Joe Rogan Experience #2039 - Michael Easter

[Music]. by night. we're up hello Michael good to see you. buddy yeah likewise last time I saw you. we were in uh elk camp in Utah we were. indeed in Elk Camp it was a good time. yes so. um I was just pointing out to you about. these discoveries they've found at uh. the Boneyard in Alaska and uh my friend.

John Reeves who's been on the podcast. before Jamie I'm going to send this to. you. um you got it ready so. the most recent thing they've found is. evidence that looks like saw marks. in on these bones it looks like they saw. these bones to get the marrow out now a. lot of these bones that they've dated. are 10 000 plus years old. and the thing is the saw was really. supposedly invented somewhere around 7. 000 years ago.

I feel like we often. um. we often think that early humans weren't. as advanced as they actually were yeah. and every time we make a new discovery. it just pushes it back it pushes it back. and you learn that people were way more. interesting had a lot more tools had a. lot more skills than I think we think. yeah this is really interesting I mean. if they do date this you know some of. the stuff they've did is like 30 000. plus years old that they've found out. here the Boneyard is an amazing place I.

think it's the Boneyard Alaska is uh the. Instagram page do you know where on the. map it is I do not know okay do you know. Jeremy I just sort of remember it's in. the middle of Alaska okay. um but this is amazing I mean these are. some he's also found some bones from. some animals that supposedly didn't even. live there. cats ancient cats the craziest thing is. it's a very small area he's he's. Excavating somewhere in the neighborhood.

of like six and a half acres and this is. another place it's like somewhere. similar in size yeah and they're finding. massive amounts of bones in these areas. like crazy Woolly Mammoth tusks and all. this crazy stuff but this is really. interesting because that seems to be. really clear evidence of tools that were. used to saw a bone. another one they found like look at this. and the clut the cut is clean so clean. so it really does look like a saw that.

they sawed to get to the marrow. which is uh wild stuff I don't I don't. know if anyone has ever found anything. like this before. um but it's pretty extraordinary changes. how we think about how advanced we were. I mean who knows I mean maybe they could. find out that uh the saw marks are. actually only a thousand years old and. someone found these bones and tried to. saw them a thousand years I mean I don't. know but humans are amazing because. we're such great explorers that's.

something that I think makes us so. unique among animals yeah right so homo. sapiens comes out and we take over the. world in a very short amount of time. yeah right Neanderthals live 200 000. years they basically made it into Europe. we get uh Homo sapiens all of a sudden. they move into the Americas we put. freaking boats in the water and go to. Australia. we take submarines down to the bottom of. the ocean we shoot off Rockets into. outer space we are a species that never.

stops exploring we want to know what is. that yeah it's over there I want to find. out massive curiosity massive curiosity. and it's it's shaped us so much so. um. my book scarcity brain which is coming. out soon it has a whole chapter on this. and why exploration is so important to. humans as a species but also how it's. changed so if you think about how people. explore today we still explore in a. sense but it's mediated through the.

internet right so it's like we have this. urge to find information that can. enhance our life yeah in the past you. had to go there you had to go talk to. someone you had to go up Around the. Riverbend you had to go okay where is. this greener grass I'm gonna go find it. on foot and it's going to be there's. going to be some amount of effort. now when we have this sort of. information itch we scratch it through a. screen which in on one hand that's great. because we can get information quickly. on the other hand it's so easy to access.

and there's so little uh effort we have. to do I think sometimes we get. overwhelmed by it and it's a very. different form of information we can get. today yeah it's also. it's leading us into this seemingly. inevitable path of this conversion of. humans and technology that seems to be. happening without whether we like it or. not that really doesn't seem to Jive. well with our biology. yeah it's it's hard to tell what is true.

and false today. and I think there is less of a. well now that we have screens you don't. have to go talk to someone in person. right if you want to learn something. even just 20 years ago I was like okay. I'm gonna go to the library. I gotta go uh find out where this book. is I got to use Dewey Decimal System I. got to walk the stacks I'm going to find. it I'm going to put in this time and. effort and I'm going to learn something. if I want to learn something about a. human I'm going to go talk to them right.

I'm gonna go face to face like hey what. do you think and I think now everything. has become so easy that that can. backfire a little bit it's very easy to. just you know scratch the information. Niche all the time and it's not. necessarily leading to more. understanding of humans there's a. difference between knowledge and. understanding right yeah I think if you. pursue it there's more information and. there is more knowledge if you really. get after it but how many people do that.

how many people just read head I do that. all the time I just read a headline I go. did you hear you know what I didn't even. go into the article and oftentimes you. get in the article you're like oh what. is this based on oh this is [ __ ] and. then you go further and you find out oh. no no it's not real at all right there's. a lot of layers and yeah what made me. start thinking about this is. I'm sitting at home and I get this email. and it's from someone who claims that. they're with NASA they go hey we got. this astronaut his name is Mark vandehei.

we do this program where if an astronaut. wants to talk to someone. we'll put them in we'll put you two in. touch and you can FaceTime with them. while he's in outer space and I'm going. is this like the new Nigerian prince. scheme you know like what do you need. from me just access to my bank account. no big deal at what point do I hand over. the credit card right so but I go okay. because the it's a at nasa.gov I'm like. okay that seems they can spoof that. though I'm sure they could I've gotten. emails from me.

I got an email that was from my website. from an email that I don't have yeah and. I was like what is this that's wacky. yeah but I go along with it right and so. they set up this video conference I have. to download this special software and. I'm thinking that this is where it comes. in yep. um. and then all of a sudden I'm waiting for. this guy to show up and then bam there. he is. and I know it's not a long con because. the Dude is floating in outer space he's.

up in the ISS so uh he had read the. Comfort crisis my last book and just. wanted to chat so NASA will do this to. sort of give astronauts a boost to talk. to someone else anyone they want to talk. to and what came out of that. conversation was that he is up there for. the sole purpose of getting information. that can hopefully help us live on as a. species should we have to leave this. planet and go find another. but sort of back to what we were talking. about for him to do that he has to put.

in this mind-body effort to go get that. information right he literally has to go. up into outer space to figure these. things out and he talked about how often. times when he will come back home and. he'll go to schools he'll go to. universities. he goes at some point in every talk I. had this run of like 30 talks where the. Q a someone would always ask me if the. world is flat. and he goes I did not know how to take. that because I would kind of just uh you.

know know and then they would start to. fire off facts and he's like yeah yeah. you haven't no and so I think that that. uh. with minimal barrier to entry you can. find information that confirms your. world view and just follow that strange. Rabbit Hole even though it's not leading. anywhere yeah that rabbit holds the. wildest one that there's been this. long-standing conspiracy to deny the. fact that the Earth is flat to hide it. and obscure it and that all of these.

space agencies all over the world are. all working in cahoots to try to. perpetuate this whole hoax yeah well I. can tell you when he um won. he took me you know around the ISS and. showed me the place over zoom and then. two at one point he flips the the screen. and shows me the Earth. and at least in that instance I can tell. you that it was round maybe it's just a. disc could be that's what a lot of the.

could be in deep people think they think. it's a disc I think it's all a religious. thing they they think that um they're. they're going off of some passages in. the Bible. or they refer to the firmament and they. they refer to like that they they. believe somehow there's like this Dome. over the Earth. and that the the stars are just lights. and the the reason why the moon landing. is fake is because the Moon is not real. read that one today I was like oh boy.

and then uh you know some people think. that stars are fake they don't think. space is real they think it's all a con. by Satan or someone and then that all. these uh space agencies. are in cahoots with Satan which is. really wild if you think about like did. they deny saddle like how much did they. deny did they deny satellites like do. you believe in DirecTV is that a. satellite okay do you believe that the. satellites are taking photos are they. taking any what about the weather.

patterns what about their ability to. determine weather patterns as they move. across the globe what about the flight. patterns what about the fact you could. actually track planes as they go around. the globe like what do you think about. that. yeah you know I. mean there's Japan has. a very sophisticated. um satellite system where they're taking. high resolution photos of the earth like. every few seconds right isn't that what. it is.

yeah a few people do that yeah private. companies that do that and uh they think. that's [ __ ]. that's all lies but it's like what do. you have to like what are you getting. out of that like why would they do that. that's. I don't understand what they think the. motivation is. I think that. some things are complicated in life. and I think that humans really like. certainty. so we are a species who just craves.

certainty there's actually some fun. studies where people will choose to get. shocked by an Electric's app rather than. wait to see if they're gonna get zapped. like just get it over with because I. want to be certain about this thing and. so I think that. um a lot of conspiracies even though. they seem complicated because you know. there's the board with the strings going. everywhere at the end of the day they. give certainty to something that is. uncertain and is complicated and that.

can sort of be relieving you go okay. well this world being flat doesn't jive. with my worldview. I think XYZ this doesn't make any damn. sense and then you can go oh well what. if it's flat and then there's like sort. of this Trail you can follow online. where at the end it goes bam you got it. you're good to go I think people are. always looking to find things out that. they've been lied about so I think they. they believe they don't trust the. government they believe you know various. conspiracies and like the Gulf of Tonka.

and ones that have turned out to be true. and then they go oh okay what else what. else and there's something very exciting. about it also a lot of the people that. are really into it for whatever reason. I mean I don't want to like stereotype. but a lot of them are unsuccessful in. other aspects of their life they might. be successful in one thing or something. like that but there's something about it. that like leads them to want to be the. one who uncovers this truth and I think. it's like uh it plays on the mind like.

we have this desire to go and find. things like that's part of the Explorer. gene or whatever it is the Explorer. whatever whatever it is that makes us. want to get in a boat and say like. where's Hawaii you know like how about. those guys the Polynesians I mean what a. crazy trip they they went all the way. out to the middle of the ocean they. found this volcano there used to be. people who would um I can't remember. what tribe this is but these tribes.

would get in a boat and go hundreds of. miles and it was all for the sake of. meeting another tribe and they would. sort of exchange a couple Goods that. weren't really that meaningful. which suggests it really was for the. journey right they were doing this just. to explore to take on an adventure to. learn from it and bring back this thing. that was. sort of meaningless in the grand scheme. of things but it was symbolic very. symbolic that they had done this great. journey and I think this was in the.

Polynesian Islands where this happened. like around the Philippines hmm. yeah I mean I guess there's also this. longing to understand how people can. live in different places if you're used. to living in a certain like tropical. island and then you find out about. someone who lives in like the tiger. forest in Siberia like how like what are. they doing I mean imagine before there. was video before there was the internet. and really before there were books. people would hear about these people. that did these things and they're like.

where are these people like how are they. living like this and this was probably. this overwhelming desire to see because. you would live the way you lived and you. would say well this is how people live. and you'd be like no no people live so. differently like some of these explorers. that went to these Uncharted islands and. found these people that were living. essentially like you know Stone age-like. no access to Fire And they're they're. living on this island like like what. like what is going on over here how is. this real yeah totally and to with your.

question about that sometimes people who. get really really deep down those rabbit. holes aren't successful I think it. provides. an answer for why the person isn't. successful right you can find a reason. like oh it's it's them that's done this. thing and this is why I have XYZ problem. and I think that and it also pulls on. like I said I think we have a drive to. search for information so if you think. about humans in the past as we evolved.

there was a handful of things you really. needed to survive food possessions tools. information. We crave status as well because if you. could influence more people you probably. had a survival Edge and so I think when. you start to apply that to today's world. because in the past all those things. were relatively scarce they were hard to. find so if you sort of crave them and. always look for them try to grab them. when you had the opportunity. you would have that survival Advantage.

but in today's world all these things. that we evolved to Crave are abundant in. many ways and we don't necessarily have. the governor telling us when we've had. too much so take something like. possessions. even a couple hundred years ago the. average person. probably had like 100 items maybe in. their house now the average home has 10. 000 items in it really yeah 10 000 items. it's the the range is 10 000 that I've. seen to forty thousand and then there's. people that collect stuff like trading.

cards. stamps or coins exactly coins and they. get obsessed with collecting these. things yeah exactly and I think it it. does fall back in to the fact that we. kind of evolved to. ad whether it's food whether it's stuff. whether it's trying to influence more. people whatever it might be. and that can kind of create a cycle for.

people where the pursuit of the thing is. like a thrill end of itself and then you. get it you go oh that's one I gotta I. gotta go do that yeah yeah and then they. got to get another one yeah yeah that. that's it's such a weird it sort of. plays on these original survival. instincts right your your search for. food your search for shelter your search. for fertile hunting grounds you know you. have humans have this sort of inherent. desire to go and find things and then.

something comes along that just monkeys. with that like stamps like now there's. you have to get this 1972 Abraham. Lincoln you know [ __ ] stamp and you. know you're on this quest to get it yeah. and people pay extraordinary amounts of. money for these things too tons. especially like cards like baseball. cards and stuff like that yeah I mean. that's Bonkers how much people pay for. those things yeah it's crazy I was at my. mom's house the other day and I was. going through my old basketball cards I.

used to collect I'm like oh here's a. kind of interesting car like that player. was pretty good I look it up I'm like oh. I'm like it's worth that much money it's. crazy because they don't make them. anymore yeah yeah exactly even though. it's no big deal it's just a piece of. paper yeah. um. so as part of this book I got really. interested in this idea of you know. everyone knows that everything is fine. in moderation. but then the question is like okay well. why the hell can't we moderate right. right people keep eating when they're. full you keep buying stuff when you. gotta you got a house full of stuff even.

stuff like how much media we consume. right it's like people will scroll and. scroll and scroll even though they know. this is not how they want to be spending. their time oh I've I've spent so many. nights where I went to bed at three. o'clock in the morning feeling like a. [ __ ] idiot like what did I do I just. wasted time watching dumb videos and. reading dumb websites and just going. down and I'm tired and I should just go. to bed but I just whatever like maybe. the next thing is gonna really excite me. maybe the next video is really going to.

stimulate nope nope always the same. feeling I go to bed like [ __ ] idiot. you should have been in bed three hours. ago and everyone has that experience. right yep and so I live in Las Vegas. which happens to be a good town to think. about why the hell can't we moderate. right. now when you live there you see all. kinds of wild stuff right. but to me what's always been the. strangest has been the slot machines so. you've spent time in Vegas yeah it's.

like they're in the casinos obviously. but they're in the gas stations the. grocery stores the restaurants the bars. and the airport and they're not sitting. empty right people are playing them. around the clock yeah so I'm like what. the hell is up with that just placing. your dopamine well and it doesn't make. sense because everyone knows The House. Always Wins yeah it's not it's like a a. numbing thing they just sit there and. press the buttons and press the buttons. and press the buttons and hope they make.

money yeah so I I decide all right like. I'm gonna find out how a slot machine. works why do people get hooked on slot. machines that's the question and so I go. into journalist mode and I start making. calls now the first group of people that. I call turns out to be a dead end so who. I call are people who are effectively. anti-gambling researchers okay so these. are researchers who have a very. anti-gambling bent and they tell me all. sorts of sort of strange things they're. like oh it's because casinos don't have. clocks they're like these myths we've.

all heard casinos don't have clocks uh. slot machines only play in the key of C. which relaxes people and relaxes their. wallet casinos don't have any right. angles and right angles uh activate the. rational part of your brain. and so I go okay and then I go to an. actual casino and there's right angles. everywhere right the screens are right. angles uh. no clocks but guess who else doesn't. have clocks like most businesses right. there's not clocks and cons most.

restaurants right yeah it's not normal. to have clocks and then for the uh the. audio the key of C I call up a slot. machine audio composer now this is a. real job you can have in Las Vegas right. and this guy goes where the hell do you. hear that he's like I use all keys. so I realized that the problem that I'm. encountering is that I have called. people who want us to stop gambling uh I. need to call people who want us to start. gambling all right I gotta follow the. money on this so long story short I.

talked to a handful of people in town. and this leads me to uh this casino on. the outside outskirts of Las Vegas. that's brand new it's Cutting Edge. but the catch is that it's not open to. the public so this place is basically a. living breathing casino but it's used. entirely for research on human behavior. what yeah so really who funds that 73. different companies so there's gambling. companies that are involved but also a. bunch of big tech companies who are on.

