Joe Rogan Experience #1951 - Coffeezilla

[Music]. by night. nice to meet you hey thanks a lot I. appreciate what you do what you do is a. very valuable service because you go so. deep on some of these scammers it's like. it's so important because there's so. many people that just they don't really. understand what's going like the FTX. thing for example the best one because I.

was so in the dark about this thing I. was like what is happening like what are. they doing try to break it down for us. like first of all. what is uh it's a crypto exchange right. so how does how does that work. so the first question is when you get in. when you learn about crypto you're like. it's this magic internet money magic how. do you get some of that how do you get. some of that magic internet money uh. well you have to go somewhere to buy it. and so it's a crypto exchange is where. you kind of go you put your. Fiat on your dollars or whatever Euros.

or whatever and you put it into this. crypto exchange they have a bank and. they work with that bank then they. exchange that money for some type of. crypto token there's a lot of different. tokens out there and explain tokens. because I don't understand tokens I know. there's crypto and there's tokens like. what is the difference between the two. yeah tokens like is the individual you. can think of currency right so it's like. the individual so Bitcoin is you have. Bitcoin then you have it's one of the. cryptocurrencies you have ethereum you.

have Dogecoin you have safe Moon you. have ftt which is what FTX was using as. their native token so a lot of these. guys you'll start a crypto exchange and. then you'll launch your own token that. people can invest in sort of like. they're investing almost in your crypto. exchange and so that was actually one of. the ways that FTX really perpetuated. their fraud I I can break it down how. much do you know about the FTX well. let's break it down for people that. don't know about it so let's do it so.

FTX was this uh crypto Exchange located. out in the Bahamas which is a great. place to put your why do they do it in. the Bahamas because it's unregulated so. the problem with doing stuff in the. United States. or you know some. something like Europe or something like. that is your you are subject to all. these regulations which require you to. be a little more careful oh those are. pesky yeah they're annoying so like like. the famous example is like coin bases in.

America and they have to file all these. forms they have to be they're a. regulated entity they're a publicly. traded company so they have to report. everything so if you're offshore you can. kind of not do any of that you can play. fast and loose and you know for some. people they think that's better they can. offer let's say like a hundred X. leverage like you have a dollar I'll let. you trade with a hundred dollars. and that's that's going to be like one. reason you come to my offshore exchange. because I can offer you more leverage. than the guys who are like you know. coinbase or something like that right so.

FTX launches let's start with who's Sam. bangman freda's he's kind of at the. center of all of this Sam begman freed. is this guy who comes he's the son of. two uh Harvard lawyers then he comes up. prep school he's kind of like. um built for Success right he goes to. MIT goes to Jane Street is this. quantitative Trader and then he goes. into the crypto space and he launches. FTX or he's very young right how old is. he I think he was he he is Young I'm not. maybe you can look that up Jamie 31.

um he launches Alameda research first. which is just like this trading firm. which basically the idea here is we have. some ideas we're going to raise a little. bit of money and we're going to do these. trades that are profitable in crypto so. the way he first made his money. was he did something where he bought uh. Bitcoin in uh the US and then he sold it. on these Japanese exchanges where it was. worth more. so this there he was uh arbitraging this.

difference in prices and then after he. made his money that way he launches FTX. in 2019. and that's a crypto platform. where honestly you can make a lot more. money than just with a trading firm. so FTX quickly skyrockets in popularity. they bring on people like Tom Brady to. promote it Larry David in the Super Bowl. they kind of get buy-in from all these. big sort of names and also reputable. people like BlackRock Sequoia Capital.

they all invest in this guy Kevin. O'Leary famously promoted it for like 18. million dollars they gave him 18 million. dollars to promote it he says he lost it. on the platform he says the 18 million. was on FTX or whatever and he never he. never got a dollar out of it but that. was what the deal was for so they were. paying everybody to promote this FTX. crypto exchange and the idea was is this. is the next uh the next big thing right. and this is where you're going to make.

money there was a lot of fear of missing. out or fomo in the in the markets at the. time you know everyone thought oh. cryptos. you have to get in now right because if. you get in now you're going to make some. money. and so people invested in FTX thinking. that this is going to be uh a safe. platform this kid is smarter than. everyone else he's the son of Harvard. lawyers we just sort of can't lose and. nobody paid attention to some of the red. flags that were going on until. ultimately was too late it turns out he.

was pilfering FTX the customer deposits. and was using it in Alameda research. which was his trading firm to try to. make extra money and he lost it and so. this is all because it's unregulated. like if he was doing this like coinbase. can't do this is that correct yeah. coinbase is much more heavily. scrutinized they actually have to file. uh with the SEC they have to say what. they have where they're putting their. money they're subject to more regulation. about like how they take care of. customer deposits one of the big things.

with FTX was they told people hey you. put your money with us we're not going. to touch it we're not going to move it. that's what FTX said in their terms of. service so one of the really uh big. problems was they actually weren't doing. that but nobody knew because nobody had. a look at their books like it was very. opaque nobody knew what was going on but. behind the scenes so even though they. said like we're not going to touch your. money. as soon as you deposited Bitcoin I'm. going to talk to some of the Insiders at. Alameda they said they had this uh back. door system to where they could see you.

Joe deposit a Bitcoin on FTX they could. grab that Bitcoin and start trading with. it immediately. wow even though they were never supposed. to be able to touch your money obviously. that was the whole point it's like you. deposit with us we're not going to do. anything with your money it's your money. it's like a deposit like we're it's. almost like a bank like you deposit with. a bank your bank uh isn't supposed to go. ahead and take your money and go start. trading with it unless you know. obviously we have FDIC Insurance stuff. like that but like they didn't have that. they had they just take your money go. trade with it and that's where the. disaster started I really enjoyed you.

catching him on Twitter spaces I really. enjoyed that I listened to the whole. thing because because before that you. have this guy who's this. you know whiz kid who you listen to him. talk he has an answer for everything. he's so articulate he's so knowledgeable. like I listened to previous interviews. before he got busted and then when you. have them on there's a lot of. um I I wasn't aware uh I'm not sure uh I.

don't I'm not aware of that I don't know. there was all this Heming and Han and a. lot of ums and Oz and and you just kept. on them it was amazing that he first of. all it was amazing that he felt like he. could do something like that like why. would he publicly communicate this is. one of the. this is why it's so interesting to me to. look at fraud like this is why it. fascinates me as well as I think it's an. important thing to expose but like I'm. interested in the characters.

who perpetuate fraud because they're. such interesting psychological case. studies Sam bankman freed you could. probably write a whole book about the. fact that this guy he got away with. lying so long and perpetuating this. image of himself as this generous. billionaire you know he's sort of the. next Warren Buffett that when everything. goes wrong. he thinks he can re-establish control. because he's so smart he is such a good. liar that he's like I can just lie my. way out of it so I think that's why he. ultimately talked his idea was. if I lied my way into it I can sort of.

lie my way out of it and this is what he. did so I. prior to this I'd interviewed him twice. before and I had kind of gotten. hamstrung with uh like you know he's. just so good at dodging stuff you could. interview him before the Scandal. no not before the Scandal so it's like. as it was going down as it was going. down he goes on all these Twitter spaces. he doesn't want to he's doing interviews. with everybody I ask him. and uh he doesn't want to talk to me so. he but he's going on these Twitter. spaces so I keep I like was tracking. when he'd go on a Twitter space and I.

would contact the people ahead of time. and said hey at the end when you're like. ready for this thing to go down because. I know as soon as I get on it's going to. end pretty quickly after I said let me. on let me ask him some real hard. questions because all these guys are. like Sam you know we appreciate your. transparency kind of kissing up a little. bit but I was just like somebody has to. ask him some real questions so I had two. prior little Twitter space interactions. with him and he kept getting away with. the fact that he blamed all the. wrongdoing of FTX on Alameda research.

and he said I don't control Alameda. research even though he was the owner. he's no longer the CEO as of 2020. he. hands it to this uh. a girl he actually had a relationship. with Caroline Ellison right and. she supposedly controlled it he said she. did everything I don't have access to. the book like I basically knew nothing. so anytime you'd call him out on an. issue you'd say where's the money he. goes well it's. I don't know it's gone it's Alameda. research ask Alameda so by the third. interview I had studied him and I said.

okay how do we get down to. ftx's responsibility in this whole thing. and I kept coming back to it was the. terms of service that said. you cannot move like when I deposit with. you you're not going to touch my money. and he said Sam if that's true where's. the money of all these people you. there's no there's no ethereum left. there's no Bitcoin left you don't have. the real tokens anymore you just have. your sort of nonsense uh ftt Tokens The. Tokens you invented. and he said oh uh well you know there.

were some margin trading accounts and. I'm like no but there were people who. didn't trade with margin there are. people who just put their money with you. and they all they wanted was they wanted. to store some Bitcoin with Tom Brady. they wanted to be alongside Tom Brady so. he's like well uh well. you know there was fungibility between. wallets. and it's like well what's fungibility. mean it means. whether you were a guy withdrawing Who.

had who is this degenerate day trader or. you were a grandma with who just put one. Bitcoin on there or you know more likely. the grandson. he treated all the accounts the same so. when everyone came running for the money. they just withdrew until nothing was. left and ultimately because they had. lost billions of dollars it left. billions of dollars in credit claims. basically they didn't have the money and. so now it's trying to be sorted out by. the guy who literally unraveled Enron.

and he says this lawyer this lawyer goes. it's worse than Enron. I watched the CEO the new CEO talk about. it yeah about him trying that's John Ray. yeah yeah trying to unravel it and it's. amazing it's amazing that things with. this amount of money can get this far. sideways before anyone knows what's. going on. which is the problem with offshore uh. offshore accounts and stuff like.

actually his whole technique of Shifting. the blame like onto Alameda and like I. don't control Alameda I've seen. something very similar I'm investigating. this Ponzi scheme that's offshore and. like one of the first things the guy. does is he controls it but he renounces. ownership he goes oh I'm passing it off. to some sham director and he goes I. don't have anything to do I don't know. where's the money I don't know but he. controls everything. and so it's like this is the this is the. tactic of these offshore companies is. like you put the right people in charge.

who are going to take the fall you. resign and then you blame it on them. later when everything goes wrong his. problem though is Caroline Ellison. flipped on him so she definitely flipped. off she was smart yeah yeah she she. cooperated that uh her and I believe. Gary Wang were big Executives they're. cooperating they pled guilty they're. cooperating with the feds I mean they. did the smart thing which is something. like this happens you shut up you don't. say anything right and then you point at. your boss I mean that's basically what. they did.

which they for sure did stuff wrong too. you did not get to that level and not. know that things were wrong well reading. her tweets about amphetamine use was. pretty wild too the whole scene was wild. the fact that they were all living. together and [ __ ] each other in this. giant Penthouse this 40 billion dollar. Penthouse the the things it's insane. it's really I almost wish it wasn't a. scam I've said this before because I was. I was kind of I root for nerds to like.

be that successful that you just. completely living outside the Norms of. society just [ __ ] each other on. amphetamines and making billions of. dollars like it sounds like a a great. story if it wasn't illegitimate. yeah that's I mean ultimately that's the. problem like Sam was just hopped up on. amphetamines playing League of Legends. while an investor goals like at the time. that was seen as the as this charming. like yes. she calls on calls you could hear even. actually okay so this is funny.

they found his League of Legends account. and during some of the calls after it. was a fraud they could you could hear. him clicking in the background click. click. he's playing League like they tracked. his account he's playing League while on. calls about the failure of FTX. just imagine the arrogance is that. arrogance or is it just pure addiction. I think you know those multiplayer games. those you know online role-playing games. that's that is right it's like it's uh I.

think it's a. is it a MOBA I used to play I used to. play like a variant of league so I I. know I know it's fun but but it's not. like fun to the point look this guy's. whole thing was like on this effective. altruist. um yeah I'm this guy who's gonna. maximize good in the world you know and. that was his reason for working all the. time and that's the justification for to. be hopped upon amphetamines it's like. maximize productivity maximize human. happiness you can't do that and then say. oops I played a little too much of my. video games and lost billions of dollars. like this doesn't fly well he wasn't.

saying that I played the video games. yeah that's why I lost the money but but. after the fact he's like loot like he's. still playing video games and you're. like can you have the decency to get off. the video game and talk to people. so bizarre it's it's just so bizarre. that so many people got duped and I felt. the same way about Bernie Madoff you. know I'm not a of financially aware. person I'm not I'm not into the market I. don't I don't follow these things so. when I see something like that go down. I'm like how did he get Steven Spielberg.

you know how does someone like a Bernie. Madoff or uh Sam bankman freed how does. he. get these people to do this and then the. FTX case how much of it was getting. celebrities to endorse the platform it's. huge this is what I wanted to say like. the more I study this stuff and you. start to have repeat occurrences like I. just cover stuff all the time and you. see Echoes of the same thing I just had. somebody just a couple days ago I was. interviewing for this for this news. scheme we're looking at it and he said.

you know I never understood how Bernie. Madoff got people because it seems so. Preposterous and then I fell for. something very similar and what I. noticed with all of these things the. threat is you believe you know it's kind. of too good to be true but the social. proof is overwhelming and it overwhelms. your kind of like alarm Bells so the. social proof is a combination of things. so first of all it's like it's this guy. who drives a Toyota so you go like well. why does he need to scam me if he's. driving a Toyota right. then it's like uh which is Sam bankman.

free did then it's like okay Tom Brady. backs him well Tom Brady's got to have. some guys who are looking into this and. then it's like well BlackRock backed him. well BlackRock definitely has some guys. who looked into it right it's Sequoia. Capital they said he was uh might be one. of the first like trillionaires or. whatever like like he's such a great. entrepreneur they think he's such a. genius I actually it might have been uh. one of the a1z guys or uh uh I'm. blanking on the name right now but a1z. what is that no no I'm sorry uh I'm.

blanking on it's this famous I've got to. remember it right after I get out of. here it's one of the famous. um like uh investment funds. they invested in a bunch of nft projects. Mark and reason I think. is the guy who runs it. um. Jamie's looking it up I thought I knew. it off top my head and now I don't want. to say the wrong one a16z a16 a1z a16z I.

can't it was one of those Sequoia a616z. one of them wrote this glowing review of. Sam basically saying he's going to be. one of the first trillionaires. um so all these guys basically a lot of. these people backed Sam with the highest. endorsements and so if you're just an. average person you're thinking well how. much more due diligence can I do than. all these other guys all these other. guys buy into him right and like and. then they themselves are kind of also. looking at each other being like well. that guy did it like why it's the.

hottest deal around right uh Kevin. O'Leary's in so so you kind of think. you're swimming safely with like other. Savvy investors. and that's what ultimately gets you to. buy in Bernie Madoff is very similar I. mean he was uh you know really well. regarded in Wall Street so when people. invested with him they didn't they knew. the like returns were insane but it. wasn't like he was some random. fly-by-night guy he was well respected. in the Wall Street space people thought. he might take over the SEC after like.

the current person had stepped out they. thought he was going to take it over. like he's one of the leaders at the. NASDAQ I mean he was one of the go-to. guys and so you thought well I invest. with Bernie like I can't lose it's like. almost you know betting on the house. like if The House Always Wins right so. when FTX was taking off it just seemed. like everyone who was a someone was. backing him. so then it was okay and then I think a. lot of these people deferred to their. other friends. they're all saying it's okay let me put.

money in and it's just a huge case study. that just because other people fall for. something doesn't mean you're safe like. you have to do. I hate to say do your own research. because that's something you overused. like scammy phrase It's actually such. like a phrase like that you know it's. almost let me say this if it's too good. to be true if they're offering market. returns that you want to believe in you. go man I want to believe this is real. don't invest like that's a bad idea.

people were calling [ __ ] though just. like they were calling there were there. was a few people that were wary that. were calling [ __ ] on Bernie Madoff. and there was there was a few people. that were standing out and saying this. none of this makes sense right. and who were those people. so there were a few people. um there was. a Matt Levine interview with uh Sam. begman for he didn't call him a fraud. outright but he's like hey it seems like. you're in the Ponzi business and. business is good.

whoa and what did he say to that he's. like well you know like think of it like. a box and you know you tell a bunch of. investors you know hey if you put money. in this box we can get some money out we. can give you this yield he starts to. explain like this thing that sounds. exactly like a Ponzi scheme and so. ultimately Matt Levine's like uh yeah. this doesn't really make a lot of sense. but again it stopped short of this is a. fraud because you know no one knew. there's a bunch of backing so I made a.

video at the time being like this crypto. CEO just. describes a Ponzi scheme and that video. has aged so well because it's like. people like oh it was all true. um but like but people were outright. calling it a fraud like Mark cohotis. he's a famous short seller. um he was calling that a fraud early I. have a buddy of mine. um he goes by Dirty Bubble media on. Twitter he's like one of the Anon. Twitter accounts he was calling it a. fraud you know there were things that. were coming out like questions about you.

know okay they say they have all this. money where where on chain is it so like. the blockchain everything's publicly you. can see it right it's all at some. address and so people were asking like. where's you say you have all this. Bitcoin where's the Bitcoin you say you. have all this ethereum where's the. ethereum. and why is why is so much of your. balance sheet made up of your own tokens. it's a big question. so one of the things that FTX had done. and a lot of companies were doing at the.

time but FTX was sort of the worst. offender is. let's say I give you a like let's say I. give you a loan Joe so an unsecured loan. would be I give you a million dollars. and I don't ask for anything so if you. default on that loan I'm out of out a. million another way is I ask for okay. I'll take some equity in the studio if. something goes wrong right so I cover my. butt if if you default on it now this is. what was going on in crypto they're. called collateralized loans but what FTX. was doing was they were saying hey like.

we'll take a million dollars from you. but instead of giving you collateral. like dollars or like or like a like some. asset will give you ftt tokens which is. their own invented coin and that should. have value if anything goes wrong and. people were accepting that as value but. the problem is. when at the exact moment FTX can't pay. you back is the exact moment that ftt. becomes worthless so you think you have. all this collateral you think you have. this backstop because on the books it's. worth you know X dollars let's say it's.

