Joe Rogan Experience #1968 - Jason Everman

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day well thanks for coming man. appreciate it yeah thanks for asking. you've had a wild life dude how the [ __ ]. does one go from playing in Nirvana and. sound garden to being a. soldier um it's it's it's a longer story. I don't I don't know how I want to hear. it how long an answer you want we got a.

plenty of time okay. um H. so I guess being a professional rock. musician was something I kind of fell. into it wasn't something that I like had. a dream of you know it's like oh I'm. going to be you know I love playing in. bands I love playing music but it was. like at this punk rock level where you. were never going to make a living at it. you know it's just something fun to.

do and then uh started playing with. Nirvana and even at that levels you know. still not making money from it but you. know touring was it the early days of. Nirvana yeah yeah so Nirvana wasn't. worldwide at that point no um there were. U even on the Seattle level like one of. the the the smaller bands you know like. there was bands like mud honey and S. Garden that. were better known than Nirvana was at.

the time for sure and you played for. sound garden too which is also. hilarious yeah and when when did you. like so you're in in the beginning so. did you just have did you have friction. with the band like why did you wind up. leaving so with Nirvana it was. just I guess initially like when I came. on board like Kurt wanted a second. guitar. player for the live show basically like. uh have a heavier sound live take some.

of the guitar playing responsibility off. him so he could concentrate on vocals. like that kind of thing and initially. like I thought I was going to be able to. contribute to the band creatively and. then it got to the point where I. realized that wasn't going to happen and. the same thing happened with Chad the. drummer I think and it was like everyone. in the band including myself was like. very poor poor communicators like a lot. of passive aggression and.

you know I mean we were kids you know. how old were you at the time 20 I think. and yeah I did I just I wasn't equipped. for it. and became more and more unhappy with. the situation and then ended up leaving. so was it that like when you try to uh. put creative input in it would get shut. down or they weren't interested or Kurt. wasn't interested yeah so like on the. rare. time where we actually rehears as a band.

which was not a. lot um Kurt would kind of halfheartedly. like hey you who has ideas and like I'd. throw a couple ideas out and then Chad. like a very accomplished musician in his. own right would throw some ideas out and. then it' just kind of be glossed over. and like okay here's the new song I. wrote you know and start learning that. so it was. very uh entric cursory you know it's.

like he he kind of like threw it out. there but then it it wasn't going to go. anywhere and so um did so you went for. Nirvana first and then to sound garden. yeah like I left we did a US tour like. the First full US tour that Nirvana did. in 88 or ' 89 I can't remember what year. it was but I think it was still the. 80s and like I I left at the end of that. tour like okay I'm I'm done like nice. little for away foray into into rock and.

roll but I'm going to do something else. and when I got. home um I was planning on going trekking. in the Himalayas like really yeah that. was the next that was the next thing. it's like okay this was a nice. diversion but uh I'm going to kind of. fulfill this dream I've had since I was. a kid of like trekking in the Himalayas. so like I went to mear maps in Seattle. and was buying maps of the Himalaya of. Nepal and Tibet and all this stuff and. like like getting gear sorted and that's.

what I was going to do and then uh at. some point that summer or fall I can't. remember what time of year it was Into. Summer um Kim from sound garden called. me and uh was like Hey hero the their. bass player then like quit do you want. to audition for the. band I was like you know at that point. like sound garden was my favorite. Seattle band like hands down and it was. like okay.

you know fully not believing I'd ever. get. chosen and then you did yeah and how did. that end uh I got fired what happened um. it's complicated but I think at the end. of the day um I I wasn't getting along. with Chris that well the. singer and you know obviously you know. who's going to go it was me yeah so how.

does that translate into becoming a. soldier uh I mean there's. more there's there's more to the story. than that cuz there was still. like I basically like getting fired from. sound gard and like put me in a pretty. bad Tail. Spin. um it I mean it it was a a rough patch. in my life for sure and. so in order order to kind.

of. uh cut this tail spin off like I I had. to do something radical and what I did. was ended up moving to New. York and so I mean there's more to the. story than that. um but moved to New York like. basically you know I grew up in rural. Western Washington like so it's kind of. polar opposite to what I what my. experience was like got a job in a house.

got an apartment and kind of started my. New York Life and did that for a couple. of years what was your plan when you. moved to New York you just wanted to try. it experience life in the city I think. the main plan was. like like get out of this funk that I. was in you know how old were you at the. time 21 22 maybe so just young guy. trying to figure out life yeah I mean. like the sound garden thing.

I getting fired from sound garden like. it broke my heart it was it was a bad. spot for me and uh cuz I love that band. and it was it wasn't about you know I. never thought they would get as as big. as they did honestly it kind of. surprised me when they did because yeah. they're a great band but I think I. always thought they were a little too. quirky to. be huge despite you know the Chris. Factor like you know this genetically. engineered rock star you know um but I. always thought they were a little little.

too weird to be have like mainstream. success which was fine with me I thought. they'd be like like a big Indie band. like Sonic Youth or Butthole Surfers. like that level you know and um but it. was more like I I just love that band. and I love playing with them and like. having that taken away yeah it really it. [ __ ] me up for a. bit so you just went to New York City to. try to experience a different life um. just uh running for my demons you know.

like like that old rubric yeah but you. know your demons tend to follow you so. always yeah what were your demons um you. want to go down that rabbit hole there's. a few. um growing up you know like uh and like. everyone has a story right like uh when. my childhood was bad and my childhood. wasn't bad necessarily but it was it was. there was a lot of unhappy happiness for.

sure and. um it stemed from like my mother and my. stepdaughter not being happy you know. they they're um I don't feel bad talking. about it now because they're both gone. now but they you know they probably. shouldn't have gotten married and and. they both and that's one thing is like. an adult like looking back you can kind. of you see your parents as human beings. and not not like these magical creatures.

that like feed you and take care of you. right and you know they got they got. their their dreams and their their you. know Crush dreams like they're humans so. I have a lot of compassion for them now. as an adult it's like oh I get it now. you know it's. like they weren't bad people they were. just people and it's just being a child. in that environment yeah cuz that cuz. that's you have nothing to compare it to. it's just reality it's like oh I guess. this is what being kid is you know kind.

of sucks. yeah it can yeah but through that suck a. lot of times that's where you sort of. get your drive unfortunately oh I'm a. firm believer that that growth is the. result of. trauma like you need that that thesis. antithesis synthesis you know that that. that like Stephen J Gould called it uh. pertaining to Evolution uh punctuated. equilibrium we like.

Evolution tends to stay stable if. there's no. pressures and but as soon as there's. this introduction of new pressures. usually the result of some cataclysmic. event it's not a gradual thing it's. usually sudden and extreme and that's. where these new evolutionary pressures. are introduced and it's. like on this level of species you adapt. and survive or you die off so I I kind. of like putting that template on the. individual.

like you kind of cruise through life and. then something [ __ ] up happens and. then you know hopefully you step up and. grow from it you know learn from it all. that stuff so you go to New York City. you were there for a few years what were. you doing while you were there so. initially I worked in a. warehouse and it was it was fine you. know I was like paying my rent living in. Alphabet City like having having this. urban life that I never thought I would. have had otherwise did you know anybody.

there yeah I had friends there from. touring and stuff and so that was kind. of my my foothold for moving. there um like didn't didn't play music. like I brought some equipment over like. initially I went. over um with like a backpack and that. was it and I had a friend of mine's band. who were on tour picked me up at JFK and. drive me into the. city I still remember this like the day. before like I was doing different kind. of uh work to save money for the move so.

the the day before I flew to New York I. was like bucking bales of hay and like a. Hayfield like Farm stuff right. and my buddy Spike who I'm still good. friends with uh played in this band. called mind over four they picked me up. at JFK and I remember sitting in the van. and looking at my my Converse and like I. still had like straw stuck in the. converse from bailing hay the day before. and I was like okay this is is here we.

go that's an adventure yeah wow so. you're there for a few years living that. life and how do you transition out of. that. so I went back to Seattle at some point. during the first year in New York to. ship more of my personal belongings over. and I actually I went to subpop because. they had they had UPS shipping there and. I'm like boxing up my stuff in the. subpop offices and like getting ready to. ship it to New York like including like. a a cabinet like some music gear but I.

had this vague notion of maybe I'll play. there but honestly I probably didn't. touch a bass or a guitar for like the. first year after getting fired from. sound garden it just it still kind of. had a bad taste in my. mouth but what changed that was summer. of 91. maybe um I was friends with this band. called skunk um. there this indie rock band on Twin tone.

records um there are three Matts Matt. Sweeney Matt Quigley and Matt Coleman so. Matt Quigley the Bas player uh quit. right before a European tour that they. had booked supporting babes and Toyland. um another amazing band and so I get a. call from Matt Sweeney and he's like hey. dude like quigly quit we got this tour. coming up do you do you want to fill on. on BAS for this tour so I'm like uh I.

could I could work in this warehouse in. New York like in the sweltering you know. New York summer heat or I could you know. go to Europe for eight weeks or whatever. and and tour so I'm like yeah okay I'll. do it so learn the songs and uh did that. tour and and to this day it was the. funnest tour I'd ever done and I think. that was. because I really had nothing emotionally. invested in the band.

like I like the music I like the dudes. but um it's just all I had to do was go. out and play to the best of my ability. and yeah it was just fun there there was. no no no burden no heaviness to it you. know like being a part of sound garden. immense band that you would yeah that I. was emotionally invested in you know and. so how do you go from that. to there's more to the story keep going.

okay so uh did the European tour with. skunk and honestly. it I think to this day the best bass. performances I ever did you know I got. some board recordings from that tour. that once in a while I'll listen to it. and go yeah you know it's not bad do you. think it's because you were free because. you you didn't have pressure and burden. I think that was a component for sure. but also um the songs were a bit more.

complicated and stylistically it wasn't. necessarily my jam I was into heavier. stuff and this was kind of more like. Soul Asylum like indie rock which is. great and the base parts were really. complicated so I kind of had to push. myself to learn them. and again like you know Grew From it as. a as a. musician. um so did the tour came back uh I. started playing with this kind of an. indust band on irach records called old.

lady drivers which is like another kind. of interesting foray into a genre that. like I was a fan of like the grind Corps. bands for sure but like even this was. like it's kind of beyond that because. it's very it's a lot of um synthesizers. and drum machines and and stuff that I. really wasn't exposed to before but they. had a record deal with irach and you. know who JN zor is no so he's an. American treasure he's this Avant guard.

jazz musician uh based out of New York. um Google him if you get a chance but. like brilliant um kind of he does a a. lot of stuff he's really prolific um. definitely a genius but so zor was on. board he he produced the record and John. actually lived in my neighborhood so I'd. like go to his apartment he lived like. two blocks away in Alphabet City and he. had this insane record collection like. the whole flat was like shelves of vinyl.

and it was all organized very. meticulously um plastic sleeves for for. each uh jacket it was and he was he was. like a student of American music or. music in general and got his knowledge. and it's just cool like oh so here's. this. guy like very on a at least on an on. a kind of Underground Level like very. well known very well respected like huge.

in Japan of course. um and he's just like this nice kind of. normal dude like giving me a tour of his. record collection you know and we're. both living in the shitty neighborhood. in Manhattan is this cool so that was a. good experience like played played shows. with them like played CBS again um cbgbs. which you know legendary Punk Club in uh. New York which even even having I played. there before but it's just kind of like.

I would still get excited about it it's. like dude I'm playing CBGB this is like. it's like this mythical place when I was. a teenager you know and it's like oh. here I. am um. so did that and but that was kind of. like just a side thing for sure and then. I got. contacted so go going back between the. skunk tour and the old lady driver's. experience I I kind of got into playing. music again. like it it became fun again which is why.

I did it in the first place like it it. it brought me joy but you know there's a. couple times where it got to the point. where the the joy was like fully. extracted from the process and it just. it it wasn't fulfilling anymore you. know so anyway I'm back in New York. working in the warehouse doing my thing. and I get. contacted by um you ever heard of. uniform choice no like a hardcore band. from LA from the. 80s um I get T contacted by Pat dubar.

who was in the 80s the singer for. uniform choice and that was a band I was. familiar with from the punk days and. everything so he he was in this band. called Mind Funk which first off like. horrible name like get. it we we can go into that later but he's. Pat contacts me and he's like hey and. they they were signed to Epic Records. had one record out already and he's like.

hey um we're going to replace our one of. our guitar players and our drummer it's. like are you interested in trying. out and I honestly I hadn't heard their. record and I I gave the first one to. listen and honestly wasn't that excited. about it but it. was it was kind of like at this point in. my life it's like I kind of knew like if. I'm going to give the music thing. another go like this is this is going to. be it you know it's like do this.

and it'll either catch fire or it won't. and if it doesn't I'll go on to the next. chapter whatever that is and. um so I I can't I can't I don't even. think I audition for the band I think. they just okay you're. in so now we're looking for a. drummer so I went and poached uh my. friend Shawn back home in was and he. played in a band that I was a big fan of.

and I was a big fan of Shawn and like. convinced him to like come out to New. York and like join this. band that you know he'd never heard of. and like it took a lot of convincing to. get him to do it but he did it and so um. this kind of Mind Funk 2.0 with Sean and. I uh I one plus side was like okay major. label get put on salary like don't need. a day job anymore right so once again.

