Joe Rogan Experience #1940 - Matt Taibbi

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day hello Matt iy Hey Joe how's it. going good to see you it's always so. hard to get rolling after you've been. talking I mean I'm always excited to see. you so we're just blabbing and now we're. rolling so what's cracking uh a lot a. lot it's been uh it's been a crazy uh a.

couple of months I have enjoyed your. work with the Twitter file I enjoy all. your work but I really have enjoyed the. Twitter files that has been some really. fascinating views behind the curtain it. it's uh it's it's been one of the. weirder more surreal experiences of my. life because you know as as a reporter. you you're always um kind of uh banging. away to try to get one little piece of. reality right like you you might make 30. or 40 phone calls to get one sentence uh.

the Twitter files is oh by the way here. you know uh take a laptop and look at. 50,000 emails you know full of all kinds. of stuff and so it's you know for for. somebody like me it's like a dream come. true we get to see all kinds of things. get the answers to questions that uh. we've had for years and it's it's been. really incredible has anything been. surprising to. you um.

a little bit I I I think going into it I. I thought that the um that the. relationship between the security. agencies like the FBI and the DHS and. companies like Twitter and Facebook I. thought it was a little bit less formal. like I I thought maybe they had kind of. an advisory role and what we find is. that it's not that it's it's very. formalized they have um a really intense. structure uh that they've worked out.

over a period of years where they have. regular meetings um they have a system. where the DHS handles um you know. censorship requests that come up from. the the states and the FBI handles the. international ones and they all float. all these companies and um it's a big. bureaucracy and we I don't think we. expect it to see that it's very bizarre. to me that they don't that they would. just openly call for censorship in. emails and these.

private Transmissions but ones that are. easily duplicated you could send them to. other people it could it can easily get. out like that they're so comfortable. with the idea that the government should. be involved in this censorship of what. turns out to be true information. especially when in regards to the hunter. Biden laptop that they would be so. comfortable that they would just send it. in emails yeah yeah well that I think. that shows you the mentality right like. that they they really genuinely felt. that that they were impregnable that.

they don't have anybody to answer to um. I mean a normal person doesn't put. incriminating things in emails because. we all have the expectation that someday. it might come come out you know uh but. these folks didn't act that way I mean. they you see I was I was especially. shocked by an email from uh a staffer. for Adam Schiff the Congress person the. California congressman and they're just. outright saying we would like you to.

suspend the accounts of this journalist. and anybody who retweets information. about this. committee you know I mean this is this. is a congre this is a member of Congress. right most of these people have legal. backgrounds they're they they got. lawyers in the office for sure um and. this is the this is the house. intelligence committee uh you would. think they would have better uh. operational security another moment that. was shocking to me there was a um. there's an email from an FBI agent uh.

named Elvis Chan in San Francisco to. Twitter and they're setting up this. signal group uh which is going to. include all the top sort of censorship. Executives at all the big companies and. it's a Word document that has all the. phone numbers of all these important. Executives and the email just the. subject line reads phone numbers uh. right and the word dock is just called.

secret phone numbers right and I'm. thinking this is how they taught you to. do it at quanico really you know I mean. like I mean even a journalist can't miss. that you know what I'm. saying call it something else you know I. I don't know that that that part of it. was amazing so strange it's so strange. to get such a peak because I don't think. anybody ever anticipated that something. like this would happen where Twitter. would get sold to an eccentric. billionaire who's intent on letting all.

the information get released yeah I mean. I I think Elon Musk. essentially he spent $44 billion to. become a whistleblower of his own. company yeah uh and I mean I I don't. really fully know his motives in in. doing that um I think he's got a pretty. a developed sense of humor though yes uh. and that comes through I think he he. gets a kick out of seeing all this stuff. come out on Twitter which used to be.

kind of the private stomping ground of. all these whiny journalists and now here. here is all this information that is. just horrifying to all of them um I mean. that's a it $44 billion is a lot to. spend on that thrill but uh I'm glad he. did well he truly believes that censored. social media is a threat to democracy he. really believes that absolutely yeah and. I believe it too yeah I just don't have. $44 billion even if I did I'd be like H.

I don't want that heat right right yeah. I don't I don't think that's what I. would spend it on but uh no he he he. believes that I think he. also um I think he also believes that. the credibility of these. companies um can only be restored by. telling. people what what they talk about in. private or what they have been talking. about you know with the government and. that sort of thing yeah so um he might.

be right about that you know we'll see I. guess I think he is I mean it's going to. be interesting it's going to be. interesting to see how this plays out. there's an an amazing amount of. resistance against him and you know. there the just the publicity campaign. against him has been fascinating to. watch people go from thinking that Elon. Musk is the savior that's bringing us. these amazing electric cars and. Engineering new reusable Rockets too. he's an alt-right piece of [ __ ] who. wants Donald Trump back in the office. and it's like it's very wild it the the.

the speed with which they can sort of. Shuffle somebody into the Hitler or the. month club routine right like you know. we we've always done this with. foreigners you know whether it's Nora or. Saddam Hussein or mosovich or Assad or. whatever it is like we have a playbook. for cranking out negative information. about uh you know foreigners who get in. our way for whatever reason but now we.

we've we've kind of U refined that. technique for domestic people who are. inconvenient you know I think they did. it with Trump obviously um you know they. try to do it with t Tucker Carlson with. you uh you know I mean you got a taste. of that for a few a few times yeah. that's interesting right uh and then you. know with with with Elon yeah he went. from being the guy who made electric. cars sexy to like you know.

something to the right of Victor Orban. in in like 10 seconds it's it's amazing. it is amazing and the narrative has. spread through Progressive people well. they'll just say it now it's like. they've reached the memo the Memo's got. to them and then they just I hear people. in La I hear people that I know like oh. elon's just so crazy it's like it was. something happened to him he went nuts. and he's a right- Winger now like how. what are you saying like what what. examples do you have like they don't. have an example they just have this. narrative that reached them to signal.

like Elon bad now oh Elon bad now Elon. bad now Elon bad now and they just start. saying it and you go like what what. examples are you using of like his. behavior well he let Trump back on the. platform okay but the taliban's there. right yeah exactly you didn't know have. a problem with the Taliban the Taliban. just bought blue check marks do you know. that did did they really I didn't know. that they're buying blue check marks so. they could be verified I'm the the real. terrorist the [ __ ] Taliban is on and. nobody has a problem with it the CCP. he's on Twitter right no one has a.

problem with it right like Trump they. let Trump back on look Trump is. hilarious he's a ridiculous person but. don't you think it's better that his. tweets get out there and then a bunch of. people get to attack him in the tweets. and if those tweets that people attack. him with are good if people are saying. good things then those things get. retweeted and liked and then they rise. up to the top of the algorithm it's all. good like you need a voice against. someone like that you can't have that.

guy howling into the wind on some qinon. forum and all those wackos just so. they're only talking to each other with. no push back at all if you really don't. like Trump you want him on Twitter. absolutely you want that guy to have. some push back you want people to be. talking against what he's saying you. want Twitter the real Twitter now which. will actually fact check everybody they. fact check Biden right they'll they'll. fact check him so if he says something. stupid they'll go no no no that's not. what's true here's what's true right and. and that would be good and that was.

actually for a while Twitter's official. policy they had something called the. public interest policy which. specifically laid out exactly what you. said like when when a world leader uh no. matter who it is says anything we want. it to be out there because we want it to. be debated we want people to see it we. wanted people to talk about it we want. people to reach conclusions about it and. one of the things that we found in the. Twitter files was after January 6 they.

there was this intense debate within the. company where uh they were basically. saying oh thank God we're going to. repeal the public interest policy or. we're going to poke a hole in it right. um and no longer have that belief system. that just because somebody is a world. leader we need to hear what they have to. say so they invented a new um a new. policy called glorification of violence. or they they called it that and. essentially what they said was you had.

to look at Trump not in terms of each. individual tweet uh but in in terms of. what they call the context surrounding. his whole career uh all the people who. followed him whether or not they were. violent whether or not they said the. things that were offensive it's like the. speech version of stochastic terrorism I. don't know if you ever heard that that. term it's stochastic terrorism is this. idea that um you you can incite people.

to Violence by saying things that aren't. specifically inciting but are. statistically likely to uh create you. know somebody who will do something. violent even if it's not individually. predictable um and that's what they did. with Trump they basically invented this. concept that yes he may not have. actually incited violence but his whole. the whole totality of his Persona is is. inciting so we're going going to strike. him and so so they sort of massively.

expanded the the purview of what of. things they can censor just in that one. moment uh and it it's you know you can. see it in these dialogues how how they. came to that decision which is just. fascinating it's just such an. extraordinary amount of power to give. people the ability to censor people on. the biggest public form in the world. it's so extraordinary and the fact that. they can come up with these. justifications for why this is a good. idea with without anyone pushing back.

without anyone saying do you do you. understand where this goes to this this. eventually leads to government control. of all thought and speech this is where. you're going you're allowing the. government to influence you based on one. specific problematic individual and that. could spread out to every one of us. right all of us easily quickly right. right I mean we we heard at the world. economic Forum right we heard the Brian. Ste was there Brian Ste Brian Stalter is. now at the world economic Forum what can. we do about these problems.

he looked very comfortable there didn't. of course he does he's with evil lizard. people that are trying to control the. world that's his bosses he knows how to. handle that kind of situation I've been. around e evil evil lither. people he looked he looked as happy as. as maybe he's ever been well he's. probably very excited just to be working. again in any way shape or form that's. true you know he's not a guy that really. supposed to be in front of a camera. right he's supposed to be a journalist. but he's not even good at that so he's. what he's doing now is holding water for.

the evil leaders of the world who want. to Institute hate speech policies. Nationwide and you know centralized. digital currency and they want everybody. to eat bugs and you will own nothing and. be happy this is the [ __ ] people he's. working for now cuz he's basically a. prostitute and you know they they hired. him to go over there and do that and. he's like what can we do what can we do. better what can we do different to get. everybody to stand in line what can we. do and and and for a journalist to sit.

there there was that one moment where. that woman ver yova she's an EU official. and she's talking about hate speech laws. and then she she she touches the knee of. somebody sitting next to her and saying. you're going to have that in America. soon yeah uh and Brian stelter is. sitting there grinning yeah you know. like that's not offensive to him like a. EUR a European basically saying oh yeah. you're going to have this too soon like. even though it's completely antithetical. to everything that we believe in in this. country like you know well I think when.

you working in a corporate news. structure and you could speak to this. better than I could obviously but I. think when you're working in an. environment where you have editors and. people in your ear and you have. producers and you have narratives that. the company is pushing and then you have. sponsorships that you're beholden to. it's very difficult to form any sort of. problematic or controversial independent. thought and then try to express it. publicly you're not going to do it it's. just too scary and sketchy. so when you're trying to keep that job.

and here's a guy like Brian stelter who. already lost one of the biggest gigs in. all of Broadcast News he was on [ __ ]. CNN and then you know here he's standing. there and they're saying you you're. going to have hate speech laws in. America do he's like okay everything's. running smooth everyone smiling like he. he he doesn't he's not suitable for that. role that's he doesn't belong there you. don't have the stones to carry that. conversation in a way that's going to. benefit all these people that are. listening to it what you want is who's. in that position that goes hold on what.

do you think is hate speech what's hate. speech to you and what's hate speech to. me and who gets to decide yeah H how is. that going to be adjudicated like what's. what's your definition what's your def. definition of hate what's your. definition of speech like exactly you. know what I mean like there are a lot of. question context matter yeah and how do. you decide and obviously when you're. looking at things over text context gets. very blurry you don't know if someone's. joking around like there's so many pages. that I get sent that are satire I've got.

a hilarious one there's a new one Rick. Rubin sent me this this one he's like. this got to be satire right and it's. brilliant brilliant satire but there's. this person who has like the best. version of uh super liberal uh like my. children will never eat food from a gas. stove like like that kind of [ __ ] and. there's so many of these like it's hard. to tell who's who's what and what's real. and it's it's just one of those things. where you're you're. it's it's it's hard when you're looking.

things through text because people are. sneaky they're really good at it and. people are so ridiculous in real life. that a really subtle parody is very hard. to discern so is that hate speech if. someone's doing it as a parody is that. hate speech like when do you decide that. something is hateful and that's exactly. why traditionally in this. country judges have always said well. they haven't always said it but they. they eventually came around to the idea.

that we can't involve ourselves in these. questions they're they're too difficult. and it's not our job um we're going to. step in in only the most extreme cases. right so the the current standard is you. know Supreme Court case Brandon. brandenberg V Ohio which Outlaws. imminent uh uh incitement to imminent. Lawless action right so you have to be. basically saying you know let's go get. them go go get them let's break shoot. shoot that person like that's illegal.

speech right anything short of that. we're going to stay out of it because. it's just too it's too confusing it's. too complicated right like if you start. getting into what's satire what isn't. what's incitement what isn't like as we. see at companies like Twitter you know. you can spend endless amounts of time. building sand castles trying to figure. out what is what and and and it we'll. always end in in a place where the. government use you know. uh interprets it to its greatest.

