Joe Rogan Experience #1975 - Dan Flores

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day yeeha and we're up how are you Dan. great to see you great to see you too. Joe um listen man I know I've talked to. you since uh I read Coyote America but. God damn that's a good book it's such a. good book so I'm very excited about this. I'm sure this is going to be awesome too. wild new world the Epic story of animals.

and people in America I've told so many. people about coyotes because of you and. I seem so. smart well I appreciate that it's it's. such a crazy animal you know one of the. things that's interesting about coyotes. in uh our area is they don't howl I. think they've learned oh yeah that's uh. that that's happening in La too they've. learned not to howl really interesting. yeah attracts attention to them well I. used to hear it a lot where I lived I.

lived in Ventura County and we had real. problems with them like they killed all. my chickens it like they were everywhere. but also [ __ ] cool you know I it's. such a conflicted thing cuz I hated them. because they killed my chickens and um I. but and they also honey potted my dog. into killing my chickens did I tell you. that story no you didn't tell me that oh. boy listen to this this is how smart. these [ __ ] are I had this dog. rest in peace his name was Johnny Cash. He was the best dog I'll get.

sad but. uh let me catch my breath here because I. really love that dog oh I understand. this I just lost a dog last. May this dog was just he was just such a. sweetheart but he was a big dog he was a. Mastiff a Regency Mastiff his father was. actually on Fear Factor and his father. was this we we put people in these big. bite suits and they had to run and we. did it with Belgian malams and the.

problem was for like really super. athletic guys like we had some like uh. real high-end athletes on the show. occasionally like at like amateur. football players guys were just stacked. and strong as hell and a malen Juan no. matter what it's still only 60 70 PBS. and so we brought in these Regency. Mastiffs because they wanted to figure. out a dog that could do bite work but. was way stronger this dog was like a. buck 60 and built like a brick [ __ ]. house his dad my dog's dad was actually.

in the movie The Hulk if you ever saw. the movie The Hulk with Eric bam when. they turn the dogs into Hulk dogs that. was actually that dog so my friend Joe. shout out to Joe who raised these dogs. he raised them for intelligence and. temperament and he wouldn't let any dog. breed that had any aggression towards. other dogs or any aggression towards. people so they were the best dogs and so. this dog was hanging out with all these. other dogs that were doing bite work and. everything and he was just so chill just. hanging out go how does this dog so.

chill and just like he goes he's just. [ __ ] smart he's smart he's well. raised and well trained and loved so. anyway I had his. son and uh he was the [ __ ] best but. he was in the yard during the day um and. a coyote would come by the fence and the. fence was six feet high like a rod iron. fence he couldn't get over this fence he. didn't even try to get over the it was a. nice big yard but the coyotes could get. over that fence like it didn't even. exist it was wild to watch I watch one.

with a chicken in his mouth jump and put. his feet at the top of that fence and. over like like a Cirus acrobat oh it was. amazing so we had um this large Coupe. where the chickens were that the coyotes. couldn't figure out a way to get into. and then have You Ever Raised chickens. before uh my dad raised chickens there. they do a thing called brooding and what. brooding is um chickens lay an egg you. know almost every day.

but none of them are going to become. chicks because there's no rooster so. these are unfertilized eggs but they. don't understand that so they decide. every now and again that this egg is. going to become a chick and they won't. let anyone near it and they pluck their. feathers out and they just sit on this. egg and they they stop making eggs and. they get real weirded out and the only. way to cure them of this is to put them. in a smaller pen with a post so that. they have to hold on to the post to. stand they can't sit and squat like over.

an egg so you put a post in there put a. small Coupe next to the coupe it takes a. little a I forget how many days it takes. but they get over it then you can put. them back in with the regular hands well. that little Coupe this sneaky ass. [ __ ] coyote had figured out that he. could get my dog to destroy that little. Coupe cuz my dog was he was huge and so. somehow or another this coyote became. friends with my dog just kept hanging. around and my dog's like oh it's another.

dog cuz he has a little dog friend like. this is my other little dog friend hey. what's up buddy what are you doing he's. like hey you want to know where the. chickens are and uh my pool guy [ __ ]. up and left one of the gates open into. the where the the chickens usually are. and uh I was inside the house with my. kids and and my wife and we were playing. some sort of a game I forget what game. it was but I saw in the background a. coyote run across the backyard and hoop. the fence with the chicken in his mouth.

I'm like [ __ ] I thought maybe. somebody left the coupe open or. something happened so I run outside and. there's Johnny standing over this. destroyed Coupe that he was so proud. that he busted apart the coyote tricked. him into smashing that Coupe and then. the coyote grabbed the chicken and ran. off with. it I wish I'd known about this story. when I was. Ring put it in there how amazing is that. like there's no doubt in my mind that. that k he tricked that dog into doing.

that cuz that dog had never destroyed. that Coupe and then afterwards he. realized he's so strong he can go right. through the whole CPE so he tore a hole. in the mesh the chicken wire he just. tore it apart just he was so big and. then he went in and killed nine of them. and we your dog killed nine of he killed. nine of them I had I had 22 of them at. one point in time and he killed nine of. them in one like in just as much time as. it took for him to get out there he. [ __ ] up a couple other ones too but.

they lived he was just grabbing him and. shaking them and grabbing them and Shake. he was having a party unfortunately he. was taught to do that by the [ __ ]. coyotes well I mean this this is an. example of what one would call animal. culture you know I I make an argument. for it in uh in Wild new world that this. is something that happens fairly. commonly animals just like us have. culture and they teach one another. things that sounds like a pretty good. for instance of it well they're so. clever they're so clever and it's so.

interesting our thoughts about. intelligence because just until recently. we've realized how intelligence Ravens. how intelligent ravens and crows are. about they can use tools they they. understand water displacement so if they. can't drink out of something they'll. drop rocks into it so the water level. raises so they can drink out of it yeah. I mean it's brilliant stuff so I wonder. because we don't have a way of measuring. that with coyotes I wonder how smart. those [ __ ] are.

are well they are uh I think probably. among the the smartest of the wild. animals uh certainly in America I mean. you know one of the reasons we. domesticated wolves and and created dogs. out of them is because for one thing we. understood them they live in the same. kind of circumstances we do in social. groups they have to acculturate their. pups just the way we have to do with. kids and so I think uh part of the.

explanation for why dogs are our oldest. domesticate is because of their ability. to understand us to understand human. language I mean this is one of the. theories for early domestication of. wolves is that there were some of them. that were not only hypersociability. Learners we didn't have to learn their.

language they learned our language and I. think that is probably an indication of. you know coyotes are out of the canid. family all these creatures come out of. the same family from 5.3 million years. back and I think coyotes in some. respects may be the shrewdest and. cleverest of all those groups because. unlike wolves they're not the big bronny. dogs on the Block they're the ones who. have to play this game of man I can't.

let this big Burly wolf get me I've got. to figure out how to elude it and that's. that's responsible for a lot of their. intelligence and cleverness is they. co-evolved alongside wolves for so long. they had to learn how to be the little. guy who managed to survive by his wits. yeah and also one of the things that I. learned from your book that's a good. thing to bring up here is that they are. not directly related to greywolves so. they didn't interbreed with them they. inter breeded with wolves so when theay.

wolves were around theay wolves just. slaughtered them and so they had. developed this ability to spread their. territory which is what when humans. started killing them now they're in. every single city in the country and. this is re like when did that happen. it's relatively recent right yeah the. expansion uh started really out of two. two things two things that took place in. the early 20th century uh one was the. ation of wolves in the East which.

created an open Niche for a midsize. predator and the other was this campaign. that uh first the states and then the. federal government began to launch. against against coyotes and wolves in. the west and the government was the. government Hunters were pretty. successful in taking out wolves because. wolves are so attuned to be pack animals. that if you kill one wolf in a pack you. could use the from that wolf basically.

to catch trap kill every single wolf in. the pack but coyotes responded to that. basically by going you probably remember. our conversation about this Joe back in. 2017 they would go into what's known as. a fishing mode they are coyotes like. humans are fishing Fusion animals and. when they're in Fusion they can exist in. a pack when they're in fishing they. break apart the packs and in angles and. pairs they scatter and that's what they.

do when they're pressured they learned. how to do this from wolves and so when. we started trying to take them out with. poisons and gunning in the west they. went into this fishing mode and it. caused them to start spreading across. the country and that started in the. early 20th century I mean when I was. growing up in Louisiana in the 1960s. coyotes were First beginning to appear. uh in Louisiana which is how I got. fascinated with them first beginning. yeah First beginning in the the early.

1960s I started seeing them in about. 1962 or something 61 or two is there a. historical record of them ever being on. the East Coast. previously no there is not other than. really were just a West Coast animal. well there's a there's an archaeological. a couple of archaeological sites dating. from the pla scene from 10,000 years ago. that appear to show coyotes.

uh probably fairly randomly appearing in. places like Virginia and Pennsylvania. but in the historical record that we. have they weren't on the East Coast. until the middle of the 20th century and. they start showing up uh in Northern New. York and Upstate New York by about the. 1920s or so and they start coming down. uh south from that point until I mean. that finally they're reaching Manhattan.

for example in the 1990s had this had. they already had wolves already been. extrait at this point yeah wolves had. been taken out I mean the the great uh. you know and I talk about it in Wild new. world the whole wolf campaign in America. but the two guys who put together this. classic volume uh on wolves the Wolves. of North America um Stanley young and EA. Goldman published this work in 19 44. they're government Hunters uh and they.

argue that by. 1944 there are no Wolves at all left. east of the Mississippi River wow they. are all gone there are wolves down in. Louisiana uh in the Deep South there's. still some red wolves there's 1,400 or. so gray wolves up in the Great Lakes. Country but even in the west I mean in. in their book in 194 before they claimed. there are only six wolves remaining in.

the state of Wyoming wow even with all. those animals and all that public lands. I mean the campaign against wolves has. been that successful so yeah by by 1950. or so there are no wolves in the East. and that opens up this Niche for coyotes. to come in and fill it and one of the. other things that I learned from you is. that coyotes when they do that roll call. when they scream out and howl if one of. them is missing the female will make. more.

pups yeah they are able to when they. when they howl one of the things they do. with howls I mean they're communicating. all kinds of things but one of the. things we're pretty certain they do with. hows is to take a census of how many. coyotes are in the area because of. course howling is infectious both for. coyotes and wolves whenever they hear a. howl they'll respond to it and if during. the Spring mating period uh if how. produces fewer responses in a particular.

area it can trigger something not. exactly sure uh in coyotes that will. have the effect of producing larger. litters and of course with fewer fewer. other predators in an area one of the. things that happens is it the food base. is larger so if you've got if you have a. coyote pack has uh say seven pups if. there are fewer coyotes that have been.

taken out by trapping or poisoning or. whatever it's possible to get more of. the pups up to adulthood because there. are more food resources so it's kind of. a loop that functions like that the. coyotes are certainly playing a role uh. in it uh but of course our attempts to. take them out are producing this. feedback that often causes them to have. larger litters to be more successful in. raising their their pups and they will.

respond by rising to the level of the. carrying capacity of the landscape in. any case it's just amazing and it's. amazing how well they adapt to Los. Angeles they're everywhere yeah I. remember the first time I saw one it was. 1994 and I was uh they had these uh pre-. furnished apartments that I I got one of. those when I first moved to LA it's the. Oakwood apartments and uh it was in. Burbank I mean you're in the middle of. everything this where The Tonight Show.

films I'm driving on the street and I. see these two little wolves I was like. what the [ __ ] is that and I'm like oh my. God it's coyotes oh yeah cuz I had heard. but I was like what you see coyotes like. how often you know how often like right. there right away yeah I mean you know. Walt Disney uh was doing films about. coyotes in the Hollywood Hills in the. early 1960s oh but coyotes had been.

there all along I mean that was you know. they were there when La was founded and. they basically never left I mean there. records back in the 20s and 30s of you. know the local authorities sending. people out to uh to try to take out. coyotes way back hundred years ago so. they've always been there when I would. uh have talks with friends you know that. lived there they were upset about. coyotes I'd say but you know what's. great when was the last time you saw a. rat. that's right I mean like La the hills.

like where I used to live in ventur. County should be littered with rats they. should be everywhere there's garbage. cans everywhere where's all the rats. yeah they're all getting jacked by. coyotes and owls well that's one of the. great things about coyotes being in the. East I mean you know the whole all the. East Coast cities have huge problems. with rats they should let them lose in. New York City just yeah no kidding but. the rats they'll take out your rats I. watched a rat trip a mous trap a rat rap. today have you ever seen this yes watch.

this Jamie you're the best how did you. do this man he was right on top of the. best so look at this rat this rat goes. he's he realizes that's a trap he's nice. piece of cheese on it so he brings a. stick and he trips the [ __ ]. trap I mean come on man how smart are. those little [ __ ] that little. tiny ass brain how smart is he he's. using tools he's using a tool that's. right I mean that's incredible I mean. it's really incredible and he knows what.

he's doing he didn't even freak out look. see see how he reacted no it didn't. startle him at all at all imagine being. a wild animal subject to Predators. subject to other territorial rats and. you you're not even freaked out by a. giant spring snapping down on a board. yeah that could break your neck easily. that's supposed to kill you that's a. he's got to know probably these things. kill my friends oh yeah I and I mean. that certainly is uh you know it's a. trait common to the whole wolf story in.