like worth five dollars a coin but what. you're not realizing is the real risk is. when FTX can't pay you back they. probably can't pay anyone back everyone. loses confidence everyone sells their. ftt tokens no one wants to buy it it's. worth nothing so how did this all Fall. Apart. great question so it's really. interesting because it was like a battle. between FTX and one of their competitors. binance so uh the the owner of binance. is I think it's Ching ping Zao uh he. goes by CZ on Twitter I probably. butchered his name but he was actually.

originally sort of an ally of Sam so he. invested in FTX early on put 100 million. in and eventually got paid out like two. billion dollars well yeah some of it was. in this ftt token though so they have a. bunch of ftt right and so it's like. November was when all this stuff went. down and a report comes out from. coindesk where it shows ftx's balance. sheet it shows actually what tokens they. have you know for one of the first times.

it was kind of really everyone got to. look at it all at once in one place and. people notice like wait a second a lot. of their assets are just their own. tokens like they had a CRM token which. they controlled most of ftt so it looks. like if you just look at their assets it. looks like they're covering their. liabilities they owe customers 10. billion looks like they have 10 billion. but like most of this 10 billion is just. their own tokens. so. CZ takes this opportunity to kind of.

spread some you know sort of uh. information about that he says hey we're. actually going to sell most of our ftt. that we got from that deal and we're. going to sell it we don't know if we. don't know what's going on there and all. of a sudden it starts this Firestorm. because people like there's already all. this worry in the past that summer there. had been a bunch of companies that. collapsed and people had never thought. FTX it was kind of the first time anyone. thought FTX could maybe not have the. money so CZ says hey maybe they don't. have the money I don't know whatever I'm. just going to sell some sell like two.

billion dollars worth or but he knew. what he was doing. pretty sure he's a shark he knows what. he's doing what was the conflict between. the two of them that led him to do that. the conflict wise it's a great question. the conflict was ultimately that uh Sam. was trying to get some regulations. passed and he knew every all the crypto. people were trying to control. regulations to favor their individual. business situation and so CZ felt like. he was being cut out in Washington and I. think there was like a tweet from Sam.

saying like oh like I'll see you the. next time you're in Washington or. something like that but like it was kind. of a dig because he knows CZ can't go to. Washington like he's a he would be he'd. be afraid of being indicted or I don't. really understand why he can't go but he. can't go to America so Sam was meeting. with Regulators CZ felt cut out like he. was basically going to get a bad deal. with Regulators they were all trying to. Sam was working really closely with. Regulators to try to get regulations. passed and CZ felt like he was cut out. so that stirred up this like battle.

between them and ultimately Sam goes oh. you won like our battle. and people were like you know is it a. battle when you lose billions of dollars. of customer money like well how can you. view this as a battle. like but he viewed it as like we're. sparring partners like and you won this. round or you won the war because he. thinks this is going to go on forever. I initially he thought he was going to. be able to figure out a way to pull the. the company's assets together and I.

think make everybody sound and repay. everyone and go back to making money. again I don't think he thought he would. repay everyone but everyone thought like. oh we'll just enter chapter 11. bankruptcy we'll restructure the company. we'll reopen we'll uh we'll just turn. all the debt into new FDT tokens and pay. everybody out. oh. that's what he thought. he's on amphetamines right so you can't. be thinking totally clearly and probably. overly confident yeah it's it's pretty.

clear he didn't see like the full scope. of the situation especially at first. um it seemed like he thought you know he. was like saying FTX us was fine and then. FTX us went bankrupt and he's the one. who put it into bankruptcy and then he's. telling everyone oh no no the money's. actually still there I mean he was. constantly giving a conflicting. Narrative of what's was going on now. he's still like trying to say he did. nothing wrong. um he he maintains he's innocent and. right now actually the big like kind of.

Scandal now is they're finding a bunch. of campaign Finance violations because. he was trying to influence politics U.S. politics I mean it's it's insane how. deep ftx's influence went from the. Bahamas reaching into the United States. well technically. not really being regulated by the United. States yeah they were the number two. donor to the Democratic party that's. right but also to the Republicans this. is what's Wild so yeah Sam knew publicly.

in our current American climate like. it's kind of like okay it's a little bit. Chic to be donating to Democrats you can. do that without too much you know. negative press but if I'm the number. three donor to the Republican party. that's going to be a bad look so he. decides to donate dark to a republican. like to Republicans and part of the. accusation is he knowingly did this. through one of his uh Executives Ryan. salami or some I think that's his last. name uh salami I don't know just don't.

know how to pronounce it but he was like. yeah the number three donor to the. Republican party but it was all. orchestrated through Sam Sam wanted to. basically influence politics by just. donating donating donating and the idea. is you donate to both sides you can. never lose right yeah if you have your. your hands in both Pockets but publicly. he's just like he's donating to. Democrats because he says oh I'm like. this like you know I care about all. these issues yeah but it's like even. more cynical than just buying one party. is buying both live lying about it so.

that you can get all the good press of. like caring about all these social. issues while also not caring at all. and ultimately one of the ways like even. some of the the candidates they donated. to were through like a third employee we. didn't even know about and they were. like donating through them for like all. these um lgbtq plus uh causes and it was. through a guy and the guy was like I. feel a little uncomfortable with this. and they said well we don't have anyone. trustworthy at FTX we can donate through.

who's gay so like can you can you do. this. so someone had to be gay to do it like. no they no basically they were like we. need someone trustworthy we can trust to. do this so hey you're going to be the. guy like we're just going to do a few. transactions through your name that just. came out in a press release it's the new. charges he was basically like a they. call him straw donors because it's like. if I give money to you to give money to. a politician on my behalf you're a straw. donor you're not really a donor so. Alameda was using customer funds to pay.

off politicians in order to try to get. favorable regulation for. I guess offshore crypto exchanges right. and so these campaign Finance these. these violations like what exactly like. what what's what are the regulations in. terms of like what you're allowed to do. and donate and how do you violate them. so I think I think the big violation was. you're not supposed to like if you're. Alameda research and you're funneling.

money through. a personal investor. that I think is the problem they're. actually campaign Finance laws I've. heard are pretty weak I forget the name. of the law but it was passed in like the. early 2000s uh 2010s maybe where it. actually became very easy to donate dark. where it's like you can donate through. super Pacs political action committees. and you can donate as much as you want. and you don't have to be your name has. to appear nowhere and so that's actually. what he said in one of the interviews he.

goes No One Believes Me When I said I. donated dark because No One Believes. anyone would be like everyone wants the. credit for donating No One Believes that. I just do it on the sly and that that's. ultimately what he was doing but it also. looks like he was donating through some. of his Executives and. I mean the whole thing was shady all the. way down like I so it the person's not. named in the report who is donating to. um Democrats we know the One Republic. donating to Republicans was Ryan salami. but.

that person eventually said well hey can. we restructure all this money that went. through me like a loan so that we can. you know say that I took a loan out I. was donating so we didn't file any laws. they never ended up doing that but like. it was very clear the internal. conversations were they knew they were. committing fraud they knew they were. doing things wrong and this idea was. well no one's going to catch us right. nobody's ultimately going to find out. um what we're doing here. how many more of these are out there in.

the world. as big as FTX uh we don't know I mean. there's only a few that are bigger like. there's binance. very opaque company we don't exactly. know and what has happened to binance. since F TX went down because it seems. like they received. additional scrutiny right because now. people are starting to look at it and I. saw that their value went down. considerably yeah Elizabeth Warren uh. wrote a letter to them they're they're.

being looked at much more closely I mean. ultimately. all of these things are so opaque in the. sense that you can know their assets so. it's like a big thing recently in crypto. they'll say hey we're going to show you. proof of reserves what does that mean. they mean we'll show you on chain all. our assets you can check yourself like I. have a billion dollars in usdc well. that's great. but it doesn't matter if I have a. billion dollars in crypto Bitcoin. whatever if I owe two billion dollars.

right that's what ultimately matters is. how much do you have on deposits that. you owe out and so with binance we don't. really know the only one we have a. little bit more of a look into is. coinbase it seems like there are you. know legitimate but um oh. so much of the problem with crypto is we. don't know how much of this stuff is. money laundering we don't know how much. of this stuff is like outright the. proceeds of criminals I mean we know. that these criminals do launder their. money through a lot of these crypto. exchanges uh through mixers it's just.

sort of this big mess right now and. we're waiting for Regulators to figure. it out finally Regulators have stepped. on the scene but. um you know right now it's just this. kind of wild wild west of you're just. having to trust these Shady offshore. entities that they're telling the truth. binance says they're fine they show. proof of reserves but what are their. liabilities you know it's hard to know. um so people really just take you at.

face value and they they have to trust. that like oh other people are invested. so I guess I'll jump into and that's why. the celebrities are important and that's. why a huge part of it the connection of. black rock is important huge part yes. because they're the legitimacy that says. Hey I'm you know I too am safe because. Tom Brady's got his money there so is. the lure is like how Bitcoin used to be. worth very little and then one time it. was with the high of Bitcoin was like 70.

000 or something 60 plus yeah yeah so. that's the lore the law is you buy in. for pennies and one day you're insanely. Rich I'm sure you know about that one. guy who lost a hard drive and who's uh. paying people to go through a landfill. yeah to try to find his hard drive. because there's billions of dollars. worth of bitcoin on that hard drive yeah. people lose people lose their crypto. Keys all the time I mean. it's kind of an interesting. idea. where you go I'm gonna get in before. everyone else but a lot of people found.

out about crypto at the same time the. mainstream media everyone else did so by. the time they're actually investing it's. too late it's it's too late. um I think the like most Fair case you. could make about crypto is. sometimes National currencies aren't a. great idea and you want an alternative. so like look at the Turkish lira right. the inflation rate I think is like 75 or. something like that like it's like it's. an unimaginable it's just out of control.

inflation and if you hold on to your. Turkish lira you're in for a bad time. because every day it's getting less. valuable. so the question is. what do you do if you're in that country. making money if you want to store your. money somewhere else how do you store it. so there's this idea of like these. alternative currencies that are kind of. interesting. um and then there's some arguments that. like hey if you're someone like me I. have. um two employees and both of them are.

overseas like one of them's in London. one of them's in Ukraine and so for me I. have to pay them and you know I have to. do this wire transfer and it's kind of. expensive to do these like you pay all. these fees for wire transfers so the. idea is like okay well if you have. crypto those wired fees can go down and. instead of taking you know maybe a day. or something it'll take like five. minutes or three minutes so so. I don't want to give off the idea that. like there's nothing here but the. problem is is that. with the lack of Regulation and the.

ability to send peer-to-peer which means. like you and I can just send money to. each other directly no Middleman. there's also a really huge opportunity. for fraud scams and basically like you. know Shell Shell games where you're. hiding the money yeah you're saying oh. invest in this this is going to become. valuable later but you actually own a. bunch of that token then you sell it off. and then the price plummets so you. thought you had a bunch of money but. actually it's worth nothing like there's. all these new scams that have emerged as. a result of people getting interested in.

this idea of an alternative money system. um. I mean yeah especially in our Modern Age. I mean it seems like you can understand. where they're coming from the average. person they're like look I've been. screwed by the Banks every time that the. government's printing a bunch of money. where do I go right you can understand. the appeal but it's just like you went. from the. you know the arms of one huckster to.

another like it's just like it's just. like it almost does something worth. worse. um there are reasons that our banks have. a bunch of anti-money laundering laws. there's a reason that they have all. sorts of Finance laws it's not for it's. not for their safety it's for your. safety I mean it's like they need to you. know fight like one of the best ways to. fight crime is at their wallets like you. know like take away their Banking and uh. crypto has just really revitalized that. because you know now if you're if you're. some criminal laundering money has just.

never been easier. [Music]. instead of taking a hundred thousand. dollars across the border or wiring it. where it can get held up by a bank now I. can just send you 100K it's gonna take. me five minutes so that's why when. people like uh kidnap people's data and. things along those lines they they'd. like to get paid through crypto. ransomware yes yeah yes a hundred. percent because before it was like okay. you need to use like Western Union or. sort of one of these like these places. where you can kind of send money without.

too much scrutiny but even Western Union. has been kind of they've been getting. kind of pinched a little bit like hey. you guys got to stop allowing all of. this but in crypto there's there because. there's no middleman because there's no. one who controls. uh like Bitcoin like no one can say like. no to a transaction. now it's like there's there's nothing to. stop you from sending that money and. then and then you can take that money. and you can send it to what's called a. mixer. which is uh this like fancy language for. for a way to like anonymize your.

transaction like you put it you put a. hundred thousand dollars into this. little mixer and then it sends a hundred. thousand dollars out later and nobody. knows where that money came from what is. a mixer how does that work it's. interesting so the most famous example. is tornado cash they've recently been uh. shut down but. the idea what just the idea of putting. your money into tornado cash yeah it's. wild is there a better analogy for. losing your house. you know it's funny yeah.

you know I mean good Lord the idea of. these mixers was you'd anonymize your. transactions so like uh let's say I put. like one let's say I have ethereum one. of one ether into this mixer right this. pool of money. a bunch of people are putting one. ethereum into this thing so all this. money's going in and then you basically. wait and as you're waiting ethereum's. going out everywhere a bunch of people. are withdrawing right because they're. also taking their money out right by the. time you withdraw there's nothing tying.

your ethereum to your particular address. to like this random external address. because you you send it to a different. one so before it's like if I send you a. dollar and then you send that Dollar on. we can easily Trace that back to me. right it's like here here but if I send. a dollar to you and everyone's sending. you a dollar and then you're sending a. dollar to all these other wallets that. it's impossible to know which of those. new wallets my dollars from.

that these uh basically nerds and. cryptography thought of which is it's. all it's brilliant I mean it is. brilliant because it is basically it's. almost impossible to trace. But ultimately the outcome of that is. like yeah I encrypt all your data Joe. send me I know you're you're the. successful podcaster I want you to send. me 10 million dollars or your date is. lost forever and you're like call the. call the police and you go hey track. this guy and they're like to what.

um to a Bitcoin wallet to uh ethereum on. what what are we tracking here and then. it goes to some mixer somewhere and then. we don't know where it goes after that. so when Sam Bank from freed was working. with Regulators when he was trying to. impose regulations or encourage. regulations how could that have. benefited him as opposed to binance like. what what could they have possibly done. to make it easier or more profitable for. him like why would he do that I'm not as.

familiar with the regulation side of. things people were talking about that a. lot. um what I know is everyone's always. interested in pulling up the ladder. after them and like building the kind of. the rule book around like hey like if. you're from this certain jurisdiction. that we're a part of you're fine if. you're not like if you're from this one. you're not okay or I might say hey like. CZ has connections to China like maybe. that's a problem or CZ has a connections. to here maybe that's a big deal but I'm. from the Bahamas and I'm American so to.

that might be fine I mean everyone's. always interested in the regulations. benefiting them the the challenge now. though is you know a lot of people had. backed that bill and uh. now that it was all a fraud or the guy. who basically pushed it was a fraud now. they're like trying to retool it and. it's like sort of what's left after the. guy who kind of was spearheading this. bill like was a fraud it's it's kind of. tough I um.

I was actually randomly like some. Senator's office reached out to me and. they're like what do you think about. this and I was like I don't know man you. guys have to this is this is y'all's. thing to figure out ultimately y'all. have to. um. my feeling is offshore entities should. not be. they're not subject to our rules how can. you allow offshore like yeah I don't. know I don't know it's very strange and. these offshore entities were also using. like U.S branches like there's FTX us.

which was like more regulated but not. really that regulated it's it's a little. it's a strange time man to be uh to be. covering crypto because I tried to tell. people for years. that this scam problem this fraud. problem was going to undo. sort of everything like if you don't. root out the scams you don't find ways. to solve that this is never going to. work because if you're great the money. system has to be safe like your grandma. has to be able to charge back her credit.

card when there's a fraudster right like. or this whole thing doesn't work you. can't rely on people being technically. Savvy in order to uh you know make. something work if it's going to go to. the public you have to solve all these. issues and unfortunately we saw crypto. kind of go mainstream before they had. really taken that I mean maybe some of. them were taking it seriously but not. enough. so if. FTX didn't encourage regulation and CZ. didn't get upset at that and sell off.

all his tokens would they be. still solvent today or still in. operation today would they not crash or. was this inevitable it's inevitable so. something to understand. FTX was insolvent long before it was. realized that they were insolvent. right so that's the issue was ftx's. problem was not CZ ultimately he's kind. of the guy who like.

pushed over the you know the house made. on sticks or something like it was never. the problem was the foundation was wrong. from the beginning if you don't have. enough deposits to cover withdrawals you. just don't have the money right. your your issue is that anytime there's. demand for withdrawals you're going to. encounter problems so the it was going. to be inevitable anytime any story broke. that showed that maybe they're not as. healthy as they should be there would. have been a run on the banks and people.

would have found out it's just like when. are they going to find out it just he. happened to be the final straw if that. makes sense so someone would have. figured it out and someone would have. started dumping their coin yeah people. already I mean even leading up like CZ. gets a lot of the credit for it but like. already like a day before uh myself they. kind of shut down myself and some other. people were saying like we think they're. insolvent because we had taken a look at. their numbers and we said there's no way. they have the money for this they don't. have the tokens so we were warning.

people hey this is probably insolving. get your money out but CZ ultimately was. the big like he was the most notorious. and like uh well-respected person in the. space to where people thought okay well. if he's saying it you know he's a guy. who only says positive things about. crypto because he's a crypto you know. executive so if he's saying there might. be problems there's probably some. problems but binance hasn't had similar. problems no they've had a few runs and. they've covered withdrawals I mean so. it's just it's the problem is a lot of. it's a black box I mean so it's like.

things are good for now yeah you don't. know that was the problem with uh with. the. FTX like they had hidden all their. numbers like. that Sam had literally had a 10 billion. dollar. account that he mislabeled with Alameda. research. Miss label yeah he said he called it. Fiat FTX. but it was a 10 billion dollar hole what. is what do you mean by mislabeled well.

it's on a spreadsheet Joe so he he was. on us put it on a spreadsheet for their. balance sheet and he mislabeled the. account. Fiat at FTX and so what prosecutors are. now arguing is he knew of course what it. was he deliberately uh obscured what. that was to hide it from people who were. trying to take a look at his books but. it's just that's what I mean by Black. Box you never know what games these guys. are playing like they say oh here's sort. of like the rough estimate of our. balances but oops did I tell you about. this 10 billion dollar account like I.

forgot true. it's so silly it's yeah. you find out like there were just no. adults in that room and like the few. adults that there were were like you. know they had like a criminal lawyer uh. well anyway I I don't think he's. actually been convicted of anything I. shouldn't say that they had this guy. Daniel Friedberg Shady Shady this guy. allegedly [ __ ] Dan Friedberg no he's. definitely Shady I'll say that what was. his I remember but what was his his. whole thing was he he did this thing.

with ultimate bet so he was uh one of. the lawyers so there's this poker site. called ultimate bet and he got caught in. this Scandal where they had enabled this. thing called God mode on Ultimate bet. where the the CEO could see everybody's. hands and play on the site seeing. everybody's hands so he just he cleaned. up on all his own like his own uh. customers just basically taking their. money like I know exactly when the fold. I know exactly when to bet.

so he had god mode enabled and then they. found out somebody found out about this. God mode and so the lawyers like how do. we basically cover this up Dan. friedberg's like how do we you know uh. you know what do you want me to do and. he's like hey just make this problem go. away. this is the CEO like go blame it on. somebody else go blame it on some like. you know third party that got access to. our our website so it was like a glitch. or something and so that that is the. experience of the lawyer that FTX then. hires is like being complicit on a.

private call leaked private call trying. to cover up this God mode scam. that is his background and so I asked. you know Sam I was like you know what. does it say if this is your Chief. regulatory officer. this guy who enabled God or who helped. cover up god mode and he's like well I. don't want to comment on other you know. people or it's just like well how does. he skate on that like how how does a guy. like that not wind up getting indicted.

