Joe Rogan Experience #1638 - Dr. Shanna Swan

[Music]. hello. hello welcome to the show thanks for. doing this thanks for having me. i'm very concerned with what you're. saying um your book. countdown says that the modern world is. threatening sperm counts. altering male and female reproductive. development.

and imperiling the future of the human. race. that's my story and i'm sticking to it i. believe you but i'm scared. i think we should all be kind of scared. now what is it. specifically about the modern world that. scares you. oh gosh a whole bunch but what i write. about in this book. is the problem with. the decline of our reproductive health. and the chemicals in the environment. that we're surrounded with every day.

all the time that are playing a big part. in it. not the only part but a big part in it. and so they're playing a part in. affecting our hormonal production is. that what's going on. yes that's actually what a good part of. what they do they affect. they interfere with our hormonal systems. in various ways. so they could increase production of a. hormone. like a pro-estrogen they could decrease.

say an anti-androgen decrease. testosterone. they could mess with our thyroid hormone. and so on and so forth. so they change levels but they also. change how they're transported. and they interfere with making them. available. to other parts of the body basically. and you got it right i mean that doesn't. sound. so scary to people but the consequences. sound really scary. which is that we're you know. by every measure our sperm count.

our miscarriage rates our fertility. rates our testosterone levels. they're all going south if you will. at the rate of about one percent per. year and. specifically which chemicals are. responsible for this. alteration a whole bunch of them. and as a group they're called endocrine. disruptors. because they disrupt the endocrine. system right. and um so.

i spent a lot of time studying one. particular class of those which have the. ability. to lower testosterone and the reason i. did that is because i'm interested in. reproductive health. and testosterone is so critical as you. know for. men and women's reproductive health so. that class is called. phthalates it's a terrible mouthful. to say phthalates right um. and they sound weird but they're very.

very common and. if you gave a urine sample today. and send it off to the centers for. disease control you would see. that you have a lot you know not only. phthalates but. other chemicals and plastics and other. chemicals in your body right now. you could do that it would it costs a. little bit. are we getting these from food are we. getting these from water. what are we getting these all of the. above all of the above but. the phthalates um are. probably mostly coming from our food.

and that's kind of surprising um do you. want me to tell you how yes please yeah. okay so um. let's think of a little experiment so. go into a hospital into the neonatal. intensive care nursery. i'll come back to the food um and. there's a baby lying there and that baby. has a lot of. lines coming into her body okay and. that's.

that's delivering food nutrients. oxygen whatever the baby needs okay. and the tubes are soft. squishy plastic okay so as the. food nutrients comes through the tubes. goes into the baby. the baby metabolizes them goes into the. urine because they're. water-soluble and then we get the urine. we measure and we can see what's in it. and the amount of phthalate that's in.

that urine. is exactly proportional to the number of. lines coming into the baby. so that if you understand that you. understand how. food could be contaminated with. phthalates because milking machines have. this and. you know all kinds of processing. machines have this soft plastic. so this stuff is coming into the food. somewhere between the time it's picked. and by the way phthalates could be in. pesticides as well. i'll tell you why in a minute um and.

then. they're introduced not only through. those tubes but also through the. packaging. they're wrapped in in soft plastic. sometimes. and then in our homes we might cook in. microwave in plastic for example all of. that. just it's not doesn't stick to the. plastic it's. not chemically bound hops into the food. gets into us. gets into a pregnant woman's womb. affects. the offspring and i hope to be able to.

tell you how that how it does that but. it. it's that's what i've been studying for. about 20 years. so these plastic covers. that you like if you buy food and it's. wrapped like if you buy like. peppers or something like that and. they're wrapped in plastic. that plastic is leaching onto your food. a certain amount of these phthalates no. matter what it. different plastics are different and i. can't speak to all plastics and some. people. take a lot of care to wrap their food in.

safe plastics. what are safe plastics yeah so um. it's a changing landscape as new things. are introduced but. there's an old saying which i think is. pretty much still true. which is four five one and two all the. rest are bad for you. what does that mean it means that if you. had a. plastic cup here we could look at the. bottom of it and you'd see a recycling. code. you've seen those right yes in the. triangle there's a number and that. number is one two three four five six.

seven. so if you wanna know is it is it um. jamie doesn't have one on his. uh maybe it's in the plastic somewhere. else sorry you have to look at the. bottom up there it is yeah. plastic bottle. it just has the symbol it doesn't have a. number on it well some do and some don't. but um four five one and two all the. rest are bad for you. that's pretty easy right so um. unfortunately the wrappings. on the you know peppers and so on don't. have a number on them.

but by and large if it's. um by and large i can't say it really it. really varies but i do know that. anything. that comes in plastic you do not want to. put in the microwave absolutely do not. work oh. yeah really so microwave foods that are. in plastic containers. no no bueno no bueno take them out. put them in ceramic put them in um glass. is really good um and in general if you. can get plastics out of your kitchen.

when did all this come to light when did. people start understanding. the the negative consequences of. plastics. and your food um. well they came to understand it first in. animals. um because that's the way science works. you know first you do animal studies and. then you try to replicate them in yumas. right. and so um in around 2000. they did some experiments where they fed.

a rat food contaminated with phthalates. and then they looked to see how the. offspring developed. right and what they saw was that the. males. were born different. than the females and different from. unexposed males. do you want me to tell you how different. yes please. so this will really interest you i think. what um. what happened is so let's go back okay.

so. before the phthalates before you know. early in pregnancy. the genitals are just a single ridge. same in males and females. undifferentiated. okay and then at a certain time and in. mice in rats it's 15 to 18 days of. gestation. the testicles start making testosterone. and then that gives the signal. to produce the male typical genitals.

so if they don't have the testosterone. there will be ovaries and if there is. testosterone. they'll be testicles and so on and so. forth right and that. migration requires testosterone at. exactly the right time. and the right amount it's very. delicately programmed okay. so if that happens if everything goes. well. then the penis will develop it'll have a. certain size.

and then there's something which is very. key to to my research which is. something you might know by the name of. the taint. that taint or we call it anagenital. distance. yeah it's not a real it's not really a. technical term is it. but any genital distances yes but taint. solaris. listening to a phd right well i'm saying. that because i'm talking to a lot of. people. who might not know the area. known as the okay yes um known.

on the street as the tank the streets. and um. or the gooch or the grendel or gooch. i've never. known that's the gooch you know about. the ghosts yeah actually i just saw. someone the other day didn't know what a. taint was and they're like oh you mean. the gooch. i didn't i've never heard the gooch yeah. i thought the gooch was like a baseball. player. well it could be that also but isn't. there a guy named maybe he's named after. it. sorry and also abc have you heard abc. abc no i have not heard that. how does that one go ass ball connector. oh the asphalt connector. okay yeah okay for a woman.

yes you can imagine yeah it's not called. an abc it's not called abc. okay sorry so here you got this distance. and. um it's been measured in animals for. like 100 years. and what they use it for was first to. just sex the animal so. the litter is born there's a lot of. little pups they want to separate the. males and the females because they're. going to do different things with them. and they just hold them up by the tail. and they look and the reason you can do. this is because in the mail. it's much longer it's 50 to 100 percent.

longer. now this is stop and think about this. there's nothing else in the body that's. that different. between males and females in terms of. size organs yes but size no. you know our heights don't differ by 50. to 100 percent or weights nothing. nothing it's this is it this is the. the mark is that in all animals it's. almost all mammals. really the hyena's a little different we. could tell yeah though i know about.

those you don't know those you have a. whole bit about them. yeah um so you know they're mad the. females are masculine so they have a. longer. agd right but most. for most mammals it's this way okay. including humans so here's this. little pup that's born and he's if he's. unexposed he'll have a good you know. standard. penal size and agd and he won't have any. malformations of his penis and so on you.

know he'll be. normal but if his mother was exposed to. phthalates. everything can go south and what happens. is the penis is smaller. and the agd is smaller and the scrotum. is smaller. and the testes are maybe not descended. in other words it didn't finish the. process. it was arrested if you will so we. say that that that pup is incompletely. masculinized. now the amount of phthalates that.

