Joe Rogan Experience #1988 - James Reed

[Music]. by night. all right sir it's going again what uh. incredible piece of work you put. together I mean that was I'm so. impressed and I I loved it so much I. mean I don't even know where to begin. and well I'm very pleased you liked it. uh you you tell me what do you want to.

begin where did it how did it start like. how long did it take first of all to get. embedded to the point where they allowed. you to be around them like that. okay so I mean we should tell everybody. it's uh chimp Empire it's chimp Empire. yeah so four part series chronic. chronicling the this unusual period and. then go go chimpanzees lives right. um so we we're very very lucky basically.

there's there's a scientific project out. there that's been working and go go for. almost 30 years now so scientists when. they first arrived. the the chimpanzees were not habituated. to humans at all so they kind of came. knowing the war's a big group of chimps. out there and but they but they didn't. know anything about how many there were. or who they were. and and they had to go through this. process of habituation which which. basically means sort of following them.

around and getting them used to humans. observing them so in those early days. The Chimps would just run off they'd. have total fear for for humans so they. weren't even able to to see them let. alone study them but that that sort of. they gradually overcame that fear and. and to the point where the scientists. can just arrive with their notebooks and. gently follow them around kind of within. the group every day so after years of. doing that it makes it possible for a.

film crew to to come in and kind of. literally walk in their footsteps so so. that that process of actually being. accepted into the chimpanzees group was. sort of we had this we had this previous. scientific project that enabled us to do. that. um and in terms of for the for the. series. um we had like 400 filming days we knew. that we wanted to be sort of observing. them from in detail and from sort of. within the group and yeah we were able.

to do that with a great crew lightweight. equipment and sort of followed them. around constantly for about 400 Days wow. I mean the footage you guys acquired. it's it's really amazing it's I've never. seen anything like it it's like it's. like a chimp was carrying around a. camera I mean was there any moment where. they interacted with you guys where you. thought like maybe you were threatened. or in danger.

you know there's yeah if if you're. filming lines or something from from a. sort of safari vehicle you you film them. with a with a long lens and you're kind. of spying on them from a distance so. they they might sort of clock that. you're in a car from a long way away but. you're you're observing them and you're. you're kind of not part of it you're. looking in from the outside. with chimps partly because of the the. habitat they were they they live in. right it's it's a dense rainforest so if.

you were 50 meters away you can't see. anything so you need to be close to The. Chimps to to observe and film them. and and also wouldn't be a good idea to. try and creep around and and hide from. them they they wouldn't like that so you. sort of you you peacefully gently kind. of make your presence known and they. sort of they they acknowledge you when. you turn up they're certainly sort of. checking you out. um but then they go about their daily. business and it is it's incredible how.

little interaction they have and and how. little that they sort of ever. ever even come close to interacting with. you wow but what about if you have food. or something that they want do they get. curious about things like that you know. they're very careful there not that but. the scientists for years have sort of. made sure that you know the strict rules. that you you can't take you you take. food in but it's in concealed containers.

you don't eat in front of the chimps. that that's exactly the sort of thing. that could cause a situation if there. was some association with food or. something that you had that they wanted. so that's really carefully managed and. there's it you know they don't associate. you with food and they just treat you as. a sort of passive Observer. having said that you know you are you're. right in there and you know they could. be just sitting around peacefully sort.

of playing or grooming each other all. they could be doing something quite. aggressive and they could be fighting or. they could be patrolling for another. group or or hunting and then. even though none of it is sort of. targeted at you they are behaving in in. a way that can be quite intimidating. around you. was what was I mean I think the most. disturbing thing to me with chimps is. well there's two things one that they. murder each other but two the hunting of.

the monkeys. watching them hunt and kill and eat. monkeys is so weird for I mean I think. was David Attenborough the first one to. capture that on film. I don't know whether he was the first. one actually I think Jane Goodall back. in the day when she was doing the gum. well she still has the gunboy chimp site. but I think she and maybe a nachio team. I think they sort of documented it for.

the first time. um and at that point nobody knew this. this happened and then I think on a. David Attenborough project it was. documented as well. button and go go you know they they're. the biggest group ever known and they. are very strong and powerful group and. there's a lot of males and it is often. the males that are involved in the. hunting and they have taken hunting. monkeys to a to another level. was that what is that like to witness.

live because primates eating primates I. don't know why but it's just it it. doesn't feel right visceral reactions I. think yeah it feels you know because you. kind of group you group primates. together yeah and we're sort of separate. in a way that's how you think of them. anyway. and I think also you spend so many you. know if you're interested in chimps or. you spend time around them you can't. you're constantly making connections.

between you and them so you're feeling. even though it's kind of a one-way thing. you're feeling those similarities all. the time and then. you but then you see how they behave to. other primates and and it's quite it's. shocking you you can't believe that as. sophisticated as they are and how. connected you feel to them. you know they they they don't feel that. sort of level of compassion or empathy.

for for other primates at all and they. are yeah they they hunt them regularly. yeah how many did you witness them kill. it was it was quite a lot I mean you. know we've it's a completely sort of. true authentic story that we documented. so so everything in there is is what. happened and in in the order that it. happened but obviously we were there for. 400 days so there's quite a lot of. things that we filmed that didn't make. it in now we didn't keep anything back.

that we thought was relevant to the. story but there are sometimes other. examples or other hunts for hunts is a. really good example you know we didn't. we didn't put in the series every time. they hunted a monkey because it would be. a lot of hunting monkeys. we saw it quite a lot. um. you know I remember on the on the second. shoot but it was the first time the a. new camera crew had had come out and I. was with one of the camera women.

Lauren and she she was really. experienced women in filming in hostile. and remote locations but it never filmed. Champs before and wasn't really used to. the environment. and I don't know first day out they they. hunted a big black and white Columbus. monkey and you know I mean it's. everything that goes along with it it's. the sort of the the cooperation the the. teamwork. um you know there's a tension in in the.

air when you know that they're going to. hunt they've decided to hunt but it's. not on yet and they're sort of moving. around the forest trying to get in a in. a position where they can successfully. catch this monkey. but then once they go for it and then. they're just chasing it and it and it. and it's chaos and you know they they. are organized in a way they know exactly. what they're doing but you're sort of. running around after it and you quite. often don't know. don't know exactly what's happening.

where's the monkey where are the chimps. and she she was just like. where am I like what what have I got. myself into but she was absolutely. amazing because she sort of you know. held the shots and and a lot of what she. filmed that day is in the series. actually but. I don't know the energy when you're. there and you're watching it the. the energy of the whole thing takes over. and you know maybe this isn't a good. thing but I think when you have seen it. quite a few times and you accept it as.

part of the the natural relationship. between these two species you do become. slightly desensitized to it. um and yeah I remember first time I saw. it being being very shocked but once. you've seen it quite a lot and you know. it's a natural part of their lives you. yeah you don't you don't feel the same. way about it actually is that their. preferred food do you think. well they they're mainly fruit eaters. ripe fruit Specialists so you know their. territory is is filled with uh fruiting.

trees and those trees brewed at. different times and at different cycles. and they have this incredible knowledge. of of all the trees that are in their. territory and and they have a good idea. about when they're going to come into. Fruit as well so they're always moving. around this vast territory and sort of. checking out what's in fruit and what. isn't and they'll know that some things. that's not quite it's not quite right. yeah it's not but but that'll that'll.

stay there and they'll come back and. they'll they'll feed off that tree in. the in in the days immediately after. so that's really that's that's they have. to survive they they depend on fruit. monkeys seem to Provo provide a sort of. a a different uh purpose in in the. chimpanzee Community they're definitely. valuable from a nutritional point of. view but there seems to be other things. going on as to why they hunt and you.

know. I don't know I'm going to use some of. the wrong terms here that scientists. probably wouldn't uh wouldn't support. but they do seem to enjoy it it does. seem to provide some sort of Cooperative. function you know it's not it's not. sport but at the same time. you know it's it's not purely for. survival it's the there's something else. there and I think in in you know when. you watch them share meat after they've.

they've hunted a monkey that's when some. of its sort of function becomes clear. because who who catches the monkey and. then who gets a share of that becomes a. really political business and and and. that feels you know from from our. perspective watching it that's suddenly. it all sort of fell into place a little. bit because who gets meat and who. doesn't has a sort of. um it's very political.

yeah it seemed like that in the. documentary would in particularly uh. when the female with the baby got some. and the one male that didn't got very. upset and attacked or yeah that's that. that's a kind of a classic example of it. or. yeah you know they were all there trying. to get a piece of meat because they want. to but.

um it risks upsetting other chimps. because there's only so much meat. there's only so much yeah and there's. sort of. the strongest alliances are being sort. of served in in that situation so. sometimes you know chimps get a scrap. here or there in that particular instant. she she made it away with quite a big. share of the monkey and I think you know. I wasn't there filming that particular. moment but I remember the the crew.

saying when they came back. did feel like that that's trouble. actually good good for you for getting a. share but actually that's you you're. going to get into trouble somehow but. because you know whether she was aware. that there was somebody who's you know a. high-ranking male was being excluded at. the same time so there was this tension. between the males and then this was. further Complicated by a female getting. a share and then he just blew his lid. it's just so fascinating to watch the.

the communication and the just the. politics that are involved and the all. the negotiation and the way they treat. each other it's. was that surprising to you that that it. was so complex. yes I mean I've worked with chimps. before. um you know I'm not a gym scientist you. know I'm not an expert in that sense but. but I have you know I've done a I've.

done a film myself a few years earlier. on the Indigo gyms and I also worked on. another one years previously so so some. of that I I knew and that and and and in. part that was why we made the series. that we knew there was going to be this. level of complexity. but we'd never and I don't think anyone. has ever committed that much sort of. filming resource and dedication to that.

intense of a period so we sort of seem. to be able to record it at a level of. detail that I hadn't seen before and I. don't think anybody else has and that so. that did surprise us yeah and it. surprised me personally it's the sense. of awareness like. you know as far as we know that this. quite limited vocal communication with. gyms you know they they make sort of. they make food grunts which tells other. chimps that they're enjoying some food.

um they make pant grunts which are a. sort of. this this noise that they make to each. other which is a signal of submission. and they have various calls. but as far as we know there's there's. not a huge amount of complexity in that. there's no there's not a lot of language. but. the amazing thing is that there seems to. be some other level of communication. going on that they somehow know.

um what each other are about to do or in. some circumstances they don't and. they're surprised and it causes conflict. but I think about particularly when you. watch gems to go on patrol right the the. patrol their borders the borders of. their territory. and they do that in in silence and they. do that for a reason because they don't. want anybody outside their territory to. know where they are. but how to coordinate that when they're.

not making any noise to each other at. all that they're looking at each other. and they're sort of they appear to be. reading each other's intentions and they. kind of know without anybody saying. anything that we're going on we're going. on patrol now this is it that was very. fascinating yeah because I was trying to. figure it out myself like how are they. coordinating this like how do they know. you know they they I have an endless.

conversations with the scientists and go. at and go go about that and um. you know they're stumped as well because. there aren't really any there aren't. really any signals that this is about to. happen and you know they'll be lying. around or grooming or doing something. completely. um disconnected. and then one chimp will will get up and. just start walking off in the direction. of the Border.

and and then the others will join and. then as they start moving closer to the. Border they're just the amount they. vocalize just goes down and down and. down to the point of being completely. silent. and yeah it's a mystery that there must. be something going on there. um and and often. you know maybe it's associated with. specific individual chimps who the other. chimps know the that those guys are.

