar farm or.

whatever picked up and went out to to. Oregon or someplace why were they doing. that you know and and what was it like. what was it like for them uh and I. looked at I read. hundreds of letters and Diaries and. journals and Memoirs of this and I have. yet to find one ex to read one example. of somebody saying well tell you what. you know it's going to be H it's going. to be tough out there but we we got to.

go out there and get rid of the. Indians. right they had these images of who the. who the Indians were and what sort of a. danger they have but they were not there. to dispossess the Indians they out there. to get a better farm right out there to. uh make make a better life that's the. American American. story but in doing that I said earlier. in doing that they took part in this. effort this took part in this complete.

transformation of this world that. destroyed the Indian life you know they. made it impossible for Indians to uh uh. to live where they had when you're. writing something like this what it must. be an overwhelming responsibility to. accurately relay this message to. people. sure yeah I mean that's what historians. do that's probably why it took 20 years. right right looked I looked at a lot of.

stuff right yeah and it took me a long. time to to research it write it put. together and i' also try to make it as. much as I can a human story uh I try to. give it what I say in there give it. story with a A somebodiness you know a a. sense of what it was like for. individuals uh for individuals out there. and that means you make it very. complicated you know there are no simple. moral messages as much as we' liked like. for them to be uh it's not that's part.

of the that's part of the accuracy of it. right I also try to respect uh you know. you know as as we've talked about. Americans have this romanticized. view out there in particular things like. uh Cowboys. cattle drives right uh. homesteaders well the fact is those are. the stories that Fascinate us and I try.

to honor that Fascination those were. great stories you know the story these. Overland Trails you know these wagon. trains these families picking up you. know walking 1500 miles out there uh. those are great. stories uh the story. The lives of cowboys cattle drives and. all the rest of that uh those Fascinate. us for good reason because they're. fascinating right what I try to do is to.

respect that Fascination at the same. time of trying to tell those stories uh. as fully as I can. uh with as much Nuance as I can and to. bring in new. understandings to point out for example. in ranching uh. I mean who knew uh that that the great. ranching Empires the Great Planes were. run mostly by.

corporations really yeah there were. hundreds of corporate. ranches out there wow it was stock being. sold in in New York and Boston and and. Edinburgh it big there was a very tight. connection between Edinburgh investors. and and uh ranches ranches out the great. PL would they ship the livestock back no. no the livestock was uh you know grow. was raised in the PLS uh and then it was.

typically fattened up in a place like. Iowa and then slaughtered in um uh in. the Chicago Kansas City place like that. now over time uh by the end of the. century close the end of C they. developed a a. refrigerator Refrigeration so they were. able to send slaughtered beef back but. they wouldn't send the animal wouldn't. send the animals themselves but the. point is it was. ranching for all of our images of. Lonesome Cowboys out there cattle driv.

uh uh ranching was a was a was an. international corporatized business one. more way in which we see the West as. modernizing America yeah it was as much. a corporatized uh Enterprise as Iron and. Steel or petroleum uh in the East modern. business which is bizarre to imagine. what it was like before. ranching cuz well that probably led rise.

to the market hunting right because. where else are you going to get your. meat from that was before uh Mar Market. hunting was before ranching before. ranching right but it's you're right. it's the same thing because like before. ranching where did they get their meat. like if people came over here and Mass. from Europe what were they eating well. they were they were eating a lot of they. were eating a lot of beef a lot of pigs. there eat a lot of bear too which is.

Wild Well early on earlier settlement. but there was uh you know Americans are. are traditional carnivores right they're. also of course eating a lot of wild game. as well like like bear um but that. beef and that pork those are raised on. farms that is individuals you would you. would raise your own cattle cow to to. feed your own family that's right and. you Slaughter it at that particular time. of the year to do it what happens after.

the it starts in California actually the. first time you see modern ranching. develop is before the Civil War at in. California to feed the gold miners ah. but then it becomes a national. phenomenon after the Civil War when uh. it begin to. raise cattle on a mass scale on public. land out of the Great Plains now you. have a modern transportation system. railroads you know make their way out on.

the. planes so you can take cattle in Texas. Southern Texas you can drive them North. on public domain that's the grass is. free you know the fuel for the whole. thing is is is government coming out of. the government free um you load them up. on on uh cattle cars and abalene or. Dodge City um shipping to the east to uh. to fatten them up uh and then to.

slaughter in other words it's a it's. becomes a nationalized business and then. international business and it becomes. funded in the same the way that other. New National businesses are corporations. M it's all coordinated by the revolution. of uh in communication through the. telegraph right you using these uh these. new revolutionary Technologies like the.

like the Telegraph and the railroad um. and new revolutionary economic systems. like that of corporate America you know. uh sort of these concentrations of. capital um to create this. new National international business it's. all part of the the nation. story but it's one it's a national story. in in the west that we've turned into. this kind of exotic romantic story miss. the fact that it's really critical to.

what's going on across the country but. it's such a fascinating transformation. and there so many moving pieces yeah and. so little understanding by the general. public of all these factors that are. play yep yep well that's why you're so. important. Elliot I appreciate you very much for. coming on here and talking about this in. your book um this book is not available. right now as an audio book do you have. plans do they have plans to release it I. think they uh last I heard they did.

given the length of it I have a large. stack of packages of lenes I'm going to. send to whoever has to read. this try to help him out yeah well I. know the last uh last Indian war is. available it's available and I'm. listening to that right now and so this. uh this book right now is only available. you got to read folks Continental. Reckoning the American West and the age. of expansion Elliot West thank you very. much sir really really appreciate you. being here awesome awesome conversation. a lot of fun lot of fun thank you very.

much you're all right bye everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. bye.