Advantage yeah and and that's why we you. know we don't want it you know I mean it. It ultimately it's not a good thing for. uh for most people but it's just very. hard for people to realize even though. this thing that you're talking about. wielding this weapon will work against. your enemies it can ultimately also be. used against you that was the thing with. the Patriot Act when the you know indef. detention when they were talking about.

just being able to detain people and. Obama was like don't worry well I would. never do that but you're not going to be. in the president forever like someone. else is going to come along and perfect. example that next person was Trump right. well what if someone's crazier than him. like what if something happens what if. there's a some sort of a a nuke goes off. somewhere and then everybody gets way. more radicalized and then you can get a. really [ __ ] insane like a Stephen. King character what was that movie where. the the the one evil guy becomes.

president and oh God the Greg Greg uh. Stillson uh yeah Dead Zone Dead Zone. thank you I mean we're we're not far. removed from that in terms of plausible. plots that this wacky country can fall. into and that's the same thing with. censorship like they can use it against. you so like if you're you think you're. using this to push back against. right-wing extremism they can use that. to push back against Progressive ideas. that would generally benefit genuinely.

benefit good people genuinely benefit. families genuinely benefit people in. need genuinely benefit people in terms. of healthare and education they can stop. that they can stop that if it's. unprofitable with the same sort of tools. absolutely you got to have free speech. it's the most important thing we have. and it's the one thing that separates us. from everybody else so when you have. liberals and progressives that are. screaming against removing people from. platforms and stopping this and stopping. that understand what the [ __ ] you're. saying yeah and they and they don't.

right yeah I mean like it's just. convenience it'll work against my. enemies we you talk about uh how they. can use it to shut down things on the. other side like we see reports in in. these files of government agencies. sending lists of accounts that are. accusing the United States of uh vaccine. corruption now what they're really. talking about is pressuring foreign.

countries to not use generic vaccines. right and you know that's a liberal. issue that's a that's a progressive. issue uh like the progressives want. generic vaccines to be available to poor. countries okay uh but you know you can. you can use this tool to eliminate. speech about that if you want too right. like I think that's what they don't get. is that the significance is not who the. significance is the tool like what what.

is it capable of doing right right how. how easily is it employed and you know. how often is it used and and and and. they don't focus on that they focus on. oh it's Donald Trump so therefore we. want it I mean that's and that's where. their mistake is it's it's a very. interesting and very nuanced. conversation as to what should be. allowed and what should not be allowed. and why and I think it's complex and.

it's everchanging and it depends upon. the tools that are involved and it. depends upon what's the what are you. talking about then it also depends upon. like here's here's a big one that drives. me nuts about this January 6th why is it. okay for the FBI to have agents that. incite people to go into the capital why. is that okay what benefit is that for. society like how much how much influence. did they have how much rabble rout in. influence did they have how much.

coercion I mean what why is that okay so. so this is another topic that is. fascinating because it hasn't gotten a. ton of press but uh if you go back all. the way to the early 70s the the CIA and. the FBI got in a lot of trouble um for. various things the CIA for assassination. schemes involving people like Castro the. FBI for uh you know co-intel Pro and.

other programs domestic surveillance and. they made changes after Congressional. hearings the church committee uh that. basically said the FBI from now on you. have to have some kind of reason to be. following somebody or investigating. somebody you have to have some kind of. criminal predicate and we want you. mainly to be investigating cases but. after 911 they they peeled all this back. there was a series of Attorney General.

memos uh that essentially refashion what. the FBI does and now they don't have to. be doing crime fighting all the time now. they can be doing uh basically 100%. intelligence gathering all the time they. can be infiltrating groups for no reason. at all not to build cases but just to. get. information um and so that's that's why. that's why they're there they're like. they're they're in these groups they're. posted up out outside of the homes of of.

people they who they find suspicious but. they're not building cases and they're. not they're not investigating crimes. it's sort of like Minority Report right. it's pre- crime yeah and and the public. has accepted this you know without much. trouble you yeah there's a little bit of. pushback from people online then it goes. away where there's no real repercussions. like the governor Whitmer case right. where there's 14 people involved in.

kidnapping and 12 of them are FBI. informant right which is [ __ ] Bonkers. and then the two guys are doing hard. time they're like we thought it was. fantasy like we're we're idiots we. didn't know like one of the guys. literally said I never planned on doing. anything to me it was just just. fantasy yeah well I mean they're morons. who get talked into this and imagine. you're getting talked into this by 12. people who turn out to be informants. right wild yeah yeah and why are there.

so many informants you know you like. hanging around with [ __ ] head of The. Proud boys right the head of the proud. boys you didn't know that what's his. name Enrique toio yeah pulled that up he. was a [ __ ] inform it so this guy who. is at the head of the proud boyss the. guy who's organizing the things and get. he was an FBI inform it wow the you know. the story of The Proud boys the the real. origin story no I don't actually oh my. God the origin story is amazing the.

origin story here we go proud boy's. leader was prolific Informer for law. enforcement Enrique tario leader of the. proud boys extremist group has a pass. Informer for federal and local law. enforcement repeatedly working. undercover for investigators after he. was arrested in 2012 according to a. former prosecutor in transcript of a. 2014 Federal courp proceeding obtained. by. Reuters so the proud boys started off as. a joke on Anthony cumia's radio show.

where Gavin mcginness who is a regular. guest they made a joke about one of the. guys who was an intern and he was uh. they were doing a joke about him being. in a musical and the musical like proud. of my boy and they were singing a song. like we're the proud boys proud of my. boy and they're like we're going to put. together a group called The Proud boys. and so they decided to have like this. fake group of people and to get into. this group you had to they had to punch. you in the arm and you have to read off.

like remember different breakfast. cereals like it's all like really. hilarious stupid [ __ ] but then Gavin you. know Gavin's one of those guys that just. like he's a legitimate Maniac which was. great when he was running Vice and not. so great when he gets involved in. extremist groups right and so his idea. was like [ __ ] these these crazy antifa. people we're going to develop our own. group we're going to go after them we're. going to fight them when we go to these. cuz they would show up at any time he.

had to do speeches and they would they. would protest him he's like we're going. to beat the proud boys we're going to. show them we're going to fight him and. I'm like hey hey hey like that doesn't. end well right and obviously it ended. terribly and that's where the proud. boy's origin story come from that's. amazing it came from the Anthony kumia. radio. show from OPI and Anthony Anthony from. OPI and Anthony dude it's a joke like. he's Anthony came on the podcast and. told the origin story of it there's a. famous clip that's on YouTube and it's. hilarious and then it ends up being.

like you know a central issue in like. the presidential campaigns right like. yes it's nuts America couldn't be it. couldn't be more ridiculous dude but if. you know Anthony and you know Gavin like. I've know Gavin forever Gavin's just. nuts like he's not an extremist he's not. an evil person he's just nuts but he. [ __ ] up when he created that group I'm. like dude you can't just punch people in. the face because you punch people in the.

face they come back with a bat now you. have a war like this you you just can't. just say we're going to go hit people. like that always ends badly right right. right but he just was having fun and. kept pushing it he's a push the limits. push the envelope guy and then now it's. this hate group that people bring up in. political speech and the proud boys and. the white supremacists and like the. proud boys and they have a life of their. own now right now it's beyond they don't. even like him anymore they they k him. out of a meeting he went to a meeting in.

Vegas he's persona non grata in the. proud boys now he can't even go to the a. thing that he started as a joke has now. completely ran away from him because. like with any group right if you have a. group that people can join anyone can. join well anyone could join you're going. to get [ __ ] to join it of course and. you're also going to get law enforcement. and that's how you got this Enrique. tario guy right right wild yeah yeah. that's unbelievable so so they they I. guess they found is is Cooper operator. agreement yeah and what did he continue.

to be the the head of the the proud boys. after that I think they arrested him. recently that's the interesting also the. thing about these guys is they don't get. off scott free like they make you work. as an informant they they make you be a. snitch and then they put you in jail. right they'll still put you in jail but. just won't put you in jail for life like. okay we're going to give you 10 years. instead of 50 and so these guys just do. it anyway I mean they they treat you. like a real [ __ ] like they don't treat. like a half a [ __ ] or like you know hey.

we're going to work out a deal no they. treat you like a [ __ ] two days before a. far-right mob stormed the US capital. police arrested the leader of the proud. boys militia group for burning a black. lives matter flag at a different protest. wow that's convenient meanwhile he's. black which is hilarious right right the. fact that like you can't burn that flag. meanwhile if you burn an American flag. no problem at all right that's fine yeah. that's fine I mean I actually I'm I'm. I'm for that but yeah you're for them. arresting people for burning flag no no. no I'm I'm fine with people burning.

Flags if they feel like it I don't think. you should arrest people for burning a. flag like I don't think you should. arrest people for burning a piece of. paper right like you should be able to. burn if you want to burn burn something. in protest it's not like we can't make. more Flags right like what do you doing. yeah we got plenty if you want to buy a. flag and burn it okay that's your big. thing go ahead yeah exactly I think we. should make flags out of as bestas St. solve all the. problems that would make for a lot of uh. unphotogenic protests would be funny. like the.

[ __ ] uh I just you know I'm just. astounded by the the lack of ability to. see the future you know the lack of. ability to see where all this goes that. like in in letting this happen and not. being outraged and letting the. government creep into all aspects of. your life in this way there's no net. positive there's in the end it's just. government control of speech thought and. content and everything you do right and.

complete capture of the media and and. all of that you know and that's that's. you know that's kind of what we're. trying to to fight against and it's uh. you know the one heartening thing is. that is that. the the quote unquote mainstream press. is now really it's in freef Fall now. right it's its influence is is more and. more limited every day um you know the. problem is that uh something needs to.

step up in its place and and uh you know. but but they're. just they don't have any Authority at. all uh outside their own little bubble. anymore propaganda is a scary thing and. when you have uh mainstream news. organizations going along with what. appears to be propaganda with no push. back at all like where where is. journalism like journalism is such an. important part of. any sort of functioning culture where.

people need to find out what what is the. real information and there's people that. have a responsibility to try to find. that information and then give it to. people so they can make informed. decisions and they can know what what is. the workings behind the machine what's. the wiring what's happening how how are. these decisions getting made when the. corporate media doesn't do that anymore. we're [ __ ] and you in your time have. seen that you've seen this transition.

into like the media becoming an arm of. propaganda as opposed to what it was in. the 70s or what it was in the 60s where. it was the news this is what's happening. this is what we've uncovered this is our. undercover investigation these are our. our facts our informant has told us this. now we know that Nixon did this Kennedy. was aware of that we know these things. now because of real journalist M right. and it seems like for whatever reason.

there's two branches going on with. journalism there's people like you and. Barry Weiss and Glen Greenwald and the. substack people that are like hey hey. hey hey this is not what I [ __ ]. signed up for right I'm here to do. actual real journalism and you people in. these gigantic mainstream organizations. are losing your [ __ ] minds you're. crazy and you're doing it in with with. so for so many reasons because because.

Trump sucks because you're pushing a. woke agenda because you know you want. what whatever the reason is like you've. decided to become a part of a propaganda. machine and it's not journalism anymore. right you're ignoring really important. stories that are inconvenient to the. narrative that you feel like it's your. obligation to push yeah uh remember when. Trump became president and he was making. noise about not letting certain people. have credentials to get into the White.

House and there was this big hu and cry. like oh my God he's not going to let us. into the White House and my first. reaction to that was who [ __ ] cares. if you know if you're not led into the. White House you you you have an. adversarial relationship already you're. supposed to with government right if. they if they don't let you. in just report on it anyway you know. like it's not a big deal but. for the new generation of of journalists. who who've come in they imagine.

themselves because they're socially the. same people that they're reporting on. they hang out in the same circles they. go to the same parties the idea of not. being let behind the Rope line um is an. atrocity to them they they don't. understand it and they see their role as. helping explain the point of view of. power I mean it's just what we're. talking about with Brian stelter before. like like my job here is to is to kind. of sell this to to the population. whereas the old school journalists were.

not like that. like they saw their role as yeah you. know we're we're patriotic you know like. we we love our country and if it does. the right thing we'll we'll you know. we'll report that but if it [ __ ] up we. got to report that too like you know we. our job is to ask difficult questions. and if we have difficult truths we got. to report those things and so we're not. really on your side like you we're not. your friendss you know um you can hang.

out with us uh we can hang out with you. uh at a campaign stop but there's. supposed to be tension there and there's. always supposed to be tension there and. what you see now is that there's no. tension at all right like the there's. just this sort of seamless community of. people who all think the same way um you. know whether it's you know Rachel Mano. or or you know Don Lem man or who.

whoever it is and you know some Biden. Administration official like they're all. kind of on the same page they see. themselves as part of the same group. they see themselves as having the same. Mission um but the press the Press has. to have its own mission or else it's not. legitimate well I don't think they're. journalists I mean they're really just. television propagandists that's what. they are and they're they're working for. these enormous corporations and it. benefits those corporations to have a.

narrative and so you have a spokesperson. for the narrative they're not there's no. way Don Lemon is a journalist right like. there's no way Brian stelter is a. journalist they're just not right right. but they are the way like that insurance. lady on those Insurance commercials is a. stand-up comic you know what I mean like. the progressive lady yeah is she really. a comedian I guess she might make a few. people laugh like maybe you know but if. if she comes to the room with the comedy. club we're all going to look at her and. go hey what are you doing here like this.

is you know it's not like Sarah. Silverman showing up not really a. comedian that lady is a she's a paid. spokesman for the insurance company that. just happens to make you laugh right. like and what those people are is paid. spokesman for the narrative that just. happen to be saying what's happening in. the world but they're not journalists. right yeah they're they're reading. off you know a version yeah of something. um and then there there's their idea of.

Journalism is sort of digging up facts. to defend whatever that is right uh and. not looking at things objectively very. there's a very clear narrative you and. you have to push that narrative right. yeah and when it changes you don't say a. goddamn thing when the science changes. and when new information comes out that. refutes everything you've said in the. past you just shut the [ __ ] up and keep. moving right they do that and they. shouldn't do that because because again. that's an it's another thing that loses.

you uh Faith with audiences right like. and this is another thing that drives me. crazy about the this propagandistic. model of media is that it in addition to. being wrong it doesn't work right like. propaganda only it only goes so far you. you you actually need people to trust. you and trust is a complicated thing um. you know it's you have to have a. relationship with your audiences and.

audiences will not believe you if they. see you making a mistake and then and. then they see you not owning up to it. yes right which is why you know you and. I both have had had this experience of. saying something wrong and then coming. out and saying you know what I I I. screwed that up like I I did that I I. made a a really bad call about the. beginning of uh the ukra Ukraine war I. didn't believe the reports that were. coming out the they sounded wrong to me. um and I I kind of wrote a sarcastic.

column about how this is ridiculous. everyone's being so credulous about this. and then of course the invasion happened. shortly after that and I look like an. idiot um and but you got to come out and. say after that you know what um I [ __ ]. up yeah I [ __ ] up I was over my skis. on that thing and and you know if you. don't do that they never trust you they. never trust you and they shouldn't trust. you right and you should when you [ __ ]. up you should own it like it's you're.

just a human being you know and you're. you're talking about things in real time. especially when you're doing a podcast. you're literally Thinking Out Loud. publicly right and you're and it becomes. permanent record right right good luck. with that yeah no I I I don't know how. that's got to be you know incredibly. difficult to you know you're you're not. even sitting there doing what I do is. just choosing my words carefully and. typing them right like well a lot of. times I'm intoxicated. it's [ __ ] good solid amount of the.

time yeah no it's uh but that's also why. people like it because they feel like. you're really hanging out with them. having a conversation because that's. what it sounds like because it is what. it's like I mean it's like the same way. I talk to you you and I could be at. dinner right now right and we would by. probably be having the same conversation. yeah exactly and people can pick up on. that yeah you know what I mean like that. I I I always thought that was uh you. know one of the reasons that your show. is so successful is is that people don't.

detect that there's something staged. about it you know uh and but you can see. that so clearly in in every other kind. of media now um that you know it's just. I don't know I I it's a dirty business. it's a it's a it's a dirty business it's. a dirty business and it's dirty for them. too because if they could be free they. would like to I think almost everybody. would like to just be able to be. themselves and have their own opinions. and be able to express themselves and be. able to think about things openly but.

when you are working for a major news. organization and you have an enormous. paycheck every week that comes to you if. you keep this thing going you have to. keep this charade going keep this Con. going you're going to keep going you. know you're gonna you're GNA be Rachel. madow like and that's I love the fact. that the way you compared Rachel M to. Bill O'Reilly you're like it's the same. person it's the same thing it's just. one's doing it with aggressive values. and one's doing it with right-wing. values right and you were the really the.