I'm I'm a professional rock musician. which not that I care about the title. but it it was nice not to have the day. job so we get a house in in uh Monmouth. County New Jersey in order to write the. next record so band house five of us. living in this. house. um and it was just it was routine like. we we'd get together every day rehearse. write songs um I I was given um more or.

less full creative Reign for for my. ideas and stuff which was fulfilling on. that. level um the the band was managed by by. John zoula do you know who he Johnny Z. no so he he was like the dude who. discovered Metallica that's kind of his. claim to fame and he had a label called. Mega Force records which great 80s movie. by the way if you've never seen it no. it's so good it's about the B no about. it's it's this horrible yet brilliant.

action movie from like 1982 I think but. that's a digression um so JN Mara had. this management company like crazed. management they own Mega Force records. and that's the label that put out kill. them all and the first pressing a Ride. the Lightning and they did uh Merciful. Fate Melissa they did you know some. really good records um like the the. first Anthrax records as well I think so. John managed some some. pretty big bands like he managed Anthrax.

Suicidal. Tendencies a Ministry I. think um like he he was this kind. of known quantity in the music world or. at least in the heavy metal World Hard. Rock World whatever you want to call. it so we had Johnny Z signed to Epic um. had the house in. Jersey writing the. record um like with the the name F Funk. which again is like a dumb name it kind.

of turned me off initially so I. suggested like making it one word like. Contracting it to make it a little less. odious so it did that kind of kind of. changed the logo um so it's kind of. slipping in some aesthetic values that I. thought were better at least and what. what was going on at the time why' you. hate mine Funk so much this is a dumb. name you know it's like the whole Funk. thing it's like oh what chil pepper is. like what no it wasn't like that at all.

you know um but you know there's a lot. of dumb band names out there and if the. band catches fire it doesn't matter if. it's a dumb name it just gets accepted. so that it's not that big a deal. um so recording blah blah blah Johnny Z. we get to. um so we get Terry date uh the producer. on board to produce the second record. and he I knew him he's from Seattle so I.

knew him from s garden and from like. other local bands that he produced like. like a known quantity in that World um. we get we book out bearsville Studio up. in Woodstock New. York um like the studios literally like. on this old you know Dutch Farm it's. like idolic so we get a bearsville. booked out for three months got Terry. Dade on board. um it's like September of.

90 let's be September. 92 um we pack up the U-Haul all the gear. uh drive up to bearsville to start the. next. record so sea and I are in the barn. setting up equipment on this Farm to. start the pre-production work like I. don't know it's probably a Saturday or. no it's a Friday it was definitely a. Friday so we're we're setting up the. equipment to start pre-production work.

when Terry gets in and. uh I think Pat came down to the barn as. we're setting up and it's this late. September you know the the heat has kind. of left like New York state so it's. Pleasant outside it was beautiful sunny. a farm you know this Old Barn we're. setting up equipment in. and Pat says hey we got to get everyone. together we like. got some bad.

news so epic the label had dropped the. band like that. day like like like catastrophic right or. could have been catastrophic and just. the fact that it was like a Friday. afternoon I'm sure it was like a Post-It. note on some dude at epic's like. computer monitor drop Mind Funk you know. it's like oh [ __ ] I got to do that so. it's like [ __ ] you know it's like a. $300,000 recording budget um Terry D's.

producer like every the band's literally. homeless like we're going to live at the. studio but it's like okay what now so. the dude who managed barville and I. can't remember his name he's this. British guy super sweet and he's like he. saw we were in a tight spot he's. like you know and he's out like a huge. lump of money right cuz that that studio. was booked out for three months that's. like a huge you know quarter million.

dollars probably. um he's like you guys can stay here. and sort out what you got to sort out. kind of thing. so um I remember Pat and I were living. in one of the cottages on the property. it's like this very quaint little. Farmhouse and like where you know at. least I won't speak for everyone but I. was in a days I was. like. um [ __ ] you know I was like already like. lining up getting my warehouse job back.

like all this stuff and so I remember. just like staying in this house sleeping. on this antique leather sofa and I have. my cat with me so it's me and my cat. watching Bad daytime TV I think I lived. on like Cheerios and like soda like just. nasty right just because I was too lazy. to go go to a restaurant or buy food to. cook or just like it's easy bowl of. cereal and some soda like this just. sounds so gross now and that even then.

like that's not how I normally ate but. during that period That's what I was. eating so I was watching Bad daytime. television um and I remember there was. this um wall hanging in the room in the. living room and it was this Mac like. koala. bear you know kind of. tacky and I I kind of started obsessing. on this Mac koala bear to the point. where it's like if if I ever have a. daughter I'm going to name her KOA.

Mac you know again D no speaking of dumb. names but um luckily that passed and I. came up with a replacement for a. daughter's name that was much better but. um so during that. week um Johnny Z our our manager who. personally I didn't really like him that. much you know. um he he was kind of he's a there was. something kind of dodgy about him like.

in that music business way that also put. a bad taste in my mouth um on a lot of. levels um just being in that that. industry but Johnny you know as much as. I didn't like him he came through and. maybe he was motivated by economic. reasons rather than you know he's being. a standup guy or whatever but he signed. the band to megga force to his. label um. put up the money for the recording to.

record the record put us all back on. salary so didn't miss a beat like no one. had to get a day. job and then Terry Terry date much to. his. credit like he he had every right to. bail right it's like okay what what's. the next gig okay I'm there he got us um. studio time at bad animal studio in. Seattle which is heart's old recording. studio it's gone. now um all this happened in like a week. 10 days um like everything was back on.

track just like new label uh new studio. in. Seattle and so loaded up the gear flew. to Seattle and like probably 10 days. later we're doing pre-production demos. at bad. animals and recorded the record. and it was done I think by December the. mix was done I actually went back to New. York and and worked in the warehouse for. a month to make some extra. money and then the B well not the whole.

band but uh Sean Pat and I um decided to. move to San Francisco just for like a. change of. venue so I think New Year's Day or the. day after um I loaded up U-Haul with all. our stuff and like drove cross country. by myself which was like a super fun. road trip and then we got an apartment. in the Mission District in San Francisco. and that's where like like 1993 was was. a very transitional year and that's.

where kind. of uh things got to the point where it's. like okay I got to do something. different for me. personally and what happens. next so the we're living in San. Francisco like that like even the while. we're living in the house in New. Jersey um during the recording process. in Seattle and and in San Francisco like. like taking a lot of drugs like a lot of. hallucinogens mostly but you know had.

had my flirtation with Heroin like first. started um just smoking it you know on. on tinfoil and then went into IV use um. and like I honestly enjoyed it but it. never got his hooks in me and I got to. the point where I was like U yeah I. should probably not continue down this. path and walked away from it that's a. big step to go to intervenous yeah well. like I'm I'm a completist I guess it's.

like I want I don't want to do it half. halfway see what the fuss is all about. yeah exactly yeah what is the fuss all. about uh so the feeling what's your. experience with opius only like while. I've been under like having surgery yeah. so it's the same yeah just that kind of. weightless feeling it's very nice like. it's I guess the analogy I can make is. just that kind of post-orgasmic bliss m. you're weightless and everything feels.

wonderful it's like. that you know but induced artificially I. guess. um living in San Francisco so we toured. a lot that year probably half the year. was touring like Europe and the. states and then when we were back in San. Francisco it was like you know still on. salary you didn't have to work so just. hang out and like you know drop pass it. or or drink mushroom tea or whatever and.

as fun as that is it was like. uh like long term I don't know you know. if this is going to be right and it you. know the the record never caught fire I. think it's a solid record like when I. hear tracks off of it. now you know I'm kind of like no it's. not bad you know it's. okay um there's a couple of the songs on. that record were Bas basically nent. sound garden songs you know there were.

like riffs or song ideas I had that. while playing with sound garden like. Chris would hear me playing it like. noodling around and he'd be like oh. remember that you know and so I had a. couple ideas that in a in a in a. different life would have been on the. next sound Garten record conceivably so. there's a couple of those songs on. there not a bad record and we did um. played like a bunch of the big festivals. in Europe like we we did pretty much.

everything but make a bunch of money you. know which is again most bands you know. most bands don't catch. fire so what happened so dur during this. period. 1993 um I I started I guess crafting the. next the next chapter right for me and. I'd always been really intrigued by the. military. U my grandfather both my grandfathers.

were World War II vets um so my maternal. grandfather was a tank commander in. World War. II and he was kind of. my introduction to like military stuff. you know and I'm I'm a little kid so I'm. intrigued by it like you know tank. commander that's cool like he on D-Day. he was an E4 Corporal like Gunner on a. Sherman tank. on VE Day his unit had made it all the.

way to Vienna and he was a company. commander and it was just survival like. attrition like you know I'm sure he was. a fine Soldier but it was just attrition. that he went from Corporal to captain in. you know a year or. whatever um my grandmother's second. husband um was a a Corman in the Navy so. his story is super funny like he grew up. in the small town on the Columbia River.

in Washington state so his I think there. was like 20 dudes in his graduating. class in high school and so they. graduated June. 1942 so right after graduation like 2011. like every every male in his class went. to the recruiter and enlisted and so he. went in the Navy um his Navy MOS was. like a pharmacist made or something like. that so he's like oh I'll be on the ship. like working in the dispensary or.

whatever like wrong like he graduates. like they give him a helmet and attach. him to a marine platoon infantry platoon. and like you're the medic and so he did. like seven amphibious assaults in the. Pacific like crazy stuff right wow yeah. like was super hard and he had amazing. Stories you know um and then my my. father's father was in the Coast Guard. and he did um a lot of coastal Patrol R. in um Oregon coast Washington coast.

Columbia River during the war um just. you know looking for Japanese subs or. whatever and so you because you had this. sort of wander lust that made you want. to go trekk in the Himalayas and you had. this family that this background in the. military you were thinking that this. would be something that would be. adventurous or intriguing to you yeah. like I've. always I've always had a taste for like. high adventure like as a child like.

before probably even before I was school. so like sat Saturday morning cartoons. like how old are you 55 yeah we're same. age so I imagine probably grew up with. similar cultural influences so I. remember in the like mornings watching. TV shows like cartoons like Johnny Quest. was the big one right a Speed Racer. Marine boy like all this you know Speed. Racer and Marine boy were were animated. but there were like great you know. Marine boy was basically Speed Racer but.

underwater you know this super cool. Fantastical stuff um great to feed the. imagination like the the writing for. Johnny Quest was so good you know and. like the show in in retrospect was like. kind of progressive it's like Johnny had. two dads and like they had this like. um multi-racial like composite family. like is like but the ride was so solid. like super.

creative um every I think it was only 26. episodes but each episode is distinct. and well written and just just cool you. know so I would watch this as a kid and. be like I'm not sure what that is but I. want to do that you know so that was. kind of the initial impetus for like and. then growing up in the woods in western. Washington. like I was expected you know I was. kicked outside after breakfast and not. expected to be seen again till dinner. time and what I did between then was.

like on me and so I'd go out and do. stupid stuff like climb high tension. power lines you know to the top like. like five six years old like so so so. stupid right but it was like oh this is. cool you know um like and my. mother she definitely facilitated this. stuff like um much to her. credit like we'd go camping uh. in the Olympic rainforest on the. peninsula and there's like a couple.

Rivers there but one of the main ones is. the ho River and I had this as a child I. had like this $20 you know Kmart. inflatable raft with the ores and my mom. would drive me up River like like 10. miles or 15 miles or whatever in our. Volkswagen bus and like dropped me off. me and my my $20 Kmart boat and a a life. best and she'd be like all right see you. at the campground and so I would be.

doing this like you know white white. water rafting by myself in my in my. cheesy little boat for several several. miles in you know D it drown obviously. but it kind of instilled again this or. reinforced this sense of adventure you. know and I'm sure my mom would go to. jail for that today you know probably. not jail but yeah definitely be. discouraged m. um so that's background for the high.

adventure thing the military thing. um so 1993 I'm like okay. um like I I need to do something I need. that punctuated equilibrium right I need. I need a a a dramatic event in order to. promulgate like the next period of. growth or Evolution or whatever so you. really actively thought that way yeah. you were trying to achieve growth yeah I.

didn't want to stagnate I didn't want to. um fall behind you. know um. as like I guess as soon as I figured out. what life authorship was or the concept. even though I may may have not have. known the. term yeah I kind of endeavored to. actively author my own life. um um you know pursuing the ends of. making a life that kept me engaged kept.

me. interested um and was was meaningful to. me you know so the military seemed like. like more and more like a viable. option for for that next that next page. that next. step so I I at the time like 1993 there. wasn't a lot of books out about Special. Operations um and pretty much the only. ones that were out there were like. Vietnam dudes so I I devoured powered. every you know Vietnam War Special.

