Joe Rogan Experience #1938 - Mariana van Zeller

[Music]. by night. [Music]. and we're up hello good to see you again. what's happening great to see you too. good to see you alive and well you scare. me sometimes with your dangerous. Adventures like real boots on the ground. investigative journalism yeah. we've been all over the world uh I think. last time I was here was two years ago.

yeah last time you had just gotten back. from the cocaine Manufacturing in The. Jungle which was wild and then you took. a backpack with the stuff and traveled. with the. and since I've reported on a lot other. drugs and other crazy situations and uh. we're now doing actually already filming. season four wow season three is coming. out tell people where to get it so yeah. it's uh trafficked with Mariana van. Zeller it's on National Geographic next.

day on Hulu and that's on Wednesdays at. 9 00 pm and it's about Black Market so. it's illegal markets around the world. whether it's drugs guns fight clubs. uh I mean or anything surrogacy illegal. surrogacy the craziest one to me was the. getting the guns in America and. transporting them to Mexico that that is. going on and then it's going on with. cops. it is uh it is for me it's always been I. think the first story I did on guns in.

America was about 12 15 years ago where. I was able to buy an AK-47 out of a Taco. Bell parking lot in Arizona where else. anywhere else than in Arizona and then. the funny thing where else but a Taco. Bell of course both those things of. course and then we went to a bar to sort. of celebrate the fact that we just. filmed this crazy thing that just. happened because we we knew it was. impossible that people were doing this. but we wanted to show it with our camera. so we had sort of secret cameras filming. and then I went out and I bought it and.

we went out to a bar after uh and I. ordered a beer and I forgot my driver's. license so it didn't give me a beer. that's hilarious it's not funny so no. beer but yeah I could go out with a. naked 47 and a few days later we bought. a 50 cal out of a guy's garage that we. went out into the desert and filmed. women like it when they get carded of. course we do yeah. unfortunately I don't get carded as. often nowadays it's just ridic. ridiculous you know come on I guess they. have to I mean but whatever oh come on.

it's crazy I know 21. come on I know. look at me but this was 12 years ago so. it's possible possible yeah. um how hard is it to buy an AK-47 it was. so easy we went online at the time I. can't remember the name of the website. Backpage at the time there's a website. website called Backpage where you could. essentially buy anything I don't think. that website exists anymore but it's not. even on the black market regular online. uh website and we went there and within. I think we spoke to the guy 20 minutes. before he said meet us here we went.

there it was him and his girlfriend were. there he was high on drugs and he had. two and he had an AR-15 with him as well. that he was also wanting to sell we. ended up buying the AK. um but yeah so I've been fascinated with. sort of. um how easy it is how do you know he was. high on drugs because you could tell. I've reported enough on drugs and meth I. think at the time probably he was very. jittery yeah yeah it was definitely an. upper I'm sorry. um and uh and then yeah so then we. decided to do this for the first season.

actually of traffic to story on guns and. how American Guns are winding up in the. hands of the cartel in Mexico and how. it's responsible for so much of the. violence that's happening there and sort. of this cycle which I don't think most. people think about how then the violence. leads people to immigrate to America and. then they come here and you know so it's. like a cycle of. violence and immigration it's all and. guns and it's all sort of connected but. whenever we do a story on guns and we. just want another one that I did on.

ghost guns was released last week on. National Geographic and uh it is the. most sort of controversial issue the Hot. Topic that we can always so I. immediately start getting messages of. people saying that I should go back to. my country and what am I doing and I'm. trying to take people away people's. rights to want a gun which is absolutely. not the case and it's uh yeah it's any. of the people wouldn't want to know the. police officers are confiscating guns. and then selling those guns to the.

Mexican cartel that you as a legal. law-abiding gun owner in America. wouldn't want that exposed yeah. absolutely and and that the guns that. people are buying and particularly with. this last episode on ghost guns which is. the fact that the guns that are now. these untraceable and licensed guns are. so easy to make and there are so many of. them are ending up in crime scenes. Across America and on the hands of gang. members and you know militant groups and.

anti-government groups and it's it's. scary and that's all what we're trying. to do as a journalist myself when we. decided to do the stories because I. started hearing from people talking. about how these guns are ending up in. the wrong place and how do they make a. ghost gun. it is I'm happy you're asking that. because I think it's the biggest people. don't understand out there they think. that when you talk about ghost guns that. it has to be 3D printed it's not a ghost. gun is an untraceable gun doesn't mean. that it has to be 3D printed however.

nowadays it's basically so it's a gun. that doesn't have a serial number and it. could have had a serial number and the. serial number was scrubbed and maybe. they put new fake serial number in there. um and but what happens is because of. the 3D printers. um it's now super easy to just print a. gun or gun parts at home so they're all. these companies out there who sell 80. kits that have everything to build a gun. except for the receiver but there's a. company for example called defense. distributed ran by Cody Wilson who was.

the first one to use a ghost gun or a. gun a 3D printed gun actually it's. called The Liberator and he got into all. sorts of trouble with Liberator yeah. and he's a strong believer in. um he said he wanted this to his his. company to be sort of the Wikileaks for. guns so that everybody could have access. to guns so he sells these kits that are. 80 kids and it's all everything you need. to buy again except for the lower. receiver which is what the ATF and the. government actually considers to be the. gun what part is the lower receiver it.

depends on which weapon I believe but. it's the bottom on the guns that he's. selling it's sort of the bottom piece. okay. um there's the Liberator yeah that is a. liberator yeah so this is all 3D printed. and he had he showed up it's an actual. gun that plastic is and you know. somebody pulled that on me I'd be. skeptical and this was several years ago. it's evolved a lot it's evolved a lot. since then yeah. wow so that's a real gun that plastic.

thing yeah. and so right now but yeah but if you. want to see some of the new ones and. what they're making yeah and these are. also ghost guns and some of that is. metal so what is it where some of it is. metal it can be all 3D printed some of. it is metal so you can buy it from. companies like hoodie Wilson's and then. today's 3D print metal. oh nowadays yes you can really have a. it's like a polyamer uh what's the. camera polymer polymer sorry polymer uh. material that is yeah that that that's.

what a lot of the guns are actually like. a carbon fiber or something because I've. seen carbon fiber barrels for hunting. rifles they make them very light so that. people can take them into the back. country when they go deep into the woods. there's all the kind of Parts you can. make with wow. oh one of the craziest things we filmed. for this ghost gun episode was actually. this these teenagers that were also. making. uh 3D and ghost Gardens and they came to. the desert with us and we spent a whole. day with them shooting guns and showing.

us what they build and they were also uh. making drop-in Sears which are little. pieces too that. transform a gun from semi-automatic to. fully automatic and they're illegal. actually in America you can't buy that. at a gun store but they're making them. for 50 cents. yeah wow it's so crazy. it's a crazy world how much like how. much of an education are you getting in. how [ __ ] we are by your show because I.

would I would be very pessimistic if I. had gone to all the places that you've. gone to and seen all the the chaos that. you've seen. I'm not uh I'm not pessimistic at all I. think one of the biggest surprises for. me filming this show has been. finding out that even the people not all. but the majority of the people that I've. met. um involved in these illegal activities. around the world. um that they are very much people just. like you and me and it is more often.

than not because of a lack of. opportunities that they end up involved. in a life of crime and I think. you know there is. the idea that no matter how far I travel. to the edges of our society and that I. can find still find people who are. relatable and redeemable. makes me actually have a very optimistic. view of the world of course that doesn't. apply to everyone you know when I'm. interviewing white supremacists who talk. about you know wanting death for. minorities or.

um you know other people that I've been. have you done that you've interviewed we. did we did was that on this season it's. on season two last season on white. supremacy. um where did you go. we went to Denver we interviewed Denver. [Music]. um. there is a uh we interviewed a couple of. people in Denver uh one of which was a. 28 year old I believe uh he was a I. can't remember what he was by day but.

uh he showed up wearing a swastika. um and uh he was talking about a race. war and he was going to do everything he. could to make this race War start and uh. and he was part of Adam Lawson which is. a big into white supremacist group that. has actually been responsible for some. deaths in the U.S how many of those. people just need like somewhere to. belong to and this is like something. that they find that they can. they can find a bunch of people that are.

energized about a very specific cause. and then they find that if they align. themselves with this group there's like. a camaraderie and a brothership in this. cause even if it's ridiculous and. disgusting I think a lot of them yeah I. think the vast majority of them actually. lost people yeah and it's the danger of. the internet right because it's a. loudspeaker unfortunately it's a place. where you can find that Community but. that Community is not always good it's a. danger of psychology too right this the. people are easily manipulated and they. want to belong to a group and especially.

if they think that it's like some sort. of a secret group that other people. don't know about and that they have this. cause they think is you know valid or. just or make sense of the world you know. maybe if the world is if they feel like. the world is not as unjust towards them. that they feel like there has to be a. reason behind it so maybe it is did you. ever see when w Kamal Bell uh went and. interviewed a bunch of KKK he's great at. that because he's such an easy going.

likable guy. he's so nice and so smart that when. they're with him they're like hey you're. different I'm like hey man you need some. black friends like just a lot of people. like that out there you [ __ ] idiot. yeah you know it's like these poor. sad lost people and then they're. committed to this thing this horrible. idea I know so much of it is comes out. of ignorance too yeah most of it yeah I. know and and foolishness yeah and it's. just it's so disheartening that that's. prevalent and does it's very sad yeah.

that sense of community is really. missing for a lot of people but you know. unfortunately it leads to a lot of hate. as well so those were the people that. for me were really difficult to. empathize with yeah I would imagine what. did you do this season. we did uh ghost guns we did one on LSD. psychedelics it was my first time ever. doing a story on psychedelics it's a. great episode we basically spent. months and months trying to get an.

interview with an LSD chemist there's. only a few of them out there yeah but. there's only like five or six in the. whole country which is crazy I know I. just found that out recently yeah it's. really really hard and we kept hearing. about these hermit hermit chemists who. live out in the forests and are hidden. and I mean we interviewed so many people. and talked to so many people to try to. get access to and like and then in the. end it was we we got access to a chemist. who is no longer a chemist but it was.

one of the most powerful interviews so. he quit after you interviewed them no he. got he got in trouble he was at LSU. chemiston he took time in prison. basically uh in the UK and he's but he's. American and he's now living in Montana. and he's now he actually he lives out of. school bus in Montana and it was a. really powerful interview because you. know we I spent so much time reporting. on drugs and talking to people who do it. because of the money and with. psychedelics we've filmed a lot of.

people involved in the psychedelics. business selling mushrooms and LSD and. not one single one of them were doing it. was doing it because of the money but. they all told us how they were doing it. because of the power of the drug and how. LSD has changed them and transformed. them and they really believe in the. power of the drug in terms of sort of. liberating and raising Consciousness in. the world and he was one of them so here. I was finally in front of a chemist who. spent you know years of his life making. LSD and then and he started crying. bawling and talking about how when I.

asked him do you think do you know other. active chemists out there. and he told me look. I do but I would never. give you that name because I would take. away from them what has been taken away. from me and he starts bawling talking. about what LSD meant for him what making. LSD meant for him and how he was. robbed of his life's meaning it's really. incredible I was not expecting so he. felt like his life's meaning was to. provide it to provide it and to allow. people to experience what he experienced.

at a young age did you have any. preconceived notions when you went into. that that were dissolved absolutely. again I think the financial component. most people that are involved in drug. trafficking or making of drugs do it. because of money. um and you know I don't use drugs never. have. um because I'm afraid of losing control. uh I have tried weed of course I tried. hash oh one of the episodes we have for.

the upcoming season is actually about. hash because it's the first drug I tried. when I was growing up in Portugal. um it's decriminalized Portugal has an. amazing success yeah it comes to drugs. well that's part of the problem with. illegality right when things are illegal. only criminals are selling them and then. law-abiding people. that's right are prohibited from taking. them that's right which is it's you know. Terence McKenna once famously said that.

Freedom uh includes the freedom to. explore your own Consciousness and If. you deny people that you're you're. denying them a basic human right yeah I. think he's right yeah I mean one of the. guys the people we interviewed was a. former. um a former military suffering from PTSD. a young kid. who had been in Afghanistan I believe. yes Afghanistan and he was part of the. bomb sniffing crew that goes I looking. for IEDs and the car that he was in.

actually there was an ID that exploded. under him but it was all protected so. nothing happened to him he suffered a. concussion and was out for a few minutes. and then was rescued but there was still. incoming shooting coming at him it was. like a whole situation and he was. suffering from PTSD and he was told us. he was incapable and he tried everything. all the medication that that was. available for him by the traditional. medical community and uh nothing was. working and he says he was having. trouble waking up in the morning he was.

suffering again from PTSD and then he. tried LSD and it changed he says it's. completely changed his life and he. started doing LSD through with a. therapist with somebody that sort of. ashamed Sean I guess Shaman who like. helps him and we filmed one of his first. sessions with person he had done it. before but was one of the first sort of. guided sessions and uh it was. fascinating to see and he's yeah he's. now in school and.

I'm not sure if his life is all. perfectly fine but he's doing much. better according to him but whose life. is perfectly fine yeah exactly yeah it's. life yeah but that is one of the best. therapeutic uses of it and did you speak. to anyone at Maps we did actually up in. Canada too we spent time in Vancouver as. well it's big there we spend time with. some people who are using it as therapy. um and it's yeah I I it was again. somebody who hasn't done a lot of work.

with psychedelics it was really really. incredible and I have since micro dosed. on mushrooms and uh and I really like it. yeah it's great. I'm a fan to me it does what I think I. thought people tell you weed does which. is it makes you sort of relax and laugh. that's what micro does oh micro dosing. does that way better than weed right. because weed for some people it gives. you that paranoia that they don't like.

at all yeah that's what happens to me. I've become I think it's if you are more. like me who want to always be in control. uh the weed doesn't work but Micro. dosing on mushrooms I've tried it three. times during the pandemic and my my. position on that is that you should lose. control that that feeling of wanting to. be in control is ridiculous because you. don't have any control anyway and that. you really should embrace this the. paranoia that comes with it because I. think what it is is expanding of your. awareness and just how insanely bizarre.

Life Is Life is you you can decide that. life is normal if you do the same thing. every day and you have a limited amount. of variability you know everything you. drive to work the same way may work with. the same people you do the same thing. come home to the same family and life. seems. seems okay and then you get really high. and you're like oh my God this is crazy. it's true but for somebody who already. lives in the uncomfortable side of life. constantly for my work I'm always in. places that usually people would would.

make them feel out of control sure what. I mean that's your psychedelics that is. my psychedelic experiences. I see your position I mean I see how. people are and I have very good friends. that don't like pot you know and I'm a. part evangelist it's changed me changed. who I am as a person it changed the way. I feel about things it changed the way I. treat people. change the way I look at life yeah yeah. I think it's a it's a tool and I had a. joke about it it's like any tool it's.

like a hammer you could build a house. with a hammer or you could hit yourself. in the dick if you're crazy and that's. the problem with anything and things are. open for abuse everything's open for. abuse gambling food everything sex. absolutely yeah people are you know we. have a problem with uh discipline and. with structure and with the an objective. analysis of life and um so when you add. things like marijuana or mushrooms or.

LSD or anything to those you could. there's also people that have legitimate. psychological and mental health problems. and for them it's very dangerous because. um I had Alex Berenson on I don't know. if you know who he is he's a uh he's to. be with the New York Times and he wrote. a book called uh tell your children and. it was about marijuana and the dangers. of marijuana and I had him on with Mike. Hart who's a doctor from Canada who. prescribes marijuana he's a. pro-marijuana doctor and I was actually.

more on berensen's side even though. um a marijuana Advocate I think it's for. me it's been very valuable but I also. know people that have lost their mind I. I 100 percent know people that used to. be okay and did too much pot and got. really really deep into it and lost. their grip of reality and became either. marijuana triggered schizophrenia or. they had schizophrenia already and but. it was manageable you know that it's. probably variable in its intensity and.

what happens and then their experiences. with marijuana push them over the edge. and I think that's a real possibility. yeah but I think you can apply that to a. lot of things yeah certainly with. alcohol certainly yeah with gambling so. there's a yeah it's but again that's a. yeah people have a hard time you know. keeping it together yeah and when. something like marijuana comes along but. that doesn't mean that it should be. illegal that means there should be some. real counseling and there should be.

places that people can go where they can. talk to someone and therapy and there's. there should be a way to make it legal I. 100 agree I mean one thing we know is. that the War on Drugs hasn't worked the. billions of dollars that the United. States has spent on the War on Drugs has. actually had the reverse effect and as. you know well the biggest drug epidemic. in America's history was created right. here in America by the pharmaceutical. companies yes well that's how I found. out about you from the Oxycontin Express.

that that was so eye-opening and when. you did that what what channel were you. guys on back then current TV was Al. Gore's television channel it was Al. Gore's that's hilarious. it was it was actually a really. interesting experiment so it was right. before YouTube started and basically. they were trying to the idea was. democratizing television it was giving. young kids out there a platform to go. out there and explore the world and come. back with these stories so that's how I. started what year was this this was.

