Joe Rogan Experience #1959 - David Buss

[Music]. by night. all right Dave well thank you very much. for being here man appreciate it thank. you that uh I'm delighted to be here and. it's a great honor to be here talking to. you man well it's very nice to meet you. uh with Jordan uh he speaks so highly of. you and we had such a fun conversation. at dinner that I said well we uh we. definitely should do this publicly yeah. yeah it's uh terrific and I've been.

catching up on your podcast so you have. so many that it's you know impossible. but I watched the recent one you did. with Jordan when he was here in Austin. and uh also the one that you did with. Russell Brand. um and I was on I was on his his podcast. and it's just say hey man he talks so. fast I know that it's like uh glad you. were kind of a calming influencer down a. little bit and he's sober the guy's. completely clean and sober you would.

imagine that he's definitely on Adderall. or something yeah that's what I was. thinking and maybe when he was on heroin. maybe it's calmed him down a little bit. or slowed him down baby yeah maybe. that's why I was interested in stuff so. uh what we started talking about was. your life's work which was your life's. work is human mating strategies yes as a. psychologist like why first of all why. was that uh so appealing to you why did. you choose that as a field of study yeah. well it was it wasn't a field of study.

when I when I did choose it and I I. wasn't like I had a plan going in but. um a little bit of back story on this is. um I'm a psychologist by training so. trained at UC Berkeley PhD. and there was nothing of this sort going. on there or no research but I started. reading because I have fairly broad. interest I started reading in different. areas like evolutionary biology and I. was reading an evolutionary biology I. came across these amazing theories of.

evolution like Hamilton's theory of. Inclusive fitness Traverse theory of. Parental investment of course Darwin's. theory of sexual selection that was. really that's really the one that blew. me away Darwin's theory of sexual. selection. and then I realized man these these. theories have so much applicability to. humans but nobody is studying them and. they lead to at least the then theories. lead to some pretty clear predictions.

that could be tested and so I was. trained as an empirical scientist where. you know you you take the hypotheses. generate predictions do the studies and. if the studies if the empirical findings. support the predictions then you say. okay this looks promising you know we'll. go further and so I did some initial. studies of a human mate preferences so. one of the core things maybe to back up. just a second if I could Darwin's theory. of sexual selection so this is a Darwin. 1871.

um and it's it's it's one of the most. brilliant and then unrecognized Theory. evolutionary theories in existence so. most people when they think about. Evolution they think about sir Revival. of the fittest you know nature red and. tooth and Claw. um you know and of course that's really. what Darwin's first book On the Origin. of Species was all about. survival adaptations to survival and he. came up with this brilliant phrase uh. called the Hostile forces of nature and.

that he and that organisms have these. adaptations to deal with these hostile. forces of nature in order to survive so. there were basically threats from the. environment uh things like you've you. know fall off a cliff you you drown in. the ocean uh food shortages threats from. predators you know the lions and tigers. and bears threats from parasites that. can eat you from within. um and so that's really what his first. book was all about and so people equated. natural selection with survival.

selection but there were in fact. phenomena that Darwin could not explain. on this Theory and he was very troubled. by him he has he noticed that something. that all scientists do scientists. develop funds for their pet hypotheses. right their pet theories and so but he. noticed that he had a tendency to forget. facts that were inconsistent with his. theory of natural selection and so he.

forced himself to write them down in a. separate notebook because he didn't want. to forget him he was you know so one was. like the brilliant plumage of peacocks. and he asked uh how could this weird. structure possibly lead to a survival. Advantage it's like a first of all. metabolically expensive and it's it's. like a neon sign to Predators. advertising fast food how could this. weird structure possibly have evolved he. said even said in his notebook that the. sight of a peacock gives me nightmares. he couldn't explain it on his theory of.

a natural selection and they also. noticed other phenomena sexual. dimorphism differences in the size shape. morphology of males and females of the. same species and the reason this. troubled him was because he he thought. well both sexes face the same survival. problems right both sexes have to eat. both sexes have to defend our Predators. both sexes have to fend off parasites so. why would they differ in morphology size. strength Etc and moreover why would.

different species very. um so dramatically so you have like. elephant seals for example males are. four times the size of females. chimpanzees less so twice the size of. females humans it's complicated because. it depends on which aspect of more. followers you're talking about so men. are only. say ten percent eleven percent taller. than women but things like upper body. strength it's like monumentally powerful. sex differences there and so and so all.

this is a long-winded way of saying that. in response to these anomalies you know. things like the brilliant plumage of. peacocks. um the elaborate bird song and so forth. and the sex differences he came up with. the theory of sexual selection and. sexual selection deals not with the. evolution of characteristics that lead. to survival. Advantage but rather those. characteristics that lead to a mating. advantage and he identified two claws or.

Pathways uh sorry for monologuing here. no no good please I'll get to it very. interesting a pause here but um don't. pause it in a second but um so so mating. Advantage so he identified two causal. Pathways which are still the pillars of. sexual selection Theory by which mating. Advantage could occur okay one is. intrasexual competition or same-sex. competition so battles The Stereotype is. two Stags locking horns in combat and.

the Victor gains sexual access to the. female a loser ambles off with a broken. antler dejected suffering low. self-esteem and needing so Psychotherapy. for by some of my Clinical Psychology. colleagues uh made value Rehabilitation. therapy or something like that and so. the logic was very simple but very clear. and that is that qualities that led to. success in these same-sex battles what. biologists call contest competition.

those got passed on in greater numbers. because of the sexual access that the. victors gained qualities associated with. losing the competition to basically bit. The evolutionary dust. and the logic of that. intersexual competition is actually more. General so what I've described is what's. called contest competition where there's. a little physical battle but it it's. more General in that for example with. humans we sometimes do contest. competition in fact there's somewhat of.

a long evolutionary history of males. doing these physical contests in Warfare. and sometimes within groups but but we. also compete for status and for. competing for status status gives you to. a mating Advantage. but we don't necessarily have to fight. so I always say like I've been I teach. at University of Texas and and all the. time in a previously taught at. University of Michigan Harvard. University Berkeley.

in all my years in Academia I've never. walked across campus and one time seen. two guys. duking it out. you know in public surrounded by a ring. of females who are watching to see who's. going to be the winner and then having. sex with the the winner not once have I. observed this you know maybe they do it. in private but I haven't seen that so so. that's that's the first component is. same-sex competition. second process is is uh intersexual.

selection which is intermed between. sexual the Sexes so it's basically. preferential mate choice and there the. issue is what are the qualities that men. and women or males and females desire in. the opposite sex. and the logic there is that you need. some variability in those qualities and. so they could be anything they could be. physical appearance they could be. um sense of humor they could be.

intelligence they could be personality. characteristics. um. uh so first there has to be variability. second there has to be some heritable. heritability to the variability. and then third there have there has to. be some consensus it doesn't have to be. total but some agreement on what. qualities are desired. uh and so for example just. hypothetically if it were the case. that all women preferred to mate with. men who had red hair okay it actually.

doesn't occur redhead is not typically a. dominant preference but if they did. then over time you'd see an increase in. the frequency of red-headedness in the. population because those with red hair. would have a mating advantage that we. could be selectively chosen those. lacking red hair would be you know kind. of banished or less less do less well on. the mating Market. and so again you can see Evolution which. simply means change over time.

in either due to qualities that lead to. same success in same-sex battles or due. to possessing qualities that are valued. by the opposite sex. okay so let's talk about peacocks then. yeah what could possibly have caused a. peacock to develop that insane plumage. and how would that be preferential and. why would that be preferential to the. opposite sex yeah it's a great question. Joe uh and.

um it basically we know that it is. preferred by the opposite sex so the the. more brilliant the plumage. the um the more luminescent the plumage. the more females like it. and there are a couple different. hypotheses that have been put forward to. explain it we don't know totally the. answer to it but one is that it has to. do with parasite load so parasites. decrease the luminescence of the plumage. so a peacock that had a high parasite.

low would be less healthy and so one. hypothesis is that females are queuing. into a health cue. um. another hypothesis is uh was put forward. by an Israeli biologist name named. zahavi called the handicapped hypothesis. and and the idea there is that the. peacocks are saying. um I am so big and strong and fit that I.

can carry around this massive structure. and still survive and still Thrive and. so I must have pretty good genes uh and. so and so so we don't know but and it. could of course be some combination of. those or a third Factor but we do know. females prefer it and probably linked to. a health cue. possibly linked to a handicap well it's. interesting because it exists in turkeys. as well like turkeys have that big. plumage that they puff out when they're.

trying to attract the ladies yeah have. you seen that yeah I have uh yeah many. many species do you see the um and and. you raise an interesting issue that. having to do with the sex difference in. this so why is why does it seem to be. the males who are always doing this and. not the females which is interesting. because in our species if you ask which. sex. um diverts the most attention to. changing their physical appearance it's. actually females so women for example. spend nine times but more money on.

cosmetic enhancements uh makeup and so. forth compared to men. it was the the sex difference. in who does the choosing who does the. competing was so pronounced that Darwin. even called the preferential mate Choice. component female Choice simply because. he observed that it seemed to be the. females who were more choosy about who. they made it with and the males were. more indiscriminate they would basically. mate with almost any female who would.

have them. um but what's interesting is when we get. to humans we find that both components. of sexual selection apply uh to both. sexes so that is in our species both. males compete with other males for. access to females and females compete. with other females for access to. desirable males and both men and women. have preferential mate choice and I know. this for a fact not just from the. empirical studies but in my in my.

undergraduate courses uh I have a couple. hundred students and I ask her how many. males how many of you guys have no. preferences and we just mate with any. female no matter what and typically. there's like one smartass guy at the. back of the room who raises his hand but. men have strong preferences now they. differ in some ways from the preferences. of women. and there is the very important issue of. whether you're going for a short-term. mate you know a one-night stand a casual.

sex partner or a hookup as they call it. on college campuses or you're going for. a long-term committed pair-bonded. partner because the qualities that you. prefer that people prefer differ. dramatically so bottom line here is both. both components of sexual selection. operate. within both sexes. so like when you're talking about the. difference between like uh what. someone's attracted to for a one-night. hookup versus what someone's attracted.

to in a relationship that has to do with. the whole concept of having the. opportunity to spread your genes without. any commitment right so like someone who. is what you would call hot and uh you. know promiscuous the attractiveness to. that is that this is an opportunity for. the male to spread their genetics. without having to work too hard uh yeah. the way I would phrase it is uh um that.

that is the. um result so to speak uh men don't think. about that consciously right you know. they're just right they're just it's a. they actually find this cycle I'm an. attractive and they want to have sex. with her right and they're not thinking. just like when you eat food you're not. thinking although some may now but most. people don't think oh what is the. underlying nutritive logic that led to. my survival or you know they just say oh. this smells good it tastes good I'm. gonna eat it right you know and so we're. not conscious of the underlying logic.

that drove the evolution of these uh. attractions in the in this case but your. question also. raises the interesting issue of. um males versus females. you know so for so so and this gets to a. fundamental sex difference in our. reproductive biology which is referred. to as it's kind of a clunky phrase but. obligatory parental investment so in. other words what is the minimum.

obligatory parental investment that a. man versus a woman has to put in to. produce one child. and for men the minimum the absolute. bare minimum is is one act of sex and. that can result in a child for women the. minimum is that nine months of pregnancy. which which is huge uh and so this has. actually been called uh the the the. darwinian Paradox or their darwinian. puzzle is that we know that given that.

asymmetry in investment we know that. um it has been beneficial in the. currency of reproductive success for men. to have sex with a variety of women okay. that's fairly straightforward. um but why do women do it because we. know women also engage in short-term. mating they engage in a fair mating so. estimates vary but say somewhere between. say 20 and 35 40 percent of women have.

affairs even if they're in a committed. long-term relationship interesting issue. well what do they get out of it they. don't increase their direct reproductive. success it never could have because. unless their partner happened to be. infertile. the most they can have is basically one. kid a year and so adding additional sex. partners doesn't do anything for their. reproductive success okay and so it's. been a puzzle and there have been. you know maybe.

four or five leading hypotheses about. why women do it and uh this is a one. area where I've changed my mind on uh. pretty dramatically so uh early on a. former student of mine Marty Hazelton is. now a professor at UCLA and other. friends and colleagues like Steve. gangisted and Randy Thornton put forward. this idea that the reason that women do. it is that they're pursuing a dual. mating strategy that is they're trying. to get investment from one guy like the.