get into the pup system in you in vitr. in in utero is that the same is that. possible to achieve those levels in the. modern world with human beings. absolutely it is and i'm going to tell. you. what i did to show that i showed that. wow so when i heard this story. i was flying on a plane to japan to go. to a conference. i was with a friend who was a chemist. for the centers for disease control.

and he said shauna you should study. phthalates. and i'm going why i'd never heard of. them what what why phthalates. and he said well we have been measuring. them at the cdc and they're in. everybody they're in pregnant women and. this group of scientists in the national. toxicology program. has shown that they altered the. development of the male. newborn and. they called that the phthalate syndrome.

that's what it's called that collection. of changes that come about after the. mother has phthalates is called the. phthalate syndrome. so i thought well. does that happen in humans same question. you asked right. so how do you how would you how would. you answer that question. then i'll tell you what i did how would. i well. you would hope that you're not running. experiments like you're running them on.

animals right um are you. measuring the blood of the people. that are having children that have. issues like with with. development developmental issues in the. way the children look when they're born. is that what you're doing it's really. close. so phthalates have the. property that they dissolve in water the. water soluble. and so they go into the urine so for.

this class of chemicals. if you want to know how much is in your. body and my body we've got to measure. the urine. other chemicals um like flame returns we. would look in the blood so it depends. what. what the chemical is but but you're the. right idea look inside the body. okay then rather than looking at kids. with problems. what i did was i just took a whole. population of pregnant women. and i got their urine measured their. phthalates.

got their kids measured their kids. so then i had the problem of what to. measure in the kids. because nobody had made this translation. from an animal genital. developmental system to a human and. so that was kind of a challenge you know. figuring out how to do that. but we did that and we developed this. system for. this exam for measuring all these things. that you measure in a rat. we measured it in our children and then.

we showed and this was big news when it. came out. that the mother's thalats did alter. the generals of the boys. so that was the first evidence that was. 2005. and then we published some more in 2008. and then we. fortunately i got money to do it all. again nih doesn't like. to pay for replication it's very. expensive these things are five million. dollars of study by the way.

well it seems like it's very important. though yeah so they gave it to me. they gave me money to do it again so the. second time i did it better because i. really knew what i was looking for and i. got urine. actually in three points in pregnancy. and i measure the kids exactly when. they're born. so everything was much more precise and. i found it again. so now there's no question i don't think. anyone questions. that at least this class of chemicals.

which we know. lower testosterone alter. the development of these boys. and then i asked well what does that. have to do with sperm count because. actually for a long time we haven't. talked yet about sperm count but i've. been. studying tracing you know what's. happening with sperm count um. i'll tell you the history of that in a. minute but so then i thought well is. this related to sperm count. well these are babies they don't have a. sperm count.

but in rats it looked like. the agd was permanent so if you were. had a short just like if you have a. small hand you know your statures. certain set it at birth right so the agd. if you're born small and my friend earl. grey who is a toxicologist said agd. is forever we don't know that for sure. about humans by the way. but um because we haven't had the 20. years yet but. um if you believe that then a sensible. thing to do. was to take a group of adult men who.

could give you a sperm count. and measure their agd right. and then you could see whether those. with a shorter agd. had a lower sperm count and then you. would have one. pretty solid piece of evidence that. chemicals in the environment. lower sperm cap are you with me yes. ma'am. okay so i did that study too. so i got students in rochester new york. to volunteer for 75 bucks.

to participate and they gave us a semen. sample and they gave us. opportunity to measure them also a. questionnaire. how does one measure kids taints do they. just bend over and you bust out a ruler. i happen to bring it bring you something. to show you because i notice you have. this. measuring device. i thought jamie's volunteered to let you. measure his taint by the way. so um this is not for a baby.

this is for this is for our rochester. young men study. um and it looks kind of fierce um. but we had the points taken down. yeah i used one of those to measure uh. pool cue tips there you go. all right so you know all about it yeah. turn it on you want 13 millimeters. that's what i like. but only for. so look um i also brought you a little.

diagram. so you see where we measure okay but we. can't show this. i don't know so the calipers are in. they're in millimeters or in inches or. both you both you can. yeah yeah and and so oh boy you got a. diagram is there a chart online i could. look up like a. how about i just hold this up okay yeah. that works too yeah. all right. can we have a selfie with you and me in.

that picture yes ma'am. okay all right so what i wanted to. so when i published this the uh the. headlines were. size matters but it's not what you think. right. right yeah and so i got all these people. asking me. what should it be what's good enough. what's big enough. so i did this translation from the. millimeters for you so. here it is the two inches is. at is the median okay okay.

and in this population. um here's the kicker if it was less than. two men who had less than two inches. were seven times more likely to have a. sperm count. in the sub-fertile range i can tell you. what that is. as men who had an agd longer than two. inches. wow seven times. it certainly is related to sperm count.

and then another study. in california showed that infertile men. in an infertility clinic versus men who. had come had borne a child. had smaller. taint lengths when did. this stuff start getting into our food. supply. does that is that been estimated so. the growth of these chemicals. um tracks with the growth of.

the petrochemical industry because. they're made from petrochemical. byproducts okay so if you look at a. curve. of the grow it starts around the 50 1950. okay. so back in 1950 you have people. loving science jumping on the science. bandwagon. there's this better living through. chemistry that everyone's talking about. and everybody is just wanting everything. made of plastic. you know it's the new it's the new craze.

it's the new you know. and and it just took off it went faster. than a straight line. you know exponentially up and so. somewhere in there. it started having an effect but where. we're not sure but i did look at the. decline in sperm count over time so we. could look at that. as an indication that this is not the. only thing that's affecting sperm count. by the way this. these phthalates but that's one. where i feel i can say this with.

confidence because i. measured those babies and i you know i. did it. i did the science and i did it again. [Laughter]. and other people have done it and and so. it's. it's i believe it's solid and. um that's just one example of the many. chemicals. that can affect our hormone system well. it's very frightening because. that i don't i mean that's not a. reversible thing. that's correct that is absolutely.

correct so the development. the stunted development of these. children is permanent and. it's probably incredibly widespread when. you think about the use of these. plastics and the amount. i mean the amount of plastics you mean. people have plastic cups and plastic. plates and plastic this and plastic that. and tupperware and. except for me yep calipers i can measure. pool cues and taints. [Laughter].

so this is uh. is this well known i mean this it's i. haven't heard this before. and i'm wondering is this because i'm. ignorant of this. or is this because this is i mean you. were saying this was all discovered in. the early 2000s. and your last study was 2005 is that. what you said. no the last i mean the first study was. 2000 2005. that was the first one the um animal. studies were earlier but. that was the first human one and they've.

been going on ever since. the problem is that we. don't talk about the consequences of. this. we as a society we don't talk about. sperm counts are going down testosterone. is going down. you know we're having more and more. children by assisted reproduction. i don't know about you but i mean do you. know anybody who's had. trouble having a child yes every. everybody says yes it's quite a few. people but it's gen in general.

i notice it's usually older people that. have had a long career they've had a. career. and then when they get into their late. 30s or their 40s then they decide to. have children it's very difficult. yes aging is definitely a problem. but it's not the only problem and there. are many. young if you talk to your nice nurse. that i forgot her name. mercy mercy she told me about two of her. young friends who've had trouble having. it's not just the it's the it's the. older ones you know they're more. prevalent so you hear more of them. but young people too are having problems.

and. it's it's everywhere and it's increasing. so. um i think now we're going to start. paying attention because we're feeling. the impact. you know yeah until it comes home to. roost. as you say it's not going to make us. change anything but i think. this might yeah i was reading something. about lowered. testosterone counts and that lowered. sperm counts. is happening with people and they were. trying to figure out why.

but they had not made the connection to. your work it was just an article. about trying to recognize what's causing. this trend. so listening to what you're saying. it really hits home it's this is that's. terrifying because. i'm thinking about how many people this. affects and how many people. consume things that are either wrapped. in plastic. or they microwave things in plastic or. they drink. bottled water we stopped drinking. bottled water here a while back because. just because it was wasteful right and.

