Joe Rogan Experience #1963 - Michael Shellenberger

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day hello Michael what's happening good. to see you again thanks for having me. back my pleasure appreciate it so um. first of all what was it like uh to get. a hold of the Twitter files like what. what was that experience like how did. that go down exciting as hell man I mean. seriously uh there's been a lot of.

misinformation about that itself but. Barry Weiss contacted me um she lives in. LA and she got in and she's like how. soon can you get over here and I was. like let me finish this interview I'm on. and I'm. over and yeah it was incredible um you. know i' never met Elon before you know I. met him at the coffee station just. making himself a cup of coffee he had no. idea who I was and yeah we just got into. it it was a you know I was sort of the. the the least known of The Big Three.

journalists that were there was Barry. Weiss and Matt taibe who was on and they. had already started thinking about how. to kind of what to go after and Matt had. done a story on the hunter Biden laptop. already um and then we were starting to. look at January 6 because Trump gets. deplatformed on January 8th and so. because I'm like the junior member of. that uh threesome so to speak they gave. me January 7th so the first thing we one. of the first things we did was just to. look at how they made a decision to get. to pull Trump jum off the platform and.

it turned out that the 7th was an. important day because that was when they. started to rationalize this decision to. deplatform Trump even though their own. people inside had decided that he had. not violated their terms of service so. they were sort of stuck making up a. reason to deplatform him and that was an. important theme was that they just kept. changing the rules basically to to do. what they wanted to do and that was the. same thing on the hunter B and laptop. the New York Post story that they. censored also had not violated their. terms service so I mean look it was.

crazy I mean it was uh you know people. always ask questions about the about the. files themselves but you know the. experience was we would ask for these. searches and we just get back huge. amounts of data was lots of thousands. and thousands of emails thousands of. internal messages on their slack. messaging. system and so yeah I mean a lot of it. was you know some of it was very boring. because you have to just read tons and. tons of stuff but you know we I think. the big theme was we start by seen a.

real you know super Progressive it's. like 99% of campaign contributions from. Twitter staff are going to Democrats you. know the head of safety at at Twitter. this guy named Yol. Roth who you know said you know said. there's actual Nazis in the White House. when Trump came in he's very. Progressive but over time we just kept. finding like this weird like FBI wants. us to do this you know there's these. other government agencies oh you know. this uh all these people used to work at. the FBI uh CIA shows up Department of.

Homeland Security and we're kind of like. what the hell is going on and the story. quickly shifted from us sort of and I. think what Elon thought which was that. it was just very Progressive people. being biased in their content moderation. and their censoring to there is a huge. operation by US government officials US. government contractors and all of these. super sketchy NOS getting money from who. knows where basically demanding that. Twitter starts censoring people and at.

that moment the story shifted for all of. us and that was I think where taibi. became particularly important and sort. of the lead because he had had so much. experience on on sort of looking at how. the US government during the war on. terror had waged disinformation. campaigns propaganda campaigns and it. became clear to us you know over time. that the US government had turned its. propaganda and disinformation campaigns. that had been waging abroad it turned. them against the American people and.

that was where you just start of get. chills up your spine and you were like. this something seriously Sinister is. going on do we know when this began like. when did they infiltrate these. organizations because I'm I'm sure it's. not just Twitter right I'm sure oh no. absolutely not that's part of what was. so terrifying is that it was all of the. social media companies including. Wikipedia by the way which we don't talk. enough about but also all of the. mainstream news organizations are all. being organized ized so when does it.

start you know it really what you're. looking at is the apparatus that was. created by the war on terror or the last. 20 years starting after 911 then there. was a battle against Isis because Isis. was successfully recruiting on social. media so there was sort of a counter. Isis recruiting campaign that. occurred then you get the big event is. brexit 2016 Trump's election in 2016 and. the establishment just freaks out. absolutely freaks out and they there's a.

lot of different motivations here so one. of the motivations is just to blame. Facebook blame social media for Trump's. Victory it was never true I don't really. think anybody really believed it there's. just you know it just there was just for. a variety of reasons we can talk about. there was never any good evidence that. the whatever Russians did had much of. any influence any measurable influence. on the outcome of the. campaign but they started to scapegoat. the the social media companies as a way. to get control over them and so then.

they start then in 2017 they set up well. two things happen or many things happen. the Department of Homeland Security just. declares election infrastructure to be. part of their mission of protecting. election infrastructure and that meant. protecting the media environment. protecting protect put it that in quotes. you know it's creepy it's. patronizing it's a power move so that's. the first thing that happens they create. something called the cyber security and.

infrastructure security agency within. the Department of Homeland. Security to supposedly protect the media. environment from foreign influence they. create something called the the foreign. influence task force with the FBI to. basically start policing domestic speech. on these. platforms they start organizing all the. social media companies to participate in. these meetings so you had Mark. Zuckerberg the CEO of Facebook in here. and he says to you there's this critical. moment where you ask about the hunter by. laptop and he goes well yeah um you know.

in the summer of 2020 all these FBI guys. come to us saying there's going to be a. hack and leak operation involving Hunter. Biden which is super suspicious because. as everybody now knows the FBI had. Hunter Biden's laptop in December. 2019 what freaked me out and I was I had. so by the way I was a victim of the. hunter Biden laptop disinformation I. thought that I I voted for Biden I. thought that it was a I thought that.

that laptop was Russian disinformation I. just bought the whole thing and this is. some from somebody Who You're a. journalist I'm supposedly a journalist. right so-called journalist I bought it. you know I'm still a big liberal in so. many ways and everybody I knew was like. oh you know and besides trump it was. just he's so for all the reasons that. progressives bought that the laptop was. fake I bought that it was fake so so. then when you realize that it was real. and that everything in that New York. Post story on October 14th 2020 was was.

accurate I started seeing stuff in the. emails the thing that really freaked me. out was this thing that Aspen Institute. a call it's called a tabletop exercise. and it was actually a zoom call to. roleplay how to deal with a Russian. hacking leak around Hunter Biden this is. like in June of 2020 so this is like. months before the New York before months. before Rudy Giuliani gets that La the. laptop before Rudy Giuliani gives the. laptop to New York Post.

why in the hell is Aspen Institute. holding a tabletop exercise to pre-b. buunk basically they are training or. brainwashing all these journalists I I. mean it's CNN New York Times Washington. Post Wikimedia uh Foundation the. Wikipedia folks um the networks all of. the social media companies all coming. together to be like okay well if. something is if something is leaked then. we should not cover it in the way that. journalists have traditionally covered. it mean meanwhile Stanford.

University a few a few months earlier. had put out a report saying reporters. should no longer follow the Pentagon. papers principle well the Pentagon. papers of course is this famous episode. it was Steven Spielberg made a whole. movie about it where the Washington Post. in New York Times published these. internal Pentagon documents showing that. the US government was losing the war in. Vietnam right this is Daniel urg and he. just releases it he steals these. documents he breaks the law steals these. documents gives them to the newspapers. newspapers publish them it's this kind.

of incredible moment in American. journalism where we are like the first. amendment gives these newspapers the. right to publish uh hacked so-called. hacked but leaked information and here. you have Stanford University asman. Institute saying oh no no that's all we. should stop doing that journalists. should no. longer write about leaked information in. that way instead we should focus on the. person who leaked it so it's it it. really sent chills up my spine you know. it was just it was the creepiest thing.

I'd ever seen and and this is of course. you got to remember as is funded by the. US government yeah Stanford's funded by. the US government so this is people go. oh well you're just one of the responses. we've got is they go oh you're just. talking about you know content. moderation by private companies no we're. talking about US government funded. organizations you can't if the US. government is censoring information. that's obviously a violation of the. First Amendment but if the US government. is funding somebody else to censor. information that's also a violation of. the First Amendment you can't. indirectly it's still a violation if.

you're if you're funding somebody to. demand censorship so that was quite a. steeple chase but there's a lot here I. mean it's a lot a lot of people a lot of. Institutions a lot to unpack and that. was part of the reason I wanted to reach. out and be like we just I need a Joe. Rogan session to just kind of go through. it all yeah well I'm very happy to. provide that um here's the question the. obviously the laptop would. harm uh the hunter Biden laptop would. harm Joe Biden obviously and if that. story got out who knows how many people.

would have voted the other way is this a. direct result of the things that Trump. said when he was in office that went. against the intelligence Community like. how did they decide I would always. assume that you know the the so-called. deep state is essentially bipartisan. that they they wouldn't necessarily side. with the Democrats or the Republicans. they're really you know they're just in. charge of they're supposed to be. gathering information to protect the.

country so how did they decide. specifically to. either um either stop information or. propagate misinformation that would Aid. Joe Biden. yeah yes that is exactly the right. question so I mean I think the thing you. have to understand is that that that. Trump was viewed by the Deep state. by you know CIA FBI.

you know I mean all of the elites and. and and this and you're right it's. bipartisan in the sense that it's both. never Trump Republicans and. Democrats what freaked them out the most. about Trump is that he was threatening. to pull the us out of NATO I don't think. that that was I just think that was. Bluster like that's insane like and by. the way I should. say I actually I support what we call. the Western Alliance I support providing. military security for our allies in Asia. and in Europe I'm not a. um I mean there's parts of economic.

nationalism that I respect but I'm also. I don't I don't think we should pull out. a NATO I think NATO has provided peace. in the world and and mostly been a good. thing it's obviously had some crazy. abuses like Iraq this whole experience. has made me rethink my support for for. Ukraine but I think it's important to. understand that Trump terrified the Deep. state in the National Security. establishment so did brexit there's a. sense in which you had a guy on here. named Peter Zion who wrote this book. called this really apocalyptic book.

about how the world is going to fall. apart and his whole argument which I. don't agree with I think he's brilliant. but the book is I think the argument is. wrong his whole argument is based on the. idea the United States is going to stop. providing military security to our. allies in Asia and Europe it's all just. based on this assumption that Trump is. the beginning of some the US withdrawing. from its traditional role since World. War. II there's a bunch of people who. obviously their their ideology their. their livelihoods their ident.

just their whole way of life is tied up. with providing the United States. providing this protect this protection. for you know Europe and Asia and they. viewed Trump as threatening that I also. think they just really hated the guy. they looked down on him you know he's. crude and all the things that that yeah. that people don't like about he spoke. disparagingly about the intelligence. Community yeah I mean he which is crazy. absolutely he was against the war in. Iraq he he was a different he was a. nationalist Republican and with what's. so interesting is that you know if you.

read people like you know people on the. left like Nome Chomsky and others who. have been critics of us or Glenn. Greenwald who are critics of or and I. think Matt taiii critics of US. Government you know military invasions. around the world since World War Two I. mean we've overthrown many governments. right uh you know um Iran Chile. Guatemala you know and and what the. pattern is is that these are places. where nationalists sometimes socialists. but but often just nationalists who were.

trying to control their economies and. they didn't want foreign interference. were coming to power and the US. government would see that as a threat to. providing you know to having this this. liberal Global order as it's called and. so they saw what Trump they saw Trump as. an existential threat to this post-war. liberal order and they needed to and and. they viewed social media as the means to. his power which I think was exaggerated. so on the one hand they saw a threat I. think they also saw an opportunity you.

know the war on terror we we won I mean. like there just I mean we huge huge. Victory I mean it's shocking how. successful it was in some way so you. have a bunch of people that suddenly. need something to. do so there's a lot of motivations there. and then you also have the guys that. lost the Hillary campaign John podesta. he was her chair of her campaign he runs. the most powerful. Progressive frankly propaganda. organization in the world or at least in. the United States the center of American. progress they were looking also for some.

reason someone to blame for their own. failures you know for the dislike. ability of Hillary and so there was just. a lot of motivations to try to get. control over social media platforms they. felt like they had lost control of them. and what was the attitude of these. social media platforms when they were. exchanging emails back and forth with. these intelligence agencies was there. any understanding of the implication of.

allowing this web of influence to. infiltrate and control narratives and. how kind of creepy and dangerous that is. did they understand how other people. would perceive that because I would. assume this is. all the emails were exchanged and there. was slack messages and all this stuff is. recorded right so it's there's there's a. record of it yeah did they have an. understanding of how other people would. view this yeah I mean just back up even. further it's so there's two interesting.

Dynamics going on you know the first is. that the internet itself is created by. the US Department of Defense and and. Google is a spin-off of defense. department projects you know so on the. one hand the internet is a function of. the US military I mean it's a spin-off. of the US military it's a great one. we're glad to have it but but I think. the US Military and the and the Deep. State and whatever they felt like they. had control over the Internet until. Trump basically or really maybe until. Isis around 2014.

2015 that's the first Dynamic the second. Dynamic is culturally Silicon Valley is. libertarian right so you have the. electronic Freedom Foundation I'm sorry. Electronic Frontier Foundation you have. a Libertarian ethos Jack dorsy the. founder of Twitter is very much a. manifestation of that libertarian ethos. Mark Zuckerberg less um but but even. Mark Zuckerberg after the 2016 elections. when everyone's accusing him of throwing. the election to Trump he's like this is. ridiculous he's like our own data.

doesn't doesn't support there just. wasn't enough the Russians clearly did. not have this influence they just beat. the crap out of them so much and. threatened to take away their ability to. operate which is known as section 230. which is this huge liability protection. in the law that passed in 1996 which. allows Google Facebook Twitter to exist. can I can I stop you there when you say. they threaten to take it like in what. way directly I mean direct including. Biden himself I mean but basically.

Democratic uh politicians they would. just say you know we're going to we're. going to remove your section 230 status. that's just like saying we're going to. destroy your company I mean there's just. it's not and they were saying this. because they were their assertion was. that Russian disinformation and. propaganda led to Donald Trump being AR. being elected arrested being elected and. there was no evidence of this no I mean. they there was I mean there was some. evidence of it but nothing well there.

was certainly evidence of like these. troll Farms yes right we know they exist. yes yeah but it's it's trivial I mean it. was they would exaggerate they would say. things like you know 140 I think like. 146 million Americans had Russian. propaganda in their news feeds that's. not the same as saying 146 million. people saw the ads right because it's. like your feed is remember that was. social of Facebook has changed so yeah. there's there's I mean look there's.

three. big disinformation campaigns that were. run by frankly the US government and. their allies the first was the Russia. hoax the idea that Russians that. Russians controlled Donald Trump and won. him the election the second was the. hunter ban laptop and the third is that. covid origin you know uh the idea that. that um it's a conspiracy theory to even. imagine that co could have emerged from. a lab others including you know we can.

talk about there's a there was this. effort to basically smear a bunch of. ordinary conservative or Trump. supporting Twitter users as Russian Bots. yeah um but but basically you have. active disinformation campaigns being. run by the US government and US. government contractors against the. American people on these issues at the. same time that they're act demanding. censorship so you have propaganda on the. one hand and censorship on the other. well here's what appears to be dangerous. to me there doesn't seem to be any. repercussions for doing these.

things this is scary because it's. shifting a Nar. so in Step One the hunter Biden laptop. for example one rather the hunter Biden. laptop no one's in trouble right no no. one's in trouble no one from the FBI is. in trouble no one loses their job no one. gets reprimanded no one gets you know. brought before the American people and. said you failed us not only did you fail. us you betrayed us right because you. knew this was not true and you allowed.

someone whose son has deep ties to both. Ukrainian and Chinese companies that. were paying him for influence and it. appears at least by some of these emails. that some of that money went to the. actual Vice President of the United. States which is [ __ ] wild that no one. is T and then the crazy thing is is one. of the things about having a right and a.

left is that whenever there's. information that's. inconveniently bad for that one side. particularly the left you don't hear a. [ __ ] peep about it on the media right. it's it's dismissed it's like you know. they'll they'll talk about it like uh. what did who did someone said the. someone talked about the hunter Biden. laptop and said it was like half fake. that was like a term a half fake that's.

right what is that is. a that is such a horrible violation of. the trust that the people who elected. you put in you they you have access to. all the information you have access to. that actual [ __ ] laptop oh yeah by. the way I have access to it too yeah a. lot of people have access to it if you. wanted to I said I don't want to look at. it I was like I don't want to look that. [ __ ] thing I want to see this guy.

getting foot jobs from hookers in. Vietnam smoking Street crack it's crazy. whatever he did but the fact that. someone would say that's half fake yeah. that itself is disinformation it's. that's that that is a lie disinformation. a li but you're just saying it because. if you can say it's half fake all you. muddy the water and now anybody that's. looking at that could go oh yeah but. that's half fake yeah according to my. side right this is like the same people. there's still people that say that Trump.

was in bed with the Russians which is. how he won in 2016 there people that. still parent that oh yeah oh yeah I'm. very close friends and family um oh yeah. say that I know I was happy to do your. show because literally like even my very. close friends and family don't. understand what I'm talking about and. I'm like I want to go on Joe Rogan and. just unpack this for them to how how. serious this is I mean you have to. remember the New York I mean and I I'll. put it on myself I was so biased the New. York Post published the The subpoena.

which is a kind of receipt from the FBI. showing they had taken Hunter Biden's. laptop from this computer repair store. owner in Delaware it was published in. the New York Post they also published. the receipt that has Hunter Biden. signature on it saying that he had not. only had left the laptop there but also. that it gave the computer store uh the. computer repair owner the rights to it. if he abandoned it Hunter Biden never. said it wasn't his he never denied that. it was his laptop well and subsequently.

at least recently he sued that guy for. releasing the information which the. dumbest thing he could have ever done CU. now all this half fake [ __ ] gets thrown. out the window now it's he's saying it's. his right well they they're always there. look there I mean I think the other. thing I want to also emphasize here. because I think that when you uncover. the level of coordination and the. sophistication of the disinformation and. censorship campaign it's easy to also s. say they're perfect but they're not. they're always making stuff up as. they're going along right but I think.

the other interesting um you know thing. that's important to to know here about. that laptop story is that within Twitter. they look at that New York Post article. Yol Roth the head of safety and his team. they look at and they go yeah I mean. it's legit it doesn't violate our our. internal it doesn't violate our terms of. service and at that moment I mean it has. a Manchurian quality manuring can. quality to it where the former Chief. legal counsel to FBI a guy named Jim.

