Joe Rogan Experience #1993 - Josh Dubin & Bruce Bryan

[Music]. by night. what's up what's up man good to see you. more brother great to be here thank you. and uh thank you for bringing Bruce and. thanks for coming out last night that. was a good time I had a great time man. for everyone to like guys started. realizing while you were there your. story like the words started getting. around the green room and uh it was one. of those things like what he just got.

out three weeks ago wrongfully accused. for 30 years and here he is having a. good time it was it was a crazy. experience to like be sharing the green. room with you because you could see. everybody like you became like the. celebrity The Green Room you know what. I'm saying like everybody wanted to hear. the story everybody wanted to talk to. you everybody was blown away by it and. by the the grace that you displayed like. the fact that you could be wrongfully. accused spend 30 years of your young. life in in a cage and then come out and.

just be this wonderful fun guy having a. good time everyone's laughing having. conversations. it was beautiful. it was beautiful. um I look I'm standing next to him last. night you know worried. most of the night because. you know we had got on a plane and that. was his first time flying in over 30. years. um. there was a lot of stimulation and.

you know I could tell you that I'm still. in shock even sitting here now that. we're sitting next to each other because. I spent the last several years visiting. him at sing-sing which is. um you know not a great place things in. prison in New York. um but I don't want to throw cold water. on anything but. you know. there there's a lot of stealing yourself.

for the moment last night going on that. people didn't see. from you. um I think for Bruce I mean there was. one point where we were sitting in the. balcony. um watching a tell and by the way. congratulations on that amazing Club. thank you an amazing the comedy. mothership is uh. is really a dream for the comedians love. it the crowd was amazing it was just so. awesome to see so congrats on that thank. you very much how fun is Dave tell he's.

well my side hurts he's a master he's a. master but um we were sitting there and. some other folks came in and at some. point. uh you know Bruce kept looking over her. shoulder. and you know I realized that he was. uncomfortable and uh he switched seats. very quickly so that he would be side to. side shoulder to shoulder with them. I know I think I know why he did it yeah. why did you do that well I think in.

prison you become accustomed to not. wanting people behind you right and then. I got this scar in prison from behind so. you're always conscious of what's behind. you um you know of course yeah no one. goes through that experience. unscathed right you come out with these. uh idiosyncrasies or these quirks that. you these defense mechanisms that you. developed why you're incarcerated. you know you're in an abnormal. environment for decades you're gonna. it's gonna have an effect on you. psychologically how old were you when.

they put you in I was 23 going I just. turned 24. and tell us the whole story of what. happened. well. I was arrested back in 1994 for homicide. I think that everyone knew that I didn't. do this case at all everyone knew I. didn't commit the crime I mean I. literally woke up that afternoon because. my girlfriend wanted to change her. niece's costume. and she wanted she also had a taste for.

chocolate cake. so just imagine waking up to change a. costume for Halloween a child's costume. and then disappearing for the next 29. years of your life. right. and being being charged with a homicide. while the prosecutor involved in your. conviction. has a history of misconduct and it. wasn't until some 27 26 years later. that he finally gets arrested and gets.

convicted. former Queen's prosecutor John scarfa he. gets convicted for the very same. misconduct that I've been telling them. about that he's been doing for decades. so he would just find someone painted on. them. yeah he would concoct the story of. theory as he did in my situation and he. did this just to just to convict someone. yeah anyone yeah so it wasn't that he. was targeting you it just he just. decided it was you anybody that he felt.

was involved in a criminal lifestyle or. in drug dealing it's easier to get. someone that has a history of being. involved in the streets to put a case on. them then it is there's someone that. doesn't so you know once they find out. that you have a record it's easy to say. all right well he did this homicide what. kind of a record did you have at the. time I had a drug I had a drug sale. prior to that. so that's enough for him to say okay. he's a part of a drug crew and uh. you know let's arrest him and lock them. up his this particular prosecutor his.

thing was bribery. um he would pay off Witnesses and he. ended up not only getting convicted but. went to federal prison for it. um you know I I should give some context. here because to the extent that Bruce is. going to be. um guarded about certain details of his. case I want to explain why. um. last time I was on with Derek Hamilton.

we were. you know sort of previewing the center. that we would open so I left the. Innocence Project I was the ambassador. of the Innocence Project and I think. that there was a real need for work. being done on cases that didn't just. involve DNA so we deal with cases that. involve all manner of what we think is. junk forensic science that we've talked. about ballistics arson bite marks and so. on. but we also want there to be an aspect.

that dealt with clemency for people that. we think got over sentenced and deserved. a second chance so. Bruce was our first client at the. promoter center for legal justice at. Cardozo law and I got a call. from a guy named Steve zeidman that runs. a clemency Center at CUNY law. and Steve said you know. congratulations on the news center I. have the perfect guy for you his name is. Bruce Bryant with the T at the end of.

his name. that becomes important in a minute and. he said I'm going to send you some. information about him. so he emails me. this list of accomplishments. um. it was more than most human beings can. accomplish in seven lifetimes. from the the degrees that he achieved to. starting a gun buyback program from. inside to starting uh something called. Voices From Within These Community.

um these these galvanizing sort of. community outreach programs. and um. you know I went to go visit him. with. the mindset that I was going to support. his clemency application and getting. clemency in New York in Easy from the. governor. um and you know clemency is supposed to. be all about Rehabilitation and. transformation and historically.

especially in New York you have to. express contrition. and explain to the parole board. if you were granted clemency and. it is a commutation of your sentence. that is a shortening of your sentence. you have to explain to the parole board. here's what I have done to transform. myself and accept responsibility. um. so keeping that in mind I went to visit.

Bruce for the first time. and I said nice to meet you he says nice. to meet you you know I wrote you four. years ago. he said to me and um. you know. I felt ridiculous. it was at a time where I didn't have the. promoter center for legal justice and I. sort of was doing one-off cases. sometimes with the Innocence Project. sometimes by myself. and um. I was really struck by by his presence.

by how articulate he was one of the most. well-read human beings he was telling me. about you know how he finished the. Victor Frankel. um book man search for meaning and we. had this amazing conversation about. meditation and yoga and we turned a half. hour visit into three hours to the point. where they told me I had to you know go. so I went back and I looked for the. letter. because I keep all the letters that I. get and I find this beautifully written.

super articulate letter. and I'll never forget how he signed it. because it stuck with me and said oceans. of gratitude. Bruce Bryan. and I just got curious I agreed to. represent him along with Steve zodman in. connection with his clemency. um but innocence wasn't on my mind and. then I read the trial transcript. and. I realized that this guy wasn't just. innocent.

but. I think what struck me was that. um. the Innocence claim was so strong. that it didn't make you know it was hard. for me to to get behind a clemency. petition without him being able to say. I'm innocent. you know when he got before the parole. board so. he um. his case is being reinvestigated right. now by What's called the conviction. Integrity unit in Queens.

which is a sensational. arm of the District Attorney's Office. it's the district attorney Melinda Katz. and we we have to be respectful of that. reinvestigation of the case because it's. pending right now and that is you know. to hopefully exonerate Bruce completely. but. you know and there's a great guy that. runs the unit and they're involved in an. intense reinvestigation of the case.

but Bruce got clemency a couple of. months ago by governor hokel in December. and he got to stand before the parole. board and it was a scary moment for me. as one of his lawyers. that when they asked him did you commit. this crime. for him to say no I didn't and to be. granted clemency and to be then granted. parole an innocence claim is. extraordinarily rare.

so I think it spoke to both how powerful. his innocence claims are and his. accomplishments the only there's only a. few other people one of them is Derek. Hamilton that went before the parole. board and said I'm not going to. you know admit to something I didn't do. just to get out of here. um so I just wanted to give you that. context. um because details of the case specific. details of the case are going to be. difficult to discuss and I think. what um.

what's amazing about Bruce is what he. has been able to accomplish from inside. in the face of his innocence is. mind-blowing. um how you know a lot of times when. we're on the show we get inquiries about. how people can help and. um how how do people overcome this and I. think why people are attracted to these. stories of the wrongfully incarcerated. I had to search myself it's because I.

like being around this kind of strength. I don't know how you know. people like him summon the strength to. get through it. and you know when talking to Bruce the. last couple of weeks. he and what he endured in prison is. something we haven't really talked about. on the show too much like in granularity. about like what it's like in these. institutions. and I was hoping we could talk about. among other things some of that today. because he was in some of the worst.

penitentiaries in New York. from Attica to. I was in Clinton Great Meadows. sing-sing all Maximum securities. or maximum security prisons way Upstate. and uh. and some uh. towns that are essentially. you know some you know a lot of a lot of. racism is pervasive in those towns and. the prison is the uh it's the only uh. economic development in that town so you. got brother cousins aunts and uncles.

working in the same prison so you get. into an incident with one officer you. got a problem with the entire system. and that's just how it is when you go. deeper Upstate I mean borderline Canada. you know Clinton Donna Marvin Great. Meadows and different prisons like that. so in the economy of the area depends. upon depends upon the prison because. there's really nothing there. but snow during the winter time and. farming so there's nothing else there.

so the prison is a driving force behind. the economy so everyone's there right. siblings so nepotism is you know it's. prevalent in these prisons. and one of the things that you you. encounter is that you know these it's. not just cold in those areas if prison. is a cold environment and it's up to you. to create your own heat it's a dark. environment and uh somehow you gotta. find that light you know that light. within yourself in order to um in order.

to travel in order to you know to do. something with your life more meaningful. you know what I mean. um and it's difficult it's not easy you. watch guys. um you know guys you talk to today and. you know tomorrow they're swinging from. the like they're dead right yesterday. they were fine you know the next morning. you wake up they they've hung themselves. you know and and these are the things. that that you encounter day in and day. out and you still have to maintain a. sense of.

a sense of humanity right you've got to. become you could either do two things. you could become bitter or you could. become better. I chose the latter because one of the. things I did early in my incarceration. was make a conscious decision. to not serve time but to have time serve. me. I made up my mind that if you were going. to have me incarcerated for a crime I. did not commit. then I was going to take this time and. use that cell as if it was an office.