2005 or six oh wow 2005 when was when I. started yeah. um so a long time ago and then YouTube. came around. but I really the show that I worked on. was called Vanguard and it was all these. young journalists who most of us had. just graduated but they basically gave. us cameras and in my case my husband at. the time was my boyfriend we both. applied they hired us both and then we. traveled all around the world he would.

film I would be on camera and then we'd. come back I'd edit he'd write we'd do. these stories together and one of the. stories we did was the prescription bill. story The Oxycontin Express which is how. we met because yeah tweeted about it. well I think your work really changed. the way people were aware of that. problem in Florida and they it changed. the laws because they didn't have. databases back then which was 100 on on. purpose yeah so you could go from yeah. you could go Doctor shopping you could. go from pill Mill to pill Mill or pain. clinic to pain clinic to buy.

prescription pills the amazing thing is. my husband is still reporting on this. his actually had a film on CNN that's. coming on HBO Max uh in April and it's. called America campaign so I don't know. do you remember the the twins that were. running American pain it was the biggest. uh pill Mill or um. prescription pain clinic in in South. Florida it's called American vein and it. was run run by these two twins who were. born they were born conjoined twins at. Birth and then they ran a steroid.

business and they got in trouble and. then they realized that actually they. could make a lot more money from selling. Oxycontin they could from selling. steroids so they opened this little. small strip mall pain clinic. and as you saw you know people started. coming in from all over the country and. buying and the doctors wouldn't even. look at them and they were prescribing. pills like it was Tic Tacs and this we. we found out about them because we were. reporting in Kentucky and we were the. sheriff who was you know overdoses all. around them people you know dying.

devastating his community and a lot of. the pill bottles had this name American. pain and we started we went down there. and we took out the camera and my. husband took out the camera and we the. first shot we got immediately within. minutes this big SUV came with two big. guys who were threatening us and started. yelling us and telling us to leave that. we weren't allowed to film. so we drove off and I'm driving and this. is actually in the film but I'm driving. and my husband's filming and they're. right behind us and we we decided to.

film this as the last thing we were. heading to the airport and we're driving. down 985 to head to the airport and they. start following us and then I realize I. have very little gas so I stopped at the. gas station and they stop right behind. us and they come out of the car and. these were big guys and the day before. we'd been watching The Sopranos so in my. mind they were coming out guns of. Blazing and they were going to kill us. both so I drove off I was so nervous and. I drove off and they continued following. us and I didn't put gas in the car so.

we're on 9.95 and we called 9-1-1 and. said hey we're being followed by this. car and explain the situation and then I. ran out of gas as we were filming and I. pulled over to the curb but they were so. sort of surprise shot they had no idea. confused about what was happening that. they just parked behind us and came out. of and they never came out of the car. and then the police arrived and then. they made up an excuse that they thought. I wasn't an old girlfriend or something. like that but we my husband took down. their license plates and found out their.

names and it was the George Brothers. Jeff and Chris George who were running. the biggest prescription or pill Mill in. America's history they were making I. think something like 40 million dollars. a year out of this small little pill. Mill paint you know strip mall clinic. and uh and it was incredible and then. and then a year later they were they're. now do they one of them just left prison. and the other one was still in prison so. those were the guys that were following. you the guys that owned the organization. yeah owned American pain the.

organization was just a strip mall. Clinic pain clinic with thousands of. patients that would come in and out and. you know tons of doctors writing. prescription pills and when we were. working at the time where we'd been. interviewing off the Record a D.A agent. who didn't want to go on the record that. we later found out was actually. investigating them and they had wire. Taps so in Darren's movie uh is he got. his hands on all the wiretaps so you. could hear them and part of it there's a.

part where they talk about us and our. film and how we were trying to look into. them so it all sort of came yeah that's. it South Florida yeah so South Florida. pain clinic and then they changed to a. new location a bigger location and. called it uh yeah that's it called it. American pain such as what a great name. by the way yeah and those are the two. brothers down there with the fish yep. that's the two brothers those are the. guys that were chasing you yeah wow well. they found a loop it's a crazy story so. they're in prison and Darren he sends.

them an email and says hey guys remember. that guy that you chased on I-95. I'm doing a film about you do you want. to be interviewed and they did it's a. great film what did they say did they. just spill the beans about what they did. and they talked a lot about sort of how. they grew up and why they did it. um. it's yeah I think it's interesting when. they had already gotten in trouble so. they had really nothing to lose at that. point but what wasn't what they were. doing legal no it was uh what they were.

so that is the difficulty and that's why. actually so little people so there. should have been a lot more people that. went to prison Unfortunately they didn't. so the government Gets You Through other. things racketeering charges. bribery mail fraud it's always these. other that's the you know the biggest I. think outrage about the whole opiate. crisis is that there have been almost. not no pharmaceutical executive that has. been gone to prison the pharmaceutical. companies are the ones that were.

actually making the big money right and. it's not just the sacklers of Purdue. it's also the generic companies that. were making even more. and uh and no one went nobody was. actually I mean nothing practically. happened to them no one did time in. prison and it's so sad when you find out. how many people lost their lives and how. many people even if they're alive their. lives are destroyed I mean Joe having. traveled and ex reported on this um the. opiate crisis for so long it's whole. communities that have been devastated.

it's it's horrible it's the biggest sort. of outrageous. um thing that has happened in America. and uh and it was made here again we can. blame others but it was made here and. because we allowed it to happen it's. just amazing the deception that was. involved too they they tried to claim. that they weren't addictive and. and they were just passing them out to. people and it's I mean I um I had I. talked before about this I had my nose. fixed I had a deviated septum and uh.

when I got out of the operating room. um I was uh kind of shocked that it. wasn't painful I was like this is fine. this is just a little mildly. uncomfortable and the doctor tried to. give me two different prescriptions for. opiates. and I was like I'm not going to use. those. um because I I had had knee surgery and. I I also didn't take pain pills but I. don't mind paying what I really don't. like is feeling stupid and when I took. um I think it was I don't remember it.

was Percocets or Vicodin I don't. remember but one of my first knee. surgeries they gave me one of those and. I took it and I remember being on my. couch when I lived in New York and uh. just sitting there watching TV like this. feeling so stupid and thinking oh my God. I'm never taking this [ __ ] again like. whatever this is doing to me first of. all I don't think it really stopped the. pain because I remember getting up. because I had to go to the bathroom and. I was it was like Liquid Fire was going. through my knee and I was like if it.

still [ __ ] hurts like this and I'm. dumb as [ __ ] like I am not taking these. anymore I know it's these with which. they were dispensed and are still being. dispensed to some degree my doctor was. trying to force me to take him he was. like he was like just you really should. take these like you're going to be in. pain I go well it's just a little pain. like is it worse than this right now he. goes it could be I'm like how could it. get worse why is it going to get worse. yeah like if it doesn't if it just is. mildly uncomfortable now and like so the. doctor was just like you should take. this and I was like why would I take.

that but I don't I wasn't I didn't. understand why. like I like couldn't I come back to you. if I'm in pain like if I'm not in pain. now why do you want it was this weird. conversation where it's like I don't. know if he was incentivized to try to. try to prescribe them if he felt like it. would be good for him I did I didn't. understand it like couldn't you just if. you wrote the prescriptions and I didn't. take it like what do you care but he. wanted me to take him yeah it was weird. so strange I mean that's what was.

happening with Oxycontin that's what was. happening later on we did another story. on fentanyl that was what was happening. with fentanyl too you had a company and. that we investigated one particular. company and I think it's the only CEO of. a company that he's now in in prison. actually for what he was doing but yeah. he was bribing essentially and he was. charged with bribing he was bribing. doctors and it was a quota and he was. basically telling them if you prescribe. more of our product which was fentanyl I. put a spray fentanyl called substance if.

you prescribe more we will give you more. money. they were he was paying them out and. taking them on trips luxurious trips. around the world and telling them not. only to prescribe this medication to. people who have headaches and back pain. and the medication that is made and FDA. approved only for breakthrough cancer. patients but yet you go to the doctor. and you say you have a headache and this. guy knows that he can get a kickback. from the company and so oh you should. take this this drug how much of a Kid.

Rock was it. uh it was significant it was in the. thousands of dollars some doctors got. hundreds of thousands of dollars and so. they were incentivized yeah there was a. big incentive to do it yeah and they. were also invited to these luxury. vacations and to go speaking fees what. they said is that they were paying them. for speaking fees which basically was. good bribes yeah I have a good friend. who used to be a pharmaceutical. representative and he explained to me. how it works that he would not just know. the doctor but he got to know he knew.

who the doctor's kids names were he. would show up at their baseball games. and he would give them gifts he would. take them out to dinners and it was all. about cultivating these relationships. and that it was all about like I'm your. friend and you know like and they wanted. to have this sort of weird cronyism. weird sort of relationship where even if. it wasn't illegal like clearly he was. influencing them to sell more pills. so crazy yeah.

yeah it's uh it's it's crazy and it's. crazy that it's still happening and I'm. it's just shocking that not more people. have gotten in trouble because what has. changed in Florida because they they did. change and they made a database yeah. there's a database right now which was. the biggest thing that didn't so babe. you could go to 10 doctors in one day. and get 150 pills from each doctor at. the end of the day you'd have 1500 bills. that no one would know about it and then. you'd grab those pills and go and sell. them to other places of the country. where you could get 20 20 times more for.

the same drug. um yeah so the databases and it's just. much harder I think there's one of the. things that I remember that we reported. on it that you shouldn't be able to. prescribe and dispense at the same. location because it's a conflict of. interest right if you have if you're. going to make money out of the sailing. selling of those pills you shouldn't it. shouldn't be at the same place where. you're prescribing them because then. there's an incentive for you to. prescribe because you're making money. from the sale of those bills. so that was happening in Florida as well.

and it's not allowed in a lot of other. states and then the horrible truth is. that a lot of those people became. addicted and then they had to get it on. the black market so then they were. getting fentanyl laced heroin yeah and. massive amount of overdoses yeah the. progression was Oxycontin and then it. was Fenton and then it was heroin and. then it became Fentanyl. yeah and it's still out there and yet. you know we talk about drugs. um one of the episodes we did this. season was about that's coming out soon.

is about MDMA and we also looked at sort. of the therapeutical side of MDMA but. one of the reasons why I became. interested in reporting on MDMA I grew. up with going to parties that there was. ecstasy all around me never tried it. knew some friends actually that tried it. and it didn't go so well for them they. still have like you were talking about. your friends with the weed they went off. the deep end a little bit oh they went. off the deep end with MDMA yeah one one. friend I know that used to go to these. parties and I knew her.

well and she. um yeah she went off the deep end I. haven't been in touch with her for a. while but it wasn't it wasn't a good it. doesn't. hit everybody the same way well not only. that I think a lot of people were doing. it almost every day. there's there was a lot of people that I. had heard of that were going to these. parties and Raves and they were just. they just couldn't wait to get back to. that state because that state of being. high on MDMA was so wonderful and so. lovely and just so you know everyone was.

like dancing and touching each other's. hands and chugging yeah yeah I love. drugs right it's called The Love drugs. it removes all of your inhibitions you. have zero inhibitions and you feel so. nice and feel so yeah you feel so. it's like. you don't worry about anything you just. filled with love you know it just it. just fills you with I guess dopamine and. serotonin right yeah. yeah and you're just overwhelmed by and. I was thinking like imagine if you could.

if this could be engineered where humans. could have an elevated level of this all. the time you would have the most. wonderful world. but probably nothing would get done. I'm sure there's a flip side to that so. at 100 there's a flip side to everything. but if there was a way to I was thinking. like it was a way to get to maintain. that state where you you had an elevated. level of uh serotonin like people would.

treat people so much differently yeah. I'm sure yeah there's a real again it. was one of those drugs that when we the. episode we did there's a lot of people. who are real Believers in MDMA and talk. about it how it's being used Pharmacy. therapeutically but obviously there's a. flip side to that too so the reason we. decided to investigate MDMA was because. I got an email from my son's school in. LA. and uh it was from a basically warning. parents that there had been a kid in a. school close by a high schooler who died.

thinking they were taking an ecstasy. pill and it was laced with fentanyl. really sad story but it got me thinking. so where does who's making next to see. where is it being made how is it being. made how's it getting here and then I. found out that the biggest I don't know. if you know this but the sort of the. center the best MDMA is actually coming. from the Netherlands in Europe and the. drug business there. um have sort of transformed the country. into what many people call the Narco. state so Journal there was a very high. profile crime journalist called Peter. DeVries who was killed as he was on the.

streets of Amsterdam as he was coming. out of work one day. lawyers that were representing this guy. that was a whistleblower for one of the. big drug leaders was also killed so. there's same things happening. um in in Holland right now and a lot of. it because of the drug trade and partly. because of MDMA there are videos of. torture chambers found the police did a. raid on a place that was being used as. torture chambers for right of all groups.

it's crazy we had heard about that who. who brought that up recently Jamie. someone brought that up about Moroccans. and like. yeah the Netherlands was it Peter Zion. was it I don't know I'm not sure it was. fairly recently yeah but yeah that's. terrifying and that's what you get when. things are illegal you get organized. crime I mean that was the Prohibition in. the United States the the propped up. organized crime in the United States so.

what happened in Portugal actually we. talked about how it was decriminalized. and because why it was such a success is. the rates of incarceration were. immediately down rates of AIDS went down. people are basically given an option. whether they want to go to rehab or if. they're caught with a certain amount. over a certain amount or if they want to. go to prison enough of course most. people just choose to go to rehab right. and you know the rates of addiction have. gone down they're safe places for people. to use drugs and it really has been an.

incredible success in Portugal and I. keep telling everyone who wants to. listen to me that we should emulate that. or at least try to because yes but I. think we already are so deep in this. problem in the United States is that the. cartels are bringing these drugs over. here in such high numbers and they. obviously have a very ruthless organized. crime business and even if it's. decriminalized they're still going to be. controlling the supply and demand it's. true and that happened with weed in uh. in California so an episode we did last.

season was about weed and how the black. market for weed the illegal weed Market. is actually three times bigger than the. legal Market even after it's been. legalized in California and that is. because the government has made it so. difficult for people to get a license. and so costly that they people just. decide to continue running their weed. business illegally but not only that but. they've also made it so that growing. marijuana even with the intent to. distribute is just a misdemeanor so if.

you are so there was a man named John. Norris who we had on the podcast who uh. wrote a book called hidden Wars and he. was a game warden and in California I. listened to that book it was really good. really interesting because his original. job was just to find people that you. know were violating fish and game laws. like catching too many fish or something. like that and they found a creek that. had dried up and had been diverted to. this illegal grow up on you know. national land and that these uh forests. yeah we filmed at some of them and it's.

crazy years out we we took the police. went in we went on a big raid with the. police they went and they were repelling. down helicopters we had to hike in and. it was hours and hours with all our gear. to try to get to this place it was in. the middle of nowhere and it was you. know fields and Fields of illegal weed. and it was all controlled by the cartel. we actually managed to speak to one of. them that was there as a work girl and. that's the really sad part of it that a. lot of them are just you know sure. they're getting paid nothing for yeah. and they're risking their lives and.

they're camping out there yeah yeah I. have a friend who works on a ranch in. California who discovered one of those. oh wow yeah they they stumbled upon. these pipes these plastic pipes these. guys had carried these in 15 20 miles on. their backs and and set this up and he. was like if they were doing something. legal I mean these guys are hard workers. yeah like you would say like this is a. guy I want to hire like how how much. Ingenuity how much hard work and. discipline to to carry these things so.

deeply and to set this all up but that's. the thing with all the black markets I. feel like I investigate that there is so. much entrepreneurship yeah uh you know. these they're really smart and again I. think that a lot of them if they were. given again not all but a lot of them if. they were given the legal route they. would have been amazing members of our. society yes a lot of them. people at the top though oh no no I mean. they're probably too far gone but the. people at the top wouldn't be at the Top. If they didn't have that's true people.

working and making them money yes those. are the people yeah and yeah that's the. real problem with poverty right. the real problem with poverty is like it. incentivizes people to do crime because. they're so desperate that the life sucks. so bad they're willing to do illegal. things it's just to try to get by and. and do something to better themselves. it's the inequality is the number one. reason why these black markets exist so. I always say that yeah but another. interesting thing going back to weed.

um a scene we filmed which still blows. my mind was we filmed and this was a guy. at the top he was running a many million. dollar worth uh illegal weed business. and he was running it or at least he was. selling it out of the. the top floor of a building in Downtown. L.A which was a garage sort of an open. garage and he was it was we were there. for I think two hours and there were. dozens of cars that were coming in and. buying bulks like huge bags of all.

illegal weed and he had his security. guys with guns and this was out in the. open on the top floor of this downtown. apartment high-rise it was insane. so crazy yeah I mean supply and demand. right there's always going to be someone. that comes along that's willing to take. a chance yeah and he he had a real. estate business apparently and he told. us that he was making a lot more money. from his illegal. Black Market Reed business than he was. from his real estate business is that. guy still out on the streets.

we spoke to him was a year and a half. ago and he was doing great yeah he's. doing great yeah and then they have to. figure out a way to launder that money. yeah oh yeah you know it's I I started. being I started asking now almost. everybody we interview because I'm. fascinated by that like what do you do. with your money right if you know we. interview one of the episodes we did. this season was about uh um cryptoscams. um and we spent time with these like. three 20-something year olds.