Patrol leaders you know years ago in the. early days when when the scientists were. first there. uh there was a chimp called Ellington. and and he was the patrol leader when in. GoGo was one big group he never showed. any real interest in the dominant. hierarchy so he never made a play to be. Alpha. didn't really seem that bothered she was. a high-ranking male but he was not. engaged in that internal dominant.

struggle at all really. but of all the patrols that they. witnessed there Ellington was the one. who was present for the most and quite. often leading them so he seemed to have. this. this attraction to that behavior or this. this ability or or desire to go and. Patrol their their borders more than. other chimps and and maybe in some ways. that explains the lack of communication.

that they're more that it's it's. actually the very fact of Ellington. getting up and moving off for no. apparent reason does communicate to the. other chimps okay we're gonna go on. patrol now and you know the the sort of. modern version of Ellington who was who. was around. during our filming period is a. chimpanzee called Rollins who. similarly has has never shown any real. interest to make it to the alpha.

position well whilst all the other males. are sort of you know jostling for. position there and you get the you get. the feeling that ultimately they all. want to be on that top spot and they'll. just get as high as they can. Rollins doesn't seem to. doesn't seem to have that desire or. certainly it doesn't it doesn't appear. so. but he is the patrol leader he's he's. always out there in front and taking the. Western Group on on patrols and and they.

do it a lot and and it's very often him. and and what was interesting was that. his his younger brother who really is. just an adolescent Jim Damian. he was just kind of coming of age or. just come of age when we started filming. for chimp Empire and he really grew into. that role during our filming period he. became Roland's sort of second in. command during that period and they were.

so timely they look very similar anyway. they're very different ages actually. they've got the same father different. mother very different ages but they they. look the same but but they don't they. don't they don't know that they're. Brothers. but for some reason they have this. extremely close connection and both have. appear to have a real desire to to. engage in this territorial Behavior it's. so wild to watch because there's. centuries there's ones that are on the.

lookout they they hold a particular post. and there's no communication it's like I. mean that doesn't appear to be I mean. this is the thing like like I I've often. asked about how how is this functioning. you know you don't like say other parts. of their lives that they're making. vocalizations and signals that even. though you don't understand what they. are you can you can start to see. patterns like the food grunts for. instance you know that's a. that's a very it's a unique sound and.

and they make it when they're enjoying. food and then the rest of chimps gather. and they enjoy the same food so there's. there's a clear way to to to observe. that and to try and understand what it. means. but patrols are yeah they've you know we. know we know a lot about them through. the scientists that can go going through. observing them ourselves but there are. there are mysterious elements to it that. that nobody understands do you think.

it's taught Behavior like like the the. main ones had to learn this out of. necessity and then everybody else sort. of observed this behavior and recognize. the importance of it I I think that's a. it's a good point because. we were we were thinking about that a. bit when we were there so burgle this. this young chimp. um he was just sort of coming of age he. started attending patrols so he was.

young he's only 10 years old but he's an. orphan so it always hung out with all. the males anyway and during our filming. period he just really started becoming a. more frequent attendee of these these. patrols now that that dangerous and and. most younger chimps won't won't do that. but yeah you wonder whether that that's. where it kind of starts that you're sort. of you just you're mimicking the the. chimpanzees that you want to you want to.

be friends with and you want to be like. and you know that like this is just. something you see them do so you so you. do it with them and and if you do it. regularly enough. exactly that they maybe just you know. you don't need to communicate that much. you know you will know each other. extremely well you know by the way. you're walking and the direction you're. heading and who's there what it is. you're doing and yeah so maybe there's. just a lot of that.

did you wonder if somehow or another. there's some sort of telepathy so I mean. some sort of communication that we don't. understand where it's pheromones or. something. uh personally I wondered all sorts of. those things you know what what is it. there is. is there some other signal you know I. mean. until there's proof for that it's just. pure speculation but there's but there's.

a gap in the understanding there from a. scientific point of view. um and you know like say if if they were. here today the scientists from hungogo. they would be saying the same thing that. we don't we don't know exactly how those. patrols are instigated and how The. Chimps involved know that they're on. patrol we do not know that so you know. that that it leaves your imagination to. run wild a little bit. certainly the way that I mean I think.

telepathies may be a bit strong but I. mean who who knows we don't know that. it's not happening. um. I I imagine the. my personal point of view there seems to. be quite a lot of sort of. um signaling through eye movement. um again this this isn't supported by. the the scientific data necessarily but. there's you know they're very sensitive.

to where each other are looking or at. least they appear to be and. I remember one champ he sadly's died. although he leaves a lot of um. he leaves a lot of Offspring out in GoGo. but there was a chimp that featured in a. film I made a few years ago atan GoGo. and his name was pincer. and when I first saw shots of pincer I. felt this like something different about.

this gym and I don't know what it is and. and in hindsight I can't really believe. that I couldn't spot it but there was. something just seemed very human about. him. that's sort of looking more closely. and I realized Pinta had sort of. completely white sclera. like like you and I right so you know. when I look over like that you you know. exactly you know exactly where I'm. looking and that's a very it's an. important part of human cooperation we. follow each other's gaze and and.

therefore you know what it is I'm. interested in or maybe what I'm about to. do. um but in chimps I was I was reading. about around it after I saw this chimp. pincer with his with his white sclera. whites of the eyes. um officially chimps don't have this. characteristic they're they're they're. they're supposed to all have like brown. um where we have whites for those they. have brown so the difference in color. between the iris and here is is is less.

similar oh there we go yeah yeah okay I. mean that's I mean it's a good one that. that that's not even the best sort of. badger of pincer and obviously you can. see a bit of discoloration like you know. they look like quite unhealthy wise of. the eyes there but he has a very defined. difference between his Iris and whites. of the eyes so with pincer even at a. distance you can see where he's looking. I may not seem like much but in a.

species where we don't fully understand. their communication or they appear to be. doing things without any vocalizations. um I wondered like you know how come. Prince has got this and what impact does. it have. I talked to you know there are other. examples oh actually and there is. there's there was a Champa in gombe I. think he was called Mr worzel. um who had very good example of whites. of the ice as well.

but we started um looking into it and I. didn't go again and I started talking to. the scientists about it. and uh and they were like well yeah. pencil does have whites to the edge. we've you know we've never really. thought about it that much and it's not. that I didn't notice but as as. filmmakers with our lenses and things. we're actually getting we're often. looking at the gym soon at a in a level. of detail that the scientists don't see. every day so in a way we're sort of.

providing them with some sort of visual. data and that that was of interest and. and actually they they did a a proper. study on it and go go and tried to find. um how many chimps and gigo had this. sort of whites of the eyes and they. found like I can't remember the exact. numbers but it was quite a reasonable. percentage of it either had it you know. Prince is a great example but I had some. version of that. they don't know why this is but.

in my sort of excited sort of way I was. thinking well here's the biggest group. of chimps ever known they cooperate on. levels That You Don't See regularly in. other chimpanzee groups you know they're. on these territorial boundary patrols. all the time they hunt all the time they. they they're very successful on a on a. Cooperative level and they appear to be. doing these things in silence what role. do these whites of the eyes play and you.

know anecdotally the the scientists kind. of agreed that there was you know. there's a possibility that it that it. does play some role like I said you know. we they they're scientists you know so. it's it's different they need the data. to support that but there was you know. it was interesting about pincer is that. even though he never. he never made it to the top either but. he fathered a huge number of Offspring.

and and he was always there on these. Cooperative behaviors so he's if there's. a hunt going on pincers around so this. was like say this is just it was just my. hypothesis from a non-scientific point. of view but I thought he played a sort. of disproportionate role in sort of. Cooperative behaviors but again it's. just it's an area they they know an. absolute ton about the chimsen gogo it.

is incredible from Behavior genetics. everything they've studied that group of. chimps very thoroughly but there is. still a lot they don't know so this. whites of the eyes characteristic this. is a very unusual. characteristic it's very unusual genetic. variation it is I mean does do his. offspring have this. that that's exactly what the scientists. wanted to know because obviously for it. to be if like evolutionary benefit it.

needs to it needs to persist and his. offspring don't actually not not in a. way that you know if if every kid that. pincer had sort of came out with these. eyes you would suddenly think well well. here's here's a little mutation that is. that is he he's been reproductively. successful. and and and this could help and it could. actually change. um. but no they they didn't find that.

actually so you know for instance. Rollins who's the patrol leader in the. west. um that's Prince's son. um and he doesn't have that he's an. incredible uh he's actually they're very. piercing but he doesn't have the same. eyes how common is that variation. God I Really they we just I say we. because the the scientists generously. gave made me an author on the paper and. I think you know I didn't do any of the.

the real science work on it at all but I. think because of the conversations we. were having it sort of it inspired the. the that particular study. um I think they found that there was. again don't quote me on the numbers but. something in the order of sort of 13. individuals aren't in GoGo so a a. non-trivial percentage that sounds very. sciency but it means that like you know. it was a significant percentage enough.

to to take note of and and that that's. as far as the study's got they don't. really understand the impact of that if. it has any impact at all you know it. could just be random variation and. because in Gogo's such a huge group. um. you know. that you would expect to see more. variety. um and more incidences of of things that.

occur on low levels so they still really. don't understand the role of that but it. was interesting me on two levels like I. thought it was fascinating because it. made me just wonder about what's going. on behind those eyes and. but also as a human you just engage with. pincer in this you know it's like. suddenly there's a part of his face that. feels a lot more familiar I remember um. one of the scientists there.

who's there years ago when I was there. Kevin ports. and and like say they'd say different. things around the fire at night as to. what they'd say in the scientific papers. I remember Kevin going oh I'm totally. with the audience and he said honestly. some days I'll be out there following. pincer around and he's just sitting. there close to me and I just think by. any minute he's gonna sit just turn. around and say what are you doing Kevin. I like he was there there he is yeah I.

mean look at those eyes that's wow. he's so unusual he was remarkable I mean. that yeah that's Kevin Langer grab at. the um one of the scientists from in. GoGo that. yeah I mean every everybody loved pincer. and everybody was very very engaged with. him but even at a distance you see you. can see what what's he thinking what is. he about to do. um and you have to wonder like that that. it makes us think that so.

are the other chimps reading anything. from that. was there any correlation between chimps. that have that characteristic and. specific roles they play in the tribe. and. well. I mean that as we said it's you know. it's a small portion of them and very. little sort of they've done no specific. study on it but pincer was the the best.

example. um. he appeared to be more involved in the. Cooperative behaviors than your average. chimp and you know that's what you know. the the scientist in Google were saying. you know when the hunt princes there you. know when when there's a patrol he's. there so he seemed but chimps without. white sclera would be doing that as well. the interesting thing about pincer was. how many offspring he had you know he. never he was actually a low ranking male. his whole life and he had the same.