first person like who's a liberal guy to. openly say that I'm like yes yeah that's. what it is yeah no it's it's you. identify an audience you give them stuff. they want to hear you do it over and. over again rinse repeat blah blah blah. and you know look that's a that's a a. dangerous pattern that you can fall into. when you know the business works the way. it does um um but people do it you know.

and and uh and the the converse of that. is that if you work in these. organizations and this is something that. believe it or not Nome Chomsky wrote. about a million years ago in a book. called manufacturing consent like you. see coming up in the business that when. somebody tries to Buck the system or and. tries to force through an unpopular. story or or refuses to write a story. that's not true or does anything that.

the editors don't like. um they see that that those people are. moved out of the business uh sooner. rather than later right they just sort. of end up being washed out with with. reputations for being difficult people. um you know Chris Hedges is somebody who. comes to mind right like. he's they they they kind of just squeeze. you out there's no. particular uh thing that happens and. that's a sense. signals down the the ranks of people in.

journalism that if you want to get ahead. just keep doing the [ __ ] that we want. you to do you know you don't have to be. a genius to figure out what that is uh. just keep doing it and you know well. you'll eventually rise up through the. ranks and before you know it you'll be. you'll have your own show or you you'll. be running uh a desk but you won't have. anything to say because you because. early on. you'll have made the decision to abandon. your individuality like that that's the.

key to the whole thing is that it's not. people who are making these big. decisions to sell out when they're 50. they make the decision to sell out when. they're 22 or 23 like at the very start. when they first see it and they. understand how the business works and. they start climbing that's when they. sell out so by the time they get to be. that you know older like it's that's who. they are well you see it in politics too. right like you see like people like AOC. who starts out as this like you know.

really kind of inspiring story Girl wore. shoes out campaigning just walking. around going door too and now she's. cozying up to the likes of Nancy Pelosi. and they're you know they're all in this. weird sort of group together making. decisions and and people don't like. people don't like it they don't they see. where it's going like oh if you want to. be president you have to go down this. road and you're going down that road. exactly and you're going to be that lady. that presses the button that drops the. bombs you're going to be that lady that.

like sends the [ __ ] drones out and. finds some way to justify the fact that. it kills 90% civilians you're going to. be that person because that's where that. person starts you start out idealistic. you start out this person who's very. Progressive and really wants you know to. help uh lower income families and really. wants to help inner city schools and. really wants to help all and then along. the way you get indoctrinated into the. system and you figure out how everything. works this is how you have to do it this. is how you play ball this is the bill. you have to sign this is what you have.

to get in on in order to get this we. have to do that in order to get that we. have to do this MH and next thing you. know you're a [ __ ] politician right. and you're the speaker of the house and. you're doing insider trading and making. hundreds of millions of dollars because. everybody else is doing it right right. remember when she came in and everybody. was there was a whole clan of uh sort of. senior Democratic party officials in. Congress who were giving her a hard time. because she had she was on Twitter a lot.

right and she was being successful with. Twitter and they were like you know you. have to make the choice between whether. you want to be on social media or. whether you want to be a politician and. I I actually admired her at the time I. didn't agree with her about everything. but I but I like you I thought her story. was interesting I thought that she she. had taken an alternative path to getting. elected she she she was very clever in. her her use of social media. uh you know it's better to to be good on. Twitter than it is to to you know [ __ ].

out your beliefs to some donor you know. what I'm saying um but once she got into. Congress they let you know right look if. you ever want to be a committee chair um. if you want to if you want to get in. line for these powerful positions if you. want if you want to get Appropriations. money sent to whatever District you got. to play ball right and and if if you do. then you know you very quickly start. climbing the ladder if you don't you end.

up just somebody who tends to be on the. outside and is portrayed as a nut you. know Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders or. Ron Paul right you know I mean that's. that's how how it works uh you know the. there are people who are kind of like in. Congress you know you might disagree. with what they believe but they're. honest you know and you can tell they're. honest because the leadership hates them. you know and doesn't give doesn't give. them the opportunity but you're.

absolutely right it's the same it's the. same thing you know it's it's it's this. organ. organizational uh sort of belief system. you either have to go with it or not I. just think it's it's especially it's. especially U offensive in journalism. because the whole idea of being a. journalist the whole you're not doing it. for money or power you know. if you're going into this business what. are you doing it for if you're not going.

to be trying to break cool stories yeah. uh like go into some other thing go into. Finance or right like I just I never. understood that that that part of it. doesn't make any sense to me do you. think that this understanding of this. now and because people are talking about. it and then the birth of substack and. the fact that it's become very. successful and that people are flocking. towards genuine independent journalists. whether on they're on social media like. YouTube or Twitter or substack or do you.

think that this is in many ways like. changing the way young people see the. possibilities because I think young. people looking at the two options like. one you can kind of be a hero and or two. you can kind of be a [ __ ] right you. know there's a there's a lot of [ __ ]. they don't seem happy these [ __ ] seem. very upset at everything and they're. always pulling their [ __ ] hair out. and they're probably on anti-depressant. and then you have these people that are. like breaking stories and it's like oh.

my God journalism is alive it's just. alive in like like you know when people. travel with a fire and they have like. Embers and. they're they're blowing on them and they. get them to the next camp and then they. could start a fire with it that's. journalism right now it's not this. raging bonfire that everybody can go get. warmed you know the information will. warm everyone no it's like these people. have like small wooden vessels filled. with Embers and they're blowing on them. as they run through the woods and people.

are Fanning them to try to keep them. alive but I think for young people that. are considering paths like what to do. with their future they don't they don't. want to be contained they want to be. free and because of social media and. because of the fact that like any kid. can just start a YouTube page and just. start talking about things exactly and. because of that kind of the ability to. to now do your own. show becoming independent is becoming. not just more plausible but more. attractive. absolutely and I think you know the.

younger people have less tolerance for. phoniness or at least historically they. did yeah it's been a little weird lately. um haven't always been sure of that. lately uh but um but you know they yeah. the people who are going to go into. journalism when they're 18 or. 19 uh once upon a time they all wanted. to be Woodward and Bernstein or or Sai. hir or Hunter Thompson or whoever.

whoever it was they just wanted to be a. rule breaker somebody who told the truth. um and consequences be damned and. because that's what it's about it's. about it's about being free and speaking. your mind right like you what is it. William Blake said you could always be. ready to speak your mind and a Bas man. will avoid you right like that's that's. what journalism is like you you derive. power from your willingness to say the. unpopular true thing right and and.

that's an attractive idealistic thing. for a young person but if they see that. that path closed they're they're not. going to go into I. mean why why would you go into um. journalism and try to work at the New. Yorker or um or MSNBC if you know you're. never going to get to do that basically. you know so but you but you can you can. create your own show with almost no.

overhead and do the same thing and and. and have have a much bigger impact and. you'll have a bigger audience even much. bigger right much bigger yeah yeah I. mean as you know as you very well know. right I mean uh. that's and these these corporate uh. media. companies have been living for a long. time on their name and on the memory of. The Prestige that their names inspired.

but if people if they actually had to. sell how much reach they had now um they. they they wouldn't have much to talk. about right like the their audiences are. shrinking um their influence is very. very small uh and you know the the the. the the jobs that they're offering are. just less and less uh um exciting for. for young people we were talking about. CNN like how does CNN even keep the.

lights on they have an enormous building. in Atlanta giant CNN sign on the front. of it and they get terrible ratings oh. yeah absolutely and they have so many. people working there you have a whole. giant building filled with people and. then your product no one wants it like. no like people are in like just. accidentally watching it flipping. through the channels they're watching it. like there's nothing compelling that. they have to offer yet they are in the. business of selling compelling.

information you're literally the most. compelling thing because the news is. supposed to be one of the most. compelling things everybody. traditionally would come home and watch. the Evening News because you need to. know what the [ __ ] is going on in the. world but now because of social media. and because of just websites and phones. and just news off your apps the the. different apps that people use Google. apps no one cares anymore so it's you're. just howling into the wind it's it's. something it's background you see at an.

airport maybe yeah right right but yeah. you're right they have they have a huge. building in New York too um you know the. time War Center and bizarre um and they. and they're not even in the top 20 I. think of cable news shows anymore right. so uh and and then look what happened. with CNN plus I mean you know they they. went and they hired um Chris Wallace and. they they were going to launch this big. Subscription Service CNN plus where I.

guess the idea was they were going to. get people to pay to watch the same. stuff they were already refusing to. watch for free uh then they had to. cancel the service after three weeks. they spent hundreds of millions of. dollars on it I mean how could they not. have not have not seen that how could. they think that people wanted to pay for. something that they don't like for. free yeah I I don't know I don't know. and but the the what's clear is that. they don't they don't have any.

conception of where the way out is for. them right well they're like Blockbuster. Video there's no way out well I think I. think there would be a way out if they. if they started actually doing their. jobs but they just don't know what that. is anymore well has the new guy said. they want to switch away from opinion. editorial type news stories and and. public people to people that just. disseminate objective views of. information just like like this is. what's happening in the world this is. what's going on this is the crash that.

happened this is the that they they have. they have said that is it too late the. problem is like people now have. Associated CNN with [ __ ] propaganda. right that you they treat you like. you're dumb they think you're stupid. they think you know that you could just. tell people that someone's taking horse. Dormer and you could just repeat it over. and over again and people believe it I. mean the amount of damage that they did. to their own reputation saying things. like that it's so because most people. would look at that and go is he really. doing that and then some people would go.

wa that's not even true like wait a. minute CNN says this what else are they. lying about right what what what what. about International stories what about. financial stories what about things that. have to do with crypto or what what. narratives are they spitting out that. are just [ __ ] right right and. there's a lot of them you know um you. mean remember when the the bountygate. story came out and. Bounty gate what's Bounty gate Bounty. gate was this weird story that came out.

I think it was in. 2020 when basically they they were. reporting that Russians were paying. Bounties in Afghanistan to kill American. soldiers yeah and it turned out to be. like you know basically one theory that. that somebody within the intelligence. Community was was. positing the the Army itself came out a. couple months later and said yeah we. don't really have evidence for this and.

then you know a year later they came out. even more strongly and said you know we. don't you know we don't we can't back. that up well here's a crazier one the. Russia gate oh well yeah that's the. craziest on AB the fact that they pushed. that for three years and they've never. come out and said we were misinformed. that is not the case there really wasn't. this crazy collusion between Russia and. Donald Trump and fact there was some. information that seems to point to that.

Hillary Clinton had involvement with. Russia too and that they've kind of all. had involvement with Russia and this. this wasn't some Grand conspiracy to. elect a Russian puppet as the President. of the United States sorry yeah it was. it was. a three and a half year sort of mass. hysteria experiment right and I mean. this is one of the things uh it's one of. the reasons I I got kind of quietly. moved out of mainstream journalism right.

I didn't have particular uh problem at. Rolling Stone but you know I early on in. in the Trump years I I said there's. something wrong with the story I I I. think there are elements of it that AR. aren't provable I don't think we should. be running this stuff you know and uh. then uh before I knew it I was working. independently but anyway uh at the. Twitter files we've we're finding stuff. that now tells you absolutely like what.

actually the truth was during that time. like for instance one of the big rushia. gate stories uh was from early 2018 when. Devon Nunes remember the he was the. Republican Congressman he was the head. of the house intelligence committee at. the time he wrote a memo uh basically. saying we think they they faked fisa. applications we think the FBI used. the steel dossier to try to get. surveillance Authority against some.

Trump people like Carter page and we. think they lied and cheated to do that. and so he submitted this classified memo. and Not only was he denounced everywhere. as a liar and wrong and all that but. there was this big story that was all. over the place that uh a. hashtag hash relase the memo had been. Amplified by Russian. Bots uh you probably don't remember this.

but but this story was everywhere in. January and February of. 2018 this idea that that uh released the. memo was basically a Russian operation. and that noones was uh benefiting from. it well I'm reading the Twitter files I. was looking for something else entirely. uh and then suddenly we come across a. string of emails internally at Twitter. where TW where the Twitter officials are. saying you know we're not finding any.

Russians at all behind this hashtag and. we told uh the members of Congress who. asked about this um that there are no. Russians involved in this uh. because Diane Feinstein uh Richard. Blumenthal of Connecticut they all came. out with this accusation about about it. being linked to Russia um we told them. that there's nothing there and they they. went and they did it anyway you know and. so there are lots of stories like that. now that are kind of falling apart right.

and and most people I think don't even. know that the Russia collusion thing was. [ __ ] I think the general public that. heard that Russia gate narrative the the. people that haven't looked into it past. what they've seen on television probably. still believe there's some sort of. collusion yeah uh because there's never. been a reckoning for it right you know I. mean I after the wmd thing uh. which you know went on for a. surprisingly long time considering how.

little evidence there ever was for that. uh and and considering that there were. lots of journalists at the time who. would have liked to have proved Bush. wrong about that um it still took years. and years and years for the business to. admit that they they screwed that up. they blamed it almost entirely on one. person Judy Miller from New York Times. the yeah other people who who got that. story just as wrong like Jeffrey.