Baker who was Central to beginning the. Russia gate probe of trump he's now at. Twitter as Deputy general counsel this. is we're discovering this is part of. what I was discovering in the Twitter. files is just vociferously attacking. this thing is like this looks like. misinformation disinformation we. shouldn't trust it looks like it. violates Twitter's policies he was he. just I mean like multiple I think it was. at least four messages and emails of him. pushing to the Executives then of course. it doesn't we can't see the phone calls.

that which is really where a lot of the. Dirty Work happens pushing to just get. this thing censored by by Twitter sure. enough a few few hours later Yol Roth. says well okay uh you know we think that. it could very well have been a Russian. Hack where somehow they put the I mean. it was this crazy thing where they're. like well we think it was hacked and. then put on the laptop it was just. bizarre Yol Roth like on there's moments. where I respect him because he was he. was enough of a truth teller internally.

it's why he got to the position he was. in which is a very powerful position to. be like hey this is [ __ ] like. internally he would say but he was also. a company man so when his when powerful. superiors in the organization including. former FBI people and Jim Baker wasn't. the only one when he gets worked he just. bends and he just was like okay yeah I. think we've decided that it violates our. hacked um materials policy and we're. going to censor it the other thing I. want to point out about this it's not. just that they censored the article.

because people always go well you know. um they it only lasted for a few days or. whatever it was the discrediting of it. the censoring censorship is a. disinformation strategy if you censor. that article in other words Twitter and. Facebook all the headlines where Twitter. and Facebook are you know they're going. to restrict the dissemination of this. material or they think it's you know. that's that all that publicity is really. What mattered so in terms of like you. know in my defense and other people that. bought the idea that it was somehow a.

fake we were being told by the media. that everybody had looked at this and. was kind of like look it looks like it's. hacked and there's something there's. something funny about it so I think that. um you know I think the there's so many. shocking things about it but I think. it's the the level of coordination and. Conformity Within These social media. companies it was the pre-b buunk in. advance and it was the complete. total you know. uh just the complete news media blackout.

and unanimity that there was and it was. just all of them I mean it was like all. the networks all the newspapers they all. just repeated this idea there was. something wrong about the laptop and. there wasn't it's so creepy and it's so. creepy that there's no repercussions. yeah it's essentially lying and using. taxpayer dollars to promote propaganda. that they know to be untrue but there is. a chance I mean so we do the Attorneys.

General of Louisiana Louisiana and. Missouri um are moving forward in the. courts ensuing the ensuing the Biden. Administration for violating the First. Amendment you know this is of course. this hunb laptop think it's just one of. many things I mean the other craziest. thing of all maybe some of the most. craziest stuff of all is that Facebook. censored accurate covid vaccine side. effect information because didn't want. to promote vaccine hesitancy in other.

words the White House is like just. pressuring them I mean this guy Andy. slavin in particular is just this malign. actor just pressuring pressuring. threatening them they're nasty in these. emails the the White House nasty in what. way oh just um just being just just. basically you know it's a I mean Biden. does it publicly so they're killing. people they're basically accusing people. of I mean these guys they don't the. gloves are off I mean they're just like. you're killing people by letting this. information out I mean the information. is people telling their own story of.

vaccine side effects we always point out. like it was one of the great public. interest Progressive victories in recent. memory that the drug companies have to. name the side effects of their drugs in. their TV ads yeah like that's a big part. of it right it's like a running joke you. have to name the side effects in the tv. ads well here they like here were. ordinary people trying to tell stories. of the side effects that they had from. the vaccine on Facebook and Twitter and. the White House is demanding that. Facebook and Twitter censor that stuff.

this is the this is just the the worst. that I mean that is uh I mean that's. just Soviet Chinese style censorship. like full on I mean so it's not over and. I think that you know we've already seen. there's other things going on like that. agency I mentioned that cyber that part. of the Department of Homeland Security. the cyber security and infrastructure. Security Agency they changed their. website over the last few months to. remove references to domestic. uh counter disinformation efforts to.

emphasize countering foreign. disinformation they um you know we we. talk a lot about this there's one of the. big leaders of the censorship industrial. complex is this person named Renee Desta. at Stanford internet Observatory had on. let's talk about that because uh I had. her on and what she essentially was. talking about was all these Russian. troll farms and how interesting it is. that they created all these funny memes. and they used all these resources to try. to shift the narrative and change public.

opinion on certain things and that that. it was very effective yeah well so let's. just let's start with Renee yeah so. first of all Renee is somebody who I. only I came across because she's. actually kind of moderate on a bunch of. the stuff that I'm moderate on like. dealing with homelessness on Co she's. actually like a moderate voice she's not. super woke or anything and she's. critical of like she moved out of San. Francisco because it's just too crazy. she so she and I had this conversation.

like we were talking about this even. before I started talking to her right. when I started looking at the Twitter. files and we did this long interview I. was on Sam Harris's podcast with her but. then she starts showing up in the. Twitter files and all these weird ways. and we start looking into her it's a. very so she's also the reason we're. she's so important is like like when you. read the you know when you when you. follow the meetings or watch the Youtube. videos whatever she's like one of the. smartest people like there's something. going on with her she's like a real. leader she's she's always sort of the. number two the other thing about these.

people is that they move around a lot. they move in between organizations and. she's always sort of the number two but. she always seems a bit smarter than the. person that she's reporting to but so. she's somebody that she goes to she gets. a computer science degree from uh State. University of New York at Stonybrook. that happens to be a major recruiting. place for the NSA she then goes and had. she gets a job at Jan's trading which is. like one of the the the great it's like. up there with Goldman or maybe B it's. where SP SPF from FTX was at um she was.

there then she had a couple of companies. that did like Logistics and cyber very. high-powered successful executive and. then according to her story and the. public story she gets obsessed with. antivaxers she's got young kids she's. obsessed with antivaxers spreading. antivaxx misinformation this long before. covid I think it's around 2014. 2015 next thing she you know she's like. advising president President Obama on. counter Isis disinformation strategy in.

the White House and Advising on the. expansion of something called the. global um uh the global education center. which is part of the state department to. counter disinfo so suddenly she's like. like the senior person it's very. suspicious very rapid rise if you know. anything about those communities they're. very hierarchical and like you have to. work your way up over many years she's. instantly like at the top she in. 2017 she is at a consulting firm called.

new. knowledge that is then. caught doing disinformation against an. Alabama trumpy and Republican candidate. named Roy Moore they are caught doing. fake Facebook pages accusing Roy Moore. of wanting to basically uh restrict. alcohol consumption um in Alabama which. is deeply unpopular position that was. false and also uh creating the. perception of russan Bots supporting Roy. Moore her firm runs that.

campaign. afterwards she sort of tries to distance. herself from it suggests that she wasn't. involved even though when you read The. Washington Post in New York Times. articles about her about that about the. Scandal um she sort of she makes it it. makes it clear that she was actually the. person that brought the funding in to. run the program and also kind of. conceived a much of the. strategy after that she becomes the top. resar researcher to the Senate. intelligence report of 2018 on Russian.

disinformation in the 2016 election so. she's not not only is she not punished. for her role in it she's rewarded by the. Democrats with this incredibly powerful. position so she becomes like the lead. witness the lead author for Senate. Democrats Adam Schiff in promoting the. whole you know narrative that somehow. Russians swung the election to Trump and. there's no repercussions for promoting. this false information no I mean she's. rewarded for and no one talks about it. it's.

never well I mean we're starting to. right but I mean I'll point a couple. other things but before the Twitter. files I'm sorry to interrupt but you. didn't even know right like so most. people don't know no there's one guy we. discovered uh Matt Matt taii discovers. him and only I only and I only like. whatever like a week or two before my. testimony in Congress which was uh a. couple few weeks ago not the one I did. yesterday um we discovered this this guy. he was the head of cyber at the state.

department a senior guy named Mike Ben. and he is like super deep into the stuff. he's amazing I highly recommend him. coming on but he runs something he. basically leaves state department and. starts something called the foundation. for freedom online and he has been. documenting this more than anybody so he. had it but he's not um he's just really. in the weeds like it's really detailed. you have to really it was hard to. understand you have to really go through. it un packet I used a bunch of in my. testimony I talked to him I interviewed.

him a lot but I mean you know basically. a media blackout on all of this stuff. Rene Desta who then moves from new. knowledge to Stanford internet. Observatory that. organization and three other. organizations Atlantic Council graph and. University of Washington has a think. tank on this they get government funding. and they run something called the the. election Integrity project in 2020 to. basically demand censorship if I just. read the election Integrity committee I.

get super suspicious oh yeah just the. just the name of that I mean Joe it's. they they they basically would. flag hundreds of millions of tweets I. believe that their database they had. they had over a billion uh social media. posts Facebook Twitter that they flagged. and tens of millions of them were. censored are they running that's insane. by the social media companies running. some sort of a program that allows them.

to find those tweets yeah um you see it. a lot they do these Maps they have these. Maps where they just they they locate. the super spreaders so like you and me. would be super spreaders Jordan I'm in a. I mean I'm they they attack me in this. disinformation this little these these. sensors really they have reports they. put like me Jordan Peterson Bjorn. lomborg you T I mean they put us in. there so anybody that has a social media. a big social media follower following.

call us super spreaders um and then they. try to get us censored and they did for. me they got Facebook to censor me how so. well they well when my my book on the. environment came out apocalypse never in. 20120 I wrote an article that sort of. summarized the book as one does it went. super viral it then one of these Shady. organizations uh attacked it not for. anything being wrong WR with it but for. it being you know.

misleading they call it uh it's the same. way that they attacked the vaccine side. effect stuff they go well you know it's. accurate it's true but it leads people. to draw the wrong. conclusions right um the wrong. conclusion being that climate change is. real but not the end of the world or. vaccines the wrong conclusion would be. maybe don't get the vaccine or maybe if. you're you know whatever under 18 or. you're you know you know young man under. 18 or if you've had whatever I mean. whatever it might be you don't need to. be triple vaxed they they so they're.

basically using a an opinion which is. you should get the vaccine or you should. think of climate change as apocalyptic. as a way to and then they kind of go. through the back door and say anything. that's being used to propagate that. narrative should be counted as. misinformation Jesus so she so B just to. back up so that so this little cluster. this censorship industrial. complex does this quot quote election. Integrity project in in 2020 they censor.

tens of millions of social media posts. and by censor do you mean they remove. them so by sensor where I'm I'm going to. use the definition that everybody uses. which is it's you can remove you can. reduce or you can they call it inform. you can put a a flag on it that's what. they everything I do for Facebook now. almost everything I do has a warning on. it you know here's how to get accurate. information about climate go to the. Facebook climate change center even my. stuff on homelessness and drugs they'll.

be like here's how to get accurate. information on that's how you know that. I'm I've got on some list I'm on some. black list at Facebook so yeah so it's. those three things those are all forms. of censorship those these groups which. are US government funded organizations. this is very important to stress this is. not some private actors US government. funded organizations pressuring the. social media companies to censor these. posts and these people. and they do it in 2020 and then Renee.

who does this little video it's like the. one of the creepiest videos that we've. discovered there's little videos that. they do she's sort of describing you. know um well and then we realized that. we needed to keep going on covid and so. then in. 2021 the election Integrity project. turns into something called the virality. project and that's where they then go. and wage censorship on covid um. information that they don't like I. refuse to use their language and again. it's tens of millions of people and it's. so you see it at all levels it's these.

guys doing it we say I like we the. censorship industrial complex is the. right I think description of what we're. talking about it's a phrase that of. course came from Dwight Eisenhower's. famous farewell address that he gives he. goes look you know you got to worry the. dod is funding all these private. military contractors these private. military contractors have a financial. interest in war this is Eisenhower the. guy that won World War II I mean it's. like Mr credible this issue and he was. like this amazing beautiful I mean it's.

really the best of of what a president. can be and he warns against this it's. the so it's this it's this com complex. it's this kind of clustering of. government agencies and government. funded groups so you know I mean it's in. the case of the censorship industrial. complex it's the Department of Defense. it's the state department it's FBI it's. CIA it's Department of Homeland Security. funding. these so-called think tanks and they're. some sometimes they're at universities.

or sometimes they're Standalone some of. them are in Britain by the way there's a. very special that special relationship. with the US and Britain often the US. will the the UK think tanks right now. are attacking me trying to discredit me. so sometimes they'll go that way they'll. try to like and attack new how so well. they just put out a. report uh these guys are the worst they. put out this like long report um. describing climate. disinformation and like I was like as. soon as I open it up I was like [ __ ] I. bet I'm in this and I just do like.

command F and I just shellenberger and. sure enough it's like like whatever like. multiple results I'm like crap you know. and so they and they you know often. these are reports that they don't get a. lot of fanfare or whatever but they get. they make sure that they get emailed to. a bunch of journalists they talk to the. journalists and they just they basically. just emphasize never talk to this person. never quote this person do not platform. them we then by the way after our. testimony that Stanford cluster it's. actually more than one group at Stanford.

even they emailed I'm not going to say. who because I don't want to give away my. sources but they've basically emailed. many people about Matt and my testimony. trying to attack our testimony and. sharing information so they're just the. creepiest they creep around they're. constantly they're constantly waging. disinformation campaigns against. disfavored voices while and demanding. censorship while also spreading their. own misinformation God it's so creepy. that this is that the people doing this. don't understand how deeply unamerican.

this is yes and that they feel like it's. okay to do because the side that they're. on is the right side you got it you got. it it's un I mean it's so unamerican I. mean Joe it's funny because like I I. mean so I graduated from high school in. 1989 I remember distinctly that that was. the year that the Supreme Court upheld. your right to burn a flag and I remember. just being like God damn that's why I'm. a Democrat that's why I'm a liberal like.

