Joe Rogan Experience #1958 - Andrew Huberman

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day every now and then pizza is good for. you right what is what is your like when. you what is your schedule as far as like. do you allow yourself bad food every now. and then uh my vice is in the food. department are. croissants thing is I you know that hits. the dopamine button and it's all about.

more I mean I can I can SN five of those. things chocolate croissants are my jam. oh really I don't adulterate my. croissant really no maybe extra butter. for me it's all the Savory stuff Savory. salty so it's croissants every once in a. while or had a chocolate croissant I. have pretty goddamn good you like them. him I'm all butter really but Butter's. nice Butter's nice I think the all. butter for me justifies having you know. three or four when I lived in New York I. used to love buttered Bagels.

or buttered rolls they do not have that. out here for some strange reason it's. like a common thing if you go to like a. like a deli in New York they always had. buttered rolls it was like a just a roll. with a lot of butter on it and people. would eat that with coffee out here they. don't have that for some strange or in. La they don't have it either I like how. in New York when you get a soda even at. a little uh you know little 7-Eleven. type place they offer you a straw like. yeah it's one of the last civilized. things in life to be offered a straw you.

know what I saw the there's a chart see. if you could find this of you know how. we're supposed to be not using plastic. straws anymore because Turtles are dying. you know that you know people give you. plast you know they give you paper. straws I remember the the six-pack. container those plastic things you see. the SE thing around yeah like the turtle. where constricted his shell have you. ever seen that one like it got around a. turtle when he was little and as he grew. the the shell became like an hourglass. it was really gross.

um but there was this chart of the. countries in the world that pollute the. ocean the most and it's [ __ ]. stunning um and if we stop using plastic. straws we're not going to put a [ __ ]. Dent it unless they do like we're not. even close to number one we're not even. close to number six like the the leading. countries that pollute the ocean I think. number one was Philippines I was going. to say Southeast why would southeast. Asia have that.

issue I would imagine that when people. are very poor the last thing they're. concerned about is non polluting I would. think that I've seen those images of. those giant like icebergs of plastic. junk yeah and I always hope that's not. real oh it's real yeah boy on slot is a. gentleman who's been on the podcast. before has developed this device for uh. it's like it sifts the ocean it's like. it floats over the the top of the ocean.

and it has this collector that sucks up. plastic and then they take that plastic. and use it and recycle it and make like. eyeglasses out of it and all sorts of. other different things like okay so. number one is China by a by a wide. margin by a wide margin countries. polluting the oceans the most an annual. metric tons of mismanaged plastic waste. and total amount ending up in global. Waters this is [ __ ] insane so China.

is. 8.80 metric. tons Indonesia's number two with. 3.2 Philippines is number three with 1.9. you go all the way down the United. States is. 0.30 well China's got no excuse because. their GDP is way up there they could. actually manage it but some of these. other countries as you mentioned are are. definitely lower GDP relative to the. United States and China right for sure. like yeah definitely like Malaysia. Nigeria but China's got no excuse that's.

in incredible yeah is some of that them. buying our stuff though don't we sell. our trash we buy it from them bro okay I. mean oh trash buy their trash they they. take it and we're like here you you deal. with it I've heard of that happening I. not to a gigantic extent like that I. don't know about you know right for. Waste Management right yeah like they. might have a company that handles that. perhaps I mean but also they produce so. many plastic things I mean think about. the amount of things that are plastic. that are produced in China it's pretty. extra extraordinary I remember for a.

while there was a discussion about kids. toys with the the coloring you know and. the tox toxins and Plastics. yeah you know it I guess I don't know if. we're going to go there because uh we. might as well right well you know it's. interesting for starting 2019 I started. posting things on Instagram that's how I. got my stuff out then I was going on. podcast now we have the podcast right. but I've stayed off Twitter largely. until this last year when I started. putting a lot of stuff there so you you. put stuff there you start reading stuff. there oh no and and well what's been.

really interesting to me is I followed. this whole Lab leak thing right because. early in the pandemic people in my field. started chattering about that I was very. I love exotic animals not to own them. right but I'm really interested in. animal um conservation and so the. pengolan is an amazing animal they. pinned it on the Pengalin early on right. and there were articles published in. good journals several of which I'm on. the editorial board for so early in the. pandemic there were papers coming out. really fast about you know the quence of.

the virus in Pangolin which were being. sold in the Wuhan Market Etc and I was. pretty disturbed by this mostly because. of the the pictures of the Wuhan Market. the Exotic Animal trade is just it's. it's horrible right yeah okay close. confinement you know these are beautiful. animals that there's no justification. for this stuff but pengolan meat is sold. at I forget what it is per pound but. it's sold it's a delicacy and it's it's. considered very lucrative and uh to get. pengolan meat of all things there's. actually a female pengolan meat uh um.

influencer on YouTube and so oh yeah no. it's like it it's it starts to look like. pengolan meet ASMR it's crazy and. disgusting so they're they're kind of. mixing you know sexy women with exotic. meats from these rare animals it's just. awful so I was going deep down this. Rabbit Hole of trying to understand this. exotic animal trade and then um and then. there was chatter in my field about the. fact that one of the members of the. laboratory in Wuhan that was working. with these you know very high uh.

restriction viruses um had done her. training in the United States which is. true um had had has a master's degree. but was running a laboratory which is. unusual right typically the head of a. laboratory is someone with a PhD MD or. both very rare for a so-called Pi a. principal investigator like like me or. you know another Matt Walker for. instance principal investigator to have. less than a. PhD the fact that she ran a lab or was. important in running this lab as a.

masters with only a masters is unusual. and then there was a lot of chatter in. my field about the the idea that it. might have something to do with the fact. that her significant other was a member. of the Chinese Communist party and so. you know that laboratory had deep ties. to the government and vice versa and. that's true of all Laboratories in China. all Laboratories so the whole notion of. the lab. hypothesis was not foreign to scientists. like me who thought yeah you know my. laboratory works with r viruses adino.

viruses sybis viruses none of these are. are as biohazardous as something like. the Corona virus but you work with these. viruses and you have to use you know lab. coats gloves bleach sterilization you're. careful you know hoods of prop you know. but human error happens so I'm not at. all convinced one way or the other that. it was a deliberate leak but the idea. that it would leak from a laboratory to. a scientists like me who has what's. called a wet lab where you you know with. Solutions and beakers and things of that. sort things happen all the time not in.

my laboratory we're very careful and. everyone's checked up on often but the. idea that human error could cause this. is like it wasn't of course to all. scientists earli well they had been. cited in 2018 for violating safety. protocols I mean all it takes is you. know uh people might not be familiar. with the pipetting is but it's basically. taking a little uh straw that sucks up. you know press a button it sucks up some. fluid you move things you know between. little little tiny vials can be done by. robots too but typically it's done by. humans and that's how they put in a. center if you spin it take off a little.

piece of that or take the pellet out of. the bottom that spun down this kind of. thing all it takes is one loose thumb. and it's on a lab coat all it takes is. that lab coat going on a rack all it. takes is somebody leaving work putting. their lab coat on there and touching. that lab coat and it's out in the world. like it's not that complicated right um. so it doesn't have to be that somebody. had a plan to let this out it could be I. don't have any knowledge of that but the. idea that it would come from a lab to me. is far more plausible than the idea that. it came from some pengolan sequ in the. Wuhan market so I think we were we were.

going down the wrong path on this for a. long time and I thought this is kind of. bananas and now everyone's so shocked. it's like I think to people who work in. biomedical research like of course this. sort of thing Could Happen of course. because human error is the cause of most. of these kinds of things well it was. very clear that there was a concerted. effort to dismiss the idea that it came. from a lab and it wasn't logical and it. wasn't scientific and they ignored the. the all the evidence that seemed to. point that originated from that lab.

including the people that worked in that. lab who got sick and now there's some. new stupid story in the New York Times. about a raccoon dog they're saying it. might have come from a raccoon dog the. the civit is that the the no so it's. some sort of a raccoon dog civit is. actually a cat it's a like a feret type. thing right a civit is like in the cat. family I believe and it's uh that's. where you get uh copy Lu coffee from Oh. Yeah from the poop of theic have you. ever had it it's the luach coffee yeah.

yeah it's actually very good yeah when I. was a postto there was there was this is. it that's the raccoon dog yeah that one. doesn't eat coffee beans I I don't think. so maybe it does it's a member of the. canid family it's also it's a beautiful. let that back to where you were um a. group that also includes domestic dogs. and the only member that hibernates oh. wow they they hibernate interesting but. here's the problem um Sager and Jetty. was actually explaining this to me on. Saturday night he was like there are.

there's direct evidence of people being. infected that. predates this establishment of this uh. animal testing positive in that wet. market so I guess people are eating that. animal is that the idea but many months. before that people were sick from this. like this is what was this in I believe. it was in December of 2019 is that what. they're. saying November or December 2019 and it.

was March 2020 when when everything kind. of blasted right yeah but it was. September and or August of 2019 when the. first people were infected so this it. predates it by a considerable amount. yeah I think the labl leak hypothesis is. is far more plausible well the firing. cleavage site this this thing that they'. they've established that it seems to. indicate that this virus was manipulated. like this is fur the fur in cleavage s. excuse me yeah there too you know we. hear about gain of function research and. now everyone Associates gain of function.

with gain of function of this particular. virus but gain of function research. happens all the time in essentially. every laboratory in the US and abroad. that does Mouse genetics you knock out a. gene and you ask what happens to this. animal in the absence of a gene and then. you knock it in and you see if it. replaces that because in humans human. genetics is only loss of function you. don't have the option yet crisper will. allow this to put things back in that. are missing and so gain of function. research is extremely common I mean we.

do it in we're no longer working on. animals to be clear we only do human. studies now but you're this is something. that you're trained to do as a postto. everyone learns loss of function gain of. function you need to do both you know. the the gain of function actually there. is that one crisper experiment speaking. of interesting science out of China a. guy he actually was a post stock at. Stanford um worked for a guy named Steve. quake and then separately on his own. without permission or anything from. Stanford went off and started his own. laboratory in China and stood up at a. meeting a few years ago and said he had. done crisper in human babies this has.

been done yeah he he was arrested for. this right yeah he he mutated the HIV. receptor which everyone thinks okay that. was designed to prevent these babies. from getting HIV it turns out that that. mutation is thought to perhaps enhance. memory by sort of parallel mechanisms. and then it was very unclear for a short. while whether or not this guy was either. going to get a Nobel Prize or then I. thought they were going to throw him in. jail and so everyone is very tense in. Waiting in my community thinking okay. because when somebody's kind of up for a.

big Discovery like this everyone kind of. circles maybe wanting that maybe they. should be involved in getting the. accolades but as the moment that the. International Community I think. rightfully so said this is horrible you. can't do this there's no Ethics. Committee you need to think about what. you're doing everyone was like I had. nothing to do with this guy never had. anything and you know there was a deep. excavation of emails and all sorts. everyone's like I got nothing to do with. this guy so it was pretty interesting. then China said oh we're going to we're. going to punish him but I'd be willing. to bet both hands.

that he's his punishment consists of a. jail cell that is pretty luxurious with. a laboratory there's no question that. crisper is going on there crisper is. going on in certain regions of you know. of you know uh other other locations on. the globe where things aren't as. regulated because think about the. potential payoff for being able to. rescue a Huntington's mutation right a. Huntington's Korea mutation has somebody. at some point in their life you. know unable to control their arms Hy lus. of the arms if is it uh hunting disease.

it's a deterioration of the parts of the. brain that control motor function the. parts of the brain that control motor. function have two main Pathways one is a. go pathway like reach for this coffee. mug and the other one is a no-go pathway. resisting movement and the no-go pathway. degenerates substantially other things. too and people with Huntington's Korea. end up with these writhing ballistic. movements and it's an inherited disease. so you know what Gene it's the hunting. tin Gene and if you can if you know that. you're for instance parent has it you. can get tested for it a lot of people.

don't want to get tested they don't want. the answer because it's late onset so. you can be normal a certain portion of. your life and then get it it's a tragic. disease but if you test positive for. this Gene you know you're going to get. Huntington in which case with crisper. you could just put the gene back in and. rescue function what causes someone to. eventually succumb to that disease if. it's a late onset disease if they don't. have it when they're young and they. develop when they get older what changes. yeah so it's not just deterioration of. those particular neurons it's it's.

deterioration of the neurons that. control those neurons you everything's. working in a kind of a top- Down. suppression all the time in fact um the. head neurosurgeon at neurolink who. somebody I know quite well named Matthew. McDougall he came up through my. laboratory and Elon made a great choice. in hiring him um told me recently the. best way to think about the frontal. cortex is that basically its main job. besides picking context and strategy for. a given situation is to tell certain. parts of your brain that really want to. do. things that's the best description I. have ever heard of prefrontal Cortex you.

know it's what's keeping Jamie from. doing things that he shouldn't right now. and me doing things that I shouldn't. right now and every time you have a. crazy idea like maybe I should jump off. this bridge why would I think that I'm. not that's a healthy operation of your. brain saying I want to because I'm kind. of curious but I don't want to so I'm. not going to right with Huntington what. happens is there's a slow deterioration. of those neurons but there's a lot of. deterioration of these neurons that. control motor function and eventually. what happens is the deeper neurons that. control motor function start shutting. down the autonomic functions like.

breathing heart rate and So eventually. people just succumb to some basic um you. know uh we call them housekeeping. functions you know so they'll they'll. have to be on a respirator and they they. have to um you know they have to use a. catheter tube and you know they have to. defecate into a bag and you know at some. point they just become a a deteriorated. um mess of neurons so what's first to go. there however is the the control of. motor function and it goes first in the.

direction of too much activity because. of all these brakes and accelerators. that we have in in the brain um so in. any case crisper Gene manipulation of. the sort that this guy did in this. laboratory in China again I think an. Ethics Committee needs to tell the world. or decide for the world what people. should be allowed to do and not do but. you can imagine for something like. Huntington it would be tremendously. advantageous like if you had a child who. you knew was someday going to get. Huntington you'd want to do a crisper. mutation and put the healthy Gene back. is there any that's been shown to slow.

down the progress of. hunting uh there I'm not so verse it's a. little bit like Ms another. neurodegenerative disease multiple. sclerosis where certain things. exacerbate it like inflammation of any. kind um and and those things can be. almost random in in some ways like some. people who have MS will e a salad. dressing with mustard in it have a huge. inflammatory response and have a flare. up blurry vision and get worse and then. it returns to mustard things like.

mustard because must mustard. inflammatory well mustard mustard isn't. necessarily whole body inflammatory but. it if it's spicy mustard it binds to. What's called the substance P receptor. or the capsacin receptor we have. receptors for anything that's kind of. hot and spicy um and those are the same. receptors that respond to hot liquid. heat and and spicy obviously very very. closely linked and pain all three of. those very close whereas pain relief. very closely related to Menthol and cool. not just the taste but the actual. physical sensation of cool so heat pain.

and inflammation kind of our cousins in. this in this sense and cool Menthol and. lack of inflammation are also cousins in. terms of receptors neural circuits this. kind of thing so can spicy food cause. inflammation sure yeah really yeah but I. think one of the best ways to think. about inflammation and and here I you. know I definit hat tip to Lane Norton. who we both know and Andy Galpin who. really both really impressed upon me the. fact that if we were to measure.

somebody's blood pressure inflammatory. markers heart rate and cortisol during a. hard workout and you didn't know they. were doing a hard workout I just handed. you the data and you're a medical doctor. you'd say this person's dying right. right so inflammation is robust during. during a hard exercise but I think. what's so incredible about the human. body is that the increase in blood. pressure inflammation Etc is what. triggers the adaptation so that blood. pressure and inflammation Etc are all. much lower the other 23 hours of the day.

and so there's something special about. our system whereby yeah maybe if you had. really hot peppers like the most famous. of these is the um Carolina Reaper you. know about this the Carolina Reaper I. have some in my hot sauce yeah someone. Senor luga made me this Trio of hot. sauces and there's Reapers in there is. is that a person or a brand Senor luga. it's a brand okay yeah aw there's three. hot sauces that we developed um one one. of them is uh my friends over at half.

face blades they developed this one that. I really like so he added that to my. little three collection and it's. like I think it's. Reapers uh sundried tomatoes and some. other stuff and um oh and uh truffles. it's really good amazing yeah and then. he's got two other ones one of them with. habanero and but there there it is those. are the three what. happened yeah so uh if you like hot [ __ ].

I Like It Hot this stuff is like legit. so one of them is heirloom tomatoes. winter Truffles and Reapers that's the. half face blades uh cooperative and then. the other one is I don't even know how. to say that word chaal how do you say. that I'm not CH chaal I'm not I'm I'm in. Texas I'll embarrass myself even more. get your car off that please kma saltt. and ghost pepper that's the that one's. rough it's really delicious though and. the other one's haban. Ura chili and paprika and uh I love them.

all but I I like really hot like if you. can't if you're like boy this Tabasco is. rough stay the [ __ ] away from that stuff. cuz the stuff I like is pretty rough. well the Carolina Reaper in small. amounts I'm sure you can spice it just. right they're they're these Pepper. eating contests that people oh I've seen. them we've played them on the podcast so. a few years back somebody ate a Carolina. Reaper and ended up with what's called. Thunderclap headache Thunderclap.

headache is a massive inflammation of. the meninges of the brain so you got. your brain it's sitting in fluid. everyone knows that and then there's. some thick Dura stuff around it there's. thick thick fibrous tissue like well. you're a hunter so when you get want to. take the brain out people think oh you. just kind of Pop Pop the brain out you. have to you need a sharp razor really. sharp scissors to get through a sharp. knife the swelling of the meninges is. what happened to this person they got a. unbelievable headache and it's actually. inflammation induced brain damage now. that's only eating a an extremely hot.

pepper in in huge quantities how many. peppers did this guy eat I don't know I. think uh just eating one of those things. like you know in the pepper sauce my. stuff it's like the tiniest amount it'll. wreck you yeah Thunderclap headache we. know a couple other things about spice. and here I I just I always I want to. make sure I I give proper attribution. the Nobel Prize was given a couple years. ago to a a guy down at the scripts. Institute in San Diego ardm puchin and. David um excuse me uh oh gosh David.