I was going to use that school building. as if it was a university. and every chance I I had to. just self-reflect and engage in. introspection and and and do the things. that I needed to do to protect my soul. um I was going to do it. you know and I made it my business to do. so and I started delving into material. that I probably would never have read. you know being in uh being a free man I. started reading you know everything from.

you know philosophy books to you know. very very few novels but I I tend to. learn from the experiences of others so. autobiographies became my thing you know. from from Quincy Jones to Miles Davis. and and just continuously studying right. and then studying the system and what. drives the system and and why it has. become what it is you know from. education to. you know to to the whole system of why.

educational system looks at a guy in the. third grade and determines. whether or not he's going to be caught. up in the criminal justice system as. early as the third grade right based on. your reading level. they can determine how many prison beds. that they're going to develop. these are things that most people don't. know right these like 50 of the. incarcerated people in New York state. are probably in the country are living. with dyslexia. so then so they're unable to to learn.

you know the basics of Education like. reading and these guys go home and they. commit crimes over and over again. because they were never corrected in. these same systems that. were built on the premise of. Rehabilitation. or Draconian in that. they do nothing but you know steal a. person's humanity and allow them to. become or looked at as nothing more than. a number. all right you got to wake up six o'clock. in the morning sometimes when they're. coming around they're asking you your.

name and they're not asking your name. they're asking you you know your numbers. what cell location you're in. they're not calling you Mr Brian they're. calling you 60 cell. right and a lot of people begin to. internalize that and lose their sense of. self. and so I remained guarded and um. and try to maintain a sense of humanity. through my meditation. right do fasting every now and then and. just do deep introspection and. reflection for me that was the hard part.

the easy part was education and learning. the hard part was introspection and. fighting a system. right not just a prosecutor or a court. but fighting a system that was premised. on um. you know. oppression right that was premised on. it's a business a prison industrial. complex you got cheap labor you know the. 13th Amendment says you allowed to be. enslaved if you're convicted of a crime. you see and so you know in a system like.

that you have to find a way you got to. find it within yourself too. to Rise Above The Fray did you meet. anyone else inside that showed you this. path. yes. early on in my incarceration there was a. group of guys called the resurrection. study group. and it was founded by a guy named Eddie. Ellis who has since passed on. and what the resurrection study group. did was they developed this this program.

called the non-traditional approach to. Social and criminal justice. and it helped them understand why the. vast majority of incarcerated people in. New York state came from at that time. they came from seven basic neighborhoods. right and these were neighborhoods that. were all impoverished. that were all plagued with what we call. Crime genitive factors from. you know substance abuse to dilapidated. housing to uh you know just poverty.

right. um and so you see you see violence and. what I've come to realize is that. poverty is violence. so wherever there's property you're. going to see violence because poverty. itself is violence and so these. neighborhoods you begin to learn and. study and you begin to see that this is. not by accident. you know these prisons were built for a. purpose. um. there's a saying they say you build it. they're going to come that's the same. thing with prisons you build them.

they're going to come similar to um the. 1994 crime bill. that was signed by uh Bill Clinton and. authored co-authored by our now. President Joe Biden and incarcerated. more people across the country than in. any other time. right it perpetuated the three strikes. you're out. um you had guys who stole a slice of. pizza third strike he gets 25 to life. we're looking at cases now where guys.

stuck 200 he'd been in jail for 20 years. some guy sentenced 70 years for armed. robbery. right all of these things come under the. 1994 crime bill so you've been beginning. to see it as a system that was designed. to do certain things. it's a wake-up call for you and you. begin to say hold on man um. I fell for the Trap it's time for me to. begin taking a different route and and. begin to educating myself more and so.

the resurrection study group these guys. steered me in that direction. Direction and I began to learn from. another gentleman that was a part of it. by the name of Dr Gary Mendez who also. died. and he had a program called The National. Trust. for the development of African-American. men and what it did was is help us. restore those values that we strayed. away from. so this this is what got me on the right. path early in my incarceration.

how difficult was that to stay on that. path because it seems like obviously you. you did find a way to be very. disciplined and and and stick to it and. you you give off this energy of a person. who's been on a long Voyage in that. regard but how difficult was it as a. Young Man extremely difficult because. the norm is. you know a microcosm of what takes place. in society drugs violence the hustling.

everything that goes on uh in society it. happens in prison right you know. relationships with staff. all of that takes place right and so. it's extremely difficult. it's it's almost like a battle because. the guys in my age group they were not. doing what I was doing. they were in the yard either gang. banging selling drugs getting high. you know very few of them were in the.

law library. but I come to realize also that is when. you're wrongfully convicted you fight a. little different than a guy that's. actually. accepted his fate for what he's done I. think that's your fight in your pursuit. of um your Liberty but also your pursuit. to become to rise above your. circumstance becomes a little different. you know um. where I was didn't have to Define who I. was. or who I can become and once I began.

writing and putting these things on the. cell walls you know like affirmations or. quotes that I would develop not that I. you know would take from anyone but one. is that I would develop myself right. after reading and studying and then you. have these epiphanies I used to sleep. with a pen and a paper that's what the. guys who Resurrection study group taught. me I was sleep with a pen in the pan. and because they say some of your most. uh pure thoughts come in the Midnight. Hour in the midst of your sleep.

and certain things principles that uh. that I began to live by would come to me. in those late hours and I would write. them down. and the next day I would wake up and I. would stick them on the wall and I would. begin to internalize these principles. and these Marvels that I began to. develop that reconnected me to you know. my own Humanity because Prison strips. you of so much of that man. what was it like on day one of your. release.

what was that is it even possible to. describe that feeling. it was. the best feeling. that a human being can feel. to see my mother to see my loved ones my. siblings. still breathing still alive because I. lost my father in 2017.

so to see love. is what I saw. it's Indescribable it was it was beyond. Beyond being elated you know Joy it was. just a deep deep sense of um of bliss it. was almost like heaven man. if there was such a thing as heaven on. Earth. there was Heaven the day that I walked. out of prison I was like I walked out of. hell and straight into heaven there was.

no there was no Purgatory right there. was no Purgatory so so I went straight. from Hell straight to heaven this one. this one I got to tell you. um for me. you know I've had the fortunate. experience of walking. you know my fair share of people out. this one was like. this one was what they based the movies. on. this was. so stunning in the way it happened.

um. the super the warden of sing-sing is is. actually a great man his name is Mike. Capra. um he's too bad he's retiring soon and. um. he really believed in Bruce and um you. know he was. responsible for making sure that there. are a lot of programs in Sing Sing for. the people that want them and they. typically release people out of Sing. Sing which is an awesome New York it's.

about an hour and a half north of the. city on the Hudson. and they usually just take them from a. prison van to a bus stop and just drop. them off. I was outside the prison gate. and so was Bruce's family and and. friends and love other loved ones that. um had come from around the country. and I called the super. um about a half hour before he was. released because we had got word from.

another guard that was standing outside. or they're not going to release him here. they're gonna. drop them off at a train station and I. called him I said please you know let. him have this moment and he said oh. we're gonna we're gonna do that and if. you picture. this 30-foot. wall. steel green wall. that all of a sudden just parts. and you see this figure.

um. emerge. with a net. with his worldly possessions. and uh. you know it was uh. and has he was walking his sister. Justina who's oddly enough a court. officer in the very Courthouse where he. was convicted. they were walking to each other and the.

walk started to turn into a a fast walk. and then they both at the same time just. ran to each other and embraced. um you know I'm a crier I just like I. just stood back and watched and um. everyone was just weeping you know and. and his mother had just pulled up. she got you know sort of like lost on. the way to the prison it's not easy to. find. and um.

that one for me this one he Bruce and I. have a deep special relationship he had. spoken to my children on the phone. before he got out. um they call him Uncle Bruce and you. know I'm sitting back I feel like like a. proud brother. um listening to him speak you know what. an impressive human being just to hear. him articulate in his command of the of. not only. um you know his knowledge base but his.

understanding of the world around him. uh it just it always hits me like what. what a weird irony. um. that this man in the face of his. innocent still recognized I got to. change my life. I didn't commit this crime but I don't. like the way I'm living. and. you know I mean we say the words 29. years and you hear of what he overcame.

but. you know it wasn't without incident you. see the scar on his face. there were stretches and solitary. confinement that I'd rather him describe. because I didn't live it. um and you know dealing with the. violence of prison and you know he's. explaining to you like waking up in the. night with a thought and writing it down. on a pad and it's like it conjures up an. image at least for me if someone. blissfully sleeping I mean this is. against the backdrop of him living on a.

on a tear. that is full of people. many of them suffering extraordinary. mental illness screaming yelling having. rap competitions until two three in the. morning. I mean deafening noise on a cell block. for those that have never been there. yeah 88 men 88 cells on a gallery in. this thing saying and you have four. galleries right on top of each other. the longest tears so you can see a guy.

getting stabbed in 88 cell and you may. be in 10 and the guys way down there. getting stuff the God is by the. staircase. and this guy is screaming for dear life. no one hears them but you know he's. getting hit. and you know the prison culture. kind of You Got a Friend for yourself. it's not you know. you know what happens in an environment. like that guys keep quiet sometimes a. guy gets shoved back in himself. he's left to die or he's he prays that.

an officer comes and and finds him in. there laying in his blood and he. survives. I watch guys um. guys that I were close to. you talk to him today you have coffee. with him today and tonight when they. call on the child he doesn't move out of. his self you find out what's going on. with him. 15 minutes earlier. there's no Narcan in the cell blocks to. hit this guy to wake him up they know. that they know drugs are ubiquitous in.

prison they're everywhere. yet you know the procedures that are in. place are not there the safeguards are. not there to protect lives because they. don't see you that your life is it. doesn't matter right there's a huge. sense of being devalued. human life is completely devalued in. these institutions your numbers and once. you leave and someone else will take. your place and that's the attitude of. the prison industrial complex as a whole.

you know. what's terrifying is there's been. no talk to mitigate all the problems. that lead to the prison industrial. complex there's no one's talking about. getting rid of it no one's no one's. talking about getting rid of private. prisons no one's talking about trying to. figure out a way to other than just. policing to do something about these. communities that keep.

decade after decade being a place where. no one has hope and every politician. says let's get it's either get tough on. crime yes or light on crime yes right. right so but no one says instead of. getting tough on crime why don't we get. tough on the social conditions that. produce crime yes. because no one is born a criminal these. are conditions that people come out of. that drive them unless you're a nut. right unless you have some serious. mental health issues and you're just.

like this you know you're obsessed with. with children little boys like we talked. about last night in the comedy club or. you're a pedophile or something and you. need some serious mental health work um. no one is talking about dealing with the. crime generative factors that exist in. poor communities across the country. when you look at in New York City the. Bronx is the poorest Community poorest. Borough in New York City Brownsville is. the poorest Community both of these. communities both of these places are.

you know the crime is a you know it is. high you violence is high right drug use. is high. this because the social conditions are. that bad right and the cycle continues. you know it's it's a cycle because. people are living in not just poverty. they're living in concentrated poverty. generational poverty so my family grew. up one family grew up in the projects. their children wind up growing up in the. projects right unless someone comes and.

breaks that cycle. and there's this serious intervention to. break the cycle of incarceration or. intergenerational incarceration it you. know it continues to be perpetuated. and the problem seems to be that every. politician is just concerned with. getting elected so they want to say. whatever the people want to hear and if. the people want to hear get tough on. crime it's that but you don't hear we. need to eliminate all the all the areas. of our country that are creating these. issues we used to fit we have to fix.

that they have to fix it it has to be a. concentrated effort it has to be I've. always said you want to make America. great have less losers how do you have. less losers you have more people with. opportunity you figure out where people. don't have opportunity you provide. opportunity and you pour all the money. into that we obviously have billions of. dollars to provide to Ukraine there's. always something there's always. something that they come up with where. they need trillions of dollars for this. and billions of dollars for that green. energy and this and that.