who made millions of dollars out of. crypto scams and these have you heard of. rug pulls rug poles a rug pull no. so they would put out these tokens they. would invent this token imagine we'd. call this token The Joe Rogan token and. uh they would get people and they would. start with a certain seed money that. they'd put in and then they would this. is in the D5 Market do you know anything. about crypto a little bit Yeah so. there's the defy Market which is more. unregulated. um market and where you have all these.

tokens which is not Bitcoin or ethereum. it's another it's a more unregulated and. you have these tokens and you can go and. buy these tokens and there's PR people. that are out there telling you that this. is the new hottest token and you're. gonna you can make money overnight so. you build you set out you launch this. Joe Rogan token you put some seed money. on it you start you get a PR person to. go out there and get celebrities uh you. know putting out social media posts. about how this new Joe Rogan token is. the [ __ ] and you should absolutely buy.

it and people start buying it and after. a few weeks they basically sell all. their shares and the value the price. goes down but they've what they made. they invested on like a hundred dollars. and they've made millions of dollars and. so people are left with nothing yeah. it's a rug pull and these kids told us. they were making you know millions and. millions of dollars. um and so yeah one of the biggest. questions I had so what are you using. how do you launder this money how you. because obviously and I mean they were.

flying private they rented a huge. mansion in Dubai they were there for the. crypto convention and uh and yeah they. were investing heavily in real estate. and in other businesses restaurants and. businesses like that it's really. fascinating. yeah that the crypto Market is very. bizarre it's you know this whole uh FTX. um thing with Sam bankman freed I'm just.

fascinated by that me too fascinated by. and I was reading a thing today about. the the new CEO who was hired to. untangle it and and find out what was. going on and his depictions he said it. was just 100 old-fashioned embezzlement. and that these people uh had none of the. fails fail-safes and none of the. protection that you would normally give. to people invest in their money and. they're just moving money around and. they were all on speed yeah and just. having sex with each other all together.

in this one house nine of them just wild. oh my God there's a documentary being. done we looked into it because I'm. fascinated about him yeah right now I. think he's [ __ ] yeah they're gonna. make an example out of him yeah and. what's crazy is that they were the. number two donor to the Democratic party. so by doing that they you know thought. they probably had some sort of. protection probably would have if that. other guy from uh coin was it uh binance.

the finance guy hadn't sank their. battleship. yeah it was crazy. no no I have a little bit of Bitcoin. very little but it's like I'm watching. go up I watch it go down like oh yeah. what do you do with that you know yeah. same here yeah we uh sold a lot of it or. um cashed out a lot of it to give to um. fight for the Forgotten they were it's a. a charity that uh one of the guests in. my podcast Justin Wren had created to.

build uh Wells for the pygmies in the. Congo so it went to good oh that's great. I just came from the Congo did you. really were you there doing a story on. ape trafficking and actually spend time. with the pygmies. um ape trafficking like apes are being. trafficked so people are selling it on. those chimpanzees they're illegally. being snatched baby gorillas go for tens. of thousands of dollars what do people. do with them they sell them to private.

zoos and people who just want to have. animals in their house says a lot of. them end up in the UAE. and it's uh yeah it's very very private. zoos people who have don't know what to. do with their money and they like exotic. animals and so they own. chimpanzees and even gorillas it's crazy. I remember when I had Mike Tyson on his. explain to me how he got into uh lions. lions and tigers tigers yeah and it was. basically I think was he saying they was. talking to a guy about cars and the guy.

was you know like what kind of cars he. wants to buy and the guy was like Hey. you want a lion really. Mike had Tigers yeah I remember yeah. which is just insane and apparently when. you have a tiger the tiger will listen. to you but no one else which is. terrifying so you have this enormous. predatory animal that you don't let kill. things and has these deep. genetic desires to catch things and kill.

them I mean that's literally what it's. like. taking I mean I mean it's taking a. creature that has a genetic propensity. for a very specific thing and denying. them that thing and then hoping that. they don't revert yeah I it's insane. it's everything that's wrong well it's. crazy do you know that there's more. tigers in captivity in Texas than there. are in all the wild of the world we did. a story on Tigers too Texas has the. number one population of tigers in.

captivity in private collections it's. crazy we visited that doc antel uh. what's that the doc Anthology remember. Jefferson have you did you watch Tiger. King I did so we were filming with uh we. talked to Joe Exotic and Doc antel do. you remember doc Antelope which one was. he you see the guy that ran the. saxophone sorry kind of yes is he the. guy. yeah that's the one so we were filming. that before Tiger King came out. um and actually Tiger King was great.

because a lot of people wanted to watch. our doc because Tycoon became so popular. but we did yeah we did an episode about. that and the idea it all started because. the idea that there are more tigers in. captivity in the United States in Texas. to be even more precise I didn't know. that it was just in Texas they have them. in Oklahoma but Texas has some pretty. wacky laws when it comes to the. ownership of animals there's a. in many ways it's a success story for. some animals like there's animals like. oryx that are um endangered in their.

natural habitat but are prevalent and. hunted in Texas it's very strange like I. went to a ranch in South Texas recently. to uh hunt a wild whitetail deer and an. animal called Neil guy which is an. Indian animal that evolved around Tigers. this is a crazy animal really bizarre. looking animal but um they're all over. the place they have so many of them here. and. um they they just have these enormous. ranches tens of thousands of acres and.

they have all these animals from other. countries there like you we were driving. around we saw let ways and. um uh oryx and all these like bizarre. Exotics that they're all over Texas and. the thing about them is there's no uh. hunting regulations in terms of like. Wildlife Conservation we'll put limits. and tag limits on animals because. they're controlling the population and. they want to make sure that the. populations are healthy.

and so like if you're in an area like. say if you want to hunt mule deer in a. very protected specific area there's. thousands of people apply for tax but a. very limited number of people get them. and there's a very specific area you can. hunt in and this is all done and that. money all goes to Wildlife Conservation. it all guns it goes to park rangers and. protecting habitat and it's a very. successful and really well organized and. and well-funded uh plan. in Texas there's none of that it's.

private property so you can hunt these. animals 365 days a year wow and they're. owned by the people on the property but. again in many ways it's a success story. because by giving these animals value. they have an incentive to keep their. populations strong and healthy and so. you have this enormous population of. these exotic animals here right which is. what they're trying to do in places like. the Congo and Rwanda whether you can. still find gorillas for example is. giving them value so instead of hunting.

them there is money going to the people. who are currently hunting them hopefully. the pygmies was an example of that it. was really sort of sad because they we. spent time filming with them and. they are involved in the hunting of. gorillas and chimpanzees and their story. in particular I mean they are from a lot. of these protected parks and since the. parks became protected the government is. telling them that they can't live.

anymore there but this is their life. this is what their you know generations. and generations before them this is what. they did and it's not as if they can go. to the cities and find a job either so. there's obviously an enormous incentive. for them to hunt illegally and kill and. sell some of these endangered animals so. I think you know one of the things that. you see that are examples of success are. when you make them profitable for them. to be alive so having tourists come in. having you know safe conditions for.

tourists to come in and cease and spend. time with these tiger with these animals. going and seeing the gorillas was one of. the most incredible experiences of my. life I recommend it to anyone if you're. remotely interested in traveling to. Rwanda or Congo it was incredible so you. saw them in the wild in the wild yeah so. you hike and you don't know exactly. where they are you go we went with Park. Rangers we left at like 6 a.m in the. morning they knew where they had been. the day before but in the meantime about. 16 hours have passed and they have no.

idea where they are they're not tracking. them with trackers or anything so then. we start. hiking up this mountain and these are. lowland gorillas Eastern gorillas. they're an endangered species beautiful. animals and uh we're tracking them and. then they start seeing they start from. the place where they had seen them the. day before and then they sort of follow. their trace and they you know see where. they have. pooped and where where they have eaten. broken branches and it was I don't know. three hours with all our heavy equipment.

tracking them and trying to see until we. finally there's a moment that for us is. completely exhilarating after you're hot. and you're bitten by mosquitoes and. you're exhausted and we're sure maybe. we're not maybe we're going to be the. only people who are not going to see. gorillas and finally we get to this. corner and this place and this uh the. park ranger says oh a completely. nonchalantly he says oh it's right here. and we what and right behind a bush. there's a gigantic Silverback Mill.

gorilla and a family the female and a. bunch of little kid babies including a. little baby that was born two weeks. before and we were the first ones to. ever film the little baby and it was a. yeah my mother carrying the baby around. and then there was that one moment we. were all together and you have to sort. of be quiet. obviously you don't want to start. yelling next to gorillas because you can. scare them. um but it's yeah it's we were from here. to you me to you wow right now let's. this how close we were to the girls how. dangerous they had never suffered any.

attacks by the gorillas the girls have. sort of gotten used to having people. around them you can't there's obviously. rules you can't start jumping in front. of them or you shouldn't try to touch. them and it depends on there's different. um sort of responses that you should. have for different Gorillas with the. lowland gorillas. um with I can't remember I think with. the lowland gorillas you actually have. to be. um you can look them in the eye there's. the other gorillas that are in Rwanda. that you shouldn't look them in the eye.

that you have to look down and I. actually had experienced that before as. well so I'm incredibly privileged that. I've been I've seen gorillas twice but. with these gorillas you're actually. supposed to look them on the eye I think. that's right but yeah it's really it was. an amazing experience but you obviously. you're not supposed to go up to them and. touch them or and as we were filming our. producer was sort of behind me and he. was a little bit on this open Trail or. this patch that was. um you know there the gorillas had gone. through so it was kind of no brush there.

and uh and suddenly one of the big girls. that he we had an idea was there came. behind him and was fast and Fast. approaching and he had to like jump out. of his place and it was a really close. encounter but he wasn't coming to attack. him or anything he was just trying to. pass through but they're massive animals. massive. um so but yeah they have never suffered. any attacks and it's really an. spectacular there's a video that I saw. of these uh men that are in this gorilla.

habitat and this gorilla walks through. and grabs one of the men and just drags. him like you would pick up a laptop bag. and just move it a little bit it just. almost like just letting them know okay. man I just drag you a little bit just to. let you know we all joked that my. producer this is it oh yeah so this. gorilla walks out I mean it's this is. Silverback yeah. the size I know it's so he grabs this. man by the way and just drags him it's a. park ranger yeah and just lets him go. and look at look at his face like oh.

okay okay. I mean you imagine the feeling of one of. those things grabbing a hold of your leg. and just pulling you like you weigh. nothing it's it's saying yeah we all. sent around this video joking that our. producers called Paul and he was the one. that got the clothing counter everything. that was next time. um so so people are taking those. gorillas and stealing them stealing them. and for example chimpanzees are super. protective as our gorillas their.

families and their kids and uh and so. what happens is that a lot of times you. have to kill the mother in order to be. able to take the baby so it's when. you're stealing one it's not just one. sometimes it's the whole family that. dies so that you can take the baby with. you but these chimps can go for tens of. thousands of dollars and so there's a. real incentive there and we ended up. speaking with a guy. who bought the chimps from the hunters. and then was selling them was sort of a. middleman and was telling us how he. carries them how he transports them all. of it it's really horrible how much of a.

demand is there for these things. apparently a gigantic demand. and there's videos out there that you. can see on Instagram and YouTube with. people a little less now but just a few. but it still exists but a few years ago. um people posting photos of them with. their private gorillas and chimpanzees. that we just bought and a lot of it is. UAE you were saying a lot of it is UAE. yeah right now the trade is a lot of it. is UAE and yeah and they have private.

zoos did you visit any of these private. zoos we tried we got denied access. um. we didn't get a visa to go to Dubai. unfortunately to film it we wanted to. but we didn't get it so in Dubai they. have these parts we know of a few of. them that we heard and we wanted to go. visit and ask questions and see continue. our investigation to find if any of them. had come from the Congo and these who. are these people that have these private. zoos just really really wealthy people. some some are not even public too so.

it's private so it's just for them and. their friends there are others that have. Parks you know a little bit like Doc. anthal safari park where people can come. and pay and visit the wild animals. um. yeah all sorts and some people like to. post it on Instagram and or for people. pay to go and take selfies with these. animals which I'm still I cannot believe. that this is still a thing that happens. today people pay and want to take. selfies with wild animals very sad. because it's incentivizing the trade is.

what it's doing had you heard anything. when you were in the Congo about those. uh extraordinarily large chimps the the. Bondo Apes no the Bondo yeah there's um. there's like a subspecies of chimpanzee. that's enormous they're much larger and. the the locals have two categories that. they. they call the smaller chimps. tree beaters because they're up in the. trees like and the the bottom ones they. call line killers and they nest on the.

ground like gorillas and they're huge oh. wow yeah there's a I think he's from. Switzerland a wildlife photographer. named Carl Arman and he was one of the. first people to to definitely document. these things because there had been old. photos from like the 1920s these black. and white photos of these ones that they. had killed that were huge and there's. one famous photo of these two men. that are at a you see that's one of them. oh wow but that's not even the biggest.

one there's one that one up there that. one look at the size of that thing wow. that does not look like a chimp I know. it's a normal that one they killed they. call it the Billy ape the Bondo ape and. they have a Crest on their skull like uh. like a gorilla does and so initially. they thought they were a hybrid that. that one is one of them that was walking. upright that photo uh to the left of. that Jamie the one down down below that. right there that one that one.

um was uh a photo that they took with a. camera trap so like it walked by upright. and they saw this uh one walk across the. road and they said it's six feet tall a. six foot tall chimpanzee that was you. know hundreds and hundreds of pounds. real you know and they endangered. well they don't know how many of them. there are and there was a lot of. speculation as to whether or not they. even existed but now they have bones. they have tissue they have they know.

it's a chimpanzee and they have video of. these things and. they're just they're not they have video. of one of them eating a Jaguar no way. yeah or excuse me a leopard that is. because it's in Africa yeah yeah so they. don't know if it killed it or if they. found it dead and they were eating it. but wow but they call them lion Killers. that's the but can you imagine a. chimpanzee that's six foot tall you know. 400 pounds super aggressive can't they. can be chimpanzees in general can be. super aggressive they're like us yeah.

yeah they're closest to us which is. really fascinating because then you have. the bonobos yeah that are also really. close to liberated to us and they're all. about sex yeah there's peace and love. and they only exist in the Congo yeah I. didn't know they were all about sex. though well they have so much sex with. each other they like have sex to solve. uh problems to to resolve issues. they're like Jimson MDMA yeah something. like that I mean I wonder what's. different about them it's really. interesting because they're like the. peaceful chimps but the the only the.

mother will not have sex with her son. that's it the the father will have sex. with the daughters the father of sex. with the sons the sons will have sex. with the brothers and sisters they have. sex with each other but they the mother. will not have sex with their sons which. is very fascinating really they have. rules like get out of here kid I didn't. know that yeah yeah yeah Apes it's uh it. was really fascinating but I would think. that that animal in specific you were a. super wealthy individual and you wanted. to do one of those giant chimps for your.

collection yeah because the the rare. they are the more you think you're yeah. special because you own this very rare. animal so is it mostly uh chimps and. gorillas or do is is it orangutans and. monkeys as well our investigation was. into the great apes yeah so Champs. gorillas bonobos. um and they are in high demand and again. they go for hundreds of thousands of. dollars and yeah I think we tend to. usually point the finger at the hunters. and the middlemen.

um the people that are catching these. and killing but I think the finger. should always be pointed at where the. demand comes from and who are the people. because those are the that you know it's. to me I. do not understand somebody who just. wants to have a wild animal that came. from the wild and then their backyard. but I do understand why a pygmy or a. poor guy without any other opportunities. in the Congo when given the chance to. bring money for their families they. would do so of course yeah I mean no.

doubt but it's just. it's such a disturbing part of human. nature that they would be willing to do. that especially to an animal that they. know is so endangered that they'd want. to have a giant Park in their backyard. where they keep these things it's I. don't understand it but it's the fact. that it exists here in the US too again. we can say it's all happening in places. like the UAE and China but we have these. Safari parks and things. um. what about public zoos yeah I mean I I.

talked yesterday on the podcast about. going to a zoo once and. was the saddest thing where this monkey. was wailing just screaming like like and. I was like oh my God this is like going. to a prison and there's someone alone in. their cell just screaming it's because. there's this tiny little cage is about. the size of this room and you have this. poor monkey that's just trapped in there. horrible yeah yeah it's horrible just. regular zoos are [ __ ] yeah they're. yeah I'm not a big fan either we went to. a few like sanctuaries for chimpanzees.

on Apes in the Congo and it was we had. the chance of spending time with some. baby gyms and they're adorable but one. of the things and they'll jump they. basically Jam they jumped on me on my. whole crew they were hugging us. um so they're really sweet so you. understand why people maybe would think. that oh they really like to spend time. with human beings they would love to be. our pets but that's just not the case. especially when they get older they get. very dangerous yeah and then they kill.

them or yeah sell them so. um this this market like how many people. are out there that have the means to do. this that's what's bizarre like that. there was actually I can imagine if like. one really rich guy wanted to do that. but the fact that it's an actual Market. oh it is um I think that once you know. once you have your big house once you. have your exotic cars and you're. thinking what else you can get I think. that's the case for a lot of them and. unfortunately again the idea that you're.

taking all these photos and posting them. on social media I think unfortunately. social media's had a terrible negative. effect on this. um because people think it's fun to take. photos with all sorts of exotic animals. and then. they think you know once you have money. oh I'm going to own this I'm going to. buy this and put it in a cage and when. my friends come over they're going to be. impressed by the fact that I own this. tiger or this lion or this. gorilla but I would imagine be very. dangerous for you to be exposing that. um it always is with all the stories we.