Julius at UCSF for the discovery of. these receptors for pressure cool heat. and it's an amazing set of discoveries. that just occurred really in the last 10. years we know that all of those Pathways. go to areas of the brain that are. involved in of course like Behavior like. if you touch something really hot or you. taste something really hot for most. people they're going to resist that but. also to the hypothalamus which houses. all these hormone control areas Etc. people who can tolerate stronger spice. men and women we know it's correlated.

with higher levels of circulating. testosterone that I think is interesting. what we're really talking about is. higher pain threshold and we you and I. have talked before about if there's one. clear effect of testosterone it's that. it makes effort feel good that that pain. starts to have a little bit of a come. hither kind of thing to it it feels a. little bit enticing when testosterone. levels are elevated when testosterone. levels are lower or if people have lower. levels of testosterone effort feels more. overwhelming. how's that um and the other thing is.

that ingestion of of spicy peppers. resets your calibration for what spicy I. think we know that too and in a way that. also adjusts people's pain threshold so. if people get bet better eating hot. peppers they're better at dealing with. all types of pain and I find this. fascinating because I know you and I are. both kind of obsessed with ice baths and. cold cold punches and I've been going. deep into that literature around cold. and what's really known about cold. thermogenesis and not known and it seems. like the these acute adrenaline acute.

pain Pathways they do exactly what. exercise does which is in the moment if. you were to measure somebody's. inflammation Etc you'd say this person. is dying they're in a terrible State. they might as well be getting you know. open heart surgery with no anesthesia. the way some people react to the ice. bath it's kind of silly that to us but. for people that don't like the cold. they're like you got to be kidding me. I'd never go near it they try and. disparage it they try and poke every. hole in the data they're just scared. right they're just scared we know this. but they are actually the people that. benefit the most because that really.

acute adrenaline Spike that pain that. you feel creates a higher pain threshold. later higher threshold for work output. all the things that most people seek and. so to me it's always interesting that. you have to look what's happening during. and you have to look at what's happening. afterward and for some reason as humans. we like these Creature Comforts of. massages which are great um you know the. sauna which is great although if you. crank it up really hot it's work at some. level it's always work at the end.

there's that moment the last five. minutes of a 25 minute session at 190°. those are that's work yeah and there's. something about the the burning in the. nose for me at least my heart rate. starts like I want to get the hell out. burning in the nose so are you using. water on the Rocks a lot yeah so that's. what's giving you the burning in the. nose yeah I you know it's always hard to. know how hot it is right at the least. where it reaches your body I've been. crank it way way up like what. temperature like 260 what 260 but I. cover zero but I cover my head why what.

are you a brisket the [ __ ] are you doing. well so that well what I found is why. are you doing that so what's interesting. is your desire to get out of the of the. hot tub or the the too hot hot tub is. because of burning on the skin right but. your desire to get out of the sauna is. usually a brain thing you'll notice this. because if you go to a Russian B they. all wear the little wool hats that's to. insulate their brain against the Heat so. they can stay in at hotter temperatures. on their body so I'm in at 260 but I've. got my head covered with a Wool Cap. so it doesn't feel as stressful but I'm.

doing it because I like to I like to. sweat if it doesn't feel as stressful. wouldn't have less of a positive effect. okay so um this is great because what. you're starting to do is tease out the. variables so this is where I think it. gets interesting you can get better at. sweating I know Fighters do this in. preparation you know dropping weight you. can get better by doing more sauna you. get to be a better sweater which means. that you can drop you can cool more. easily even in clothes or if you're out. running or hunting or doing anything so. there's some advantage to being a better. at sweating and sweating itself is a.

whole interesting story you actually. have nerves that control the sweat. glands that's actually controlled by by. little nerve endings and those Pathways. can grow very very quickly in the. presence of heat so what I've been. trying to do is learn how to dump heat. better and if I don't use the you know. the Hat what happened was I was getting. up to 220 and I'd sitting there for like. 45 minutes I'm thinking this is not. doing anything for me anymore I want to. increase my sweating have you brought in. an independent. thermometer um you're not trusting the. 260 meur no uh so what I did is I had.

the no I haven't so who makes your sauna. um this is dund but so what I had the. guy do who had installed it for me um is. put the thermometer down low because. it's a trigger right it's it's going to. shut it off when it hits a certain. temperature so what I'm really trying to. do is get get it really really hot down. near the floor because then I you know. when I stand up when it's that hot I'm. just ready to pass out no chance but you. know I think lired I don't want to um. get this wrong on the numbers but you.

know I know lared brings his airdine. bike in there with oven mitts on so he's. got he's got to be putting himself at at. at least 260 right I mean himself I. don't think he has sauna set at 260 I. think his sauna set in the 200s though I. think it's like 25 or 220 but pedaling. on the aird that's no he's a psycho yeah. that's psycho but he's a different kind. of human being yeah but I'm contrasting. this with cold yeah and so well that's a. difference are you going cold and then. 260 I'm a wimp I I start in the cold for.

a minute then I go into the sauna then. back into the cold for two minutes back. into the sauna then three minutes you're. not a wimp why are you saying that well. listen if I were tougher I'd go five. minutes in the cold straight off yeah. but I just had Susanna soberg out to uh. for a podcast um and she taught me some. really interesting things first of all. this has really helped I did this we. should explain that she's the woman who. created the soberg principal yeah. Susanna soberg did her PhD um in Denmark. is I I think one of the best scientist. in terms of deliberate cold exposure and.

its benefits because she she actually. did something that's remarkable not just. in that field but overall which is that. she employed real world type ex. experiences and exercise of deliberate. cold and sauna and turned it into a very. rigorous study of brown fat. thermogenesis which is this sort think. of it sort of your like the oil in the. candle of your body increases. mitochondrial function and thermogenesis. heats you up metabolism uh subjective.

well-being sleep Etc she did all of that. and publish this in cell reports of. medicine and I realize it's just one. study but to do that studies on humans. is hard to do it with multiple variables. is even harder and to do it in a real. world context is even harder so what she. showed was that if people get 11 minutes. of deliberate cold exposure per week. total this is divided up into sessions. of 1 to 3 minutes or 4 minutes even so. it's not 11 minutes all at once they.

fundamentally change the amount of brown. fat that they have which means they. fundamentally change the number of. mitochondria in the brown fat which. means they fundamentally change their. thermogenic properties of their body. increase their metabolism now the the. people who don't like cold say well the. increase in metabolism wasn't enough to. offset more than a few bites of a bagel. or something but that's not the point. really what she also showed was that. this increase in thermogenesis allow. people to be more comfortable in cold. environments even when they're not in. the cold and then people say well who. cares right I'll throw on a jacket ah.

but what she was able to show is that. the ability to be comfortable in the. cold correlates with a bunch of other. important immune functions and metabolic. functions and insulin sensitivity which. is a good thing and the inability to do. that is likely to not be healthy for us. she also showed that 57 minutes per week. is the threshold for sauna so if people. get 57 minutes per week of uncomfortably. warm but safe sauna exposure they can. get very similar SAR effects and and.

then that gave rise to this question I. always said do you end with cold or do. you end with heat and she said end with. cold because then your body's forc to. warm itself back up and that's what's. now called the soberg principle which is. when you end with cold your body has to. use its natural Machinery to heat back. up in talking to her recently I learned. some really interesting things that I've. been incorporating first of all I've. always avoided putting my head under. until the very end in the cold turns out. that if you put your face in the water. right as you in you activate the. mamalian dive reflex and this reflex.

increases the So-Cal parasympathetic. activity of the autonomic nervous system. which is just nerd speak for it lowers. your heart rate it makes you calmer and. it makes you better able to tolerate. stress so try this next time go you. could even just put your face in before. I go right under you go right under so. that's the right way to my nose I go. right under so I didn't know this a lot. of people that do deliberate cold get. headaches they don't feel good and a lot. of times it's because they slowly. immerse themselves up to the neck and. then right at that interface of cold and. hot it it creates change Vaso.

constriction right below a little bit. Vaso dilation above they get headaches. they don't feel good they heart rate is. way too high putting your face under. that anxiety though I I just feel like. that's all psychological I really do. because there's there's a moment when. you get in the cold where there's a part. of your brain that goes let's get out of. here you can get out of this if you will. just get out right now and you got to go. shut the [ __ ] up but if you don't say. shut the [ __ ] up then that thing runs. rampant through your brain and that. kicks your heart rate up and that kicks.

your anxiety up I really think it's. psychological well it's psychological. and it's physiological so here. physiological because of psychological. absolutely uh absolutely so here's what. we know for sure for the first 20 to 30. seconds of cold shock when you get in. which is how it's described that. prefrontal cortex that normally has the. job of handling context and says sh to. the reflexes of the brain and the. impulses of the brain is not active for. 20 to 30 seconds so your reflex to get.

the hell out of there is very there's a. clear and logical reason for that after. that 20 or 30 seconds the forbrain. starts coming online again that's your. opportunity to start negotiating with. yourself of oh this is actually good for. me this this is I can handle this I got. through that so I can get through the. next one what I've been doing recently. is trying to not go for time but going. for the only way I can describe this. would be walls like sometimes just. getting in the thing is a wall for me so. I okay I got over one wall just getting.

in the damn thing then like oh God here. it comes forbrain shutting down I'm like. panicking I'm going to get through this. and then I'm watching for when I have. the impulse to get out and what I start. to notice is that the the gaps between. those walls start getting longer and. longer the more you do it the more you. do it you have one at your house I do. yeah and then pretty soon what's. happened is how cold is it uh it's hard. I I suppose it's probably in the low 50s. what low 50s or why is it so warm. I don't know low 50s High 40s why do you.

do that stay in there longer I don't. know well we have two I I confess we. have the morasco one which is that one's. really cold and that one is you avoid. that one sometimes I like to go in the. sauna first I don't like what I'm. hearing well here's the thing I've been. doing longer exposure in the warmer one. that's so much easier though it is we. had one here that was kind of broken and. it was at. 54° I climbed in I'm like this is a. [ __ ] joke what 50 is okay though all. right I I listen what. 34 34 yeah you and Cam.

haes I Like It where the ice breaks off. the bottom of the thing and floats to. the top yeah you realize I just. uninvited myself on the the cam haes. hunting trip because he was like you. should come hunting I've never gone but. I think I he'll probably just say I'm. auss until I get down to the 30s on. these cold plunges I did a workout with. him I went up there I was sore for two. weeks those High rep weight workouts he. they're insane yeah he does a lot of. that stuff yeah like I'm a slow lazy. bear in the gym like I like to lift. heavy where go you know this kind of. thing well he does a lot of endurance. work you know he does a lot of his stuff.

is about muscular endurance and pain. threshold and you know what you can. tolerate it's all repetitions because. repetitions like if you just do three to. five reps it's pretty easy as you said. testosterone rewards that kind of effort. there's a big difference between that. kind of stuff and like you know he's an. ultramarathon Runner he likes to push. the mind yeah well I'll do the long runs. I do a long run on Sunday I did two. hours yesterday around they call it a. lake but it looks like more like a river. to it is a river it's a it's a branch of. the Colorado River so I kept going.

around that thing until I couldn't go. around anymore but um yeah I need to go. colder I I will get in the ice one what. is this will need to go why don't you. just do it well I there are mornings. I'll just jump in the cold one for 30. seconds I do it every [ __ ] day I. don't have any negotiation there's no. negotiation no I'm not saying I don't go. in every day I'm saying I don't always. go into that one first I go first thing. in the morning okay well you're you're a. better man no it's not a better man just. do it it's just if you have like all. these room this negotiation room and all.

this leeway then you won't do it if you. just BR I brush my teeth every day do. you twice a day yeah well get in the. [ __ ] cold just do it all right I'll. start going do it it's three minutes you. know some in the beginning when I first. got it I would like procrastinate I get. a cup of coffee and then I looked down. my phone it was 12 minutes later I was. like I already be done okay I would have. been done 8 minutes ago well I'm going. to get thermometers a second thermometer. for the sauna verify you know I'm going. to verify the data second independent. measurement and the and the cold I may.

have to imagine that the morasco one. because it has pieces of ice floating in. it has got to be colder than 50 yeah I. bet it is you could tell if you know the. Morosco has two lids you have the lid. where you climb in and there's another. lid where the equipment is if you lift. up that equipment lid you'll see a. thermometer you'll see a digital. thermometer that's a setting it's like. what it's set at and what it's actually. at okay and I I guarantee you're. probably in the 30s okay um so I've been. doing shorter exposures there and then. longer exposures in the 5501 what's the.

longer in the 501 I'm in there a while. that's how long so that one when I go in. there I'm staying you know 10 20 minutes. and here's the reason the study that was. published in the European Journal of. physiology that showed these huge. increases in dopamine that was the first. of these sorts of studies I don't know. if I've mentioned this but when you go. in the cold for a very brief period of. time one to three minutes and it's. shockingly cold you have to catch your. breath stabilize your mind that evokes a. dopamine epinephrine and norepinephrine. release these three things together are. called the catacol amines those normally.

would increase from you know a um a cup. of coffee and a and a heart Sprint for. you know 10 to 30 minutes maybe an hour. when you do the cold exposure the way. you're doing it or longer exposures at. about 50 degrees or so you're seeing. increases in dopamine norepinephrine and. epinephrine that are two to 3x above. Baseline this is huge wow this is huge. this is on the order of many draw drugs. but the difference is most drugs Spike.

dopamine and then drop it below. Baseline the increases in this case are. lasting many hours two to four to even. six hours that's amazing there are very. you know whenever people criticize. deliberate cold exposure they go it's. not leading to that much fat loss. granted but it's to my knowledge there. is no drug nor is there any form of. exercise conventional forms of exercise. that increase the catacol amines to that. level for that long and with dopamine. it's it's all about the the amplitude.

and the duration how fast it rises how. fast it stays up there there's nothing. quite like it and you know I did three. plunges here I'm staying at a place that. actually has a plunge I don't know the. temperature but it felt cold to me so I. did 3 minutes 3 minutes 3 minutes and I. had a hot tub so I bounced back and. forth for a minute in between and you as. you know you feel better much of the day. if not the entire day that is not a. coincidence your system is circulating. much higher levels of the catacol amines. and this is shown in that paper it's now. been shown in a series of other papers. my colleague Craig heler at Stanford has. known this for a long time and this is.

why and for other reasons the athletes. at Stanford who use cold do it before. their workouts yeah everyone now knows. that it blocks hypertrophy if you do it. after but if you wait a few hours you're. okay four to six hours you're probably. yeah I I like to do it first thing in. the morning just because I don't want to. do it first thing in the morning and. that's why I like when people complain. about cold plunges that's not worth it. it doesn't do anything like [ __ ] you it. doesn't you're just you just don't like. the fact that other people can do it.

every day and you don't like the fact. that you can't do it every day no other. people not you you do but there's. there's people out there that will. complain about something and find an. excuse why it's not beneficial right and. the reason for that excuse is not that. there's not data the reason for that. excuse is coming up with some sort of an. excuse for themselves that's what that. is absolutely I mean I think that it you. know I I think of health and performance. so mental physical health and. performance along you know fundamentals.

you talk about these all the time I. think the five pillars if you will. are sunlight if I may getting light in. your eyes yeah avoiding too frequent. bright light exposure in your eyes at. night unless you're doing something you. really enjoy okay so you're doing comedy. you're out past 10 p.m. right you're not. going to wear sunglasses or something. necessarily that would be ridiculous it'. be ridiculous right he was like yeah. people would go what the [ __ ] is this. weirdo doing with sunglasses it's past. 10 p.m. I have to have my blue blockers.

on I've Got Friends that wear the red. lights at night and Dim All the Lights. you know that whole thing that's a. little extreme I that's a little extreme. those people are always weird yeah but. sunlight so sunlight during the day. morning and day and trying to limit. bright light exposure at night as much. as is normally possible then I would say. movement so you got to move. cardiovascular resistance training. that's one of the beautiful things I. think that's happened in the last couple. of decades is that it's you know. resistance training is no longer just. considered the thing that football. players bodybuilders do everyone old. young female male women no longer I hope.

are concerned about getting quote. unquote too big from weightlifting or. something or turning into a body I think. that's kind of gone away I like to think. that's gone away most women realize that. the only reason why women do get too big. is they take exogenous hormones they're. they're taking steroids yeah you throw a. bunch of anavar in there you get the. square jaw. and avoid but women who don't do that. and who lift weights regularly look way. better they look way better and our. friend Peter IA I mean his um has talked.

about one of the major causes of death. later is you know Falls due to stepping. down off things inability to hang from a. bar is you know correlated with lack of. Health right in men and women so being. able to have some strength so exercise. then nutrients right macronutrients. proteins fats and carbohydrates people. now think about so you need all that. stuff vitamins minerals and the other. stuff and then I think in addition to. that sleep right I think Matt Walker. deserves a tremendous debt of gratitude. from everybody because 10 years ago.

everyone's like I'll sleep when I'm dead. now we know you're probably not going to. dissolve into a puddle of your own tears. from a couple of bad night sleep every. once in a while but sleep makes you. mentally physically better you perform. better and then the last one is this. whole um not notion it's social. connection right you can't stay isolated. constantly or people lose their minds. yeah so when you look at people that get. very depressed or they're suicidal one. or several of those five things is going. to be diminished and then what happens. is people hear about deliberate cold.