number of Offspring as the alpha male at. the time so here's an alpha male that's. sort of dedicated his entire. um life to knocking off other guys and. on his way to the top and all the stress. associated with being an alpha male and. go go and actually you know it's all. ultimately it's all about having kids. and. he had fewer kids than pincer who had. just hung out at number 18 number 19 you.

know. shine away from fights but was very. successful but those things could be. completely unrelated because. pincer was also fascinating in that like. he had a different sort of strategy with. females as well he was he spent a lot of. time with females. um in ways that some of the higher. ranking males didn't so they would you. know wait until the female they wouldn't. really spend much time with the females. concentrate on their male relationships. and then when the man the females you.

know were in a reproductive state in. eastras then they'd go all right okay. now it's time and and use their position. to gain access to it whereas pincer. played the more sort of girlfriend type. game he'd spent a lot of time with. females even when they went. reproductively. um. in that state so it wasn't for immediate. benefits but he spent a lot of time he. put the hours in. um and.

and yeah the the. Ugandan field trackers. um they love pincer and they used to. describe these different female chimpses. Prince's girlfriends and Prince's wives. depending on how much time he spent with. them but spent a lot of time with. females so you know you know is there. anything to do with the whites of the. eyes he was just a fascinating champ and. he did things in a bit of a different. way toward. um your your average MailChimp is. expected to do it's so interesting that.

he has that characteristic and then he. also exhibits Behavior that's slightly. more human. and clever. I do I totally agree you're encouraging. me in laser ways in which the scientists. are alive you've got to there's no proof. for Legends there's no proof of that but. yeah yeah I'm with Joe now so we can go. down there but yeah I mean I that that's. I've been you you can get really. fascinated and carried away with those.

things and the thing is there's loads we. we just simply don't understand about it. so all of that is possible. um but yeah in scientific world you need. that proof that data to support it but. like I said privately everybody adored. pencil and was fascinated by him and. knew there's something different. well I appreciate the intellectual. discipline and not like separating it. that way and saying there is no real. scientific evidence but my goodness is. it's it's so fascinating the whole thing.

was incredible I mean I feel like I. learned more watching those chimps from. your documentary than anything and I've. been obsessed with chimps like if you. see with a skull and everything my whole. life I've I it's so cool they're so. interesting they're so close to us I. mean and you know at one point in time. we were sort of in the same group of. vomits and something happened to us and. they sort of remain the same and it's. just yeah that I think out of all the. animals that human beings have ever.

studied none of them are as fascinating. as chimpanzees there's just because of. our direct connection to them our close. relation to them. I I totally agree I mean you know some. people love animals because they're. different in different ways and and some. people don't like gyms because they're. very similar in in some ways that are. really good and in some ways which are. quite dark you know there are lots of. similarities. um you know there are important. differences as well and I think you know.

that is what makes them so fascinating. if they were if they were really really. similar then you know it would be too. similar and that's sort of the the. Intrigue is sort of where that where is. where does that similarity end and the. differences begin and I think that's a. very sort of personal experience. watching chimps I think that's why. people find it so yeah so cool as well. as you you relate to different qualities. in them as a species or different.

individuals and I hope that's kind of. what we I hope that's what we did for. chimp Empire because we we try to pick a. real range of perspectives and. because they are complex creatures they. are all different and you know you can. say chimpanzees are like this or. chimpanzees are like that or a. chimpanzee of this age does this or that. and and some of these gen generalisms. are are true and and uh and are useful.

but that sort of individual variation. that difference in personality from. Chimp to Chimp that really affects. what happens to them. um and and what they do and and who. their relationships with that's that's. what's really fascinating and I think as. a human just yeah you gravitate towards. different qualities and different chimp. characters no I think you did a. fantastic job of highlighting that and.

it's it's so. it's so compelling and so interesting. and so I mean what is it like to be. embedded with this tribe for so long and. then go back to regular civilization is. there like a bit of an adjustment period. well like we we were there as a team we. were there for about 400 days so that's. a huge. um totally amidst uh the team members or.

human team members swap swapped in and. out so the the camera crew which was. made up of four people usually two on. each group and they do sort of between. six weeks and two months at a time and. then they'd come out and come and leave. the forest leave Uganda come back home. get their lives in order you know have. some rest and then they'd come out for. another two months when the second team. was finished and we sort of tag teamed. the camera Crews.

I you know I was not out nearly as often. as as the camera crew so I I personally. would go out at the start of the shoots. and and help set up with the with the. camera teams and and introduce them to. what we were trying to do and and the. characters we were following and and how. we wanted to film them. at the same time. there's you know it's a real sort of. observational documentary so my role in.

it was to you know to try and. you know give them a good sense of the. overall approach that we were taking the. dedication that we wanted to film. specific characters day after day after. day and that you know only after filming. them in that sort of level of commitment. are we going to really get a sense of of. who they are and and that involves. filming chimps you know when they're not. doing stuff that's very interesting I.

remember early days. um Gus. he's one of my favorite gyms the. anti-social adolescent. um he I just thought he was going to be. an interesting character from the start. but the the camera team who was sort of. tasked with sort of following him you. know for for miles and hours and hours. during the day they were coming back at. the start and going you know I don't. know about this guest guy he doesn't do. a lot and he's often on his own and um. you know and they'd be hearing all this. like commotion over this other part of.

the forest and as a camera person it's. like I'm filming the guy doesn't do. anything right where's Jackson I can. hear Jackson kicking off and you know. the jealous of the the people who had. the more sort of immediately exciting. targets but that was what we had to do. to bring that diversity of characters to. life is the you know some characters. won't won't do a lot on a day-to-day. basis but then when they do. um you're fully invested in them and and.

you're with them and it was his. inactivity that was kind of his Gus's. story actually he was often on his own. which meant he wasn't doing a lot. because he's just him in the trees. um but then when he came out of that. sort of isolation and and tried to groom. someone desperately trying to make a. friend how you were with him you know. you're like oh this guy's he's coming to. the group maybe he's gonna maybe. someone's gonna groom him back so it was. yeah it was important to follow that. that range of characters but it would be.

being sort of immersed for for that long. you know it's incredible experience and. I think that for everybody involved in. it that was part of it you're you're. living you literally live within the in. GoGo chimpanzee territory because the. the scientific study has a camp so like. this small like Island in in the middle. of the ingogo territory so there you. know it's it's completely pristine.

rainforest in every direction but. there's a little clearing and it's been. there for decades and there's a. selection of sort of tents and little. log cabins very low impact and small but. that's where the scientists and the. Ugandan field trackers stay every year. when when they go out there and and we. stayed there but being immersed in it. even at night time you know where you. can hear the sounds of the forest and. you know the chimps are out there. sleeping not that far from you that.

really helps with engaging in in their. lives actually how we've been able to. sort of like nip in and out and stay in. a hotel outside you know everybody. wanted you know you you missed the. Comforts a lot you know when you do get. out you love it. but it was an important part of the. process to be properly immersed and to. live in the forest and it it just it. helped you sort of feel what they feel a. little bit I would imagine that the. coordination of filming and then the.

editing process of trying to piece. together a narrative. is incredibly complex and difficult. because you have 400 Days of footage. that you want to boil down to four shows. it is very difficult and I think. you know we couldn't know we had. Ambitions for it the but we couldn't. know how successful we were going to be.

at it you know I mean I'm. but we managed to film a lot more than I. ever expected so the the schedule and. the technical workflow you know. batteries charging how you offload all. the footage each day the the dailies. all of that stuff was sort of based on. an assumption that we wouldn't you know. we wouldn't have the level of access. that we actually had. and the team was so good. um and the the cameras that evolved.

quite a lot since I was filming chimps. even a few years previously so we got an. enormous amount of footage you know it's. also just working with the team of. scientists who just totally believed in. it and and and. enabled us to get that level of access. helped us predict what was going to. happen where they were going to go. so we were just yeah we filmed a lot. more than I ever expected. um.

and yeah condensing that down. um and simplifying it uh into a. four-part series was was a huge. challenge like I said from from the. beginning we we were totally disciplined. about certain things you know however at. 10 we were going to tell the story that. unfolded over that 18 months. um you know we there just there's not. the option to to make things up or or. create stories that didn't happen.

um. and so so we were. you know are the challenge was going to. be well well what don't what what do we. not use basically so. we filmed a lot more than we ever needed. and we did that in terms of range of. characters as well there were there were. a whole character story lines that we. filmed that didn't make it in so that's. where we were that's where our editing. process in our sort of.

um the creative approach to it was that. we're gonna able we're gonna be able to. make these really dramatic and. accessible stories by by emission but. it's what we don't have in. um but. that process is sort of like a sculpting. process you sort of come back with a. hundred hours worth of footage of one. shoot and we did six shoots and then you. sort of go through that and just. gradually sculpt it down to to the.

characters and the moments in those. character stories that that you feel are. the most interesting or reflect what. really happened now what is that process. like is well first of all you said you. have these camps is there electricity in. these camps. no sir no nothing I mean why are you. recharging batteries uh it's a. combination of solar and generators so. we had a couple of generators that we.

would. stick on for certain certain little hour. slots during the day. and that would cover downloading the. footage when it came back and also. charging batteries and radios as well so. we had a few electrical needs the the. you know the scientists didn't have and. weren't set up for so there were some. things we needed to do yet we had two. generators we tried to use them as. infrequently as possible because even. though they were quiet for a generator. but you still you don't want to be.

chugging and away and using up fuel in a. sort of low impact situation there but. we did need a bit of power. um but we all always able to you know. offload cards and charge batteries and. then we're ready for the next day and. then you have to do it again and again. and again I would imagine that at the. end of the day there probably has to be. a very complex. system of organizing what you got and. and defining it yeah and then I mean you.

have so much footage to to be able to go. over that and try to piece together a. storyline and to know on what cards and. what hard drives you have what data. because you're not uploading it anywhere. correct do you have internet access no. nice it's all that yeah this is quite. technical stuff if you're interested in. that yeah I can get it yeah please. please so yeah and we went through loads. of sort of working out how how are we. gonna how do we make sense of this did.

you coordinate this in advance before. the expedition began yeah huge amount of. work beforehand. um on on all sorts of things so all the. camera we tested out a ton of cameras. um so there's lots of things on the. technical camera side that we had to and. that involved going to local forests in. the UK and just in terms of capabilities. and low light low light capability and. and weight and ease of use because yeah. not to get this distracted by that I'll.

come back to the all the logging and. things but. the camera side. there's a the scientist who was one of. the first guys out in Google called. David Watts he's uh he he's a yeah he's. a professor at Yale he's a very big deal. very eminent scientist but he chose for. his own personal interest to carry. around a little camcorder since when not. from day one when he was there but very. early from when he first went to see The.