Goldberg he's now the editor of Atlantic. magazine like there are all kinds of. people who totally screwed that story up. and got promoted um and so there but. there was there was at least a little. bit of reflection about getting a big. story wrong like you that's such a big. story right that's such a big story yeah. the fact that there really were no. weapons of mass destruction and they we. we really did start a war for nothing. that really did Kill somewhere in the. neighborhood of a million innocent.

people right it's over a fake news story. yeah over a fake news story I mean that. there should be there should be sorrow. you know what I mean within news. organizations about a mistake of that. magnitude and the fact there's no. repercussions and the people were. promoted that that promoted that very. same story that led to that that led to. the the the public support of it of the. war yeah not only only did we not only. did we promote the people who got that.

story wrong uh you know except in that. one case with Judy Miller Who had who. who was sort of. villainized uh you know but people were. fired who who were who were questioning. it like Phil donu had a show a very. highly rated show on MSNBC at the time. he lost his job Jesse what did he say he. was just very critical of the war effort. he didn't believe the whole thing and. and he he thought and that's why lost. his show yeah they they they took him. off the air Jesse Ventura will will tell.

you the story he he he he's currently he. lives in a in a compound in Mexico Casa. MSNBC he calls it uh because they hired. him thinking that because he was a. former Navy SEAL he was going to be pro. war when they found out on the phone um. that he didn't feel that way that he was. very skeptical of the whole thing they. basically bought out his contract they. just paid him the balance and said. thanks but no thanks and uh you know you.

we're not going to want that show of. yours uh so he was right um but he you. know instead of going on the air he he. he got a mansion in Mexico you know like. so so you know the the the business has. a history of um of doing stuff like this. but at least in the wmd episode they had. they had the decency to. admit now you know like a decade later. we screwed that up like it has the it.

has the reputation of being a media. mistake they haven't done that yet with. the Russia stuff well the wmd thing. though there's no repercussions because. over time everybody had kind of either. forgotten about it or been overwhelmed. by news stories and when the wmd came. out when when that sort of thing came. out at the beginning of the war you're. also dealing with a very different. internet and the News cycle was is. Extreme and dynamic like nowadays things. that happen like no one gives a [ __ ].

that Epstein was murdered and that the. cameras were shut off and that there's. no list of all the people that went to. the island that's just gone there's too. much new stuff to come that it's it's in. front of your eyes that you have to pay. attention to right that's the new cycle. we we we do need a little a few more. answers on that one I think I think yeah. yeah I mean it's wild so that's the news. cycle of today that is just overwhelming. and then just keeps coming forward and. you can't stop it you know when you were. working at Rolling Stone did you did you.

interact with Yan winner a lot yeah did. you see my conversation that I had with. him yeah yeah absolutely did you do you. think that was kind of sad in a way very. very young yeah I mean look Yan and I. Yan was always good to me you know. um he didn't agree with my politics he. didn't agree with my approach to the job. uh a lot um and I know that my stories. got him in a in a lot of trouble. socially uh so that that came out from.

time to time but he you know he never he. never went to the step of firing me you. know and and he let me do the stories. that I wanted to do for the most part um. but you know I I I think I think as you. as you found out. like he somewhere along the line he he. uh you know he he lost interest in being. you know part of a a real actual. journalistic Venture right you know I. think he has a hard time.

concentrating on the the nuances of all. these different things and balancing out. like when we what he was talking about. the government regulating the internet. that was the most shocking like I was a. fan of the guy because I was a fan I've. always been a fan of Rolling Stone and. I'm a giant fan of Hunter S Thompson and. I knew he and Hunter had this very close. relationship and I I wanted to bring it. was complicated but yeah I'm sure but I. wanted to talk to him just about that I. mean and and that I enjoyed that but.

then when we it's to to say you were a. fan of that guy and now you're saying. you're talking to me about the. government censoring the internet and. when I was like you're talking about the. same people that gave us bad information. about weapons of mass destruction that. led to a war and then he's sort of. balancing that out like no those were. politicians like that's the government. right talking about the government yeah. like like to see him try to wrestle with.

that in his head and to realize he had. never wrestled with it before yeah. that's what was [ __ ] it's like I mean. is he just tired is he just older or is. he just like completely insulated in. those liberal cocktail parties where you. know you have to wear a mask and you. have to say this and if you don't say. that you'll be ostracized from the. social group like what what kind of. narrow Pro bandwidth are you operating. on like that you could just say that.

yeah I mean again I I feel bad because. you know I'm living in a home probably. that was paid for by Yan wner and and. and all that stuff and and and he was. like I said he he was always good to me. personally even though we had some. pretty intense disagreements and and. arguments and there was a lot of yelling. that went on but um but I think think. you know what. happens um is that yeah you do you do.

end up in a bubble uh and even even. people um who are in who who spent their. whole lives in the journalism business. and not not just in the journalism. business but rock and roll journalism. right like you're you're supposed to be. kind of on the edge right um and Hunter. Thompson was was completely out of. control right like his his his writing. was wild free that was what was. beautiful about it right and and it took. a lot of guts to publish that right and.

and to and to send somebody like that on. the campaign Trail was a revolutionary. idea at the at the time you know uh but. uh but you know he. Yan and this came out uh in 2016 because. he endorsed Hillary uh in 2016 and I I. asked permission to write a counter to. that and endorse. Bernie um and but his whole reasoning.

was when we were young and we were and. we were supporting McGovern we were. wrong because McGovern um was a bad. candidate and Nixon got elected we. needed to we needed to support somebody. else who had a better chance of winning. and so his whole idea of you know. youthful idealism is nice and all but. but uh it's not pragmatic right and this. was the place that he had ended up in. and that leads you to other things like.

you know internet internet censorship um. you know one of the reasons that uh one. of the first signs that I knew that I. wasn't going to have a future at the. magazine is when he told me I um just. flat out shouldn't touch the Russia. story anymore uh this this was in the. first year of of. the uh of that Scandal and I had written. a bunch of columns saying you know what. I don't think this is true um and. because he perceived that I think as.

helping Donald Trump you know he he. didn't want me writing about him I. ignored him but you know uh it you do. get in the bubble and you know I think. there's also being the boss well being. the guy yeah and you you're insulated in. the fact that no one wants to challenge. you and yeah yeah and and. look most of the people who worked at. Rolling Stone had kind of a a LoveHate.

relationship with Yan like he he he. could be tempestuous and and he could be. uh he would go into to fits of anger and. and things would happen uh but at the. other hand on the other hand like there. was a lot of great journalism that came. out of Rolling Stone and he had. um you know he he had a really sort of. brilliant sense of. how magazines worked and and what what. audiences would like in magazines and.

that that mechanism in his head. functioned extremely well for like 40 40. years or so yeah and so you know people. respected him as a leader on that front. um but you know over time the magazine. You Know It uh it started. to to become I don't know it it it LO it. lost it sense of. purpose uh and yeah it became it became.

something other than what it had it had. been right it was a symbol of. rebelliousness once and now now it's the. opposite it is the opposite yeah it's it. was sad to me to have that conversation. with him like part of it I really. enjoyed the the talking about Hunter and. talking about the early days of the. magazine and what it was like to take a. chance on on a magazine like that in. this countercultural environment that. they found themselves in. but then you know seeing and you just. like sometimes people just get tired man.

they just get tired and they get old and. they kind of like give in a narratives. and then they don't they don't want to. explore the the subtle Nuance of each. individual topic because sometimes those. are uncomfortable and you have to. wrestle with those thoughts and you know. sometimes people would rather just. medicate themselves and go to sleep yeah. and also you can you can also get used. to not having not answering difficult. questions which also came through in. that interview I think right cuz you're. the boss you're the boss right like. you're you're used to being asked you. know throwing a whole bunch of softballs.

and and you know if you're if you're not. in that place you know um yeah that can. be difficult too I have a good friend. who used to be an executive at Google. and we were at a party and it was uh me. and my wife and this lady who was one of. the big wigs at YouTube and so uh she. sits down with us and we're talking and. she's you know asking me about you know. podcast and this and that and we're. having this conversation and I say what. how does YouTube decide like what gets.

marked as bad or you know I go because. there's a conversation between Sam. Harris and Douglas Murray two public. intellectuals that someone put on their. YouTube playlist like they didn't even. make this conversation they just like. this is something that I have on my. channel on my playlist and it got they. got flagged for. that and. she yeah they got they got a strike. against their channel for that and I. said it to her I go why would that be.

and she goes because it was hate speech. and so I go how did you just say that I. go how did you just say it was H spe I. go do you know the content of the. conversation you're talking about two. public intellectuals right and you you. just said it was hat and my wife is like. squeezing my knee cuz she she she sees. I'm getting red you know I'm like you. just said it was hate speech do you. understand what they talked about do you. know what they talked about why' you. just say that but she just like it's. it's hate what they said was hate speech. she just like this arrogance because she.

was in this position of power where she. could say that's hate speech that's not. hate speech right and this is quite a. while ago this like 2015 16 oh wow so. it's early yeah early wow what her. saying because it was hate speech like. this look in my that's what it is do you. remember that commercial uh where it's. like during the drug war the height of. the drug war propaganda and during the. the he drug thing no no no the one where. there's a man and a younger man and. they're eating dinner and he's saying if.

you buy drugs you support terrorism and. he's like eating his food at a. steakhouse he goes what do you mean it. supports terrorism it just does it just. does you're supporting terrorism it's. like this this noons guy and then this. young goofy guy like what are you saying. I just like to smoke pot if you buy. drugs you support terrorism have you. ever seen that commercial no I I I don't. remember it play play from the beginning. play from the beginning cuz this is It's. a ploy what this drug money funds Terror.

it's a. ploy a. manipulation Ploy Drug Money funds. Terror I mean why should I believe that. because it's a fact a fact F fact so. you're saying that I I should believe it. because it's true that's that's your. argument it is. true says who. says who [ __ ] and that's that's. me and that lady from YouTube cuz it's.

hate speech cuz it is hate speech cuz. it's true why eating salad what the [ __ ]. probably eating too right yeah she was. eating yeah we were. eating I was so red I was so hot I was. like what and this is before I was even. getting censored on YouTube this was in. the early days like back you know no one. gave a [ __ ] about what I was doing right. and sitting there this woman was telling. this interesting conversation about uh. the the the change this was like when he. was doing the strange death of Europe.

that book Douglas Murray's book uhhuh. uhhuh yep and you know they were having. this conversation about what happens. when religious ideology starts to change. the environment of these European. cities but this that [ __ ] attitude. that people have like because it's true. because it is true like [ __ ] says who. like you can't just say that right like. you tell me how you tell me how you know. we're going to talk forever [ __ ]. we're going to sit here forever I'm not. I'm not going to be done with this. dinner I'm going to put my Fork down you. tell me you [ __ ] tell me how's how is.

it funding drugs is funding terrorism. how is that that [ __ ] conversation. between Douglas Murray and Sam Harris. how's that hate speech right but they. they they're they're used to not having. to go past that first part of the. conversation so exactly you know like. that's if my wife wasn't squeezing my. knee she was like squeezing my knee. under the table she's like she's like oh. Jesus I know what's happening here right. right no but the people and and that was.

another strange thing about um my. experience at Rolling Stone like I. early uh I guess it was 2017 2018 when. they when they first started to really. aggressively police the internet um I. did a story uh about how they wiped out. a bunch of. accounts um under the guys this is a. this is after Alex Jones thing but the. Facebook just sort of Zapped a whole. bunch of accounts and uh some of them.

were just sort of ordinary hardworking. people who had built up these. Independent Media channels and um the. company just sent them notices you are. coordinated inauthentic activity and. your page is down this is after they'. spent tens of thousands of dollars on. Facebook ads to B to build up their. their um you know their pages and. everything um they they weren't Bots. they were real people and and uh not. only could I not convince other people. in the business that it it it was a.

significant story that these companies. were now doing this but within Rolling. Stone um you know the the the story the. headline had to be Rea. refashioned uh if you look at it now the. story is called um who will F who will. fix Facebook because they wanted to. imply that the problem was that Facebook. was was out of control uh and needed to. be policed more right uh and sort of my.

my my headline that I that I submitted. was very different it was something like. you know censorship on Facebook is out. of control or whatever it is right um. but they the this belief that the. censorship is a good thing that we need. more of it I I I just think it became an. upper class kind of New York. Washington uh just. cocktail party uh belief right I mean it.

was something you started to hear from. people right right around the time that. Trump got elected oh we just need more. of that you know we have to do something. to reck to reckon with all those people. or whatever it is and they haven't let. go of it I don't think have they I don't. know have they yeah I don't I think. they're still in that place for the most. part you know uh you know that the this. move toward that world economic Forum. version of of a a more regulated.

internet um I I think we're only in the. beginning stages of that I think they're. they're going to make many. steps uh you know that are going to be. much more significant in the future uh. to try to prevent you know things like. your show from breaking out right like. they're they're they're not going to. want that in the future well how does. the world economic forum actually wield. influence like what what works there how. does it work you know one thing we know.

about this this year's event is we know. two things one that hookers are going. there and droves there was an article. about the increase in the uh population. of. prostitutes which makes sense yeah it. makes the other yeah when the boys are. away and then the other uh thing was. that CLA Schwab and George Soros decided. to op out this year hm which is. interesting that is interesting maybe. it's getting too hot because it used to. be a thing that really didn't get much. public attention they could go there and.

they could all have these meetings and. decide the fate of the world and try to. sort of move the world in general. directions and then there was also uh. Michael shellenberger released a bunch. of stuff this week showing that they lie. about things that they've said that have. become very problematic one of them was. you will own nothing you'll be happy and. they said no that was uh that was all uh. just internet conspiracy theories it's. not true but it is true and then there. was websites they had a whole.

advertising campaign based on this they. did that they said that they absolutely. put it up they really did or I think. another one was uh eating bugs right yes. yes yeah yeah exactly well I don't have. a problem with eating bugs um I I do. have a problem with people trying to say. what is good is not good for the world. when I know that if you say it is good. it's going to benefit enormous groups.

economically and it's going to lock. other people out and I think that's what. they're doing with things like. plant-based meat when all those people. were saying plant-based meat is the. future like the [ __ ] it is it's really. bad for you it's really bad for you not. only that it it it it's monocrop. agriculture which is terrible for the. land it's terrible for living creatures. this idea if if one life equals one life. you're way better off buying cows and. eating cows than you are buying corn. because in order to grow a stock of corn.

a lot of [ __ ] has to die and if you're. using monocrop Agriculture and using. industrialized farming methods and. you're controlling enormous swas of land. with only one crop that is totally. unnatural doesn't exist anywhere in. nature and in order to do that you have. to poison everything else you have to. kill all the animals you have to poison. the you have to strip the top soil you. have to use industrialized fertilizer. you can't grow things that way normally. that's why there's only using these. industrialized methods there's only like.

60 more. like more um crop circles that they can. do or crop Cycles they can do like. there's only a certain amount of top. soil that's even left that's viable to. grow food on because they don't use. regenerative agriculture anymore huh the. people that like white oak pastures and. polyface Farms like Joel salatin and. Will Harris these like grizzled old. farmers who use these regenerative.

methods that are very like almost. Boutique they're they're very rare now. but they're more popular than ever. because people are aware of them but. most of the stuff that you buy is using. industrialized fertilizer what these. people are doing is they're they're. letting cows graze they take the manure. they use the manure as fertilizer. chickens roam the land chickens peck the. bugs and eat the stuff. pigs Roam and then they cycle where. these animals are so what they're. essentially doing is they're recreating.

nature in a contained environment and. that is actually carbon neutral it. actually sequesters carbon in the soil. in a lot of cases but if you want to buy. plant-based food and plant-based meat. you're not getting that right you're. you're supporting monocrop agriculture. industrialized farming and you're. supporting very unhealthy food yeah and. and and the idea of a small group of. people who meet in a ski resort town and.

in Switzerland making the decisions. about this for people all the all all. around the world and they're doing it on. private jobs he was there and I think. CLA or he was never supposed to be there. Bill Gates and Claw Schwab was there it. says Bill GL post falsely claimed Bill. Gates withdrew from Davos Forum yeah but. CLA Schwab did withdraw I think he was. there though well he said he couldn't. make it he there was a public release. and George Soros also said he couldn't. make it okay I mean you could Google.

that I thought I was looking I thought I. saw a video of him talking well he's. definitely talked at it before it could. be from another time CLA Schwab MH I. think there was a thing that said that. due to a scheduling conflict he couldn't. make it I thought so too I remember. reading that too but now I'm Googling it. and it's like it doesn't come up like. I'm looking for cl did clab believe. Davos is he not there and you know I. don't get a report did you didn't did. you Google did CLA Schwab opt out of the. world economic Forum this year CL Schwab.

what like what who organized this thing. that's what's super bizarre like that. these billionaires and then Justin. Trudeau and then they all fly there this. is what happens when I Google did CLA. Schwab up he spelled Schwab wrong but. it's okay uh opt out is that I spell his. name it doesn't it gives you the right. answer knows what you're looking for did. CL Schwab. uh what does it. say it just kind it doesn't say that. he's not there it just sort of seems.

like he's. there I don't know it was confusing. that's why I was trying to just. clarifying okay I mean it's just part of. this whole infrastructure with aspet. Institute World economic Forum like what. kind of influence do they actually have. like and how do they you know when we. have young global leaders when he talks. about like Trudeau being one of are. young global leaders and this is what. they do they they they get their young. global leaders that are indoctrinated.

into the world economic forms ideas and. they Implement them in politics yeah. it's like it's the same thing as Justin. Timberlake being a musketeer and then. later on he gets to have a real career. in entertainment I mean it's right it's. it's the same it's the same exact. concept um you know they're they're they. bring people along there's there's a. feeder system for how people become. powerful politicians we've seen how it. works you can you know if you want to be. a financial regulatory official you you.

run a desk at Goldman Sachs for a few. years and next thing you know you'll be. running the World Bank in um in Canada. or running running the uh you know it'll. be the chief Economist of the World Bank. or you'll be the chief Economist of the. ECB or the Bank of Canada or you know. whatever it is there's just just all. these places where where politicians. come from you know you you do a tour in. the in the military maybe even in the.