America too because wolves learned all. these kinds of techniques I mean I don't. really have a record of a wolf using uh. a tool like that but they certainly. learned and taught one another uh over. many many U Generations how to avoid. traps what to do when people were trying. to poison them and how to spit out bait. if they spell smell strick nine in it so. that kind of thing is uh a fairly uh. common response of animals that feel as.

if humans are after them one of the. things that I noticed when I I I rented. a house in enino for a while and uh we. had a problem with rats in the garage. and one of the things I noticed is rats. had realized if they get to the garbage. in the garage there's no coyotes and. owls and so the only time I ever saw. rats was in my own house was in my. garage and one time the Trap went off. and uh I heard I was in the kitchen and. I open the door and there's a rat like.

the size of my forearm I mean it's a. huge rat I was like look at that sucker. Jesus Christ but it was late at night I. was like I'll clean this [ __ ] up. in the morning I'm going to bed I went. to bed I got up in the morning there was. nothing left but the tail they had eaten. him that's a hard hard world and that. world is existing simultaneously with me. a a a [ __ ] young kid who's on a sitcom.

who's uh going to drive his sports car. into this uh studio in Hollywood and at. the same time like this cannibalism. fight for survival is going on in my. garage but I don't even think that it. applies to me no you don't and you know. I have an agent I have I have a manager. I have to call a sports car yeah I have. a sports car I have a Toyota Supra but. it was like watching that seeing that.

thing take place it was very I'll never. forget it because it made me realize oh. you coexist with brutality you just. you're just not completely aware of it. this is real nature it's h happening. right here you've just everyone's numb. themselves to with buildings and fast. food but this is happening right right. where you are and that's why coyotes are. so fascinating to me I mean even when I. watched that one kill my chicken and hop. over the fence with it I was like. respect I got to respect this game well. you got to respect that kind of.

athleticism for one thing the. athleticism but also the cleverness. figuring out how to trick the big dog. cuz he couldn't break the coupe he. triggered out he figured out get the. he's like hey you big [ __ ] go. break that. thing it's there they're amazing animals. but you know [ __ ] it sucks if they eat. your cat it sucks I've had a bunch of. friends and I've you know and family. members that have and recently a very. good friend of mine out here lost his. dog it's you know it sucks and you know.

a coyote just tore your [ __ ] little. buddy alive well I know it does I mean I. I will admit I've never had anything. like that happen with a dog in part. because I always have really big dogs I. have Alaskan Malamutes which you know I. mean my the dog I lost as I mentioned. last year last May I mean he was 140 lb. Alaskan malamud and so he would sit on. the front porch and a pack of coyotes. would Trot through the yard in New. Mexico and the alpha male of the pack.

would turn and Grimace at him uh show. his teeth but uh you know Cody which is. my dog's name would just sit there on. the porch and kind of smile I mean a. coyote you know even a good-sized coyote. in New Mexico a good adult male is. barely going to weigh 35 pounds so Cody. outweighs him five times so I've not had. that experience I've lost cats a couple. of times because I've always lived in.

the country I mean my whole adult life. I've bought places outside town and. usually uh or built places outside town. and lived uh half an hour away from the. city where I was working or where I had. to commute to so I always lived around. uh wild animals of all kinds and I've. lost cats two or three times at least. one time for for some reason I I never.

found uh the cat just disappeared but. the other couple of times I lost. cats uh what I concluded was that it was. actually great horned owls that got them. and what I've often uh told people. who've you know related to me their. stories about coyotes getting their cats. uh or getting small dogs is that one of. the questions I always ask is did you. find your pet was it lying there because.

if it's lying there that's probably an. indication that it may have been a. coyote coyotes often uh will kill small. dogs not because they want to eat them. but because they regard them as inter. Gill predators that are invading their. territory but if the dog or the cat. completely disappears is gone and you. don't find it or you only find it months. later that's usually a Great Horn out. because they will pluck up a small dog.

or a cat and they fly away with them to. their roosting spot I mean there are. instances where great horned Al Roose. have. yielded 75 cat collars with Kiki and you. know mousy and so forth on the names on. the collars but the owls have just. snagged them and taken them off and. eaten them and the owners never know. what happened and a lot of people. because they're aware of coyotes being. on the scene they will they will assume. that it's a coyote that's done it that's.

fascinating 75 collars yeah wow I love. owls one of the the wildest videos that. I ever saw was this night vision video. of a nest and there's these Hawks in a. nest and you just see in the distance. the eyes of the owl as it swoops in and. just snatches a hawk out but the. ferocity watch this the way it hits this. Hawk that's are those baby hawks bang oh. man look at that and the other one's. like what the [ __ ] happened yeah no.

kidding what the [ __ ] happened what the. [ __ ] happened I mean play that again. Watch I I love the eyes when you see the. eyes in the distance look at this here. here it. comes bang. yep yeah what an amazing Predator right. that's what happens to to a lot of cats. oh I'd imagine I'd imagine yeah there. was I mean there's a story in the little. town near where I live in New Mexico of. people sitting out uh uh on on the front. porch of the cafe bar one evening as a.

cat is walking the railing in front of. them and while 7 or eight people are. sitting there drinking beer and shooting. the [ __ ] and the cat is walking the. railing just like that scene suddenly. out of nowhere Great Horn Owl appears. bang hits the cat and they're all. sitting there open eyed watching this. owl fly away with the cat squirming in. its claws disappearing into the tree. cover down on the river you imagine. being a cat. and all the you know you've been killing.

birds forever oh like if you're a cat. outside one thing that uh I found that I. actually learned from our good friends. steveen Rella was the sheer numbers of. animals that feral cats and wild cats. just outdoor cats kill every year it's. unbelievable it's unbelievable it's an. animal Holocaust it is billions of. animals it is and you know there are. ornithologists who are great ad for. coyotes appearing on the scene and.

taking out cats that people either feral. cats that are living outside or cats. that people just let sort of roam so. they can actually kill birds look at. this a recent study by the smith. Smithsonian Institute in the US fish and. wildlife service estimated that domestic. cats kill about. 2.4 billion birds and 12.3 billion small. mammals each year in the lower 48 states. alone that is incredible yeah that's.

incredible that's how ruthless those. little [ __ ] are those numbers. are hard to wrap your mind around and so. I mean it's a you know it's an argument. for people who have cats I mean don't. let your cat do this yeah don't let your. cat do this or an owl's going to get him. yeah that's right I mean the owl prop we. see obviously owls eat birds the owl. probably also thought of as the cat as a. predator a fellow PR but also prey yeah. also prey yeah isn't it interesting how. there's certain animals that we have uh.

anthropomorphized and put these weird. characteristics to and with owls they're. like wise and they give advice they're. like give a hoot don't pollute like the. the owls tricking the Candy People how. many licks does it take to get to the. center of a what is it a licorice. Tootsie Roll a Tootsie Roll pop what's. inside a licorice takes it takes three a. little and he crushes it and he he's. he's playing a game. like they're they're clever it's.

interesting like that we always think of. them as being very wise like ours in in. cartoons they wear. glasses which is hilarious because they. have the greatest vision of all time. like why why do they need glasses they. have giant [ __ ] eyes that see Crystal. Clear late at night but we we give them. glasses well it gives them that studious. intellectual look but a bizarre choice. and that's stuck with us like if you ask. most people about owls they think of. them oh the wise old. owl ruthless monster a raptor that flies.

down and just swoops [ __ ] up and flies. away with it and it lives amongst. people they do indeed and uh you know. the next time you see one just uh sort. of make a projection in your head about. how many cat collars may be lying at the. base of the tree that all is RO I saw. one two nights ago I saw one swoop. across the road I was like wow they're. cool man they're so big it's like it's. kind of stunning how big they are you. know you think of an owl as being a. small bird but you see their wings span.

and their body that's a pretty large. that's why it makes sense they could. snatch up a cat oh yeah great Great Horn. house in particular I mean they have. like a you know three and a half foot. wingspan three and a half to four foot. wingspan I mean they're really big and. they sound cool you know when it's night. time and you're outside and you hear one. bird wo woo and you know that that's a. ruthless killer a ruthless allseeing. killer just perched up on things they're. so good at killing things you can get a. rubber one and it keeps everybody away.

you know that oh yeah sure I've done it. you have you done it oh yeah I have done. it isn't that crazy it works for a while. and then they realize yeah and then they. realize it's fake but yeah it works for. a while how long does it work for well. it depends on what you're trying to. alarm you know I mean some some birds. are quicker than others I mean as you. mentioned a few minutes ago you know a. raven is not going to be uh tricked by. something like that for more than uh a. day or so uh you know a raven will. quickly get it some birds are not so.

fast on the uptake Raven will probably. start [ __ ] on it oh yeah on purpose. yeah I actually have a a kind of a a. wild pet Raven at the moment and really. yeah and have had since I since I lost. my dog and I've just got a new dog just. got a new puppy here recently uh but I. had lost my dog he was sort of my. constant companion uh and um and I. realized that I mean I spend a lot of. time I've raised with animals from a.

little being a little kid um in fact. I'll I'll I'll tell you a story in a. minute sort of how this wild new world. book came to be it has came out of the. first animal companion I ever ever had. and what happened to it but um this. particular Raven started hanging around. where I mean in New Mexico and the. Southwest we have a lot of rats and mice. uh and they'll of course what rats in. mice do which is the reason the East.

Coast cities have such a problem with. rats is that they're drawn to human. inhabitations because we produce excess. stuff for them to get into food in. particular so commonly I'll have a uh a. rat zapper or two out and every two or. three days I'll catch a mouse or or a. rat and so I had this particular spot. where I was taking these rats and mice. out and and dropping them and I noticed. that a raven started flying up on a. nearby tree and waiting for me to do.

this and so after this happened four or. five times and I began to look at this. Raven and I thought the way that Raven. is Lighting on the same spot this is the. same Raven keeps coming back to this. exact Branch so I started experimenting. with what happens if I drop the rat out. and just back up 10 ft The Raven would. wait a minute or so and then fly down. and pick up the rat so then I started.

closing the distance into 5T and then 3T. this raven over time came to realize I. was no threat I was providing a free. meal and so since that time and that. started happening about six months ago. since that time I've got this raven that. basically when my new puppy and I go out. for walks in the canyon below the house. uh outside Santa Fe this raven actually. flies along with us lighting from One.

Tree to another wow waiting for me. hoping that I'm going to provide him. with some sort of free meal and what. I've taken to doing when the dog is not. paying attention or asleep and I don't. have a mouse to give him is I'll pull. four or five Kibbles of dog food out and. I can put those things anywhere and that. Raven will fly down and pick them up and. walk around and talk to me and make the. these these sounds that I actually.

haven't quite figured out I haven't. understood I'm not as smart as wolves. were about human language I haven't. figured out Raven language yet but this. raven talks to me and so we have. conversations uh I have no idea what. he's saying but he's very vocal and he's. very expressive you know that was that's. amazing story and that was one of John. Lily's things that he was working on. with dolphins and he was trying to use. LS to better communicate with dolphins. and he used sensory deprivation tanks.

and you know it's his idea was there's. got to be some way to crack that code. and to at least intuitively understand. what these things are saying and they. even tried to get Dolphins to speak. human language CU they could apparently. understand what we were saying but we. couldn't understand what they were. saying so they were trying to get. dolphin but they just don't have lips. they don't have a tongue like ours just. like they can't make the same noises. their noises are so different but yeah. all those people that are studying orcas.

and dolphins they've determined that. there's dialects that they sound. different in different areas but they. have no idea what they're saying no idea. which is amazing no but they they are uh. communicating with one another they. can't communicate with us and the. conclusion we draw from that of course. is that other animals other creatures in. the world are not as intelligent as we. are but the truth. is uh all the recent science of about. animal culture and about animal.

