Joe Rogan Experience #1942 - Mark Greaney

[Music]. by night. what's up Mark how are you nice to meet. you man it's very nice to meet you I've. read uh I'm on the 11th book oh wow. yours no yeah so the whole Gray Man. series I'm in uh I'm on um Sierra six. yeah yeah the new one comes out. immediately so yeah they sent me the new.

one good yeah so I have a copy of it. that's awesome I appreciate you reading. it's uh. you write some [ __ ] up books man. [Laughter]. you seem like such a normal guy I was. always wondering I'm like how does. someone write like this and not be a. total psycho like the fact that you have. those thoughts in your mind and you can. Envision and create these scenarios in. your brain yeah that pops into my head a. lot when I'm talking to people like my.

aunt who's passed away but she was 93. and you know it's like hey Dorothy. here's my book about sex trafficking I. hope you enjoy it you know she read it. because she would my aunt if I joined. the Taliban she'd be like well then you. know they have some nice clothing or. something she should never find a. positive she'd find a positive so she. never complained about anything but yeah. I I do run into people all the time you. know kids parents or you know on my. soccer team my kids soccer team or. whatever and and I'm like I wonder what. they think of me because I wonder if.

they know yeah like how many of them. have read your book yeah it's the ones. that say they've read my books and then. I kind of go like like ah crap yeah I. get that with parents when they say. they've listened to my podcast I really. love your podcast I'm like [ __ ] yeah. like what kind of psycho stuff do we. have to talk about now but your your. books are so violent they're so CR it's. like for me it's uh I really I listen to. them uh on um on audio when I'm in the. sauna all the time oh great because the.

song is so a torturous you know because. I keep it at 190 degrees and I'm in. there for 25 minutes it's [ __ ] rough. yeah and it's like that kind of like. the the kind of insane narratives that. you create the kind of you know. situations that you create in your mind. they're they're very good when you're. suffering yeah yeah I have a blue collar. like philosophy about writing like I. like generating a product that people. can use if their flights delayed or you.

know they're snowed in or whatever and I. get people emailing me all the time it's. like hey I read your book when my mom. was sick and I was at the hospital and. you know I like that you know that it. serves a sort of physical purpose you. know like it's a it's an it's an. instrument it's not just an idea it's a. great instrument of escapism yeah. because because it's so compelling and. because the books are so interesting and. by the way shout out to uh Jack Carr. because Jack Carr is the guy who turned. me on yeah that's fantastic because I. read his first book and I was like this.

is great do you have any other authors. that you recommend like who are you into. and then he told me about you yeah yeah. we've been friends before first book. came out uh we were connected with one. another through a guy in the fire. industry and and I was like yeah I think. this I've read his book I was like yeah. he's going somewhere little did I know. he I think he'd already had it optioned. and that for for TV so yeah he's just an. awesome person too you know it's just a. really great guy you know I met him a. few years back in elk hunting camp. especially where I met him in Utah and.

uh I didn't know who he was I hadn't. read any of his books he gave me a copy. of his book just seemed like a really. nice guy and then I got it I'm like this. book is [ __ ] great yeah yeah I didn't. agree with the series too oh yeah I was. impressed with it you know it was really. impressed yeah I I. um I enjoyed The Gray Man movie but it. was not as good as your book thank you. for saying that it just wasn't the same. story yeah like they they they. hollywoodized it absolutely and you know. I liked it and and what I say and I.

don't know how this makes me sound it's. like the movie is the best possible. commercial for my writing and if you're. a writer you want eyeballs on your work. and so it's I love the movie and you. know there's it's a dialogue in there. and things they did with the plot that. that I really liked but you know it's. not as gritty it's not. um not nearly yeah you know and they do. things that they have to do shorthand in. a in a movie I get a hundred thousand. words to write a book or 150 000 words. to write a book so um I have some. luxuries that you know they don't have.

putting something on the screen but I. like the fact that they're different in. two things because there's still a. reason to read my book if you saw the. movie and enjoyed it hopefully it turns. you on to the book and and then you see. something different in there no I. definitely think there's that element to. it because it is it's a it's for sure a. hollywoodized version of these gritty. books that you write yeah but it's also. good yeah like if you didn't know about. the book you just saw the movie it's. good yeah there's a few different things.

but the bug is so much [ __ ] nastier. and also I said thank you I don't know. if that's what I should say. but court Gentry in your books is just. so much different than Ryan in the. movies it's just like yeah I mean they. did a lot without dialogue which I. appreciated and I liked you know you. know he'd do a lot with a look but I. mean when you in a book you're able to. get into the characters had quite a. quite a bit more so it's a different. experience if you could pick a person. like an actor if you could start from.

scratch no disrespect to it's Ryan. Reynolds or right Gosling yeah yeah why. do I always [ __ ] that up I always [ __ ]. that up. I couldn't pick either one of them out. of a [ __ ] lineup to save my life. Gosling Ryan Gosling I really like the. guy too yeah by the way. um. who would you pick if you want if you. know just like if you could just like. say any actor like who do you think you. would go with you know that's it's a. tough question because that thing has. been in Hollywood the gray man's been in. Hollywood since two months before the.

little paperback came out in 2009 so. it's been bouncing around and I've heard. every actor at one point Brad Pitt was. signed on to it and really yeah yeah. like back 2011 or something and then it. fell apart and it came back and each. time they would send me a script or. whoever was doing it and at one point. Charlie's Darren wanted to do it and. they reread yeah she wanted to be the. girl like she wanted to be Court Gentry. oh my God so they they wrote a script. for it and it was good screenwriters and. I remember reading the script going like. was it the gray woman or the color the.

gray non-binary person it was still The. Gray Man her name was still Court Gentry. but everything everything was different. then they never really explained is that. short for Courtney or something oh my. god um but it was just a completely. different plot and thank God they didn't. do that I thought if they changed you. know like if and I love her because she. just done Fury Road so I mean I'd love. to write something for her to be in I. didn't see Fury Road oh the Mad Max oh. oh man Max yeah okay. um and she was so good but as an author.

you couldn't put out the gray man novel. with her face on it and they opened the. book and it has nothing to do. um you know with a woman and and as much. as I love her like I was like well this. isn't gonna you know sell books or get. eyes in my work this green play was. actually really good but I remember. thinking if I went to the theater and. saw it and had a different title I would. not even know there'd be like one scene. where I'm like oh yeah I did a thing on. a plane too you know it was so different. it was a completely different plot it. was good I wish they'd make it and call.

it something else yeah make it and call. it something else you don't call it the. gray man it's that's such a weird Choice. yeah yeah at one point like real early. on when it first got optioned people. were asking me who should play the. character and I thought it would be. somebody who's not like you know Rambo. or anything like that so I was saying. like Casey Affleck or somebody like that. oh interesting you wouldn't expect uh. you know in a big action film but. wouldn't you need someone who's like. physically formidable. yeah you know I don't the thing is is.

I've written 12 books and I've never. once had him working out I've never. showed him I know I've never shown him. working out you know or even really. training because you talked a couple of. times about him doing like calisthenics. or something oh yeah yeah I've thrown it. in a little bit because I'm like all. right how how does this possibly happen. right how does he keep these perishable. skills yeah and his Fitness up but you. know there's there's actors that like I. really like like Max Martini I don't. know if you knew that is.

um you know him if you saw him he's he. he was in 13 hours it was a really good. movie and. um the Michael Bay film wow look at that. that's amazing. um and so he's you know he's like a. formidable dude and a really good actor. but there's you know he doesn't. I like the physical presence of him yeah. he might be good too because even though. he's kind of recognizable it's not Brad. Pitt like right every time Brad Pitt's. in a movie it's Brad Pitt if that guy's. in a movie you could say oh I think I've. seen that guy in something before but.

but he's Court Gentry yeah exactly well. I got a ton of people mad that Ryan. Gosling was in it before it came out and. they were like you need to get some. unknown guy because nobody recognizes it. and I'm like you probably don't. understand how 200 million dollar movies. work they don't what we're going to do. is we're going to get this guy out and. you know find the guy at the mall and. make him the you know is this just not. how it works it's too bad because I I. don't really know if it makes a. difference I think they think it makes a.

difference but I think if you have a. movie that has an amazing plot and a. great like trailer and it looks wild and. like people I think people get sucked. into it anyway yeah and and honestly. like one of the best films I've ever. seen in my life which is an action film. it's a Korean film called The Man from. Nowhere and it's also and fortunately it. came out after the gray men did. otherwise people would think I'd ripped. off the gray man because it's about a a. former assassin who's trying to lay low.

and he ends up having to rescue this. girl well the book though came so much. earlier than the movie like how many. years was it between you writing the. book and then the film coming out I. wrote the book in 2007 it came out of 09. and it and the film came out in 22 and. so it's like 13 years I was still lucky. you know everybody's like I bet you hate. that you had to wait this long and I'm. like if you know if I was an 85 year old. man and they and they made a film out of. one of my books I'd be thrilled so yeah. it's a it's a rare thing right so. especially a big Blockbuster film with.

Ryan Gosling you're getting this one. there it is there we go Chris Evans is. great in that too yeah he was terrific. yeah he he really played an awesome. version of the character you wrote In. the book yeah and that's a that's an. example of a difference in the film that. I that I liked you know because my Lloyd. in in the book is not like a physical. presence he's more of like the [ __ ]. Master Mastermind of the whole thing. right but I mean obviously if they can. get Chris Evans in their film they're.

gonna beef up his role and and make it a. more monoi mono thing and and I thought. that was fabulous yeah and Chris Evans. just really nailed it he played the. perfect douchebag yeah [ __ ] cocky. confident psychopath yeah it looked like. he was having fun yeah yeah it was great. it was great you've written a lot of. books man and you know like you're super. prolific with these books it's very. impressive you're basically banging out. one what is it every like 10 or 11. months yeah it almost to a year but not.

quite so my first book came out no nine. and burner my new new one is my 23rd. book so. 23 books in 12 years something like that. that's incredible it it's be it's. because they've asked me to do it and. you know I have these opportunities I it. took me 20 years to get published and so. I've been really I've been trying to. catch up I didn't get published till I. was 42 years old and so I'm desperately. trying to like you know make up for lost. time I guess so what were you writing in. all those years when you were a publicly.

just trying and just yeah I mean. honestly I was lazy uh I never believed. Anything could happen from it but I like. to write and I like to think about books. and stuff so I spent 15 years writing my. first novel I started it literally in. 1990 and finished it in 05. wow and. never showed it to anybody I mean of you. know like three friends probably read it. and I put that aside and I wrote my. second book in seven months because it's. like there's something about I always. say everything in this world is. cheapened by my ability to do it you.

know it's like I always wanted to learn. a foreign language and you know I'm not. super fluent any foreign languages but I. speak some German and some Spanish and. uh it's like once once I'd learned to do. it I'm like oh it's not that impressive. because I can freaking do it you know. right and writing a book was the same. way for 15 years it was this big. Albatross on you know on just hanging on. me and I didn't know that I could ever. do it and uh and once I finished it I. was like yeah how hard did I really work. that was mostly talking about you know. writing a book and not actually writing.

books so then I went out and wrote a. book and gray man was actually my fourth. completed novel to get published yeah so. all those years of 15 years it was you. just sort of not being fully committed. to writing or yes that that's in a. nutshell 15 years for that first book. and then I got some momentum like once I. finished it and I thought hey you know. it's the internet was invented while I. was writing the damn thing so I I like. looked up like how do you get published. because I never even looked at that you. know right and then everything I'd done.

in the book was wrong as far as like it. was too big there were too many. characters you know they were just. things they'd recommend again so I am. you know I tried to write something a. little bit more mainstream and I got. that in front of an agent and he said it. wasn't mainstream enough but I was a. good writer so keep trying so it was. just continually falling on my face but. Falling forward you know and and there. was I've had very few epiphanies in my. life I'm not one of those Naval gazing. people but but I had this Epiphany one. day that like okay nothing yeah I was in.

my late 30s I was not successful in my. job worked in a cubicle and I was. destined to do that for the rest of my. life and I was frustrated about not. going anywhere and there was just this. point where I I said I like to write I. like to you know walk down the street. and think about you know some Espionage. theme or something and I like to do. research and I like to type stuff out. and fix it up and it's like okay. nothing's going to come of this but the. thing that's going to come to this is.

you're doing something you enjoy to do. and honestly that just let a lot of. steam out of the kettle and suddenly I. wasn't like I'm a 39 year old man who's. you know has no success and I just. became this guy it's like oh you know I. like writing books and I think each. one's getting a little better and maybe. something will happen someday and and. really quickly I got I mean you know. within a couple years I was I was. published that's amazing so what was. your job uh I worked in I worked for a. company called Medtronic it was a. medical device company and uh I it.

wasn't a dead end dead end job but I was. making it a dead-end job just because it. wasn't really where I wanted to be I. wanted to be a writer and um what were. you doing for them um I worked in uh. International customer care so we had. subsidiaries another it's a medical. device company and we had subsidiaries. in other countries and um I would sort. of get the the supplies to the. subsidiaries and go to trade shows and. that sort of thing so and so when you. left that job did you say hey guys I'm a. published author gotta go yeah so.

there's a story to that that it's it's. my dad had passed away in 2005 and my. dad. um he had a kind of a white collar job. he ran the NBC affiliate in Memphis. where I'm from but he was a very blue. collar mindset and you had to have a job. and there was no way my dad would have. let me quit my job even though I you. know my first book was just a paperback. Mass Market paperback it wasn't a big. relationship it was gray man it turned. into something but when it first came. out it was not a big deal other than the. fact that Hollywood was interested but I.

had this. you know it wasn't quit your job money. at all and then they asked me to write. two more books and in this make a series. out of it which I never even had. considered I was just trying to hold. something in my hand with my name on it. and a title and a cover I wanted to be. you know that level of a published. author I had no higher ambition and they. asked me to continue it as a series and. I said yes and then I realized it's like. oh my God I I've got to crank out three. books in the next whatever number of. months it's like I have to quit my job.

um and it wasn't quit your job money as. I said and this was before the Hollywood. money came in so I went to my boss I'd. been at the company for like nine and a. half years I went to my boss and I put. my notice in on a Wednesday and the next. Monday they brought everybody in to the. auditorium for a meeting you know 800. people there and they're like Hey listen. um like sales are down or the economy. you know since 2009 so you know the. economy is not doing well or whatever so. we're offering voluntary separation if.

you quit your job right now we will give. you a month's pay for every year you've. worked here we will give you insurance. for a year we will do this this and this. I'd quit my job four days before and so. you think like oh my gosh there's this. black cloud over me and I was scared. about quitting my job obviously and uh I. remember my boss came into my cubicle. right afterwards she's like I'm going to. talk to HR and see if they will allow. you to come in I'm like why the hell. would they do that I'm like I'm the best. thing that's happened to HR in a while. you know this is this dummy quits three. days before they offer you a ton of.

money to quit so so for about six months. I just felt like I had this Cloud over. my head and I'd done the stupidest thing. in the world and then the the film film. rights got option for gray man and it. still wasn't quit your job money but it. was like I can eat for a year money and. you know within a couple years I was. working with Tom Clancy and things. started to really go in the right. direction wow that's an amazing story. man I love it it could have gone either. way but isn't that like always how it. works with some of the best stories yeah. that could have gone either way yeah.

yeah yeah there's there's a sad version. of that story too I'm lucky that I I. didn't have to experience that's my. problem when people start talking about. like manifesting your reality and the. secret and stuff like that like yeah you. know talk to people that win and they'll. tell you that story that I knew it was. going to happen and made it happen I had. a vision board talked to people that. tried and failed and are homeless yeah. and they have a different version of. this manifesting reaction Story falling. on my face in so many ways in my life. that like I I recognize how lucky this.

is and I would not you know grab some. kid and go like quit your job be a. writer man it's gonna you know just. because it worked for me in that one. instance doesn't mean it would you know. work in any instance yeah I think the. best inspiration you could give to. someone is just your own success if for. you to tell people to do what you did. it's almost irresponsible right right. right yeah and and I feel like. everything I've learned I've learned by. doing it wrong a few times you know and. so like when I I'm not I'm not like Yoda. I'm not this guy on a mountain like you.

know right telling them it's like yeah. no I've done a lot wrong and what I. might tell you could be totally wrong. but learning how to do stuff that's a. part of the process you do stuff wrong. yeah I mean yeah absolutely you can't be. scared to do things wrong you just. self-correct yeah and keep. self-correcting and hopefully something. good happens before you die yeah it's a. tricky process and it doesn't always. work out but the problem is you're only. hearing from the people where it does. work out sure yeah you know and some. people. look there's a hard reality about Talent.

too like some people just don't have. talent and some people just aren't good. writers yeah there's a lot of people. that go like you know if it's your dream. never quit blah blah blah it's like I'd. love to be a Formula One driver I would. not ever be a Formula One driver you. know it's like I think you sort of have. to like play into your strengths and. obviously work hard and get better but. it's it's not a it's not just you know. follow your your you know your wish it's. a balance like everything in life is a. balance yeah it's not fair and it's it's.

very tricky yeah and the idea that all. you have to do is also like want it bad. enough you know yeah and I used to um. sort of give advice to People based on. my own problems. um you know like earlier in my career so. like a young person will be like what do. I need to do and and I was like I wish I. believe in myself more because I was. very half-assed about everything because. it's like I never thought anything would. come from it but I wanted to write a. book so I'd pick here and pick at it. here and there so I used to tell people. you know believe in yourself believe in.

yourself and then you start learning a. little more about these people and it's. like yeah self-confidence is not this. person's problem it's a lack of talent. it's writing or it's editing or it's. something like that and it's like. they're very very confident so you know. there's not one one size fits all for. like helping people well there's also. confidence versus confidence that's. based on an understanding of your. competence yeah and and your work ethic. and comp confidence that's built up over. time with effort versus delusional.

confidence absolutely and my work ethic. came slowly but by necessity and um and. it's good now and you know I am. prolification as much as you're writing. right long-ass books yeah although I. don't do much else although I have a. family now so. um but yeah it's uh there's there's so. much that I've learned along the way. that's made me a little bit more. disciplined because it's like okay if I. don't average 1200 words a day or. something I'm going to be really far. behind by July and the books due August.