CIA maybe you work for a consulting firm. like McKenzie you do a little time you. know working for um you know this or. that politician as a as an aid and then. you know they raise some money for you. to become a candidate in Congress and. next thing you know you're running for. president like like you. know they know how they do these things. right like the the the politicians don't. come from too many places right. especially in in America we've we've got.

we've got a pretty you know stable. system of how that works but the the. global thing freaks me out a little bit. like this this idea that they're that. leaders from all over these countries. are getting together and setting an. agenda that may be completely contrary. to what people in the individual Nation. might want um yeah that's upsetting like.

that that seems totally an. anti-democratic and and disturbing and. yeah I I don't know I have a lot of. fears about that so yeah as do I and. this is a a fairly new thing in terms of. like the the public Zeitgeist like. people didn't know about the world. economic Forum six seven years ago at. least most people didn't they didn't. hear about it they didn't hear about CLA. Schwab and you know you own nothing and. you'll be happy when you when you hear. them say stuff like that and hear them. talk about young global leaders you're. like what is happening here like you.

seem like a bad guy in a science fiction. movie like he he wears that crazy outfit. that I show you the picture we have in. the bathroom yeah like could you be any. more obvious that you're [ __ ]. insane like you're an insane. megalomaniacal dictator type character. who wants to run the world and you're. literally dressing like a Star Wars. character yeah there's there's got to be. some weird sexual fetishism thing going. on there pull that picture up Jamie you. know that nutty picture that picture is.

so w every time I go to take a leak I. look at that picture that's why it's. there cuz I'm like what kind of freak. [ __ ] is that guy into when no one's. around because if you're dressing like. that publicly and you're telling people. they're going to eat bugs and that. you're going to own nothing and. everyone's and and you and then when. people catch you on it you go those are. conspiracy theories we have nothing to. say to those things like look at that. [ __ ] outfit he looks like a space. Druid that's awesome it's amazing yeah. the fact that he chose to leave his. house dressed like that like yes I will.

just the peons the all the public needs. to know that VI in control look at this. got like that weird star on the right. one and whatever the [ __ ] it says on the. left one right yeah yeah but on his on. his vest like what is that thing on his. vest is that the same thing what is that. symbol whatever son it looks like a sun. right but what does it stand for I could. look that up there also a goat with a. cross oh a [ __ ] goat with a cross in.

his head a bull I think whatever it is a. bull Jesus Christ you [ __ ] psychos. science Ingenuity truth I think is what. that says I almost wish that I didn't. have this podcast and I could just go. and hang out with those people but. doesn't that look like the outfit wow. look at that I don't think that's him no. well how about the great reset he wrote. a book called The Great reset and then. they denied that the Great reset is a. thing they're working towards like bro. you wrote a book right yeah you wrote a. book it's called the Great reset this is.

not like the [ __ ] like the steel. dossier like Trump didn't write a book. called the steel dossier and say I never. peed on anybody like this is what you're. doing right right or or or isn't new. world order another term that they right. you you see it on the background of uh. you know some some of their events but. how do they have influence though like. other than like are they just financing. politicians and so they have this. meeting where they get together and they. say oh you know this is what we want you. to do and it's just understood that if.

you follow those people and you do that. you'll have some sort of a career like. almost like a workshopping thing like a. conference for people to get together. that are [ __ ] aluminum siding. salesmen and like they find out what's. the new tech and what's the the latest. stuff and sales techniques I assume it. just works the same way that think tanks. work in the United States right like if. you if you you uh here it goes it was. founded on the 24th of January 1971 by.

German engineer and Economist CL swap. Jesus he founded that in 71 the. foundation with is which is mostly. funded by its 1,000 member companies. typically Global Enterprises with more. than5 billion US dollar in turnover as. well as public subsidies I like to find. out what those subsidies are views its. own mission as improving the state of. the World by engaging business political. academic and other leaders of society to. shape Global Regional and Industry.

agendas boy does that sound. gross. yeah the WF is mostly known for its. annual meetings at the end of January in. Davos a mountain resort in the Eastern. Alps of Switzerland the meeting brings. together some 3,000 paying members and. selected participants among whom are. Investors Business Leaders political. leaders economists uh. uh celebrities and journalists up to. five days to discuss Global issues. across 500 sessions there was some guy.

who uh was trying to interview someone. from. MSNBC and you know he was like some. independent journalist guy and he was. trying to. talk and the the guy from MSNBC said. said something along the lines of. someone could should knock that [ __ ]. guy out like. threatened this guy for asking him. question about speaking truth to power. okay okay thank you where are you from. Rebel news yes but what what is your.

interest what is your what do mean I'm. covering the news I'm doing what your. bosses are supposed to be doing okay why. did he get so upset what's he so scared. about no I'm not scared I'm no no you no. you not you your boss he seemed really. scared he ran in there and called you. out no it's just we have to know who's. out here my name's A Min I work for. Rebel news yes we're reporters we do. what C MBC is supposed to be doing and. he seemed a bit upset that we were. asking some questions in the public area.

outside yeah if you're here it's public. area there's no worries that's private. area from here on so you're doing fine. we sure very nice day you. too so like I think it keeps going cuz. this is where they threaten to punch him. out yeah you can't I can't ask you no. you can't I'm rather you didn't put a. camera in my face thank you really but. you're here as an invited guest and. you're an editor for CNBC don't you. think that's a bit of a conflict of.

interest I'd like you to go away I. haven't agreed to an interview if you're. doorstepping me like go away serious. don't touch them away for me you're. meant to speak to you're meant to be. speaking truth to power are you here. just to take your marching orders is. that what you're here. for do you want to go away not really. I'm here to do what you should be. doing yeah please take this out of my. mouth I'm going to have to sced up for. security all right I like how he's got. the the cigarette yeah so he goes inside.

keep it going cuz he goes inside and. that's when he says someone should knock. this [ __ ] guy I want to hear what he. actually says I'm paraphrasing and now. he's calling security to escort me off. the premisis. well what's the problem y my problem. You' been very rude to me this morning. you haven't asked me anything so I'd. like you to take the camera off me I've. literally asked you questions politely.

which should be your job I just LED you. [ __ ] piece of [ __ ] your job sir I'm. doing your job I'm just not getting paid. for by Cloud swab you were inside as he. walked in a bit upset what did you hear. him say I heard him say I'm going to. paraphrase it cuz I have the exact thing. but he came in sounding quite angry. saying I'm going to punch him out. paraphrasing there might he's knocked. out punched out but you know he wanted. to hit. you yeah and there's there's an actual. recording of it okay but whatever we get.

it we get it is that same guy the guy. that got set up by Jim Jeffrey show back. in the day the guy that he was talking. to the C AI. Yemen I'll check please check I think he. is I think he's a guy that got set up. and they took a bunch of his words out. of context and tried to pretend that he. was saying something horrible and he. wasn't and he had a recording of the. entire event cuz he recorded on his cell. phone knowing that they're going to set. him up if it's not that guy we have to.

edit this part. out activist exposes Jim jeffy's. deceptive tactics yeah that's him yeah. yeah I actually have a story that's very. similar to that one of the things I. wanted to talk about go ahead no that. was Auto playay so the first time I got. sent um to cover the presidential. campaign. uh for Rolling Stone I was it was in. 2004 and um I was on the I was on the.

plane with Carrie you know and it's. teaming with journalists obviously and. there was a story that came out probably. everybody's forgotten it but there was a. there was a story that turned out to be. fake that Matt drudge put out about well. maybe it wasn't fake but it was at least. not proved um that Carrie had a secret. mistress in Africa right right and if. you look this up you'll you'll you'll. you'll find stories about it that were. out there um and Carrie came out uh in.

the morning and all the journalists were. a were sort of peppering him with. questions about the. mistress and you know I don't care about. John KY but I I thought it was odd that. they went straight from reading. something that where there's no evidence. to posing this question and having it on. camera right so I. asked some of the. journalists um and I was kind of the new.

kid I. said uh what why were you doing that. like like on the basis of what were you. asking that question and the minute they. perceived that I was actually trying to. ask another journalist a question like. for a story this one guy he sort of. steps in front of all the other ones and. he says dude this is a [ __ ] no fly. zone right like in other. words we don't cover each other in here.

right like that's that that was the. message and like from that point forward. I was I was always in the back of the. plane like with the tech people whenever. whenever I uh covered presidential. politics because the Press does not like. it it even though it is crucial a. crucial part of the story it it denies. that it has that role and it insists on. not being covered and you can see how. nervous these these guys get when a. camera is on them like oh my you're. putting a camera on me like well when I.

Google John Cary secret mistress Africa. it brings me down a John Edwards. hole which is [ __ ] weird that is but. uh when you put it into Bing I get a. story so Microsoft won't censor. it but Google will there was more. there's a couple stories about that like. John krey stuff comes up when I look at. that different John krey stuff yeah. where it doesn't redirect to John. Edwards you know so that's even weird.

that's even weirder right like like. you're getting different versions of. reality based on what search engine. you're well you most certainly do if you. use duck ducko you just get what's out. there and when you use Google you get. really like I noticed that during the. pandemic there was a doctor that had a. heart attack immediately after taking. his second shot of I think it was Mna. and so I was like what is that about and. this was like very early on and uh I. Googled it I could not find it I could. not find the story and then I went to.

duck ducko immediately and I was like. whoa this is wild like they're hiding. this story right so they would hide. certain stories because they thought. that they would increase vaccine. hesitancy H yeah yeah see that's it's. terrifying right you're holding you're. carrying water for the pharmaceutical. companies which is really spooky cuz I. mean you wen't talk about the people. that have had like the biggest criminal. fines in US history and they've been. lying about the adverse effects of their.

medications forever right withholding. information in order to gain a profit. and then you're hiding stories right. that may implicate them in someone's. death it might it might be somehow or. another involved like we don't know and. you're just hiding it why are you hiding. that story I Googled Florida doctor. adverse reaction vaccine heart attack. instantly on B on uh Duck Duck Go I get. all these articles about this guy that. died couldn't find [ __ ] on Google wow.

well I mean. look they've gotten very sophisticated. in their ability to suppress certain. things you know I mean and and you know. you this this is where where you see the. influence of you know how money works. with the content suppression thing I. mean like you take something like the. digital forensic research lab for the. Atlantic Council it's it's one of the. things that they that these uh platforms.

use to decide whether or not a news. story is true but if you look if you. look at where they get their money you. know it's the German Marshall fund which. is a mishmash of um sort of sovereign. wealth funds and you. know you know Fortune 500 companies so. it's it's. you're paying for the fact check. essentially right like like that's how. yeah all all these sites that are.

allegedly deciding what's true and. what's not uh they're all influenced you. know um and that that's that's another. thing that drives me crazy is this this. persistent belief that people have that. you can objectively decide what is true. and what what is not somehow um it. doesn't work like that the way the the. way it the only way it works is you. either over time you come to to trust. some stations over others because they.

have a record of being more right about. something like that's that's the only. way it works yeah independent fact. Checkers when the independent fact. Checkers review certain things and you. find them on social media where they. have like little little warning or. little notification afterwards and you. actually go down the rabbit hole and say. well what have you done like what is the. a lot of it is subjective they've just. decided that this is not true or side. this is partially true or it's missing. context that's their favorite thing yeah. missing context is context right like oh.

it's true but here are eight reasons why. you should think otherwise like you know. like that's not our job you know and by. the way reporting by itself is. factchecking that's the whole point of. it like we don't we don't need a. separate thing called factchecking yeah. right to go with report I don't I that. that whole phenomenon drives me nuts it. is it's weird though that we don't have. I mean it used to be Snopes and a lot of. people used to go to Snopes but then I. read about Snopes and you you find out.

all the the wacky [ __ ] about the people. that are involved in Snopes and that the. the guy who's the head of it is like. very heavily left leaning and then he. married a prostitute and like all kinds. of wild [ __ ] it's like snopes is not. like some like Rock Solid independent. purely objective organization that is. dedicated to the dissemination of. truthful information like no they. they're like [ __ ] heavily left. leaning right right and in subjective. circumstances when it's subjective. whether or not this is real or not real.

or lacking context or whatever like they. can give they can paint a narrative that. at least is biased I mean every Outlet. is subjective but that's why you have to. allow them all yes you know what I mean. like like we're we're growing UPS we. should let's read all the stuff and then. we'll we'll decide you know uh but they. don't want to do it that way they want. to have a hierarchical system that that. decides what's more ath like you talk.

about Google's search engine like they. changed they they had the thing called. project owl that they implemented in I. think it was. 2017 where they changed their um their. way of measuring what stories come up. first um and they they shifted to a. model that emphasized what they call. Authority. and when I asked them what that meant. they told me they the analogy they gave. was think about if you if you search for.

baseball previously you might have. gotten your local Little League now. you're going to get. mlb.com right. so whatever we consider the more. authoritative source and that's based on. surveys of of people what people think. is authoritative that's what's going to. come up first so instead of if you. search for let's just say say trotskyism. instead of getting the world's leading. trotskyist website right which is the. world socialist website you will get.

like a New York Times story about trism. instead right because they because they. they want to push you towards the. authoritative Source right but that's. subjective right and and and again it's. it's it's. hierarchical um and and it's it's away. from the spirit of how we would like to. ingest information which is just let's. let's see all of it and make our own. decision and if you did come up with. your own search engine or your own.

factchecking organization that decided. what's true or what's not true the real. fear would that be that that would. eventually get compromised and that. someone will come along and they pay for. your advertising and do this and do that. and then slowly but surely get their. hooks into you which is what they've. done with Wikipedia yeah Wikipedia was. originally like this open source you. know kind of free thing now like just I. mean I'm I'm discovering this now with. the Twitter files you can't get uh.

