Joe Rogan Experience #1456 - Michael Shermer

okay here we go. three two one boom and we're live mr. Shermer how are you sir I'm fine thank. you I'm still breathing it's good to see. you again we were just saying before we. got started that the last time we saw. each other was we went to dinner about. six weeks ago and you're thinking that. that might be the end of that kind of. stuff that was my last time I've been in. a restaurant actually and well I you. know I think restaurants of course will.

reopen but I think the kind of social. distancing we're seeing now it's not. going to go all the way back to the way. it used to be I think we may quit. shaking hands and hugging to the extent. that we used to although I don't think. we'll ever ever go all the way to the. say the Japanese model of social. distancing but I think there'll be. modifications like that the other thing. I've been thinking about is the change. of remote say meetings and education I. mean I'm in the studio here in Santa. Barbara where I've been recording. lectures for my Chapman University class.

skepticism 101 and I just upload them. and share them with the students and and. then they watch them and then I send. them a quiz they take the quiz they send. them back now that's not a complete. replacement of a brick and mortar. building with a small class seminar. discussion say but but it does you know. not adequately replace a lot of. traditional education that you don't. really need to be in a classroom for do. you think that this is preparing us for. the ultimate where we embrace the. symbiotic relationship that we have with.

computers and become one with the. machine I mean it seems like we're. worried yeah we're coming closer and. closer to some sort of an electronic. community it's weird yeah I think was I. think it was happening slowly already. and this is kind of a jump-starting it I. mean already tech companies like zoom. are having to you know ramp up their. game because you know the systems are. crashing because pretty much everybody's. doing zoom meetings now yeah and then. they have to it and they have to adjust. the zoom bombing because of Moore's. there's no people like that out there. they just want to screw with you and so.

I and then I was also thinking about. things like theatres you know - what why. do we need to go to theaters anymore I. mean I love watching a movie on a big. screen but you know the the screens we. have at home now big television screens. super high-def. you know why not just watch movies at. home well I don't think we're gonna have. much of a choice I was reading an. article this morning about AMC Theaters. might they might have to go under. because of this really yeah that's not. good I mean you got to think these. companies are accustomed to having a.

certain amount of money coming in every. month and they never no one anticipated. anything like this we're all businesses. are just gonna shut down gyms I mean how. many gyms are gonna go under how many. yoga studios many I mean it's a it's a. strange and trying time for people who. have small businesses for sure yeah one. of my cycling buddies owns the LA cañada. theater complex and and of course rents. out the space to different retailers. including the theater theater managers.

and anyway he was telling me that you. know they normally pay ninety three. thousand dollars a month in rent but you. know they bring in like seven and a half. million dollars a year or something so. it all balances out but they just told. him we're not gonna make our rent this. month so he has to go to his mortgage. company you know the bank they were he. gets pays off his mortgage and so I. can't pay you this month because these. guys can't pay me and okay so multiply. that by you know 10 million or 100. million or something and that's kind of. what we've been going through yeah and I. don't really understand the economics of.

this stimulus package of how they're. going to be able to distribute it and. sort of balance people out it seems like. it's just a small band-aid on a very. large wound yeah well of course the. government can't just print money right. indefinite indefinitely then we're gonna. get huge inflation and then and that. could be catastrophic you know so this. conversation that people have been. wanting to have but they get hammered. every time they bring it up I think at. some point we're gonna have to have in. the next few weeks is the economic. trade-off and costs to people's lives. compared to what we're doing with social.

social isolation to save people's lives. yeah and at the at the moment we're in. the mode of there's no dollar amount you. could put on a human life there for. total social isolation no matter what it. does to the economy is what we're gonna. do now well but at some point you know. you know there's a economic calculation. like how many people are gonna die say. in the next year if we never open the. economy of course we will but you know. at what point do you do that you know. the supply chain dries. you can't get not just toilet paper but.

you know food supplies start to dry up. and then you get social unrest and you. know there's risks there too. you know yeah and the idea of putting a. dollar figure on a human life is. repulsive to most of us I think. intuitively in this context but in fact. we do it all the time you know in terms. of like an automobile company has to pay. off the family of somebody who died in. their car well there are people who do. those calculations like what's the value. of a human life and the figure is well.