good Dads but good genes from another. guy. oh wow and and so it's it's uh and is. there any research done on what type of. mate a woman is likely to cheat on. uh well that's that's a good question so. um there's been some and it's not. conclusive but basically the only way. this could work uh and I have to back up.

just a second on that we know that. Affairs are very costly for women so if. discovered. they result in infidels result in. violence sometimes they result in. killing you know getting to the killing. out if we want to get into that maybe. later in our conversation. you wrote a whole book on murder I wrote. a whole book on murder yeah uh you know. uh yeah the murderer next door uh but um. uh but also women suffer more than men.

if an infidelity is discovered they. suffer reputational damage they suffer. suffer uh sometimes social ostracism uh. it's uh cataclysmic for their. relationship so you know it's in fact. it's one of the leading causes of. divorce worldwide across cultures is if. there's a female infidelity. um and so it and so the issue is what. benefit could be so great to a woman. that she's willing to risk all the all.

these costs if it's discovered and so. the good genes dual mating strategy. argument could work in principle. um and it would could work if there were. no costs and this is you know one of the. reasons why men and women. commit infidelities in in secret you. know it's been driven underground they. people don't go on Twitter and say hey I. just hey I just had an affair on my. partner you know. um uh it's driven underground people try.

to keep it under wraps so they don't. experience the cost and of course there. are costs to men as well by being. discovered they're just not as uh. cataclysmic as they are as they are for. women. so the only way it would work though is. if the getting back to your original. question uh is if there's a large. discrepancy between the woman's regular. partner. and her Affair partner in terms of the. quality of his genes and so with these. um these good genes dual mating strategy.

theorists proposed is that there are. certain markers of good genetic quality. they hypothesized masculine features. um and there's a logic behind that uh. they hypothesize symmetrical features so. we are a bilaterally symmetrical species. so normal development in every way of. you know our hands or arms our legs grow. you know more or less symmetrically but. there are things that cause deviations. from symmetry so mutations or genetic.

mutations can cause deviations. um diseases can cause asymmetries. um and environmental insults in a. variety of ways and so what they the. good genes theorists argue is that if. someone is if a male is very symmetrical. then that's a marker that he's not. experienced the history of disease or. environmental insults or a high mutation. load or has a a what they call a.

developmental system that's very kind of. impervious to these insults so even. though they've suffered the slings and. arrows of Outrageous Fortune they still. maintain that symmetry well I think. they're their their problem problems. with that but anyway. um back to uh to backtrack a second why. I changed my mind so I used to Advocate. this well this seems It's logically. plausible. um. uh but I started to doubt it and I.

started to doubt it for two reasons one. is. um some. um replication some larger scale. replications uh of the work started to. fail to replicate uh the original. finding so what they did is how do they. how did they test this what they looked. at is. do women change their preferences when. they're ovulating. so because it's only in that narrow. window of ovulation that she's going to. be getting the good genes so so what. they looked at is women's normal mate.

preferences and they tracked them over. the ovulation cycle and do they change. to prefer more masculine more. symmetrical features when they're. ovulating and then go back to their. normal preferences and the initial study. suggested yes they do initial studies. suggested that when women have affairs. it tends to coincide with when they're. ovulating and some other things like. that how do they get gather this data. well it's very difficult and time. consuming data but um you know it.

started out with crude methods such as. estimating the woman's time of ovulation. through a back through accounting. backward counting but I mean how do they. get people to even become a part of a. study where they admit that they have. cheated on their husbands oh well so so. that that's a that's a different. question what they these studies just. looked at changes in mate preferences so. what are you talking about Affairs it's. not just changes in May preferences. decision to have intercourse right with.

someone other than your husband right. how do you right how do you run a study. right and they have studies like that so. they they haven't said they haven't yeah. no no so how do they know uh they don't. it it's just do the mate preferences. change at ovulation in the predicted in. the ways predicted by the theory okay so. how would they find that out how would. they find out if a woman's made. strategies changed and if her preference. has changed based on ovulation so they. basically get women and then they track. them throughout the cycle uh and so that.

and they can do this now they they can. do it through hormonal assays so there. are you know ovulation kits that they. can. um assess so what do they have like a. like a survey they fill out like who are. you attracted to today Harry Styles what. about tomorrow something like that Jason. Momoa I must be ovulating right right or. basically they show photographic images. and so the women just rate oh how. attractive is this guy and so what they.

and then independently they can assess. masculinity like like Jason how do you. pronounce his name. Aquaman uh yeah he's uh like super. Mexican I remember him I don't think I. saw Aquaman but I remember him from Game. of Thrones yeah. um and uh yeah when Conan the Barbarian. too yeah uh so yeah he would be a. perfect example yeah highly masculine. yeah features you know the um square jaw.

heavy brow Ridge ridges you know uh you. know a a good um. shoulder to hip ratio so you know. typically masculine features and so they. would look at do women. rate the photos of these masculine and. symmetrical guys more attractive when. they're ovulating them when they're not. up that's basically what they did. and um. uh the bottom line so there are some.

conceptual problems with that of you. know what does symmetry and masculinity. why are these the sole features that. Mark good genes because they're also a. lot of things that have moderate. heritability it's one of the things we. know from the heritability studies a. zillion things show moderate. heritability. but here's the here's what really. convinced me so so one is the failures. to replicate those studies so the larger. scale studies failed to find those.

preference shifts at ovulation. but when you started to when I started. to look at the literature about women. who were having Affairs and the reasons. that they're having Affairs and the. nature of the Affairs there are things. that cropped up like like this. um. 79 percent one study found 79 percent of. women. fell in love with or became emotionally. involved with her Affair partner. and to me this is exactly the opposite.

of what you'd want if you're trying to. pursue that dual mating strategy idea. you want you you want to get the good. genes and then forget about the guy and. so as not to jeopardize your investment. from the regular partner. um and so and so it's really it's a. design feature that's counter to that. notion it goes up here doesn't it but it. seems to me that you're pursuing this. like as if it's a logical Endeavor. that's based on trying to achieve an.

outcome and I think it's far more likely. you're dealing with mental illness. alcohol. you know. emotional imbalance uh extreme desire. for attention narcissism which leads. people to seek out exorbitant amounts of. attention from other people like you. have to take that into account don't you. yeah yeah okay so it's a fair point and. those things. um aren't necessarily inconsistent if. you ask like who has Affairs and what.

are their personality characteristics. okay but fear has happened in all. cultures or virtually all cultures. unless the women are if extremely. cloistered as they are in some cultures. where they're like they cannot leave the. home without a male bodyguard right. but Affairs happen in all cultures and. so some coffee uh sure I'd love some all. right. thank you. so Affairs happen in all cultures yeah. fear is happening in all cultures and so.

a competing hypothesis about why and. this is the one I'm currently. um putting my money on if there's a. horse race is what I call the mate. switching hypothesis. uh and and this is. the notion that women who are in. relationships. who are where the relationship is going. south. perhaps the partner starts out looking. promising but his fail to live up to his.

promise perhaps he becomes an alcoholic. or a drug addict or loses his job or. um or starts um abusing her starts. beating her up. that that women use Affairs as a mate. switching device either to divest. herself of her regular partner. or and or to trade up in the mating. Market to someone who's more desirable. or to make it easier to transition back.

into the mating Market on the notion on. the assumption that she'll be able to. find someone more desirable. out there and so and so there's um. at least a fair amount of circumstantial. evidence that supports the mate. switching hypothesis like the one I just. mentioned. um women uh with 79 of women becoming. emotionally involved or falling in love. with their partner this suggests you.

know it's not just oh I'm seeking. transient attention. as you mentioned that some women might. do it for that of course. um but it suggests that they're. um. uh forming a long-term attachment to. this other guy rather than the regular. partner so here's here's another one and. this makes people like super super. obvious is that women who are unhappy. with their regular relationship either. sexually unhappy or generally unhappy.

with their overall relationship they're. more likely to have affairs now this. seems like the most obvious thing in the. world right yeah sure tell me something. I don't your grandmother couldn't tell. you you're unhappy in the relationship. you're more likely to have an affair but. it turns out the same is not true for. men. that is there at least some studies that. show that if you compare men who have. affairs with men who don't there's no. difference in how happy they are with. the relationship. um and that's why you can have men and.

just to bring up I don't know movie star. examples. um uh like uh this is an older one but. Hugh Grant was um involved with. Elizabeth Hurley I don't know if you. remember yeah uh that that one and he's. like having sex with a prostitute in L.A. and why why is he uh cheating with. Elizabeth Hurley. um kind of crazy now in his case in that. case uh. the male motivation for Affairs differs.

on average substantially from the female. motivation and that is that men are have. this tremendous desire for sexual. variety meaning a variety of sex. partners men tend to have a higher sex. drive. in General on average uh and so they try. to satisfy so even even men who are. involved with or married to. classically beautiful beautiful women. sometimes have a pairs of people are. very puzzled by this but that desire for.

sexual variety is what drives most men. into Affairs and so there's a dramatic. sex difference in why men have affairs. with. um desire for sexual variety pushing. most men into it you know it's like well. I think it was Chris Rock said you know. men are only as faithful as their. opportunity you get a low-cost. opportunity a lot of men act on it you. know if you're like an academic you're. away at a conference you're in a. different town you know uh some fall.

into bed with someone else one night. stand a brief affair and and that's that. um but women it's really different of. course some women do it just for sexual. variety too but that's a minority if you. ask if you ask the question why do most. women have a have an affair I think. that's the mate switching notion so what. they're trying to do is get out of a. committed relationship that they're in. that's not promising it's not working. out and so one of the ways to do that is.

to introduce new partners to just. sabotage their original relationship so. even if it's not someone that they would. seek a long-term relationship with other. than their partner they would have sex. with that person just to sort of. poison the water of whatever committed. relationship they have and that would. Aid in them getting out of it yeah yeah. that's one one variant of it or it could. be that they genuinely have found. another guy that they're they want to. trade up to right I still don't.

understand peacocks. I'm still struggling I'm still. struggling with the feathers I just uh. how did that become a thing but but back. to people so um but there are also. there's people that have like severe. mental illnesses right like there's I. think a lot of people that are very. promiscuous there there there's a some. sort of a lack of attention in their. development cycle as they were young. like maybe lack of male attention that's.

leading them to desire constant and. consistent male attention yeah yeah. there are uh in fact personality. characteristics and. um developmental characteristics that. are correlated with who's more likely to. have an affair and you've pointed to one. of them so narcissism is indeed one of. the uh predictors of Affairs so. narcissism. um uh also uh and actually Jordan. Peterson mentioned this on his podcast.

with you the dark Triad traits of. narcissism machiavellianism and. psychopathy he mentioned sadism I don't. think that really plays into infidelity. so much but the the dark Triad is a good. predictor of who both males and females. which ones are likely to have affairs. so but but there's a big sex difference. there because men tend to be much higher. on these dark Triad traits than women. and so it's a you know smaller minority.

of women who are. inclined in that direction now why are. men more inclined towards those traits. does that have to do with some sort of. survival strategy does it have to do. with a success strategy that would lead. to more mating like in if you encourage. psychopathy or narcissism or not even. courage but if somehow or another those. Behavior traits are rewarded by success.

because you have this ability to do. things that other people might find. reprehensible or amoral or you know what. I mean yeah yeah I know exactly what you. mean immoral yeah yeah and and what I. would say is you you have to break it. down by. um each of those dark Triad traits. because I think each one has a somewhat. different origin so with respect to. psychopathy. psychopathy these are one of the. Hallmarks is a lack of empathy and so.

these are very bad dudes and where. they pursue an exploitative strategy. where they they feign cooperation so. most people are Cooperators so you know. you give me a cup of coffee I'm grateful. for that you know and I see you're. thirsty for some water and I I give that. so that most people are Cooperative by. Nature. this high and psychopathy feign.

cooperation and then basically [ __ ]. people over over the long run you know. it sounds like a bait and switch type. strategy. which. um. can work uh except there are huge costs. associated with it in small group living. where we evolve and that's why I think. my hypothesis is that there's been an. increase in psychopathy over the last 10. 000 years as people started Living in. towns and cities and as migration became.

more common where you could move from. place to place without incurring that. reputational damage because people you. know you you [ __ ] people over. uh word gets around and and then people. might ostracize you from the group or. kill you or whatever or if the victims. were members of your family or your. friends you'd incur a lot of costs. associated with that strategy but in the. modern environment you can get away with. that strategy much more easily I mean we.