do there's always a component of a lot. of people there that don't want us to do. those stories for sure. um. yeah I mean gaining access to these. worlds is the hardest part of my job do. you worry about coming on shows like. this that you're going to become famous. like have you been spotted as anybody. ever said oh you're that lady from the. TV show all the time yeah yeah it. happens a lot particularly in airports. for some reason I think they associated. I'm huge in the Congo.

so in airports no but it actually it's. funny that you say that because it has. helped me in some way where I get a lot. of messages from people who want to be. on the show so they send me videos of. their guns and their drugs boy they are. involved oh boy it is messed up and go. hey I'm a contact Mariana no absolutely. yeah I want to be on your show yeah or. you have no idea but then there's also. the people that say uh you should do a. story about you know all the conspiracy. theories that exist all there out there.

or people who tell me like I have a. story to tell and I share my my emails. like okay great and it's really and then. it's you know it's like one of The Crazy. Ones oh it's uh the government and the. CIA is after me and they're checking me. out and all of our information is uh. which actually is true. entirely crazy but uh but I think people. who have you know not all there and uh. that's the problem with conspiracies is. so many of them are real yeah I know I. know but I think I was we started this.

conversation with this story about guns. that is the one story that whenever I do. anything about guns I get a lot of hate. a lot I'm sure and it's threats and it's. people saying you know really mean and. evil things yeah and uh have you seen. the video there's a video that's going. around now it was shared on Twitter a. lot yesterday it was. um some people in the 1970s when they. started making laws about drinking and. driving that you couldn't drink while. you were driving and these people like.

they're going to turn this into. Communists you know like these people. were defending like drinking and driving. yeah that you have come on work 12 hours. I want to have a few beers and drive. home and it's like I remember the same. thing happened uh when when they see if. you can find that I don't know I wasn't. gonna pull it up earlier when you guys. are talking about something else that's. so great have you seen it no I haven't. it's like early Trump supporters yeah. it's like people that oh that's don't. know like where Q Anon comes from and. where you know distrust of the. government comes from these. unsophisticated people.

no worries. um it's uh it's pretty crazy because. you're like oh those people they exist. right now like this is 50 years ago but. these people are alive and well and here. is viewed by some as downright. undemocratic it's kind of getting common. is when a fella can't put in A Hard. Day's Work put in 11 12 hours a day and. then getting your truck and at least. rang one or two beers they're making it. laws where you can't drink when you want. to you can't you have to wear a seat.

belt when you're driving. of course I'm gonna become this country. incredible pretty soon gonna be a. communist country making laws you got to. wear seat belts it is incredible it's. pretty funny yeah it is incredible. there's a lot of those people yeah. they're always going to exist always. they've always existed in the past and. you know Trump [ __ ] he's their King. he found like a population that was like. yes I don't care what he does he's our.

guy he's our guy yeah I know it's I get. a lot of that too I get a lot of people. say I used to love your show but now I. saw your gun story and now I realize. that it's all fabricated and it's all. you pay actor oh that's one I get all. the time is people thinking that my show. is fake because it looks really. beautiful sure because we have an. incredible cinematography team behind us. who's actually a lot of the people that. work on the Bourdain show on Parthenon. before so they're incredible it's. National Geographic so it has to look. good so yeah but I always say my life.

would be so much easier if I could just. script this and yeah and pay people to. do this unfortunately that's not how it. goes no you're 100 legit uh and there. are people that do shows like that where. they do have fabricated stuff. unfortunately there's a lot of nonsense. out there yeah not I mean the amount of. time the amount of trips that I've done. Halfway Around the World to wait for. people that don't show up or the amount. of back alley meetings that I've had. with people trying to convince them to. be on camera and eventually they say no. even disguise so there's yeah there's.

just an incredible amount of work have. there been subjects that you tried to. investigate but you couldn't get access. and you couldn't couldn't do a story on. uh yes. um and it doesn't mean that we're not. going to I'm still trying a lot of them. take you know months sometimes even. years to investigate and then we only. start you know once we get access then. we like what subjects. uh LSD was one of them finding a chemist. and I think that at the end the whole. premise of the show became me trying to.

find a camera's willing to go on camera. and that at the end actually never. happened we found a former campus but. not an active chemist but I think the. show is equally powerful with or without. but that took months months and I think. we started investigating even the season. before and we were wondering if this was. something we should do because obviously. the access wasn't there we thought if we. gave it more time uh there would be more. access there's another show another. episode we really want to do on dirty. bombs dirty bombs. um and we started looking into it and we. had a team that traveled to a country I.

can't tell you which country is yet. because I'm hoping we can go back and if. I'm afraid if they hear it then they're. not going to let us in but it's a. country and we were hoping we could get. access and uh and then everything failed. and then they said we were being watched. by the government so they had to leave. but that's still an episode I want to do. it so the government is protecting dirty. bombings yeah it's radioactive material. that can be be transformed into. radioactive into dirty bombs it's. actually explain a dirty bomb to people. that don't it's a rate it's one for. example. um Chernobyl the massive nuclear.

explosion that happened. um accidents that happen in Ukraine. um there was there's a lot of. radioactive material still left there. and it's really difficult. um you know you can't there's sort of. security perimeters around it you can. still get really sick if you go in there. but there's actually still people giving. tourists on Underground. Tour black market tour where you can go. and visit Chernobyl so there is a way in. so there it is actually pretty easy to.

get your hands on radioactive material. and then transform it into dirty bombs. which are really powerful bombs that. have enormous devastating impact on a. lot of people. um and so there's a real fear out there. that you know groups like Isis are. getting their hands or we're getting. their hands on on radioactive materials. and making dirty bombs. and we started looking into it and we. still haven't been able to get the. access so it's a bomb that sprays this. radioactive material yeah it's it's a.

radioactive bomb yeah and the idea is. that it's just going to make a huge. population sick with radiation poisoning. yeah yeah and it's very very dangerous. has that ever been implemented has. anyone ever detonated a dirty bomb. that's a very good question uh I mean. the United States die designated a bunch. of nuclear weapons during the second. world war sure but I mean a dirty bomb. but a dirty bomb I don't think so no. it's theoretical it's still theoretical. but it's available it's out there and. there I know that their investigations.

and that there's a belief that people. that already that they're already in the. wrong hands. but again it's a subject that I think we. need to investigate a lot more before I. can comfortably talk about it how many. episodes did you do this season we do 10. episodes we did eight the first season. but then people really liked it so we. started doing 10 each season and it's. it's a lot a lot of work I always say. it's the hardest show on television. because you're trying to get access. um to these very secretive organizations. we did one on bikes motorcycle gangs.

um or clubs as they like to be called. the ATF calls number gangs and getting. access to the one percenters was also. crazy hard and basically we were trying. to figure out where their money you know. they're involved in drug in the drug. business and we're trying to figure out. how involved are they and if they're. involved in people who would be willing. to share that with us and eventually we. found somebody but we got to spend time. with the with a. um with a bunch of different groups the. vagos in LA and the the.

um the Sons of Silence in up and they. were in what's the name of the town that. hosts I finally forgot that host the. biggest motorcycle rally Sturgis Sturgis. yeah we were there at the peak of coven. uh it was in 2020. we were filming in. August at the peak of Turkish Sturgis of. covet and there was a bunch of people. with Trump flags and kova did not exist. at Sturgis it was it was such a for you. know I'd just come it was like the.

second episode we did and coming from La. very liberal having heard everything. about covid and I mean we were we were. filming our show from the we spent two. months not filming and then in June uh. we started filming so we were very fast. at when we were traveling all around the. world and we figured out a way to make. it work but suddenly arriving in Sturgis. are not one single person is wearing a. mask and there's all these bars and. people partying and. um it was wild it was really wild but. yeah and then we spent time at the sun's.

Sons of Silence uh Camp it was really. fascinating and what what's their. philosophy like what are these a lot of. these so it's it's really interesting. actually they are the only it's the only. sort of Outlaw group that was born in. America that was mates made in America. so unlike the mafia that comes from. Italy right or the cartel it's the only. group Outlaw group that is completely. 100 American and it started with a lot. of vets from the Vietnam War who uh. basically felt like they lost a sense of.

identity and Community once the war. ended and they came back and they. started meeting and then they created. these motorcycle groups and they call. themselves The One percenters because. they say that the rest of the clubs the. 99 are above the law which means that. they consider themselves to be Outlaws. and uh you know there have been many. cases out there we interviewed an ATF. agent who spent who's been involved in. some of the craziest. largest undercover operations in. America's history where he was able to.

infiltrate a couple of these groups and. really fascinating stuff I mean they he. he got patched so he got a patch and. which takes years to get but they. believed him he he went through. um. poligraphy tests. um how do you call them holograph test. yes too and uh and he passed them which. is crazy well they don't work. but I but then he was lucky but yeah. polygraph tests you could trick them. yeah well he did he did trick them but. the guy on the other side giving him the.

test had like a gun and things could. have gone South really fast if he had. suspected that he was not who he said he. was and um so we we filmed with him and. um and then eventually we got somebody. from one of the groups telling us how it. all goes down. of the drugs and how they make their. money that's the that's sons of anaker. right the the classic thing is these. people that infiltrate and then become. one of them did you watch that show no. no I didn't but I've heard of it yeah.

there's always one episode I liked it a. lot yeah that's great but that is uh. that's did you ever read uh Hunter S. Thompson's book Hells Angels I didn't. but it's a great book it's it's that was. really the book that kind of made him. and it was uh I mean the people that. were in the Hell's Angels were very. upset because. Hunter has this way of writing or had. this way of writing where it's like you. couldn't really there was a lot of. fiction in mixed in there's a lot of. like craziness mixed in with the reality.

of it and that you know as Gonzo. journalism this thing that he sort of. coined but that was all about those guys. that had got back from Vietnam and they. just felt like Society was [ __ ] and. they didn't want to be a part they just. wanted to be free and ride motorcycles. and they were I'm sure a lot of them had. PTSD and all [ __ ] up from their. experiences and just feeling that they. were used by the government and. they wanted to be Outlaws yeah we went. to the funeral of one of them we filmed.

in L.A. um and it was the most incredible it was. a Mongols funeral and it was hundreds. and hundreds of bikers that showed up to. pay their respect and then they. basically take over a whole freeway in. La it's hundreds of bikes that follow uh. the cars and it's incredible spectacle. and then we were with the head of the. ATF unit that sort of investigates them. so he's recognizable for them and we got. a lot of middle fingers and people that.

weren't happy that we were there yeah of. course yeah yes it's a good one. um what else did you cover this season. uh uh what else we have a really we went. to Ukraine really yeah one of the best. episodes I think this season is about uh. it's coming out this month actually. um at the first year anniversary of the. war in Ukraine. um but we went to Ukraine yeah we did a. story it was the first story about. surrogacy. um so the Ukraine has become a center. for surrogacy around the world. um surrogate pregnancies yeah so people.

can get pregnant and they basically hire. a woman to carry their baby a hired womb. and it's legal in the United States but. it will cost you between 150 to 200 000. so it's cost prohibitive for a lot of. people so they've turned to places like. Ukraine it's not legal it's actually. illegal in the majority of countries but. it's legal in Ukraine and uh and it's. they have a strong commercial surrogacy. program there and a safe one before the. war but what happened was when the war. broke out there's a lot of actually. American babies that are in Ukrainian.

wombs and that were stuck in the war um. so we were managed to actually follow a. couple from from the Bay Area as they. head into Ukraine and the funny thing. about the whole story it was I it was. the first time I just gotten covert for. the first time. um and uh it was and the baby was about. to be born in Ukraine and we knew he. wanted to be there when the baby was. born because we were following these. parents as they were meeting their baby. and uh and it was a crazy experience of. having to be at home for five days and.

sort of waiting and hoping that baby. wouldn't be born and then uh five days I. finished my five day quarantine and I. was able to get on a plane and go. straight and because I was I got there. late a few days later than my team my. team was all there already I I've. arrived in Poland. um and then I basically drove straight. to Ukraine my bag was lost and I went in. with nothing but went into Ukraine and. eventually met this this couple and the. organizations an American organization. that's helping them uh project Dynamo. and uh and then film them as they go to.

the hospital and meet the surrogate. mother for the first time and then holds. their baby and meets their baby for the. first time and it was one of the most. emotional moments we've ever filmed on. traffic because you know the show is all. about these products that are harmful or. sometimes even deadly and dangerous and. here we were seeing a something that was. bringing a lot of love and hope and joy. and it was a really beautiful moment and. then it was them trying to get the baby. out of this war zone in time because the.

paperwork and having to deal with. bureaucracy even in moments like that so. it was crazy and then after that we. basically because the show's about black. markets we went to Kenya and uh what. happens is when it becomes people like. you said they have to find they're going. to find a way to do what they want to do. in this case surrogacy and the people. that can't afford it here and then it. became too dangerous to do it in Ukraine. people are finding new places to do it. and in Kenya it's not legal it's sort of. a gray area and it's definitely very.

shady there and we spent time filming. you know women who are promised all this. money to carry babies on them they give. birth and then they never see a son and. their families never know about it. because they've been hiding they're sort. of imprisoned in these houses for months. while they're pregnant and they're. carrying American babies it's such a. strange thing it's it's common in La I. have some friends that are a gay couple. that um hired a woman to get pregnant. with their I think they basically like.

the the couple mixed their sperm. together so they wouldn't know whose. sperm it was that impregnated the woman. and then. um they went through the whole thing and. then she decided to keep the baby. yeah no yeah. is that allowed oh yes it is. I mean I thought they were yeah I don't. know but they didn't get the baby and so. they they had to go through it again and. they went through it a second time and. they got there and then they got a baby. yeah it's really it's really sad because. there is a need out there for it it's.

just that with everything it's exploited. it's a very strange situation yeah it's. very it's very strange because this. person has this life growing in their. body and they become deeply attached to. it then they have to give it to someone. and this woman was like I can't I can't. do this I'm keeping the baby I don't. know what she did and in her case it was. probably her egg right so she was I. believe something she yeah because it's. gay couple yeah and maybe that's why she. was allowed to do it I don't know what I. don't know if they fought her I don't.

know maybe they just said okay I don't. know but they spent all that money like. taking care of her and paying her and. the whole deal yeah. yeah it was crazy but the whole. experience in Ukraine was really yeah. insane and then being there so much sort. of depression and sadness at the same. time with this couple was really special. what other things did you cover what are. the things we cover uh we this week's. episode actually that airs tomorrow is. about oil. um so we spent time in Nigeria in the.

Niger Delta it's one of the biggest oil. producers in the world and then we went. to Lebanon and spent time with Hezbollah. really. um how do you get connected as well so. essentially the episode was about how. oil is financing terrorist groups or. groups that the US considers to be. terrorist organizations like Hezbollah. and uh so first we went to Nigeria and. spent time and there's Boko Haram you. know Boko Haram they kidnapped the 200. school children a few years back they.

and their recently pledged allegiance to. Isis. and they're very very scary group that. has done very horrific things up in the. north of the country but what we heard. is that they're getting their oil a lot. of their oil from the south of the. country which is the biggest. well-producing region so insane uh it's. I've had been there before but it's the. most insane place in the world this the. Niger Delta it's basically it's swamps. that are filled with oil that you know. you've got Exxon Mobil and shell and all. these corporations that have been there.

taking the oil for decades and people. living in absolute poverty and at one. point they decided you know [ __ ] this. they're taking they're they're getting. wealthy out of our oil so they started. stealing the oil so there's estimates. that anywhere between 30 to 90 percent. of the oil that comes from Nigeria is. actually or that that is produced in. Nigeria is actually stolen which is. insane so we went to one of these sites. it took us. days and days of months and months of. trying to get access and then days of. going in Nigeria to different places and.

getting nose nose nose and then. eventually we've met with a king. um who used to be a militant himself but. when the peace deal happened they gave. them the ceremonial post of being a king. so we visited the king at his Palace and. it was a proper Palace and we asked for. his permission to film in his land and. once we got that permission we were able. to film one of these huge sites where. they're bunkering they're stealing the. oil and the site that is covered the. floor is covered with oil it's black. black and then you see these areas where. they start refining the oil that has.

been stolen from the pipes and uh and. there's smoke and all the trees that. used to be green because these are. swamps are all black it's straight out. of a sort of a your vision of Hell. everything is burned in black and you've. got hundreds of people working women who. carry the huge bags with the refined oil. with a diesel this is it right here yeah. this is it it's a photo up there Jamie. the one at the top the big one look at. that yeah you see so that's where so.

they're that's where they're refining. the oil the big oh my God it is. and. they don't have a lot of them are. Barefoot and they're walking through to. this guy has boots but a lot of them. that we saw were Barefoot particularly. the women. and they're you know covered in oil what. kind of Health consequences are these. people facing because of this yeah it's. it's it's really and it speaks to the. desperation you know they're making like.

less than a dollar a day by doing this. it's really really sad so we arrive at. this location. and we've finally been given permission. to film and it's hundreds of people and. we started filming and then suddenly we. see a group of people coming our way and. yelling and. picking up buckets of hot oil and. threatening to throw it at my cameraman. Josh it was a really really scary moment. we captured it on camera and one and we. were yelling back please don't don't and. the idea was that they thought we were. oil we were white people coming from an.

oil corporation that were trying to shut. down their operation which would mean. that they wouldn't have that one dollar. a day to bring back to their family. so I had to spend a lot of time showing. them my press pass telling them that I'm. a journalist I promise I'm not I'm not. here as an oil Corporation I'm a. journalist and eventually sort of calmed. down and we were able to film but it was. a crazy crazy experience when you're in. those situations is there a cell service. where you could pull up a video of your. show yeah usually I usually do.

in that case there was actually. self-service cell service and I showed. Instagram I showed you see I'm a. journalist but also what I get a lot is. I mean yeah you could have made that up. which is true I could have made this up. but yeah I always carry a press pass. that says National Geographic and it has. my name with me as well in some. countries that actually helps more than. than whatever is online. um so it was it was definitely one of. the sort of most dangerous moments. because he was ready to throw hot oil at. us. um but things calmed down we were able. to film it and then yeah and then a week.

later we're on the border between Syria. and Lebanon with a with a group that. with Hezbollah and then with a group. that works with Hezbollah and seeing. them bringing in. um unsanctioned oil that was coming from. Iran and that is basically providing. jobs and money and financial. help to Hezbollah how did they steal the. oil and they didn't steal it was given. to them by Iran okay so right so it's. sanctioned oil so it's their sanctions.