the high-end figure is about ten million. dollars now after 9/11 the families got. paid off I think it was two hundred. fifty thousand dollars a person times. the three thousand something and you. know so it sounds so cold like who does. those calculations well statisticians do. that sort of thing and attorneys and. accountants work on that and judges and. juries have to face it and you know. that's kind of a normal part of other. aspects of life that we're not used to. thinking about most of us don't think. about it but you know at some point.

that's the kind of calculation we're. gonna have to do for what we're in now. do you think that there's another way to. do this there's there's been some talk. of isolating the people that are high. risk isolating the people with. underlying conditions people that are. elderly things of that nature. do you think that that's a way that they. can move forward yeah for sure but again. people we're you know we have this. egalitarian mode life that doesn't sound. right sounds like a panel yeah some. group of people some group of government. agents are gonna tell us who who's gonna.

live and who's gonna die and that feels. like we're sliding into conspiracy. mongering but in fact that that is what. you have to do is a kind of a triage and. you know South Korea's has been pretty. good about this you know testing. everybody they jumped on it right away. they did that track and trace that you. know they got it right down to I think. it was the 31st patient they found who. had gone to to church services and then. she was in a car accident and taken to.

the hospital and and that's when it. spread from there that that one day I. think it was in late February where that. when that happened and they just jumped. jumped all over it total deaths in South. Korea I think is like two. a couple hundred compared to most other. countries so this is a ways it is and. they've been you know super careful. about isolating people and targeting the. people that most need the tests and so. on and you know that's just the kind of. thing I think we have to do what do you. think about what's going on in Germany. because Germany is very fascinating.

right it's I mean some of these European. countries particularly Italy are. experiencing this very high death rate. but Germany I mean they must have. exemplary health care they must be doing. something right or be robust and healthy. individuals is it a genetic thing you. think is it a healthcare thing because. they have a very low death rate I think. they have a high tight culture a very. tight culture that is when my wife's. from Cologne Germany so I know this from. personal experience with also their. studies Michele gelfand does these.

studies on loose and tight cultures and. that Germany is a very tight culture. that is to say very law and order. law-abiding and you know when the German. government says alright this is what. we're gonna do people do it and. Americans are not that we're much looser. culture more freedom oriented and if the. government says you can't go to the. beach like well the hell with it I'm. going the beach anyway Germans don't do. that and they do have a really good. health care system and they jump right. on it and I think that's one explanation. you know we've seen yesterday this rise. in deaths of African Americans versus.

you know white Americans yeah and having. to do with income but of course money is. just a proxy for something else which. has to do with the quality of the health. care they get the food that they eat you. know how much how healthy and exercise. prone they are not diabetes obesity. these sorts of things you know down the. line when you're attacked by a virus. like that can have an effect on your. immune system and therefore the response. to the disease so I think those are the.

kinds of cohorts we're gonna have to. target to save lives and I think. countries like South Korea and Germany. have been doing that pretty well without. pushback yeah I'm hoping my best hope. out of this is that it's a wake-up call. for people that don't take care of their. bodies the people that get through this. like you you dodged the bullet now let's. clean that diet up let's get you moving. let's start some exercise on a. regular weekly basis get some nutrients. into your system eliminate all the sugar.

and [ __ ] that people eat and you. know and take care of your body and take. care of your immune system let's pump. everything back up to sustainable levels. and I mean that very well could be the. difference between people who contract. this virus and survive versus people who. contract this virus and don't absolutely. I mean how could it not hurt to be. healthy fit and have a good immune. system even if for some reason we can't. find the exact connection to this. particular virus just as a global thing. even if you do all that and it turns out.

there's no connection to this particular. virus there's still a good thing to do. yeah you've been cycling or you know. you're a cycler and so you were actually. riding your bike today right yeah this. morning actually this is really funny. this kind of world we live and there's. no more group rides of course right and. you know moat and all the the big tours. like the Tudor France have been canceled. so there I'm riding along this morning. and I see up ahead of me. TJ van Garderen who's the top American. Pro right now and apparently he lives. over in that kind of Santa Ynez Valley. area and here he is cycling along in.