1st so you know it's like I gotta go. bust it out. yeah the first time you you gave someone. one of your books to read like were they. were they all like the gray man like the. early book yeah always the same genre. different variations of the same genre. yeah yeah so did is this something that. you've been interested in in terms of. like the way you read like yeah 100 I. mean I was just a reader like I I don't. have military experience I'm not Jack. Carr or Brad Taylor or any of these.

other guys. um you know I I bartended till I was. like 31. and I had other jobs you know. like I've always had a couple jobs I got. my degree in international relations and. political science but didn't do anything. with it until for 20 something years you. know other than 10 bar with it I guess. wow um so I I read but I read every. Espionage novel military stuff. um uh fiction actually tried to get in. the Air Force at one point and didn't. get in and um I was sort of fascinated.

by that world and I'd read The Economist. when I was 17 years old I had a. subscription that The Economist and U.S. news and World Report and would really. would read all this I was just. interested in that foreign policy and. and that sort of thing. um so I loved it and I and I loved. thinking up you know kind of like wild. crazy stories and big action set pieces. and. um geopolitical this and that so I. Clancy the first book I ever bought in. my life was or thriller I've ever bought. was Patriot Games which was a Tom Clancy.

novel uh I was like 19 years old and uh. and how Wild is it for you to now to be. writing that a quarter Century later he. and I were you know I'm in his house you. know sitting there in his office talking. to him isn't that crazy yeah yeah it. probably could have happened faster if I. if I worked a little bit I worked hard. but maybe you wouldn't because I think. some of the what comes out in your. writing is actual life experience 100. you need some of that 100 that's what I. keep telling myself. so I don't get depressed about not. getting published at 25. well how can. you get depressed you're very successful.

now yeah you can't you know it's funny. how people are right yeah yeah exactly I. was like gonna like the things that are. wrong with what you've done what could I. what could have been but yeah now it's. worked out really well it's really. interesting to me because you seem to be. like a very like mild-mannered sort of a. guy and you write for such a psychopath. yeah yeah it's like do you know about. Robert E Howard Robert E Howard is the. guy who wrote the Conan books oh yeah. and he was. um like you know kind of like a real.

quiet guy who lived with his mom and. committed suicide in his early 30s but. he wrote the most Savage fantasy novels. yeah about Conan the Barbarian yeah and. he did you know all of them while he was. this sort of quiet soft-spoken guy yeah. and yeah I mean there's not necessarily. a correlation you know between one or. the other I I know you know guys that. were Delta Force and there is. mild-mannered uh as possible I mean they.

weren't then I'm sure right when they. were downrange but um you just never. know and then as far as writers go you. know there's there's guys that write. pretty. um you know accurate you know military. or stuff like that I what's different. about my character to some degree I. think is like he's a very empathetic guy. I don't want to make him like this. Square jawed yeah like total badass he. definitely has a screw loose he does his. moral compass you know doesn't Point. true north or whatever but he wants to.

do the right thing at the end of the day. and he's empathetic and uh he's. vulnerable in some ways that some of the. other characters aren't and I think I. think that's helped the series over the. years yeah no I think so too I mean. there's he's got a compass and it's it's. kind of a [ __ ] up Compass but yeah. yeah yeah and one of the books uh I. think it was uh gunmetal gray it was the. sixth book I I remember near the end I. was like. I'm gonna have him do something that. makes sense to him but it's actually the.

readers it's not what the readers are. going to want him to do and and that. that had never come up before and I was. like okay this like if I'm reading this. book I'm going like don't be an idiot. don't you know don't do it that way. don't do you know it's basically the. outcome of the story what he was going. to do with this this guy that he rescued. and I was like but it makes sense to him. so am I okay with having a bunch of. readers mad at me and I'm like you kind. of have to go with your gut and I was. and I said all right I'm going to have. him do what what makes sense in the.

story for the this character the way. that I built him up over six books and. um and I never really got much negative. pushback from that at all so I guess I. guess that was the right decision no I. like that one yeah it's it's just. it's always interesting when you're. reading is so fascinating to me reading. fiction because. someone is creating this world and. you're trusting them with all these. people in this world for it to not mess. with your yourself it doesn't you know.

there's a suspension of disbelief that's. involved in any you know Reading. literature or watching a movie or. anything like that and you just don't. want to mess with it with the point. where someone's reading it going ah come. on yeah yeah that's what you don't want. an all come on moment yeah and you do a. great job of avoiding all come on. moments while you're navigating this. impossible world of this Elite assassin. who somehow another never gets killed. yeah. um thanks for saying that and I really.

know where that came from it came from a. very specific place so I had an agent. interested in me. um when he turned me down on a couple. books but he kept saying you know you're. good write me something else and I wrote. the opening for The Gray Man and um. there's a it's a sniper thing in an. American Helicopter get shot down and. this guy that has nothing to do with the. operation with the American soldiers is. just trying to get out of the Kill Zone. where he's killed somebody and he takes. a sniper shot and kills some of the.

people that killed the Americans and so. I I gave that agent the first 50 pages. of the book I'm still an unpublished. author I'm like will you tell me what. you think he's like uh yeah it's great. that shooting those guys from a mile. away that's really badass but he needs. to save somebody and I'm like wait how's. he going to save somebody he's a mile. away and it's like Al Qaeda you know. since 2007. and um and he's like I don't. know I'm not the writer but he needs to. save somebody so I went back into the. story and I was like well [ __ ] that. doesn't really you know that that's so. implausible but then I'm like all right.

I guess it's my job to sell that and the. whole series was informed by that early. thing because what I do is I create. pretty outlandish things and then work. my ass off to to sell them to the reader. you know and put in put in the real. world stuff the geopolitical stuff put. in all these. um you know explain the hows and the. whys to the best if you can and then at. some point you know the bad guys have to. miss their shots a lot more than the.

good guys missed their shots yeah yeah. so you know it's it is. it's fanciful some people call it gun. porn but at the same time. that's what they call it um but but at. the same time you know there's there's. like a heart to the story and all that. that I'm trying to like pull the pull. the reader into where they don't go this. is just way too out of out of left field. what is your writing process like like. do you do you have ideas before you sit. down and write them do you have like. little notes of maybe that would be fun.

or maybe he could do this and then sit. down and try to piece them all together. like how do you do it yeah I write sort. of by the seat of my pants but I do come. up with some little if even if it's. three pages of what the story is about. you know this book is about artificial. intelligence and Robotics and the bad. guy you know wants to destroy America or. whatever and then you flesh that out a. little more and a little more and then. at some point and this is what I always. recommend to writers is just sit down. and start writing and you'll figure what.

your story is about and if you if you. don't have any blueprint then I think. you're going to get yourself in trouble. but I mean everybody's different I know. some authors that they have every. chapter completely plotted out and. everything and then they just go and. write a chapter a day because they've. spent months plotting it out and I I. kind of have to find the story in the. story so I'm writing in you know the. dialogue two characters talking to each. other and I'm like well there's no. tension here I have to create some. tension and you come up with some reason.

there's tension between these two people. and then that informs another part of. the story and then sooner or later. you've got a book every every book I'm. not a super confident writer so every. book it's you know spring early summer. is the biggest piece of crap in the. world and then sometimes somehow by. August I get it turned in and edited by. October and I'm happy with it I'm proud. of it but my friend Ari has a little. piece of paper on his laptop it's a. quote by Ernest Hemingway it says every. first draft is [ __ ] yeah yeah I I I I've.

said That's good I've said it if I died. when one of my books is like 98 done. it's unusable like then they wouldn't be. able to fix it I don't know if that's. true or not but like you know as a. writer you know where all the bodies are. buried in 160 000 word books yeah that. would make sense and this connection. here isn't there and so like it kind of. like weighs on you until you get. everything cleaned up to the best invest. you in yes Stephen King said he doesn't. really have an outline yeah I believe it. sits down and starts writing yeah he's. amazing he is just another species yeah.

I'm so impressed well certainly in the. early days of his career right the early. days of his career to me it's the most. interesting and this is not to disparage. people that are clean and sober is not. to disparage the idea of getting clean. and sober you definitely should do that. your health is more important than. anything yeah but yeah when that guy was. [ __ ] up he was writing some amazing. [ __ ] yeah yeah and he he he can create a. genre but he created a genre yeah you.

know it's like and he did the output was. so much even in his later years I don't. know if you've ever read 11 22 63 no oh. my God it's a magnificent book yeah it's. about a high school teacher who goes. back in time to stop the Kennedy. assassination but you know chaos ensues. it's a Stephen King novel so you can. imagine and it's probably seven or eight. hundred pages and uh yeah it's it's. really fascinating it's a recent book uh. yeah it's been like eight or nine years. they actually made a TV series I think.

on Hulu with James Franco. um which was actually which was actually. really good um but yeah that book is is. fabulous the series is good too no I. mean some of his early stuff like The. Shining or Cujo or pet cemetery or uh. the Tommy knockers yeah yeah like my God. yeah I remember sitting getting light to. the theater for pet cemetery and sitting. in the front row and just regretting. that decision because it was like so. intense. um but yeah Cujo and Carrie and he said.

he doesn't even remember writing Cujo. because he was so [ __ ] up was it. cocaine and booze yeah just getting lit. his his book on writing is is really. inspirational yeah because he he didn't. have instant success even though he got. published when he was really young he's. trying really hard for a long time and. yeah you know he had to feed a family. and all that stuff too so yeah the story. about when he got the first check like. how crazy that was yeah yeah he realized. oh my God yeah I have uh incredible. respect for him because you know a lot. of authors.

um have co-authors and whatever as as. they get older and. um you know it's just harder to come up. with new stuff than something you. haven't done before well as you get. older too you lose your juice yeah you. know you lose your physical juice you. lose your Vitality you lose your energy. you're yeah sadly my um my my. concentration levels at this point in my. life is not what it was 15 years ago. when the only thing com competing with. me writing my book was my Xbox you know. when I was off work or whatever right. and uh you know now it's kids and dogs.

and uh you know travel and you know. other obligations and so when I do have. like a three hour pocket of time to. write it's real easy to kind of lose. focus and I'm like wow I remember going. to Starbucks at 8 30 in the morning on a. Saturday and staying until nine at night. you know and it's like can't do that. anymore I wish I could if I did that for. a couple weeks I'd have a book now yeah. they just you don't really have that my. friend Steve rinella talks about this as. well like he was at the peak of his. writing when he was a single man before. he had a family and you know when he was. alone he could do whatever he wanted to.

he could just like literally just sit in. front of a computer for 16 hours in a. day and just drink coffee and just get. it done yeah yeah I mean that was me you. know I lived alone I didn't get I I've. been married on my second marriage but I. didn't get married the first time until. I was 47. so. um you know I was in my I was published. and that had several books out before I. got married and so the first marriage. you were 47 yeah you look like you're 45. now how long ago was this uh how old are.

you I'll be 56 in July really yeah. you're [ __ ] great man thanks man I. appreciate that how do you look so young. uh what are you doing it was probably. because I didn't have kids in my life. until about two years ago now I have. three wonderful step kids though um what. am I doing I'm I don't know I mean I. think a lot of it's genetic I mean I. exercise. you know I don't. I don't really I don't do dairy or. gluten but that that's pretty recent so. well whatever it is you're on to a good. thing or you got great jeans so what is.

your process like do you have a daily. routine where you start every day like. how do you how do you do you go for. walks before you write like I know a lot. of people do things like that yeah. charge the brain up yeah I I like to. start writing as soon as I possibly can. when I wake up which used to be five in. the morning. um I wrote my first book you know when I. when I had a full-time job and I wrote. it between like 5 30 and 7 30 at. Starbucks over a six month period. um now you know there might be carpool.

or something else where I don't get. started but I I have a detached we have. like a pool house that's my office at my. house and so it's 30 steps Out My Back. Door and it's a completely different. experience it's like being in you know. it's like being somewhere else and. nobody bugs me or whatever and so I like. to get in there as as quickly as. possible look at as few emails as. possible I mean you kind of look and see. if things are okay you know there's. chaos that you need to attend to but if. there's not and I like to start writing. and I will write in the mornings I it's.

only when I'm like way on Deadline and. I'm going to be overdue where I will. write in in the afternoons too so I I. try to write seven or eight till noon or. something like that and then that's done. I'm done with my writing for the day. I'll do other stuff I'll take the dogs. to the park and I think about the books. when I'm doing that and I'm always. jotting stuff down and files for the. books so you know there's a lot of you. ask anybody in my family there's times. where I'm just sort of not 100 there at.

the dinner table for a minute because. I'm thinking about well wait what if. what if that all happened in Singapore. you know. um so my brain resides there even when. I'm not working but I I try and like. right now my writing goal is 1500 words. a day. um didn't hit it today yet. um but that's gonna get me a book by the. summer and I have two books to write. this year so then the next book should. be done by December and uh that's. hopefully that works and so uh a lot of.

guys do that same thing that you're. talking about like the there's a process. after you're done writing where you're. thinking about the writing of the day. and then you just sort of jot stuff down. yeah and a lot of guys like to like I. said go for walks or you you like to. take the dogs to the park yeah we have a. big 100 Acre off leash dog park where I. live a few minutes from my house and um. those 40 minutes or so where I'm got the. dogs out there. um if if I'm by myself I will. usually be like really focused on on the.

book or or doing some sort of like. audiobook research for the book or. something like that yeah. and then you're always thinking of the. next book you have to write so I have. another book to write this year and so. I'm trying to plot that out just in my. head for now not write anything down. um in the downtime when I'm not thinking. about the book that I'm writing now do. you drink coffee I drink a lot of coffee. yeah yeah yeah that helps yeah I had a. buddy of mine who started snorting. Adderall right and his wife was like. what the [ __ ] are you doing does it work. I gotta get this done look at me I'm.

like does it work apparently it does yes. I don't know but his wife had a real. problem with it yeah I guess it was the. snorting I think he just took the. Adderall it's like I want it to work. quick yeah I've I I've tried Adderall. because some people told me it was you. know I got a prescription for it and um. it just made me feel kind of wacky and. uh and I remember one time I took. Adderall I'm like yeah I was really. focused I took all of my fire logs off. the fire log holder and swept that thing.

up and put all the fire logs back it's. like meanwhile I've got to write a book. yeah people say it makes you clean yeah. that's what it made me do and so it was. not I'm always looking for something you. know like B vitamins I've tried that and. you know I'm always trying to something. that will kind of keep me in the in the. game a little bit more you ever tried. marijuana no no uh no it might help your. creativity really yeah oh it puts you in. Wild states of mind yeah but for this. kind of book like the only time I've. ever really had it was kind of.

embarrassing I'm saying this impressed. so many people was uh when uh it was. like put in like lime squares and I. didn't nobody told me and oh no I like. half a tray of lime squares so I had to. paranoia thing like an absolute freak. out paranoia you don't want that I. didn't first of all that's a different. drug when you're eating it it's very. different than when you're smoking when. you're eating it your body produces. something called 11-hydroxy metabolite. it's like a five times more psychoactive. than THC so it's processed by your liver. it's called the one pass and when when.

that happens you trip balls yeah like. that's why when people eat Edibles. they're like oh it doesn't I think some. it's laced yeah that's why they think. that it's because it's a completely. different drug than smoking it yeah when. you're smoking you're getting THC yeah. but when you're eating it like the. 11-hydroxy metabolite it's not you don't. get it from smoking it yeah so it's a. totally different experience yeah that. was my own experience and I was not a. good experience it wasn't a good one I. was down in Florida at the time and I'd. gotten jellyfish that day like in the. leg and it went back to the the room and.

ate all these lime squares that somebody. else has made and uh and then I was like. oh my God I'm gonna die from a jellyfish. thing because I felt like I was dying. for like. all night I mean it lasted like hours. and hours and hours can jellyfish kill. you in America did we have jellyfish. they can kill I don't think so I bet I. wasn't I wasn't working on good. information I know when I was in. Australia they'll warn you they're like. that box jellyfish will [ __ ] kill you. I bet there are there's those blue. bottles in Hawaii they won't kill you.

but it's so painful they have a string. that's like five or six feet long and I. was in Hawaii and I had one like wrapped. around my leg in my arm and oh it hurts. so bad yeah my daughter when she was. really young got stung in Costa Rica we. were swimming in Costa Rica and she got. yeah what do we got here box jellyfish. can kill a person within minutes yes but. I don't think they're in the United. States are they I typed in it's Florida. some jellyfish from Florida no [ __ ] wow. Florida has several species including. those pictures that stink yeah but.

um breathing difficulties shock and even. death oh jellyfish in Florida can kill. you I need to use that book so maybe you. were almost dying yeah maybe it wasn't. maybe it wasn't the lime squares really. like it was probably the lime squares. and the poison that was in your system. yeah yeah I didn't know that Florida. jellyfish can how many people died they. probably go I guess let's Google how. many people die a year from jellyfish in. Florida. probably only Florida right like you're. going to ruin my family vacation.