there's no better use of resources than. making better human beings giving human. beings opportunities and maybe it's time. to stop relying on the government for it. because. politicians it's almost like when I. think of a politician now in in the. context of helping solve these problems. it's almost like. you know wouldn't it be nice for me to. be able to fly yeah that'd be nice but. it's not going to happen right you know.

um. so what we're trying to do with the. Pearl Mudder center for legal justice is. and is to get the word out. um to even the private sector if we can. create self-driving cars. and artificial intelligence and send. people into space. this is a solvable problem I mean I one. of the things that has been. um. I mean I don't know why I needed this. as like some Epiphany because I've been.

doing this work for close to 20 years. um but lately. I have been struck by the cases that. we're working on in a way that I haven't. before. and. if you ever want to see like. the the true. um it's the best way to articulate this. how how [ __ ] up this country is in.

terms of racial disparity and the. mistreatment of minorities in this. country go visit a prison. sing sing as a program where we'll talk. about it where they take people from the. community in and say Here's what is. going on here. I have routinely sat across a table like. this in a small room. in the visit in the legal visiting room. at sing-sing let's just take sing-sing. for example we recently. um. on one of our new clients.

um. was sentenced to 70 years. 70 years for a first offense. in which the extent of the victim's. injuries were four stitches. this man Sheldon Johnson served. 2016 26 years. and. I took a look at this case and I said. how is this possible.

a few weeks later I'm I'm visiting with. a man who's serving 25 to life. for the alleged robbery. two hundred dollars. in which the alleged victim. has a condition where one eye is shut. and the other eye had multiple surgeries. that were never disclosed to the defense. um. you know and this is an eyewitness. account yes there's no evidence and he's.

the only eyewitness and he's the only. thing no pun intended in his and his and. he could not identify the person that. wasn't disclosed and then and then not. the extent of his uh his eye issues you. couldn't hide the fact that one eye was. but was closed but the point I'm trying. to make is that. it is extraordinarily rare for me to be. hearing these stories and the person. sitting across the table from me as a. white person. it's always a black man.

or a Latin man. and it begs the question well. you know what do we think. African-Americans are more have a higher. propensity to commit crime that's not it. it's exactly what Bruce is talking about. and what what I hope to do is to. continue to get the word out. because we so often have people writing. us calling us sending us emails DMS on.

Instagram how can I help. right. and one of the ways that you can help is. getting involved in communities that are. poor whether it's volunteering at a. community center in areas like. Brownsville whether it's donating funds. to Community Based organizations whether. it's corresponding with someone and it's. just getting the word out in a way and. if you're going to be a politician for. the Young Generation you know you have.

to actually. not look at what the public. is wants to hear or what you think the. public wants to hear it's okay to run. and lose. as long as it becomes you know a way to. propel a message in a certain direction. what people try to do their idea is to. run and run with they have these. ulterior ideas that they don't divulge. run and then try to implement them this.

is the idealistic utopian view of a. president here's the problem with that I. think when you get into office they set. you the [ __ ] down and they explain how. everything really works and I think it's. very terrifying and I think we're. probably a brink of conflict all over. the world and there's all sorts of. problems they're constantly dealing with. and they don't want to hear jack [ __ ]. about what you want to do for. communities they want to know how much. money can we get for these. military-industrial complex corporations. that have been sponsoring your campaign.

that have been helping get things across. on whether it's social media or. mainstream media whatever narratives you. want pushed whatever the pharmaceutical. drug companies want pushed all of this. is very clear this is not conspiracy. theory anymore now that we know like. with the release of the Twitter files. from Twitter with the the FBI we know. they're involved in narratives we know. they're involved in doing these things. we know they're involved in putting. agent provocateurs into all these. organizations like that Governor Whitmer.

lady who got their kidnapping plot to. get her 14 people 12 of them we're FBI. informants that's just [ __ ] insane. yes so all this stuff exists this is not. this is not conspiracy theory anymore. I think that's the problem what happens. when you get into office you're dealing. with a [ __ ] tsunami of [ __ ] and. it's just deeply ingrained it's just. like the system of these impoverished. communities is is deeply ingrained and. generational I think the culture of the. deep state is also deeply ingrained and.

generational the culture of the. relationship that they have to money to. whether it's money from the bankers. money from the pharmaceutical drug. companies in the military industrial. complex there's Sensational amounts of. money that can be had and we're seeing. it in motion right now in what you know. many people are framing as a just. conflict in Ukraine but there's also an. insane amount of money involved in this. and you have to be very careful or. whatever the [ __ ] the narrative is. that's being discussed when there's an. insane amount of money involved and.

that's what's going on right now and I. think that if we as people what I like. what you're saying. is the United States and if you can get. businesses involved and businesses can. actually generate revenue from. rehabilitating communities if they could. figure out if Halliburton can figure out. how to rebuild Iraq after they blew it. up. which is one of the craziest things of. all time you got to go as the CEO of. Halliburton just happened to be the vice. president of the United States and then. they get no bid contracts to rebuild. [ __ ] he decides to blow up I mean it's.

wild right but if they can do that if. there's profit in that how is there not. profit and rehabilitating neighborhoods. it seems like profit for everyone but. that's how that's why we're continuing. to do this show I cannot tell you I say. it every time I'm on here you'll get. tired of it maybe and maybe it sounds. like. um you know ass kissing and I will kiss. whatever ass there is to kiss this show. has become such an important platform. for us because watch this ready.

I spoke about this before there's a case. in California right now. in case of this guy Pierre rushing right. the attorney that's handling it from a. big law firm named Greenberg truck his. name is Jordan Grossinger. he is this this. kid really was accused of murder in 2011. he sentenced 50 years to life. there's one witness.

this guy's name is Robert Greene. he's a Serial felon a seven-time felon. he doesn't identify peer rushing until. three weeks after the crime. he. um is a crack addict who admitted that. he was high at the time the crime was. committed. no physical evidence implicating Pierre. rushing two other Witnesses at the scene. when this shooting took place say it was. not pure Russian.

so. Jordan Grossinger sends me a direct. message on Instagram because he heard. this podcast. now here is a global Law Firm that has. vast resources and he said I just want. to do something how do I get involved. and. you know. he learns about this case. and gets the pro bono department at his. Law Firm to take it up. he now has declarations from the only.

Witness. this guy Robert Greene who has totally. recanted and said he made it all up. he has another declaration. from you know another witness saying. that Pierre rushing the actually the. other guy that was convicted of this. crime said Pierre rushing had nothing to. do with it so the question becomes now. what can you so look it's a testament to. the power of this show and this platform. that this guy is hopefully on the.

precipice of getting out or saving a. life. but the question becomes well what can. you do as a listener grab your pens all. right you can write to the Alameda. district attorney Pamela price. at 1225 Fallon Street in Oakland. California 94612. and I know you can just rewind it if you. miss the address. write d a Pamela Smart.

and ask her to please release Pierre. rushing there's a petition called a. petition of habeas corpus which I think. translates in Latin to the holding of. the body can I stop you for real quick. spell Fallon. f-a-l-o-n-f-a-f-a-1 so it's Alameda. district attorney Pamela price one two. two five Fallon Street Oakland. California 2l's yes so fouling with two. L's and you know I know that the case is.

on her radar. um I think that she is and read about. the case Pierre rushing just how it. sounds and the the. more we LED District Attorneys. politicians know that the public is. paying attention. um. I can tell you from my experience that. of being on this show that the DA's. listen.

um I've had them reference appearances. on this show acting like how could you. you know say that about you know. Douglas County Kansas you know but then. you know they get a thousand letters and. they realize that politically it's not. going to look very good to keep an. innocent what is the hold up you know. these wheels of Justice grind slowly and. for a man like Bruce who is sitting in. there and having to you know witness. violence on a day-to-day basis.

Unthinkable conditions where he sleeps. in in a in a room when he's put in in. what they call the box or the hole. and has rodents crawling across his. chest as he sleeps I'm not making this. [ __ ] up this is this was his day-to-day. existence. Pierre rushing is in similar. circumstances you can make a difference. to write a letter read about the case. the habeas petitions are out there to.

read them and you know I think that we. just need all I can do all I can think. of we could have grandiose ideas it. would be amazing if a big Corporation. didn't decide to donate a lot of money. because they felt guilty about what. happened to George Floyd. um and then all of a sudden it became. the summer of of like corporate guilt. and everyone starts donating you don't. donate because it's in Vogue you donate. because you actually want to make a. difference and take it from little old.

me. you know I know that I'm one grain of. sand on a massive Beach. um but. what Bruce said and I've said it before. I'll say it again. I've done my fair share of drugs and. mind-altering substances there is no. feeling like helping restore somebody's. life and freedom nothing nothing comes. close to it so if you want to be another. grain of sand on that beach hopefully.

the grain of sand will form a sand. castle and then there'll be more sand. castles and people will start paying. more attention that's all I can think of. as just an individual and an. organization. to keep on doing is to keep banging the. drum and the more we bang it and the. louder we bang it so again I I thank you. for the for the platform and I want. people to be able to see and witness. these marvelous human beings is such a. waste to have them locked away behind. Prison Walls when you know you hear him.

speak Bruce just accepted a position. with the promoter center for legal. justice he's going to be a Criminal. Justice Reform Advocate and a student. Mentor not because I feel bad for him. not because I think you know oh he's. because he's earned it listen to him. speak and listen to his command of the. issues. um. you know so I I sometimes find myself. like I feel like I'm um trying to climb. I feel like Sisyphus sometimes right and. the boulder keeps rolling back up yeah.

and then I get a you know you get a. little taste of what that's like to help. you know stand next to him last night. and watch him watch a comedy show and. then we were walking down the street and. just here like hear him inhale a breath. of fresh air or this morning before we. came here. saw the pool at the hotel. and teared up. and he said I'm going in and I I heard. this like with like childlike wonder the.