we're being preyed upon by people online. from in different continents that we. never even encounter that are high on. these Psychopathic traits so it's a. psychopathy. um. narcissism is attractive to women and. this is a sort of like it's one of the. questions I get asked a lot is that why. are women attracted to Bad Boys you know. guys who seem like they're [ __ ] who. don't respect them you know Etc but.

there are reasons and and one is they. exhibit a lot of confidence. and confidence people often interpret as. a cue to status why would you be. confident if you didn't have something. to back up your confidence. um those higher narcissism also like to. be the center of attention and as humans. we use the attention structure as a cue. to status that is the the. High status people are the ones to whom.

the most people pay the most attention. and so if someone's paying you a lot of. attention and nurses put themselves you. know at the center of the party at the. center of attention and so women. interpret oh that's a status queue. um and so uh and so so the confidence. and Status are known we know that these. are attractive to women. but over time with. um. experience women become less and less. attracted to these bad boy. characteristics it is it's primarily.

young relatively inexperienced women who. were drawn to these guys that makes. sense. that makes sense so over time women. would recognize like oh I've seen this. before yeah yeah and then the the. machiavellianism to to just close the. loop on the the dark Triad these are. exploiters these are the the. manipulators this actually came from. originally from the book The Prince.

which is one of these um classic books. where. um there's an advisor to the prince. who's advising him on all these you know. kind of. underground strategies to manipulate. other people and manipulate and. maintaining power and so forth and these. highly manipulative people. well sometimes they they rise to the top. sometimes they maneuver themselves. um by out-competing others and they. become CEOs or or whatever and so it.

kind of depends on the environment uh. High machiavellians tend to thrive more. in a kind of. free free fall for all environment where. there aren't very strict rules of. engagement you know so probably more. difficult to do it say in the military. where there's they're very regimented. they're very rule oriented. the high high Mac people as they're. called they wouldn't thrive in those. environments typically but more.

free-floating environment maybe. um day trading day trading uh yeah or. even you know business entrepreneurs who. are you know wheeling and dealing that. makes sense yeah and you do meet a lot. of psychos that are doing that yeah yeah. there's a lot of people that have uh. great aspirations about starting big. businesses and get in the you know you. meet them and you're like oh you're kind. of [ __ ] crazy you know like there's a. lot of those guys that are like hopped.

up on Adderall and very aggressive and. yeah it makes sense and it's attracted. to that yeah and sometimes talk a good. game yes and women would be attracted to. them because of the potential Acts. access to resources. yes yeah women are very. um tuned in this is one of the sex. differences and people don't like it but. it's a universal that women value. financial resources and even more. important the qualities that lead to. Financial Resources over time so does.

the guy have Drive does he have ambition. does he have goals is he going places is. he well respected by his peers so that's. even more important than the actual. resources themselves uh it kind of. depends on the age so so right for. potential right yeah yeah that's right. that's right so like I don't know if. you're in an undergraduate at UT you. might a woman might find a like a. pre-med student to be very attractive. not because he has a thick pocketbook.

now but because he's going to be a. doctor he's going to make a lot of money. down the line it's an investment yeah. uh. older women tend to want to see the. goods right now. yeah yeah because by the time you hit. you know 30 40 50 uh if you're still. kind of trying to figure out what you. want to do with your life. um probably not a good sign on that. Dimension how difficult is it with you. with this lifetime of resource uh life.

lifetime of resource uh research rather. and you know this field of study that. you've chosen to exist in this world. where there's this denial this current. world where there's a denial of the. differences between males and females. when you're a guy who studied this. long-standing history of the. variabilities and like. yeah yeah well it's almost like a denial. of all your work like oh you're this is.

nonsense there is no difference yeah. yeah well it's it it is it is kind of. odd and it's in some way something I. never really expected because I don't. think anybody expected it um you know as. yeah and as an empirical scientist I. always uh and this is maybe my naivete. is I thought well you know you do the. studies and you know one of the. Hallmarks of our science is you want to. see independent replication of the. results so and in in if you if you're. claiming a sex difference say in made.

preferences or mating strategies you. want to see it replicated by other. researchers and you also want to see it. cross culturally so does it occur in. Venezuela and China in you know Swahili. every in all cultures and we've done the. studies we've done these my first study. on the mate preferences had 37 cultures. with over ten thousand participants in. yeah and so what I thought is uh because. I first found these sex differences by. the way in American samples and I and I.

thought. when I publish these no one's going to. believe that their evolved sex. differences you know because it's just. Americans are weird and you know who. knows so that's why that's why I did 37. different cultures until I got enough. evidence that convinced me that my. findings were real and that the sex. differences were Universal and so I. thought well it's it's it's really um. people will look at the data and say. okay we're supposed to be. oriented toward the science and if the.

data are there and solid and. independently replicated and show up. cross-culturally and also show up. through different methods that don't. share the same methodological problems. then surely everyone will just go well. okay we we believe them but to my. astonishment some of them have been. challenged and So you you're absolutely. right Joe we live in this odd time where. there's a sex different denial of sex. differences.

um but not only do they exist. um at evolutionary theory provides a. very powerful meta theory that can. explain where and why they exist and the. domains in which they exist and the. domains of which they don't exist so. some people. um have these uh kind of cliches like. Men Are from Mars Women Are from Venus. well that's not true we're all from the. same we're all from the same Planet uh. we're all members of the same species.

but the The evolutionary meta Theory. which is just a fancy term for a theory. of theories is simply that we expect to. see similarity in male and female. psychology in all demands domains where. they face the same or similar problems. you know like dealing with darwinian. hostile forces of nature that I. mentioned earlier it's only in domains. where they face different adaptive. problems as we call them or adaptive. challenges that we expect to see sex.

differences well as it turns out. these domains fall very heavily in the. median sexuality domain for reasons that. well I mentioned alluded to one earlier. but you start as a kind of a ground. level truth there are sex differences in. our reproductive biology so. fertilization occurs internally within. women not within men okay this creates a. problem for men in this parlance an.

Adaptive problem known as the problem of. paternity uncertainty so in other words. women no woman on earth is ever to my. knowledge given birth and as the baby is. coming out of her body looked down and. wonder gee is this kid really mine maybe. Rosemary's Baby. so that one but men can never be sure so. maternity is 100 certain men can never. be sure some cultures use the phrase um. mama's baby Papa's maybe to kind of.

capture that that asymmetry. and and we actually know there are. estimates of the rates of the paternity. uncertainty because we have the genetic. data the molecular genetic data to to do. that now and they of course vary from. closer to culture but this what this. means is this is a this is an example. of a feature of our reproductive biology. a sex difference in a reproductive. biology that has created a problem in.

this case a sexually asymmetrical. problem problem for men not for women. such that if a man. devoted say two decades of his resources. in a in Offspring in the mistaken belief. that it was his own. when in fact it was a rival's Offspring. well he's actually benefiting the rivals. reproductive success at a tremendous. cost to his own and so this. solving this paternity uncertainty.

problem was is so. um critical and so dramatic that it. accounts for why long-term High. investing males are so rare in the. mammalian Kingdom so if you look at all. mammals they're about. ballpark of 5 000 plus species of. mammals only somewhere around three or. four percent have anything resembling a. long-term peer-bonded strategy uh and. even fewer where males invest so even.

like our closest. um uh primate ancest or relative the. chimpanzee with whom we share more than. 98 of our DNA the males don't do. anything they they have sex with the. female when she's ovulating she has. these bright red genital swellings and. you know they're very interested in her. at that time and then after that they. just ignore the females and they don't. do much if anything for the infants or. The Offspring whereas our species we. have huge.

male parental investment where not all. the time of course we have deadbeat dads. and men who don't do anything but a lot. of men do invest uh tremendous resources. in feeding their kids protecting their. kids socializing their kids you know. paying for them to go off to school. making sure that they develop the right. skills Etc so we're an extraordinary. species in that sense but we couldn't do.

that unless men had some way of solving. that paternity uncertainty problem. so this is this is a a long day but up. until. genetic testing up until you the this. ability to find out by you know taking a. sample from the child whether or not the. child actually is yours it was just. based on looking at the child yeah well. well there are a couple things there so. one is. um. uh so the question that you raised Joe.

is is a really good one it the issue is. what adaptations have been evolved to. solve this problem because obviously. they couldn't they couldn't involve. testing DNA because that has that's a. very recent technology. so they could do a couple things one is. make guarding so. um the emotion of jealousy for example. is one of these emotions and I'd be very. curious about your thoughts on that. because I know in a previous podcast I.

think you talked I can't remember if. you're talking about jealousy or Envy as. being a very negative emotion. which they they are jealousy and and. envy are both um I think that was not in. regard to mating preferences yeah yeah. that was really in regard to other. people's success yeah so other people. have stuff that you don't have and so. you feel envious not even stuff it was. accomplishments accomplishments yeah. yeah so so so uh so but men have evolved. this emotion of jealousy which motivates.

mate guarding. um which involves uh an array of. behaviors from that I I've identified 19. clusters that range from vigilance to. vions where men want to monitor their uh. their Partners if they're investing uh. they want to see uh watch their. interactions with other men very. carefully see potential signs of. flirtation. um and then an extreme in modern. environment they they hack into their.

computers and cell phones or put. tracking devices on them and so forth. this increase in vigilance. um all the way up through things like um. ramping up the benefits they bestow on. the woman so well if that if she's maybe. looking at other men maybe I better ramp. up my investment in her and show her. that I'm really the guy she wants to. stay with. all the way up to really horrible things. like abuse. where.

um if there's the threat of. um infidelity or defection from the. relationship some men beat up their. partners. and infidelity or suspicion of. infidelity. or suspicion that the woman is thinking. about leaving these are the triggers of. the more violent. male tactics and the kind of. uncomfortable I want to say truth of the. matter is uncomfortable I'll call it a. hypothesis though is which is going to.

sound horrible but that this abuse is. sometimes functional. in the sense that. um it is designed to dissuade the woman. from an infidelity and from leaving the. relationship. and one of the mechanisms by which it it. works is is a the threat. if you leave me I will track you down to. the ends of the Earth and kill you in. extreme cases but if you leave me I will.

you know inflict a lot of costs on you. of course I don't use that kind of. language but the other way that it works. is psychologically where it lowers the. woman's self-esteem so no woman feels. good about herself if her husband's beat. her up she feels bad about herself. and self-esteem is partly a monitoring. device that monitors your mate value. that is how desirable you are on the. median market and so if you feel bad.

about yourself then a woman might think. well no one else is going to like Beyond. so I better stick with this guy even. though he's he's abusive because I'm. never going to find anyone else and he. CL he claims that he loves me and he's. apologetic about it and says he's never. going to do it again but of course as we. know abuse tends to escalate over time. so why do we think that is. um uh I uh that's a good question.

um I've never never thought about that. one I could speculate on it um. uh one one is that by the time it occurs. so it often starts as verbal abuse. um so with the with the guy putting the. woman down or insulting her appearance. you know and then what we found on our. studies of couples is that uh it can. sometimes escalate the verbal abuse. predicts it escalating to physical abuse. you know and that could start very mild.

he pushes her slaps her or whatever and. then gets increasingly uh severe over. time partly because the monitor forms. might cease to work and by the time the. abuse is happening she's probably. already thinking oh I'm in a bad. relationship I better exit. um or yeah exit from the relationship. and. this is one of these things really this. is a tangent on the tangent which is.

which is totally fine uh but um I think. one of the things that happens and this. is also a speculation. is that. um. older men sometimes snap up younger. women before they have sufficient. experience to understand their own mate. value their own desirability on the. mating Market. and then so they get in a relationship. with this older guy who's convinced her. that she's he's the world's greatest guy.

um but then over time she starts to. realize that her mate value and a mate. value discrepancy that is that she can. do better on the baby Market than the. guy that she's with. um. a classic example uh this is an old. little example but. um but you might be you might remember. this so uh there was this guy this this.

evolved Playboy magazine but there was. this guy Paul Snyder. um who uh picked up Dorothy Stratton she. was like working at a burger flipping. joint up in I think it was Vancouver and. anyway uh he thought she could be in. Playboy and so he brought her down to LA. and turned out. she she was and. um but anyway but at the Playboy Mansion. she met other people who were higher in. made value.

um and um let's see what what is that. director's name Peter bugdonovich I. think she started an affair with him and. got very serious about that relationship. but meanwhile this guy Paul Snyder who. is psychopathic he was the example of. the dark Triad guys. um you know he was kind of left in the. dust but part of the reason is that he. kind of snapped her up when she was. super young before she had. a good understanding of her desirability. on the mating Market.