U.S sanctions so they're not supposed to. be selling their oil and uh to Lebanon. but Hezbollah did this whole sort of PR. campaign where they went they had these. huge Iranian tankers with oil and they. paraded the oil down the streets of. Lebanon and it was basically a big [ __ ]. you to the United States here's what. we're doing and we ended up interviewing. and and Hezbollah operative and he told. us how. what they are not telling us that this. was not the first shipment and they've. been getting shipments for a long time.

and that Hezbollah is making millions of. dollars out of the Iranian oil and. um you know when I asked him so why if. if I know it means the U.S government. probably knows this is happening why. aren't they doing more and he said well. you have you have Syria you have Iran. and you have Hezbollah and they would be. it wouldn't be smart for the U.S to get. involved when there's this much power. and. um you know it could it could be the. start of the third world war which is. what he told told us but yeah it was it. was uh it was it was insane but you're.

saying that 30 to 90 percent of this oil. that's in Nigeria in Nigeria was stolen. stolen and then a part of it ends up. with Boko Haram which is a terrorist. organization in Africa and then how are. they stealing the oil with that that's. those that's all stolen oil the fields. how's it getting there they basically. make holes they are able to take the oil. directly from the pipes the legitimate. pipes that exist there for Max and. mobile and shell and other corporations. and they're able to take the oil out.

it's what's called bunkering it's the. stealing of oil and then they refine it. there and then they put it in these. gigantic plastic bags and the women. usually carry these plastic bags on. their backs a heavy dangerous hot oil. diesel in this case once it's refined. and then they put them in cars and they. smuggle them and sell them to everything. from gas stations to terrorist. organizations wow. yeah it's uh it's it's an interesting. thing because I think we all think of. when you think of terrorist.

organizations you think of um you know. how are they getting their guns uh how. are they recruiting people but you don't. think about the number one thing that. they actually need is oil. that's what they need for everything and. then we were actually able we went to a. center where they were rehabilitating. former Boko Haram militants and spent. time with them and they told us yeah. it's the number one thing that we're. always trying to get is oil and how they. were planning on uh getting into an. American plane and do you know their. number one enemy is the United States.

um. yeah how much has affected you. personally I mean you you you get to see. some of the worst aspects of human life. in a lot of ways some of the most. disturbing aspects of human life. I do but I always see it through the. eyes as a hour. um as a journalist I think that's what. protects me in so many ways. um I you know I think like how cameraman. my cameraman that I work with were. amazing always say how their protection.

is seeing it through the camera and it. gives them a certain level of protection. but then I don't want to sound too naive. but it is true that the fact that I find. so many of these people to be so much. like me and so human really gives me. hope because again it's about what are. the motivations what is making these. people do what they do and if we can get. at those motivate motivations we can. actually do something to prevent these. black markets from existing and I think. that's what's missing is that we're.

always trying to sort of put a cap on. these black markets whether it's the War. on Drugs you know or whatever it is. we're trying to get to the sort of a. very short-minded solution to the to the. problem our short-term solution as well. but really what's at the Crux of the. problem at the center of all of this is. the inequality that exists and if we. provide people jobs whether it's you. know the militants that are now with. Boko Haram if we had given them jobs or. or uh you know the the kids in the.

cocaine Trail uh you know all of these. people the vast majority of them if you. provide them a job in the legal World. they would much rather do that. um not the guys at the top because. they're making a [ __ ] ton of money but. the guys at the top wouldn't be able to. run their operations if they didn't have. you know an army out there of people. without opportunities well what you do. is so important because if people didn't. have access to the kind of footage that. you're able to provide by going there.

and doing boots on the ground journalism. people wouldn't have this understanding. of the reality of the world yeah thank. you it's uh yeah it's I love what I do. so none of it is a sacrifice but it does. take me away from from my family I've. spent half of my time on the road and. I'm a mother so it's difficult but I can. imagine that's kind of to be very very. hard yeah. have you investigated Cobalt mining I. haven't but I've been I have some. friends who have in the Congo as well. and I've been wanting to did you have.

somebody recently Darth Cara who uh he. wrote a book on it and he was over there. for quite a long time and it's in the. Congo yeah the footage of it is insane. these people what they call Artisan. Cobalt mines you know it's it's. basically people with hammers and no. protective equipment women who are like. 19 years old with babies on their backs. and they're like digging into the ground. pulling out this Cobalt and you know he. was saying essentially that there's no.

such thing as like clean Cobalt like. most Cobalt like this is these are these. Cobalt lines it was insane and Siddharth. who had risked his life to go there and. and try to show this and expose it what. is his book Jamie. he. um he just put out a book about his. experiences but. having him on was like one one of the. heaviest podcasts we've ever done and.

him explaining that these companies are. doing this and they're well aware and. that this is a this is Cobalt red. um the con how the blood of the Congo. Powers Our Lives. um. having this conversation with him and. realizing that. every smartphone has the center. and this is uh something that people are. blissfully unaware of the source of the. material that is powering the most. sophisticated electronics that we we use.

to operate Our Lives we are but the. owners of the companies are well aware. right they oh they're well aware they. must be you know he was explaining how. apple and all these other companies that. rely every smartphone has this. the with the Lithium-ion batteries they. have Cobalt in them yeah we've been. looking into doing an episode on that. I've reported extensively on gold mining. also in Colombia for example and how it. was fueling back then it was a Civil War. and it was farc was making a lot of.

money out of first cocaine and then gold. became. very profitable if not more profitable. and since then it's now the klondell. Golfo which is sort of the Colombian. cartel that is the most powerful cartel. in Colombia. um and they're all over the gold mining. and I've been to a lot of these legal. minds and it's again so sad because it's. the poorest of the poor people in. horrific conditions also trying to get. gold so that we can wear this yeah. that's crazy but that's not necessary.

yeah what's really crazy because gold is. not really necessary well it is actually. because it isn't it used in. for uh like airplanes and I think it is. right I think so Jamie help us out gold. is used yeah. yeah all this mining yeah I just think. that there's a lack of awareness in. general about where the stuff we wear. and use comes from it just speaks to the.

chaotic existence of human beings enjoy. great conductor electricity yeah right. yeah yeah two ml is considered better. conductor electricity than gold silver. and copper gold connectors are also used. for transmitting Digital Data fast and. accurately yeah yeah. it's just so crazy that the most. sophisticated Electronics like our. smartphones. in all the root of it is someone with a. hammer in the Congo inhaling these.

horrible toxic chemicals people who. probably cannot afford to own the. smartphones no electricity they have no. electricity I mean they barely are. surviving off the money they make. working 12 hours a day yeah digging into. the ground yeah and horrific Health. consequences of this as well yeah I. really really really want to do an. episode on that. it is insane yeah what else did you. cover this year this year we have oil we. did one on fight clubs oh you like that. fight clubs yeah there's real fight.

clubs yeah we are I know there are I've. seen some stuff on YouTube where there's. like these backyard setups where people. yeah so we went to a few of those but. it's a real thing um we did another on. organs but I'll go there in a second so. fight clubs is really interesting I. actually used to love MMA used to I mean. I don't watch it as much or I don't. watch it ever but I used to watch it. when you I I was at one UFC the ultimate. fighting challenge came out. championships Championship it's okay.

he would know about it I do know about. it I used to really like it actually I. think that's the first time I remember. hearing about you but um many many years. ago when was that it was like. 2008 when you've heard from no when the. championship came out when they did the. reality show now in 2005 2005 yeah the. reality show was The Ultimate Fighter. Ultimate Fighting it wasn't a challenge. no it was yeah I can help you here this. is the Ultimate Fighting Championship is.

the name of the organization and that. was started in 1993 and it was purchased. in 2001 by the company that I work for. and that's they're called zoofa I. actually started working for them in. 1997. I started working for the UFC when. it was very underground and it was only. on DirecTV it was actually banned from. cable but that was more of an economic. thing it was like boxing was trying to. keep it out and and also people had like. a distorted idea of what it was and.

some people like John McCain referred to. it as human [ __ ] fighting but me as a. lifelong martial artist it was what I'd. always wanted to see is stylistically. like what is the best style of martial. art like because it's a it's a puzzle. you know people think of it the way I. describe martial arts is its high level. problem solving with dire physical. consequences which is why I loved it so. so it was called Ultimate Fighter right. yes that's reality reality show that was. on Spike which was so smart because it.

got people like me that I've never even. watched or been interested in boxing to. become obsessed with MMA so for a little. time I was really into MMA and I was. really into all the I can't remember one. single fighter that I liked at the time. but I didn't I promise you I did many. years ago I did and one of the things. that I really loved about it was the. youth how how smart it was and how. they're yeah like problem solving. constantly and I love that part about it. yeah so haven't been a follower since. but having liked it at some point in my. life and followed it I started hearing.

about these fight clubs and they do. exist and right now we basically the the. episode is about one particular League. it's pkfc bare knuckle fighting have you. heard of them. and uh we started the episode actually. in Thailand which is the mecca for MMA. and we went to a few underground illegal. fights there and it was insane oh you. you would love it it was yeah [ __ ]. crazy everything is allowed so we went.

there it's sort of this it was this. garage turned into a a fight night and. uh you paid to go in the promoter was a. guy called that we call Jonathan and he. says everything is allowed everything. you can even bite everything is allowed. you can bite you can do anything. everything is allowed and if people. because there's not an actual ring um if. people come towards us just push them. back in and it's I think it was like 20. kids or something and they each fight. against each other and some of them come. dressed up as clowns or as a businessman.

they're like trying to they make it. entertaining and they come up with names. for themselves and then they go at it. and you can you I mean you've been to. many of these fights but this again no. rules you see people biting I don't. didn't actually see people biting but I. don't I did see a lot of blood and there. was no Medics there and there's no. ambulances and there's no medical. whatever and then there it was two there. were two kids in particular that we. filmed that had a lot of blood coming. out and uh and then so that was Thailand. and we spent time there with uh bkfc.

there that is actually run by a guy. called Nick Chapman and he was two of. the fighters that he had for his. upcoming big event actually came from. these groups from the illegal on the. underground fighting and it was a big. draw because the underground fight that. they too the two these two kids had. fought had millions of viewers and. people loved it until then he brought. them to the Limelight of the bkfc and he. had them fight and uh and then we came. to the U.S and trying to figure out wait.

is this really happening here because. like you said you see these videos on. YouTube but how big a thing is this but. the first place we went was in Detroit. and we went to this uh in this case it. was actually an illegal boxing match. um and it was a soup kitchen for the. homeless during the day and at night it. became a gambling and Fight Club league. and and it was boxing again lots of kids. lots of gambling so in this case it's. sort of what is legal and illegal. changes in and state by state it's not. legal I think bkfc is actually not legal.

bare knuckle fighting is not legal in. half I think more than half of the US. and in Michigan for example Detroit this. was boxing but you can't if there's. gambling involved they don't have a. license so all of it was illegal and. there was gambling involved and you're. supposed to have paramedics on site and. an ambulance of insight none of that. happened we filmed with one of the kids. that got really badly hit and he was. taken out with his brother like holding. him out into the night. um it was fascinating so it's it's there. and then we follow this one kid who's 18.

years old the youngest ever be KFC. fighter as he sort of starts going to. try out and then has his spot and then. we filmed his first fight on the bkfc. and it was yeah it was really. fascinating they're doing a lot of what. they're doing is they're taking Fighters. that are sort of um. the fought for big organizations like. the UFC and didn't do that well and this. is their or they did well and maybe. their time is up and then they offer.

them a lot of money to fight that's true. bare knuckle fights and apparently. they're offering them a lot of money and. we interviewed David Felder uh Feldman. sorry David Feldman who is the head of. uh uh the the bkfc and uh. ysm so are you recruiting Because I know. he's recruiting a lot from former UFC. fighters but I asked him if he was also. recruiting from sort of these illegal. and he said not so much but this case. this kid this 18 year old was found out. because he was fighting in one of these. backyard fights and somebody saw him a.

promoter saw him really liked him and. then gave him this opportunity. the bare knuckle thing is interesting. because I was an advocate for uh. removing gloves in MMA because I think. that it gives you a false sense of. safety and uh it also protects one part. of your body that is not the best weapon. like the only reason why your hands are. good weapons as a fist really is because. your hands protected by wraps and gloves.

but hands are very easy to break your. hand is designed to carry things and. hold stuff and pull things and. manipulate things it's not really. designed to hit and to punch someone. with your hand brakes are very very. common in MMA and I would imagine even. more so in uh in bare knuckle but your. you're allowed to hit someone with a. bare elbow you're allowed to hit someone. with a bare Shin you're allowed to hit. someone with knees and it didn't make.

sense to me that you would protect the. hands because you're getting it just. right so for me as a martial artist what. I what I wanted was I was like well. let's be honest about what this is. you're trying to figure out what's the. best way to fight and wouldn't wouldn't. that be more honest if you didn't have. protection on your hands because you. wouldn't be able to use the hands the. same way in in MMA guys just swing. wildly and hope they don't break their. hands and their hands are somewhat. protected by the gloves and somewhat.

protected by the wraps but even then we. still get a lot of hand brakes and I was. thinking it doesn't make sense you're. allowed to kick someone in the face with. your shins or knee someone in the face. with your your knee or elbow them in the. face but you you had your hands. protected right so what he says which is. interesting is that he kept referring to. this study that has been done where they. found out that actually there are more. concussions in UFC or MMA than there is. in bare knuckle fighting but there are. more lacerations that happen when it's a.

bare hand yeah that's what I would have. believed too but that's also with elbows. but elbows certainly can give you. concussions but boxing has far more. deaths than MMA and boxing I would. imagine if none of it is good for your. brain Zero Zero fighting is good for. your brain zero impact is good for your. brain it's all bad for your brain. but I would imagine if you were just. boxing you're going to get hit in the.

head more because there's not the option. to take someone down there's not not the. option to clench and hold and press Them. Up Against the Cage. but what I've seen from uh bare knuckle. is this destroying of people's faces. like the laceration there's a fighter. named Chris lieben and he was on The. Ultimate Fighter season one and he's a. kind of a legend in MMA just a crazy. wild dude who's a brutal knockout. puncher and he fought in bare knuckle.

towards the end of his career and he. fought this guy I think Dakota Cochran I. think was his name and uh he got one of. the worst cuts I've ever seen in all my. years of of watching fighting see if you. can find Chris lieben. so this is look at that I mean that. that's from a bare knuckle fight I mean. it looks like he got hit with a machete. oh my God it's crazy and that's. lacerations from uh Knuckles right. and you know this is a guy that fought.

um and that's uh Jason Knight. um who also was a guy who fought in the. UFC for a while and then left the UFC. and wound up fighting bare knuckle and I. mean just crazy lacerations because your. your skin and your face tears very. easily so are you not a fan of big KFC. have you watched any I've watched it I. wouldn't say I'm a fan like I don't. watch it on a regular basis. um I'm a fan of people being allowed to. do whatever they want to do and I'm a.

fan of bull riding if you want to do. bull riding I don't want to ride a bull. I don't want to stop someone from riding. a bull though and I think that's. probably far more dangerous than this. and there's concussions and yeah deaths. there's a lot of there's there's skill. involved in bare knuckle boxing I mean. it is a martial art without a doubt but. the damage that it does to your face is. pretty pretty real and you know there's. there's a woman named Paige VanZant. who's this beautiful girl who.

was a fighter for the UFC and has really. become more wealthy from her only fans. and from her website and just from being. hot and she's fought a few times in bare. knuckle boxing too and you know every. time she finds him like you know because. I'm just worried about your face getting. destroyed yeah yeah we saw there was. definitely a lot of blood but I think. yeah I think it's the balance what he. kept telling us is the balance do you. want more concussions or do you want. more lacerations yeah well you're.