exposure and if they don't like it or. they want to poke at it they say oh it. rocks hypertrophy okay well only if you. do it in the four to six hours after a. hypertrophy workout I thought it was two. um well they've looked immediately after. you know again immediately after is bad. if you work out it's bad but you can do. it after cardio right yeah like it like. the only time I do it right after. workouts is after I do a generally I do. a really hard cardio workout and then. then I'll do the sauna for 25 minutes. and then I'll do the coal plunge I'll.

end with the coal plunge yeah yeah I. think that the that's okay right right I. mean it blocks it lowers inflammation. which is the re which is what you want. from the resistance training right again. it goes back to this you know it wasn't. just these guys but I again I point to. Lane and to Andy Galpin who've been. shouting from the rooftops for years. blood pressure up inflammation up is a. good thing so you have to be careful. when someone says oh you you eat the. hormetic effect you eat this you become. inflamed well how long and what's the. hormetic effect and so in terms of you.

know deliberate cold exposure people. like to say oh it doesn't burn much fat. it blocks hypertrophy but if you look at. the mental benefits of having your. catacol amines dopamine or epinephrine. and epinephrine systemically elevated to. 2 to 3x for 4 to 6 hours after a. 30second to 3 minute protocol you're not. going to show me a drug or a form of. exercise that can do that for me the. best thing for sleep is sauna like sauna.

pre-sleep is amazing do you know why. that is why is that ah it's really. interesting when you heat the surface of. your body you would think oh you know my. whole body temperature is getting really. hot but if I were to measure your core. body temperature what happens is your. your medial preoptic nucleus of the. hypothalamus says oh the surface of my. body is really hot I'm going to cool. down my core temperature and falling. asleep at night involve requires a 1 to. 3° drop in bodily temperature and when. you wake up in the morning you have a 1. to 3 degree increase in bodily.

temperature in the morning that triggers. a cortisol Spike that triggers. norepinephrine and then you start waking. up so body temperature and the ability. to fall asleep and stay asleep and wake. up are very tightly correlated your. whole circadian rhythm is temperature. driven and so for instance you probably. have a best time of day for you to work. out where you feel best you probably mid. if I were to have you train at you know. 2 a.m. when you went to bed at you know. a couple hours before you'd feel. miserable you're not going to perform as. well grip strength in the middle of the. night I wake you up I take your grip.

strength measurement it's going to be. strong but not as strong as it would be. at your peak time during the day if we. looked at your body temperature we'd. find that your your grip strength is. weakest when your body temperature is. lowest so it you'd say well I'm asleep. that's why ah but we there's an easy. experiment this has been done we just. keep you awake for 24 hours we measure. your body temperature it has a very. regular circadian rhythm that persists. and we measure grip strength that's been. done numerous times people living in. caves they've done those experiments. have they done experiments people do the. sauna and then work. out um cuz grip strength and it's tied.

to body temperature if you can raise. your core body temperature from the. sauna uh sauna is dropping your core. body temperature the inside of it yeah. but but even while you're at Peak sauna. you're sweating like a pig so at some. point you won't be able to Thermo. regulate anymore and then your body. temperature will go up and you can. become hypothermic so when you are in. the sauna and it's 210° and you're. sweating like a pig your body body. temperature is lower your core body. temperature is fighting to get lower and.

when you get out your core body. temperature continues to go down that's. right and the exact opposite happens. when you get in the cold plunge you feel. cold on the surface so your body goes oh. [ __ ] hypothalamus again medial preoptic. area gets a signal from it's a I mean if. you think about how beautiful this. mechanism is I still like get goosebumps. no pun intended when I think about it. you have receptors on your skin surface. that sends cold send that to your. hypothalamus which says ha it's cold out. there I'm going to generate heat how do. I generate heat well there are two. things you can do I can make you shiver.

which will generate heat or I can make. you move another shivering is just. another form of moving or I can activate. this very specialized fat tissue which. is not under the skin it's not. subcutaneous fat but it's around your. critical organs which is the brown fat. activate the mitochondria there and. basically at the very core level get. electrons moving and you start and the. brown fat in term activates the. thermogenic system and starts heating. you up wow it's so crazy and then what's.

beautiful is that the brown fat has a. sort of memory of that experience so. even after you get out you're walking. around right now I did cold plunge this. morning you did cold plunge this morning. right yeah okay so your body temperature. is about 1 to 3 degrees hotter probably. about one or two degrees hotter than it. normally would be dopamine's getting. cranked out and so all day long you're. you're warmer at let's say cool ambient. temperature in fact in Scandinavia I. learned this in researching the the. soberg work I went and and went deep. into the this cold thermogenesis world.

over there that they've been researching. this really carefully and they have a. saying in Norway I obviously don't know. it in Norwegian but it translates to. essentially in the spring as it's. getting warmer in Texas what you want to. do is to put they say put on more layers. why so that you can prepare yourself for. being able to cool yourself off easily. in the summer when it's really hot. you'll be more comfortable In The Heat. Of Summer in Texas if you bundle up a. bit more in the spr spring really yeah. well you're adapting and then they say.

the opposite to sounds annoying why but. then they say in the fall what you're. supposed to do is not walk around with a. sweater you wear a T-shirt and then. guess what in the winter you're. thermogenically how about just [ __ ]. wear clothes for the weather this is. ridiculous like I get the whole idea of. sauna and cold plunge and adapting your. body but now we're just you know I think. too much of this is mental masturbation. some people let me be clear it's it's. the principle it's the principle science. yeah I'm not saying wear a sweatshirt in. the spring wear what's comfortable Jesus.

Christ what I'm saying is that when we. what's Jamie's laughing he's from Ohio. they're just like this is ridiculous the. uh it's cold enough out there you don't. need to PL I'm from Boston well right I. I think the principle is what's. interesting right is that if you teach. your body to tolerate warm then you will. be more comfortable in very hot it's. sort of obvious yeah and vice versa for. cold well I certainly think that there's. a great benefit to being able to talk. tolerate temperatures whether it's cold. temperature or warm temperature because.

I think there's a mental resiliency. aspect to it yeah what's interesting to. me is when I get out of the cold um my. entire body my skin is bright red you. know where your body is trying to heat. itself up because you're in there for. three minutes or I'm in there for three. minutes but when I get out of the sauna. generally I stretch and um my house is. warm right and at night time I I do the. sauna in the house and when I'm. stretching within a minute or two. minutes after the sa I'm [ __ ]. freezing because my body's trying to.

cool off so quickly you know because. it's gone through the whole 25 minutes. session well the contrast of heat and. cold is we know very good for our. cardiovascular system because we think. of the blood vessels and capillaries and. arteries is just tubes but they're. really cells end aelio cells they're. laid out like Silly Putty linking them. all like tubes and they are very. contractile they need to do that because. of the pulsing of blood through them. that's the whole basis of systolic and. diastolic blood pressure it's the top. measurement it's a pressure when it's. not blood pumping through and its. pressure when it's relaxed okay so um.

the this system is can become very. Dynamic doesn't be you don't want it. rigid especially given you know what AA. tells us and I believe them is that the. number one killer in the world is. cardiovascular disease or. cerebrovascular disease you want the. little micro capillaries of your body to. be very flexible not rigid so when you. go heat cold you're basically going Vasa. constriction dilation is a constriction. D I'm I'm not talking about heat cold. I'm just talking about heat and. stretching just getting out of it my. body cools itself off and I get really. cold within like five minutes so that.

could be the drop which is when your um. your blood goes to the center of your. body to preserve your core organs and. then the surface of your body is cold. and then as you start to heat up again. and your there's Vaso dilation and it. goes out to the surface your B your. surface is cold and it actually cools. the blood at the surface and that's. what's called the drop and that's when. your body temperature goes down now once. you put on clothes and head to your. workout or head to work what going to. happen is your body temperature is now. going to increase more quickly it.

normally would do that anyway early in. the day as you wake up your body. temperature goes up up up up up up and. then whenever you achieve a sort of a. dip in uh energy in the afternoon. there's probably one time in the. afternoon whether or not you need a nap. or not that you feel a little bit. lethargic and then you kind of come back. that represents the peak in your body. temperature for 24 hours in fact most. people if they want to figure out their. sort of optimal bedtime I know this gets. pretty down in the weeds you just look. at that number so maybe it's 3:00 and. you say about seven hours after that.

plus or minus an hour that's probably. when somebody should go to sleep how do. I know that because that's when body. temperature starts dropping by what 1 to. three degrees so doing cold early in the. day makes total sense doing cold. deliberate cold exposure before a. workout total sense doing sauna before. sleep total sense the cold in the. morning the other thing that it does. when I get out is it makes me like. really [ __ ] happy which is what you. were talking about with the dopamine. raise it's so sign significant I mean it. really it is a joy of Life feeling and.

then as I start my workout I generally. start really slow I just do like a lot. of like Shadow Boxing and maybe I'll. skip a little rope to try to get my. blood up and then once I've do that for. a few minutes then I have a series of. 100 push-ups and 100 body weight squats. that I do every day so I go through that. and that's my warmup for everything else. because it's pretty low stress low. impact very easy to do and then by the. time the hund is 100 squats and 100. push-ups are done I'm warm and then I. start whatever work on I'm going to do.

but God damn I feel happy that is the. people that are trying to avoid it. because oh [ __ ] you doesn't do. anything shut up just just do it stop. your excuses and stop arguing about it. you're only arguing about it because you. don't want to experience discomfort I. know what you're doing you know what. you're doing we all know what you're. doing shut the [ __ ] up just get in there. just do it it's great for everybody and. if you can't [ __ ] handle it don't. talk about it but don't pretend that.

it's not good for you it's nonsense it's. one of the most if it you could sell. that [ __ ] in a pill it' be so valuable I. mean how many people are on ssris and. they're like I kind of feel better or. well first of all I completely agree. with you completely agree and I'm not. the you know again Craig heler in our. biology department at Stanford has been. talking in this General theme for a long. time Anna lmy who you had on here talked. about patients of hers who got sober. using cold plunges you say well how how. do they get sober to using cold plunges. you just you know taking one addiction.

and replacing it with another no what's. very clear is that when you're when. you're suffering or you're lazy or. you're. procrastinating doing something that's. harder than the state that you're in. bounces you back much faster this is all. based in the Dynamics of dopamine it. it's sort of crazy if you know how. people are procrastinating to write. something or do and they start cleaning. the house something they normally don't. want to do well it's just something. that's easier than the thing that you're. suppos to do right it turns out and I. learned this from Anna if you do.

something that's even harder than the. thing that you're trying to avoid all of. a sudden you're able to do that and. you're like okay what's just psychology. right no it's not psychology alone it's. psychology but it's that once dopamine. is deployed at that level you're a. different person and I know this because. if you take someone's dopamine and lower. it that makes them depressed that gives. them if you lower even more and give. them movement disorder Parkinson's if. you give them their dopamine back their. focus increases how do I know that.

there's a reason there's an ADHD drug. shortage right now rlin adderal they all. tap into this system the dopaminergic. and adrenaline norepinephrine system so. one of the most prescribed and. overprescribed classes of drugs is a. drug designed to try and get exactly. this effect of cold plunges and so I. completely agree if people would just. take a very cold shower or a very cold. plung or a little bit longer at 50. degrees although I agree with you that. shorter colder is better I what I didn't. describe and I'm not trying to rescue. myself here but I do that daily but then.

on Tuesdays is the typical day where I. do very very hot and very very cold back. and forth for well over an hour back and. forth back yeah you do that that serious. um growth hormone increasing protocol. I'm trying to condition myself to really. be able to tolerate heat and cold the. other thing I learned again from Suzanna. I take no credit for this is um and I'm. not suggesting people replace the cold. plunge with this or a cold shower with. this you're starting to see more of this. on social media and it's embarrassingly.

silly to think that that's a replacement. what I'm about to describe as a. replacement for coal plunges but if you. put she taught me she said if you even. just put a small portion of your skin in. ice cold water like your hand or your. arm you actually activate the brown fat. system that's how robust the system of. surface temperature to body is and so I. don't think it's a good replacement but. now you're seeing people saying oh you. just have to put your face in a ice in a. bowl of ice water there was a device. that that was going around a while back.

that people were using when they were. lifting weights where they were putting. their hand into some thing that was. freezing their hand and it increased. their ability to do work quite. substantially do you know what I'm. talking about so this was developed by. Craig hel's lab it's called the cool. mitt um it's a bit controversial and. I'll tell you why so you have on the. surface of your hands on the bottoms of. your feet and on your upper face you. have what's called glabrous Skin it's. the only skin on your body that's in. incapable of growing hair because there. are no hair stem cells there it's also.

the place where believe it or not it. goes normally things go arteries veins. capillaries but in this case you're. missing one of those components and what. it is is that top of your face the palms. of your hands and the bottom of your. feet are like radiators you can heat. passes out of your body very very. readily this is why animals like Bears. who are covered with hair will stand in. cold water to cool off it's very. effective it's also true that if you. want to heat up you do it through these. portals and so um Craigs lab did two. really important experiments the first. one was heating people up it turns out.

when people come out of anesthesia it's. very slow and this is a problem for all. sorts of critical reasons related to. keeping people alive and if you measure. people's body temperature when they're. coming out of anesthesia it's very low. and as it that heats up they wake up. just like out of sleep his laboratory. developed these heating devices that. would heat people's palms or the bottoms. of their feet and they found that they. could bring them out of anesthesia much. faster and recovery rate were much. better super impressive result not. talked about often enough and the reason.

it's not talked about often enough is. all this stuff around thermogenic. studies was really hot in like the 19 no. no pun in the sorry in the 50s 60s 7s. and then it was sort of considered kind. of like not lame but it wasn't hot. science there I go again I'm really. trying not trying to pun here um then. what what's happened in recent years is. people have gotten into these protocols. and it's become more popular his. laboratory also showed that one of the. reasons why we fail on like a set of.

dips or chins local muscular failure is. due to heating of the muscle locally due. to work and then there's a an enzyme. called pyruvate kinas which is very heat. dependent when your muscle gets too hot. pyruvate kinas can't function and your. muscle fails it's one of the reasons you. fail on a set so what they figured out. was if you cool people's core body. temperature they can do more work now it. got a little confused people say oh I. didn't double my bench pressure after. cooling my hands well that's not really. the point the point is that let's say.

you can do 10 sets of 10 at a given. weight with 2 minutes of rest in between. and that's all you can do and you're. hdden failure maybe you have to adjust. the weight down on sets four five six. Etc classic 10 sets of 10 that I don't. know if people do German volume training. or five sets of five if you lower the. core body temperature through the proper. use of Palmer cooling as it's called or. through some other device what you find. is people can continue to get the same. number of rep Ians provided they keep. the rest the same and they can double. the amount or more of work that they're.

doing total so they can increase their. volume the interesting thing is they. preserve the training effect so if you. can go from doing I don't know how many. dips I saw you do a bunch of push-ups. right there on a podcast recently you. like 75 right yeah so in theory if we'. been cooling your palms you would have. been able to keep going much longer. possibly 150 and you say well how could. that be well it's just a it's a local. change in the enzymatic reaction at the. level of mus muscle now the problem with. polymer cooling is people will go out. there and say I'm going to hold ice.

packs but if you do that you'll. constrict the portals it has to be the. right temperature so that you can. continue to pass cool in and that's why. it requires a device to heat uh excuse. me to cool your palms but not so cold. that you Vaso constrict and so there is. the coolm device to be honest is is it a. very effective device it they've never. been very effective at marketing that. device but they use athletes at Stanford. use it but nowadays what athletes mainly. are doing and I talk to pro basketball. players football players tier one.

military they're doing cold before their. training cuz it's just simpler and you. don't need a device interwork workout or. int workout cooling is really an. interesting topic but it hasn't been. perfected at the level of devices. they're still kind of clunky you got to. go put your hand in the thing no no. knock on cool mid I mean I think they'. they trying really hard I actually got. one for Cam that I still need to deliver. to him well what if someone just is in. the middle of a workout they just get in. a cal plunge for 5 seconds yeah you need. to lower your core body temperature so.

in 20 seconds half hour like how long. you going there for probably here's what. I think could really help and you could. try it um if you don't have access to a. coolit and I can get you one for you to. try but if you hold on you'd want to. hold something cold between your hands. for maybe 20 30 seconds well just dunk. your hand into the cold plch you could. do that too yeah if you have your Cal. plch right there yeah my Cal plch is. right next to the gym I could just dunk. my hands in there yeah the relationship. between temperature and sleep. temperature and the deployment of these.

neurochemicals temperature and. performance is one of these variables. that right now professional sports teams. and tier one military and scientists are. really starting to understand like this. is not a small variable this is a super. powerful variable it's just not an easy. one for the conventional gym to have. maybe at some point in the future every. St they'll have stations in the gym. where you kind of plug in yeah um and. you can just do more work it's all about. ability to do more work yeah and recover. and recover and it's clear that the cold.

after training is if your goal is to. train again well then you want. inflammation down but if your goal is to. improve as a consequence of that. training session you have to be careful. how much you're blocking the. inflammation yeah I know a lot of. Jiu-Jitsu guys like to do cryotherapy. posttraining and they say that it helps. tremendously and because of that. reduction of inflammation because you're. not really training for hypertrophy. you're training for volume and work and. you know cardiovas ular function and. your your ability to execute techniques. over and over and over again I mean the.