I'm going to guess three yeah three. people a year. Florida Central Florida. three people died from jellyfish. overall in the country I don't even know. if it's the country. a hundred people overall die from. jellyfish. yeah I don't think it's that common. that's more than sharks you know that's. right my wife is totally I scuba dive. and I've got two of my kids certified. and uh and my wife is deathly afraid of. sharks I'm like I swim with sharks all.

the time I mean I'm there's certain. sharks that if it appeared next to me. I'd crap my pants but my buddy Duncan. was in Hawaii and the week he was there. uh a woman got killed by yeah this year. yeah right yeah like yeah the guy and. his wife were scuba diving and uh. apparently the guy pops up for air they. were snorkeling guy pops up for here and. they're yelling get out of the water get. out of the water so he runs to get out. of the water and then realizes it was. his wife oh my God yeah and looks back. and they apparently they saw just blood.

in the water and thrashing and they. never found her body no body good guy. yeah they found part of her bathing suit. or something I think it's it's horrible. but it's so rare you know it's [ __ ] rare. if you found out that there were. werewolves that werewolves were real. would you ever go in the woods at night. even even when it wasn't a full moon. you'd be like [ __ ] that yeah but. meanwhile sharks are real and. everybody's like whoa it's so rare yeah. well I mean a dog can kill you but I'm. not afraid of dog I don't know it's. that's true I haven't seen the the right.

shark maybe you know I've been around a. bunch of uh you know like reef sharks. and. mostly stuff like that I feel like you. can give a dog your arm and then cut his. neck you could kill a dog yeah yeah you. know you'll get [ __ ] up but you can. kill a dog yeah shark you're on their. territory so you are limited my dog's. got a collar I'm gonna strangle them. yeah but if it's a shark you can't even. move good yeah. yeah first time I went diving on an.

actual shark feed and I was it only had. 15 Dives or whatever everybody else was. a lot more experienced than me that I. was just on a dive boat with and right. before that they're like okay you know. the sharks are fine just don't provoke. them I'm like cool I'm gonna jump in the. water and you're down underwater where. you can't talk to anybody and ask any. questions and I was like I should have. asked if eye contact was a provocation. you know it's like God I wish I could. get back up there and ask that question. but I was not making eye contact I think. sharks are so simple-minded I don't even. think they understand what eye contact. is I think they're just like.

they're zombies man yeah they're they. scare the [ __ ] out of me yeah because. they're just feeding machines that's all. they're doing is just they're the. cleanup crew of the ocean yeah anything. weak anything that's [ __ ] up anything. that's slipping yeah time to go anything. that dies you're down there at one of. those shark feeds where they have all. this Chum and a big ball and like. hundreds of sharks and and there's times. where like they're above you and there's. the boat and then there's like 50 sharks. and you're kind of down in the ocean. floor going like I'll wait for them to. you know move on if we played a video.

the other day Jamie pulled up of this. guy that's in one of those shark cages. yeah and this great white just bursts. through the bottom of it it literally. almost takes his leg off yeah I have no. plans to dive in South Africa or. wherever. crazy those are some big pictures like I. know you like Thrills but please one of. the cool things about sharks though is. you get your picture in the water with a. shark and you can't tell if the shark if. it's behind you you can't tell if it's. three feet long right it still looks. like you know it's still a massive thing.

yeah it should be a three foot long. shark it's like Jesus yeah Mark's so. brave exactly yeah it's um so do you do. anything else that's like kind of psycho. like that. no I you know I. train with Firearms a lot. um have you always done that no that was. really to get involved with uh you know. the writing yeah to learn about the. writing and I started um training. probably 2005 four or five something. like that and where do you train do you.

train like a tactical Place yeah it's. been in different places but I've done. most my training at a place in Middle. Tennessee called tactical response and. you know back at that point they were. training a lot of civilian contractors. and so I took a you know you take pistol. an advanced pistol and rifle and Advance. rifle and um this and that and then. there's these things called like you. know hrcc high-risk civilian contractor. classes and I took a bunch of those and. they're like a week long and you stay in. the bunk house or the team rooms with.

the guys and I and I learned really. quick that like it's cool to learn about. the guns and the gear and stuff for your. books but it's so much more impactful to. sit there in the team room and drink. Scotch with you know SWAT guys or fifth. Special Forces Group dude or or what. whatever you know it's like he's been. there done that guys contractors. Blackwater guys. um back then and uh and so you know I. don't I feel like I kind of became a. mascot of that school I probably took 50. classes they probably spent close to you.

know a couple hundred days uh there in. Tennessee and I've done some other. training. um I own a bunch of the firearms that. are in the in the books and uh and like. to train when I can it's less and less. as you get older and and uh busier and. more family and all that kind of stuff. yeah but but I really do want to get. back into it even more so when you were. talking to these uh Special Forces guys. did you let them know that you're. writing that you write the gray man yeah.

yeah and um. early on I mean I actually heard the. term The Gray Man at one of these. classes from from a guy I think it was a. contractor which is just they would say. you know be the gray man who's just like. not wear the tactical gear and the 511. pants and the wireless X glasses and the. Luminox watches or whatever because. they're traveling into the Middle East. and you know the airport in Dubai or. something like that they Al-Qaeda would. have like Watchers there you know seeing.

who's coming in and things like that so. and if you're there with Solomon boots. on looking yeah exactly you got yourself. rifle coffee t-shirt yeah exactly you're. kind of self-identifying yeah yeah. um so it was all about like not doing. that and and that's kind of in my. character it's expanded to where he. basically you know invisible man yeah. yeah um. balancing the the. incredulity like balancing the the. plausible aspects of the story is that.

difficult to like because you've got a. guy who's like constantly involved in. gunfights and knife fights and people. are throwing knives at him he's jumping. out of [ __ ] buildings and it's like. there's so much chaos yeah yeah I always. there always has to be a kernel of some. reality in it you know in um in cr6 the. book that you're writing now there's a. big scene that uh takes place on. scaffolding yeah and and I got through. that already yeah and so I was in you.

know Hong Kong I wasn't in India where. it took place because this was. pre-coveted I was in Hong Kong. researching a Clancy novel and um and I. saw the scaffolding and I went up to it. and I climbed up on part of it and I. looked around you know and I was like. okay if you cut this then this ought to. do this now I wouldn't do it you know. because it's six stories but in in the. first gray man book um he has to have. basically surgery or he has to get. suture up while he's driving get his gut. sutured up and and I talked to uh you. know a special forces medic and talked.

about doing that and the plausibility of. that and going into shock and all these. other things and a lot of people kind of. complain about it said that's so. impossible that's so impossible and I'm. like yeah but if you read the book again. he passes out while it happens and. crashes the car it's like it was not. perfectly successful you know it was. like he didn't come out it wasn't like. he's just like yeah sew me up while I. drive people can do wild [ __ ] under. pressure oh yeah like to say that that's. not possible I I read about a guy I. believe it was in Antarctica who was a.

doctor who had to take his own appendix. out unbelievable and I think he might. have done it with no anesthesia I don't. find out that because there's video of. it or photos of it of this doctor like. literally on the operating table cutting. himself. the man who cut out his own appendix. so unbelievable yeah so there's photos. of this gentleman on the operating table. doing his own a pen there right there. like look at that unbelievable I like.

how he gave himself a mask. like hey bro it's you. he tended to use a mirror to help him. operate but he found that it's inverted. to view too much of a hindrance so he. ended up working by Touch without gloves. how crazy is that I would feel like I'd. talk somebody else through it before I. do it myself but I don't know I mean I I. guess he didn't trust anybody else yeah. I wonder what finally here it is the. cursed appendage. wow with har I noticed a dark strain at.

dark stain at its base. that means just a day longer and it. would have burst my heart seized up and. noticeably slowed my hands felt like. rubber well I thought it's going to end. badly and all that was left was removing. the appendix. wow for two hour operation. down to the final Stitch Tom Clancy had. a saying that the difference between. fiction and non-fiction is fiction has. to make sense yeah and like if I'd. written that in a book people would just.

laugh laugh me off and you know there. was a Navy SEAL that was shot 18 times. and uh survived and you know if I had my. hero shot 18 times and survived no one. would ever remake shot like nine times. yeah yeah yeah oh no 50 Cent 50 Cent but. Tupac was two but he was shot a bunch of. times yeah but he died not from that. time but he survived one of those. shootings right but he wasn't shot like. nine times. both both are correct I believe yeah.

there was a there was a guy I think in. New York that was shot 20 times by the. police with 40 caliber pistols and he. survived they used 40s in New York they. were then wow yeah isn't it funny like. there's there's some talk on that like. why they use such a high caliber like. are you trying to shoot somebody or not. like yeah like I don't understand like. do you want to give the cops all 22s. yeah what are you saying yeah if 22. they're gonna shoot them 12 times that's.

the same difference same amount of lead. you know it's like yeah you're trying to. stop a threat whatever tool you need. yeah it's um do you get people that are. upset that you are doing gun porn or. that you're doing these yes. um sometimes yes uh you know just people. that read the book and say you know it's. too violent blah blah blah and it and. it's just not what they were looking for. and so I'm always kind of scratching my. head at these reviews I'm like why did. you spend 300 why did you read 350 pages. is of a book that was not what you liked.

you know I I might not want to read a. book about butterflies and I wouldn't be. like 293 Pages going I'm going to write. a scathing review about a book I don't. want to read that is a problem with. people that write reviews on almost. anything because when someone will enjoy. something and they want to go see that. something that's their genre that's the. thing they're interested in yeah then. they're going to write a review based on. someone who actually enjoys the genre. yeah but you get a lot of reviewers who. are just reviewing things that they have. no interest in at all yeah I and they.

write these horrible negative reviews. and it's like who are you trying to. convince people to think exactly like. you weren't going to like it anyway yeah. I guess it's such a weird way to write. things Jack all right jack Carr and I. had this conversation with his podcast. once where he was we were talking about. the the reader or the viewer reviews of. our shows terminalists and gray man yeah. and then the the like professional. reviews or whatever and yes and the the. people that watched it loved it overall. the reviewers hated it but I mean.

they're gonna hate stuff like that of. course I mean to a large degree not not. everything you know there's some things. that that you know somehow universally. love but but I said to Jack I was like. which would you rather have the 23. reviewers all of it or the you know 100. million million people that watch it. watch it yeah 100 yeah that's a great. way to look at it you know who's a good. example of that is that Adam Sandler. all get destroyed by the critics yeah. yeah but I think they're [ __ ] right I.

love his they're so silly and I love. that I watch them with my kids yeah and. they're like they're easy to digest like. even the Zohan which is like a little. racy hilarious yeah gets torn apart by. the critics yeah and I think his stuff. does really well and of course it does. and and he's just doing something. different than what the the critics I. remember uh David Lee Roth once said the. reason that. um. you know like critics all hated him and. they all loved Elvis Costello's because.

all the critics look like Elvis Costello. which I don't know if that's true well. that is a part of it right Elvis. Costello was like the nerdy guy with the. glasses and he wasn't the good-looking. guy who had all the chicks with them his. open shirt yeah yeah and David Lee Roth. was this stud it was doing Karate kicks. on stage yeah there's there's sour. grapes involved at certain places in. certain places I mean people can hate my. books for a million different reasons. and and that doesn't make them wrong but. but it's also The Narrative of the. critic was always so much more important. than it is now because now The Narrative.

of the critic gets drowned out by The. Narrative of the fans yeah absolutely. for better or worse and I think it's for. better yeah because you you get people. that aren't professional critics you. just get informed readers who enjoy it. or don't enjoy it and then they share. that that like whenever I go to an. Amazon book review and I click on the. reviews I just read the reviews like. some of them are remarkably well written. yeah you know oh yeah you see people. that are passionate about your even if. even if they're criticizing something.

yes. um you know I I've always had this. philosophy it's like if you read my book. if you if you spend the 12 hours to read. that book or whatever it takes it's like. you get to you get to share your opinion. with whoever you want you know it's like. I I can't begrudge that um sometimes. I'll disagree with what they say. sometimes I'll agree with it the worst. negative reviews are the ones where it's. like oh this guy this guy he's got it. you know I like I like it when they're. just [ __ ] you know they're just like. oh this guy's just this guy's nobody. yeah but then sometimes you're going.

like oh he sees me he's he sees the. darker those guys are really good. because like they the the if someone who. can really see it and then they expose. something that makes you uncomfortable. that gives you an opportunity to get. better yeah yeah to think about it yeah. that does happen to me for sure yeah I. feel like the real problem with critics. is that most critics wish they were. writers but they just don't have. anything to contribute they're just not. good and so they try try to tear down. other people's work whether it's film. critics or movie critics or even.

stand-up comedy critics they're just. they just they don't have anything to. contribute so they're bitter and. negative yeah they don't want to be. critics like nobody sits out and says. like I really want to be a Critic of. other people's work yeah no most people. that are critics like when you're. writing an article a criticism article. or writing an editorial you are a. creative you're being creative but the. predominant creativity involved in. criticism is like this negative [ __ ]. creative right energy yeah yeah that's.

not attractive if you're trying to make. something yeah it's only attractive when. you're tearing something down absolutely. so the energy that these people have. this like bitter shitty energy yeah it. sucks for writing something unique and. individual like and creative like coming. up with your own book yeah but it's good. for tearing apart other people's stuff. and it really like snarky way yeah I've. been saying that for years and years but. never as eloquently I like I'm gonna I'm. gonna watch this later and right now. what you just said because I I have said. like you you'll read a review and just.

to make the review a better little piece. of writing for them they basically. change the story you know like you know. there's basically really disingenuous. stuff in there right not every review. obviously but um but that happens. sometimes and I'm going like oh okay as. a writer I know how you wanted to make. these two paragraphs like like really. impactful here so you just told some. [ __ ] about my story that it's not. even in the story right yeah they're. just not good yeah it's what it is. you're you're getting it's it's like.

non-athletes talking [ __ ] about athletes. yeah like you get that in the Sports. World yeah you get like these basketball. commentators online and then like doing. podcasts and doing these shows where. they're just talking crazy [ __ ] about. these players and they can't [ __ ]. play yeah yeah they're not players yeah. you get that in the fighting world too. you get these people that are talking. [ __ ] about Fighters and like you can try. yeah shut the [ __ ] yeah they can be.

proved wrong a lot faster than somebody. could prove yeah a Critic wrong about. writing yeah yeah the writing thing. though it's I mean that's it's a human. nature thing it's a tall poppy thing you. know it's uh crabs in a bucket tearing. down people that are more successful. than you if you're especially if you're. a Critic you are a writer you're. involved in the genre of writing don't. tell me you don't want to write. something unique and creative because. you certainly do yeah like I remember. Roger Ebert.

um who's you know Cisco and Eber classic. he wrote one of the worst [ __ ]. screenplays it's so bad and so crazy. that you read it and you're like oh wow. okay yeah now I get it yeah it just now. I know why you're a Critic yeah you're. this like frustrated creative type yeah. who didn't have the juice to write. something that was actually good it's. what is the the screenplay that Roger. Ebert it's really weird I read like many.

pages of it like this is crazy and you. can just sort of discount everything. that he says he's horrible. it's so bad it says he co-wrote Beyond. the Valley of the Dolls which I don't. yeah but what did he write he wrote. something by himself. uh. uh man I wrote Robert screenplay says. there's a couple screenplays yeah. there's so what Robert wants your Google. Robert Ebert terrible screenplay. I mean this doesn't give me four four.

answers Beyond the Valley of the Dolls. who killed Bambi softcore sex comedy. maybe that's it. there's one of them that's kind of. perverted without I mean that would be. that that's probably it. yeah a man named uh Adolf Schwartz Adolf. Hitler in hiding this is it oh my God. was living in a bavarian-style castle in. Northern California after an orgy in the. dungeon with three women.

and a man he is murdered when someone. places a ravenous piranha fish in his. bathtub this is a [ __ ] Dumbest A. voluptuous woman named Margo Winchester. appears later in the town uh in the. nearby Town Miranda and is spotted by. local sheriff Homer Johnson he tries to. make advances but Margot Rejects. flirtatiously at this point after that. she is picked up by Leonard box a known. troublemaker and Son of a sawmill. operator an argument breaks out the.

result that Leonard subdues and rapes. the unconscious Margot after she. accidentally kills him. what. sounds. oh okay based on an original idea by. yeah he's out of his [ __ ] mind he was. out of his [ __ ] it was apparently. it's so bad like the Beyond people would. have read it and like what the [ __ ] is. wrong with you yeah but it makes you. understand like oh yeah okay this is why. you're so snarky chip on your shoulders. yeah yeah yeah it was it's a strange.

thing to be a Critic of stuff yeah you. know because it's like it is a kind of. unfocused energy like this yeah and it's. it's so much stuff is subjective I mean. that doesn't mean I don't have we all. have opinions right right so it's like. even though something's subjective I can. go wow I don't like that at all but I. don't it's not that I objectively don't. like it it's not like it's like these. four words should not be you know. usually if you're published you're able. to write a sentence you know. um it's just I think people are very. much entitled to their own opinion don't.

get me wrong but what I think is that. this the the model of the professional. critic I think it has so many problems. with it and I'm sure there's people out. there that are professional critics that. are very good and don't don't this is. not a blanket statement but I think. we're better served by the. unprofessional by the actual person. who's just an intelligent person who is. a fan of the work who reads the book and. then can write a little Amazon review or.