Consciousness is indicating something. that I think we sort of uh as early. humans living amongst wild animals in. Africa in Europe and Asia and ultimately. in the Americas understood is that these. are creatures that share with us all the. traits that we tend to think make us. distinctively human we think that the. ability to talk the ability to transmit.

culture is what makes us exceptional. among all other creatures and yet what. we're discovering almost day by day uh. from the scientific literature that's. been focused on these things is that. animals just like us have culture as. Charles Darwin said it's just a matter. of degree not kind they have all the. same attributes and all the same. abilities. they just don't have things like 8.

billion other members of their species. to be thinking up ideas and transmit to. one another around the world yeah. through things like the internet or or. Twitter or 5,000 years ago written. languages I mean what we've done is. we've been able to amplify all those. abilities by how many of us there are. and our ability to communicate with one. another but so many other creatures I. mean there was a a declaration on.

Consciousness issued by a bunch of uh of. uh biologists uh in Europe in 2012 that. argued that the higher species in. particular some of the ones that we've. been talking about here share the same. level of cultural uh. transmissibility of the ability to. communicate with one another uh the. ability to plot out strategies for. new problems that they confront just.

like the the Ravens we were talking. about or about the rat who used a tool. to to set off that trap so all these. kinds of things that we've thought for. so long make us exceptional in the world. and this comes out of a long Western. European tradition of thinking that. we're exceptional that we're the only. creatures made in the image of God the. only ones with souls and all that what. we're discovering of course is that.

ancient people understood that humans. were part of the mix Charles Darwin gave. us scientific evidence that this was. true and the more we study other. creatures the more we realize that all. these animals that we've set aside as. just things that we regard as. Expendable as useful as. Commodities. domesticated possibilities. they actually have many of the same.

capabilities we do so I mean it makes. sense if you think about Ravens if it. makes sense if you think about their. ability to use tools and their ability. to displace water they're obviously. thinking and so if they can make noises. of course they would associate those. noises with different things did you see. any patterns when he would like when you. put the food down did he make specific. sounds when you put the food down well. what he began to do that probably caught. my eye more than anything um when he.

would first come down he would take the. food and fly off immediately especially. when I was closing the distance between. us when I was getting to the point where. I was only 3 or four feet away from. where I would put down a a mouse or a. rat or four or five Kibbles of dog food. he would come down and grab the food and. and once he would say go through all six. Kibbles that ID put down he would. immediately fly off but then at some. point. when this raven fairly clearly it seemed.

to me as I observed him came to some. kind of conscious conclusion that I was. not a threat and that the sounds that I. was making my my human voice and the. inflections that I was making were. something that were not dangerous to him. then he started hanging around so he. would eat the food eat the Kibbles or or. eat the mouse and instead of flying away.

he would waddle around on the ground. four or 5T away from me wow or hop up on. a limb and this is when we were having. these conversations I was referring to a. minute ago where he would actually. respond to my voice as I talked and as I. said the Raven is probably better at. understanding what I'm saying than I am. at understanding uh what the Raven is. trying to convey to me but he very. clearly is.

expressing what I sort of Inuit it as a. kind of a comfort and I mean maybe even. you know a thank you thanks for you know. friendship yeah thanks for the. Friendship thanks for all the fish. thanks for the food uh he's. actually. somehow come to realize that I'm. completely trustworthy and so he can. hang out and it's not too long after he.

began to do that that he started. accompanying me on walks as I would walk. around the place and go for hikes and. now doing it with this 16 week old puppy. that I have the Raven comes along I mean. he spots us going out the back door into. the canyon and flies along from tree to. tree and just kind of hangs out with us. I mean it's it's a really Remar I've not. ever had another animal do anything like. this but probably means that I've not. had an animal quite as smart as a mature.

Raven to deal with do you miss him when. you go on the road well I'm talking. about him. obviously I would imagine I would miss. that oh yeah I would imagine I would. want to go back in the woods and bring. them some dog food and hang out with. them no man no kid that's so cool yeah. that is so cool I've taken to putting a. few Kibbles in my pocket you know so. that when kishka the the new young puppy. goes to sleep because of course as long. as the puppy is awake you know he's. watching The Raven too right I mean this.

is an kind of an ancient relationship. between ravens and wolves and I think I. mean I've hiked enough with my Alaskan. Malamutes in the mountains in the West. uh to notice how Ravens circle around. them in the same kind of approach that. Ravens do with Wolves they'll follow. wolves because they know wolves uh very. possibly signal a free meal so the the. puppy is watching The Raven he's very. aware of the but as soon as he goes to. sleep I'll pull my Kibbles out drop them.

out for the Raven get that's awesome. it's such a cool. relationship it's been very fun I've. never had anything like it before I mean. that's what a great way to test the. intelligence of an animal like that the. fact that it's recognizing that you're a. friend and then communicates with you. like a thank you or at least some sort. of a a gesture of friendship yes and I. don't have to put the food in the same. spot I mean I was starting out by of. course putting everything in the the. exact same spot that I begun but now I. can sort of put it anywhere and he's.

watching it he comes and and gets his. meal that's pretty cool how long the. Ravens live they live till about 12 13. 14 years old and I have no idea how old. this raven is um you know there's no way. of telling I mean and Ravens kind of. tend to all look alike but this. particular bird. conveys his um he conveys his presence. his individual Presence by as I. mentioned lighting in exactly the same. spot every time so when he sees me come.

out of the house in the morning he goes. to a particular spot and lands and I. mean there are a lot of other Ravens in. the in the neighborhood but I can always. tell that it's this particular one. because he goes and hits a signal to me. it's me he goes to a particular spot to. land and wait uh to see what uh I've got. for him on a particular day that's. awesome what a great story that's so. cool so you live in an area that. probably has a lot of.

wildlife I do live in an area that has a. lot of Wildlife and I you know much of. my life I have man I lived 22 years in. Montana uh out in the foothills of a. mountain range outside Missoula I was. teaching at the University of Montana. and uh certainly had uh I mean I lived. with all the the grand animals that. still remain from the historic period in. the west uh in that spot I mean we had I. was there when we reintroduced uced. wolves uh to Montana and Idaho in 1995.

and within about 3 or 4 years there was. a wolf pack on the slopes right above. the house and um they began having. litters so we began having having wolves. there grizzly bears um would appear. sporadically uh they were their main. range was just to the north of where I. was but they were steadily attempting to. repopulate the bittery Valley and so. about every two years there would be a.

grizzly in the area had black bears uh. fairly commonly uh Lions of course uh. never saw a lion but I saw Prince and. tons of elk and and deer and all that. sort of thing and in New Mexico not so. many where I live uh I don't live in the. foothills of a mountain range I live out. in the pinion Juniper country about 10. miles from the southern Rockies and in. that zone. you have a few mu deer there are.

pronghorn antelope in the open prairies. not too far away uh but the primary. animals that I see all the time which is. why you know back seven or eight years. ago I wrote a book about them or one of. the reasons was it's coyotes I mean I. mean I'm sort of constantly living with. coyotes elk have such a distinct. language in the way they talk to each. other that there's elk calling. championships I'm sure you're aware of. these oh yeah uh you know Jason Phelps. who's a a guy that uh is well known in.

the elk hunting world has developed. these amazing elk calls to mimic him and. he he knows how to like get them upset. he knows how to challenge them like it's. really interesting when you see a master. caller at work cuz the elk hunting that. I've done most of it has been Ambush. like sneak up on them and the I I like. that I like this you know stalking and. you know and trying to uh trying to get. close and playing the wind but there's a.

lot of guys that they're so good at. getting the elk pissed off that the elk. would against their better judgment will. come what the [ __ ] is going on over. there and whack and they get hit yeah. well they they're issuing a challenge. you know and and at the time when elk. are bugling I mean what they're bugling. for are cows yeah and so yeah it's a if. they sense there's a challenge from. another bull then they're coming to to. VI for access to the females and that's. how they get lured in they also learn.

too so when there's heavy pressure areas. they learn that a lot of these calls are. [ __ ] and so they learn to shut up. and so in a heavily pressured elk area. sometimes there's elk around you and you. don't even know where they are because. you don't hear anything one of the best. ways to locate elk in the morning you. you listen and you hear. bugles well I I have not hunted elk uh. and I mean I you know I grew up in. Louisiana uh rural kid growing up in uh. in the South um and uh went to high.

school in fact I went to high school. with the Duck Dynasty guys I I played. football with the Duck Dynasty guys. that's awesome yeah the the older guy uh. Phil uh was the quarterback of the high. school football team and there was one. guy in between us a guy named Johnny. prudom was the next quarterback after. Phil but I succeeded Johnny prudom as. the quarterback of the high school team. so and I even wore Phil's number number.

10 in high school wow and I played the. the younger uh Robertson Sai uh he and I. played when I was a freshman and he was. sophomore we played in the backfield uh. or I was a sophomore he was Junior we. played in the backfield football team so. I went to high school with those kind of. guys and grew up in that kind of world. and you know and hunted and fished and I. mean but our paths I guess kind of. separate ated uh at one point they. stayed in Louisiana uh Sai went off to.

Vietnam and returned and and uh what I. did was I went off to college uh and. other places and ended up you know. getting a PhD and getting University. jobs and going to live in places like. Montana so our world's kind of diverged. do you still keep in touch with those. guys no I don't haven't kept in touch. with them uh and I don't know if they're. you know I'm certainly aware of them cuz. I've watched their their show some but. uh I don't know if they are aware of.

anything that I've done I haven't tried. to get in touch with them or anything I. loved the success of that show because I. knew that there was people because you. know I did stand up comedy for you know. 30 years so I was always on the road I. was always traveling to the South I was. traveling to the north we TR I traveled. all over the country telling jokes and. you get a way better sense of what the. country is actually like than if you. only live in these cultural Elite cities.

like Los Angeles and in Los Angeles the. idea that a show about a bunch of. [ __ ] duck Hunters who have a Dynasty. on from Duck Calls how is that going to. be popular and then it was huge it was. huge it was gigantic and people loved it. people in these what they would call the. flyover states the disrespectfully most. of the country they would call the. flyover states that's why I love a show. like that that succeeds because those. people had no idea they were like what. the hell is going on like what is you.

know I I want to watch all the stuff. that I want to watch How is how do these. people even like this where what world. do they live. in well I will say that uh those guys. Phil and Sai both they were uh not only. really accomplished duck hunters and I I. never duck hunting with them but I did. go dove hunting with them one time um. and of course they didn't you know it. was on private property for which they. had no permission and halfway through.

the dove hunt we had maybe shot 10 or 15. rounds and here comes the landowner in a. pickup truck driving about 60 miles an. hour across rded Fields after us and so. my memory of going hunting with the. Robertson boys is running through the. Red River Valley trying to get away from. an IRA. landowner um but those guys were funny. they were really funny as hell uh back. in those days and it kind of didn't. surprise me when they were able to.

translate that into that show because I. mean we all thought that they were and. they told so many stories I mean the. south of course has storytelling part of. the uh part of the United States and. those guys told so many stories that we. used to just number them and whenever. they would start on a story we would. just say okay it's number 112 guys and. so everybody would start laughing. because we all knew what 112 was. that's hilarious yeah didn't even have. to listen to the story it's number.

112 oh my God that's hilarious well. maybe we can reunite you guys now maybe. this podcast will reunite you guys yeah. maybe so uh it might so this book this. new book that youve written uh wild New. World the Epic story of animals and. people in America um when did you when. did you start this well it's kind of my. pandemic vacation book I mean that's why. I asked a lot of people Joey Diaz wrote.

this during the pandemic as well yeah. yeah I wrote it during the pandemic I. mean I'll say you. know coyote America and uh American. serengetti. kind of set me up to be able to to take. a step back farther back to look at the. bigger story of animals in America I. mean I'd Focus very specifically on. coyotes uh in the one book and wrote. about the animals all these Grand.

animals of the Great Plains this part of. North America that once up until about. 120 years ago was our version of the. serengetti and somehow while uh East. Africa and southern Africa managed to. get these great game Parks preserving. their large charismatic animals here in. the United States we ended up. privatizing all the Great Planes turning. it into farms and ranches and losing our. ability to do that at least until the. present day where where we're trying to.

uh to accomplish something like. returning the American sering gating but. those two books kind of set me up. for for stepping back and looking at a. at the really big picture of this and so. I was inspired I'll admit by U yal. Harari. sapiens you know his big history of. humans across time so what I what I was. comp hell to do with wild new world was. to to write a book that was a big.

history of North America and the. relationship that people and animals. have had in North America starting from. I mean the book actually starts with the. aftermath of the chick salbe impact. that's the asteroid that that took out. the dinosaurs and ushered in the age of. mammals the reason I started there is. because that's the moment at which North.