ability to do more work is I think one. of the not so secret secrets of. performance-enhancing drugs too yeah I. mean it's everything it's even at the. level of being able to get a really good. night's sleep even when you're slightly. overtrained yeah you know you know. people always say well what what do. these performance dude steroids make you. grow muscle well they'll increase. protein synthesis well look at Lance. Armstrong I mean he was on steroids and. he was rail thin it's not about that. it's about recovery. what do you ask your body to do he could. just do more work and I think and I I.

for all I know I believe he's natural. but like you think about a guy like. Floyd Mayweather and I I used to see him. running in the middle of the night and. you know it's Vegas if his testosterone. happens to be exceedingly High naturally. he can do more work and recover than the. person whose testosterone is lower. before they hit a wall so I'm not saying. he was using anything what I'm saying is. if somebody is has higher levels of. circulation testosterone male or female. they can do more work and recover that's. just the way it is here it is Floyd.

mayther reportedly took banned IV prior. to Manny Pacquiao fight so ban but but. this is banned IV for what it might. might be banned IV just because they had. some sort of protocol set in for us yeah. see usada so usada is uh they're the. ones that regulate the UFC testing and. they use they won't let allow allow. people to use IVs because IVs will allow. you to mask whether or not you've done.

performance-enhancing drugs I don't. think it was just that I mean I think it. was uh he tested positive for something. I mean amphetamines cause a it's going. to vary by dose Etc but a at least a. thousandfold increase in basil catacol. amine levels that's what they do how. many people do you know that are on out. or. all in the um I don't have a lot of. friends in the finance world but of the. ones that are you know the friends I. have who are in.

finance 100% the scientists I know zero. but scientists generally aren't of the. ader Roll type um musicians not so much. those are kind of the categories and. podcasters I don't know I don't know how. many quite a few podcasters there's uh a. lot of people that are journalists that. are on it a lot of writers and. journalists are on it I I've been. shocked when when I talk to these people. know my feeling about writers and. journalists what's your feeling well I.

don't know if we bring this up or not. but um you know I think the tides have. changed in recent years and that you. know conventional media uh has is used. to kind of they email you they want a. conversation that you know I think. sometimes they're surprised you don't. leap to to have that conversation or you. know I think one of the the problems. with the traditional press is that it's. hard to know where their heart is or. like where they are on a topic and so. conversations with them have become um a. bit of a Razor's Edge frankly well.

they're they're also like deeply. influenced by money like that there's. there's no that raccoon dog thing I. guarantee you there are some people. behind the scenes that are trying to. come up with some sort of a plausible. scenario that's alternative to the lab. leak Theory and that's why they're. coming up with this it's not the people. that I've talked to that understand this. I've had many conversations with. virologists and uh evolutionary bi. ologist to explain to me why this is. most likely a lab like no one has no.

they're not arguing with this so when. someone comes along with this and. they're saying oh we found it like no. you didn't no you you know you didn't. you're you're writing this article. because you're being influenced to do so. like someone is telling them that this. is a good thing to put out someone is. giving them information and saying we we. believe this and you should print this. and it's there's some there's money. behind that that doesn't reach. independent journalism that's the.

difference like the the amount of money. behind an advertisement that goes to CNN. or an advertisement that goes to the New. York Times it's a different thing than. what goes to Breaking points with. Crystal and Sager then what goes to Matt. taiii substack there's none there. there's no influence there these people. are influenced by gigantic corporations. that's why they put out articles that. are not plausible that's why people. don't trust them anymore that's why you. know people think they're [ __ ] shady. yeah well that the you're right they're.

incentivized by a whole set of things. that are not obvious from the Articles. themselves I'm a huge fan of what Sagar. and Crystal have done and are doing me. too huge fan it's incredible it's. incredible and it's important and. they're so [ __ ] honest like they they. give you what is their actual take on. whatever is going on in the news and. it's well researched and the the fact. that that exists now is so important. because if it was not for independent. journalism we would be in a pickle we.

would be in a really bad State because a. lot of people got duped by the pharmacy. the. pharmacological industry the. pharmaceutical industry the the medical. industry the industrial. military-industrial complex they've been. duped by so many different companies and. corporations that have a vested interest. in getting one narrative out and if you. can get that narrative out out through. the traditional pipelines of mainstream. media with no one factchecking no one.

interfering no independent journalist. saying actually that's not true at all. here's why they did that this was the. influence here's where the money is we. have emails we can show you they were. influenced if it wasn't for them we. would be [ __ ] and it's one of the. beautiful things about the internet. today the internet today allows people. like that to thrive because these. mainstream media corporations are so. corrupt they're so obviously indebted to. the companies that pay for their.

advertising yeah I mean my my initial. experience of them was uh long before I. had a podcast did an interview with. traditional media and then it comes out. and um I was they didn't say anything. bad but my quote was given to somebody. else their quote was given to me yeah. and then you say and I wrote and said. hey you know this is factually incorrect. I didn't say this first of all I'm not a. medical doctor this you got they they. swapped the names either accidentally. and then I got this oh well you know.

kind of response like too late you know. and but when it's retra but no and when. it's your neck on the line you know it's. your name I mean in science all we have. is our reputations in science or in. anything that's all we have is our. reputation so it's a scary thing to hand. that over to somebody so unless it's a. particular few set of sources I. generally decline traditional media. conversations the other and now the the. fight isn't just for traditional you. know over media traditional or. independent you know the universities. too right we we're asking I have to say.

and I'm not this is not a to be uh you. know politically correct or incorrect. Stanford has been very good about. letting different faculty at Stanford. voice their differing opinions on. everything from covid to politics you. know there's a free speech um a right to. free speech uh petition that's been. going around the campus for a while and. you can find this online now a lot of. people also will hear things about oh I. hear on college campuses like Stanford. you're hear getting a lot of pressure to.

do this or a lot of pressure do that. yeah there there are pressures from. students and top down listen students. are under pressure administrators are. under pressure faculty Under Pressure. but Stanford has been very good about. allowing people to have their own. independent social media channels and. talk to the public the way they feel is. best that's excellent and I and I have. to say it's one of the things that makes. me really proud to be there it's an. amazing place too but if you and I'm not. not going to throw out names here. because it's not my place and they. should probably just come on the podcast. separately but you've got people at.

every end of the of the major debates. out there about public health and. everything in between on Twitter fewer. on Instagram but on Twitter voicing. their opinion and honestly I think it's. beautiful that they are allowed to do it. well they're allowed to now because Elon. bought Twitter but before Elon bought. Twitter people were being silenced for. things that have been absolutely proven. to be correct which is crazy what the. value he's given back to people in the. last what has it been four or five. months since he's been in there yeah is.

tremendous I mean I remember people. picking on oh it's this feature that. feature we're going to have to buy a. verified check or whatever you know. these these things that when you compare. that to the ability for people to have. honest open discourse honest for them. because you know there's no regulator. right so that to me is incredible and. and fundamentally important he's given. people their voice back yeah and that. includes both sides that's what's often. not not stated is that people on both. sides are starting to get the axe mostly. on one side but it's it's really.

incredible and I think we're I'm hopeful. you know I I don't I'm a Live and Let. Live type person I really as long as. people aren't humming other people I. truly just encourage people to do what. feels right to them as we should all be. as we should all be it's kind of bananas. where we went between you know in the. last few years but what's happened in. health and public health I think is. pretty remarkable and encouraging from. my standpoint anyway which is people. people now realize that medical doctors. have a certain type of information that. is extremely valuable and they come in a.

range of flavors and qualities same with. psychologists same with Scientists same. with public health officials same with. everything from your your masseuse to. your chiropractor like there is a range. of quality and expertise and orientation. and to silence any one of those at the. exclusion of the others is is not only. foolish it's it's it's dangerous and so. I think it there's no going back there's. no going back now people seek advice on. multiple Dimensions you know a few years. ago if you said supplements people were.

like oh that's expensive urine well. that's true if you're talking about. vitamins and minerals but how many. people do I know who during the pandemic. started taking vitamin D getting some. sunshine what do you mean by that's true. if you talking about vitamins and. minerals well I think when we hear the. word supplements it gets confusing for. people I actually am wishing for a. better word because when people hear. supplements they think vitamin minerals. isn't that just expensive urine yeah but. it's not your body absorbs it if you. take it with fat and protein. carbohydrates right and and if you. overest fat excuse me water soluble.

vitamins you will excrete some but then. there's a whole category of supplements. like food supplements protein Etc and. then there's an entire category of. compounds that we call supplements that. have nothing to do with proteins fats or. carbohydrates vitamins or minerals. things that are known to have very. potent effects there's a reason why the. National Institutes of Health has a. division now simply for these types of. studies right things like ashwag can. potently reduce cortisol shouldn't be. used longterm but in the short term this. can be very beneficial for people.

especially late day cuz late day peaks. in cortisol not good for us we know this. correlated with depression anxiety. insomnia which then has a Cascade of. negative effects things like creatine. not just for we think creatine muscles. and indeed it brings water into the. muscles and make you stronger most of. the data clinical data on Creatine are. to enhance forbrain function it's one. it's a neutop it's a neut Tropic it. postconcussion post surg y postpartum. depression headache I mean fish oils so. there's this whole category of things.

that in theory you could get from food. but the volumes that you would have to. eat and the sourcing is just impractical. uh and that's just the tip of the. iceberg I mean there's riola Rosa which. is you know reducing cortisol there's. interesting data on that and then. there's the stuff we've talked about. before about hormone augmentation but. for the typical person out there. nowadays I think they're thinking about. what can I do what can I eat how can I. take better care of myself am I. magnesium deficient or not probably not. but will taking some additional. magnesium help me sleep yes will it hurt.

me no well are you. magnesium are you magnesium deficient. get your blood work done right like if. you want to find out that get your blood. work done everyone should have their. blood work done what I was curious about. like why you were saying that it's just. expensive urine like oh no no this this. is what other people but they're wrong. no this is what like you know my you. know when I was young I got into this. you know training and supplementation. early and people would say oh it's just. expensive urine you know don't spend. your money on that there are certain. things like within supplementation also.

the foundational supplementation as I. call it like things like athletic greens. right or I guess they call it ag1 now. things that are in such combinations of. herbs and plant-based compounds like you. can't take them one by one and then. other things like magnesiums for sleep. or inositol and the date on depression. or inositol and insulin sensitivity you. the number of people that are out there. who are pre-diabetic or type 2 diabetes. of course they need to exercise and eat. right but things like inositol can. improve insulin what isocol inositol is. it's similar to a vitamin but it works.

in a pathway that makes cells more. insulin sensitive which is good so you. can use the glucose and Insulin that. that you make so you're not. overproducing insulin type 2 diabetes is. essentially over production of insulin. because your cells aren't able to use. the insulin that's around so you crank. out more of it type 1 diabetes lack of. insulin from the pancreas that's why. people in have to inject it who have. type 1 diabetes so things like inasl I. mean and the list just goes on and on. you know so to me I think the view is. changing I hope that you know the idea.

previously was that before the pandemic. frankly was that supplements are just. kind of like neut Tropic that or you. know it's kind of you don't need it I'm. not saying you need it but they are a. powerful augment to good sleep good. nutrition good training good social. connection yeah if you want to optimize. idea of needing it like what do you mean. to exist you don't you could eat. McDonald's and just live like if you. want to optimize your health yeah. complements are very beneficial very. beneficial but I think for you and me. it's a it's a it's a duh but I think for.

a lot of people out there it's they they. seem to think that there's something. unique about prescription drugs that is. makes them better than supplements well. that's because they've been lied to I. mean that's that's the real problem is. that the corporations who control these. prescription drugs and sell these. prescription drugs and sell advertising. on television have got it into people's. heads that's why it was maddening when I. had Peter hotz on the podcast asked and. he was talking to me about the. importance of vaccination and I said do. you exercise how do you eat would do you.

take vitamins and there was Zero going. on with him he goes on walks. occasionally I. mean [ __ ] junk food he wasn't taking. vitamins you know he told me that U some. internist told him to uh take uh vitamin. D so he took that for a while I'm like. for a while yeah D seems vitamin D seems. to have made it through the shoot like. where anyone will take it cuz it doesn't. seem scary. well there was a recent study that. talked about people that died or were. hospitalized from covid and they could.

have prevented somewhere in the. neighborhood see if we can find this it. was a very high number a very high. percentage of hospitalizations and. deaths could have theoretically been. prevented with vitamin D supplementation. this was based on the number of people. that were in the ICU that were deficient. from covid or excuse me deficient from. vitamin D that were in the hospital for. covid and it was in the high 80s or in. the low 80% rather and then they did. this study showing what would have.

happened if they had just supplemented. vitamin D I mean I know many Physicians. here it is new study reveals vitamin D. in the body can significantly reduce the. risk of severe outcomes for covid-19. does it have the numbers what what year. is this from is this recent yeah but. this seems like a a strange website I'll. be honest with you oh is it I clicked. quick cuz it said two weeks ago. original. newsbreak. [Music]. yeah yeah I think they're selling.

something Tik Tok icon in the corner God. people are selling things it's so hard. there's so many wacky websites you know. you don't know gole think I think that. this it when I step back from what you. were saying a few moments ago you know I. think people need to remember that. scientific journals of which I'm on The. Advisory Board of several and have been. for a long time and are well-meaning. things let's keep in mind they're run by. people. and you know there the goal of those. journals ultimately is to publish papers.

that are true but that get people to. read them the more subscriptions the. more they sell right so I have a good. friend who's a uh is a senior editor at. a journals there's there's really only. three top tier journals nature sell and. science he said very and I asked him. once I said what what determines whether. or not one paper is accepted or not and. he said well we get to deter obviously. the reviewers have to give it thumbs up. at some point but we get to determine. the dire ction that the journal wants to. go so during the pandemic there was. enormous incentive for publishing papers.

these in these journals that provided. some either hope or fear or whatever it. was exciting at the time because people. were buying up these journals like crazy. I mean they have to pay their staff too. so you it's a business like anything. else unfortunately there is aside from. the federal research budget which is. frankly we're over where you have a much. greater budget than in other countries. for research relative to the total. amount available but it's still very low. compared to what we need uh but money is. what drives research I mean it's not.

going to the more money you have the. more margin for error you can have in. terms of the people in your lab like I. If you only have a million dollar year. operating budget like it's a business. you can have two or three really good. people and someone's not so good that's. bad if you have a giant budget you can. have 20 people and 10 of them can suck. that's rare to see that usually it's a. mixture of competent to talented the. occasional bad apple and those bad. apples are very very dangerous and the. bad apples I'm talking about are not the. kind of people that necessarily uh go.

around creating data out of nowhere. these are the people who slice off and. make experiments that didn't work kind. of disappear oh there was something. wrong with that mouse that is a serious. problem in science far more than. fabrication of data and how often does. that occur oh it's incalculable but I. would say that kind of I've been in. Laboratories big and small across my. career I've been around them a lot. everyone in every field knows the paper. papers that are like yeah nobody. believes that and these papers are. influenced by money generally not.

directly so the the pis the lab this the. way it works the lab heads genu to get. to a position where you're running a. laboratory at a major university or any. University Franklin you have to love. what you're doing I mean you don't make. a lot of money as a university Professor. there are there are incentives through. things like companies and a lot of. professors now have companies and we. could talk about that and that's. complicated sometimes or not complicated. but the point is that they want to heads. of labs want to make fundamental. discoveries they want to be true the the. the three biggest fears for a real. scientist are to get something wrong and.

not and to get it wrong for the wrong. reasons the wrong reasons would be. someone comes to your laboratory and. sees an opportunity to please the pi. this is I think one of the major sources. of error in science someone you're get. publishing papers as a postto is what. gets you a job so I've known over the. years posts and there's a lot of. discussion about this is inside ball of. science where someone gets there and. realizes that the head of this lab has a. pet hypothesis that's really exciting to. them why is it exciting because it's. exciting they like the idea but also it.

would allow them to renew their funding. yes definitely money is involved and. then that person goes and does. experiments and shows the pi the. experiments that work and doesn't show. them the the experiments that don't work. and then tells themselves those. experiments didn't work because you know. the center fuge was off or the mouse was. sick or something you know gives. themselves reasons why it was okay to. remove data that occurs I think I'm. going to guess here I don't know but I'm. based on my observation that's probably. about 10 to 15% of the top tier.

published papers I think don't last. meaning in the Years following they. don't replicate and they go nowhere and. I don't think it's because people made. up data quote unquote I think it's. because they threw out bad data or data. that excuse me they threw out data that. didn't fit their hypothesis and labeled. it no good that is very common now. people who quote unquote fudge data make. up data I would say that's 2% but that's. the Alzheimer study okay so the. Alzheimer stuff was legitimately a data.

fraud issue which is really crazy which. is C it lasted for so long before people. discovered it so then you say why could. that happen because did you explain to. people what happened yeah so um. basically the theory of Alzheimer's. that's still very prominent is that it's. the accumulation of these things called. Plax and Tangles which you can see under. the microscope and they're they've. always been considered a a a signature. that you can see with your eyes of. neurod degeneration that's associated. with Alzheimer's dementia and it's been. the the way that people have measured.

whether or not a treatment has worked or. not worked is the whether or not it. could decrease these Plax and tangles in. Mouse tissue and sometimes in human. tissue now we have to be clear that Plax. and Tangles do accumulate in the brains. of people with Alzheimer's and mice that. have mutations that make them kind of. like good models for Alzheimer's but. early on in the research on Alzheimer so. dating back well over a decade now there. was basically a a data fraud fudging of. data we call it where someone. essentially said that that there was a a.

label for a particular plaque or tangle. protein that represented something that. it didn't and then what this has. cascaded into over many many years is an. entire set of theories about which drugs. ought to be beneficial for the treatment. of Alzheimer's and I would say now. trillions of dollars put into research. along those particular lines of inquiry. so what we're basically saying is one. mistake can Cascade into a series of. thousands or tens of thousands of. mistakes that can take a field really.