some other critique about it that's. where or a tweet about it that's what I. think is more valuable and in in the. aggregate too so you say like you know. this many people liked it right you know. and um each individual review you can. sort of like maybe throw away the top. and the bottom ones yeah it's like. somebody tells me that I'm the best. writer since Frederick Forsyth or. whatever and I go like all right I'm. just counting you but somebody says hey. I really loved your book it was fun you. know yeah like okay that that I'm. accepting and somebody that says you're.

you know the worst thing that ever lived. you know I'm like I can discount you but. there's there's levels of criticism. where I'm like crap I can't discount. that yeah well those are valuable though. right yeah sure it's like it like if you. crowd sourced all the opinions the. problem is you can game that yeah right. if a person's problematic like if you're. going to crowdsource a JK Rowling's book. today yeah well that the the thing about. the criticisms it would be overrun by. people who are like trans activists you.

were angry at her for her stance on. women being women sure that that becomes. a problem and I've said that often about. fights that maybe we should crowdsource. the scoring instead of having these. people that are professional judges. because some of them they get it so. wrong yeah yeah and some some scoring is. so some like you'll you see like 49 47. 49 47 and then you'll see one that is. just like 50 45. watching a different.

fight how are you watching the same. fight you're so different than everyone. else that scored it yeah but then the. crowdfund thing is like then you could. game the system and have your fans yeah. like vote and say you won fight when. maybe you didn't and I'm sure that. happens I have a lady that I'm going the. whole story but I have a lady that. makes an Amazon review every year when. my book comes out because she hates me. oh boy she's gonna be like my number one. fan and then she told another author.

it's like I heard you wrote you're. writing Mark rainey's books now or. whatever and then so I emailed her I was. like hey uh I write my own books and. authors don't love it when people are. saying they don't and she just came at. me with this rage and this was seven. eight years ago and I still hear from. her and it's F off and die and stuff. like that she'll send me emails and. she's she says a review a one star. review on every one of my books is from. this woman named Cheryl and and it's. just sort of like you know he's he lives.

in a mansion now which I don't and uh. you know it's like at one point one of. the reviews she's like I understand why. his first wife left him which she didn't. but you know and you're going like all. right I guess I guess I'm always going. to be skewed I mean 15 000 reviews but I. mean it's just funny that this person. like has a beef with me and they're. going to take it to their grave and I. guess I just got lives in a mansion now. is hilarious what are you supposed to do. when you get successful stay in your. shitty [ __ ] apartment I don't want to. hear from you yeah drive that Volvo yeah.

yeah Drive yeah it's it's kind of funny. that people just want you to be. like if you become too successful they. want you to be out of touch yeah or they. they see they see something in the book. that they think is political which I. don't think is political at all one of. the Clancy books um these people and I. think they were like militiam people. were started emailing me and they were. and they they kept saying like you know. U.S West Coast liberals don't understand. blah blah blah and I'm like I lived in. Tennessee in freaking Memphis I'm.

sitting in a Starbucks with a gun on my. hip and a gun on my ankle and it was. sort of like you [ __ ] West Coast. liberals don't understand anything and. I'm going like okay all right well. people want to have a narrative that. suits their their ideas of what you are. and what you should be and who they are. and who they yeah so it's like you're. not going to make everybody happy it's. absolutely impossible and some people. will get you totally wrong yeah they. just they'll just come up with some. complete yeah false Narrative of who you.

are and what you're doing why you're. doing it and the fact that you're faking. it or you're being paid off right you. know like yeah yeah you're a. propagandist and oh yeah I've gotten the. emails where people are essentially. saying I'm they think I'm in the. Illuminati or something and I'm like. yeah I barely got through high school I. went through I went to public school and. got crappy grades and I went to you know. like State College or and you know it's. like I'm not trying to sell myself out. as anything bigger than I am I'm just. trying to write the Illuminati that's. hilarious yeah that's a big one you're.

in the Illuminati okay how do you get in. there there's an inverse correlation. between how well there's a positive. correlation between how long someone's. email is and how crazy they are so it's. like oh it's a Manifesto oh okay you. know it's like the quick ones are like. hey I really enjoyed your book you know. but then the the non-quick ones are the. ones that are like three pages of like. ipso ipso facts though that's a good tip. off when someone writes that yeah I've. never used that word in my life. yeah.

yeah well you know it's part of the. beauty of uh dealing with the general. public you're going to get a certain. amount of crazy people yeah I appreciate. them yeah it's okay yeah but the some. people like that though if you do. somehow I know they get in contact with. them and you communicate with them they. realize oh you're just a person yeah it. happens to me all the time weird like. have you met people that were famous and. you freaked out and you like weirded out. around them yeah I mean yeah but you. know kept it to myself but it takes a. while before like uh one of the people.

that I met that I was like really. weirded out was Anthony Bourdain oh I'll. never forget this is hilarious yeah. because uh I used to love that show no. reservation just to watch it religiously. yeah and my wife was like oh you're. watching your boyfriend she was always. joking around right and so I meet him. yeah and I'm Starstruck right and I say. my wife says you're my boyfriend. and he's like what the [ __ ]. thinks I'm a [ __ ] idiot yeah oh no. and I eventually became good friends. with him and it was cool it was nice.

yeah yeah it was uh it was like. you know it was one of those things. where it's like okay like I I have a. phone that I'm never gonna get rid of. because it was like the last one that I. texted with them on wow yeah send me. stuff yeah yeah it was just one of those. things where it's like I had to get over. the fact that it was this guy that I. admired right and then here he is yeah. and now I'm friends with him yeah you. know am I eating with them and stuff. we're drinking like this is crazy yeah. you know it's just it's weird like. famous people were weird it's it's a. strange thing but as a famous person I.

realized like did you we're just all the. same right we're all just people right. it's just something weird happens when. so many people know about you yeah yeah. and and what I used to think. um. before I had any you know people knew. who I was I used to think like the. really successful people turn to. [ __ ] because they're not they're not. as friendly they don't reach out you. know but now it's like I'll get like you. know. 90 people a day sending me some sort of. thing on social media or an email or. something like that and there's people. that if I don't respond to them.

immediately they're like oh you know I. guess you're too good you know you know. and it's not me being an [ __ ] you get. a little bit protective because because. one out of 100 of them can ruin your. life yeah there's a guy who who'll watch. this so who knows he'll probably wear my. skin as a suit now it'd be all your. fault but um now he he thinks that he is. the gray man and he tells he tells me. you know about how we had met and he. gave me the idea for the story and it's.

been going on for years and I don't I. replied to him the first couple times. like yeah I don't think we met but he he. saw something I said publicly about. where I got the idea for the story and I. was down in El Salvador and when I got. the idea and he's like I met you at a. bar and I saw it it's like right out of. an interview you know and he's been. doing it for years and I'm I'm not sure. like he's like I don't want money I just. want you to tell me that you know that. it's me or something yeah well there's a. lot of people that are schizophrenic. yeah yeah I mean there's a certain. percentage of the population I think. it's like one percent or something like. that that is just schizophrenic period. no matter what you do yeah it's just the.

wiring of the brain I had a guy call my. then like 90 year old aunt at five in. the morning looking for my number. because she was in the phone book in. Memphis and I wasn't in the phone book. in Memphis and she's like I need his. number I need his number and uh and so I. figured out who it was because you know. there's a short list of people that were. like being a little weird and uh and I. figured out who it was and I was like. look man you um you know I'm going to. Cops you do this again and he said. instead of him saying sorry he's like I. hope you see that the links that I went.

to to reach you uh shows you. how intense I feel about this project. that we can work on together it's like. no no I I it what I see is that you. called my aunt at five in the morning. and tried to berate her into giving me a. phone well I think there's also a thing. that people don't understand if they're. not doing what you do where you are so. busy you're so involved in your work and. this idea that another person who's not.

busy who is obsessed with doing. something with you somehow or another. can talk you into that you're like I. don't have the bandwidth there's no room. for you there's no time there's no. nothing there's no way right I don't. have any time for anything yeah people. want me you know they're like oh I've. got a story for you you're going to want. to write this book and it's like and my. Pat answer I don't usually reply to them. now but my Pat answer was like just as. you are passionate about that idea I. have ideas of my own about which I'm. passionate and that's what I'm working. on right now but even people you know.

they're like will you read my book or or. whatever and I blur people's books all. the time but I'm like is it the same for. you or it takes a couple weeks of your. free time to read a book are you asking. for a couple weeks of my free time you. know and it's like I do things to help. people you know if there's some sort of. connection or personal but like you just. can you know I can either be I can. either be the guy that publishes 300 000. words a year or I can be the guy that. reads the books when when people you. know have have ideas well I don't think. anybody who is not in this sort of.

public sphere has any understanding of. how many people are coming at you yeah. with projects and ideas and on any given. day like I can't keep up with the text. messages from people that I know yeah. like my friends it's impossible yeah I'm. missing out on opportunities like with. with people that I've been friends with. my whole life and I feel like a jerk I. don't even mean opportunities I mean I. can't respond and to all the text. messages I get and then I have to answer. emails I can't respond to those yeah. there's [ __ ] too many yeah it's like.

I don't have the you would I would. literally have to have another life. right to just interact clone yourself. yeah to have us like a separate me yeah. that just interacts with people on. social media interacts with people and. email interacts with people in text. messages it's just not after a while. it's not possible so I just changed my. number every now and again yeah yeah and. just lose people sorry do what you can. disappear yeah Reach Out stay in contact. with the people that you really want to. be yeah it's not even really want like. some of the people I really do want to. be with yeah but I can't yeah I just.

don't have the time it's like you you. get to a certain there's like a certain. number of interactions that are just. untenable yeah and it just gets and it's. and it's not that I'm more important. than anybody else I was just as. important when I was working at Burger. King you know. um a long long time ago it's it's just. literally hours in the day and you know. it's like I I have they they have the. cover for my book on Amazon for. pre-order before I write the first word. of it so you know it's coming out next.

in a while yeah exactly yeah I talked to. Jack about that I think it's like you. know like he he's ready to go and he's. like okay time to lock myself up yeah. because it's just you have a deadline. and in this debt and then also you want. it to be the best [ __ ] thing you. could do right because you've done so. many great books already that this has. got you got to nail it yeah so there's. so much pressure and there's so much and. then my dish Mark I don't care about me. what about me I love your work Mark I'm. your biggest fan it makes me think of.

misery yeah yeah another another Stephen. King amazing yeah oh gosh I mean uh what. was the woman's name that played Kathy. Bates Kathy Bates is amazing we went to. the same high school she's done amazing. yeah that was one of those castings. where oh my gosh yeah oh yeah she. [ __ ] name like her career was made. she got that role and she just just made. a meal out of of it and it was so good. yeah it was that was great yeah that was. a great adaptation and she was perfect.

and James Khan was perfect yeah too he. was like oh my God she's so good I gotta. watch it again. she's so good yeah there's some people. that just like and Charlize Theron's. like that and monster yeah oh my god. when she played Eileen werno she's a. different she's a different person she's. so [ __ ] hot she's hot as the sun and. then she gets fat and shaves her. eyebrows off and she looks like this. psycho and you're like yeah oh my God. that's not eating Prosthetics yeah you. did that to your body that's insane yeah. she looks like a killer and also for a.

woman who's a gorgeous woman who's like. this A-list actress to do that to her. body yeah and and you know probably hard. to bounce back from that too you know it. was hard I mean look at her look at how. [ __ ] dude yeah she [ __ ] nailed it. but I wonder if I wonder if there's. something like liberating about like. totally changing your identity for. something like that I bet if you're a. sex symbol like her because you know. she's so [ __ ] hot like go to a. picture of her just looking ah as [ __ ].

Jamie go go that one with her the Oscar. right there the the one there the blue. dress when she's wearing yeah that's. perfect right there make that one bigger. like come on son how are you gonna say. that that that lady's going to be an. ugly serial killer you know it's. impossible but she nailed it and then. she bounced right back like that's crazy. yeah like people like that that's a rare. person if you can get that person like a. Christian Bales willing to starve. himself for The Machinist yeah yeah you. can get someone like that to do your. role like God damn there's a lot of. examples of that and that's just Daniel.

a lot of work yeah you just become a. different human being yeah yeah but. Kathy Bates God damn was she perfect. yeah she's so good but that's the fears. like this [ __ ] crazy person is. completely obsessed with your books yeah. yeah I mean thankfully that you know in. the book. um he gets his leg chopped off in the. movie It's hit with a hammer yeah but. hit I mean which is almost more violent. right like the way that it happens yes. and she's so nonchalant about it or. whatever she's just kind of like setting.

it up and and he's so helpless it was. just incredible yeah yeah yeah. um that's uh I guess this comes with a. job right yeah yeah and it's you know. it's a very small part of it yeah it's a. very smart part of it but when you. finish a book is there like an. apprehension like what does it feel like. when you're done do you feel done or do. you feel like how many times do you have. to go over it after you're done with it. I feel like I ran out of time like I. never feel like this couldn't be better.

and I hate to say I'm a perfectionist. because it sounds like you think you've. done something perfect before and but. I'm a perfectionist in the sense that. it's never you know like it at least. this aspect of my life you know it's. like it's it's never right it's never. good enough and you just run out of time. so I do go over it you know I'll turn a. first draft into my editor it comes back. to me I'll turn it he reads it and gives. me his ideas and I'll do a second draft. and then he'll read it again and it'll. go to a copy editor and I'll get it and. then it'll go to pre-freader and I'll.

get it and still there'll be some. mistake in them that makes it into the. phone so at the end a hundred last book. uh burners 165 000 words so I always say. like yeah and 160 000 words there's. probably five words I wish I could get a. do-over on you know when you finish your. book do you read it from the beginning. to the end. in the editing process yes. um but I mean like once it's turned in. for the final you know like once I'm the. last one that looks at it before a. proofreader goes and like make or a copy.

editor goes and fixes the little things. that I and I kind of have a bad. reputation at my publishing house for. making a lot of changes at the end um I. crammed 14 pages into it into a Clancy. book once after Tom had passed away and. I was writing the Jack Ryan books um. like literally the last go-around I was. like. um you know I really feel it needs a. scene in a crane and they came back to. me they're like we've already measured. the spine and I was like did not know. that was a thing but they but to their. credit they they made changes and they. got it in there but I um I never read.

the books again I do listen to the. audiobooks or at least part of the. audiobooks because then I think I have a. good audio narrator and and that. gentleman Ray what is his name uh Ray. Porter is fantastic this is Jay Snyder. is the guy that does oh the Tom Clancy's. books no the the gray man is Jason. either Ray Porter does the Jack Carr oh. that's right he does that's right he. does Don Winslow and he does a lot of. really really cool and so Jay Porter uh. uh no no Jay Snyder Jay Snyder Jay.

Snyder is very good yeah Ray Porter Jay. Snyder yeah yeah they're both fantastic. they're both very good yeah yeah and. it's such a hard job to do that I can't. do girl voices yeah then you have to do. accents and your books have a lot of. actions sure yeah. um gosh Ray Porter and Jay Snyder's. probably my favorite but Ray Porter's. right up there he did the Don Winslow. cartel series. um there's one called though there's one. called The Border I think one it's the. cartel. um the power of the dog it's three books. they're fantastic and I've listened to.

the ray Porter thing and there's like. six female Mexican. you know women in the story and I could. tell them all apart and I'm like how do. you do that I wonder if they do it like. do they have can they really go from. character to character as they're doing. it or do they have to like set up for. each individual character and like. practice The Voice a little bit before. they read the dialogue like I wonder how. they do that I do too because there must. be some sort of cues to where they can. because you know sometimes in in writing. you don't identify who's speaking until.

after the sentence or whatever so. somehow I don't know how they reverse. engineer that to do an audio the worst. at it unfortunately because Stephen King. he's the worst has he done his own books. oh. no it's terrible don't ever get an audio. I don't want to say this because I love. Stephen King yeah but he's just not good. at right he's great at writing but when. he reads it it's like he's reading it no. it's not like he's acting it yeah. whereas like Ray Porter it's like he's. acting out or chase Snyder yeah I I mean.

if I'm Stephen King I've got enough to. do I know I don't understand why we. formed that out to somebody else but I. think he did the Gunslinger or he did. he's done some of them and I I start. listening to him like I'm just gonna. read this I can't do this oh wow yeah I. like non-fiction books a lot of times. the the narrator is the guy that wrote. it yeah and it's really good I love that. did you read um the the Rob O'Neill the. Navy SEAL guy no. um uh is it called the operator.

um it's a Navy SEAL book and he read it. and I was like this guy could be a. professional audiobook guy because he's. just sort of there's an intensity to him. and and all that just totally worked for. the for the story but that's great yeah. I love it when an author reads their own. book especially when it's someone who. has done a lot of podcasts and you know. yeah he knows how to communicate yes. he's already got a distinctive. recognizable voice like a Malcolm. Gladwell or something like that yeah. yeah I love when they read their own. stuff yeah same yeah it's such a tricky.