Splash and like. you know I went over and he had both. arms in the air he said take a picture. of me I still got it and and I I thought. I [ __ ] blanked and I thought I. thought to myself. this must be the first time he swam in. over 30 years. and. you know it was just to be able to watch. that and to be even a small part of it. um just like makes you feel like getting. up the next day and with a smile on your.

face with the will to want to do it. again and help someone else. I want to touch on something that Joe. said. I think. investing what people don't realize is. the huge talent pool that exists behind. Prison Walls. these guys can they can help drive the. economy outside of just being in concert. right if you're spending 80 billion. dollars a year on conservation across. the country. these guys you have you got all this you.

got guys that. guys that make anything in here man out. of just you know just anything I've seen. guys make statues like this from paper. towels. and soap he said what the hell so the. talent pool is Broad if we're willing to. invest in people. right if we invest in the social. infrastructure. and tap into that that that that. cultural capital that exists behind. Prison Walls and and just start. beginning to invest in people instead of.

things in prisons right you know we got. we got to learn to just really say well. is prison the right answer who's who's. corrected from prison prison Corrections. has never corrected anyone it's the. person that engages in introspection and. says I want to make a change. but the pre you know even in even when. you look at the Investments that they. make in in law enforcement. if law enforcement was the answer to. Crime would be the safest place on the.

planet Earth. America be the safest place in the. planet Earth because we've got more cops. than anywhere else. right so we we give so much overtime and. we give our money to the police officers. and they granted they you know they're. important right but. they don't solve crime they don't. prevent crime it's just that simple they. just don't right when you invest in. people and you provide them with. opportunities. to create Better Lives for themselves. and to allow a hand up so they can pick.

their families up out of poverty. that's the change that's the difference. I mean inconsideration would go down. exponentially if people begin to feel. like they were important to feel valued. because someone's invested in them this. is where it gets dangerous because the. prison industrial complex is a business. and the business protects itself there's. been prison guard unions that have. lobbied to keep marijuana illegal in. States because they want work which is. one of the most evil things you could. ever consider that you're you're using.

human beings as batteries so you can. generate money keeping them in a cement. box that you essentially using them as. batteries to generate money the whole. thing is fascinating that you brought. that up. um I read about that recently yeah and I. thought that I misread it. um that a. I did not understand the connection at. first it kind of went over my head that. a union. um would fight to keep marijuana. marijuana illegal until I started to.

like say well wait a second you're just. missing the obvious conclusion here one. of the obvious conclusions is. you know the leading the leading cause. of Contraband in prisons aren't like. family members stuffing things down. their pants and coming through it's. guards it's prison guards. um of course and you know I just think. that I guess where I get frustrated when. you said this is where it gets tricky. well it gets tricky for me and where I.

get frustrated and. um feel like. overwhelmed. I'm listening to the two of you speak. and thinking to myself you both get it. right the question becomes to me well. how do we make it happen so how do you. how do you rebuild a community like. Brownsville Brooklyn right everybody. knows Brownsville because Mike Tyson. comes from there Zab Judah comes from. there some pretty famous fighters come.

from there Biggie Smalls comes from. there uh Riddick Bowe. um and you know they're not going back. there Shannon Shannon Briggs let's go. champ Shannon shout out to Shannon yeah. that's my guy so I don't um. they they go back and try to do what. they can but you know it's like we'll. start with Brownsville. why how do we solve the problem is it us. trying to convince the owner of a sports.

team a billionaire a philanthropist. someone to go like let here's a plan. let's go to the mayor Eric Adams and. proposed this community center I mean I. just don't know what and and this is. like not this might be out of ignorance. for me because I can only take on what I. can take on I'm sure there's some people. out there trying to get this done. but I think the more influential voices. we can get behind an idea let's try this. experiment in one community.

I just I'm at a loss for. um I know what I know how to do I know. how to see a case and know that. someone's innocent and fight for it I. think I I feel like I know the right. levers to pull to get that done. it gets way more difficult and. intimidating to me trying to figure out. well how do we solve this bigger social. problem but I think it starts with. shows like this. conversation now from different walk to. life you know coming together and really.

talking about real issues so you know. it's really an honor to be here with you. Joe it's an honor to be in your Comedy. Club last night and it's definitely an. honor to be here it's an honor to be. here I really really appreciate it man. and it just gets the conversation out. there right and hopefully people will. hear the conversation and people will. begin to Galvanize and say well what can. we do at least the the thought is out. there is out there and it's we've put it. out there many times now and I feel very. blessed to be your friend and feel very. fortunate that you have uh you've come.

on here and and trusted this platform. with all these stories because it. changed the way I thought of our system. our legal justice system I I have a. completely different opinion after. having conversations with you and it's. not just me it's everybody who listened. to these conversations so you're talking. about millions and millions and millions. of people who've heard these. conversations now it's a crazy number. number and we've done a lot of them now. and we keep doing them and as we keep. doing them it gets out more and more and.

more and slowly but surely something's. going to happen it's going to have to if. we value Humanity if you we've we really. value our community which what is what. our country's supposed to be it's. supposed to be a United group of human. beings that's right it's supposed to be. a big community and we can isolate it. into neighborhoods we can isolated into. cities but reality we're supposed to be. on the same team if we're on the same. team if you care about these people how. how is it possible that you can continue. to ignore it decade after decade and.

it's going to take a lot of work this is. not going to be a thing that you're. going to fix because you have grown. people that have been indoctrinated in. these horrific ways and these people. have to somehow or another have hope to. change which is a big thing for people. it's hard for people to lose weight you. know it really is just stop eating food. is hard to do that's all you have to do. not do something that you know you. shouldn't be doing and it's hard to.

change your whole life if you've been. involved in gang banging and drug. dealing because you had no other options. and you had no other role models and you. had no other examples anywhere around. you of people that had hope and you felt. like well the rest of the world is. different and what we got here sucks and. that's just the way it is and I'm just. gonna be a part of it and that's how. human beings do we imitate our. atmosphere whether it's positive or. negative we're part of a tribe and this. tribe should be expended it should be. expanded to the whole [ __ ] world.

but at the very least we have to be an. example here in America we have a. possibility because of these kind of. conversations because this narrative we. have we have a possibility to change. particularly the way young people look. at it this idea that people that live. four blocks away are different than. people who live right next door is nuts. we're all just humans and if there is a. community that's [ __ ] it's better for. everyone if we chip in and do whatever. the [ __ ] it takes to to re-engineer that.

and it's going to take a long time. there's an old saying from gambling in. pool they would say you got to get. better the same way you got sick meaning. if you're gambling say if I got you. stuck like ten thousand dollars you're. like okay all or nothing like [ __ ] you. [ __ ] you double or nothing [ __ ] you we. play for a thousand dollars so then I. win 11 000 and then another thousand now. in 12th you can't just win one and get. it all back you gotta get better the. same way you got sick it's a long road.

Hey listen that's that's you made me. feel better both of you. so you know look there's no um I've you. know there's no magic bullet yeah. there's no Magic Bullet and and there's. always there any one size fits all no. and look I told absolutely I told Bruce. last night. um. you know it's an odd thing to get. recognized for. um but you know we're a bartender said. to me hey aren't you that guy that helps. get people out of jail and I was like.

man that felt so good right I don't know. where if he saw me on 2020 most. definitely it was probably on this. podcast or you know like I was pulling. into into the Aria in Vegas. and then um. you know the valet guy goes hey I aren't. you uh I've seen you before do you help. innocent people get out of jail I saw. you on Rogan I get that a lot and I. always take a minute to stop and say you. know.

do you want me to help you know point. you in the right direction of how you. can help I've had so many people take me. up on it so you guys made me feel better. I mean look I I just there are moments. where I feel like is the problem ever. gonna get. you know solve it is frustrating to me. so frustrating and that's why I'm so in. your debt because we Joe and I had this. idea. um Bruce you don't know this a couple of. years ago where you know he you know. committed to doing this once a quarter. and of course I thought really is he.

really going to do it and not only has. he done it but allow me to bring you. know an exonerion. um every time and you know first we had. Robert Jones and then Derek Hamilton and. now Bruce and and I hope that people not. only see the humanity in these men but. um. see the talent and see the I mean think. about these three men right Robert Jones. said I'm gonna one day get out of here. and put on a suit and come back in and. help the people that need help and he.

did it. Derek Hamilton known the country over as. probably the the the brightest legal. mind in the prison system. um. said one day I'm going to get out of. here and I'm going to help the people. inside and not only has he done it he's. like a he's like a meteor you know he's. like a streaking Comet of a human being. I've never seen anything like it. District Attorneys conviction Integrity. units when he calls they pick up the.

phone and they they have meetings a. district attorney in Manhattan. you know Alvin Bragg say what you want. about him my opinion is he picked up the. phone when Derek called about about. Sheldon Johnson and you know there was. this great group of lawyers called. um the Cal the center for appellate. litigation and they had brought the case. you know right to the goal line and they. said you know we need the DA's ear you.

know can you just sort of get this and. there's some great people in that office. Brian Crowe that really want to make a. difference and you know we met with the. D.A in Manhattan and he spoke to Derek. and then you know Sheldon gets released. um so yeah it does make a difference and. I think that for Bruce you know when I. heard about. some of the programs that he created. from on the inside can you tell Joe. about and the listeners about the gun.

buyback program and voices from from. within yeah voices from within I'll. start there um there's a group of men. that founded it prior to me coming into. sing-sing uh Lawrence Bradley John. Legend Velazquez they started this. program and it was a progressive program. that was designed to um they would they. wanted to uh redefine what it means to. pay a debt to society. um and they've been doing just that so. they began doing this Progressive work. inside and and created this event called.

choices which is choosing healthy. options and confronting every situation. and what they do with these choices. events is they bring in children whose. parents are incarcerated and then begin. you know having what they call playback. Theater which is they'll have a a young. person talk about a dilemma in their. life and then they'll have uh two of the. guys incarcerated actually play it out. so the person can actually visualize. what it is that they went through and.

see the opportunities that make better. choices. um so that's one of them and but also. the civic duty initiative we founded in. Sullivan myself and a guy named Joseph. Robinson and Stanley Bellamy who was. also just granted clemency he had 62. years he did 37. um what we did we begin you know finding. these poor impoverished communities and. whether they've been Upstate or in the. in the cities and decided that what. we're going to do is we're going to do a. a book drives we're going to raise money. in prison through these uh prison.

organizations to buy uh backpacks and. school supplies for children of. incarcerated parents. and we did just that we gave you know we. gave thousands of books away we raised. tons of money to uh to contribute to a. gun buyback hopefully but through a. church bomb in Albany with a reverend by. the name of Charles Muller who had a. program omnivus was being ravaged by. violence in his program had run out of. money and so I reached out to him and we. collaborated in Sullivan you know.

correctional facility and decided that. we're going to put out pull out. resources and see how we can come. together we also had him bring in some. young guys so that we can talk to about. youth violence. um and this has been going this. continues to go on right the youth. assistance program yeah that they have. both in sing-sing and then a few other. prisons in New York state I was on the. Yap team in sing-sing where they bring. in uh 30 Atlas youth. in my group I had you know I had some.

young kids that were. from El Salvador who were dealing with. um you know ms-13s and uh I had one. young guy one young girl tell me that. they had to leave El Salvador because. where they lived. you know their their friends were all in. gangs and what they did was they would. play soccer with the heads of the rival. gangs. um. and I had that that. made me cringe I had never heard.

anything like that until this and this. kid these kids were like 18 19. and they had to I literally leave the. country because. their family was like if they stay there. they have to be in a gang. I mean these these kids said that their. friends would literally play soccer with. the heads the decapitated heads of rival. gangs so these are some of the kids that. we've you know we've been able to reach. and talk to through the yacht program. um It's never enough because sometimes. they bring in.

kids that'll never be at risk sometimes. they bring in kids from. high-end society that have no business. coming in there they're going to be. successful right so you know sometimes. we have a little issue with that but the. other program is uh Children Of Promise. nycu I've been working with them for the. past decade can I stop you there yes why. are they bringing children from. privileged Society it makes absolutely. no sense I think that I for me if you. you want my personal opinion I think. that they bring them in to show them.