far astray and that's what's happened. now they realized that there was a. problem with the early data now the. thing that's kind of baffling is how the. field continued down this path for so. long without actually considering. alternative hypotheses with any. seriousness why somebody didn't say hey. let's go back and test the initial. premise of all of this and part of that. has to do with if you know biotech is. neither good nor bad nor evil nor. anything it's just but it's a business. and there's a a pretty quick Runway from. a big Landmark Discovery to a couple of.

verifications to people founding. companies to Big dollars coming in. through Investments and then I mean how. many times have we been told Blockbuster. finding in mice and then when and then. people with Alzheimer say when is there. going to be treatment 10 years how long. about 10 years this 10 years thing has. been kicked down the road about over 50. years I mean I've been in the research. game 30 years close to it you you know. and so many things have just been kicked. down the road now there are kind of. Maverick folks within science who test.

very alternative hypothesis and they are. really the heroes of Science in my. opinion because they're saying that's. all fine and good or maybe it's all. false I don't know I'm going to go a. different direction and explore but in. the sociology of Science and science. funding it is very very hard to. impossible to get funding from the. federal government to do truly high-risk. pioneering science you might say like. how could that be in general when you. get funded by the government my lab has. been funded by the government for many. years you get funded for work that is.

already completed you show it to them in. a grant you say this is what I want to. do you get the money and wow the paper. comes out like the same year how did. that happen and then you use the money. to fund the next thing every every card. carrying laboratory head knows this why. because when you put in a grant that. says I'm this is a really exciting idea. they're not going to fund that so this. is why philanthropy and private money. comes into science and is very exciting. and enticing to scientists because they. can start testing things that the. Federal Government funding bodies are. just too conservative to test but that.

also leaves it open to manipulation by. Bad actors there there the whole system. is there's no way to Bulletproof the. system against Bad actors meaning people. who fudge data or I think the the more. Sinister aspect of my field are these. individuals who come to a laboratory and. go I want a job being a postto you're. not paid much often times they have. families they're under stress I'm not. justifi their actions and people go how. do you get the job at the best places. well you get it by publishing papers in.

really great journals and with your name. first so what does that lead to it leads. to really high ambition people working. very very hard and science is hard a lot. of experiments fail and some people will. just figure out that if they can just. give the lab director the figure out. their pet hypothesis like figure out. what Mommy and Daddy like what Mommy or. Daddy like most and give them those. results those people get promoted very. quickly now in the long run they don't. do well or what you'll find is they.

often just switch to an entire area new. area of science when they start their. lab they kind of get there and then. years later or even a year later you go. whatever happened to that result well if. you ask people in the laboratory postto. and graduate students it's sort of I. think probably like any any career path. they know the truth so if you ask them. what do you think of that paper and. they're like yeah I don't know that. means it's [ __ ] well wouldn't. shouldn't they be allowed to like have. one of those like. witness things where they do their voice. differently and shade their face well. the problem is they're all colleagues.

and that study is [ __ ] and science. is weird too because unlike in UFC or. something like that everyone's really. nice to each other's faces they're like. oh yeah great to see you great to see. you then you get the paper Anonymous. peer review and then they're like I'm. that's when people attack each other. kill people's grants kill people's. papers science is a it's not a Cutthroat. game but it's a very human game and now. I also want to highlight cuz I feel like. as an ambassador for my field I do want. to say that there are excellent. scientists who care so very much about. the truth and who go through every.

detail of every paper their families. suffer they everybody suffers as a. consequence of their neurotic tendency. but those people are the heroes of. science because they won't let something. go to publication unless they know is. absolutely watertight I think what you. said is very important it's a very human. thing yeah well you know subject to. human emotions and human instincts and. ego and jealousy and and a partner at. home who's probably like hey when are. you going to get out of graduate school. and we're going to actually move out of. this one-bedroom apartment I want kids.

or all our friends are are like taking. vacations in Tulum and we're like. suffering here and um or people who. think you know oh you get a PhD and that. guarantees a win I mean all all it does. is give you the opportunity to keep. competing so when you see people at the. the high the best institutions or even. somebody at a at a not one of the top. top institutions who's able to keep. their lab funded over a long period of. time that's one of two things it says. they're either really good at picking. questions and being very consistent or.

they are very good at hiring people that. are extremely careful and hardworking or. sometimes both but listen the bigger the. labs the more Pro the higher the. probability of a bad apple yeah and it. happens all the time all the time it's. just stunning when something like the. ameloid plaqu uh issue in in terms of. Alzheimer's is established and days for. so long that there was decades of like.

people were acting on that bad it wasn't. just bad it was it was falsified data. well it was FAL it was truly falsified. data and there's a there's a whole other. aspect of the sociology of science that. I think is not often discussed which is. that there's a huge incentive to be to. being promoted by your elders by your. graduate adviser and postto adviser. because they are the ones that write the. letters they get you promotions Etc and. so what tends to happen is people tend. to continue to do science that pleases.

their Elders now I have a for myself I. had both the curse and the blessing of. my undergraduate advisor graduate. advisor and postto we're all incredible. people and scientists in different ways. I was very very blessed but the first. one killed himself he had a bad. depression killed himself second one. cancer at 50 third one had a heart. attack across the desk from me first day. of work at Stanford he was my post. adviser uh eventually died of pancreatic. cancer so the joke in my field is you. don't want me to work for you right like. it's like a death sentence now they're. all dead but the good you know is a.

terrible thing to be orphaned in science. because promotions things like that. other people stepped in and helped me. and I'm very grateful to those people. but one of the blessings the hidden. blessings the Silver Lining and all this. is like I didn't have to please anybody. and so when it came time to do a podcast. or to look at data or review a paper I. was not worried about pleasing anyone. but but prior to that I'll tell you I've. been asked to write letters for people's. tenure you know can this person have a. job for life or not you they get 10 to. 12 letters and I've had people say Hey.

listen we're having a really hard time. getting letters for this person and you. know this person really needs tenure and. they' got a family and you know and you. look at the work and you go and you want. to say no and you can't because you. don't want that person to review your. paper and give and ask your next paper. now I've been very lucky because I don't. first of all just I think it's maybe. just the way I'm wired I just don't care. about that aspect of human you know I'm. one of these people I'm sort of like my. Bulldog costell was like I'm going to go. along with things until you try and push.

me and then like like I just have kind. of a resistance thing it's I some. developmental error or something who. knows but probably healthy I think it's. helped me a lot because what I've told. those people asking for letters is. listen I think they're not getting. strong letters because they're not good. enough for tenure at this place yeah but. that is unusual everyone plays this nice. nice game because when you're nice to. people they you get stuff and it it. creates a a rather dark underbelly of of. science that people don't talk about so.

in this field of. Alzheimer's what ends up happen what I. think ended up happening was there was. such incentive to go with the party line. and publish things that were validating. of previous papers because let's be. honest when you say nice things about. other people in papers it's easier to. get your papers in yeah and you know. scientists on Twitter is is changing. things because now people will really. pick apart a figure they'll they'll. really go after I think it's great it's. great it's great and I learned from you. early on and from Lex early on if you're. going to be out there as a scientist or.

on social media at all you know you have. to ignore a lot of stuff but if you know. if there's something to pay attention to. like Lex and I talk about this he and I. I'll just revealer writing an article. for one of the nature journals about. science and social media the journals. are now starting to pay attention to. podcasts and so conversation and being. able to really rip something apart and. having a pretty thick skin about it. that's the nature of good science and I. think that that field of Alzheimer's was. all pre-social media and people knew.

there was [ __ ] in there and they. just went along with it whole companies. were founded investor money where are. those companies where are those drugs. it's so sketchy and you know that's just. one I mean we're talking about the. Alzheimer's thing that's one and then. the other one was connecting heart. disease to saturated fat that was funded. by the sugar companies in I believe the. 1960s right was it in the 1960s yeah. this is Less in my wheelhouse but you. know the whole it's also fraudulent work. with the relationship between dietary. cholesterol and serum cholesterol.

doesn't exist the relationship between. saturated fat and serum cholesterol. however I think there there is a link. there this is more a Tia's territory. than mine but but even the the the. markers that like he's really. highlighted are so key things like apob. he's a big big on like your apob level. is is a a critical determinant of your. longevity what they were trying to do. was take away the option that sugar was. responsible and so they were putting uh. an an improper blame on on other things.

and they were just doing this funded by. the sugar companies and it's transparent. like we know and I think they were only. paid like $50,000 which is kind of crazy. because it changed dietary guidelines. for [ __ ] decades oh scientists you. know I guess this is an opportunity to. bring up Jeff Epstein so you know people. sometimes wonder you know like we're. scientists you know you know hanging out. with him to get you know to. with these young women or something I. know scientists there are some. scientists like that they were spending. time with him because he was giving.

their Laboratories money that they. didn't have to write grants for why was. he doing that though oh there are very. strong opinions he under I never met him. I know people who knew him um but he. clearly. understood social engineering he. understood that rich people have they. can get anything they want anything they. want except the one thing they can't. easily control is their reputation. because that requires other people's. perceptions and just being rich doesn't.

make you necessarily respected by. certain people yes by certain people no. so he understood that very wealthy. people feel more important and can. derive more sense of self-respect when. they're surrounded by brilliant people. and he was very good at bringing truly. brilliant people into that mix people. like Murray Gilman who discovered the. quork right he's a a particle physicist. I mean head of the Santa Fe Institute. Nobel Prize I mean he used Gman used to. pick on Richard Fineman he was one of. the few people who could maybe not.

verbally joust with him but at a. scientific level could could pin that. guy so they were on more or less equal. tier but fi you know Gilman was right up. there so EP understood like bring around. the the gilm bring around the top. genetic researchers from Harvard by. doing that he made these rich people. feel like they were in the company of. interesting important people interesting. and why would scientists time with rich. people I'll be really honest I do a lot. of work for uh these days for talking. about science and and trying to generate.

science philanthropy that's a big part. of my life now trying to generate money. to give to studies that are really. interesting and valid we could talk. about that if you. like scientists will show up to dinners. that normally they'd rather be in their. Labs or writing grants or with their. families frankly if there's the. possibility of money being given to. their laboratory because then they can. hire more people and do more science. money loan doesn't drive good science. but the more money you have the bigger. margin of error you have so if Epstein.

offers a offered Laboratories you know a. million dollars a year for four years to. a guy of that wealth is Trivial to a. laboratory that is four National. Institutes of Health Grants per year and. the workload to maintain those four. grants is immense so they'd show up with. the possibility of getting money that's. where they were hanging out with a dirt. bag like him and they they had blinders. on either they knew or they didn't know. what he was up to but they had blinders. on because they weren't thinking about. the implications well it was also one of. the things about something like that. must be that if you go there and you see.

Stephen Pinker and you see Lawrence. Krauss and you see Bill Gates it seems. like you should be there it seems fine. to be there also on you know Sinister. diabolical narcissistic and sociopathic. but brilliant social engineering on the. part of he understood that they felt. comfortable in the room because of who. else was there rich people will show up. to a place for who's not there as we. know they like to have space right and. scientists generally don't like to.

hobnob it's not really their thing what. they like to do is work on their. projects they're they're a little bit. like comedians that in the sense that. they they have a craft they want to be. working on they're only going to do. things like go out and get money if they. have to get money and they do a lot to. get money well I'm sure there's social. aspect of it hang around with other. brilliant scientists at a wonderful. place you have good food and drink and. pretty girls around it's probably. exciting it's probably exciting although. I think that at some level scientists.

real scientists died in the W scientists. would rather just be doing science and. living sure I mean I mean this is a very. rare occasion I'm sure that they're. doing this so he had the whole thing the. Harvard shirt I mean he he kind of he. ingratiated himself in this community he. just understood it was sort of like in I. do some work with some professional. sports teams right and the only people. that they look up to are tier one. special operators you you tell a pro NBA. player like oh in the NFL they do this. to like whatever you tell them that you. know this will increase your your output.

by 10% they're like whatever they don't. care they want to play video games they. do not care they want to hang out with. their girlfriend or their four. girlfriends whatever it is you tell them. tier one operators who do high-risk High. consquence work and are on deployment. schedules that would dissolve you into a. puddle of your own tears because it's a. vampire schedule you don't get to sleep. when you want to and you get you. potentially die you potentially all die. and they're running time are faster. their recovery times are faster their. shooting accuracy is far better than. your shooting accuracy and that's with a. gun and getting shot at and they go okay.

I'll listen they look up to tier one. operators that's a fact and so if you. want them to listen you understand that. fact you look at what tier one operators. are doing that's what professional. sports teams are trying to glean that. information. billionaires they have different. interests obviously they some race. Yachts some what you know want to start. new projects but they want to be around. really Innovative interesting people. and in Academia there are a very small. subset of those running big Laboratories. and Epstein just got that down to the.

detail and then he understood I think. with politicians they can their. reputations are everything and so he. gave them a vaulted world where they. could behave how they wanted I mean he. in some sense I mean he his story is one. of of multiple psychologies not just his. yeah that's why people that have studied. him in the whole case believe that and. and for from other in uh evidence and. information as well that he was part of. some sort of an intelligence operation. and there was compromising these people.

oh I'm I'm sure that at some point he. had information on other people and he. just used it as as as a and it doesn't. have to be stronghand black male right. he could just say you know we've got in. information we'll hold it secure well. you would just you don't even have to. Blackmail someone if you know they have. information on you and they have not. used it you will act in their best. interest to try to get them on your good. side well I mean in the in the. unraveling of the all the the dark.

sorted [ __ ] around um Weinstein it was. discovered I think in New York like in. think near that Avenue uh down in. Alphabet City police uh Precinct um it. turns out that there were you know a. boatload of files that date back ages. and you know there were it's not that. cops are corrupt it's that they're. incentivized by certain things too and. their bosses were telling them you got. to do certain things you got to put away. certain files and you know people are. trying to careers I I think that's why. that show it's a little outdated now but. um from technology standpoint but the. wire was so brilliant is that every.

aspect of that was a human endeavor and. science is a human endeavor and I I. we're we're kind of paying attention to. the the darker unfortunate side they're. also I again I always feel like I got to. shine light where it belongs to which is. that a lot of amazing science is. happening because of excellent. philanthropy of people that are not. pedophiles right and those people you. know and but let's be honest walk on to. any University campus look at the names. on the sides of the buildings do you. think they're there to honor those. people because those were great people. sometimes they're great people they're.

there because those people donated $50. to100 million right I mean and this has. been known in in law schools and. business schools for a long time because. you'd see it on the that was it kind of. more accepted there because it's. business and law but if you walk on to. any campus I don't care if it's UT. Austin or Stanford or it's Harver the. names on those sides of buildings. sometimes it's the Kennedy building. sometimes it's the Rockefeller building. more often than not these are names of. people you don't recognize anymore and. names of people don't even live in the. United States they gave $ hundred. million for a building that trains.

medical students universities are a. business too 100% and it doesn't mean. that they're trying to corrupt anybody. but they have to survive you got to pay. the janitor yeah you got to pay the cops. you get on the campus I mean so it is a. business and I think you The Human Side. actually to your credit I learned from. you we I think you may or may not. remember but a few years ago we were. talking about everything was going on in. the public thing and you're like the. reason I'm curious about this and I. don't trust this these were your words. more or less was because I know about.

people and that's at the end of the day. it's all about people in their. psychology well that that that is. science as well I mean the human aspect. of science is science it's it's. understanding motivations and incentives. and there's just a lot I mean look. that's how they got this whole FTX thing. you know with uh Sam bankman freed you. know he's he's parked at home prison uh. two blocks from Stanford campus is he. really you go visit him no he needs a. haircut that guy does he well have you. seen. him I just see kid with an afro it looks.

like he hasn't been really I think what. happened there is so but no there was a. lot of celebrity endorsements is my. point and they got but that's what it is. you get people to think oh Tom Brady's. investing it must be good oh there you. go and that kind of thing is exactly the. sort of methods that Jeffrey Epstein. used it's just having this association. with that are respected and. popular it's um how should I say this. it's I if I had a a super high-powered.

psychiatric microscope I'd go back and. find out how everyone that you would. ever work with or that you're getting. information from you would find out what. their kind of core developmental like. dissatisfaction is right because I think. therein you you see it's like I'm sure. everyone has this I'm sure bankman freed. felt like a like this big as the. consequence of something in his. psychology or experience and as a. consequence Justified doing this. horrible thing well I think he was.

clearly on amphetamines that's part of. problem the the that whole organization. was backed up by amphetamines and this. is publicly known like she tweeted uh. Caroline ellson tweeted that talking to. people when you like normal people when. you're on amphetamines is very boring. this over boring this overuse of a vamin. is I mean all we know is that it and we. do know that they narrow your focus they. they you become very outward and goal. directed yes I mean that's what cocaine.

and amphetamines do they make you very. of the of what's in the future and what. you can go get as opposed to being in. Bliss in yourself um perhaps an. interesting intersection of this idea of. neurochemistry and psychology and. universities and Sciences recently I was. asked um to give a talk at Stanford to a. bunch of potential donors um and on the. stage next to me was Michael pollen who. I have tremendous respect for love that. guy yeah even though he's over at. Berkeley like we tolerate him no I'm. kidding Michael that's a Stanford. Berkeley joke haha he is wonderful and.

amazing and such a pioneer of this whole. psych psychedelic space and you might. say well there were others there's. Terence McKenna and there's the classic. people but I started off that evening by. saying we need to take a step back and. just acknowledge what's happening here. which is saying the word psychedelics on. a podcast for me five six years ago. could have cost me my job easily saying. yeah take MDMA as part of a clinical. trial three times it was tremendously. beneficial I think psilocybin can Aid. with depression that would have cost me. my job done fired I would have walked.

out of here done now just this last. month the cover of UCSF magazine and. Stanford magazine Allison Wonderland. psychedelics deep feature about MDMA. ketamine psilocybin DMT what's happened. now is these this is be what used to. cost University professors their jobs in. the 60s and 70s and did cost them their. job jobs at places like Harvard in. particular is now the subject of. research studies clinical studies at. Stanford and elsewhere right UCSF Johns.