Chimps in the early 90s he carried. around tiny little palm camcorder. mini DV tapes or something at the time. and he's had various versions over the. years as they've got a bit more modern. but you know something is about 400. grams that you could just stick in his. backpack with a with a bottle of water. over the years he's filmed things the no. film Crews ever managed to get now he. films them like a scientist it's video. data for him you know he's not filming. it for you know it's not a 4K Netflix.

production. but he's just film moments in their. lives that that have just been. impossible for film Crews carrying. enormous equipment very heavy tripods so. they're stable in the forest giant long. lenses you know traditionally. film Crews have only really managed to. capture small parts of their lives. whereas David. was filming these incredible things. regularly just felt like he had this.

this amazing access and I'm thinking. like if we can find some sweet some. version of that where we have the same. level of access that David has but with. cameras with new technology that that. will deliver for a sort of 4K Netflix. production. you know so in the in the end I mean if. I had the camera on the table now you'd. be like well that doesn't doesn't look. very small and it was you know in the. camera crew be like well they were quite. heavy actually and and you had to carry. them around in backpacks but they were.

they were significantly lighter and. easier to use than than things that. would normally be used on those sorts of. shoes. so that made an enormous difference and. I think that. but in a way that's related to this huge. volume of footage so we sort of came up. with this fantastic setup with the. cameras but it allowed these camera. people who fit as well and just like. super Keen to just film all sorts of.

things that we we didn't expect to get. then we have this huge challenge we've. got volumes of footage the you know. often with things that you kind of you. know you might film a grooming scene for. sort of two hours and then in the end. you only want to use a few shots of it. you know you're still representing what. happened there but you've got this huge. volume of stuff to cut out. so yeah long month before we ever went. there. we're trying to work out how are we. going to organize this stuff and we need. to organize it like when it's fresh.

because we need to know who's in that. shot we can't just end up in the edit. with like 300 hours of like who's that. chimp again oh I think that's Carter you. know you just can't do any of that stuff. so I imagine like I imagine reality. series do do a similar thing actually. the sort of observational docs where. you're just filming a ton of people all. the time or CCTV style stuff. but for us we yeah we needed to straight.

away back up the footage and then assess. what we had and every single shot needs. to be logged with which chimps are in. that shot uh what are they doing what. are the conditions. um and then there's all the data about. that's built into it that says when it. was and and I mean even in some case GPS. information so all of that went into. every single shot so at the end of it. we've got this enormous library and this. cool bit of software where you can go. okay I'm pretty sure I know the story.

beats that we've recorded with Gus but. let's just type in Gus and bring up. every shot of Gus that we got over the. year and it would go and then that's. just everything that we've got of course. and so. you know we had to. once we knew the characters that we that. we wanted to be viewing this story. through we we were able to sort of. concentrate on them and and sort of.

build out of the narrative that we that. we filmed there. um. yeah build build best storylines in in. parallel to the story lines with the. group now that there's cell phones that. are capable of 4K. and you know you're talking about how. this one scientist was able to get. access with this little very small. camcorder yeah was there any. is there any thought of using cell. phones. because they're so small now and the.

cameras are so good they are and they. are really good. um in the forest they are less good. actually because it's a real low light. situation so. that's that's you know and and you don't. have the ability with. with some you can you can zoom in on. most phones can't you but the quality. goes right down it's a digital Zoom so. you're not using as much of the sensor. so although they are extremely. impressive and when you're in a. situation with loads of light the images.

look you know you can blow them up on a. screen like that and they look good but. they they don't actually compare to sort. of professional cameras in in that type. of situation but when you're talking. about this one scientist that had this. very tiny camera and all the incredible. footage that he was able to get I would. imagine that with cell phones today. particularly with these there's various. add-on lenses that you can little cases. that you could put on a small cell phone. yeah. you know what it wasn't we I don't think. we we didn't think about it a lot or.

because of the the assumptions at the. time was that it still wasn't going to. be quiet enough but I agree I mean I. think there's. you know you'd certainly. they they would be recording at a level. that you wouldn't have been able to. before I still think we our compromise. was to try and get the highest quality. possible whilst getting that access so. like I say if I actually got the camera. out now you'd be going like that looks.

like a that looks like a pretty big deal. you know it's bigger it's bigger than. these cameras for instance but. um but it was still relatively small. compared to most sort of nature show. setups. so when you're filming you you film for. 400 Days like how long is that editing. process. so we went through like a huge. pre-editing process which is what I was. talking about earlier going from that. right this is everything that we've shot.

reducing it right down to you know the. the best bits and the most relevant. scenes that we'd filmed. um you know Gus is quite a good example. we would you know film in for hours not. not doing very much and looking. um like he was struggling socially and. like you know so there's you don't. actually need to make that point and to. share that experience with the viewer. you only actually need a small amount of. that. so there's a phase of it where you sort.

of just reduce it down to everything. that you think boil it right down this. was the story that we recorded in its. most representative chunks. um. and that really helps you get it right. down to a manageable level. and then. and then looking at that and thinking. okay well how's this going how are we. gonna divide up these this this this. narrative across four four episodes.

and and there's obviously that's where. we had quite a lot of choice you know. it's a the story unfolded in in a. particular way but we we could choose. when to introduce the different groups. and we could choose how much to expand. certain parts of the story and then how. much to to sort of compress uh times. during that that narrative that we that. we recorded so there are quite a lot of.

creative choices there like I say the. the the overall the series at the end. that that that's what happened but. there's a whole load of bits that we. sort of you know compressed because you. didn't necessarily need to see this this. period between that and that and it and. it wasn't it wasn't relevant for the. story. but yeah editing so a lot of work done. before the edit because you can't you. know you couldn't have expected any. editors to come in and just go well you.

know that's right there's the rushes. make it make us a good opening show. really. um so loads of work done before the. editors got on board. um. but then yeah four different editors. about 20 weeks. per episode wow. um. yeah so what's that like five months or. something but uh but you know that that. sounds like a really long term and it is.

but you you have to be in a position to. share a cut with in in this case Netflix. about halfway through that process so. actually you know. you know putting together. um. I'll show you that really that really. works and and and illustrates the story. that you've captured in a dramatic way. um. yeah it takes quite a lot of work and. that needs to be that needs to be. representative of where you're going by.

the time you first show it I would. imagine that's one of the biggest. challenges of this whole piece this. whole series. yeah I mean for lots of different. challenges along along the way and in. some ways like each time you knock off. one of the challenges you know you feel. a bit more relaxed about it I personally. I love being in the edit that's all my. happy place I mean I like I like being. in the field I used to like it more when. I was younger and fit or actually like.

it's it's getting hot it's harder I mean. I'm not it's not like I'm an old man or. anything but like the the camera crews. are younger and fitter than I am and. um and lighter. um but the edit is. you know that's. I I love that part of the process and. you know you can really. things can be you know you can edit. shows in a lot of different ways and and. the sort of style and tone and and the.

music and things a lot of the sort of. a lot of the the overall feel of the. series starts to come come to life so. and I think we we're fantastic editor. Sam Rogers who I've I've worked with a. few times before and he was. he did the first episode. and he's a really really good job great. instincts for it and we were very well. prepared. and we. you know initially we didn't do any sort.

of narration on it because. we wanted to sort of do a test of like. how much can you find how much are you. going to just engage with these chimps. um and not be told what's happening or. what might be about to happen or what. that means just let's just do it without. any commentary at all to start with and. and it was a fantastic exercise because. then we showed Sarah Netflix that that. first cut and everyone loved it and you. could follow it and you were just like.

you were right in there and you know in. a way I I sort of in some ways I missed. that first version because it was kind. of it was an odd experience just sort of. like you know just we are just gonna be. following the Champs and the edit and. the music and the sound is gonna sort of. tell us what's happening here. um you might have liked that because it. was a sort of very sort of just direct. experience with the gyms have you. thought about releasing a different. version that doesn't have narration.

um no it seems like you have so much. footage and I mean I would imagine that. it's just more people watching. I mean I don't know I mean in the end. because. Ali and and I loved that part of the. process as well so I think in in the end. you know I thought it was a great. exercise but actually uh. you know we wanted it to reach a broad. audience we we did want another layer of. thought process there and and and some.

in interpretation and you know Michelle. it is a fantastic job and I think that. you know yeah there are other voices we. could have had on it that I may have. sort of regretted and it might have. taken something away from that and I. think that. that was yeah for me that sort of. confirmed that yeah we we lucked out. with mahisha and he was fantastic. because it gave it something else it. gave it uh an extra sort of conceptual.

layer that I think really really helps. but but it certainly makes it more. relatable to humans it does yeah yeah it. makes it easier to follow along. especially if someone is not like. completely fascinated with just. observing chimp Behavior with no. narration yeah and the thing is is what. you can't. like stylistically. um there's whole sections that you could. follow actually without any narration.

but then that becomes quite an unusual. experience if you're just like you go. like 20 minutes without hearing a word. and then and then mahesha pops up. because they're actually you need some. you need to know something here about. what's at stake you know and that's. often uh how we sort of try to shape the. the narration was sort of on a need to. know basis. um you know I think we you know because. the voice really worked we sort of. decide to use it a little bit more but.

our initial approach was well I think. it's certain situations. you know for instance Gus going to groom. Abrams or whatever you need to know. what's at stake there. you need to know that he doesn't he. doesn't actually have any grooming. partners and that this is you know this. sort of opportunity with a chimp like. Abrams could could change his situation.

and you could you know partly you could. follow that visually but I think it it. really it helped sort of really. solidifying some of those thoughts. you have so much footage and four shows. have has there been thought about. expanding this and doing more episodes. sort of because the series covers the. sort of the the true chronology of.

events. um so. all all the sort of real. drama and real things that happened. throughout that period. you know represented in the series so. quite a lot of the footage that we. didn't use are just sort of other. examples of the same thing that we. didn't you know less descriptive. versions of you know or repeated. behaviors and things so there wasn't a. lot of things that you sort of feel oh.

there's a whole nother show in there and. and also they weren't things that you. know how the series concludes that was. that was really at the end of our final. shoot so. the footage that we have is sort of. supporting material for everything. that's sort of out there. um. but. I mean you know the story still. continues in GoGo. um you know things are still. going on there and still changing do you.

get updates yeah. so we. I mean we're we're pretty close to all. the scientists there and have been for. for years you know we're we're friends. and and stay in touch. um. I'm seeing one of them tonight actually. who lives in Austin. um but. they they are often texting things that. are happening now that they know would. be interested in. now has there been thought about doing. another series.

and because this has obviously been very. successful. well you know I think I mean it's hard. to say you know it's only been a few. weeks so. it's hard to say how how successful it. is yet because Netflix doesn't tell you. no they're crafty with that. yeah it's obviously anecdotally from. people that I know I mean so many people. recommended it before I watched it I got. so many text messages like you must. watch this this is right up your alley.

so many people told me about it well I. think I think because of your interests. though you might get a bit of a bias I'm. sure sort of like overall conversation. on it maybe I don't know I mean I'm I'm. assuming. um because people know you're in the. gyms. I think yeah I mean and I re I read the. Twitter feed each day I can't resist. I'll refresh that see what people are. saying about it and really um yeah I'm. really excited about the feedback. um you should be but I don't know yeah.

whether it's going to get bigger or. bigger or. who knows I mean I personally and the. whole team who who are involved in it. you just kind of fall in love with that. place and the people who work there and. the and all the chimps you know whether. we were filming or not you kind of just. you want to find out what's happening. what's happening and Google because. you're following that story whether you. film it or not and I think we'll always. be on a sort of like you know we want to. find out.

is Abraham's in charge. you know um. yeah there's things that are happening. that we're constantly being updated. about. I think we we love to go into a second. season but I think that's you know quite. an undertaking it's huge undertaking but. I think we learned so much on the first. one that I mean you know a lot of the. pain about how to do it. we sort of we it would be a much easier. thing second time around but also seems.

like one of the most unusual situations. where there has been these embedded. scientists in this area for 30 years and. these chimps are so accustomed to it I. mean it's like to try to re-establish. that somewhere else. yeah this is a very unusual group of. chimpanzees too right it is I mean there. are other chimpanzee sites several of. the chimpanzee sites around Africa where. where they have a a similar you know the.

chimps are habituated long-term. scientific projects you know Jane Jane. Goodall been perfect example you know. here here project has been there long. before the guys were studying in GoGo so. that's much longer term you know the. study sites in Thai in the Ivory Coast. and fongoli. um you know there's many of them. what's unique about GoGo is as well as. having that level of access and data and.

sort of so you just have so much. information about The Chimps but there's. also just a ton of Trends and and they. are quite unique in the the in GoGo. territory surrounded by. forest in every direction whereas at. other sites often you know chimpanzee. habitat sort of bordered by uh farmland. or human settlements of some kind so. they're quite sort of it's a little wild. pocket in amongst an area that's less.