the fortune 500. so I I go there. and it's it's like I said it's a legit. Casino how big is it it's um I would say. I mean it's not the size of a normal. Casino like a sprawling strip one it's. probably about the size of your. everything you have here maybe a little. bigger. but they have hotel rooms it's like a. Walmart. yeah big yeah it's in this big um office. building basically. and.

they're basically looking at how. everything that happens in a casino. affects human behavior so how does room. design and the technology we're using in. rooms affect Behavior how does bedding. with say an AI bot versus an actual. human impact betting. now when I'm there I meet with to bring. it back to slot machines I meet with a. guy who designs slot machines. so the reason that these things are so. entrancing to people it tracks back to. this Behavior Loop that I call the.

scarcity Loop and this is a basically a. loop looping behavior that when people. do it they tend to get hooked on it very. easy. so it's got three parts it's got. opportunity. unpredictable rewards and correct. repeatability. so opportunity you have an opportunity. to get something of value so in the case. of a slot machine it's money right two. unpredictable Rewards. you know you're going to get the thing. of value if you continue the behavior. but you don't know when and you don't.

know how valuable it's going to be so. with the slot machine game when those. reels are spinning. you could win nothing you could. basically lose your money you could win. a couple dollars or you could win a. life-changing amount of money. there's a fantastic range of things that. could happen and then three quick. repeatability you can immediately repeat. the behavior so with slot machines. the average player plays about 16 games. a minute. and that's different from all other. Habits Like most habits you don't.

immediately repeat them. now the reason that. people are so interested in this. company's casinos is because that this. sort of three-part system I just laid. out it can get people to repeat a lot of. other behaviors too. so it's in social media it's in sports. gambling uh it's in dating apps even. companies like gig work economy. companies are using it to get people to. work longer hours it's being leveraged. by the financial industry and a lot of.

personal finance apps and on and on and. on it's become it's been embedded in so. many of the products even institutions. that influence people's lives because it. is so captivating to us we tend to get. hooked on this three-part system. um and so when when you're talking about. like gig economy stuff like uh you're. talking about like uber yeah things. along those lines driving for Uber and. so how how do they use that so things.

like. um unpredictable rewards get put up in. front of a driver to get them to drive. into an area of town that Uber might. want them to be in there's also. unpredictable rewards yeah so like you. might get. um say oh if you drive here like you're. whatever will you you'll make x amount. more money and it sort of pops up. unpredictably also they'll they'll. incentivize you that they they offer you. more money to go to a different part of. town yeah or dropping in queues it's. saying like hey this is where we are. you're going to make more money today.

type of thing. um if you think about it in terms of. something like social media it's like. the opportunity is to get say status or. likes or whatever it is right and then. say a person posts and then the rewards. become totally unpredictable right you. might get two likes which is like well. that wasn't great or you might get. hundreds of likes which is like oh my. God that's amazing it's the same exact. architecture as a slot machine and then. you check and recheck you're repeating.

the behavior all day. and um. this Loop the reason that we're so. attracted to it it goes back to. evolution. so I talked to this uh once I learned. how this kind of loop pulls people in. it's really what slot machines lean on. to get people to repeat the behavior. I call up a psychologist who's this old. school dude from the University of. Kentucky who's been studying psychology. since the late 60s his name's Thomas. centol and.

um he described he basically explained. this likely goes back to Evolution and. finding food. so if you think about hunter-gatherers. the thing you have to do every day is. find food. but it's a random. it's random whether you're going to find. the food or not so you go to point a you. don't find any food. go to point B you don't find any food. you go to point C no food Point D oh my. God it's a giant berry bush full of food. and that saves your life right so that.

search that repeat searching really. pushes us and grabs our attention. because it used to help us survive in. the past ah and there's even I mean if. you want to get down the rabbit hole and. it there's even. um. things like what are called near misses. in slot machines which is when you kind. of almost win right you might do lemons. yeah two lemons another lemon just. barely passes by barely passes by or. losses disguised as wins do you know. what those are no so that's when uh.

let's say you bet one dollar and you. quote unquote win 50 cents so oh right. so you don't lose everything but you win. 50 cents now we tend to re react to that. as if we're winning when they when they. study uh gamblers and that's also. embedded in the search for food right. you might let's say you're hunting. you're like oh we got a big kill on our. hands and then you whiff and the animals. on its way it's like damn that is a. that's a right that's the near miss. or you come up on a berry bush and let's.

say it took you you burned 500 calories. looking for this thing and it only. contains 200 calories worth of food and. so all of these sort of evolutionary. parts of this system that we used to. fall into as we evolved are now into. slot machines and in turn now being used. by a lot of big tech companies and. different Industries so they just. tricked the human reward system yeah. yeah it mimics these sort of ancient. Pathways more or less and gambling is. what to me is one of the most peculiar.

ones because. um it's so overwhelming for people that. are hooked on gambling it's such a. mental health issue it's such a an. addiction and when you see people that. are just like chasing it and they just. can't stop it's like I always wonder. like what pathway is being hijacked like. what what is about. human beings that want to risk like. literally all of their money on a roll. the dice or on a spin of the roulette. wheel or on a hand of cards like what is.

that yeah. this is a good question now this this. zental guy that I told you about. he does a lot of research on pigeons. so he can basically turn a pigeon into a. degenerate Gambler in like two minutes. okay a pigeon pigeon dude it'll give. them. I said the same thing when I was talking. isn't life hard enough as a pigeon yeah. he uh so he'll get pigeons who you know.

they live in these cages and he'll give. them the option to play a game where. they every other Peck they get say 15. units of food so pack no food pack 15. units of food but then they have an. option to play a second game and this. second game is very much a gambling game. in that they get food about every fifth. pack but it's random right so you could. go pack pack food pack pack next one. could be food pack pack right so it's. just kind of like a slot machine and. they get more food playing the gambling.

game they get 20 units. if you do the math it makes a lot more. sense to play the game where you get. every other right every other pack is. getting you food it adds up to a lot. more food. but what he finds is that the pigeons. consistently play the slot machine game. 97 of pigeons will choose that game but. they're not risking anything they're not. risking anything right but it's so how's. that gambling they're still putting in. the effort to have to play the game yeah. but that seems obvious like the the.

rewards are greater so they know that if. they just keep pecking it doesn't hurt. to pack they're going to get a bigger. supply of food they don't get a bigger. supply though because they'll get 15. every other pack right versus 20 every. fifth pack so if you put in 100 packs. you're gonna get more food playing the. one where it's you get food every other. time right but it's still not gambling. because the pigeon just sees a larger. pile of food with the more pecs so just. wants the larger pile of food so just. keeps going it's not like they're. risking all their food right right.

um so I don't think it's a gambling. thing well the larger the larger pile of. food comes from the predictable Rewards. yes right if you do every other. right yeah every other is how you get. the biggest pile of food but you don't. get the biggest pile in one jump one. dump right the one where it's every five. that's a larger quantity of food yeah so. you get 20. yeah see that's not gambling. why is it not gambling because it's just. more effort it's more effort to get a. bigger pile so he would argue that.

they're just dumb they just can't say oh. it's every other one well all they see. is that they're getting you know. whatever 15 units versus 20 is that what. it was yeah yeah same version all they. know is 20 units like oh this one gives. 20 units just keep pecking I don't think. they're smart enough to figure that out. I think they just like keep calling. qiers 20 keep going keep going 20. but. there's not a risk so here's what I'll. tell you he would argue and a lot of. biologists would they would say you know. there's this Theory called the optimal. foraging Theory it says the animals will.

expend the least amount of energy to get. the most amount of food. all right so over time they're expending. a lot less energy to get more food and. so here's where it gets interesting. though. is that. to sort of bring it back to why do. people fall into this why would someone. bet their entire fortune on a roulette. wheel or whatever. is that when he will put pigeons in a. sort of wild environment so where he. keeps them is in these pigeon cages. where they kind of live alone it's you.

know it's a basic cage. when he puts them in a cage that mimics. the wild so it's this giant cage that. has like Roots it's got Cliffs it's got. other pigeons it's very much like they. would have to live in the wild and then. he throws them back to choose a game. they start choosing the optimal game oh. yeah interesting yeah and so and you see. that in many animals where they do these. sorts of studies like rats. um right that's the cocaine rap thing.

right yeah yeah just like that yeah for. people who don't know that study um what. they call it rat Park so they did a. study where they put rats in this very. sterile environment. laboratory environment bright lights no. toys no nothing and they gave them the. option of water or water with cocaine. and they always took the water with. cocaine they just kept taking the water. with cocaine but then when they put them. in Rat Park which is a much larger thing. with a lot of toys and things to do and.

a lot of places to run around they. didn't do that they just drank the water. right and that but that makes sense it's. like they're [ __ ] living in hell and. the the cocaine water is the only thing. that gives them any good feeling and so. they just keep going back to that good. feeling but when you give them a normal. natural environment where they can just. exist I wonder if that's the case with. people that live like say a subsistence. lifestyle you know if they have access. to something like heroin or cocaine I.

wonder if they would just ignore it. because they get this sort of. very natural environment. that is sort of programmed into our. lives program into our DNA like people. that live a subsistence lifestyle are. unusually healthy I'm sure you've seen. uh have you seen Werner herzog's. documentary happy people. I don't think I've seen that one no it's. great it's happy people life in the. tiger and it's about these trappers who.

live in Siberia and there's very low. instances of mental health issues very. low instances of uh you know all sorts. of problems and that Society just has. that are ubiquitous in their world these. people are very happy and they get by. they just get by I mean they have. snowmobiles and dogs and they hunt and. they trap and they fish. and they just get by and they work every. day yeah and you have to work the only. way to live is to eat and the only way.

to eat is to work and so everybody does. everything that they can and they're all. happy. it's very weird so that that was this. guy's theory is he said there's another. there's another. um Theory I think it's called the. optimal stimulation Theory it basically. says that humans and animals need a. certain level of stimulation. in their life or else they start seeking. it from other things yes. so if you think about the context of how. humans came up I mean it was very sort.

of like the people you talk about on the. tiger right they have you got to work. all day you're outside a lot you're. doing. um tasks that involve your mind and your. body like it's a full-on effort to. survive you're also in sort of. closer-knit communities all these. different things. and today we don't have that quite as. much. and so his theory is that when you don't. have enough stimulation in your life or. meaning from other places humans tend to. start to look for it in other ways. we gamble we spend a lot of time on the.

internet we buy a lot of stuff all right. so we start searching for it somewhere. else and those ways can often. be counterproductive in the long run. when you overdo them yeah yeah totally. makes sense and also you know I was. having a conversation with a friend of. mine about this yesterday. we were talking about how complex the. human mind is and how complex life and. Society is but yet there's no real. management book like there's no real.

there's no document that shows you this. is the optimal way to exist and these. are the pitfalls of existing other ways. that you know you have these human. reward systems built in and they can be. hijacked by these various things and. this is the way the human body and the. human mind. exist optimally and for whatever reason. there's no real structure that people.

can follow that's universally agreed. upon you know like if you like. save your mechanic right and you're. working on an engine like it's it's. there's very clear. documents that show you like these are. the Pistons this is the spark plug this. is the carburetor if it's not clean. it'll do this this is the problem with. the gas line and you have to fit it this. way and that way and so you do it all.

right and then boom it starts up and it. works and you can fix things that way. and you can build things that way we. don't really have that for the most. complex thing that we're aware of which. is human existence yeah totally that's. because it is so complex it's so complex. it's and Technology also changes very. fast so technology is probably. um. it's great in many ways it's a result of. progress right it's kept us led us to. live longer allowed me to fly from Vegas.

to Austin in two hours instead of you. know getting the Old Wagon Train out and. be like yeah I'll see you in like six. months show. yeah right now but how long would that. be by Wagon Train oh man. um it's pretty crazy but I don't think. we've necessarily kept up with it I mean. our Hardware doesn't change that fast. right our software you know and so I. think a lot of the problems that we see. today are often a result of us living uh. as almost sort of ancient creatures in a.

very new modern changing world and. trying to navigate that that's what. scares me about this what seemingly. inevitable connection with humans and. technology is that I think what we're. going to do is integrate with technology. to avoid all the problems that we have. existing in this modern world with this. ancient hardware and that we're going to. adjust our hardware and that the scene. it seems to me that this is inevitable. it seems to me this is just where we're. going and that all humans are going to.

be some sort of cyborg type thing that. we're and also with the invention of AI. and you know I'm sure you're paying. attention all this chat GPT stuff and. that and and deep fakes there's God. there's so many deep fakes people keep. sending me commercials that I've never. done for you know penis enhancements and. you know all these different things well. wild commercials in the sense and it's. my voice yeah and it's my lips moving. and it shows me talking about how great.

these products are and then I've never. even heard of them yeah and this is just. the tip of the iceberg we're just. starting to be able to fake things like. that we're on a consumer model like. someone can just buy the software and. put it together and. you know and now ai can make literal. films so I mean at one point in time. right now there's kind of like The. Uncanny Valley in some ways where you. can kind of see the difference between. what's real what's not real and kind of. like it looks fake. how long before like UFO footage it's a. great example.

um Jeremy kornbell who's like the. premier UFO researcher with George Knapp. you know every now and then I'll find. something online and I'll send it to him. it's like oh that's [ __ ] dude like. this this is what they did and you could. see it this is how and this is why and. like oh okay but there's a lot of that. there's a lot bakes up and it's hard. it's hard to know it's hard to know. what's real and what's fake and we kind. of can tell now. but will we in 20 years I bet no no it. could be five years yeah it might not.

I'm being very generous yeah sure I'm. sure it's five months I mean it's weird. yeah and I think we naturally. gravitate to the technology right. everyone adopts it and then it just it's. just a part of life yeah it's just a. part of life you just sort of fall into. it yeah and oftentimes you get punished. if you're not using the technology even. though it might be bad for you in the. long run yeah so think about something. like trying to keep uh say a teenager. off of social media we know it's. probably not a great place for them to.

hang out a ton right and yet. if they're not on it their life suffers. yeah right because they get they're not. as dialed in socially and for teenagers. being social is very important due to. how the brain is changing at the time. right but even think about work. especially with how work the nature of. work has changed after covid with more. people working from home if you don't. want to be stuck on email all day it's. like I totally get that. but now if you decide well I'm not going. to check my email during these times.

because it drives me insane now you're a. negligent employee so you effectively. have to adopt the technology to live in. the system and then the system starts to. sort of govern your actions I read an. article about a woman who was fired and. she met all of her productivity goals. she was working remotely but the company. detected that she hadn't clicked enough. on her computer. she hadn't hit enough keystrokes she had. moved her Mouse enough and I think there.

was also an issue with the amount of. time she spent in front of the computer. that it wasn't enough meanwhile she met. all of her goals so like how many people. are just in front of an office where. they're not checking in a cubicle just. bullshitting probably listening to this. podcast right now enjoy enjoy and and. you know they're okay they're okay. because they are in front of that. computer and as long as they move their. cursor around and do things and and. I mean they could be listening to this. podcast on under airpods while they're.

also [ __ ] around and doing all these. other things as long as they spend and. they might not be as productive but they. are doing the thing that the algorithm. wants them to do this lady got fired. like. maybe she doesn't need to work as much. to meet the productivity goals you said. for her but she's a good employee right. if you set a productivity goal for an. employee say hey we need to get you know. x amount of units of work done by Friday. and she does it didn't she do her job.

like if she can do her job in 31 hours. and the average person needs 44. isn't. she a better employee yeah she's more. productive yeah she's better right does. she have to be clicking on things. constantly and it's it's kind of crazy. this lady got fired like that's why it. makes me wonder I mean maybe there's. some other factors but maybe not I mean. maybe it's just as simple as like. they're just following numbers and. that's how they hire and fire people. well the numbers are really interesting.

because they're not really that old you. know numbers are maybe 10 000 years old. they're still tribes in the Amazon. there's a tribe called the paraja who. they still don't have numbers they can. discriminate between one two and three. you go above that and it's either small. medium or large and that's probably how. humans thought of quantities for most of. time so if they catch a bunch of fish. they can't say how many fish they go. they have 30 people in their Village. this is the story I just read to the. article there's a little bit of both. both sides. on this story oh she's an Australian.

they have wild rules over there they had. complaints about her missing stuff and. doing work and then she was saying this. is all [ __ ] and they had evidence of. her doing. misconduct in their words so it's a both. Side Story oh okay. okay well there you go that makes more. sense. so. um plus she's very pretty in that. picture maybe she's like trying to be an. influencer maybe they factor that in I. don't know maybe you know it seems like. she's using a filter that's another.

weird thing right filters people like. how many people are just using filters. where I see pictures of like a friend of. mine with his wife. and the wife is using a filter and I. know my friend doesn't look like that. all right you know but he's with her and. she's got the filter on like hey bro did. you go back in time yeah what the [ __ ]. happened you look like you're 15 years. younger just just get back from Hawaii. you're exceedingly Tan in that photo you. look fantastic what are you doing tell. me about your diet yeah so I can kind of.