Hopkins this is now really big science. and Pharma is moving in very quickly. what they're trying to do is create non. psychedelic psychedelics figure out what. sorts of chemistry changes that doesn't. give you hallucinations and create new. anti-depressants that's what they want. to do with silos iin because doing two. Journeys on a drug and then you're done. that's not good business and what I love. about what Michael Paulin is saying is. that he's the one that's really he's. really hitting the drum on this morning. he's saying these things work the. clinical data are showing that.

65% plus success rate for what would. otherwise be intractable untreatable. suicidal depression incredible and now. the universities are behind it but. they're behind it because Laboratories. are getting funded to do it Laboratories. are getting funded to do it because. there's the there are grants why are. there now grants from the federal. government well philanthropists came in. early and provided money and now the. people are starting to see that there is. there are big big potential outcomes at. the level of Pharma now the classic.

psychedelics Community isn't going to. like that they're like no this is plant. medicine it's got a 100,000 year history. or more indigenous people Etc Academia. and Pharma don't care about that and I'm. not I'm not I'm one of these people I. don't I'm not saying they're bad and. they're good I'm saying that it's humans. again so why are universities suddenly. okay with the idea of discussions about. psychedelics in front of their top tier. donors the people that literally Supply. the blood to the university well because. top tier donors are now really. interested in psychedelics so what.

drives every aspect of it from the. student who's pipetting in the lab to. the the the highest tier of. administration in the university all the. way up to directors of NIH it's it it's. all interconnected at the level of. incentives right but the top tier donors. are clearly influenced by the zeit guys. and the the the way people have. approached and thought about. psychedelics has radically changed over. the last 10 years and Michael pollen is.

one of the reasons for that because the. omnivores dilemma he had established. himself as a legitimate journalist who. would comb through and parse through all. the data to give you a comprehensive. understanding of what exactly is going. on and he went out and did them or at. least some of them as as a kind of late. typical person not you know and and. didn't come out with um wearing you know. a robe right you know and or sit in the. Lotus position and he can discuss them. like a journalist but and then having.

podcasts discuss it then you're getting. this these positive drug stories out to. and I don't even like calling them drugs. positive compound stories about. psychedelics that are going out to. millions and millions and millions of. people and you're hearing about these. people. particularly soldiers who are coming. back with PTSD who are having tremendous. results people with overwhelming. depression people with all sorts of. problems with drug addiction and so many. different ailments that are being helped.

in this way yeah absolutely and look you. deserve tremendous credit here I know. you're not one to you know sit here and. take praise from your your guest but I'm. going to just say that you've been. talking about this for a long time about. the tremendous value of these things not. just for gaining new perspective because. I think in the 60s and 70s it was. remember it was tune in and drop out. right now we're talking about the use of. psychedelic medicine to be able to lean. into life in a healthy way yeah that's. the major difference and you've really. pioneered the discussion around that. Michael pollen and and there are others.

too I realized but it you know at a time. when it was considered really wacky and. out there now it's becoming it's headed. towards mainstream medicine and I think. it's fundamentally important I mean I. think Robin card Harris's laboratory at. UCSF has a paper out just today on the. use of DMT for treatment of psychiatric. illness his laboratory has been looking. at high dose psilocybe in two sessions. guided. sessions treatment of anorexia ADHD and. depression with very high success Nolan.

Williams Lab at my at my University at. Stanford psych he's a triple board. certified psychiatrist neurologist. running the studies with veteran. Solutions the group down in Mexico of. tier one operators and other people who. come back who are just messed up they're. they're light they're either heading. towards suicidal depression or they're. just not feeling quite right and using. abigan DMT in in tandem and getting. tremendously positive results so he's. doing the neuroimaging on them so times. are really changing and you and Michael. and others really deserve a token of.

gratitude I've completely revamped my. stance on psychedelics I'm still yet to. do a high do psilocybin journey I. haven't done that yet what was your. original stance on psychedelics I don't. want to lose my job and I'll be honest. so I was kind of a wild youth barely. finished high school and I did. recreationally I took LSD and Sil sain. in high school hung around with a Wild. Bunch and we were just partying with it. I didn't know what I was doing so my. view of it was it was associated with a. time in my life where I was pretty. Wayward right um then I never touched it. I drank a little bit smoked a little bit.

weed here and there but never really. liked weed very much it just wasn't my. thing and then when I did this three. sessions with MDMA that completely. transformed my understanding of how. these drugs work I also realized and you. might you probably already know this but. I was very curious about MDMA and the. reputation that puts holes in the brain. kills serotonin neurons you know the. study on MDMA that showed neurotoxicity. is was retracted from science they. actually inadvertently injected. methamphetamine into those monkeys but. you never hear about that how do you.

inadvertently inject. methamphetamine Oh I thought it was. aspirin you don't hear about that. retraction you hear me so they now have. data in humans asking what are the. safety profiles on MDMA for people that. take it every once in a while to very to. people have taken hundreds of doses of. MDMA and there's one population of. people that you can do this on that. makes it a really good experiment those. people can't do any other drugs because. then it becomes confounded by are they. doing meth are they doing coke are they. conocybe and what El it's not a good.

experiment you want single variable. manipulation there's only one group that. you can do that on and that's who they. did it on and that's Mormons so that so. the the Church of latterday saints has. one drug that's not on the band. substance list and that's MDMA wow and. I'm not saying all they can't even drink. coffee makes it even better experiment. and so I'm not saying that Mormons are. all taking MDMA but there there is a. there is a substantial number of LDS. latterday Saints I think they call. themselves now Mormons as most people. know them who have taken tons of MDMA.

and they've done brain Imaging and. psychiatric profiles on them those data. say that done as long as it's not. contaminated with something else which. is a serious issue the neurotoxicity is. nil to none wow amazing right at the. appropriate dosages Etc that's amazing. amazing and. problem contaminated MDMA is super. common uh the recent data I saw was that. um you go out and buy MDMA from a quote. unquote trusted source and six out of 10.

are going to have potentially lethal. levels of fentanyl in them oh my God. yeah six out of 10 yeah and everyone. nowadays knows to say oh this is from. Maps you know because it's like saying. like you know it's clean right so in. anyway I've completely changed my stance. on on psychedelics I think they have. tremendous power if done responsibly I. think that they hold the greatest. promise for for drug-based psychiatric. treatments and I I think we're we're. looking at a time in which it's it's. absolutely clear that that these things.

should be available to people Robin will. tell you the worst part about running. his laboratory is someone will come in. with intractable suicidal depression. they'll do two cocy and treatments and. they're better and then two years later. they'll come back and they'll say how. can I do another one because it made me. feel so much better and he'll say sorry. they're still illegal and I he can't. provide them he'd lose his job yeah so. right now the legalization effort is. really important and I I intend to get. more vocal about this well that's great. I'm glad you will and I I think it's a.

popular stance now I don't think it's. nearly as dangerous as it was 5 10 years. ago yeah which is kind of crazy because. it's it's uh that's one of the more. interesting aspects of um the way. podcasts have. infected the popular opinion on things. because it's sort of changed people's. understanding through data and through. talking to people like Michael pollen or. Rick doblin or you know any of these. experts that really could tell you. what's actually going on and how this. helps and then there's many people that.

have these stances on these drugs that. hear these things now and go you know. what God damn it maybe I'm ruining my. life by not being open like maybe this. could actually help me maybe this could. help my mom maybe this could help my. father maybe this could help my brother. you know there's so many people out. there that really could use some help. and human beings have been using these. compounds these substances and these. mushrooms and these psychedelics for.

thousands of years there's a reason why. they put them in rituals they may be the. source of most religious experiences. they may be the source of Many Many. religious texts in fact John Marco. Allegro one of the head. um the guys who is hired to decipher the. Dead Sea Scrolls he wrote a book called. The Sacred Mushroom in the cross after. translating the Dead Sea Scrolls for 14. years his belief was that the entire. Christian religion was initially based.

on psychedelic mushrooms and fertility. rituals and so he wrote this book that. was bought out by the Catholic church. and then you had to buy like they it's. reprinted now but you had to buy like. copies used copies of it online to get. it and so then he made another book. called The Dead Sea Scrolls and the. Christian myth that was based on the. same material. amazing you know that this is really an. opportunity to say that about that. positive aspect of philanthropy you know.

one thing that I know about very wealthy. people is they almost always have at. least one family member who's really. screwed up really screwed up mentally. especially um and not just wealthy. people poor people too but like most. people yeah yeah definitely I'm talking. people have a family member that's. [ __ ] right so what's happened is a lot. of the money that's going into. psychedelic research that's coming from. philanthropy is coming from these very. they feel desperate very wealthy people. and they're going to universities and. saying what can you do for my kid and.

the university are saying well we've got. transcranial magnetic stimulation and. that works on some people but not others. and they're saying great what else do. you have and they're saying well we have. talk therapy and they're saying well. that's important too but you know what. else do you have and they're saying well. there's these interesting compounds that. seem to relieve depression and they're. like well why isn't that available well. it's still illegal and we don't have. money to fund it because the the federal. government's been very reluctant to get. involved. I mean it's it's an odd thing that we. have you know we have bodies within the. the government that are designed to put.

people in prison for drugs and then we. also have bodies of the same government. that funds from the top down that study. drugs but keep in mind that the NIH up. until recently was only studying drugs. of abuse remember it's naida right it's. it's about drugs of abuse addiction and. abuse so they're studying cocaine. amphetamine for their addictive. properties studying psychedelics is. becomes a little bit of a tricky thing. where are you going to fund that is it. because they're if anything they're. anti-addictive according to the data. right and here I should be careful and. say that like the Iain studies you know.

there is a heart risk they do have card. they usually have someone measuring for. Iain yeah for Iain have there people. died of heart attacks from I no but not. that I know of but they're they're. always. monitoring blood pressure and heart. rates in for like veteran solutions they. have Physicians there and they're very. careful um great organization Iain is a. very strange one I've I've never done it. but the people that have have had crazy. stories to 22 hours yeah 22 hours and. horrific experiences were just intensely.

introspective breaking down of all the. Pathways in your mind that have been. carve throughout all of your traumatic. experiences your whole life that led you. to be the person you are today I know. multiple people that have done it. because of an addiction to opiates and. it's helped them it's helped them. tremendously kicked them been can you. argue with those data I mean it's a when. you hear that I mean opioid addiction is. one of the hardest things for people to. kick I people die when they die trying. to go cold turkey I mean it's it's.

unbelievable yeah I think ibigan was. described to me by a friend who's a. former Seal Team operator because he he. went down to veteran Solutions and he. said it was eyes open no hallucinations. every time he would close his eyes he. would get a highdef movie quality view. of an experience from his life and he. had agency he could move himself. differently within that experience and. then it would move like a cube and he'd. get another experience and then he was. in that experience 22 hours and then. down there they follow that up with DMT.

one or two and he described DMT as being. strapped to the shock wave of of an atom. bomb this is somebody who's obviously. been through some intense experiences. anyway and all of that might just sound. really crazy and extreme but keep in. mind those same people are coming back. to Stanford and Nolan is scanning their. brains before and after and seeing. incredible changes in the positive. direction. I think most people for most people the. psilocybin macro do two macro does seems. to be the depression treatment um so. this is 25 milligrams of psilocybin I.

think it translates to about 2.5 to 5. grams of mushrooms is that about right. it's what Robin tells me um the heroic. dose the heroic dose and what's. interesting is the micro doing because. now there's ex the comparison of you. know daily 1 milligram AK micro doing. versus the the two heroic doses the. micro doing has not shown impressive. results for treating depression and I. think people should know that I think. they I'm not saying micro doing is bad. but in terms of treatment of depression. it has not proved to in the clinical.

studies so for that application but I I. can tell you personally that micro doing. for just daily life makes things really. fun tell me more I enjoy it I enjoy now. no no no right now I'm not I'm not on. anything with coffee but uh I have done. it many times and I've taken a gram a. day 30 days in a row okay so a gram a. day is probably about five milligrams. take days off here and there but I enjoy.

it a lot it's the it's it gives you a. silly Carefree Consciousness that is. unperturbed meaning that it doesn't. affect my judgment it doesn't affect my. ability to have a conversation with. someone it doesn't affect my ability to. do my job whether it's do a podcast or. even do UFC commentary or do anything. else it just puts me in this very. appreciative thankful low anxiety state. can I ask you a question about um that.

and and sort of earlier in an earlier. podcast you brought up that when um. things got a little hectic in life that. you were were doing mushrooms yeah those. were those mushroom doses higher dose. mushrooms that you're referring to no. one gram okay I mean occasionally higher. yeah yeah but one G seems to be like the. magic number for me like one gr just. sort of you skate around for like four. or five hours and there's no come down. there's no it's just like you're just. happy amazing yeah yeah people in my.

field have been encouraging me to do the. macros psilocybin um it's it's in the. it's in the books I'm I really want to. do. it Robin cardart Harris again describes. it as one of the more quote unquote. honest psychedelics like you can't. really decide what's going to come up. you and a key thing he mentioned is that. people need it this is you may find. interesting I'd love to know if you. believe this for your own experience as. well he said there are a couple. variables to these successful treatments. of depression with higho psilocybin one.

of them is that people stay in the eye. mask that if they spend too much time in. the room with the eye mask off they. don't do enough of the introspective. yeah I would imagine that's the case. because you're just distracted by. visuals and you could concentrate on. that instead of just mechanists used to. always just Terence McKenna used to. always say silent darkness is the most. important aspect to a real trip well. you're learning and you're going in with. with the intention to interface with. this Divine Consciousness and and learn. something I got to pee sure let's pee.

and we'll come back I'll be right back. po I did an episode on uh water yeah the. water people are crazy it's amaz you. think of all of all the topics that you. could cover you think oh you know water. is very benign right the prescriptive. that comes out of the data if you want. to keep your cognitive and physical. function best it's an average not every. hour an average of 8 ounces for every. hour up to 10 hours after after you're. awake so that's 80 ounces during the. daytime you're to be peeing constantly. yeah it's probably good but and then. less at night but um yeah the water.

people because what happens is people go. oh you know pH water doesn't change your. body is pH true but there are some. advantages to pH water like it has. minerals in it then people go no it's. all about dyum depleted water near the. ocean there's more dyum in water it not. from ocean water and then people are. like really into dyum deplete water for. cancer this are all these Niche. communities and water OS reverse osmosis. water which has no magnesium or calcium. then it's like people are really into. that people say that's terrible and. every free hydrogen water structured. water and it's bananas and so the the.

key thing is there's the Galpin equation. which is your body weight in pounds. divided by 30 equals the number of. ounces of water to drink for every 15. minutes you train like Galpin figured. out that can improve performance like. there's all this like water gets super. geeky and I love it um one thing before. I forget the um Robin carard Harris he. said eye mask and he said the power I. was so surprised this is like a this is. like a hardcore researcher tells me the. most important variables are the dose so.

set and setting the obviously but the. the eye mask and music he's like when. people don't have music somehow the. music and that the music during a a COC. cybin Journey have a kind of a build and. then have a kind of more emotional soft. tone in the kind of taper of the final. hours or two he said that he thinks that. that's a very important component to. guiding the introspection and if for me. as a biomedical researcher at a school. of medicine and he's at a school of. medicine dude to hear this conversation.

like I don't know whether not to to. laugh or cry because these are the kinds. of conversations that a would cause you. to lose your job for legal reasons in 10. years ago or people would just say. they've lost their minds yeah and this. is the hottest Topic in biomedical. research right now in terms of. Psychiatry the hottest topic. psychedelics or psychedelics with. psychedelics in general just what's. happening in a journey uh how to do a. journey properly how much dosing and so. you know take your life 5 10 years ago.

or even before things that you've been. talking about with people for a long. time and now it's being talked about by. these by in the biomedical research. Community funed 20 years ago I was uh. being warned by producers of a. television show they're like why are you. doing this like you're you're talking. about this openly like this is terrible. like why are you doing this to your. brain I'm like you guys don't know what. the [ __ ] you're talking about I'm like I. don't know what to tell you but I'm not. scared to tell to express my opinions on. things if I actually believe them well. this is my strongest stance in in why I.

love your podcast why I pay attention to. podcast in addition to Scientific. journals is that if you look at let's. say let's look at like this really Niche. crazy field of bodybuilding like how. many people want to look like Dar Yates. how many people want to look Arnold. Schwarzenegger female body very few very. very few and yet that Niche Community. understood hormone augment ation at the. extremes and now we understand hormone. augmentation at at a healthy dosages in. men and women has tremendous longevity.

Health span effects mental and physical. yeah in terms of and so there's value in. these early Niche communities you know. psychedelics or in bodybuilding or. martial arts or in yoga communities or. in breath work it's just that we see. these extremes of like a Wim Hoff or a. you know or somebody who's doing. deliberate heat exposure exposure and. the question for a really good scientist. should be is there value there what can. we extract that the general population. could benefit from at a more subtle.

level like weight training everyone used. to say you only lift weights if you're. going to the military playing football. you're a bodybuilder how about extending. neural function in the brain by. stimulating the neuromuscular system. right um in people in their 70s I mean. that's being done now so I I think that. an open-mindedness is really what's. needed in biomedical research and Public. Health and I I think I can't speak for. you obviously but I get very frustrated. as I think you do and other people do. when people are immed just shut the door. like oh that's just like crazy Bro.