Wild. art and Google and I think this is. unique for study sites of chimps they. have it's wild in every direction. outside of there so so that does impact. their their behavior and their sort of. group dynamics because the edge of their. territory is not like some land they. can't go on it's land they can take. because it belongs to other gyms and so. and you know whether you.

whether you enjoy watching the aspect of. chimpanzee Behavior or not. there's a there's another layer to what. to what happens in Google. um you know loads of other chimpanzee. sites with they they have different. things that they do you know for. instance in in in. fungoli and Senegal they use Spears to. hunt bush babies you know there's sort. of there's in every little in every. different chimpanzee site there's like a. an Associated unique Behavior or or.

culture scientists wouldn't call it. culture but to you know a simple way of. looking at it there's a different like. sort of things that they do that are. that are separate and different to other. team groups so you've observed there's. observed chimpanzees that use Spears. they're all yeah I haven't observed any. any of them at all it's not I've never. I've never been there or filmed that but. yes they. they use sticks did they sharpen these.

decks you know what I don't know and uh. my partner Rosie actually made a film. about those chimps would quite chimpy in. our household uh and and she she'll be. able to answer that better but I I know. that the you they use Spears and I think. they make Spears so I don't know whether. they sharpen them but they certainly. strip them down so that they are like a. spear wow and they and they jab in holes.

for bush babies what is a bush baby. like a little nocturnal primate. they're very they're very cute oh boy. how conflicted is that what I mean it. just watch them tear the monkeys apart. with their hands but having them use. weapons and. spear them yeah well I mean chimpanzees. you know use tools since Jane well Jane. got one of the views tools probably for. thousands of thousands of years we don't.

know but. um you know Jane Goodall discovered that. many years ago so making not just using. tools but making tools. wow it's quite cool isn't it that is so. cool interestingly the in GoGo gyms uh. they do occasionally use a tool for. something or other but they're not like. in West Africa. um. in the Ivory Coast the the chimpanzees. there use big rocks to crack nuts.

and they use sticks to fish for ants. um. and same thing in in gombe and and like. saying fungali these Spears for bush. babies the tool use is quite a big thing. for for chimps generally around Africa. um but I Can Gogo they're not big tool. users. um and it's interesting they maybe have. just never you know tools are a solution. to a problem for the gyms they identify. that they need something and that tool.

will help get it. and it feels that in GoGo that. actually they're not they've not really. had that need. and because of the fruit and because of. the prevalence of monkeys maybe it's. it's such a rich environment loads of. fruit they've just they've hammered the. monkeys there. um I remember yeah John matani. won the scientists saying. um yeah in Google they don't you know.

they don't use a lot of tools they. cooperate on really interesting levels. like that's the thing that feels that is. the identifying. um or the defining quality of being GoGo. group it's their sheer popular the the. population size they're just a massive. group. um. and maybe as a function of that there's. levels of Cooperative Behavior there. that they they achieve. those getting the things that they want.

through cooperation rather than tool. youth when you're observing them. um hunting after monkeys is there. speculation that there's two things. going on that they're hunting the. monkeys for food but also that they're. preventing the monkeys from eating the. fruit because they must be in. competition with the monkeys for these. prized resources because of course the. monkeys eat fruit as well. we do I don't think that uh that's a.

thing but you might I think the. overriding things they're just like. hunting the monkeys. because the thing is that that does make. this with other PRI with other animals. for others yeah Predators I think. they're coyotes one of the reasons why. they target cats is not just for food. but the cats are also Predators yeah. plus you know what I don't know and I. don't think I've ever really asked that. specifically to the to the scientists. there but I'm guessing the. though it's so much fruit around the you.

know those sorts of things might be. driven by like a scarcity of food so. therefore like you know take out your. competitor for that food and I think. what they'd probably say was that. you know it's such a rich environment. and actually they just seem to love. hunting monkeys. um which is a shame you know and is it a. shame I don't know I don't know well. it's it's hard you know I I feel like.

I've been desensitized to it a little. bit so you know obviously don't go yes. they've got that monkey but. but you accept it and you. yeah you don't I think if you're. following the in GoGo chimps you. you're sort of like on some level you're. kind of with them really and right. therefore you know you're not you're not. like I said you're not room for you know. you don't really want them to do that. but you totally accept that they do.

but you know in previous years the there. used to be a lot more monkeys there so. the the chims are actually having. a a probably negative a probably. negative impact on the numbers of the. monkeys but is this just they have a. very specific territory yeah and this is. just in their territory yeah they're. having a big impact so is there a. prevalence of monkeys outside of their. territory and do they ever go outside of. their territory specifically to try to.

Target monkeys. I know that they go to areas of their. territory or areas at the edge of their. territory where they know the raw more. monkeys still because yeah one time. monkeys were much more common within. their territory you know they'd avoid. The Chimps or whatever but there was a. known there were known groups of monkeys. there. and and now there are less because. they're so effective at hunting them. yeah.

there's a there's one of the images of. this torso of a monkey and they're just. eating it and it's it's so weird because. there's just something that's just so. uniquely disturbing about watching uh. primate eat a primate. on a. yeah see it's like I mean it is what. they do it is yeah you unfortunately. um if you if you follow Jimson a lot you.

know a lot of chimp groups do that in. fact everywhere where you find chimps. and monkeys in the same place it happens. I think. um. yet it is part of what they do do you. find yourself rooting for the monkey to. get away or do you find yourself rooting. for the chimp to get the monkey I mean. because you you kind of want to capture. the the actual successful hunt. no no not necessarily actually no and I. think the. you know particularly the type of thing.

that we were doing it wasn't sort of no. you know we want that behavior you know. we weren't now going out to get Behavior. sequences we just want to film what. happened and then and in a way. them attempting to answer something. unfailing is is also an interesting. story does it happen often with a. attempt to hunt monkeys and the monkeys. get away it it does it does happen yeah. not not very often most of the time is. successful yes I think so and you do I. mean having said I was I'm a bit.

desensitized to it I think you know that. what the natural things you're seeing a. much bigger animal go after a much. smaller animal so in almost everybody. there's an underdog there and there's. you know you kind of. you are on some level thinking. come on if you just get out to that. skinny tree get out of that skinny. Branch they won't follow you there you. know because that's the that's the. challenge on. the monkeys try and get out right on the. tips of the branches which are you know.

they won't they won't hold the chimps. weight so that's the safe bit but then. but then it's quite a precarious. position because where do you go from. there you're just kind of delaying. things really oh. um because they know exactly where you. are it's hard because the you know those. monkeys are. they're complex creatures as well yeah. and I think you know if we were we were. focusing on them a lot we'd start to. engage with them as individuals and you. know would it would feel different and.

it's important to remember that but. you know the purpose of this. series was we wanted to experience what. it was like to be in and go go. chimpanzee and from their perspective. monkeys are food. Did You observe. noticeable patterns in how they hunt or. strategies of how they hunt these. monkeys. and. no not I mean not really other other. than like I said they're sort of stages.

to it where. you know it's not. they'll just suddenly start hunting. they'll they'll be a process where. one of the gyms might hear some monkeys. or they might have gone looking for them. in a particular area and there's there's. different stages where they kind of know. there's monkeys in the area and they're. sort of feeling their way around and. then maybe they've heard a call and. they're all making their way gradually.

over there. and then. when they. identify an opportunity right okay there. is there's a group of monkeys here and. they're up in that tree and then they. can often be very quiet a bit like being. on patrol at that point where you know. they're just kind of getting as close as. they can and in positions where they can. be most effective. without making any noise and without. scaring anything off.

um and then generally it sort of it. takes just one chimp to just go for it. and then and then the chase is on so. there's no element of surprise or. anything it's just it's a rush and. they're trying to Corner. the monkey or monkeys. um. in positions in the trees where they can. get to them one things that they uh. observed in the David Attenborough. um capturing of this sort of behavior. was that they will sort of Ambush them.

they will set up traps. yeah. you know there's I think a lot of people. sort of have different opinions about. this and I think probably every Hunt is. different and I think sometimes you. might observe those things and then. in your mind get a sense that oh this is. how they must do it because during that. hunt. he was over there and he was over there. and and they appeared to do that.

um in my experience. um that didn't seem to be that sort of. pattern of behavior it was it was not it. was not as organized as that actually. when it came to. to those parts of the hunt. also it's it's a very difficult thing to. observe and and to film so you really. having said we're getting amazing. details of their lives and. um but there are some activities that.

they do like a hunt my really you I mean. you're looking through windows in in the. canopy and just like oh you see a chimp. Leggett across there and over there and. then suddenly someone's got the monkey. in making sense of that. you know I think scientifically it's. really hard but from filmmaking point of. view you're you're capturing moments and. and you can piece together what's. happened there but there's definitely. things that haven't that you haven't. seen that have gone on behind trees or. leaves or so I think it's hard it's hard.

to kind of know exactly how they do it. is there any concern while you're doing. this that you're interfering in some. sort of a way or that you're going to. upset them that you're getting in the. way of the hunt or getting in the way of. their natural behaviors. it's a constant consideration like how. you know the worst thing we could. possibly do is to go in there and try. and observe the sort of real world of. the of the ingoga chimpanzees and then.

find ourselves having an impact on that. being sort of participating in it so. that's not that's no longer the real. world of the chimpanzees that's the. world of the Indigo gyms when they're. sort of distracted or impacted by human. observers so that. you know that would be that would just. ruin the whole point of it so it's a a. constant consideration. weirdly and it does I don't really have. an explanation for it and I've not. really heard one that that works for me.

either oddly. I'm sort of acknowledging you. um. they just don't seem to be impacted by. your presence at all like pretty much. ignore you and like chimpanzees are so. like spatially aware like they they they. live in this three-dimensional Forest. world where they they can just go from.

tree to tree horizontal vertical they. just they're very aware of everything. that's around them. you would assume in these chaotic. moments that you know you might get in. one's way or run into you and it never. happens and it's as if but but then. again you never see a chimpanzee run. into a tree either you know they they. know where everything is. and for some bizarre reason. they're they're totally accepting of. this sort of passive presence in the. forest these strange bipedal creatures.