so. um anyway to to I wanted to to close the. loop before before I uh before I forget. my digression on a digression but that. tangent the reason why you went on it is. because you were talking about violence. and abuse. well is that relate to that story well. well uh yeah he ended up killing her. okay you didn't you left yeah I left. that part out sorry yeah yeah he ended. up I didn't understand where you were. going with that yeah it sounded like she.

left him yeah yeah uh he uh well she did. and he convinced her to meet with him. one last time. for old time's sake and and he killed. her and they killed himself so extreme. extreme case. but but actually The Point of Departure. was The Meta theory of sex differences. uh and so and so I mentioned so far two. elements of sex differences in our. reproductive Biology one is much early. in our conversation where I mentioned.

this asymmetry and obligatory parental. investment and then the second that I. mentioned is um. the fact that fertilization occurs. internally within women not within men. and so and these are two huge. differences in a reproductive biology. and then there are others so for example. women but not men breastfeed they. lactate and ancestrally infant would. live or die depending on whether the. woman could successfully lactate uh you.

know in the modern environment you can. go buy in a formula but ancestrally. there was no formula around and so this. was another two to three some In some. cultures four-year investment by the. woman again metabolically costly because. she has to be consuming more calories. but. um so uh and then um uh I'll mention one. other one uh well maybe I'll I'll stop. there so the notion is that when you.

have these fundamental sex differences. in our reproductive biology it would be. astonishing and defy all logic identify. everything that we know about the way. evolution by selection works if there. were not corresponding sex differences. in our psychology in our behavior and in. our mating strategies and what we do. find is that it is precisely in those. domains where we see these large. psychological sex differences.

differences psychological behavioral and. strategic sex differences and so it's. not a theory that. men are familiars and women are from. Venus it's a very precise Theory and. even. um just a quick example so men's and. women's taste preferences tend to be. very similar to each other you know we. both like things that are high in sugar. fat salt and protein the sugar being you. know ripe fruit ancestrally. but when do their taste preferences.

change they change suddenly when a woman. becomes pregnant and all of a sudden she. has two problems that she's never faced. before and that men never face one is. she's eating for two rather than one but. the other is she has to avoid ingesting. what are called teratogenic substances. that is toxins that in my new quantities. are not dangerous to the adult woman or. man but can if they pass the placental.

barrier can be can be dangerous to the. fetus and so even things like all of a. sudden they don't want to eat broccoli. why broccoli well broccoli turns out to. contain this these minute. um toxins that could be damaging to the. fetus and same with other things like uh. coffee and other other sorts of things. and so people attribute women's taste. parts and they say she wants pickles and. ice cream and her she's kind of just. become wacky because she's pregnant but. there's actually a logic to the shift in.

taste preferences. and so the point is that. her taste preferences. diverge from those of men's when she's. facing this different Suite of adaptive. problems that no man has ever faced and. then after that after the breastfeeding. her taste preferences returned to be. very similar to those of men. and so. um so where we expect to see the sex. differences as I said fall very heavily. in The Mating and sexuality domain but. that domain just to finish that.

long-winded sentence and I apologize for. monologuing about this. but that domain is much larger than most. people think. and and that is because mating is. related to so many other things it's. related to status it's related to. Warfare It's related to kinship like. family relations anything how in the. world is it related to family version.

well it turns out. um parents have a very strong interest. in The Mating lives of their offspring. but especially the mating lives and sex. lives of their daughters. so that we've developed what I call the. with my former students the daughter. guarding hypothesis where and this is. true in all cultures. parents are more restrictive about their. daughter's sexuality and and mating they. want to be they want to meet the guy.

she's going out the same impose stronger. curfews on their daughters compared to. their sons they uh a lot of the sons. more a lot more freedom more latitude. they. um they engage in this this daughter. guarding Behavior. um and part of the reason for that is. that you know women are an. extraordinarily valuable reproductive. resource men are. Expendable so to speak. is that really the strategy or is the.

strategy is your concern that your. daughter is going to get pregnant. whereas you're not concerned that your. son is going to be pregnant I think. that's very simplified well well well. yeah no of course yeah and and I. apologize for oversimplifying in that. way but the daughter getting pregnant. yes. at the wrong time with the wrong guy. well at the wrong time specifically when. they're young right when you're opposing. curfews you're assuming that this is not.

an adult yeah right so you you don't. want your child to get pregnant so. you're imposing curfews and keep an eye. on you eyeing them also because you. understand men so you understand like. the more they're around men the later it. is at night the or males I should say. the more chance they have of running. into trouble yeah yeah as you're not. worried about the man you're worried. about the man getting someone else in. trouble more than you worry about them.

physically being in trouble yeah. absolutely and so but but what this does. is a kind of highlights the. in what we call the difference between. proximate explanations and ultimate. explanations so there's the the. psychology. that's driving this which is exactly as. you describe and there's the The. evolutionary forces that have created. that psychology uh and and so and so and. so both are important they're kind of. complementary forms of explanation so.

you know analogous to. um if I ask you well why did you eat. that plate of food you might say well I. was hungry and it smelled good and I. knew from my history it tasted good so I. ate it that's approximate mechanism or. why did you have sex with that person. well I found them attractive you know. we're not aware of the underlying. adaptations that led to the qualities.

that you find tasty or attractive. of course but you're literally talking. about your child when you're talking. about curfews right so I would imagine. the primary concern is your child. getting pregnant at an early age it's. not whether or not she's a fantastic. resource for Reproductive right right. but but in fact that they are these. fantastic resources of course and uh if. you look cross-culturally the people who. try to control them it's mainly the. father but also some other kin members.

they often use the daughters as a form. of um yeah bartering a lion Alliance. formation yeah um and so um and and. they're much more valuable in that sense. than they are for Sons yeah. um here's something that I really wanted. to talk to you about today. um because I think it's a new thing in. the world and it is social media and. social media's effect on. relationships and the way people are.

marketing themselves because uh you know. I I have seen uh friends that have uh. these relationships with people that. they. like they're con they're significant. other has a Instagram page for example. where every single pose is sexually. suggestive they're in a committed. relationship but every single pose is. them of their ass their their button.

here they're arched back they're covered. in sweat you know they're wearing. lingerie they're wearing you know very. small outfit they're in these suggestive. poses I'm like you're signaling to try. to get more mates you're you're you're. putting out this very clear signal that. you're available and that you are you're. you're looking for a romantic partner in.

fact you're horny and you're you're. ready and you're willing and there's not. even anybody there with you right which. is kind of wild yeah what I I would. imagine that would put a tremendous. strain on a committed relationship if. you are committed to someone. and then you're like well let me see. what my wife is up to and you go to her. Instagram page like Jesus Christ woman. like where every day she's essentially. throwing the bat signal up for for more. men yeah yeah yeah no I imagine most men.

in committed relationships who would be. rather alarmed at discovering that but. it's happening a lot yeah like I have. friends more than one whose wife or. girlfriend does this and and and what's. your what what's your your guess why are. they doing that. well I think it's what we talked about. before there's narcissism there's. um. some sort of uh a lack of attention a. fundamental lack of attention in the.

development cycle that's LED them to. desire and exorbitant amount of male. attention as they get older. um you know it's just it's almost like. their cycle was interrupted as they were. young they've never fully matured. whether their father wasn't around or. their father was abusive they're. physically or sexually like whatever it. is that's causing them to desire an. exorbitant amount of male attention yeah. yeah and then it becomes and then the. other problem part of the problem is it.

becomes a business. you know because a lot of these women. they will then start do you know what an. only fans is yeah so they'll then start. an only fans and so men will subscribe. to get small messages from them or you. know to get individualized photos or. videos from them and these women make an. extraordinary amount of money yeah and. it's really quite shocking so they're. making you know way more than they've.

ever made in their life doing this but. yet they're in a committed relationship. with man and so the man has to deal with. the fact that not only is his woman out. there like on display but she's. signaling that she's Desiring better. mates yeah yeah well and and. um. I think your point about some. developmental issue is relevant we do. have empirical data on attachment Styles.

so. um basically there are these uh they. call them three different attachment. Styles which is an oversimplification. but securely attached so you know do you. tend to trust other people you're you. know you feel confident in a stable. relationship there's a anxious attached. which is you're you're always worried. your partner is going to leave you or. cheat on you or maybe you have a history. of Partners leaving you or cheating on. you and then there's what's called um.

ambivalent attachment style where there. are people both men and women who um. they don't really. want an intimate romantic relationship. they kind of avoid if someone gets too. close they kind of push push them away. and in studies of infidelity the. securely attached have the lowest rates. of infidelity and my guess probably the. lowest rates of these Instagram posts or.

you know only fans. vocations. whereas and then the second uh is uh the. anxious attached but the the most is um. in terms of infidelity rate is the. avoidant attachment style and so women. with that avoidant attachment style are. also likely to be high on narcissism and. probably engage in that behavior and. also could you please explain avoidant. yeah so so these um are people who don't.

like. close intimate relationships and so they. they avoid them and try to be if it gets. too close they push them away they want. to maintain their independence and so. even if they're married they still. there's this distance there's always. this pushing away. um of the other person and of intimacy. psychological intimacy with that other. person. uh and so these are you know women who.

are more likely to engage in short-term. mating and more likely to have affairs. if they're in a long-term mainship now. has there been studies done on those. type of people is is that because those. women have experienced abusive. relationships in the past and they're. worried about being committed to someone. because that person then starts to put. restrictions on them and and you know it. gets very jealous and very mean to them.

yeah yeah it's a good question and we. don't know so so there's some. speculations of the the dominant. thinking which I don't necessarily. subscribe to is that it really stems. from the mother infant attachment Bond. so if you have like a mother or other. parental figure who who wasn't there for. you who is erratic and and so you. couldn't rely on them then then the. notion is that the influencers they. can't rely on other people so they.

better do stuff by themselves on their. own that makes sense and the idea is. that that attachment style which some. claim gets fixed in infancy then carries. over into adulthood when you form. romantic relations and so the. um anxious or secure or ambivalent. attachment style. um in infancy gets transported into an. adult that's that's the theory anyway. well that that completely makes sense if.

your parents are never around or they. weren't reliable or they're shitty to. you yeah yeah yeah the the reason I just. uh want to add a note of. an asterisk by that is that yeah there. is a correlation they do find a. correlation between the infinite. hatchimal style and the later adult. attachment style but parents are also. contributing genes as well as. environment and so it might be that the. parents who themselves are kind of uh.

inconsistent not there for the kids or. whatever and are off maybe having. Affairs on their own or whatever. transmit genes to their children that. dispose them toward those Styles as well. as an environment and so studies haven't. been done to try to disentangle the. genetic effects versus these um parental. effects on attachment Style. interesting. um if you were going to study.

um social media and its impact on on. dating strategies. you one of the things that would be. really fascinating is the amount of. options. like if you're a single person today and. you have an Instagram page where you're. trying to present yourself as an. attractive mate you know. um one of the weirder things today is. manipulation right like people are using. filters and they're using these uh.

deceptive tactics that change the shape. of their body change the shape of their. face the tone of their skin I mean it's. really pretty extraordinary when you see. what can be done with these filters and. so there's that which is to signal to. others that they're more attractive than. they actually are physically then. there's you know virtue signaling in the. term in the form of what they write in. their posts you know whether they're.

proclaiming their support for climate. change or black lives matter or whatever. they're trying to put themselves into a. moral High Ground position and then. there's the sexually suggested of poses. that go along with that and hilariously. enough oftentimes you have all three of. those things combined like they're. trying to go for the coup de gras. they're kind of they're they're in their. underwear with their butt up in the air. talking about social issues while. they're using a filter yeah and it's I I.

would imagine that it that just this. platform. whether whichever one you're talking. about whether it's tick tock or. Instagram whatever these platforms are. fertile breeding grounds for all sorts. of pathologies. narcissism. sociopathy like all sorts of bizarre. behavioral characteristics that are. encouraged by these social media.

applications and the impact that it has. on people like oftentimes like I'll just. randomly scroll through uh my search yes. please thank you and uh I will find some. person. just of average human being who you know. takes photos in their underwear and they. have four million followers which is. insane yeah that's a lot of people. that's never been achieved before like. no one just hang around like working at.