Operations book whether it was like lurs. Rangers seals SF whatever had dick. marenko written his books yet that I. don't. know um I don't think so because I think. I would have remembered reading them I. read one of them when I was um in goog. in Ranger school and it was it seemed. kind. of like over the top to me but but. that's a a digression I think there was. one book out about like uh the soft.

experience during the first golf war and. it they kind of went over different. units and different operations and I. think that's the only kind of. contemporary one that I was even. out but it was like yeah yeah I'm going. to do this so while we're in San. Francisco you know between like dropping. acid and taking mushrooms I was going to. the recruiter and like uh I went to the. Navy recruiter first cuz I actually knew. someone who was a seal a former seal and.

so that seemed intriguing to me so I go. to the Navy recruiter I'm like hey I. want to I want to be a seal and they're. like. well um here take the asab so the ASVAB. is like this IQ test that the military. gives you and uh so I took it and I I. scored pretty high on. it and so they're trying to push me into. like more technical Moss's you know and. I'm like but no that's not what I wanted. what does MOS stand for oh sorry um if I.

get too jargony please stop me yeah um. military occupational specialty your. your your job mhm and the Navy doesn't. even call it MOS I think they call it. rate or something like. that. and so I'm like no I didn't want to do. that so basically it came down to they. couldn't even promise me a shot at at. trying out for buds you know taking the. PT test. basically and so I didn't know really.

anything about the military but I knew. enough or I suspected enough that like. okay I'm not I'm not going to sign. anything unless I'm like guaranteed a. shot and so that's when I started. talking to the Armory. recruiter and uh they could guarantee me. so basically they gave me a ranger. contract so Ranger regiment's. interesting in that it's pretty much the. only operations unit in the US military. that has has privates like has brand new.

soldiers um pretty much every other unit. it's all. ncos so that's kind of that's kind of. your entry level soft unit in the US. military is Ranger. regiment and so what. happens so I finished my mindfunk. touring. obligations which went pretty much. almost up until Christmas like in into. mid December.

say and. uh like left the. band uh and I think two months later I. was in basic. training what were you thinking while. you were in basic training uh I. mean basic training is. like it was like every movie cliche. you've seen like happens it's like oh. and this is you know this part. um it.

was it was a necessary step right for. for the progression um it wasn't really. challenging other the most challenging. part about it was like not being able to. do what I wanted to do whenever I wanted. to do it that was like the biggest. challenge for me um your your entire. life your every minute of your day is. controlled so that was kind of like yeah. I don't know if I he dig is you know. right and uh but you know sucked it up.

went through it. um after um what they call AIT like. Advanced individual training which for. me was infantry you go through the. Infantry MOS training uh go to Airborne. school and then go to uh selection for. regiment so was what was the physical. aspect of it like cuz it seemed like. you're just partying and living life you. know know like a rock star before that. you just doing heroin and all this and.

then all of a sudden you know you're. involved in something that's very. physically grueling but I I did I did. prep like I got a a YMCA membership and. I was swimming at the Y I was running I. was I even though I was kind of going. into it somewhat blind I didn't I knew. that like I can't just show up like and. not have any kind of Fitness level you. know mhm so I did did do some prep work. and I I think it served me well was that. the first time you had done physical.

stuff like that in your life no I mean I. I was never uh I played soccer when I. was a kid um like the soccer was like. the the one sport that wasn't didn't. have that jock culture you know so. that's kind of what I gravitated towards. so and you know I did a lot of physical. outside stuff like my whole life you. know I worked in Alaska on a fishing. boat like um there was nothing it wasn't.

foreign you know like physical. exertion and. so what happens. then uh go to selection uh at the time. it was called Rip like the the ranger. indoctrination program uh now they call. it rasp like the ranger assessment. selection program something like that um. and I think it's a week longer now but. like like RI R is when things got. physically challenging for sure it was.

basically you just get abused for 3. weeks basically you know they try to. make you quit and so like the runs like. we do these like non-standard runs and. rip that was it pushed pushed me to my. limits like I was always kind of at the. back of the pack um like I was still. with the main body so I was I was. keeping up I was meeting the standard. but like right behind me were like all. the dudes who were like getting and put. on the truck like you're done you know.

so it's like you look at that and like. dig a little deeper and like keep going. you know um but yeah got got. selected um and went to Second ranger. battalion and uh did you immediately get. deployed like what what year are we. talking about here this was 93 no 94. okay so this is post Desert Storm yeah. what was the Environ like um so it was. like it was Clinton Era military um.

peacetime military so like everything. was geared towards training right like. there was a few dudes in in my company. who were like Panama vets and so that. was like 19 1989 I. think just cause so there's some of. those dudes hanging out and I could tell. they were just waiting for the next like. real world op that's all they were doing. they're biting time and like now I get. it and I think even then I kind of got.

it but um for just train what do you. mean by get it like you know that's you. want to do it for real you still want to. train all the time right. so yeah it just a lot of a lot of. training um there was deployments but it. was just all training. deployments um. yeah you know win winter range school. like got my Ranger. Tab and what happens after.

that uh I finished my enlistment it like. a four-year enlistment I think and then. I I got out because it was. like in a way I kind of thought like I. achieved what I aimed to achieve by. going in the military and there. definitely you know wasn't a war on the. horizon at least one that no one that. anyone could. see um. so I had a break in service for a couple.

years and I I kind of [ __ ] off. um ended up. going to Community College which is like. another kind of funny. story if you're interested sure. so I I came back to Washington basically. um when my when my mother. died and. so I I was kind of like dealing with.

with her and her stuff and it was like. there's like a local community college. uh where I grew up and like uh maybe. maybe I'll give this college thing a try. you know and so I registered for some. classes but the the funny thing about. that story. is when I was like eight 18 I guess 17. like right before I graduated high. school. um all my friends from high school who.

were going to go to college cuz like in. my mind I was never going to go I was. like why am I going to go to college. like [ __ ] this you know as you know. Angry Young Man uh dissatisfied on. pretty much every level but I was like. yeah I'm not going to. college college has nothing for me but I. wanted to hang out with my friends like. the dudes I skateboarded with and played. music with and stuff and so they were. all going to take their SATs at the. local Community College like on a. Saturday morning or whatever it was and.

so I went with them just so I could hang. out with. them and I I took the SATs but I took my. SATs on. acid how'd that go I have no idea I I. didn't care I never picked up you know. the scores like is probably just like. making designs on the paper or something. like you know I at that point like. Academia like hire education that just. wasn't going to happen for me and so.

yeah it's kind of this [ __ ] you punk. rock thing like I'm going to take my. SATs on acid right so fast forward 10. years I'm in that same room at Olympic. College in a. class take taking an astronomy class um. and the building is still there it's. called the Rotunda and it's this round. as you could imagine building on campus. and uh yeah so who's laughing now. yeah so what was your idea like doing.

that taking astronomy classes going to. college uh again personal growth like oh. may maybe I should focus on this aspect. now like Academia like so I did that. first semester or first two semesters at. Olympic College and found that I liked. it you know I like going to class and I. like taking notes and I like learning. and I'm like oh. I get it now you know this whole College. thing so I finished my associates.

um at Olympic College and then went back. in the. Army and so I was in the Special Forces. qualification. course like when 911 happened and what. caused you to go back in the Army uh it. it was a gut feeling it was like I don't. think I'm done with this so I I I went. went to selection got selected and. selection at least at the time was good.

for Life basically so how many years. were you out like two two years AG yeah. not not long not long at all in in you. know I blink now and two years goes by. but a lot it happened personally in. those two years and so I'm back back in. the Army uh doing the Special Forces. qualification. course which for my MOS like the 18. Bravo Special Forces weapons sergeant. was like about a year and a half so it. was the first day of language.

school um which was 6 months. long um was. 911 wow. yeah what was it like being in the. military when 911 went down it. was like I think everyone there so we. there's a group of us in this building. at Fort Brag called the soav the Special. Operations academic facility. and we're you know standing around the.

beginning of the day like drinking. coffee getting ready to go to class. first day of class and there's. television monitors on with CNN or. whatever and we're watching the planes. go into the tower and like I think to A1. everyone knew that everything's changing. right now it's like this is like 100%. for real and like everyone was like yeah. you know that's how you felt oh yeah. yeah y all the training yeah like. finally we're going to do. something so what happens then uh I'm in.

language school for another six months. so what are you learning uh. Tai why Tai it's just like my my units. uh area of responsibility was Asia so I. to do in Asian language and I like high. food. so um graduate the Q course like do a. couple of J sets and Asia so Jet's a. joint combined uh exchange.

training so you basically go your team. goes and trains with a. foreign uh Special Operations unit and. you you teach them stuff or you you know. and it's more just to like establish. Rapport and maybe get some access or. whatever so do a couple jets in Asia and. then uh get ready to go to Iraq uh to. prep for The Invasion like an O2. and like spent a lot of time in Kuwait. just like training and getting.

preparing what was it like when you went. there to Iraq yeah. so that that was like my first like. combat experience and. so it was unique in that so my team and. a couple other teams are basically. attached. to um the fourth ID to provide kind of. Route reconnaissance and screening and. stuff for the kind of this main uh.

conventional military you know. Invasion and so watching watching big. army work you know do do what they do. best was pretty amazing like uh like. tank engagements like I never thought. I'd witness that. um it was just almost like. a and it's probably a trite cliche but. like a movie you know watching this.

massive mechanized Force just like Crush. everything in its path so. yeah when you were over there was any. doubt that you had done the right thing. by enlisting and again yeah no doubt no. doubt at all you were geared up ready to. go. yeah so what happened when you were over. there uh like gotten some gunfights you. know uh hit some. targets um and then you know re. redeployed back to the.

States you say that so casually got in. gunfights and hit some targets like it. had to be a pretty extreme experience. yeah but honestly I I think my Afghan. experiences were more intense than Iraq. for sure yeah yeah it's just it was a. different. animal and when did that happen so did. uh some rotations in Afghanistan. following uh the Iraq invasion. and it was kind of the more traditional. like SF Mission like working with.

indigenous troops and and leading them. on on raids and things like. that that's got to be a. wild change of life to go from being a. musician to go from being a deployed. special operator in. Afghanistan like the shift in. Consciousness is so. extreme maybe maybe but I I I think I'm. pretty good at just with rolling with.

stuff you know it's like oh this is. happening now okay but that's a big. happening it's a huge happening to be in. combat I mean definitely I think the war. and and combat was the most profound. experience of my life for sure and and I. I don't mean to maybe treat it lightly. because I don't take it lightly yeah by. far the most profound experience of my. life so many guys who come back from.

that not only do they say it's the most. profound experience of their life but. many of them say it was the best. experience of their life um I understand. that for. sure like uh I guess I could encapsulate. it like. this like you got you got your your. dudes you know your your your team your. your little indigenous Troopers and. you're going to go Crush some. Target and you know you you know like I.

never had a doubt that um like maybe I. would get injured or killed but that the. that the I never had a doubt that the. mission would fail just because the odds. were just in our favor you know it's. like you got night vision you got a a. cast stack you got this huge support. apparatus it's. like there's no way we're not going to. win this fight um but but. Going On Target closing with destroying. the enemy and then getting you and all.

your dudes back to base alive best. feeling in the world really yeah so many. guys say that best feeling in the world. wow yeah what is it like what can you. describe it I I it's um or give an. attempt I think like and I got my kind. of evolutionary ideas about why that is. is MHM um I. think that we're.

we're on a very essential level like. doing what human beings or one of the. things we're meant to do or maybe one of. the things we've always done well we're. an adversarial species but like every. species in nature is adversarial you. know and it's not an evaluative State. evaluative statement it's just kind of. an. observation so I think on. this just the way our brains are like.

evolutionarily like okay we're the. monkeys with the big brains right and. we've created this very. technologically um Advanced if not. challenging environment now that we live. in but the way our firmware up here. we're still hominids on the Savannah you. know like. 100% And so I. think through through War through combat. we kind of tap into that. Primal okay this is what we're supposed.