what they can do and what they can. control right you can possibly one day. be in control of a prison or. or a corporation because you're bringing. these kids from our society that. they literally never going to come. they're never going to see the inside of. a jail cell so they're bringing them in. so they get the inner workings of prison. so they could enter into the prison. industrial complex on some level on some. level but not become we know they're. never going to be incarcerated because.

it's a viable business it's not going. away it's never going away and you have. if you decide to go down that road you. have a guaranteed source of income I. mean the product that we made in New. York state prisoners go by the um it's. called core craft. this is on the stock market core craft. you know the core craft is making. upholstery in one person in Greenhaven. they make couches tables like this how. much do you guys get paid well they. might make 16 cents an hour. 10 cents an hour literally and they have. to do it oh yeah you don't go to program.

you um you go into the box and 2 000. guys refuse to go to uh to call craft. because they didn't want to build cells. they had a group of guys that found out. that there was steel coming off of the. van they unloaded a truck group of. prisoners were forced to unload a truck. and they realized what they were. unloading were bars. bars and doors and they said Hold on man. they opening up a shop. where we have to build cells.

so a few days later these guys says. we're not doing that we're not building. cells for our kids all these guys went. to the box and they shipped them from a. close a prison that's close to their. family Greenhaven they shipped them to. Clinton. in the Box for the lesson the box is. solitary confinement so that's it. to labor for 16 cents an hour you get. confined to solitary confinement yeah. you get a misbehavior report nine times. out of ten when you go for that.

misbehavior report you're found guilty. and you're penalized for not engaging in. slave wages slave labor that is a fact. this has gone. every prison uh when kovitz started a. lot of people don't know where the hand. sanitizer was coming from. it was coming from Great Meadows right. it was coming from Great Meadows and at. one point. you know Governor what was he had it on. the news we got a hand sanitizer the. guys are making and. this is this was for sale at one point I.

mean so that's another form of. extraordinary profit oh of course even. more profitable than making iPhones. which is wild because it's already evil. yeah I mean from everything from you you. go from. okay New York made 11 million bottles of. hand sanitizer now it has 700 000. gallons it can't get rid of. wow. they said they a spokesperson said he.

makes no apologies for single-handedly. solving a hand sanitizer shortage oh. really spokesperson hey how'd you do. that maybe you should make an apology. for how the [ __ ] you did that I. absolutely love this show that you can. pull this stuff up in real time yeah in. real time you can see guys like former. Queen's prosecutor John scopa. yeah and you can see what his conviction.

was and this is um. this is a guy that has a history of. doing this but just the decades this. core craft that's what it's called yeah. the fact that this is a profitable. entity that you could trade on the stock. market and the the very people that are. working there are essentially slaves. when it's not even essentially when. Stephen they're slaves when Stephen King. wrote Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank. Redemption which became the movie. Shawshank Redemption and there was a you. know the. part of the movie where they talked.

about the the work program and how some. genius figured out that there was cheap. labor to be had in prisons he didn't. base that off of some fictional whim you. know when he was up at night Chomp. chomping away on that typewriter. um that was based in this has been going. on for decades and decades and and you. know I think that um. it's it should shock people and it. should it should be a rallying cry.

um you know if you've never been in a. prison before. um and you know it's just sort of. occupies a space in your mind as it's. just a bad place that I don't want to be. in ever and I wouldn't want my family. member to be in that's okay you could. live your life that way. um but you can also take notice of the. fact that you know somewhere between. four and seven percent some estimates of. the people in there are innocent. and some of the other people that are in.

there just made a mistake and you don't. throw away a life because they made a. mistake. um and to and to see some of these. sentences. um you know 50 years 70 years and it's. not just in California where there was a. three strikes rule to see sentences. getting doled out that are de facto life. sentences to children to Children. um Michael Dawson Sheldon Johnson was uh.

I think 17. um or had just turned 18 and the guy. gets sentenced to 70 years on a first. offense look this is a beautiful moment. I don't know if Jamie has a picture I. sent it to him like two weeks after. Bruce got out. we got word that Sheldon was going to. get out and get re-sentenced. so Bruce said I want to be there when he. walks out. and you know he got oh. so that is them FaceTiming me as Sheldon.

walked out of the gate. and JJ Velazquez is is the other. Gentleman on the other side of Sheldon. JJ Velazquez is. you know it took one guy who believed in. JJ this this investigative reporter. called named Dan slepian. who believed in JJ amongst many other. people that believed in JJ JJ now goes. into sing-sing regularly and runs a.

program there called the Frederick. Douglass. project and he does it with. um the professor from Georgetown Mark. Howard and he goes in there and he. brings people in from the community. to try to show them the humanity that is. behind Prison Walls there there was over. a hundred years of of over incarceration. and wrongful incarceration in that a.

century in that picture. um it'd be nice it'd be nice to invite. Joe to go in one day. going with a JJ we tell JJ man we. offered we extended the offer to Joe. Rogan and his team to come into. sing-sing one day with the Frederick. Douglass project come in and meet some. guys and see and see what it's like we. should do that you know what else we. gotta do I gotta take a leak so let's. pause right here anybody needs a leak. we'll be right back all right sorry. what's up so did you find that dude this. is corrupt let's pull this guy up.

there look at that [ __ ] head. queensler convicted of robbing Witnesses. get 30-month sentence that's it that's. it that's it. so that guy put you away for 29 years. and he gets 30 days for being a piece of. [ __ ]. 30 months excuse me. whatever and he's done this for you know. to countless people Nathan may people. versus Gary Stedman 30 months prosecuted. in all those cases they all got out in. the old ghost cases were subsequently.

overturned how many cases do you think. this guy was involved with that were. dirty. to be honest with me countless because. even as a prosecutor and as a defense uh. attorney he's been around forever yes he. has countless lawsuits against him civil. litigations against him how crazy is. they only give that guy less than three. years well. look. it's crazy it's crazy no matter what any. way you look at it you know I am. the thing that gives me some hope in. situations like this is the current.

district attorney. um in Queens is a Woman by the name of. Melinda Katz. um and she did something pretty. extraordinary in this case which which. you know you have to recognize it when. it happens when. the governor is considering someone for. clemency they check with the District. Attorney's office where they were. convicted and. um. the Queens County District Attorney's. Office who is also reinvestigating.

Bruce's case it's conviction Integrity. unit is you know I mentioned earlier is. reinvestigating his case did not oppose. Bruce's Grant of clemency extremely rare. in a murder case where an 11 year old. boy was murdered for them to not oppose. so that's you know what I think that she. deserves a recognition for that her. office deserves recognition for that and. what we can hope is that we keep on. making.

um Believers out of them by presenting. cases like Bruce's uh you know. people like to. make broad generalizations whether it's. police officers prosecutors I think I. hate it when people do that about. anything. there's good and bad in all professions. and I just think that. you know when you see people trying to. make change happen even if it doesn't go. sometimes at the pace you want it to. happen at as long as it's moving in the. right direction.

it deserves to be recognized and. applauded so I just wanted to make sure. because it's easy to like see this guy. who was a former Queen's prosecutor and. then you know. make a dangerous leap that therefore all. prosecutors and queens are bad which is. not the case exactly he just says he. just happened to be a bad one. um. that finally got caught and it was. interesting. he didn't get caught until he was a. defense lawyer he became a criminal.

defense attorney and he got caught. bribing Witnesses in connection with a. defense case it's kind of ironic right. because. the other cases that were he was a. prosecutor and it got overturned he was. doing the same [ __ ] he didn't just come. down with a like uh like you come down. with a cold like a case of the bribes. one day you know he wasn't like oh this. sounds like a good [ __ ] idea this is. learned behavior this is the way he. learned to work the system in my humble. opinion. um and you think there's others like.

that I mean this goes back to the 80s. absolutely absolutely there's there's. others like that and it happened in New. York with the so-called mob cops right. scarcella and or how about that guy in. Pennsylvania that was uh. sending foster kids to jail are you. talking about the um um um kids for cash. with the private prisons yes until the. young kid killed himself he was a young. up and coming wrestler. and he was he was sent to jail for uh. for uh I think pushing his stepfather.

and cutting school so he sent him the. juvenile but what happened was in the. private prisons you had to maintain a. certain capacity you had to be filled to. like 80 capacity and what happened was. these judges if they were they were. charged with keeping these jails filled. right so as long as they kept them. filled they got a kick back. it's called kids for cash is a. documentary on it yeah I know yeah I. know about it you know it just when when. Joe asked me.

um and this happens and there's others. like it I think it goes down it comes. down to. um this. ugly part of of human nature. where you know I love the quote absolute. power corrupts absolutely but I also. think even a little bit of power can be. super dangerous sure and you know you. see it in you know all facets of life. people get a little bit of Fame they get. a little bit of notoriety or they get.

the ability. to have influence over someone else I'll. give you an example. as it relates to Bruce for people that. don't think that this doesn't happen as. soon as Bruce was granted clemency. all over the papers you know when a. governor grants clemency It's News. there's people that oppose it because. they get you know the 60 000 foot. um. news headline view of it and don't know. [ __ ] about the facts of the case how. could she have done that you know.

letting a killer out they have no idea. of course about this guy Scarborough. about any of the facts of his case. and the people that read those papers. are often Corrections Officers too. um and just to show you like the final. stretch of discipline I think for Bruce. is. you know. there's good Corrections Officers that. I'd go in and visit Bruce and knew what. we were doing. and knew what our what the promoter.

center for legal justice is about and. knew that Derek Hamilton used to be in. prison and turned you know his life into. basically a mission to help others that. have been wrongfully incarcerated or. just that need a second chance and there. are others. like the CEOs that find out he got. granted clemency. and don't want to see him go home that's. right and all of a sudden he starts. getting [ __ ] with by one corrections. officer that is baiting him. on a constant basis calling him the.

worst names you could possibly think of. trying to get Bruce to do something. so that it would somehow. um keep him in jail yeah keep him in. jail and it was happening so often. that one time. you know there was a lot of people. involved in the effort to get Bruce out. on clemency and legal aid and great. attorney named Elizabeth felber working. on his exoneration cases my co-counsel. but there were also students of mine.

right part of our legal justice center. is that we have a clinical program where. Derek and I teach these students we get. 10 a semester they have a a seminar. where they come in for two hours a week. that we teach in the law school. and. we teach them about all. disciplines of forensic science how it. goes wrong what to do if you spot it. whether you're a prosecutor or a defense. attorney how do if you're a prosecutor.

rely on it in a way that does it justice. in the name of science right there are. certain conclusions you can draw about. blood spatter you just can't make. ridiculous conclusions like saying what. instrument and from what angle in the. manner in which it was swung right so. you get my point but then they also have. 10 hours a week of field work where they. come to my office and do work on actual. cases so they worked on Bruce's case.

as did you know have a partnership with. Jay-Z. um and his mother they have the Sean. Carter Foundation we have the Josh Dubin. fellows at the Sean Carter Foundation. they worked on Bruce's case and they. wanted to meet Bruce. so they came in and met Bruce some of. them. um and some of my students came in. I hadn't really ever seen Bruce mad. exacerbated. um let's see them emotional but never.

losing his cool and I came in one day. and um. when you go to visit someone in a. Maximum Security Prison it's a it's a. real ordeal getting in. um and it's really sad you see families. coming in and it's very emotional. sometimes there's kids with them and you. know you would think as an attorney. or as law students you might get treated. a little different. but you come across the wrong CEO the.

wrong corrections officer. um yeah I don't like the way your shirt. saying to a female student is a little. bit too low or you're not wearing a bra. I mean it's kind of like like really. that's what you're saying and take your. pockets pull them out I want to see the. bottom of your feet you know. um. in any event we're waiting to get into. the visiting room and all of a sudden. there's this loud crash against the door. um it's behind bars and you know all of.

a sudden there's a lockdown because an. inmate. punched a female visitor in the face. and. you know and it was the person that was. visiting him and they were rewinding it. on the surveillance as we were waiting. so the students were already like wow. this is this is some crazy [ __ ]. and. then we get go in the visiting room. after they sort of cleared that. situation out after 40 minutes or so and.