getting concussions everyone I mean it's. not like you're going to get less. concussions or less I mean you're still. going to get them you're literally just. punching each other in the face right. but I bet it's probably safer somewhat. than boxing with gloves on because you. can hit someone so much more with it's. the thudding on the head and the Brain. rattling around inside the the head that. causes all the real damage it's the. rattling around even more than the. actual hit right which is the thing with. bull riding one of the reasons so I did.

a story on CTE and bull riding CT is. when you have a lot of concussions among. you. um yeah and it was a lot what we heard. is the rattling around CT actually comes. often from sub concussive blows it's um. it's not just concussions it's um it's. you get it from jet skiing believe it or. not one of my good friends is Mark. Gordon and he uh runs. um. therapy for.

um traumatic brain injuries for soldiers. and athletes and he's a Pioneer on. therapies for people with traumatic. brain injuries and uh he's he said that. you'd be shocked at how many things. cause CTE which is chronic traumatic. encephalopathy and it's it's. sub-concussive blows that do a lot of. the damage people from that play soccer. get CTE from heading the ball Believe It. or Not which is crazy crazy people ever.

associate soccer with CT but it's true. it's um the brain is just not meant to. get rattled around no matter what. happens so if it's MMA or if it's boxing. or bare knuckle boxing you know you can. make it the argument that it's. safer but it's not safe it's the nature. of what you're doing you you understand. it going into it it's not like you're. being lied to you're going into it. knowing it's not safe yeah and that's. one of the things that when we were. interviewing bull riders for example. that they all told us it's not as if we. don't know this is a risk that this.

might happen to us but this is still the. profession we've chosen yeah and I'm not. of the I don't think you should protect. people from their decisions I think you. should be allowed to but you should be. informed informed and there should be I. think there should be some sort of. controls in terms of if a person has. just had a concussion there should be a. time between when they're allowed to go. back in the room or go back on people. right or on top of a bull. um and and and that's where sometimes in. the name of prophets and show. business yes that's where sometimes that.

lacks well there's also the reality of. training in that a lot of the brain. damage that people get they get from. training they get it from sparring like. when you're sparring and you're training. that's not those aren't like it's not. like you only get brain damage from. fights most Fighters I believe get the. majority of the damage if especially if. they're not in a good camp and there's. different philosophies in terms of like. how people train and some people train.

where they Spar hard all the time and. some people train with a very rarely. Spar hard. but if you're sparring hard you're. getting head if you're getting hit. you're going to get damage so if they. have a concussion they're still allowed. to train if they want of course you're. supposed to if commissions will put. um no contact uh rules on a fighter. after they have been knocked out or. they've been badly damaged they would. say like no contact for 90 days or. something like that but I mean how do.

you really know when a person is. sparring how do you stop when the person. goes back to St Louis and they go back. to their gym and they got knocked out a. month ago how are you going to stop them. from sparring I mean when there's no one. in the gym and you know they just. they're just working out how are you. going to stop that there was a story. actually today about two women two. athletes I think one was a cyclist and. the other one was a snowboarder or. something to do with skiing and snow and.

they both committed suicide when it was. American I think the other one was. British and they both committed suicide. and they were very happy individuals. High achiever is great in school lots of. friends and then suddenly they had. really bad concussions and then. everything turned South it's horrible. it's really and and particularly in. women I think it's understudied CTE in. in women or how because it apparently. has even a bigger effect on women it. goes more undetected or if there's less. studies done on on how it affects the. brain and concussions have a completely. different. effect on women that they have on men.

and that's what the article was talking. about it was yeah well what Dr Gordon. describes is the damage to the pituitary. gland it's like the pituitary gland is. particularly delicate and when you get. hit it could be just one it's it's very. so much one person could get knocked out. a bunch of times and they don't have an. issue and then one person just one. concussion and they're forever changed. yeah and that's the that's the reality. of it and there's also a gene expression. I think it's called apoe4 that makes. someone more likely to get CTE.

and uh yeah yeah it's really sad I mean. without the bullfighting the bull riding. we filmed a family of a kid in Canada. who was who won the championship in. Canada for a bull riding is a loved guy. in in the in the league and. his name was Tyler and he committed. suicide and he was so young he's like 24. years old and he was very happy-go-lucky. normal and then suddenly you know and he. also I mean he had I think he actually. did have a lot of concussions but um it.

was everything happened so fast yeah. it's horrible it's horrible and for many. of these people they don't have another. thing to do so this is their life yeah. and this is and they want to get back to. doing it and they want to try and then. it gets worse and you know and then when. you're suffering from a concussion and. you get repeated concussions and it's. compounded. yeah and a lot of these people you know. for example the bull riders and I think. the MMA fighters I'm certainly in the. Bull Riding community once they start.

feeling like something isn't right they. don't. um really have they don't feel like it's. they don't feel safe or they don't want. to talk to other people about it because. they think it's not manly to tell other. people that they're feeling depressed. and they can't figure out why or they're. unhappy why are you unhappy just won a. championship or you're doing so well in. your life and what's the reason for your. depression yeah so it's sort of a cycle. yeah there's a lot of there's. unawareness and then there's also the. reality of what kind of person. gravitates towards that thing in the.

first place they have extreme confidence. they also have this belief that they're. different and that they especially if. they're a fighter like that I know what. I am and I'm better than this and I'm. better than everybody else and I'm going. to figure this out I'm going to just. keep doing it right and it's their. identity and so there's so many things. wrapped up into it that yeah makes them. continue down that path yeah and a lot. of them their coaches don't help either. their coaches you know they're you know. I don't know if the coaches are unaware.

or if they're not sophisticated about or. they don't care but they just they let. these guys keep fighting when they. should they 100 should retire and you. know it's very difficult for me to watch. that it's the number one thing that I'm. most conflicted about about commenting. on MMA fights is knowing that some. people are gone. and they're not the same guy anymore you. see their movement is awkward yeah you. see their movement their movement's. awkward their steps are shorter. um they they don't have a fluidity to.

their movement anymore and to their gate. and uh their their neural system their. their neurological system is compromised. so what do you do in a situation like. that. what can I do you know if it's a person. that I know I try to tell them you have. to stop what's the answer most of the. time they don't want to stop they reject. it they're mad at me you know I've seen. I had a. one very public. thing that I did with a very good friend. of mine who had been knocked out a bunch. of times in the UFC and um I had to tell.

him on a podcast after he got knocked. out I'm like you have to stop you have. to stop I'm like you you this is going. to keep happening and it's going to get. way worse like because once you've been. knocked out a bunch of times there's. also a thing that happens where you it's. more easy to knock you out you can't. take a shot anymore that's right which. was the case with this kid Ty he kept on. being knocked out and so do they did he. stop he did yeah my friend did but he. [ __ ] was very mad at me for a while. yeah so he was a lot of his friends now.

he's so happy and he thanks me what does. he do now he does podcasting that's. great yeah but it was a real problem. where we were we were all aware of it. but no one wanted to say anything but. I've just been involved in this world my. whole life and I've seen it my whole. life I've seen people that never had a. career in fighting and they just got. brain damage from sparring you know when. I knew that I was on that road myself. like I remember. um one day when I was 21. laying in bed.

after. um uh sparring and my head was throbbing. and I was just lying on the pill and my. head was beat just. With Every Beat in my heart my head was. throbbing and I was like what am I doing. in my brain like what am I doing and how. much damage have I already done because. a lot of brain damage doesn't even show. up until years after the injury right. and you know there's just everything's. [ __ ] everything's [ __ ] so is it. something you're still worried about no.

not anymore I'm sure I have some. lingering effects I mean clearly yeah. no doubt uh I think it's um it's there's. a certain amount of brain damage that. everyone who competes in Combat Sports. has to accept but you it's not even and. you don't know and some people are fine. they've had full long careers and. there's nothing wrong with them they're. fine and then other people they're just. one or two Knockouts and they're never.

the same person again and you know there. was a guy named Mildred Taylor. who was a Olympic gold medalist Elite. boxer and he had one fight with Julio. Cesar Chavez and it was an absolutely. brutal fight where he was knocked out. with two seconds to go in the last round. by Julio Cesar Chavez who's one of the. greatest of all time but it was a fight. that Mildred Taylor was winning and he. got knocked out with two seconds to go. it was a famous thing because referee. Richard Steele he waved the fight off. and everybody was so mad at him that he.

stopped the fight with two seconds to go. but meldrick was never the same again. never the same again he kept getting. knocked out after that and now there's. been interviews with him where you hear. him talk now like he was planning a. comeback years back and they interviewed. him and it's the most depressing thing. see if he can find uh meldrick Taylor. being interviewed because in the. beginning of his career you know you. would hear him talk and he was talking. about his training and his this and his. that and it was just normal guy nothing.

wrong and then you see him and he's in. his 30s he's young he's fit and he. literally can't form sentences he can't. get words out it sounds like he just. drank you know like five bottles of. vodka and you know and you picked him up. off the couch and had him have to have a. conversation that's punch drunk I mean. that's that's why people call it punch. drunk because it really does sound like. they're drunk like they like let's see. if you hear this I was very impressed. with what I saw when the surveys was a.

very they think it was very solid these. looked very invested taking his punches. and everything was accurate I think. everything was consistent. um I was very impressed the last couple. rounds he started to pick the pace up. and get very strong this is not too bad. this is uh after. um one of the fights like do meldrick. Taylor interview brain damage. Google that because people are super. aware of him because he was an Olympic.

gold medalist and he was like that's the. same video. um see if you could find just pull just. go to videos. go to videos. and scroll down. maybe that one. maybe that tale of Julio Cesar Chavez. versus Mildred Taylor. yeah is it well I don't think they're. going to have it in this one because. this is uh HBO I don't think they're. going to show that he right.

but it's just Google meldrick Taylor. slurring his words try that but it was. really bad what happened to him by the. way he retired but um another one is. Terry Norris. I know there's ones with Terry Norris. Terry Norris is another he actually. knocked out Mildred Taylor he was one of. the guys that knocked out Mildred Taylor. after The Knockout loss to Julius Chavez. and melger Taylor there was actually a. thing because his wife he's teaching. boxing now and his wife helps him and.

he's like really compromised and um. Terry Norris in his prop here this is it. this is it this I was thinking that to. me because that the media wrote bad. things about me the minimum names too I. was watching today at 36. that's see that's that's what I'm. talking about and you see now he's. fighting you know play a little bit more. now. so that's uh Dr Margaret Goodman and.

she's I think she's talking about he's a. classic and I think I'm going to really. Excel see in this fight I'm going to. prepare me as the best Friday of 12 foot. pound in the world it's gonna make me a. superstar people said I think about. Mommy about my career I shouldn't be. fighting no more it's not true so I'm. here to prove myself that I'm still the. same father so that's 10 years and he's. still saying he wants to go fight this. is 10 years later so this was you go. back 10 years he's fine 10 years later. he's doomed and it's only going to get.

worse yeah get to the point where you. literally can't understand a word. they're saying yeah it's I mean it's so. wrapped up in their identity yes it's. everything it's also the most exciting. moments of their life yeah there's. nothing like it the the Victory and. meldrick was a champion I mean he was an. elite elite fighter so he had trained so. hard and dedicated so to to be at that. level that meldrick Taylor was or that. Terry Norris was you you have to. dedicate everything you have to to be.

that good because you're beating the. best guys in the world and that it's so. much of your identity and so much of the. and you you haven't done anything else. this is all you've ever done yeah you've. devoted your whole life to being an. expression and then you're not able to. be that person anymore yeah so I don't. know if bare knuckle boxing is going to. protect people from that I don't think. it is but it's maybe maybe slightly. maybe you can't do as many fights. because your face gets so lacerated yeah.

I think it has hard yeah I think one of. the questions that we were interested in. is if there's an incentive for these. illegal fights but I think like. everything boxing MMA they all started. by getting people. um from sort of the underground fights. right yeah is this it Fight Club yeah. this is Flight Club Thailand Thailand. yeah so Fight Club is one of the groups. that we filmed with one of the kids. interesting. is it it's just a fight I found randomly. on YouTube okay these kids have this is.

just a regular fight this wasn't that. bad. it's just showing you yeah I'm trying to. figure out if these were the interesting. because these guys have uh gloves on I. think what happened I'm not sure the. kids that we saw fight there was a kid. called Nasim. [Music]. oh yeah get trapped oh because this is. this is interesting because they're. letting him get up after he gets dropped. so this is uh this seems like uh are. they stopping the fight.

so this is this continues. but so this is like a stand-up fight. only or is this uh this is this seems. like it's Muay Thai with uh with gloves. on because when the guy went down they. actually like gave him like an eight. count. this is a lot more organized by the way. than what we filmed yeah I found another. one that seemed a little more organized. too but it was in the middle of like a. highway overpass yeah ours was not like. this at all uh and in fact I don't think.

it there's a lot of films out there that. depict what we we filmed it was it was. very it was like in a garage transformed. into and it was a bunch of kids like. cheering these guys up out you know and. one of them actually uh the promoter. Nick Chapman who runs bkfc in Thailand. um had already. picked two of these guys to go and fight. with him for his league and then there. was another one this day that he. discovered and went up to him and asked. for his phone number and said hey we. want you to come and try out with us how. much money are they paying these people.

because I don't I don't know we never. got that information the bare knuckle. fight anything I know they're they're. incentivizing these MMA fighters to stop. fighting MMA and guys who were like. Elite Fighters like Hector Lombard and. Diego Sanchez who's on season one of The. Ultimate Fighter he's now fighting for. them and there's a guy named Mike Perry. who's a really good fighter who's one of. their I think he's a champion over there. now and apparently they have a lot of. viewers a lot of people a lot of fans a. lot of people tune in to their review I. would imagine is it a pay-per-view it's.

paid yeah I think it's pay-per-view yeah. and they have their own channel or their. own like online Channel yeah. um and a lot of people and even in the. Thailand event There Was You Know. thousands of people that showed up that. day it was massive it's very difficult. to put together a successful mixed. martial arts promotion. um it's very difficult to get Elite. Talent it's very difficult to lure. people away from the UFC. it's or there's like these UFC and. Bellator in the United States and.

there's a lesser-known organization. called the pfl that that pays a lot of. money and they pay a lot of money to try. to incentivize people that are thinking. about re-signing with the FC to go over. there and they were on NBC for a while. and at least NBC Sports and then there's. one FC which is an enormous company. that's in Asia that gets a lot of Elite. Talent to go over there and again it's. like they incentivize people with money. but you have to have very very very Deep. Pockets to be able to get these people.

and then to put together a promotion. that people are willing to pay for is. even harder like Bellator which is the. number two organization in the United. States I think they've only done one. Pay-Per-View event I think most of what. they do is on Showtime or now uh the. last one they had was on CBS. but because it's costly yes and all. people don't want to pay like to to get. to to get people to spend enough money. on a pay-per-view where you could pay.

the fighters millions of dollars right. is so hard to do right if if you're. getting those kind of Fighters but if. you're getting Fighters like from the. street fights of Thailand you're not. paying them you're paying them two. thousand dollars and I think there's an. inbuilt that that's what we saw is that. there's an inbuilt they already have. inbuilt followers because people are. fascinated this had millions of views. this fight between these two kids these. Street Fighters. um and so that's what he used this the.

the already following that these guys. had to promote this big event. is that one what bare knuckle offers. though is a different even more hardcore. image it's like these guys don't even. have gloves on and so maybe you can get. people to pen spend money to see that on. pay-per-view where they might know some. of the fighters they some of the. fighters have names but. to fight to see them fight in MMA be. like wow you're watching.