to do you. know and was that surprising to have. that part of your mind sort of ignited. in in a sense where you realize that. like this is like something that's. deeply embedded in your DNA yeah I. mean I I know I'm making that claim but. it's it's it's it's not based on like. scientific research I've done it's just. kind of been inition well many many make. that claim it's it's not an uncommon. thought yeah so it it rings true to me.

and like have you read like uh that. Sebastian younger book tribe yeah great. book yeah and like his thesis like. that's the first kind of PTSD thesis I. read that kind of rang true with me cuz. like before that the popular conception. was you know the these young men and. women go off to war and see horrible. things and come back [ __ ] up. but like his thesis where they they lose. that lose that tribe right that task and.

purpose uh Unity of effort you know. literally we're we're tribal creatures. like that's that's what we that's how we. operate like I I I did a paper when I. was doing my. undergrad um I think I was trying to. investigate like genetic impetus for. like human conflict or whatever and like. some one of the during my research one. of the things I found that was super. interesting to me was the way.

psychologically we're equipped to deal. with about 100 to 120 individuals like. that that that would be our extended. tribe our social group dunbar's number. is that what it is yeah okay yeah it's. um this group of people that you can. contain in your mind yeah and it it's. segmented there's like a a small number. PE of people that you're intimately. attached to there's a larger number that. are close but more like Associates and.

friends and then there's people that you. know and it extends out it actually. extends even further than 120 or 150. gets to like people you are aware of but. it's it's fairly small which is one of. the weird things about knowing a lot of. people yeah that that number gets really. weird and then your your memory of. people it's almost like your brain. deletes them because there's no. room like but then like how well do you. know them as well you know like how how. intimate is that.

relationship so an interesting. correlation I made like researching this. paper was that that number is is the. same number um in Army tastic. organization as an infantry company is. 120 and that's kind of like you you know. your main operational unit as a in the. Infantry at least like soft you're. dealing with smaller teams smaller. numbers but like I thought wow 120. that's it you know and is that by Design.

or is that just the way it worked out. it's probably goes back to our tribal. Roots most likely that we evolved being. accustomed to that group of people that. number of people or a similar number. yeah I mean just survival like like our. our mission statement is biological. organisms you know e even like the big. brain monkeys that we are is like like. survive and replicate the. yeah and like everything else is kind of. window dressing you know it's like and.

like you you you. can window dress it however you want to. make it seem more important than that. but and I'm I'm a huge fan of the window. dressing like like that's definitely the. the salt and the soup for sure MH but if. you boil it down to you know it's you. know what is the quiddity of being a. human being It's that or any biological. organism like survive and and and. replicate the Gene and so the the whole. capacity for for combat for human.

Warfare is like even as an. individual if if you're killed in. combat on if you go back to like this. group of hominids on the Savannah you're. probably related to everyone in your. group so it's like okay maybe I won't. pass my genes on but my cousin over here. will so I'm going to support that effort. so I think that kind of organized. um conflict one group against another is.

in support of that like I think. anthropologists have a term for it um. pseudo. kinship where say in a combat situation. so you got like the the classic uh. scenario of like a dude jumping on a. hand grenade to save his buddies M you. know and that's like that's hardwired. that's not a conscious decision you know. you. because I think if if you had time to. actually think about it maybe you. wouldn't do it right you know but it's.

that that pseudo kinship. like that I think that's and to me. that's always what's been I think the. most interesting Paradox about war and. combat is it's this event this human. event that. simultaneously brings. about acts of pure Selfless Love and. brutality without quarter in the same.

instant so that that's always intrigue. me well it's always fascinating for me. to talk to people that are intelligent. like yourself that have experienced that. because that that thread that you're. you're expressing it seems to ring true. with almost all of them that there's. there's something about it that although. brutal and. maybe in in some ways unexpected it also.

Rings true with like a purpose and that. your. life is intimately connected to these. people and in some way that becomes more. satisfying than any other way to live. mhm yeah and to hear a person like. yourself who's obviously very smart. Express that it's it's. always it's really interesting to. someone like myself who has an. experience that but kind of understands. what you're. saying I'm sure you do I mean it's I'm.

sure it rings true with you right yeah. like just just intuitively yeah yeah and. you're aware of this while you're. experiencing because you're obviously an. analytical person so you're aware of. this while you're experiencing it um. so I can think of instances where I've. had these flashes of awareness like. okay I remember one target like we we.

halfed in like a helicopter assault. Force so I was on the second. 47 no I think I was on the second lift. like it's a pretty big element going in. and I remember Landing in this poppy. field like stepping off the ramp and. like I could hear gunfire like there was. already it was already on right on. target and so I got my little Afghan. Commando Troopers so like okay man let's.

go and like I remember running up this. hill and I was aware in that moment like. okay this is odd that this. is you know the cliche of like running. to the gunfire and I I believe me I. don't consider myself like a a heroic. person at all it was it wasn't it wasn't. even a conscious decision I was doing it. and it was like I was trying to get. there as quickly as I could and and it. it did occur to me like yeah this is. kind of weird you know but it is your.

training and it also is your purpose. yeah yeah and I I don't know which. supervans on what but yeah for sure how. bizarre was it the whole poppy fields. thing because I remember one of the most. interesting uh aspects of the war was. that we were protecting poppy fields and. there was this weird video I don't know. if you ever seen it of haralo Rivera who. was on Fox News spinning this in some. sort of a way but realizing how.

ridiculous it sounded while he was. interviewing a general who's on the on. the field or I don't remember it was a. general Soldier who's on the field who's. explaining why they were doing this that. they were guarding the poppy fields so. that these people could keep making. heroin mhm and you know you're you're. looking at this and especially someone. who has a knowledge of Vietnam that it. was intimately connected with drug. running and that there was a lot of that. going on that was part of the purpose of. it and that somewhere someone was.

profiting off of this to the tune of. billions of dollars and you're not. exactly sure how or how it was being. done or what involvement the United. States military had in it but in this. particular instance you're living in the. era of social media and the internet not. not necessarily social media but at. least the internet where people are very. aware of things like that that are at. the very least inconsistent with the.

narrative that we have here in America. that drugs are bad bad people sell drugs. bad people make drugs we have to stop. the drugs from getting into the country. now here you are you know we're we're. watching haralo Rivera a fox reporter. putting this like really clunky spin on. why we have to do this and I can only. imagine it's because it had already been. exposed that the United States was doing. that and they had to say well we have to. come up with some sort of an excuse for. why we're guarding heroin.

production. so I guess my understanding of if if the. US mil was doing that is probably like a. secondary consideration cuz like at. least down south like that that's a huge. part of the economy it's like OBM. production yeah and I would guess it. would. [Music]. be eradicating like the the poppy fields. would be a worse Choice like like. economically destabilizing like you know. these people who are already super.

poor um but it's also for sure yeah. aiding in the profit of selling heroin. oh I I mean the Taliban would make money. from opium production you know even. though it's against Islam or whatever. it's like yeah no it was I I don't know. how to crack that nut was that talked. about over there yeah I mean like de I. know DEA was over there doing doing. their thing what were they doing selling. it I don't know like that's what's so. strange is that it seems like you you.

know especially when you have this. disconnection from the mainstream media. and from you know channels of. information getting to other people that. this is a part of what's happening over. there that there's it was I believe it. one point in time was 90 plus per of the. world's heroin yeah yeah was coming from. Afghanistan. yeah I mean I I don't I don't have an. answer bizarre though right yeah did you.

think how bizarre it was when or was. just that was inconsequential that was. not yeah it wasn't like another poppy. field like it was just part of the. landscape you know but yeah I probably. didn't put much thought into it how did. they cultivate the PO I mean they were. doing all this in the middle of combat. in the middle of War like how were they. handling all that uh I mean like in my. experience like if we did hit a Target. that was like in a remote place like. that like they weren't they weren't.

seeing Coalition. forces often if at all you know it's. kind of like they probably thought they. were a save Haven. so I mean I think when you get closer to. the The Bu builtup areas and at least at. the time I I mean like the whole Afghan. government was so corrupt anyway so I. think probably the main people making. money were you know Afghan. generals you know which I think at one. time the Afghan Army had like 3,000.

General officers or something that like. this inverted pyramid of leadership like. Oh I'm a general you know and they all. have mansions and it's all corruption. money and yeah how where was that being. a part I like that's the side that you. were on I mean you're you're you're over. there sort of. helping yeah like. I think you just got to focus on the. tribe right like the it's like you and.

your dudes and and you have this task. and you're going to accomplish it to the. best of your ability and bring everyone. back alive and then the the political. side of it I mean yeah it'd be easy to. get kind of demoralized yeah that's what. if if you focus on that yeah was it. bizarre for you as someone who has done. heroin to think like oh this is where it. comes from um. I mean I think I I was conscious of that. but like it didn't it wasn't that crazy.

it's. like so even though you knew that there. was a rampant corruption and that. there's a lot of things that were kind. of [ __ ] it was still your tribe your. task. yep did did you spend any time pondering. like whether or not that made sense or. did you just just do what you were. supposed to do uh yeah I think I. reflected on it and then would just you. know do it you know did anybody talk. about it over there yeah I.

think yeah and I I would talk about it. too like you know as the war progressed. you would see the these Mansions being. built around Cobble and stuff you know. these ridiculous like concrete mansions. and like uh that's our tax dollars are. paying for that Mansion you know or it's. corruption money or it's it's opium. money or whatever and it's. just it's just part of the the culture. there you know like how do you fix that. it's like like I remember talking to one.

of our. interpreters over there and like so I'm. I'm not married don't have a. family. and so obviously everything over there. is very family oriented or you know. family. tribe um you know that it's everything's. geared towards like blood relations and. things like that and like like a the. stronger and larger your family is the. stronger your tribe is like that whole. thing it's like a different Paradigm.

than than we have in the in you know the. west and and so we're talking we're just. bullshitting and he's asking me about my. family and I'm like oh I don't you know. I don't have a family just me um but you. know my my neighbor has the keys to my. house and you know they they can go in. take care of stuff if I need something. taken care of and all this and like the. first thing he asks is like. and they do not steal all your. things because that's what he was.

thinking right like oh if I had your. keys I'd be stealing your [ __ ] right and. that's the mentality like that it's just. it's different you know the houses down. there each house each family unit house. is a miniature Fortress you know and. it's because it's this culture that uh. that they habitually pray upon each. other so the houses need to be these. Mini fortresses you know where here in. the west you know like I don't I don't. have a fence around my property my.

neighbors have my keys like it's fine. you know yeah how bizarre was that. though to to go over there and. experience this completely different way. of life with other human beings living. on another part of the world completely. different set of values different goals. and expectations different religion it. it was fascinating yeah like just cuz. that part of the world like Central Asia. is like such a fascinating part of the. world like all the way back to Antiquity.

mhm um all the history that's like. transpired you know in that area like. any chance I got to see something like. somewhat historical like there's still. remains of like Greek ruins from 300 BC. really yeah in Afghanistan yeah really. oh yeah there was a whole I never got to. this town but up on the oxis river. and it it's there's been several. attempts over the decades to do an.

archaeological ex excavation of the. entire city but it's like it's a no [ __ ]. Greek city in Central Asia wow so when. Alexander of Macedon when Mastadon. Mastadon ma when Alexander of Macedon. Alexander the Great yeah was his. campaign in Asia so he pushed all the. way to the indis river but what he would. would do along the way is establish. alexandrias so you know Alexandria and.

Egypt but there's multiple alexandrias. like the uh the atmology of of kahar the. the town in. Afghanistan is you know if you go back. it was iscandar and iscandar literally. means Alexandria that was one of the. alexandrias wow that he established in. Central Asia and all. over. U Persia an Asia Minor and like that was. a thing so he and it was a way to kind. of maintain a foothold in that part of.

the world like build a city um establish. like a Greek education system to educate. the locals and the in the Greek model um. so he was kind of projecting you know he. was in it for the long. game like this was part of Greece it's. going to be Greek and it the Greco. Bactrian. Empire if you want to call it that. probably lasted like a hundred years and. then it just fell apart are there uh is.

there like documentation of the the. Greek cities the ruins in in Afghanistan. yeah can Jamie can you pull some of that. up so you can find any of that that's. fascinating I had no idea so the old um. Alexandria here it is. wow that's incredible yeah and so that's. just abandoned now yeah that's amazing. mhm and this is this from 300 BC yeah. around that.

wow that's amazing I had no. idea so at one point in time that had. been some sort of a thriving. Community yeah the the city on the. oxis um ion see where it says ion. Wikipedia that was the city on the. Oxys wow. yeah wow so they had an Amphitheater. yeah is a full-on Greek city that's. incredible.

yeah that is. wild and so how did they how did they. maintain it and how did it. collapse uh I mean I I don't know look. at that that's intense man but that's up. north in uh kundu what is that statue. Jamie where it say a history yeah it's a. Buddha statue it's a Buddha statue the. Buddha is on like the Taliban blew those. up oh right yeah [ __ ] what a.

bummer how old were. those. um that I'm not. sure but there there's a lot of. historians think that like like the vas. and and Buddhism kind of started like. more in the a Afghanistan area really. yeah no kening the vadas yeah wow look. at the all this [ __ ] all these. Buddhas yeah there's tons of uh the.

there's some really cool so there there. was this really interesting period of. history of of Greco Buddhism in Central. Asia there was one um one of the Greco. ban Kings menander actually converted to. Buddhism and there was this brief moment. of. um brief period of Greco Buddhism in. Central Asia. and so the the Buddhas that were carved.

so they're carving statues of the Buddha. and stuff but it's in this total Greco. Roman style so they're beautiful pieces. of Art and it's it's literally a a a. Greek Buddha you know you you look you. look at it stylistically and it's like. that's Greek but it's a Buddha and it's. is it's cool cool you know flash in the. pan of History you know see if you can. find any images of that are those all. gone the Taliban blow them all up no I. mean these so there's actually. some at the at the Met New York that.