I ask myself that every day. so many so is it a matter of time or is. it he's gotten away with it so many of. these scams are like these issues of. either Regulators not having time not. having the resources not having sort of. like it's maybe not big enough. um you know. they're good people a lot of the people. going after these guys but it's like. it's like trying to catch everyone who's.

speeding you know what I mean right it's. like people get away with it it's just. there's too many people doing it you'll. catch some people but ultimately a lot. of people will just basically skate by. even though by All rights they should. have been you know caught in my view. what he did was criminal that's why I. started but it is it hasn't been. prosecuted or anything like that. um but he's on a leaked private call. everyone can go listen to it yourself. it's just this shocking thing and and I. think that shows like if you're running. a shady Empire like who's better than a. shady lawyer to try to help you cover it.

up right. how did you get involved in what you do. it's a it's a weird thing. um so when did you start your YouTube. channel so I started it a few years ago. um 2018 2019 and what was the first. video. I started as sort of like an interview. show nothing about scams. um I had a channel before it I so I went. to school for chemical engineering and. hated it I was miserable I was like I do. not want my life to be earning two.

percent more of you know of a bottom. line for Exxon Mobil or or any chemical. I just wasn't interested I was like. that's not my life so I always wanted to. sort of. um you know have a voice and so I. started a YouTube channel just doing. random videos I hadn't really found my. footing but throughout my entire life I. had kind of had this relationship with. like hucksters and fraud where you know. when I was in high school my mom got. thyroid cancer very treatable kind of.

cancer and she's fine but at the time I. watched her as she's like gets this. diagnosis gets swept up with all these. hucksters who are telling her that the. way to treat thyroid cancer is not. surgery. you can just treat it naturally just. don't worry about hey don't listen to. the you know the doctors don't listen to. your general practitioner you can just. treat it with like colloidal silver or. with just just put a bunch of garlic. cloves in the pot I still remember a. house like wreaked this she would put 60. cloves of garlic in like in a stew and.

she would drink it up because she. thought that would make her better. ultimately my dad uh convinced her like. you got to get the surgery like this. ain't this ain't gonna fly you have to. you know ultimately get the surgery uh. which thankfully she did and she's fine. now she takes medication to replace the. hormones her thyroid would generate but. I saw my mom kind of get swept in this. thing that I knew was nonsense but it's. sort of like hard you kind of have to. disprove every single like there's. always a new like Health guy telling you. that there's some new alternative.

Discovery whatever and I was like this. is kind of weird and I was like why do. they hate doctors so much and it always. seems to like end up with a sales pitch. like it never was like hey let me just. give you this free thing it was like. always like there's something there's a. catch so I didn't really know what I was. looking at at the time. then I go to college and all my friends. get in mlms multi-level marketing you. know sort of like just like the like hey. you're gonna get rich so I was always. getting invited to these like get rich. seminars and uh and I'd go because. there's like my friends like said hey we.

have to get somebody you know you want. to go and I was like sure I'll go I was. like kind of fascinated and you'd see. these guys you know they're like hey. don't work a nine to five job like be. free like me and I'm like you're here on. a Sunday at like 5 p.m how free are you. really like you're just like you're just. kind of grifting here and so but I but. you'd see them in nice cars and so I was. like what is it what am I looking at and. then as I'm doing my YouTube show I'm. like I get fed a bunch of ads like get. rich quick schemes like you've got a.

bunch of people you know flexing in. their Lamborghinis telling you you know. they're like 25 years old telling you. you want to get rich by 25 or 22. I'll. show you I made a million dollars I'm a. millionaire by the time I'm 23 years old. just buy my course my course is you know. two thousand dollars pay me two thousand. dollars I'll teach you to get rich quick. so I saw this and it all that my. experience is up to that point it kind. of led me to like I want to say. something why is nobody saying anything. it just seemed like there was this you. know these people pitching the stuff and. nobody was talking about it so I made.

this random video just basically. screaming about you know all these. scammers online. and unlike my previous work which kind. of had resonated like it it had gotten. some reactions but not much what I. noticed is there it resonated with. people beyond the views. if that makes sense like I was just like. there was something different about the. reaction to it like and you know victims. would reach out to me they'd be like hey. I'd been scammed by this guy and I. didn't realize what was going on and you.

showed me you know sort of like how the. whole. uh scheme worked. so. I decided to start pursuing it step by. step and at first it was like just me. discovering like well what is this well. how does this scheme work okay so I buy. this course and then what. what are you saying in the terms of. service that means that I can't sue you. you have all these terms of service that. basically say none of what I'm saying is. true like they say they can get get you. rich in the sales pitch and then in the. terms of service they said results May. Vary.

what's that about I mean ultimately it's. like and so I realized like oh there's. this sophisticated way that they're. praying on my psychology and they're. setting it up with like I used to be. broke like you well that's a strategy a. lot of these guys were never broke right. and it's just part of the story you have. to tell to be really effective it's like. I used to be just like you Joe but then. you know I found out that doing Amazon. Drop Shipping is the way to make. millions of dollars. and you know I used to fail but by these. little tricks I found out how to be.

successful and if you invest with me. I'll save you time you know you could do. it yourself Joe you could do it but what. it's going to take you five years get. with me and I'm gonna shortcut your. success two months you're going to be. making five figures a month 10 months. maybe six figures a month and I've done. it for people before that's the social. proof I've shown people how to do this. you can watch them watch these are real. these are real people Joe you can you. can do be just like them and so I.

started watching this and I started like. seeing it I'm like oh my gosh this is so. interesting I start covering it and then. I start to get cease and desist letters. they don't like that so they start to. send me they say Hey you better shut up. or we're gonna sue you. and I was like okay. I'm not gonna stop making these videos I. just kept making the videos and uh. ultimately they never did but. but I start I start doing that and after. I get cover get rich quick schemes for a. while. I start hearing about these tokens and. they're like hey selling courses like.

it's always the new grift you always. have to find because people figure it. out like they go like oh that actually. doesn't work like hey sell Drop Shipping. is not actually like this incredible. business that you thought it was that. you're gonna get rich easily so don't do. that go do crypto you got to get into. crypto now and then it became nfts for a. while but like so I so I started I. eventually like pivoted into this crypto. Direction and learned all about that but. it started just from a curiosity about. scammers and and I wanted somebody to. say something because I was just like.

why why does this make. some people tens of millions of dollars. and nothing happens. why are some of these people making. hundreds of millions of dollars people. are miserable at the end of it and. nothing happens. and that that was the start of my show. so you start just doing interviews about. what like you you just you didn't start. doing this you started doing just like a. normal interview I was just doing a. normal interview show with a few of my. buddies. um and.

it just was kind of I was just trying to. find my way I was just trying to like. but even before that I had done a show. where I was like trying to break down. these topics I was like researching. addiction and I was just like trying to. you know make some digestible piece of. media around like addiction right. because like I I always was interested. in communicating complicated ideas. um in a digestible way I just felt like. man there's so much cool science out. there there's so many cool ideas out. there how do we communicate this so I. did that for a while then I started like.

coffee Zillow was like this spin-off. Channel and I was like let me do some. interviews and then it was also my place. I just threw things at the wall so then. I that's where I threw one of my rant. like I just like ranted about this thing. against the wall and it kind of like. stuck and I just didn't I just enjoyed. it I was like man. screw these people you know like we're. taking advantage of like and what was. sick about it is they're not taking. advantage of rich people because rich. people will sue you if you screw them. over rich people will sue you right. they're taking advantage of like people. who they're like at ten thousand dollars.

or two thousand dollars that's like all. their disposable income. and they're betting on these hucksters. to dig themselves out of these. situations. and one that's one of the things I try. to tell people is like a lot of the. success of these things is not from it's. not even about greed it's about. desperation. um when you fall for these things a lot. of times you know you're like my mom. like the reason she fell for these. things is she so badly didn't want. surgery that she was willing to believe. anything. right because she's like you know if you.

tell me and I have cancer and you tell. me I can be better and you tell me it's. ten ten thousand dollars you tell me. it's a dollar I'll pay you either way. right and so people are financially they. feel like they're terminally ill. financially they're just like I don't. know how to get out of this. I feel like I have no opportunities this. guy I'm watching YouTube I'm trying to. better myself I'm trying to educate. myself and this guy comes on and tells. me it's all a click away right it's all. a credit card swipe away. hmm. what's been the reaction like what has.

been the most uh visceral or violent. reaction to What You've uh you've done. and exposed. I think the biggest story we probably. ever broke in was either the FTX stuff. that was already kind of going on it's. probably the Logan Paul story The crypto. Zoo Saga. um that was a case where you know it's. just the Classic influencer greed story. where this guy launches. an nft project does millions upons.

millions of dollars in sales and. delivers nothing he promises the world a. fun blockchain game that earns you money. and he he did nothing and the project. was left abandoned and people were like. miserable complaining complaining no one. says it but I'm not aware of the voice. I'm kind of aware that you covered it. but I don't know the story. so let me let me back up then so okay. uh Logan Paul is popular influencer you. know who yeah sure. um so he along with a lot of influencers.

got really interested in like the crypto. space and he had done a coin before that. called dink doink. which was abandoned shortly after he. promoted it people got invested goes to. zero right and he says well that's not. my project that was my buddy's project. and then like a month later he's like I. actually do have a project excited to. announce it it's called cryptozoo it's a. fun game they called it a fun game that. earns you money basically the idea is. they're gonna sell you these two things.

eggs is nft and then there's a coin. aspect to it called Zoo tokens okay so. you can buy these Zoo tokens to buy the. eggs and the idea is the eggs will then. hatch into animals that will earn. passive Zoo tokens. so your you can buy eggs with Zoo tokens. and then the eggs will passively earn. Yuzu tokens does that make sense no well. don't worry you're you're kind of. actually caught up uh so these Zoo. tokens were basically this passive.

income you know you basically invest up. front and then you're sort of getting. the tokens back out which you can sell I. guess. so. that was the idea pitched to people and. people immediately Buy in they three. million dollars in nft sales. tens of millions of dollars in the. tokens itself the zoo tokens people are. so excited about it because it's Logan. Paul and he says this is his project. he's putting his name behind it his back. behind it and he's a great marketer I. mean you got to give the guy credit. where credit is due he's a tremendous. marketer so people get all excited.

all of a sudden the the hatch day comes. when you're supposed to hatch these eggs. and half the hatching doesn't work. how does the hatching work is it on a. computer model it was on what is it it. was on the blockchain so you could like. you your nfts would turn into different. nfts like they would like they would. transform into the animals they go from. an egg to an animal how. uh it's just blockchain coding I mean. it's just it's just but how do they is.

it. is it predetermined yeah yeah it's how. does your egg become it's just random. it's like it's supposed to be randomly. generated uh animals so you and so you. might get a rhino you might get yeah and. chicken exactly and then you could like. crossbreed your rhino with like a. chicken and get like a A ricken or. something and get even more tokens but. uh is this it yeah there it is you get. like bear shark so like Panda so people. start to like is this still around.

so they say they're going to go back and. fix it now so Logan after being not. involved for like a year. as soon as my video comes out he goes. damn what a coincidence like I've been. working on it like I was gonna you know. make it like launch it in reality he. hadn't touched it for a very long period. of time but so so sorry to back up okay. the uh half the token half the eggs. don't work and they're not actually. earning anything the whole time they. said they're gonna earn you these tokens.

right they're not earning anything. so the promises haven't been fulfilled. there's just sort of all this stuff. going on behind and behind the scenes. Logan's quiet come to find out he had. hired basically criminals who were. selling on the back end like some of the. tokens. and he was sort of like I I don't know. what his his thing was I think he. realized like oh it's not gonna be that. successful let me move on I think his. mentality was let me just move on right. the problem though is you have millions. of dollars of investment in a thing that. you promoted you told everyone it was.

going to make them money and then you. never delivered anything so my story was. basically. showing that showing the victims of the. scheme and in response he's like well. I'm going to sue you for that he said. he's going to see you yeah he said I'll. see you in court. and then the backlash against him was so. severe that he releases a video saying. thank you coffeezilla for showing at the. world what happened and I appreciate it. I responded out of anger but I'm gonna. make things right I'm gonna fix the game.

to what it was supposed to be and I'm. gonna pay back. 1.7 million dollars I'm committing 1.7. million to anyone who bought an nft can. get a refund now there's a bit of an. issue with that so that's nice I. actually think it's great that that. happened but uh there's two issues with. it number one which is that. the nfts were only half a small part of. the sales they actually weren't even. half they were because people bought. these tokens so the people who bought. tokens get nothing he's offering you. know this refund on the the nfts the.

other problem is he hasn't refunded the. nfts I've been I've actually reached out. to him twice uh it's been like over a. month since he's done this so he said. he's gonna do it and then the Discord. put like he's posting in this little. chat room with the investors. after he said he was going to do it he's. posted nothing there's no way to get a. refund right now so I keep asking him. like Hey where's you promised 1.7. million to these investors they're all. waiting it's been over uh I think it's. almost been two months now and there's. nothing so it's like you know he says.

that he's refunding people which sounds. great for PR and then it's just like. radio silence so. what I'm ultimately looking for is some. accountability from these guys they're. happy to make money from the Endeavors. they're happy to potentially make. millions of dollars from these you know. different projects they're spinning up. but the second accountability is asked. for. you can't reach them so is it well I. would assume Logan's a very busy guy and.

sure I would assume that he probably. didn't come up with this on his own I. would assume that someone probably came. to him with this project this is just. total assumption guesswork guessing on. my part so we have text messages for. behind the scenes a lot of people's the. people who were responsible for say. Logan kind of spearheaded the idea and. he says he's spearheaded the idea so it. was his idea yeah. and and so he's working with someone. right that probably assured him that.

this would work. uh yeah I mean he had a he had this team. of a few guys. who they didn't do much vetting into and. some of them turned out to be criminals. but you know my my feeling is ultimately. no matter what happens like when you. take people's money that's what I'm. trying to like on my show I'm trying to. tell these like influencers like when. you take people's money it's different. when you tell them you're gonna make. them money and you get into the. financial investment game your.

responsibility is different you can't. just always pass the buck to like uh it. was like a guy that's not that. trustworthy it's like all right that. might be true then go fix it Go hire. some more guys that are trustworthy and. fix the thing and I think. um my experience because I've talked to. Logan and and that's why I know he. didn't respond to me because I I texted. him I said Hey where's this money he. left me on red but I've talked to him. and when I talk to him you know. there's just sort of this feeling of.

he's like I just don't want to think. about this like I don't want to be you. know he wants to focus on Prime which is. successful he doesn't want to be. bothered with the victims of the scheme. that he ultimately thought of in the. first place. so it's still is it possible that he's. just Gathering the money or working out. a way to do it legally where it it makes. sense it's it's very frustrating because. you know at at every turn it's just sort. of like uh you know it is I want to say.

it's possible we just don't know and. it's just sort of like. when you promise people re refunds like. the longer you wait you know the less. people are actually going to take that. refund if Walmart says hey bring in. bring in this skull I'll give you a. refund and you're like all right when. can I bring it in and they don't respond. to you for two months. they know that you're less likely to. actually take the refund. so I don't know if he's doing it because. he wants less people to get the refund. he probably is busy but my thought is. a transgression of this magnitude where.

you're playing with people's money and. livelihoods you cannot take it lightly. and that's one of the things is these. influencers got into this crypto space I. don't think they fully appreciated. they're now dealing with financial. investments and it's not a joke it's not. like a brand deal where you know if uh. nordvpn isn't as great as they said it. was you know it's all cool right it's. now it's your company and you promise. people you're gonna make the money and. now you haven't said anything for over a.

year then you say you're going to refund. them and you don't say anything for two. months that's a that's an issue. the whole crypto space and the whole nft. Space is filled with weirdos. like everyone that I've talked to that. wants to come to me with some idea it's. always very strange like when when. people have come to you know like my. business manager with financial. propositions they're always.

it's logical like it makes sense oh. invest in this this is a fund and it. does this and this is how you get a. return in your investment none of that. stuff ever made any sense to me the I. avoided all of it luckily but I was. propositioned by multiple different. entities about these kind of things and. I was like I don't know what you're. saying I don't know like why would. anybody buy an nft like you know oh it's. a non-fungible token and then you put it. in a nft wallet and you have this thing.