that sort of follow and are close and. sort of Within. observing them and it's not like they. you know they acknowledge they. acknowledge it they know you're there. they're not just like like I said. earlier you're not spying on them you're. kind of part of it. but they're not interested in you hmm. strange like and until you're there and. you're in it it's it's it's sort of an. impossible thing to describe and it's a.

very difficult thing to understand until. you're actually right there and I think. when. you know when something's kicking off. and there's a lot of like excitement and. Chaos within the group. if you haven't experienced that before. it's intimidating and you can't quite. believe that you're not somehow gonna. get swept up in it. but but you don't at all and they you. know there's been Decades of this. happening earn go go where.

they're just they accept this sort of. passive presence in the forest I mean it. must be so weird you're there when they. get up. you know and you follow them around all. day and. you know. when they take a when they making. friends with somebody when they're doing. anything that they're doing you know and. you're just you're there. but they they appear. not to mind at all and it doesn't appear.

to impact their behavior at all that's. so fascinating. how close do they get to the. photographers the humans the the. Canberra people like. so. you know there are strict rules and go. go and and anywhere working with. chimpanzees because because we're so. similar they're they're susceptible and. vulnerable they're sort of human. infections so even things that don't. really bother us like a cough if we're a. cough or a cold that would be quite.

dangerous to transmit was this during. covid that you filmed all this you know. we started it was just after lockdown. but we had sort of we were prepared to. do it before covert kicked in and then. covert happened and the whole world shut. down and then we got out there as soon. as we could afterwards when things were. starting to open up you know because. Uganda wouldn't let any flights in for a. long time but as soon as they did. um we went out there. and and we had to be tested regularly.

for covid people were worried about. what would happen if a chipmunk got. covered right naturally very worried but. actually in place already there was were. um you know you have to wear masks you. can't go closer than seven meters. you you have you know if you're not. feeling well or or anything like that. you mustn't go and see the gems. um. and that's important because yeah chimps.

a common cold can be lethal to gyms. um. so. yeah so so for that reason you have to. stay seven meters away from them in the. forest and there's not much. it's not no I mean they say seven meters. is an absolute bare minimum. I encourage you to about 10 meters that. and that's just 20 feet yeah it's not a. lot so how far is that nothing that's. the closest room yeah no so yeah it's.

about yeah about the length of this room. that is is about the distance you should. be and and you do and you make you you. make concerted effort to make sure. that's the case however you know like I. said the The Chimps don't know that rule. so you can do whatever you can to. maintain that distance. and you know if they come a little. closer or come to sit down sort of you. know within about seven meters you you.

move back slowly but you don't you don't. you know it's not advisable to sort of. jump out of the way or you know you take. your opportunity and you slowly. um get that distance between you back. so but yeah it doesn't feel like a lot. at all particularly if there are gyms in. in every direction and because the Go-Go. group's so big it can be a lot you can. be in the middle of the choir an amazing. thing. and likes it you know I mean I know you. know the excite or some of the most.

dramatic parts of. chimpanzee life and Gogo. um you know is the the patrolling and. and a lot of the slightly more. aggressive elements but. you know most of the chimps day is spent. doing things that are just really. enjoyable to be around you know when. they're watching chimps groom is one of. the most sort of like relaxing like. you're I mean it looks so relaxing it's. kind of like it has quite a soberific.

effect on you like if you're in amongst. a group of chimps and they're all sort. of gently grooming each other you feel. very sleepy it's quite odd just watching. it it just looks so um you know it's. very gentle. you know these huge males who are. capable of. all sorts of things. very tenderly sort of Groom each other. or younger members of the group or the. females and like it really it looks so.

gentle that's going finally going. through each of the hairs there and just. really checking if there's anything. worth coming out and they just they go. from sort of fall asleep or look very. relaxed and. it's a met those moments are kind of. amazing actually because you sort of let. they really make you relaxed and then. there's a few kids will be playing. around sort of you know they're not. interested in Long grooming sessions so. they're just tumbling around in the. trees and things. you know that's the majority of chimp.

life actually. and what's so interesting about them. because it's such a far cry and such. huge difference between the more. aggressive side of chimpanzees. but again that's what makes them so. fascinating that that situation they can. be like that in the morning and you can. feel like you've just stumbled into this. this sort of paradise situation. everything's so delicate and it's so. tender and and playful but then by you.

know come the afternoon you know they've. got a job to do at the border and and. it's completely different atmosphere and. it's tense and same thing your sort of. heart rate is very East and you know you. kind of your state is determined a lot. by what The Chimps are doing. the The Grooming aspect of their. relationships is very unusual it's very. unique and very. very fascinating to watch because like. they they sit there and they allow each.

other to do this but there's also this. social hierarchy aspect of it and are. they looking for bugs are they looking. what are they looking for. they are yeah so there's like a there is. a real practical function that they're. they're looking for ticks like uh or. other sort of like external parasites. I don't know what the other things are. but there are you know they're big hairy. creatures and in the forest things get.

stuck in there. and ticks in particular and we you know. we. as humans going through the forest. you've got to be really careful with. text as well. um so yeah they are looking for specific. things but then if you watch what. they're doing and how they do it and. particularly with our real sort of. close-up lenses you can see in great. detail you know you can see the hairs. parting and exactly what they're going. for. um I don't know it feels like.

yes that's an important part of it but. actually the the purpose they're kind of. stroking each other and and how long you. do it for. um and then when you turn around and and. do it back all those things feel like. they're much greater social. value then so you know there's partly a. cleaning each other keeping each other. healthy that's definitely important and. I think you know they have to do it for.

that reason. but there's so many other layers to that. the relationship building and the. yeah. so when you're interacting with these. chips is there ever a moment where the. chimp tries to engage with the humans. no but. you know there are occasionally. individual and I say they're all. individuals so saying anything about the. chimps do this or they don't do that.

like you know we're really generalizing. the raw occasionally individual chimps. who even if they don't you know they're. not a threat to you they are showing a. level of interest that is different to. others. and there's a gym called Rich burgle the. chimp who's a one who was one of our. focal characters. in the West. and he's always been. very comfortable near me because usually.

The Chimps like they they have that a. little bit of it's a tiny bit of. residual fear of humans and I think. that's what makes them quite comfortable. with that distance as well they're like. they're okay if you come there but they. they actually don't want to be any. closer they that seven to ten meter rule. suits them too generally that's that's a. comfortable distance but you know I. don't want you that's as if the chimps. like they don't really want you coming.

sitting next to them that's that that's. not okay so and I don't know whether. that's just like what they like or. whether. they're used to it because over the. years that that is the distance that the. scientists have kept or whatever. but you do get some chimps that decide. to to come closer. um yeah in richburgl is one of those. chimps he orphaned at a young age very.

well habituated no fear of humans. whatsoever. um you know he's never made contact but. I think everybody who works with him uh. would say. you know he's the one that will come and. sit a little closer and or we'll walk. towards you and then at the very last. minute Veer off and it's just kind of. curious in a way that. um what the others aren't. now when The Chimps are on patrol that's.

a uniquely intense and aggressive moment. and it's so wild to watch to see them. these hulking chimpanzees move through. the forest in coordination when you're. there with that and you're very close to. these violent encounters with the other. chimps is there any concern there that. you could get caught up in this sort of. violent frenzy and maybe be in danger of.

being attacked or. you know. the the the Risen actually that that I. mean the the what let me let me rephrase. that I would say on a personal level of. course right you know you come you hear. about these things happening you know. it's a possibility we'll be there when. it happens when it's filmed so we ask. exactly the same questions so this is. you know I've been through the exact. same process as you are now and have.

this conversation with the scientists. like oh are we going to be safe right. you know is it safe for us to where. should we be or where should we not be. if this happens when we're there so. totally weird exactly the same questions. and we just didn't know and we were. reassured by the scientists you know. you'll you'll be amazed like wow you see. those things they will happen but they. will ignore you and their only warning. was that. definitely don't get too close you know. the because the level of excitement.

um Around The Chimps during these. encounters you know if there's ever a. time when they could accidentally come. very close to you or suddenly see you. and get a bit of a fright you know that. they wouldn't want they wouldn't want to. take that sort of a risk with us so they. did they did we were warned you know. keep a respectful distance from that. but. um amazingly and there's a little um.

a little behind the scenes clip that. we've sort of released on on YouTube now. and and you can see that. during. during the the biggest encounter that we. filmed. um. the the camera people were sort of like. in it and I'm around it and sort of at. one stage sort of like accidentally. between the two groups standing off and. you know that the certain way I mean The.

Chimps move so fast and they organize. reorganize separate or whatever so you. can try and be in the perfect position. but then that perfect position could. quickly become where you don't want to. be because of where the chimps have gone. so through no fault of their own. um you know there are times when they're. sort of they're in there sort of. it's a bit like being a war reporter or. something. um but. weirdly you know they're so focused on.

what it is they're doing and have no. interest in sort of involving or. redirecting their aggression to to the. humans at all. I think. you know because of. you know there are some quite hope high. profile and sort of like pretty tragic. sort of human chimp. interactions. no no I mean sort of like things that. happened at zoos or yes or whatever and.

I think that. it it I think it does give a sort of an. an unusual impression of what gyms are. like in in the wild they they have all. that sort of capability and more so you. know the ingogo chimps there's so many. of them and and they are engaged in. these sort of violent competitions with. other groups that's a very real thing. and and. and you know and it can get serious.

but their relationship with people is. just completely. different. to. a relationship chimps might have with. people in captivity or if they've been. kept as pets or something. um. yeah it's just it's it's not I I totally. get it in those exactly the sort of. things I wanted to know before I stepped. in and go go well I mean you know it. worked for sure you you need to know.

um. but amazingly when you've been there. around it. and even once you've just been on a. single Patrol with them actually and. they're exhilarating when you go on. patrol within Google gyms it's it's. amazing. they are taking you on a journey to the. edge of that border and they they're. fully committed and they're coordinated. and and we don't seem to care that. you're following and they're allowing. you to sort of be there that's amazing. yeah. it's a it's an incredible experience. actually it's real adrenaline yeah there.

they are look at that this was my. favorite part just watching them moving. coordination and just wondering like. what how do they know like what are they. doing almost seems like they're. gesturing in some ways like that chimp. with the one hand okay so this is the. behind the scenes but yeah exactly you. know gestures quite often that. oh it hands all over each other yeah. that that's undeniable this sort of. reassuring yeah gestures they they know.

they're they're in this like tense. situation they're nervous. I think that you can read into that that. they're sort of telling each other that. like I'm with you I'm with you I'm here. that physical contact is just. you know it's just reassuring each other. that we're in this together. um it's you and me. and when violence does break out what is. that experience like. I mean when you're seeing Chimp on chimp.

violence from several feet away that has. to be wild. I didn't let's say we I mean I don't. really want to give away any spoilers. for the series because some of some of. these things are sort of like major plot. points in this series I I know what. you're saying and I appreciate your. artistics it doesn't matter but it's so. good it's so good that even if you say. what happens and people get to see it. it's so yeah I mean and I would say that. like like I said I often personally well.

I wasn't there for many of the things. that happened. uh but it was some and I and I have been. there previously in GoGo where certain. things have happened. um. it's hard I I think that is. Chimp on chimp violence is is a lot. harder. um. to watch. um. than the chimple monkey violence for me. personally. and whether I'm there myself or whether.