Bend reality and to to get back to. numbers is that once we invent numbers. it starts to really change uh how humans. behave right especially with measurement. because that provides an element of sort. of certainty so in the case of that. employee it's like someone somewhere. with a clipboard goes well a good. employee has 20 clicks per hour and then. they just go down the thing and go oh. well this person had 19 we got a can her.

so we're measuring by a random number. instead of saying did this person do the. job we want the way that we want them to. what is the outcome of the task we're. trying to do and focusing on the actual. goal which is to make money for a. company I don't know well it seems like. in this story it's kind of more more to. it but that's always the case right if. someone makes an accusation against a. company firing them you know they're. always like I was the best employee ever. and I didn't do anything nobody ever. says I kind of [ __ ] off a little but I.

think I was good enough to keep the job. right nobody ever says that everybody's. always like I was perfect and my boss is. a tyrant in the work environment is. toxic and yeah yeah no one takes. personal responsibility yeah that kind. of [ __ ] now Twitter is a good example of. how putting numbers on things can change. our behavior and why we do what we do. so here's the example is that and I. learned about this from a guy whose name. is t Nguyen so it's.

t-h-i-n-g-u-y-e-n he's a philosopher at. the University of Utah. when you start to measure uh Twitter via. likes and retweets and that sorts of. things that changes what how you use. Twitter so Twitter is now the the. platform formerly known as Twitter is uh. supposed to be billed as a place for. discussion right and so then you ask. yourself okay well what are the goals of. a discussion. and the answer is like well there's like.

a [ __ ] lot of goals right right. behind a discussion it could be to. empathize it could be to understand. someone it could be to push back on them. like there's all these things that can. come out of a discussion all these. possible goals. but when you start to put uh numbers. behind that in the form of likes of. retweets of whatever it is. people start to tweet in a way that. scores likes and retweets and that is a. different goal then is discussion it's. often at odds with that so like what. does well on Twitter it's calling.

someone a [ __ ] it's trying to dunk. on someone it's trying to say something. outlandish or maybe Bend something in a. way that incites outrage right and that. totally changes the point of a. discussion right. and this guy noticed it in in himself. because he so he's a philosopher so his. job is basically to think all day he. goes you know the first time I had a. tweet go viral it was like oh my God. that was awesome and then he found. himself when he would have these sort of.

philosophical thoughts instead of going. into this really deep Zone that he'd. usually have to go into to understand it. he started finding himself going how. could I put this into like a 140. character tweet that'll really do well. right and that changes that changes how. he thinks and what he does and you see. this I mean this isn't just in social. media this is in so many different. systems where we put numbers behind. something it starts to change people's. goal in a way that changes their. behavior. but the goal of scoring numbers is often.

different from the original goal yes of. the behavior you know this uh discussion. actually came up in the hunting World. recently because I was having a. conversation with a friend of mine. there's. two uh goals. in um what one of the things that people. want when they hunt is they want to get. a mature animal for a bunch of reasons. one reason is that the mature animals. say if you get. excuse me if you get like a.

seven-year-old mule deer that is a deer. that has spread its genes it's done its. job in the the reproductive system it's. passed on its DNA and this is an old. mature deer also it's more of a. challenge because this is a wiser deer. this is a deer that has probably. experienced Hunters before most. certainly he's experience mountain lions. and bears and other predators. and so the goal is.

ethically and morally that's the animal. that you should choose to try to hunt. now there's numbers that are involved. now so with deer it's the size of the. antler and the magic number is 200. if. you can get a 200 inch mule deer that is. a very very rare deer that is a deer. that has. lived for a long time it has Superior. genetics it has this very big one have. you ever seen a 200 inch mule deer on.

the hoof yeah they're giant they're. Giant and it's so impressive. um so this guy had shot a mule deer this. beautiful mature mule deer but it scored. 194. it didn't score 200 and he was like. well it's just a deer just another buck. and my friend was Furious he's like this. is a bastardization of everything that. hunting is supposed to stand for like. hunting is supposed to stand for this is. an ethical way to acquire your food this.

is the best wild protein that you can. get it's the healthiest for you it's. also an important thing to manage the. population numbers of these animals so. that they don't get overpopulated which. leads to. the spread of diseases like CWD and. chronic wasting and all these different. things that people attribute to. overpopulation of and car accidents all. these different things. and but the number thing got in people's. heads and this guy was very happy with. his deer until he found out it was 194.

and not 200. because it's like it's. impossible to tell when you're looking. through binoculars right you're looking. through binoculars you go that is a. giant mule deer that's what I want to. get but he was unsatisfied because it. came up in the the so the overall score. the way they do it is kind of. complicated they measure the width of. the base they measured the length of the. tines of the antlers the the width of. how farther apart and all that stuff. gets factored together and it comes up. with a score and his score was six. inches short and he was bummed out which. is just nuts it's crazy it's weird right.

so he's his goal because we put the. number on that is simply just to get 200. or over right to your point where you. just talked about you know why do we. hunt there's all these really complex. but far more valuable and meaningful. reasons that we go out into hunt but if. you get captured by this number that. changes your experience in a way that is. probably not a good thing yeah I mean. you saw this in the wine world when. Robert Parker started the wine Advocate. I think this was in the early 80s or 70s.

so this guy is Robert Parker is this guy. from Maryland and kind of grew up in the. Backwoods he's just a normal dude. he likes wine but he thinks oh all this. snobby language around wine like it's. keeping people who would otherwise enjoy. it from from drinking it so it's a good. intent and so what he decides is I'm. going to start I'm going to start a. magazine I'm going to start giving wines. a score from 50 to 100. so when he starts this. the magazine takes off.

because now the average consumer can. know. well this is an 80 this is a 90. the 90s. better I'm buying that. now here's the thing though is that. it is Parker who's testing the wines. and he's also having to test them alone. not with food now one of the main. reasons you drink wine is to drink with. food because it changes as you drink it. right. um. but his scoring system if a wine scores. really well those bottles fly off the.

shelf whereas the ones who don't get. quite as good of a store a score they. collect dust so what the wine industry. does is they go okay well if we want to. sell a lot of wine we got to produce. bottles that get a good score from. Robert Parker so they change how they. make wines to suit his palate. now if you don't have Robert Parker's. palette if you don't like what he likes. like this is meaningless to you right. and so there's one person one person and. then you started to see I mean his uh.

industry and empire grew you start to. see a lot of other. um wine rating places pop up that mimic. it but it's the same with. um it's the same with any review right. if you put a number on it it's kind of. this arbitrary thing that someone has to. make up and it's often done in a vacuum. and it's very very subjective but we. pretend like it's objective and then we. behave like it means something right. yeah. I have a very good friend who's a wine. connoisseur like a real wine connoisseur. like he has this big Wine Cellar in his. home you go in it's filled with all this.

crazy wine and he knows everything about. wine he can tell you what the good years. were and where The Vineyards were and. where the things come out of and. he had a birthday and so he invites me. to this uh wine pairing dinner on his. birthday and it was great the food was. great the wine was great but it was so. bizarre because they bring these flights. of wine and then everyone tests the wine. people are recording themselves doing.

this they have little tape recorders and. they're talking about the tannins and. the Oaky this and the that and and then. someone opens like that I think this. one's corked this one's corked and. they're testing yes I believe this one's. quirked and I'm like this one's my. favorite I don't even understand what's. going on here and there was this one guy. that was there that was being heralded. as this big wine expert and they would. refer to him. well cut to years later. that guy gets arrested and he winds up.

doing 10 years in jail for making fake. wine and there's a documentary on it the. documentary is called sour grapes. and it's amazing documentary I haven't. seen I've seen it pop up now I've got to. watch it it's very very interesting. because it plays on this very strange. thing that people have to want the. rarest most unique thing and what this. guy did was he started well he started. buying wine that was the first thing he.

did he would go to these auctions and. you know I don't know if you've ever. seen any of those wine auctions but. they're. super bizarre like people are spending. ungodly amounts of wine of money on wine. like ancient bottles and very rare. bottles and so this guy's buying all. this wine so he is established as this. connoisseur and then what he's doing is. he's going to his home and he's aging. these labels and he's creating labels. and he starts auctioning off and I think.

is it Sotheby's or Christies someone's. involved in this auction that kind of. should know that this is [ __ ] like. they haven't checked and so. one man from one Vineyard who's this. very famous Family Vineyard sees bottles. of his company's wine for sale and he. says we never made a magnum that year we. never made that bottle of wine like that.

is not real and that you know is going. for insane amounts of money and so then. they start doing an investigation and. they find out that this guy has made and. sold thousands of bottles of fake old. wine including to the Koch brothers and. this is where he got [ __ ] this is. where he did he sold the Koch brothers. like millions of dollars worth of wine. and these guys are just super Ballers. with an unlimited amount of money. and they were buying like Lincoln's. bottle of wine like Thomas Jefferson's.

bottle like that kind of crazy [ __ ] and. people are saying nope that's not even. it's handwriting that's not this is not. real so these guys were they got duped. and so then they opened the. investigation and they find this guy's. house and they find the bottles of wine. he was buying old bottles and recorking. them and like making the labels dirty. and doing all this different [ __ ] and. but it's so interesting because one of. the guys in the film is like uh this was. a bottle that he sold me was the legit. because the guy was selling legit wine.

too. he's like this one's legit and they're. drinking you can tell and this other guy. comes on can I let me try that he's like. this is garbage this Wine's garbage this. is fake it doesn't have the complexity. it doesn't have the the robustness it. doesn't have the and and these other. guys who are like also supposedly. experts like I'm like what what are you. guys tasting what is going on here like. what is this weird thing that you're. chasing that the difference is so subtle. it's not even the difference between. Coke and Pepsi you know it's so subtle.

but yet it's the difference between a. bottle of wine it's worth 50 bucks a. hundred bucks and 40 000. and no one knows no one can tell and. this guy had apparently according to my. friend such a palette that he could. experiment by taking these various much. more inexpensive wines combining them in. very specific ratios and recreate. something that was very similar and as. long as you got it in this bottle and as.

long as you looked at it and it's like. oh is it from 74 and you you thought you. were getting the real [ __ ] and so then. there's the placebo effect right you're. you're tasting it and you're imagining. it this is Rich robust wine that very. few people can appreciate and then. you're all appreciating this one. meanwhile this guy's laughing his ass. off because he made it in his [ __ ]. Century City uh house I mean he's like. it's [ __ ] nuts he's got it in the. bathtub yeah I mean literally see if we.

can get some clips out of that there was. actually a study and it was conducted I. think at a university in France that has. a good wine department the researchers. they got a bottle that you know was. scored really high in a bottle that was. scored low and they got this group of. students and without them knowing they. switched the labels right so they so the. bad bottle has the nice label on it and. vice versa yeah and they you know served. it out and they had them talk about it. and raid it and do all these things and.

you know where I'm going with this the. students who think that the uh the. terrible bottle is good they give it all. this like oh it's got a deep blah blah. blah you know they're using all the. tannins and all the word salad you know. and then with the the bottle that was. actually expensive and highly rated that. they thought was bad they you know yeah. this is cat piss and so and so. expectations often to your point about. the placebo effect they shape how you. experience something yeah as well it's.

that world is so strange because the. difference between a very good glass of. wine and a good glass of wine is so big. I was with my friend Mark once we were. in Florida and we were eating at this. Italian restaurant and uh it was a great. restaurant and I said let's get a crazy. bottle wine let's get a [ __ ] really. nice bottle of wine and I've never had. like a thousand dollar bottle of wine so. we bought this bottle of wine from you. know 1980 or whatever the [ __ ] it was. it wasn't that good it was okay it was.

okay okay yeah yeah yeah it was like it. was okay and then we were I said okay. let's flip it up because there's quite a. few people at the table I said let's. flip it up and let's get our next bottle. let's get like a 90 bottle of wine and. we're both like this is better this. one's better like this is I I don't know. what I'm drinking I don't know what I. just know what what this tastes like. nice wine yeah like so. here so here's how this guy did this so. he would take these bottles and sit them.

in water. and you know he had all these labels and. all these different things and he would. get bottles from you know like used. bottles like bottles of legitimate wine. that he had already you know drank. you're not [ __ ] that he's literally. doing this in some random apartment oh. yeah he was doing his house. yeah I mean look he's got the windows. taped up so no one could see him doing. it he's got [ __ ] he's got aluminum. foil on the Windows like he's doing. heroin in there it's like you cooking. meth in there yeah man I'm just pulling.

some labels off some more wine bottles. so at the end of this documentary they. wind up destroying thousands of bottles. of this wine and it's it's really. Bonkers because like it's he could have. sold that wine for who knows how much. money and so see see there he's got all. those labels that he had sitting there. that was the guy that got duped and this. is the guy that duped him that guy with. the glasses on he was the one who's like. this one's a real one and the other wine. actually was like [ __ ] this is fake as. [ __ ] interesting and I don't even know. how they know or if they really do know. I mean I'm such a I'm such I don't know.

anything about wine I just like I just. say uh what's a good wine you know when. I go to a restaurant pick one out for me. that's good yeah I don't understand or I. call my friend who is a legit expert and. I'll say tell me a good and he's usually. right I mean oh he's always right. but what does it mean what does it mean. I mean am I going to notice the. difference especially two glasses in. when you're eating a steak no as long as. it doesn't taste terrible it's a nice. wine I don't yeah I'm not I'm not super. into that world either I just gotten so. interested in this idea of numbers and.

having the sort of certainty of. quantification changing our behavior in. strange ways that I ended up down that. rabbit hole another good example would. be so I'm a professor. why do you go to college. a lot of reasons right right you want to. acquire information you also want to. make friends you want to learn how to. get your [ __ ] together to turn things in. on time to get on a schedule that you're. going to need when you go out into the. world to get a job all these different. things right. but one of my students most obsessed. about.

their GPA. and that's totally that's very different. and I found in my experience as a. professor that it's often not the. students who are straight A's who are. the best because those students tend to. be a little more robotic the students at. our best tend to be in the B plus a. minus so this is because they might have. they might be working 40 hours a week. along with that so this suggests they're. pretty gritty they're a hustler or they. might be too free thinking right they're. the type of students where I say hey do. the assignment this way and they do it a.

different and they're just going oh well. I thought I could do it this way and. blah blah blah blah you know and they. also don't don't tend to ask about their. grades now the reason that we use grades. is simply because it makes the lives of. Administrators much easier right if you. need to compare students quickly if. you're sending people through the system. you can put a number on it and you can. kind of rank people but it doesn't. necessarily reflect whether this person. has accomplished all these different. things why you would want to go to. college yeah and what do you go into.

college for are you going to college to. get a good job if you have a high GPA. wouldn't that make you more likely to be. hired so there's that yeah there's that. little tricky thing also with numbers. because it's also very hard to quantify. whether or not a person is going to be. productive. I mean I guess you meet with them and. then you want to find out you know how. they are socially. you know uh you know like when you talk. to them are they easy to communicate. with are they gregarious are they they.

seem like a good person that would be. you know a nice person to have around. the office because you know they it. would make a pleasant work environment. and that would also help things more. productive become more productive it's. like. I I get why there would be numbers but. it is a strange thing that humans are. obsessed with numbers yeah I think it. goes back to what we were talking about. earlier with certainty yeah you put a. number on something you can be certain. what it is that you've done the right. thing but the reality is is that all.