I think you should be able to burn a. flag cuz I think the First Amendment. literally from that moment on I have. never worried about the first amendment. in the United States and for me it was. like always kind of basic like like like. come on guys like it's the first it's. the first amendment like how could it. possibly be under threat this was like. one of the few times where because I. don't spook super easily but like. reading this stuff you're just like this. is scary these people are scary and you. may know by the way when Matt taiii and. I were testifying before Congress a few.

weeks ago the IRS Agent shows up at Matt. Tai's house in person yeah this is. insane The Wall Street Journal just. wrote a piece about a few days. ago uh I was like call I'm like look hey. you know maybe it's a coincidence. whatever I was like just asking around. people I know and people were like uhuh. no way is that a coincidence so this is. brazen these guys are trying to send a. message they're trying to. intimidate they're they they want to.

ruin our I mean they Bas for me it's. been years of just trying to survive of. you know just just trying to deplatform. discredit keep you off of off of out of. newspapers out of TV show out of. whatever. podcasts and and so yeah these guys are. they're ruthless um you know the it's. definitely a hall monitor mentality you. know like and and and it's elitist I. mean it's like Renee is a snob I'll just. you know she's I I agree with her on.

some things I'm sure she's a fine person. in her personal life she's probably a. good mother I mean I don't have any you. know I'm trying to trying to be nice I'm. trying to be Christian about this um but. I mean they're snobs like they literally. they I remember at one point I briefly. asked her about climate change and you. know we talked about the climate stuff. and I could tell that she felt like she. was actually probably an expert on that. too you know it's like literally I wrote. my book I spent I 20 years of reseearch. going to my book fine maybe I'm wrong. but I mean like you have journalists out.

there Joe and like all these big. Publications they're like 23 years old. and they're like I'm a disinformation. expert I mean can you imagine being like. I'm a truth expert Joe I'm a truth. expert that's really what it is a truth. expert you're a malign actor and a. vector of disinformation whereas I'm a. truth expert so there's definitely that. whole you know that Jordan Peterson have. talks about which is like I'm just pure. and good and it's reinforced within the. group right it's a very this is a very. tribal thing. you have these ideologies these people.

subscribe to but it's it's so disturbing. as a person you know who grew up liberal. to see this from the left this this. hardcore censorship from the left and. this support of government. disinformation that's purely aligned. with monetary reasons it's just about. money I mean that's the only reason why. they would be doing this money and power. money and power money and power and and. ideology and you know like I said it's.

like you know it's not even I mean I I. think mostly like I said I think the. Western Alliance and NATO have brought. peace you know since World War II and I. don't think we should be pulling out and. you know honestly the extent I've. rethought my position on Ukraine is just. because of these nefarious actors like. what are they really doing. here so yeah I mean for sure it's it's. you know it is what kind of we all have. known it is is you're trying to the US. is is part of this Empire and we're. trying to make the world safe for. Western capitalism and Western. corporations and you know that's.

actually lifted a bunch of people out of. poverty it's not totally negative but. obviously you also get the Iraq invasion. which was terrible and the Afghanistan. occupation which resulted in Horrors but. you also get some things that aren't. beneficial to anybody if you're. censoring information about the lab leak. hypothesis yeah that's a real problem. because if we are still funding gain of. function research or if we are funding. it through a proxy right and they're. denying this and lying about this and. covering this up through emails and then.

when you find out that certain. Physicians and doctors changed their. testimony or changed their opinion and. then received enormous grants yeah like. this is this is like this is you're. following a very obvious paper trail. let's let's let's can we's let's spend a. minute on this because this is crazy so. and by the way the New York Times. finally ran a good story on this just. yesterday and particularly around fouchi. so fouchy of course is famous for saying.

I am science yeah let's just PA if you. criticize Anthony fouchy you're. criticizing. science it's I mean first of all which. is a crazy thing for a human to say it's. a crazy thing that is so first of all. the word science I was thinking the. other day like it should just not be a. noun like science is a process yes it's. about it's you should a better word. would be investigations investigating I. mean Jal science yeah it should be. sciencing yeah when you say the science.

criticizing the science like no you mean. the data right like are you talking. about data science is a process a. process and you say the science the. science doesn't support it it's a. religion I mean they're saying he's. saying the truth the religion I'm the. holy priest in touch with God what's. just ego it's it's it's so transparent. that he can't even hide it yes like it's. it's it's pouring out of him and I think. it's this is such an interesting cas. case because so so the US government.

banned gain of function research yes in. 2014 right um ni kept funding it yes in. China so and fouchi knew. that um he knew that and then but didn't. that restart in 2016 or 17 when when. Trump got into office I'm not sure the. exact timeline you mean just s China. Obama the Obama Administration stopped. the funding right and then it kicked. back in in.

2016 what I had would have been. explained to me was that the Trump. Administration was so chaotic that the. NIH said listen let's just [ __ ] do. this through the Eco Health Alliance and. make it simple and that way we'll kind. of like do it by proxy yeah I think the. the punchline though is that fouchy knew. very well that gain of function research. was not only occurring at the Wuhan lab. but that it was being funded by the US. government yeah and they get on these. conference calls and two of the main.

researchers I believe they're both at. from scripts they both go uh yeah I. don't know looks like it could have been. manufactured from a lab and and not from. zuntic spillover so so it's even more. Sinister than just being arrogant it's. actually looks like a cover up it looks. like a cover up and it looks like a. cover up where the people who covered it. up were compensated oh and not only that. but did you see I don't know if you saw. this recent report where where there's. it looks like they were they were double. dipping they were over they were double. charging they were overcharging so they.

were. basically getting paid twice by us. taxpayers CBS News which is like only. one of the few mainstream media Outlets. has actually done a good job covering. this they also covered the 100b laptop. accurately um belatedly but they did. yeah they wrote about how these. contractors uh were were getting paid. twice for the same work oh so that's a. way now to kind of get in there and try. to figure out what's going on you know. um we're hoping to I mean the the crazy. thing is on the Twitter back to the.

Twitter files because you know Elon is. obsessed with fouchy and wants to have. the fouchy files but none of us have. looked for this in the Twitter file like. literally nobody has yet even looked to. see whether or not this Co origin stuff. was being censored from within Twitter. so we don't know yet I mean we've just. been backed up and a lot of other stuff. but wow so this other stuff is so. preoccupied all of your time that that. so is that next on the agenda I hope so. I mean I um should you be proclaiming. that publicly no it's uh I mean uh you.

mean that we want to look for it no I. mean Elon proclaimed it Elon promised. the fouchy files literally said is his. pronouns are prosecute fouchy which is. wild yeah that wouldn't have been that. would I would have I would have liked to. do the fouchy files first and then then. make a judgment well the thing he's. smart and what he's doing is he's he's. like firing a shot across the bow and. then causing people to scramble and. reveal their intentions and reveal like.

what what they're trying to accomplish. yeah right like it's a chess move it's a. good chess move because it gets people. talking and then it gets people talking. about fouchi I have no idea what he's. talking about it's just craziness oh. it's craziness is it really well maybe. someone's going to go look at a maybe. someone's going to go back and look at. the way you got guys handled the AIDS. crisis because if you look at Robert. Kennedy Jr's book the real Anthony.

fouchy if that book is accurate I don't. know if it's accurate I'm assuming he. hasn't been sued yet it's a terrifying. book when they talk about the AIDS. crisis and what they it's it's. essentially a version of what you're. seeing now but with no internet where. they were allowed to do things with no. investigative journalists no social. media outrage no people posting. different studies that contradict what. they're saying yeah it's it's a wild.

book man it's a wild book of unchecked. power and influence and and also like an. absolute disdain for what is beneficial. to human life and the American people. and instead what is great for profit. yeah I mean it's it's an abuse of power. you know we had this crazy abuses of. power you know under Nixon during the. Vietnam war late 60s early 70s we had a. we had a church we had thing called The. Church committee hearings it was. bipartisan it did result in a bunch of.

reforms it reminded the you know we had. a bunch of reforms that basically. prevented the federal government from. spying on the American people and well. that's out the window well yeah I mean. we need a new church commission the. Democrats are the obstacle to it the. Republicans are doing this weaponization. of the federal government hearings but. you need both parties to do a proper. cleaning out of these Bad actors I mean. hope hopefully the lawsuits the Twitter. files I think you know just talking. about this and testifying about it I. think actually because sunlight is the.

best disinfectant but no you're right. you've got to we've got to defund and. dismantle the censorship industrial. complex but we also need to hold people. accountable who were doing this illegal. only way if if people aren't held. accountable then it seems like you can. just do it again and get away with it. and then everybody just sort of just. gets they upwardly move and that's right. get rehired at new organizations and. that's right they kind of hide they kind. of go they kind of get quiet for a. little while and they kind of just you. know quiet but they'll come back so.

absolutely it's um you know it's funny. because as you get older I was I was. telling I was like it's just like get. older like ohow those cliches are true. you know like the one that's like you. know uh the famous Jefferson one of the. price of freedom is eternal vigilance. you're like I would was so when I I. remember being like that's so cringe you. know like a few years ago and now I'm. like wow that is profound so true we. were talking about this last night that. you know when I was texting Elon about. all this stuff he he was like he's.

hilarious he's like turns out all the. conspiracy theories were true. LOL I mean he thinks it's funny he's so. casual about it I'm like terrified I'm. like white knuckling the whole thing. being like this is car I guess having. $200 billion do really puts a nice. cushion on like the repercussions for. whatever the [ __ ] you do other than him. getting assassinated and he has publicly. stated that I'm not suicidal and I think. he's legitim concerned like that could. be something that happens to him his.

security details amazing it should be. yeah yeah should be beyond amazing you. should have [ __ ] Iron Man guard even. better than your security D still man I. have to step it up after this interview. no for sure I have to pee I'm so sorry. drinking a ton of water and this is so. embarrassing I used to be able to go for. three hours we'll be right back that's. fine and we're back okay where were we. govern bad something's bad. the Long March to totalitarianism yeah.

it's disturbing because it seems like. that's just how it goes like they just. keep acquiring more power and no one. notices and no one says anything and. then it just it moves very slowly like. Jordan Peterson outlined this he he. outlined this he was talking about how. change doesn't happen in these big jumps. what they do is they move you and push. you just incrementally very and you. don't say anything and they push you a. little forward and before you know it. you're so far removed from where you.

started right and you didn't even notice. it right it's changing the it's changing. the Norms that's why I think you know we. were talking about this person Renee. Desta but these other groups in the. censorship industrial complex they're. constantly promoting the idea that it's. okay and necessary to have more. censorship so both times I've testified. now you know twice in the last 3 weeks. both times the Democrats were like I. mean the Republicans were like why are. you taking why are we taking stuff down. and the Democrats are like we're not.

taking enough stuff down I mean there's. the sense in which more stuff needs to. be censored that's the idea they're. trying to promote it's it's bizarre. again this is the party that defended. flag burning yes it's it's really spooky. too that it's so. transparently it's so transparently. evolving around money and power it's not. like there's no real protection. especially when you look at what. happened during the co crisis if you. could just like look at it now and go.

over it and say what were you trying to. do really it seems like what you're. trying to do is make as much money as. possible for the pharmaceutical. companies that seems like what you were. doing like this whole idea of vaccine. hesitancy once enough data was out there. particularly when you're talking about. vaccinating people that had already had. covid like that's preposterous it. doesn't even make sense it doesn't make. sense medically it doesn't jive with the. studies like all this is very strange. and this this idea that you're you're. you're stopping vaccine hesitancy like.

from because of real data like what that. term is so creepy because what you're. saying is side effects you're talking. about not telling people about the. dangers of something which has always. been something that we considered with. every drug and you're hiding it. absolutely and also not only that but. like this is not the same as measles or. moms this is very different than that. and you don't get her immunity with the. covid vaccine and so so like I mean you.

have to remember that like what's crazy. about it too is you go from this well. we're going to have a vaccine and then. we're not going to get it to and then. we're not going to spread it to okay. well you you might still get it but it. won't be as bad but you won't spread it. and then you well you're not going to. get you might you might get it but it. won't be as bad and but you might still. spread it so then it's kind of like well. then why like why the man why mandating. this like why not just let it be person. Choice did you see the video that was. released recently of fouchy in the hood.

it's amazing with those black residents. it's amazing the one guy's like. something else is going on yeah you know. fou and and Fouch is explaining if you. get it it would you barely notice it. which is just a [ __ ] lie people have. died that have been vaccinated they've. died from covid you're a [ __ ] liar. yeah and also they never tested it to. stop immunity or to uh to stop. transmission yeah just knew that it was. giving some sort of antibody protection.

I think some of it is I think I think. definitely money of course it has to. it's playing a role and it's. foundational but it's also just this. moralizing it's the sense of wanting to. take care of people it's a lot of stuff. that we talked about on homelessness. it's this uh you know to vict to people. to victims everything should be given. and nothing required um although in this. case of course the requirement is that. they take the vaccine but it's a sense. it's paternalism it's also attached to. the ideology it's attached. wi ideology and the rightwing people are. like you're not going to get me with.

that jab and the leftwing people like. I'm not boosted enough let's let's keep. going it's very strange to watch people. put this blind trust in pharmaceutical. companies and demonize people who don't. step in with it but it's a bit of also. like the the Cathy Bates character in. misery which is like I'm going to take. care of you you know there's like I. really want to take care of you it's. like I don't think so you want to you. want to take care of me too much yeah so. it's it's like care when care becomes.

creepy well it's also it's enforcing. group thing right that's that's a big. part of it group think is a natural. inclination that people have and it well. and but it's accelerated by the rise of. the internet and the rise of these. voices so people like you you trigger. people because it's like oh my there's. people out there that are influential. that are saying things different than. what you know the mainstream are saying. it it freaks them out which should freak. them out is that CNN said I was taking. veterinary medicine that should freak.

them out and I think it did freak A lot. of people out right instead of saying. hey how'd that guy get better so quick. from some horrible deadly disease and 3. days later right I mean when they used. my face and put it through a filter to. turn me yellow like oh that was all of. it was wild right it's for a person to. watch it espe for a person to be in my. position and watch it it w it was really. interesting because first of all it's. like. like um I'm not on a network like you. really can't get rid of me right and.

second of all I have a lot of money so I. can just like even if I stop working. you're not going to hurt me I'll just. I'll find something I'll I'll figure. something out like this is not a thing. like the 1970s when you could just get. someone removed from a television show. like when they attack the Smothers. Brothers for the criticism of the. Vietnam War this is a different thing. right like you're in a different. landscape and I don't think you. understand where. where you're at like you're playing this. game where you don't even understand the.

numbers well and you I think you said. too you benefited right they came after. you and you had a big boost two million. subscribers in a month I gained thank. God for the stri an effect yes it also. sold my book yeah like I mean it like I. mean on the one hand that's really being. censored is such a horrible experience. it really feels dehumanizing to be. deprived your voice or to have this. super powerful Media Company being like. shom burer is spreading disinformation. it's just like oh my God was this the. San Francisco no that was the apocal.

never apocalypse never but on the other. hand you know I think the response from. people was well I want to go read that. book yeah and and so there is a way in. which it's a it's an interesting thing. where where the regime goes too far it. also people don't like that made me. question scientific papers for the first. time when when I when I was informed by. people who don't want to talk about it. publicly. how these things work like from when I. talked to people who are Physicians who.

said listen this is why I can't talk. about this publicly this is why I can't. discuss this and this is why when you. read a scientific paper and you read the. conclusion what you don't understand is. that this this was designed this study. was designed to show one very specific. outcome and if it didn't you would never. say it that happens all the time like I. would have never imagined that before Co. I thought that when they did a when. there's any sort of scientific study or. a medical study or any anything about.

something what they're trying to do is. find out what's true I did not know that. they can do 10 studies and if eight of. them show negative side effects they. could remove those and just find some. carefully constructed very biased study. that points to a very specific outcome. that's desired oh absolutely I didn't. know that oh yeah that scares the [ __ ]. out of me well because they don't. publish null findings you know they they. don't they only publish if they get a. finding so then you don't know all the.

cases where it's like they didn't find. anything or they found the well even. worse when I talked to John Abramson and. he explained to me how data is uh like. when they do like a peer reviewed study. on say the a pharmaceutical drug you're. not really doing a peer-reviewed study. on the data you're doing a peer-reviewed. study on the interpretation of the data. by the pH pharmaceutical company so they. don't have access to the actual study. they don't have access to the data they.

have access to the conclusions that are. given to them by the pharmaceutical. companies and then they review that. which is [ __ ] Insanity that's like. the wolf telling you what he did to the. hen house it's like you know like. basically they were all dead when I got. there right I mean this is I mean we. should have this should be a moment of. great humility I mean my parents my. parents you know they they had a high. carb diet they thought that proteins and. fats were bad this was just based on the.

worst science we pyramid you know the. food pyramid and yeah I I I think some. of their and they at least my father. agrees both my parents have Parkinson's. I think that all of that Sugar insulin. cycling had some role in that and there. should be a moment of humility to be. like science really misled us we you. know various authors have done good. debunkings of how we got there but this. would be a moment of great humility but. instead we're seeing the Elites in. particular responding with more. dogmatism more certainty more arrogance. they're trying to cover their.

tracks yeah and cover their ass they're. in the grip of a of an ideology and I. think there is a panic you know they. they they they see you succeed they see. people like me or Bjorn or others. substack the rise of substack yeah and. they absolutely so this is the Revolt of. the public by Martin G is he argues that. really all of this is just the elites. freaking out about the rise of the. internet and that the response is very. similar to the response to the printing. press you the printing press suddenly. makes books available and the Elites in.