Santa Barbara by himself so I'm chasing. along to see how long I can stay up with. this guy he's much younger and faster. than me but all of a sudden he just. stops and he picks up and up from the. ground so I pull up and he holds up a $5. bill he goes look I found five bucks. like man it's the little things in life. just kind of make your day he was happy. with the five bucks and I got to say hi. to the great TJ van garderen spent I. don't follow professional cycling but I. can understand your enthusiasm if he's.

the top guy that's pretty cool yeah I. was so yeah so I think you know just. working out every day I mean you. mentioned every week I think people need. to work out every day yeah sure and I. find the more you work out the you know. you don't have to eat as much because. your body becomes more efficient at. processing fuel so I have less desire to. eat really yeah not me baby when I my. god I get so hungry yeah I don't know. I've been trying I've been doing that.

after you were promoting that the daily. fast you know no don't eat from. dinnertime and I try to make it to like. 11 or 12 and if I work out in the. morning. if I go for a couple hour bike ride I. can make it because you're doing. something yeah because they're sitting. around and you're gonna get hungry I do. that yeah I do intermittent fasting I. try to do 16 hours you know the only. time I don't do that is when I have. explosive work that I'm doing in the. morning like if I'm doing my tie or. something like that that requires like a. lot of work then I'll just have a couple. pieces of fruit but I keep it pretty. light mmm but other than that I'll try.

to do 16 hours I'm doing a I do a 16. hour non feeding phase and then just eat. in the other time and your body gets. accustomed to it it's not hard it's not. hard to do because it's just it becomes. normal the other thing I did that I've. been recommending that people that are. not into cycling or something like that. is I got these wrist and ankle weights. just at the local sporting goods store. but you can order them on Amazon just. five pounds each wrist five pounds each. ankle and just walk briskly I just take.

my dog to local park and we just go up. this hill on down up and down this hill. with these weights and you don't have to. run you know I know people don't like. running and I don't like running all. that much but with the weights you get. you know extra extra upper-body and it. works for the big muscles of your legs. you know without you know I know a lot. of people hate running so you know it's. like you don't have to run just walk to. get the heart rate up work the big. muscles and you know circulate the blood. and all the bodily fluids and so on and. that's just good for general health and.

I do think that has to help for response. to the coronavirus again these. populations that are more targeted you. know they you know there's a lot of. obesity and and you know diabetes and. some of these other secondary you know. these pre conditions as they call them. and you know there's this peculiar thing. we're all doing now like what I've done. for years is you look in the obits and. you see okay well this guy he was older. than me or he had this or he had that. doesn't apply to me you know we all do. that with the corona bike okay oh that.

person was old or they had this. precondition and so on you're hope. you're hoping that somehow I'm gonna. dodge that this bullet because of that. it may not be but it's all a game of. probabilities of just stacking the odds. in our favor you know who knows if. that'll make a difference for you or me. personally but on average it's got to. make a difference this is a it's such a. strange virus isn't it in terms of. the way so many people are asymptomatic. yeah so I this idea that it came to. America of what January 28th or. something in Seattle I have a feeling.

it's going to turn out to been earlier. like in December I was reading this. nature paper on the origins of the virus. they were sort of debunking the myth. that it was a creation of a you know bio. weapons lab in China there is that. conspiracy theory which is not. completely crazy because of course there. are there are bio weapons labs that do. this kind of stuff there was that one in. Russia a few decades ago where they had. a leakage but but it looked like I've. read this article twice I don't. understand because this isn't what I do.

but you know they they really showed. that it very very likely made the leap. from probably bats. you know bats are mammals bats are very. response bateau II they're they're very. social you know there's this cave in. Texas where there's like 20 million bats. that live in this cave I mean they're. just pressed in it's like the same. population of Mexico City and they come. out at night and so on and you know. these wet markets and one-china it's. it's not that wet markets by themselves. are bad but you know say you have dead. fish it's a wet market but live animals.

and particularly mammals like bats then. it's easy to make that that leap so you. know the corona buyer it's you know it's. a it's an they call it a novel. coronavirus for a reason it's novel you. mean there's other coronaviruses around. yeah common cold is a corona virus and. you know so there's I have a I have a. feeling Joe we're gonna have this virus. with us permanently I mean this is what. bouchy has been saying that it's not. gonna just go away and then we're done I. think we're gonna have probably a. mutated more modest strain of it forever.

and we'll just have to get our flu shots. for that one every year and and you know. just kind of mitigate it that way yeah. if you've been paying attention to this. these potential remedies like. hydroxychloroquine makes me see packs. and and and zinc what do you thoughts on. that I took it for two days did you yeah. I did yeah. well a couple I know maybe a month ago. now my doc who's also a good friend and. a fellow cyclist he he's the guy that. did my neck surgery you know I had a. fusion on my neck after I had a bad bike.