I've seen um I've seen some at the. national museum in. Cobble. um look at that. so yeah that's so strange because it's. so obviously like influenced by Greek. art yeah the the the folds and the robe. and all that yeah yeah wow. wow that's really really cool really.

interesting human civilization is so. bizarre the rise and fall of these. Empires and these civilizations and to. for you to go and and visit it in the. middle of combat must have been. particularly. bizarre yeah like I would like I would. try to I try to get. in do my share of for lack of a better. term like tourism like uh like I went to.

the old Citadel outside of. kahar where you right now it when you're. on the ground it doesn't look like. anything but if you go to like Google. Earth you can see the old outline of the. city walls and you could see the like. The Citadel in the middle and it's like. it's still there the remains of it. um the um like up in nuristan. which is a super interesting part of. Afghanistan it's it's like the Northeast. part of the country and it's a region.

that wasn't even converted to Islam. until the end of the 19th century oh. like it's you you can make the analogy. of they're like The Basque in Spain. right it's like this mountainous region. that kind of was able to. retain like its cultural and linguistic. identity because of the terrain like it. was more defendable so nuran was like. that as well and so they were. finally forcibly converted to Islam into. the 19th. century and before that they were called.

kiristan which is like land of the. Infidel and then once they underwent the. conversion process they became nuran. which is land of the enlightened oh wow. yeah but it's it's such an interesting. place I I I liked it a lot because it. reminded me of home where I grew up CU. you have like Alpine Forest it it looks. like yede like like if they could ever. have peace there they could have like a. trekking industry um you know ecotourism.

whatever like White River Rafting down. the kunar river like is is gorgeous and. there there was places where in. Afghanistan where I was like I could be. home on the Olympic Peninsula right now. wow like mountains Alpine Forest yeah. there's the old. Citadel that's incredible. yeah I had no idea this stuff was there. yeah the history of Afghanistan is so. fascinating and so spectacular and so.

like the futility of trying to conquer. that place and control that place it. it's going to be what it's going to be. and yeah like. uh you're you're not going to change it. you know you're not going to westernize. it it's not going to. happen did you've like it's it's so. crazy that we were there for so long. it's a 20year war would you have ever. imagined that while you were there no.

like if you would have told me um. September 10th 2001 like oh yeah we're. getting ready to be in a 20-year war in. in the Middle East and Central Asia I. would have been like no [ __ ] way. that's that's just not going to happen. you know and then. boom what did it what was it like to you. when we pulled out of it finally um on. the one hand it was like a relief it's. like you know enough already it's like. we're obviously not fixing that place.

you know it's doubtful we we could fix. it um I think it would have been clever. to hold on to bogram and maintain a. strike force there to to put out fires. so to speak but other than that like let. it be what it's going to be you know and. like protect us interests as needed but. you know we we're not going to change. that place it's. so it's so crazy that we didn't learn.

from the Russian invasion we didn't. learn from the Russians battle in the. mujahadin and which we supported MH. which is it's so strange that everyone. makes the same mistakes or the British. or the or the Greeks you know it's like. the the the the Greek foothold there. lasted you know what a hundred years. like so historically that's nothing. right yeah just like is there's no place. like it on Earth in that regard just.

like because of the terrain because of. the the people and the religion and the. just the the the way it's controlled. areas are controlled by Warlords yeah. it's all tribal it's all and that that's. the way. they politically that's the way they. govern themselves and that's just the. you know and it's it's not even an. evaluative statement it's like yeah it's. not Western Stock. but okay you. know what what are you going to do you. know they they got to at some point as.

long as they're not impinging. upon it's a I guess I have a very. libertarian perspective like you know if. if they don't [ __ ] with us we shouldn't. [ __ ] with them right you know yeah. that's. um that's there's there's a futility in. trying to be the policeman of the world. and it's exhausting yeah you know and. and ultimately you're going to. fail you know you're you're going to. you're going to drain all your resources.

trying to manage something literally on. the other side of the planet to what end. right you know and then there's these. entities that are profiting off of that. futile attempt M which they would like. to continue that money flowing in so. they continue this this thing that. everybody knows you're eventually going. to have to stop yeah definitely it. turned into into an industry for sure. and were you aware of that while you. were there that that was there was no.

way out of. this I. mean. I I don't I guess I always suspected. that it would never. be like it wasn't going to be like hey. check this out democracy it's cool right. you know like I pretty much knew that. wasn't going to. fly um I I think the best I could hope. for this stability you know and that. didn't happen no you know there was uh.

some really bizarre moments after we. pulled out of Afghanistan where they. were interviewing the Taliban and. talking to them about women being in. control or women you know being in. government and whether or not they were. going to accept sort of this Western. idea of diversity and inclusion and they. were just [ __ ] laughing yeah yeah. yeah it's it's absurd to them yeah you. know just just like the other side of. the coin is absurd to us you so how do. you bridge that Gap especially when.

you're dealing with the the history of. the place that the you know hundreds of. years hundreds and hundreds of years of. living that way the idea that we're. going to go in there with tanks and fix. it but we're going to force you to be. Democratic yeah it's like okay that's. not going to happen either and and also. the rampant corruption that exists in. the people that are in power you know. you're talking about all these mansions. and the selling of the heroin it's like.

what are you going to do how you going. to get those people to straighten out. mhm you're not yeah it's it's it's. ingrained it's it's it's cultural it's. maybe even more than cultural you know. was there a time when you were over. there like towards the end of your time. there where you were. recognizing the ftil futility of this. yeah I think big pictures yeah yeah but. again you're there to do a job so you. can't you can't do all in the negative.

you know and it's like you. you you you need to believe in the. mission you know and I believed in the. mission as far as. like myself and my teammates like we're. we're going to do what we have to do and. do it to the best of our ability and. everyone come home alive you know yeah. complete your task support your tribe. yeah yeah when how many year how long. were you over there for uh I did like.

four. rotations so I I I left the Army the. second time like 2007 when I was um. basically went back to. school what was it like to make that. transition from being over there in one. of the most bizarre Wars we've ever been. a part of and then going back back to. school and going back to civilized. society and going back to Western. culture uh again I think just my.

disposition I I tend to just go with. things you have a very unusual. disposition really I don't know like uh. I think four out of five ex-girlfriends. pulled would suggest uh I'm good at. compartmentalizing. things four out of five what about the. fifth U no I'm guessing. um no it's just I I made the transition. I thought well it's like okay cool I'm.

in school like now now working on this. chapter you know why do you think some. people struggle so much and you were. able to sort of uh at least fairly. smoothly make that. transition I don't have the answer to. that I don't know did you have friends. is. struggled um I think I mean most of my. friends from the military are are soft. guys yeah and I think in general like. they're adaptable you know that's I.

think that's kind of a soft soft Special. Operation Soldier criteria is you need. to be flexible and adaptable and and and. quick on your feet like that and more. resilient they're more resilient human. beings I I would think so yeah yeah I. would think so too at least my. experience with them the um I've had. conversations with uh. Special Forces guys where explain where. they explained to me the reason why less. of them experien um the kind of PTSD.

that some of the other guys had and they. said because we were proactive we. weren't reactive we were going and doing. things it wasn't like we're sitting. around waiting to be attacked and some. of the guys that are sitting around. waiting to be attacked the anxiety of. that was kind of. overwhelming I could see that yeah if. you're just sitting on a fob like. waiting for that rocket attack yeah yeah. and so you come back in 2007 and you.

decided you're done that's it yeah so I. was at a at another Crossroads and it. was like I I can reinlist. or I can go to university so I I. applied a friend of mine in New York was. like you're pretty smart you should. apply to Columbia. and I was. like I I would never get accepted there. you know that's that's not going to. happen and so almost as a a joke I.

applied to Columbia and I applied to. Seattle University as well um only two. two schools I applied to um and ended up. getting accepted to. both. and so with the Columbia thing it was. like. um okay am I going to step up to the. challenge or. you. know go I mean not necessarily the. easier route but maybe the more. comfortable route which would have been.

Seattle. U um and I I went for Colombia it's like. okay challenge accepted you. know and what did you study in Colombia. philosophy um a lot of money in. philosophy I don't know I don't know if. you knew that I heard it's right up. there with gender studies. yeah she like some coffee yeah.

please Cheers. Cheers um so how much time did you do. there so they they accepted a lot of my. Olympic college credits. shockingly um and they accepted my my. military language school for my language. requirement um so I basically had to do. three years there to finish my undergrad. and then you went to graduate school as. well uh I had a a break but yeah ended.

up uh going to graduate school um. 201 16 maybe and what do you do now so. now I mostly do. uh yacht delivery yacht delivery yeah. sailboats oh wow. yeah and was that like. how did that come about so there's a. story there. okay okay um let me organize this real.

quick in my. head like. 2014 like okay so I finished my. undergrad um I was now holder of an IV. League degree like much to my. chagrin and I went through uh a personal. crisis that was was pretty bad um oh it. was almost up there with like the sound. garden personal. crisis um and so I kind of did a similar.

thing where it's like okay I need to. take some time off you know to do um. some work on myself you know and so how. that. translated was I'd always been really. interested in. Argentina as a as a country and as a. place so I I got a flat in in Buenos. Iris and went and lived there for a. couple months and kind of did. this deep period of introspection but.

during this. time um before I left a good friend of. mine suggested this book called Dove. written by a man named Robin Lee. Graham and so he's like he's like hey I. just read this book you should read it I. think you'd really dig. it and uh I didn't even know what it was. about so um I found a used copy and took. with me down there and read it and so. it's it's the story I don't know if. you've even heard of this this story of. Robin Graham but he.

did I think he started 1967 he did a a. solo. circumnavigation in a sailboat that took. him about five years to do but he at the. time he was the youngest person to ever. do that he started when he was like. 15 and it it was like it got a lot of. press like National Geographic covered. it I think he's been on the of National. Geographic like three times H and so. it's an interesting account his solo.

circumnavigation um took him five years. uh along the way he met this woman Patty. like like this young you know pretty. hippie chick like somewhere in the South. Pacific and they fell in love and like. got married and she would kind of meet. him in different spots as he finished. the. circumnavigation and then the book ends. um he returns to Los Angeles uh. circumnavigation. complete um and I'm I'm like super. cynical like going okay what happened.

now you know and I'm like I bet that. marriage didn't it last you know because. after something I I guess I equated it. to like a a war zone romance or. something you know where you're kind of. in this super heightened. environment so if you bring it back to. just normal life like does it survive. like is like what made it interesting or. exciting or whatever you know do do you. kind of get back to reality and it's. like H you know you're not that. interesting or whatever right um so yeah.

I'm super cynical like that Mar should. it last whatever so but then I started. doing some internet research on on Robin. Graham and turns out he wrote like a. second book um called um the Sailor. returns from the sea or something like. that so what what had happened. um and he did go through kind of a dark. period after the circum. navigation um that I I won't get into I.

bet he told me about it. personally so he and. Patty in like the early 1970s so they. get back from like five years you know. sailing the world basically um it's pre-. interet pre the communication that we. have now so obviously 1965 to 1970 was a. pretty turbulent period in like American. history and so Robin essentially missed. all that and he gets back to the States.

and was it a Stanford I think Stanford. offered him like a full ride scholarship. so he went for a semester and basically. couldn't deal with all these Lefty. professors and like I'm out of here and. so he and Patty loaded up uh like bought. like a mail truck I think loaded up all. their stuff and and went to Montana and. homesteaded in Montana like super old. school like 19th century Homestead wow.

and so I'm doing this research and it's. like oh Callis Bell. Montana um my buddy Mike from ranger. battalion lives in Callis Bell Montana. so I'm in my flat in in. buar and I email Mike I'm like hey dude. you know a guy in Callis Bell named. Robin Graham like 30 minutes later I get. an email it's like yeah I saw him in. Costco. yesterday it's like no [ __ ] way and. so hey can you can you do like an email. introduction for me and he's like yeah.

and. so you know fast forward to. today um I'm very happy and proud to. call Robin and Patty friends you know. like uh amazing human beings like so. cool and so the sailing thing to bring. it. back like reading Dove and like getting. to know Robin stuff I started getting. interested in in. sailing and like I I you know I live in.