the post office has ever gotten four. million Instagrams but if you have a. nice butt and you work out a lot and you. take pictures of yourself you can get. four million followers and so then you. have direct messages from who knows how. many thousands of men who are trying to. hook up with this person and link up. with them and so that kind of. interaction and that though that amount. of dating options.

it's like it's this is an unheard of. experience this is an unheard of. like situation for a young woman to try. to navigate yeah yeah absolutely I mean. I think that. I mean the question you raise is is. really a big big and important question. um and to put it in an evolutionary. context is ancestrally you would have. been exposed. to maybe a few dozen potential mates in.

your lifetime you know we lived in small. groups there was very limited Geographic. Mobility you couldn't say I'm gonna up. and move to a different town you know. you were basically limited by how far. you could walk. so we were exposed to very very few. people and so now in this weird modern. environment we have as you mentioned. um Instagram only fans online dating. apps uh pornography is another one which. is massively consumed.

um heavily by men. um and so these inputs into our mating. psychology it it we don't know fully. what they are at this point there. haven't there hasn't been long enough. and we don't know there have been enough. studies but there have been some studies. that show for example that men who are. exposed repeatedly to images like the. ones you describe on Instagram. repeatedly exposed to images of.

attractive and sexually attractive women. um decrease their commitment to their. regular partner if they're in a regular. mate chip and so it actually has a uh. the effect of undermining long-term. committed relationships. um it also I think gives people the. illusion that. um sometimes it's called um you know if. you talk about single people it's called. um. um decision paralysis where you know. it's like they should show this in.

stores like uh where they if you present. six jams and say you taste six jams and. people go oh I like this when they buy. George M you present 24 samples of jams. people go I can't decide I'm not going. to buy anything and I think a similar. thing is happening in The Mating domain. is where people see these thousands or. millions of potential mates out there or. think that their potential mates aren't. there and I think it's caused a decrease. in committed relationships and we know.

we know I can't definitively trace it to. that but we know. very certainly that there has been a. diminution of. relationships. romantic relationships marriage. Offspring production where a lot of. people are sitting in front of their. screen. um getting presumably some of their. needs met through the these online. forums rather than in real life.

um and I think that these uh are likely. to have. fairly detrimental and possibly. catastrophic effects long term you know. because even things like um you know. from a male perspective. uh what it means if you're spending all. your time in front of a computer screen. looking at Instagram photos of women. with butts in the air or pornography. um you're not out there interacting with. real women in real life and so you're.

not developing the kinds of social. skills you need to attract a real woman. in real life. and then also I think the other thing. that this creates is. um is different forms of anxiety so we. know for example that a lot of the men. suffer from dating anxiety you know that. as they feel they fear rejection and so. they don't want to approach women so it. actually is the the narcissist and the. Psychopaths who don't fear any rejection. and they're they um boldly go.

um but um but a lot of men do have you. know what I would call dating anxiety. they you know and so they get. intimidated uh by women and then. furthermore even and this is a. speculation but. uh watching porn I think can have a. detrimental effect on both women and men. uh in the following sense of is that we. are a species that engages in Social. comparison it's one of the things that. we do and I guess maybe when you were.

talking about Envy uh earlier of Envy of. other people's accomplishments that's. one facet of that we we compare. ourselves to others and it's it's a. human nature kind of thing we you know. how how well am I doing compared to my. neighbor or or uh or or whatever so but. if if people are comparing themselves to. what they're seeing on porn than from a. woman's perspective she's she thinks.

well men are expecting me to be a sexual. acrobat in in real life and so it's. created these um perhaps detrimental. expectations from women and then men see. these guys who can go for 45 minutes. and who have. um. is the average male penis is about. um five and a half inches long erect.

the average porn star is eight inches. long with the 2002 record. um. top porn star guy 13 inches. um 2002 to sorry to 2022. okay uh I was. like I bet that someone beat that guy. yeah yeah 2022. yeah yeah the current. the current porn star record holder is. uh 13 inches so. um so but even if you just take the.

average. eight inches compared to the average guy. so guys you can imagine looking at this. so well I'm going to feel inadequate you. know compared to this guy and so and. maybe women expect. this kind of performance and this level. of uh General size. and are going to be intimidated and so I. think that's going to create what I. would call sexual anxiety so even if. they can overcome the dating anxiety.

they might have anxiety about turning. the dating relationship into a sexual. encounter where they might feel due to. watching porn sexually inadequate or. unsure of their abilities and so these. things we know anxiety tends to cause. people to avoid the things that they're. anxious about which of course is the. worst thing that you can do I mean we. know one of the most effective therapies. is uh for anxiety problems is a.

cognitive behavior therapy and causes. people both to psychologically reframe. the issue but also expose themselves to. the things they're afraid of so if. you're if you have snake phobia the best. way to conquer that is you do this. successive approximations and then you. get to the point where you actually can. handle the snake and you don't feel fear. and these. specific types of anxiety or they're. very curable I mean there are some. things that we can't cure like.

schizophrenia we can deal with symptoms. but we can't cure them but the specific. anxiety is they've had very good success. uh at curing but the worst thing you can. do is avoid the things you're afraid of. and so I think that these media. exposures like Instagram and pornography. and and even the online dating sites. where the similar forms of deception you. mentioned you know the um the filters. and you know the images that are. presented that are totally. unrepresentative of what the person.

looks like that they occur randomly on. online dating sites as well of course. the other thing about online dating. sites and I I've often thought about. this uh with uh single people is the. amount of options that you have or it's. so extraordinary that it's probably very. difficult to get to truly know someone. and just get to know them as an. individual because you're constantly. fielding all these requests from other. people and so if someone just annoys you.

even slightly like onto the next right. and you're just swiping back and forth. and trying to find someone else yeah I. mean that's a it's and on one hand I. would say it's better because you have. more options so there's the potential of. finding that one person who really is a. perfect mate for you but on the other. hand the idea that you would just. abandon someone at the very the. slightest bad joke or the slightest uh.

weird tick weird thing to do oh this. guy's not for me and then right what. else I got I have 1400 requests coming. in on my dating app why would I spend. some time with this guy you know who. only makes x amount of money when this. guy makes twice as much and this guy is. looks like he's taller and this guy's a. better car and this guy look at his. house I'm gonna talk to this guy guy. standing in front of his driveway of. this gorgeous house like that kind of. stuff is so unusual for the human for a.

human being who's a single person in the. dating world to have this kind of data. this kind of input and this kind of. stimuli coming your way like there's. really never been anything like that and. I am very curious I mean as a father of. daughters and as an uh you know a man. who grew up without the internet I'm. like I can't imagine what it's like for. someone to try to navigate this world.

because no one's done it before yeah. it's not like anyone successfully become. an Instagram hoe and and then went on to. raise families and showed you it has. zero impact on the happiness of my. relationship like no there's no never. never been anybody like you before yeah. like there's never been a person who has. seven million Instagram followers. because they have a nice ass yeah it's. really never existed before so like. those people have to kind of navigate. this extraordinary new thing on their.

own without any guidance yeah yeah. because it is yeah and it's it's. evolutionarily unprecedented yeah um and. it's it's what evolutionists would call. a mismatch there's this phenomenal. mismatch between ancestral and modern. environments yes that as as you point. out I think has some positive effects. like you know now you can meet someone. maybe there's someone we live in Austin. Texas but maybe there's someone in San. Antonio or Dallas or whatever that is uh.

would be the perfect mate for us and. then we have that accessible now where. we wouldn't in the past right but at the. same time then it produces this decision. paralysis yes and the psychological. stance that you know there's always. someone a little bit better out there. which is why when people ask me for. advice and I'm not actually I'm. basically a reason psychologist so I'm. not primarily in the advice giving. business but I say meet the person in. real life you know don't stop you know.

dming or or messaging them you know week. after week after week because you have. to meet the person in real life before. you really know and and you have to meet. them I would imagine more than one time. before their act gets tired absolutely. because people put on an act well yeah. not only that many of the qualities that. are critical for long-term mating. success you can't assess in one snapshot. right you know like that so things like. emotional stability how does this person.

handle stress you know are they Moody. were they resilient many of these things. require exposure over a long period of. time and usually in different situations. that's why one other random piece of. advice which everyone should take with. the grain of salt is I sometimes. encourage people if they're getting. serious about someone to go on vacation. I go to a foreign country where they. don't know anybody where maybe even they.

don't speak language and so they're kind. of forced to experience some stresses. some. ambiguities some novelty and then you. can get a better gauge of how the person. responds to the stress and to the. novelty as opposed to if you're just. always in a meeting in you know at Cafe. Medici you know for your some glamorous. place you're having cocktails together. and everything's perfect yeah yeah but.

yeah go to Guatemala yeah yeah go. backpacking yeah yeah stay in a hostel. together yeah yeah well and yeah you'd. want to curate exactly where where you. go and so I've been to Guatemala and uh. there there are some dangerous places. there as there are everywhere of course. but of course I mean Guatemala is you. probably know I mean there's like. extreme economic inequality there and uh. it's um. as a consequence I think produce some.

high crime rates and people have you. know zero money and they're kind of. forced into. um criminal activity great place to test. out a new relationship yeah yeah at a. risk. the woman would find out very clearly. how well this guy's going to be a good. bodyguard yes because that's one thing. women select on is. um not only the physical qualities is he. going to be a good protector but also is. he psychologically does he have courage.

and boldness to be a good protector even. if he has the physical capability of it. does is he going to be able to face down. someone who's you know uncomfortably. accosting his girlfriend right right. yeah that's um that's uh that's a giant. factor for women that people want to. deny exists. there's a lot of weird uh cultural. influences on the denial of these basic.

premises that you're discussing about. why women are attracted to certain men. and men are attracted to certain women. that's what's disturbing to me is this. sort of wholesale acceptance of this. denial the where we're you know we're. deciding that there is no difference. and that you know these differences are. cultural and these differences are.

purely brought upon by the patriarchal. society to try to suppress members of. the opposite sex and it's just it. doesn't back up with science yeah yeah. yeah exactly and even you know uh. patriarchy uh is an interesting one that. I've written about in in my most recent. book. um where. um it it's it's kind of bizarre because. and people won't like this either so uh.

talk about. um scientifically uncomfortable truths. so so one is that if you ask the. question historically it has been true. that men have more than women tended to. control resources and power okay and. that's been true of most cultures you. know throughout history as far as we we. know but then the issue is why. um well if you go back to sexual. selection theory that we were talking. about earlier. part of the part of the causal chain.

boils down to women's maid preferences. so women. preferentially select men who have the. ability and willingness to acquire and. control resources and so that in turn. selects for men who have the motivation. to do precisely those things and so if. you ask the question what is the origin. of this thing we call patriarchy which. is usually invoked when you say what do. you mean by patriarchy because well I. don't know everyone knows what it means.

well no it means different things so one. aspect of it is resource control but of. course there are other aspects of it and. so. um and so it may be disturbing to some. to recognize that women's mate. preferences are part of the causal chain. that led to an outcome that they don't. like in the current time but but to your. point you know I mean I'm I'm a. scientist and so you go with with the. data and I object to and find.

um. abhorrent. the infusion of ideology into the. science so and and this is hap this is. indeed happening as you as you allude to. it's happening more and more and I think. that. I'm hoping that there will be a swing. back in the other direction when people. will say hey look no wait let's keep. ideology out of this yes because it it. doesn't have a belonging in in science.

isn't that a recent thing the the. injection of ideology into science well. um. I don't know I think it's gotten worse I. think that's it's always existed in. American psychology to some degree in. American social science anyway which is. you know what what examples. um and this may not exactly fall in. ideology but I'm sure have you had Steve. Pinker on yeah sure okay well a couple.

times yeah okay well I'm I'm a big fan. of his I've been asthma uh friends with. him for for many many years and his book. The Blank Slate. um lays all this out I'll tell you a. story uh kind of about the blanks like. when I was in graduate school so when I. was in graduate school I had multiple. mentors which is a good thing something. I always recommend to my students. um but one of these mentors was a woman. who her theory is that the reason that. you see any sex differences at all when.

you see him is because. socialization so they dress parents. dress girls in pink they dress Boys in. blue and that's why you see sex. differences they give boys Tonka trucks. and baseball bats and they give girls. Barbie dolls and she even she published. in the top journals there was a science. documentary literally called the pinks. and the blues that kind of captures that. whole thing and I was skeptical as a. graduate student you know really so the.