crash last year and so he's a good. friend and and so he just texts me out. of blue goes hey. have you heard about this. hydroxychloroquine and no one ever heard. of it. oh yeah the you know the malaria drug. okay all right so he works at a big. hospital in La Huntington Hospital and. you know so I could I can understand why. he you know was doing it as a. precautionary thing as a prophylactic. against it and there's some evidence. anecdotal the you know but anyway so I. try he brought me a script I tried it. for two days it's pretty toxic you know.

if you follow the the prescription. exactly you know the chances of having. bad side effects are pretty low so when. Trump says you know what have you got to. lose. of course nothing's risk-free but if you. follow the the exact prescription then. the chances of having that effects are. pretty low unlike that guy in Arizona. that that found it in his fish tank. Wiener here we had some it was some fish. antifungal chemical and he drank it and. died okay you know you can't do that.

kind of stuff but that would apply to. any kind of medication yeah right anyway. so I tried it for two days and I you. know I didn't feel good you know work. out and then I came back one day and my. wife says you know you stink like a. toxin like like poison I'm like okay. yeah good well you're not taken unless. you get in contact right or you think we. could have been in contact well you know. I don't know again it could be that lots. of us that's that part right yeah I. don't know yeah I don't I don't know the.

that's what keeps people up at night. you're lying in bed you're like what. about that guy he was close to me what. about this what about that what if. someone some of the grocery stores got. it and I touched the cart two of my. cycling buddies had really bad colds in. December dry cough fever you know all. the symptoms and they're now saying huh. I wonder if I had it in December yeah. and the reason this is important to know. is because that would increase the size. of the denominator of the equation where.

you have the number of deaths divided by. the number of people that got it and. it's that bottom number we just don't. know because the testing has just been. ramped up so there might be lots of. people that add it in january/february. and they got better we've you know we. just don't know or they were symptom. free and they didn't know they had it or. maybe even earlier say December that. nature paper I reference they trade. about how they do this genetically with. mutations or whatever but to say. mid-november in China hmm so you know. people were coming from China to the. United States and throughout November.

and December so it's entirely possible. it's been here longer and therefore the. death rate is not nearly as catastrophic. as it seems like it could be this is. there a way to test whether or not. you've had it before antibodies I think. there's a test now I don't think it's in. the United States where was this maybe. it was maybe it was South Korea but just. a pinprick and they can tell if you've. already had it based on the antibodies. in your blood that would only be there. if you had the coronavirus I think I.

think it was South Korea that was doing. that and that absolutely has to be done. because we have to know what the number. is yeah and and also if you've had it. and you have the antibodies in your. blood then you can donate your blood and. give it to somebody then that would. sense be something like a vaccine yeah. that's all that's all very promising you. know it's it's really interesting too. because this has become such a hot. political topic you know there's so many. people that are angry at Trump but they. were angry at Trump back when he was.

closing the travel from China which. turned out to be a great idea and you. know Donald Trump jr. tweeted today a. compilation of CNN and all these other. different networks giving out bad. information way back in January bad. information saying this is going to be. fine don't worry you know it's not as. deadly as the fluish worried about the. flu you know don't change your plans. don't do anything so a lot of people got. this wrong and but so many people are.

trying to make this a political point. right now and it's really it's so so. useless. it's you know pointing fingers and. everything at this point in time it's. like what they need to concentrate on. now is just getting masks getting PPE. equipment keeping people healthy if they. can and then educating people on how to. keep your immune system strong and let's. you know let's try to let's try to get. people to understand the consequences of. not taking care of your body this has to. be the worst job in the world president.

no matter what no matter what you do. everyone's gonna have to people are. gonna hate you who would want that job I. don't know because it doesn't even pay. that well compared to other perfections. at the top end of other professions you. know it there's a lot of articles now. about how autocrats around the world. have been taking advantage of the of the. pandemic to increase their power. yes well civil liberties you know in. Hungary and and in Turkey even Israel. China of course Putin in Russia and so.

on and Trump usually gets lumped in. there like he's an autocrat like Obon. and and everyone and and Netanyahu and. and so forth okay so then so had he. closed let's say do the counterfactual. let's say he closed the borders in late. January or early February or something. like this I mean just just just clamp. down on all travel and so on he would. have been totally accused of being an. autocrat he's you know he wants to be a. dictator and look what he's doing. yeah okay so he doesn't do that and then.