America starts acquiring its Beary it's. its creatures in the aftermath of the. dinosaur age both through Continental. evolution in North America and through. acquiring animals from other parts of. the world as they cross the land bridges. and enter North America in that those. millions of years after the chick saloo. impact chick. by the way is the name of the little. Mayan Village on the North Coast of the.

Yucatan near where that asteroid hit 66. million years ago but in the aftermath. of it that's how we acquire our. creatures that's how we. acquire mammoths and macadons and. saber-tooth cats and buffalo and. pronghorns and camels and horses I mean. it happens. through Continental Evolution as I said. and also through this migration from.

other parts of the world but what I I. try to create with that and try to set. up with that is this beastiary of. creatures that when humans finally get. here and I mean after all North and. South America are the last places on. Earth humans find except for a few. islands in the Pacific that we get to. later um the last grand continents on. earth that humans get to are North and. South America by which time we have. had well if you date us back even to.

neanderthals which goes back about. 800,000 to a million years and you. assume that we and Neanderthals are. obviously close enough to one another. that we can hybridize I mean I don't. have you done 23 and me I got a lot of. it yeah so do I you know and my wife has. even more and I think all of us that are. from particularly sort of Northwestern. European backgrounds have ended up with. a lot of Neanderthal uh you know for.

some people as much as 2 and a half% of. their. jeans yeah so and it produces you know. it it makes you different than you would. be otherwise I supposedly according 23. and me I have less uh hair on my back. than I would if I didn't have. Neanderthal I'm a little taller because. of Neanderthal jees W all kinds of. things like that. so so if you date the human story even.

back and I started I start our story as. wild animals in Africa and I bring us in. one of the early chapters in the first. chapter really up to the point where. we're leaving Africa going into Europe. going into Asia and of course that. process again if you start with the. anderol it goes back 800,000 years Out. of Africa and the rest of the world but. the Neanderthals never get to uh to the.

Americas but when modern humans we. emerged about 315,000 years ago in. Africa and when we spread out of Africa. and replace neanderthals in Europe and. denans in Asia and finally get to. Siberia about 45,000 years ago as soon. as there's a possibility for getting. farther east in other words into North. America we take advantage of it and I.

mean as I argue in this book The reason. we do this this is kind of one of the. reasons why all of us love to find spots. where it's a beautiful morning I'm out. here on this mountain I don't there's. not another soul in sight it's just me. and the world that compulsion I think is. really ancient and it's what Drew us out. of Africa because to other parts of the. world to start with and what we're. looking.

for are animals that have never. encountered us before ah because they're. naive about humans as Predators so this. compulsion to. travel finally to get to the Great Plum. of the Americas as the last great spot. we get to on. Earth drives us to the point where I. don't know if you uh caught the news out.

of White Sands National Park about three. or four years ago about the. footprints that were discovered there. 23,000 years old I mean that's at the. height of the glacial maximum man that's. when the ice is at its greatest extent. and somehow people have gotten out of. Asia we think probably along the. coastlines. into what is now the United States and. the place that always seemed to draw.

them is the country south of the Rocky. Mountains and what is New Mexico and. Arizona and these people managed to get. 23,000 years ago into what is now New. Mexico and left 79 footprints that have. been carbon dated based on seeds that. their feet crushed as they walked along. the marshy shore of this lake so we know. that people probably coming down the. coastlines maybe in some kind of craft.

managed to get here as long ago as. 23,000 years wow but what really of. course propels the great human migration. uh into America is when the ice sheets. finally open at about 16,000 years ago. as the glacial maximum begins to recede. there's an ice free quarter that opens. from Alaska down into Alberta and. Montana and at that point you get this. this massive migration probably not. massive to start with maybe not very. many people at all but they.

encounter a wild new world a world that. is populated by some creatures they. recognize many ground sloths and so. forth humans have never seen before and. so we enter this American Paradise of. animals uh some 16,000 years ago in in. large numbers of of humans and spread. within about three centuries all the way.

to the tip of South America it's kind of. one of the great colonization stories in. uh in world history that's amazing now. at this point in time what weapons do we. think that they were using to hunt with. were they using adeladel were they using. Spears were they using well a. combination of these things they were. definitely using so the first successful. group that sort of spreads Coast to. Coast I mean our first American culture. that spreads from the Pacific to the.

Atlantic as a as a consistent culture of. people uh and I titled this particular. chapter in the book clovissia of the. beautiful because they establish a world. that lasts longer than the United States. has lasted so far they America the. Beautiful uh clovissia the beautiful. last well over 300 years and they're. probably used using Spears but they have. come up with a great uh uh new.

technology which is the fluted point. they figured out a way and fluted points. aren't found in earlier times even in. Siberia so this was a purely American. invention they figured out a way to take. Flint points and flute the base on. either side so that you can solidly uh. and very securely attach a spear to them. and they'll remain in place without. flipping off or breaking off so the. fluted point is one of their their great.

uh technological inventions but the. other thing that they bring to the game. Joe. is they come out of a tradition of at. least. 40,000 generations of hunting big. animals I mean they know how to do this. at literally a professional level they. are are extremely good at it I mean one. of the stories I tell in in this early.

chapter clovissia the beautiful which is. the second chapter of the book is of an. episode that takes place in Southern. Arizona what's now Southern Arizona. about 13,000 years ago when a group of. Clovis Hunters. surround um a herd of. mammoths and in this herd is a bull a. herd bull a herd cat. and 13 calves in. adolescence there are three.

archaeological sites associated with. this particular episode in one site the. most westerly all 13 calves in. adolescence archaeologist found dead in. one spot each with a single Clovis point. in its body. wow east of there in two different. locations the herd bull was found he had. run about 3 or 4 miles he had two Clovis.

points in him and he finally bled out. and died but they found the cow about. eight miles away she had eight Clovis. points in her before she died indicating. to the archaeologists who've studied. these sites that the cow in classic. elephant fashion had fought to defend. those Cales and those adolescent she had. had put up a huge fight to try to defend. them and ultimately she hadn't been.

successful they had all been killed she. runs away and finally dies with eight. clo points Center wow but that's one. episode out of I mean we have no idea. how many there are something like 78. Clovis sites uh around North America um. I mean we don't actually know when the. transition to get to your question. happen to add adles but when the Clovis. period is over it's basically when the.

mammoths are done I mean these people. seem to have been fairly specialized as. as big game Hunters I mean they killed. other animals but they really went after. Mammoth a lot but they were succeeded by. a group known as the folsome people and. the fome people used ad adles I mean I. open the book with the discovery of the. the first folsome site it's in fome New. Mexico me discovered uh in the year 1908. can we pause this for a second cuz I.

have to pee and this is too fascinating. for me to hold this in 1908 fome people. yeah we'll come back we'll be right back. okay and we're back so 1908 they. discover fome sites yeah the first fome. sight and I mean so you know and I don't. want to spend too much time on this. because this is all the basically just. the first couple of chapters of the of. wild New World the rest of it is about. subsequent history down to the present. but but the fulsome discovery is really. kind of important in uh the whole.

American history. story because up until this point you. know and this is the kind of thing that. you know the Europeans are really good. at of course they uh they sort of cast. dispersions on America because their. argument was you know America is really. marginal to world history I mean you. guys we've had we know that we had. people uh interacting with Cave Bears. and and you know and we have an ancient. history going back to Greece and Rome. and and you Americans you kind of just.

you know you don't have much going on at. all and so what the fome site. did was to give. America an ancient history a history. that made us a major part of this world. story that I was kind of alluding to. when I was describing people finally. discovering the americ because as the. last grand continents on earth and what. that what happened with the fome story.

is that there was a. u there was a flash flood on a river. called the dry simmeron River in August. of. 1908 and in the aftermath of that flash. flood this African-American. Cowboy uh named Charles MC junan is out. riding fence for one of the local. ranchers seeing what he's going to have. to repair. and as he's riding along his horse. suddenly pitches up and its Hooves slide.

in the mud right to the edge of this. freshly cut about 30 foot chasm in the. slope that he's riding and when he leans. out of his saddle and looks down into. this this cut what he sees are bones of. a gigantic size that he's never seen. before I mean this is a guy who he had. been on the buffalo hunting planes back. in the 1870s so he had seen Buffalo. butchered he knew what bones from big.

animals look like but these were giant. bones and so this guy MC junan started. trying to call attention to the site he. never was able to do so and get any. archaeologist out or paleontologist out. to look at it uh and he dies in 1922 but. about 4 years after his death uh this. museum curator from Denver a guy named. Jesse figgins comes down and brings a. crew down and I what figgins is.

interested in he's sort of an amateur. guy himself he's just interested in some. fancy big bones for his Museum up in. Denver but his crew starts digging into. this site and they began uncovering. these giant bison what they're finding. is a s side of Bison antiquus these. giant bison that became extinct about. 10,000 years ago the ones that the fome. people had particularly specialized in. hunting and as they're Excavating this.

site in the first summer they come. across just sort of lying in the debris. a couple of points like they've never. seen before which are 3 or 4 inches long. and have these thin flutes on either. side at the. base there's one right there there's. yeah there's one right there the fome. point so what figgin as. guys realize is that the hurdle for.

convincing the world the scientific. hurdle for convincing the world that. humans had been present in America at. the time everybody thought Indians had. only been in America for maybe a couple. of thousand years before Europeans got. here but the hurdle was finding an. extinct animal out of the plene. indicating that it had been killed by.

human technology while the animal was. still. alive and the next summer I mean it. happened to be a summer when the. Smithsonian had just published an. article by some fancy archaeologist. saying you know North America has no. Antiquity in its history Indians have. only been here for at most 2,000 years. probably less than that and within about. two months that article coming. out this crew finds the scapula of one.

of these bison they're Excavating with. one of these Clovis points embedded. three4 of the way into the bone and at. that point they stopped digging they. call on all the famous archaeologists in. the United States uh a guy named Alfred. K was the most famous archaeologist in. America at the time and he comes takes a. look and proclaims this. one of the greatest discoveries in. American history so they don't have.

radiocarbon dating yet and nobody knows. how old this is all they know is that. that particular bison species has been. extinct for quite a while figan. says this site is 400,000 years. old but when we finally do get. radiocarbon dating about two decades. later it looks as if a band of fome. hunters using adles using spear thr. Growers had killed 32 bison anquist in.

what had once been a box canyon on the. Southern Plains. 12,450 years ago and so suddenly that. Discovery in the early 20th century in. the 1920s gives America a kind of an. Antiquity that it had never had before. and within a decade we discover the. Clovis site which is out on the Texas. New Mexico border and the Clovis side is. of these elephant Hunters who are.

actually even older than the folsome. people and this pushes when they're. finally radiocarbon dated that site. pushes uh the dates back to the 13,000. year range so what these discoveries in. the 20s and 30s are finally indicating. that contrary to what most Americans of. the 20th century think America is a. brand new place. history dates to the time Europeans got. here in the.