World though I mean to hire a person to. read your fiction audiobook like you got. very lucky yeah having an amazing guy do. it but it's got to be like a un like to. read someone bring your characters to. like like when you first heard the voice. of the gray man what did you think so. they did a tryout they did I got to. choose Jay Snyder but I only I got to. choose between two audio book narrators. and I I actually like them both it was.

really cool last year I did a audible. original Audio Drama so it's not a gray. man story this other book that I have. called armored and I wrote an audio play. so they have sound effects and music and. actual actors instead of narrators doing. oh wow and it was like 600 page 618. Pages for the five and a half hour I. think audio play and it was so. fascinating to hear these things that. you write you know like audio cue it's. like M249 going cyclic you know and this.

guy says this and this and that was that. came out before the film too uh came out. like six months before the movie came. out and so that was the first time I. like I heard actors like acting out. something that I'd written and it was it. was just mind-blowing that's a really. interesting way to do it to have audio. in it yeah like gunfire yeah car. screeching yeah it's like an old time. radio play if you think about it and I. think it worked pretty well I ended up. writing it as a hundred and fifty.

thousand word book so there's things in. the book that aren't in the in the audio. play but it's I think it's a fun way to. spend five hours you know listening. while you're doing something else well I. really enjoy fiction. um like I said it is specifically in the. sauna when I'm suffering because it's. just it's a nice escape to just. concentrate on the characters and just. deal with the suffering yeah but it's um. it's a such a unique way to uh express. yourself to create these.

scenarios and scenes and things that. just ha they're not real yeah you're. making a world you're making like a. whole little environment but with you. this environment is a very specific. genre so do you have to be careful of. not like overusing tropes not reusing. ideas not like and keeping it fresh like. how do you stimulate your creativity in. terms of like that one particular genre.

yeah you're exactly right the first few. books you're pulling off the low-hanging. fruit you know your whole life to think. of these cool ideas and these. interesting scenarios and then you you. get a little bit more and a little bit. more and then you get to a point where. it's like okay I've I've taken all the. parts off of the cars that I have in the. back of my house you know and so you. just have to go out and get more. information go to go to other places I. think I've been to like 38 countries. doing research and um.

talk to a lot of people read a lot and. try and bring stuff in the macro level. I'm great I've got ideas for 20 more. books probably the micro level it's like. okay this guy has got to get on a. private jet and fly to Malta it's like. okay I've done that uh how does he do it. differently or this guy's following. another guy down the street or you know. this woman is you know gonna kill her. husband or whatever it's like those. things that you've done and I used to. joke I'm like you know there's going to.

be a point where I'm going to be writing. a Like a Knife Fight in a hot tub and go. like ah this is my third knife fight in. a hot tub you know it's like how many. times can you get away with that do you. feel like there's gonna come a time. where you can't. like it strains credulity to keep the. gray man operational I mean look at. James Bond that's 60 years you know and. everybody's going like yeah you know how. can you get excited in a book where you. know the guy's going to win or survive. and I'm like no superhero novels no.

nobody goes to a James Bond film. thinking he's going to die eight minutes. in and then that first you know sure and. they go for other reasons and in my. books there is other skin in the game. like there's some big geopolitical thing. that's really happening in the world a. burner involves Russia and Ukraine um. none of it takes place in Ukraine it's. not about the war but it's about Russian. foreign intelligence and. um so I had to do a year ago when I was. writing the book I had to really sort of. prognosticate where we would be a year. from now to get all that so it took a. lot of work and a lot of research and it.

will there will be a time where. you know. America doesn't have that many peer. enemies you know obviously there's China. and there's or near peer enemies China. and Russia and North Korea's nukes. otherwise they wouldn't be in on. anybody's radar. um so when I was doing the Clancy books. I was going like all right who's left. you know we can't bring in people from. outer space you know it's like what are. we going to do. um but there's just there's different. ways to skin a cat but I mean I think.

yeah ultimately it's it's gonna just get. harder and harder to do it's harder to. write my 24th book than it was to write. my fifth book but really way way way. harder that's crazy because you've. you've covered so much of the ground. exactly one thing's to me that's been. interesting about your books is going. from the original gray man to uh cr6. where I'm at now where you you have to. deal with the new technology and you. have to deal with new surveillance.

technology you have to deal with the. internet you have to deal with the fact. that someone's going to be a known. Factor yeah when you've got a guy like. the gray man that's been involved in so. many operations and so many different. missions like at a certain point in time. people are aware of him they're going to. be able to recognize him yeah yeah if. you if you look at it literally but I'll. go back to James Bond he'd walk into a. place and say my name is James Bond or. Bond James Bond I'm saying he actually. uses his real name that's kind of funny. right um you know it's like I'm an MI6. guy uh using my real name out there in.

the field and um. yeah you know you just try and sell it. as best you can I like the gray man. really hasn't aged in the past 10 years. or so he aged maybe in the first couple. of books and but I didn't know it was. going to be a series I had no idea right. and uh so there's a Daniel Silva I don't. know if you've read him he's a fantastic. thriller author. um he actually is actually ages his. character Gabriel Elan who's a Israeli. former massage guy and his books are. fantastic I mean I I look up to him very.

much but that's not what I'm doing I. mean my guy's gonna need to be able to. climb that fence and you know jump off. that scaffold and you know land on a. tuck tuck or something yeah you know. it's like that's not going to go away as. long as I'm running the series so I if I. if I if each story on its own stands on. its own and is fun and is exciting and. has something some kernel out of what's. really going on in the world hopefully. to make it you know current then I'm. probably okay as long as I can keep.

doing that I I don't ever want to phone. it in like my career my ambition isn't. anything other than writing a good book. and if I'm not writing a good book you. know I will do something else do you. feel like there's going to come a time. when you have to come up with a new gray. man. I I have another series that's Josh. Duffy series which is only one book. right now but that I'm working on the. other one today so. I like bouncing around but you know as. far as exchanging The Gray Man out in a. story like someone younger comes and.

takes a roll probably not because I'm. really not aging him you know it's like. right I I. mentally I'm going like all right so. he'd be he'd probably be by this story. he'd probably be about 46 now or. something like that so he could still do. a lot of the stuff and a lot of the. stuff he couldn't do um yeah I remember. you know when I wrote the first gray man. like the the older guy who you know was. like his boss Hanley I think was like 44. or 45 or something I was like yeah he's. this old fart you know and now I'm 55.

and you're going like ah what an [ __ ]. um but yeah it's uh I think it I think. that the books are always going to sort. of stand on their own and stand alone. like a Mac ball and like like a James. Bond or something like that and um I. want there to be story arcs and I want. there to be the psychology of. interpersonal relationships and all. these things in the story but I'm not. looking to you make the reality you know. and have anything to do with time right. that's tricky yeah it is tricky when.

you're dealing with someone as physical. too right yeah yeah it's the big issue. yeah and I've had I've had complaints. when people go like yeah but he you said. 12 years ago he was you know in Iraq or. something and. and I'm like yeah yeah I did uh I wish I. didn't. like to buy the new book I'd love to. sell it to you but if not. Shuffle on but you're gonna have to. forget about that part yeah exactly. that's tricky that's why I was saying. like it's gonna come a time where you. have to phase them out yeah because like.

if you doing these things in. chronological order and we get to 10. years from now and you're dealing with a. 58 year old gray man unless you're still. saying he's 37 and people are able to. they'll either buy it or they won't you. know I mean I guess James Bond would be. about a hundred and thirty because the. first books came out in the late 50s. right so that's interesting I didn't. think about it that way right but I. think we're dealing with a totally. different James Bond every time just. like we're dealing with a totally. different Spider-Man a few yeah I mean.

the that's true that's true they they. reboot yeah and um and that was the. thing that didn't used to happen but now. it happens and it works like if you've. rebooted Spider-Man like five times yeah. how many times I know how many. Spider-Mans have been at least four. right yeah yeah I'm making a new one are. the new Spiderman Spiderman Noir it's. like a TV show has nothing to do with. the 1930s oh wow my favorite was the. animated one when they did the spider. verse they just completely changed the. world and made it a Multiverse thing and.

had a young kid do it yeah right yeah. it's clever I love that one because also. with animation you can get away with so. much more like physically it makes sense. like you can enjoy it the suspension of. disbelief so much easier yeah and you're. not trying to look through the CGI and. see if it's if it's legit or not yeah. you know exactly I saw an early version. of the gray man. um film and they hadn't finished all the. CGI it was really I mean it was. fascinating I didn't know what I was. looking at it basically it turns to like. a cartoon for like a couple of seconds.

almost you know the characters and um it. was like that aha video take on me like. it sort of looks like that to a degree. just for like a a second you're like. what just happened yeah the process of. watching your work become a film has got. to be very weird yeah I I wasn't closely. involved with it I went out and met the. Russo brothers when they were going to. write the script and spend a few days. with them talking about the story and. where the future story because they. wanted it to be a French franchise from. the beginning but I wasn't involved in. the day-to-day but I was sent in scripts.

Joe sent me the script that he wrote. um and then I saw the the shooting. script like right when they were. shooting so that was my involvement with. it and then I would be on Twitter and. I'd see Ryan Gosling dressed up as a. gray man on Twitter you know I didn't. see it any way any anybody else would. have seen it you know are they doing a. series are they going to continue. they're doing a second one yeah three. yeah and they're right and they're. writing a spin-off series which I know. nothing about but the guy who wrote uh. Deadpool uh Rhett Rhys I think they're.

writing a spin-off based on who. someone in the series and I really don't. know I'm not being cagey it's really. yeah yeah I just know that that's. happening that's even weirder so now. someone's like taking your world and. it's almost like the Spider-Man thing. yeah I mean it depends on what they do. if they take a character that like uh. Zoya who's this Russian former Russian. um foreign intelligence I love that. character thank you thanks um you know. if they did something with her that. would be cool if they did something with. Zach Hightower who's kind of like his on. and off against sidekick you know that.

would be cool but I I don't know what it. is but they are doing a sequel with Ryan. Gosling. um in the role have they started that. yeah they're writing the script. um or Steve mcfeely is writing the. script one of the screenwriters on Gray. Man and is it based on any of your books. it's going to be based on one of the. books which books no I don't know that I. I didn't ask if you're allowed and. that's permission I get it my whole. point in coming here today was to walk. out of here and not go oh my God what I. can't believe I just said that.

was pretty far that was close well you. know oh you did a good job you navigated. it it's um is it a weird thing to watch. someone change your script and to change. the plot and change how the characters. interact and it is really weird I think. I went into it with the right mindset. that you know this was a represent a. film representation and I know that the. directors are like really creative. people and the screenwriters and. cinematographers and actors and they. don't look at it as their job that. they're Engineers that are going to take.

a piece of paper and turn it into. Celluloid with everyone doing exactly. the same thing so I never expected that. there are places in there where I think. I like I really like what they did and. there's places in there where it's like. I think my line landed a little bit. better you know like and and that. actually made me happy it I wasn't mad. that like they didn't do it my way it's. more like okay I think I have something. to offer still instead of you know all. these big shots with all this money come. and make something so like you know. vastly superior to the little paperback.

that I wrote you know it's like I think. there's places where my stuff holds up. and there's stuff in there that I think. is fantastic too but it is really. strange the toughest thing is the. complaints from fans that aren't happy. because of the changes so yeah people. just pigeonhole me all the time at a. conference or something and they'll be. like in the movie they did this and in. the book they did this and I was like. yeah I wrote the book and I saw the. movie so this whole interaction is like. I don't know what to tell you you know. it's like I can't yeah speak for them.

and people will email me and they're. like you've screwed up you gave it away. you you know it was all for the money or. whatever and you're like I didn't have. any creative control I'm not Stephen. King or John Grisham or one of these. guys you know I had this little. paperback that I got a little bit of. money to advance to put out and they. offered you know to option into. Hollywood and my answer was yes it. wasn't like let me look at page 94 of. the contract right where I'm going to. come back and say I want creative. control and I want to play The Gray Man. in the movie or whatever it's like. that's how you you don't get a movie.

made well Stephen King famously didn't. like the shining yeah which is wild. right because it's Stanley Kubrick and. it's Jack Nicholson it's an amazing. movie but the movie was very different. than his book in his book The the. character uh Jack it takes a long time. before he goes crazy and he starts out. sane he starts out just a troubled. former alcoholic who's trying to get his. life together and do right by his family. and he gets this opportunity to look. over this hotel and he's going to write.

this book and then along the way he goes. nuts yeah that's the difference between. a book and a movie like it like I like I. like that. added stuff um I think Tom Clancy didn't. like Harrison Ford. um in the in the Jack Ryan films and I. think it was just an age thing because. in his head he was pretty literal about. you know he's he's at this stage when I. wrote this book He's a young CIA analyst. who or whatever and I think Harrison. Ford was older and I'm not 100 sure. about that it's but but I I do know that.

you know our bread places he Tom never. told me this but that um that he wasn't. a big fan of those and I think those are. the best ones I don't know. any of his what what ones where's. Patriot Games clear and present danger. and those were all Harrison Ford yeah. yeah no kidding yeah yeah and I think he. did a good they did they did a great job. Alec Baldwin was great in Red October. yeah and too bad he didn't stick with it. I forgot about Red October yeah yeah I. forgot about Patriot Games too yeah yeah.

well it's like it's so interesting when. you get a known commodity like a famous. celebrity that comes in and takes over a. role that you've created yeah. yeah I I you know I was I was happy with. Ryan Gosling like he I just as I. described The Gray Man the the look is. pretty similar and he didn't he didn't. over bake it I feel like the scenes with. the the girl and the that he's. protecting could have turned schmalty.

and cheesy yeah and they didn't and I. like that in my book I like it a little. bit better because the the girl actually. has some agency in her own rescue she. does some things to help herself whereas. this one she's just sort of like. protected uh you know by By Gentry I. mean she she kind of saves the day to. some degree too. um you know you can pick little thing. the very first scene in the movie uh. Billy Bob Thornton is a CIA guy sitting. in a prison with a dude saying here's. the name of our secret CIA program and.

here's what it does would you like to. join well that's how that works you know. and there's a yeah the funniest part was. that there's a scene a big action scene. in Prague takes place in Prague and gray. man is tough to a to a bench and he's. shooting bad guys and he can't get away. and there's cops and Dead Cops around. him and then the bad guys Chris Evans. sending the bad guys in from all. directions and at one point he reaches. over to this cop and pulls a frag. grenade off the guy's utility belt and. I'm like the cops and Prague carry Frags.

some hardcore cops and he throws it. blows something up and I'm like but it. works in the movie you know it's like. nobody's spending that much time looking. at it unless you're the idiot that wrote. it well that is the problem because. you're the guy I wrote exactly exactly. that's why it's got to be weird I would. imagine yeah when do you have any. um Ambitions to completely change genres. to do something that's outside of the. realm of success that you found yourself. in yeah I've been asked that a lot and I.

do have a bunch of ideas for books. they're mostly in the genre there's some. stuff that are a little bit pushing away. there's a kind of a romantic suspense. story but it involves CIA that that I'm. working on working on it slowly admits. other things and just kind of like. plotting out and Someday I'm like. someday I'm going to write this book you. know and um but it's still it's still a. thriller it's still sort of brushes. against Espionage but it's it's more.

more it's got like a romance angle that. my stuff doesn't really have is that. what you've always gravitated towards. like what you consume the kind of books. you read no I mean the kind of books I. read are the kind of books I write and I. wrote a military Thriller co-authored a. military Thriller in 2019 called red. metal with an then active duty Marine. lieutenant colonel. um a good friend of mine rip Rawlings. and uh because I always even though I. wasn't in the military and Tom Clancy. wasn't in the military it's like I. always thought that I had one of those.

in me like a a big military Thriller. like an old Tom Clancy one and so I. wanted to do it forever and I met rip at. the Pentagon when I was researching a. Clancy book and he wanted to be a writer. he was a writer but he hadn't been. published and he and I became friends. and for like four years we would just. bounce ideas off each other and one day. I just said hey rip I think I could go. to my editor or my agent and I can get. us a book deal if you want to do this. together so we did and we went he and I. went to Poland into Germany into he went.

to France and we went to Air Force Base. and we did research and research and. this book came out in 2019 it was a. Russia war with NATO and it did really. well it hit the times list and we're. doing a sequel but the idea was I wanted. to do something that was a little bit. out of the Spy novel thing this is big. troop movements and you know aircraft. and all these stuff and I wanted to. write something big like that and I did. it and I was really happy with the. experience it was a ton of work but it. was also really fulfilling so I'm I made.

get a little bit afield in in what I. write you know it's not always going to. be like you know the Assassin walking. down the street you know chasing a guy. but I probably won't go that wide I'm. not going to be writing you know a. Bollywood script or anything like that. anytime soon do you have um time in. between books where you just read or. just research and just try to like to. fuel your creativity yeah I I didn't but. now I realize how important it is and so.

last year I had two books come out and. the film came out so I had all these. things that didn't involve writing a. book and I wrote burner which I went to. several countries to research and took. probably eight months to write the book. and I was supposed to write something. else last year and both my agent and my. editor who are both great guys they both. said why don't you just take the rest of. the year off because you've really been. burning the candle at both ends and um. and start fresh next year and so it was. hard you know you get up one day and not.

feel like you have to be on your laptop. in four minutes you know but but I use. that time to kind of come up with this. year's book to where I have a pretty. more fleshed out outline than I usually. do it's significantly more but yeah it. was just it was just days of like going. to the park or working out and I have a. little home gym and and. listening to podcasts about stuff that. would be you know in in the next book or. reading stuff and um slowly taking notes. and I I don't really have the luxury of.

doing that every time and when I finish. the new gray man book I've got to get. right into the second armored book which. is the one that will come out next year. and I better have a plot to figure it. out on the plane you know you know as. I'm on book tour or something is that. good to have that kind of pressure. if I didn't have it I'd probably still. be writing my second book honestly so I. it's I hate it but I need it and it's. just I've never been able to like. straighten out my work-life balance the.

way I would like to it's I I'm insecure. as a writer so I'm just I hate what I'm. doing 95 of the way through it and then. tweet tweet tweak and my wife could tell. you like the last couple years. um you know it's like I hate the book in. July and then beginning of August I'm. like well I mean there's something in. there there's a heart to this thing I. just it's got a lot of mistakes and then. by the end of August you know it's kind. of like all right I think this one's. actually okay you know and then by the. time it comes out it's like all right.