Western washingt on puget sound like. it's it's a very nautical culture and I. I've worked on boats in Alaska and. actually come from kind of a nautical. family on my father's side like they all. worked on tugboats in on the Columbia. River um like uh my grandfather my dad. my uncles um my dad was a commercial. fisherman in Alaska like ran his own. boat for decades. and so it seemed like kind of a natural. thing like I've always been attracted to. boats in the water so I started started. looking you know did the Practical thing.

started looking for a. sailboat and I I found one for sale that. was about 10 miles from my house but I. knew nothing about sailboats so I'm like. pinging people I know who do know stuff. about sailboats I'm like hey is this. boat any good you know you know look at. the pictures look at the the year and. the design and everything so was a 1986. know Sunrise. 34 Sloop and like all these people are. like yeah it's a good boat it's a good. boat like yeah and the price is right so.

I'm I'm watching it and the price kept. dropping it kept dropping and then it. got low enough where it's like it was. kind of in my. realm so I contacted the broker and like. actually went down and looked at the. boat like did did a walk. through and I was like so is the taking. offers on this and he's just like yeah. make one and so I went I had some. deployment money saved up and I had I I.

could pile up about 17 grand and so at. the time so I offered 177,000 and like. half hour later it's like you got a boat. wow so. um that that was the beginning of my my. personal you know sailing ad Adventures. did you live on it nope my folks did. that for a while when they retired um my. mom and my stepdad decided to live on a. sailboat they flew around the keys and.

they went down to the Bahamas they just. decided to just live on a boat for a. while until my mom got bored with it. yeah my mom was like let's go to [ __ ]. place this is ridiculous but I think it. was a a very um educational and. U an enlightening experience to just. live in nature on the. for a while you know that's very uh. that's a you know Wanderlust appeal to a.

lot of people to just get on a boat and. live on a boat and wake up and have. coffee on the ocean just exist out there. yeah I I bought the boat with the. intent at least the vague intent of. doing a circumnavigation of my own just. yeah because it seems like such a like. what appeals to me about sailing is. I mean outside of like electronic. navigational. AIDS it's the same as it's always been.

it's like you and the boat and and the. Sea and and the wind and you know you. got to make it. work. and there's something like really. like when you actually get out on the. water and you got the sails up and. you're on a good Tack and and the boat's. doing its thing it's it's an awesome. feeling it's like I'm not going to quite. say it's Primal cuz obviously homed on. the Savannah didn't have sailboat but.

it's it's close to that it's obviously. very appealing I mean people love to do. it they the and the sailboat thing is. like that's like the the highest level. of expression of nautical experience for. a lot of people yeah I think like being. a true sailor is like sailing yeah you. know and like even at the uh at the Navy. Academy at Annapolis like the the. incense they put them on sailboats to to.

teach them to be Sailors you know like. on that very fundamental level and it's. it's like anything else it's like like. being a a soldier or a musician. or like I think you have to master the. fundamentals cuz if you if you suck at. the fundamentals you're going to suck at. everything else so I've always focused. on fundamentals I mean mainly because. I'm I'm not naturally good at anything.

really like I've always had to. try and. so in the support of in the service of. trying to be good at something I've. always focused on the fundamentals and. and trying to master them and hopefully. just have a a good foundation I mean. that's one thing that was like unique. about growing up as like a soldier in. ranger battalion cuz range Battalion is. like super like regiments a unique. animal like even within the military. even within the soft Community it's it's.

it's its own thing. culturally. and they always stress the fundamentals. and you. know it it's like being a private in in. Ranger regiment is it's not easy but the. fact that it's hard um I I would. think makes you a better. Soldier because there's no there's like. ncos and Ranger regimen.

don't they don't tolerate uh anything. less than 100% you know and I if if you. bring anything less than 100% you're. going to find out really quick and you. usually in a way that's not. pleasant and. so I think having that Foundation. uh as a ranger private I mean I'm not. going to say I'm I'm any kind of amazing. Soldier but I think it made me the best.

soldier that I could be for sure and I. I'll always look back at regiment as. like being a very key event in my life. like my time there well I think that any. particularly difficult Endeavor. strengthens your resolve and basically. everything you do in life and when. you're forced to do something that's. very very hard to do it just changes who. you are at you know at a foundational.

level yeah I think it's that that. punctuated equilibrium that I referenced. earlier it's like you need you need that. traumatic event to be a catalyst for. growth yeah you know these big events in. life that change the progression of the. rest of your life and then you look back. and go wow what what would have happened. if not for that moment or if not for. that experience mhm so did you decide. not to circumnavigate the globe um I.

mean that's like a huge. Endeavor um it would take I think at a. minimum a year and like I don't know. when the last time you had a free year I. don't have any time like like even the. first year of Co it was like and it was. the most free time I probably had in my. adult life and it was still like not a. lot you know so it's it's something I. yeah I would still love to do it I think. being able to go like there's islands in. the in the South.

Atlantic or even in the Pacific. that they don't have an airport the only. way you're going to get there is by boat. you know and that I think that'd be. really cool to see like some some of. kind of the last like you can't say. unexplored but kind of the last like. remote places on the planet I would also. Imagine You would meet some very. fascinating people that are also doing. that. mhm yeah I think so too yeah so like the. the sailing like kind of the the 50.

meter Target right now with sailing is. have you ever heard of Race To Alaska no. so it's this Adventure Race kind of a. quirky Adventure Race um that's based. back home where I. live and it's a it's a a boat race from. Port Towns in Washington to ketchican. Alaska and there's really only one. cardinal rule and there's a lot of other. rules but they they're pretty much deal. with like safety at se and things like.

that but the kind of the one cardinal. rule of the race is no motor like the. vessel has to be either wind powerered. human powered but no internal combustion. or electric. engines so how long is that Journey um I. I think generally you could do it in a. week about 750 Mi so they changed the. rules last year where so before you. could only go up the Inside passage like.

the the east side of Vancouver Island. and it's it's very um constrained. waterways and like currents always an. issue because. a a lot of like there's pretty big Tides. up there like like a 12 foot tide in. that part of the country is normal you. know and so you get these big tides and. constrained waterways and they turn into. Rivers so if you don't hit the current. right hit the tide right you know it's. you're going to have to Anchor up. somewhere and just wait for the tide to.

change so there's those challenges but. anyway they changed the rules last year. where you could go up the Pacific side. like just just go up the straight on to. fuka hang a right and just go up the. Pacific so that's what I intend to do. because you'll you'll have good win. pretty much the whole time um it'd be a. little sloppier but you're not you're. not going to deal with the ties and. currents you're not going to deal with. the the ship traffic in the Inside. passage you're not going to deal with. like floating logs that you can hit at. night like there there's all these like.

things that make it less appealing to me. for sure what do you do at night in. those circumstances it's pitch black. outside you have no motor. so I got a crew of. three so the the the team is called. super nautiloid it's like a it's a. reference to my favorite Black Sabbath. record like did a logo and everything so. right now in the process of refitting. the boat. and so it's it's a pretty big project so.

right now everything's going okay like. trying to raise money like set up a. GoFundMe page um through the super naid. site in order to um fill the gaps you. know financially because it is a pretty. big project um been doing most of the. work myself so. far but yeah the team of four um it's me. two other veterans um one friend from. ranger battalion one friend from SF and. then I got a buddy from my the Seattle.

Rock days uh Barrett Martin who was the. drummer for The Screaming Trees and he. he's played in a few other bands and. he's actually a Grammy award-winning. producer um like super interesting guy. actually you dig him you should have him. on the show he's he's also an. ethnomusicologist so he's he's gone down. to PR and recorded um the like shapo. Shaman like icaros oh the iasa.

songs and he's doing a record now like a. called Deep Amazon where the concept is. he has all these EOS that's he he. recorded down in in Peru and then he's. bringing in various musicians to. accompany these uh icaros on guitar. whatever instrument so like I I play. play on it uh Kim and Matt from s garden. play on it Peter Buck from RM plays on. it so it's kind of this interesting cast.

of characters um supporting the shipibo. icaros so the record comes out October I. guess and any profits that are made are. going to go back to the tribe so it's. kind of cool that is cool yeah so how. much time have youve been spending. sailing that you're interested in doing. this have you dedicated a lot of your. time to that like like uh is as much. free time as I can I love getting out on. the boat um getting the sails up and. just just going.

um I I like even just like sleeping on. the boat like when my boat uh was mored. um at this one Marino close to my house. is that your boat that's my boat getting. hauled out. wow a real sail boat so the the boat. name is funny so remember when I was. talking about uh koala macome m MH so. the needs bottom paint bad that's on the. on the to-do list but.

um I'd modified the name if I ever had a. daughter to uh G. Alexandra so it's a name that at once is. beautiful and strong so that was a. concept but like you know I'm probably. never going to have a daughter so do you. have kids no no kids yeah no no wife no. Ex-Wives no kids wow yeah I just skate. through life. without I don't know I. mean it I guess it wasn't.

planned I mean maybe on a subconscious. level just due to my. childhood I I probably avoided it. subconsciously yeah a lot of people do. yeah yeah a lot of people with traumatic. childhoods or unpleasant childhoods they. say I don't want to bring that on. anybody else yeah cuz you associate what. childhood is and what you know being a. parent is with what you experienced you. know you don't think there's a another. way to do it you know but I've had I've.

had friends who'd be like oh you'd be an. awesome dad and I'm like bet you would I. don't know man yeah and then I don't. like going down that road and then it. turns out like oh I do suck like you you. you know you talked about your. flexibility you'd adjust you'd get. better at it it's a it's a strange. experience it's very psychedelic. do you have kids yeah okay I have three. daughters having children is um it. seeing a little person and in engaging.

with them and having them grow with you. and and learning about life and in a lot. of ways it gives you a chance to do it. the right way you know like you think. about what's happened to you and you. learn from that and you know you learn. from your mistakes and raising them and. you learn how to communicate with little. people or are just sort of growing and. learning it's very. educational it's very fascinating it's. um it just changes you fundamentally as.

a human being it changes everything. about you I could imagine like because. again going back to just The. evolutionary thing you're kind of. fulfilling your mission yes as as an. organism it it in that way like it it. really does speak to your DNA there's. something about it but it's also it's. like Dave Chappelle said this to me once. it's a great quote he. said becoming a father didn't just. change the amount of love that I have it. changed my capacity for love MH and I.

think that's it's very. accurate but you. know some people their demons don't line. up with that endeavor you know their. whatever it is in their life doesn't. line up with it and they don't make. those adjustments because you're going. to have to adjust you're going to have. to change your priorities you. you change who you are you change how. you think about people it's what's. fascinating with me. is I always felt about people that they.

were these static things like you know I. met Mike he's 70 That's Mike he's always. been 70 and then you have children and. raise children and see them grow from. the time they're little baby to a person. who's having a conversation with you. that you go to dinner with you go to the. movies with. and you know all their life experiences. and the the good ones and the bad ones. and it's just I look at people now like.

babies I look at everybody like they're. a b it's very weird I I go wonder what. you were like as a baby cuz you you. obviously got to this point from being I. I see in my mind or at least I Envision. this journey now to get to who you are. now I give people a lot more slack. because of it a lot more I'm so much. more. charitable with people and their. behavior and their attitudes because of. that because I realize that a lot of. what life is is determinism it's not.

just who Free Will and who you are a lot. of is the experiences that were thrust. upon you and how you had to react to. those experiences and what you're were. taught and who you're you know you know. I have friends with horrible parents and. that that battle to deal with these. [ __ ] that raised you is like. it's like a constant thing in the their. life that they never quite get past you. know and I was very fortunate that um my. mom when she married my stepdad they're.

very close and they've been close most. of my life um so I've. experienced bad and then I've also. experienced like what it's like when a. relationship works and when people are. kind to each other and get along. together and it's like so you you you. realize like there's adjustments that. everyone can make in this life to make. the path smoother MH to make it. more just you know more harmonious.

but I really it really changed how I. think about humans like not just like my. humans but all humans like everyone that. I meet I really I really think of them. as babies it's very. strange but I think it's kind of I I. sort of decided to think that way. because I was recognizing like the way. kids like sort of adopt your thoughts on. things and my kids talk a lot of [ __ ].