Science biohacking actually there's a. different name for it it's called ahead. of its. time science it's called paying. attention to things that clearly have. big effects and that at lower dosages or. done in a in a particular way might. actually have tremendously positive. effects and the best example I can point. to would be physical training resistance. training but also. you know if you jogged in the 1950s I'll. never forget that scene in Madmen where. the woman's out for a jog and all the. housewives are like what is she doing no. one ran outside of PE class well jogging.

craze now it's like accepted to be a. runner it's encouraged to be a runner. huge effects psychedelics and so I think. I'm old enough now I'm 47 to just see. like ah the stuff that everyone thought. was crazy supplements you don't need. that this is the stuff that can make. life better yes and so I you know I'm I. don't encourage people to but I. encourage many of them to retire I'm. like just a lot of voices just need to. retire just go away and let the Next. Generation come in and they'll. eventually replace me too and they.

replace us all and they'll get replaced. but let these new ideas at least be. considered and talked about that to me. is what's exciting about podcasting and. social media yeah and also if you're. getting advice particularly advice about. physical health about metabolic health. or about mental health or about the. possible pro pro the the actual benefits. whatever they may be to and it's very. it's not just dose dependent when we. were talking about psychedelics it's. dependent upon the psychology of the.

individual it's dependent upon your life. experiences whether or not you have a. tendency to schizophrenia it's not those. people shouldn't do bipolar bipolar. schizophrenia very clearly you ramp up. the dopamine Andor serotonin system you. amplify psychosis in fact I I was. studying cannabis for a while for an. episode clear health benefits of. cannabis and yet we also know that if. young males in particular study out of. Canada who have a predisposition to. psychosis do very high THC. cannabis they are at a much greater risk.

the estimate is up to four times greater. risk for a major and possibly permanent. psychotic episode now I am not saying. that weed is bad I'm saying that there. are individuals for which it is not. going to be a good idea and there are. other individuals for which it might be. a very good idea yes um look at the. individual like if you're talking to. someone who's fat and they're talking to. you about health. maybe that person is not. really qualified to have this discussion. maybe they haven't taken care of their. own physical health so they really.

shouldn't be Distributing information if. you knew something that could radically. change the way your body responded to. diseases the kind of energy levels that. you would have your mental health but. yet you were ignoring it for some. strange reason well that person has a. giant hole in their life game right and. there's a lot of people out there. Distributing Health advice that have a. giant [ __ ] hole in their health game. absolutely know like Bill Gates is a. great example that he's got this big fat. belly and he's telling people they have. to get vaccinated like this kind of.

binary thinking this kind of ridiculous. way of looking at the world through only. pharmacological interventions through. only medicine through only this through. only that there's so many different. things that you have to do to be healthy. and it's too much work for most people. so they're not going to wait train. enough they're not going to eat the. proper Foods they're not going to. supplement their hormones they're not. going to do blood work on a regular. basis and have someone who is a.

qualified physician who goes over that. blood work with them and gives them a. comprehensive understanding of what they. need to do or not need to do hey your. blood pressure is too high hey your your. body Fat's too high hey you're this. you're dehydrated you're this you're. that you have low vitamin D you have low. magnesium all that [ __ ] is massively. important so when you see someone who's. Distributing advice and they clearly. aren't paying attention to everything. that we know today well they're not on. the cusp they're not ahead of the game.

they're not they shouldn't be the type. of person that's telling the rest of the. world what to do yeah it's like a. dentist with bad teeth yeah you're just. like but you know cosmetic surgeons and. dentists with bad teeth you don't see. them you don't see a wrinkle dock with. like a prune face because it's right. there that's the product that people are. paying for unless he's really good like. like this guy doesn't give a [ __ ] about. what he looks like but he can make you. look great well and those their. reputations I have to imagine travel. really fast genius yeah I mean it's uh. you know I did an episode in hair.

recently and it was like the guy who did. a hair transplant for the first time His. Name Escapes me for the moment he you. know he figured out how to make his. practice popular you worked on. politicians and celebrities and word. spread quickly and you know he had a he. was the one who was the the Mind behind. that brand Clinique he said we should. call it something clinical so it sounds. like medicine that whole hilarious yeah. oh and he was he died at '96 a full head. of hair by the way um it's it's. interesting that you know you talking. about people won't do the thing right. now there's a lot of excitement about. semaglutide yeah okay so this is a glp1.

gluc glucagon likee peptide the story of. that is since you like animals and in. the natural world a guy down in South. America was looking at heila monsters. those really scary things and he. realized they don't have to eat very. often I wonder if they're hungry all the. time or not turns out takes their blood. isolates a peptide which turns out to be. glp1 puts it into other animals and. realizes it suppresses appetite amazing. right like this is what I love about. biology some dude who's studies heila.

monsters turns out humans make. glp1 gp1 is stimulated by things like. Yerba mat te certain other compounds. plant compounds stimulate its release. but what does it do in the hypothalamus. it suppresses hunger by way of there's a. particular brain aru pathway blah blah. blah but it also affects the. mechanosensors of the gut so that you. feel like your guts up full like you got. it's almost like you're getting like a. pharmacologic uh tummy stapled stomach.

right so when people take a drug that. mimics gp1 their brain is like I'm not. as hungry and their stomach feels full. even though it's empty and so people. lose weight it has other effects too but. it's working on body and brain this. becomes obviously the Blockbuster drug. of our times this is reminiscent of the. fenfen remember Fen yeah I remember. couple people died of fen right I knew a. gal who developed a heart problem that's. it's a valve thinning and some issues. there gone done it was off the market I. remember that was in college fenfen gone.

it was an amphetamine right it was an. amphetamine yeah yeah and it probably. felt pretty good to be on too because. things like adero Ridin all that people. like that because it's it's it's. amphetamine if I show you the structure. of amphetamine I show you the structure. of AD ader rline you don't have to be a. chemist to just go those look very. similar so glp1 is. changing everything uh to diabetes. people are taking it obesity people are. taking it people crave food less and. somehow and I don't know how to explain. these data AA would know far more about.

this than I would is somehow it's also. allowing people to lose weight even. though they're eating similar amounts. and so it's probably impacting metabolic. pathways it's not without its side. effects but getting I think it's called. o zic is the brand name yeah um it like. that's going to be like ater all soon. it's going to be hard to find really. soon it will be because it is so I mean. everybody's trying to get this stuff but. won't they just ramp up production of it. if they can if they can keep up but. right now there's an Aderall shortage. there's an Aderall shortage there's hu. because of all the nonprescription.

people get the prescriptions and sell it. big big money on college campuses big. money in finance in the then there must. be a real problem with like cartel fake. out all Lac it's being cut it's being. cut and resoled yeah so but I think the. semaglutide thing you know I'm more of. the I always feel like behaviors First. Nutrition. supplementation and then prescription I. have a question for you about um the. semaglutide stuff because one of the. things that we've discovered when we. started going into it and talking about.

on the podcast was that 34% of the. weight loss was muscle mass bone mass. and connective tissue doesn't surprise. me my thought was was that because they. were losing weight because if you just. get someone to lose weight if someone. just stops eating food and just starts. like really kind of starving themselves. they are 100% going to lose bone mass. they're going to lose muscle mass and. they're probably lose some connective. tissue Mass too yeah they get skinny fat.

is there anything that's been done to do. yeah skinny fat is there anything that's. been done where they've examine people. who have uh done weight training and. done resistance training while they're. taking semaglutide and does that. mitigate this uh the effect of that. stuff I have to imagine it would I'm not. aware of any trials I mean you know. doing human research is so tedious and. expensive you'd have to have people you. could do it you could you know and um.

but you know if you had 50 subjects in. each group doing weight training and are. they doing sets to near how hard are. they it's hard so I'm not I'm not. dismissing it's an awesome study you'd. want to see that you'd want to encourage. people to weight train to offset the. muscle loss um and fat loss one thing. that's interesting is that when you. trigger the hypothalamus with glp1 the. hypothalamus sends out signal to. multiple tissues if not all the tissues. of the body so it doesn't just send. signals to the adapost tissue saying oh. you know um lose body fat it's going to. also signal to the musculature and laye.

and I get into some really deep Dives on. this kind of thing you know when uh. years ago there's a a study of what's. called neat non- exercise induced. thermogenesis if you look at people that. move around a lot bounce their knee kind. of moving around those people like very. staccato with their movements they can. burn up to up to 1,800 calories more per. day than a person that sits very still. wow this is beautiful work done by. Rothwell and stock if people want to. look up those papers amazing papers just. is there health benefit to that in any.

way or is it just a matter of burning. off calories just burning calories this. is so micromovements and so then you. know for instance in the treatment of. anorexia the most deadly by the way of. the psychiatric illnesses most many. anorexics die and they have low muscle. mass this is where I'm going with this. because it relates to the semaglutide. thing they are often in their treat. treatment forbidden from doing these. kinds of fidgeting things cuz they're. they're constantly trying to lose weight. all the time anorexics are very aware of. the caloric content of food it's almost. they have a near Precision calculator in.

their head of the caloric content in. Foods they can look at a hamburger and. they can tell you how many fats. carbohydrates and proteins are in there. they're they're computer and it's. horrible and they're also always trying. to lose weight always trying to to burn. calories always and so this neat non-. exercise induced. thermogenesis thermogenesis excuse to me. is very. robust in people that uh in people that. move around even there's a study out of. un of Texas Houston you're this is wild.

the Solus muscle The Wider muscle of the. calf for those that you know don't know. that there's a guy down there who's. running a human physiology laboratory. and he's like you know insulin. insensitivity is a real problem type two. diabetes the soest muscle is 1% of our. total musculature and he asks a really. great question he's like what if when. people are sitting during the day. because everyone's sitting they just. bounced one you know did what he called. a Solus push-up which is kind of it's a. it's a one-legged seated calf raise. right with no weight and they're just. bouncing their heel like this like I. used do in class what turns out the.

Solus is an unusual muscle because it's. very small percentage of our total. musculature but its energy utilization. is enormously High what does he see well. when people Just Bounce their heel their. insulin sensitivity improves their. resting glucose improves and all they're. doing is moving a bit more but they are. moving their Solus what's happening. it's likely that they're mimicking. walking enough during the day that. they're getting these positive effects. now wow I'm not encouraging people to.

just do this and when I put some of this. out on social media you know that the um. the the jimm jockeys you know who I'm. friends with right they they sort of. they were like dude come on don't get. people thinking this is exercise I'm not. saying that people should just do this. but these micro movements that we do add. up a lot during the day well there's. nothing wrong with facts no there's. nothing wrong with facts you're not. encour you're not saying this is all you. need to do if you were doing that that. would be an issue I'm never I try and. avoid the words only you know as much as. I can in life unless it's appropriate so.

you asked about loss of musculature when. we are losing weight or when we have. high levels of glp1 signals are actually. sent to the musculature to become. catabolic like the body wants to. conserve its most precious resource. which is muscle and fat and so gp1 very. likely based on the output of my. knowledge of the output of the of the. hypothalamus the animal studies tell us. that it's signaling to the most. metabolically expensive tissue of the. body to conserve itself or to catabolize.

itself so you know fat is one of the. harder reserves to lose for that reason. but losing muscle bad and I guess the. the the short and sweet of this is. anyone trying to lose weight should be. doing resistance exercise especially if. they're in a caloric deficit what ises. this here people take semaglutide but. don't resistance train brain risk losing. muscle as well as fat doctors warn. here's why it's important to have a. healthy balance of the two I found a. couple recent articles that say some.

doctors are telling people with this you. have to weight train or you're going to. lose muscle well that's good that makes. sense that but that is literally the. case when people starve themselves it's. one of the things that happens when you. starve yourself is your body start I. mean it happens to Fighters when they're. cutting weight if they do it improperly. if you're not just cutting water your. body starts to absorb your muscle tissue. and your body temperature core body. temperature goes down cuz you're less. thermogenically active Jamie I I don't. think I've ever asked you put that back. up please there have been a few studies.

of muscle loss of semaglutide so far but. Japanese researchers reported that. people lost half a kilo of muscle after. three months on the drug that's not that. much half a kilo of muscle is a pound. why are they saying it that way like. they're making it look like it's one. pound of musle traditional media right. but it's two mus two pounds is kilo. right I know 2.2 yeah so what the [ __ ]. are you saying they lost a pound of. muscle that's not hard it's common. problem with interventions to lose fat. but yes that is a common problem with.

interventions to lose fat makes it. imperative to also prescribe resistance. training to prevent muscle loss but my. concern is that semaglutide is seen as a. Magic Bullet by some people and uh and. isn't always combined with exercise I'm. sure I'm sure you know there's so many. confusions in exercise science and. weight loss that I've learned about. recently from from Lane that just make. me like I I'm baffled so for instance. you hear that if you eat fewer. carbohydrates you burn more fat right. okay so seems like a simple statement so.

people go yeah I'm going to have a low. carb diet I'll burn more fat but when. you say fat what they're talking about. is not necessarily body fat like when. people mistake body fat from dietary fat. this is how this is how like like. kindergarten or nursery school or. illiterate we are about our own health. because people so it is true that if you. Lane has been educating me on this uh if. you reduce your carbohydrate intake yes. you'll burn a greater percentage of your. calories from fat but if you're eating a. lot of fat you're going to burn a. greater percentage of it from those fat.

calories that you're eating it doesn't. necessarily mean you're losing fat. stores all that matters in the end is. that calories in calories out balance. what help what helps people with you. know like particularly things like the. carnivore diet or something like that. what helps them is with satiety like. there's something about carbohydrates. it's they're so good you want to keep. eating them like if I have a steak by. itself I eat the steak and I'm good but. if there's like Lobster mashed potatoes. or fries sitting there I keep going and.

that's like an extra thousand calories. at least well so part of that is the. blood sugar response some people will. say why do I crave a big dessert or. dessert something sweet after a big meal. that should make no sense right well. that's a blood sugar increase but the. other reason is your your gut has. neurons in it those neurons signal to. the dopamine centers in your brain and. those neurons are looking for basically. three things they want amino acids we. are basically amino acid foraging. machines fatty acids because fats are.

good for us too that's my opinion not in. excess but they're good for us and sugar. and when you get enough steak you're. getting enough amino acids and fatty. acids and that signal is sent to your. brain and a pathway shuts down that says. I need more the moment you throw in a. cookie after that Stak all of a sudden. your appetite goes and it's not blood. sugar or at least not blood sugar alone. it's those neurons in your gut going oh. there's sugar coming into my system get. more of that because it's a evolutionary.

conserved system designed to get you. more resources so this is why if you. look at your gut brain axis is yes. there's a microbiome and that's. important too but if you think about it. as it's sensing things independent of. taste it's actually looking for specific. nutrients then I think if people forage. most for high quality protein and high. quality fats it's kind of obvious that. that's the best way to to build the the. basis of your diet and then. carbohydrates on a kind of as needed. basis right if you're doing a lot of. weight training you're depleting.

glycogen Etc so that's where I think. there's a place for lower zeroc. carbohydrate diets um I tried carnivore. with the fruit and honey and all that. and I just could Gorge myself and Gorge. myself I didn't do well on that if I've. ever just done meat I actually feel. pretty good I confess but I'm an omore. so you Gorge yourself on fruit and honey. is that what you're doing so I've done. just meat and I felt pretty good to. great I mean you feel lighter you. definitely lose weight you're holding. less water I found it hard to train. really hard with the. weights and so I asked Paul saladino I.

said I want to bring in some rice and. oatmeal here CU I'm I'm suffering in the. gym and that's my I love working out and. he said well do fruit and honey in. addition to that so I added in Fruit non. pasturized cheese and honey the way they. do that and sorry Paul for me all it did. was just send my appetite through the. roof I was just like G ing myself with. cheese and fruit and meat all the time I. didn't feel well and I still couldn't. train well so for me what works best is. mostly quality proteins and quality fats. and I get some I eat a bit of butter and.

saturated fat but also carbohydrates. there is there any yeah is there any. evidence that rice is bad for you no so. I i' I judge things on you know. obviously on science but also on how I. feel after I eat them and when I eat. pasta I feel like I ate a brick I feel. like I ate like a how much I eat a lot. I'm a glutton I mean I like a big bowl. of spaghetti with like sausage and. meatball oh so good I love it lasagna I.

love it point is I don't feel like that. with rice when I have rice like say if I. have like a steak and some rice I eat. the rice and even I'll feel full I feel. good but I do not feel like oh I don't. feel terrible and it seems to give me. energy for workouts the problem that I. had with pure carnivore was that I work. out very hard and when I work out very. hard on pure carnivore I was struggling. I didn't like it when I added fruit. though I didn't have the same problem.

that you had um where it's like that's. like most of my diet like you know we're. talking like 90% 90% of my diet is just. meat and fruit that's 90% of my diet I. I'll eat a salad if I feel like eating a. salad I enjoy salads but I always make. sure that I'm only putting olive oil and. Bal IC vinegret that's all I use I don't. use like [ __ ] salad dressings cuz. they're all filled with seed oils and. sugar yeah it's all garbage it's like so. many people think they're eating well. and like my God you have 500 calories of.