I'm seeing it recorded later on I think. there's a this kind of a sadness to that. personally. um quite often it's because in truth the. it gets more serious if the chimps. outnumber them significantly so when. when chimps are kind of equal sized. groups when they come into contact. they're usually less violent situations.

because it's too much danger it's. there's no there's too much danger too. much at stake it's kind of a bit bravado. so they run at each other a few times. but if there's enough chimps on either. side. you can pretty much know that in this. immediate situation no one's going to. get badly hurt. uh they get badly hit when they're. outnumbered and obviously that on a. human level. just no one likes seeing that sort of. thing yeah you know there's there's just. a.

yeah that that it's just horrible it and. and it you know. unfortunately we've all sort of seen. that personally or clips of that in. humans and it's the most uncomfortable. horrible stuff and it really makes you. horrible. um. so. yeah all of that stuff is very hard to. watch sorry well now let's say even you. know interestingly. like I say we the scientists and go go.

we know them really well now and we've. worked with them for a long time so you. know we share things and they share. stories that on a more personal level. with us. um but they are obviously better than we. or a view would be detaching themselves. you know this is just what happens. they're there to observe and try and. understand it's not an emotional thing. but even even they who have been there. for many years and I think particularly.

because they've been there for many. years sometimes you see an act of. violence on a on a chimp that you've. known and been following around for ages. that he may not care about you but you. really care about them and and it's sad. yeah it's very sad. during the filming or at least on the. show there's one instance of the. chimpanzees killing uh another chimp was. there more of that. I'm not I'm not okay you think it's a.

spoiler alert but I'm telling you it's. just fine it's so complex it's so. fascinating and so good yeah I don't. okay good no no that's fine. I know it's you for me. it doesn't really matter it does not I. don't know it's so good it doesn't. matter okay yes okay so that happens. uh was it only one time while you were. there. wow yes no the well there's another.

thing in the series we're not going to. talk about okay like because that really. is. a spoiler but. um. yes couple of occasions. whilst we were there. and that is how I mean does it is it. conflicted do you almost have this like. feeling that you want to intervene and. protect the chimp or. I think yeah everybody.

who's been around those feelings you. wish it wouldn't happen right you you. don't want this to conclude in the way. that you think it might. um but again I think I I totally. understand what why you're asking but I. think once once you've been around them. enough and you and you have to have this. commitment to and it's part it's part of. the same point that you're asking.

earlier about that impact on their lives. you want zero impact on their lives or. or minimal right. you don't want any negative impact you. actually can't make up too much of a. positive impact either. you know also it just wouldn't be. practical it's not it's not safe you. know you know what could you do shout. and make a noise and try and disturb. them just enough for a moment the the. chimp could get away and.

you know. possibly but I think that it wouldn't be. you know it wouldn't be ethical right to. do it these are. it is natural behavior I mean that's my. take on it from what I've seen uh in. GoGo yeah the these this is part of. their natural behavior they are. competitive and they're Territorial and. those you know those behaviors have.

served them well in in the past so you. can't as much as it's not from a human. Observer point of view. that same thing taking that same. situation out is something you observed. in the street all those natural sort of. tendency desires to intervene and stop. something you know they're there for. good reason. um but you know this is the the entire. sort of the entire scientific project.

our commitment as filmmakers to observe. but not interfere I mean that's that's. all part of the same thing you couldn't. if you stepped out of that role. in any circumstance you've kind of. you've crossed a line in a really odd. way. um but so so and in a way that sort of. helps with the what you're feeling when. you see or observe those things because. well you know there's absolutely nothing. you can do about this right I mean of.

course ethically you really can't. intervene. but it's still sort of. I mean what a an amazing experience for. you as a human being to have gone. through this it's just such a rare rare. insight into the these animals and these. incredibly unique creatures and their. behavior it's just you must feel so. fortunate just to experience just as a. human being just as a life experience to. take that in uh I really do yeah I.

really do I mean this. you know I've been very lucky in lots of. bits of my job that I've done over the. years I think that you know it's a great. job it's very hard work a lot harder. than probably what people appreciate and. um but extremely lucky on on loads of. things I do feel within go go chimps in. particular like you say as a human being. from an existential sort of point of. view there's like. so I'm so fortunate and not really not.

many people get to see that and they are. our closest relatives and they are. fascinating because of the connections. we have with them they're all so. fascinating because they're different. and they're all individuals and and it's. the chance to just you kind of feel a. part of something the his you know. brought that. important knowledge and information.

um to people. yeah so I feel personally very fortunate. yeah how do you type that. um. are you always trying to talk your work. because I mean what you've done is so. extraordinary I I watched it and at the. end of it I was like how do you beat. that you know I mean you are always I. mean you're always trying to make. something better than you did before on. a personal and professional level you. want. yeah you want to do really cool stuff.

that people like and. um. so yeah I'm always thinking about what. what what could be you know what could. move things on I think. making a series about the in GoGo chimps. it is quite hard because they feel that. they aren't for all the reason we just. said they are occluses relatives they. are the biggest group. in terms of sort of story and character.

which I think is probably you know I. mean you're you're a chimpner and you. love like all bits of it and you're. fascinated on levels that a lot of. people maybe don't appreciate so I think. you you get the whole. whole thing but I think what um. potentially what the broader audience is. sort of you know really responding to is. is the characters and the stories you. know there are the real chimpanzee. characters that you can follow.

through the whole series. and and that is hard certainly harder to. do with other animal species you know. there's so much going on there in terms. of individual variation. and you know gym psychology. you know you're always just wondering. what are they thinking what are they. gonna do what's he making of that what. does she want now you know they invite. that level of intrigue.

that depth and of depth of character the. genuinely different characters who all. kind of want quite different things and. that is a sort of Storyteller in the. natural world is quite a unique. opportunity. so. yeah I don't know actually I'll just. rest for a while. do you have another project lined up. I I mean we've finished working on. chimpin by quite a long time ago so uh.

it's been over well about a year or. something we finished the edit. so I am working on other stuff already. um. but I can't I can't talk I understand. that yeah I would imagine if I was. Netflix if I was one of the CEOs I would. be in immediate conversations with you. about season two well I think I think. you're very wise and uh. I mean I I think we have we have talked. about it with the the commissioner Sarah.

Edelson who you know she loves the. series and was behind it from day one. shout out to Sarah yeah shout out Sarah. and she we've we've talked about it and. we talked about it even before we. started actually because I think you. know and she could see the potential. actually that you know this isn't a. this is a you know it's a window of time. into the in GoGo group but they don't. stop having interesting stories just.

because we stopped filming them so we. sort of knew there was that potential. and there is a kind of a conversation. that's all bubbling. away. but. you know I think waiting I think it is. the sensible thing to wait let this. series. you know have its impact whatever that. will be. um I like that I personally love love to. do it I think the whole team would be. like we can't stop now you know can we.

because it's still happening in GoGo. that's okay this the story for the. series is finished but the in GoGo story. continues. and we've learned so much and all that. um at the same time there is an argument. for saying you know it feels quite. definitive and. you know people would worry about. what we don't want to do is just rehash. the same sort of narratives yeah yeah. we wouldn't be the same thing because. all the gyms get older and new. characters want different things and you.

know in that story. happened in that time so everything that. happened there won't happen again but. still there's some you know the. experience of watching season one. is is it's partly of following that. story but you're also being introduced. to the in GoGo Champs and like you know. you're learning about. what they do and how they do it how they. relate to each other. um so there's a lot of that experience. which.

if you did a season two. you in a way it would be great because. you would jump straight into a story. um and not have to have as much. Exposition about. the groups but. yeah I don't know do you think it should. be another one yes okay yeah without. that I would watch it. is when uh an alpha controls the group. long generally is their rain. and what happens to them when they get.

pushed out. so that's interestingly that's different. in different chimp groups across Africa. but at in GoGo I think like six seven. years is the average like good tenure. there were been chimps who have taken. the alpha position but have not done it. very well and have been out after a year. um there's one chimp there Bartok who. was in charge for 10 years but he was.

very. who's very successful Alpha and very. politically astute so I think the. average in GoGo is sort of six or seven. years. um. yeah that's quite a long time because it. it's similar to presidential Reigns yeah. yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah it is. interesting I wonder you know it's like. the the peak of the their Prime and.

their control. they have a term limit it is interesting. because regardless of age as well so it. doesn't really feel like. yeah there isn't there is like at and go. go there's there's an average sort of. expectancy of alpha ship and I think. that's yeah six or seven years. and that's why we knew that Jackson at. the start of. um when we were filming we knew that he. was entering a period where. things could get tricky for him because.

he's been in charge for about six years. um. and it is very interesting that that. tends to be the term and the longer the. study goes on for the more interesting. those things become because I think in. the early days when they were first. observing The Chimps they were like okay. well he was in charge for three years he. was in charge for a seven and you know. what there didn't seem to be any pattern. so it was all sort of well you're just. at the top until someone knocks you off. but it does seem interesting that they.

don't see them lasting that much longer. you know they expect them not not to. stay there for much longer is there any. evidence that they learn from The Chimps. that are successful and they mimic this. sort of political behavior and sort of. like social awareness of keeping. everybody happy and sort of like. governing and you know in a sort of an. effective sort of harmonious way.

whether they see other chimps yes doing. well through that. I don't know I think that's a. I think that's a good question. um. I don't know the answer to that actually. I mean they certainly. there's leaders in. they adopt different strategies. individually and definitely the ones. that. that are better. at managing their political.

relationships and their allies they they. stay in power longer and they have an. easier time of it like bar talk. um. I mean these are gyms that passed long. before this series but you would be. you'd be interested in it Bartok it's a. small guy. um I'm gonna always looked big when he. was Alpha because they tend to sort of. they just hold themselves differently so. they puff their hair out pump it's. called pilo erect when they stick all. their hair goes on and it literally.

gives them a different silhouette a. different body shape. and so when you are alpha you tend to. look bigger anyway but even when he was. like that he didn't look as big as the. other chips he was a relatively small. chimp. but he was the longest serving Alpha. they've ever had in GoGo so he was the. most successful leader there and it was. right at a time when angogo was still. one massive group so he probably. was leader at the time when the group. was biggest for the longest period and.

he was also the smallest guy they've. ever had in George. and they put all that down to he was. extremely good at keeping his. relationships going with all the other. big males so all the big guys that could. threaten him he was grooming them all. the time keeping them happy wow and what. happens to them when they get overthrown. do they just assume a lesser position. but they I mean they they I.

can go go they they tend to everything. is okay after that like they they might. get beaten up badly in the overthrow. um they might get a bit injured there. but it's they've no it's never been. lethal I can go go whereas at other. sites I've heard the alphas have been. killed who you know they've been they've. been killed in in the transfer of power. that's never interestingly that's never.

happened in GoGo they. you know the the incoming. there could well be a big fight and some. minor injuries but then that's it and. there's a there's a new dominance. hierarchy established and as long as the. outgoing Alpha. um is submitting. to the incoming one in in the formal way. the pant Grant. whenever he comes by then that's just.

okay we've sorted this out we now know. like he's on top. and the other chimps know and but what. happens then is they they can sometimes. retain a sort of high position in the. hierarchy like miles for instance who's. Jackson's giant friend. he was Alpha for quite a brief period. and then I can't remember who was after. and then I think could have been Jackson. actually took it off miles miles.

remained high up there in number two and. number three sport he's always remained. powerful. but some of them you know Bartok I think. just after he left the alpha position he. just began the trajectory down the. hierarchy and just retired he was he was. out of it for not competing anymore. I'm all them done they just accept a new. position yeah and they just they really. drop down all the way down the hierarchy.

they're no longer competing in that the. higher levels of the dominance hierarchy. they they retire from that are you aware. of Robert sapolski's work with uh. baboons no sapolsky uh spent a lot of. time in embedded with baboons and one of. the things that he observed that's. incredibly unusual is is there was a. group of baboons that was eating food. that was in uh garbage that was from I. believe it was a resort and these uh.

particularly ruthless Alphas who would. have first accessed all this kind of. food they got poisoned because they ate. this bad food and they wound up dying. and it completely changed the way they. behave with each other the ruthless. Alphas died and all of a sudden it. became this sort of utopian civilization. amongst baboons where they didn't. exhibit that barbaric behavior and they. were much more kind to each other. that I didn't know that is fascinating.

and that's it that just shows the the. outsized impact some individuals can. have on on the overall sort of culture. of a group right much like humans yeah. yeah and I think the same thing has. happened in Google and lots of different. levels. like the the the central group ran by. Jackson. there's a lot of competition there's. there's not as much.