they're very funny because in my house. we talk a lot of [ __ ] we're always. making fun of things making fun of each. other and there's a lot of laughs. because you know that's what I do I'm a. comedian and to see my kids talk [ __ ]. and say funny things it's like oh my God. I know where you got that. from it's very obvious but it's it's. also they're very kind too which is very. that makes me very proud you it's very. very nice to to be able to raise.

children in an environment where when. they get older you you see them. expressing the values that you. appreciate and you think are important. M yeah I could see and I thought not too. late yeah I I guess that's the probably. still got some swimmers in there the. advantage of having the the XY. chromosome yeah it is a big Advantage. you know for women um you know and I. know women that forgot to have kids I. mean I say it that way they didn't. forget to have kids but you know in our.

modern Western World when people prepare. um for their life they prepare for what. Society has established as the path that. is um the most celebrated which is. financial success and uh a career that. is. something not just that you would be. proud of but that someone would respect. you know like this is Debbie she's a.

lawyer you know and she uh she's a. partner at her firm like oh Debbie's. happy and then you meet Debbie you're. like oh Debbie's miserable you know she. she's very successful but that it's not. harmonious it's not she's not happy and. that's you know it's so hard when you're. in the middle of it and you're thinking. so much about how other people view you. and for a lot of people for whatever. reason they grew up in a way that they. didn't either they didn't get the.

respect that they deserved or they were. taught that the only way to get respect. or the only way to be appreciated or to. not feel like a failure is to be. financially successful but some of the. biggest failures that I know are. financially successful some of the. biggest messes of a life that I know are. people that on paper are winners mhm and. they're not they're just a disaster and. they're they're filled with nonsense and. they you know they don't value human. experiences and love and camaraderie and.

creativity and education and. just just extracting the most fun and. the most satisfying life out of this. experience instead they're you know. they're concentrating on money you know. they they want to talk to you about. numbers and expansion and you know are. you investing and I have a business I'd. like you to be a part of and there's a. this and that and I was. like and you don't realize that it's.

goingon to [ __ ] end man and you don't. realize it I think sometimes until. someone Close to You does die and then. you go oh this is so temporary and I'm. not enjoying this process at all and one. of the things that I'm getting out of. talking to you is that you have sought. out. these not these. difficult but educational. experiences and that's what makes. someone fascinating that's what makes. someone cool to talk to you know the the.

path of the the most boring people to. talk to or the people that are just. thinking about making money they're so. [ __ ] boring it's so brutal talking to. them is that just they they have this. very narrow thing that they're obsessed. with and that thing gives them social. status when someone sees them it's like. oh there's bill the millionaire oh you. know he's got he owns this company and. there this and that and Bill's right. about to have a [ __ ] heart attack. he's like got very little time left and.

doesn't even realize and he's taking out. of all day to try to keep up and you. know doing cocaine and cheating on his. wife and [ __ ] flying on Jets. everywhere and it looks on paper like. he's the man but meanwhile he's a. disaster and there's a lot of people. like that yeah I I agree with you I. think I was fortunate enough to start. figuring out that stuff at a relatively. young age. where I made the shift and I I think.

it's a very human thing to want external. validation yes you know it's like but. we're we're social creatures we're these. tribal creatures like we want the other. people in the tribe to you. know go yeah mhm. but I think the the internal validation. at least for me where like basically and. I don't mean this like in a a malignant. way but like when you kind of stop.

caring what other people think about. you and focus more on what you think. about yourself like for me that was like. a huge shift like a huge like like. giving up like doing things that. like I thought that other people would. think was cool you know right that's. what a lot of people do right that's. what a lot of us do and I certainly have. been guilty of that in my life oh every. we all have like I have too like it's. it's human it's not and it's not that.

big a dig and and maybe there's a a. balance but then it's like as soon as I. figured out like like that internal. validation was meant everything to me. and the external was just it was fluff. you know yeah it it was this vapid thing. that at the end of the day wasn't. satisfying at all there's some. satisfaction the respect to people that. you respect yeah for sure yeah when you. you see this person's an exceptional. person and they enjoy being with you. you're like oh maybe I'm okay and like.

going I mean there's actually a couple. things I'd like to go back to like what. you were talking about and one was like. uh like the in reference to parents like. I don't maybe I'll view them as babies. now but like as soon as I you know it's. probably my late 20s where I started. like viewing them as as human beings and. like imperfect creatures like we all are. and like like all of a sudden I had all. this empathy for them you know yeah and.

um there's a quote and I think it's. attributed to Plato but I I don't think. it it's him I think it's more of like a. 19 century thing but it goes something. like be kind for everyone is fighting. their own battle and so like I I I apply. that to like people I apply it to myself. you know it's like I'm definitely. fighting my battles still yeah you know. I'm figuring some [ __ ] out but it's not. over I'm sure I'm sure it never will be. it never will be yeah I don't I don't. imagine it ever is but you know the.

process is interesting and and obviously. breakthroughs are. interesting. um but the oh what was the other. point yeah just the empathy uh for. others uh working on yourself like there. there's an evil con evil quote and I'm. going to have to paraphrase because I. can't remember it exact exactly but he's. like you know when I was young I cared. about what other people thought but now. that I'm old I just care about what I. think like and it's like it's kind of. the same thing it's like yeah and yeah.

obviously I care what other people at. least the people I care about I I want. them to think that I'm a decent person. right sure you know that's normal yeah. and and again going back to another. thing you're talking about is like the. most important thing in my life these. days you know uh our personal. relationships yeah it's um like I'm at. the point now where I'm you know and I'm. I'm sure you do the same thing um you. you curate your tribe right yes and like.

these relationships are like so. rewarding and so honestly that's where I. extract the most Joy my life from is is. these personal relationships yeah that's. the what I'm most protective of too most. protective of those people but also. protective of not allowing anyone else. in the tribe that I don't think you have. to curate the tribe yeah you have to be. very careful about that because I know. so many people that have been involved. in friendships and relationships with. people that are just disastrous and they.

it's like a drowning person you try to. help them and you drown too you know. some people just will [ __ ] drag you. in and other people's they they'll. Elevate you MH and you know it's. obviously not they're not perfect. experiences we're all human but but. through even mistakes and then the. reconciling of those mistakes and the. communication through that it's a an. educational experience for everybody.

involved and everyone's sort of on the. same sort of path in in the sense where. you're trying to be a better version of. who you are you're trying to be a better. person and you know that might be being. a better parent or being a better friend. or being a better artist or whatever. whatever it is you're trying to do but. it really benefits you to be around. other people that are also trying to do. that thing too because you know one of. the beautiful things about um for me.

about having this podcast is being able. to communicate with so many interesting. people and being able to have these. conversations like we're having right. now where I get to you know just met you. today you know but get a sense of your. journey and your life and I think about. it through your eyes and through your. perspective and and it educates me and I. think it educates a lot of the people. that are listening and it'll resonate. with them like oh I kind of see where. this guy's coming from and it all it. just expands our landscape of of.

understanding yeah I mean that's. ultimately we're try trying like the. word harmonious I've used it too many. times probably but that's really what it. is like you just you're not it's not. going to be great all the time but it's. you want it to be as harmonious as. possible and you want to enjoy as much. of it as possible absolutely yeah and. some sometimes like with you and what. you did it's like embracing things that. are really [ __ ] difficult and through. that you get an understanding of.

yourself that's really not available to. someone who doesn't go through. struggle that's the intent for sure. like yeah with with no again it's that. punctuated equilibrium if there's not a. a traumatic a stressor say m you're not. you're not going to grow yeah you're. just going to Flatline and. like maybe there's no negativity there. but there's also no positivity right. you're just dull and I think that's the. problem with a lot of people today and.

why they're medicated is that they're. they're not experiencing life in a way. that seems to resonate with them in a. positive manner it just not doesn't seem. right seems it seems shitty and. depressing you know I had this. conversation with a buddy of mine the. other day where he was talking about. stages of his life where he was very. depressed and we came to this conclusion. but but during that time your life. sucked and now your life is pretty cool. and of course you're happier and that.

seems so simplistic to some people but a. lot of the I mean there's without a. doubt there's clinical depression. there's people that have something wrong. there's an imbalance whether it's a a. physical imbalance or a life imbalance. or a trauma that they can't get over but. my friends that I know that have had. those dark moments in their life when. their life turned around now they're in. a great relationship now they have good. friends now they live in a good. Community those people are [ __ ]. happier they they they're doing a thing.

that they want to do with their life. those people are happier and that's a. thing that we we have. this this sort of binary view of What. happiness is and for some people it's. like oh I need to get on an SSRI I need. need to get on a this or that or I need. to do something I need to you know to. some sort of chemical intervention to.

straighten out my head that's not always. the case like sometimes it's just you. got to get through that and come out on. the other side and figure out what is. the process of becoming a more fulfilled. person what's the process of living a. harmonious life like how do I do that. like how what what is the thing and I. think we get a lot of the answers to. that from talking to people and from. listening to people talk about it and. then from trying things and learning and. and growing and that's something we're.

not that's not dis it's not a like a. public narrative it's not something. that's being discussed it's not. something that's drilled in the kids. heads like you you're going to go. through some [ __ ] but you got to trust. in this process and you got to have you. have to have a guidelines in your mind. of what you want to do you have to have. ethics and morals you have enough to. have compassion for other people because. if you think it's all about you you're. never going to be happy you're never. ever going to be happy the narcissists. and the the people that are like deeply.

uh connected to their own wants and. needs they always get out of that. feeling Hollow and empty MH and you know. and those are the people that are you. know doing blow all the time and just. trying to find some sort of external. method of elevating their a diversion. yeah okay if I do this I'm I'm not going. to think about the important stuff. exactly exactly yeah like the whole I've. always been intrigued by the the the.

Greek or ancient Greek notion of like. human flourishing like a the the Greeks. called it udonia and it's this. this being you know endeavoring to be. the best that you can be whatever that. is and it's it's not talking about. vocation or. or external stuff but you you as a. person like figuring out I mean. everything we've been talking about like. figuring out what brings you Joy um.

applying yourself and it's it's hard you. know it's like if if it were easy and. I've had this discussion with other. friends where you know about human. flourishing and stuff and like and this. this is going to sound a little bit. negative but I think there's a lot of. people who can't be bothered you know. who are fully capable of flourishing if. they applied themselves right and for. whatever reason just it's easier to do. this I think they also don't have the. tools like they never like you got to.

think about like your life at a young. age you sort of sought out those. Journeys when you can and some people. they don't develop those tools they fall. into a system that's very UNS serving. for them whether it's a system of you. know getting an education then you have. student debt student loan debt and then. so you have to get a job and then you. get a job that pays well because you. have to pay off that debt and then you. buy a house so now you have a mortgage. and you have a family so now you have. responsibilities and you have all these. things but most of your day is spent.

doing something you absolutely don't. want to do but is also not rewarding. there's a lot of things you don't want. to do but when you do them you're like. God damn I'm glad I did that yeah very. few people who are doing a 9 to5 or. longer job that they don't want to do. have that feeling they're just just a. lot of you know it's like that thorough. quote most men live lives of quiet. desperation yeah that is so [ __ ] true. MH and unless you find.

something that is satisfying and. something that elevates you something. that with these experiences you gain. insight as to why you think and what you. think and what what is good about these. experiences with other human beings and. if you don't you just become this fever. minded capitalist where you just are. constantly chasing numbers because it's.

rewarded by society that external. validation that you get from driving a. Mercedes that thing that you get from. having a nice house where people drive. by and go look at that car house yeah. someone you don't even know yeah like. that that's important to you what that. person thinks sure I me that's what a. lot of people like right they like to. wear jewelry and look flashy so when. they show up everybody goes wow look at. him look at her look at them you know. wow they got the thing they got that. those sneakers that I can't buy they got.

that [ __ ] that watch that I can't. wear look at those glasses those are. expensive you know like we live in this. bizarre Society where that is rewarded. or at least highlighted so often in so. many people's lives like that's what. you're seeing it's like how they sell. things in Billboards and on. commercials and you know we don't. realize that that's is not going to. bring you the joy that you're looking. for or you get that short-term fix but. it evaporates instantly and it's like.

you're constantly chasing the dragon. yeah yeah well that's the thing it's. like we I was I was reading about this. Russian oligarch that uh they They. confiscated his yacht and he's got this. one yacht that's [ __ ] insane They. confiscated now he's got this second. yacht that's just as Preposterous maybe. even more so that operates on massive. batteries so it can literally drive as. silent as a Tesla it's you know [ __ ]. hundreds of feet long and like that's. that that world that you get into like.

of constantly keeping up with the. Joneses and all the other people it's. like it never ends it never ends you get. to the highest levels of it all and it. never ends it's a series of false. Summits it's like I've arrived oh wait a. minute no I haven't yeah that's a great. way to put it a series of false Summits. it's all Illusions it's all. Mirage yeah and then one day he's dead. mhm that's it and then all the people. around that guy was a [ __ ].