these metrics they're so much gray that. goes into them but when we see them we. think they're black and white yeah and. that can um you know obviously we need. numbers our world runs on them but I. also think we need to be skeptical that. they tell the absolute truth and I think. we need to be aware of the fact that. they can change our behaviors in such a. way that we miss sort of these greater. purposes of why we're doing the things. yeah that we do. yeah and a lot of people don't know why. they do they just they just want to be. successful right yeah like they don't.

it's very hard if the thing about. uncertainty right. and this is the thing that you have when. you're in college or this is the thing. you have when you're embarking upon a. risky career like there's so much. uncertainty is this going to work for me. am I going to make it is it going to. happen. or I'm gonna or am I gonna be left out. like everybody am I going to be one of. the people that doesn't make it am I. going to be one of those sad stories. like this person they just failed in. life and they want to dine of a heroine. over overdose you know like no one wants.

to be that guy right so it's like what. do I have to do and you know what what. are the metrics that I have to achieve. like what are the numbers what's the. thing that I have to do to show oh I. make a million dollars a year I'm a. winner you know that's a thing totally. like if you are a millionaire you could. say listen I'm a millionaire like whoa. you did it you made it right but that. person might be [ __ ] miserable right. so isn't the goal to be happy like maybe. a person who makes 100 Grand a year is.

you know they get their bills paid they. live comfortably they're happier yeah. they're better off they do what they. actually enjoy doing for a living and. it's just not as profitable yeah like. maybe that's a better goal but we we. can't quantify that like how can I I. can't put half happiness on a scale. right I can't put like if you're a. person like say you make knives. you make Chef's knives and you know. you're just making these beautiful. gorgeous knives like and you get deep.

satisfaction out of this but you're just. like [ __ ] barely getting by you're. paying your bills like but you're living. kind of Check to Check and it's all. about like selling the next knife and. okay now we've got the mortgage paid and. I got to keep making knives that guy. might be happier than some crazy person. who's buying 100 000 bottles of wine. because that person doesn't even know. what's making them happy anymore like. they don't enjoy their job they're just. getting money so they can acquire these. things right exactly you're just kind of.

chasing that next whatever it is the the. purchase yeah. um you know the person that you've. hooked up with though whatever it might. be yeah and. I do think to. I do think that what people tend to. Chase and think is going to make them. happy does tend to go tend to fall back. into the evolutionary argument of like. what did we need to survive right it was. food it was stuff it was status status. influence over others it was um you know. information and even people really lean.

on on the smartest person or whatever. but I don't think you know obviously. having a certain amount of income. correlates to happiness but once you get. above a certain level. kind of disappears yeah so I think it. was in. I'm trying to remember the exact cutoff. of the years it's somewhat irrelevant. but. income Rose in real dollars 50 from say. 1979 to like 2005 or whatever the years. are.

um but happiness didn't actually. increase in the United States. so even though we got richer dollar for. dollar with adjusted for inflation. happiness levels didn't seem to increase. and this suggests that at a certain. point once you have your needs taken. care of. you're probably going to be good to go. and in fact probably chasing more of. sort of these. ephemeral things you know is not going. to make you happy it creates anxiety. creates anxiety part of it so part of. the book I have a section on because the. book overall looks at.

okay. why are humans not good at moderation. what are the things that we are bad at. moderating at and how do we think about. getting out of that cycle. and so because I'm an investigative. journalist I go places for stories right. I'm going to go talk to experts I'm. going to go live with different groups. who are interesting. so to get into this idea of happiness I. spent a week living with these. Benedictine monks in the mountains of.

New Mexico. so these guys have benedicting monk it's. an order of Catholicism so these guys. they live in an Abbey they all live. together they basically don't talk to. each other they there's only a handful. of hours they can talk and. um they also have to work every day four. hours manual labor. they have to go into the Chapel to pray. seven times a day. and so despite having this really. austere kind of hard life that Demands a.

lot of them. when researchers look at their happiness. levels and compare them to the General. Public. they're much higher. and what are they looking for when they. say happiness levels they're looking at. self-reported status life satisfaction. scores so they basically ask them how do. you feel about this how do you feel. about this and then they come up with a. metric that they it's basically what. they think of as happiness. hmm that's a weird one because that. you're you're getting a person who's.

completely isolated from the rest of the. world right so you're not comparing. they're not comparing themselves to. other people. so like what they consider. happiness I wonder. if they have people that are living. different walks of life that they can. compare to. if maybe they would not have the same. score that's a great question you know. like they think they're happy but maybe. they would be happier if they could.

sleep till 10 a.m you know maybe they. would be happier if uh you know they. could go on a trip every now and then. and just go see Paris maybe they would. be happier if they had a car they could. just drive out to the mountains and just. like sit on the top of a ridge and just. look at the beautiful scenery they don't. do that because they don't have a car so. they maybe they're self-reported. happiness is incorrect yeah it could be. or there could could be that you're to. your point they could be happier yeah. what I do think it suggests that you.

don't necessarily need all these things. that we've been talking about to be. happy right and a lot of times I think. what makes people happy is not. necessarily chasing the next item that. sort of Chase of like I'm gonna buy this. thing I'm gonna hit this amount of money. I'm gonna do this it is finding some. sort of higher purpose trying to do the. next right thing however you interpret. that and eventually people wind up. finding themselves happy. um. yeah what is yeah it's like it's weird.

right because you can't put it on a. scale. like you can tell if someone's. overweight you can't tell if someone's. happy right and I'll tell you man it was. pretty funny because you know when I get. there. I arrived during What's called the Grand. silence so this is a time when all. speaking is forbidden except in you know. grave instances and apparently my. arrival classified as a grave instance. so the grave the guy uh you know this. this monk meets me and he kind of you.

know walks he's like this is the chapel. being there at 350 for 3 50 in the. morning for you know this service and. then here's where we eat breakfast and. by the way don't for breakfast we don't. sit we don't talk so blah blah blah and. then he takes me up to like the guest. quarters and. you know what do I do one of the one of. the rules is to not be lazy and to not. be tiresome and of course I sleep. through the 3 50 a.m meeting in the. chapel right but I make it down for. breakfast and it was really fascinating. living that way.

for a week I mean I definitely I got a. lot out of it and had some interesting. conversations when we could talk and. just watching the people live and. interact I think it just opens. up a lot of you go oh there's like. different ways of viewing things and. there's probably something I can learn. from that am I going to be living in the. monastery anytime soon like hell no but. there's things we can learn from. interacting with other people in the. present who are different than us yeah. also they're only interacting with the.

people that they're interacting with. physically. which I think is a real issue with human. beings I mean we were talking about. dunking on people on Twitter and that. kind of stuff. I don't do that I've done it in the past. but somewhere along the line I realized. that. the energy that I'm putting out if I'm. being negative that affects me whether I. realize it or not if I'm being mean and. shitty to someone and trying to ruin. their day that affects me whether I.

realize it or not it's not good for you. it's not healthy I don't want to do that. in person I don't want to look at a. person in the eye and say mean things to. them and I don't want to look at a. person on a screen and say mean things. to them I understand that there's a. great pull to that because of the. numbers because if you do dunk on. someone you know and say well why don't. you [ __ ] do and then and all these. people put memes and all these different. things and you get a hundred thousand. likes or whatever. I don't I don't think that's good for.

you and I don't think you really get. anything out of that other than the the. score it's not enhancing your life in. any real way you know you're just you're. contributing to the negativity of the. world and I think. as [ __ ] corny and as cliche as it. sounds and I've thought of it I've. especially thought of this after a. psychedelic experiences which have been. some of the most profound life-changing. and. um. perspective altering experiences I've.

ever had that. that I have to think about overall good. the overall good of what I'm doing like. what is over I think a podcast is pretty. easy for the most part because. for the most part what we're doing is. having a conversation. and I think this one is very interesting. to me and so I think it's probably going. to be very interesting to other people. and these subjects are very interesting. and they they stimulate your mind and I. feel good about my work I feel good. about it I feel like when people come up.

to me I love your podcast I'm like thank. you I'm glad you enjoy it I really like. it I like that I think I'm doing a good. thing I think I'm putting a good thing. out there and I think it's so I feel. good about it if I was using my podcast. to tear people apart and tear things. down and I mean I do with I criticize. things that need to be criticized but I. try to be. fair and I try to be as overall net. positive as possible and I think I'm. going to try to do that more and more as. time goes on I think I'm going to avoid.

even. I mean even this open criticism of. people that deserve it I mean I wonder. how productive that really is I I often. think about it like should I just spend. more time. instead of doing that on things that I'm. just fascinated with and I think that. would probably be better for me probably. create less people that are upset at me. create less people that are upset. listening to it. and it's probably better overall like.

the overall good of things so it's like. if you're doing something where you're. creating things like we're talking about. knives like Chef's knives that's an. overall positive thing you are creating. a thing that someone will use and. they'll appreciate and enjoy it's an. overall positive Exchange. and so I think the more overall positive. exchanges you can create in your life. the better and it took me a long [ __ ]. time to figure that out it took it. really took me until I started doing.

this podcast I mean this podcast has. been this insanely educational. experience to me that I didn't expect to. have I didn't expect to be educated I. expected to just do it because it was a. fun thing to do I used to like doing. morning radio. and I I was like well do my own [ __ ]. thing and it'd be kind of like doing. morning radio but then along the line. when I started having guests on and I. started considering other people's. perspectives and I started considering. how I interact with those people and. getting better at interacting with them.

and having some negative experiences and. negative negative shows and negative. interactions I realized like those don't. make me feel good those feel like [ __ ]. like what do I have to do to not do that. and and create more positive experiences. and as I've done that the more I've done. that the better I've gotten at that the. happier I've been with what I do. so what's the big takeaway if you had to. sum it up from that experience. I mean we affect each other and if. you're affecting each other in a.

negative way you're not doing overall. good but if you can affect people in a. positive way you are doing overall good. and so I try to do that I try to do like. when we do podcasts that are fun I try. to make them like if I have comics on. just so let's just have a good time like. I don't want anybody to feel bad I want. everybody to have fun let's have a great. time let's laugh I love comics in. particular because we can [ __ ] on each. other and it's funny like like if a. comic makes fun of me it's funny to me.

too like it's I don't my feelings don't. get hurt it's part of what we do to each. other like when we're alone like comics. in a green room are hilarious with each. other we just always [ __ ] because we're. looking for things to make fun of and. you can appreciate it's like if you're. sparring and someone hits you with a jab. like oh that was a good shot like you. got oh I dropped my hand yep thank you. you know it's like you're getting. something out of that you're getting. something out of the the kind of verbal. sparring but it's all good natured and. it's all fun and unfortunately some. people don't feel that well it's not you.

can't take like comedian thinking and. apply it to other people some people get. like super upset if you dunk on them. yeah but you're not trying to be so I. have you know you have to learn how to. not do that amongst regular people and. I've made those mistakes too yeah one I. mean one guy who's really helped me in. my own life. um he's helped a lot of people he said. you know I think at the end of the day. of all the people I've talked to. most people. they just want to be loved yes and they. don't want to be alone yes yes they want.

to be loved they don't want to be alone. they want to enjoy their experience with. other people and I think that even when. you look at. the are bad behaviors. they usually provide some sort of. short-term benefit that often gets. overlooked like I don't think people do. things for bad reasons I think that. people usually get something from any. Behavior they do that doesn't mean the. behavior isn't maladaptive but usually. in the short term there is a benefit and.

a reason why they're doing the thing. they're doing and it usually goes back. to some sort of deeper reason right so. the a case would be a person who's an. [ __ ] it might be a defense mechanism. because maybe they were raised by a. parent who was terrible to them right. and so they feel like they always need. to be on the defensive and so yeah when. we walk in you know 20 years later we go. that guy's a [ __ ] but really it's. like. no he still just hasn't recovered from. being a kid whose parent was a jerk to. them yes and realizing that people are. usually acting the way they're acting.

for a good reason I think gives you. space it gives you empathy and allows. you to interact with others better in. the world and that changes your own. experience because if I look at the. [ __ ] and be like hey [ __ ] that guy. and that changes the rest of my day like. that's not a that's not good for me. either right right I can just back out. well you know. some people are that way and probably. probably a reason for it and you have. children I don't have children no one of. the things that happened to me when I um.

I started real when you see someone go. from being a baby to an adult. you you think about human beings in a. very different way I think about. everyone I meet I think of them as a. baby. like oh this is a like if I meet some. poor homeless person in front of a gas. station. when I was younger I would look at that. person and go [ __ ] idiot get your. [ __ ] together and now I look at that. person like what hand did life give you.

right like you were a baby this was. there was this lady I saw recently and. she had the most insanely bad posture. like maybe some like she had suffered an. injury like a broken neck. because her her head was like she was. like very frail and very obviously. addicted to drugs and dirty and her head. was like hanging down like this so. deeply that she couldn't barely look up. to like ask for money.

and you know. I just all I could think of was that was. someone's someone's a little baby you. know you see some guy who's like. sleeping on a the corner of a street. just carved and felt that was someone's. little boy yeah that was a little a. woman gave birth to this little boy and. they had you know all the potential in. the world if they were in a different. environment if they were in a different. if they had different genes if they were. in different neighborhood if they had.

different parents if they had different. experiences but now here I find them in. worst case scenario on the ground you. know being ignored people are passing. them by no one cares about them. you know. it's uh a testament to the health of a. society when you see how many people are. in that state like that's one of the. things that I I find very troubling. about a lot of these uh big cities like.

particularly like Los Angeles that are. just overrun by these homeless. encampments and uh it was interesting. because I saw something today about. Gavin Newsom. and um he is trying to uh there. apparently there's some sort of law that. he's trying to get rid of that does not. allow you to move homeless people. and he's trying to get rid of that he's. and and he's making sense it's like this.

is not good for them it's not it's like. it's you're not saying that you're not. caring about these homeless people but. to just be forced by law to not be able. to move these encampments seems insane. not just counterproductive but a barrier. to productivity a barrier to progress. and you know kudos to him for trying to. do that I give that guy a lot of [ __ ] I. probably shouldn't. you know because like I think that job. is insane he said something crazy about.

me recently so like his son is involved. in these micro Cults where he's. listening to people like Jordan Peterson. and me and. I think he's upset because I called him. a con man which I probably shouldn't. because that's not product. productive either just call someone a. con man he's a politician he's doing. what he's trying to do but he did do. something that I really like recently he. vetoed this bill that would have uh. forced a parent to affirm a child's. gender uh in in order to keep custody of.

the child it was like some crazy sort of. orwellian thing that they're trying to. do. where you have to affirm a child's. gender If the child is trying to change. gender if you do not do that you could. lose custody of your child and he vetoed. that so kudos. to him for doing that it's looking it's. got to be a [ __ ] insane job you know. and for us to stand on the outside. and just. [ __ ] on these people especially someone.

like him who's handsome and tall and. slick back hair and he talks really well. so he's bullshitting us look at all the. problems he's created look at all the. things but also try managing those. problems try try figuring it out what do. you do with a hundred thousand homeless. people particularly if you can't even. move them yeah right and so kudos to him. for trying to figure out a way to get. rid of that law you know it's so easy to. criticize on the outside it's so easy to. just look at this stuff on the outside. and go you know you need to get it.

together you [ __ ] suck but yeah who. doesn't suck what mayor of a big city. doesn't suck there's always going to be. someone who thinks the person is totally. awful and people who are like ah they're. okay and people who love them you know. um well especially um look no one cared. about him at all until covid nobody was. upset at him right and then you're. confronted with this problem that no one. has faced in a hundred years we're going. to shut Society down there's a pandemic. there's a giant pandemic and there's the.

solutions on the table. and politically. particularly in California these are. universally accepted Solutions like. everyone must get vaccinated I mean. you're literally having people like Sean. Penn on TV saying that if you're not. vaccinated you're literally holding a. loaded gun to people's heads now. in their defense at that time they. really believed that this vaccine was. going to stop transmission and it was. going to stop infection and if you.