i'd heard about plastic leaching into. waters and how. you know that something could do. something with add estrogen to your body. or something like that i'm like well it. just seems like a bad idea to just. drink out of plastic all the time and. then they said it was a bad idea when. you leave like we lived in california it. was hot and if you had a water bottle in. your car you should never drink it after. it's been sitting in there. the same thing yeah yeah but i didn't i. never. made the connection to the developmental. cycle of a child. that's child is the most sensitive.

organism it affects. adults too but because it's there's just. so much going on there right everything. is developing then. that's the most critical period and like. you say it's forever. so let me give you a good example of. this smoking. smoking is not a good thing for. reproduction it's not a good thing for. sperm count okay. if the mother smokes then. on the average her son can lose 40 of. his sperm cap.

if the father smokes in that period. before. he conceives the child there's 60 to 70. days that the sperm is being created. in that period he's vul that sperm is. vulnerable. to what he's exposed to like smoking so. then that child has also about a 40. lower sperm and that's. not fixable however if the man smokes. himself his parents didn't he did.

he might have a 20 reduction and then he. goes off and then he's good to go. so it's very different if the exposure. occurs. in utero or postnatally or in childhood. or adulthood yeah so. it's the unborn child that we really. need to protect. the most um yeah. this is really scary information and i'm. wondering. why this not this is not more popular.

like why why isn't this not on the news. first story like this is this is. affecting the development cycle. of how many children i mean is where are. we everyone. that's crazy it is crazy and um. it takes a long time to get these this. word out and i wrote countdown. for this reason i've been talking about. this to. my peers at meetings conferences. writing papers i've written over 200.

papers and say this but. it's a very small circle of people let's. know each other and know the facts and. that that's where it stays. in order to get it out i have to talk to. you i have to talk to your listeners i. have to i've given. well over 100 interviews in the last two. months i mean i'm just. saying this to everybody i can because. it's it's got to get out there. i just can't believe i haven't heard it. before that's what's so. terrifying to me when the pitch was when. i received the pitch. i read the breakdown of what your work.

was and. what you discovered and i was like why. don't i know this. how come i don't know this this is crazy. like this is. what it's called okay let's just talk to. maybe i'm maybe this is. grossly exaggerated maybe but no it's. under. exaggerated i mean or it's it's. under-reported rather it's definitely. under-reported. i just don't understand how it could be. this seems like a significant issue. it is a significant issue and hopefully. more people are recognizing but look.

people don't if if you have a problem. with your. cholesterol i'm sure you don't but. suppose you had a you know have your. cholesterol checked you go to a cocktail. party you say i went to the doctor i had. a high cholesterol. i'm gonna not eat this and this you. wouldn't say. i went to my doctor and have a low sperm. count right. right people don't talk about this they. don't talk about their reproductive. health and here's. one of the surprising things is. that low sperm count that's related to.

phthalates. that man is going to die younger. nature doesn't want him around. it's it affects the whole body he's. going to have. likely to have more heart disease and. most likely that is what's going on. right like the body. has with with a low sperm count body the. body is obviously damaged by this. process in the womb. right and longevity vitality just. everything has to suffer i mean have you.

made a connection with. this and depression or with. anxiety or any other things that are. affecting people to disproportionate. amount. i haven't looked at that but i can tell. you it affects libido. yes right but that is one why i ask. because. there's a gentleman that's a friend of. mine named dr mark gordon and he's. worked with a lot of people with. traumatic brain injuries and one of the. things that happens with. damage to the pituitary gland is a. decrease. in the amount of testosterone that's. produced by the brain and the testes and.

then. what happens after that is severe. depression and this connection between. severe depression and the lower. testosterone is pretty significant. he's done a lot of work with this group. called the warrior angel foundation with. another friend of mine andrew marr and. they have worked with these soldiers and. now. he's also done some work with football. players and fighters. and a lot of other people with head. injuries and he's shown this direct. correlation between severe depression. and lower testosterone anxiety a lot of.

like mental health issues. i would imagine that these kids that are. born. with this disruption in their. developmental cycle and they have. lowered sperm count like. i bet everything is yeah everything's. decreased everything's a mess. yeah i i would i'm definitely going to. follow up on that and look at that. i can what we've just you know we. followed our kids our kids are now. in our latest study um nine years eight. nine years old. so they're not they're not there yet so.

i i don't have those. endpoints but we do know um. that when we asked for example by the. way women need testosterone too. yeah um and it's. related to women's libido so in our. study we did ask the woman. about her sexual satisfaction frequency. and so on. and higher levels of phthalates were. associated with lower. sexual satisfaction and. um you know and it's of course it's.

related to erectile dysfunction which by. the way is now. you know rapidly rising and and. testosterone. replacement is being used by younger and. younger men. um so it's it's a big thing it's. effective. affecting all of our you know um. reproductive health you know. is this in other countries as well yes. have they measured this. in different countries like countries in. the developmental world and.

the countries where they use less. plastic versus countries where they use. more plastics. um no i don't know. of a study like ours in. a developing country but we have studies. in other countries for sure in europe. um but if you one measure of where it's. a problem i would say is where is sperm. count. declining and. i mean the kickoff for this book.

countdown was. a paper that we wrote in 2017. in which we showed that sperm count in. western countries. had declined kind of catastrophically. so let me just tell you the numbers okay. think back to 1973. that was the first that's the start of. our. trend and at that point the median. that's the middle. of the distribution was 99 million sperm. per milliliter that's a.

good healthy sperm count. 73. at the end of our study period. was 2011. in those 39 years. it had dropped from 99 to 47. yikes over all western countries. all western countries yes average. overall yes. wow that's a fif more than a 50. decline in under 40 years.

that's crazy yeah thank you. i would imagine this is just i keep. repeating myself but i'm sorry. i would imagine this would be a big news. story i. i don't understand why you have to come. to some meatheads podcast to explain. this. to people that that's when i'm getting. the word out on things like that it. really scares the out of me. because i'm like how is this not being. picked up by major. news organizations and 60 minutes and.

all these different programs why are. they not sounding the alarms we. we need to figure this out and we need. to figure it out now. right because it right what if it keeps. trending down this way. it is it is so what we did in our curve. we said okay that's 40 years. what about if we go 30 years maybe it's. slowing down. nope 20 years slowing down nope 10 years. nope we saw no indication that the trend. was slowing down it's going to have to.

let me just point out. because if you bring it down to zero. just think what that means median of. zero. means half the sperm would be negative. counts would be negative. not possible can't have a negative right. right so it's gonna have to just think. about the curve coming down. coming down towards it's gonna have to. flatten out there'll be none. there'll be no sperm you'll have a zero. sperm count. i mean if you're if you're if it's. really dropping down by. it's basically 50 percent in the time.

period from 1973 the 2011 as i would you. said. yeah that's bananas i mean yeah the fact. that that. can even happen and not there's not. alarms being sounded i know. we're changing human beings absolutely. like what it means to be a human being a. developing human being is a different. thing now. right because of poisons right wow. that's really scary it's really scary.

when you think about. that what you're saying about people. having a hard time reproducing. and where this could lead to a dramatic. drop-off. in the population like we're worried. about overpopulation right. but if this is real the children that. are being born today. if they have this issue and then we're. looking at them. 20 years from now the reproductive. you know sort of cycle starts kicking in. in terms of like them having babies and.

raising families like what's the numbers. going to be. what are they going to be for their. children right. wow and here so another thing to think. about. so a mother is exposed to some. phthalates other chemicals the phenols. that line tin cans and the flame. retardants and the pesticides they all. they're all bad they all. can do this different in different ways. but let's just talk about this.

uh phthalates so the mother is exposed. to the phthalates. and she's carrying let's just say a son. in the womb and then he has. within him what's called the germ cells. of his sperm. right so that that in that he's. she's exposed the child is exposed and. the next generation is exposed. so from one person being exposed you're.