Bruce came down. and you know he's he's as cordial. um as he is intelligent which is to say. he's always just super you know warm and. comforting and two of the students that. have worked on his case for quite a. while were in the the visiting room with. me and he sort of like blew past them. and said I can't take it anymore. everywhere I go every time I see this. corrections officer he is trying to goad. me he is trying to get me to do. something and I it was the closest I'd.

seen him to tears because of the prison. experience. um you know this guy still works there. absolutely and it was that it was during. a major lockdown. where uh over 200 incarcerated people. let's sing saying were brutalized it was. so bad that day they locked the prison. down. for about a week to bring in a special. search team. so when we will call for visits what.

they would do was they would have an. officer come to yourself get you. handcuff you and bring you to the. visiting room. I get called for a legal visit. who decides that they want to be the. officer to come and escort me. this officer John right that's had a. hard on for me for some reason he comes. so I'm like oh man I gotta visit now. this guy's gonna handcuff me and take me. so I can't even defend myself. because the prison was locked down and. in fact that was a major New York Times.

article as well. um the abuse that took place at. sing-sing in November of last year when. they locked the whole praise in prison. down that's the case that Bruce barkett. and the Epstein and uh Marty tankless. took on big article they came into the. prison shut it down and began picking. certain guys out cracking ribs cracking. heads open. just abusing guys so here this guy comes. to get me I had no idea it was you that. was on the visit but in my mind I'm.

saying I swear I hope it's my lawyer. coming to visit me man because this. guy's taking me so he's antagonizing me. hurry up or you won't go on your visit. and just jigging at me jigging at me. so I'm handcuffed and I'm maintaining my. composure I see a sergeant d'anto that's. a man. get your dog off me man um. so the sergeant knew me and he tried to. say something to the guy but the guy. he listened right then and there in.

route to the visiting room he steady. trying to go with me. trying to pull me out of my character. you know um. so it just became so. distressed so stressful man that's why I. came down there I was like man I was so. glad that it was you that came that day. but I was just glad that he didn't. actually put his because he was on the. verge of putting his hands on me if it. was in a i because I was handcuffed if I. say the area he would have definitely. jumped on me because it was open season. in November during that during that.

lockdown it was open season on guys in. The Joint I've had sing sing that day. for whatever reason that special team. came in and just started like crushing. people and some of these guys I'm. talking about a six eight six nine. they're from different prisons so they. come in with their military uniforms and. they're stomping they're stomping the. floor like they're doing a um like a. walk like they were like on a military. run. and they're pulling guys out to sell man. and they're crushing them so it was it. was a it was a moment for me because I.

had no idea how this guy was gonna. respond to how I was going to be able to. you know defend myself and I know I'm on. the verge of getting out right and I. know what he's trying to do so my mind. was just focused on getting out trying. my best not to pay this guy no mind but. it's hard. it's hard dealing with them in those. situation because they got the upper. hand. and. a lot of them are abusive because you. you can do that with him and like you. talked about power when when you can do.

things knowing that there'll be no. repercussions are you aware of the. Stanford Prison Experiment or very much. so yeah where they took the students. and they divided them into correction. offices and incarcerated people. um and what they did was. the officers took on the greatest group. of students took on the role of. correction officers and these group of. students took on the role of prisoners. and it became so intense I don't know if. you're familiar with this it became so. intense very much so.

the the group of students who were. acting as uh playing the role of. correction officers became so abusive. based on the false sense of power that. they literally had to end the study. they have to understand to stop it so. what is that this is the part where I. started. um it goes back to Power well yeah I. know this is the part where it gets me. feeling real shitty about Humanity. um because you see it even in. TSA agents you see it in you know last.

night we were going into the into a. place to eat and I I had the I had the. audacity to ask again where do you order. from. and the guy was working security at the. door. and what a shitty attitude he gave me. about it right like because he's The. Bouncer and I was like you know five or. six years ago I learned I learned the. strength in silence and I learned the.

strength and restraint. um because I was you're not gonna fix. that guy you don't have to respond right. right yeah I mean he's gonna be who he. is I've learned from being around people. you know like you and you've taught me a. lot about you know what it means to. really listen and you know sort of. impressing upon me how important martial. arts is right and just watching you move. you don't feel like you have to Peacock.

your accomplishments in front of us. because you have a sense of. um yeah security yeah um knowing who he. is watching guys like like James Prince. um who is so comfortable with the. silence. um because he doesn't need to show off. and I learned that it's the it's the. insecure Among Us it's the the weaker. Among Us that will either abuse the. power. um or or pop off. and the more I um.

exercise that restraint. and you know resist the urge. to say something back. uh the more gratified I feel afterwards. but what what bothers me. about this power thing that's fine I. could exercise restraint it's taken me. many years and a lot of therapy to get. there a lot of introspection but what. does that say about Humanity when you. have a bunch of kids that are at an Ivy.

League school a Stanford or not League. school I think it is. um and they're in it they know they're. in an experiment and they're given that. that taste and then they abuse it and I. see it at the airport with TSA agents I. see it you know if you make a kid a. safety patrol in an elementary school it. just seems to be. um something that has to be guarded and. approached a lot more. um. a lot more.

um a lot more carefully intentionally. and carefully yeah I worked as a. security guard when I was 19. at this. place called Great Woods Great Woods is. in Mansfield Massachusetts it's a. concert place. and almost immediately everyone on the. security team developed this attitude of. Us Versus Them the audience the people. that were coming to the show that were. all [ __ ] they were all they all. didn't listen you had to yell at them. you know tell them what to do and there. was a culture of doing that and these. people behaved almost exactly the way. you described in the Stanford Prison.

Experiment or you describe with cops in. some occasions these people they were. terrible to these people and it was. normal and I found myself doing it like. yelling at people and stuff and you. realize like what what is that like I. realized at 19 I was like what is this. weird inclination to like make it US. versus them like I go to concerts like I. could be them like I'm the same it's the. same person I'm only 19. none of this. makes any sense to me but there was a. clear natural pattern of behavior that. emerged that it emerges in war it.

emerges everywhere it emerges whenever. people have ultimate power over other. people and it's power that's not earned. that's a big part of it like to to be a. person that has that kind of power and. influence that is an extraordinary. position to be in and you have to be an. extraordinary human being to manage that. ethically and morally and most people. are not extraordinary that's the reality. so if you're given these jobs with the. you have this extraordinary. responsibility to people that have never. developed character they've never really.

developed compassion and a true empathy. for other people and a true. understanding of their strength and. they're always trying to Puff their. chest out they're always trying to. Peacock. that's the worst person to ever have. that position because now they have this. unqualified position of power they. didn't do anything to earn it but they. have it and they want people to listen. if you don't [ __ ] listen no you have. to listen you have to listen yes that's. what it is you have to listen I mean is. it is it natural or are they socialized.

into thinking this is how a correction. officer is supposed to act because we've. been taught that this is how he acts. right we've been taught that a bouncer. has to be this way and it's tough and he. has to have this attitude of US versus. them so I'm not sure if it's a natural. inclination as much as I think it's. we're socializing to believing that. there's that but this is also is another. element the other element is the person. that's in that position of power. particularly police officers. you're dealing with an input of.

negativity and people lying to you and. people committing crimes that's never. ending you want to talk about PTSD I. mean guys go in combat and they come. back with PTSD and we recognize that we. recognize it we understand it we don't. think the cops that way how many cops. have PTSD how many cops are terrified. every day every time they pull someone. over how many cops are deeply ingrained. in this blue gang this US versus them. mentality and they you ever see the.

seven five the documentary on Michael. Dowd yes yes you reckon you recommended. it holy [ __ ] it's about a super corrupt. uh Precinct in New York Brooklyn yeah. yeah yeah it's amazing it's amazing. documentary but this guy first day on. the job Witnesses someone get murdered. Witnesses and they shut the [ __ ] up they. threw a guy out a window like you know. like you shut the [ __ ] up and it's like. I guess I shut the [ __ ] up and like this. is what we do stealing money from drug. dealers like setting up hits I mean it. was all inside the the business maybe we.

have to rethink. um the way we we teach people because. I think that um. I think it's a combination of what both. I think it's innate unfortunately in. human beings because but not with. everybody it's innate with people to get. unqualified that's right well look. maybe there needs to be. there needs to be not maybe there needs. to be. um better training of law enforcement.

for sure because they need to be you. know desensitized or sensitized you know. whatever their background is needs to be. taken into consideration but I couldn't. agree with you more you know I can't. stand. when people that are so far left start. talking categorically about police. officers what. a hard job and of course there's great. cops out I mean you know so I look I. went through it myself recently.

um teaching. I had done one-offs before but I never. taught consistently. and I'm looking at these young future. lawyers and they look up to you just. because you're the professor and I had. this moment. um and it took a lot of work for me and. and a lot of therapy and deep. introspection and a particularly. humbling experience for me to really. take a long hard look and say who are. you Josh and who do you want to be I had.

always equated. vulnerability with weakness. my probably my whole life. um and I you know there's there's issues. tied up with my father and all kinds of. [ __ ] that that that sort of led me that. way to thinking that way and I don't. know if I told you this Bruce but. um I had a moment with with you actually. in public where I had to fight the urge. um my instinct told me don't do this and.

then my sort of. um. my new project. of sort of Reinventing myself and how I. think and sort of having this as close. to an Awakening as I could have. um sort of one the day for me and said. it's okay you know I had Bruce come to. my class at Cardozo law school and teach. um four days after he got out.

I wanted him to the students to see the. fruits of their labor. because some of them hadn't met him yet. and. um he came to my class. and. you know like the faculty was cheering. when he came in it was a really a. beautiful moment and he came and sat in. front of a group of lawyers. um Jamie I think I sent you a picture of. this also this is an extraordinary. moment for me. I am. I sat next to him and.