didn't do that you you were [ __ ] it. up for everybody else. the problem with that logically of. course is that. if it didn't if it did stop transmission. and it did stop infection wouldn't. people just realize that and you would. you would like the only the people who. got the vaccine would be okay and then. everybody else would be [ __ ] of course. over time we've realized. that's not really the case it doesn't. stop transmission it doesn't stop.

infection and there's some very weird. data that shows that the more often. you're hit with these mRNA vaccines. there seems to be some correlating. effects where like the Cleveland Clinic. study which showed that the more often. people were vaccinated those people got. covered more than the people who weren't. vaccinated as much or weren't vaccinated. at all. but how the [ __ ] do you know that in. 2020 you don't you know when you're. dealing with this thing in 2020 and.

universally politically. in especially in a blue state in a blue. City like Los Angeles you kind of have. to do that because that's your job you. have to tell people to go get vaccinated. you have to tell people to do this and. you should put you know if it really if. you really did think it would work you'd. put incentives in place to make sure. that it does work. but then also when you know that it. doesn't anymore then you have to adjust. that's what I think it is and the. problem with that is then you have to.

admit you're wrong right and that's. terrible politically yeah because then. you give your enemies Fuel and then they. get to come after you you were wrong. about this and you were wrong about that. but I was right and I should be the. leader right right yeah I think you know. when that when that thing went down we. didn't know what was right or wrong. nobody knew what was right or wrong I. think most people are trying to make the. best uh guests they could given the. information that we had but I think. you're also right in the sense that once. we learn that the information that we. were working off of isn't right we need.

to correct and be vocal and I think that. generally. uh being more open about why we're. making the decisions we are and. accounting for the uncertainty is. probably the answer rather than. trying to pretend we know everything in. the moment when the reality is that we. don't it's just super difficult to do. that and be a politician because you're. dealing with polls you're dealing with. people that they pick on every single. thing that you say and try to find fault.

in it and try to find uh you know their. own Counterpoint that's more effective. and more accurate. and then you also have money right you. have the influence of the pharmaceutical. drug companies that want everybody to. get vaccinated they want everybody to do. it and they they want the politicians to. do it and then when your people want it. too what do you do do you stand up and. say hey folks I don't think we should do. that like that's pretty easy to do if. you're in Texas like with Governor. Abbott did he was like you know like no. I'm not going to force people to do.

anything and no we're going to open the. state back up and I remember so many. people were like oh my God you're going. to kill people right you're opening up. way too soon this is dangerous turned. out that wasn't the case. but if it was right then you know those. people it was a lot of guessing man tons. of guessing tons of guessing and Monday. morning quarterbacking is so [ __ ]. easy to do and I do a lot of that yeah I. do a lot of Monday morning. quarterbacking yeah.

um yeah the the questions of. homelessness too is a big one especially. addiction. um that's one that I covered in this. book addiction's the big one right. addiction's the big one it's the extreme. end of an ability to not get enough also. incentives you know places like San. Francisco in particular in Portland. where um they actually give people I. think in San Francisco they actually. give people money. to stay there so these people are there.

and they they give them you know x. amount of dollars a month for food and. for whatever they need and they sort of. incentivize these people to not improve. their lives yeah I think you know. addiction is really interesting because. for the longest time we thought about it. as a moral failing so an addict is a bad. person and now the shift uh it's sort of. shifted around 1995 to thinking that uh. an addict has a brain disease. and I'm not sure that that's quite right.

either. I think personally after looking into. this that addiction is more of a symptom. of an underlying problem and that using. the substance solves the problem in the. short term but creates a long-term. long-term problems with everything over. gambling with gambling everything with. eating I mean that is the story of what. an addiction is Right choosing the. short-term reward that creates long-term. problems and consistently doing that. over time yeah I think the problem with. the model we currently see it as is.

being a brain disease is that it can. deflate hope for people. so when you look at reasons why people. relapse there was a big study in New. Mexico of Alcoholics. I found that the number one reason for. relapse was believing that addiction was. a brain disease and therefore if I have. this disease and there's no known cure. for it what's the point of even putting. up an effort and those people tended to. relapse at much higher rates so I think.

for me and and I'll I'll tell you I've. been sober nine years and for a long. time I thought it was a brain disease. and I went into this book thinking that. and I've changed my mind and I have a. ton of empathy too because I think that. if you are addicted and I can tell you. this uh nothing solves a problem like. using your substance of choice in the. short term. like it is ultimately a solution right. for a problem. and that's how really drugs have always.

been so when you look at when humans. first started using psychoactive. substances they're often used as a tool. as a solution so for example you chew. coca leaves you get more energy you get. more Focus that helps you on a long hunt. right alcohol used to you know waft off. of fermenting fruit you smell alcohol in. the air you go eat that fruit it's going. to help you find the fruit one you're. gonna eat more of it because it has a. low level of alcohol and it also kills a. lot of germs on the fruit so this is the.

story of like every psychoactive. substances right right in the past these. actual psychoactive component itself was. relatively scarce but it helped us live. on. the difference is that now we've sort of. concentrated the psychoactive effect. and put it at scale. and I think that is really what starts. to create a lot of these long-term. problems because it is such a such a. stronger. substance and it's available everywhere. everywhere it's available at every.

restaurant every every restaurant has. drugs yep I'd like a glass of whiskey. with my meal exactly you're on drugs. exactly whether you realize it or not so. I went to to study this topic and. understand it I ended up traveling to. Iraq. now Iraq is an interesting case study of. this because they used to not have. addiction really and a lot of that is. because Saddam ruled with an iron fist. there's no drugs getting in the country. the U.S ends up invading and you know.

throwing him out and because of that war. you have a lot of people who are in. trauma they have problems the economy is. in ruin they've lived through a war. and then what happens is that Syria. Falls and becomes a narco State and they. start pumping out a drug called captagon. have you heard of this no so it is. analogous to methamphetamine it's a pill. they put a lot of stimulants in it now. Syria produces. no [ __ ] billions and billions of pills.

that are moving around the Middle East. right now like they just busted. um a big shipment I can't remember where. it was coming through in the Middle East. but it was like a billion some odd. dollars worth of captagon so this drug. is sweeping across the Middle East and. so what happens in Iraq is that you have. a population who is has a lot of pain a. lot of problems in their life uh there's. not many outlets for those problems and. then you have a substance come in that. solves problems in the short term and. you tend to see addiction spike in that.

country so I um and it was a wacky trip. too I had um. you know I need to get a fixer or. whatever and I I land on this guy and. he sends me this email he goes okay I. know you're here to study captagon here. all the groups we're meeting with the. precise times we're going to meet them. here's the hotel you're going to be. staying in it's the nicest most secure. hotel in Baghdad I'm going to pick you. up in this you know secure top of the. line SUV blah blah blah you're good to. go it's like okay.

so I land there. my man picks me up in a 10 year old beat. to Hell Hyundai base model. drops me off at my hotel which is this. sort of hole in the wall just bombed out. Hotel. picks me up the next day I'm like okay. let's get our meetings going you know. and he goes oh no no those are just. proposals the itinerary was proposed so. this guy totally bullshitted me on like. every fact of this oh no and I'm in.

Baghdad and I'm like oh my God this is. going to be a long week how long ago is. this this was last summer oh boy yeah so. I'm going all right well let's figure. this out he goes no don't worry about it. just you know worry about other things. like what we're gonna have for lunch. I'll figure this out for you I'm like. okay whatever dude so the first few days. we're just madly driving around Baghdad. in this dude's you know neither secure. nor top of the line Hyundai the whole. time and he's texting and calling people.

he's got two phones he's texting as he's. driving and he ends up getting in like. two car accidents doesn't even stop the. [ __ ] car duty just like Banks off a. car and just rolls down by window and. yells some [ __ ] in Arabic I'm like. what'd you say to those people he goes I. said why are you in my way. oh boy. like Okay. um. but just as this guy's sort of griffed. you know worked on me it starts to work. on other people. so he somehow talks us into this uh.

police Compound on the outskirts of town. where they hold uh the big drug. smugglers in the country and different. terrorists so I talked to the police. there we talked to some of the the uh. people in the prison. then he ends up getting this sort of off. the books meeting with uh two Iraqi. Intelligence Officers who work on the. border of Syria fighting captagon as it. comes through and they told me just. crazy ways that people get the drug over. so uh a lot of times the government.

because it's all controlled by the. government by the way will hire Farmers. like Shepherds and have them store the. pills in the stomachs of sheep so. they'll open the stomach of the sheep. put the drugs in in a bag sow the. Sheep's stomach and then have them just. move across the border in the night so. if you're looking at them as a. intelligence officer or the Army you're. going oh it's just a Shepherd no it. turns out that actually they're drug. smugglers and so these sheep are still. alive yeah they're still alive.

and they just put in some sort of a bag. that doesn't get broken down by the. stomach acids yeah exactly wow that's. crazy so there's surgery on the sheep. yeah stuff the pills in there yeah and. just walk them through wow I mean we're. talking billions of these pills. circulating in the Middle East wow and. but if it's the government that's moving. them in the Syrian government yeah so. Syria is effectively a narco State now. so most of their uh they make some crazy. amount more money producing capagon than. they do all their legal exports combined.

so what happens is that after the. country fell. they took over the pharmaceutical plans. and the pills are all pumped out there. now and it's all controlled most of it. is controlled by What's called the. fourth division which is sort of akin to. our sort of Navy SEALs like this really. Elite military unit controls it all and. also like Hezbollah which is a been. named a terror organization that's. involved in the trade too. um.

eventually we get this meeting. with the guy who's the head of. Psychiatry for all of Iraq and basically. what happens is I'm able to I'm in the. country going okay like nothing is. really this guy's just piecing together. these kind of meetings as we go and I. track down a guy who's a journalist in. the country and I kind of tell my. situation he goes you know call this guy. so my fixer calls the head of Psychiatry. and the guy tells them immediately you. know just text me whatever so okay he.

starts taxing with him. and my fixers to start smiling and goes. he'll take a meeting. but he thinks I'm another person with. the with the same name but he'll take. the meeting I'm like wait so he thinks. we're someone else and we're going to. this meeting and my fixer's like yeah. I'm like I don't know man he goes listen. he'll talk he will talk so we. go to this damn meeting. and you know we come in and the guy's. kind of looking at us like you're not. who I expected. but we sit down with them and I get him.

to set first he's kind of trying to shoe. us out you know but I get him to start. talking to us and he echoed sort of the. same that we've been talking about he. goes look like the the brain disease. model and this complex Neuroscience. around. drug addiction is interesting obviously. the brain changes due to drugs but the. question is whether those changes. obliterate all ability to make choice. and to change because that's sort of. what the government of the US sort of.

claims when you look at nida's website. it's all on the brain disease model it. says that drug addiction is this. recurring disease basically if you have. it you're going to relapse et cetera et. cetera. and he really talked about how it is a. Confluence of. a population who's in pain no way to get. out of the pain and the substance that. solves the problem in the short term so. people are who are addicted to drugs. they're making a very rational decision.

to use those drugs because it is solving. a problem right there's if you are a. addicted person. and heroin solves your problem or having. a drink solves your issues you face. well you're making a rational decision. but the problem is that the the problems. are piling up in the long term yeah. interesting so what was your uh. addiction alcohol yep so I haven't drank. for nine years and I mean I just found. yourself like wanting a drink to solve.

problems to escape yeah it was Escape. I've had to think about that a lot. especially as I wrote the chapter and I. think you know there's a lot of you see. a lot of different stuff for why do. people have an addiction. and I think the reality is is that. there's not just one reason there's a. lot of reasons out there different. people use for different reasons to. access. for me so for example. um you know one I can't remember there's. one thinker out there who basically says. the opposite of addiction is connection. that people who are addicted don't have.

social connections and I can tell you. for me that wasn't true at all I had. plenty of friends I felt connected I. found that for me I had at the time I. was working in this job that was rather. boring. um I had a lot of sort of bound up. energy and I like new uh sort of extreme. experiences. and I could find that through alcohol. so if I drank I could be wild and free. in a world that is increasingly orderly. and sanitary right it's like I'm gonna.

be I'm gonna be on my game all the time. but the moment I start drinking. it's a game like you know the world. opens up yeah and I can be I can be who. I want to be and sort of really let. loose and who the hell knows what's. going to happen tonight that's the. comedian lifestyle that's it that's. interesting yeah a lot of comedians get. addicted to alcohol yeah yeah you know. because obviously you're in a bar almost. every night and a lot of guys like a. drink or two before they go on stage. then afterwards hey let's meet down at. the bar and then people are handing out.

shots and then you know. you're at some [ __ ] dingy hole in the. wall at two o'clock in the morning. laughing and having a good time and then. you know it's this constant cycle and. you think you need that to enjoy. yourself exactly yeah and so for me I. think. getting sober it was one I had to. realize that it wasn't going to be easy. it's not going to be easy no matter who. you are. but it is necessary I mean I really do. think that I would have died early had I.

not gotten sober I mean it was you know. pretty bad at times. and so I have a lot of empathy. for people who are addicted because I. understand that you know there's this. great. um in Dante's Inferno the book he. describes Satan as. living in a world of cold and ice so. hell as he pictures it is cold and nice. and now Satan is in Hell which is cold. and he's stuck up to ice to his waist.

and in order to. do anything in his life he's always had. to Flap his wings that's how we get. that's how he gets places. but he doesn't realize that as he's. stuck by flapping his wings the ice is. just getting colder and colder and. colder and getting it more stuck. and that's what addiction is like so. you've done this thing it worked for you. for a very long time improve your life. and then it started causing your. problems but it is still this Behavior. you've learned. that has the potential to solve all your.

problems and you still think that it's. going to do do the thing that's going to. improve your life but the problem is you. can't see that because it's like that's. just what you've always done but what. about the genetic component because. there are people that seem to be more. genetically predisposed to alcoholism. yeah I think that that I think there. definitely is a genetic component to a. point it's kind of like. it's kind of like with food right. right genetics slows the gun and then. your environment pulls the trigger.

um so I think there I mean both of my. parents for example are. um my mom has been in recovery for a. long time my dad I don't know I've met. him maybe one time and I've you know. why I can only assume it's because you. didn't get sober. um and so I think that's part of it but. then also you go okay well. there's the genetic component but also. you know growing up in a single parent. household and my mom had to travel for. work a lot so there's a lot of there's a. lot of things underlying the surface and.

you go you know why why is it that. and I don't think this is just for. people who. um. have a drinking or drug problem I think. there's a lot of things it's like why is. the thing that makes you feel like. that's it that likes all of my problems. I feel better right now like why is it. the thing that it is for some people. it's food yeah for some people it's. gambling yeah for some people it's. literally getting super hooked on. working really hard just being a.

workaholic for others it could even be a. behavior that Society doesn't reject. like exercise right it becomes an escape. from problems and a way to deal with. life hold that thought I gotta pee yeah. and we're back. ah much better yeah this is the thing. you can't concentrate when you have to. pee you're sitting there going I can't. get the words out hey man I don't even. know what I just said the last 30.

minutes uh we were talking about. um alcoholism and drug addiction and. whether or not it's a mental disease and. this uh crazy drug in Iraq yeah. yeah I think it's um it's wild that I've. never even heard of that before. the amount of capital cans that we just. gone the amount of pills circulating the. Middle East is that what it looks like. do they have any images of it coming out. of sheep guts I look for that I mean. lots of different ways apparently yeah. it's got those okay so you see the photo. that we're on there it's got those two.

crescent moons they all tend to have. that on them and it's just a mix-up so. it started in the 60s as a legal. um pharmaceutical drug and I think they. banned it in the 70s or it might have. been that yeah I think mid 70s because. it worked too well people were getting. hooked on it and it was. um yeah and then uh what had happened is. that enough people especially in the. Middle East were using it as a. pharmaceutical that some drug gangs came.

in and started making it themselves and. now it's just slowly transitioned where. Syria runs it all. the wild one in America that's legal is. Adderall yeah so we have we have. billions of pills circulating as well I. know so many people that use Adderall. they use Adderall for productivity they. use Adderall as a journalist it helps. them write these Adderall to function. yeah I know a lot of people that take. that stuff and we we googled it once.

what's the number Jamie what was it like. 39 million prescriptions a year I've. heard one in eight people are on some. sort of. attention enhancing stimulant well we. are we're on coffee yeah exactly we. can't be Hypocrites we're on coffee and. I I've got a Zen in my mouth. that goes back as like people yeah I'm a. liar people. I'm [ __ ] fraud I'm over here enhanced. and plus I smoke pot well that's not but. it is a little bit whopping 41.