Twitter files information into Wikipedia. because they will not. recognize um what what they call like a. I forget the term they use it's not an. authoritative Source it's like a. recognized Source or something like that. so as long as the big newspapers don't. cover. it they don't have a site that allows. them to put it into Wikipedia that that. that allows the algorithm to put it in. has no mainstream media Source covered. the Twitter files not really no they've.

they've done hit pieces on me and on. Elon and on Barry uh but they they. haven't covered the stuff in the stories. which is wild yeah I mean like you know. that is wild no matter what you think. about me or Elon Musk or whatever like. the stuff in in the files is is clearly. newsworthy I mean I if you didn't know. Bean the idea that the FBI and Homeland. Security having a system of sending.

moderation requests to every uh you know. internet platform in the country the. idea that that's not a news story is. insane to me like I I can't even process. that but you have you have to make a. conscious decision to not do that story. which is what they've done you know so. um which is really inditing yeah and and. and of course you know the they've done. a gazillion stories about you know how. I've I've become this evil sellout.

right-wing uh character uh The. Washington Post actually humorously. described me as a conservative. journalist and and and they had they. scrubbed it within a day because there. was so much blowback on Twitter but um. but I don't care about that so much cuz. I'm used to it by now but the it's a. message that's sent to other journalists. which is if you you know if you step.

outside the club we're going to we're. just going to dump buckets of [ __ ] on. you all day long and and that's going to. be your life forever right like you're. just and and you have to get used to. that and so you know that that's a new. part of the of the business like what. once when you broke a big story you got. like ploted from your peers uh and now. you know it's it's a it's a very. different. thing but you you still got to do it.

definitely you still got to do it but. here more importantly when they continue. to do that and call someone like you a. right-wing journalist or call someone a. far write this or an altright that and. then people objectively know that that's. not true then it undermines all of their. credibility and slowly but surely. dissolves all confidence that people. have in every other story that come out. with and that's what we're seeing that's. why the re like what New York Times is. today to the generation that's coming up. today has is not I used to deliver the.

New York Times just because it was the. New York Times it wasn't even profitable. for me I thought it was cool that I was. delivering the New York Times because I. delivered the Boston Globe and I. delivered the Boston Herald and I got a. route for the times that's awesome and. the times was a pain in the ass because. I had to drive like if I was doing the. Boston Globe which was the most popular. paper wait what town were you in Boston. New Newton Newton so uh I would deliver. I would get up every morning i' work 365. days a year you have to deliver every. day if you have a paper route I used to.

have a paper rout in m so um I would get. up and I would go to the depot I'd pick. up my Heralds I'd pick up my um globes. at a different place then I'd go and get. my New York Times at a different place. and the New York Times was a nightmare. because like if I was going to deliver. to the Boston Globe if I'm on one street. I might have 10 houses on the street but. the the [ __ ] times I might have one. and then might have to go a mile to my. next house and you got to you got to. carry the bag the whole way right and I. would try to coordinate my routes right.

so I would have a route that was all the. Globes and then I have a route that was. the Heralds and then I would have the. times and the times was a nightmare but. I delivered the times just cuz it was. the New York Times you thought it was. cool it was cool they had a blue plastic. bag everyone else had a white one and. you know it's like if that guy got the. times delivered that's a smart dude. that's a guy who's reading the New York. Times and I read the New York Times so I. was like you know I'm going to deliver. the times like I I felt like I was a. cooler person for delivering the New. York Times that doesn't not that does.

not exist with 21 year old people of. today no when I was 21 that was like you. mean I had aspired to be a more. intelligent more well- read person and. that to me was a symbol of that like and. I would get a free copy of it every day. and I would read it after I was done. working that doesn't exist anymore. nobody gives a [ __ ] about the New York. Times and they think about them as like. some left-wing Tumblr blog that's what. it is it's like yeah it's it's it's not.

even it's not even like the. establishment paper no it's it's just. yeah like you say it's it's it's a it's. like a uh a Facebook group for a small. group of kind of you know wealthy people. like who you know all went to the same. schools I don't know it's it's it's. dull and uninformative at the same time. ideologically driven beyond belief like. 100% for sure not getting an objective.

analysis of whatever the story is you're. getting it from a very particular slant. one way or the another and that's that's. not sustainable it's not sustainable. with this new group of people that are. coming up that have the internet these. kids have access to all these. independent people talking about things. whether they're doing it on YouTube or. podcast or substack or whatever it is. they get access to Independent people. that are talking about real information.

and every time the New York Times prints. [ __ ] every time the Washington Post. prints [ __ ] it further undermines. their credability and further slides. them down this inevitable road that. they're on right and it's a road to. obscurity there nobody's going to care. anymore it's like you're seeing it take. place at CNN you're seeing it take place. with all these cable news networks. you're seeing it take place with late. night television nobody gives a [ __ ]. about it anymore I know and it's slowly. you're you have a bad business model and. you're not adapting yeah yeah the the.

the creativity is gone and for for for. late night comedy right like that's not. really a thing anymore uh you got Jimmy. Fallon doing a song about different. variants of covid yeah I did you see. that yeah could we see it though have. you seen it I saw I saw I saw the anax. Barbie one which was amazing I didn't. see that one um but this one is so. strange it's like I mean I what did they.

drug him up with to get him to agree to. do this like I want to be in the Mee I. want to be a fly on the wall in that. meeting where they go okay Jimmy this is. what we're going to do you're GNA be. singing about all the different variants. and it's like here's a song and you're. going to be dancing and sing he like. okay okay okay okay okay be the best. it's X point. 1.5 another brand of covid-19 has. arrived it's a new strain but it isn't.

the same sounds more like Elon Musk his. name it's. xbb one.5 not U 40 who sings Red Red. Wine put on your Mas when you're inside. a facility it could be a robot from a. Star Wars Trilogy all right God what is. happening there. so that's supposed to be is that dvo. that he's Shack yeah oh that's that's. right it's b52s.

right no who's Love Shack was it b502. that sounds. right. theack yeah it is a b52s right yeah. that's it. right yeah you're right you're right of. course of course yes oh God but that's. just like straight up what is that it's. insane. like look at his little dance like. there's no enthusiasm in his face it's. like he's.

drugged I mean it kind it kind of. reminds you of like a. Uso thing right I don't know what it. reminds me of it reminds me of Madness. it's just pure Madness like he that's. not what he got in his show business. like what they they'll someone talked. him into doing that like that's not his. idea somebody had a meeting I don't. think it's 30 million subscribers to. that video did not do very well 104,000. views and 4,000 of them are us we played. it twice or three times.

now that's really nobody gives a [ __ ]. about that that's nonsense how do they. have that many subscribers too they. probably buy them that's the problem too. is so you're finding out how many people. buy social media followers right right. yeah and that people were selling uh. blue check marks at Twitter that's the. other weird thing where you could they. were selling verified accounts so like. you could pay someone and they would get. you verified people were spending like5. $10,000 how little of a life do you have. to have for that to matter that much to.

you I think I guess if you're like an. independent journalist or you're some. sort of a YouTuber that's trying like if. you have that check next to your name. that gives you more credibility I love. when the fact they were removing check. marks like we're going to take away your. oh yeah they did that to Thomas chatter. Williams remember that after the Harper. letter no oh what was that about I we. still don't know they they just they. just took his check mark away um he was.

the guy who organized the Harper's. letter the for you know the pro pro Free. Speech. declaration no I'm not aware of that so. or I forgot about it it was like. a it was a a petition where he he. organized a bunch of high-profile people. basically to say that like cancelling is. bad and we should we should all respect. each other's opinions and and um and you. know support academic freedom and that. that sort of thing so we got people like.

Salon rushy and Nome. Chomsky uh to sign onto it uh but then. he Al there were there was also Barry. Weiss and JK Rowling were on the. list and it soon became a thing in the. media that to be on the Harpers letter. was like me it was like membership in a. hate. Society uh and he was just absolutely.

dumped upon. um you he he was denounced as a racist. even though he's black uh and you know. he got he got his check taken away I I. actually I don't know if he had it he. was trying to get verified it seems like. that's I'm I'm reading this article. about it right now and he's saying like. he tried to get verified here for the. time maybe he got it taken away and he I. think he got it taken away cuz. I he he had it at one point says denied.

verification did he definitely have it. at one point in time I don't I don't I I. I'm just saying I don't know that that's. what this story sounds like it was it. sounds like he was trying to get it. again is that what is that is so amaz I. mean this brings me back to that. conversation I had with that YouTube. lady was say it's hate speech right it. is so amazing that you would say that. freedom of speech and to be able to talk. about things openly is somehow hate. speech yeah no the the the the Harper's. letter thing was was nuts because if you.

actually read the Harper's letter it's. it's so anod there it it barely says. anything at all it just it's it's very. Kumbaya it's just like hey let's all get. along like you know let's let's not. let's not get people fired for saying. harmless things that kind of thing crazy. talk right yeah outright crazy talk yeah. and and it it became a huge thing I mean. it it changed media like it ended up um.

being one of the reasons that Matt. glacius left Vox which he co-founded uh. because he signed the letter and there. was somebody on staff who felt. threatened by that and uh it was a whole. Kur fuffle within the media industry. which is you know endlessly Naval gazing. anyway but um but yeah no the. the you can you can you can be you you. can become the the the subject of one of. those.

ridiculous uh villain for the day uh you. know campaigns really really easily now. do you think that that is changing. because now people aren't scared to. speak their mind on Twitter like you're. seeing so much push back when someone. types something on Twitter now and it's. ridiculous now people aren't scared to. go in after it they're not worried about. losing their account which they were. before which is I think one of the more. interesting things about Elon Musk.

buying Twitter is that you are seeing a. much more vigorous debate you're seeing. a lot more trolling you're seeing a lot. more people that are posting like. ridiculous gifts like to make fun of. people after they say something stupid. yeah yeah I mean I I hope I hope that's. one of the results right because the the. old Twitter was you know was just a. grindstone of official messaging where. if you if you said what like a thing. like a micr meter outside whatever the.

narrative was you could expect to just. be descended upon by all these people. and and nobody you just ended up not. wanting to bother right so you wouldn't. say anything um but you know I I hope. people are are feeling encouraged to to. say more now um but you as you know as. experience shows you can still end up. getting lots and lots of you know [ __ ]. in the media for for doing the wrong.

thing so and that can last quite a long. time but I mean how much influence does. that media really have anymore I mean. and just because something's written. down how much different is it than. people just having a conversation and. putting that conversation on YouTube. like the the actual idea that's someone. writing an article about someone like a. hit piece on you for instance that that. has an impact anymore it's no it's. really no different than two people on. some sort of a progressive podcast. talking about oh Matt Matt taii is now a.

right winger now it's like right crazy. like what happened to him he used to be. the guy with the Rolling Stone he was so. Progressive and now he's a right used to. go after uh you know Wall Street now. right it's not those articles don't work. no they don't work and people aren't. reading them yeah and. and look I mean I mean you know of this. too right because the when uh there was. that whole movement to try to get Bernie. Sanders to denounce you and everything.

like that like after you you endorse. them um if you're not if you're not. afraid of whatever the ultimate. consequence is like you know you learn. that you know these cancellation. episodes are. survivable um once that happens you lose. your fear of it pretty quickly and I. think I think well they they embolden. people uh after they've survived it. that's the other thing yeah that now you.

realized that oh this is okay like I I. could do this yeah not only that like. like when all the things was happening. with Spotify with me I gained 2 million. subscribers in a month right so it. worked the opposite way like Patrick Bet. David did a whole thing on he said I he. goes in my estimation the amount of. publicity they gave him was worth about. $300 million. that's great yeah but that's the new. world whereas using those methods before.

we had independent journalism before we. had the internet before we had YouTube. and all these different ways that you. could just get a message out it was a. death sentence yeah if they all came at. you in targeted fashion like they did. you're [ __ ] like they they were going. to change the narrative you and it. changed the narrative already with some. people some people still believe certain. things about me because they read it on. CNN or they heard it on CNN sure sure. there's no way you can get around that. but for most people that are actually. paying attention all it does is. undermine The credibility of those.

sources anybody's calling you a. right-wing journalist like anybody who. knows you know that's knows that. straight horseshit right so like the the. amount of damage they're doing to their. own reputation by Say by printing that. the the individual author and the. publication itself the publication. should be terrified of anybody that. would WI be so willing to undermine. their credibility by calling you a. right-wing journalist for just one point. about one thing that they disagree with.

you on so they're going to make this. blanket statement that's so patently. untrue and so obviously. researchable right that you should if. they I that was my news organization i'. be like what the [ __ ] are you doing do. you know what damage you're going to do. by calling him a right-wing journalist. now what 100,000 people that are going. to read this you got 50,00 people that. now think you're capable of being full. [ __ ] right and they're probably going to. go over to substack or they're going go. Spotify or whatever it is you know I.

mean like that's yeah they haven't. figured that out yet um you know there's. still the collateral damage of you know. they're able to say nasty things about. you that people hear which is not fun. yeah um but you know you're right there. there was a moment before uh Independent. Media. where if if they all decided to do it. you were done you know I mean I I I. remember the first time that that you. know that I knew there was a story. coming out about me and my past with the.