[ __ ] and that's a [ __ ] disaster to. die a multi-billionaire who was a. [ __ ] [ __ ] who everybody hated it's. so strange so much wasted potential yeah. but there's so many people that are just. chasing it I saw this image of rert. Murdoch with his his wife and um he was. on the be and he literally looks like an. alien he he's just he's just like these. bones and tissue and fat and he's with.

this woman and they were supposed to get. married and it didn't work out and he. was but he one of the things he was. saying he's he's in his 90s it like I. don't know which wife he's on right but. he was. saying that um I'm looking forward to. spending the second half of my life with. her like hey bro what do you know that I. don't. know you got about a month left you know. I mean if everything goes great you. might have eight years if everything.

goes great but no one thinks about that. while you're in the middle of it all. you're thinking about is you know. keeping that [ __ ] game going that. thing that's gotten you all that those. accolades that thing that's gotten you. all those that respect and it's just. numbers just dopamine hits like it's. like in your social media forever for. the to the End of Time checking the. likes on your [ __ ] Instagram post to. the end of time it's like it's empty and. that's the path that so many people are.

on you know I just don't understand it. I'll never understand it but I get it. you know I I get how you could get. sucked into that path yeah I totally. understand the mechanism yeah the. mechanism yeah and it's just like it's. like it hijacks the human reward systems. of you being like the leader of the. tribe but the leader of the tribe used. to be the wise old Warrior who had made. the mistakes and and proven his. character and his medal and combat in. and in life and and had wisdom to impart.

on the others and could lead the tribe. in a way that it could help these people. and protect them that just doesn't exist. anymore we it's been hijacked by this. system of monetary gain and it's [ __ ]. weird and obviously it's very easy for. me to say say as someone who gets. external Val external validation and. someone who makes money it's easier for. me to say because I've sort of removed. myself from the Hunger of that in a way.

so I can go oh okay I see what this is. even though I've never been very. motivated by money I've I've certainly. pursued it but it's also not been. anything that meant the most to me. money's Freedom that's the way I look at. it yes it's like it it it opens options. yes but like money for the sake of money. like forget it it it can allow you to. pursue things that make you happy but. you have to know what it is and it's not.

being taught you know like think about. the things that are being taught I mean. perhaps they teach it a little bit in. philosophy but most of the time if you. trying to get an education you try to. get an education to get a job MH I mean. that's the way it's geared towards now. yeah it's not like the the ancient. Greeks where education was like here's. how you live a a good and virtuous life. yeah you know but the people that I've. talked to that are the most boring are. the ones that are just pursuing money.

the people that I've talked to that are. most fascinating are the ones that are. trying to figure it out and they're. they're they've accumulated a lot of. lessons and a lot of information and. they could talk about things and and I. can get something out of that. conversation like I can go oh I see how. this guy thinks oh I see how we got. there life's so profoundly weird but. it's just so cool it's very you know or. it sucks depending on where you are and. what you're stuck in you know and some. of it is beyond your control some of it. is determinism some of it is your.

environment some of it is a shitty roll. of the dice and you're working in a. Cobalt mine in the Congo and there's a. lot of that to it but and some people. they transcend that they figure their. way out of that and it's this the. hardest. Journey yeah it's like like the the. money thing like I'm there's been a. couple occasions where like I've had. people reach out to me I don't know 20. 20 years ago like a friend of mine from. the music days was like.

hey there's this Nirvana record that. came out it's like a collection of bides. and bits and pieces that the I guess the. label put out to to make some money and. they're like hey you you play on a. couple of songs you're probably owed. some money and I'm like I started. thinking about it and I'm like uh uh. like hire an attorney like what sue the. label sue the band and. like no right it's for money that I'm.

sure is not life-changing and even if it. even if it was the process just made me. so tired that it was like and then then. more recently something similar happened. with sound Gard like someone close to. the band said hey there's a sound garden. box sets that are out and you play on a. couple of the songs like you probably. owed some money and same thing it's. like no I'm not I'm I'm not even going. to start down that path yeah cuz even if. it did make you money would probably rob. you of some happiness oh just let it go.

it's like you know it's like n i mean I. guess it's it kind of sucks that like. whoever like the bean counters at the. label are like H [ __ ] that guy you know. but okay yeah you know that's fine I. I'll be all right you got something from. that no matter what you you can't put it. in you know a bank account but it's what. you got from that is invaluable it's. like you were there you you have that it.

changed you as a person yeah it's like. that that. experience yeah it's a it's a I mean at. this point it's not a huge component of. who I am but it was. definitely necessary steps on on this. journey. and I'm glad I'm so things turned out. the way they did you know like I never. look back and go I wish you. know I was this like Rich rock guy and. on so many levels I'm glad that I didn't.

a lot of those guys are miserable oh. yeah yeah I I know a few I know a few. too that's the saddest thing in the. world it's when you you meet a miserable. success even rock stars even someone. who's an artist right and for so so many. of them they're only happy when they're. on top and it's not even even. necessarily happy it's like Euphoria MH. there's like a thing about it like oh my. God I'm the [ __ ] man you know look at. me I got the long hair and the [ __ ].

guitar and everybody loves me and. just yeah it's almost a trap it's almost. like a gilded cage that you're you're a. part of like look at. me yeah it yeah it. just like it would be cool to have that. Financial Security. and then do something totally different. right you know yeah it's it's also a. trap in you know the Trap Of Fame it's. like you really it's hard to know people.

it's hard to get to know people because. everybody's approaching you in a very. alien way I mean that was when when I. was young and obviously not on that huge. level but that was kind of when I got. fired from sarden that was kind of part. of the crisis where I was like. it was easy to put on the identity of. like being the bass player for Sound. Garden right you know and like I was. like the deao cool guy sure you have a.

conversation with someone at dinner what. do you do I'm the Basse player for sound. you know like women would show interest. you know and I you know especially being. like a painfully shy young man that. awesome you know but then it was. like when I did have that taken away and. it did it did not knocked me for a loop. for a bit but it also helped me. recognize like oh I should just focus. on Jason the dude you know not not Jason.

the bass player for sound Garten right. and that's kind of that was kind of the. the slap in the face that kind of. brought me. around but you had to go through that. yeah yeah but that's the thing about. going through something that sucks like. when you get on the other end of it and. you achieve equilibrium you go okay. was actually probably good for me oh I I. wholeheartedly believe I came out the. other end better on on every level and.

like my I'm happier now at 55 than I've. ever been in my entire life and each. year gets better you know that's success. yeah so yeah exactly that's the way I. look at it yeah why did you want to do. this do what this podcast uh I'm going. to be honest to give my R2 AK size some. oxygen. your the race to Alaska oh okay but also. you know I'm a fan um I think the first. podcast I listened to you was the one. you did with James from Metallica oh.

that was great the beekeeping yeah so. cool yeah he's very cool he's an. interesting guy yeah I I I knew him a. little bit back in the day but. yeah the beekeeping stuff was. fascinating yeah that I got connected to. him through my friend Jim Brewer Jim. Brewer who's a long time he been my. friend for like 30 years comedian yeah. he opens for Metallica okay which is. hilarious cuz he's a giant Metallica fan. and he doesn't need to do that and I.

think they just offered it to him. because they're friends with him and. like he decided that' be a fun thing to. do and since he's such a Metallica fan. he speaks to those people it's not like. uh just a a regular comedian opening for. a band they're not interested in and the. crowd doesn't engage he talks about. Metallica and he material and Jim is one. of the most um prolific and interesting. guys that I know in terms of like his. standup like he can just Jim can like.

something can happen in the news today. and Jim can go on stage and do like 10. minutes on it and just rant and Rave and. and he's such a [ __ ] cartoonish. character he's so funny so watching him. open for Metallica is a [ __ ] hoot. it's so hilarious because he's in his. element and he's also a bril comedian. and just such a character and so he. reached out to me he's like hey man you. should have James Hatfield on he's. [ __ ] awesome [ __ ] be a great. podcast I was like let's do it let's do.

it you know so having him on was pretty. pretty cool yeah so that that was my my. gateway to your your show and that yeah. put the hooks in me it's like okay this. is good well thanks man appreciate it. I'm glad we did this too yeah me too so. let's tell everybody about your site so. maybe we can get that goal oh I mean it. we already talked about it well how do I. get to it like what is what's the. website so the website's. super.com super nooid yeah one word so. super so it's a play on Black Sabbath.

super knot right but the nautiloid is. like the the prehistoric Marine creature. so what is it it's like a squid with a. shell oh okay super na aloid race to. Alaska 2023 yep nice okay so super.com. the link to the GoFundMe is up there as. well yeah down the page are you going to. document this at all on either social. media or on YouTube or anything like. that so uh Barrett has a buddy who's a.

documentary. filmmaker um who he's going to do some. stuff on it so um like maybe if uh like. enough people kick in like five or 10. bucks we actually pay Tad to do a. documentary cuz he's he's he's a. professional he's not an amateur so it's. it's going to cost him money to have it. done right but Tad's interested in doing. it I think he just needs to be. remunerated proper properly you know in.

order to complete the project um but. yeah um that's been talked about and it. may happen well maybe we can make it. happen um so the other other thing that. I would say to you is I think you should. write a. book so. I I can tell a story about my my brush. with the literary world if you want okay. sure so I I actually I was at this. juncture another juncture um basically.

before I went to grad. school and I was like H maybe maybe I. should write a book you know may maybe. it's time or whatever and I actually I I. got an agent. and I wrote a a book proposal actually. wrote The Proposal when I was in Buenos. are and I I remember I was sitting in. this Cafe in Buenos are so it's like. winter time down there and it's pouring.

down rain and there's like water leaking. from the roof and there's pots and pans. around the cafe like catching the rain. water and on my laptop and I remember. finishing the proposal and it's like. cool when I get back to the. States I'll I'll meet with the agent and. you know and like there was so many um. parallels the the I'm I'm sure you've. been in that world too with the literary. world like the business side of it and. with that in the music world so he this. agent's promising me the world you know.

like the classic like music Biz thing. like you know you you boys are going to. be bigger than lad Zep you know kind of. thing yeah and uh I'm taking it with a. grain of salt I'm like okay you know I'm. being pretty moderate about the whole. thing so I I finished the proposal and I. thought it was decent you know um gave. it to him and then got another meeting. with him and some other. dude and they're they're like saying you. know kind of making these.

radical suggestions as far as like. changing the thrust of the narrative and. things like that and I I'd be open to. like tweaking it but like you know if if. it's my book it's going to be my vision. yeah you know like any any creative. project and uh then they started. suggesting like a a co-writer which is. code for a Ghost Rider and it's like you. know I'm not I'm not Hing way but I I. think I can put some sentences together. um according to other people who told me. that who know these things and uh so.

basically I I got accepted to grad. school and I got a a Tillman scholarship. that paid for grad school and it's like. okay I'm going to grad school and put. the book on the back burner but um it'll. probably happen someday I would suggest. that you just write it yeah and then try. to sell it I've had other people suggest. that as well yeah I think that's the. only way to do it I tried to do it the. other way a long time ago and I had a. disastrous I wind up giving the money.

back MH I just had a couple. conversations with them like I don't. want to do it like this yeah like nope. done okay you know yeah it was just. wasn't what I wanted to do you know what. I wanted to do is just write what I was. thinking about stuff and they they had. this very specific idea that they they. would they had a package that they. wanted it to fit into I was like it's. totally similar to my experience yeah I. mean that's what they do you know it's. like it's like the Scorpion and the Frog. right it's in my nature yeah it's just.

what they do yep yeah well listen. brother I really appreciate it man I. really enjoyed our conversation thank. you very much yeah thank you and good. luck and don't fall in the water have a. good time doing that we'll be very safe. like like that I was reading the safety. regulations and it's like this isn't. very hippie dippy you know like sure. yeah do you have any social media or. anything like that you could tell people. about just that just that and I created. the site myself it's my first foray into. that world at all um looks.

professional it's like one page it's. like that's all you need though that's. all you need I did design the Super. nautiloid Logo which I'm kind of proud. of it's like I don't know if you're. familiar with Black Sabbath volume 4. sure yeah my my favorite Sabbath record. one of my favorite records so it's an. homage to that obviously yeah so I kind. of mixed in like Sabbath and Maritime. and yeah cool all right well again I. really enjoyed this and thanks thanks. for doing us appreciate it oh you're. welcome I I enjoyed it very much to cool.

all right thanks everybody bye. [Music].