41.4 million Adderall prescriptions were. dispensed in the US in 2021 up more than. 10 percent from 2020 and what is 2023. is it keep going yeah so I think one of. the the real big issue that we're facing. is I don't know necessarily if addiction. is climbing or not what I do know is. that our drugs are stronger and cheaper. than ever and many of them have uh stuff. added to them that makes them much more.

dangerous so you see the overdose death. rate go up significantly as fentanyl. start starts to get added to different. drugs right but that you know I've had. this conversation I had this. conversation recently with Alex Berenson. and we were discussing whether or not. drugs should be legal right because if. drugs were legal then you could get pure. cocaine and pure heroin you wouldn't. have to worry about it being you know. laced with fentanyl maybe less people. would die. but then we both agreed that that would.

at least for a while. create a new problem where many more. people would use it because it's legal. and how many more of those people would. get addicted that wouldn't have gotten. addicted because they wouldn't have. bought it illegally right yeah that's. super great question I don't know so. it's like it's really an answer it's. very similar to the alcohol prohibition. dilemma that they faced in the 1920s. right. um during the the prohibition time the.

only way to get alcohol was you got to. get alcohol from Bootleggers right and. so that's uh I thought you saw drinking. rice too I think part of it. um. goes back to sort of that Loop idea that. I was telling you about in the sense. that unpredictable rewards tend to hook. people more than predictable rewards so. when you think of illegal drugs it um. you don't know if you're going to get. them you don't know how strong they're. going to be you don't know who you're.

going to get them from you don't know if. you're going to get in trouble and so. there's all these up in the airs that. make that search for drugs I think uh. more compelling than if a drug is legal. right yeah yeah I mean if you look at. the places where they have the least. amount of drugs they probably have. really high. crimes like very high punishments yeah. Singapore right right I don't think. that's good either no because we can't. control I mean Singapore is an island. right they'll kill you if they catch you.

with marijuana which is insane which is. wild yeah. terrifying but it definitely will keep. you from doing marijuana if you don't. want to [ __ ] die you don't want to. get locked in a jail and get beheaded or. whatever they do to you yeah and you so. much harder to get yeah too because. right because the penalty for smuggling. it in is death too yeah yeah and it's. all coming you know. there's only so many entry points into. the country and they all are either by. boat or by plane so it's either coming. through the ports or the airports. imagine trying to score in Singapore.

just the [ __ ] fear involved in that. yeah oh my god well for some people. that's the extra Rush oh it is it is yes. it's doing the thing that's illegal the. naughty thing right I'm gonna go get me. some forbidden fruit exactly get me some. forbidden marijuana. forbidden fruit tastes better than. normal fruit that's for sure and you see. that in in behavior for sure I mean so. drinking Rose during prohibition and. partly because of the forbidden fruit.

effect and we still even celebrate that. today with NASCAR I mean that sport. evolved naturally out of people souping. up their cars to drive them to drive. whiskey places yeah yeah we've talked. about that before it's amazing it's kind. of crazy right that it's like one of our. national pastimes and it came out of. drug running totally yeah man. um. so it's I mean it's a fascinating it's a. complicated topic. um. I wonder if that'll be the case in the.

future if drugs become legal if they'll. have like submarine races from like. Columbia to America. because that's the wildest one when the. de agents DEA agents jump on top of. these [ __ ] submarines and they're. banging on the roof like stop it open up. we're here have you seen those uh you've. seen those videos I haven't seen the. videos actually I've heard of God those. guys are wild really those DEA agents. are [ __ ] wild whether it's Coast. Guard or DEA whoever those federal. agents are that jump on top of [ __ ].

submarines see if you can find it Jamie. God it's crazy because this [ __ ]. submarine is shooting across the water. and these guys jump on top of this. goddamn thing and they're banging on the. door holy hell where did they get the. submarines Russia good question probably. like where do you buy a submarine like. if you and I go okay we're going to get. a submarine like who the hell do we call. uh here it is look at this. this [ __ ] dude is like this banging. on top of the door open up [ __ ].

on a submarine jumping on top of a. [ __ ] submarine drug submarine bust 12. 000 pounds of cocaine seized jeez how. big of an industry that is yeah it's a. giant industry now here's the question I. mean is that. is the solution legalizing it you know. and this is the conversation again that. I had with Barrington we're both like. boy I don't know I mean I am all for. Freedom I'm all for people being free to. choose to do whatever they want to do. and then we deal with the consequences.

but is that you know what if your child. dies of a [ __ ] heroin overdose. because heroin's legal totally you know. what are you gonna say to that person. hey man Freedom you know what are you. gonna say like no you're not gonna say. but then again what if your child dies. of an overdose because they thought they. were just getting you know some Valium. or something like that and it actually. turned out to be Fentanyl yeah that's. the that's it's so tricky and I I do. think that you start to see the deaths. go up when you don't know what you're.

getting yes yeah and then there's also. the reality that certain cartels will. poison. um certain they would literally do that. to put other cartels out of business. right so they'll if one cartel has like. a grip on one area they'll they'll. release poison you know like literally. on purpose tainted cocaine so that this. cartel goes out of business or they get. attacked and it's like. oh. yeah I do think that there is more hope.

for people than we often might think. um a interesting stat that I read is. that one in 10 Americans have report. having gotten over a substance abuse. issue in their lifetime. 50 of them got over it on their own so. what tends to happen in a lot of the big. government studies where like the you. know the numbers are diet very dire once. you're hooked on a substance it's very. very hard to quit. they tend to look at some of the worst.

cases not some of the more. um you know average cases and then those. more average cases. the the odds of recovery are a lot. higher and I think a lot of it has to do. with uh. a lot of times we age out as as simple. and strange as that sounds you tend to. see addiction spike in people who are. about 15 to 25 that's because of the way. the brain is changing during that time. so risk is something that we naturally.

get drawn to we're looking for social. connection and we're also looking for. how we find comfort and meaning in the. world and so if you introduce a. substance that does those things for. people at that age we're more likely to. sort of learn using that substance as. something that enhances our lives but. once you start to age out over time. people generally find other things that. provide whatever the drug was providing. for them and are able to get off it well. also hopefully with age comes wisdom and.

with a bunch of negative experiences you. you know there's the term reaching Rock. Bottom that's with a lot of addicts they. have to hit the bottom when they go I. have to [ __ ] do something yeah I mean. we've all known people. that you know you go hey man you got to. stop drinking and they don't want to do. it and they don't no matter if you drag. them to a rehab they'll start drinking. when they get out right they just can't. stop themselves it's like for whatever. reason they haven't hit rock bottom or. they haven't decided that their life is.

so [ __ ] up with with this stuff that. they'd be better off without it I think. one of the great benefits to people like. yourself. is it someone who has gone through that. can now talk about it and they go oh. well look at this Michael Easter is a. very smart guy like how did he get okay. he's. he's just like me and he did it I can do. it too he's smart he's not some fool. he's he's a guy who recognizes why he. got trapped in this terrible cycle of.

behavior and thinking yeah and he got. out of it I can get out of it too and. I'll tell you that once you get out of. it so if uh if addiction is if you think. of addiction as persistence against. negative consequences. well applied to drugs and alcohol that's. a bad thing applied to a lot of other. things that is the ultimate life hack. right right the ability to focus like I. write books. writing a book is a lot of sitting in an. office in the dark very early and having. to Wade through studies having to figure.

out how do I put together this narrative. it is oftentimes frustrating as hell. there is a lot of negative short-term. consequences but you could almost argue. and I've thought about this a lot that. my persistence against negative. consequences with drinking has carried. over into this other part of my life. where it is actually creating long-term. benefits. so that's a message that I like to tell. people too it's like if you can get over. this you can apply your your crazy brain. yeah crazy behaviors to something that. will enhance your life and that makes.

you pretty damn Unstoppable. unfortunately the opposite exists as. well particularly with athletes I I see. that in a lot of Fighters and even in. other athletes they are addicted to. success they're they're they are like. single-minded in their pursuit of. Excellence. to the point where it overwhelms all the. other aspects of their life all they. care about is winning they want to win. win win win win and then they can't do.

it anymore and that's gone and they need. something else and some of them get. addicted to I knew a guy who was a Top. Flight pool player like a real. World Championship caliber pool player. and um. I knew him really well and he was clean. and sober didn't smoke cigarettes didn't. do anything and then he was in a car. accident. and when he was in a car accident he. hurt his back and when he hurt his back. he couldn't play pool and they started. giving him pills and the same thing that.

made him addicted to Excellence in pool. now transferred over to Pills and so now. he was addicted to Pills and he just. couldn't stop taking them. he had this wiring in his brain that was. now filled with pills like he had a hole. and that pills like we'll take that spot. yeah and the pills took that spot and he. wound up dying of an overdose jeez and. before he died like. my friend told me that one time they.

were all at a diner and he fell asleep. in his food he literally like tipped. forward and his face went into his food. into his plate just fell asleep and this. guy was Mr clean and sober what pool. halls are filled with degenerates and. all these people that are drinking and. gambling and doing drugs and they're. these wild outcasts of society like and. this guy was the opposite this guy was. I'm not going to fall into that trap I'm. going to be the best and he would you. know eat clean and drink water and you.

know and and he was like super [ __ ]. he would dress clean and and play really. well and he was one of the best players. in the world. and uh. ultimately the drugs got him I mean he. hurt his back really badly he had to get. surgery in his back and they gave him. these [ __ ] oxies and he just went. down that road and then died. I mean that's you know. yeah it's terrible it happens to a lot. of athletes man a lot of Fighters.

um it's that they they lose this thing. that sort of gave them meaning and then. they got to find. a different thing they gave them an. identity and gave them Thrills the. thrill of a fight is the craziest Thrill. The Thrill that knowing that this is. going to be this one event that you're. preparing for so you're preparing for. weeks and weeks and weeks for this one. thing and either it's the greatest. experience of your life when you win or. it's the worst feeling in the world if. you lose if it's the worst feeling in.

the world then you go back to the. drawing board and you want to figure out. how to get that great feeling again you. want to figure out how to achieve. excellence and if you can get there if. you can get back to Excellence again. then you want to get it even further and. further then you want to be the best you. want to be the champion you want to be. the number one and then when you're. number one it's like how long can I hold. on to this I'm 34. you know my body's. starting to give out my [ __ ] knees. are going you know oh my back hurts now. I got a pinched nerve in my neck I gotta. get a [ __ ] epidural so I can compete. and. you know and then they wind up breaking. their body down and then we had Kurt.

Angle on the podcast uh Kurt Angle who. was an Olympic gold medalist in uh in. the heavyweight division okay the cutoff. to the heavyweight division is 198. he. weighed 199. and he's like I'm so good I. don't need to cut weight I'm so. disciplined and so good and he beat guys. that were like 260 270 pounds wow he won. the Olympics with a broken neck he broke. his neck in the Olympic trials broke his. neck rehabbed it somewhat and got a.

bunch of [ __ ] novocaine shots in his. neck so that he could compete went on to. win the [ __ ] Olympics with a broken. neck so think about the amount of mental. strength that this guy has yeah and then. broke his neck five more times doing pro. wrestling shoes and and and performed. with a broken neck and then the pills. right the pills got them and then um he. eventually got free of them and you know.

he talked about it and talked about the. journey he was just on it was an amazing. conversation because you're talking. about a guy who's literally as mentally. strong as the the smallest number of. people that have ever lived right you. know like the [ __ ] point zero zero. zero one of human beings the discipline. the drive the will the focus the. strength the grit you know wrestlers. Above and Beyond in amateur Athletics. are some of the toughest human beings. ever because it's all for Glory there's.

literally no money in it there's no. money in wrestling there's no like if. you win the gold medal you can go on and. play for the professional you know. wrestling league like if you win a gold. medal in you know like basketball well. hey you can go and play in the NBA yeah. if you win a gold medal in many sports. there's a professional Outlet there's. literally no professional Outlet other. than the entertainment Outlet which is. what he went into or professional mixed. martial arts which is a different skill. set you have to learn other things.

so you're talking about an insanely. powerful person and he got caught in it. yeah I mean it can it hits anybody and. everyone anybody and everything we have. this idea that a person who's addicted. is you know the person you see on the. street like that woman that you. mentioned yeah it's not it's it's it can. hit anyone. um for all different sorts of reasons. but I think the upside is that. it isn't a guarantee that you're not. going to get clean or anything like that. like there are.

there are paths out of it yeah and they. look different for every single person. right so I had a guy who helped me get. sober and um I was asking like you know. what. what do what do people need you know he. goes well sometimes people need a pat on. the back and sometimes they need a. little bit of a kick in the ass right. it's like everyone needs something right. and what's going to work for one person. isn't necessarily going to work for. another person isn't necessarily going. to work for another person but I do. think that the commonality you find is. that it takes action it's not going to.

be easy. and you have to find something that. gives you uh that replaces the hole so. in the case of your friend it's like. there was the you know the wrestling was. that was the life that went away it got. filled with whatever the you know the. drug of choices. okay now we got to drain that we got to. put something else in there yeah because. if nothing changes nothing changes right. yeah that's what they say like get. addicted to something good like learn. how to play golf or something get. addicted to something that's productive.

yeah it could be exercise. yeah it could be some of you know there. there's all sorts of ways people recover. there really are and I think that you. know something like 12-step programs. they really help a lot of people. um they're not for everyone though and. so if you know if you're a person who's. suffering and that just didn't seem to. work for you I would suggest you know. try something else how'd you do it. um I went through a program of people. who were like-minded and helped me deal. with my underlying issues and sort of.

gave me counseling and I think that. helped me start to peel the layers it's. not something I'm super active in now. um but it a lot of it did come down to. figuring out okay well why am I doing. this thing in the first place. how have I replaced it. um whatever I was chasing can I get that. in a different kind of Chase. you know yeah so for because I like uh. sort of extreme. experiences sort of exploring the edges. intense living I mean.

okay Backcountry hunting let's go let's. go in the woods for like a week right. that's like pretty extreme yeah extreme. uh or even exercise I think gives me a. lot of that a lot of the travels I do. you know there's a reason that. I could have gone and investigated drugs. in say Ohio. why the hell did I go to Iraq right. because I kind of need that you want an. extreme experience yeah yeah and it's. you know.

the hunting one is very valuable for. veterans yes a lot of veterans they they. leave that world and they're very lost. and they they need something that helps. them and for many of them hunting fills. that void because it's so difficult. yeah and I'm sure a lot of people. listening to this that are have an. aversion to that idea of hunting and. that they think it's cruel and. I get how they wouldn't understand that. unfortunately a lot of those people also. eat meat and you know if you eat meat or.

if you even eat vegetables unfortunately. that's the the real sucky reality is. then unless you grow all of your own. food organically and you know exactly. what you're doing and you eat vegetables. that you grow yourself. if you're getting food from monocrop. agriculture you're 100 contributing to. the loss of life and not just one life. but do you think that a frog is as. important as an elk do you think that a. ground nesting bird is as important as.

an elk because if I shoot an elk I eat. that elk for months yeah if if you buy a. bushel of corn there are a lot of deaths. attached to that in insects because of. pesticides and. fawns and these things that get ground. up in in combines when they're they're. rolling over the fields like there's a a. crazy video that I saw of these uh these. uh grain combines that are rolling. across this field and they hit this. patch and you see all these deer just.

scatter out of there barely barely. making it out alive yeah geez how's this. thing is running them over that's crazy. yeah rabbits all sorts of things get. killed in that and you know you could. say that that's also the cycle of life. and that that most certainly doesn't go. to waste because something will eat. those birds or the birds will eat those. those Dead Rabbits you know the vultures. and. and coyotes and all these animals that. do get killed in the cultivation of.