Exile and I knew I I was in serious. trouble and and and uh like at the time. there was no alternative like you know. if if the club kicked you out there was. nowhere else to go in journalism um or. or in any kind of media job and uh but. but that's diff that's no longer the. case they don't have that absolute power. anymore um they have less power than the. independence which is nuts and it.

happens so quickly right right I mean if. you look at like what uh Crystal and. Sager have done and that in Breaking. points breaking points is [ __ ]. gigantic now and I remember when they. weren't independent they were thinking. about going independent I was like I'll. help you I'm like we can do this you. guys you guys are fantastic you're. you're honest you talk about thing I. mean I might not agree with you but. you're talking about things based on. your actual interpretation of what's. going on in your opinions on these. things that's what people want yeah and.

they and they had a they had a concept. that at the time was forbidden which was. people on the opposite end of the. political Spectrum trying to have a. civilized conversation remember when. they used to have a show like that on. Fox Hannity and Colmes right remember. that but that that was sort of like pro. wrestling like Co coles's job was to get. pinned right yeah you know I. mean it wasn't it wasn't a real fight.

yeah oh he tapped out quick too yeah. yeah he always got pinned but that's. what the show was it was like we got a. guy from the left we got a guy from the. right and you know hany went on to. become a big star and where did Colmes. go uh he quit probably got brain damag. from being pinned so many. times that would be interesting what. whatever happened to Alan Colmes that. that would be an interesting question to. does he have a podcast or anything where. is that guy but he was just so. wishy-washy he was like the perfect.

caricature of a left-wing guy confronted. by a strong right-wing pro-america you. know Sean. Hannity friends with Trump you know like. yeah no I I I remember I um I knew a guy. named Jeff Cohen who was briefly on. CrossFire uh he he he played the from. the left person and uh he told me like. afterwards that the the role of the. liberal in that.

show was to be somebody who couldn't. punch back right like. like they were they were trying not not. so much to talk about the politics but. the Highlight the kind of weaning of of. that character right uh and so because. he's a he didn't go along with it so he. didn't last uh terribly long in that in. that role but um but that's the kind of. person they wanted they wanted somebody. who was kind of. snively uh retreating yeah right and and.

the the the conservative was always like. this attacking. aggressive uh you know sort of No. Nonsense No Nonsense like sort of. cackling uh confident character um it. made for good TV uh but it you know as. politics it was totally nuts um so yeah. what so what Crystal and Saga are doing. is like the better version of that but. an honest version of that an honest.

version of and they're really our. friends they like they like each other. they he is on the right she is on the. left and they disagree on things but it. works it really works right and and and. why why is that forbidden that's a. really interesting question right like. why do people not want us to know that. it's possible for people on the right. and the left to talk in a civilized way. and disagree on some things but still. get along like. yeah why doesn't anybody want us to know. that like that I I I think that's a.

question that's worth exploring like wh. why why does why does CBS want not want. us to know that why ises why does fox. for that matter not not want us to know. that I think the fear is that if you do. allow that like say if you're uh NBC or. C CNBC and you allow this right left. thing to happen on your show what if the. person on the right makes a really good. point mhmh and what if they swing people. more towards the right like what if this. person's on the air multiple times and.

they're really compelling and maybe. they're better at arguing or maybe. they're more reasonable or maybe they're. more objective or maybe they're more. calm maybe they whatever about them is. more attractive than the person who's on. the left now all a sudden you got a. problem because now you have people that. are tuning in specifically for this one. woman or one man who is Right leaning on. a Network that has a pro Progressive. agenda you have a leftwing agenda right. right and you're funded by these. left-wing super packs and leftwing.

special interest groups and left-wing. advertising and you're like hey hey hey. what is this [ __ ] abortionist murder. argument that this guy just made. reasonably what is this you know like. like term limits argument that this. person made what is this what is this. argument this person made about getting. money out of politics are you [ __ ]. crazy get that off of there yeah and and. that's too bad because what it what ends. up happening is we we end up uh in this.

sort of system of that's of bifurcated. media where everybody's in armed camps. like they they don't talk to one another. because there's no model for that in. American society like we we we don't. have a place where we can see people of. differing political opinions getting. along with one another and acting like. civilized human beings like it it. doesn't really exist in like. establishment culture establishment. media um but people people that's why.

people are rejecting it because they. they know like they they they're picking. up their kids at school and talking to. some to to their neighbors who they know. are have totally different politics and. they're getting along fine with them. yeah right and and so they know it's a. lie you know uh and and I think it's. exhausting and it's it's it's starting. to run its course which is great because. i' I've been waiting for it to run it. course for a long time so uh it's cool. to see well that's why the world. economic forum and things along those. lines are so fascinating because you can.

see that they're the ones that are. holding the strings that dangle the. narratives in front of the people that. make them attractive and then you. realize like well this is not our real. problem our problem is not really these. narratives our problem is who's. promoting these narratives and what are. they doing while they're promoting that. and we're distracted well they're trying. to Institute a centralized digital. currency they trying to you know give. people vaccine passports and some sort. of a social credit score system they're. they're trying to do all sorts of weird. methods of control that you're not going.

to be able to get out of it on your with. if you're on the left or if you're on. the right it's going to [ __ ] up. everybody's life and in the meantime. we're arguing about who who's right. Greta thorberg or Andrew Tate right like. it's like the these distractions that. they put in front of us in the media. that get us so hyped up while real [ __ ]. is going down that there's real. decisions that could be made that might. affect you forever the amount of Freedom. you have your ability to travel your. ability like in China you say the wrong. thing you can't buy a plane ticket you.

can't go anywhere you oh sorry you're. not allowed to buy a home we saw you. tweet about something we we found. disagreeable well we have to worry about. that now too in the states though and. right we have to you have to worry if. you cross a certain line are you going. to are you are they going to make it. difficult for you to process your credit. card transaction will you be. unemployable will you be unemployable. like you know um will you will you not. be able to use PayPal anymore you know.

you like it's it's stuff like that that. you know that kind of creeping. dystopian uh sort of systems of. control it's a big news story. and I think people recognize that it's a. serious thing but we don't we don't see. it talked about very much in the the. corporate press. because uh again they're they're in. favor of it right so that but I I'm.

terrified by all that stuff when PayPal. was saying they were going to find. people for misinformation and I'm like. hey hey hey you guys are just supposed. to be a way I can buy things online yeah. that's it when you're saying what. misinformation on what on what platform. on any platform what if I'm at home are. you listening like how the [ __ ] do you. what are you saying when you're saying. Miss information you're going to find me. where's that money going you're stealing. money from me because you don't agree. and what happens if it turns out that. misinformation turns out to be true yeah.

no I did a uh I did a story about I. think it was mint press got uh they had. funds Frozen by um by by PayPal if I. remember correctly and um but the yeah. but the idea that this this company they. should be doing one thing. they're they're trying to make a. transaction happen why are they in the. the truth business exactly like they're. they're that can only happen if.

something has gone wildly wrong in. society and PE somebody feels the need. to start using all these different. pressure points to to control people. like whether or not you can process. credit credit card transactions or uh. you know. PayPal um you know if you if you leave a. record of of. you know certain kind of web surfing. maybe you know that's that's going to. you know be a negative that will appear.

somewhere like yeah that stuff is all. scary like. we it's a it's it's a serious problem I. think um especially when it comes to. money like you you're you you can freeze. funds you can move money around so you. can withdraw money from someone's. account because you think like what was. it like 2,000 500 or something around. those lines something like that some. fine that you would get for. misinformation so if your grandma posts. some crazy [ __ ] about Trump really.

winning the election you know you have a. crazy Qin on Grandma like they're going. to steal her money yeah like what do you. what are you saying like right or the or. the Canadian trucker thing where the go. the GoFundMe thing right like you raise. a whole bunch of money not just the. GoFundMe thing about they froze their. [ __ ] bank accounts yeah yeah and all. these people did was protest. right and you don't have to agree with. the protest but you you certainly have. to you certainly have to be freaked out. by the response to it well also freaked. out that Trudeau is one of the young.

global leaders of the world economic. forum and that Trudeau labeled the. truckers as misogynists and racists. right like be says who right where are. you getting this from you're not even. like pointing to a thing they've said. you're just saying that in this blanket. statement to try to diffuse everything. they've said and everything they stand. for it's so transparent and so such a. Checker's move in a world of 4D chess.

yeah I. mean I always think back to this moment. in the 2016 presidential campaign when. uh Bernie was drawing some blood against. Hillary by you know talking about her. the gigantic speaking fee she was taking. from Banks and they tried to throw a. bunch of stuff back at him none of it. worked until one day she came out and. she she said this thing um if we break. up the banks tomorrow will that end. racism and.

suddenly this. idea sort of popped out into the ether. that talking about Hillary Clinton's. ties to Banks was. somehow um somehow racist or. somehow um not Progressive right and. because Sanders who had grown up his. whole life in that. ecosystem there was nothing more. terrifying than being accused of of. racism or misogyny or whatever it was. because they they came out with the.

Bernie bro thing right after that yeah. exactly and and it was a disciplinary. method basically right like if you if. you if you go to a certain place we're. going to start dropping these words on. you and those words are not survivable. in certain in certain areas right you. know so it's it's very effective but it. I think I it can't be effective forever. I don't think no I I think that. Effectiveness is waning like a bucket.

with a hole in the bottom of it and I I. don't think there's any Escape I I think. that the path they've put themselves on. you you can't return from it and I think. they're doomed I really do I think we're. looking at a future where almost all. credible media is independent I really. do I I just don't think they're going to. make it I think the the only thing that. Hollywood will be good for and like. these entertainment corporations would. be good for is creating things that are. exorbitantly expensive like films with. special.

effects well they are good at that still. yeah but that's the only thing they'll. be able to do they make they make good. action movies uh with with superheroes. in them I guess I mean you can make. films with iPhones now I mean a real. film like uh I have a a guy that was on. the podcast name uh Sunny from best ever. Food review he goes to these uh. countries and and samples their exotic. foods and and and and travels and sees. their cultures and hangs out with these. tribal people really interesting show on. YouTube um he went to Egypt and They.

confiscated all of their equipment. everything they took all of their. cameras even though they had visas they. had working visas he said it's the worst. place to film they're very restrictive. and since then because he made a video. about it they they've actually changed. the laws point being he decided to film. the entire episode on iPhones and it. looks great right it looks amazing. because these new iPhones are so [ __ ]. good and these new Samsung phones are so. good you don't need really complicated.

equipment anymore you can make a really. great 4K video with your phone easily. plenty of storage it's not hard to do. yeah so that's what they did and now. he's looking at it like man why are we. traveling with all this [ __ ] I could. just have my cameraman use iPhones yeah. and you don't you don't need a big. institutional backer anymore so and and. if the only way they can fight back. against independent content creators is. by calling every single one of them a.

you know racist misogynist right-winger. or whatever whatever uh pretty soon. you're going to get to the situation. where we're near it now where all those. people like are running into one another. and like every single one of them in a. room is has already been through. episodes like that right uh like you. know it loses its power at that point. you know like once once you've done it. to a million people or two million.

people like people stop being shocked uh. by the term Cry Wolf yeah exactly so. yeah it's um it's a weird time really. interesting yeah it's fun yeah it's fun. to watch everything get [ __ ] thrown. up into the wind and and Scatter all. over the place it's fun it is it is fun. and I'm I'm actually having fun. with the job for the first time in a. long time so um I hope you are too I'm. having a great time yeah do you enjoy um. doing substack and being independent and.

doing things the way you do and doing. your podcast are you enjoying that yeah. yeah I mean. I it's it's a it's a little different CU. I used to have the luxury to spend 10. weeks on investigating something and I I. don't anymore I got to crank stuff out. right yeah but I would never have been. able to do this Twitter files thing you. know just on a lar without asking lots. of people for permission you know what. I'm saying like um can I ask you this. how did how does Elon um set that up how.

did he approach you guys. individually um you know I. mean I I I woke up and I got. a text one day basically and um you know. do would would you like to do this and. uh the answer of course is yes and but. by the way people people talk about this. all the time they they they want to make. a big deal. about because there there was an army of.

people the after the first Twitter files. who all said the same thing like imagine. doing PR for the richest man on earth. right like that was the universal. response of all the medi hassans of the. world. um look this is a the story here is. about organ organizations that are. vastly more powerful even than the. richest man on earth it's about the FBI. the NSA the CIA the dod like DHS and.

it's about an it's an opportunity to see. how these these figures operate in the. wild when you get a source like that. like. um it's not important what their motives. are what what's important what your. motives are you know my motives are I. want to I want to know what was going on. and what what these how these. organizations operate and you would.

never turn down that no no real. journalist would turn down that. opportunity you know and and. incidentally I kind of like Elon Musk I. mean I he's you know he's he's got. a he's got a sense of humor uh about. this that um and and I think and I think. he's his. ideology um in terms. of you know the desire for putting this.

out there I mean who would do this who. who would spend that much money to do. this his sense of humor is an internet. sense of humor oh absolutely like he. posted that Meme of the pregnant man. next to the photo of Bill Gates in his. pot belly and he said in case you want. to lose a boner real fast and he put. that on Twitter I mean imagine getting. Dunked On by the richest man in the. world on. Twitter but that's hilarious hilarious. right I mean again what could you.

imagine John Jacob Aster or you know you. know one of the Guggenheim do doing like. a a teenage joke in public of of course. not uh it's it's funny yeah uh it's it's. it's the same Phenomenon with with with. Trump it's like you know I couldn't. stand in his politics but if you denied. that he was funny right you you were. lying right like the the campaign was. funny when he called Kim jnun Little. Rocket Man I mean come on on that shit's.

hilarious the guy's got great timing I. mean he could have been a standup his. his timing is. excellent yeah if he had you think yeah. he probably would have been good yeah. sure yeah yeah probably said some. hilarious [ __ ] look if the guy can and. he's good off the cuff it's not saying. he's the best leader we've ever had not. saying he's a great Statesman or a great. president or even a good representation. of what America is supposed to stand for. cuz not he's not you know and it's he's.

a real problem he's a real problem. because there's a lot of people that are. conservative minded fiscally. conservative hardworking people they. don't like any of his Antics and they're. they're they're forced to choose between. someone they deeply disrespect versus. someone who they also deeply disrespect. it's like what am I do here right how do. I go I'm I'm trying to figure out if I'm. conservative anymore I I'm am I a. liberal now am I and you don't know. because you don't want to align yourself. with problematic personalities that also. embody some of the economic ideas that.

you agree with right right but his his. his sendup of the whole process yeah was. accurate yeah you know the SW I mean the. the and the the selfs seriousness of it. right like he he was he was constantly. kind of making. fun of of how um how how seriously. people to like Hillary Clinton took.

themselves yeah and uh it there was no. way it was not going to land like you. know je or Jeb Bush you know saying my. mother is the strongest person on on in. the world and him you know saying she. should she she should be running you. know like that stuff was just it was it. was the design it was was it was never. not going to work right you know uh. and the fact that none of us or none of. the reporters could see it at the time. was was just kind of amazing yeah well I.

think people were just so terrified that. an [ __ ] like that could actually win. and become president and I remember we. were watching we did a be uh an end of. the world podcast from The Comedy Store. where a bunch of comics we you know we. were like watching the election take. place and talking [ __ ] while it was. happening and then uh afterwards uh you. know it was all over we were like all. stunned and we went back to the. comedian's bar and I was watching Jake. Tapper on TV with this like somber look.

in his face report well it really does. look like Trump is the president like. the whole thing was so surreal and. wild that I mean they just did. everything they could to stop that from. happening and it didn't work yeah yeah. no I mean and and even till the end I. didn't think it was going to happen but. but then Florida came in do do you. remember that moment yeah yeah and uh. and then I was like holy [ __ ] this is. gonna happen like one of the best things. just watching the compilation of The.