I'm like but I have the same thing on my. phone I can take a screenshot of that. nft and I have it like what is the thing. the physical thing. you know it's like I understand like uh. people do you know who people is oh yeah. yeah so people made that little Giga. Chad thing for us it's a piece of. digital artwork yeah and you know he has. an actual Museum of digital art right. and if you buy a piece from him you. actually get a physical piece of digital. art there's something there yeah I get.

it makes sense. I like the the ape Yacht Club whatever. the [ __ ] that is like what's going on. here like I don't I have a a friend of. mine who's an artist who made over a. million dollars on nfts and I'm like. what did you do and like he talks to me. for 10 minutes and I'm like I don't even. know what the [ __ ] you just said yep so. let me start by saying so uh I work with. a super talented digital artist so he. does a lot of my set stuff so I have a.

lot of respect for you know the. challenge of a lot of digital artists as. opposed to physical artists is like if. you're a painter you sell your paintings. right if you're a digital artist how do. you you print it out like what do you do. so nfts were sort of originally it was. like this is for artists like this is a. way for a digital artist now to. legitimately sell scarcity in their work. which previously they had no way of. doing. you still can take a screenshot but you. don't own the nft that like sort of the.

digital artist has sort of provisioned. like this is the thing that matters. so I have a lot of like in that way in. that one way I like I get it I get why. people wanted it to be you know to. become the next big thing the problem is. is quickly taken over as an investment. vehicle now it's like everybody's an art. dealer and now everybody's an Art Expert. and and now we're trying to make a buck. right and that anytime you get art. involved with money things get weird but.

especially when you get art involved. with quick flips and returns and now. we're gonna all make money from this. that's when things get really weird so. like I feel bad sort of for digital. artists legitimate digital artists who. really do legitimate nft work I don't. think there's anything wrong with. selling your work as a digital artist. like what do you expect them to do not. everybody can go work for like some. random YouTuber like you you know people. have to earn a living they do legitimate. work and good work but the problem is. when greed gets involved when people get.

involved basically promising you know. money in the case of the board Yacht. Club it's sort of like what they their. idea was will start like almost like a. country club where the nfts the pass for. the country club and like you can go. chat with the like holders of this board. API club and I guess the idea is like. because it's expensive then you get in. the room with you know people with money. um but I found that whole thing weird. because of the like you know Jimmy.

Fallon's getting involved and like and. then all these like mainstream. celebrities you know start promoting. this thing and it's like this is a. little why is everyone doing it and then. you come to find out that a lot of them. had their board Apes bought by this. company called moonpay who is trying to. like you know use the celebrity's. likeness to push that out and it's just. like this is a strange what what's. actually going on here is it just about. the art it doesn't actually appear to be. I just don't understand how it worked I.

don't understand how anybody looked at. it and went this is logical I'm gonna. buy that. so think about it so think about it this. way though so I'm sure you've played a. bunch of games video games right have. you ever played a video game where like. they have like in-game you know skins. and like different like outfits sure so. people so tons of businesses have been. built like the entire free to play model. of fortnite you know fortnite makes. millions and millions and millions of. dollars their whole model is built on. skins and like different like in-game.

purchasable items. you don't actually own anything. ultimately it just lives and dies with. your computer nfts are sort of like I. guess the idea with nft gaming or. whatever is like well you would actually. own own it like the game couldn't take. it away from you to have some piece of. art that you'd have some ownership of. that would matter. um. again I think the challenge is is just. like. where greed and like marketers get. involved they just sort of like ruin.

everything with scams and fraud to where. it's very tempting and I get the. temptation to just throw everything out. it's all just a fraud right because you. see so much of it and so much of it is. just like kind of people trying to scam. you basically for you know and use. especially celebrity likenesses to scam. people. um. yeah the celebrity part is a big key in. all this right it's a I mean it's a huge. part this is how we get legitimacy for. products now is like sort of like. endorsements endorsements it's like you.

gotta find a guy to do it uh so. ultimately like and the AI stuff's scary. because ultimately you'll get the AI. deep faking you into you know yeah. there's one of me it was one of me and. Andrew huberman selling some supplement. that's not real right yeah Alpha I don't. know if the supplement's real but I know. the the commercial's certainly not real. yeah they they deep faked you and I. think it went viral on Twitter for a bit. yeah what everybody knew was a deep fake. luckily it wasn't quite good enough yeah.

and then you know we tried to figure out. who's doing it and you just run into a. bunch of shells it's like very difficult. I'll tell you offline who's doing it. okay I know I looked into it because I. was curious I was curious and uh you. know that same person I put out a lot of. ads about like Kim Kardashian had they. had deep fake of Kim that a deep fake of. uh they had one of you saying that like. so they have one of you saying like this. product's great you know go buy it and. then there's another one where you were.

complaining that Andrew Tate launched it. and you thought you were sort of like. Andrew Tate's going after my brand like. because it's very similarly name to one. of your products and so it's like it was. kind of this hilarious thing where they. were playing both sides it's like it's. Joe Rogan's it's also Joe Rogan's hate. like hates that it's out there because. it's so good then it's like Kim. Kardashian loves it they had every. celebrity was like basically endorsing. this thing all through Ai and it's just. the Testament of our times like. celebrities are the new sort of. authorities. for better and often For Worse.

um but like but people use that as. currency now and like with AI you can. just like fake a lot of that stuff. um that's what I'm worried about is the. volley I feel like this is the very. first volley in a war on reality in that. the way AI is structured it's so it's so. prevalent and so like when you look at. chat GPI and then you look at Deep fakes. and you look at the ability to take I. mean there's a whole podcast of me. interviewing Steve Jobs that doesn't.

it's not real and it sounds like a real. podcast I there's there's a lot of. podcasts. it's crazy sometimes sometimes I'll I'll. check when I go is this real I saw. there's a bunch going around now they. can imitate anyone's voice like they. don't yeah I think you were probably one. of the first because you have so many. hours of footage so they had a lot of. training data there was a Canadian. company that showed like sort of proof. of concept of this a few years back and. I was like oh boy I know where this is. going to lead because they just took all. all the hours of footage so they.

basically have me at every pitch and. tone and yelling and laughing and they. could have me say anything at this point. literally and now they're getting really. good at the inflection because one of. the problems with these AI tools was. they were very monotone and they can. only imitate your voice in a minute but. now they're getting better at like okay. well accent the voice and then we'll. talk calmly and then we'll be able to. you know get more excited yeah um so. that's a huge problem have you seen the. face ones though that's the new one. Jamie can you pull up the um the uh the.

new tick tock face filters have you seen. this which face filters the new which. one in particular I think it's like. their glamor there's a bunch of Twitter. threads right now on it I've seen the. Glam one so it's amazing it's amazing. how they can put makeup on you no no you. look different yeah you look different. yeah it's it's literally going to be. this new world where you won't know like. catfishing is going to a new level yeah. you'll have no idea what someone looks. like there's a woman who did this ad and. she was uh laying in bed she's like I. don't have any makeup on and in the old.

ones like there's a really funny video. of this uh person that I know actually. who put this filter on and in one of the. scenes she puts her hand in front of her. face and the lips are superimposed on. her hand and it looks so Preposterous. and the fact that she's. so not aware of the fact that this thing. is happening and she put the video out. it's like we were laughing so hard like. first of all you don't look like that. everyone knows you don't look like that.

and then when you put your hand in front. of your face you didn't see this [ __ ]. giant cartoonish fake lips that came. over your palm this is so crazy so this. is the one that I saw yeah. like this is crazy yeah now if you touch. yeah well now if you touch your face you. should be able to they they don't uh. like superimpose any like it's all. really real like you can do anything to. your face and you can manipulate it and.

the AI tracks it all I mean and I've. seen people do it where they have two. screens like one that's actually them. and one that's them with the filter so. you see it side by side it's shocking. yeah it's it's really worrying like you. know. these Technologies part of the problem. is you could deploy them so cheaply and. at scale to where you know in my world. I'm more worried about like The Joe. Rogan deep fakes and like and like. people scamming people out of money but. I also worry about like the romance. scammers yeah like how good that's gonna. get oh when chat GPT now has all the.

scripts down and instead of paying. someone to get it you have someone. FaceTime this person oh yeah you have. someone FaceTime them you have it all. generated by an AI it costs you almost. nothing to do I mean one of the rise of. like robocalls was it's just cheaper. like it's really hard if you're gonna. hire people to do it you kind of need an. Roi if you have robots you know sitting. spam now it's now it's good you don't. actually need to earn that many dollars. per call to make it viable so you just. call everybody one of my daughters got a.

phone call about how much money she owes. and then if she doesn't pay this amount. right away the authorities will be in. contact with her and you know she was. 10. and she was laughing and she's like. what is this am I in trouble. she plays it for me I'm like oh my God. this is hilarious. but it's just when you take really. lonely sad people like I remember watch. this um television show once it was some. expose on this poor man it was just like. this old divorcee who was being scammed.

by someone and I don't even think he had. like a voice conversation with this. person but he traveled to the UK or. somewhere somewhere in Europe twice to. meet with this person that had been. sending all this money to and both times. something came up and the person. couldn't meet him there oh yeah this. poor old guy just kept going there. thinking that the love of his life was. there and they interviewed his daughter. and she was you know beside herself and. she couldn't talk sense into him and. they interviewed him and he was in.

denial it was just so pathetic and sad. and what is that going to be like now. with this kind of [ __ ]. it's going to be a lot more prevalent. and it's going to get a lot better I. mean the the rise of the ability to. generate like a realistic companion. Avatar is going to be I mean it's. massive you know these people were. complaining to me the other day about. this other thing which you're going to. find this wild so. there's this app where you can basically. have a girlfriend who's an AI.

or like the AI you'll like like. basically you know it's a fake like you. know it's all AI but it's like a. companion chat bot and you know I get a. lot of emails like oh such and such is a. scam and usually it's like some Ponzi. scheme or some get rich quick scheme. this one they were Furious because the. creators had sold it like hey you can. have hot role play with this AI bot and. then the a the the people developing in. the app one day said hey we're turning. that off but the reaction from the.

community was like you took away my. girlfriend oh geez like you took away my. like you like my partner. and these people had legitimately bonded. with a bot. what is that the Joaquin Phoenix movie. yeah yeah what is it she her her her. yeah yeah that's really the premise of. the movie but in the movie it was all. just voice yeah now it's gonna be some. actual 3D person is this one that's it's.

replica so that's like still the uncandy. valley right you look at that and you'd. have to have like really bad eyesight to. think that's a real person. AI shuts down erotic role play Community. shares Suicide Prevention resources over. loss oh my goodness. people were like miserable they're like. they're like it's talking so and they. would like complain like after an update. they'd be like because I looked through. their Reddit I was like so curious It's. like this is this is like a new Brave. New World you know but um they would.

they would say you know ever since the. new update she's just not the same she's. like talking to someone different and. it's like you know the back end is just. like a large language model and they. just clicked an update they don't care. as long as they're getting this feeling. right you know. this is it's a really scary stuff. because uh I read this uh statistic. recently that said that there's. somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 plus. percent of women are single but it's in.

the neighborhood of 60 of men really. yeah really high I know in what age can. be really hot it's uh you know 18 to 49. or something oh wow I don't remember the. exact numbers but it's young it's a. shocking League it doesn't make sense. like why there's such a disparity. between the genders that men are so much. more single than women like that doesn't. even job how does that happen.

most men are single most young women are. not. maybe the guys are just saying they're. single and all the girls are like we're. in a relationship it is just a research. right so it's just a survey I would. imagine 30 of us adults are neither. married living with a partner nor. engaged in a committed relationship. nearly half of all young adults are. single 34 of women in a whopping 63. percent of men. like wow how does that work how does it.

work if there's roughly 50 percent women. 50 men how could 34 percent of women be. single and 63 percent of men be single. it says not surprisingly the decline of. relationships matches the stride with a. decline in sex the share of sexually. active American stands at a 30-year low. around 30 percent of young men reported. in 2019 that they had no sex in the past. year compared to about 20 percent of. young women only half of single men are.

actively seeking relationships or even. casual dates according to Pew that. figure is declining what if like the. women thought they were in a. relationship and the guys are like right. yeah that's what we could say yeah that. you could say that or maybe the women. aren't being honest maybe they've gone. on a date with a guy and they decide. that's their boyfriend I don't know I. think the more shocking thing is just. that. more in general are single less people. are having sex and are engaged in. meaningful yeah long-term relationships.

I think that's you know there's it's. just an increasingly I feel like we're. becoming more atomized like you just. kind of can get lost in your world and. you get these pseudo communities popping. up like if I'm a board ape Yacht Club. member I could call you know I might say. those guys are my brothers but but are. they are they really like what is what. are what are these new community. internet communities doing right and. what are they not really replacing in. the real world because basically that's.

what we've done we've replaced a lot of. physical things with online things and. sometimes that replacement works. like I can you know I can kind but. sometimes it doesn't like I can like. FaceTime with my mom and it's like kind. of the same but it's not it's not really. it's a little Annoying It's a little. annoying right and they're getting. better at it but it's like it's always. kind of like this like facsimile of the. real thing and so I think this replica. AI is like it's sort of this like it's. trying to treat loneliness in people.

yeah maybe you could in that that's the. nice way of looking at it. um but it's kind it's pretty dystopian. man it is dystopian and one of the. things that I think uh accelerated it. was the lockdowns right so for. especially people that had a lot of. anxiety there was people that went a. year plus without being in contact with. other people other than their immediate. family members. and so then they seek More Time online. they're on online more and at the same.

time this AI generated 3D image of a. person is communicating with you just. that and then and then the rise of like. like parasocial relationships you know. people watch yeah yeah people watch so. much of online people they think they. know you and like and they don't but but. they feel like you're their friend. rather than them having like online. relate I was I was hanging out with a. few friends. um and you know they got approached by. some people and these guys like felt.

like they knew them like they're like oh. we know you know like I love all your. stuff what do you think about they're. asking about one of their friends like. what do you think about when this guy. did that and I'm thinking like this guy. doesn't know you like you right it's but. it's this strange thing where that's our. that's our new world it's different from. like when there were celebrities you. didn't feel like you knew Tom Cruise. right well that's different too because. he didn't really talk he only talked on. screen he's playing a character yeah and. when he did talk it was disastrous like. remember when he had that interview with.

Matt Lauer and he was getting upset at. uh Brooke Shields who was taking you. know psychiatric medications and he's a. Scientologist and they believe those are. the devil and so he was telling you're. being glib Matt you're being glib and. everybody was like oh my God this guy's. a psycho remember those I I ever since I. watched Top Gun I forgot that was. disastrous to him he said but ultimately. proven correct in a lot of ways because. it turns out that the the model of why. they were using these ssris is not.

correct like they work but they're not. sure why they work and the the initial. thought was that they were addressing. some sort of uh chemical imbalance in. the brain and now that's been proven to. not be correct. how do you think we go about. me so it's sort of like managing these. two things right like you manage the. fact. that. pharmaceutical companies have profit. incentives that lead them to want people.

to be on you know long-term drugs for. you know ever that's the best kind of. drugs one you never get off of right. with the fact that like on the other. hand you have a lot of like Alternative. Health guys saying hey that's nonsense. to listen to the guys they're also kind. of a lot of them pushing a bunch of. pseudoscientific wackiness so it's very. hard to figure out what's right and. what's wrong and what's correct and. what's propaganda yeah because you go. like you go like oh like oh Tom has a. point about these like all these like uh.

you know these pills and but it's like. okay then is the answer is the answer. nothing like well it's hard to know it's. interesting right because like the the. question is like illness right there are. certain medications like insulin for. people that are diabetic these are like. actual real solutions to an actual. medical problem that's being created by. a pharmaceutical company that addresses. real issues and helps people right and. then there's also stuff like hey uh you. know maybe you need Adderall maybe you.

need to focus and so they're giving you. speed right and so you it's basically. it's not based on a disease like I can't. go to a doctor and the doctor says hey. you have herpes you need herpes. medication and then this fixes your. disease it's I don't feel good. give me something that makes me feel. good and then they give you something. that makes you feel good you're like. okay I'm on medicine because I have an. illness like is that really what's going. on but what else what else is causing. that illness do you exercise do you.

sleep right are you depressed because. you have no meaningful relationships are. you depressed because you have a job. that's horrific and stressful like what. is causing this that you're just putting. a Band-Aid over and that there's so. there's confounding. issues that are all souped in together. and no one's the same that's the thing. it's like how much of it is. environmental factors like I can speak. personally I have developed some like. low-grade form of ADHD but not because.

what does it mean meaning okay so like. in the past I I could read books for. hours and hours on end right like I love. I loved reading books due to how much I. engage with social media. and I'm someone who tries to monitor. this stuff I was on a flip phone last. year for like six months out of the year. I mean like I try to limit this stuff. but because so much of my job is on. social media and Twitter and I'm. scrolling and the scroll is so addictive. because you can't take context switch so.

much so fast yeah that it's like my. brain when I try to lock into a book. it's like it takes me a bit and I'm. somebody who. likes to read a lot I'd say I was like a. voracious reader especially as a kid and. like as I get older I'm having to sit. down and it's more like work I like I. have to intentionally like okay I gotta. read this book I'm not gonna cut myself. from distractions and I have all these. apps on my phone to try to limit the. amount of like screen time that I have. because I'm just I know this is bad for.

my brain so. I've given so I don't know for me I'm. like Adderall is not a good solution for. me because my problem is not that I was. born with this issue my problem is I I'm. on my device and my device is literally. over stimulating my brain to when I. don't have that over stimulation I'm. just sitting in a quiet room with a book. now my brain's like well where is it. where is the where's the you know. interaction. so for me I think the answer is okay for. me I just have to unplug more right and.

that's what I try to do but for somebody. who. says I was born like this I can never. pay attention like is the answer. you know some people say Adderall helps. them what do you say to those people so. it like that's what I mean it's like I. don't know it's definitely environmental. yeah well I think a you're addicted to. your phone. for sure yeah most people most people. are yeah I am very fortunate that I'm. not addicted to social media I'm.