I was so overcome with emotion and I was. like I bit a hole on my bottom lip. because I was trying to fight this. feeling of. guilt that I had for letting this man. sit there for four years and I didn't. write him back. and I had never addressed it with him. and I um. I apologize to him in front of the class. and I just started weeping.

um. and I felt so good that I allowed myself. to be vulnerable in front of these. students. and I gotta tell you I I felt a shift in. the way they looked at me from that. moment. I wanted them to know that it was okay. to be vulnerable and that just because I. have a quote-unquote position of power. that they need not look at me as being. on some sort of pedestal. I started sitting sometimes in class so.

I could be at eye level with them. because I read a lot about. you know being a young father how. sometimes just getting on a knee and. being at eye level with an adolescent. um changes the dynamic when you're. trying to teach them or discipline them. and it was uh. you know it was like a. a great moment I felt more like a man in. that moment. more like a man a strong man in that.

moment than I have you know and many. other times in my life when I thought I. was being cool or really filling some. insecure void in me yeah you know and. and that's something that I've learned. dealing with guys like Derek Bruce a lot. of other exoneries this is a big strong. man right. um. and. he's one of the more vulnerable people. I've I've met. authentic allows himself to cry when the.

feelings come over him. um I've seen you do it you know it's the. strong and secure Among Us that I I. think you're there's a long way of. saying I agree with you that I think if. we teach our kids more. that just because someone is in a. position of power doesn't make them. better or more commanding and if you. were ever put in that position of power. you remember what it's like to be on the. other side of it. um I really go to Great Lengths to try.

to do that with my children with my. students am I perfect at it. no way I'm trying though and maybe you. know the more we we do that with. how great is it when a police officer. helps you you know it feels great. um and I had some help with the ATM call. I remember on my first day coming and. taking the train right you came over you. need some help with that buddy I said. yeah and you had every and you had every. reason not to want to trust them of.

course it wasn't it was your your M your. MTA car to get on the subway yeah. because when he was before he was in. there was no. tokens yeah. it's it's hard it's hard to get your. [ __ ] together and there's no guidebook. it's why it's why one of the things. before I came home one of the things. that Josh said to me. he says what's the one thing that I can. do for you that I can help you with. and.

I thought about it and I said the most. important thing is. therapy. I need a therapist because like you said. PTSD right the trauma that we experience. from being. kidnapped for 20 something years the. trauma that you experience from being. behind Prison Walls and being. dehumanized and and being labeled the. number for decades as opposed to being a. human right see it's easy to dehumanize. the first they dehumanize you right and. they take that from you and they and.

then you begin to internalize that and. feel this way about yourself. feel like you're less than so I asked. Josh I said therapy and uh and I think. that kind of surprised you when I said. that. it did. um. it surprised me in that um. you know it surprised me and it didn't. um I think you know Bruce is like a. highly evolved person for the the. especially considering the circumstances.

but your emotional intelligence. um you know is such that it shouldn't. have surprised me as much as it did but. it's very rare for me. um just in my own experience for people. to get exonerated or serve long prison. sentences to recognize that they need. that I mean for me it it it's had such a. profound impact in my life to have a. person to speak to that understands how. the human mind works and what human.

psychology is some people don't believe. in therapy I'm a strong believer and if. you get the right therapist and you're. willing to take that Journey. um you know it it can be I feel like. it's like going to the gym for your mind. like the feeling that you get after you. go to the gym and you feel like that. release of endorphins and whatever or. else gets released which I'm sure Joe. Knows way better than I do but uh you. know I just feel that way from my mind. and being able to trace back sort of.

like where my trauma comes from and you. know we all have trauma as human beings. it's been. um you know it surprised me but it. didn't I'm grateful that you you know. entrusted me to to help you with it and. I think that you know more people that. you know that we read these stories. about the wrongfully incarcerated. um. and they seem like feel-good stories. right. but the the sad truth is that the vast.

majority of my clients that get out. struggle terribly. when they get out. there's just no way to undo the. psychological and psychiatric damage you. could hope to. keep it in check. um but you know the vast majority of. them struggle really terribly with PTSD. social anxiety general anxiety. um difficulty sleeping difficulty. trusting. um and a whole Litany of issues that was.

why it was so great to see you just out. last night smiling and you know you had. a couple of the top of the line comedian. the guys deserved to be on to have their. own show them guys are funny man you. know that was that was good man but at. least I didn't ask you what what the guy. at what the guy says oh you got to take. him to a strip club at least the average. guy that comes out here he normally says. what's the first thing they asked for I. mean you got to take me to a strip joint. man yeah it was like well the person.

will remain nameless but I was like nah. I was like actually that sounds like. Tony inch left I'm not gonna say who but. um I was like actually nah not only do I. not want to go there because I find them. to be sad places with you know girls. that probably have a lot of trauma but. more importantly he doesn't want to go. there you know and he was explaining to. me. um. it was interesting he had dinner with.

someone that had gotten out recently and. he said this guy reeked of the. penitentiary and I don't want to give. off that Vibe I have a second chance to. re-invent myself. um and I just think it just speaks. volumes about him not that he should be. like applauded for not wanting to go to. a strip club right when he gets out some. people want to do that and that's cool. yeah. they got to make their dollars too yeah. also you're still on this path of.

improvement yes you're out but now. you're on a more free path of. improvement and why divert why divert. that that's right. and like I said you know I made a. decision that prison wasn't going to. Define who I was Nor what I can become. so you know once you begin that process. and you say I want to take this. particular path. you got to go all the way with it and. I'm one of them guys one time I'm in I'm. in. I'm going all the way with it because. once you begin to really reflect and you.

become aware of how you've been duped by. the system. and how the system was designed to. continue to do that and to create this. permanent underclass because that's what. it does right it creates a permanent. underclass. so you got a group of formerly. incarcerated guys who uh. many of them still dealing with dyslexia. they can't really can't get educated uh. many of them are still dealing with. barriers towards getting a decent job a.

lot of them can't go back to the housing. projects because you know if you're. convicted from projects oftentimes they. didn't want to allow you back there you. know to live to reside there really yeah. um so now so now you have to find. housing somewhere and and you're limited. to a menial job with the lack of. education do you know jelly roll you. know the musician jelly roll. no fantastic guy. um got arrested for uh armed robbery. when he was 15. uh wound up doing time.

gets out turns his life around becomes. this Mega huge artist I mean he's he. just won he does like his some of his. music is countries some of his music is. hip-hop it's like it's like country hip. hop it's all kinds of his voice is. Sensational and he's such a good dude. such a good dude I'm just an assault of. the earth person. he couldn't buy this house that he. wanted I mean this is a guy who won.

three uh Country Music Awards just this. year he came it was in Austin he came to. the Mothership that night on cloud nine. because he wins these Awards comes to. see Ron White and then finds out that. this house that he thought he was buying. you can't buy now because he's a felon. are you serious he won't they won't let. him in the community it's a gated. community on a golf course this. beautiful house his dream house this. guy's been out for a long time he's been.

a productive member Society not just. productive but he's a massive celebrity. and a great guy. like you would want him as your neighbor. it breaks my heart to hear stuff like. that he was convicted at 15 huh he's a. grown ass man he wasn't him carrying the. gun with somebody else he was there the. whole thing was a disaster hanging out. with the wrong kids young and dumb not. raised well you know it was just like it. tells a story about his childhood it's. just it's horrific he's just he's a guy. who pulled himself out and there's.

people who still don't want to believe. just meet the guy just go meet he's got. tattoos all over his face you know. people get weirded out by him yeah just. go listen his motherfucker's voice. is he singing in this. [Music]. this is the Ryman right he's playing in. Nashville at the [ __ ] Grand Ole Opry. the man is amazing get his jelly roll I. love it but.

a great guy unbelievable like you would. want him. in your community so this is. underscoring the point that we made. earlier right. it should not take. being wrongfully incarcerated for Bruce. Brian to lose to to realize his. potential. it shouldn't take wrongful incarceration. for Derek Hamilton and the scores of. other people that realize their. potential. um there should be opportunities as. their children right if you give people.

a path and they learn during that path. that it feels good to improve and grow. that is like the most important thing. you could teach a child that you want to. if you you want to have be lost don't do. anything if you want to be depressed. don't do anything that's right but if. you find something that you really in. love and you do it and you pursue it and. you get better at things you get better. being a person you get better at all. things and there's a great value in that. and it's difficult and it's it has to be. difficult because if you don't struggle.

you don't grow and no one teaches people. that no one teaches kids that no one. teaches that there's a there there's a. beneficial kind of struggle and you have. to like become disciplined and you have. to become you have to have a mindset of. improvement and you have to understand. that you are very blessed to be a human. being that's existing in this incredible. time 2023 and you live in America go get. it and somebody needs to guide people. they need to be there you need like real. mentorship you need you need hope you.

need a place where someone can go when. shit's [ __ ] you need like real. guidance it could be done it can be done. look it's like. my mom was my hero in in ways in which. mothers can be heroes to kids but for. for me it was something additional we go. into the community. she was a fourth grade teacher and she. taught kids that had you know education. or special needs. um you know learning disabilities and. she we would run into to her former.

students and they'd come up to her with. a tear in their eye. um or give her a hug and a kiss and say. they called her doobie all her kids. called you know my last name can be do. [ __ ] doobie dubes people used to play. with it a lot more my mama was you know. all her students called too but you'd. save my you know you changed my life and. I so I always have had deep reverence. for teachers. and I had this experience with my son. where. he I think he was in kindergarten or pre.

he might have been in like Pre-K. and here I am a civil rights attorney. and I remember him coming home in pre-k. you're like four. and he's telling me about Martin Luther. King getting killed. um and. I remember thinking to myself. God that's so so young for him to be. learning about death and. isn't this too young and I had a great. rapport with his teacher.

um. really awesome guy named olubala. still at the elementary school where my. son won and I went and spoke to him. about it. and uh he pulled me down the hall. and he said listen. I've been. watching. um the way. African-American men have been treated.

my whole life you know he's an. African-American man and he said and. the only way I know how to try to write. this. is to help create different human beings. you know a different kind of human. beings that understands. empathy. Young. and then I read the book that they were. reading and it was so [ __ ]. appropriate and I felt really idiotic in. that moment because everything the way.

that he articulated it to me was you. know I want them to understand now. um the difference is beautiful and to be. celebrated just as I know you teach them. at home and. um. that stuck with me I mean my son's 11. now this is you know seven years ago and. it stuck with me and every time I see. him. and he said to me sometimes he didn't. know what I did at that time. um every time I see him I said man I'll. never forget what you said to me it.

really like changed my perspective on. how how important it is to teach our. kids at a young age. that difference is good. and it means strength to be vulnerable. and that power is not something to be. abused it is something to be treated you. know with with the intention to help. other people to provide a service right. um so yeah there's something that we can. all do having children and bringing a.

human being into the world is uh that. should be like such a sacred thing it's. you know so I feel like I get you know. my advice that I get on parenting is. from people that are sometimes younger. than me but had kids earlier you know. like some of the best parenting advice I. got was from Andre Ward. he he's 10 years younger than me but he. had teenage kids when my kids were. babies and I just loved to watch him as. a father.