this is done it's as good as I can make. it I'm proud of it you know let's get it. out I think that feeling of never having. a good balance is like part of the. creative process yeah I've never met. anybody who does great work who's like. really happy with the whole process yeah. but it's fun to fantasize about just. like getting up in the morning with a. big smile on your face and going like. man I'm kicking ass right it's always. like I'm just flailing yeah I have. really bad imposter syndrome and always. have and I guess I always will and and. um so you know it's this whole like I.

hope they don't find me out I'm glad you. said that because I think everybody. who's good has imposter syndrome yeah. I've talked to Great Comics I've talked. to Great musicians I've talked to great. writers and almost all of them have this. thing like oh they're gonna find me out. yeah exactly you're you know like why. why am I here you know right you know. it's like and I've even. I used to have really really bad social. anxiety and um. when I was trying to get published like. I literally had appointments to talk to. agents and I never left my hotel room.

because I just chickened out you know. and and that happened and then so once I. got published it was still sort of like. this I don't belong here thing and um. and now you know like when I first was. asked to write with Clancy I was like oh. my God why are they asking me this you. know it's. um it's like oh crap you know it's like. it's like how do I get out of this and. um especially Clancy right yeah exactly. such a huge fan yeah and I was like. can't I go to the next level above me. and not way up there that's scary up. there but then I was after we did three. but he passed away right after we I mean.

a couple days after we finished the. third book together and then his family. asked me to continue the Jack Ryan. series and if they'd asked anybody else. I'd have been really upset like by then. I I felt like I was the right guy for. the job and it was the first time in my. career I felt like I was you know I was. like why are they why are they letting. me write for a living I get to go to. other countries and talk to people and. then write fun stuff about [ __ ] blowing. up you know it's like how cool is this. and it took me a few years to where it's. like okay there's there's something I.

bring to the table here oh you most. certainly do yeah that's great I'm. really proud of you for you if I was. your friend I'd be let's be friends. let's be friends but it's I think that's. an amazing story to go from a guy who's. a giant Tom Clancy fan to be writing. those novels yeah that's amazing and to. know the the language and to know the. characters and to keep it true to the. original work yeah so I'd only had a. couple of paperback books out when they. asked me if I was interested in being. his co-author but we had the same editor.

and did he know your work was he a fan. of your work I don't know I mean I I. think ultimately yes I mean like we we. met but when they first reached out to. me it wasn't a job offer it was more. like would you be interested you want. you want us to put your hat in the ring. for this and there was this kind of back. and forth where no decisions were being. made and as scared as I was at first I. also knew enough about the publishing. world to know that that book was going. to be due to whenever I started writing. it that the due date wasn't going to. change so right it's like beginning of.

February 2011 they asked me if I was. interested and end of February still. didn't have it the job and we're into. March and I still didn't have the job. and I was like I bet this book is due on. a certain date no matter what so finally. I said listen I am a huge Clancy fan I. know these characters I know these. people let me write 50 pages as if I was. writing a Tom Clancy novel and do that. as a tryout and so I don't think anybody. else did that and so I just wrote 50. pages like in the middle of a book that. never existed you know it was just like.

I didn't worry about plot I was just. like there's a scene and. I I gave them that and then they had me. go up to Baltimore and meet Tom and then. I had the job so wow yeah it was it was. amazing I was terrified to meet why did. they want someone to collaborate with. Tom. uh do I even know the answer I I really. don't know the answer to that it happens. with authors as they get older they they. I mean I'm already don't have the focus. and we were talking earlier you know. it's like I used to be able to write.

six eight ten twelve hours do you take. any nootropics I don't know what that is. so really interesting yeah I'll get you. do you have any yeah oh I was kidding I. do I was kidding I have some right here. can we take it on camera and see what. happens yeah we'll see if I get more. interesting it'll take a few hours for. this to kick in really this is uh Alpha. Brain Black Label this is my favorite. but I take a bunch of different. nootropics I take what they are is. essentially building blocks for human. neurotransmitters it's just nutrients. okay here take the six is it legal in.

all 50 states yes 100 you buy it on. Amazon here take six of these thanks man. there you go I appreciate it I'll take. them too so you know I'm not poisoning. you you take all six yeah I take all six. seriously yes I'm gonna mess with you. all right here we go okay we'll go. but I take a bunch of different ones. they started taking a new one they sent. me called Magic mind and it's nootropics. uh along with um. um lion's mane and a bunch of functional. mushrooms wow and I like that one too.

there's another one the I got found out. about nootropics because of uh Bill. Romanowski he uh was a former football. player great football player and uh. developed some obviously some uh neural. issues or post concussions and impacts. and stuff like that so he created. something called neuro one and I really. like that I started taking neuro one. because uh there was a a show called uh. Alison no name. um was it Allison oil was on.

San Francisco. it was the morning radio show and there. was a the dude they would call him no. name. um and his um. his trainer was Bill Romanowski and Bill. Romanowski got him on this stuff this is. like quite a few years ago and I go what. is it and he's like it's a nutrients. that help you think better I was like. well how do you what do you do and he. like gave me some and uh I started. taking him like this is interesting like. it helps you uh form sentences better it. helps your verbal memory and uh that's.

one of the things we've done with Alpha. Brain because this is a company that I. owned we we sent. um a bunch of it and we funded two. double-blind placebo-controlled studies. at the Boston Center for memory and they. showed uh increase in verbal memory uh. increase in Reaction Time increase in. Peak Alpha Flow State so it's it it. enhances your ability to think and. that's the thing it's not going to make. you smarter but what it does is it.

provides your brain with the nutrients. it needs to functions at its best there. is nothing I need more I I yeah like I. I've last year I was worrying that I was. having some kind of cognitive decline. because I was forgetting things and it's. like wait did I just did I just do that. or was I about to do that and I think it. was because I was just really overloaded. just busy and family and stuff and you. know it's like going from no two dogs. and no family to three step kids and. four dogs and um you know the movies out. and two book came out and right I had to.

write a book and I just really felt like. like something was going on in my head. and yeah and once I turned that book in. and took a couple months off or whatever. and things had you know recharged. recharge to some degree but yeah as you. get older you need that well there's. also a thing with the Vitality of your. body like the the more Vitality you have. the more robust your body is the more. you can function at a high energy level. for longer periods of time which is I. think cardio is very important for. anybody who's creative you know I mean.

there's a lot of like brilliant creative. people that never work out ever and 100. you can do it I know some brilliant. Comedians and writers and all they do is. they force themselves to sit down they. create amazing work but I think if you. looked at it comprehensively the overall. robustness of your physical body the. your body's ability to generate energy. function at you know a a really good. pace and to just be overall healthy I. think is very important for creativity.

and I think cardiovascular fitness in. particular seems to really enhance. creativity I know a lot of people that. get very creative when they run very. creative when they they'll do something. that is a high tax rate on the body like. yoga or you know CrossFit something. that's like just it keeps your body. functioning at a very high level yeah I. think that can enhance it too oh it's. I've had the best so I work out. regularly and it started in 2019 and. just gotten divorced and I lost a ton of.

weight and I wasn't sleeping like I was. I still had trouble sleeping but like I. was kind of freaked out so I went to. psychiatrist like what's wrong with me. and and talked to him for a while and he. said you are as healthy as anybody's. ever walked through my door you just. have these chemicals firing in your head. right now because of your divorce and. how you're feeling and he's like. I could prescribe you some crap but you. should probably just work out that's a. great psychiatrist oh he's fantastic. thank God you found that yeah and so. that was July 1st of 2019 and so I'm. coming up on five years of.

keeping my way like I lost 40 pounds. um and I I exercise and when you first. start doing it it makes you really tired. but when you keep doing it it's like it. keeps you from being tired yeah and so. I'll work out every afternoon like three. or four in the afternoon and I sleep. better and the next day is better and. until I do it again and if I don't work. out for a couple of days I feel really. lethargic yes I'm with you 100 and not. for me it's I have this thought that I.

think that human beings evolved with. with anxiety and fear because of actual. real threats sure because of threats of. animals of predators and of neighboring. tribes invading and War and chaos and. violence defense mechanisms yes and then. we also carry that same anxiety today. but there's no threats right so your. body is like it's the same chemicals as. as was explained to me that that fire. out through your brain if you're you. know having some crazy relationships.

stuff going on as if a tiger is chasing. you or whatever it's like your brain. doesn't have different chemicals for. different things and I think that. there's a real physical requirement of. taxing your body that comes with that. sort of anxiety that if you don't meet. that physical requirement your body's. just like Yeah because it just looks. like we gotta run man yeah there's. something going on there's something. that attacking us we got to get the [ __ ]. out of here and unless you meet those. physical requirements like wear your.

body out so that it can get back to a. normal Baseline yeah it doesn't burn off. all that [ __ ] right I mean I'm obviously. not talking about like a scientist but. yeah there's something to that that for. me in times of like Peak anxiety and. Peak stress nothing makes me feel better. than a hard workout yeah hard workout. hard sauna session cold plunge I'm back. yeah I I agree with that I I got hurt. playing soccer in my 30s and had a back. surgery and the surgeon botched it so I. have permanent nerve damage in my left.

leg oh no and I have had since had been. had four surgeries to try and correct. stuff and two of those surgeries didn't. go well and so I've spent an entire year. and a half of my life on crutches or on. a knee scooter and not able to I mean. barely able to work out like my gym in. my old house was you know just a. playroom and it was up a wooden. staircase and it's like I'm crawling I'm. like oh wow and I was literally just. doing like Turkish get-ups and I'd do. like four on each side and be crippled.

the next day but that was all the. exercise I could get and I was getting. depressed and you know gained weight and. just feeling really just well just tired. and lethargic all the time and now that. I'm able to do yes I wear a little brace. on my ankle and um I'm able to do most. anything. um that I want to do and the more active. I stay just the better I feel in a. hundred different ways did you get. disfused so I have two levels in lumbar. disc I have artificial discs so it was.

something that they were it's it's. approved in other countries but it's not. FDA approved in the U.S for some reason. or maybe it is now this is there's a I. know quite a few people that have. artificial they do in their net there's. a lot in cervical but lumbar was at. least then what year was this 2004 when. I had surgery earlier yeah yeah so yours. is not an articulating it is articulated. it is yeah there's a titanium there's. two levels yes interesting yeah it's. called a Maverick it was actually the. company I worked for made spinal.

implants and it was their device yeah. and um and it's done great for me I. still have like kind of chronic back. pain but it's so much less when you have. stenosis. um yes so when they put this in what. what were you experiencing before they. put that in was it a bulging disc was it. herniated was it pushing against nerves. so I had so the first surgeon went in to. clean up a one level bulging disc and. um left sequestered disk material so the.

the jelly inside the jelly donut that is. the disc in the foramen which is the The. Joint area where where the nerve root. goes and it crushed off my nerve root. um my L4 nerve root which means I can't. dorsiflex my left foot at all still. still and but if it was my L5. um nerve root this is the doctor another. doctor told me he's like look look on. the bright side if it was the L5 nerve. root you'd never be able to evacuate. your bowels or you know have sex or.

anything like that and I'm like okay. suddenly you know the glass is half full. and so what have they done to correct. that well so I had a second surgery to. kind of get that disc material out and. then I had a third surgery because I. just had so much discogenic pain so just. midline back pain I was walking with a. cane when I was 34. and I'd have been a. soccer amateur but like very intense. soccer player and the third surgery they. went in through my front and they moved. the whole stomach the whole peritoneum.

the bag that holds the stomach and they. put like these like shoe horn in there. and then they took out the discs and. then they put in these joints that look. like kind of like an Oreo cookie but. they have two levels of that and my back. pain 65 of my back pain went away. immediately and with therapy another 20. I still have but then in 2017 I went to. have a surgery to fix my ankle and give. me the dorsiflexion back they can move a. tendon from the inside of your foot.

behind your shin and attach it to the. top of your foot and after a while your. body learns how to use that tendon right. and so that surgery failed they did it. again it failed again and the second. time I got a um it got infected and uh. just a bad doctor honestly and um I. almost lost the foot I had to go be. hospitalized and was it MRSA what does. that mean uh staff effect uh yeah it was. some kind of a staff. osteomyelitis it was a bone infection oh. Jesus yeah so I had to do that's scary. yeah I was on crutches and then you know.

going through the rain to the infusion. Clinic every day and going like but you. know like I had the right mental. attitude I was like hey if I get if I. get past this I can get past anything. you know it's like don't let yourself. get depressed about this and all the. while you're writing too yeah yeah I did. two books that year yeah yeah a gray man. in a Clancy and um it was about a year. and a half process but it's uh I won't. be getting another surgery so but still. the the foot is not functioning properly. yeah I just can't do dorsiflex if I wear.

the right brace I can cram a soccer. cleat on and uh you know play soccer. with my kids and that sort of stuff and. I can go to the park for a few hours a. day or whatever you know a few miles and. no big deal but if I'm standing just. standing there like at a cocktail party. or something like that it's excruciating. or taking that have hydrocodones the. only thing do but wow it's excruciating. and then I've done all the anybody that. says you should do physical therapy it's. like I know all the exercises because. I've been to like 10 12 bouts of.

physical therapy and I do them and it. probably makes it somewhat better but. um yeah have you done any stem cells no. they've never done that uh you should. really look at it yeah and I haven't I. haven't even had an MRI on this back in. like 15 years I mean it's because it. feels the same and um but yeah I. probably should find I'll connect you. with some people stem cells well there's. some places that you can go outside of. the United States where they can do some. pretty phenomenal stuff with stem cells. because they don't have the same. regulations that we have here because of. the FDA yeah but um I know a bunch of.

people that have had neurological issues. and some serious injuries that they've. helped recover from yeah yeah oh that's. cool yeah yeah I'll connect you yeah. when we get out of here it's a great. parlor trick though with my kids I've. actually gotten a pair of pliers and. pinched my toe which is not recommended. you know until you don't feel anything. in your phone at all well not in that. part of my foot wow. that's got to be crazy well that wasn't. that isn't Hulk Hogan say that he can't. feel his legs now I think Hulk Hogan. said that because of uh this most recent. back surgeries Hulk Hogan's had a series.

of back surgeries and I guess he can't. feel his legs yeah that's that's in the. nerve roots that go down your leg Yeah. but back surgeries are crazy one and I. wish I had known you before you had. gotten it because there's stuff that you. could do with bulging discs now that uh. you you can really repair them with stem. cells and with um there's um some. decompression uh exercises that they can. decompress the spine and yeah there's a. machine called reverse hyper that's. particularly good at the lumbar area.

it was uh created uh by this guy uh. Louis Simmons who's a famous power. lifter who uh [ __ ] his back yeah yeah. and uh they were gone they wanted to. fuse his back and he was like well why. can't I figure out a way to decompress. it there's got to be a way to decompress. it yeah so he invented this machine. called the reverse hyper and what the. reverse hyper is we have one out here in. the gym I'll show it to you after the. after we're done but you lay your. stomach down on this flat bench and you. hook your your ankles up to this thing.

that's sort of like a leg curl and you. lift up and then uh you lift your legs. up which strengthens the back. strengthens the back and then as you let. it down it swings and it's actively. decompressing your back it's like. traction this is it right here so that's. oh wow so that's the machine I use that. I actually use that today that's the. Rogue version of it which I think is uh. the best version of that machine yeah. that would definitely decompress things. down there yeah so as it drops down down.

you're pulling the back so you're. strengthening it on the up on the. concentric and then and The Eccentric. you're lengthening yeah and it allows. the the spine to like slowly get. stretched and pulled apart and it's been. amazing for me yeah it strengthens that. area and it's alleviated any issues that. I had I used to get like the occasional. sciatic right pain I don't get any of. that anymore oh that's fantastic and my. my back is all [ __ ] up my from the top.

of my neck all the way down to my lower. back I've had issues from Jiu Jitsu Jiu. Jitsu is the worst and Jiu Jitsu in. wrestling it's like people are. constantly like shoving your neck into. the ground and you're like getting. stacked where like you know you're. you're literally all your weight is on. your upper back and your neck and. someone's got a hold of your legs and. you're trying to pass and you're you're. resisting and moving and it's so much. strain on the spinal column yeah and. unless you strengthen all the tissue. around that right to keep it stable Yeah.

it's you're going to get injuries. absolutely so I do something for my neck. I have this thing called an iron neck. where I put a Halo on and I have a. bungee cord that's like 50 pounds of. pressure to pull it back I've seen that. yeah. so that's how I keep everything strong. and functional and there's ways around. the surgery yeah yeah for some people. for some injuries I mean it doesn't it's. not for all of them but for bulging. discs I had a bulging disc in my neck to. the point was causing ulnar nerve pain. where I'd have this pain in my elbow and.

my my fingertips were getting numb yeah. and it was pretty [ __ ] and I fixed all. that with no surgery that's awesome yeah. back in 2002 I basically went to the ER. because I blew a disc playing soccer and. the surgeon was a this British guy who. knew all about soccer and he's like oh. you know you might have to sit out the. rest of this season but by the Fall. you'll be able to play again if we do. this surgery and I'm like okay and I. woke up and couldn't feel my leg this is. the problem with when you're dealing. with nerves and you're dealing with the. spine is such a delicate place it really. is my friend boss root who's the UFC.