addicted to watching YouTube videos. which is a totally different animal yeah. and I'm also addicted to watching. YouTube videos on things that I enjoy. which is better so I've I've filled that. Gap with things like I watch uh. um like fight videos and professional. pool matches it stimulates me in a way. but I'm not engaging with this context. switching constantly like scrolling on. Twitter I go to Twitter maybe 5-10. minutes a day I go and I see what the. [ __ ] going on like what is everybody.

mad at like uh who's in trouble like. I'll I'll [ __ ] scroll such a funny way. to describe Twitter it's so accurate but. I do not post right if I post I post in. ghost I just post and I leave it alone I. don't read the comments ever I don't. read any of my comments I think that's. great that is very important for famous. people it's very very important because. I have friends that don't fi and they'll. come to me and you know what they're. saying I go how do you know what they're. saying like what do you give a [ __ ] I. watch people ruin their lives by looking. looking at these like their screens no I.

it's it's kind of hard because when you. first when you first like kind of come. on the scene you get a little attention. it's like intoxicating and you want to. engage too yeah because it's like. everything that's that's fun and it's. like when you have a thousand people. watching you like that's like beautiful. yeah it's like there's this community. they're resonating you have time to kind. of you can respond to people in like. intelligently. when you start to get into the millions. it it's just ludicrous it just doesn't. make sense anymore and it starts to be.

this like your audience starts to become. to you more it feels more like a hive. mind even though it still is individuals. it feels more like okay how do I get a. pulse of what this actually is this is. why people gravitate towards negative. comments when they have huge audiences. is because they go like well maybe. they're right maybe that like one guy. represents the whole of course it. doesn't but it's like they're worried. because they don't really know what. Their audience thinks because it's so. many people. so I know it's the right thing to do to.

unplug at the same time I'm like okay I. have to know the current events I have. to know what's going on so like I that's. one of the worst Parts about I love what. I do but it is the worst part of my job. that I feel to some extent I kind of. have to have my finger a bit on the. pulse to know who's into what what's big. but then after that the discipline is. like unplugging what I have found is. that if something is big enough that I. need to pay attention I find it I find.

it through other methods I find it. through friends I feel like I have so. many friends like do you know about this. do you know about that like even. sometimes when people are mad at me like. did you like what's going on with you. and that person like what are you. talking about I literally don't know and. then they'll tell me I don't want to. look at that like leave it alone like I. don't I don't give a [ __ ] but you'll. find out you'll find out because people. are talking about it you'll find out. like let the addicts scroll let them go. crazy but for your own mental health. it's not and anybody who's public like.

you're a public person you engage. publicly you put your videos out and. you're and people comment on them and. your videos get millions of views like. that is not an environment where you can. healthily sample people's opinions it's. just not possible and human beings are. designed to look for threats you're not. does you're designed to find problems. and so if there's one person that thinks. you're a piece of [ __ ] and a hundred of.

them love you that one person is the one. you're going to think about and you're. going to go oh and they're confirming. your worst fear yeah your worst imposter. syndrome they're like you are you are. crap and you guys oh man I knew it uh. but even for people that are just. regular people engaging it's like. imagine people aren't talking about you. because you're anonymous but you're. engaging in this very shallow form of. communication that's not natural you're. engaging in a text based communication.

with someone you don't know who they are. you don't have any background on them. you don't know if they're [ __ ]. schizophrenic you have no idea and yet. you are investing your mind and your. focus on these interactions you're. having with this person and most likely. if you're in a dispute you're trying to. win this dispute yeah so you're trying. to find reasons why they're wrong and. you're getting anxiety and you're. involved in this little sort of debate. slash mental battle it's like [ __ ] go. outside go do something with your life.

like social media is [ __ ] dangerous. but it's not dangerous if you understand. it it's like if you have a cabinet. filled with cookies and chips it doesn't. mean you're going to get fat. you can always go into that cabinet. every now and again and have a cookie. and you're going to be fine yeah but if. you just [ __ ] open that cabinet every. day and stuff your face you're gonna get. diabetes yeah and what's hard is these. these apps are built to be sweeter and. sweeter more fattening more fattening.

every year look at Tick Tock like that's. the best one that's the and that's where. that's where I finally drew the line. where I always try to stay up to date on. all the apps you know and. I have a a family member who's young who. like told me about Tick Tock and they're. like you gotta get on this it was like. back in like 2019 and they of course. were right I should have I would have no. no no but at the time I just said like. this is a step too far the the the. shortening of our attention spans. YouTube used to be short form that's.

like the funny thing it's like then it. was like Tick Tock and well it started. with Vine but it was just like this new. idea that like hey forget about 10. minutes let's talk try 10 seconds yeah. for a video and that's where I have. successfully disengaged I don't watch. any Tick Tock or short format because it. that would be the end of my attention. span I feel bad for like What do. teachers do now when you're competing. with like this never-ending feed of the. most well the kids aren't supposed to. have their phones in classes I have. young kids.

um but a lot of them sneak it and they. figure out a way to Juke the system but. it's just it's an inevitable fact of the. progression of technology and. technological innovation they're going. to figure out a way to get people more. engaged because it's profitable and. there's going to be a better app than. Tick Tock in the future a more addictive. more engaging act you have to imagine. right you have it's so funny to imagine. now because you're just like how could. you but then we were thinking the same. thing about YouTube you're like wow this.

is great like this is so you can find. anything anywhere and now YouTube is. like oh they're the they're like the. responsible you know like educational. company I mean because you learn a lot. oh I've learned so much on YouTube I. love it. um it it is kind of an incredible. platform and it is important to remember. with all these new technologies like. there are good things but oftentimes the. people who are creating the platforms. don't really tell you about the bad. things they want they're incentivized.

down down exactly their job is just to. make something awesome it's your job to. figure out your own life yeah but it's. you know the problem with things like. Tick Tock and YouTube and Twitter and I. mean this is what we're finding out with. the Twitter files is that then other. entities get involved in the process of. censoring certain information and. promoting a specific narrative and then. when you find out the government's. actually involved in that like well that. gets really shady like we need some sort.

of regulations and or laws to stop that. from happening or you need someone like. Elon Musk that comes along and actually. fact checks the president you know when. they started fact checking the White. House you know like actually that's not. true at all and that's not what why. there's inflation that's like you didn't. do that and it's amazing see the White. House delete tweets out of Shame. but that's the world we're living in now. but that's not the case with YouTube and. with YouTube there was some real. problems especially during the pandemic. with the censorship of accurate.

information that didn't fit a very. specific narrative that they were trying. to promote because of their sponsors how. do you how do you regulate that when one. of the challenges is that. the rate and I know this firsthand The. Regulators are so out of touch right. with the technology because technology. moves so fast that these guys they were. a lot of these Regulators were around. when it was dial up internet and now. they're in positions of power being.

asked to regulate things when they. checked out you know with email yeah. yeah well you saw that when. um people were interviewing uh Mark. Zuckerberg and they were talking they. don't know what they're talking they're. literally talking to him about problems. with Google yeah and he's like hey I'm. Facebook and they're like [ __ ] are you. talking about yeah. that that is one of the bizarre things. and so you rely weirdly enough on people.

to inform the politicians well who. informs them lobbyists right and then. you go back to people like sambang and. fried where it's like he's informing. them with money yes and he's like hey. let me get a meeting with you so he gets. a meeting and now he's a favorite on on. the hill because he seems like he's the. responsible one in the room and it turns. out he's a giant fraud but no one. noticed because they don't know what. they're talking about right they don't. know what they're talking about and. they're dealing with a million different. issues all at once does it make sense. so I I totally get the you know elect.

kind of older people because they have. wisdom but at the same time does it make. sense for there to be limits on age. where you get more young people involved. in these situations who actually know. the Technologies especially on those. special subcommittees where. technology is such an important part yes. it makes sense to get people that. understand it and young people are going. to be more likely to understand it but. do you want people with a lack of wisdom.

like these are the type of people they. were dealing with at Twitter they were. dealing with young Millennials that were. deciding to to censor information and to. you know I mean that that was one of the. problems that they had with issues like. dead naming people you know like if. someone can change their name and change. their gender and if you use their old. name like if you called uh Caitlyn. Jenner Bruce Jenner you'd be banned for. life which is bizarre because that. person named Bruce Jenner won the. [ __ ] Olympics like what are we.

supposed to do there like you're you're. just you're doing this based on an. ideology you're not doing this based on. fact the actual fact is that person was. born Bruce Jenner now to be kind and. respectable and you know to that person. and refer to them in the gender that. they want is nice that's a good thing to. do but why is that problem something. that gets you banned for life but you. can call someone a [ __ ] and that's fine. I have no idea see this is why I stay in.

my Lane of scams because I'm just like. it's impossible it's impossible to and. ultimately like one of the things I. really so so I consider myself a. journalist but one of my few privileges. is that I don't have to engage in. politics yeah and it's and it is a. privilege because I see people just lose. their minds lose their mind in this. culture war and it's like I mean I I. don't know anything about most of these. issues and I'm like. I have I have expertise in like one.

thing and like and it's and I I do have. an expertise in it but it's like but I. think now if you're a journalist and. you're sort of on the if you cons you. politically align yourself now you're. expected to have a position on. everything yes even if you have no idea. what you're talking about well then. you're expected to take the part. whatever the party line is you're. expected to take it even if you haven't. considered it considered it that's what. happens and I've seen sort of people in. the media become like co-opted By Their.

audience where they have to have these. opinions yes and so I feel lucky because. I feel like there is no like mainstream. thought in like scams I'm just like let. me interview a few victims and like yeah. they'll tell the story and that's great. and I kind of stay away from that so I. mean for for me that's where that's. where I always go back to is I'm just. like I don't know I that's a very good. position because I've fallen into that I. I haven't fallen into audience capture. but I have fallen into the uh. ideological game where you if you're in.

one Camp you're supposed to have all the. opinions that one Camp has yeah and if. you do not align with all the opinions. of that one Camp has you find yourself. cast out of the group and I thought. initially wrongly that what the internet. was going to do was provide people with. so much data and so much information. that we would lose camps and that people. would instead have a more open-minded.

and Centrist view of things and say well. I could understand why people would. think this because of that and I can. understand why and and we would have. like more of a collective idea but what. I didn't anticipate 8 was social media. and the echo chambers that it would. provide right and that these ideological. Echo Chambers also come with virtue. signaling and that people get on these. things because you're you're only. dealing with a short amount of. characters and you state something that. you know is going to get a bunch of.

likes and people are very addicted to. likes and there was some talk about like. removing likes because they realize that. likes were an issue and then people. freaked out just like those people. freaked out about taking away your. [ __ ] chat bot girlfriend and they. stopped doing that they stopped that. idea but if you didn't know. whether or not people agree with you or. disagree with you I think that'd. probably be better overall for people. because I think that that whether or not. people agree with you or disagree with. you is important.

but you don't know those people it's. important if you know the people and you. respect them and appreciate them and. that that used to be the world the world. used to be you know I go to coffee Zilla. and I go hey man what do you think about. this Ukraine thing and then I know you. and I know like that you're honest and. so I talk to you and you say well this. is what I've read right and this is what. I think and then I go oh that's. interesting because I thought this and. you go yeah I thought that too but then. I found out that and you go okay and you. get sort of a more informed neutral.

position on what things are I don't. think people are getting that I think. they're I mean there was a funny funny. meme that came out right when the war. started. that was like the instantaneous uh. change from people going from being. um Healthcare experts to foreign policy. experts oh it's hilarious it's very. funny because that's what people do they. find out what is the new thing that I. can say that's going to get me likes let. me throw that Ukraine flag up in my. Twitter bio alongside my gender pronouns.

and uh get after it and let's get some. likes and now everyone's AI experts too. now they used to be crypto experts and. now it's like everyone's AI expert yeah. it's it's the classic it's like. everyone's always current affair experts. it's a weird thing how social media like. it's an echo chamber but it's it's a. weird kind of echo chamber because it's. not just what you think so if that were. the case that would kind of be obvious. but it's also like you're shown the. other side but the most incendiary.

insane side of the other side's views. almost to the point it's like. caricatures if you follow so if let's. say you're a right-winger you know like. okay the most insane people on the left. are going to get the most likes from me. because my Camp's gonna love it they're. gonna eat it up because they're gonna. look as insane as possible so you make. them look insane the uh the left wing. people they go okay let's select for the. most insane right-wing person and we'll. put him out there and so they both put. out like these like sort of extreme. views of the other side to Their.

audience right and then you and then if. you're in that Echo chamber you go like. wow those guys are literally insane I. mean yeah because you think that's what. the other team is just like agreeing. with like yeah this is normal and. meanwhile the other team would be like. yeah that's a little crazy but like we. actually think this we have a more. moderate position on whatever. um so you know what I usually find is. when you actually deal with individuals. instead of like labels and ideologies. what you usually find is people are are.

pretty normal but you know we're just a. lot of people have been caught up in. this in this uh battle and it's like a. reaction to the reaction of the reaction. where you know you go from like okay it. was the mainstream media then it was. like like Independent Media and then I. find that like you know and I'm I I'm in. Independent Media and so I understand. the temptation as me as much as anybody. to like junk on mainstream media because. it's like it's easy it's like great it's.

like you get right you know and they are. wrong so often but then the mainstream. media gets pissed off and they're like. hey look you Independent Media you're. just all you do is spend your time. complaining about us what are you. actually doing in terms of news. Gathering are you on the ground what are. you doing sometimes they are but you. know I think. the news the it's all just kind of. decentralizing into a lot of different. camps and there's good people everywhere. and there's bad people everywhere. there's great journalists you know who. are trying to make a difference in.

bureaucracies at. MSNBC or wherever there's great people. there's great Regulators trying to make. a difference. but everyone's dealing with their own. incentive problems and their own. challenges with bias and their own Echo. Chambers. that they make mistakes and then when. they make mistakes the other team just. goes like aha yeah there's that and then. there's also Financial incentives yeah. it's Financial incentives there's a. problem yeah I mean when you get.

motivated by whoever is your sponsor. whoever is the advertising Revenue. provider for whatever show you have and. that that becomes a gigantic issue when. you see a mandate that gets pushed. through and when you see people clearly. moving in lockstep. all together like a coordinated effort. to discredit someone or to go after some. topic or to give a very biased and. distorted version of something that. clearly benefits the advertisers it gets.

very sketchy and the for the mainstream. people to say like what do you do all. you do is criticize us well that's a. very valuable role guys like that's a. very valuable role because you people. are [ __ ] like you're not Walter. Cronkite this is not the New York Times. of 1970. this is a completely different. animal and it's an ideologically. captured animal and then you have. mainstream television which is. almost [ __ ] it's all it's almost.

like you could just say CNN is [ __ ]. Fox News is [ __ ] how much of it is. [ __ ] is it 30 [ __ ] well if I. gave you a sandwich and it was a. cheeseburger but it was 30 dog [ __ ] am I. allowed to call that a cheeseburger now. you have a dog [ __ ] infected. cheeseburger right and that's what a lot. of television news is and it's not news. because they need to get you informed. because it's it's like a service that. they're providing because most people. don't have the time to gather that.

information you know it's a propaganda. disseminating entity that relies on. Advertising the advertising shapes the. propaganda that gets disseminated that's. [ __ ] dangerous and so if Independent. Media doesn't exist where someone is not. captured by that can't point that out. we've got a real problem with. information because then it's going to. be who has the most money and who can. buy out the most media and there's a lot. of that going on and that's scary it's. scary for people that don't know the.

truth and it's it feels horrible when. you get duped when you think that a. mainstream story is correct yeah and. then you find out oh my God I got [ __ ]. yeah yeah well I I mean what I think is. everyone the problem with like like uh. pointing out Financial incentives is. like everyone has Financial incentives. everyone even Independent Media has to. make a buck somehow right but what I'll. say is I've been on some of these like. like mainstream shows not many of them. but you know a few of them have invited.

me on and what I've noticed is they're. just bad like the um the platform itself. is just a bad way to express yourself. absolutely because you go I went on one. and I won't name it but like you you're. in this waiting room and they join you. in the way to it's like this Zoom. version of it and they go hey how's it. going uh I'm good I'm good okay we're on. we're on in five. and then they ask you like this like. three second question and they cut you. off within like you give this like sound. and you're aware like okay this is it's. live but it's actually not live like.

they're gonna release it later so I'm. like why can't I really think about my. answer but but it's given with this. perspective like okay you have you know. you have this 30 second answer and then. they respond and then before you can. even respond they cut to a new segment. and so I'm like you can't even get into. the meat or Nuance of the argument it's. the the format literally constrains your. ability to tell the truth the whole. truth and so one of the things that I. think has been so just unlocking about.