um but it's another good example that's. a guy who's gone through the fire right. this is a guy's developed character. through struggle and through. accomplishment right and that's why he's. that guy and sports is one of the great. ways to do that especially Combat Sports. the problem is there's also the the. downsides of it the people that don't. make it the people that get brain damage. to people that get [ __ ] up there's. that too that's real you know it's not a. it's not a [ __ ] 100 path if you.

choose Combat Sports but if you do. choose Combat Sports and you become an. Andre Ward that's an exceptional human. being that's a guy who won World titles. with one arm yeah not only that but. you know was from the worst possible. situation in the worst circumstances. with you know parents that had real. struggles. um a biracial kid that you know was like. sometimes very confused about you know. his where where he fit in and um you.

know that's why I like to surround. myself with people like him because he's. just you know he's a beautiful parent. he's a beautiful husband you know and he. does so many great things even his. response when Canelo knocked out kovalev. and they offer him a big money fight. with Canelo while he's still in his. athletic Prime he says like I think I. served boxing better as a commentator. this is a guy you know they're probably. throw a millions of dollars out of. millions and millions of dollars many. many many many big many millions. probably the biggest payday of his.

career yeah and he's like you know what. I think I did it I'm done I've won gold. medal in the Olympics I won two Division. World Champion that's it undefeated. that's it takes a lot of that's an. incredible character yeah it's a guy. that's grounded man yeah but you know. there's no growth without without pain. right growth comes at pain yeah anything. you know they tell you that in physical. condition right no pain no gain right. you got to rip that muscle.

you can't think you're gonna live an. easy life and that life's gonna be. exemplary it's not going to be that's. right see my question for you Bruce is. you know having been out three and a. half weeks four weeks. um. are you. um. are you feeling overwhelmed. not at all I'm feeling good I'm feeling. great I'm here with you and Joe Hogan we. just went at a comedy night last night I. got a good night if anybody met you they. would have never guessed in a million. years you just look like a dude who's.

seen his friend I haven't seen your. friend a while out having a good time. big smiles all around nobody would have. guessed three and a half weeks ago. you're incarcerated no one. the way you handle yourself is. incredible I appreciate that man it's. incredible. the lack of bitterness just the sheer. joy that you have just interacting with. people you know it's it's amazing life. is about relationships man. if I can sum it up in one word it would. be quality relationships and that's what.

life is about and you can't build those. relationships being bitter bitterness. only consumes you yeah right you know. there's a there's a study that came out. recently I won't I'll get it wrong if I. try to attribute a source but there was. a study that came out recently about. longevity. um and happiness. who lives the longest and who lives the. happiest lives and it's the people that. have a close personal relationships. right have you read about this and um.

yeah that that's hit home for me. um. you know lately more than anything is. that having a few good quality people. around you just makes you it propels you. forward people that are happy for your. success that propels you forward not. looking to you know tear you down which. brings us back to these communities that. have been just immersed in violence and. crime forever you know there was a guy. we had on way back in the day who was a.

cop in Baltimore and one of the things. they found while he was on the job was a. docket it was a list of crimes that were. committed in like 1976. it was all the. same crimes in all the same areas and. this just like feeling of futility just. like this feeling washer like what what. are we doing like what is this this is. insane like this is not this is not. fixing anything this is not you're not. making it better Malcolm Gladwell wrote.

about that in one of his books I don't. know if it was outliers or one of his. books about it David and Goliath yeah. maybe it was that. um and he talked about Baltimore. specifically about how it's the same. point you made earlier that the vast. majority of the prison population in New. York comes from the same seven. neighborhoods so we know what the. problem is look maybe maybe the best. um thing to come out of today for me. personally. is the the fact that um in times where I.

feel like is it enough it is enough this. show is enough I mean the doing this. work brings you into a community of. people you know and I would encourage. folks listening to this that get sort of. like intimidated or like I don't know. anything about that you'll find a. community of just great people that's. right that want to help like there's. this um. this photographer named Rick winter. who is a super well-regarded famous dude.

he's taken these iconic portraits of of. like Christopher Walken and a whole. bunch of other celebrities and you know. my wife. um somehow you know was referred to him. to take headshots of Derek and I for the. opening of our Center. and his style is that he gets to know. you and talk to you as he's. photographing you. and he was so moved by the work and just. meeting I think it was really meeting.

Derek right. um. that you know he kept in touch with me. and said I have this great idea. um for a project that I want to do. as you get people out when you find out. you're going to get them out I'd like to. go interview them. in prison. and then capture sort of the contrast. between. them being inside and then them getting. out. so it seemed pretty ambitious to me.

because most prisons aren't letting some. photographer in with a film crew to film. people. and he was super persistent and. um you could see that like how inspired. he was to do it and his agent told me. um you know I've never seen him this. dedicated to something and and you speak. to the guy and he's sort of infectious. in his in his humility you know there's. something special about him so I floated.

the idea to Bruce and Bruce was like. yeah let me you know let me meet him. so he's now embarked on. um. creating a documentary about Bruce and. our our first three releases. so he sent me a trailer to this. documentary that he's working on with. Bruce. um and I think it's a good sort of. summary of what we've been talking about. would you mind if I should.

foreign. I don't know if you're familiar with the. Powerball the dandelion and the wild. Orchard. well the wild Orchard it only thrives. and grows in a particular environment. right a dandelion can thrive in just. about any environment so sometimes into. snow outside and the snow will melt and. you see a dandelion just coming through. the grass or the crack in the concrete. right so I decided that you know I had. to be that dandelion I was going to. thrive despite where I was at.

when they took him. they took me. I get them back. whether you guilty or not you still want. to honor the potential of that life that. was lost. despite being not guilty incarceration. was always in some way trying to honor. the potential of Travis living. you got to be there to support him no.

matter what he deserves everything. that's going to be coming to him. foreign. hugging my mother and seeing my mother.

is going to be the joy of my life and. seeing them. this is going to be the joy of my life. right. mommy mommy. [Laughter]. [Music]. man I can't even describe it.

I'm excited I feel the love and the. support and I'm just. free with no comfort zone I feel free. [Music]. I feel like a load was lifted off of my. shoulder. like I can relax now I realized that a. lot of times I've been tense my. shoulders are up but they just were able. to just drop down without me even. acknowledging it and realizing it it. just dropped down and I'm just so happy.

to see how my mother. thank you. so yes I have tremendous regrets. the course of my life I've learned that. I can have those regrets and still love. what I see when I look in the mirror. because I've done the work to become. better than I was yesterday. I'm still able to to live and do and be. better and more than I was before so I. accept my regrets and I still love what. I see when I look in the mirror and I.

try to just live each day better and do. better right because if you want more. you got to be more. just those quotes right there are so. powerful. whoo. it's a deer. it's amazing. yeah so this is the trailer and when. will this whole thing come out it's a. work in progress. um you know for those of you that um.

want to help look there's a GoFundMe for. Bruce Bryan it's interesting you saw the. T disappear at the end. I always knew him as Bruce Bryant with a. T at the end that's not his name that. was the name the prison gave him they. added a t that was why it disappears at. the end. um. so there is no more Bruce Bryant that. was the the prison version of him he has. an Instagram it's at Bruce dot Brian.

b-r-y-a-n-24. um on his Instagram we will have a link. to his GoFundMe. um he has any little bit helps Bruce is. trying to get back on his feet uh. there's there's his GoFundMe. um so. you know and for those of you that want. to get involved in any way I try to. answer as many of your messages as I can. I have a lot more help now because we. have the center. um but you know whether it's writing to.

the district attorney of Alameda County. Pamela price. um reaching out to Bruce and making a. donation on his GoFundMe page even just. dropping him a nice line so many of the. people that were there the day he got. released. um. you know it's it was it's almost like. hanging around with you or you never. know if there's going to be someone. interesting hanging around we were. talking to one of the comedians last. night he's like you know I'll be hanging.

out with someone and not know that they. mapped the human genome. yeah and bring some weird people to. agree with him and uh it was the same. thing like on the day of Bruce's release. um. I would see these people and say how do. you know Bruce oh um he reached out to. me because he saw he read an article. about the work I do or I reached out to. him because I I read an article about. him and you know what you come to find.

is that he he is. um. somebody that holds on to relationships. and and good people and you know those. good people will continue to get him. through. um I uh. I just can't thank you enough for giving. us again this platform and I vowed that. every time I come on I'm gonna have a. new person to hopefully inspire people. and um you know keep telling these. stories until the grains of.

sand on the beach start to keep on you. know build and maybe we'll be on here. talking about a new community center in. Brownsville you know or a program that. we start to help that's right teach kids. a different way well we're not going to. stop well I I can't tell you how uh. every time I come on here. tell myself that's the last time I'm. crying. um but thank thank you so much for. having us and uh it's my pleasure. allowing us to tell these stories it's.

just uh. it's really important yeah listen I. never. anticipated in a million years of this. podcast would be anything remotely. close to what it is and if I can take. what that is that platform and use it to. highlight things like what you're doing. and what you've done. I mean. there's nothing nothing more important. thank you so much Joe man thank you it's. nothing more important than what you're.

doing getting this voice out you know. giving us a voice to share with the. people inspiring and encouraging people. to get involved man. contributing to humanity man because. it's going to take all hands on that. I think you're right you know the best. of us got to help Inspire the rest of us. and you're one of the best of us man. just like Josh's man you guys are some. of the best of us and it's going to take. you all to inspire the rest of us and. you know you got a team player here man. I think what we're talking about when.

we're talking about Community we're. talking about having people in your life. that um that inspire you and have people. in your life that you admire and it's. this is also a part of that Community. this this podcast all these podcasts. they they they're a part of people's. lives. if they don't. even if they don't know anybody like. that where they are they're filled with. despair they're in a place of no hope. you still know now that it's out there.

that's right. it's out there there's been the reality. is we need each other we need each other. what are we if not but for the. collective we're nothing but nothing no. one knows more than you when you get put. in a hole Yeah it's the worst thing they. can do to you I mean you're locked up. with with murderers and convicts and the. worst punishment they could give you is. leave you alone. your beautiful man Joe really how are. you so are you both you guys I just want. to extend my my gratitude man and just.

you know my oceans of gratitude to you. man the deepest appreciation before I. have the deepest Impressions from. YouTube it's my pleasure hopefully this. is just the beginning and we can. continue to do 100 more work and uh Josh. and I be back at the comedy club again. all this crime we need to get some more. lives we got to get domini to do a set. yeah yeah do some magic up there I think. also it's like you know these. conversations are infectious they. they're contagious and they spread and.

and people understand things now that. they didn't understand before trusting. these conversations that we had is. people have some people have very. callous views of things that don't. affect them personally. you know and this this gives them an. opportunity to see see things in a very. different way so thank you thank you. thank you all right let's wrap this up. before we cry again. bye everybody bye everybody thank you. [Music]. [Applause].

[Music].