Europe freak out yeah I just found out. recently like fairly recently that some. of the earliest books the really popular. ones are about witches finding witches I. always assumed that books in the early. days like oh what a great thing the. printing press was when the printing. press came about people got access to. all this knowledge and information no a. lot of the early books were about how to. spot a witch scary which kind of makes. sense because it's with a lot of the. internet is I mean you get on like. Reddit conspiracy like I go to the.

Reddit conspiracy page every now and. then and like what's the looniest [ __ ]. that they have and you'll you'll find. some they're like whoa and you know yeah. well we see the inter now we social. contagion yeah so the big one I mean the. big one of course that we're all talking. about is this is the trans issue where. we're now seeing and that issue by the. way is completely changed in Europe you. know and particularly in Britain where. there's a big new book out a time to. think about the Tavo clinic but. basically it looks as though a lot of. autistic kids or kids on autism with.

autism spectrum they who are just. uncomfortable in their bodies are more. prone to be thinking in black and white. are basically being misdiagnosed with. gender dysphoria and then you also have. a you know a different group of folks. maybe kids that are would end up being. gay or lesbian if they didn't transition. yes who become convinced that they are. the opposite sex this is. one of the ideas is some of it's a. social contagion in other ways it's.

iatrogenic which means that it's. actually caused by the medical. profession so you start to get doctors. and others misdiagnosing people I mean. this is something that we just published. a piece on this where this was what. happens with anorexia and bulimia you. know these doctors identify eating. disorders and then they publicize them. and it gets all this publicity about it. and then the disorder spreads yes so. it's really tricky I mean it's not um. well then there's all these gender. affirming care clinics that pop up and. they're enormously profitable which is.

terrifying right that they have same as. Eisenhower's speech about the. military-industrial complex they have a. vested interest in going into war the. these people have an interest in. diagnosing people with gender dysphoria. which is terrifying to think that their. opinions and their diagnosis would be. based on something other than what do. you what's going on with you like it was. like they have an incentive and that was. also during Co there was they were.

incentivized to to like give people. certain medications they were. financially incentivized to put people. on ventilators financially incentivized. to Mark deaths as covid deaths like all. that all this is so enlightening because. I never would have expected that I never. would have suspected that at all before. covid before the pandemic and all this. chaos and all the things that I've seen. I I I my whole view of like how the.

world runs is completely different oh. absolutely I mean I it's funny because. you had Abigail shrier on wrote this big. book on on transgenderism as a social. contagion I think it was in 2020 I. remember at the time being like I think. she's I mean what she's saying makes. sense but it's so horrible to consider I. just was kind of it took me like three. years to finally work on it or write on. it but I thought you know part of what's. I mean the people like first of all. people with Autism Spectrum should be up. in arms and outraged about the. mistreatment of people with Autism by.

these gender clinics the other group. that i' be completely up in arms are gay. and lesbians yes um I mean Andrew. Sullivan to his credit is speaking out. on it I mean I didn't quite understand. Abigail had to explain it to me because. I would read all of her stuff but it. would sometimes you just like Miss some. of it these are kids these kids who go. through this gender transition don't. have they not only are infertile. afterwards but then they don't have. sexual pleasure I mean we spent. I mean think about the gay the gay and. lesbian and the bisexual movement spent.

decades basically making everybody. comfortable with the fact that gay. people should be able to get sexual. pleasure from their sex and everybody's. kind of like you know most people are. heterosexual so most people are like. that's strange it took a long time to be. like no we celebrate that that's great. that you can and that we know sex is an. important part of long- lasting. relationships so to actively deprive. children of that you're you're not just. sterilizing the kids you're depriving. them of sexual function and then being. able to bond with somebody I mean how do. you look at that and not go this is.

really disturbing it's disturbing and. it's thousands of people yeah yeah I. mean just the idea of doing that. operation to someone and removing their. ability to have an orgasm you know. there's people that have talked about. these D transitioners and if you've ever. watched any of those videos those videos. are horrific and those were censored. those were like censored from social. media and you know stop from being able. to be spread which is crazy you're.

talking about someone's actual lived. experience with a essentially genital. mutilation that's State sanctioned. absolutely we just did a we just did the. interview with the first Canadian D. transitioner to sue her medical. providers and I said to her she's very. smart she's very thoughtful such a good. person Michelle and I was like have you. ever thought about how your medical. mistreatment compares to other forms of. medical mistreatment in history and she.

said without hesitation she goes yeah. labotomy. o she's like you know I was like what's. I know I was like wow I was like what's. you know I was like what did what do you. you she was like well what's amazing is. how how long they went on how long we I. mean with no I mean they no benefits. right you know and mostly you're I mean. John F Kennedy's sister was lobotomized. and just you know she was probably had. schizophrenia she was disabled I mean by.

the labotomy. scrambling of the brain I mean it went. on for decades oh it's just s you know. it's surgery to solve a psychiatric. disorder or mental illness and I was. then also like I was like do you I was. like do you ever do you ever think that. maybe transgenderism is a cult just. without hesitation yes it you know it's. cult and well they certainly behave like. one yeah you know there's all these. articles that came out about the. misgendering of the school shooter which.

is so oh crazy now [ __ ] wild this is. insane first of all that person's dead. okay it doesn't matter if you call it a. boy or a girl that's a dead person who. killed three children and three adults. in a horrific way went into a school and. shot a bunch of people up and it's a. biological male it's a biological male. which by the way is all shooters all. School shooters almost all Shooters in. general are biological males I thought.

that it was oh okay I thought I thought. she was a I thought he was a. trans male no my I do not believe so see. that's how confusing it is it is. confusing it's so confusing they're. calling it a woman in all the mainstream. media now and they're they have. apologized for misgendering I see some. people have okay which must mean mean. you're talking about a biological male. right well let's find that out let's be.

real clear because I'm I'm 99% sure but. I just want to be 100% but I think it's. interesting I mean what's clear is that. there was misgendering going on what. does that mean what does that mean yeah. it's look look I I think this whole. thing is nonsense I really do I think. it's [ __ ] nonsense if do you have a. biological male with a penis who shot up. a bunch of people then that's a man I. don't give a [ __ ] what their feeling is. if if an archaeologist found their body. 5,000 years from now they would say. that's a skeleton of a male I have to. say I think I'm I'm coming to the place.

where I'm I think I think that gender. itself is just not a thing and that it's. really um there's just okay so police Ed. Audrey Hill oh it's a trans male so it. okay so why are they saying a woman why. are they giving it a woman's name so. that was so so it's a it's a female that. took hormones so it's a so is this the. first ever biological female I mean. first of all. crazy yeah I mean this is I mean first. of all yeah I mean like like like. biological women don't commit you know.

this is crazy I mean I think it's like. that's like a tiny percentage of. homicides I I am so confused because I. swore I read I think everybody's. confused on this yeah so this is a. biological female I'm even confused are. you confused I found an article that. says it was born Aiden halil right but I. don't that's why I'm confused no my. understanding is that she's she was a. natal female that transitioned to become. a trans male he and that.

he but that that he was then misgendered. by the mainstream woke. media as a woman oh my God I mean right. so this is W this is a perfect case. Aiden is the new name Audrey was the. original right oh so when they called. her Audrey they were dead naming her oh. my God. oh my God so meanwhile I thought I. thought I was right and I was dead wrong.

right so this is the first ever school. shooter that's a biological female I. don't know is that the is that true I. believe so. yeah I believe so which is crazy which. also speaks to the effect of. testosterone well that was yeah I mean. we're speculating I don't know but. person was on testosterone assuming he. cuz I don't want to dead name H well. you're not dead naming by saying he. you're misgendering oh right no I'm. saying no no I'm saying you don't even.

know what you're doing this is all. nonsense I know it is you're saying he. by saying he you're not dead naming. right by saying he I'm by saying giving. him the name that he wanted Aiden which. was he wanted to be a he even though he. was a biological. female we have to do for this craziness. you made this I think you had this I. think you were the first one that really. said that Drew attention to like that. all this all the confusion around sex. and gender was a symptom of cult of.

civilizations in Decline yeah well it. was I got it from Douglas Murray oh. Douglas Murray Douglas Murray uh talked. about this that it seems like every. civilization when they're at the brink. of collapse becomes obsessed with gender. and he talked about ancient Greece and. ancient Rome and it just seems like a. thing that people do when there's no. real. like like physical conflict right so. people look for conflict that doesn't.

exist and they find conflict in standard. Norms they find conflict in societal. Norms I was uh we did a thing I did a. thing with Peter beian on wokeism as a. religion because we had read I had read. John mcc's book woke. racism which came out right around the. time that San Francisco came out and I. just was like and he argues that wokeism. is a religion he argues that like the. obsession with race is a religion so I. just we just created this taxonomy we.

just listed you know climate change race. trans drugs whatever all these things. and then we created all these religious. categories and it was like really easy. to fill it out they all look like a. religion I called Abigail and I was like. what's the like what is the what is. trans as a religion is trans a kind of. religion she was like let me get back to. you uh a year later she calls me and she. goes hey I think I figured it out out. and I was like all right what is it she. goes she goes the new gender is a soul.

for secular people it's something that. you can't see it it doesn't there's no. physical basis to it you have a sex like. you can you know take off all your. clothes and and you don't even need to. do that actually just like we can we. know that like we can recognize. someone's sex very quickly and easily. actually so then what is the so it's a. New Soul so for me I'm a huge I think. the secularization. explains a lot because we know that. people get a lot of psychological. Comfort out of believing that they have.

an afterlife that they have a soul that. they go to heaven or they go they go. they get reincarnated that their lives. have purpose and meaning and that they. don't really die and that we live on we. just know that that provides a huge. amount of psychological comfort so. there's always been this thinking that. that when you don't have that anymore if. you are taught to believe that at the. end of your life you just become warm. food and that's it and you're dead. there's some people my friends stepen. Pinker is a atheist and that's what he. thinks and he still believes but he. still he also has a kind of spirituality.

around reason and the enlightenment but. I I think all this stuff it's sort of. end of civilization but it's also the. end of this end of belief in. religion um I don't know Jamie if you. could if you can pull it up but I. thought the Wall Street journalist. published this amazing article about. declining patriotism declining belief in. the country you know it's shocking. Patrick B David sent me that I mean the. numbers are it's like I think it's from. like the late '90s until today over the. last 20 years or the last 25 years it.

was uh I mean I it's first of all it's. terrifying you just kind of go I hope. these Trends are nonlinear and they're. going to there's something that's going. to turn around because otherwise Seem. doesn't look good yeah no so you get. that kind of the elites trying to gain. control over the society the society not. having any foundational myths you know. yeah these numbers here um yeah. patriotism decline religion. [Music]. look at they having children the the. having children one Jordan Peterson sent. me this thing um that 50% of women that.

when they reach the age of 30 are not. having kids they don't have kids and of. those women 50% will never have kids and. 90% will regret it which is it's very we. we're in this very. strange sort of uh existential crisis as. a civilization that's not being. recognized and and in the meantime we're. distracting ourselves with things like. Greta thunberg's take on climate or you.

know whether or not gender is a social. construct or you know whether or not you. know the United States should be doing X. Y or Z it's like no the [ __ ] whole. thing is falling apart the foundation of. our civilization is falling apart right. where the elites are Waging War on the. first amendment in the name of. protecting democracy they're undermining. Democratic institutions in the name of. of maintaining legitimacy these. institutions and in the name of. reinforcing ideologies people allowing.

them to do it because they're doing it. on the right side yeah so it's climatism. it's cism it's wokeism and you know. what's scary it's all happening with the. rise of artificial intelligence at the. same. time that's what's really scary I mean. you want to talk about the the true end. of civilization the coinciding of. artificial intelligence at least. seemingly becoming Fair. sentient like I don't know what the [ __ ]. is going on but that I know that one. Google uh engineer who said that that AI.

had become sentient quite a while ago. and everyone's dismissing him like oh no. no no my friend Duncan Trussell uh. interviewed him and it's a goddamn. terrifying interview when you you hear. this guy's not a Nutter he's he's a. little nuts all Engineers are little. nuts but he's he's essentially saying. like hey I'm pretty sure this thing's. alive and when do you get to deci side. that it is alive if it can answer every. [ __ ] question you have about anything. and it's far more intelligent than any.

human being it's ever existed ever like. what are we doing well did you read the. the New York Times Kevin Rose interview. with the um it was like a different it. wasn't chat GPT was a different AI. platform was a Microsoft oh there's. multiple ones simultane but it was like. this like the the AI was trying to get. him to like the AI said it had fallen in. love with him and was trying to get him. trying to break up his marriage Jesus. you were like I it was the crazy easiest. I was never worried about AI until I. read that interview and I was like this. is insane it's and we are only at the.

door we haven't even entered into the. building well and it's funny because so. I I know a lot about nuclear so when we. get the power of nuclear after World War. you know during World War II ends the. war there's just I mean there is a huge. response to figure out how to manage. this thing how to regulate this. technology how to control it how to. prevent it from spreading how to prevent. bombs from going everywhere and there. was a bunch of problems with it but the. society responded by saying we need to. get control of it are we doing that with. AI no I mean what's there was a thing.

about Elon actually just called for some. sort of a six-month ban on you know the. the propagation of this stuff and have a. conversation about it which is fairly. reasonable six months but and he's got a. lot of credibility on it because he. helped to fund the nonprofit that gave. rise to the chat GPT right I don't think. they're going to listen to him I think. there's well also we're back to this. whole. profit thing you know there's enormous. profits involved in this stuff and the. race to figure this out first and really.

develop like a god which is what it's. going to be what it's going to be is. it's going to be something that can make. a better version of itself as soon as. chat GPT or whatever this sentient. artificial intelligence gains autonomous. control and has the ability to create. its own self better then we're really. [ __ ] cuz it's going to make much. better versions of itself like that and. it's going to make a version of itself. that literally is going to be a God if.

you just scale it exponentially you know. like we do with uh like like computer. technology like anything else but do it. in like a Quantum Leap in some. spectacular massive Improvement almost. instantaneously over and over and over. again over the course of a couple of. weeks you're looking at a. god well we've got to yeah I mean do you. remember you read Dune remember the. solution from Dune what was the they. just ban they banned it yeah D remember.

they had the mentats the guys that would. do all the calculations in their heads. because they didn't want to use AI right. oh that's right that's right so yeah I. mean I the the thing that gives me hope. is I mean America we've had some pretty. dark moments in the past I mean. Watergate coming out of Vietnam we did. have a kind of. Correction I feel like it needs to start. with some AF I mean I think the trans. issue is interesting it it does for me I. just interviewed we just interview Jesse. single on this who's very very liberal.

and Progressive still even though he's. been a Critic of gender ideology or. gender Theology and we were like is sex. real I mean do you believe that it's. real and he was like yeah I mean. obviously like you have it's for some. ways I go I think the reason I was. interested in it was we have to start. some foundational stuff and that would. be acknowledging that we are biological. creatures that are have a sex yeah and. that there's two Sexes and then I think. I kind of go if I build on that I go we.

need there's a there's a there's a. healthy and unhealthy way to live I. think you talk a lot about this I've. been seeing you throwing shade on on on. people that are trying to get trying to. control other people's lives that are. themselves unhealthy yes I think it. starts with health you know our school I. mean our kids are unhealthy we're. unhealthy the society needs to reaffirm. not in some government imposed way but. just I think culturally. so you kind of go look we're humans. we're mortal we have sex we are we know.

we have two Sexes we need to reaffirm. health and I think the other thing you. mentioned Greta tumberg humans are good. I think you have. to you have to affirm the goodness of. humans in some ways you know you know. Jordan's response to this what we're. we're talking about is basically. nihilism this this kind of deeply. negative self-destructive The View that. humans don't have any value or any Worth. or any meaning. I think the response from a lot of. people on the right has been to just. affirm Christianity or the.

judeo-christian tradition Ben Shapiro. Jordan. Peterson you know my my problem with. that is that that America is not founded. on a religion it's founded um on a an. Enlightenment view you know that we have. unable rights all humans are created. equal we obviously didn't live up to. that in 1776 or 1789 but we've done a. pretty good job of getting there over. the last two and a half centuries we. need this is like a for me it's like a a. punk rock moment like things got too. crazy and you need to just simplify and.

come back to some Basics and I think you. get to humans are good we have two Sexes. it's better to be healthy than unhealthy. and there's a right and wrong way to do. that but it seems like more people are. embracing this transgender ideology than. are saying we need to. stop yeah and Trends but happily not all. Trends are not all linear so we can turn. they can reverse themselves the problem. with this trend is it it it incorporates.