1600s uh you know Indian people have. only been here a couple thousand years. suddenly we realize America is this. really vastly old place and that sets up. the subsequent story that I mean I try. to what I try to do I mean I was an. English major as an undergraduate so I'm. kind of drawn to narrative. storytelling uh telling a lot of stories. and when you write a book with about 66. million years of History you obviously. have a lot of opportunity to tell. stories because there are a lot of.

stories in a span of time like. that what when you say that the Clovis. points and the fulson points with the. the fluted U part of it were so you. could attach a stick to it yeah there. was no people in Europe that figured. this out no this was an American. invention uh there what did they use in. Europe they were just using uh blade. points sometimes with uh with the ears. at the bottom so that ears yeah the ears.

so you have a a triangular point and it. has two ears coming out and you attach. you use the ears as a place to attach. the Raw Hide And so this was metal no. not metal what were they using Flint. they were using Flint as well so so when. they were making these points they were. just doing it in a different way they. were doing it in a different way so. they' figured out the same sort of. Technology kind of attaching a stick but. they had different methods that seemed. to just be human Ingenuity when when did. they figure that out well they certainly.

figured it out by uh what's called the. saluton culture which is a sort of a. contemporary with Clovis they're hunting. big animals um they're hunting mammoths. and rhinos and things like that in. Europe so that's in the. 16,000 177,000 year range yeah so this. this fluted idea is a distinct. North American invention is there any. difference in the quality or the type of.

the stone that was accessible to people. in North America versus Europe well I. mean both places had outcrops of flint. and flint and obsidian were the two two. types of stone you went for. but uh North America had some really. great flant and obsidian. outcrops and one of the things that's. really pretty fascinating about these. Clovis people about clovissia the. beautiful and it's and they were all.

over America by the way there are more. of their points discovered in the. Southeast and in New England than there. are in many places in the west so this. is not just a western phenomenon this. just happens to be where we discovered. them first but they were all over. America but they went for they seem to. be making pilgrimages to four or five. locations that had the absolute best. sharpest hardest Flint in America and.

they would go back to those spots again. and again and again kind of had a in. their minds a mental geography of where. these locations were wow yeah so they. one of the great things about the whole. Clovis period to a little lesser extent. fome is that there are these spectacular. blades that they did and sometimes they. would do blades that were like eight or. nine or 10 Ines long and there are some.

of them caches of some of these Blades. of that size that indicate they were. never used they basically were kind of. ceremonial objects I mean I kind of. argue in the book I mean it's pretty. much speculation because we don't really. know a huge amount about these people. but one of the things I I argue is that. they unlike in Western Europe they. didn't leave us Grand cave art of these. animals that they were.

hunting it's almost as if their tools. were their art and it was their tools. kind of. represented uh this ultimate. technology this Sublime technology that. they would actually create in some form. in blades that they never really used to. hunt just to have as ceremonial objects.

wow so it's a I mean it's a really. fascinating Story I mean we've known. about the Clovis people obviously for a. long time we've been trying to figure. out of course other explanations for. what happened to the animals of the pine. because we lost a lot of them during the. plyos scene and people have propose all. sorts of other theories but one of the. strange things about this I mean I tried. to do a book that's based on all the. latest science I could find and all the.

best uh people who were doing. archaeology and paleontology and genomic. science I mean that's one of the. possibilities these days it's we have. genomic science that's able to tell us. things now that we've never known even. over the last 15 or 20 years and one of. the fascinating things about it is. that it's almost like climate change. we've tried to come up with every other. possible. explanation to let ourselves off the. hook for climate change but it almost.

looks like this is an old attribute of. of human self-interest and human nature. we tend to not want to blame ourselves. for very much at all we tend to look for. other excuses for things and none of the. other suggestions about what might have. happened uh other than humans probably. entered a continent with animals that. were completely naive about us and in.

the time that it took them to smarten up. and confront us we were able to scatter. them enough that what we kind of think. now is that we may have gotten like. populations of mammoths so separated. from one another that they couldn't. exchange their genes and they may have. succumbed to I don't know if you've. probably heard of whated happened to the. mammoths on Wrangle Island there was a. group of mammoths out on an island um in.

the uh the sea off the coast of Alaska. that were caught by Rising Waters in The. Bearing Sea and were isolated and. survived down to about 4,000 years ago. but even though humans never found them. even though the climate changed the. animals were fine until they finally. reached a point where they had a small. enough genetic diversity that as they. interbred with one another over and over. again mistakes began to build into their.

genome to the point where they finally. became unable to reproduce wow and 4,000. years ago without any other effect being. present they died out do we have. biological remains or skeletal remains. of Clovis people and people from that. that time period yeah we do there's. a there's a a actually a clovis burial.

site in Montana of uh of two uh infants. a young child and an infant and they. were buried with. ceremonial Clovis points several inches. long covered in sacred what we think was. sacred red. ochre um and that particular s in. 2014 uh the local native people in. Montana is near Boseman uh and the local.

native people and uh and. archaeologists um went out to the. shields River the nearby Shields River. and after studying uh these these uh. young. skeletons uh they reburied them in the. shields River so they returned them to. the Earth in. 2014 so they reburied them in the same. site where they found them near the same. site yeah they were found yeah they were. found on the banks of the shields. River that's interesting that they chose. to do that cuz I could understand why.

they would think to respect the bodies. in buum but I could also understand like. for science like what an incredible. Discovery yeah well they they did do uh. science on them but uh was there genetic. material was there there was not no. physical tissue no marrow or anything. not that I'm aware you know and I could. be wrong about that but I don't think so. do they have an understanding of where. these people might have come from. originally they seem to have come yeah.

and again because of we do have some uh. some sites uh I mean the clov people. ended up all the way down into South. America and we do have genomic evidence. from some of the sites that had. preserved enough DNA to make educated uh. guesses about this that their origin was. probably the lake B Hall region in. Siberia. uh and that they probably when the ice. sheets open they probably came down in. two different.

migrations uh a kind of a northern. Native American and a southern Native. American migration they're often called. even though both groups ended up with uh. genetic markers as far south as Colombia. and Brazil and places like that but yeah. so we've got enough genetic material. that we are able to do that kind of. thing uh I don't think that burial site. in in Montana yielded any but uh there. were other sites that did when did.

archery make its way to North America. well that was the next great obviously. the next great. Innovation and the reason these. Innovations were important by the way uh. and to answer your question it was about. 2,000 years ago and it seemed to come. from the late arrival of innuit people. the ancestors of you know folks who are. sometimes called Eskimo the Inuit people. seemed to either adapt or bring archery. with them when they got to North America.

and the idea for that then diffused. spread through uh all of North America. within about five or 6 hundred years so. we know that archery absolutely existed. 2,000 years ago in Africa and in some. other plac where when did archery first. when when do they believe archery was. first invented let's find that out. that's interesting yeah so just 2,000. years of tre which is incredible you. know and and what it meant was each one. of these developments particularly ad.

adles and archery and and Bows meant. that you didn't have to do what. neanderthals had done which is engage in. sort of hand-to-hand combat with large. strong and sometimes really resilient. creatures like wild horses m or Mammoth. at close range I mean some of these. Neanderthal sites for example I mean the.

guys were just beaten to hell man I mean. they had their cheeks caved in they had. broken I mean thigh bones broken they. had amputated arms all kinds of really. severe injuries from taking on animals. but neanderthals one of the things we. know from uh nitrogen isotope studies of. their bones is neanderthals were more.

carnivorous than wolves were I mean they. were eating a higher percentage of meat. diet than even grey wolves in Europe wow. so each one of these kind of Innovations. adles of course by extending the human. arm you're able to stand back 30 40. yards from an animal and throw a a dart. and kill it with bows you're able to get. back even further I mean they rescue you. from sort of doing hand toand combat.

with an animal that can easily kill you. or Crush you what were neandertals using. for weapons they were primarily using uh. wooden Spears wow they didn't have Flint. points they were using uh Spears that. with points that had been hardened in. fires wow oldest arrow is here like 7. 72,000 years ago the oldest bow is only. like 8,000 so they didn't find a bow. yeah. wow that's insane 72 to 60,000 years ago.

yeah some of which poisons may have been. used likely arrowheads uh were reported. in 2020 by fahin cave in Sri Lanka dated. to 48,000 years ago wow bow and arrow. hunting in Sri Lankan site likely. focused on monkeys and smaller animals. such as squirrels remains of these. creatures are found the same set as the. bone points oh they used bone points. yeah in 2022 arrowheads were reported.

from the gr how do you say that Mandarin. cave in France dating to around 54,000. years. ago wow yeah so you can get an idea of. and this is important to the whole this. whole story of the isolation of North. America once people get there and the. glacial maximum recedes and the climate. begins to warm enough to break apart the. corridor that links Asia and North.

America then North America is completely. isolated except for South the South. American connection through Panama is. completely isolated from the rest of the. world it's isolated not only from. Innovations like the use of bows and the. old world but and this becomes of course. a major part of the story when Europeans. arrive. with domesticated animals from which. they for eight or nine or 10,000 years.

have been contracting spillover. diseases creating a European population. that of course has now been winnowed by. things like measles and small poox and. plague and all kinds of diseases that. had spread across Eurasia but never got. to isolated North and South America and. so. when Europeans arrive with domesticated. animals and animal.

diseases they confront a an American. population of Native people who have. never been exposed to any of them and. that results in one of the great. possibly the greatest catastrophe in. human history it's the term that people. have been using these days is the great. dying I mean we think by the time. Europeans got here and I don't want to. by the way admit the fact I do a whole. chapter called Ravens and coyotes. America that is about the 10,000 years.

after the. pine because native people are here for. 10,000. years and manag to preserve almost all. the biological diversity at least what's. left after the pine for 10,000 years. there's only one Extinction that I was. able to find during that time a. flightless seed duck became extinct in. that 10,000 year period but I mean they. managed to preserve almost all of North. America's biodiversity across that time.

span and then Europeans arrive with all. these old world diseases and in a blink. of an eye what had at one point been and. to be sure most of this population is in. South America 56 million people in the. two Americas something like 80 to 85% of. that population is taken out in a few. decades by old world diseases.

wow yeah it's it's uh it's as I said it. may be the greatest human catastrophe in. that's the speculation for what happened. to the Mayans and the Aztecs and a lot. of these amazing structures that they're. now finding in the Amazon jungle oh yeah. yeah they were take I mean you know some. of these civilizations like you know in. North America we had the great chako and. civilization. that was our version of the Mayan or. Aztec or.

toltech uh groups uh down in Central. America I mean we had this great. civilization in the American southwest. centered around water are today the. chako and National Park. ruins with a civilization that spread. over probably 50,000 square miles and. included hundreds of small hamlets in a. Central City. choco that was sort of like the Vatican. I mean there were priests who lived. there most of the Year priests who.

through the history of chako inherited. generation after generation their. position uh I mean there's. a fascinating archaeological site at. chako that shows 14 burials in one. room nine of those burials span the. entire history that 300 year history of. choco every one of those nine is related.

to one another through a female line the. mitochondrial. line and each of the nine present from. the start of choco to the end of it from. about 900 to about. 1200 has a genetic abnormality a sixth. toe on one foot wow so these were the. people who were regarded as the the. priests of the place and so a couple of.

times a year usually at the solstices. they would have these big celebrations. and 40,000 people would flock into choco. and observe the solstices and do. ceremonies and you know no doubt engage. in all sorts of Epic nightlife too but. over time over 300 years of time drought. and a local overuse of. resources and also I mean this is kind. of the famous story of.

choco what really sort of happened to. chako is that the priests were promising. all of their followers that they could. make it rain in the desert because this. was an agricultural agriculture had. finally come to North. America and we reached a point when. droughts began to. strike and the priest couldn't make it. rain at which. point all their followers basically. abandoned their religion and the.

archaeologists who have gone in have. sort of pointed out that so it kind of. looks as if a. disparity in lifestyle must have. contributed because the. priests and the Priestly class they were. the ones that were getting to eat all. the protein from the deer and the. antalope as a result they were their. skeletons are three or 4 inches taller. than all the peasants they lived longer.

their children got past the age of five. much more easily and so there is. speculation about chako that the. disparity and. wealth followed by the inability of the. priests to deliver and make it rain is. what caused this civilization to. collapse when the peasant class. basically rose up and overthrew it wow. that's so fascinating because that seems.

like that just happens with humans when. humans get into a position of power they. want to maintain it and tighten up the. grips on everybody else they want rules. for them but not for everyone else they. want to have different different. privileges as we're dealing with this. like literally right now well sure I. mean you know it shouldn't surprise us I. guess should surprise Human Nature has. been the same yeah yeah it's probably. been the same for 3 million years but. it's just so fascinating when you see it. manifesting in this ancient culture and. the people wise up and go You Can't Make.

It Rain yeah and then they and they. eventually get sick of giving these. people all their deer yeah is are there. images of this uh particular site that. Jamie could find we could see what it. looks like yeah if you just punch up uh. chako Canyon historic National Park. you'll find U the major site and I've. got of course photographs of all this in. the book but the major site is called. peblo Bonito b o n t o and so how long. did their civilization Thrive for for.

about 300 years just like us yeah just. like yeah just like us with ay with a. disparity of wealth that yeah that. produced yeah unless you have. authoritarian dictatorship yeah here you. go you can get people to do whatever the. [ __ ] you want you keep things going so. that's PUO Bonito and so you'll notice. this the caption there did women control. the bloodline which speaks to what I was. just telling you a minute ago out of. those burials in this this Central room.

in this. structure they all nine of the 14 buried. there were all related to a single woman. who was at chako at the founding of this. civilization wow now is there an artist. rendering or representation of what it. must have look at that that looks. incredible yeah is the National Park. Service I know has done one on some of. their brochures of what it looked like. originally see if you can find anything.

like that Jamie an artist rendering of. what it looked. like that's it's wild. stuff and so what years was this again. uh basically 900 to to. 1200. wow look at that yeah that's incredible. they built 4 100 miles of roads by the. way and they built their roads Straight.