he's accused of you know not doing. enough when it looks like we should have. done more and then you know the other. day when he said well I'm not gonna I'm. not going to tell all the governors what. to do you know I'm gonna honor states. rights for now and of course he gets. hammered for that it's like but you know. but that's actually what I'm supposed to. do that's not what an autocrat would do. and all that crap would say yeah I'm. telling everybody what to do right it's. so exact you know yeah you know I think. maybe we should you know drop all the. polarization politically rally around.

the president even if you hate him just. look what happened after 9/11 yeah I. mean Bush was pretty hated by the left. and and most liberals came around said. all right you know what we're gonna. support this guy at least for a few. months until you know we figure out. what's going on here and most of the. Liberal Democratic congressmen and. senators voted for the war and you know. for the invasion of Afghanistan and. including Iraq including Hillary right. so you know maybe we ought to do that I.

know people just can't stand Trump and. just the idea like saying something nice. or supportive we're not being critical. seems hard to do but you know maybe this. is way worse than 9/11 yeah it and it's. it you're what you're saying is totally. correct it's it seems like the. polarization is even worse. then when it was in 2001 it seems like. it just keeps ramping up and Trump is. such a naturally polarizing figure that. it's gotten you know the the left versus. right has gotten so extreme right now.

it's almost impossible for rational. discourse and this is one of the reasons. why it's a good time now to talk about. your book given the devil - I'm just. showing this graph of the people that. self identify as centrist versus now. which is more polarized you have this. two hump camel here and that's from 2019. ninety four two thousand four and then. close to today when did that shift is. that a trump shift that low no no no.

about 2000 well really under Obama about. 2008 the polarization got worse and. worse I mean we can speculate why but. that's pretty much when it happened a. bit around 2004 2005 and it gets ramped. up so just pollsters asking people you. know how do you self-identify you know. centrist far-left far-right you know. strong Republicans strong Democrat. whatever and so that middle ground has. been has been shrinking the center's. have been shrinking and the polls have. been increasing so more and more people. are polarize now you know conservative.

talk radio and television or you know. it's MSNBC you know whatever you want to. accuse the media but but in general I. think we've just been more polarized in. the sense of not just saying well I. disagree with you I think you're wrong. but that you're evil you're you're. you're immoral you know this is you know. the the worst thing that's ever happened. to us and so on this kind of ramping up. of the catastrophism you know it's not. healthy no no it's not you know another.

thing I wanted to talk to you about. Michael is there's an article today in. the Atlantic which is really interesting. it's about technology it's contact. tracking technology and this there's a. real concern about this stuff first of. all the idea is great that if you that. this could free America from quarantine. so this is always the risk right the. risk is just give up a little bit of. your civil liberties give up a little. bit of your freedom and we're going to. keep you safe and you know it brings you. to the old Benjamin Franklin quote you.

know he who would. Liberty for freedom deserves neither. neither or Liberty for safety I'm sure. I've [ __ ] up that quote but this is. technology is very interesting because. they're using it in South Korea and. they're using it in Singapore and I I. the the title of the article in the. Atlantic is the technology that could. free America from quarantine it's out. today and they bring up this conundrum I. mean nobody wants to give up civil. liberties and civil liberties lost or.

rarely regained and this is the real. concern here that if you do allow people. to track who you're in contact with and. make sure that okay you're testing. negative and you're in contact with. people that also test negative so you're. okay you're okay to travel now like this. is you know this is a very weird thing. and it gets us a very gray area how do. you feel about this I feel about this. way I I'm in general I I'm against that. sort of thing I like the idea of privacy.

and that I do have a right to not be. tracked and you know you can't have. cameras in my home or my yard and so on. in general I think across the board. that's a good principle and it follows. the Constitution I think there are times. a national emergency like this of course. there's always the risk that you know. any auto crack and declare a national. emergency grab the power and never give. it back and I mentioned examples of this. before in Turkey say but the difference.

here I think is you know we do have a. constitution we do have states rights we. do have courts that litigate these sorts. of things I could see a reasonable. measure being taken for let's say we're. going to do the following for six months. until we see what happens with this. pandemic and then once that's over then. we're gonna revert back now let's say. the governor or the president says well. I'm not going back well then you have. courts then we and you sue the state or. you sue the federal government for. violations of civil liberties and then. you can get them back right but they do.