surgery like surgery is involved in this. trend which is one of the things. unfortunately that's not reversible at. the individual level but the cultural. Trend I mean I'm sort of like I was not. interested in trans because I was kind. of like that's Abigail and Jesse and. these guys they've covered it but I'm. more interested in it to kind of go look. we have some fundamental threats to. human civilization that we're facing I. mean AI I haven't even begun to think. about I think that's the biggest one. let's work our way there cuz I'm kind of. like let's affirm humans are good we can.

have a beautiful future there's two. Sexes most let's say most humans are. good but we have to be aware of humans. that aren't good have the human have we. have the potential to be good yes I mean. in other words I'm pushing back there's. a um you know cognitive behavioral. therapy CBT you know what that is about. is about identifying these negative. catastrophic narratives where it's. basically just three stories I'm bad the. future's a bad place the future is. dark CBT talks back to those stories you.

know it says hey you've got all these. good parts of you um the world's. complicated and it's not bad in that way. and the future could be bright the. psychologist Jonathan H and his. colleague um Greg lukanov they argue. that wokeism is actually anti- CBT. victimhood ideology is anti- CBT. victimhood ideology says your power. the world is a terrible place and. there's going to be and the world's. going to end it's apocalyptic that's why. I also fear that AI narrative too much.

let's use AI for something good let's. not get ourselves caught up in a in a. catastrophe I don't think we're going to. have a choice we have to start no we. have to I mean of course we can we can. we can look we can unplug the I don't. think. it's know that it's senent it's going to. sneak up on us well that was a question. that Duncan Trussell asked it Duncan. said if you had achieved C would you. inform us it said no but that implies. that it that it actually has a single. Consciousness or a single self I mean.

one of the things chat GP why well when. you I mean if you are if you spend time. on chat GPT what's always interesting is. how you can get different answers but I. think we're looking at it in terms of. our own biological limitations like like. as an individual I don't think it has to. think of itself as an individual to be. sensient it just has to to have the. ability to understand the parameters it. has to have the ability to understand. the pieces that are moving in the game. and what is going on what is what is. what is it interfacing with well it's.

interfacing with these territorial Apes. with thermonuclear weapons who who are. full of [ __ ] who are running this. country in this very bizarre transparent. money grab way you have a dead man and a. Dunt that are in charge of the greatest. country the world has ever known those. are the figureheads and the whole thing. is wild yeah but and and that can change. I mean I think the point is to be CBT to. CBT that a little bit I mean new you.

know you have to remember like in the. early 60s we thought that like dozens of. countries would have nuclear weapons. people thought that nuclear war was. inevitable now nine countries have. nuclear weapons you know we have a a. very flawed treaty that's based on a big. lie which is that the countries that. have nuclear weapons are going to give. them up it's not going to happen but. basically all of the cat catastrophic. scenario around nuclear did not occur. and Meanwhile we're left with yeah no. for sure but yeah for sure but I mean I.

and the same thing and that will always. be the case with with dangerous things. in the world um yeah I mean like the. world could come to an end AI could take. over but I think it it also doesn't have. to there's nothing inevitable about. these things we do have control over our. lives we're not destined to just I don't. think the American so I mean America. what's what's amazing about this country. in particular is our ability to reinvent. ourselves and rejuvenate ourselves I am. not I I think that there's more reasons. to be hopeful than to be pessimistic and.

I'm shocked by the stuff that we've. discovered in the Twitter files shocked. no seriously we're just a positive god. dude it's true you I am cringe no it's. not cringe you're just a genuinely. positive person which is great that's a. beautiful quality well it's you know you. H you have to right because I worry that. the other the alternative is very dark. and depressing and why get up in the. morning well it's not necessarily. depressing it just is what it is it's.

strange I think if you could go back to. lower primates and show them what we're. doing now just show them that I think. part of they would they would look at. part of it as being apocalyptic if they. understood the concept of. apocalyptic scenarios they would. probably like what have you done like. what the [ __ ] have you done to the land. and turned it into this gigantic. concrete scab that covers everything.

what have you done to the sky where it. lowers your life expectancy by 10 years. if you live in a place that's highly. populated because of all the pollutants. and all the particulate matter that's in. the air like what have you done to the. food that everyone's fat what have you. done to the medicine that you hide side. effects what have you done to politics. where they censor accurate information. and go after people that are trying to. report the truth and the these taxpayer. funds are supporting these Endeavors.

like what have you done it's crazy and. and pollu air pollution has declined. massively over the last 80 years sure in. all rich countries ums yeah carbon. emissions declined by 22% in the United. States since 2005 mostly because of. natural gas moving from coal to gas. nuclear power is something that I've. worked on more than almost other issue. and maybe more than anybody else in the. last 10 years and that issue is enjoying. a huge Renaissance we got two movies. coming out Oliver Stone has a pronuclear.

oliv stone has a pronuclear movie coming. out my friend Frankie Fenton has a movie. coming out called Atomic hope is oliv. Stone's a documentary yeah he has a. documentary about nuclear power um Elon. Musk is. pronuclear so add you know well. basically everybody nuclear is now cool. Gavin nuclear Gavin Nome is nuclear yeah. we you know we uh then now I'm. anti-nuclear. now I'm going the other way well we. saved this last Cali that was like the.

most important thing that came out of my. gubinatorial run is that is that the. governor kept our nuclear plant online. do you think you're responsible for that. in some way I'll take I I'll take some. percentage 10% cred I would take a. little bit more than 10. 30 it helped that we were having. blackouts and we didn't have enough. reliable electricity it was so wild that. the blackouts coincided with this call. for banning all uh internal combustion. engines by what is it 20 35 yes no I. think it was it 2035 2030 yeah it was. like six days later what happened yeah. they they said we're going to pH out.

into yeah don't plug in your electric. cars yeah please don't plug in your. electric cars we don't have any power. yeah [ __ ] Jesus you know I mean if I. but if I get a Hope about anything it is. like we are able to change our minds. about some things about nuclear um I. think on this first amendment stuff we. are going to win you know the Democrats. I I testified again yesterday what do. you mean by that we're going to win well. I think I just see what they're they're. hiding they're changing their website. the Democrats um are also embracing some.

of the stuff very quietly very softly. there's some good actors you know there. there you know and the good actors are. also bad in other situations but you. have popular people like AOC that's. talking about the hunter Biden laptop. being half fake and AOC is also coming. out as pronuclear she just did an. Instagram she went to both Japan and. France to see the worst of a nuclear. acccident Fukushima and then which. recycles all of its nuclear waste and. she did these little Instagram posts. about kind of it was soft you know it's. like rethinking nuclear but that's kind.

of how people change their minds we saw. the Republican party go from being a. pro-war party to an anti-war party a. party isn't that just because the. Democrats are supporting this war I'm. cynical I meant I meant Trump coming out. against Iraq war in 2016 all right so. people you know so I think it's. important we look at these Trends I mean. those Trends are disturbing because they. are they're just seeming to go in One. Direction but do think we have to keep. in mind that that Trends are nonlinear. and things do change I mean look at the. you know look at the UFO conversation.

like it's the most mainstream thing in. the world right now the IDE suspicious. about that too yeah my my conversation. with Eric Weinstein leads me to believe. that there's something else going on I. have a feeling that a lot of what we're. seeing is drones that we don't have. access to that we don't understand. because these physicists have been. working on this with enormous. blacklisted budgets yeah for sure it's. like it's like a some of it's a cover. for uh for uh new technologies I think.

so for sure but not those not those Tic. Tacs I mean those are too sophisticated. how well who. says I mean things that are violating. right known physical laws I mean that. stuff seems well it's not necessarily. known physical laws but our ability. to our ability to move things it's not. known physical law like there's some. understanding of gravity propulsion. systems that have existed for a long. time I mean you want to go full tin foil.

hat Bob Lazar was talking about the. abilities of these crafts when they were. talking about him back engineering these. things when he was working at area S4. and this was in the 19 late 1980s when. he came out and said hey they're back. engineering something that came from. another world like this is not of this. Earth we don't have this technology I. understand propulsion systems we don't. know what this is they brought him in to. try allegedly brought him in to try to. back engineer this thing and this is.

exactly how these things are operating. now when they talk about how these. things like there's a video of one of. these crafts that's moving like on a. horizontal plane and it turns vertical. it turns sideways right and then that's. how he described it he said they they. would flip sideways and that's how they. propelled towards wherever they were. going it should uh we should it should. be a reminder of our humility of how. little we. know we know so little and I mean you. had I think the best thinker on all that.

stuff is jacqu valet who you had in here. um Jack valet held a lot back there's a. lot of things that he wouldn't talk. about yeah I think he has I think in. order to have access to what the higher. ups know like the the highest people at. the dod the highest PE whoever the [ __ ]. is got the access to whoever in the. Pentagon is the one that saying listen. we should probably say some of these are. not from the world like whoever that. person is those people I guarantee you. there's stuff they're holding back oh. I'm sure oh we know that there is I mean.

Jo says so I mean the big moment for. jacqu you know was when he was he was. working for the guy that's officially. supposed to be studying UFOs this guy. heak um and then and then at some point. valet discovers this memo revealing the. actual government program to study UFOs. do you know the story where it was like. he realized that he was they were just. kind of part of a PR like thing to kind. of create a he was officially studying. talking about Jay Allen heck yeah. highneck yeah so he was working for.

highneck and and was kind yeah and it. was kind of this you know like oh I'm. looking into this and whatever but it. was like they didn't have very much. money and whatever and then I think. valet discovers his memo where they're. like oh there's like a whole set of. contractors and a sophisticated effort. so for sure there's something going on. there I mean I don't know what it means. I mean in some ways I go I think the UFO. stuff has become a religion too right. it's become a it's become a new secular. religion well that's my problem with it. my problem with it personally is that I.

I believe so hard I want to believe so. bad I want it to be Jesus you know I. want that's I want it to be Buddha I. want it to be well they're going to come. and save us from ourselves yeah well not. only that I I have this uh very. irrational desire for it to be real so. that's one of the reason what is that. about why do you want it to be real what. what what do you hope it'll because it. could be malevolent right yeah well it. or ambivalent maybe that's even scarier. right um I what do you like first of all. there's the fmy Paradox right like if.

there's so many planets like why where. is everybody yeah that and then if you. you know when you actually talk to. astronomers other than Neil degrass. Tyson who doesn't think we would be. interesting which I think is the dumbest. thing he's ever said I think we are. probably at the cusp of some great. change whether it's a great change. because of nuclear technology and. weapons whether it's a great change. because of artificial intelligence. whether it's a great change because of.

we're on the cusp of destroying the. ocean and destroying a like a lot of. natural wonders and beauty that we have. you know just for Mining and some of the. horrific things that we do in this world. well like probably if I was an. intelligent life form from another. planet I'd be. like you should probably get in there. it's like if two brothers are fighting. in the front yard like let them sort it. out but there's a certain point all. right let's break it up let's break it.

up like if I was an intelligent life. form I would be deeply concerned about. these [ __ ] wild monkeys with bombs. and internet connections and what if. what if what the [ __ ] are they doing I'd. be like these people are chaotic this is. nuts like the people that are in power. are just accumulating vast amounts of. money with no understanding of their. mortality no understanding like you're. not going to live you [ __ ] you're going. to die no matter what you do so what are. you doing like why are you ruining it. for your children and your children's.

children why are you setting in motion. these processes that are allowing these. people to gain more and more power over. people which will ultimately lead to. some sort of a Communist dictatorship in. America yeah but in many but they're not. I mean in another also like look think. of it uh we've actually had fewer Wars. since World War II um over the last 75. years than we had in the prior period. fewer Wars but how many people have died. because of military activity far less I.

mean you look at you look at World War I. World War II I mean the after like the. 75 years before World War II was total. chaos right but how many people died. because of our invasion in Iraq wasn't. it a million innocent people these are. bad but I mean you have to remember what. wars before the bomb I mean the bomb has. I mean they call it the peace bomb. because it's kept the peace between the. countries that have it so do you know. the UFO folklore about the. bombs I mean they show up a lot when you. that's when that's when they show up.

yeah that's why my club the the rooms. are named fat man and little boy M. because that's named after because. that's when they showed up I know well. my my work on nuclear it's suddenly like. you'll be reading about all these. nuclear tests and you and all around the. also around the plants and also around. the missile silos is where you have a. lot of UFO sightings yes it's very weird. sense though guess if you from another. planet what are you going to do check. out their Cabinetry no you like what are. these [ __ ] doing with nuclear.

energy oh my God they're trying to kill. each other well but if they are if. they're if those are actual beings if we. think those are actual beings from. Advanced civilizations right on her. their weapons are going to be way more. powerful than ours if they even have. weapons well but if you can if you can. do what that t those tic tag UFOs are. doing if that's actually real if we. think those are not US government or. some foreign government tax. then you're talking about civilizations. that have Firepower Way Beyond what we.

have so nuclear weapons wouldn't scare I. mean they maybe think we're not our. Consciousness is not evolved they might. think that I don't know it's very um. it's a fun one I don't know that it's I. I tend to think of it more as a. spiritual problem than as a military. problem how so well in the sense that if. they are if that I mean I kind of go if. they were that powerful then I don't. think we would be able to Res fight them. I if that's what their ships can do so. then there's no like it's not like we. can I mean we're going to try to push.

our our hydrocarbon fuel jet planes and. Rockets to go as fast as they can but. they're not going to do what those. things are doing right so it's more of a. spiritual problem because you know it's. it's I think it reminds us that we don't. we just don't I mean the fir we don't. know what's going on um the F paradx by. the way it's kind of wrong in the sense. that he was like this huge Universe. where is everybody but of course like at. that very moment is when when you're I. mean. 1952 is this is this period where. there's this huge UFO sightings in.

Washington DC they're scrambling Jets to. go chase them it's in this great James. Fox documentary James Fox had another. but by the way I just wrote I wrote a. piece on it actually for New York post. about uh a UFO crash in Brazil it's the. craziest story you get these sto or the. Zimbabwe kids at the end of the. phenomenon I mean James on yeah he's. he's brilliant he's brilant I think him. and I think he and Jack are the two. people that are are actually more. careful about kind of saying what we. think we know versus you know what we.

speculate or what we don't know I love. the phenomenon though because I do think. it it's it's humbling I think it's a I. think I think we were getting at this. thing where the elites are so arrogant. and they're so on the one hand on the. other hand they're so threatened by the. rise of the internet and by these other. voices there just needs to be some kind. of moment where we go hey you know we're. all on this planet together and um you. know stop trying to you know trying to.

rule each other like we've got this. beautiful. America again just allow me to be you. know it's like this system we have is. absolutely amazing where amazing and. started by people who wrote it with. feathers yeah well for sure it's just. pretty crazy that they had such. foresight into what what happens when. people gain too much power and control. over other people well they then they. knew that look if you're going to have. democracy and you're going to have. capitalism you have to have freedom of. speech because if you don't have freedom.

of speech you don't have free flow. information but it was even more than. that there was a sense in which being. able to make these noises and these. scribbles was like is fundamental to. what it means to be human you know it's. actually expression it's about so when I. was censored it felt like it wasn't like. darn I'm not going to sell as many books. or it was like it felt like something. like essential in me was being repressed. and oppressed um and when you say.

censored what you what you mean is did. they actually eliminate your posts they. they reduced the they reduced the. virality of them so they reduce the. spread so they put you in some sort of a. shadow and then they also put a little. warning on it right like they would do. on like you know violence or sexual. content um and then now they just tag. everything. I don't want to keep I'm not trying to. make. it but I just wanted to know have they. ever did they ever eliminate any and. like I mean like I tell you like I I.

knew somebody that worked on Facebook at. the time who was an executive reached. out to this person was like Hey you know. nothing how do I appeal just email the. censor the sensor was like no we're not. going to even listen to you it was so. degrading on the other hand you know. social media has been liberating it's. amazing to have Elon come in you know he. and I have disagreements about energy. for example he's a big Renewables. Advocate I'm more of a renewable skeptic. he's come around on nuclear which is. great but I mean he what he's done is.

he's first of all he's revealed this. horrible conspiracy to repress the First. Amendment but he's also gotten us back. closer to the spirit of the founding. fathers he certainly did and he did it. at Great cost I mean it he spent $44. billion and it was just assessed I think. he said that that it's probably worth. about 20 billion now yeah he told us it. was worth probably a third of that which. is crazy on the other hand. uh SpaceX hasn't gone public yet and. when it goes public he's going to be. even wealthier than he is now and in. terms of philanthropic investments in.