I don't mean to disparage but this is. the the hardcore fans perspective you're. watching second-rate MMA which is not. really fair because a lot of those guys. are first right first-rate Fighters they. just chose to fight in Bellator and they. make more money there. so it's complex so it's like to to be. able to put together a promotion like. the UFC has there's really only one UFC. in America it's the only one that has a. pay-per-view every month a successful. pay-per-view every single month right.

and they're all trying to be UFC yes. they're all trying to be yeah to compete. with UFC or be that legitimate yeah from. what I heard and saw there is some sort. of appeal to the fact that it's bloodier. right that there's. um I think people a lot of people want. to watch fights because it's promises. blood and. um Knockouts is what people want to see. it yeah and there is even then blood. yeah they want to see people getting. knocked out yeah and I think there's a. certain idea that everybody they all. want to be Kimbo Slice yes yes let's we.

hear that a lot and this idea that it's. some sort of it's a little bit. underground still or some of these. Fighters are fighting in the underground. there's an Allure to that that attracts. people I think what did you what did you. feel when you were watching that like. the people being exploited like how what. did it feel like to you when you were. there did it bother you no I think that. there is my one of my biggest questions. was about the incentive right basically. if you're getting these kids. um and offering them money once you see.

them play or fight in the underground. you're basically incentivizing these. fight clubs to exist. um but I think that can be applied to. many other forms of fighting um what I. did see was that these kids were given. an opportunity to be completely Fair. they were given an opportunity that they. would never be given they're fighting. anyway it's Thailand it's it's in their. blood yeah they're out there on the. streets we saw some of these kids. fighting out on the streets and training. on the streets and it's craziness so. they're going to be fighting anyway. these street fights it's there's one. called Fight Club the other one's called.

street fight they're like big rivalries. and they put on shows that are unpaid. and they just do it for the support of. it so at least they're giving them an. opportunity with an American company to. pay them some money. um the problem for me or perhaps not the. problem but the big question that I. raised was was it incentivizing thing. fights like what I saw in Detroit what I. saw in Florida in some of these places. because they know that they're being. watched that these videos are going to. go on YouTube that their promoters out. there that are looking for so kids are. willing to do crazy things in places.

that don't have any medical support no. ambulances no medical tests nothing no. support for these kids so I think that. is the biggest question that they would. say is that every single League whether. it's boxing or the UFC they all started. by picking or plucking from the. underground and that's how you no that's. not true not the UFC no that's I mean. there's a few Fighters like Kimbo Slice. but Kimbo Slice. he actually became very famous like the. first guy to become famous from these. backyard fights and became hugely famous.

and then eventually went on The Ultimate. Fighter and uh lost in the ultimate my. favorite show to uh Roy Big Country. Nelson who was a skilled Grappler who. took him down and beat him up on the. ground. um and it showed that someone who is a. bare knuckle fighter uh really has they. they're missing some skills that would. allow because people like chemical slice. could beat anybody but then you see no. this big fat guy takes him down and. beats the [ __ ] out of him and you're. like oh there's levels to this right and. then Kimbo with his incredible courage.

decided to continue to learn and grow. and try to fight in the UFC and he had a. bunch of fights and he fought for a. company called Elite XC which was a CBS. startup where they were trying to do the. same thing and recreate what the UFC had. done it wasn't that successful but Kimbo. was their main guy because he was so. famous so there's him but other than. that most of the people come from. amateur organizations and they come from. small shows like the LFA and like lower.

tiered mixed martial arts organizations. that are the level of talent is. extremely high now so because of the the. incentive to get into the UFC or. Bellator or any of these big. organizations where you can make a lot. of money you're getting like very. skilled amateur wrestlers very skilled. kickboxers like they're you're not. they're not all pulling from these. backyard fights that is true but if you. don't have an opportunity to fight on a. mature level and if you all you can do. is fight in the backyard and there's. somebody filming and there is an example.

of a Kimbo Slice out there you can. guarantee that there are hundreds of. kids out there willing to take those. risks because they think they might be. able to be the next Kimbo Slice perhaps. and I think the same thing applies to. bkfc perhaps the fact that they put on. shows with these kids yeah and I'm not. saying that's right or wrong I'm saying. that this is happening. um and whether it should be allowed or. not is not my place I'm saying what I'm. just saying is that it's a small. percentage. when you're dealing with someone like. something like the UFC the vast majority.

of these Fighters are coming from. legitimate gyms because to to be able to. compete at the highest level you have to. have a full comprehensive set of skills. you have to be very good and you're. seeing guys who compete in the UFC for. the very first time that are world-class. talents because they've fought in these. other organizations and successfully. built up their skills until they're. ready for the UFC right they've went up. the ladder and but I think bkfc would. probably say the same thing that the. vast majority of their Fighters are also. skilled when they come from other.

leagues in other places well some of. them also come from the underground I. think dkfc is probably the best example. of that sort of underground thing um as. far as I know I think they take care of. things medically and they have you know. EMTs on staff they have people ready. yeah so this is definitely do it's. different than this underground backyard. things yeah just BFC bkfc is illegal in. a lot of States but it's legal in like. Wyoming and that's where they were.

having a lot of their fights and some. some other states that are like okay. yeah give it a shot come on you know and. I don't think that's necessarily wrong. like I think you should be allowed to do. it if you want to do it and there's you. know I have friends that do it backyard. fighting or no bare knuckle fight oh. bear knuckle yeah so it's like I have to. say we went to the event uh both here. and in Thailand and it's really as a. huge fan of MMA myself no it is really. really I mean I was it was really.

entertaining yeah it's entertaining. entertaining it's watching people beat. the [ __ ] out of each other unfortunately. I would agree. but you know I I think. for the Casual Observer it can give the. sport a bad name because people think of. it as just being this awful Fight Club. type thing and this is what it's all. about it's like the It appeals to the. worst aspects of human nature yeah yeah. and particularly if people are making. money out of other people's risking.

without any medical support again the. idea is bad and if there's gambling. involved and these kids are not being. paid or they're only paid if they win. but again no medical support that's all. questionable well the UFC actually. recently outlawed gambling in terms of. all of its Fighters like no one's. allowed to gamble anymore because there. was a scandal. one of the fighters. um apparently was injured and it was. revealed on an online Forum in some way.

and this is all I don't know the full. details because there's currently an. investigation so the coach was suspended. the fighter who was in question was. suspended and everyone from that gym or. that coach train is no longer allowed to. compete in the UFC so everyone from that. gym had to leave that gym and go to. other gyms because these are. professionals that relied on that gym. for all of their training and their. their plan their career so these people. have to relocate they have to move they. have to do something different and then.

this fighter or this trainer rather is. in deep [ __ ] like there's a real serious. investigation as to whether or not they. told people that this guy was injured. and he was going to take a dive and then. a bunch or that he was no way he was. going to be able to to win the fight and. then a bunch of people bet on his. opponent there was some so late money. informed money wow and then they came in. and he won and everybody lost their. money exactly no no no no no he came in. and he lost and everybody won money. because they knew he was going to lose.

oh so they were better is that against. him got it yeah yeah but why were they. telling people that he was going to lose. so then the odds because they could bet. on it but the odds would be less against. them for them right because there were. more people they wanted to make money. they're not they're not trying to prop. him up let me explain it let me explain. it what they were doing was the fighter. who was injured when the they have these. gambling forms and they discuss this. right the fighter who was injured. everyone knew this fighter was injured. this coach had apparently informed.

people to bet against this fighter. because he was injured and then he goes. and wins no he lost he was injured he. was informing them correctly so this guy. went in and essentially had no chance. and all this informed money on the fact. that this guy shouldn't have been. fighting in the first place bet against. him bet on the opponent and made a lot. of money the bookmakers found out about. this the oddsmakers found out about this. and it's akin to cheating because they. knew this guy was not going to be able. to really fight what would have been.

even smarter because then the odds would. have been more in favor of him as if he. had told a large group of people that he. was injured and in fact he wasn't. injured and he went there and won and. then everybody was betting against the. opponent and the there were less people. betting for him so they would win more. money that's what I thought you were. saying no you could do that but then you. would have to you still make sure you. win yeah you'd have to actually win and. then when you're dealing with like a a. organization like the UFC these Fighters. are are well matched so the odds of him.

just being able to win and and lie about. it like that's that's there's no. guarantee anyway he could still get. knocked unconscious even if he says hey. I'm injured but he's not of course yeah. you can guarantee a lose but you can't. guarantee a win right right that's it so. if a guy's injured and you know he's. going to lose then people pushed all the. there was too much money that was being. bet and that's what triggered the. investigation and then people found out. that they had discussed the fact this. guy was allegedly discussed the fact. this guy was unable to really compete.

and fought so now no one's allowed to. bet in the UFC you can't even bet on. yourself which I think is kind of [ __ ]. because like if a fighter is going to. win like let's say if your win bonus. your your show money and win money is. like a hundred thousand dollars to show. and a hundred thousand dollars to win. which is often the case a fighter could. say I'm going to bet a hundred thousand. dollars on myself because I'm gonna [ __ ]. this guy up and then he wins Maybe has. good odds and then you could bet on. yourself you can gamble and guys have.

done that it's kind of exciting now you. can't do that anymore can you bet in. boxing I do not know I do not know. that's a good question. um I don't think boxing is regulated the. way the UFC is where there's not a. primary organization in boxing you have. a bunch of you have a bunch of different. promoters. so you have Golden Boy and top rank you. have all these different promoters so. it's not like one organization controls. all the fighters that are in this league.

right that's what the UFC does the UFC. is itself famous it's like the NFL or. the NBA it's itself famous whereas in. boxing that's not really the case in. boxing it's all about who is the. champion and champions will change. promoters they'll move to different. organizations but it's still Canelo. Alvarez it's still Floyd Mayweather and. that's what people pay to see yeah with. the UFC the UFC is the biggest name. right right that's what's different so. the UFC as an organization said you know. what we are going to ban all gambling.

because of this so no one can gamble. including I think me I think even. commentators aren't allowed to gamble. which is interesting yeah I'd assume not. if no one else is why would you be able. to yeah but I mean I can't affect the. outcome that's the thing it's like you. know if I'm if I am just calling a fight. and I see the odds I'm like these odds. suck like I think this guy is going to. beat this guy. yeah yeah in the early days because the. odds were so terrible. in the early days um when I first and. then I stopped voluntarily myself in the.

early 2000s I'm like this is kind of. [ __ ] because I was worried that I was. giving biased commentary based on bets. but there was never big bets it was like. 100 bucks or something like that but I. had a business partner of mine and and I. would give him all my picks and we were. at 84 at one time wow where he won 84 of. the bets it was crazy like we calculated. it up over like multiple cards but it. was a lot of it was because you were. getting these guys like Anderson Silva.

who's this Elite fighter who came over. from fighting in Japan and then fighting. in England you remember Anderson I. remember him oh my God in his prime he. was the goat yeah and so like when he. first came to the UFC I was like bet the. house yeah on him Brazilian yeah I'm. like bet the house on Anderson and and. he actually fought Chris lieben in his. UFC debut and uh and I I told my friend. I'm like bet everything this is a [ __ ]. this one's a shoe in yeah there's a few. fights like that where guys will come. over and people don't realize how good.

they are and then when you see them for. the first time you're like okay this is. a champion so you like gambling in. general yeah not really. um I mean I used to gamble on pool I. used to play pool for money. um but not seriously not I'm not like a. gambling addict we just worked on an. episode on gambling underground illegal. gambling it is fascinating yeah I think. fascinating what's fascinating about it. that this there's been an explosion of. gambling or illegal gambling during the. pandemic uh casinos were closed.

um it's a huge addiction as we all know. there's a lot of it's very addictive a. lot of people couldn't go to casino so. they started either online gambling or. going to underground poker games and. underground Casitas which are all over. the us we went we visited a few but they. have these like machines called The Fish. game where they spend hours and hours. this is sort of the the cheaper gambling. but they they put in 10 and 20 dollars. and they spend hours and hours but all. this is illegal and there's drugs the. fish game The Fish game it's um it's. these machines and people gather around.

them and they basically try to kill the. fish it's very rudimentary but they try. to kill the fish and then the more hits. you get you get money out of it but the. machines in many ways we interviewed one. of the guys that runs one of these. Casitas and I got tipped into this. because I was working with the LA. Sheriff's Department on another story. and they told me have you done anything. on these Casitas these legal gambling. operations because a lot of like their. cartel involved movement in it there's. Asian gangs involved and uh and so we. started looking into it and eventually.

after many months we got access to one. of them and the guy was saying how. whenever people actually start winning. from these machines he goes and. disconnects the machine and I'm. connected again he basically rigs it in. his favor which is very much how casinos. work in general yeah right. um but it was really and then the poker. game so we went from sort of the low you. know 20 dollar. games to the Beverly Hills poker game so. I got access with a friend of mine if. you've heard of a guy called Mickey mace. no uh or actually his uh online name is.

goth boy dirt goth boy you know who do. you know him I've seen his videos he. apparently makes a lot of money and he's. really good at gambling what is he. gambling he's really well known for. poker and and he uh you know he's got. celebrities and rappers who go up to him. and tell him can you can you play my. money or can you help me play and yeah. that's him. and so and so we basically filmed this. and we filmed with him and he took us to.

a few places. um and it was really fascinating to see. yeah to see sort of the illegal. underground poker games through his eyes. was really fascinating illegal. underground poker yeah it's basically. people who don't have a license so. whenever the house has made whenever. there's a person taking a fraction of. what is being made that day that you. don't and you don't have a casino. license you can you can have a poker. game at your house but if the person.

that is running that game is making. money then and you don't have a casino a. license for gambling or a casino license. that is immediately okay so like we can. have a poker game yeah and we could put. in our money and that's legal yeah but. if what if Jamie was making 10 of our. that's illegal yeah interesting and we. went to games in high rises in L.A and. in Beverly Hills and how much did you. see people play for hundreds of. thousands of dollars yeah wow I'm. telling you a lot about what's coming.

out in the next season so this is. actually one that we're filming right. now but it was really good stuff yeah. wow so this fish game can you show me a. video of this game. yeah this is it oh okay yeah oh I've. seen this yeah I've seen this game but I. didn't know that people gambled on it. they do they put in they put in money or. they have these chips that they buy we. the one we visited we arrived and the. guy told us welcome to Vegas and then. there's a bunch of guys around these. tables playing and we went on a raid. with the sheriff's department the LA.

Sheriff's Department where they were. basically rated a few of these Casitas. and got a bunch of these but then on the. flip side a few weeks later we actually. got in with the owner of one of these. Casitas who showed us how they do it and. he doesn't do it but a lot of the people. that run these games also sell meth for. really cheap because meth makes you play. for longer oh boy yeah so it's a you. know that was always a problem with. gambling in pool they were all on. amphetamines because they would play. until someone quit and so they would.

play for 24 hours 30 hours and they. would just gamble and spend thousands. and thousands I've watched some of those. games when I was when I was a kid when I. was hanging out in pool halls the guy. eyes would be on all kinds of drugs and. they would play yeah it's it's yeah. there's a huge incentive there for. people to sell math cheaply yeah because. they're making money out of it but the. illegal gambling. um what other things were they gambling. on so dice we also went to a couple of. dice games which was also really. fascinating.

um and a lot of it is a sort of in more. immigrant communities but we filmed it. both in LA and New York as well it's. just fascinating there's all these. worlds that's what I love about my job. is you find out about these worlds that. sometimes are happening just 10 minutes. from your house yeah thriving games and. trades and black markets and you know. nothing about them and they're happening. every single day you know rest very you. know in your own backyard and you have. no idea so the privilege of being able. to gain access to this world is and yeah.

gambling I think is was fascinating it. makes sense that it would if explode. during the pandemic when they shut the. casinos down in general I would say that. all black markets exploded during the. pandemic guns drugs sex trafficking but. gambling yeah as well and and one of the. things I think that the poker games in. particular what they're giving people is. they they hire like Michelin level star. chefs to cook for the guests they have. girls that stand behind uh you know.

scantily dressed women that massage you. and then can go to a private room with. you if you want to in some places not. all but some of them. um and so you're given the VIP treatment. that you know some people are given in. Vegas or at least used to be given in. Vegas. um and uh and a lot plenty of drugs lots. of drugs available for everyone and yeah. you're treated like a king and you have. everything at your disposal and it's you. know once or twice a week you're hanging. out with your friends and you're eating.

amazing food and you have these. beautiful women and you're. you know spending millions of dollars oh. wow it's fascinating I would imagine. that that make that makes sense that. gambling would explode during the. pandemic but why the other things why is. sex trafficking and guns oh well guns. would I think partly because everybody. thought that the government was going to. go after your guns so whenever there's a. Democratic president that the Gale gun. sales go up also during riots as well. the riots the fear of pandemic moment of.