Arrow across the landscape I mean they. didn't swerve around mesas or butes or. so yeah this would have been what Pueblo. Bonito looked like and as you see ad. 1100 oh like how they have that one tree. yeah wow that's amazing when when they. first settled the area it was covered in. a pinion. Juniper uh. vegetation but almost all those trees.

disappeared over the life of choco. because these people were farming the. classic Mexican cultivar complex corn. beans and squash all of which require. fires to prepare and so when you have a. food dish that requires you to build a. fire to prepare it and you're in a area. with a limited resource of possible of. possible wood over time a civilization. of that size almost completely.

obliterated all the surrounding. vegetation oh. no stone axes yeah sure I mean it's yet. another example of human nature that's. always been in place and you know we. tend to be so self-centered or living in. our own heads that we think all these. things this just applies to us right but. these kind of things living for status. uh you know acting uh in a way that. separates you from uh the lowly peasants.

of the world I mean this is ancient and. we have always figured out ways to do it. ways to distinguish ourselves and and. those kinds of things have often led to. you know serious problems in human. history yeah it's just so fascinating to. see that this has always been the case. and people have always been very. shortsighted in terms of allocation of. resources and preservation of resources. we always have and we have another. Instinct too we tend to whenever things.

start we start growing short of things. we always blame somebody else this is. this is the classic way of bad spirits. yeah enemies yeah enemies some other. group I mean yeah I mean you know in. subsequent European history and so I. will I will say what we've been talking. about it's primarily the first three. chapters of this book and the last seven. chapters. plus the epilogue is all about the. period from the time Europeans arrive up. to the present up to really last year um.

but I mean all these same things play. out in in the story I mean. Europeans unlike native people I mean. and I make an argument for why native. people I think preserve that. biodiversity for so long I mean despite. examples like choco you you still have. virtually all the animals all the birds. all the reptiles that had survived the. plene 10,000 years of human occupation.

later they're all still here when. Europeans get here and I think I mean I. explain it several ways one of which is. the population of North America North of. the real Grand River never rises above 5. million these people understand that. you've got to keep your population in. check or you will use up the world and. so they they consciously do it how do. they consciously do that do we know well. they do it primarily by various.

techniques of holding birth rates down. and they one way of doing it is birth. spacing you nurse children say for till. they're five or six years old and as. long as women are nursing they don't go. through uh another chance to get. pregnant oh so that spaces births out. and the other thing they do is frankly. they engage in abortion I mean they very. actively decide in some instances.

that we we don't have the resources to. support this infant do we know how they. did that well they did it by by various. herbal means and they also sometimes. engage from you know this is pretty. Draconian but they sometimes. engaged uh in uh killing infants after. they were born oh uh infanticide is I. mean it wasn't hugely common and I'll. say this also about infanticide after a.

woman would carry a baby to. term and then have it. killed it. created the impulse that probably helped. lead to the development of. Agriculture I mean agriculture is the. next great economy and Innovation and. the way humans live. and what it enables you to do I mean one. of the things that seems to prompt it is.

that you've you've lowered the possible. animal life around you to the degree. that you can't really keep going as. hunters and gatherers so you have to. come up with something else and in North. America native people do this several. thousand years they go to agriculture. several thousand years later than Europe. does I mean Europe has been continuously. occupied for 55 60,000 years so they. reach a point where the animal. populations have been reduced earlier by.

eight or nine or 10 thousand years ago. and have to go to Agriculture and. domestication in North America we don't. really do it until about four or 5,000. years ago and in what is now the United. States only really about, 1500 2,000. years ago do you have the first evidence. of going to agriculture but people are. anxious just to come up with a new. economy that doesn't require you to be. so Draconian about population.

suppression so they just thought of any. new baby as a threat to the food source. well some new babies not everyone yeah. but some new babies they just had a. number they had a number they they very. clearly I mean they had really short. feedback loops and they understood their. local ecologies really well and one of. the things you knew is that you couldn't. base your population on the best years. you experience experienced you had to. base your population usually on the. worst years because if you went for the. best years whenever the worst ones came.

along you were going to end up really. hit hard starving to death was a real. possibility a real possibility so you're. cautious and you base what you think the. carrying capacity of your resource base. is on the worst years you're going to. face and this is speculation is this U. educated guest like how do we know this. well it's it's Beyond speculation I mean. we know this is a principle of sort of. Hunter gather lifeways around the world. even still among some hunter gatherers.

that exist today they still employ those. kind of they still still employ those. kind of techniques um but they're always. looking for the opportunity to escape. that uh and for people in Europe 10,000. years ago and for people in North. America you know between five and 2,000. years ago the opportunity to escape it. somewhat was agriculture because that. produced if you specialized in a few.

food crops and by the way one of the. differences in in agriculture in the. Neolithic Revolution in the old world. and the Americas is in the old world. obviously much of it depends on. domesticating animals the animals that. are left after the end of the plene in. Europe horses camels goats sheep Hogs. cows wild ORS are almost all. domesticated I mean in some cases in the.

case of wild horses it's probably what. saved them is that they got. domesticated in North America. though there were almost no. domestications wild turkeys were. domesticated some groups domesticated. Ducks but there weren't any any mammals. nobody domesticated bison or big horn. sheep or. pronghorns and one of the things that. does uh when Europeans arrive is that I.

mean Europeans come out of this ancient. 8,000 year old hurting culture they've. been hurting goats and. sheep and they've developed a religious. tradition ultimately the judeo-christian. tradition which is probably based on. earlier things to be sure. that is basically a herder's. religion where what that religion. teaches you is that not only are humans.

exceptional um but it teaches you. that predators are the enemy any animal. that prays on your sheep or your goats. has to be. eliminated meanwhile in North America. where you don't have domestications of. animals predator are regarded as these. prized sacred creatures who keep the. world functioning the way it's supposed.

to function and people look for a. predator as a totem animal in a Vision. Quest or they name their Clan the wolf. Clan or the panther. Clan so it produces a whirl when the two. groups come together here are these. native people. who still have the ancient human idea. that we are part of everything around us.

uh other animals are just like us they. have. societies they can actually intermarry. with us I mean many Native ceremonies. and I described several of them in the. book are about whenever you confront the. idea of animals are becoming scarce you. do ceremonies that are designed to not. only make the animals reappear for you.

but the way you do that is to convince. them that you still regard them as Ken. you're still willing to you're going to. do a ceremony where you go through a. kind of a faux series of marriages. between humans and bison wow and so this. kind of we're all part of a kinship web. I mean it's what Charles dar when. finally provides the scientific evidence. for in you know and On the Origin of. Species in.

1859 we're out of the same evolutionary. stream Europeans have meanwhile old. worlders have come up with a completely. different idea this hurting religion. they have is that posits that well I'll. tell you the story that sort of launched. me writing this book this is a kind of a. good way to to say this I guess my. oldest memory. is from when I was four years old I mean. psychologists say a lot of us our oldest. memory is from the age of four this is.

the only one I really remember from the. age of four and I think the reason I. remember is because it's you know sort. of Laden in emotional content so it's. really engraved in in my system and. here's what happened when I was four. years old I had the first little animal. companion I ever had and it was a little. chicken a little you know few weeks old. chicken still. yellow and uh you know I'm not very. imaginative as a four-year-old so I name. it chicky and so chicky and I my first.

great friend and Buddy uh spend our time. dashing through my parents house in. Louisiana in a game of Chase and I'm. chasing chicky underneath the sewing. machine underneath the couch and. underneath the dining table and and one. day you know as a little clumsy. four-year-old I miss C at and I step on. my little chicken and I kill. it so I'm 4 years old I'm. confronting mortality and loss for the.

first time my mom and I go out in the. backyard and I mean we're both crying. and we bury chicky and as we're standing. there and I've you know shovel dirt over. chicky and sobbing away the whole time. and I turn to my mother and I say so Mom. just sort of one last. mom I get to have chicky again in heaven. don't. I and my mother who is this good.

Southern. Methodist and has absorbed the Western. worldview and its. entirety and who's also kind of known. all her life for giving you the. unpainted version of things anyway even. if you're four years old I guess she. looks down at me and and although she's. crying. and feels compassion for me she says. she's got to tell me the truth why no. honey you're made in the image of God.

and you have an everlasting Soul so when. you die you get to go to heaven chicky. is just an animal chickies don't get to. do anything like that so I'm afraid. chicky is just. dead so it was my instruction in the. European world view of other creatures. are something completely different there. in the judeo-christian.

tradition other animals are made for our. use they're made as Genesis puts. it unto your hand are they. delivered you can basically do anything. you want with. them and with this idea of human as. exceptional and everything else out. there uh as just sort of for utility.

purposes to make the lives of humans. better I mean we arrive in North America. with this idea very different from what. Native people with their kinship Notions. have and also. with burgeoning capitalism the. beginnings of the global market economy. and with. so many Native people dying North. America is undergoing this huge. ecological release of wildlife it's the.

origin of our Virgin America stories. where North America is just teeming with. everything under the. sun and we look on animals then as just. being like gold trees grass whatever we. want to exploit we turn them into. Commodities and it's sort of the. explanation for the global the North. American Fur trade beavers as uh an. object of pursuit white tail deer as an.

object of pursuit for leather we should. tell people that Beaver were so in. Pursuit that at one time the richest man. in the world was a a beaver fer yes the. richest man in the world sold beaver. pelts John Jacob Aster yeah and the. first Great American corporation was a. fur trading Corporation to exploit the. beaver populations of North America how. Wild is that yeah so this is the story. then that starts unfolding and you know.

and it's Amplified by the fact that all. these Europeans who have come over. especially the ones from England and. France. um they've gone through centuries of the. feudal economy where these Lords of the. manor and Kings control access not just. to Landscapes but to animals so I mean. it's the origin of the Robin Hood story. Robin Hood is a deer poacher yeah who.

represents the peasant population that. the king's forest and the Sheriff of. Nottingham as the game warden won't let. him at so suddenly this population of. people who has who have been resentful. about the fact that they can't hunt that. they can't enjoy the Bounty of the. forests in Europe arrive in North. America and even though the native. people try to convince Europeans the. deer are like our cattle you have to.

understand they belong to us Europeans. of course don't acknowledge that and. suddenly here are all these animals all. this Wildlife I mean in super abundance. and nobody is telling you that you can't. go after it and then there's Market. hunting and then there's and so yeah and. so a lot of them I mean this is how. Rural and Lower Class People basically. rise to the middle class as you exploit. animal populations and sell them and. that gets you into the currency economy.

it's so uh fortunate that they figured. this out somewhere early in the 20th. century and started instituting wildlife. conservation and you know reintroducing. animals and and things along those lines. it's just well I yeah and I of course I. track the story all the way through and. I won't you know elaborate on uh on how. it goes I will say that you know there.

have been uh a couple of uh reviews on. like Goodreads and and Amazon of this. book where people say well this this is. an anti hunting book I mean which is. kind of you know it caused me a certain. amount of shagrin because of how I grew. up I mean I grew up hunting I mean I. stopped hunting in my 20s but when I was. in Montana at least three times in the. last uh decade I was there I would buy a. deer license and shoot a mule deer out. in the pasture in order to stock my.

freezer with venison and in some ways I. mean I look at this book as this is. probably the most comprehensive story of. the human relationship with animals. which obviously involves hunting that. anybody is told at least about North. America you can't read. reviews you're cuz there's always going. to be someone that has a ridiculous take. on things then you have to argue that. ridiculous take because it doesn't make. any sense to you and then you're wasting. time on some Fool's ideas yeah you're. wasting time and you know what a lot of. people do is uh if if they already think.

what you're saying I mean you get five. star reviews if you say something that. is not part of their the package that. they bring to the game right yeah of. course yeah of course yeah that um the. anti-hunting notion is an interesting. one I mean it's just reality the reality. of North America to say that that's. anti-hunting that's ridiculous that's. just reality it's just the market. hunting thing is well documented I mean. particularly in regards to the Buffalo. when you see bison skulls stacked on top.

of each other anybody that doesn't think. that that looks absolutely hideous and. horrific like how did they get so far. gone that they thought that was okay. yeah I mean and at the same time that. was happening I mean we were taking out. I mean this is one of the ones that. stuns me passenger pigeons the most. numerous bird not just in North America. but in the world we think there may have. been 10 billion of them at one point had. been in North America for 15 million. years those birds couldn't survive 400.