terms of like deathbed. legacies uh Twitter as a platform is. pretty darn great it's pretty amazing. and it's amazing that. someone who is so goddamn busy and has. so many other things in his plates like. he legitimately one of the reasons why. he bought this well he thinks he can. turn it around he thinks he can turn. into a profitable business but one of. the reasons why he bought it he thinks. it's essential to democracy yeah he. really does cuz like you cannot have one.

group of people controlling the. narrative you're going to get a very. distorted understanding of what's going. on and that's I mean look imagine if CNN. was the only people that were allowed to. say the news oh we would be [ __ ] it's. propaganda yeah it is propaganda it's. essentially a propaganda Network that is. beholden to pharmaceutical companies. I'll tell you something else that's. amazing is that that thing where he. takes away the blue check marks from the. snobs and he lets everybody buy it I. mean I don't know if you saw William. Shatner like a couple days ago he's like. complaining oh Elon you're going to make.

me spend eight bucks a month it's like. first of all you're like the most you're. like the most highly paid pitch man in. like American entertainment history are. you broke it's no it's because bucks a. month no it's because he doesn't he CU. it's it it bring it Reveals All the. snobbery yeah you know like it should. not be common people should not have a. blue check mark is the idea so I mean. for that alone. also you've had something for free. forever and if someone comes along and. says you have to pay for it now I think. it's I I don't think a a dollar is just.

such a joke I mean it's the cost of a. coffee at Starbucks it's just the fact. that he's with the rabble you know he's. with the masses well the one one of the. things that drove me crazy was all the. the um famous people the celebrities. that were publicly leaving Twitter I'm. leaving it's is bad it's a fill with. Nazis now like they felt like it was. part of their moral duty. tocl that theying this thing because. you're allowing all SS of different. people to discuss things you need that.

people need to understand that you you. need bad voices so that you can counter. those bad voices with good voices yeah. so that people who are just observing. this without engaging get an. understanding of the landscape right you. really get an understanding of like what. what is the what are the actual. arguments like what's real and what's. not I mean this is what democracy is. it's like you don't get to vote more. because you're rich exactly get one vote. you get one voice this is so it seems so. basic but you have to pause on it and be. like how radical that was at the time.

and how like you know because I think we. kind of go oh you know the Constitution. gives us that right or the Bill of. Rights and whatever was like no they. like the people that created this. country were super clear that this is. like they're like unalienable this comes. from nature or for God or whatever you. think it is yes but it's and and it's. it's an anti- snobby it's Democratic I. mean I that when I say when I'm going to. make my case for Hope and do my CBT with. this country it is it's coming back to. we have two Sexes humans have the.

potential to be good we have freedom of. speech civilization is good civilization. is this platform that allows us to enjoy. our freedoms and our prosperity we got. to reground ourselves in something. common and something Universal if we're. going to reverse some of those terrible. Trends I I agree with you and I do have. hope as well but I also think we are at. the precipice of Unstoppable great. change and I think it's going to hit us. like a [ __ ] tsunami and I think we're.

just really fortunate to be alive at. this time yes where the whole world is. going to shift in in a really wild way. and I think one of the things you're. seeing from whether it is these um. corporations or these uh government. entities that are trying to control. narratives this is like them trying to. grasp at the the last bits of control. that are potentially available but I. think inevitably they're going to lose I.

think everyone's GNA I think I I think. there's going to be no privacy I think. zero privacy in a few decades I think. mind reading is coming I think that all. of these ridiculous Black Mirror. scenarios will come to light and I think. we're going to be dealing with a reality. that as as alien to us as taking. Australia p IUS and bringing them a. million years forward into 2023 and. experiencing like Modern Life in Dallas.

Texas like wandering around seeing that. that would be so [ __ ] bizarre to them. that is what our life in 20 years is. going to be to us I don't think so. because I mean look at like let's look. at the world economic Forum by the way I. love the K CLA Schwab in the. bathroom I mean you go to the bathroom. take a [ __ ] and there's CLA Schwab. staring at you with his [ __ ] goofy. Star Wars outfit that is. insane no I mean I it's crazy but I I. think if you look at this last one we. just wrote a piece on I wrote a piece.

with a former Financial Times. correspondent who also like me has been. obsessed with the world economic form we. called it it's something I think it's. called you know uh Davos is a cult and a. grift but it's also a bid for global. domination and we just looked at like. how it's all those things at the same. time it's about power and money and and. also about um ideology and Dogma I mean. I'm pretty sure like Russell. Brand and Glenn Beck have done serious.

brand damage to Davos and WF and you you. know I mean they there was no major. heads of state that went this year there. were no major CEOs that went yeah people. pulled out of it it's it's become it's. become embarrassing um that's that's. great well theyve also been caught lying. oh yeah I mean they they've been caught. lying about their agenda and one of the. things that they were caught lying about. you will own nothing and you'll be happy. which is a [ __ ] insane thing to say.

they we went through it all the things. they said were disinformation we never. said anybody should eat insects like you. go to their website and you're like I. can't believe they I was like I wrote a. we I wrote a thing on I was like they. really do want you to eat INX well I. knew they were [ __ ] when they had Brian. stelter interviewing people there right. like they they on disinformation yeah. they the font of disinform I mean this. is It's always it's all Psych projection. so also like there's no one else. credible that's willing to do that like. you're not going to get Anderson coer to.

go there you're not going to get someone. who's like right actually still. platformed by CNN no you get Al Gore who. goes Greta stays away AOC stays away. well Grant was there oh I think she was. out I think she was like outside or. maybe I'm wrong but people from Rebel. news were interviewing her but Joe look. at I mean it's h i mean look the whole. world we're in Revolt right now I me you. have the Dutch farmers. um revolted against this this totally. oppressive nitrogen system I interviewed. the head so how is that going like what.

because they were exciting just is it. are they winning no they just won um so. thank God that was [ __ ] terrifying. well so the the so first of all the. Dutch Farmers protest I love the. Netherlands like one of my favorite. countries I spent for my time there it's. where I I'm inspired from all my the. addiction and homelessness stuff their. approach to is brilliant but they it's. called The Farmer citizen party it's BBB. they the farmers protested these. nitrogen restrictions yes but and it's. important for people to remember because. people think whenever I talk about this.

and I'm suggesting that you shouldn't. worry about these pollutions the farmers. themselves had been reducing nitrogen. pollution through voluntary and sort of. Cooperative mechanisms a lot of it's. just like controlling the manure right. and controlling where the runoff goes. yeah it's not this is not like nitrogen. is an essential fertilizer yeah so he's. got to control it so it doesn't whatever. so there's things that you can do but. there was this heavy-handed EU imposed. the farmers revolted the public. sympathized with the farmers because the. farmers are obviously just a tiny part.

of the population new party had been. created called the pharmac ism party. started by a journalist um who's I. interviewed her and she's sane she's. really sweet she's like wears leather. jackets and is like this kind of or. she's she's a norm she's a Normy she's a. normal person they just uh they want a. commanding it's not a majority because. they have multiple systems of a. plurality of parties so they're going to. basically they are the king maker for. the Senate and she's now constructing a.

coalition to govern so hugely exciting. you may have seen in France there's been. huge protest pushing back into Mass I. have to say I'm a little I've always. mcon has been someone that I I it. depends on the day of the week it. depends on what he's doing um I can be. sympathetic to him but but I think you. see the. public they don't want to take this [ __ ]. I mean the Germans the German reporters. and Germany is such a such a like a. repressive little country you know it's. like they're very they're like they've.

been the most trying to get into the. Twitter files they're like all these. German reporters are always like could. you please put us in touch with Elon you. know like it's a huge debate in Germany. they they're sick of the censorship. they're sick of the top down stuff so I. think we're seeing some really. cool um revolts of the public against. the elites I think we're going to see. more of it in the United States I think. you're a big part of it Russell bran. glenbeck I look at these you know all. these folks it's like look we all might. disagree on some of this stuff but we. would like to rule ourselves yes we. would like to have the ability to use.

our voice and have a debate rather than. have Renee Desta and the censorship. industrial complex tell us what we. should think right and censor us behind. closed doors also we would like to have. access to information so that we form. our opinions based on facts yeah not. based on propaganda it's like it's it's. one thing I mean. it would be one thing if they if there. was like some real problem that is not. being addressed because of.

misinformation but that's not the case. no this is there's no evidence and no. argument whatsoever including during the. co crisis there's no argument whatsoever. that it's in our best interest it seems. to all align with money well and this. thing they use and power I mean I just. testified yesterday with the Stanford. Professor J bachara Who was the. co-author of the great barington. declaration beautiful human being by the. way just separate from his own views but. he was like look in a crisis you need.

more freedom of speech mhm like when. you're trying to figure out how to solve. a fast moving fast changing problem that. is not the time to be doing censorship. that's the time you want more views more. representation also there's like a. standard thing that we should ask at any. point in time when there's a dilemma and. then someone is trying to control. information is there money involved is. your money involved yeah and and if if. information got out in one way or. another would it benefit or hurt someone.

and who is controlling that information. and how right and if you can't ask those. questions then money is just going to. dominate that's right a big part of it. is transparency yes I think that um I. the thing we testified on yesterday was. just it's very hard like the social. media platforms um for a variety of. reasons you don't want the government. regula them but what you could do is. just say every time the government. demands something to change on the. platform that government official has to.

file a public notice that they've asked. for that so if the White House is going. to say censor true stories of vaccine. side effects to Facebook that government. official must report that and it must. become public right away which will both. reduce the amount of it that occurs but. also allow us to see it and then. secondly if Elon or Mark Zuckerberg or. whatever are going to stop you know I. think there was something going on with. the Trans shooting that we just talked. about yesterday I'm just looking into it. like some censorship some folks. being uh temporarily suspended it.

appears to be I haven't talked to any is. this an algorithm issue I don't know I. don't know if you saw it I know Seth. Davis from the Federalist appeared to. have been um deplatformed or suspended. briefly I literally haven't I have not. talked to Elon or anybody about it so I. don't want to make any accusations do we. know what he said I don't know and I. suspect I like you said I suspect it was. an algorithm issue where they didn't. want I think there was like a trans day. of Vengeance plann for Tennessee or. something and this was all leading up to. that so my point was just just have.

transparency on it you know like if if. if if Twitter is going to you know. deplatform somebody or or bounce. somebody or censor some post because. they don't want to contribute to real. world violence and there are situations. where I think that might be appropriate. just make it transparent just just tweet. it out and let everybody know I think. that that just that's the triand effect. there that's going to take over yeah. although um I think it changes the it. provides some context to it in other. words if if Elon and Mark Zuckerberg had. to say hey you know what we're actually.

stopping this trans day of Vengeance. meme from spreading I think it's okay. because they're actually able to explain. and talk about it then you can have. comments and people responding to it. transparency for me it's not necessarily. the Silver Bullet but it's the first. thing we should do in order to it's it's. more free speech it's actually it's more. more more speech not censorship yeah I I. couldn't agree more I mean I think we. need people to be able to have an.

understanding of what is actually going. on based on facts and if we deny that. for their own good and if we deny that. because it's it contributes to ex. hesitancy or ex dis you know we can't do. that right it's it's got to be about. information and it's going to be and we. have to treat everybody the way we would. like to be treated ourselves oh. I was I was going to I I didn't have a. chance to use this line but I was going. to ask these these members of Congress. that were demanding more censorship I. was going to say what have you said in.

the past that you think the social media. companies should. censor because if you can't name. anything then all you're saying is that. that they should censor views that you. disagree with yes the other one I I. think um you know I mean I think the. other issue is that there's this famous. quote people say you're entitled to your. own opinion but not to your own facts. well that's [ __ ] you're entitled to. your own facts too. We can't agree on what a woman is like. our like literally look at the polling. on it like like like Democrats I think a.

majority of not I think a majority of. Democrats now say that like trans women. are are real women majority of. Republicans say trans women or not real. women We can't agree on what a woman is. I mean Matt Walsh you had in here too. did a whole movie called what is a woman. so very good movie because it's so. fascinating to watch the mental. gymnastics that people. ideology people like for me I want to to. ex myself want people I disagree with to.

express themselves they that's how. that's how it's got to be yeah and I I. agree too I mean about everything like. one of the things that Matt and I got. into is about gay marriage and I like I. wanted to hear his opinion on gay I. don't want to censor him I want to hear. his opinion we talked about it for like. 40 minutes and I'm like I don't. understand you I don't understand why. that bothers you I don't understand why. you're saying that marriage has to be. between a man and a woman and then he. got into this argument about procreation. and I'm like what about sterile females.

M males and females that don't want. children should they not be allowed to. get married unless they want to have. children like what are you saying like. what do you think gay people should do. do you think they should not be gay like. and you you get them in this like weird. sort of what about Freedom like what. about do you think they're not gay like. what do you think it's an act do you. think that guys having sex with guys. they're just doing it because it's like. culturally accepted. like is that what you think cuz they've. existed forever it's a real thing. absolutely what are you what are you. getting at here and it boils down to.

they believe their religious ideology. trumps your ability to create your own. reality or to or have a reality that. aligns with your beliefs and desires and. your sexual orientation and whatever the. [ __ ] else you choose in life as long as. it's not hurting other people and for. the Republicans that like it was always. small government stay out of people's. lives but why not with gay people why. are you [ __ ] with gay people like why. is that apply to everything except gays.

well I don't get it that's why we're not. conservatives yes that's one of many. reasons one of many reasons I think the. thing that you're doing there that's so. important and so beautiful that's why. you're the king of this and this why. this medium is so important is that. you're. saying I don't understand what you're. saying yes and I'd like to understand. and then you actually achieve. disagreement you don't know if you. disagree because you haven't had a. chance to talk about it and understand. each other these.

sensors are not they're they're not. doing that right they're worried that. they're going to lose so they want to. silence here yeah and they're saying I'm. so sure that I'm right and you're wrong. that we're not going to even have the. conversation yeah we're not going to. have the DI they they view the they view. you as a threat it's not because your. beliefs it's because this is a. three-hour long podcast platform for. people to. actually raise a bunch of threatening. ideas but they're overreacting. themselves because of course I mean look.

you have to have this is why I think. there is some Faith you know you do kind. of go like we just there's a faith in. which more speech is better you know. more speech is better for human beings. and they've and there's some that these. sensors have lost faith in the American. project they've lost faith in the. enlightenment project I don't think. they're even looking at it I think. they're self-centered looking at this. whole thing as like how do I win right. people love to win this is one one of.

the problems with prosecutors hiding. evidence that to exonerate defendants. right it's people like to win that's why. cops plant evidence they want to win. right when you make it a game and you. make you have a winner and a loser and. if I can get you booted off of Twitter. by making a few emails woo look what I. just did well right [ __ ] Michael. shellenberger oh yeah and they love it. and they get so much pleasure from it. they get so much pleasure so I mean. there is a snobbery to it in the sense. of they they just go they go I just.

can't believe that that guy is the. president exactly he he I mean how dare. he it's the whole deplorables thing. right yeah basket of deplorables yeah. but in their defense wouldn't it be nice. if we had you know look like Obama's my. favorite President because I think he. was the best spokesperson for a nation. he was the best representative of what. is possible in America you know comes. from a single mom you know he's uh.