Play It's All quite quite harsh. existence. and then the Western Group were much. smaller. in number. they spend much more time playing and. socializing and and the females in that. group have a have a nicer time they get. beaten up a lot less often and that. doesn't sound like a very nice thing it. was a positive that oh and the females. don't get beaten up as much like that's. a good thing unfortunately in chimpanzee.

society that just does have you know and. it's not just I mean chimps beat each. other up it's a bit of life and the. females get. um get a part of that as well but. interestingly. females seem to to love being in in the. west and there's quite a lot of incoming. feelings into the Western Group incoming. incoming females into the Western Group. so they've got small number of males but. huge number of females.

and females have left the central group. and gone to the West. and they play a lot. how did they make transitions from one. to the other like if there's a the West. group like how does another chimpanzee. become embedded in that group. well it only it couldn't as a male. chimpanzee you can't do that no they're. just any male chimpanzee sort of going. over to the other side would just be met.

with extreme hostility. um females it's part of the the sort of. natural cycle the. um when females reach sexual maturity. they they leave the group where they. were born and it's to you know lots of. animals do that actually to encourage. genetic diversity yeah exactly so same. you know you see that in quite a lot of. different animal species.

um. and they do that you know. 10 11 whatever maybe a few years later. but at some point around that period. they will make that make that change. and and they arrive at a completely. different group they travel across the. forest and they sort of hang around on. the edges of that new group and just. gradually get accepted in but. you know chimpanzee communities except. females arriving from other groups do.

other females challenge that do they. they do they they generally get a very. hard time when they first come to the. group actually partly because the the. males are all very interested and you. know this is It's a purely positive. thing for the for a new female to arrive. at the group. but the the females that are there. already. will often be quite hostile to that new. female for quite a long period of time.

it's I think. you know during the during our series. our filming period one of the females. that we knew well. um left the group where. um. where she was and you sort of. so you worry about them because it's. inevitable that they're going from a. place where they know everybody and. they're treat it relatively well and.

you know it's it's their their sort of. family and social group and then they're. traveling across to a group where. everybody is sort of hostile. but the local females in particular. and that might last a while as well. um so for the first couple of years even. it could be. yeah it could be you know quite a. nervous anxious existence you're very. but yet they're compelled to do it. yeah wow yeah.

now when when they do this to do they. ever go back and forth. not I know of no so they they quit that. group they join another group and that's. where they stay yes. wow yeah as far as I know yeah. that's it that's the new life. in the new group but the interesting. thing now in GoGo because there's the. the former Giant and go go group is now. Central group and Western Group.

so in a way this is going to make. transferring as a as an adolescent. female. a much easier thing to do because. they're going to be turned some of them. will transfer from Central group to the. Western Group where they know everybody. actually because until a few years ago. they were part of the same group so that. um. that's different to. before so when the females from the. central group go to the Western Group. they know people already or they know.

excuse me they know chimpanzees already. they'll know some of them yeah I mean. it's been a it's been a few years. um. coming it was. 2018. oh when when they finally really. split and what was the cause of the. split. so I mean a number of different things. that kind of go back quite a few years. I'm in the sheer size of the group you. know never been documented anywhere the.

the in GoGo the numbers of chimpanzees. Indian girl the original and GoGo group. are more than twice the size of the next. biggest group so it was a bit of a. mystery how they were holding together. anyway. and also whether they would hold. together forever can they really just. keep on growing and maintaining. staying as one group bearing in mind. there's still the same sort of social. structure see still.

have a single alpha male but the group. is risking bigger and bigger and bigger. hmm. now even back when I was there a few in. like 2015 previously so this was before. they split but at that point. um. remember Kevin langergrabber one of the. the scientists that was there at the. time. um. they he was explaining that actually the.

in GoGo Community is a bit different. like they are one group but they have. these little subgroups like. neighborhoods within within the. territory and so they're already. describing some of these neighborhoods. as the easterners and the westerners and. stuff they were part of the same group. and they the males would you know Patrol. the territory together they were on the. same team. but they hung out in different areas and. and it was quite you know they they'd.

really have an association with that. area that was much stronger and they did. think well that was the beginning of. sort of okay well we're sort of spending. less time with them when we see them. we'll groom and it'll be fine but we're. gradually spending less time with each. other and that was sort of the beginning. I think of of these sort of Divisions. um. and then I don't know big big fights.

um. particularly between Jackson and the. other the the what became the leading. Western males. um. yeah big big big fights there the. I think contributed to this sort of. growing divide and then there just came. a point in 2018. where the scientists were saying. you know what though the own they're. properly separate groups now.

this is it you know do any of the. females from the Western Group go to the. central group when they reach sexual. maturity. class happened yet no but I think they. will expect I mean this is all this is. all new because 2018. yeah I mean this. is the the whole thing about the this. series which I feel like you know you're. asking me where I felt felt lucky I mean. I'm very lucky just spend time with the.

in Google gyms but at this period is is. fascinating because you know brilliant. for filming and the potential for. interesting story to unfold was was. right there from the start but it's also. it's scientifically tote it's unknown. territory. um. and the you know we we worked with them. I keep name checking people but it's. also reminding me the different roles. that they sort of played John matani.

who's one of the the main scientists. there. he was really the one who sort of. highlighted when this happened sort of. how how unique this was gonna be. and I remember thinking oh this is. amazing uh God what this new thing has. happened at in Gogo. but he was saying well look it it caused. it is fast it's a fascinating thing to. happen but now we have two groups that.

are both completely habituated to human. presence and their rivals. and so as scientists we can be there and. study what happens between these two. groups and as filmmakers too you have. access to this sort of being on this the. two different sides of this chimpanzee. rivalry and with equal access now that. never. happened before because. usually chimpanzee groups.

the habituated group the ones that. scientists have got used to human. presence you can study them and and film. them very closely but the wild chimps. the truly wild not used to people ones. you can't get close to them as a. scientist or as a filmmaker you know. they're out there you can hear them. um but you can't get close to them so. the the the split. presented this fascinating situation. scientifically but also this really. unique filming opportunity we can.

literally be embedded. in these two different groups and and. nobody knows what's going to happen over. the next year or two and. but but we know it's going to be. interesting and we know there's sort of. there's a new situation here that. that. yeah Anything could happen that sounds. like a pitch for season two to me it did.

because there's so much that could. happen yeah. there is and honestly yeah it does sound. like I want to pitch for season two it. is fascinating what's happening there at. the minute. you would find it. personally fascinating oh I'm sure I do. I mean just watching it I find it. personally fascinating. listen uh I just think you did a. fantastic job and you should be very. proud of it and it's a as a person who. is very fortunate enough to be alive.

when this is airing on Netflix it's it's. uh it's really groundbreaking stuff and. I I mean until I understood until I knew. the I mean we kind of watched some of. the behind the scenes footage but I had. no idea how long it took to get these. chimps accustomed to the scientists and. the camera people being there it's just. so unique yeah that's you can't. underestimate that I know it sounds like. I'm sort of trying to check credit with.

them for it but you just you cannot. underestimate how valuable yeah that is. like that that's true of it almost any. vast majority of cool things you see. captured on film with with animals is. okay the film crew did a great job but. usually. that was because there were years and. years and years of sort of scientific. work beforehand that even just enabled. you to get in a position where you could.

see it but also to understand it what. was happening. and it and it's so you feel it with the. in GoGo chimps we just felt it from the. beginning you feel it every day like all. the things that that you're wondering. about things that amazed me at the start. like those are possible because of a. like Decades of work and Decades of of. tracking and following these chimpanzees. in in the most. responsible way as well so this this.

what would be a sort of fragile. relationship between humans and our. closest all the things that's amazing. about it because of what they did over. over the decades there and. and everything that we knew about every. one of those chimps we were able to. study their back before we even went out. we could study their backstories like. for over 200 chimps detailed information. about every gym when they were born who. their relationships were with certain.

events in their lives any trauma that. they'd had who they liked who they. didn't like it we got a proper sense of. who each individual chimp was and all. that you know that's just that's all the. scientists providing that so. yeah I'm I'm not just giving the shout. because I feel like they just it's just. if if you're actually interested in. understanding how that works like that. we we slid in on the back of that that. is.

how the this sort of project works with. the with the access to the chimpanzees. but it's actually it's the access to the. scientific project and the Ugandan Field. track as you do it and they've just you. know they've done it. for 30 years and then you know. fortunately. they said to us something really. interesting happening and they supported. us doing it. well I mean so fortunate and so unique.

and I remember uh the first time uh. seeing the the very first episode just. blown away like how how did they do this. how they get so close I mean it's like. are they using drones I was like do they. have camera traps everywhere like how. are they doing this it's just. so incredible and just so fascinating so. unique and congratulations that that. means a lot thanks very much oh my. pleasure and thank you very much for. being here I really really appreciate it.

and can't recommend it enough chimp. Empire chimp Empire is on uh Netflix. right now there's four parts they're all. amazing. you guys nailed it it's incredible and I. really really hope thank you so much. I really appreciate it and thanks for. having me my pleasure my pleasure. um do you have social media you want to. tell people about yeah I don't really no. I'm not big on social media good for you. congratulations I'm not really I used to.

give my personal email don't do that. don't do that unless I mean there's. something that someone can contribute no. I don't have any personal uh social. media presence whatsoever but there's um. I mean there is actually. chimpanzee project have a Facebook page. okay and and they sort of yeah and. they're very good they kind of. they get the things that that people.

from from the public will be interested. in they post things about what's. happening uh at uh and go go so people. who are genuinely interested in what's. happening with the in Google gyms there. is there's a Facebook page okay so we'll. send it to there thank you very much. really really appreciate it thank you. thank you cheers bye everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. foreign. okay.