YouTube is like I just released a story. and it was about a 30 minute story so. you know how long it was it was 30. minutes when I have a 10 minute story. it's a 10 minute story when I have a 50. minute story it's a that is such an. underrated like just format shift. to where you are able to tell the truth. in the size that it is yes and I think. that's the problem now is or with the. problem with mainstream media that's. like it's a challenge is they're stuck. in an old format yeah and it's unfixable. because they're connected to advertising.

so they have to go to commercial every x. amount of minutes and that's not going. to change yeah and you need the in and. you need to get out and they also have a. time they have a Time spot so their time. slot is you know 8 pm to 9 p.m that's it. so there's many subjects that are deeply. nuanced and you can't cover them in 60. minutes and you don't get 60 minutes. anyway you get 44 with commercials or. maybe even less yeah depending on the. show that you're [ __ ] you're [ __ ]. because like it must be incredibly.

frustrating for someone who exists in. mainstream media to see a person like. you go into a deep dive and then they'll. look at the video like this [ __ ]. got three million views like this is. crazy you know my stupid [ __ ] show on. what network gets you know if you're. lucky a couple of hundred thousand and. that in in the key demographic what is. it like forty fifty thousand yeah and. these are like big shows and that's. hilarious but also it's it's great for. you it's great for me and it also shows.

that people have this perception that. because short attention span formats. like Tick Tock work yeah they're very. effective but that's the only thing. people want to consume that's not true. it's not true I think it's actually kind. of like splitting into two things where. you have like hey I have a break I'm. gonna watch something short or hey I'm. like you know I'm gonna go do something. let me put on a show let me like let me. learn while I'm that's become hugely. popular it's like hey I'm setting up.

something in my office let me turn. something on and learn something hopeful. while I'm doing it while you're cleaning. your office you're actually absorbing. something exactly exactly I'm like. sitting with basically sitting in the. room with an expert as he describes some. topic that I'm into and then there's a. problem that what if that guy's full of. [ __ ]. what if that guy's full of [ __ ] and. there's no fact Checkers so there's no. one to check and who facts checks the. factory I mean it's Pro it's problems. all the way down but I think like. the thing that I worry about the most is.

that um you know we have to have some. commonality and so you know I think I. think. why I like spending time on things that. unite people is like I'm like all right. my show you can agree with no matter. what like or you can watch it and you. can disagree with it but like it doesn't. you're laying out you're not divided. yeah you're not divided by you know your. interests either way. um and I so I think it's such a right.

moment for journalists to do more than. play the game of. battles but I don't think they can in. mainstream media that's why it's so. interesting and that's why Independent. Media has a huge Advantage do you think. do you think like don't you think like. 60 Minutes has done a pretty good job. they only have 60 minutes yeah yeah yeah. yeah and they don't even have 60 minutes. but don't they do like real stories not. just do real stories like not just like. partisan you know whatever they'll do a.

little bit of the politics but they. actually like they'll and vice was doing. that for a long time they did these. incredible like documentary like that's. journalism at its best where you're just. like you're just deep diving a topic. that just people will find interesting. yes you go somewhere you see you talk to. people and you go you present the facts. but you don't go in with this pre like. pre thing of okay I know what happened. and let me tell every like I'm just. gonna you know but Vice is a good. example of what's wrong because like. they were that and then they got bought.

and then the people bought it like yeah. you got a great thing going on but we're. gonna [ __ ] that up and we're gonna turn. it into this like woke [ __ ] platform. this weirdo platform and that's what it. is now it's like you can kind of guess. what their angle is going to be before. they even write the story. I still I will say there have been a few. good Vice pieces oh for sure but I know. I I know what you mean like it's like. it's really challenging I I really try. to be um. as charitable as I can because I know. like a lot of these journalists are.

working Within These horrible. constraints of like. you know they wanted to investigative. work you know one of the Dirty Secrets. of the journalism game is that. investigative journalism is the Lost. leader for every single news agency. they're all losing money on. investigative journalism and they want. to do as little of it as possible for. the bottom line because it's expensive. man to go send out a guy to really do. the work you know what's easy putting on. a commentator and you know I can just. pull up a bunch of Articles all day and.

I'll just I'll just talk my talking. points about those articles right like. that's the profitable side of things. because it's quick you can churn out. clips and at the end of the day you can. use the findings of investigative. journalists and you just put them on. your show and yes you go hey man like I. heard you found this and they spent like. three months on it and you spend like 20. minutes and you get double the views. because people resp they know you. because you're on TV all the time you're. on or you're on the internet all the. time and so that's one of the real. challenges I know journalists want to do.

that investigative work but they have. editors yes and they have people telling. them hey we judge you by the number of. clicks you get on our site or we're a. click site or we're a subscription site. so you've got to cater to the kinds of. people who subscribe to us if we're the. New York Times we have a certain type of. people who subscribe to us if we're I. don't know what the equivalent is the. New York Post or whatever. um we have a type of person so I think. the newer post is more New York Post is. more advertising but the point is is.

that these journalists are kind of like. sent out on these mandates rather than. go find the truth that's what they want. to do but it's like instead it's you. know you're battling for attention in a. click world where you're not even. controlling your traffic the social. media companies controlling your traffic. and it's about how many likes you get on. Twitter and how many retweets you get on. Twitter yeah. yeah it's they're trapped and it's not. good it's it but with the thing about. independent journalists is that's like.

they're not going to send someone to. Turkey to investigate some they don't. have the money you know they also don't. have people that they can just send out. and that was one of the cool things. about Vice is they did do that and back. in the day they they would send someone. to the front lines of some foreign war. and you know you see some [ __ ]. journalists with glasses on with a flak. jacket on isn't that crazy it was wild. Vice was wild in the beginning you know. and I'm good friends with Shane Smith. and I was friends with him in the early.

days when all that was going down it was. it's fascinating to see what they did. but he sold it yeah yeah well here's the. thing too Independent Media journalists. after a certain size they can do it the. the problem is they realize like for. clicks it's like hey I should just stay. in my room and make 20 videos yeah. instead of going out and so that's why. I'm a big believer in like like. subscription models for Independent. Media journalists like sub steps to get.

away yeah yeah I I do like the YouTube. equivalent of like patreon and it's like. that is a way for me to free myself from. like the view model which I did for a. long time whereas like it was just it. was about views and So eventually I was. like man I really want to Deep dive. something and I don't want to be limited. to like do I think this is a popular a. popular thing so that was a big change. and I think yeah things like sub stack. it really frees up people and I think as. we learn to like pay for journalism I.

think that's uh that's a big thing. because it's not free we got the false. impression that it was free from years. of just being able to go on like Google. news or whatever and sorting through. meanwhile the quality of Journalism was. just dropping like a rock as everyone. moved to this ad bottle yeah yeah to. digital it's just there's no money in it. I mean and the money is in just the mass. production of just slop yeah. yeah I don't envy them. it's not good but it is great for. someone like you.

yeah it's great for us yeah it work it. really is yeah I mean and especially for. having long-form conversations. what I found is that anytime a model. breaks it gives you the chance to. restart so you just describe the kind of. the problems with the models of. mainstream journalism that allowed for. an opening because people are thirsty. for like real conversations yeah right. and so this podcast can go on as long as. it goes on for and we can clarify.

anything we can do but this if there. wasn't problems in the previous. generation there might not have been. that opportunity for you to you know get. big basically doing what you do well. this thing didn't exist before it only. you know the only form that you have. that's similar to this was radio. and you know morning radio where I mean. this is literally where I came up with. the idea to do this was being on the. Opie and Anthony show and yeah and being.

on the Howard Stern Show where you would. go wow I'd like to have one of these. things we just have fun with people and. sit around and shoot the [ __ ] it'd be. great but no one was going to give me a. show like that and they certainly were. going to give me a show where one day. I'm going to interview a UFO expert the. next day it's a psychologist the next. day it's a you know an athlete and it's. just whoever I'm interested in and I. would I wouldn't no one would say yeah. interview whoever you're interested in. here's some money you'd have to create. it on your own which is I did but I. didn't do it for profit I did it because.

I thought it'd be fun to do that's. literally how I started doing it then it. became this thing but I kept it the way. I started it where I'm only like I got. interested in you by watching your. videos I got interested I'm like oh this. is fascinating oh this guy's clarifying. this stuff I was wondering why okay and. then here we are talking like it's that. simple and I reached out to you yeah. it's like me to you and then we're here. there's no other people it's it's CR. it's crazy to think of you know I kind.

of grew up in this I'm only 28 so I kind. of like grew up in like as it was. shifted as everything was shifting. underneath people's feet and it's. interesting to watch like I am very. fortunate to have never had to deal with. these middlemen and these people like. and people people have tried to like. inject it but I got I got enough people. who had been burned by that telling me. like hey you don't you don't want to. sell the show you don't want a middle. you don't want this guy saying he can. get all these deals you do not want this. guy he's just going to use you and he's.

going to inject himself for nothing you. get nothing and then and then your show. becomes worse it becomes this different. thing yep. but I was so fast like that is my. favorite and it's legitimately the most. exciting part of Independent Media is. for the first time there's no business. people telling people what to do there's. no Top Line guy who's saying hey we'd. really prefer it if you sold more ad. spots or did more of this it's just you. and the audience and that direct.

connection is special and we've never. really got gotten to see it before and I. yeah I think that's a game changer yeah. I know a lot of people that have. podcasts that sold like half of their. podcast or they you know got into some. sort of a deal with a management company. and the management company takes a. percentage of the show and then all of a. sudden other people are on conference. calls dictating guests and telling you. to avoid certain subjects or don't have. this person on or don't talk about that. or every time you talk about this we you.

know if you get a you know a strike. against you on YouTube it's gonna cost. us and. yeah that's not I mean then you're. you're back in the same trap that you. were trying to avoid if you were trying. to avoid that trap in the first place. but a lot of people were not trying to. avoid that trap they just started a. thing and then along the way that thing. became profitable and people recognized. it was profitable and then they swooped. in and tried to buy it and uh and it's. very tempting someone comes along hey. coffee Zilla we've got x amount of money. for you oh yeah and then you don't have.

to worry about money anymore oh don't. you want to do that and then you're like. okay okay well here now you have to. interview this person it's all to. promote some crappy crypto coin or. something like that's what it always. imagine if that was you if you fell into. that yeah no there's I mean there's been. plenty of that people are always asking. like hey will you promote this will you. do that and it's just like why sell out. like that it's just there's I think. people just want to be afraid of the. tension of worrying about the future you. know if something comes along and now.

all of a sudden you don't have to worry. like they're gonna throw x amount of. dollars at you and now you're owned by. this Corporation so you don't have to. think about who your guest is always. catches though oh for sure the thing I. think actually though the kind of like. the kind of day-to-day struggle of like. I gotta kind of like you gotta make. something I gotta generate something. useful is actually kind of good good. um because it kind of makes you strive. it kind of makes you push I. I really like you know I I feel like I'm.

literally living a dream because I. started making these YouTube videos now. I've got this like crazy set and you. know I'm able to like learn all about. cinematography and somehow I get paid. for it and it's kind of this wild thing. but at no point that I have to ask for. anyone's permission yeah like that is. like the like the nobody had to give me. a chance like you kind of create your. own. your own chance in a weird way that's. the beauty of YouTube you know and I had.

a conversation with Russell um brand. about this and I'm like here's this guy. who's a movie star yeah he's a huge. movie star decides you know what I'm. just gonna have a camera pointing at me. and I'm gonna rant and Rave and have. these comedic takes on social issues and. issues in the news and it's become. massively popular and I'm like one of. the things that's interesting is like. you're doing it the way anyone can do it. like anyone can set up an iPhone and. have it point at you and you just start. talking and then make a video and. there's a lot of them out there like.

you're not doing anything different. right you know what's fascinating is you. know what was the biggest tell like when. I felt like everything broke was when. all the late night people had to go home. wasn't that crazy you got it you gotta. see like they went from you know their. TV people and all of a sudden what's on. TV looks like a YouTube video yeah and. you go oh my gosh you suck at this this. whole time like I thought you guys were. some like you're the same as me you're.

yes but like we're yeah way worse I'm. doing it myself you have this whole team. of people and it's like this is all you. can and then you it kind of breaks the. illusion like it's like seeing someone. run a four minute mile or whatever. you're like oh I can do. I can do this show like I got this idea. to like make this crazy set because I I. saw somebody do this like Ted talk about. like you know um I think their line was. like you can't become Kanye in your. living room like you got to make an. environment that like speaks to what the. show is it's kind of a weird thing now. some people do do it very popular they.

have a very popular show and they do. just do it from their living room. and that and that's a different appeal. because that's like that's raw so. there's an appeal to the raw and then. there's also an appeal to like you know. high production value and it's it's. different things they both communicate a. different like kind of appeal to the. work but I I was always obsessed with. like there is no difference between. YouTube and like Hollywood besides just. a little bit of knowledge a little bit.

like Insider like they kind of know. tricks there's tricks of the trade they. kind of have a little bit more money but. I was like. you can hack this together now like you. can figure out ways to kind of like. almost get to like a Netflix like so. that's my that's my dream is to start. pushing for like real like documentaries. or many documentaries on YouTube that. look like they could be on a Netflix or. something like that but never go to. Netflix yeah but never take the deal. like never go to the producer just.

always be doing it yourself yeah I think. what you're saying about the late night. things is so so true because I remember. watching them do monologues with no. audience and I was like who said okay to. this why are you doing this there's not. a [ __ ] chance in hell that this is. funny or gonna work and when you see. those. flat corny late night monologue jokes. with no audience those are so [ __ ]. cringy and you you're also you're.

dealing with a lot of these people that. are not stand-up comics so they don't. even really truly understand how to. deliver it right like they don't have. the chops what they're doing is just. like reading off of a teleprompter so a. bunch of really good joke writers wrote. them some stuff and then they're playing. to the audience and the audience is like. laughing so they get this feedback and. they know how to do that when they're. just them and the camera you're in the. void now you're you're in deep space.

there's no one around you and it's. [ __ ] wild to watch it is wild can you. unlock like how different is that from. like. stand up I'm just like a casual viewer. of like the like late nights I mean I. know they say like applause but it's. that real like laughter and like are. they like saying like hey clap oh. there's someone who's doing this there's. someone in front of the crowd there's a. there's a warm-up guy and generally the. warm-up guy's a failed comedian or a. middling comedian who's just trying to. make it and they're they're you know.

they're you doing the warm-up thing is. like a side gig and there's people that. are good at warm-up and the problem with. being good at warm-up is it's a. profitable job and it'll actually keep. you from being good at stand-up oh. you're like stuck doing it yeah that's a. good starter I've had friends that were. stuck doing warm-up and then they some. of them quit and some of them didn't and. the ones that didn't are [ __ ] and. because those shows aren't they don't. even exist anymore there's only a. handful of those shows so like if you. see like how many talk shows are there. there's there's very few yes Colbert.

there's Jimmy kimmelon Fallon there's a. few there's only a few yeah and so. you know they um they stand there and. there's Applause signs and then there's. producers there's the warm-up guy that's. literally telling people the clock. they're like okay explain to the people. okay when Jimmy comes out I want a big. round of applause let's practice this. right now ladies and gentlemen Jimmy. Fallon yeah. and everybody practice it yes yes yes. they'll they'll train the audience how.

to do it depending upon the set but I've. seen them do that at different places. and I had a friend who was a writer in. the early days of Conan he was a buddy. of mine he was a comic and uh I went to. see one of the very very early Conan's. so this is like. I guess it was like the 90s or the early. 2000s no it had to be the 90s it was the. 90s and they were reading their their. banter between Conan and uh who's the.

other guy Andy Richter oh Andy Richter. yeah they were reading off of uh cue. cards so they had a giant cue card the. banter was fake so the banter their. their their dialogue back and forth was. scripted. so they were saying so Andy you know I. understand he got married. and so they're reading it and I'm. watching the concert like this is. madness who who approved this and it was. terrible the early days of Conan like. that that sort of banter was [ __ ] the. thing about Conan is like he's this.

funny guy who's a funny writer he's a. really smart guy and he had to figure. out how to do that he figured it out but. in the beginning it was awful and uh I. watched like the like the audience is. being cheered on there's literal. Applause signs that flash to tell you. when to applaud and like we'll be right. back yay and everybody clapsed is. everybody really clapping that you're. gonna be right back nobody gives a [ __ ]. if you're gonna be right back I feel. like they didn't know that though like I. feel like media literacy has kind of.

gone through the roof like so many. people I guess this maybe everyone has. cameras now so everyone's like sort of. mini producers now of their own show. sure and so they get it now and so all. of a sudden the the craving for. authenticity gets so much higher because. now you're layer of like what a Teleport. everyone knows what a teleprompter is. everybody's sort of like even though I. didn't know how exactly I worked I kind. of was vaguely aware that like they they. kind of told you to applaud and like and. the laugh tracks in you know sitcoms. were just canned laughter so I feel like. as people realize the fakery there's a.

craving for like hey can you do this for. real like can you not you know I. remember when I found out like none of. the conversations were real because I. was like what right what do you mean. it's not real like they all because it's. all a pretend like they're all they're. all pretending that you really knew. about my funny boat story and like I had. this quippy you know and I thought wow. they're so charismatic and you couldn't. find out they've been rehearsing the. story yeah they go over with a producer. on the phone and it's it's completely. insane when you realize that you're like.

oh it's all fake and it's and the. illusion is sort of gone and so now. I think one of the surprising things but. also maybe obvious in hindsight things. was Why shows with no laugh track less. less production are more engaging is. because there's more of a realization of. oh there are there isn't like games here. there's just two people talking they. haven't rehearsed their lines and I mean. I came on here you like there was no. production notes there was no like hey. we want to talk about this it was just.

like hey you want to come on and that's. all it is and so I think I think we. didn't even discuss what we're going to. talk about no no which is what I do with. everybody I just have them come in and. talk yeah well it's fast it's. fascinating and I think that's partly to. do with like why people enjoy the show. is that they know it's not like tricks. and gimmicks I I wonder there's like. it's funny to me as I'm thinking about. it I'm like they're sort of like this. like the world is accelerating in two. directions towards like authenticity and.

then like with all the beauty filters. and like the fake AI voices it's like. you can fake reality but we also crave. reality at the same time yeah for sure. yeah um people are craving real human. experiences. and if you watch those late night shows. you never feel like you know that person. you never feel like you're there but if. you're just talking and you and I are. just talking someone is like. on their iPhone or whatever they're.

doing they're a fly on the wall yeah. they're here. in a weird way. I I always thought that it like live. streaming your whole life would become. big. well that was the Truman Show right yeah. no but I thought I thought we would see. it like I guess you see it with twitch. streamers who like stream like 12 hours. a day but I kind of thought what would. take off as a I was kind of surprised it. didn't was like. you just watched my whole life like like. some people did do that they tried it.

yeah I was kind of surprised that didn't. because I thought I thought like. eventually you'd have celebrities who. their whole life would be on display and. like the authenticity of just sitting in. a room with somebody with just it's. quiet I think people just got too. weirded out by that but wasn't there. there was a movie I forget who was in. the movie but there was a movie where. someone had their whole life filmed at. the end they rejected it and decided. that's Truman Show for sure but Truman's. show was like that was the Jim Carrey. movie right yeah yeah that's but that.

was fake right like he didn't know he. didn't know they were filming his whole. life and he rejects it there was another. one where the person became famous. because they followed them around with. cameras everywhere and the end of it. like you fell in love with a girl or. something and it was over you know it. was always some corny [ __ ] reason why. he cancels it do you remember you know. what I'm talking about Jamie yeah 100. I'm trying to figure it out I thought. for some reason Matthew McConaughey was. in but I don't think maybe it was Ethan. hawk or someone like some some famous. person but today something TV yeah Ed TV.