grain they will feed Wildlife nothing. goes to waste in the wild you know. that's the thing like even if you like. say if you're hunting and you shoot an. animal and it runs into the forest and. you can't bind it and you go oh my god. I've killed something for no reason well. believe me something's going to find. that thing right it's it's gonna get. eaten it's like there's nothing that. goes to waste in the wild zero things go. to waste they will find it they will. smell it they will get to it they will. eat it they'll consume it down to the.

bones you see it over and over and over. again yeah yeah I was mentioning that. that scarcity loop system that tends to. draw people in and sort of people tend. to get hooked on. well I mentioned how it evolved from. hunting and Gathering. so you can also find activities that. fall into that that enhance your life in. the process hunting great example. because as you're falling into that. random okay it's you have an opportunity. to find an animal. you don't know where it's going to be. you don't know how big you don't know.

anything about what that experience is. going to like how it's all going to. unfold and then when it does unfold it's. like oh my God that was amazing right. and then you can do that again the next. year it's also people think it's easy. and you've experienced it it's not easy. it's not easy at all no it's so hard. especially with the bow and arrow or the. bow and arrow it's insanely hard it. requires incredible amounts of. discipline and practice even but even. with a rifle I mean if you're especially. if you're on public land it is so. difficult to to get an animal it's so.

difficult and depending upon what you're. doing unless you're like pig hunting in. Texas you could you get a pig in Texas. and they want you to do that obviously. because they're invasive species but. it's people have this idea that you're. going out there with this high-powered. scope and a rifle and just easily taking. out some animal and then you know you'll. see it online when someone will post a. picture of an animal like what if that. animal's armed this isn't fair you know. you should use a spear or you know you.

should go run up to it and stab it you. think you you're a real killer go do it. with your teeth you know like it's you. see a lot of like ridiculous. perspectives and I kind of I know where. they're coming from I see where they're. coming from they think of it as a. cruelty thing but it's because they. haven't experienced it I think if they. went and they saw how hard it is just. like you're trekking through the. mountains eight ten out 10 miles a day. it's exhausting you're burning thousands. of calories you're going up and down in. elevation you have to be in great shape. and you could easily go 10 11 days and.

come home empty-handed and eat tag soup. it happens more than it doesn't yeah. yeah exactly and people. people get greater rewards from things. that are harder to get yes that's what. we ultimately find if I if I say give. someone a check for a million dollars. it's great but they would value that so. much more if they had to build a. business or something that earned it yes. right oh yeah and I think that goes back.

to a lot of I mean I think a lot of why. we are the way we are and what we value. goes back to uh Evolution and so that. psychologist I was telling you about. earlier uh is Thomas and tall he said. the reason that we get more value from. things that are harder to get is. probably because. if you had to work harder to get. something in the past that saved your. life. you want to incentivize that repeat. searching right so the harder you work. for something if you get this giant like. oh my God that was amazing right we did.

it that's going to incentivize future. persistence like winning a fight like. winning a fight yeah all the work that. goes into that right you know yeah and. so I think finding realizing that um. Improvement and finding things that you. truly value and mean something to you. are ultimately going to be a challenge. and this even this applies to marriage. this applies to I'm sure raising kids I. can't imagine that's easy it applies to. all these different things that are. important part of being a human today. knowing that you know a lot of times the.

process is the reward and the Heart of. the process probably the bigger reward. for you internally yeah I mean that's. that cliche it's all about the journey. and it is it's like you these little. moments where you have success these. these moments they're they're just a. testament to the fact that the grind is. worth it what do you how do you. what are you feeling internally when you. hunt. there's a lot going on. um don't [ __ ] it up but you can't think.

that because you'll [ __ ] it up right but. you want to make sure that you've done. everything you need to do before a hunt. I lose weight I get in really good shape. like when it comes July I start really. ramping up my cardio I start rocking I. carry kettlebells I do like Farmers. carries I do all these different things. I pull sleds just so I can more easily. manage my way through the mountains. and I put a lot of emphasis on that this. year a lot more than I did last year and.

I got in much better shape I really kept. my diet clean and I practiced every day. I was outside in the Texas heat it was. 104 degrees out I had a giant 64 ounce. or 62 ounce whatever it is 64 ounce. Hydro Flask filled with uh like liquid. IV and water so I'm just out there. hydrating in 104 degree heat just. practicing my shot over and over and. over and over and over and over and over.

and over per hour so the point where my. shoulders hurt my arm's not steady you. know to the point where I should have. probably quit four or five groups. earlier because my groups are getting a. little scattered because my arm's not. steady anymore but when I get to the. mountains I know that I've dotted all my. eyes I've crossed all my T's I'm in. great shape I have great accuracy I'm. very good I know what to do and I can do. it so it's knowing that that you've done. the preparation that's very important. this it's a terrible feeling to not feel.

confident to be doing this and not feel. confident I saw a few guys that were. like that in Camp yeah that maybe it was. their first time bow hunting elk and. they weren't really prepared and you can. tell that they weren't prepared and you. could tell that they could tell that. they weren't prepared and they weren't. successful there was uh I don't know how. many hunters in Camp with us I think. there was 30 two guys got elk with a bow. yeah why is that tough year tough year. is it because of the snow all the snow.

yeah yeah they lost a lot of deer. um I think they lost elk too but they. lost a lot of deer like in some places. some parts of the ranch they they said. they lost some like 50 of their deer one. place they lost 80 they think they lost. 80 to the winner die off yeah man it's a. [ __ ] hard world out there for those. animals yeah they're freezing to death I. pulled a tag last year for the um cash. area which is right by which is. basically within where we were at uh. Deseret and that went well and I had.

gone with a buddy whose name is Chase. Lamborn he's at uh Utah State he's a PhD. Wildlife researcher kid I went to high. school with so old buddy and then he. turns out he you know goes and gets his. super smarty pants PhD and a cool. subject so I went with him and you know. I asked him I'm like should I put in. this year again I don't know man like. Utah is kind of a mess with mule there. this year like you're not gonna get. killed yeah they all got killed off so. yeah it could be a while many years. until they bounce back the numbers they. were a few years ago but that's the.

reality that these animals live in you. know so it was tough in that respect. the numbers were a little lower than. normal. um you know it's also tough when they. have a lot of feed you know because. there was so much rain and so much. rainfall there was feed everywhere and. water everywhere so it was more. difficult predicting where they're going. to be and finding them and then you know. it's just it's [ __ ] hard it's hard to. do. a lot of trucking it's a lot of trucking. you got to be in shape and you got to be.

ready you know it's um. it's hard. but when it's over when you're. successful. there's a great feeling of relief a. great feeling of satisfaction and the. food that you get from it is the finest. animal protein that you can get yeah the. best stuff in the world for you totally. what do you feel like your your most. rewarding hunt has been. that's always the hard ones you know. it's always the difficult ones it's so.

like the desert is a hard one because. not because of density there's a lot of. animals there but it's just hard terrain. it's you know and the wind's swirling. like you have to have so many there's so. many factors. I mean there's so many times you're. getting close and then you feel the wind. to the back of your neck and you're like. [ __ ] and then you see the elk just like. pick their head up and just start. running yeah see you later hundreds of. yards away they they smell Predator. they're like folk this and you know.

that's why they're you know eight nine. years old the guy the elk I shot was 11. years old that's crazy that's wild it. was a perfect elk to shoot because his. teeth were worn out they were really. worn down and he he might have not made. it through the winter you know he was. they don't really live older than 11 you. know right in the wild like and there's. mountain lions all over the place up. there is there a lot more now they have. a lot they have a lot to the point where. Utah changed their laws. and they made mountain lion hunting all.

you have to do is just get a tag it's. not a drawing anymore yeah like and you. can shoot them like coyotes wow my mom. so I grew up in um just north of Salt. Lake City and the home I grew up in my. mom has a mountain lion that hangs out. in her backyard quite a bit because. there's some woods behind her house it's. a pretty developed area too but there. just happens to be this wooded area. where there's a park and she'll hear the. mountain lion at night having just. killed some deer because there's some. deer that live in there and they're they.

get pretty damn big around there yeah. I've seen three mountain lions in my. life and the two that I saw before the. one I saw two years ago the two that I. saw previously were very small I saw one. in Colorado. it was probably like the size of a dog. and then I saw one in Montecito we were. driving down the road and I thought what. I saw was a coyote run across the road. until I saw the tail I was like oh my. God it's a mountain lion wow this is a. brief Glimpse and again this is probably.

a 60 pound animal. two years ago we saw one that was easily. 180 pounds easily he was [ __ ] huge I. think that I think that was the hunt. that I was on too was it was yeah. because I remember you coming back oh my. god dude we just saw like and your eyes. are just sauceride I was so scared and I. was in a truck that was a crazy thing we. were we were driving down this road and. it was at dusk and as we were driving.

down this road uh my friend Colton saw. these eyes under this tree and he hits. the brace goes look at the size of that. [ __ ] cat and we looked this thing had. a pumpkin head like this big old. muscular head you know like a like a. Rottweiler has where they have this big. muscles on the side of their head bumps. all over it and these massive forearms. man his forearms were [ __ ] huge and. it was just like crouched underneath. this tree staring at us 30 yards away. crazy and I'm in the truck so I pulled.

out my binoculars so I'm looking at him. through 10 power binoculars and I'm. seeing his whole face I'm looking in his. eyes I'm seeing his body and like what. do you do if you Zig when you should. have zagged and you run into that thing. like holy [ __ ] was it big yeah you just. say well there are worse ways to die I. guess I'll take this one yeah unless you. have a pistol on you but it was it was. uh it was eye-opening because even the. pit started to change the topic but even.

the pistol thing is I mean that inserts. its own form of danger like I heard. um there was a guy last year in Wyoming. who got mauled by a grizzly and he. pulled out you know the Glock 10. millimeter just opened up the clip and. he ended up shooting himself in the. ankle oh yeah yeah a friend of a friend. and yeah ends up the bear ended up dying. you know walked off dies but he shoots. himself in the ankle it just blows his. ground and then they had to do 10 miles.

on horses to get the guy to a place. where they could Lifeline them to get oh. reception and. they Life Flight him so this was in. Wyoming they Life Flight him to. University of Utah hospital and they end. up saving the foot oh but in the process. it's you paid for that one yeah well. that's a panic moment right and you. don't even know what Panic is until you. see a [ __ ] grizzly bear yeah you know. Steve rinella. um he had had encounters with bears in. the past but he told a story and he was.

also with my friend Remy Warren who told. the story on the podcast about. um they were in a fog neck Island so a. fog Knack is like. um Alaska and so there's the coastal. brown bears so you're dealing with like. an 11 12 foot bear giant giant right. because they just eat salmon all day. exactly and they eat elk because they're. on this island hunting so. um he shot an elk and. um they're in this insanely dense area.

where it's very very difficult to pack. out so they hang the elk in a tree they. leave some of the meat they take some of. it back they go back the next morning to. get to the elk and they see some bear. [ __ ] and they don't you know they don't. think anything of it they're there the. elk is still there they think they've. got it. well some bear had claimed this elk and. they didn't know that the bear claimed. elk and they're all sitting around.

eating lunch they're they're going to. have lunch and then the kids it took. them like hours to get to this place and. then they're gonna pack out the elk and. while they're sitting there eating lunch. this [ __ ] 11 foot Bear runs at them. through the trees through the camp but. there was so many people there that the. the bear doesn't know who to attack and. just kind of runs through them and uh. one of his camera guys this guy is his.

nickname's Dartmouth Dartmouth winds up. on the Bear's back. the bear like literally plows through. these people and he's on this thing's. back for like 10 yards as it's running. and then he falls off my other friend. Giannis hits it with a trekking stick in. the base as it passes him and he said it. was literally a foot from his face this. [ __ ] gnashing enormous mouth this maw.

that would be instant death. and he said. all your ideas of what you would do in. that circumstances they're all out the. window your your Reptilian Brain. completely takes over and this is a guy. and Steve Brunello that is as. experienced a Woodsman as you will ever. find yeah he's also a brilliant guy he's. very smart and he can articulate the. experience in a way that not not that. many people can and the way he described. it was absolutely horrific just horrific.

like you just don't you don't have any. idea what what that would be like until. you encounter it and then when you. encounter it you don't ever want to see. that again yeah crazy those things are. so giant so giant you don't even. understand what it means until you're. around them and they're running because. they can run like a [ __ ] quarterback. or a like a cornerback I should say they. run [ __ ] bass is what I'm trying to. say did they hear it before they did. they just hear this coming through the I.

think they heard some noise in the woods. and they turned and it was just running. straight towards them literally like a. bus. just a bus like a Volkswagen bus with. teeth just running at you. [ __ ] man so that's something that's. literally 10 times the size of that cat. that I saw I'm [ __ ] my pants looking. at this cat through a window 30 yards. away in a truck where I'm kind of. protected. and they you know encountered this thing.

that ran through their Camp yeah well. they're going to remember that forever. they'll remember that forever absolutely. yeah it's you know there's just. the reality of nature in the wild. people that don't experience it like. someone was telling me this today I need. to know if this is true that in British. Columbia. you can't even shoot a bear in. self-defense. really yeah well they outlawed grizzly. bear hunting and which is crazy because.

the problem with a place like British. Columbia is. that the voting population all exists in. urban areas right so you have all your. people from Vancouver. it's beautiful city and you know it's. the the kind of people that live there. Urban people right they're not they. don't have any experience with Wildlife. for the most part unless they regularly. go out there so they don't even know. what they're voting on and the in this. bill comes across like should we Outlaw. a grizzly bear hunting like well no.

one's hunting a grizzly bear to feed. their family that's ridiculous like we. should Outlaw that so they outlawed. well my friend Mike who runs a guide. service in northern BC he experiences he. had a shoot a [ __ ] grizzly bear from. like three feet away from a cabin door. so this thing was trying to break into a. cabin and you know shoot it like as it. was coming to the cabin door. like these are terrifying animals yeah. they'll break into houses terrified and. there's also wolves up there like packs.

of wolves that'll take out a horse every. now and then so you like you hear some. crazy noise you look out the window and. there's a pack of wolves mauling one of. your horses. the the wild that those people exist in. it is so alien to anyone that lives in. an urban environment that they they pass. these laws and they don't even know what. they're voting on they don't understand. right they should literally be forced to. go out there and camp in the wilderness. and encounter Grizzlies and understand. the population there's a lot of them. it's not a small number they're not.

endangered by any stretch of the. imagination grizzly bears are thriving. up there yeah and when you're not. hunting them now they're not afraid of. people anymore so at least when they. were hunted they'd smell people and they. go oh I equate the smell of people to. someone hunting me I'm gonna get out of. here now they don't avoid people at all. in fact they say they come to gunfire. because they hear gunfire and they think. it's a down deer and they go to steal. that deer from the hunter yeah so they. hear a gun and they run towards where.

the gun is going to the gunfire. well and once you I mean so the whole. point of the vote is that people. perceive that they're limiting suffering. yes right. um but once you get populations big. enough then you start to have problems. with how much food they can access. there's going to be infighting between. them so yes you're going to get. suffering on on the back end and then. they go into ranchers and they start. attacking cattle and they start it. becomes a giant as soon as they're not. threatened by people at all they become. very [ __ ] dangerous yeah see if.

that's true you can't you can't shoot. them even in self-defense. I can't find anything that says that I. found a case where a guy claims. self-defense but the judge said that. didn't sound like self-defense because. he went back inside to grab his arrows. oh that's the only thing I could find. out was even close to it I'm [ __ ]. harder but I can't find it that could. still be self-defense. because you go back inside the gravity. if you have to get out and it's there. and now you have arrows on you.

it's kind of like what's happened on. Maui with the axis deer right there's. just so damn many yeah except they're. not dangerous yeah yeah exactly and you. can eat them and you know they've got. Maui Nui venison which is a company. that's uh really done an amazing thing. where they they hunt them they have a. USDA uh processing facility on the ranch. and you can buy Wild game from Maui so. you're helping control this invasive. population you're getting this. incredible delicious Protein that's uh. that's actually necessary to shoot them.

because they don't have any Predators. yeah they don't have predators and the. way that they're shooting them too is. about as ethical as you can get I mean. they're shooting them as I understand it. in the middle of the night and just like. right in the head like bam they're done. yep yep yeah they're using yeah and they. process it like I said with the USDA. facility so you know that you're getting. you know it's it's all clean and safe. and it's all done correctly and. sanitarily and you know you can get the.

best protein that you can get and it. helps them because like Lanai is crazy. when we were in Lanai Lanai has 3 000. people this gorgeous Island and it has. 30 000 deer. and you can't imagine the numbers when. you're Dr we drove. at night time and. um we hit the high beams and you just. see eyeballs yeah as far as the eye can. see I mean you're looking at thousands. and thousands and thousands of deer just.

in one field. just eating everything that they can and. they hunt those at night too they hunt. those with snipers they do everything. they can do it's great for the. population because everybody there eats. well they all they all have great food. they all have great venison but it's. just so unnatural yeah and I guess they. were a gift they were a gift to King. Kamehameha right yeah and then they just. overpopulated the island yeah how do you. feel like when you train this year how.

did you feel rocking helped you. well um. it anything where you're carrying weight. and you're going like one of the things. that I did quite a bit is um uh 30. incline on a um I have a real good. treadmill 30 incline and put a weight. vest on that's awesome yeah and just. watch a movie and [ __ ] grind oh yeah. that's the Pack meal workout dude. my feet my calves were killing me. um it's hard man it's hard another thing.