never happen we've never gotten battle. what happened to NSA when Edward Snowden. revealed how much tracking is actually. going on I mean that's never been. reversed I know I know yeah I know who's. Terry I watched that show you when you. had. and oh boy that was pretty disturbing. very disturbing it was also disturbing. was that now it's been proven that the. Obama administration lied they lied. about what you know is like just. metadata there's no concern that was not. metadata that they were they were able. to read people's emails right yes and.

you know these this program was started. in a bush and so supposedly when Obama. became president it's like you know the. the transparent president so we're gonna. we're gonna stop doing that well that's. not the case so here's a good argument. for you know WikiLeaks and and the. Pentagon Papers that I recognize is. valuable that we wouldn't have known. that without Snowden or the or the. vetting on papers and you know it's good. to know what you know what your. government is up to and you know you.

know in our mutual favorite subjects of. conspiracy theories you know we didn't. know about a lot of the things Kennedy. was doing and Johnson you know and all. the way back to Eisenhower lying about. the Vietnam War for example until the. Pentagon Papers came out and then in the. 90s the Church Committee on conspiracies. from the 70s a lot of those documents. were released and there was that that. business about the operation Northwoods. where kennedy administration people. brought to him this idea of a false flag. operation over cuba make it look like. the russians were harassing our aircraft.

or our airports as an excuse to invading. Cuba or assassinating Castro and so on. it's like you know like when you had. Alex Jones on he talks about false flag. operations and most of us skeptics go oh. that's a bunch of nonsense and then you. read this these documents that are. revealed in the in these release secret. documents like Wow okay so we did do. that not just that signed by the Joint. Chiefs of Staff vetoed by Kennedy was. like what the hell are you doing you. know and then finds himself dead less.

than a year later right. you know in all the shenanigans of. American intelligent agents manipulating. elections in South American you know. democracies in the money in the model of. well he may be a son of a [ __ ] but he's. our son of a [ __ ] yeah right so we'd. rather said we would rather support the. fascist dictator rather than the. communist dictator it's like what are we. doing doing that anyway right well. that's what we do it's like wait a. minute. does the public know about this to. Congress approve this no okay so you.

know this is one reason people believe. conspiracy theories is because a lot of. them are true yeah not all of them but I. point to with you with the Epstein case. like you were one of the first people I. mean as a literally you're a. professional skeptic and you looked at. some of the evidence you leg up well you. know what this might be a conspiracy you. know and when I said when Michael. Shermer thinks it might be conspiracy. it's probably a goddamn conspiracy.

there's been enough of them I'm still. not sure about that one because after I. posted something about the you know the. two cameras broke or whatever somebody. wrote me from that prison saying all. those cameras are always breaking like. it's a little convenient though that you. know he winds up strangling himself in a. way that Michael battened the the famous. autopsy doctor says is completely. inconsistent with hanging and much more. consistent with someone strangling you. include including the actual area where. he was hanging from supposedly like it's.

consistent with someone strangling you. from behind not consistent with you. hanging by your own weight yeah after. Weinstein got his is Harvey Weinstein. got his conviction I thought oh boy but. they better have a real suicide watch on. this guy because yeah he's he surely has. a black book just as big as Epstein's oh. I'm sure well I think with what he's got. is probably more incriminating to him. though you know I think what he's got is. probably hey I had sex with all these. starlets and turned them into big.

celebrities and this and I bet he. probably doesn't want that out. especially at this stage of the game. nothing I don't think anything he's. God's gonna make him look good and I. think the thing with Epstein is he knew. way too much about too many powerful. people there's just so so many. connections that could be made with that. guy and that you know to this day people. are asking questions that people like. Bill Gates don't want to answer or. Prince Andrew or any of these people. they're like you know I don't want to. talk about this yeah and I didn't hear.

the won't about Gates but Prince Andrew. of course apparently flew on the lolita. Express four years after he was. convicted. okay Wow all right according to the. Daily Mirror or whatever the [ __ ] it was. I know I would I would ask Jamie to look. that up but I've got his computer right. now gonna win your iPad find out if it's. true of Bill Gates Luna Lolita Express. because that's what I was reading today. there people are trying to ask Bill. Gates but it's so hard to know what's.