notion that people come into this world. is blank slates makes absolutely no. evolutionary sense you know the notion. that we are just these passive. receptacles of whatever you know the. culture or parents have happened to put. in there it can't be we evolve to be. active strategists that pick and choose. well no that doesn't make sense to me or. I'm going to follow this rather than. that person you know we're not passive. receptacle and and that's sort of the. implicit notion of the blank slate is.

that humans are just these passive. absorbers of whatever happened they. happen to be exposed to. um and so uh and so weirdly I had this. Mentor who who believed in the blank. State and that there were no evolve sex. differences no fundamental. cross-culturally Universal evolved sex. differences and then you know here I am. many years later. um is studying precisely that evolves. sex differences and and and I would say. that. the science denialism uh and the.

ideological denialism will become. increasingly difficult because as you. undoubtedly know Joe there's been a you. know what's called the replication. crisis in the social sciences and also. in medicine as well you know where. people you know the payoffs are you know. you you publish high impact surprising. findings and some sometimes they don't. replicate and. um often they don't replicate and so. um uh.

the the sex differences that we've been. talking about sex differences and make. preferences and desire for sexual. variety Etc uh in motivations for having. Affairs these are among the largest most. replicable findings in the whole field. of psychology you know most. um you know for for those of your. listeners who are statistically inclined. most effect sizes are in Psychology are. very very small you know they there's an. effect you know but it just barely. reaches statistical significance and you.

know translates into uh like a d. statistic of. 0.3.25 these are the sex differences. that we're talking about are large you. don't even have to I can show you a. graph. of them and you don't even have to run. the statistics to see yes there's. something fundamentally wrongly the bars. for men are here the bars for women are. there or reversed and so these are large. replicable sex differences and so you. really have to be. um.

really severely ideologically driven to. uh to deny them and so I like to think. that over the long run the the empirical. fact of the science will prevail. um but um that's why it's been. surprising to me that I mean these are. some of these have been demonstrated for. the last 20 30 years and then now we. live in this weird time of sex. difference denialism. which doesn't make sense it's not just. that we live in a world of sex.

difference to nihilism but it's become. the primary philosophy it's it's it's. not it's not rare it's it's actually. promoted in mainstream media it's. promoted in television and print. journalism and it's promoted as if it's. a fact yeah and by and by some uh social. scientists as well or claim to be. scientists yeah well they're leaning. into the same sort of ideology that's on.

campuses yeah and they get captured by. it and then they're they're saying these. things so that they're accepted by the. clan right by the group right right and. and and and deviation from those. narratives you know uh sometimes comes. at some Peril yeah it's very serious. social consequences but but but Joe let. me let me just give an example of how um. misguided that ideological stance is for. women. um and this is something I also talk. about in in my most recent book sexual.

harassment so sexual harassment laws are. written in a gender-neutral manner of. What's called the reasonable person's. standard. and the notion is you know would a. reasonable person view this pattern of. conduct like I say making lewd jokes uh. commenting on someone's physical. appearance uh. asking them out in the workplace.

I'm making sexual innuendos Etc with a. reasonable person find this to be sexual. harassment well it turns out studies. that I've done and other people have. done. um men and women differ so women viewed. exactly that same pattern of conduct to. be more sexually harassing than men do. men go. um it doesn't seem pretty innocuous to. me by the man or from a woman well well. uh both so if you just say if a man is. doing this to a woman how harassing is.

that right men and women judge that. differently. okay and the reason that's important is. because there is no generic reasonable. person and so we know that in terms of. sexual harassment about 90 percent of. the victims are are women of legitimate. sexual harassment or women. and the 10 that are not they're. typically harassed by men so that as. males are the primary perpetrators of. sexual harassment women of primary.

victims so but if you have so when. you're saying that 10 you're talking. about a male sexually harassing another. male yes but what about women that. sexually harass men like what percentage. of that is like bosses that sexually. harass their male that occurs but at a. much lower rate right so less than one. percent like yeah I don't I would give. it you know a few percent perhaps but. but it's statistically pretty rare um. that's interesting though the the. primary even the 10 percent where it's.

not men sexually harassing women it's. men sexually harassing men right right. which are gross Yeah well yeah well or. that that's that. um desire for sexual variety which has. uh negative consequences but so that. then you go though so to um the judge. and the jury if the judge and jury are. composed of reasonable men. the outcome is going to be very.

different than if they're composed of. reasonable women and so and so this is. an example of where adopting a generic. reasonable person standard which. implicitly denies that there exists any. sex differences that harms women. um at least in cases where the. reasonable people doing the judging are. are men right so if you have a jury of. your peers where your peers happen to. only be male and they're judging whether. or not you've been sexually harassed.

they might be inclined to deny it right. right exactly and I'll give you like one. one extreme case this is an extreme case. and and not representative but there was. a a while back a Texas politician uh. that said if a woman's going to be raped. um and it's inevitable she might as well. just lie back and enjoy it. uh someone said that yeah this is a. politician a Texas politician when was. this this was a while back I don't. remember the exact year but now of. course he got a lot of flack for that.

but what's astonishing is it also. reveals to me this fundamental gap. between male and female. sexual psychology where men don't. understand. they they know that women differ but. they don't sufficiently. recalibrate for how different they are. and so I think this is actually a. generic problem that my lab is focusing. on now some of my my graduate students. like will Costello and and Becca hannel.

and Paolo Ibaka we're looking at what we. call cross-sex mind reading where it is. a fascinating area where we are all you. Joe me. um we're all stuck in the interior of. our own psychology that's that's. actually Russell Brand mentioned this. this all the experience that he has and. so when we're trying to figure out. what's going on in the minds of someone. else we have to make inferences now if.

those inferences if we consult well how. would I feel if I were in that situation. well maybe that's a good starting point. if you're making inferences about your. own sex. um but if you're making inferences about. the opposite sex you're going to be. miscalibrated if you use your own. intuitions about your own psychology as. a basis for that inference and so we. know based on my work and other people's. work that there are indeed systematic. biases where men and women are both.

miscalibrated about what's going on in. the other Sexes mind and so I think it's. very important this is one of the ways. to reduce what you alluded to as this. kind of um. adversarial conflict between the Sexes. where where some women are slamming all. men you know as part of the patriarchy. and then there are some men who were. slamming all women you know and. misogynistic you know elements of the. manosphere and there's this kind of.

adversarial stance between the Sexes and. I think one solution to bridging that is. having deeper scientific knowledge about. really that there are these fundamental. sex differences in our mating and sexual. psychology and that if you understand. those you'll be in a better position to. interact with members of the opposite. sex and you won't make so many of these. errors interesting only one way to do. that is if you have um daughters and.

sons so even on those so you mentioned. you have two daughters three three. daughters um well congratulations zero. Sons zero Sons okay so so that's. interesting so. um uh I wonder if you if you had a Sons. whether you would treat them differently. so for sure. um okay so and so why up here so why. would you treat it this is dangerous. okay sons are dangerous you have to you. have to train them to have discipline.

and to understand testosterone and. understand their urges and not react. violently and understand your frontal. lobe doesn't fully form until you're 25. years old you're going to make some. shitty decisions okay yeah okay because. I've done it I've been there okay yeah. as have we are yeah I mean I am a man. when I when I'm around women I'm like. okay I have to figure out how your brain. works I don't know how your brain works. I'm guessing I kind of have a rough. understanding yeah it's uh you know it's. a it's a map of the territory it's not.

lived experience yeah yeah and that's. that's true of all of us. um you know one one but I want to get. back to this because this is what I. think is so important I don't see a path. in with today's current cultural climate. where people are going to accept the. scientific differences between the Sexes. because it's moving in a general. direction of denial of that and not just. denial of it in terms of their mating. strategies but also their physical.

capabilities which is leading to. transgender athletes competing as. biological women or competing against. biological women and dominating in. sports that's a part of this ideology. which is a willful ignorance of the the. actual basic biological differences. between men and women the psychological. differences between men and women and. the biological differences between men. and women and there's a celebrating of. ignoring those things not just ignoring.

those things but of deciding to believe. a set of ideas that has no basis in. science or fact. it in fact can be refuted by science and. facts yeah well uh yeah and uh I I guess. um my hope uh is that this is um a. transient phase and that this infusion. of that ideology into sex difference.

denialism. um uh will will eventually collapse. um uh and I think one way in which it. might collapse is with the sort of work. that I'm trying to do which is in part. showing how the sex difference denialism. harms women so an example you don't even. have to go to psychology to do that go. to Field of medicine. um and when they introduced Ambien the.

generic. Zolpidem they they the in the medical. field they typically test the tested. these drugs they don't so much anymore. on men and they assume same thing. applies to women and so with the Ambien. they were giving exactly the same doses. that were appropriate for men to women. and it turns out women are much more. sensitive even correcting for body size. body weight to Ambien and so it resulted. in negative medical outcomes as a.

consequence of assuming that Sexes were. identical and same is happening with. some other drugs like clonazepam and so. but my hope is that by showing because a. lot of people. um are. espousing this ideology I think because. they think that any difference if you. find any sex difference it's going to be. used against women against denying women. or discriminating against women I think. that's part of part of what's motivating. or animating the ideology well why do.

you think there's that inclination why. do people think that. um uh I I don't know I think part of it. has been historical so we've seen and. this has been fascinating cultural. change in in our lifetimes where it used. to be you go back 30 years and males. were you know dominant in almost all. fields in among undergraduates there. were more males than females doctors. lawyers Etc and so there was this view.

that women were discriminated against. and so there was a big movement to open. the doors. to the workplace and to educate higher. education for women now what we've seen. and this is really remarkable is a. reversal when it comes to education and. increasingly income where so for example. University of Texas here in Austin. there's a sex ratio imbalance at the. undergraduate level it's about 54 women.

and about 46 percent men which may not. seem like a huge difference but it's. actually a profound difference when it. when it comes to the mating market and. this is happening not just the United. States it's happening in all of Western. Europe and as well as South Korea Japan. et cetera women are outpacing men in. education I think I have a hypothesis. about why that's the case is you take. off the restraints you make things open.

to everybody well we know women. personality wise are more conscientious. than men men are more likely they go in. through the K through of schools men are. more likely to have ADD they can't. they're less likely to be able to sit. still and attend to the school or. whatever and so these girls get better. grades going up and said they're better. qualified to get into the elite colleges. and so you have more women represented. in these colleges and universities.

um and then maybe combined with. the sex difference in things like online. gaming you know where many more males. than females you know get addicted to. online gaming and that sort of thing. um and then online pornography is. another one which I think might have. this effect of kind of um sapping men's. motivation to meet women in real life I. think it might sort of um take the the. sexual edge off possibly.

um getting back to your issue about all. this modern technology that that is our. brains are being bombarded with in the. modern environment but we're seeing this. this true true reversal in the. educational domain and it's creating. dramatic problems of mating so so I. alluded to. um a couple before but just to mention. I'm actually working on a book with.