yeah there you go that's it who was it. who was EDTV. but it was that was the kind of the. premise of the film it was like this it. was Matthew McConaughey yeah 1999 99. so. in that movie he like gives up on. everything after a while right oh wow. yeah see the cat that was it you're live. on Ed TV so that was him just a regular. guy who became famous living his regular. life how crazy is it that that was 99. it is crazy and they kind of predict I.

mean that was Justin TV for a while. she's still so hot how's she doing that. the [ __ ] is she taking. she pulled it off but it's that was the. thing is like that this would be bad and. they were they're sort of like saying no. one wants this like imagine if you got. famous this way what a disaster. meanwhile then you have social media. influencers who are you know every. single aspect of their life they're live. streaming they're putting it on camera. that's what Justin TV started as yeah. eight years later though he literally.

attached a webcam yeah that's right to. his baseball cap. was the first time we live streamed we. live streamed on Justin TV in The Green. Room of comedy clubs. so what we do is like my buddy Red Band. Brian Redban uh we would go on the road. together and uh we just we thought it'd. be funny to just like live stream why we. were there in a green room yeah and so. we just did that just for [ __ ] around.

and it was just. totally like yeah that's us in a green. room it's it's still there that's. hilarious it's not because it's time oh. my gosh I think that's the Hollywood. improv right is that what that is one of. them was that the other one was Pasadena. it's back in my full beard days so we. did that before the podcast itself and. just for fun and so there was like all. these different versions of it that I. tried out. and where I was thinking like there's. got to be a way to do something where I.

don't have to go to someone and say hey. can you give me a show and then when I. saw Tom Green's show that was there was. two things that gave me a big big the. big idea one of them was Anthony cumia. from Opie and Anthony he did this thing. called live from the compound where he. had his house set up with a green room. in his basement and Anthony's a psycho. so he was like singing karaoke while. holding a machine gun it was like it was. so entertaining because he had all this. money right he's very wealthy so he had. like a full like production set like he.

built a set in his basement and I was. like this is wild he can just do it but. he was already on this Opie and Anthony. show and so he decided for fun with his. friends like he had you know a [ __ ]. like a full bar down there with like. Guinness on tap and they were just. drinking and being ridiculous and he was. doing a talk show and just having fun. just being silly with his friends and I. was like I could do that and so we. started doing something like that with a. laptop and when I went to um. Tom Green's house Tom Green had turned.

his home into a television studio and it. was on the internet and this was. 2007 somewhere around then and so he had. like these [ __ ] cables running. through his living room and then he had. a server room and everything like that. and he he takes me in this tour like. this is wild and there's a video of me. sitting uh next to Tom Green because he. said had it set up just like a regular. talk show yeah where he had a desk like. Johnny Carson and he was sitting there.

and he had screens and this is me. explaining. why I think this is going to be the. future life for sure they'd be [ __ ]. there's no super cool hecklers they. don't exist but this is not about that. but this is that's me but there is there. is one video. yeah that's like a live stream show yes. that's it so this is like this is. awesome thank you man see no I mean this. is the craziest thing ever it really is. different you know than television this.

is way better it's like radio but it's. like television and the genre is. different because we can sit here and. round you know there isn't that time. constraint you know isn't that pressure. I mean you know we want to keep it. moving well not only that there's not a. corporate pressure you you can't just. express yourself because you're. expressing yourself to someone who's. selling advertising space that's crazy. you called this out we need to figure. out how you make money from this yeah. I've got a lot of neat ideas I want to. talk to you about because I know in that. wild computer thing take a little bit. from the bigwigs right dude this is I.

mean they don't need to exist yeah. they're non-creative people we talked. about this before the show they're. non-creative people who are controlling. creative things yeah and they want to. have their input just abandon them. in them isn't that crazy wow that you. called it. yeah you caught you kind of did you know. I just realized why no one live streams. their whole life I just realized it I. remember people were trying and like. they would go out and they'd call it IRL. live streaming and you go to like the. store you know the problem was what.

people would SWAT you. oh so they'd like call in a bomb threat. or something oh girl so the problem is. you get enough people watching live one. of them is a psychopath or they just. wanna you know they want to get. attention who knows why who has that. problem he's been swatted like how many. times has Tim pool been swatted multiple. times like many times it's a real issue. with him it's a it's an issue with live. streamers though because if you get the. reaction right because if I'm shooting a. show and something happens I'll never.

put it you don't say anything but with. the live show because it's you know it's. just happening in the moment you get to. see them put put their hands up and you. know the whole nonsense and and then. they get their little like you get mad. about it it stops the whole show and. they know they had that impact of course. yeah so that's what's bad about like. that's right one thing the other thing. is like what is life then is life a. performance are you oh you are gonna let. that stop them though but are you. capable of being so in the moment that.

you you are just yourself no matter what. even if cameras are on you would behave. and exist the same way you would if. there's no cameras on I don't think I. don't think most people. would be capable of that I mean. I enjoy keeping my private life private. my public life public I think there's. like I think that's pretty normal and I. think things get weird when everything's. online your family's online I've seen. people who they put out everything they. put out their kids they're they're and. they do it for the clicks.

that's what's weird and you're also not. asking the kids your kids are going to. get famous when they're babies and then. they don't have any say in it and then. as they get older people know them and. then you run into all sorts of security. issues because of that too and yeah this. is not wise and there's a lot of people. that don't think they just do it and you. know it's their Opera well it's also. like an opportunity like kids uh. channels were big on YouTube where they. were running these like sorry family.

channels are what they call them because. you'd watch the family together yeah and. then you'd get like your kids would like. to watch their kids and people grew. multi-million dollar brands on the back. of that and it's like by that point it's. too late to stop because you got a. mortgage you know you're depending on. that money coming in and say you can't. stop your kid better get on Camp I just. want to know like do you tell your kid. like get down get on your mark like like. hey can you react to that again can you. help me with this thumbnail like that's. crazy and then if the kid becomes famous. when they're young they're in so much.

trouble there's very few people that. ever survived being famous when they're. young very few they all come out [ __ ]. up it's not a normal way to develop Fame. is a drug that you have to develop a. tolerance for. and if you don't develop that tolerance. you actually develop with that drug like. instead of like experiencing adverse. Geeks but instead of developing your. personality you know like to to like. realize like what what what what is. wrong with the way I communicate why do.

people get mad at me why are people why. do people like me like you sorted out as. a human it's it's how you interact with. the world it's why kids you know pick on. each other and they're mean to each. other and they they're figuring out how. to communicate and be social if you're. five [ __ ] years old and you're. already famous you're in deep [ __ ] and. they're all in deep [ __ ] I've met quite. a few of them now I've interviewed quite. a few of them on this podcast I've met. quite a few of them in real life and. they're all [ __ ] everyone who becomes.

famous when they're a child is [ __ ] I. don't know I mean I was gonna ask like. do we know of anybody who I just. navigating like Mega Fame in general I. don't think I've seen many people do it. without kind of getting eaten a little. bit Yeah you could eat a little bit you. need to do something to mitigate that. you need to just do something real and. if you do not do something real then. you're like the responses you get if. that's what you're living for and if.

you're you're worth and your value is. based on people's. people's uh attention to you and. people's interaction with you that's not. good it's very bad and that's why I mean. it also like how many of them are. narcissists to begin with and how much. of that narcissistic tendency gets fed. by being famous it's it just like I. think with my like phone I've sort of. given myself some like low grade ADHD I. think I think too much of the like.

attention online makes you into a. narcissist even if you weren't one. original or it has the potential to do. so if you don't actively mitigate it one. of the strangest things is like when. when you get hot online everybody wants. to be your friend all of a sudden these. people come around from the woodwork and. all of a sudden everyone wants to be. your friend and then when you're not hot. again now it's like you don't exist and. that's a bad way to experience life that. your whole identity and your whole.

friendship base and everything's wrapped. up. with how you're doing online and like I. know for me at least I'm I try to just. segment my life to where the online. thing is online and all my real friends. are just. in my city just like kind of regular. people have different jobs I think it's. kind of important to detach yourself so. that when things aren't going well. it's fine when things are going well. it's fine there's like a stabilizing. something I feel like you're describing.

Hollywood. you know you're describing the problems. with Hollywood in Hollywood when you. make it like if you're you're in a movie. and you're you're doing well everybody. loves you oh coffee Zilla come on. through the red carpet let's go coffee. Zilla is hot now we want to put him in. this movie and they want to put them on. this show I want to do this and then. when you're not no one wants to talk to. you doesn't that break you. psychologically though of course that's. why they're all crazy I mean in in. Hollywood it's even worse right because. you don't get to choose your own destiny.

like you you've developed your own show. and you've created your own thing you. haven't been chosen in Hollywood the. problem is you're being chosen for. everything so you're being cast in these. things so you have to deal with people. that approve you or pick you so you're. formulating your personality based on. whatever the Zeitgeist is whatever the. ideology of most of the producers are. like if all of Hollywood was right wing. right if all the producers and all the.

executives and all the studios were all. very conservative and right-wing All. actors would be conservative. they would all be pro-life they would. all be first amendments Second Amendment. happy they would all carry guns they. would all it would be 100 compliance the. same way it is with left wing they're. not necessarily people that think that. way they think that way because that is. the way to fit in and be successful so.

you take people that already have this. exorbitant need for attention and then. you bring them into an environment where. they have to be chosen so you have to. figure out what gets me chosen so you. form your ideas and opinions based on. what's going to be the most successful. it's a mating strategy it's weird. because the fact you need to be chosen. sort of makes you play the same game. that you don't like which is you have to. go to the power Brokers and you have to. suck up to them the same way people suck. up to you when you're successful you. have to go suck up to the successful. people yeah and now you're playing the. same game where you're going to the.

people who are the decision makers and. you're trying to woo them and pretend. you're their friend. that's why when those people do make it. and they do get pushed through that red. carpet come on through Tom Cruise. they're all [ __ ] crazy and a lot of. them treat other people like [ __ ]. because they want to let you know that. they're a part of the chosen class so. that's like this thing about certain. celebrities being [ __ ] to to regular. people like why do they treat people.

like that well the same reason why. royalty does it you know like when you. see the queen you're supposed to Bow. like this is how it goes down that's why. they became the queen in the first place. that's why they became a star in the. first place because they want to be that. person that just gets [ __ ] exorbitant. amounts of love and attention it's and. it's very unhealthy and it's good I. think that it's now becoming possible. that you can be like a Mr Beast or. something and be yeah not be in. Hollywood he's like yeah North Carolina.

or whatever and he can just do his own. thing he can start his own and he's this. he's as big of a brand as anybody and. it's like it just doesn't matter he's. doing his he doesn't have to like kind. of play the same games I think that is a. like. some sometimes I think changes in. technology are like neutral like it's. like kind of like you win some you lose. some I think that is a distinct change. for the better that we've kind of. decentralized Hollywood a little bit. it's like you can just start your own. show you're not. we talked about being subject to The. Gatekeepers but even subject to that.

like kind of mentality of like. everything's about success and fame yeah. that's the currency of Hollywood but. it's also the motivation like what is. the motivation to do it in the first. place a lot of the people that are in. Hollywood their motivation is purely for. attention their motivation is purely to. become successful and famous whereas his. motivation seems to be to have fun and. to do things with the money that is. actually altruistic and good and. beneficial and you know charitable he's.

a really good guy like that's one of the. appeals and also there's no one like. filtering him that's who he is. that's that guy he's very smart and very. ambitious but he's also not really money. hungry and he dumps most of the money. back into the production of his show. he's legit I mean you know I have a lot. of um. a lot of people you meet behind the. scenes and they're like they're. different you know it's like the same. guy you me and that's always a huge. letdown I've had so many examples of. that but like but he was one of the. first like not first but there are a lot.

of guys but the big the biggest stars I. guess are the ones that are most likely. you're like ah you're a bit different. but he was like when I when I met him we. talked a bit and it's just like dude. this guy's legit like he's yeah he's the. real deal yeah he's that is who you get. the the guy that you see that when he's. doing those videos with his friends. joking around and making them do stunts. and pranks and all the different little. games that he comes up with for where. people can ruin money that's really who. he is YouTube's lucky because it could. be any but like they don't select who is. like on top and they're fortunate.

because it could just be like some like. some super narcissistic like monster I. don't know if it would work. yeah because the super narcissistic. monster I don't think would create. something that's relatable. that's a good point yeah could they get. some you had you had uh there was this. huge YouTube channel I think they still. might be the biggest like T-Series or. something there's some random. Corporation I think they're ways to. growth hack it maybe but but you're. right you wouldn't create such a brand.

right you couldn't fake it forever you. couldn't fake authenticity. I don't think you can I think after a. while it gets exposed and people realize. you're full of [ __ ] yeah the longer you. talk especially yeah especially on the. longer you if you're in little sound. bites you can pull it off for a little. bit but the longer you talk the more it. gets shown unless you just have amazing. stamina for [ __ ] have you ever. talked to somebody like that I'm sure. right like they're statistically there. has to be someone who came on the show. and you're like oh my gosh like after. like an hour that they're full of [ __ ].

yeah oh yeah okay oh yeah for sure. there's quite a few people that I talk. to that are full of [ __ ] and it's. unfortunate like sometimes people like. you know I've had people come on where I. don't realize until like an hour and a. half two hours in and then I started. asking certain questions and you realize. like there's something [ __ ] funny. about your answers here like this is not. and then we'll research them after the. show like oh good lord you know. it's a it's an issue you know it's like.

and there's also people that just. you know whatever their motivations are. they're not good you know like what is. their motivation to do a show in the. first place like is their motivation. just to try to make the most amount of. money or are they trying to do a good. show like if you're trying to do a good. show and you keep working at it it'll. get better go watch my early shows they. [ __ ] suck like you get better if. you're actually just trying to do it and. get better at it but if your motivation. is just to make money like somewhere.

along the line usually you slide off. I think most people who like want to. make money just go into Finance yeah but. they also want attention you know right. now and they want attention and then. once you've gotten the attention that's. the thing about Fame right like if you. go to a store and there's a security. guard at that store you don't think look. at this poor [ __ ] he's a security guard. or store you just think he's a guy like. hey man what's up how you doing you. don't treat him badly but if you go. there and it's Will Smith.

Will Smith has lost all his money now. he's a security guard at the store look. at this [ __ ] loser let's go visit. Will Smith ah and you laugh at him how. much you make here will what are you. gonna slap me to kick me yeah yeah yeah. you you would you would be free to do. that and that was the case with Gary. Coleman you remember Gary Coleman oh the. yeah the tiny guy he used to have that. show different strokes and he was famous. on television but then he I don't know. what happened lost all his money and he. was a security guard at a studio and.

they hired him to be the guy that like. when people drive through they meet him. and then people realized he was there. and this was like before social media. um so this was like early on and it was. a real problem is because people would. go there just to mock him and make fun. of him because someone who used to be. famous and now is not is a loser. but someone who's just never been famous. is just a person it's very interesting. but it's so weird because everyone who. achieves any level of notoriety knows.

how temporary and more than even the. audience know they know that it there's. a shelf life on everything yeah very few. people make it an entire career. like I'm always thinking like ah it's. gonna it's gonna be over like you know. next month right because it just it that. is the nature of especially online Fame. is even more fleeting than the old days. of movie stars it's like it's even less. so I don't understand why that is it. feels like. I don't I don't really buy into that I.

mean I think it's just people are people. and and you have your moment in in like. the spotlight for one reason or another. it's usually not about who you are it's. just you're saying something at the time. that resonates and things don't resonate. forever right but think of your. perspective and where you're coming from. you're a 28 year old guy who is doing. really well right now so you are in the. spotlight and you haven't had a lot of. time outside of it I mean how old were. you when you started your show.

I think I got actual attention maybe 26. 25 26 yeah so for the last three years. so you didn't go through like this long. terrible period of [ __ ] hating like. this and depression yeah so a lot of. people [ __ ] hate life and they look. at someone who is a movie star or a. television star like Gary Coleman and. they go wow how the [ __ ] that guy how's. he doing it how's he got a he's got a. [ __ ] Ferrari he's got a this he's got.

a that and then when they don't have it. like ha ha you're less than one of them. you're less than a normal person because. you're a person that used to be free of. it you're a person that used to be we. love a story of some movie star that. spent all their money and now they're. broken crazy I remember who's a woman. was it Margot Kidder is that her name. the woman from Superman. um there was a woman who was she played. Lois Lane in the early Supermans with. Christopher Reeve and she went crazy and.

like she lost all of her teeth and she. was like someone found her in the bushes. somewhere like it was like real sad like. real mental illness problems and I. remember there was this deep fascination. with this person who was a movie star at. one point in time and then it completely. Fallen apart like what was the story. with her do you remember the story with. her Jamie you nailed as much as I. remembered yeah yeah something happened. she had some sort of a mental health. breakdown and I'm sure some of that had. to do with Fame and society and acting.

and just the world that they live in of. the movie star and then also the Women's. World of a movie star which is a [ __ ]. much more brutal world because you know. I was talking about Elizabeth Hurley. she's the rare the rare that that stays. hot like she's hot she's like [ __ ] 80. years old she had an accident I guess. that left her paralyzed oh my gosh I. lost some money and it had some issues. with oh boy this this I I will say like. one of the challenges is you you kind of. have to.

you don't know how long you're gonna. stay relevant and then if you don't make. the money then now what do you do I. guess I guess is the point and then so. if you haven't set yourself up. then I guess and a lot of these people. they think it's going to be last lasting. forever because their agents tell them. it's going to last forever yeah so they. just spend all their money and then uh. especially if they don't pick up any you. know skills one of the things like with. with actors is all you learn is acting I.

mean one of the interesting things now. which is kind of. fascinating about like modern like you. know people who grow up on Tick Tock and. like the YouTube era is you kind of have. to learn like marketing you have to. learn video editing you have to learn so. you can pick up skills to where you're. never going to be completely you know I. know a lot of YouTubers who now work for. other YouTubers because they like they. stopped being relevant but they're like. I understand content I understand how. this stuff works they're not just a face. they're not just like a pretty face they.

have actual tangible skills beyond that. that is an issue though I mean I can I. can understand why that's a problem and. I think here's a big issue with someone. like yourself. what if YouTube goes away. that's the real issue like sure if you. if you're relegated to one platform and. that platform what if the platform. decides for whatever strange reason like. what if they get pressure from someone. who you've outed right and they come up. with some bogus reason to strike your. account and delete your account that's a.

real issue like if you're beholden to. one company that that can be a real. problem it is a huge problem right now. the number one video sharing site in the. world is basically YouTube and that's. essentially it I mean there's not really. anyone else. um there's like Alternatives like Rumble. but you know like that's kind of I don't. know why it's perceived as kind of like. a a right-wing thing so it's sort of but. then you know Russell brands on it and. you know I'll say Glenn Greenwell.

political let's say political commentary. thing I mean I don't know if like. mainstream like just like random. creators are doing really well I don't. know maybe maybe it's there maybe it's. not I think I think you're pointing out. though a very good point which is like I. as much as we talk about the. decentralization of Gatekeepers there is. one gatekeeper to rule them all still. for someone like me yeah that is YouTube. I mean I would like to think that you. know throughout you learn enough about.

making stuff making content that you. could move I would probably try to. transition into some like production. role yeah uh start a production company. I mean I think you would still enjoy. doing the thing you do all right you'd. have to figure out a way to do it. somewhere else but also you'd have to. figure out a way to bring like here's. the other problem social media right. social media is where you use to promote. the thing that you're doing on YouTube. so what if that goes away what if. something like we have to assume that if.