exposing three generations. so you're right to say think about the. later. you know the kids coming and the kids. coming after that. but here's the good news should be some. good news right. yeah the good news is that in a. very elegant study. in the university of washington pat hunt. showed that. if you have a guy mouse. who was exposed and had impaired.

fertility and sperm count. and then you cleaned up everything about. his environment. and that and for his child's environment. and his child's child's environment. in three generations we can recover. reproductive health but what happens in. three generations. if we don't clean everything up then the. trend continues downward. right and how do we clean things up. that's the real question if this all. this stuff comes from. petrochemicals and and plastics that's a.

significant part of our world that's. right and also a part of the world that. has a very strong lobby. right that does not want a decrease in. sales. absolutely right and they're probably. have has anybody fought this has anybody. debated you on this or does anyone deny. the the data no. not yet wait till that podcast right. yeah i'm sure there'll be a lot of. pushback. from your listeners but but um.

there's okay first of all. we can do better one place. let me just say we used to do terribly. with drugs. the regulation of drugs was terrible. that's why we had thalidomide babies you. know. and and other terrible breakthroughs and. and then the fda got it together. and learned how to regulate drugs and. we're. we're pretty safe now and we know for. example how to test vaccines and so on. and so forth. so we can work toward.

a viable regulatory system if we want to. so i believe that. in europe they're many steps ahead of us. because. they have instituted something called. reach. now under reach if a guy. manufacturer wants to put a chemical. into commerce into our plastic bottle. into a. personal care product where they are. also by the way. um he has to show that it's not.

harmful before he does that there's so. there has to pass a series of tests. in this country we don't have that. regulation in this country. it's put it in and we'll see if it's. harmful. no prior regulation required. you see so it's really really different. the bottom line is like. we have only like 11 chemicals that are. not allowed in our personal care. products. in europe they have eleven hundred.

they also don't allow they don't allow. commercials for drugs. we have a lot of screwed up stuff over. here right so so. you know what we have to think about is. how do we get. angry enough and concerned enough. to change the regulations so that we're. protected. know what what can be done is that have. has that been looked at. well two questions first what is.

happening to women. and what is happening to female babies. we're talking about lord sperm count. what's the effect on. on female children so. this delicate testosterone balance that. i talked about. can go the other way for females but. that's not through something like. phthalates it's through other chemicals. possibly. um we just published a paper that. and this early i'm not gonna you know. this not the same weight of evidence at. all as i have for the phthalates but we.

just. published two papers in which we showed. that when mothers were exposed to higher. levels of a certain pesticide. which is um in roundup which is have you. heard around glyphosate glyphosate. yeah so that that the that a. gentle distance in the girls was long. was more masculine and that was shown in. rats as well. so i that may go away this was the first.

study was a small study. i don't know that that's going to stick. but that's the kind of thing that could. be going on that there are chemicals out. there. that alter increased testosterone. they're called pro-androgens and and. they. can mess up females in sort of in the. opposite direction. but it doesn't have that same effect on. males correct like gly. glyphosate no glyphosate doesn't no i. don't think so. not not in our you know our kids so um.

the animal date was a little not clear. but but. in our case we didn't see anything in. the mills but um. the point is that there's lots of stuff. out there that's messing. it's messing with our hormone systems. and so. that's where we should be looking we. should be looking at you know what's. going on. out there that we're taking in all the. time by the way. right we call them everywhere all the. time. chemicals you know because they're just. coming in we can't we can't stop and we. don't know.

we don't know what's in our bodies. there's no and you know what. it's it's not fair you know that we as. consumers should have to worry about. this i don't think. right i mean why do i have well it's a. complete failure on the part of the. regulators. right the people that are supposed to be. watching out for the general public. and not allowing these things to get. into our bodies and not. just the fact that roundup is still. available the monsanto continues to sell. it and. also the fact that it.

clearly is terrible for people when it. gets into your body it's not. it's not a benign thing whatsoever right. and that's just one right what other. things about. what are affecting the development. developmental cycle. oh my gosh. um so. there are you know there's there's the. chemicals that are in. uh coatings just to say.

you know coatings of can uh teflon. frying pans. coatings of um your jacket that you. wear in the ring you know repellent. those coatings and they're also on paper. you know keeps the grease from going. through to the box when you buy a pizza. those coatings are also hormonally. active and. very very prevalent i haven't studied. those myself. so i don't want to talk a lot about. their effects but i know they have. reproductive effects. i know they affect for example.

fetal growth um so so rain wear. like that kind of stuff yeah yeah. the rain the repellent the repellent you. know anything. that puts a barrier any barrier a. chemical barrier. they're called um the pfas. sometimes they call pfas and pitfalls. they're different classes of chemicals. but. perfluorinated compounds then there are. the. phenols the bisphenols.

which by the way um you probably. did you ever try to buy a bpa free. bottle i don't know if you ever tried. yes yeah yeah right so the label will be. fair-free so. what happened was when people got really. upset about bpa. it had a lot of reproductive effects and. um. it um so they took it out. and that's good but what happened was. and this is. happens over and over and over again in. chemical cycles. they put something else in they put in.

bpf. like frank and people s like sam. and bpf and bps are aux particularly bpf. is um equally if not more. risky and then bpa and the bottle says. bpa free that's true but it doesn't. say phenol free right. right so i think that's a dirty trick. and and we call it um whack-a-mole.

yeah what can the general public. do to eliminate as much of these. harmful chemicals as possible. oh it's a big job um for one thing i'd. say. by countdown and look at the several. chapters where we go into detail on. things to avoid. um but um i could say. you could think about thank you. think about um walking.

through your kitchen and looking for. plastics and trying to. swap out ceramic and glass or metal. not for the microwave of course but and. in your bathroom to look at your. personal care products. they won't say salads by and large. because you're not consuming them i. don't know why they're not. required no i don't it doesn't say. phthalates on our. spaghetti sauce that has phthalates in.

them either. um we can come back to that um but uh i. don't actually know what the regulation. is i know. for sure they don't have to be labeled. in fragrance products because those are. um trade secrets. if you but buy a jar of spaghetti sauce. that's in a glass jar. you're still getting phthalates probably. yes from the tomatoes the packaging of. the tomatoes. probably from the processing so. when you go from a tomato to a sauce.

you have to process it and so that. processing. introduces phthalates if you go think. about a. cow this is different but it's the same. principle. so the cow is being milked maybe this. cow is on a wonderful farm with. you know the picture of the farmer and. the grass and it's an organic farm and. and everybody's happy and then he milks. the cow. or she milks the cow through a milking. machine. that has tubes what are those tubes made. of plastic plastic.

and so they go into the milk so. um i actually i'm hoping to do. a systematic study which i'm calling. farm to fork. where we take a bunch of products see. what's in them at the farm. see what's in them at the table and see. where it's introduced along the way. because nobody's done that we don't. really know where they come in. so we don't really know how to keep them. out. yeah and that would be if you're trying.

to eat organic. that would even in that sense if you're. having milk. and it's coming through tubes if you're. having anything that's wrapped in. plastic. even if it's grass-fed organic. there's still you're wrapping it in a. plastic yeah. but i would say the number one thing is. do not microwave in. plastic is that accelerated or is that. just like a. way that it gets into the food much.

quicker or much higher doses. yes because it's so warm yeah and it's. you know it's. um and and those little packets. that it's sealed in are not good. yeah so we have. a lot to do to keep these out of our. bodies um. and like i said it's not. it's not really our job to do that. well it's i don't think most people have. any idea.

that this is that big of an issue and. when you're saying all this stuff and. i'm. i'm terrified of this because i i feel. like. and i'm glad you wrote this book and i'm. glad you just did these studies. but i feel like this has caught people. completely off guard and then. i'm picturing a supermarket and just. going down the road looking at like. packages of lettuce and things wrapped. in plastic and. meat wrapped in plastic and chicken and. like wow. you know probably those single layer.