true and what's not true today that's. the thing is there's so much data and so. I mean one of the things that's really. sad about the loss of respect for. mainstream journalism and mainstream. media is well if we count can't count on. them. then who's regulating the independence. who's regulating these websites who's. regulating these people that are just. you know so-called independent. journalists that are just tweeting. things and finding things putting things. up on their websites it's it's so hard. to tell who's telling the truth and. who's not who I was when I was working.

on giving the devil is do I had this was. kind of a challenge to me because I feel. like there's so much fake news they're. real affect news and and you know and. just bogus theories and particularly in. my areas of you know quack medicine and. cancer cures and now coronavirus cures. you know like Jim you know the old. televangelist Jim Baker was selling. those silver pills that you were. supposed to take silver derivative pills. that were supposed to fight the corona. virus whatever you know so a lot of that. stuff is dangerous to have out there but.

as a civil libertarian I feel like well. but I'm a free speech fundamentalist I. really believe you know people sort of. just lying about somebody or giving away. the nuclear codes or something like that. you know just let a thousand flowers. bloom and just see but you know what. just shine sunlight on all of them and. see which ones rise to the top because. they're supported by evidence there's a. risk to that that is to say you know. people will take bad information and. they'll go shoot up a pizzeria or. something like that or not now these you. know this conspiracy theory about 5g. related to the corona virus that is to.

say the theory is that 5g is causing. people to feel ill to take Cal and that. the government made up the corporation's. made up this story about the corona. virus as a distraction from 5g okay this. is nonsense that's so criminally stupid. you know do you know who Lil Duval is. you know of course not. he's a hilarious comedian. who also has a great Instagram page and. he put something up today he retweeted. something it says if 140 184 countries.

have Corona and only 5 countries have 5g. towers why the [ __ ] would you dummies. why the [ __ ] would you idiots think that. 5g towers are causing kovat 19 it's. that's great such a great thing and and. so many people like oh yeah oh wow and I. literally heard someone say well maybe. maybe the 5g causes the corona virus and. then they spread it to other countries. like oh god you don't even understand. viruses yes. well part of the process but you know.

that was accused with 4G and 3G and you. know cell phones back in the late 90s. and early 2000 there was the scare about. you know holding the phone up to you and. we all started doing that and that this. is maybe causing brain tumors and yeah. of course you can you can find anecdotes. you know this guy spent a lot of time is. cell phone you got a brain tumor over. here on his left temporal lobe or. whatever the problem is well what about. the hundreds of millions of people that. hold their cell phones up and they never. got brain cancer exactly and then. there's that the physical aspects of it.

the the energy from the cell phone. itself or even these 5g towers is not. strong enough to break chemical bonds. like DNA to cause mutations in cells to. then become cancerous there's not a. physical mechanism a and B the counter. examples that you always have to what. about the countries that don't have 5g. okay yeah what about all the people that. you use use these things or stand or. live near self cell phone towers they. didn't get cancer and you know so you.

have to look at you know all the. different options and our focus tends to. be on the one cell so I always use this. heuristic and for my class of teaching. skepticism is a two by two matrix where. you have four cells so I did this with. this there's this documentary film. coming out about horror films that are. haunted are cursed. horror films that are cursed so like you. know the the witch which is the one.

where the actors died in the helicopter. act so The Twilight Zone the moon. and you know The Exorcist and these. other films where bet you know bad thing. things happen to the actors that are in. horror films okay the problem with that. is you're only focusing on one cell that. is horror films that are cursed what. then there's horror films that are not. cursed nothing bad happened to the. actors in those and then there's non. horror films regular films which bad. things happened to the actors and then.

non horror films that are not cursed. right so when we just focus on the one. cell it's easy to find examples that fit. it but something like The Shining which. is a super or scary film you know. nothing bad happened to the actors and. or just take some other film like The. Godfather with whatever that's not a. horror film and nothing bad happen to. the actors and so on so when you look at. all the different options this is just a. way to think about any particular claim. that then there's really nothing left to.

explain because you're just you're just. plucking out anecdotes we love. incidences they really really love. coincidence they're fun because they. love to believe in spiritual connections. and they love to believe in clairvoyance. and they love to believe in haunted. things Jamie pulled up the article it's. actually in the Sun says Bill Gates. break silence on Epstein admitting he. made a mistake in judgment by meeting. with the pedo tycoon it says so there's. no story story about it who knows but. he's he is quoted in there.