I did a lot of is the Echo Bike you know. it's like an assault bike with a Rogue. bike that one helped me a lot intervals. yeah tabatas okay yeah so I do these 20. second Sprints 10 second rest 20 second. Sprints and you do it a cycle of eight. and I would do that at the end of my. workout so do all I start off every. workout with a cold plunge I do a cold. plunge for three minutes then I do my. series of body weight exercises to warm. myself up every day I do 100 push-ups. and 100 body weight squats on a slant.

board so I do those and then by that. time I'm warmed up and then. um generally I do most days I do. um. Nordic curls so I have a Nordic bench so. I hook my heels into this thing and then. I lift myself up with my hamstrings. that's a hard exercise it's hard yeah so. I do reps with that. and I'll do three sets of uh six or. seven. um now I'm up to seven.

um seven reps I want to make sure that I. don't blow something out you know. because it is hard to do it's like. you're going yeah it's not a it's not. like a body weight squat like I can do. 20 body weight squats easy so I do sets. of five five sets of 20 rather you know. so I that's how I get my hundred in but. the the nordics I take a a good amount. of time in between yeah like I'll do it. and then I'll do like a good five minute. rest before I attempt the second set. maybe even 10 minutes sometimes yeah.

so I do those and then I generally do. kettlebell routines. or I do I have a series of body weight. series that I do or I do 10 chin UPS 20. 20 dips and 10 L chin UPS or N Pull L. Pull-Ups so it's close grip where my. feet are extended out in front of me. yeah and I'm doing these and I do sets. of ten of those and I'll do a circuit of. five so five of those so I do you know. um so it's 50 chin UPS 100 dips and 50.

Pull-Ups so it all winds up to be a. hundred and a hundred yeah and so I do. that and then. um generally either I'll do. um neck exercises or core exercises like. I'll do the iron neck and I'll do. um. you know those hip glute ham machines. where you you can do a sit-up where. you're like way low oh yeah yeah I do. sets of 20 of those. and then I do back extensions the.

opposite I flip it around and then I. have a sore next one that actually. doubles as a reverse hyper and so then I. do my reverse hypers and then uh I. stretch out and then you know I stretch. my back out because it's a lot of back. you know it's a lot of compression there. it feels like everything's tight and so. I you know relax and stretch that out. and then generally I'll do my sprints on. the air dime machine and depending upon. how hard the workout is I usually do. four or five rounds of tabatas so you.

know you're doing eight eight Sprints. each round eight Sprints with eight. rests then I'll recover I get my I wear. a heart rate monitor I get my heart rate. down to about 100 and then I get back on. it again and I do another one and I get. it back down to 100 do it again. and depending upon the workout like if. I'm just doing that I'll do 10. I'll do. 10 reps so 10 10 series of eight yeah. and but if I'm doing all that other.

stuff first I'm so beat up by the time I. get to that that'll do four or maybe. I'll push myself to do five and then I'm. immediately go into the sauna so my. cardio is still banging because it's. like I'm I'm going into the song on my. I'm already 130 beats per minute right. off stepping right off the assault bike. yeah and it's 185 degrees in the sauna. and that's sitting there for 20 minutes. yeah right on that'll do it yeah it. [ __ ] you up but but it gets you in. tremendous shape it really does and if. if I'm and I was consistent with that.

and it made a big difference in the. mountains I really knew because you know. obviously this is sea level it's like. almost altitude here it's like [ __ ]. 191 feet it's nothing and in Utah we. were at eight thousand eight thousand. yeah so you have to be in shape there's. no other way to cut either you live up. there and you [ __ ] hike those Hills. all the time or you prepare yourself. yeah so that's what I did I feel like. the the slow grind of rocking is awesome. for cardio and then you just pair that.

with to what you're talking about which. is that high intensity you hit both. those systems and that's kind of the. secret sauce to me a lot of what I think. about too with hunting is how can I. resist injury if you roll an ankle or. something out there or whatever it might. be I mean that can blow the whole thing. for you so I also do a ton of durability. work like just getting my ankles like. real tight and resistant to Falls. getting my knees nice and locked down. and then the question just becomes okay. can I cover ground while bearing load.

for an entire day and if the answer is. yes like all right I feel pretty solid. right and can I handle a pack out if I. have a heavy pack out so I have one of. those treadmills too that goes out a. pretty good incline and I'll throw you. know maybe 100 pounds in a Ruck or. something and just slow grind for a. while and it's just the worst but you. get it done and you're like all right. one of the most satisfying things about. the hunt was that I had to pack out I. had to carry these Quarters on my. shoulder and make it up this wet slope. so it's like very Steep and it's pouring.

rain out and everything's wet you're. stepping over wet logs and I'm carrying. this quarter which probably weighs 80. pounds on my shoulder and I'm climbing. over stuff and but you know I like I. slipped but caught myself so I have the. balance to catch myself it was all just. confirmation that I had done the work. yeah it was very nice yeah it felt great. that I didn't have to feel like like I. was under prepared yeah yeah totally.

yeah right on man good times up but. again it makes you want to get right. back to it like as soon as it's over. you're like okay don't slack off don't. get [ __ ] fat now stupid. you know like don't get out of shape. because now I have a good base so I have. to keep it going well that's a great I. mean it's a good Pursuit because once a. year you are gonna have to get in shape. too which I mean you probably keep. yourself in shape generally but a lot of. people that's the thing that pushes them. they need you need an activity right A. lot of people aren't just going to get. in shape just to get in shape there. needs to be some greater reason greater.

why behind it yeah and finding that I. think can be transformative for people. yeah you have a goal instead of just. saying I'm going to be in great shape. like why right like what you're not. going to use it but if you have a thing. that you know you're going to do in. September that's [ __ ] really hard to. do and I really worked hard this year. like I I came into like July in great. shape already so I was able to do it I. really never slacked off the whole year. so it made it just it makes a difference. also diet yeah I cut out all the. [ __ ] I cut out all the [ __ ] I. lost 10 pounds I I basically am on the.

carnivore diet that's basically what I'm. eating and uh pretty strict and made a. giant difference I think that cutting. out of the [ __ ] is the most. important thing for people so part of. the book I found this tribe that has the. healthiest Hearts ever recorded by. science they're called the chimane tribe. and uh they're in the Bolivian Amazon so. I go down and visit them in Bolivia so I. gotta fly into La Paz which is like 13. 000 feet and I was supposed to take a.

small plane down which is a half an hour. but the airline goes belly up like the. day before I'm supposed to get there. right so we got to take this 12 hour car. ride down to the Jungle then you take a. six hour canoe ride up into the jungle. and it's all just a wall of green right. you're going it all looks the same and. it has for the last six hours and then. eventually the you know the guy the. canoe guy just goes up a bank and you're. like how the hell do you know this is. the place it's like no trust me so we. get out and you know there's the tribe.

and um the real Difference Maker. their diet generally. at some point across the day it's gonna. break like every popular diet that we've. been given in the last you know 40 years. like they eat some sugar they eat some. chocolate they eat red meat they eat. fish they eat white rice they eat white. potatoes it's not low-fat it's not low. carb it's not right it's at some point. it's going to offend someone they ate. corn.

but the real Difference Maker is to your. point about [ __ ] it's all one. ingredient. right it's all just having one. ingredient and they're not eating super. processed food it's just real food it's. just real food it's real food and. meanwhile in the U.S. um I think something like 60 of the food. the average American eats is ultra. processed. and. so back to the the scarcity Loop idea I. told you about. um there's this quote from a guy who's. with the food industry. he said if you want to make a food so.

people overeat it over consume it it's. got to have three V's it's got to have. value it's got to have variety and it's. got to have velocity now that is just a. different way of explaining what I just. laid out right it's like the value has. got to be relatively cheap it's got to. give you something. um variety you got to have a lot of. different flavors not only within the. food itself so this mix of sugar salt. fat whatever it might be but also a lot. of different varieties of junk foods. like you go to the supermarket and.

there's like 45 different Doritos right. and then velocity you have to eat it. fast and so when scientists will put. people in a lab and have them eat one. diet that is on basically unprocessed. very minimally processed versus an ultra. processed diet where everything else is. matched this is an NIH study the people. who eat the ultra processed diet end up. eating 500 more calories a day just by. the fact that they eat it much faster.

yeah and you don't get those natural. breaks with that you would with. natural food that are telling you oh. okay you're full because it's taking up. more room in your stomach I mean think. of a boiled potato versus potato chips. one ounce of a boiled potato might be 50. calories vitamins minerals whatever one. ounce of potato chips might be 250. calories and by the way like how many. boiled potatoes are you gonna [ __ ]. eat right. I'll tell you how many potato chips I. could eat and the answer is quite.

alarming right yeah a ton of them yeah I. can keep going open up a second bag of. Pringles yeah the box of Pringles or. um like Ruffles yeah oh I love them so. good yeah so I saw some vinegar ones. yeah exactly yeah those are the ones. that get you yeah it's uh our food. there's so many people that eat far more. calories than they burn and it's easy to. do you know if you're eating pizza how. easy is it to overeat on Pizza yeah so. [ __ ] and that's not even processed. even good pizza dude yeah I mean it's.

the amount of calories like a pizza from. a place like a Domino's or Pizza Hut I. mean it just literally like hits your. mouth and just kind of melts and somehow. you've just eaten one slice in like you. know seconds one bite yeah it's probably. who knows how many hundreds of calories. in a slice yeah it's got to be how about. five six slices yeah so I'm literally. burning off I mean it would take me. hours in the gym to burn off a pizza oh. totally like if I eat a whole large. Domino's Pizza which I have.

more than once oh I have two yeah how. many hours is that in the gym so many. probably like three hours of hard cardio. just and you're not gonna do that and I. don't there's I don't think people. realize just how many calories things. have like okay this morning you know. before the show I go get a coffee or. whatever. and I get a black coffee but you know. people's orders are coming out and you. know it's like all right I got a um. pumpkin Chino uh cinnamon bun Frozen.

frap extra whip for so and so large. that's probably 900 calories yeah maybe. you know and that's like in the start of. their day in addition and that's not. breakfast right that's like the coffee. that's a nice coffee I'm just gonna get. a Starbucks yeah I'm just gonna get us. that's what they say I'll get a. Starbucks I mean it's a [ __ ]. milkshake they uh someone made a. breakdown I think on uh Instagram or. something like that of uh one of those. uh Baskin Robbins coffee things those.

flurries or whatever the [ __ ] it is. that's a that's a McDonald's thing right. whatever it was a hundred and twenty. nine grams of sugar whoa so they showed. the actual amount of sugar you would get. you had a a clear like container that. showed the amount of sugar that you'd be. eating just drinking one of these things. crazy how do you stay awake after that. it seems like you'd go into a [ __ ]. sugar coma so when I when I was in the. jungle with that tribe we did have sugar.

we had a sugar cane but the difference. is that we had to walk into the jungle. we had to physically chop it we had to. move it to this expeller thing they have. that is human powered so you put the. cane in this in between these two wood. pole things and then you have to push. this thing around and it shoves the cane. through that and it juices it and so by. the time you've done all that work like. you've burned quite a few calories and. by the way you're not getting 129 grams. from it right thing of sugar right and. so I think it just goes back for the.

average person that we don't move enough. so we can't buffer the sugar all right. diabetes could just be that you are uh. it's too much couch rather than too much. of anything else and it's also just so. easy to eat. food today and take in a lot of calories. in one bite because. just as you know I mentioned the. beginning we got this casino lab. figuring out what leads people to gamble. more we've got tons of labs across the. country going how do we make super.

delicious hyper palatable food that. people will eat more of yeah now I don't. fault yeah this is the guy so it's. Dunkin Donuts that's what it is not. Baskin Robbins. oh 185. sorry it's this much it's four. look at that damn six teaspoons of sugar. to give you another perspective the. amount of sugar in there is equal to 14. glazed donuts. dude.

it's like that and how many people throw. those things down every day that's the. ultimate calorie delivery Dunkin Donuts. I didn't know it was a Dunkin Donuts. thing dang. yeah. yeah we eat too much sugar we eat too. much processed [ __ ]. and um if you don't do that the. interesting thing about the carnivore. diet is you can't overeat I mean you. could I guess I can't I get satisfied. pretty quickly yeah one you know 16. ounce steak or an 18 ounce steak and I'm. done. but if that 16 ounce steak was sitting.

next to a bowl of pasta I would eat the. Pasta Too smash the pasta yeah you just. like tried a little also good like even. though I'm full I'll still eat it. because it's like you're getting this. reward from those carbs and the flavors. and because that's one of the things. they say about those competitive eaters. you know when they're in those hot dog. eating contests and [ __ ] like that they. eat fries with it so they can eat more. food so they can keep going yeah yeah. which is wild if you offer a human more.

different food they will eat more. different food yeah so even if you like. they do studies in buffets and people. always eat way more food than normal at. a buffet simply because they're trying. so many different things right and. there's incentives to to do that so I. think when you. when you start to cut out food groups. you inevitably eat less food because it. also becomes less rewarding as well you. know yeah I think that's what happens. with. um this tribe as well is I mean when we.

sit down for lunch we have uh chicken. white rice some baked plantains and some. onions. it was all terrible. it was all [ __ ] terrible dude just. blend subsistence food Bland as hell the. chicken I mean so the chicken was. probably I don't know like a three pound. chicken or something I mean now today in. the U.S our chickens are giant giant and. so this meat is just really like stringy. and chewy I'm going thank you yeah it's.

a wild chicken probably yeah yeah wild. chicken and so we just don't uh We've. enhanced the flavor of our food to such. a degree that we're never really gonna. eat more of it which don't get me wrong. this is a good problem to have in the. grand scheme of time and space it's. better than starvation it's better than. starvation so people will be like you. know the modern food system is the worst. thing ever and it's like. well compared to what right compared to. 200 years ago very few people are. starving to death in America exactly if. they are and at all I don't know what.

the numbers are but yeah I mean usually. that's abuse someone's starving yeah. it's usually a distribution problem and. it often unfortunately happens with. children because they've got shitty. parents yeah it's not a food thing we. throw out about a third of our food. which is crazy yeah. well listen Michael it's always great to. talk to you my friend it's always going. to sit down and talk to you about. anything and everything and uh your book. your newest book scarcity brain is it. out now it is out yep uh do you do. audiobook I did do the audiobook I did.

the audience yes I read the whole damn. thing yes yeah I'm so happy when people. tell me that I hate when an author who. especially you whose voice I know you. know I want to hear you say it you know. it bums me out when so I'm glad you did. it yeah it's a lot of it's a lot of. tedious work but it is it's totally. worth it I think in the end well thank. you very much my friend I appreciate you. thanks for having me man um tell. everybody your Instagram all that good. stuff uh Instagram is Michael underscore. Easter I got a sub stack where I write. about all the kind of stuff we just.

talked about today it's called two. percent and then the book is called. scarcity brand all right thank you very. much right on thank you everybody. [Music]. foreign.