wrappers that those things are coming in. i don't know i haven't tested those and. that's one of the things i want to do. with this project. but probably those are not so bad i. think the the ones that have been sealed. in or worse. um and ideally i would say. if you can go to like i go to the. farmers but i live in new york i go to. the farmer's market down in union square. i buy stuff you know i take a bunch of. carrots i take it home i put it in the. fridge i eat it. that is that will definitely not.

introduce anything into the product what. what happens to. fully developed people that encounter. phthalates if they encounter them in. large doses like say. like someone like yourself like if you. start started eating microwaved food. and you've got a large dose of. phthalates in your diet what would. happen. i don't think we know uh we haven't. studied the effect of adult. exposures of somebody my age but if it's. a couple who's grown up but wants to.

go to say assisted reproduction um. beautiful series of studies at harvard. showed that. the amount of chemicals in their urine. and blood. when they come in for their assisted. reproductive procedure. influences how that procedure comes out. so how many eggs. can be retrieved how many are implanted. how many. actually progress to a live birth is. related. to the chemicals in their body at the. time they start the procedure. so that's an effect of of an adult to an.

adult. of an adult exposure you know that i. know of for sure. um i don't it's very possible that. these are related to aging. and diseases of aging they certainly. affect the brain we know that. from our studies so. but you know every one of these. questions. requires like i said five million. dollars. and you got a lot of chemicals and you. got a lot of questions so we've really.

got to get busy. and you also have a lot of companies. that have a vested interest in. continuing business as usual and they. want to deny. as much responsibility for. having these chemicals in our bodies as. they can. yes and not to swap out the ones we put. the finger on with other ones that we. haven't tested yet. and what you're talking about too is. that to turn this around you. in general you're talking about multiple. generations.

in order to bring the the developmental. cycle back to normal. that's right that's crazy. i wonder if there's a trend in terms of. like uh looking at young male athletes. like if wow you're looking at male. athletes. and phthalate in the development and. what. what's possible i think that'd be. a fabulous study a fabulous study.

what in general what is the response. been when people find out about this. and when when people read the data and. see your book. and read the information in it. many people have a reaction like yours. this is really serious we have to take. this seriously we have to do something. about it. and there are people i'm sure that don't. believe it. are there people that have been. dismissive. um there have been some people that have.

been dismissive. um of the kind that say there's too many. people in the world anyway. who says that i can show. those people two people too many people. in the world anyway but. imagine that that's your solution. there's too many people in the world and. so let's ruin babies. so that they can't reproduce they're. depressed. right and have small taints. and penises by the way it's just all. this sounds really. horrific i mean but really that has been.

the response that some people have. that that this is probably what. maybe they look at it in terms of like. nature has a way of working itself out. whether or not it's voluntary or whether. or not it's just. an incidental part of the system right. and that's essentially what's going on. here this is an incidental it's an. this is nature's way of dealing with an. overpopulation problem. some people say yes it kind of makes. sense that this. does sort of balance itself out in some.

very bizarre way. but you know what it's not just humans. do you know that many many species on. the planet. have the same problem and and we can. cause these problems in animals with. these chemicals in the laboratory. so when you say it's nature's way of. working things out well is that working. its way. out for the species that are becoming. endangered. and well i think they're just the side. effect of nature working as things out. with us. you know if our production of food and.

packaging of food somehow or another. gets to these other animals that's just. an accidental and it's not our. responsibility. oh it's certainly our responsibility. it's all of our responsibility but it's. really the responsibility of the people. that are packaging food it's really the. responsibility of the people that are. involved in getting the stuff to. us and how are they getting it to us and. how the phthalates getting to us. if there was any other thing that. someone was doing. that turned out was affecting the entire.

human race because of their business. just fill in the blank like if we found. out that you know. whatever it is cell phone use or driving. a car. looking through a looking at your. dashboard. was somehow or another affecting the. reproductive cycle of the human race. there would be drastic consequences. people be talking about this. i would imagine maybe maybe. um this is not everybody's favorite. topic as i mentioned. and and it's by the way it's painful for.

women especially let me just we haven't. talked about that but. um you know that. for centuries women have been blamed. for the fact that a couple can't get. pregnant. the guy assumes he's good to go. until he needs that you know to prove. himself. and then if he can't it's got to be on. her. most men don't have a clue about their.

sperm count i don't know about you. but um i can tell you. i think that every man should know his. sperm count. not only because he might want to have a. child but because. would might tell him something about his. overall health by the way. but so here's this woman that's being. blamed she's also being. and by the way infertility we now know. is about 50 50. in terms of blame i don't think blame is. the right word that's a weird word.

word right but you know you can find a. female cause about a third of the time. a male cause about a third of the time. and a third of the time. it could be both or you don't know so. that's kind of 50 50. and and then you go if they manage to. conceive. then a high percent of pregnancies are. have miscarried. the miscarriage rate is probably over 50. and that is also attributable to. phthalates you think. no i don't i think it's um it's going up. it's going up it's the same rate as.

sperm count is going down by the way. what do you think is causing that i. think it's a lot of chemicals that are. causing that different chemicals. different chemicals and. um i studied some of them i studied. chemicals in water at one point. i studied solvents in water and showed. they were related to miscarriages. man-made chemicals are not great for our. reproductive health. what chemicals are associated with. miscarriages. um the well i can't say that off the top. of my head all of them but.

the ones that i've studied when i. studied that those were the. chlorination byproducts so when you. chlorinate water with high levels of. certain chlorination byproducts. and also solvents that are used to clean. chips and. other you know certain heights so. chlorination meaning. tap water or also meaning swimming in. pools that are chlorinated and getting. it through. your skin my study was on. homes tap water and homes but but. probably there's some risk from.

from pool has anybody studied. the miscarriage rate of. like active swimmers not that i know of. it seems like that would be a big one. right because you're you're most. certainly if you're. training in a swimming pool or swimming. in a daily basis. you're you're getting a lot dosed with. chlorine every day. right especially if it's a public pool. yeah. so here this the big picture is that we. have these. thousands of chemicals that we.

can't get a handle on there was a law it. was called the toxic substances control. act and it was published in 76. and at that point when they put that in. they said okay. here are thousands of chemicals they've. been out there for a long time. nobody seems to worry about them they're. all okay. they were called grandfathered in they. were not regulated. we have that legacy on top of the lack. of testing of new chemicals.

so there's very little regulation of all. of these chemicals that are. circling in our environment and entering. our bodies. and i my i and my colleagues you know. are few. uh compared to the problem and we need. more resources and we need more people. worrying about this. and um i think the first step is to just. have. people like you and your listeners and. people i talked to. on all these shows have gone on you know. recognizing. thinking about it just thinking about it.

you know. uh wow this seems to be a problem maybe. i should worry about bringing this and. this and this into my house maybe i. should read these labels. maybe i should you know because it. hasn't been on our consciousness it's. another way of thinking. there's a decrease in lifespan that's. associated with large population centers. whether it's uh you know you know los. angeles or new york or living but living. in urban areas there's a decrease in. lifespan. they think it's somewhere in the. neighborhood of 10 years and they don't.

know if it's because of brake dust or. pollutants or particulates in the. atmosphere they don't know what it is. but has there been a study. on well i'm sure there probably hasn't. on sperm counts. in rural areas as opposed to sperm. counts in. in high population areas i actually did. that study. oh okay but the answer is. not what you'd expect oh really yeah so. in this study. um we got four groups of.

people and that turned out to be men and. women and i can tell you why. um and they were um. one of the centers was columbia missouri. where i was living. and that's rural it's agricultural. they grow a lot of corn soy there and. one of them was minneapolis. urban and then there were some i'm just. going to talk about those too. and in those two centers we saw. that men in missouri had half.

as many moving sperm as men in. minneapolis. did they associate that with farm. chemicals. yes that's the next study i did so then. i took men with good semen quality. and bad semen quality and measured how. much. of the pesticides were in their bodies. and there were significantly more. pesticides. in the sample of men who had poor semen.