Chris Williamson who I think you know as. well he's here in Austin it's great yeah. he's a wonderful Guy and um we become. friends and we're our interests turn out. to coincide very well and he's a an. excellent uh Communicator of science I. don't know if you've seen his podcast. yeah I've had him on too yeah yeah I saw. that episode I thought that was terrific. but anyway he and I were writing a book. on on this and we're at the early stages. of it but we're trying to identify. what these big problems are that are.

occurring in The Mating domain and one. is that women are getting more educated. and and as they get educated they. advance to the higher degrees they they. are also getting older and so they're. transitioning toward the latter end of. their fertile window and this is another. key sex difference that we haven't. talked about yet is that women's. reproductive span is compressed into a. much smaller number of years compared to. men's men can can and sometimes do have.

kids in their 40s 50s 60s. Etc whereas women don't their fertility. drops off very sharply that the eggs. have an expiration date yeah as it turns. out one of the things that I talked to. Chris about that I'd love to hear your. perspective on is the effect that birth. control pills have on women. and reproduction and their their. reproductive strategy and what it the. way it affects how they are attracted to.

different specifically different kinds. of men yeah yeah there's some research. on that um I want to see it replicated. so there's some work that. um shows that some of it done by Sarah. hill by the way a professor at uh Texas. Christian University the former student. of mine and she's superb she's written a. book called your brain on birth control. which I recommended she would be cool to. have on your podcast yeah I'd love to. talk to her about that that's uh that to.

me is a very strange aspect of our. society yes that we're introducing these. endogenous hormones to millions of women. on a regular basis and it's affecting. their choices yes yeah and there's some. some evidence for that that women who. let's say get married or make that. commitment decision when they're on. birth control and then get off it all of. a sudden find themselves unhappy with. their regular relationship and so. um so we'll have to see as I said I want. to see this work replicated a bit more.

before I believe it. um but I think there's clearly something. there and Sarah Hill will be the the. perfect person to talk to about that but. yeah that's another example of how we're. introducing these. um novel evolutionarily novel. Technologies into our system and we. don't really know what the collateral. effects are when you're talking about uh. the effects of birth control on the. choices that you make in a relationship.

and that the women when they get off. birth control that they're no longer. interested in their current mate like. what are the characteristics that lead. them to be dissatisfied when they get. off birth control yeah that allowed them. when they're on birth control to be. attracted yeah I wish I could answer. that question but it's. um it's been a while since uh since I've. read Sarah's book and so I would defer. to her on that it is a but it is one of.

many things that uh people have to deal. with particularly women have to deal. with right because a male birth control. pill there was one that they were. developing but it radically reduced. testosterone which I think is going to. be very unattractive to men and I have a. suspicion that most men are not going to. want to take that yeah but the birth. control pill for women has had. a very bizarre change in the way women. see men are attracted to men the type of. men they're attracted to when they're on.

that right and there's some some. evidence that these hormonal. contraceptives can also influence in a. negative way. um sexual desire and um orgasmic ability. so again perhaps collateral damage that. no one anticipated. yeah the um do you think that the. differences in the Sexes is that is that. the area of your work that has had the. most pushback because of this uh.

ideological argument that people have. that there is no difference and it's all. cultural yeah absolutely yeah yeah when. you had debates with people about this. uh yes I have yeah yeah in in scientific. meetings so uh so there was one so there. was one with a woman named Alice egley. who has long promoted which he calls the. it used to call it social rule Theory. and that is that there are no. psychological differences between men. and women but Society whatever that does.

says okay Joe you're a male we're going. to put you in this role and you know. your daughter is there females we're. going to put them in a different role. and that all sex differences are a. product of these quote rule assignments. you know which is um uh uh it's I think. turned out to be I think. um I I guess imprint it's inherently a. blank slate kind of theory. um that has been pretty soundly refuted. uh by again another former student of.

mine apologize for keep mentioning. former students but this is David. Schmidt who's at Brunell University and. he's done massive cross-cultural studies. and finds that these sex differences are. in fact larger. in gender egalitarian countries she go. to Norway and Sweden. Denmark Finland where there's a even. more explicit sort of gender-neutral and. no sex difference ideology and finds.

that the sex stuff was sort of larger. there than in the countries that are. supposedly more. um gender in egalitarian and so it was. flatly contradicts the social rule. Theory because it says no you eliminate. these um you create gender equality in. the culture and the sex differences will. disappear and turns out no they don't. and in some cases they get larger. so what is the hypothesis in terms of. why they get larger.

um well uh that's unclear. um it might be and this is speculation. it might be that it in where you have. um greater Freedom uh for each sex to do. what they're naturally inclined to do. then the sex differences you know emerge. more strongly than the natural sex. difference that makes sense. um but but I don't know no one's no. one's really pinned down the the why. they get larger and so when this. argument is presented to people like. that woman who believes that these uh.

Behavior characteristics are just. because of roles that you're assigned. how does how does she respond to that. she hasn't so far as far as I'm aware uh. to these data these are data that have. come in the last five years or so. and they keep you know study after study. after study and if it was just one study. you could say okay I'm gonna ignore that. but now there's a whole raft of studies. that show exactly the same thing so my. guess is that the history of science. when it's written will not look kindly.

on that uh but you know what they they. maybe you've heard this the there's this. cliche that. scientists don't ever change their mind. they just die and are replaced by. younger people who don't grow up with. the same belief system. um so for a person like that who has. this belief system that seems to be. contradicted by facts what what is the. encouragement for someone like that to.

exist like why why is that. uh why does that type of person who is. giving out this incorrect data and. espousing this easily provable ideology. like what is the motivation well well in. in cases like hers the woman I just. mentioned they've built their entire. reputation their entire careers on this. Theory and so kind of admitting to the.

fact that the theory doesn't hold any. water they have no career yeah it. basically causes without their status. and Prestige to plummet um so what do. they do they just dig their head in the. sand and just yeah most of them just. cling to the theories and and very few. change their mind and how do they get. away with that when I would imagine that. if you're you're talking about academics. that they would want to find out what is.

true what is provable and what should be. taught and in this circumstance I would. imagine they would be challenged by. their peers and they would say your work. is [ __ ] like what you're doing is. muddying the water and making it far. more difficult for people like us we're. actually looking at the data objectively. and trying to come to a conclusion. that's beneficial for our understanding. of human beings what you're doing is. grifting. and we can't have that right right so um.

that's a great point and I think there. are a couple. answers to that and I'll just mention. two elements that I think are. contributing to that um bad outcome okay. one is that. these people and the woman I'm just. mentioned they they're self-replicating. so they produce students who then get. jobs and espouse the same theories that. they do so there's there's part of that. that's one but I think there's even a. deeper answer to your question and that.

is that I don't think we evolve to be. dispassionate scientists who just look. at the data and a judge and then change. our minds accordingly I think we evolved. and and there are some people like Dan. sperber and others who who argue this I. think persuasively that we evolve to be. persuaders we evolve to. influence other people to be. um uh manipulators if you will and then.

to to use a more negative term on it and. that. it's it's almost you have to. get outside of your own psychology to be. a dispassionate scientist and say okay. look I'm willing to I'm going to look at. the facts and and I like to think and. and maybe I'm self delusional that I'm. one of these people that will change. minds and as I mentioned I mentioned one. that I that I have changed by Mana which. is that dual mating good genes.

hypothesis where I used to you know talk. about it this is the why women have. affairs and I've the data don't support. it now in my view. um but but I think that that that is it. requires getting out of our own. psychology. and. uh and maybe even changing the the. reward structure you know and that's. going to be very very very difficult so. in other words rewarding people for.

being willing to accept data that. contradicts you know their their. ideology. uh and so um you know normally I mean. that's why I think you know science is a. good it's a method. and it and it's not a perfect method but. it's it's a good method in the sense. that it's supposed to be self-correcting. so if if Joe you have a theory that. proposes X and I have a theory that. proposes why then. um then other people will get into The.

Fray and and independent researchers. will do research and then they will. discover you know well do the data. support Joe or David's Theory and uh and. then so the there's a self-correcting. nature to the science ideally. but that ideal is. um really achieved and it's. it's especially difficult to achieve. when it comes to talking about humans. if you're talking about.

quarks or muons or some details of the. um uh of chemistry or something people. are able to be more dispassionate also. if you're starting with other species if. you're talking about peacocks people are. willing to be okay I can objectively. look at peacocks and try to figure out. what's going on but when it comes to. humans. um all bets are off on that. um. what a messy creature we are yes yeah. but but an interesting creature I think.

oh fascinating you know beyond. fascinating but it's just it's to me. it's so curious when these uh bizarre. messy characteristics. they interfere with our understanding of. reality. because I think that. um it's you mean we what you're. outlining is positive negative. interesting fascinating disturbing. characteristics of males and females and. I think these are this is a very.

important to study and understand when. that hits the wall of ideology and then. all of a sudden you're no longer allowed. to look at those things because they are. sexist or because they are misogynistic. or because they have been labeled in a. very certain way and that looking at. things and framing things things through. the eyes of Science and just using data. becomes problematic and that these. people are actually academics who are.

promoting this idea yeah and that they. did like you said self-replicate so they. self-replicate. excuse me self-replicate they have now. students who are also promoting these. ideas right and those students go on to. become professors right who are. promoting these same ideas none of them. were based in reality and it's all. funded. and people are paying money to send. their children to school so their. children come back and say well Mom and. Dad I don't know if you know this but.

there are no differences between men and. women and everything is cultural and. this is all [ __ ] and this is all the. patriarchy and you're like what the [ __ ]. am I paying for my kid's brain's getting. broken yeah and and strangely enough I. think there's almost an inverse. correlation between. um number of years of higher education. and ability to kind of see reality so. like yes if you stop just people on the. street the average man or a woman you.

know and said are there sex differences. they would say well yeah sure and they. could probably even tell you what many. of them are but it's like a this um yeah. inculcation of ideology which has as has. unfortunately infected universities and. in ways that I find appalling and. um have have gotten worse in my lifetime. and I always I got into this field. precisely for the reason that you allude. to because I'm I'm interested in finding.

out about human nature wherever that. leads me that what makes people tick. what motivates people what gets people. out of bed in the morning I have no. interest in maintaining a position that. is empirically incorrect right well it's. because you're not a grifter but. unfortunately academics. encourages grifting in a way that you. don't have to exist in the real world. and you you go from being a student in.

the university to eventually teaching at. a university and you will spend no time. in the real world outside of that and. then your very existence and. everything that you get from validation. from your peers and your students it's. all based on this grift right right that. you have been taught and are now. teaching and that you will you will. argue against empirical reality you will.

argue against science and data because. it does not support your grift and that. grift is being supported by a university. right right but that's which is wild. yeah but that's why I hope that that. this is uh that there will be a swing. back of the pendulum how is that going. to happen though because it doesn't seem. like that's moving in any direction yeah. well remotely similar to that right now. I I think it is though yeah yeah there's. some universities.

um uh University of Chicago uh MIT. there's some universities that are. starting to push back against this. ideology. and get back to the business how are. they doing that. um. uh well well one for example is um. reinstating the uh the standardized uh. testing like SATs and Gres so many. universities throughout the country and. this happened very recently eliminated.

them and um one of the problems with. eliminating then them is that you cut. off one of the primary paths by which. lower. socio-economic kids can advance because. you have like kids who grew up in lower. SES groups in poverty and or sums or. whatever and then but they score high on. these tests that that provides an. elevator for them to get ahead in the. world and you take away that those tests.

you eliminate what is now known to be. one of the primary Roots by which people. can become upwardly mobile from from. those groups and it was it was. eliminated on I think ideological. grounds because it was purported to show. that the tests are by you know and. there's been a kind of anti-testing. movement uh period but but now there are. some uh University I think MIT is is one. that said okay well we eliminated.

actually now we're reinstating it. because we realized that was a mistake. so I think there are at least some signs. that there is um pushback against this. ideology but maybe I'm being you know. two rose-colored glasses and maybe I'm. overly optimistic about it I like to. think that reality kind of has a tether. on people's belief systems in the long. run even if they're distorted by the. ideology in the short run well I I tend. to think that this.

sort of ideology that you're you're. seeing from kids today it's very. infectious and it seems like it's a bit. of a mind virus and it's it's something. that if you don't espouse to these ideas. if you don't agree with these ideas. you're ostracized from the community and. uh in academic circles in in. universities and with a lot of young. people that are trying to establish. themselves as being a person of moral.