Crisis uh all of that um drugs because a. lot of people were at home were bored. and also because of the scams one of the. episodes we did this season actually. that I haven't mentioned was about cyber. piracy and the online you know ID theft. scams that exist data right now is more. valuable than gold or oil or guns or. drugs or anything our data and it's out. there and it's online and it's not very. hard to find so we spend time with a. woman for example who's a single mother. a woman that we called Becky in Miami.

and uh before she met me she she decided. she wanted to find out what she could. find about me online and she found and. she told me and she found out a lot. about me that was unsafe that I prefer. if she hadn't found but what she does. she goes online she goes on this website. called Vice City. um and uh and buys a credit card number. and a name that comes with a name and an. address and then she puts that. information there's a little machine she. puts that information into a gift card. and then the information with the credit.

card number and then she goes with that. credit oh and it's a customer guarantee. so she goes with that gift card that now. has imprinted the credit card. information and she uses it if it. doesn't work she will get her eight. dollars back from the website whoa and. we saw her get this gift card get. somebody you know John Smith from. somewhere from Colorado uh his. information on his credit card stolen. information on this gift card and the. next day we saw her trying it out first.

in one of those uh snack machines. and just make sure that it works and it. did work and then the next day we saw. her go out and purchase a bunch of. things at the store with this card so. super super easy and then we escalated. from there and spent time with the Crips. with a member of the Crips who used to. deal with drugs and now exclusively does. ID theft online but in his case he was. using the money that was given out by. the government man during covid and he.

particularly in Illinois it was really. easy to give out name and an address and. they would send you unemployment funds. so these kids I'm kid you not they made. millions and millions of dollars this. one kid made over a million dollars and. he showed me his bank his online banking. statements and I could see it he was it. wasn't all bravado it was real he showed. me. um and and then and we saw him actually. going online and uh with uh with this. fake information and ID he was able to. purchase twenty five thousand dollars. worth of music equipment that he wanted.

shipped to a place wow. um and it's crazy so there is a lot of. disposable money is what I'm saying. during the pandemic that went into. purchasing. um you know things on the black market. as well what happens to these gambling. places now that the casinos are open. again does their business drop off or I. one of the things we heard is that. people prefer not to I kept on asking. like why don't you just go to Vegas. particularly if you're in La you're very. close and they're saying why if I can.

just go to a place across the street 10. minutes from me why would I go to Vegas. and it's a place where again I get. preferential treatment VIP treatment in. some situations so they just prefer it. and that's also. yeah they can they don't have to tell. anyone they can make their money and no. one will know how much money they're. making because it's underground the. gambling addiction is a wild one it is. it's really I I didn't know about it. until I got into pool halls when I was a. kid and I remember being around these.

people and they were it was no different. than someone who needs pills it was they. needed that fix it's the number one. cause of apparently of suicide. um is addiction to gambling really. particularly among teens. um it's really teens yeah. yeah. it's really really sad they just get too. far in the hole and they think their. life is over yeah and also because you. can do it now so easily online and. there's all sorts of gambling it's very. very sad. and then there's legal gambling online.

too there's legal and illegal yeah and. that's another thing that he um that we. saw was people showing us yeah just how. easy it is to gamble online with you get. these WhatsApp groups that give you a. link and then you sign you got into this. thing it looks so legitimate but it's. all illegal it used to be that online. gambling was illegal they made it. illegal to help the casinos because I. think the casinos lobbied to stop online. gambling because there was. um there was an organization that was uh.

things called the international pool. tour and their business model was based. on they were going to have these big. matches between Elite Pool Players and. people could gamble online and right. when they were launching they made. online gambling illegal and it destroyed. the organization they wound up owing a. bunch of people money and then the guy. who was the head of this whole thing was. Kevin Trudeau I don't know if you. remember who Kevin Trudeau was but he. was a guy who would he was arrested and.

went to jail for scams and the scams. were he would put out books like weight. loss Secrets they don't want you to know. like and he had infomercials that I. guess they decided were deceptive. allegedly and um I think he might still. be in jail. is he out now got out but he's in. some other issue about like not a couple. months ago oh so he was in jail for. quite a long time I actually in my house.

used to I used to have one of the pool. tables from the international pool tour. I bought one of the tables after they. like sold everything off oh wow but he. his whole thing was scams you know like. his whole thing was just like preying on. people that wanted to oh there's a. weight loss cure that they don't want. you to know about 37 million dollar fine. he got for that from the government. refunded many of the purchases of the. book but Trudeau said he was broke and. did not explain where the money had gone. the government said he still needed to. refund millions of dollars more before.

halting the case years ago U.S District. Robert gettleman said Trudeau would have. to explain where the money was the judge. added then that will be interesting I'm. not sure I'll be sitting here but I hope. to be so that's what he's in court. because he's apparently out and I think. he's just gonna flee and go get that. money right if you stashed millions of. dollars overseas it was his Camp because. what he was selling didn't actually do. any of the things he did or was it a. pyramid scam I think it was a scam in. that like he was.

it's a good question I think he was. being deceptive and he sold all these. books on these fake premises that there. was this illegal or this uh you know. secret way of doing secret way of what. different books did he have it was all. they don't want you to know. they don't want you to know about more. natural cures revealed the weight loss. here they don't want you to know about. Debt Cures they don't want you to know. about yeah.

yeah yeah whenever there's a thing so he. had infomercials and he also was one of. the commentators on these pool matches. and I actually went to a few of them I. actually met him. nice guy I seemed nice enough I mean I. don't know where's the pool table that. you bought by the way yeah I sold it I. got rid of it but this was um early. 2000s I want to say that this was. happening so this at this time gambling.

was illegal and there was actually a. company called bodog that was an online. gambling site and the guy who is the. head of bodog was a guy named Calvin. Ayers and he was like this famous. Playboy super rich guy who uh put. together bow dog fight and it was the. same sort of premise that we're gonna. they were gonna have fights and then. they were gonna um people are gonna be. able to gamble on it with his bow dog. website which became illegal so then he. have to flee the country so I believed.

at one point in time at least if he came. back to America he would have been. arrested but he got in a feud with the. UFC because like his organization was. spending. similar to like you know what I was. talking about it's like very difficult. to create a new online league but he. spent a lot of money got really big name. Fighters like Fedor emelianenenko and. you know wow like these big guys and got. them to fight and one of the events he. put and his thing would be like all. scantily clad women and you know and one.

of them they did I think they did it in. Costa Rica they did it on the beach so. they had see if you find bow dog fight. on the beach so they put together these. MMA fights like in these exotic. locations where they had these Elite. Fighters fight and they fought like on. the beach in the Sun and you know and. they had the ring set up and people were. around it is. but again his thing I believe was. gambling now I think he's involved in.

some other stuff like cryptocurrencies. and stuff overseas perfect follow-up. yeah so that was it so this is this is. the event. so that was bow dog fights and so you. know they had these these rings set up. in these beautiful exotic locations and. they've they had Elite Fighters too they. they brought in like chill sun and. fought for them uh again Fedor Matt. lindlin a lot of like elite elite. Fighters top of the food chain Fighters.

went over there with the promise of that. big cash but you were saying how it was. not legal but now it is online gambling. and sports gambling too I think a lot of. it opened up during the pandemic yeah I. think I think they opened up a lot of. online gaming and then online gambling. became it was an issue with us like. there was a time where we were. advertising for one of these online. gambling sites and then I had to do a. gig in New Jersey and uh in New Jersey. they had a real problem with the fact.

that I had advertised for these online. gambling things they wanted to make sure. I wasn't still involved with them. anymore or I couldn't work at a casino. and I was like what yeah yeah of all the. things that could be said yeah well you. know they were just upset that this was. cutting into their business in some way. I I mean I don't even you know because. the gig was at a casino yes oh got it. yeah it's just uh the gambling world is. a [ __ ] shady world I mean Vegas so. this this guy actually says uh if you.

listen to them dirt dirt goth boy Mickey. Mouse what a great name he says that. because he's made so much money at the. legal casinos he's been kicked out so. he's not allowed to actually go to the. majority of the casinos in Vegas well. that is a true thing because Dana White. who um is the president of the UFC who's. very wealthy he likes to gamble and he. made so much money gambling at the Palms. that they banned him from The Palms so. he pulled the UFC out of the Palms he's. like well [ __ ] you then yeah and then.

the UFC wasn't going to have events. there it was like a big deal because you. know he had won like seven million. dollars playing Blackjack wow yeah a. good player yeah he goes hard wow but. he's lost a million dollars in a night. too before just I guess when you're that. rich like and you're a gambler you need. big Thrills that's what you need to make. money is money well you also need it. needs to be a big number for you to get. excited like I could play pool for 20. bucks and it'd be fun but this these.

guys are like they're deep into it they. want they want that crazy Rush of hit me. you know like yes yeah yes and they run. around I want a million dollars I I. really it's the part that I don't get at. all I remember the first time I ever. went to Vegas we were traveling cross. country I moved to the to the US for the. first time all our [ __ ] got stolen and. Denver was horrible we were so sad my. husband and I we went to Vegas I put. five dollars into a cat machine and I.

won 15 I was like this is it and and. they got like two three martinis as you. were playing I was like I'm done that's. it well that's healthy yeah but it's. your you're smelling you're sniffing it. you know it's like it's a it's a thing. where these people that just are in the. casinos every day and the people that. live in Vegas and are constantly. gambling but again I feel like it should. be legal and I definitely think that. someone should be able to go to a casino. and bet money and have a good time and.

lose money or win money and it should be. fine but for some people the Allure of. it is no different than a place that. sells heroin yeah and actually uh not. making it yeah I mean there's always the. the thing that we all know which is by. illegalizing it you're actually creating. a black market because it's not going to. disappear it's going to be there but. it's going to be there with no rules and. regulations right and then you don't get. Cirque du Soleil you don't get a buffet. exactly the casinos do a great job of. incentives the free Martini go yeah I.

mean it's like casinos are great you go. there these beautiful places are really. it's a business they know how to do it. you know and they've been doing it for a. long long time no windows so you never. know what time of the day it is yeah but. but casinos that's the weird thing is. that if you win legally and ethically. you still can get banned that should not. be allowed that's kind of [ __ ] totally. [ __ ] they want it rigged yeah you know. they want to make they want to make. money and so they reserve the right to. kick you out if you're good yeah which.

is bananas bananas the moment you start. actually waking making big bunny you're. not allowed to go there anymore yeah. insane yeah but I mean I guess that's. the price you pay for having legal I. mean I don't know how the laws are. structured I'm not aware of it so. yeah but I do I'm aware that people folk. and I love it they do love it gambling. it's just such a rush to them and and. you know we show odds with uh most. fights we show the betting odds with. most fights and there's actually online.

betting organizations that will allow. you to bet in the middle of a fight you. can decide where the fight is going and. you can bet. so wait so it's betting is still allowed. in the UFC but just not part of the FC. not people that work for the UFC but. fans fans of course fans if if you're. going to have online gambling of course. fans are going to be allowed to people. on fire and it does incentivize people. to watch I mean I'm sure there's there's. which is why they show the odds I'm. assuming yeah and then also the gambling. organizations they advertise on the UFC.

and they you know they sponsor the UFC. which again I'm a fan of yeah I think. you should be allowed to do that but I. can do it I am healthy in that regard I. don't have a gambling addition but I do. know people that do have a gambling. addiction and it's it's a real thing. yeah I think again it goes back to the. alcohol idea yes I mean I think it. should be legal yeah what else did you. um do cover this this season or anything. that's like particularly bizarre yeah we. did a one on organs the first episode of.

the season was organ trafficking oh my. God yeah that one scares the [ __ ] out of. me it was the first episode and um it. was yeah I think it all start you we all. think it's a rumor and it can't really. exist and it's a Hollywood depiction of. stuff going on oh I don't think it's a. rumor but you can't that doesn't it. really exist but I even I when I started. looking into this story I was like uh is. this really a thing and then we found. out it really is something so we. traveled to Colombia and Mexico. and here in the US and we spent time. filming people involved in the trade and. I think one of the most disturbing.

interviews I ever did was with a guy in. Colombia called the wrecker which his. name is Elizabeth which means. uh the the wrecker or the deboner he. takes the bones yeah it's a horrible. name. and he works for the clan and uh and. he's we got to him when you watch the. cocaine episode we interviewed a. commander in Colombia who's part of the. cocaine trade and it was basically. through him. and some other contacts that we got an. interview with this guy and uh and it.

was horrible because he's telling us how. he does what he does and so much of it. was so horrific that I had a hard time. actually believing what he was saying. like what was he saying oh he cuts. people alive how he like takes the organ. so I was asking him a question like how. exactly do you taken like if you're. talking about a liver like how exactly. do you take a liver from somebody I. wanted him to explain but do you have. any medical training and uh again you. know one of the difficult things with. the show that we do is corroborating.

what people are telling us so with him I. kept on asking him you know because it. takes so long to even get this one. person to talk to us so how do we. corroborate what he's saying so I kept. on asking him like exactly how do you. operate on them and how do you and all. of this is very I'm very transparent. about all of this and in the show I talk. about not being absolutely 100 sure that. what he's telling me is true or not but. he then showed me a video of uh. uh them with a person and uh you know. some body parts Morgan's coming out of. um but again it is very hard to.

corroborate because it could have been a. dead body. um you know when they were taking organs. from a dead body which in that case. wouldn't be viable for transplant unless. it was that just died so it's there's a. lot of questions there the video is. really horrific and we decided not to. wear it um even though I sort of talk a. little bit about what I'm seeing but we. decided not to wear the video. um and but it was horrible because again. with trying to always empathize and. understand why people do what they do. this one was impossible like there was.

no part of me that I understood what he. did and that's why it was so much. disbelief. um but then we find out that this trade. is very much alive and uh we eventually. landed an interview with a doctor in. Mexico who told us how he's part of the. whole ordeal and he is actually in his. case we were able to corroborate a lot. more and he was a doctor with medical. expertise and then with a patient who. had gotten one of these organs on the. black market and uh he looked me in the.

eye and he said. um. you I know you're judging me but what. would you do if you if it was you or. your loved one and uh you know you know. that they would be dying essentially in. the U.S there's 17 people every day that. die waiting for an organ 17 people every. single day that would wait wait wait. wait for years their organ never happens. never comes and then they die so that's. why black market exists because they're. desperate people out there who. desperately need an organ and know that. they're going to die if they don't have. one and so that's what he was saying.

like what would you do in this situation. I was like yeah 100 I don't it's a very. good question I have no idea what I. would do would I buy an organ for my kid. if he needed a kidney and he was about. to die would I buy it on the black. market I think that's the questions that. I I think are important to be that I ask. and that the show asks of people where. are they getting these people. so the wrecker bismuthor said a lot of. the people that he the victims were. actually migrants so we spent time in. right on the south of the Darion Gap do. you know what the Darian Gap is no it's.

the most dangerous Lawless part of the. world one of it's the only part uh there. there's basically a road that connects. all the way South America up to North. North to Canada and there's one patch. where the engineers will never be able. to construct a road which is this Darian. Gap it's a massive jungle with horrible. conditions uh very wet and right now. full of cartel members that are preying. upon the migrants that are crossing that. spend days sometimes even weeks trying. to cross for you know it's up hills and.

muddy and people die of dehydration and. they're killed by the cartel women are. raped it's a horrific horrific Journey. so we spent time filming right on the. south as they were about all these. hundreds of migrants who were about to. make their way into the Darian Gap to. try to make it to the United States and. uh and that's where he said it was. really horrible stories as you can. imagine right people traveling with. their babies with their kids and they're. about to go through the most horrific. experience of their life and dangerous.

um and people you know families get. separated kids lose their parents it's. it's a horrible horrible situation and. uh and so this this with salora the. wrecker was telling us how that's. because if they go missing nobody. reports them it's like the easy prey. right and then we were able to interview. a policeman who actually corroborated. um what we were saying he didn't want to. be on camera because it was too scary. for him because he was afraid the cartel. was going to go after him but on he told. us essentially uh with a mask he told us. yeah I know that this trade is happening.

right here and that the migrants are the. victims. it's really awful it's horrible horrible. horrible so they find these people they. find their blood type and they do all. sorts of tests on people. um and they find out if they're good or. bad for the certain organ and then not. all not not all the organs are coming to. the U.S some of them stay in Colombia. for whoever pays more in Colombia or. Panama or other countries around there. are Mexico and some of them particularly. the stuff that is being harvested in.

Mexico either American patients go down. there and get their operations done. there usually that's how it happens it's. not like the organ travels to the United. States the patients go to these places. to get their organs and one of the guys. we filmed with was this amazing guy. called Garrett Rowe who had spent has a. kidney disease and for five years has. been waiting for an organ he's young. 30-something year old married amazing. guy and has to spend half of his day. linked up to a day out to a machine to. dialysis machine and can't you know.

can't work can't sleep well it's a. horrible way to live and he knows that. the maximum the usual average life is. seven years so you don't live much past. seven years with this condition and so. he had like two more years to go if he. didn't get a kidney and he and uh so we. filmed with him before and then the good. news of the story is that he just got a. kidney through a triangle where his wife. wasn't able to donate to him because. they're not the same type but she was. able to donate to somebody else who. eventually donated to him it was like a.

try it's called a I can't remember what. it's called but a charity donor triangle. or something like that a donor Circle. and he was able to get a kidney but he. was one of the people we asked like. would you consider the black market he. says if a few more years passed by if. I'm at the edge and I know I'm about to. die a hundred percent. but of course there are people willing. to donate their or to sell their organs. they don't have to be killed they're. actually people willing to sell their. organs you go online and you can find. people all over the world saying I have.

a you know I need money I have a healthy. kidney I'm willing to sell it oh boy. yeah whoa I know that's a dark sorry I. didn't mean to bring it down no no we. brought it down the whole day. this is what's the nature of your. business when the listeners are cutting. their wrists right are there any happy. stories other than the surrogates well. the babies yeah. but I think okay but I think that. ultimately I'm not I want people to tune. in you know at the end of the day anyone.

watches traffic doesn't come out of. traffic saying oh my God that was most. horrific depressing because people keep. on watching we have a lot of fans. because there's also always or a lot of. times there is I'm trying to find the. humanity of course in the record it's. impossible to find their Humanity but. again at the end of the day I think the. message is that in all the majority of. the people that I meet there is a human. a Humanity that can be found and there's. a common ground and I think that is so. much that is what's missing from public. discourse when it comes to everything we. live in the most divisive era ever in.

history it's a horrible time where you. can't talk about anything everything is. politicized there is so much judgment. constantly people there is no incentive. or or no one is trying to understand. everybody's always trying to judge and. the show is completely the opposite we. are trying to understand even the people. that are the most stereotyped uh people. in our society the criminals The Outlaws. we're at least trying to understand. because without understanding them. understanding is not condoning but. without understanding them we will never.

understand their motivations and without. knowing their motivations will not. prevent these black markets from. existing I think we what you're. providing is a window into a world that. most people don't experience and by. looking at it from that perspective you. do get a chance to recognize that if you. were in that situation what would you do. you would probably be involved if you. were one of those kids that's involved. in that cocaine trafficking thing that. you studied like what what did people do.

what what would you do if that was you. and if you were in that situation with. no other ways to get out right that's. what I love about the show it's such a. great conversation starter for all of us. what have the been the opportunities. we've been given and what are we doing. with the opportunities we've been given. yeah and what yeah what would we do if. we didn't have those opportunities and. we were born in their situations yeah. well I appreciate you very much and I. appreciate your work it's it's you have. a very very hard job I mean it's it's.

one of the most difficult and dangerous. jobs in investigative journalism I. really think that thank you Joe thank. you for being here thank you very much. so much for having me I always love. talking to you thank you bye everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].