quality as. compared to good seeming quality now is. this because is it. airborne is it like we're talking about. enormous cornfields and. glyphosate and all these other different. chemicals or. they work their way into the air itself. because they spray. or water water runoff from the fields. into the water and then it pollutes the. water supply right or. air i i couldn't i didn't study how they. were getting this but they weren't. workers they weren't. agricultural workers and they weren't.

living on farms they weren't farmers. just regular they're just regular folks. living in that area. including me um so that was. pretty dramatic um that is very dramatic. yeah. i would i i've driven past corn i have a. buddy of mine who lives in iowa. and uh you know you you drive down there. and you see these enormous fields. like huge huge fields of corn and and. i've always wondered like where's all. that going like. for sure they're spraying this stuff and. the workers who are spraying and getting.

on you know that they're even. more highly exposed and those those. studies of high exposure. you know here's an example there was a a. pesticide that was used. um to grow pineapples it was um. it killed nematodes and um. dibromochloropropane and. so there was a picnic and the wives were. talking and. i we haven't gotten pregnant we haven't. either. really and gradually they did a study.

of these men who had zero sperm. zero zero. and then they banned dbcp. and in about i think four to five months. the men's sperm. returned so that's that's the thing. about adult exposure. you can reverse it so that's that's kind. of the good news. that you can reverse it the only good. news all day.

wow but i i don't underst i mean i don't. know when you talk about mono crop. agriculture on large scale. like these enormous corn fields i don't. know how they do that without pesticides. yeah i honestly don't know but i. hope there's a way and i think there are. people that are. working on that you know regenerative. farming and so on i don't know. the thing about regenerative farming. though they don't they don't do monocrop. agriculture that's true the whole idea. of regenerative farming is that you try.

to mimic nature. right the cows eat the grass they poop. the poop becomes the fertilizer the. fertilizer helps the plants. this is not what you see when you have. these enormous corn fields. so maybe those enormous cornfields are. not good for us they're not good for us. right yeah i think that's pretty safe to. say they're not good for us. it's just not it's not a natural scene. like when you see the amount of. manipulation that's required to grow. a thousand acres of corn or whatever in. one spot like that's not you don't see.

that anywhere. in nature right or a thousand cows. in a yeah yeah a small enclosure yeah. it's. we're so strange human beings are so. strange like what we've done to in the. the. to the environment in such a short time. that what's. crazy to me is if you go back to you. know 18. 20 200 years ago there's none of this. yeah there's none. right zero so in 200 years we've. completely ruined.

the ground we've completely. changed the way we cultivate food we've. added all these chemicals to our. environment to our water. to our air changed sperm counts. change reproductive reproductive cycles. and reproductive quantity. very strange and i would say. post-war is where it really took off. post-world war ii. when the use of plastics increased yeah.

well the. what's terrifying to me is like if we. can have that significant change in 200. years what's possible in another 200. years. and is all this happening exponentially. which it probably is. the declines that we see in miscarriage. and fertility and. sperm zone are not exponential they're. linear. um but the growth of the plastics. industry is. exponential how come the exposure is an. exponential if the growth i don't know. i don't know i don't know.

i i don't maybe it isn't exponential. maybe i. misspoke it's it seems to be faster than. linear though. yeah it's is it so. would you like to take a quiz sure okay. i love quizzes. i'm good so we have something called the. jizz quiz. okay but you you have to go you have. your phone uh yes. okay so and your listeners can take it. too. okay yeah so so you go on to dr.

shawna swan all right this is your. website this is my instagram. oh okay i'll go to your instagram dr. shauna swan. yeah please. and you should see under the highlights. on the left you should see the jizz quiz. oh it tells me i have no internet. connection there's no internet in here. well you might have it i might not be. logged in so maybe you can do it.

i gotcha do you see a page that looks. like this. uh yeah i have the night mode on yeah. but i got you yeah. so you see the jizz quiz this guy's. there. you're great the jizz quiz click on the. jizz quiz young jamie here we go. come one come all you're hilarious. okay what is your for what's your. fertility iq many men and women. feel fairly confident about their. fertility intel. but research shows a surprisingly high. percentage of people don't know as much.

as they think they do. are you one of them answer these six. questions and find out. well i've reproduced so i'm pretty sure. my sperm works. but i could be wrong as far as sperm go. which of the following can contribute to. whether a man is. likely to be considered infertile. one his sperm concentration a excuse me. b. the size shape of a sperm c the way a. sperm moves swim. d all the above um i would say d.

is that correct yeah okay click that. click that. you have to click d yeah d can you do. that. this is your instagram you can't really. click on that that's. like an instagram story okay okay answer. d. aside from a total absence of sperm. total bummer we know. no single sperm parameter can uh predict. that a man will be completely infertile. turns out. when the sperm concentration motility. the sperm's movement or swimming ability. and. morphology the size and shape of the. sperm are measured.

each one matters in identifying. infertile men but there. is an additive effect. when one of these measures is in the. infertile range a man is two times more. likely to be. infertile as a man with none of these. measures in the infertile range. when two measures are in the infertile. range a man is. five to seven times more likely to be. infertile. and when all three fall are subpar. his odds of being infertile are 16.

times higher so you're really. messed up yeah that's not good okay. what's next. okay question number two does the size. of my taint matter well we already know. that. totally yes wow a lot of people don't. get it. that's people with little taints they're. in denial okay. the answer is yes while the official. term for taint of people that are. listening it was like 40.

said no or 40 said yes 60. said it didn't matter but it does matter. well the official term for taint or. gooch is annogenital distance acd. size really does matter the length of. the guy's acd will reflect his exposure. we talked about this okay we already. know this one let's go next. number three what proportion of. infertility cases can be attributed. attributed solely to the man a. less than 10 percent b about 11 to 24.

c 25 to 33 d. 34 to 45 i'm saying d. we can't click on it we'll let yeah. let's go. answer c interesting less than i thought. infertility used to be considered mostly. a woman's problem that seems so sexist. yeah um in recent decades has become. increasingly recognized that. male reproductive issues can cause. approximately one half to one third of. infinite infertility cases i would.

assume it was more than that. same proportion as female reproductive. challenges do. the rest are believed to stem from a. combo of male and female factors it. takes two to make things go right oh. it takes two to make things go wrong. here we go testosterone replacement. therapy can increase sperm count. in men with low testosterone levels. that's false. good only 47 think that oh they better. check it out they don't they don't. understand that your body produces less.

when you exogenously introduce it go up. a soccer breather. uh it's true that a connection between. testosterone level and sperm count but. testosterone replacement therapy doesn't. help sperm. here's why when a man wears testosterone. patch or applies testosterone gel to his. skin the hormone. enters his bloodstream and his. testosterone levels go up so far that's. good right problem is. his brain interprets this rise as a sign. that plenty of testosterone is available. and sends signals to the testicles to. stop making more.

this may cause a decline in sperm. production not what a guy wants. okay next question number five. besides a lack of exercise which of the. following lifestyle related factors is. associated with male infertility. a smoking cigarettes b alcohol sugar. sweetened beverages. c lots of tv d all the above most. certainly d. right okay d this may seem like a whole. lot of bad news. but the upside is oops.

okay no it's okay yeah that's all right. uh this means that if a man cleans up. his lifestyle gives up cigarettes. heavy alcohol use sugar sweetened drinks. and couch potato habits and takes steps. literally. to slim down and be physically active. his sperm count. and his sperm integrity may increase. significantly. next a man's age can affect his female. partner's miscarriage risk. true 82 percent agree. true research suggests that for men ages.