High Ground who is doing the right thing. is on the right side of History like. this is a very compelling narrative that. people are going along with and it has. to do with gender identity it has to do. with politics it has to do with their. thoughts on the climate change crisis. there's so many different factors that. are all tied in to this one very. specific and very aggressive ideology. and I don't see any pushback against it. yeah yeah we'll we'll see I mean I um.

you know I of course teach the science. chance in my courses I I teach a large. uh do people complain uh we've gotten. very few complaints we get so I teach a. pretty large classes so I have literally. hundreds of students uh teach one online. class that's um simultaneously broadcast. so students have to have their computer. open and then one in person class has. about 120 or so so but every semester I. teach say five to six hundred students. and there are always a couple complaints.

but before I taught it this last time. because precisely because of the. ideological. um swings that you have mentioned that. we've been talking about I went to the. chair of my department and I said I said. look I've been teaching this course now. co-teaching with a colleague of mine Dr. Cindy meston which is great because we. having a male and female. saying the same things basically is is. very effective we teach a course on. human sexuality and I went to my chair. and I said look there's been this.

ideological shift of sex difference. denial I said but um as a professor I am. obligated to teach the science and I. said I'm not going to deviate from that. and I'm going to be teaching about sex. biological sex which has a very clear. definition having to do with size of the. gamete size of the sex cells or males. are the ones with the small ones with. females ones with the large ones it's. one of the true. binaries in nature if if you will from a.

biological standpoint it's different. from Identity and gender identity and I. said I'm going to be teaching about this. and I'm going to be teaching about sex. differences that exist in the science. supported and I said but I'm not going. to do it unless I know I have your. backing and the backing of the dean you. know and he assured me chair of my. department which I give them credit for. you he assured me that absolutely and. because I said like the odds of me. teaching this stuff which I've been. doing for many years now the odds of me.

teaching this stuff and not getting any. complaints is about zero given I'm. teaching multiple hundreds of people so. he said look if we get you know two. three percent or you know a dozen. complaints or half a dozen whatever he. said he's totally fine with that and. he's supports my adherence to the. science. um you know without the infusion of. ideology so I felt comforted by that but. I wanted to get that assurance and it. may be a reflection of how much the.

ideology has infected universities that. I felt for the first time in my career. compelled to go to him and say look I I. want your backing on this otherwise I'm. not going to teach it you know and um. you can I can teach something else that. is interesting when you consider how. long you've been teaching yeah and then. all of a sudden at this stage of the. game like hey okay right I'm gonna teach. facts is that okay yeah yeah I know it's. crazy and it's crazy because that should. be of course David that's what you do.

you teach fast right and that's what I. thought universities were supposed to be. about not only facts but the free. exchange of ideas you know that that. that there aren't ideas that are you. know can't be discussed openly and. rationally and in the freedom of I. thought that's what universities are all. about have you had notable exchanges. with students were they like confronted. you and did not believe that what you're. saying was true or should be taught yeah.

yeah I I haven't you know yeah I haven't. and. um you know and I'm pretty open with the. students up front like you know if there. are are if you have arguments or. evidence that contradicts what I'm. saying then I want to hear about them. um but so far. um that's not the case but you know I'm. pretty careful in what I teach and I. don't and I'm pretty careful also to. label things as well established or some.

evidence for or this is a speculation so. to mark my my assertions appropriately. um cautiously well it's so unfortunate. there is pushback against it because all. this data and all the science is really. fascinating it's so interesting to see. because you know of course we like to. think of ourselves as something. different than animals you know we like. to think of ourselves as a higher more. evolved being but when you see The. evolutionary influences and the the.

reasons why people of you know who are. male tend to do this and females tend to. do that and the differences in their. mating strategies it's very very. interesting and it resonates like when. you're saying these things like oh okay. that makes sense yeah and in the real. world in a real world application it's. it is very interesting so it's very. unfortunate that there is any pushback. against it yeah but but you know on the.

positive side and maybe this is my. overly optimistic nature I mean I do. feel blessed in a certain way that you. know I get to do this for a living I get. to study these fascinating topics. um for a living and and to teach them. and to. um develop my program of research you. know in this domain and there throughout. history very few societies that could. support people who were able to do this. but I think I think it's so important. because the things that I'm studying are.

so Central because we are a sexually. reproducing species and what that means. is everything we do has to ultimately go. through this uh bottleneck of sex and. reproduction you know not that not that. reproduction is necessarily a goal or a. conscious goal that we have but we are. the end results of a long and unbroken. chain of ancestors each of whom. succeeded in The Mating Game they.

succeeded in selecting a fertile partner. in attracting that fertile partner and. being reciprocally chosen by that. partner in having successful sex with. that partner and since we're a high. parental investment species tip quickly. investing heavily in The Offspring so. that they survive you know and as. descendants of this chain of successful. ancestors we are the beneficiaries we've. inherited the adaptations that led to. their success uh and to be it's a.

fascinating scientific Endeavor to try. to uncover those dimensions of human. nature that are absolutely critical. yeah I couldn't agree more and I'm so. happy that people like you are out there. writing these books yeah. you know to spend that much time. studying it and the fact that it's just. it's. so it's just so interesting it's such a. fascinating aspect of being a human. being and to you know to recognize these. motivations in yourself and in other.

people yeah yeah and it's I mean mating. affects everybody yeah you know even if. you decide I'm going to opt out of the. mating market and be single for the rest. of my life I mean mating affects. everybody. yeah it does now you've written so many. different books on mating. uh the dangerous passion why jealousy is. as necessary as love and sex yes yeah. yeah that one focuses on jealousy and. necessary and infidelity well yeah for. the reason that I um that I mentioned.

before of paternity uncertainty that. unless men. our ancestors were able to solve that. problem or at least solve it to a. reasonable degree we wouldn't have the. mating system we would have which is uh. you know we have a long-term parabond at. high investment mating strategy that. strategy would not exist if that problem. had not been solved and jealousy has. been a key to solving that. yeah it's uh it's interesting because we. only think of that as a character flaw.

that's what we think of when you think. of jealousy yeah without this book um. and that's the wrap that it's gotten but. uh and it I mean of course jealousy has. tremendous negative. um effects it feels psychologically. terrible. um it leads to violence it leads to even. Suicidal Thoughts. um uh it's it's an unpleasant emotion. but uh but it's a necessary so the the. way that I uh liken it and this is maybe.

um an in-apped metaphor but to a smoke. alarm so we have smoke alarms. because even if there's a low. probability of a fire we want to know. about it you know so that we can put it. out we won't lose our house and jealousy. is like that it's like a smoke alarm. that says hey there's I'm getting. signals that they're my partner might be. unfaithful jealousy so this uh the idea. that it's a part of the natural.

sort of process to make sure that you. are your investment is being protected. in the mate that you are not being. deceived that like this is what the. motivation is this is where it all comes. from yeah yeah and and women and as well. as Manhattan now men have to solve the. paternity uncertainty problem but women. have to solve the problem of re mate. retention right that is keeping a guy.

investing in her and her children over. the long term as opposed to him deciding. I'm going to do mate switching and go. off with the thy neighbor's wife right. right right so so it serves a very. important function uh but as as I said. it's it's it's uh leads to spousal abuse. it it's destructive that's what I call. the dangerous passion on the title of. the book. um and psychologically unpleasant but. it's a kind of analogous to pain. physical pain physical pain is extremely.

unpleasant to experience but without it. we would uh expose our bodies to. damaging situations we keep putting our. hand on the hot stove or getting stabbed. by sharp objects Etc and so painful. emotions are not necessarily maladaptive. emotions and and I would put jealousy as. as one of those. that's why it's interesting when you. just think about all the things that.

motivate people and all the various. ticks and and weird aspects of our. psychology that it's really all these. systems that have evolved over time to. ensure reproductive success and ensure a. good collection of resources and that. you can provide and you stay safe and. you know you know we just think of it as. being a person but when you break it. down to the core elements and the the.

motivations for these things and The. evolutionary advantages of these things. it's so interesting to think of us as. almost like a piece of code yeah yeah. well I find it I find it interesting as. well so and and I'm I feel fortunate to. study humans which I think are the most. interesting species. um so we're the only ones who will push. back on the studies yeah yeah that's. right if you study rats or yeah whatever. you're not going to get pushback they.

don't seem to care at all about whatever. the science is yeah that is weird about. us right like we are we not just are. deeply in denial but we're also find. other people who agree with that denial. so that we can like form off these. little Echo Chambers and argue against. the data yeah yeah well and I think part. of that uh we haven't talked about this. Dimension uh but part of it is I think. we're a coalitional species that is we. we.

um want tribes you know and we want our. tribes to predominate or or dominate we. want our tribes to increase in number. and so people that's why people are. always trying to recruit people to their. tribe which is often. um or at least sometimes an. ideologically based based tribe and. that's why I say that we're I mean we're. a coalitional animals. um designed to influence and manipulate. and persuade others more than we are.

dispassionate scientists I mean it's a. weird thing now I think that there there. are some features of our psychology that. are scientific like if you were. oblivious if you failed to keep track of. you know where the berries were were. blooming or where the game was. um available for hunting I mean you. would have been in bad shape you know. there's there is a reality out there. that we had to keep track of. um but with these uh social. manipulations I don't know for some.

reason it can be become untethered for. me from reality yeah that is uh well I. guess it's just we don't want to admit. the reality sometimes for whatever. reason because if it doesn't. doesn't. it doesn't align with whatever belief. system you have whatever view you have. of yourself whatever this I mean just. just in terms of physical equality it. doesn't align like the the reality of.

life is that it's not necessarily that. fair there's some people that have a. much better genetic role of the dice. than you and there's some people that. are born into an extraordinary. circumstance and there's some people. that are very feminine there's some. people that are very masculine and the. idea that this is sort of like even. playing field is just Preposterous yeah. yeah yeah absolutely and I mean I would. say that the you know in the history of. science there has been a denial of the. science in many fields so even like you.

know then as you know the notion that. the Earth was the center of the universe. uh that the Earth was flat you know. there have been these kind of mistaken. uh views that people clung to but as I. said when it comes to humans and our. psychology there's there's somehow that. gets ramped up exponentially yeah it's. ideology and psychology combined and. they go to war right yeah right so so I. published an article actually talking a.

little bit about the. um the influence of coalitional. psychology. um on affecting people's scientific. beliefs because did a study of um of of. psychologists this is with a someone you. also had on a while back though bill on. hippo. um uh Daddy's down in Australia now but. he and I published this article where we. studied it was about 400 social. psychologists as part of the an elite. psychology organization and we asked. them like what if we discovered that.

um men were better at X than women like. say better at spatial rotation ability. or what if we discovered that women were. better than men and people wrote that. they were comfortable much more. comfortable uh when women were Superior. to men yeah and and even gave kind of. contradictory statements and said and. even self-reflective some of them said. like I find it odd that I would I find. the the notion that women are superior. to men say it verbal ability much more.

comfortable than the men are superior to. women at spatial rotation ability and. this seems odd in my own psychology so. they were having themselves trouble. um kind of reconciling but also we asked. some questions like well would it be. good or bad if it turned out that there. were sex differences in domains X Y or Z. and a lot of them said well it would. really be bad it would be horrible for. Humanity if somehow these sex.

differences turned out to exist and so. again that's well clearly that's coming. from something they're being taught it. well in ideology you know we're we're. you know. um and I can see you know if I want to. give people the benefit of the doubt. historically there was discrimination. against women and I know this you know. because I've been friends with many. women in Academia and early on in my. career I had a good friend who she was. at the same career stage as me we were. both assistant professors at Harvard and.

then she went on to another job and I. went on to another job and she said that. um she told me the story about her the. chair of her Department told her look. I'm giving you a lower pay raise than. the a guy who's equally qualified in the. department because he has a family and. they're on a single you know income. whereas you have a husband who also. works and so I'm giving you a lower pay. raise well that's that's discrimination. based on sex she should not be. discriminated against salaries and so.

and so there has been at least some. history of discrimination against women. on grounds like that and beliefs that. women were inferior to Men on in certain. domains. um and so I think part of the motivation. for the sex difference denial is that. history. um and I think getting back to the. pushback notion I think that there are. younger women and I see this. um who are pushing back against this. notion they're saying well yeah this is.

the view this is our mothers and. grandmothers experience this but we're. not experiencing this kind of. discrimination so those battles no. longer need to be fought you know and so. you know I don't know I'm cautiously. optimistic that things will improve on. that front well I think ultimately. things always improve over time with. information and with the evolution of. society in general and I think our. society is clearly at least moving in a. way that's evolving my concern about all.

this stuff is always that while it's. moving in a good direction that grifters. get involved and there's there is this. natural inclination to try to acquire an. exorbitant amount of praise and. attention for your positions on things. and you know you're seeing this because. of social media it's very much. accentuated yeah yeah absolutely yeah. we're we're. um. self-promoters are being rewarded at the.

expense of. um science scientists who are not. necessarily great self-promoters well if. you want good data David's Iran he's got. a bunch of books he got the evolution of. Desire the murderer next door the. dangerous passion and uh when men behave. badly all of it and so all of it. primarily about sexual strategies for.

mating correct yeah yeah so um that's a. mating is uh you can run but you can't. hide from mating it it affects just. about everything that humans do and if I. thank you for mentioning my books Joe if. I were to alert your listeners to one I. would say the first one to start with. would be the evolution of Desire because. that gives a broad overview of human. strategies of human mating David M Buss. it's available is it did you do the. audio version of it yeah I didn't do the.

audio version there is an audio version. out there though why didn't you do it uh. I didn't do it because I don't know I. didn't think my voice is that good and. they gave me the option to but when I. listened to some professional readers I. thought actually they're they're doing a. better job than and I am so I seeded. that to them okay but those books are. available and it's uh it's really fun to. talk to and I really appreciate what. you're doing because I think especially. in this confusing day and age it it's. very important to to hear the actual. science and the actual data Behind these.

things yeah thank you Joe and thank you. it's been an honor to talk to you and to. have such an interesting conversation. you know. um we need more of these in the world I. agree I think we do and uh thank you. really appreciate you all right bye. everybody thank you. [Music]. [Applause]. okay.