[ __ ] nonsense on your salad that you. know and it's like it's not good for you. yeah you and I eat pretty similar um I. do eat rice oatmeal typically after I. train and in the evening I like some. carbohydrates for my meal because it. helps me sleep I've read things about. glyphosate and oatmeal and that um some. oatmeals have uh very high level of. glyphosate contamination or Shaina Swan. when like or phalates yes Phat. glyphosate's a different thing that's. round up yeah I think the nutrition you.

know I it's clear again I'm citing him a. lot because frankly he's like an. encyclopedia for this stuff and he can. call up meta analysis like nobody's. business you know Lane's made it very. clear by pointing out the data that. carbohydrates aren't going to disrupt. your ability to burn fat right it's. about keeping calories in calories in. calories out Lane is very specific about. that and I think he's absolutely right. you know there there's so many people. that have these ideas that if you eat. carnivore you burn fat because of no you.

eat less calories yeah you get satisfied. quicker you eat less calories well I I. have one idea that I'm hoping someone. will test which is when you're on a low. carbohydrate diet or you're doing. intermittent fasting one thing that's. very clear is that your adrenaline and. nor nor adrenaline epinephrine levels. are higher and one of the things that. you see is that people are more alert. and when they're more alert they move. more and that brings us back to neat. this non- exercise induc thermogenesis. as you said you eat a big bowl of pasta. and it tends to make you feel kind of. sedentary oh yeah whereas when you just. eat meat you can go go go yeah I I um.

ran into Jordan Peterson not that long. ago and you know he's really big he does. three Stakes a day and not just for his. age he he looks very fit and he feels. strong now I don't know what he's doing. in the realm of training I don't think. he lifts weights exactly so I don't. think he has to replenish glycogen the. same way many people do but I think for. people who are doing mostly. cardiovascular exercise some resistance. training I think he does some the the. carnivore thing may work very well um. but I think that also just being a. mobile moving person and you know this.

thing about neat was discovered because. they noted that people that were very. thin tend to move a lot it was a reverse. cor it was kind of correlation in both. directions whereas people who are larger. tend to be pretty sedentary and they. move slower I think the one of the best. examples online at least of someone. who's on a pure carnivore diet who's. very active is Shawn Baker oh yeah yeah. and Shan Baker is just I mean he. regularly posts his workouts he's 56. years old I mean he's doing heavy. deadlifts and he he holds world records.

for rowing I mean he's like a serious. power based athlete who only eats steak. that's all he eats he doesn't. incorporate organs he doesn't do. anything else I mean I don't know if. he's taking any vitamins or minerals but. I mean most of what that guy eats is. steak looks he looks super fit great. he's very fit I know a number of um uh. police officers and firefighters are. doing that now because a lot of their. job especially police officers is. sedentary and then it's go go go um and.

they they seem to like that there's a. study on intermittent fasting that was. done by sain pandas lab out of the sulk. on firefighters that because their. schedules are crazy and that being a. night owl and swing shifts is just. terrible reeks havoc on your metabolic. system I mean it's just one of the. quickest ways to make yourself ill but. we need shift workers right thank you. shift workers so the the the. intermittent fasting and these more. let's just call them elimination diets. where it's mainly carnivore really help. them those communities stay fitter and.

more active there's a guy on Instagram I. I don't I don't know his name but I love. his police post he has he shows yeah. amazing and he sometimes puts up this. post I love these ones I do see how. intense that job is and like wow and. then but he'll post like supplements and. it's a stake you know he's just all. about protein training and the job yeah. you know and other aspects of life he. keeps quiet um uh for good reason of. course but it's clear that for people. that need to be active or just or who. are sitting a ton that the carnivore. diet might be a great thing and now I'm.

not talking about the carnivore fruit. meat honey thing again apologies Paul. I'm not saying that's bad but these are. people are mainly just doing meat and. they just feel like their appetite is. more regular and cops you kind of see. it's a binary distribution they're. either really fit or they're really. unfit yeah and it and listen it's got to. be an incredibly hard job fire Fighters. the fitness part it seems a little bit. more aligned to like working out at the. station and things like that in any case. um they have a lot more downtime they. have a lot more downtime yeah yeah I.

think that um we were talking I think. last time we spoke about um. supplementation as it relates to you. know metabolic pathways and one thing. I've been tracking pretty closely is. this whole you know the NN thing has now. taken glad I was going to bring before. we wrap this up so uh yeah so um so. let's explain in mm for people it's. precursor for NAD plus right so um NAD. is critical to energy production in all. cells um vital um levels of NAD tend to. go down as we age um it's an absolute.

requirement for seller Health in life. you need it um some years ago as uh. davidon Clair came on this podcast and. um and discussed that his laboratory is. tene Professor of genetics Harvard. Medical School and other Laboratories. are starting to explore stimulating the. NAD pathway as a tool for extending. lifespan in mice and that there were. already some data from yeast um there. are now some clinical trials in humans. um you can't just take NAD or you can.

but it doesn't get into cells very. easily here I'm painting with a broad. brush but there are basically two ways. that you can tickle this pathway. increase NAD one is to take nmn right. some people just will try different B. vitamins but n MN which the idea is that. it gets into cells and it's converted. into n some people are more proponents. of taking. NR okay so which and the end product is. thought to be the same however there's a. lot of controversy about whether or not. NAD or NR or better NR is the what um.

was initially sold under the brand name. elisium with a unbelievable cast of. scientific advisers Nobel Prize winners. there a very East Coast oriented thing. but a colleague of mine right downstairs. for me at Stanford School of Medicine. who has a Nobel Prize for studying this. for discovering the structure of RNA. Roger cornberg his daddy discovered RNA. Arthur kenberg there was an there was. literally an ad of him holding a true. niagen bottle like this you know and. it's like okay I started paying. attention to this NR and nmn are taken.

in oral form in capsules some people are. giving NAD infusions out there this is a. more expensive Boutique thing but after. David started talking about nmn a lot of. people including myself started. experimenting with it now just to take a. step back I know a lot of people out. there like if there isn't a double blind. placebo controlled trial you know random. random trial then why would you ever. take something and then there are a lot. of people like David or me or a lot of. people out there who think well if there.

are some mouse data or something safe. why wouldn't I try right because when it. comes to longevity nobody wants to be in. the control group right it's like you. know so this is a highly contentious. field but then what's happened is um so. you can take nmn as a sugal powder or. which seems to be more effective nmn or. and okay that's there are people who. will argue NR there are there people. that take both I was taking both for a. while um how' you feel I felt like I had.

more energy now it's subjective it's an. N1 thing but I still take nmn. sublingually I take um I take a pretty. high dose so the recommendation was. anywhere from you know 500 milligrams to. about a gram and a half when you say. sublingually are you take a powder put. it under my tongue no how are you. getting this powder so should I tell you. how it was banned and how I'm still. getting it or I was buying I was buying. it you could buy it from renew by. science and now it's banned yeah I have. no relationship to renew by science but. now it's banned officially yeah so what. happened was this last year um a an.

something was sent to the FDA um there's. a company called Metro International. biotech sometimes just referred to as. metrobiotech this is a company that has. a trial they're. studying a something similar to nmn it's. a slight variation on nmn and. it's an experimental drug and the way. the FDA works is if something has been. is being explored as an experimental. potential prescription drug or. pharmaceutical compound it cannot be.

sold as a supplement so it's a question. of what went in first now this was this. happened a few years ago for something. called Knack naal cysteine yeah and. Knack is still available despite it. initially getting banned and I'll tell. you how it was rescued from that so what. it turns out that um Metro International. biotech is a company um that has a. pretty impressive Advisory Board leeway. Sai from MIT who I know Alzheimer's. researcher some other folks um David. Sinclair is is part of the company it's. either his company or he's certainly on. the head of the Advisory board or on The. Advisory Board that's what the website.

says so it's a there are a lot of people. that are a bit inflamed if you will. because this thing was popularized. through the discussion of nmn and its. potential virtues and then now it the. FDA sent out a ruling early this year. that supplement companies cannot sell it. many supplement companies responded to. that said okay we won't sell it other. companies such as renew by science we'll. see what happens after this podcast have. continued to sell it if you go on there. this morning you could buy NN so the FDA.

I want to buy some before this podcast. gets to air yeah I have a boatload I'll. give you some too and it's clean um yeah. so the the the bags of it are the best. way to go because you can buy it in. pretty high volume and the bags are. canisters um and I personally take. because I'll tell you the results that I. experienced which I really liked um I. take about two grams per morning under. my my tongue um definite increase. subjective feeling of increase in energy. and you believe the sublingual is the. way to go as opposed to taking it in. oral form and pills yeah and that's. because Atia who again Peter forgive me.

if I'm misspeaking here but AA does was. like there's no way that's going to get. into your cells taking it Taking his. capsules and I said what about. sublingual he's like I just don't see. how it could happen and um but it's get. it's been proven that it gets in through. IV right it gets in through IV and. they're also electr patches some NAD. patches I manage to stock up on those I. can send you some of those I have a huge. cash of those so this is a patch you put. on and slow release of n yeah it's got. two uh electrodes and you just put it.

yeah it's pretty it's good stuff that's. some robot [ __ ] so Lex fredman you know. who takes no supplements he lives on me. athletic greens element and mint tea you. know well those are all good element's a. good. supplement athletic greens is awesome. yeah so people are upset um because they. feel like they were turned on to this. stuff and then it it's now um so this. could soon be a prescription drug now. keep in mind that the r veratrol thing. was similar in the sense that there was.

a A variation on r veratrol that was. patented and sold to a company um and. that sort of didn't pan out or is still. a work in progress um and you can still. buy R veratrol it's not a problem. because it was different enough so the. FDA decided to let an Knack stay on the. market because many many people wrote. letters to the FDA saying this is. ridiculous this is a value and it was. out as a supplement you can't do that. what's the benefits of uh Knack uh Knack.

is again in these metabolic pathways for. metabolic Health uh this isn't my area. of expertise so I don't want I don't. want to talk out of turn here um and I. don't know the specific details of why. people are taking I don't take that so. part of the reason I think it's healthy. to have this conversation is to. understand how this stuff happens uh nmn. could soon be a prescription drug that. you can only get with a prescription and. then I think Metro International biotech. will likely hold the patent um if people.

are interested in certain compounds. remaining on Market they should. definitely write to the FDA the FDA as. much as that's a mysterious you know Big. Stone block kind of company very opaque. to us I think they listen when things. happen in large volume and so I'm. certainly going to write letters and I. think that keeping NN on the market as a. supplement would be wonderful for many. people that want to take it now the. folks who who are involved with NR. companies are delighted because for them. this is like again I'm not going to get.

into the debate of what's better NR andn. because I just don't have the expertise. to parse that there are other people. that better suited to do that but the. people that work on NR are thinking like. this is great like let this whole NN. thing pan out because it's a market. competition does NR have a shelf life. like does NR like if you like have a jar. of that stuff from a year ago is it. still good I have to imagine it is I I. didn't refrigerate my true nien um and I. was I liked true nien I experien the. same effects again I have no. relationship to that company they're on.

podcast Bond so they don't pay me a dime. Etc the problem is it's very expensive. to take the kind of dosages that I'm. taking and whereas with you think High. dosages are the way to go I do yeah why. is that I just didn't experience much of. a of an subjective effect at logo so. something like aium that's yeah. like how much you were you taken of that. I was getting up to a gram and a half. how many pills is that I was up to like. seven or eight pills I think I don't. quite recall but I will say with nmn a. couple of things happened first of all.

Rec energy my recovery from workouts. much better I had to take it early day. because it was giving me a lot of energy. and then I'm not into my nails and hair. frankly I not one of those when my hair. is start which is starting to go I'm. just going to let go but I did notice. like my hair and nails growing at a. ridiculous rate and then I came off it. just as a controll experiment slowed. down again so it was really interesting. I think there's something there in. seller growth Pathways interesting and I. didn't change anything else I was doing. blood work I still do blood work. regularly so you know is it going to. make me live longer I don't know but I.

don't know how I'm going the day I die I. won't know whether or not I would have. lived shorter or longer anyway yeah it's. like what how do you feel now is what's. important yeah so I I really like the. sublingual n there's some other talk. about the FDA making testosterone. something where you're going to have to. go to your doctor once a a month yeah. they don't want it by tella Health yeah. there's so I think I saw one of um was. it Chris Bel that something about this. um there are a lot of Click Click.

clinics as I call them online clinics. who are prescribing um testosterone at. whatever dosages that they deem are. appropriate for someone um based on. blood work I mean if you go to the. doctor you're basically going to get the. same blood work I don't once a month is. preposterous that people do not have the. time to go to a doctor once a month. that's that is very annoying well. originally what they wanted to do with. trt remember people were going in and. getting their full 200 milligrams. because it's typically testosterone. cypionate in this country 200 milligrams. per Mill which is you know one you know.

one syringe full if it's a 1 ml syringe. obviously people were getting that once. every two weeks and that's a crazy. dosage scheme you're supposed to the. best way we know is to divide it up. sublingually every three days is really. subcutaneous subc excuse me don't go. under the yeah don't do that there was. an oral version that they were working. on for a while there was an Al version. of testosterone well there are I mean. things like oxandrolone and and anavar. were always taken as pills but the liay. oh interesting it was a sublingual spray. there's the cream there's the dermal.

scrotal patches that gets weird but. subcutaneously every 3 days is supposed. to be the way to go yeah every other day. or every 3 days at a lower dose to. spread it out because because the testes. normally kick out somewhere between 7. and 15 milligrams of testosterone per. day so and you got two testies most. people anyway so most men I have two. testies obviously so what you're talking. about is 200 migs on one day and then. coming back two weeks later is crazy but. that was really serving the Physicians. well because you had to go in for a. clinic visit Etc but people would get.

these giant spikes and then the crash. and the conversion to estrogen from a. massive dose all at once a ridiculous. dose that you should never take and. sometimes and too big a dose can Crush. libido it's a mess it's so I think if. people are people need to be able to. self administer and all this ruling. would do frankly is send people into gry. Market routes that's all it would do. there's there's a like zero minus is. that going to happen I sure hope not I. sure hope not because I think the number.

of people that can afford to go to a. physician who's really good who's going. to dose it correctly is is so infant. tesly small and you know I'm I'm testost. is not particularly expensive but I'm. very sensitive to the idea that you know. a lot of the things that hold great. health benefits are just outside the. financial reach of a lot of people well. it will be outside the financial reach. if you're making people have a a. doctor's appointment once a month it's. crazy like you're going to have to pay. for that appointment unless there I mean. I don't imagine your insurance is going. to cover all of that no I think it's.

going to kick up the black market yeah. so right now I'm sure there are people. who are starting to stock up sypien 8 so. they can sell it it's it's it's sending. us back into the Dark Ages frankly of. that stuff so hopefully not um if if. someone tells me who to talk to or. petition you know as you can tell I'm. getting more vocal about stuff I also. feel safer nowadays to talk about things. than I did a few years ago cuz things. are becoming more commonplace mostly. because I have colleagues who contact me. and say like Hey how do I how do I get. on testosterone do I need testosterone. once they start getting older and they.

see you still looky yeah yeah psilocybin. testosterone so many different things. that are like very beneficial just look. at people that are healthy and happy. like what are they doing and then and. are they honest talk to them you know. and beautiful thing about a podcast is. people who are healthy and happy will. tell you this is what I do and this is. what you can do and this is the pros. this is the cons go to a doctor get. yourself checked out don't do it if. you're this don't do it if you're that. but there's. probably a great number of people that.

can benefit from these things yeah. absolutely and and I to say because we. were talking about n and David Sinclair. I mean he's going to know the Nuance. there I mean I don't know all the Nuance. haven't talked to him in a while but you. know I think he's definitely in the camp. of of people in science who are thinking. you know what's possible taking some. significant steps based on Mouse work. and and I do want to be fair to people. that do that right I do that too I I. mostly focus on human studies and human. stuff but there are many people out in.

the world that are interested in things. they can do for their health and they. know that if they're waiting for the. random controlled trial and huge numbers. of subjects and especially for people. with diseases in their family or that. have diseases like they're not. interested in waiting they don't want to. do anything sketchy or dangerous but. they're not interested in waiting so I. think David's you know he's really. driving certain things hard and some. people agree with him some people don't. but he's got a vision the one thing I. can say for sure about David is he's got. a vision and he's going for it yeah and.

um and there are you know this thing. about FDA controlling or non FDA. controlling I think it's vexing some. people um and it'll be interesting to. see how it goes but if you're interested. in keeping NN or anything on the market. write letters I know it sounds like a. it's like the high school thing like. write letters to your but in the absence. of those letters there's no chance of. things going the way you want in the. presence of those letters it's like one. letter you can type it and just email it. or email it five times you know and see. what see what happens okay well Andrew. it's always a treat having you on it's I.

have to process so much information I. have to listen this three or four times. after it's over but I appreciate you. very much and tell people about your. podcast where they can download it yeah. uh well thank you for having me on I I. always enjoy these conversations I. always learn from you and I really. appreciate you and your team I really do. uh the podcast is huberman lab um that's. how we so hubman lab.com you can find. all our episodes and they're linked out. in all the formats from there and then. wealth of information yeah you just. scroll it's sort of infinite scroll one. thing that we have that maybe I'll just.

mention is if you go to the menu and you. go to um newsletter uh we have a lot of. people don't have time to listen to the. whole podcast you can subscribe for free. we but if you scroll down I've got PDFs. of like deliberate heat exposure. protocols deliberate cold exposure you. don't have to sign up you can literally. just get the PDF and so there's no ask. here you can just get toolkit for sleep. and all that stuff with linkout that's. amazing you know because I do realize. that you know not everybody has you know. four and a half hours or two hours to. listen to all the details with a. notebook I would hope people would.

listen but anyway that's all there for. people and um so they can uh grab that. content if they want that's fantastic. I'm so glad you provide that that's. really really cool thanks so much man. appreciate you brother apprciate bye. everybody thank you. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].