40. and older their female partners have a. 60 increased risk. of miscarriage compared to the aspiring. dads under 30. this may be largely because with. advancing age there's an increase in the. presence of abnormal genetic material. within the sperm at any age a pregnant. woman is more likely to miscarry when. sperm is faulty. but neither partner may realize this. that's a miscarriage of. reproductive justice that's a big thing. with men who drink heavily. correct yeah yeah okay number.

seven oh that's it the jizz quiz how'd. you do. i got them all i'm a jizz wish. [Applause]. i think i cheated though i cheated. because i knew that's because of you. yeah so yeah yeah i aced the jizz quiz. i don't know if i should say that yeah. it's very funny though it's very catchy. so people can take that oh let me make. sure i follow you on instagram. definitely need to do that thanks for. playing great bam thanks for playing and.

then. there's the book so um all those. factors uh i mean all that stuff's very. interesting. um but. what like now that we know this how do. we get this word out other than this. podcast. what can we do um. how can we let people know how big this. issue is. any ideas well. this isn't this is just a little piece. but i'll tell you that i have.

we're going to make a film i have. several producers give me a documentary. yeah yeah um that's good get that on. netflix or something yeah. freak people out scare the out of. them maybe even lie a little bit. get arrested i'm just kidding what else. you got there you got. um more quiz notes oh yeah i actually. have another quiz here. [Laughter]. but these are what we call revelations. okay. and these are things that you might not. know try to talk into the microphone. just pull that. yeah yeah these are these are things you.

might not know um. and you can just turn them over the um. some of them are about the man some are. about the woman some are about both. um so there's a they're in the book. okay but um try just turn them over. you just so what do i do turn them over. and read the revelation. well start it doesn't matter doesn't. matter. those are the men the male ones on top. yeah on top okay the bottom was the. female ones. yeah okay it was once believed that each.

sperm contained a miniature. preformed human being called and how do. i say that word homunculus. homunculus really that's how i say that. it's spelled anima macule. that's oh oh anima cult yes that's. another name right. there's an altered. [Laughter]. okay it was once believed that um i. would say that's true. well these are all true okay this is not.

a fruitful so this is just. fun facts oh okay more fun. just to go go on that one for a minute. so this guy who. developed the microscope was the first. person to see this and he. he saw sperm he was the first person to. see his own sounds like a little person. swimming around. no but he imagined that of course yeah. well. look at that guy that's hilarious. there he is and he probably thought they. looked just like him. it's a little tiny me trying to.

reproduce. right yeah um. that would be do you i'm sure you're. you're aware that uh sperm wars. controversy. you re where aware of that book sperm. wars. yes remind me there was a guy that. theorized and i don't think it was. supported by um facts or further. research. but people started repeating it was one. of those things that people would repeat. at cocktail parties or whatever. and you'd be like wait a minute what and. i remember this is pre-podcast.

i remember being super skeptical but the. idea was that there was more than one. kind of sperm. and there was a sperm that was attacking. the other sperm and killing. sperm of other men right yeah i've heard. that too. and um that that actually. there are physiologically the way the. woman is shaped. and um her vagina is shaped and uh is. to make it easier for the earlier. sperm to kill off the later ones that. are coming in after them um so i think.

there is something to that but i. like the sperm do kill because what i've. heard is that. there's only one real kind of sperm oh i. don't know about the two kinds but it. may be. that the there's some battle there. definitely is a battle to get. you know to the target right there's a. race there's a race. but i don't think they're killing each. other i don't think there's a war going. on in there you know i don't know. what's google sperm wars just google's. the book right now the one one claim. that already sounds a little.

uh skeptical yes uh male masturbation is. said to discard old dying sperm so that. ejaculate contains younger sperm so that. it will stay active inside the cervix. longer. with more of a chance of being present. during the window of ovulation. that could be that could be really yeah. because. you know you're producing sperm all the. time right right right so. and certainly the ones that are. ejaculated are going to be the ones that. are already. ready and get rid of those and have make. room for the new ones i is that logic. should a man.

masturbate before he tries to impregnate. his partner. i'm not going to give any advice on that. but you already gave a jizz quiz. you could do whatever you want now. i i'm pretty sure i read that it was. debunked that this. that they've never found yeah studies. i think what they were saying they've. never found any real physiological. differences. in in sperm like there's not like a. different kind of sperm. right i yeah i i don't know that.

i've heard there's been a different kind. but i've heard that maybe the timing. of the sperm and the you know the the. place in the. you know in the race so to speak. might affect you know might affect the. survival of the later. here's one these days 26 of men. who present to doctors with erectile. dysfunction. are under age 40. wow. that's crazy that's crazy and you think. that has probably something to do oh. absolutely i mean testosterone is going.

down worldwide at the same rate as sperm. count. all right here's another one um. each time a man ejaculates he releases. as many as a hundred million sperm. that's true. unless you're tom segura and then it's. probably 1100 million sperm. did you know that no no you do. [Laughter]. did he have a sperm cancer it's an. inside joke tom segura apparently. has uh an enormous quantity to his.

ejaculate. all right he was alerting us to this but. quantity he is not a liar. he's an honest man that's volume yes. the volume and the count are. not the and the concentration are not. the same thing maybe with other men. not with tom sakura. okay you got a good sense of humor. right you're great. the testicles of a healthy fertile man. produce. 200 million to 300 million sperm cells.

each day. again see tom sakura because it's quite. a bit more than that that's about. overkill though huh. yeah tom's all about overkill. men with low sperm counts and infertile. men. have a shorter life expectancy that. makes sense. yeah that makes sense it just means it. makes sense that you're less. there's less vitality there's um there's. also. uh there was something about um.

something i read recently about the. immune system. and muscle quality like the amount of. muscle mass a man. carries on his body is a direct. correlation to his uh. the health of his immune system really. yeah i uh. i'm looking up uh the here's an article. from science magazine. no evidence for sperm wars yes. [Music]. great looking through here though to. test the idea yeah. an ecologist took sperm samples from 15.

men. and combined them in various ways an. ecologist what a weird. evolutionary ecologist he took a bunch. of jizz and just. combined it in a soup and nothing. happened it's basically what they found. out. yeah well they probably maybe the sperm. are smart. and they realize like hey or maybe they. were dead by the time they got out. or maybe they only do it in yeah in. place. in the critical places right in that. warm environment yeah i don't know. maybe okay here we go again uh after. sexual intercourse sperm can stay alive.

in a woman's reproductive tract for five. days i've heard that. that's crazy that's a lot and you know. what it means is that there. what people think of as you know that. you have to get it all in one day. is not correct yeah that also makes. sense that if a woman is not ovulating. but a man has sex with her before she's. ovulating. and then all of a sudden she gets. pregnant that's what it is. the sperm the sperm stuck around sperm. was like i'm not giving up yet. i'm telling you this door is going to.

open men who take testosterone. supplements can suffer from reduced. sperm counts we already went over that. one. um. the riskiest period for a man's. reproductive development is. while he's in the womb you know that now. yeah we know that now. that's that's very kind of shocking this. is all shocking. that everything you've said is shocking. today a man who ha. man today has only half the number of. sperm his grandfather had.

yeah you never met my grandfather tell. you that. i don't know what that means it's gonna. be funny it didn't work out uh a female. is born. with all the eggs she will ever have. approximately one million to two million. eggs i've heard that. but see how what the imbalance is there. that's a big imbalance yeah yeah. here's this guy mating 100 million every. day and you know. girl has two million for life yeah if. she's lucky and they die off for her. yeah pretty quick yeah in some parts of.

the world. 20 20 something woman today is less. fertile. than her grandmother was at 35. wow so it's not just delaying. your first child until you're older. that's making. fertility decline this is something that. has to do with chemicals. right all right. 50 to 60 of pregnancies that ended in. miscarriage are chromosomally abnormal.

wow that's high. 50 to 60 percent yeah. a lot of those are very early maybe the. woman didn't even know she was pregnant. right she might have just had some. spotting and then. yeah right yeah and that because you. know you don't want to. put all those resources into a. chromosomally abnormal. fetus this is bananas worldwide. fertility has dropped more than.