years of our presence it's amazing once. we arrive they can't last I mean they. actually they only last about 300 years. after we ared how did they kill so many. of them before they had. Firearms with passenger pigeons I mean. it was very much like the industrial. hunt for bison I mean you had to use. Firearms obviously for that but for. passenger pigeons the the commercial. hunt the market hunt was basically done. with Nets you spread Nets across the.

forest and they were springloaded and. were. released and what they would do is they. used live passenger pigeon. decoys that were placed on the end of a. pedestal that rocked back and forth they. were called. stools and so the passenger pigeon decoy. was referred to as. AIG. wow and that's where that comes from.

that's where it comes from what did that. look like can you see if you can find an. image of what that looked like so you. know we we get stol pigeon from you know. the gangster movies about the 1920s. 1930s and what they're referring to is. stol Pigeon is basically a traitor the. St pigeon rats you. out wow. and so this was all Market hunting as. well the the pasture pigeon yeah it was. Market I mean people don't think of.

pigeons as being a food source but that. is uh really what they were yeah so this. this pigeon is secured in place somehow. yeah its feet are attached to the stool. wow and yeah and the live ones the live. birds that you did this with when you. rocked the stool back and forth it would. flap its wings if it's as if it were. landing and that would then bring down. wow they would springload the Nets and. capture them all yeah and they wiped out.

the entire population that way that's. incredible and one one of the reasons. they wiped the population out was. because I mean in the last in the last. hunts which were taking place in the. Upper Midwest in Wisconsin uh in. particular um I mean they went after. them while they were on their nests. so why were they. surprised I mean the whole idea is as.

when the Last Passenger Pigeon died for. example in 1914 you know famous story it. dies in the Cincinnati Zoo Martha it's. called after Martha Washington Martha. dies in 1914 okay so that's the. beginning of World War I the Great War. to be sure lots of newspapers were. focused on other things but I could. hardly find any newspapers in America. that wrote an. obituary about the Last Passenger Pigeon. what had been the most numerous bird the. most charismatic bird and the emblem.

bird our symbol of Aven America I could. find one newspaper that wrote an. obituary wow and that newspaper. said you know we guess we should feel. bad about the loss of the pastor pigeons. but on the other. hand maybe it's a good thing that. they're not going to be like. Grasshoppers and stick around with. us so that was kind of.

extent anyway I people are goofy I use a. lot of this to essentially argue that. you know I mean I do this this theme of. first Contact a lot and I mentioned the. first Contact between humans and animals. that they had never seen talk about. first Contact in the book between. Europeans and Native people and the. whole idea of first Contact theory is. that the only way you can really relate. to something brand new that you've never. seen is through what's already in your. head you already have some Notions and.

that's how you understand the new and. then after you've had some some. familiarity with it you can develop new. Notions but one of the themes I do in. the book is essentially Continental. first Contact and what I'm arguing with. it is that what we bring out of the old. world to America is the the conviction. that we're going to recreate North. America the United States in the image. or as clones of England France Germany.

because that's all we know that's all we. know and these are places of course that. in the previous several hundred years. before colonization in North America had. wiped out all their big animals I mean. all you've got left in England hasn't. had any wolves since the 1400s they got. partridges and so people come to North. America and immediately the idea is. whatever is really. wild we really need to get rid of it.

passenger pigeons bison krisly Bears. wolves those are not the earmarks of a. civilized society England doesn't have. those kinds of things and so I mean it. kind of takes the heroes of of this book. I think are probably the e ologists of. the 20th century who began to realize so. North America is really old it's had all.

these animals for a really long. time and all these ideas out of Europe. actually they're not based on science. they're based on just old folk. Traditions out of this hurting kind of. culture so we've got a chance to do. something new here and we've created. this vast public land system. in North America so we actually are able. to get to have all these big charismatic. animals if we just wake up in time I.

mean it's Aldo leopole really who sort. of is the advocate for this more than. anybody else by the middle of the 20th. century he's arguing that we need to do. an American thing not just try to make. the United States into some version of. England because as Henry David Theo. famously said back in the middle of the. 19th century he was reading the accounts. of the first Europeans to get to. Massachusetts seeing all these creatures.

in huge. abundance 200 years later. 1857 he's sitting there in his study and. realizing I don't get to see any of this. really and he writes this incredible. passage in his journal in March of. 1857 where he says I realize it's like. going to a symphony. and Midway through the first. movement I it suddenly occurs to me wow.

there are no. strings there are no wow there are no. Woodwinds there's no percussion that's. all gone and then he goes further and he. says it's like looking up at the stars. at night and realizing that some demig. God has come before you and plucked all. the best of the constellations out of. the the sky and you're not getting to. see the full night sky and he says you. know I. realize somebody has come along and.

emasculated America before I could live. in it quickly and then he has this great. line and I use it as the title of one of. the chapters in here I wish to know an. entire heaven and an entire Earth he. says I want to know the full thing I. don't want to think that somebody has. come before me and selfishly robbed me. of all these.

experiences it's just so bizarre that. human beings repeat these same patterns. over and over and over again and with. the invention of firearms they were able. to do it so effectively and with the. those traps they use for the stool. pigeons use it so effectively yeah that. they could completely changed the. landscape in a relatively short amount. of time in a short amount of time you. know and I mean it it takes until so. this year 2023 is the 50th anniversary.

of The Endangered Species Act of. 1973 I mean this was kind of the Hail. Mary now to be sure back at the. beginning of the 20th century when Teddy. roselt as president I mean we come up. with the the game laws for most of the. states which are all aimed of course at. what we're trying to preserve are the. things that people want to hunt and we. have the idea that we're going to get. rid of all the Predators and we're going. to substitute human sport hunters for.

predation this is how we're going to. because one of the things they're. confronting in the early 20th century is. what's called uh as they remove. Predators from various regions they the. ulet populations deer and elk and moose. start going through eruptions they start. their population starts just booming and. then they'll eat all the forage and die. Elder leopole studied this and said. before 1900 he could find mentions of.

only two eruptions like this that had. happened in America after 1900 and we. started the Predator War he found 42 of. them so the idea was we're going to use. human. Hunters as the substitute for the. Predators that we're taking. out and of course that enabled us to. preserve a lot of a lot of animals that. people want to hunt elk and deer and and. prong horns and so forth even though.

we've gotten prong horns from 35 million. down to 5,000 by this point they're the. most ancient of the North American. animals right yeah and they're. distinctively North American too yeah. it's so weird such a strange animal. strange when you see them in comparison. to everything else are they an actual. Antelope what are they well they're. they're an. Antelope goat oh Antelope Capra is the. the family name uh which had to be. created for them and actually it looks.

like maybe their closest relatives are. giraffes whoa they kind of look like. giraffes yeah they their legs in. particular are their eyes too yeah and. the great big eyes that are man on the. sides of the head yeah look at that guy. yeah what a cool animal that is yeah and. they you know one of the great things. about them too is that uh okay so they. can run the females in particular can. run 60 65 miles an hour which puzzled. biologists for a while. because the only Predators they have.

possibly are wolves and coyotes neither. of which can run over about 42 or 43. miles an hour so the question for a. while was so why the speed. Overkill until we began to realize these. guys developed their ability to run back. during the pla scene when they were. being pursued by by American. cheetahs and they still the females. still select for the fastest males to.

breed with in order to preserve this. highp speeed so the result is pronghorns. only have predators when they're. fonts they don't have predators as. adults because nothing that's alive now. can catch them at one time a cheetah. could catch them but nothing can catch. them now now and since they are prayed. on only as fawns the one of the. adaptations that that prong horns have. made to predation is they have tons you.

have two Fons a spare and an air with. the idea that the spare is likely to be. taken out as a fawn but at least you're. going to preserve your your genetic line. with is it mostly coyotes what gets them. primarily coyotes yeah coyotes are able. to find them I mean we don't have enough. wolves out on the Prairie country. anymore to to have any impact on. pronghorns but but coyotes certainly. look for the fonds yeah there's some in.

California still and they used to have a. larger population up until like I think. 20 or 30 years ago yeah and then the. coyotes started taking them out with. such regularity that they're reduced to. just a very small number now yeah they. there's another spot or two where. coyotes have had an impact on them but I. mean this adaptation of two fawns is. evidently very old and obviously it's. allowed them to survive one of the more. fascinating things that I learned from. you also is the subject of bison and the.

enormous populations of Bison that were. witnessed at one point in history and. that it coincided with the European. spreaded. diseases yeah and the spread of Bison. out of the Great. Plains yeah the Bison story and you know. I obviously I I tell it in several. places sort of the Advent of the Bison. story early in well new worldl and then. the the sort of uh you know the day num. ma uh in a later chapter but the modern.

bison is actually a uh a dwarfed. animal uh compared to the Bison of the. pine that succeeded those earlier larger. forms about 8,000 years ago uh and very. likely became. dwarfed because of anthropogenic. selection human human hunting pressure.

because only wolves and humans really. are effective predators of. bison and what you get by becoming. smaller is a. quicker uh emergence as uh fertile so. bison that are smaller can have calves. at an earlier age uh when the cows are. two years old or three years old they.

can begin having. calves uh the gestation period is not as. long for smaller animals and so you're. able to in other words these are uh. advantages for. reproduction and this new bison 8,000. years ago essentially inherits the. grazing Niche on the American Great. Plains that uh had formerly been. occupied by all kinds of creatures that. are now gone you know including things. like mammoths that are grazers just like. modern African elephants are uh and.

so as a result of inheriting a grazing. Niche now depopulated with no horses to. compete with with no mammoths to compete. with they they become this huge mass uh. I mean this is why bison multiply in to. the Millions on the Great Planes and in. fact they probably become so numerous. like passenger pigeons this is one of. the arguments for why passenger pigeons. survive so long they're so numerous that.

they saturate the Predator possibilities. Predators just can't take enough of them. to ever actually reduce their. numbers and so what. happens I mean native people hunt bison. for modern bison for 8,000 years that's. the longest economic LifeWay in North. American. history but just about the time that. Europeans are arriving and very.

likely uh contributed to by the arrival. of Europeans in the disease epidemics. that wipe out so many Native people. bison populations began to expand out of. the Great Plains west of the Rocky. Mountains I mean they get all the way to. places like Oregon uh Arizona and east. of the great PL ples when they get to. places like Georgia and Florida and. Virginia and West Virginia and possibly.

even Western. Pennsylvania and the the argument about. this. is when Europeans arrive and out of a. hemispheric. population uh or I should rephrase that. out of North America and South America. having a native population as high as. maybe 56 57 million people most of which. indeed are from Mexico South into South. America where agriculture is.

Prevail so many people like that taken. out which. is more than 10% of the global. population when the Great dying happens. people who have been cutting down. forests and building fires and using. fires as their primary method of heating. and cooking and everything else when. that ends the recent idea Advanced. is that that enables.

a reduction of carbon in the atmosphere. formerly put into the atmosphere by all. these burning fires of all these. millions of. people and when that happens it produces. an effect called the little ice Ag and. the little Ice Age which lasts for about. 300 years from about about. 1450 1550 or so somewhere in that range. around, 1500 to 1,800 or maybe 1830 or.

so produces cooler moisture weather in. the Northern Hemisphere and that grows. more grass and that expands the Bison. population over a lot of North America. so when Europeans get here you know as a. consequence of all these factors nobody. really understands I mean nobody knows. anything about disease transmission. nobody suspects that your breath can. kill people I mean there's an early.

European who I quote in the book who. says boy we just experienced the. strangest thing we went. ashore uh for a couple of weeks and when. we came back on board our ship word came. that every village every Indian village. that we went to within 2 three days of. us being there almost all the people in. the village fell sick and they're. dying and it seems to have happened only. where we went nowhere else is reporting. this but I mean so it happens like that.

I mean just almost. instantaneously they don't understand. why it's happening the European idea is. well God has he's killing them to enable. us to settle the place and they. certainly don't understand the what's. causing you know the little ice age but. what they're reaping the benefit of is. this explosion of animals that even. brings Buffalo all the way almost to the. east coast wow yeah it's it's another.

one of these amazing stories that I mean. we've only been figuring this kind of. stuff out you know for the last 20 or 30. years uh some of it even more recently. than that it's got to be so rewarding as. a person who studies that though that. this information is being discovered in. New Revelations and new understanding. yeah it's really fun you know I mean I. had a tremendous amount of fun doing. this book you know I mean I. was there were parts of it that. certainly surprised me you know I mean I.