Young Turks watching the election go. down in the beginning being super. confident and then towards the end. they're like. [ __ ] you know and then there's the same. people that have to pretend that Biden's. okay like it's amazing how well this. country is running while Biden is. literally not there oh yeah. yeah completely absent yeah out of it. gone I mean it's weekend at Bernie the.

the whole the whole presidency and and I. love the idea that they're going to do. weekend at bernes too which is which is. great now I wanted to ask you about this. because this is I had a conspiracy. theory um I think when he announced that. he was going to run again and he said. that he was going to run again he talked. about running again then they started. finding like classified files. absolutely absolutely you I mean you saw. last week Andrew Weissman who was one of. the lead prosecutors in the Muller. investigation was tweeting all these.

things about Biden right uh you know so. you there's there's no question that the. the party and maybe some folks in. certain agencies um were sending him a. message I think yeah um yeah you can't. prove that uh or it's it's not easily. provable but it C feels way yeah it. seems it seems very transparent like a. lot of news stories uh you know uh it. seems pretty obvious what's going on um.

but but again that's what we that's what. we need a real press for to get to the. bottom of it so that we can actually. talk about it you know yeah yeah but. clearly yeah right I mean it's been six. years you know they didn't go looking. for that stuff in the Corvette. until there there was suddenly decision. that nah we don't really want him. running again but it's just so amazing. to watch the hypocrisy play out like do. you not remember what you said about the.

documents at Mara Lago that wasn't that. long ago and at least in Mara Lago they. were in a safe well mine was in a locked. garage you oh your garage was locked. well those are impossible to get into. they're way harder to get into than a. safe was it in the backseat of a classic. car he had him in his [ __ ] Corvette. right didn't he yeah exactly yeah and he. made a big deal about that too and then.

they weren't just there they were in. multiple locations so they keep finding. these these classified documents after. he had given Trump so much [ __ ] like. they wanted to take Trump down for. having these classified documents. they're making it like this huge. sticking point I mean they're throwing. the Espionage Act at which is like you. know years account for that right I mean. and meanwhile Biden is even more right I. know I know I his own AIDS turned him.

in yeah it's like an inspector clo act. the whole thing is it's incredible um. what do you think happens in 2024 like. who do who do the Democrats pick do you. think they go with kamla again or does. she develop a. disease maybe she's like anxiety or. maybe she's got restless leg syndrome. and she can't do it anymore. yeah something unfortunate is going to. happen to her I mean. like they they have to know that she's. not viable as a candidate because they. tried twice already to make her the.

candidate in the last election cycle. well maybe if they waigh enough. time but she but passage of time it. wasn't that she wasn't you. know reaching a a contender threshold. she was she was basically flatlining. despite massive media attention you know. TW speech writers and they get a hold of. her and go listen this is your last.

[ __ ] chance at this dance okay we got. to do this right and this is what you. got to do you got to listen to the. speech writers no more ad living and no. more doing this she did this a lot we're. going to write some stuff for you and no. more going off script she when she goes. off script she Rambles you know yeah I. don't I think they want Gavin Nome to be. the the candidate do you think that's. sustainable though like it's like he's. oh he's totally unlikable like in the. worst way but but I get the sense that.

that's who they want to be the candidate. I mean look they had the guy in the. White House when when Biden went. overseas. um yeah he went to the freaking White. House he's filmed going into the White. House when Biden takes a trip overseas. what was he doing there I I forget uh. but this was this was at the time when. he was running campaign ads against the. santis I mean don't you think people. will go ballistic if they try to do KLA. Harris and him cuz if KLA Harris decid. to stay then like what is she the.

president or is he the president and if. KL Harris leaves people going to freak. out like where is she going like. something has to almost H like if I was. writing a script not saying in the and I. definitely don't want anything to happen. to her but if I was going to write a. script I was say like some [ __ ] has to. go down no I mean they can they can just. it could be a scandal yes that's that's. what I'm saying some [ __ ] has to go down. and there's stuff there isn't there I. mean there's stuff with her husband and. and finances and you know is there yeah. I think so so um at least the appearance.

of it so who would it be it would be. Gavin Newsome and who else I don't know. I mean look they they they' clearly. tried to make buddhic a candidate um but. he's such fool but again he's he's. another one of these people who was. Market tested extensively in the 2020. campaign I mean I covered that campaign. um they don't the these candidates uh. it's it's somebody's idea of who would. be a popular candidate but in reality.

these candidates do not register with. ordinary voters like better or work was. another one yeah you know I I watched. them on on the trail in Iowa and voters. just you. know you know he he would sort of. tearfully talk about problems at the. border and um and they just weren't. interested meanwhile like he's a soap. opera actor yeah that's what he's like. he's like a shitty soap opera actor. trying to go through these lines and. you're like I don't resonate with.

anything you're saying he does look like. a like the handsome young Doctor Who has. an affair out of wedlock. [Music]. right that actually is is kind of he. might be better at that um but by the. big story of 2020 to me was always how. ly High Biden's numbers were right like. people did respond to him even though he. was clearly crazy like like you know he. he would go out there and his his.

emotional register would be all off he. would stick his finger in people's. chests um he would go off on people in. crowds but somehow people responded to. that uh and he kept you know he he. wouldn't sink far far enough in the pole. so that so that he would be pushed out. of the race um how accurate are polls. and how manipulated are polls I think. polls are they can be. useful over periods of time right like.

because the polls were clearly. wrong um about. Trump uh you know the polling analyses. of you know like for instance they'll. they'll do things like um you know. favorability unfavorability ratings but. that sometimes doesn't take into account. other issues like people will still vote. for somebody they feel unfavorably. toward if they hate the other candidate. more you know yeah uh. and I think they do tell you something.

you I mean as. reporters you should never get in the. habit of being too reliant on them as um. as indicators but if but if a candidate. can't get above two or 3% over a year. right um then you you might want to you. know take that seriously and especially. if it if it follows through and is. matched by results right like but it's. to me it's almost like the heavyweight.

division when Tyson was a champion there. was no Challengers that's true it's like. what do what do I get to be excited. about like there's no one that seems. like they could step up that's true yeah. who was the Bone Crusher Smith might. have been the best guy he fought right. I'm trying to remember who well there. was a run like Bruce Seldon looked good. he looked part there was a few guys. Frank Bruno looked apart but it's like. Tyson was so dominant that like there. was no one to get excited about and it's. not like saying that there's anyone. dominant like that I mean guess Trump is. pretty dominant but he's got a lot of.

resistance on the right too but the. point is that like in the left there's. no. Contender that is that is compelling. that you could see I mean they've tried. to push Buddha they've they gave up an. Elizabeth Warren they've tried to push. some of these people but no one stands. out yeah I mean they made mistake I. think I think they had a window where. Bernie would have been a viable. candidate maybe they're scared of Bernie. like the the way same way they're scared. of tulsey gabard right can't control her. yeah no no they're they're not they're.

not the organizational people right uh. even though Bernie tries very hard to be. a good Democrat I mean that's I think. part of his personality that um end. ended up being a fatal flaw I think for. him he I mean he loves the Democratic. party he grew up in it and if you talk. to him about it he'll He he'll talk. about how his fond memories of um of the. party and and how he doesn't want to see. it fractured uh but that ended up being. his undoing he he needed to be he needed.

to be in burn it all down mode the way. Trump was yeah uh actually if he did go. that way right oh my God he might have. won yeah he might have won If he if he. if he if he started ran and raving I'm. mad as hell and I can't take it anymore. exactly yeah exactly but he he he didn't. he didn't want to permanently damage AG. either Biden or Hillary even though. especially Biden because he he liked. Biden as a person um and this I know. because I I've talked to people who.

worked for Bernie and um you know Biden. was nice to him when when Bernie came to. the Senate uh he he he couldn't stand. Hillary right so he was very aggressive. toward her in the beginning and that was. when he was doing really really well. um I I think I I think if he had pushed. it a little further in that first year. if he had been if he had been a little. bit more balls. out uh he might have won that one you. know um it would have been tough I mean.

he might have won the nomination at. least um well when you saw the collusion. between the the Democrats and during the. primaries with Bernie that Don of Brazil. talked about in her book it's like there. was a an effort to try to get rid of him. and. calculated Maneuvers to try to to get. him out of there which is really wild. it's really wild to see the way these. intricate little chest pieces move. around behind closed doors and then.

someone like Donna Brazil writes a book. and comes out with it and you get to see. like what what they were up to yeah I. mean they had a whole system they had. worked out this the invisible primary. and you know the the endorsements are. all lined up ahead of time and the. money's all lined up ahead of time and. um you know but Bernie did well to to. fight back against that I mean I think. the his big. accomplishment um looking back is going.

to be the proof of concept that you can. you can be the top. fundraiser in a race without taking. corporate money um which which he did do. in. 2020 um you know that's that that's an. important thing that he that he that he. f figured out but you're. right you know they have lots and lots. of ways to to put the thumb on the scale. the differences Trump overcame all of.

those yeah you know um just by just with. sheer [ __ ] and [ __ ] them um and. you know what that's on one level that's. impressive right yeah like that but. that's what it takes you know uh and I I. don't think I don't see a character like. that in the Democratic side who's who's. going to be able to pull that off to you. do you think no I don't I don't see. anybody like that I don't see anybody. coming up and I don't I don't see.

anybody in like the distant future. either no no but do you think that Ronda. santz can overcome. Trump like Ronda santz I think can get a. lot of people that are on the fence yeah. I think so I don't think Trump can I. think so I mean Trump trump is gonna. have Die Hard supporters and I've I've. learned never to write him off like I I. I did that after the Access Hollywood. thing happened I made the mistake of. putting that down in print I'm never. going to do that again um the guys like.

Jason he he never [ __ ] dies like he. he's he's he always comes back um but. you know Dan santis is. um he's he's survived one of the things. that's usually fatal for a republican. politician which is the the approval of. um pundits in the wa in Washington Post. in New York Times like they they all. kind of uh portrayed him as as the more.

civilized Republican alternative and. usually that's a death Nell for a. republican candidate in the Trump era um. but he's he's still hanging around and. he's a powerful enough figure yeah and. you know veteran he's got a lot a lot of. things going for him that and what he. did with Florida actually turned out to. have worked you know right right yeah I. mean I don't I I think it's going to be. difficult for the I mean it's it's so. unpredictable to the on the Democratic.

side right now um it's weird to see the. the incumbent party being in such. disarray uh at this stage of a. presidential race yeah uh so I'm looking. forward to covering it it's going to be. fun um I'm looking forward to seeing how. it plays out without someone censoring. Twitter right yes there's that too. that's a big one it's a big factor it's. a giant factor I mean if Twitter did not. censor the hunter Biden laptop story if.

that went viral and everyone knew about. it and they were forced to covered on. the news and they showed the images and. all the talk about 10% to the big guy. and the fact that he was getting these. contracts with barisma where he's making. millions of dollars totally unqualified. to get that money should not have been. in that position power saying that he. could use his influence and saying he. can connect people and get people to the. dance that was wild [ __ ] and the fact. that they came along and censored that. on Twitter and Facebook yeah and.

Facebook and then I mean Zuckerberg on. this podcast talked about it I I. remember when that you did that. interview. Cu uh you know you you have moments in. in this period where media has been so. controlled where you think man am I. crazy or did did did that just happen. you know like I like I thought that was. a really big deal when that happened you. know it was a big deal and and then you. know when that interview when when. Zuckerberg said it out loud even though.

he had testified about it before when he. said it out loud in that setting and he. kind of described it um you know you. have this you have this sort of almost. feeling of psychological relief like. okay all right I wasn't crazy I'm not. crazy you know what I'm saying they. really are doing that yeah and uh the. thing is when he testified about it like. you have to seek out that testimony you. have to read a review that testimony if. the you could just be consuming a. podcast just cuz you're you know you're. jogging or whatever and and he says well. the FBI contacted us and you're like.

what the wait the FBI contacted Facebook. and told you that this smacks of Russian. disinformation but it doesn't so they. lied and you did something that helped. get one guy elected over the other guy. based on lies and the lies at the FBI. how what else does the FBI lie about and. then and then you know you get into this. long history of manipulation and you're. like holy [ __ ] yeah yeah and they're.

having they're having these regular. industry meetings now that we know about. right yeah um you know we we're we're. we're looking at the agendas of those. and you. know it'll say other other government. organization I'm sorry other government. agency briefing right which is like CIA. briefing um you know what are they. talking about in those briefings like. what what else are they locking down on. and or what else are they amplifying de. amplifying like who knows right like.

that [ __ ] that that that's terrifying so. it it would be nice to go back to a. presidential campaign where maybe we. have something more like an organic. landscape to judge all this stuff well. we certainly will on Twitter unless. something radical happens over the next. two years which is a possibility I mean. uh you know Elon said that when he. bought Twitter it was on the FasTrack to. bankruptcy and you know that was. interesting to find out too that the. reason why they took that deal was like. it really wasn't profitable you know.

which is crazy because he bought it for. $44 million and it's worth almost. nothing right but it's very valuable. although it's not profitable it's very. valuable in what it can do and now he's. trying to figure out a way to make it. profitable yeah I don't I don't envy him. there [ __ ] yeah right I guess like the. the is to attract content creators and. give them a better portion of the. revenue than YouTube does yeah and you. could do that it does have the. infrastructure to do something like that. and it could become a hub of podcasts.

yeah you could easily have I mean see. there's no incentive for people to keep. their podcast only on uh iTunes one of. the things that iTunes has done it's. like a tremendous blunder in my opinion. is they never figured out a way to. monetize podcasts so they act as an. aggregator for podcast but they never. make any money off of it which is nuts. that's interesting I didn't know that. yeah it's nuts it's [ __ ] nuts if you. think about the fact that Spotify makes. [ __ ] Untold billions off of it and.

apple makes zero H like when you put. your podcast on iTunes on on Apple. podcast all you're doing is like linking. an RSS feed right to Apple podcast but. Apple doesn't profit off of it they just. distribute it like we had meetings with. them years ago before I ever went to. Spotify and I was like you guys don't. make any money off of this at all like. this is crazy like how could you have. something that's so widely distributed.

through your company and you make zero. money off of it that seems like a pretty. big oversight it's a giant [ __ ] up. because I think in the beginning they. thought of podcast as being just a joke. like no big deal right and then it. became this. enormous like media thing yeah yeah. well know there just a lack of foreset I. guess uh it's but it's ironic right the. the podcast is the one thing that you. you can't control you you you can't.

algorithmically uh clamp down on and. that becomes the most enormously popular. uh format I don't think that's a. coincidence so it's very bizarre yeah. Matt taibe I appreciate you very much. and thank you for coming in here Joe. thanks so much for having me thanks for. everything you do no thank you you're. one of the last. of the real ones out there doing it oh I. appreciate it and thank thanks for. having me on I'm so glad you're uh your. show's doing great and uh are are these.

the skulls of your vanquished enemies. yes this is Brian Selter this is Chris. Cuomo this is uh what's what's the other. guy's name the one was uh Jim dasta Jim. aosta yeah they're all I got them all. that's great excellent well may there be. more next time I come on yes sure thank. you brother appreciate you all right bye. everybody. [Applause]. [Music]. [Applause].

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