heavyweight champion yeah I've got some. of his tapes and stuff oh he's great. yeah boss had his neck fused and one of. his arms shriveled he had atrophy. because of nerve damage and so he's got. what he calls baby arm so his right arm. is like half the size of his left arm. his left arms is jacked [ __ ] it's not. fixable it's a slow recovery process. like every year he'll gain like a little. bit more movement a little bit more. strength yeah but here he was.

former heavyweight champion of the world. he couldn't hole up a gallon of milk oh. God yeah which is crazy yeah I don't. know how long it's been since I've seen. him but he looked in good shape I saw. him the other day it looks better yeah. he's getting better constantly but that. one particular area because of the. fusion and he [ __ ] his neck up believe. it or not well he had [ __ ] his neck up. many times in his career he actually. fought for the heavyweight title when he. or was it heavyweight no when he fought. teoshi kosaka which is like I think the. first fight that he had in the UFC he.

couldn't do any wrestling because his. neck was so [ __ ] up so he just kind of. had to like Spar and condition himself. and get in shape without doing any. wrestling and he still won the fight but. then he was doing Sons of Anarchy he was. doing a stunt scene and uh he fell on. his neck and this stunt and just [ __ ]. his neck up and then wound up getting it. fused but now they're doing these. articulating discs in the neck that are. very successful in fact algae means. Sterling who's the UFC bantamweight. champion he actually had that done so he.

had a disc replacement in his neck where. he he fought pyor yawn fought for the. title got illegally need in the head and. won the title on a disqualification. which a lot of people like Boo yeah you. can't win a title like that then had to. get this operation so it was a long time. before they had the rematch and they. came and dominated in the rematch with a. fake discipline yeah wow he went back to. it yep and not only went back to went. back to it better than ever wow so they.

can do it now if you get the right. doctor and it works out well so with. algemite it's worked out amazing but he. tried a bunch of different things to try. to heal it without that and they weren't. successful and so he had but again. you're dealing with a guy who's a high. level wrestler a Brazilian black belt a. world champion MMA fighter I mean the. kind of pressure and strain that's on. his body it's just extraordinary yeah. and it works for him he's got a fake. disc in his neck works that's awesome. that's yeah mine in my low back.

definitely better than it was before I. mean it's like my back's never not gonna. not hurt I don't guess but yeah um but. it's it's a lot better than it was and. you just you look at the uh I remember. feeling sorry for myself at one point. and and. going at some place to get fitted for a. brace and there was a little child in. there that had no legs and I was like. okay you need to get your brain right. you know punch yourself in the face. right now because you you've got it. you're fine yeah this poor kid yeah it's. just all perspective yeah that that's so.

important it's it's so hard when you get. injured because you just it's amazing. how vulnerable the human body is yeah it. really is extraordinary and then when. you do difficult stuff and then you put. all these different stresses on. everything seems okay until one day yeah. and that's not yeah and then you're. [ __ ] yeah I I do squats now and just. on a Smith machine but like but like. there was a you know I was walking with. a cane in my 30s I was like it's kind of. like the Fountain of Youth is to be like.

really [ __ ] up when you're younger and. then and then feel better you know it's. like hey I've never felt better right. right and there's also there's this. perspective that comes from having been. debilitated haven't been really injured. and then recovering from that we really. appreciate your ability totally. appreciate it yeah yeah and I told. myself with my low back you know it's. like if I can just get functional I'm. gonna appreciate every day and it's been. 20 you know 18 19 years since the third. the surgery that helped my back where. they went in through the front and I'm.

so lucky to have had it yeah it's like a. thing the same thing that happens when. you're really sick right when you really. say you're like God I can't wait to be. healthy yeah and God I appreciate it but. when you're healthy like yeah normal day. exactly whatever everything's fine yeah. yeah until you're sick again and you're. going like oh I had a good yeah and I. still you know like sat around watch TV. or something it's just so hard to keep. perspective you know it's so hard to. realize how fortunate you are like when. you're saying you're looking at the. child that doesn't have legs like you. can see how how lucky you were yeah you.

really are yeah yeah and I'm there's. that kid is a lot luckier than somebody. else too when you're injured like that. do you um does that sort of Aid your. writing in a way because a lot of times. when you're dealing with uh characters. you know you're dealing with characters. that are involved in combat yeah you. know and especially the gray man yeah. like he's always injured yeah I've I've. worked all that stuff in before I've. done a lot of like sort of like gunshot.

wound management and training and stuff. like that so that that works itself in. there but just the injuries um at one. point he had a hydrocodone addiction or. he has some kind of uh yeah some sort of. opioid and um I don't and it's funny. because at the time everybody's like. does do you have do you have a. and I'm like nobody's asking me if I'm. an assassin you know they're only asking. me if I'm popping pills. um but I I can understand how somebody. could could get on you know because I. was taking them for pain and when the.

pain got you know low enough I didn't. take them regularly but I still like I. would have a panic attack if I didn't. have some access to hydrocodone because. it when it flares up I mean there's. nothing that makes it go away that I. know of but uh it's I have a good friend. who was an MMA fighter who had his nose. smashed in a fight and got his nose. fixed and like crushed all the bones and. he got hit with an elbow Brennan Shaw. and uh he fought this guy Mirko crocop. was like a legendary assassin like one.

of the greatest MMA fighters of all time. and you guys know smashed one he Brendan. wanted winning the fight by KO but then. afterwards his nose was [ __ ] and then. he had to get it reconstructed like. literally rebuilt and uh he got hooked. on pain pills and he didn't even realize. it yeah and he was just popping all day. and then finally one of his friends is. like hey man how many [ __ ] pills are. you taking like what are you doing yeah. and then they took the pills away from. him he just went cold turkey and got off. of it and he's never been back since but. he said it was scary yeah he said I. didn't realize I was hooked but then the.

fear is he gets some other injury and he. needs you know it's like you hear about. these people like don't give me anything. because I'm addicted it's like oh my God. that's that's probably stressful for the. doctor too I have to do some procedure. without giving somebody well I'm not. addicted to painkillers but uh I don't. like them yeah I I only I had one knee. surgery I've had three knee surgeries. but I had one of them in 93 and they. gave me I can't remember it was percocet. or Vicodin but they gave it to me and I. remember sitting on my couch feeling so.

stupid I was like uh I'm like oh my god. I've never taken this again I'd like I'd. rather be in agony than than deal with. this but that's just me yeah my my. chemistry doesn't work with those things. I don't like it yeah. if I if I'm really in pain I don't even. really notice I take it I just have less. pain but there's there's been times. where I've been like all right I'm going. to be standing for a long time I'm going. to take one now like preemptively or. whatever and I feel Dopey and so I do.

get that Dopey feeling but like when. you're really taking it to deal with. pain somehow it goes to another part of. your brain or something and I and I. don't feel Dopey at all when I take a. Hydrocodone unless I take one I probably. shouldn't well that's very fortunate. that you haven't had problems with. addictions with them because it is. pretty common yeah I mean I will go six. weeks without taking one and then I'll. take two a day for three weeks if I hurt. myself or whatever and then are you. aware you're like hmm I've been doing. this a lot yeah and you want to it's.

funny like I I don't feel like. anything's different but my wife will be. like what's wrong and I'm like nothing. and she's like shake a hydrocodone I'm. like yeah but I'm sitting here with a. small muffin like everything's fine and. she's just like I guess I just your. frequency is a little different yeah a. little glassy or something I don't even. sense myself but um yeah no if I've been. taking it for a while it's just kind of. like all right. really you know assess whether I need it. um but yeah it's I probably take. 12 a month or something do you know uh.

Diamond Dallas Page the pro wrestler he. had a series of like pretty horrible. back injuries obviously he's doing crazy. pro wrestling big giant guy yeah other. giant guys are smashing him and throwing. them to the ground and he developed a. yoga program to sort of deal with his. pain and he's got you know like his. entire back is arthritic but because of. the yoga and because he does it every. day he's pain-free and super flexible. and very agile yeah pretty amazing and. his program I know a lot of Grapplers.

have utilized his program because it's. very specific to those kind of dynamic. movements cool it's really good it's got. his own kind of yoga every fourth day I. just do stretching like I don't do. weights um but I don't have anything. organized it's just I'm just doing what. I think you do it by yourself yeah yeah. do you find you like doing it by. yourself because it's sort of meditative. and it sort of helps you think about the. stuff you're writing yeah I'm usually. listening to an audiobook or something. like when I work out I don't even think. about working I don't want to work out. I'll sort of write down what I'm going.

to do and I try and do a little bit more. than I did last time or another rep or. better form or you know some little. Improvement on because I can see what I. did when I did whatever back in biceps. three days ago. um. but like when I stretch it's it it is. meditative because I don't know it's. kind of like I hate to use that term me. time but you know it's it's so like it's. so like this I go in there and nobody's. in there and I'm just kind of doing my. thing and it makes me feel good. afterwards and I'm happier doing it than.

not doing it and I'm able to you know. sort of multitask and get some work done. listening to. audiobooks yeah that's how I feel about. it too I do I think of it as me time I. like working out by myself I've worked. out with trainers before especially with. martial arts but when it comes to uh. weight training especially because I. don't do stuff where I need a spotter I. don't lift heavy weights yeah same. either yeah me either do you do cold. there like ice bath you do yeah I do it.

first thing in the morning every day. that looks like the hardest thing of all. it's not it's not nah you get used to it. wow it's like everything else I did it. today but they say it's really good for. you it's great for you people that I. respect say oh my God you've got to do. this and I'm kind of like you should. read or listen to or watch uh YouTube. videos from Andrew huberman he's a. professor out of Stanford who's done a. fantastic job of breaking down the. benefits of cold and heat therapy yeah. and uh it wraps up your dopamine by like. 200 percent and it'll last for hours.

reduces inflammation produces all these. cold shock proteins that are fantastic. for your body and then heat and cold. together the contrast therapy is also. very very good for you but just heat. alone you know they did a study out of. Finland that showed that four times a. week of the sauna for 20 minutes had a. 40 decrease in all-cause mortality. everything Strokes heart attacks cancer. wow everything because of the heat shock. proteins because you're you're first of. all it's a static cardio because you're.

sitting there and your heart is jacked. you know your heart rate because the. heat your heart rate goes yeah I mean. when I'm in the sauna I wear a chest. strap I wear a polar strap so I can see. what's going on and my heart rate. regularly being the 150s oh my 40s 150s. yeah especially when it gets to like 20. minutes yeah 25 minutes yeah because uh. you know I'm I've got it to 190 195. degrees and I'm sitting there sweating. to suffering and I generally do it post. training so I'll go in high heart rate.

already just got done with the workout I. try to go in when my I want to go in at. a like a 9900 beats per minute as I. enter yeah and then I enter into this. [ __ ] sauna that's just hell it's. perfect it just keeps keeps that heart. rate you have somebody like looking out. for you checking you're like yeah all. right no no I'm not smart I want the. cold plunge once for 20 minutes with no. one around me yeah you need an ejection. seat Well the cold plunge is the worst.

because you can't get out like with the. the sauna you can kind of open the door. and just get out of there the cold. plunge like you're underwater up to your. neck like if something went wrong and I. had to get out of there if I blacked out. like yeah what kind of [ __ ] you're gonna. you're gonna Jim Morrison yeah I don't. yeah I don't recommend doing that yeah. but three minutes is nothing yeah three. minutes is normal it's like I don't like. it which is why I do it like if every. morning I'm like maybe today I should. just you know do this one shut up [ __ ]. yeah yeah just get in there maybe today. I won't wake up with the cold plunge. shut up [ __ ] yeah so I have this one.

part of my brain that tells my body what. the [ __ ] to do yeah but my body's like. sinning oh he's sick signals like today. maybe we did maybe today would be a nice. day to relax yeah like I have all those. little games that my my brain plays on. me I just don't listen seven days a week. with with working out like but when it's. about time to work out it's like ah this. might be a day you know yeah I'm a. little tired or I can think of nine. other things I need to do and blah blah. and and now I've it takes a while to. like discipline is like a muscle yeah. you know this and and um and because I.

wasn't when I you know I wish I worked. out when I was 25 as hard as I do now. I'd probably you'd see a difference yeah. because it's like you know I probably. don't take it eat enough protein and you. know I'm 55 so it's it's but but I am. definitely there's definitely benefits. but every day it's it's starting from. scratch going like yeah it's like yeah. this might be the day and always and I'm. always happy I I did it I call it your. inner [ __ ] yeah yeah you got to conquer. your inner [ __ ] I have a t-shirt that I. sell yes conquer your inner [ __ ] I.

think that's what it is it's like. there's a thing that everybody has and. this idea that these people that are. like super dis discipline don't have. that feeling like David Goggins who's. the most disciplined [ __ ] human being. has ever walked the face of planet Earth. I love his book or his first book He's a. his second book's even better he's. amazing yeah and David says sometimes I. look at my sneakers for a half hour. before I put those [ __ ] on he. procrastinates like he'll think about. because he knows he's gonna push himself. through hell yeah so he'll be honest.

about it but he's never lets that inner. [ __ ] win yeah I mean if if if he's if. he's hearing that every day then that's. pretty inspiring this is how crazy David. is David sent me a photo of his toe. yesterday let me show I'm gonna send. this to you Jamie because it's so crazy. because he was uh just telling me he was. just sending me some stuff about like. things he's been doing and you know he. thinks of it as like he literally says. that it's like he's gaining Knowledge. from these suffer sessions from these.

you know Marathon runs it'll do on a. regular basis and like what whatever. he's getting out of there he's like I'm. getting like like he thinks of it as. like that's his toe. oh my God yeah I told him I go bro that. belongs in a [ __ ] mummy's mommy's. foot in the zoo any of those other toes. would be rather that's like a mummy like. that looks like something in a music let. me see that again Jamie. that looks like something on a mummy. like that's something in a museum right.

or that's something that doesn't look. like a human toe that looks like. something different like what is that. what is that that's crazy and this guy. does that to himself all the time I mean. he runs on the he his toes fall his. toenails fall off all the time like he. never keeps toenails just fall off but. that thing is so disgusting how crazy is. that. and David doesn't give a [ __ ] he's like. tape that [ __ ] up keep running like he.

he just doesn't care he's he's so crazy. that he had bone on bone on his knee. that where it was so bad that the bone. was starting to deform oh my God and so. you know what he did right he went in. for an operation they literally saw his. bone yeah cut it down and move it so. it's parallel. yeah look at insane look at his toes.

they're insane is that just for Milo I. mean surely he knows something about. Footwear so he's just like it's just the. amount of hours and miles and the pain. and and it's his mind it's all in his. mind and that's what he works on I mean. what he's doing when he's running like. that is just he's extracting the maximum. amount of human potential yeah out of. what his mind and his body is capable of. doing it and then he goes to sleep and. does it all right back when it started.

2016 when he had almost a. a full nail well that's after 70 miles. in the snow minus five degrees eight. inches of snow with standard running. sneakers feet paid the price obviously. yeah I think because in a reasonable. position there Jesus Christ so that's no. nail that's his nail fell off there yeah. his nails fall off all the time and he's. doing a photo shoot like I would be like. give me the hospital well he wants. everybody to know yeah this [ __ ] doesn't. come free yeah you know like and the. knee if you see his name find out that. image of his knee do you have that I can.

find it if you don't have it but the. image of his knee like post-surgery is. so gnarly and I met him in Vegas he's. walking around with no limp and then he. pulls up his sleep his uh pant leg to. show his leg and he can take his fingers. and just he's got so much edema in his. legs that he can just look at that oh. that's his hand print yeah that's his. handprint so he can grab and like smush. all the tissue around his shin so that's. what his knee looked like oh my goodness. look at all those screws so they see.

that you can see that line that line. they took like a wedge out of his knee. and then how to cut it so that it was. that it was parallel because one side of. it had overgrown because he's just bone. on bone yeah osteophytes is the way the. bone grows yeah that's the mind I mean. that's just the Mind forcing the body to. do what the mind wanted I mean it's. regardless it's amazing what humans can. do if if you know they have to properly.

motivated yeah the thing is like he. doesn't even have no he doesn't have to. yeah he's he's trained that muscle to an. incredible degree he's so interesting. he's wealthy but he doesn't even have a. car really doesn't even own a car. doesn't buy a car no it's like [ __ ] it. my wife has a car wow like it's like he. says all this money from his book yeah. he's like 20 million dollars yeah just. runs every day torches himself lives. Spartan yeah and just can't stop won't. stop and it's a super inspirational for.

other people that's the thing it's like. you don't have to be that to get you. know benefit from what he's going. through exactly that's the thing it's. like what he's done is provide millions. of people with this Unstoppable fuel. right like this fuel for the body yeah. and for the mind like you see like if. David Goggins can do it and he talks. openly about how he used to be 300. pounds right he was lazy and then became. this Unstoppable force and he's just.

like you he's just like me he's just a. person and he talks about his fears he. talks about his anxieties he talks about. his procrastination just doesn't let it. get him doesn't let him get him keeps. going wild it is amazing the the the. what the human body can do if if the. mind is on the same page right and that. the fact that those people are out there. I mean that kind of understanding of. human potential yeah that's got to fuel. your work too right that's gotta like. fuel your creativity like when you're.

talking about guy like Court Gentry this. is like insanely exceptional person yeah. knowing that there's insanely. exceptional people that are out there. that are just like one of one like a. David Goggins yeah yeah no I I've you. know there's. there's a farmer that a tree fell in his. leg and he had to cut his leg off we're. talking about stuff like that earlier. and and crawl you know like a mile and. you you see these things and you go like. don't don't tell me what people say that. like it's this it's unrealistic it's. like it's improbable it's not unreal you.