I kind of knew this story I mean what I. was trying to do was to tell in one book. this whole North American story of. humans and people in under 400 pages I. mean I managed to do it 398 Pages it's a. thicky yeah it's 398 so it's got a lot. of information in it but um. uh I mean it is an audio version too so. one can just did you do it no I didn't. do it the yeah the Press I was with uh. ww Norton uh retained the rights to the.

audio book I mean with coyote America my. agency my literary agency retained the. rights and I got to select who read it. yeah for the audio book but in this case. uh Norton retained the rights and I had. no say you would be so good at it yeah. well I've offered myself a couple times. nobody's ever taken me up on it why are. they so dumb about that kind of stuff. they did that with ranella as well with. h his book The American B I know and. Steven would be a fantastic reader well.

he did read it he eventually gained the. rights to and he went and read it and. it's amazing yeah well maybe maybe at. some point I can get their rights to do. it but I've offered myself more than. once and uh I never had anybody take me. up on it they have their stable of. people they want to use you know I but. they they're silly like especially a guy. like you who's been on this podcast a. couple of times you have such a great. voice and such a passion for this stuff. that's so so tangible when you talk. about it well I'd love to be able to do.

it but well hopefully the guy did a. great job um one of the things that I'd. be a Miss if I didn't talk to you about. is uh I want to get you together with. Randall Carlson because Randall Carlson. is a big proponent of the younger dras. impact Theory being a leading factor in. the extinction of North American animals. yeah what do you think about that have. you looked into it yeah I have and so I. mean here's here's my deal you know I. mean I'm a. historian um as I said an English major.

really and kind of an an environmental. writer a writer about this stuff so I'm. not an archaeologist or a paleontologist. I mean my approach to doing this kind of. stuff doing archaeology and paleontology. is I go to the what I consider to be the. best people and other folks consider the. best people out there you know Ross MC. uh from the American Museum of Natural. history uh Donald Grayson uh certainly. Paul Martin you know who is the he's. kind of the Einstein of all this and.

what I always look for are the people. who are publishing in the peer-review. journals who are uh doing work that like. Paul. Martin's Paul Martin is like Einstein I. mean his work has survived for decades. because nobody has been able to shoot it. down I mean he's that sort of. bulletproof in his arguments so I'm. relying on all of those guys the people. who are spending all their time you know.

using science-based research to study. this and what they when I look at uh. their work Ross MC for example about the. younger dras uh uh period which is uh. for your listeners that's a period at. about 11,500 12,000 years ago when there. was a sudden really cold pulse in North. America that uh that amounted to. essentially kind of a climate change it. didn't last a very long time but it.

certainly was a change from what was. happened what had happened before and. after and there is a a corollary. argument called the fireball. hypothesis. that came from an article that was in. Science magazine in about 2005 or six. that argued that sort of in the. tradition of the chick saloo asteroid. there may have been a comet or possibly.

an asteroid or a meteorite that struck. that set off the younger dras period and. that also uh resulted in uh a kind of a. scorched Earth at least in sort of the. northern climes in Alaska I mean I know. you've had on the John Reeves guy the. Boneyard Alaska. how amazing is his place yeah five. absolutely to go there it's less less. than five acres two acres and then. there's another another site that's uh.

have you been there no I have not but I. I really desperately want to John's a. fascinating guy yeah I mean the fact. that he has complete control over this. is so interesting yeah yeah and I can. tell you some more stuff off the. air uh but he's just mean you know. what's going on in the East River right. now are you aware of this I don't know. there's a bone rush in the East River. cuz talked about in the early 1900s um. the Museum in New York City had so much. property from his or so so many. artifacts so much so many Mammoth tusks.

and so many uh step bison jawbones and. things that they dumped them in the East. River and he I heard this he found the. exact location he told people where it. is and they've already started. discovering things they've discovered a. step bison Jawbone and then they. recently discovered a frag of a mammoth. tusk so there's these guys um dirty. water Dawn and that's uh the piece of. the mammoth tusk they found see if you. can find also the uh bison skull the.

Bison skull was maybe even more. compelling but in the in the area where. this guy told them to look they've. started to find things um he's got so. much on his property it's so incredible. I think it's a little further up Jamie. these look older bison a bison priscus. huh yeah bison Jawbone uhhuh right here. is that it right there no I mean I'm. saying it should should be like right. here it's not um well we can you can. find it if you just Google it um bison J.

what year what were we looking at how. far away is this April when was he here. so this is probably okay these are. pretty recent photos this is we're still. in March I think was when they. discovered it if I remember correctly so. so this is the one you did with John huh. yes this is uh and they look at that. they found cats and things and and Cave. Bears. and that they didn't think were native. to that area they didn't even think they. were in that area so they're making. they're making these significant. discoveries yeah in this piece of. property that he has that you know.

really kind of changes the there it is. right there right below that that's. that's the piece that's the piece where. he's pulling it out of the water oh boy. yeah isn't that amazing and then right. below that you could see the actual. piece itself we can see it's 10 in. really amazing stuff a chunk of a. Jawbone of a step bison that they found. in the East River and there's a lot more. out there apparently and but you know. you got a you're dealing with almost. hundred years of it sitting there but. just the fact that they could still find.

some pieces is really encouraging I mean. that's a 100 Years of silt a moving. River who knows how much pollution and. garbage and but they're they're finding. things which is pretty damn cool well. it's exciting to do it I mean I found at. one point uh when I was living on the. Great Plains uh back in the 1980s I. found a a uh bison skull eroding out of. a stream Bank from you know and I have. no idea how old it was but it was of a. calf it was a fairly small skull but the.

horn cores were there and yeah it was. very exciting to find something like. that one of the things that John has. found one of the things that's very. extraordinary is it seemed like these. animals all died together and there's a. very distinct uh layer of scorched Earth. that coincides remember seeing that yeah. I remember seeing that in the younger Dr. Theory what what's fascinating about it. it's it's not one event it's multiple. events that take place over thousands of. years and there's a lot of physical. evidence of it aridium in particular.

which is common in space and rare on. Earth and also Nano diamonds these these. impact diamonds these micro diamonds. that get created upon impact of these. these uh whether it's comets or. asteroids whatever it is they think that. there was multiple ones of these this. also coincides with the time period in. which you know if you we we apparently. pass through this every I think it's. every June and every November is that. correct this asteroid uh this uh this. shower that we see this meteor shower. and that also coincides with the.

tunguska explosion which they believe is. an asteroid that blew up right above uh. the surface of the Siberian forest and. to this day is like flattened like this. enormous area the photographs are. extraordinary of the PO impact discovery. of the site and you know for a long time. they're trying to figure out when but. this coincides exactly when Earth passes. through this this medeor shower which is. really really interesting stuff and I.

think the two of you together might be. able to like if you have a conversation. it would be very fascinating he's. incredibly impressive this guy and I. know he's heterodox in his sort of ideas. and but brilliantly researched I mean. and has had debates with Scientists over. this even on my podcast they were. talking about this evidence and they put. it together with graham Hancock's work. and Graham Hancock who has uh ancient. apocalypse right ancient apocalypse on.

on uh Netflix which is basically all. about that it's all about the evidence. of the sophisticated cultures that. existed 11,000 12,000 years ago that we. really didn't know were around until. they started discovering gockley tee and. all these things they can carbon date to. that time period where we thought at one. point in time they were just hundred and. gatherers now we know they were they. were capable of very sophisticated ston. work in turkey and there's only to this. day I think less than 10% of them has. been uncovered they use lar and they.

found more of them in the surrounding. Hills but he believes that this. coincides with these meteor impacts and. that there was probably a a huge. disruption of human civilization and a. restart of it and it coincides with the. end of the Ice Age and there's some. really fascinating uh erosion data and. and data of massive amounts of water. that happened very quickly and he. believes what happened was something hit. the actual ice cap that was over North. America this guy's very well researched.

in this it's a really fascinating. conversation I think with the two of you. together and I would love to have it if. you're interested in it uh yeah I mean. I'm I'm certainly intrigued by it I. always like to see people whenever they. have some you know some dramatic new. argument or claim for something that has. other. explanations come up with something like. a scientific article that you submit to. a peer- rreview journal let's see what. you know what the Ross mcfees of the.

world think of it I would like to see. that too but I do think that people do. preserve their initial Notions. especially if they've been teaching that. and writing books on that and they've. proclaimed that to be the. exact history of how things went down I. would like just to see you have a. conversation with this guy because like. again he's very impressive his ability. to describe these things and his recall. of the information is second to none. well I what I would say to the younger. dras so far and the certainly the.

fireball article you know published back. in 2005 or six had some currency for. quite a number of years uh I obviously. when I was working on these initial. chapters or particularly on that. clovissia the Beautiful chapter uh for. wild new world I mean I looked at uh. what scientific literature I could find. in the journals and they weren't really. citing it anymore and I think the reason. was basically this the argument goes as.

a kind of a test for something that. could cause a major Extinction is okay. so the younger dry has produced a cal. pulse to be sure but it's going to be. difficult to argue that these animals. are going to expire in a c pulse when. they survive the glacial maximum that's. not his AR years ago his argument is. massive Devastation his argument is. instant flooding the the creation of the. Great Lakes almost instantaneously it's. a wild argument a wild conversation so.

here here here are the other two. arguments then the other two arguments. are if you have an Extinction like the. five that we've had before and I mean I. argue that you know we're all talking. about the sixth Extinction when we're in. M my argument sort of following an. article that was published in the. National Academy of Sciences in in. 2018 is that the sixth Extinction that. we think of today has actually unlike. all the previous five the fifth one.

being chickalo the sixth one has. actually been happening in slow motion. for 30,000 years it's not just started. it's happening as the people in the. National Academy of Sciences peace put. it when humans spread out of Africa took. out more than 300 mammal species as they. spread across the Earth uh over the. subsequent uh several thousand years and. cost us in what they called in this 2018.

article uh almost a worst case scenario. cost us like two and a half billion. years of specially evolved. genetics so the reason I have been. following that argument and that's kind. of the one I do is that when the younger. dest thing comes up what people point. out is that in all the extinctions. before the pine one those extinctions. took out everything they took out life. in the oceans they took out small.

creatures they took out amphibians. reptiles birds but the plasticine seems. to just be mammals and often just big. mammals and so there's this sort of. logical attempt to try to come up with. what would explain. an Extinction scenario that doesn't take. out things in the ocean that doesn't. take out little creatures but just. focuses on big mammals which is why sort.

of the consensus is going towards this. human spread I don't think they're. mutually exclusive I think you probably. have both things working in conjunction. and I think the good explanation for why. it only kills things that are on earth. and not in the ocean is that it impacts. the ice shell impacts these ice sheets. and causes this almost instantaneous. melting of the ice caps in a. catastrophic way and not everything is. affected by it only the things that get.

impacted by the water and get impacted. by this melting of the Caps I don't know. enough about it to have this. conversation with you but I'm blown away. by this guy Randle Carlson and his. descriptions of it and his understanding. of it and I just think it would be. amazing thing to get together with you. there's no doubt human beings had a. massive effect on and I think that all. these things you're pointing out are. really fascinating and pretty tragic too. that human beings did I mean the one. things that's interesting is the. gestation period of these mammoths right.

like they had to carry their because. they're so big you alluded to this when. you're talking about the Bison so if you. wiped out a clan of them you're you're. making a significant impact it's not. like like rabbits or like coyotes oh. that's exactly right right biologists. call those K species which have these. really long gestation periods so they. would have make them more vulnerable to. human yeah and they also were ignorant. to us until we came here they evolved. for who knows how many years before we.

got here yeah well one of the things I. have always loved about you and your. podcast is your wonderful openness to. people everybody I mean it's I think. it's one of the explanations for why you. know The Joe Rogan Experience is such a. Global hit man I mean you come across as. tell me your [ __ ] and I'm bet I'm going. to love. it well and with your case it's easy.

your your [ __ ] is amazing and uh one of. the big successes is the fact that. people like you were willing to come on. so I really appreciate that oh it was. really entertaining I can't wait to. listen to this one again it was so good. there's so much information and I can't. wait even though somebody else is. reading this book I'll get it on audio. anyway but it's wild New World epic. story of animals and people in America. Dan Flores and I can't recommend enough. his other book coyote America that I've. read and then there's the American. seretti Dan you're the man I appreciate.

you very much Joe you're the man let's. do this again we'll do it with Randall. and we'll have some fun all right thank. you very much bye everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].