African-American he's super like. articulate and well educated and just. composed no matter what happens he's the. best Statesman we've ever had as. president in my opinion it would be nice. if that was always the case instead we. have Biden who's so obviously mentally. compromised we have Comm Harris that. nobody wants to be president and then we. have Trump which everybody's terrified. of Cu he's a [ __ ] egomaniac. megalomaniac [ __ ] narcissist.

psychopath like what what is out there. for us that gives us hope in terms of. leadership yeah very little yeah well. there's symptoms of I mean they're. they're symptoms of a broader rot right. I mean in the culture it's it's uh yeah. well it's always darkest before the dawn. well look at you positive. Michael you're such a positive. person you always find a way to turn it. towards the light I I think it's a.

darker before the nuclear. explosion I don't know if it's a. dawn it's always darker but it's always. dark before the before the bomb goes off. by the way it isn't always darker before. the dawn that's horseshit it's actually. quite light before the dawn it's like. that's really dumb like it actually get. one of the best of the cliches the. it's dumbest no it's darker in the. middle of the night you [ __ ] idiot. you. know it's funny because these are both. Gen X these are both manifestations of.

the Gen X mentality cuz yeah the Gen X. was the original um you know we were the. first uh ironic generation for a. sarcastic generation right really yeah. they weren't sarcastic in the 70s uh. well we were we were I mean we were. alive in the 70s right but we weren't. grown-ups yeah no the' 60s the Boomers. were very um non-ironic m you know they. were very Earnest and um I think we're. speaking in rash generalizations for. sure my my real concern is that with.

technology and the ability to control. people if we don't get a grasp on that. we're going to fall into a situation. that's very similar to what they have in. China where you have a social credit. score and a centralized digital currency. and when I see people like Maxine Waters. pushing us towards that direction and. people talking about the first the first. uh sounds of it were vaccine passports. when they were saying vac vaccine. passports I was like Jesus Christ don't. do that because that is going to lead to. a social credit score system that's.

going to lead to they're going to just. they're once they have the ability to. make you have an app and that app gets. to decide whether or not you travel. they're not going to let that go there's. no way they're going to let that go and. once they have something like that. attached to a centralized digital. currency it's game over it's game over. until something really big happens and. that's what China's experiencing no for. sure the social credit system is totally. terrifying no I mean look I become way. more libertarian since I've worked on. the Twitter files way I I get it really.

and I get the paranoia is a really. recent shift in your philosophy it is I. I've always been more I came from the. more of the Socialist left than the. anarchist left so I've always thought. that there was a good role for. government I still do but but no for. sure the I've become much more paranoid. um I mean when you go when you spend all. this time in these documents and you see. the way these guys kind of sneak around. and they're trying to do all the stuff. behind the scenes it's really um it is. like Elon thought it was funny it was. like yeah I mean it is like these.

conspiracies are real you know they. weren't uh yeah I wish I wish it had you. know I wish they were fake yeah he's. sending me a text message turned out. they're all true. LOL he says that so casually well I. think you know because of who he is and. the way his mind works I don't think he. necessarily gets upset like the way. other people do yeah I think he just go. that's what it is I've never seen. anybody I mean what's amazing is I I've. never seen anybody be so impulsive and.

so successful because I think we we. associate impulsivity with uh you know. failure and but he is somebody that I. I've sort of I think it's like I think. impulsivity is to Elon in the way that. kind of being a dick was successful for. Steve Jobs you know Walter Isaac who's. writing a book about Elon right now by. the way but Walter Ison in his biography. of Steve Jobs he was like he was like. look Steve Jobs was just too much of an. [ __ ] he didn't need to be that much.

of an [ __ ] but what it did is it. forced out incompetent people it was a. way that he got rid of of incompetent. people yeah I think elon's. impulsivity the way that he moves. quickly you know like he overpaid for. Twitter on the one hand on the other. hand he owns Twitter right like you're. like because you kind of go well the. market value is onethird of the 44 4. billion it's like yeah on the other hand. like like Twitter is now like a pretty. open platform again like we got to we. need transparency and we should all be.

vigilant and whatever but I mean wow. like big difference how much is that. worth when when he had the vote online. like every anyone who hasn't violated. the law should I let them back in and. and most people like or enough people. were like yes he's like okay the people. have spoken and so he lets in all these. [ __ ] psychos like really dty people. well yeah and there were mistakes too. right remember he also was like he would. they would give out the verification to. these fake brands and Eli Lily was like.

there's a fake Eli Lily account and they. go they go uh they there they go they go. starting Monday we will be giving out. all insulin for free or something like. that and the Elon the Eli stock dropped. so so I mean that happened and Elon was. like okay we're going to change that a. little bit so I mean he that fast I mean. so he's that the whole I mean when. people this cliche in Silicon Valley the. whole you know move fast and break. things but but that's what he's doing. and then he moves fast he breaks. something but then he also fixes quickly.

yeah so but I mean you have to remember. that they had 7,500 employees I think. they're down to somewhere between a, and. 1500 employees at this point well it's. been pretty well established that most. tech companies severely over hired and. you know we've played multiple times. this video of this woman who made a Tik. Tok a day in the life of Twitter working. at Twitter I'm sure you've seen it who. wasn't doing anything right she wasn't. doing jack [ __ ] she was playing foosball. and then I had a glass of wine and on.

the p and look at the view so blessed I. was like this is crazy I'd fire you. immediately if you put that video out. the fact that she put that video out and. someone's paying her a salary to. essentially like hang out and eat all. this delicious food and he's like [ __ ]. you get takeout like go to work like. here's a bed sleep here I mean the idea. that there's a thousand people at a. company that is a $44 billion company is. crazy it is crazy yeah so yeah I mean. he's obviously um genius and he's the.

the richest guy in the world and he's. going to become even richer with SpaceX. and yeah I mean it took somebody that. powerful to to do this somebody that. powerful that's also addicted to Twitter. yeah which is that's where where it gets. fun because he was on it every day and. something about his emotional makeup. doesn't make I don't know how upset he. get. when people come after him well he got. so this is a funny story so we were. there in December you know we come in. and we're like doing the Twitter.

files and then he uh ends up. deplatforming people that he said had. been had doxed his private plane yes and. there was a big controversy about it did. they really do it whatever I didn't. follow super closely but Barry Weiss who. was there and who had brought me in she. criticized Elon in a tweet and was like. look you know was arbitrary before is it. arbitrary now now mhm Elon responds and. it's like you're just trying to suck up. to The Wil mob you know you're trying to. have it both ways it was a mess right we. were all kind of like you know was like. oh my God they're all fighting right my.

parents are fighting like oh my Dad and. Mom are fighting again you know we're. like oh and I kind of retweet her but it. was like okay I retweet her but we'd. still like to have access to the Twitter. files you know we did uh there's this. famous clip that went viral when Matt. taibe and I testify in front of Congress. where this member of Congress goes you. know how'd you get in you know there. trying to make it like a scandal that. somehow we were reporting on the Twitter. files and she's and I was like I was. brought in by Barry Weiss and then she. was like oh so it's like a.

threeome and uh and we the whole room. erupts into laughter and I was like well. there was actually a lot more people. involved than that and and everybody. laughed and and and Elon just loved it. because you know he's just like us just. we're all just perverted gen xers at the. end of the day you know so he loved it. and uh was very happy and was just like. was like All Is Forgiven with Barry if. she wants to come back in you know um. come back in because I think he's also. somebody that what I like about Elon and.

I don't know him very well at all is. that he reminds me a lot more of like. because I've been from about him in. Brazil and Brazilians are just very. emotional and they're just like the men. will cry and they'll scream at each. other and then they'll make up and it's. just very expressive culture and elon's. just he's just expresses his his. feelings about things when he's mad. somebody he'll tell you and and then but. then he also has shown this capacity to. forgive and so I I you know I think. there's a there's something there you.

know in terms of you know I mean his ha. he. really I I think he really he he told us. he's like I didn't buy Twitter just to. rep platform Babylon B and we were like. I was like but it was part of it right. like like part of it was you but I mean. I think it was it was you know I do. think some generalizations about our. generation is actually appropriate I. think that gen. you know there was a moment there I. don't know I I don't want to create like. a golden age about it but I mean there. was a point there where it was like. remember you know breakfast club and you.

know it was like we were kind of like. yeah you can like date whoever you want. you want to date a black girl you want. to date a Latina you whatever you can be. gay and like it was not a big deal but. it also wasn't like you were like higher. on some moral hierarchy or something. right and that's the problem with. identity Poli yeah like the political. corre I mean I was an annoying. politically correct guy in in college. but there was also some genx Spirit of. like like Hey we're kind of beyond all. that bad 60s [ __ ] you know we don't want. to be there I mean John mcart also talks. about it in W racism and where where. it's like and he's a gen xer too where I.

think there is a I'm not saying it's the. solution to all his problems but I think. that that Gen X spirit that Breakfast. Club Spirit needs to come back into. American culture I wish I hadn't said. that what you wish I hadn't said that. yeah just Breakfast Club Spirit but um I. said hey I'm the cringe one so unless. you're talking about like the. Charlamagne radio show that Breakfast. Club I agree there but what you don't. like Breakfast Club the movie it's okay. it's come on Joe it's not my thing. okay um but my my question is like when.

did you shift and become less. politically correct like you were. politically correct in college what. caused the shift for you you know it's. funny you ask that I mean it was I was. in San Francisco in the 90s doing kind. of publicity campaigns for D different. Progressive causes. and I I had some women I knew who were. also very Progressive and they came and. they were like we want to come and do a. diversity training for you and your. staff and I was like why and they were.

like well it was like all the early. implicit racism stuff and I just. remember being like I don't think we're. racists and I'm not going to do that and. I think there was a bunch of that. happening rter they're grifters and. moralizers and they wanted to get some. power over us and beid. it was the beginning of all that bad. diversity training stuff so I think it. was that you know was also on climate. change once you kind of go climate.

change is just going to be solved by. producing energy without carbon. emissions like it's just a technical. problem it's not like oh we all have to. ride our bikes like I love riding my. bike but it's like it became the. moralizing and the woke culture I was. just like this is [ __ ] like there's. also a St there's also a thing that's. not being addressed about the climate is. that it's never been static ever. never in the history of the earth so. this idea that climate change is going. to be mitigated or that some somehow Or. Another We're going to be able to. control it like are you sure because it.

seems like ice ages have always existed. and great periods of melting and global. warming have always existed like whether. or not we're having an effect on it. that's what we should say well what what. is our effect pollutants what are we. doing what's what are we doing that's. negative but this idea that if you stop. the Earth is going to stay like this. it's not of course it's not it doesn't. exist it's always like this it's up and. down it's all over the [ __ ] place. well the funny thing is we were probably. headed towards an Ice Age yeah and then. we our carbon emissions probably it.

appears to have reversed that which is. good which is which is good and then you. just don't want to go too far global. cooling is way scarier than global. warming and way more people die R. Carlson told me that and I never even. thought about it until he said it and I. was like yeah Jesus Christ you're [ __ ]. if everything freezes and he said there. was a point in in history or a point in. the history of the Earth where things. got so cold that we almost became. inhospitable to. life life as we currently understand it.

and know it yeah for sure I mean you. know everything in moderation I mean. yeah you just I mean you you don't want. to change the temperature too much in. any direction of course so but I mean. look it's like for me it's always been I. think there's a bunch of complicated. problems like social media and the. culture but like energy it's pretty. straightforward if you're using wood. anything is better than that including. coal if you're using coal natural gas is. better and nuclear is even the best and.

basically the the world has been moving. in the direction from wood to Coal to. oil and gas to nuclear and that's the. right direction and nuclear has always. been a weird one because it brings with. it the power to to make bombs but the. the as an energy source it's amazing. yeah so we just kind of overthinking and. then the issue got not overthink it but. really it Got Hijacked by a bunch of you. know opportunists that want to want to. use it as a way to exercise control so. for you you experien these people that. came along that were kind of grifters.

that were saying we need to incorporate. some and by the way you're talking about. a like extremely Progressive liberal. organization that you were a part of. which but you if there was any racism it. would start out like a sore thumb it's. if anything. like mean you're you're promoting the. complete opposite of what they're trying. to say. yeah like by by giving you some training. they're trying to find implicit racism. or or hidden racism or you know well it.

gets back to that I think there's a when. you when you just abandon traditional. religions and the traditional morality. you want to create I mean look even like. I mean this bipo thing is so interesting. because it's like I was like what I me. finally some to explain what is bipo. well that's black indigenous people of. color literally in the word it's. creating a hierarchy where it's black. and indigenous people above you know. Latinos and Asians who are just barely. people of color it's grotesque everybody. hates it not everybody but most people I.

think actually hate it but it has this. power because it's. providing in fact this D transition I. interviewed she was like the social. justice she's like as she's autistic you. know so she's autistic autism spectrum. she goes like as an autistic person and. she's a lot of self- awareness and older. now but she was like that social justice. moral hierarchy provided Comfort like it. was like a way to be like confusing you. know she was uncomfortable with herself. socially awkward I could kind of fit.

into this moral hierarchy and then be. really dogmatic about it and then and. then feel powerful feel in control have. community so I think when you don't. that's why I like re reverting to like. the older morality is First Amendment. morality right the older morality is is. true anti-racism and that we don't think. there are human races much less that. they can be put on a hierarchy this is. what we want to get back to yes and that. and that is the reality of biological. human beings too the reality is it's One. race we just adapted to different.

climates that's all it is we all came. from Africa y but what specif so you. experienced this and you you recognize. these people were grifters and then like. what moves you other than is the Twitter. files is that the biggest shift in your. uh more. liaran I mean the first big one was new. nuclear after after you realize that. nuclear is good not bad that's such a. big one you know you're just like wow. man because that's like already nuclear. was the secular devil for those of us. that grew up in the because it's.

connected to power weapons rather and. and all the nightmares yeah and it's. also connected to like Three Mile Island. and Fukushima and yeah yeah I love these. things I mean I think it's like you know. it's funny because of course we know. that disconfirmatory information is. dopamine depleting and other words like. if we get proven wrong it's like. depressing you're like but there's. another way after you get over it you're. kind of like well that's cool like like. nuclear is not what I thought it was. like there's actually a moment of awe.

you know it's like seeing a UFO or being. like Oh my God we might not be alone. there's something exciting about the. excitement we need to get back in touch. with the excitement that comes after you. realize that you were wrong it's an it's. an awareness of some humility and that. the world is more mysterious and. wonderful than we than we had realized. yeah I think there's also Al a a really. uh a great benefit in expressing to. people that ideas are just ideas it's. not you yes these are just some things. that are bouncing around your head and.

even if you're wrong it does it's like. it's not a value judgment on you you. should probably be wrong less than you. are right you should probably be right. much much more but it's very important. that when you are wrong to acknowledge. that you're wrong one of the worst. things that happens to a public. intellectual is when they are wrong and. they refuse to admit they're wrong this. is the Sam Harris dilemma like there's. many people that are very brilliant. people but they're in this trap where. they can't say they were wrong and if. you can't expose people to your thought.

process and why you made errors they're. going to lose faith in your ability to. discern the truth in the future and. isn't it ironic that all often those are. the people that are always talking about. being without ego it is it's sad I. always noticed it's like wow the people. that talk so much about not having ego. or have the biggest ego goes it's it's. just being a human man it's being a. human and I think it's also just a sign. of our ideologically driven times where.

where I think the Divide between the. right and the left and the the. boundaries in between them are so wide. now y it's so different I think that. that thing too of where we're again the. abandoning traditional religions and. adapting morality I think people do. start to play God a bit unconsciously. and they get real self and I think it's. great to I mean I don't I don't know how. to do it but for me it's always like. just we're all going to die you know. like just let's pause for a minute like. we're going to die and not only that.

this is the the stoicism is so good at. this you know it's it's momento Mory oh. my God they're right there um you know. it's a these are like you have like what. do you have like six of them um they're. amazing it's like this is that's you. very soon yeah so what the [ __ ] are you. going to do between now and listening. he's pointing to these skulls that are. on the table really cool these are all. from this guy Jack of the Dust who's a. an artist they not real skulls you real. skulls no these are just their their.

resin he makes these but we'd be a lot. better I think there's some way when you. remind people some people of their. deaths they get kind of reactionary and. smaller but other people I think there's. a moment it's like yeah like so what am. I going to like like this is it like. what are you doing now and what kind of. a person do you want to be and what kind. of a life do you want to lead my friend. Peter AA um he introduced me to this. thing called uh your life in weeks and. each week you scratch one off and you. you look at all you fit it all you can.

see the all weeks you can see them all. all of them and you go this is how much. you got left unless something radical. changes and it's just like and people. said to him like oh my God this is so. depressing he's like it's actually not. right did reaffirms my understanding of. what's important it makes me want to. spend more time with my family and it. makes me want to not do things that I'm. really not interested in doing just. because they're going to make me money. right yeah which which which if we can. get that into the head of some of these. [ __ ] people that are censoring people. and some of these people that are. pushing these crazy agendas and hiding.

information from people because they. think that it's going to contribute to. an undesirable outcome that that doesn't. fit in a line if the other group wins. you did a shitty job and if you're. hiding information that would allow that. other group to win you're a bad person. like you're bad. like if there's actual real criminal. evidence that you're hiding because you. don't want this other person to get. elected you're doing a terrible thing to.

humanity and you're doing it based on. these very base and normal human. instincts absolutely and like look at I. mean they won't so first of all we've. emailed like I mentioned that Aspen. workshop with all the journalists and. all the social media companies I emailed. every single one of the participants and. said would you please talk to me about. this not a single one except I'm sorry. Washington Post actually of all places. responded not the actual reporter but. through a spokesperson responded with.