50 percent over the past 50 years well i. told you it was the same rate of sperm. decline. i know that's it's just weird worldwide. to read that. yeah so back in 1960. the world the number for fertility is. the number of children that. a woman has yes so back in 1960 it was. five. across the whole world so on average. people had five children. right and now they have. less than two and a half now is that.

from choice or is that from being. fertile. we don't know but it does directly. correlate with all the chemicals that. you're talking about. and when would sperm count so it's when. when. and here's what's happening in some. countries. it's a lot worse so like in singapore. into the microphone. so like singapore and um korea. they're down to one but is that by. choice. no no they and they can't.

the government is like subsidizing them. having children. paying them to have children building. apartments for them to go into if they. have children. they can't get the number up whoa. did they have a higher use of plastics. over there. um i don't know why it's more difficult. there. i know that um. yeah i don't know i don't we don't know. have a lot of. information about the distribution.

of these things across the globe except. to know that they go everywhere. um so i i don't know what the. explanation is for that very low. fertility rate in asia but i know they. are extremely concerned. once a child is born is there any. potential way. to mitigate some of the effects of these. chemicals that. in utero none that we know of. so it doesn't close the door to some. invention or some. information in the future no no it's but. right now right now.

we don't know anyway. all right i'm keep going the riskiest. rooms for your fertility. are your kitchen and your bathrooms not. your bedroom. that makes sense the products we're. talking about. this is all stuff we already know damage. from a man's. or pregnant woman's exposure to. problematic chemicals are uh.

and lifestyle and lifestyle influences. can harm the reproductive health of. multiple future generations that make. sense we talked about that yeah we. talked about that. so now we're here it is all you know it. all right. some experts are now considering. reproductive function as a. sixth vital sign for help for health. that makes sense right. yeah and that's why i'm saying everybody. should know theirs. it's it's a thing though that people you. i think you're correct in that.

men don't want to admit that they have. uh low testosterone or low sperm count. or low vitality. it's a pride thing that's right yeah. they're less men they're they feel. themselves to be less. of a man right yeah yeah but on the flip. side a woman. feels something like that also sure she. feels like she can't produce. um well then you have the added effect. of the man blaming her. right right because i i get like if the.

guy has sex if he iman. manages to get erect and ejaculate he's. like i did my part. right like guys aren't really checking. to make sure that they got good stuff. uh increasing numbers of fish frogs and. reptiles are being born with ambiguous. genitalia including both. ovaries and testes alex jones covered. this. remember he said the frogs are turning. gay that's. literally because of pesticides right i. wouldn't say they're turning gay i'm. sorry they are. ambiguously sexual yes yeah yes and.

that's correct he wasn't really saying. they were. he was just saying yeah um. homo sapiens are already fit in the u.s. fish and wildlife service standard to be. considered an endangered species. really yeah but there's so many of us. well there's almost eight billion of us. even though like. we're declining in fertility we're. increasing in numbers. the criteria if you i i opened the book.

because i thought this might come up. the place where i have that oh okay you. want me to read it sure okay. all right so um. oh you have the bookmark that's right to. this place. in case it came up um so some scientists. suggest that. um uh it's hard to fathom. but an argument could be made that homo. sapiens already. fit the standard for an endangered. species. based on u.s fish and wildlife.

services requirements okay how would. that be. well of the five possible criteria for. what makes a species endangered only one. needs to be met. to be called endangered okay so the. first. is that we're arguably experiencing. destructive modification. or curtailment of our habits this is. wording from the fish and wildlife well. what. this means that we're messing up our air. our food our water. in a way that um just modifies or.

destroys our. uh habitat and we're definitely clearly. doing that clearly. we talked about a lot okay the next. thing is the next one. um. the second is that we have. quote an inadequacy of existing. regulatory. mechanisms bingo we talk about that. the third one is that we where. there there are man-made factors. affecting our continued.

existence that's three. so we meet criteria for endangered. wow even though there's so many of us. even though there's many of us. this is so hard to swallow this is uh. like you're not painting a very rosy. picture of the future ma'am. uh we all males and females start life. with the same genital apparatus yeah we. all know that that's why guys have. nipples right. that's that single that that yes that.

guy's had influence. but we that's that single ridge i told. you about that starts out. the default is female by the way right. it's a testosterone. doesn't come along then it's female. development so that's. that's what that's about and. last but not least declines in sperm. count and testosterone levels and. increases in testicular cancer and. miscarriage rates are all occurring. at the same rate one percent per year.

wow i call it the one percent effect. shannon this is all very disturbing it's. all it's really um. there's no rosy outlook on this because. when i'm looking at. what potential steps can be made to. mitigate it i see. all these obstacles i see lobbyists i. see enormous corporations i see habits. that people have had. they'll be very difficult to break i see. people getting skeptical. even when i read the breakdown of this i.

didn't think it was as bad as you were. gonna. as you described it i thought like oh. maybe we can just. stop using these plastics and. your testosterone will come back i. didn't think about the developmental. cycle of children. in the way that you've described it and. now i'm genuinely terrified. because i don't see people changing. their habits that much and it seems like. this is going to cause. it's going to you need a monumental. shift right a gigantic. change in order to do something about. this.

is that safe to say yes how do you feel. about all this. like after you've done your research and. granted. you've lived until you started studying. this in the early 2000s right this is. when it started to become a factor. that's not that long ago now all of a. sudden you have this view. of humanity and the future. and it's got to be pretty disturbing to. be the per you're the paul revere of. tiny testicles and taints. i love that but um.

jokes aside i am. very disturbed but i feel i guess i'm an. optimist. at heart you know i still believe that. we can. do something about this and we got let. out of gasoline. right yes we do make changes we've got. pretty much asbestos under control we've. got uh mercury out of thermometer i mean. they're just small things but we've got. a hour off of. apples so when when people if.

if you multiply that by you know. hundreds of times. having people go after specific problems. that they're concerned about. i think we can do this we've done. amazing things you know we produced this. vaccine in a year. right when people said it wasn't. possible you know we put the. lander on mars you know i'm and i just i. have a lot of. faith that technologies that i haven't. thought of. you know chemicals that i have that.

haven't been designed yet will come in. and take the place of these chemicals. well i hope so too but. i'm hope it's not like bpf's right you. know. right the solution is worse than the. original problem that's right. i'm um i'm just skeptical because i. think so many industries would have to. make a big change and it would cost them. so much money that they're going to deny. this as long as they can. that's my concern like look we know. that glyphosate's bad for you yeah. monsantos never stop selling it. but they have in other countries other.

countries have put the brakes on it. right. they have it in america right and we. know it's not good for you. so we have to as a society recognize. that we need more governmental. regulation. yeah and a lot of people don't want that. a lot of people don't want that. yeah yeah um. this has been a really um confusing. podcast. because it's just it's not just scary. it's scary and i don't. sometimes you go oh we have to go do.

this but this one is one where like oh. there's so many problems here there's so. many problems to stop. i don't i didn't know that it was as bad. as it is. well i'm actually glad you're disturbed. because you have a lot of followers. and maybe they will listen to this and. think about this. and you know help to. turn this around i by the way i ask. people to use the hashtag count me in. count me in yeah that could be used that.

could be hijacked. you should be careful with that one. count me in is not very specific. i might have just started something. accidentally count capital m capital i. okay yeah i don't think the capitals. matter with hashtags. no they don't think no i don't they. don't um is there anything else you. wanted to. talk with us about that you need to get. the word out on. i don't think so i think we covered. pretty much everything. um i think it's.

the next problem uh you know. i just say in closing that. we had denial of. climate change and then some recognition. of climate change and then finally. people saying. there's things we can do about it and i. see the same pattern happening here. initially there was a study saying sperm. count had declined. in 1992 which was dismissed.

i was actually skeptical of it myself at. first um. and and then when my paper came out in. 2017. it went viral it was the 27th most cited. paper in the world that year. it was on the cover of time and you name. it. so and then people didn't say sperm. count has not declined they said yes. we do have a problem but they didn't. make the next step which is. doing something about it and i think the. same progression.

will happen here as has been happening. with climate. well i hope so i hope we i hope we can. become aware of that i hope we helped. um sound the alarm with this podcast. and if anybody wants the full story and. all the information do you have an audio. book of this available as well. yes countdown it's available right now. ladies and gentlemen. please go get it thank you very much for. being here i really enjoyed it i really. enjoyed talking to you very funny. and uh and very insightful and brilliant.

and so. i really appreciate you so thank you. very much thanks for having me it's my. brother. great my pleasure all right bye. everybody bye.