know it's not impossible and and um you. know it's like I don't think there's. anything in my books medically that that. doesn't make sense it if you had the. mindset to get through it and even in. the first book like he's shooting. himself up with with like Veterinary. drugs or something I can't remember what. to to you know get his heart rate back. up for this final fight even though it's. going to make him bleed more you know. it's just like he's so. goal driven that that's the only thing. that matters and what what comes after. it doesn't matter you know yeah and um.

and you get that from seeing people that. are just that committed and you've read. books I'm sure you've known about like. hell week and uh you know selection and. assessment at Delta Force and stuff and. they just put you through. stuff that you know I couldn't do it but. I can talk about it yeah is that a a. weird part of the Imposter syndrome It's. like because you're writing you're kind. of embodying this character yeah and. then you have to have to kind of compare. yourself to who this human being is yeah.

and the fact that I don't have military. experience. um you know it I I tried to make up for. it by like learning specifics and stuff. like that and and honestly I people in. the military love my books but people on. I've heard from people on FBI hostage. Rescue Team they'll love something when. I wrote about them and I don't know any. of them you know it's just like I hear. about it after the fact. um I I think I I I was a Ghostwriter for. a a book a guy that was a military dude.

early in my career and he's brilliant. guy and I'm really proud of the book but. he uh he would just be telling me. stories and the thing that he might have. been focused on in the story wasn't the. interesting thing to me I'd be like wait. what did you say about how you took. makarovs off of a dead Taliban guy and. didn't you know or just some little. ancillary thing so it's kind of like. what I bring to the table is I mean. Fanboy or whatever it's just it's some. sort of like.

um a buddy of mine who's a SWAT. um officer he was showing me pictures of. some breaching they're doing and all. this other stuff and then I was like. wait why did they why did you blow a. hole in that wall there he's like oh. we're just making a gun Port because. there was an angle and then he starts. talking about something else I was like. go back to the gun Port explain that to. me you know and then it's just like that. works its way in his book because it's. like there's there's the Nugget that. I've never heard of that I need to know. details and why that would do that and. it's like that's what I want to. incorporate in the book so you know. asking the right questions I got to fly. in an F-18 last year.

um which was an amazing experience. obviously very rare for a civilian but. every little thing about it you know. like what the air smelled and tasted. like and you know like what it felt like. I get to file that and you know just. every little bit of that you know works. its way into the box and you know. sometimes it's mundane stuff but. sometimes it's really cool stuff too how. difficult it is it how difficult is it. to when you're writing stuff about like. International policy and you're writing. stuff about like how people would be. deployed and how like a special.

operations group would be deployed how. difficult is it to kind of even get a. read of what would go on like some of it. is I'm sure classified a lot of it's. classified and so there is this point. where I just make stuff up but I I try. and build with as much detail as. possible I mean I have I have this book. called the U.S intelligence committee. and it's like onion skin paper and it's. like that thick and it's like every unit. every everything that's not denied or. sub Rosa and um and what's up Rosa uh.

just uh denied you know like Black Ops. or you're like things that they don't. admit I don't know why they call it sub. Rose open uh it's like under the red I. don't know what that means um but anyway. the it's it's things that they don't you. know admit to doing and you know there. there's secrecy subrosis literally means. uh under the rose in new Latin since. ancient times the rose is often been.

associated with secrecy and ancient. mythology Cupid gave a rose to. Hippocrates. the god of Silence to keep him from. telling about the indiscretions of Venus. hypocrates. interesting yeah it's just a term they. use in in the government a lot for. something that's you know you have to. learn all those terms too which is. interesting in Sierra six where Court. who doesn't have a military background. that's integrated with this group that. does yeah when you go back 12 years yeah. and you know he's got to kind of learn. all those phrases and they're all.

frustrated that he doesn't know what the. [ __ ] yeah yeah I mean he literally. doesn't know what they call the you know. the mess hall or whatever you know the. these different names for different. things yeah and um because he wouldn't I. when I when I wrote him in the beginning. like the wars were going on and I knew. that you know there's going to be a lot. of really good authors writing this. stuff that are downrange right now and I. ain't one of them yeah sadly uh but you. know I was like I want my guy to be. different everybody was a Navy SEAL at. that point this was before Bin Laden you.

know but everybody was an ABCO and in in. every book and I wanted somebody that. Not only was in the Navy SEAL didn't. even really have that background so his. back story is is that his father uh was. a police officer sir that ran a firearms. training school in Florida and uh and he. Court as a child was in these shoot. houses with these people and then he you. know grew and grew and grew fired you. know tens of thousands of rounds a month. and all this other stuff and just turned.

him into something else yeah it's a very. interesting storyline it's a very. interesting origin story thanks you know. because it's very different yeah I just. want a different you know and um and. then I I do think it it narratively it. adds to the story that he's not you know. SEAL Team Six and doesn't have a bunch. of buddies you know that are Team guys. and the guys on his paramilitary team in. special activities division in cr6 they. don't like him at all like they don't.

get why he's there but he's there. because he's been an assassin for the. CIA since he's 20 and had done some. operations in Russia and they needed a. guy on the ground that had a certain. level of tradecraft abilities that these. former seals didn't have so he's forced. into the team he doesn't want to do it. they don't want him to do it but he's. also a guy that's not going to give up. he's going to die before he gives up do. you ever run plot lines and things that. you're writing about. past people that may know.

the the way those things are handled and. done and see if you're doing it. correctly yeah yeah I've talked to CIA. guys regularly or military people and. you know I always hear you know here's. the non-classified version or here's. what I can tell you I I've been sitting. at the Pentagon and I've asked a. question and they're like I went to the. Pentagon a few times yeah really yeah. yeah so they bring you in yeah hey like. Mark come on down we want to talk to you. yeah the first book I did with Tom. Clancy I wasn't allowed to say that I.

was working with Tom Clancy because they. didn't know if the book was going to be. good or come out or whatever so it was. so frustrating because it's like I'm I. mean they're going like hi I'd like to. talk to somebody about something and uh. I've written these paper back yeah I. mean it's not like I'm talking to the. generals or anything like that but I. mean it's yeah there's people I've I've. been on uh gosh I've been at like Camp. Pendleton in California and the Navy. Base San Diego got on the Destroyer. um got to go out to the A-10 thing at.

Nellis Air Force where they're the. warthogs and I've had some like really. amazing experiences and it's all kind of. non-classified there's public. information officers you know with each. thing in the military and you you go. through them or in some examples I've. just known a guy like the my buddy rip. that I wrote the book with. um who who now incidentally has his own. foundation in Ukraine and is supporting. a battalion and foreign fighters in. Ukraine he's spent his entire career as.

a Marine Corps officer retired and then. this war with Russia kicks off and he's. over there trying to support uh you know. the the war effort um but you know he. was just a guy I met at the Pentagon wow. and uh. came from there but yeah no I I how do. you even how does that conversation even. get like how do you get in the pentagram. I mean it's happened a few different. ways because I I had a guy um a friend. of my brothers was a marine at one point. and he he put me in contact with a. marine Aviation guy and he was going to.

be at the Pentagon and I went up there. and saw him and and rip was a guy that. liked my books and we were talking and. he just said he worked at the Pentagon. and I'm like I'm in DC all the time you. know I'd love to come up there and and. uh and we did it that way so I've met uh. CIA guys former CIA guys I've met people. that say there's something and you kind. of figure out after a while no they're. not. um you know they're kind of like oh no. yeah it's funny uh there's a term for it. that a buddy of mine used it's called he.

calls it institutional puffery it's like. these guys actually are somebody but. they're making themselves out like you. know they're the one that killed Bin. Laden they're the you know they're the. guy that you know institutional puffers. yeah yeah I love that term yeah Scott. Swanson. um it it's like people that are legit. and they're badass but they're not. badass enough for themselves for this. story you know my buddy Brad Taylor. who's a fantastic uh thriller author a. former Delta guy or Army special Mission. Unit guy he he's like you know you never.

meet a parachute rigger for Delta Force. like everybody you meet is a is an. operator for Delta Force you know it's. just like this is a lot of baloney about. what people say. um you know he's like yeah we loved our. parachute records but no one ever says. they're that's what they did they're. always like yeah I'm just in Delta it is. an interesting thing like the motivation. that people have to Puff themselves up. yeah yeah yeah and I'm. I think one of my real talents is that I. like to be the least interesting guy in. the room because I like to just learn.

from from other people and and you know. it's just fascinating to me I don't need. anything and so if somebody was a. parachute rigger for Delta Force that. would be the most fascinating person. that I could talk to probably it is. interesting yeah it's every. job in that regard especially in that. space is very interesting yeah. absolutely and you know I have such. respect for the men and women that you. know go and serve their country because. I've met 20 year old female on a.

destroyer who her job to bring the. helicopters in you know and and you're. just like wow when I was 20 what was I. doing I was not doing that yeah I wasn't. you know like. responsible for a for a ship and a and a. airframe you know meeting up at the same. place at the same time on a on a deck. you know moving deck that's one of the. things that the military and Special. Operations Special Operations in. particular does is it makes. extraordinary human beings yeah like. those people that can do that job and.

who have been there they're just very. different than most people that you meet. yeah they're very unique and very. they're just strong they just have a. different kind of character yeah there's. a different level a requirement of them. that's so different than the average. person. that to to not know them to not know. that that's even a thing is uh it's it's. really unfortunate for a lot of people. they don't know the the potential that. some humans have right and that they. have and oftentimes this potential only.

arises out of extreme need right out of. those kind of jobs and those kind of. requirements yeah I mean the whole point. of hell week from Navy Seals is to get. you to believe because it's like you. know we're going to give you every. reason you know so so what's left are. the people that are like you can kill me. and I'm not going to quit right and it's. I have such respect for that I don't. think I could stay awake for five days. that's the thing that like out of all. the stuff they do I'm going like ah man. I'm tired I'm tired yeah but I mean you.

know it's incredible what what they go. through yeah it's um you do you feel. like a responsibility when you're. writing to sort of reflect that that you. know you have such a deep respect for. these people that you you have to write. that in a way that sort of uh portrays. that in an accurate sense yeah. absolutely and um you know I've had. villains who are U.S military or U.S. government people or stuff like that and. I've had people like complain about that.

you know like they want all the bad guys. to have accents you know like can't be. Americans but I mean it's just like you. know the there's there are all walks of. life all over the place you know there's. but I I do feel a responsibility to. again it's sort of the Fanboy in me it's. like I have such respect for for these. people and what they do and and you know. the responsibility they have often at. very young ages you know and and um it's. it's a fascinating thing to me to to.

write about and to talk about and and. again it's just I like to. build stories around reality and then at. some point go off you know where. the guys jumping off of. an airplane and without a parachute and. finding a way down you know when you're. researching villains and corruption like. uh do you uh have you ever met with. people that are corrupt have you met. with like real villains like are you. just getting this from your imagination. uh no I.

a lot of reading you know the the my new. book involves uh. Russian mafia slash Russian government. which are one and the same in my opinion. and um and so I was I'm looking at real. cases I actually had finished the book. and it involves Americans who are being. influenced by Russia or taking money. from russian-born intelligence and um. Americans in government and um just a. couple weeks ago this guy in FBI guy in.

New York who's like head of. counterterrorism at one point but he was. also involved in the sanctions Uh. Russian sanctions he just got indicted. for taking money from Oleg darabowski. which is one of the old one of the. oligarchs that you know Putin supports. or supports Putin or both and um you. know these things happen and they just. caught a uh a Russian Gru guy that was. intern about to intern at the. international criminal court in in The. Hague and they just caught a German BND.

the German foreign intelligence. [Music]. guy who had been spying for the Russians. for a long time and like all that. stuff's really fascinating to me so I I. want to learn about it as much as I can. and then write a fictional you know. version of it and I'd actually written. this book before these three things came. out but I mean the Russians have been. doing stuff like that for a while so. yeah it's disturbing when you find. someone like that yeah you know like. there was is this the same guy the guy.

that was a part of. um uh going after Trump for Russia gate. where it turned out that he was actually. and he got indicted for conspiring with. Russia. um the American guy now that yeah do you. know that guy yeah yeah the most recent. one. um. yeah not manafort Jamie see if you can. find that guy do you know what I'm. talking you know what you said there was. a gentleman that was involved in. russiagate evolved in going after Trump.

for his ties with Russia and it turns. out that he was colluding with Russia. and that he was uh either colluding with. oligarchs or there was something. involved and he was recently indicted. that might be the same guy because it. was probably it was an oligarch. connection yeah um but probably the same. guy that's the people that have the. money outside of the U.S so I mean. outside of Russia so those are the. people that are going to be paying you. off yeah that was one of the more wild. things about the beginning of the. Ukraine war where they were going after. the oligarchs and taking their Yachts.

yeah yeah I was like well that's. fascinating well my book burner opens. with court blowing up Russian Yachts. just as something something to do just. as a as a as a side gig and then he gets. pulled into the main part of the story. um yeah I was down in St Lucia. researching it and this these people. came ashore in a in some kind of a. tender from a big yacht they were all. rushing I don't I don't know anything. about their story they could have been. totally on the up and up but I'm like. that's fascinating you know and this was. the war had been going on for a few. months but they're still those boats are.

still out there well the Russian thing. is so fascinating in general right you. have Putin who's this former KGB guy. who's in charge of the entire country. and all the oligarchs have to be with. him yeah they're 100 with him they they. hold his money and yeah he he allows. them to do what they do and they allow. him to do what he does and you know the. the war isn't affecting their children. or anything like that you know it's that. kids from the Euros or the the stands or.

you know like somewhere out in Siberia. those are the ones that are getting. thrown into the meat and grinder or. prisoners or things like that that. they're doing and so you know. Putin knows how to protect his. you know the people that support him and. he supports and it's you know it's a. mafia it's a kleptocracy he's an. autocratic you know kleptocrat and um. it's just uh it's a criminal Enterprise. and um he doesn't care how many people. die you know he's it he will continue.

they're just putting waves of of people. through with no training they had this. mobilization last fall and tens of. thousands of them are just running. across Fields getting killed it's World. War One stuff it's it's awful and not. only that they they have a crematorium a. traveling crematorium so they're. literally just throwing these bodies. into the burner and they're not giving. any sort of an account of how many. losses there's a report that some Wagner.

troops were stacking their dead guys up. as as basically sandbags and you know. that's pretty awful if you think about. it this is a horrible war and it was uh. Putin really miscalculated he people in. FSB told him what he wanted to hear and. they'd been they were supposed to be. setting up uh influence operations in. Ukraine for years and years but they've. been stealing the money and then when he. said you know this is now the right time. to do it and they basically said sure it.

is and uh things went really bad their. fifth uh fifth service in FSB that does. the foreign stuff. um I think really dropped the ball and. not dropped the ball I'm glad they. dropped the ball but I mean they they. told him what he wanted to hear I mean. if if you're an autocrat like that you. value loyalty over competence and you've. got to have loyalty people don't have to. be competent but they've got to be loyal. and for for you to survive and and um so. as these incompetent people that we're. all stealing from the government and.

they were also telling him you know this. is kind of this feedback loop he was. hearing what he wanted to hear that's. part of the problem too right that. they're hearing what they want to hear. because people are terrified to tell. them that news yeah yeah yeah I wouldn't. want to I wouldn't want to go to Putin. and say yeah we can't do this they said. it's the same thing with Xi Jinping that. nobody wants to tell him the bad news so. he doesn't even find out about things. that went wrong until quite a while. later yeah and I imagine that's. throughout history has always been the. case for those type of leaders sadly. when you're writing about all this stuff.

it's I mean it's such a complex and. nuanced landscape that you're. interacting with like. um how that's got to be one of the most. difficult parts of the job is like. incorporating these fictional narratives. in with this sort of very realistic. world yeah Espionage and crime and yeah. finding out what to use and what to. leave out is is really really hard. because I will be very fascinated with. something and I'm like it really doesn't. push the narrative forward and early in.

my career I would read these like really. dry government documents about this. thing and I wanted to prove that I read. it by throwing stuff into the story and. my editor would save me from that now. I'm now I'm self-correcting in that. matter but. um yeah you do. there's so much information and but but. what really makes me enjoy my books is. while I'm doing the research by myself I. come across something and I go like holy. [ __ ] people need to know about this and.

I'm not trying to preach I'm not trying. to give anybody a political view or. anything but it's like this happened and. so I'm going to do a version of this and. I've actually had people complain about. my books and be like well there's no way. of a Liberal Liberal female uh lawyer. would support this an Al-Qaeda guy in. prison and you know and I'm like okay. here's a picture of her I changed her. name I changed a couple of details but. the actual real person that was doing. that is you know is now in prison so.

um I I like to take as much from reality. as I can because that's all interesting. to me and then again fictionalize it get. wacko with it at some point and then try. and rein it back in a little well Mark. you do a great job they're very. captivating books I enjoy them very much. just want to say thank you for coming in. here congratulations on all your success. thank you looking forward to your next. books I appreciate it this is a great. opportunity for me my pleasure my. pleasure um so anybody who wants to get. these they're all available.

um how many books do you have now that. are gray man books uh the 12th the 12th. one is the and it comes out it comes out. February 21st oh so real close next week. yep yeah oh nice yeah and uh so I got an. advanced coffee but. um and um you're probably already. working on the next one yeah how deep. are you in the next one I'm about 40 000. words into the next one wow yeah wow. thank you well again congratulations and. uh thanks for coming man I really. appreciate you thanks a lot yeah I.

appreciate it my pleasure all right bye. everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. thank you. okay.