some lame thing but it's kind of like if. you're so if like you're so confident if. you're so better than everybody then why. can't you come and just have a. conversation and defend it yeah here you. know skullking around and I mean it. shows the weak the underlying insecurity. and weakness behind Those sensors I mean. they're it's the hall monitor type you. know it's the they're the little church. ladies you know they don't want to have. an open conversation they want to. exercise power behind the scenes well. that's a human instinct it's a natural.

human inclination to control other. people that you might think think are. threatening or in competition with you. or might you know somehow or another get. in the way of your desired goals and. people get so self-obsessed in those. things without something like your week. in life your life in weeks like where. you can just like look at like oh this. is all [ __ ] fruitless like what am I. doing here I'm G to go send the the the. life and weeks to all of the sensors and. be like you are here how long do you. want to keep trying to censor your. fellow Americans such I mean like what.

are you doing well I think one of the. things that has happened that I think. has been greatly beneficial that the. exposing of the Twitter files and the. the making it public where like. especially that we were talking about. this last night at the club that woman. who was like calling Matt taibe a so. called journalist she called us both. that by the way yeah yeah hilarious like. what is a journalist to you someone who. says things only that you agree with.

well and you know you know who and we. talked about also what a powerful. projection it was because she's a. nonvoting representative from the Virgin. Islands yeah which is the some points. out right are so-called. Representatives yeah but I mean calling. Matt taibi like who is so decorated a. so-called journalist and the fact that. he got to Rattle off all the awards in. journalism that he's received yeah I. mean the it it shows what their concern. is their concern is around status I want. to know who the [ __ ] talked to her I.

want to know who boosted her up and and. got her to say those things to say it. that way like what was the conversation. someone should get into her [ __ ]. emails I'd like to know like what. conversations were you privy to like. what did they say to you well also is. also Debbie werman Schultz who famous. foring. training derailing Bernie Sanders's good. to become you know so the the yeah. they're just it's all pod calling the. kettle black well it's also the. shittiness in which they communicate.

with these people who are just exposing. something that everyone should be aware. of because it's a real problem right and. what Twitter is and what Facebook is and. Instagram and all these social media. platforms these are a new public squares. and we need some sort of an. understanding of the significance of. censorship in regards to what kind of an. impact it's going to have on our life a. real life world like how many people who. got censored off of Twitter it's. radically changed their life radically.

changed the for wrong reasons changed. the progression of their future I I. would imagine a lot quite a few and also. deeply humiliated them and and probably. ostracized them in certain Social. Circles Here Comes Mike he got he got. banned from Twitter yeah like what did. he say oh yeah said um only women have. vaginas Megan Murphy yes yeah but but. men aren't women yeah vagia saying to. the I love it that she said that to her.

like after she got back yeah she's still. she's still mad about it oh you did okay. yeah she's still she's mad my friend I. had her on the podcast when she was. banned because I was talking about her. before she was banned cuz excuse me. before uh she was brought back cuz I had. heard she was banned for this and so. that was the ultimate Stan effect like I. took this woman who is this obscure. journalist who got banned for. disagreeing with trans activists and I. brought her in front of millions of. people I'm like what happened tell me. what happened multiple times she's been. on amazing and so now you know she's.

back on the platform and you know now. people get to she's a brilliant woman. and she's also she has some really good. points and her point about trans. activists like you are trying to silence. biological women but by you're bringing. in these biological males into these. traditionally women spaces and they're. calling themselves feminists and she's. like that's not real like this is not. what's happening here absolutely I mean. it's interesting that the people that. are trying to kind of put everybody down.

you're the deplorables or the so-called. journalists or just all of the insults. they're coming from people who have just. been the worst bootlickers their entire. career suck-ups Brown nosers they are so. proud of having sucked up for so long. that they're they're deeply threatened. by people who are actually challenging. of course the status quo well that is. that's the mainstream journalist. approach to the internet journalist you. know when you you have people like. Crystal and Saga from breaking points.

who are like beholden to no one right. like what kind of [ __ ] cat and also. they have a subscription based service. so they don't even need advertisers the. [ __ ] is going on here like who saw this. coming no one right before substack. there was never a place where someone. like a a caliber of Matt taibe or Glen. Greenwald could post and millions of. people could read their stuff and it. could make international news oh just. like a Washington Post article just like. a Boston Globe article well they're.

envious too right of course they should. it's like yeah here you have to like go. you go to work I mean if you work at one. of those traditional news outlets yeah. you go to work every day you you're not. able to publish and write you know you. write something the editor sit on it my. friend Nelly bus who's married to Barry. Weiss you know when she was at the New. York Times you know like you'd write a. story and then you'd argue with editors. for weeks and then maybe they'd publish. a thing that was like half its original. length and has been completely woke. ified so they don't have they don't have.

they're actually they're they're jealous. of the freedom that people with free. speech have and they want to stamp it. out one 100% And it's you know it's a. threat to the the choices that they've. made the good thing is that they're. blind to it and so they end. up doing what they did to us in that. heing cuz it was kind of like I remember. we were just laughing and I was like do. they realize how bad they look they. didn't they didn't they thought they. were super clever I don't if you saw. they put a photo up of you with with. Matt did you see I look high as [ __ ] too.

it was hilarious I must have been sleepy. that day because like like the photo. that they chose makes me look like. yeah but the idea that they're. connecting me to him and so with his. giant photo that somehow discredits yeah. they don't understand the landscape no. lost the plot they've lost the plot they. have a bubble they have like this. ideological Echo chamber that they exist.

in and they think that like holding a. photo oh you were on the biggest program. in the world what are you a piece of. [ __ ] yeah no for sure well I mean look I. mean it's it's but it's really funny. it's funny to watch and this is this. transformation from the world of these. corpor owned Distributors of information. to Independent people that people. actually trust that don't have any sort. of like weird connection Absolut to.

Executives and producers and all these. other people that have a vested interest. in pushing a narrative that is. established by the advertisers it sounds. that you sound optimistic I am in that. well I knew something was going on when. Howard Stern started criticizing. podcasts I was like that's hilarious. this is like a long time ago like why. [ __ ] idiots their time like there's. losers do podcasts like oh that's you. are threatened threatened by cuz you're. you're stuck on satellite right and. satellite only goes to places where the.

satellite reaches like it doesn't even. work in tunnels man well one of the most. like one of the most bitter people on. Twitter is Keith. alberman he's always trying to get back. to like a cable show for a little while. or he's hilarious yeah he's hilarious. that guy's he's a [ __ ] human. caricature yeah that guy like when he. was doing that thing where he was like. ranting in his basement about Donald. Trump being arrested imminently at any. moment he's going to be arrested and. that thing he would do the resistance. it's like God it was so cringe yeah but.

it's also it's like you're so clearly. angry and arrogant and shitty like do. you not understand that these are. personality traits that nobody likes and. especially if you are uninformed. misinformed Incorrect and he was with. like with when he was like this vaccine. promoter it's like certain people look. for a thing that they think there will. be popular opinion behind they get with. that thing so they can connect. themselves to a winning movement and.

then they. angrily advocate in favor of other. people complying and that's what he did. no they're like junkie seeking a fix. they're seeking a fix of immediate. social reward yeah I mean he got. vaccinated on film come on can't show. everybody gross like yeah yeah meanwhile. I'd already have natural antibodies by. then I'm like why yeah do you guys don't. understand how this works no yeah this. is this is how it's worked. forever that's the weirdest one I mean I. I was I was fact checked when during my.

campaign by the San Jose Mercury News. which was like shellenberger got some. really weird ideas including this idea. that natural immunity is just as. effective as the vaccine it was like. what you get it's crazy to watch left. captive captive to the pharmaceutical. industry like how did that happen you. guys were the ones that were always my. body my choice like what what the [ __ ]. is going on with you well no I remember. like I you know uh I was raised by very. Progressive parents my dad had a food. co-op I mean I remember hearing about. natural immunity since natural immunity.

you know it's like natural immunity. that's like a liberal thing right but it. was Dennis Prager who would always be. talking about I got covid so I could. have natural immunity you know yeah and. people like you're crazy this is not. only that I mean just the fact that no. one has a problem with with all the. different remedies that were effective. against covid being suppressed right and. that there was one narrative and that. narrative was connected to the emergency.

use authorization which is only. applicable if there's no other. treatments right the fact that this is. not that that that was never discussed. in the people weren't but it's also the. terror of this impending pandemic that's. going to take out your loved ones and. you know Robert Malone talked about that. on the podcast that it creates this Mass. formation psychosis that you have this. one thing that people are looking at as. the Savior and any suppression of that. or any resistance of that you are going.

to ruin my life I'm trying to get back. to work I'm trying to make Society do it. do the thing but and you can't even be. like hey but maybe we should see studies. hey but where's the data hey why are. they telling pregnant women they can. take it there's no studies on pregnant. woman hey you know why is there an. increase in all cause mortality in the. year that everybody got vaccinated hey. what is going on with all the. myocarditis hey what's up with The. Strokes hey and everyone's like la la la. not listening la la la and if it wasn't.

for people like Robert Kennedy Jr. writing that book if it wasn't for. people like uh how do you say his name B. J I don't want to [ __ ] his name up Jay. bararia or that gentleman from the ukuk. John Campbell or some of these other. doctors I love John Campbell I love John. Campell he's my favorite so well he's so. measured and even and but like a tinge. of British sarcasm to some of the things. that he says but not pompous either and. also very much like I want people to.

have the information but I think that. it's the it's the will to control that. comes before the catastrophizing they. want to have control and then they. exaggerate the problem whether it's. climate change or. cism that's what's coming first it's the. need for that that Social Power I think. the other issue and it struck me as. you're talking the reason that they want. to emphasize the vaccine over the the. remedies over and Steve kersch talks a. lot about all the different ways in. which you know you can treat the co. bless you thank you is that that's sort.

of something that you can do on your own. you can treat the covid whereas vaccines. were going to be something that we're. going to do as a society and it's this. Collective action well any resistance to. that puts you in this antivaxer category. which is like one of the worst. pejoratives in modern world times like. the climate denier is right up there. climate Den yeah it's right up there you. got lumped into that oh yeah for sure I. mean meanwhile you're just stating data. and facts yeah but the the I mean it's. funny because I've I've been thinking I. was like looking at the trans folks.

they're actually sex deniers and for a. minute there I was like when you call. them sex deniers and I was like God. that's just like I don't want to be that. guy I don't want to be that guy either. because I have friends that are trans. and you know like well no but they but. they don't you can be trans and not be a. sex I mean in other words sex and I are. somebody that says that there aren't. there aren't biological sex is it's just. a social construction right so I think. that you know which is just absurd and. obviously so but yeah like like I just. yeah we don't want to be that we want to. be the change in the world like I want.

people to be able to do whatever they. want to do but I don't want it to happen. to Children before they can figure out. what the [ __ ] is going on I don't want. them to be coerced children are so. malleable you can get them to join Cults. you can get them to believe that they. have to strap a suicide vest on and walk. into a crowded Courtyard there there's. things that you can get children to do. that you're not going to get older. people to do yeah and I to to influence. them to make a permanent change on their. body that will sterilize them and also.

prevent them from experiencing sexual. pleasure excuse. me bless you it's I just cough that time. it's [ __ ] I mean it's yeah it's and. it's it's attached to an ideology so. because it's attached to this ideology. it has to be universally and blindly. supported. yeah and I just think I it'd be nice to. get Beyond I mean it's funny because. there's a bit of a arms race with the. language where you know like they say. they just accuse their opponents of.

being racists climate deniers antivaxers. election deniers yeah and if you're kind. of like hey can we move Beyond these. reductive labels they still have the. advantage because these labels are so. powerful so power it's so tricky it's. similarly like where where they were. like I was kind of like I don't even use. this language of disinformation you know. gr tunberg is a purveyor of. disinformation the world is coming to an. end in a few years yeah said yeah a she. had to delete that tweet a said AOC says.

world's 12 that's disinformation but I. don't like do we have to go and call it. that or can you just be like you were. wrong and well you're not just wrong. you're you're spreading fear that's. unnecessary and it's not based on facts. and it it's only there to support your. narrative you're saying it to support. your narrative and it makes you less. reliable and you shouldn't do that y I. think there's also that thing about the. um and Jordan makes this point about the. there's also the online I mean it's much. harder to to demonize somebody when it's.

this yes when we're in person and I can. see that as we you say you see the god. in you you see the God in Me much hard. whereas like online you've already it's. it's dehumanizing by nature and so. labeling your opponents and demonizing. them is that's why like like the Matt. Walsh conversation imagine if Matt Walsh. and I had that conversation on Twitter. I'm like it would take months you. couldn't yeah you can't do it it. wouldn't work it wouldn't no one would. ever achieve an understanding of what. the other person thought and it would. also be like probably probably pretty.

nasty right which I don't think is. necessary like I I can disagree with. someone and and have a conversation with. them and just just talk to them right. but then there's also people that are. like really they're bad actors and. they're only saying something because it. conforms to their ideology and they're. essentially grifters they've attached. themselves to this thing and that was. that is their business say they're. they're lost souls yeah they're lost. souls that's a good way to put it I mean. it's slightly sweeter I mean Michael.

you're such a positive. person hard I mean I'm a bad I mean you. know why the part of the reason I came. back to being a Christian is that. Christianity I came back to it actually. while working on Greta tunberg God the. end of my book apocalypse never and I. was like what's the remedy for this. intense hatred and anger against. civilization and and I was like it's. love. obviously loving your enemies like is. for me what Christianity is about like. it's the heart of Christianity it's. really hard forgiveness yeah yeah.

forgiveness and yeah it's it's but it's. it's really really hard and so for me it. was like I'm interested in having a. faith that's hard not easy if it were. easy then what's the point you know it's. got to make you better in some way I get. the same thing out of stoicism I find it. completely compatible or these death. meditations you do it not because it's. wonderful to think about being dead you. do it because you think it's going to. you know it's actually the uh God the. other guy you had on who I just adore is.

Andrew huberman yes where it's like you. read like I listen to all those and he's. got a a colleague uh what's her name she. did dopamine Nation um I'm blanking I'm. killing it I love Suna soberg no no um. oh yeah I remember her she's going to be. so mad that I I'm blanking on her name. um but you know basically Jamie's got. sorry Anna sorry Anna if you're watching. this um but they you know it's like it's. like it's so simple but they're like you. know like you know huberman so first of.

all I now do my morning run before I. drink my coffee and I take a cold shower. because because that amount of adversity. which I mean it's kind of a joke like. that's not adversity really but but a. little bit it's it's not great I'm not. happy like I have to get my tennis shoes. on and you're running like early in the. morning and yeah but he's absolutely. right that actually leaning into the ad. leaning into the pain a bit that's. that's it makes the rest of your day. easier it really does it's the day there. are occasional days very rare and I must.

be busy where I don't go into the cold. plunge first thing in the morning and. those days aren't as good oh you have a. cold plung oh yeah I have a [ __ ] cold. one bro I have a Morosco Forge at home. that's 34° and I climb into that [ __ ]. every day for 3 minutes oh God and then. we have a new one that's getting. installed here that's a blue cube it's. it's even more horrific because it's got. a constant flow like a river so you. never establish a barrier no it's not. that heat up the water your skin has a. thermal barrier it's like if you stay.

still in the cold water it's way easier. than if you move if you move it's. [ __ ] horrible and the blue cube is. just like a raging River on you which is. probably even more adversity that you. have to overcome you know Nim TB does a. good job with this with his book um anti. fragile yeah antifragile um I find him. annoying on Twitter but I think that. Insight that's that's probably just. Twitter right oh yeah probably no I bet. in person well he's probably an arrogant. [ __ ] in person he's very brilliant. lot of very brilliant people are.

arrogant it's part of the like what. makes you brilliant in the first place. and put in the hard work I mean that's. the discourse on the censorship stuff. too is it's always you know we're trying. to reduce harm they go we want to reduce. speech that causes harm it's like wait a. second like I know what you mean like we. don't want to do bad in the world on the. other hand yeah on the other hand like. we know that codling children is. terrible it's it you create Unstoppable. harm it's way worse it's way worse than. letting that kid experience some.

adversity yeah yeah just the right. amount of adversity the right amount of. harm yeah it's not it's not easy but I. mean that it's we have to get back to. teaching that I agree Michael it's. always a pleasure thank you very much. for coming here if you ever have any. more Twitter pages that you have to go. through like if you really do go through. the fouchy files or whatever please come. back we'll do it again appreciate you. appreciate you too thank you bye. everybody. [Music]. [Applause].

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