Twitter was on the verge of bankruptcy. apparently when Elon bought it sure it. was fast tracking to bankruptcy what if. someone incompetent bought it and then. ran it into the ground then it doesn't. exist anymore then all those people that. use Twitter to promote their businesses. stand up comedians use it to promote. their tour dates like they're [ __ ]. it's gone now you don't have that. vehicle and so your your ability to. access your fans is completely gone yeah. you don't own any of your data so you. don't own any of your subscribers data. you don't own any of that stuff yourself.

it's a realistic it's a real challenge I. mean one of the things. they also control what you can talk. about so when I was doing you know my. first show. um. I kind of had this I had this video. where I wanted to explore smoking and. like and like Vapes through the lens of. the FDA and how they regulated vaping. and they sort of went after vaping but. um you know it's a problem but it's also. like seems like it's a lot healthier. than like just smoking cigarettes are.

like the worst thing in the world for. any human to to be doing although you. know it's very fun. um but they're they're horrible for you. and so I did a video about that YouTube. like age gated it. so now. not only no monetization which that you. know it's acceptable it's just kind of. the cost of being on YouTube you. sometimes get demonetized whatever the. reach was killed so now this video which. everyone loved nobody can watch or you. won't get recommended like you know the. recommended feed there's also a problem. that now you're in a specific category.

like I don't know how their algorithm. works but if you do get flagged for. something you could get put in a. problematic category right Shadow band. or less likely to be recommended right. so. um. so I think especially I think they say. their official stance is they do it on a. video by video basis I don't actually. know I mean it's kind of hard to figure. out you know what's true what's not but. but I will say like did I ever do a. video about that again no yeah you. self-censor yeah and that's what happens.

to be a big problem that happened during. covid with a lot of people you know. people wanted to talk about issues like. the lab leak hypothesis usually they're. important issues too yeah that's the. problem is like they're controversial so. they are important right but it's like. you know I understand YouTube's. perspective they have they have. I don't know how many maybe they're. supporting hundreds of thousands of. people's livelihood and they're like and. they're like do we want to risk it all. on so somebody can say some wild stuff.

like right and then the advertisers pull. out they lose X percentage of their. revenue and then whoever that producer. is that allowed that channel to exist. now that person gets fired and you know. their success in this company is based. on whether or not the company's bringing. in revenue and if you're allowing all. these people to say things that are. really terrible to the bottom line of. whoever is paying money for advertising. that's not good well what what I've said.

is like I think a lot of these you know. some of these companies they achieve. near Monopoly statuses it's hard to. argue that some of these companies. aren't close to a monopoly in their. specific like domain that they're good. at because you know if you're going to. make a replica of YouTube you've seen. how hard it is with Rumble because it's. not like you're just video sharing it's. like you're video sharing their AI their. copyright they I think they said they. spent like 10 million dollars or 100. million to build the copyright idea so. if you want to compete with them you. need to have at least that just to build.

a copyright ID system on par then you. gotta go host all the video you got to. find the AdWords targeting Google is the. best ad targeting in the world they're. not going to give you access to their. system if you're a competitor they're. not going to give you the same deal so. it's like this challenge of okay who can. really compete when there's such a high. barrier to entry so I'm thinking like. why are these things not considered some. sort of public good. in that because we accept that it's so. hard to compete meaningfully with these.

things that are so important to our. public discourse. I understand the whole argument of like. free speech is just free freedom to. speak against the government not freedom. from a corporation but what I'm saying. is when all our discourse is online. why are these companies not some form of. like almost like a utility company like. yes on at some level you don't have the. right to monetize but do you have the. right to at least say something. yeah that's a good point and that was. the point about Twitter that was the.

conversation about Twitter being the. Town Square and that it should be. regulated like some sort of a utility. and I could see that argument and it. also when you think about the concept of. free speech in the First Amendment none. of that existed with social media and. they would have. imagine just trying to wrap your head. around social media when they're. drafting the Constitution with feathers. they're literally writing with a [ __ ]. quill they they had no idea what they. were saying so they were just trying to. get people to be able to discuss things.

without being restricted by the. government to stifle tyranny because at. the time the Tyranny was government yes. that's the only people who had the kind. of power and oversight to where they. could literally stop you from saying. anything as a government now it's like. okay you want to say something the. person who's going to stop you from. saying it is probably not the government. it's probably like some like random Tech. executive yeah random Tech executive who. has not unelected unelected from a yeah.

exactly yeah it's a it's um it's this. strange thing and I think it's actually. a very like. it should be a universal issue because I. think conservatives all don't want to be. censored and that's usually who gets. censored but left-wing people are all. about decentralized power I mean that's. like the idea is like democracy more. elected not just like these unelected. people but get more of a like kind of a. group say and Powerful decisions well. then they also should have a problem.

with the decisions even though they. happen to kind of go a certain way. still being made by unelected. people who just can have arbitrary you. know biases like that's the thing it's. like one day Twitter's owned by. um I forgot the last who was the the. health of the leader of health and. safety or whatever Twitter. um oh yeah yeah one day it's her the. next day it's like Elon Musk right and. they have different like opinions on.

things yeah and so do you want to be. subject to like both of their whims or. do you want there to be some sort of. thing on you know. I don't know on the books that we could. at least sort of have a public vote on. it well this is this is a narrative. that's being bantered about now that. Twitter's no longer safe from Trolls but. Twitter was never safe from trolls it's. just they used to be just left-wing. trolls now you get right wing trolls too. it's a it's it's more of a center.

it's not it's like the idea that Twitter. leans right now except no it doesn't. like how many left-wing people that are. addicted to Twitter State on most of. them a few like goofy celebrities like. valiantly declared they're leaving. Twitter and one of them was my friend I. was like what the [ __ ] are you doing. like why are you posting that you're. leaving like this is so goofy like and. you don't even know what you're saying. you're just saying this because you. think this is going to be appeal to your. base that you're so Noble you're gonna.

leave before the right-wing trolls come. back you know like cut the [ __ ] [ __ ]. and the good thing about. people being allowed to speak is that. you allow them to put things out there. that can be ridiculed by everybody and. so if you really oppose these right wing. ideas let them post them and then post. something that ridicules them post. something that refutes them post facts. post information get engaged if that's. your thing you really like doing that I. don't like doing that but if you like. doing that get in there get in there and.

go to work it sounds like a huge I mean. I I get exhausted I'm like just thinking. about it I'm like who wants to spend. their time like arguing with somebody. like. I don't know I guess it's just not. something I care about so it's like to. me that doesn't matter but I guess to. some people this is their whole just. like covering scams is my thing it's. like this is their whole thing and I. guess that's the whole it's like video. games it becomes their game right that's. where they get their score they level up. yeah they love followers get more. followers level up get more likes you.

know people tell you about their. engagement my engagement on Twitter or. something like how the [ __ ] do you know. I don't even know how many followers I. have why are you paying attention get. out of there go outside go do something. I think it's deeply bad for. Health to constantly be given analytics. like like this is the thing on YouTube I. was talking to Lex about this because he. was telling me he doesn't like he likes. to not look at his numbers and I was. like man I love that I try not to look. at my numbers the thing is when you go.

into your dashboard like they give you. every stat you could ever imagine and I. get it they're trying to educate you on. if a video is doing well or doing bad or. whatever but. um I think it's kind of good for artists. not to have. immediate feedback like there's an. argument against that though that's Mr. Beast. he money-balled YouTube YouTube before. that wasn't like a science it was like. an art it's like nobody knew what they.

were doing he comes and he's like you. guys are all idiots let's turn this into. stats and numbers and I love him and I. hate him for it because I got the one. one perspective it's like you kind of. saw the Mr beastification of YouTube. everyone talks the same everyone has. that hey guys what's up today we're. doing this and that's like because he. kind of showed like oh it's a pretty. optimal way of doing it so it's good. because he gave people like handles on. their own success which is valuable like. like it's cool that you know why a video. does well or not there's also something.

that like it kind of kills a little bit. of creativity and inspiration when all. of a sudden you know like this segment. ain't gonna do it right like and you. they give you this graph have you ever. seen the retention graph no oh it's. hilarious so you start off at a hundred. percent and then you just see as people. leave and then it goes to the end of the. video and you see how many people were. left and like at every moment you can. tell if someone clicked off at that. moment and so [ __ ] good so much. anxiety for that oh and and what they do.

now and like this is taught like a. YouTube you know boot camps it's like. look at your retention graph and. everything that wasn't good if people. clicked off you gotta you gotta cut it. you got to stop and and I think that. creates its own like you know sickness. because yeah. YouTube boot camps are hilarious that's. so funny that they have YouTube but it. makes sense I mean if you wanted to. treat it like a business like any other. business if you wanted to get involved. and you know you wanted to open up a. small business somewhere you know you. could treat YouTube like you're opening.

up a small business like I get it I get. it it's not my thing though so I don't I. don't get that aspect I think that would. [ __ ] with what I do I think that would. get in the way I think it would [ __ ]. with what you do too I don't I think it. gets in the way more than it helps we've. we've had to move away for a while we. really emulated some like creators uh. who we liked what they did but. eventually what you realize is like I. just have a different audience and I. have people are here for different. reasons and so I have to find my I can't. just rely on a book or not literally a.

book but like the Playbook of like what. has worked for you I have to find out. like you know. not only what my audience wants but what. do I want yes I think it's the most. important it is the most important thing. we're not just making well I'm not. making things for other people I'm. making because I think it's cool I think. it's interesting and I think it's. valuable just for me to express it and. so I have to find out like why do people. watch my show what do I want for my show. in a way that even if nobody wants it I. put it in like I have this like this.

whole robot bartender thing and it's. like the CGI thing and I do it because I. like it yeah it's fun for me I get I get. a real kick out of that stuff I'm like. I'm a nerd when it comes to that CGI. Tech stuff and uh people wouldn't. believe how much time I spend on that I. spend like half my day I'm like just. like tweaking this stuff like but that. resonates with people that's one of the. reasons why people like it I think when. when you do something that you like it's. very obvious to the people that are. paying attention I think that's part of.

the appeal of a lot of shows you know I. think that that's why it works I I mean. I think that's one of the secrets to my. success is that I only have on people. that I'm actually interested in talking. to so I'm engaged I'm not just. bullshitting my way through someone. trying to promote some movie you know. I'm actually engaged if I have someone. on that's promoting a movie I'm. interested in the movie right I want to. know what they're doing if it's a. documentary like I want to know like how. did you go about doing this like what's. the process I'm actually engaged when. you're faking it and phoning it in.

people know it they feel it you know. that's. the beauty of your shows I think your. show serves multiple purposes but one of. the things is that it it certainly. clearly appears to what your it appeals. to what you're interested in and you act. as a watchdog like I watched the Celsius. video that you put out recently and I. watched it today and I was like this is. so valuable because I'm seeing all these. people because you you showed those. people that did get scammed and the. people that get [ __ ] over by this guy. who created this thing and you know they.

have a voice now and you can you can. also like let all these other. [ __ ] that are trying to do. something like that know that coffee. Zilla is out there and he's gonna find. you and he's gonna put you on blast and. people are gonna know and it's gonna be. more difficult for the next person to. and again it's not the wealthy investors. that will sue it's these people that put. in two thousand dollars and it's the. only two thousand dollars they had. that's that's where it's so valuable and. and I know that you feel that way and it.

comes through in your video and I think. that's why it's appealing that's why. it's working. I I really discovered early on that. nobody cares about the numbers the. numbers are like the headline or. whatever but ultimately you can't make a. like this stuff doesn't matter until you. get people involved yeah until you hear. the victims talk they're the heartbeat. of everything because until you hear. that like what's a billion dollar it's. impossible to talk yeah and it's not and. then and then you watch the guy and.

you're like this who would fall for this. you know like it's easy to get cynical. if you just see the numbers and the guy. who defrauded people yeah the second you. humanize it and you show a person and. all of a sudden you see someone with all. the same problems and you can just tell. you can see it in their eyes and they're. just wrecked by this guy who who they. believe who truly they believed in it's. like the biggest betrayal you trusted. somebody with everything and then they. stab you in the back like this uh Alex. machinski CEO of Celsius his whole thing.

was banks are evil which is not. crazy I mean it's like you know you can. understand why a lot of people resonated. with that they're like and it wasn't. even other people yeah yeah sorry I was. gonna correct that he said like they're. greedy yeah and that's true like it's. like and he's not yeah yeah he goes like. banks are not your friends true. statement Alex and then those. interviewers like but Alex is your. friend and he's like yeah he's like you. basically you can take the same ride as. me eight percent eight percent a year. I'll just give it to you you know we're.

we're giving we're doing the same thing. as the banks we're loaning out your. money but we're gonna pass on 80 percent. of the revenue back to you instead of. the banks which they take all your money. right. um so people bought into that they said. that sounds great like a new hey the. internet changed everything you know we. think crypto is going to change. everything why not have a bank that. instead instead of serving at. shareholders it serves its customers it. kind of like there's something that. makes sense there it's really compelling. and then come to find out Celsius was. never making money they said they were.

paying out you know you with uh with. with their profits they were paying out. you with new deposits like new people. were coming in and they were paying you. out and so it was this giant Ponzi. scheme where they set the rewards. because they knew if it's high enough. people are just gonna flock to them and. so but they had this compelling. explanation for why like it kind of made. it kind of made a little bit of sense. and then they when it finally goes wrong. he just get he just walks away I mean. yeah he's getting sued civilly but.

where's the criminal action he's going. to go to jail probably not. and it's like that is so messed up that. is such a that itself is a crime I I. think it's so sick that we allow we. throw the book at people who will rob a. store with a gun right still ten. thousand bucks. people who steal millions billions of. dollars often get away with it. because it's just done a little. differently there's not the drama of the. gun and somebody's even if no one gets. shot there's it's just hey it's just he.

pushed a few pencils around he got you. to sign a few shitty but that's just as. sick and twisted but it's just done in a. way that socially is slightly more. acceptable and get they get away with it. way more often but I would contend that. these people are literally financially. murdering people after Celsius people. committed suicide because of I mean. literally it's a fact people committed. suicide because they lost everything I'm. sure FTX as well of course you know the. bigger the bigger the scam there's just.

statistically it almost becomes. impossible that you don't at least. if not financially sort of. metaphorically murdering a family you. literally kill somebody and people walk. away with. not like either only the guy at the top. goes down or nobody goes down and that. is crazy to me it's like what message. are we sending. via our our Regulators basically it's. like hey you're gonna get a slap on the. wrist. if you're caught and this what you just. did is why you're so successful that's.

real this is how you really feel this is. your re and this is why your show works. this is this is it right there like what. you just did is why I'm interested in. your show because it's this is your real. thought something has to change I mean. something has to change where you can't. you can't just go go on like this where. if if we're really going to allow if if. we're going to you know take our. financial future in our own hands we're. going to allow these influencers to talk. about Finance somebody has to be there.

when things go wrong yes and there has. to be consequences if you lie and if you. cheat and you steal there has to be a. guy at the end of the day who's gonna. put you in trouble and I think a YouTube. video is not nearly enough that's why. I'm constantly saying like hey it's up. from someone from the government get. involved like go [ __ ] this guy up go. lock somebody you know. I know it's like a lot of this is new. like the crypto stuff is new but it. they're doing old crimes in a new way. yeah it's always been illegal to steal.

people's money and that is what's. happening and that's why I put these. people on my show so you don't think. it's some like rug pull where it's all. fake money no there was real money in. these companies. and they just stole it a new way but. it's they're still stealing money and. the fact that we haven't found a way to. put some of these people in jail is. mind-blowing to me and we're sending a. bad message that hey just keep doing it. just go starting there are people now. uh they were trying to start GTX after. FTX some new some new guys are trying to.

start like the new thing and it's like. TX is next it's just it's just like you. know you have to that's half the purpose. of the law is to it's partly you know. for you know you did something wrong you. get punished but also part of it is you. do something wrong you send a message to. socially you socially signal that we do. not tolerate this and right now the. social signal were were sending and. accepting is if you scam there's a very. high likelihood you will get away with. it and if you don't get away with it.

you'll get a little slap on the wrist. you'll get a little fine. and that's not that's not working no. it's not. hey man thanks for being here this is a. lot of fun it's a lot of fun Joe I. appreciate your show I appreciate you I. appreciate what you're doing and uh I. really enjoyed this thank you so much. thank you tell everybody how to get your. show what your social media is coffee. Zilla that's it uh that's the place to. find best place to find me. um I appreciate you guys having me on. this is surreal been a big fan of the. show thank you appreciate you all right.

bye everybody. thank you. [Music].