yeah I don't know i i i i know i mean. there's i know some scientists write. that yeah because he was he had a way of. attracting famous scientists because he. had a lot of money and he said look i. can fund your lab help help find your. lab to the tune of millions of dollars. you know it's hard to resist that and. then maybe you go down that road a. little bit and then you start hearing. these rumors about his personal life and. you're like no yeah but the money's good. for the lab and you know you know. somewhere down the line it becomes. obvious it was a bad thing and it but.

it's too late you already went down that. road so that you know it's hard to judge. people after the fact and hindsight bias. you know we look back and go how could. anybody have ever had any association. with them it's like yeah but that's you. know we know we know stuff now that. maybe not everybody knew the extent of. it back years ago now. why this book that you wrote giving the. devil is do the the idea is talking to. people whose opinions you disagree with. and that there's a lot of value in that. why did you write that and what were you.

trying to get out of this well in. general I've been kind of a civil. libertarian most of my life in that. respect but but I it to be honest I was. kind of inspired after the episode we. did of your podcast with Graham Hancock. and I've since gotten to know him and I. thought you know I I was not really fair. to that guy I really didn't give him a. fair shake and there's value in people. like him who challenged the mainstream. now it's not that Outsiders can't make. contributions they can and we generally. tend to be skeptical of outsiders.

because they're mostly wrong most of the. time but so are scientists wrong about. most of their hypotheses so I I do think. if you apply the principles of free. speech as originally laid out by John. Stuart Mill in 1859 his book on Liberty. where he said okay look you might be. completely right but by listening to. somebody else it strengthens your own. arguments so like for example I have my. mostly pro-choice students watch ben. shapiro videos defending the pro-life. position on abortion because if they.

can't articulate his position his. arguments and then debunk them then. their pro-life pro-choice position is. not all that strong kay that's the first. one second one you might be you might be. partially right and partially wrong and. by listening to somebody you disagree. with you improve your arguments or you. might be completely wrong and and then. you've you've had a opportunity to. change your mind but but more. importantly still if you silence people. you've refused to listen to them then. what what happens when you take up a.

contrary position you come up with some. idea that goes against the grain and the. norms or worse laws are in place to. silence you now you've just given up. your opportunity to be heard because. you've previously endorsed the idea of. silencing people and and I don't just. mean legally like passing laws although. that's disturbing enough like in many. countries like Canada Austria Germany. Switzerland France Australia New Zealand. it's illegal to deny the Holocaust.

by which I mean if you say well I think. 1 million Jews died not six million. therefore I don't think the gas chambers. were used the way we think they were. therefore I don't think the Nazis had in. a an intentional plan to exterminate. European Jewry ok that's now illegal to. say that. and now I've debunked all those claims I. think they're completely wrong and even. if the people who claim it are. themselves anti-semites you know I know. it's in somebody's heart or minds but. you know let's assume the worst just for. the sake of our argument I would still. defend their right to say it because.

let's say by analogy you know I'm in the. middle of a debate about how many Native. Americans died since Columbus came here. and now the figure is you know I don't. 90 million 70 million 50 million you. know it's debatable but let's say I'm a. historian and I say I think it was 10. million and I think it was mostly by. germs not by guns and steel am i a. Holocaust denier and therefore I should. be silenced or worst jailed for my. illegal hate speech you know and so this. is why I wrote a letter to the judge in.

David Irving's case in Austria David. Irving the notorious Holocaust denier in. England so he flew da Vienna from London. to give a speech at one of these kind of. far-right groups in a hotel somewhere. and he got flagged at the airport you. know they scanned the passport and boom. he's arrested and he was put on trial. and convicted and sent to jail not he. didn't even speak he was just going to. speak hmm and that so that essentially. is a thought crime and so even though I.

completely disagree with their arguments. and I maybe I don't I don't even want to. like these guys because their attitudes. about Jews I don't like that but still I. would defend them so I would apply that. to pretty much anybody who's out there. like that because that's the only way we. can really improve how we think about. things to understand the truth about the. real world is to listen to people that. disagree with you those are the ones. that that the Second Amendment are the. First Amendment free speech in general. is for and I don't agree with that but.

can I give you the counter-argument the. counter-argument particularly online is. that people develop these bubbles they. develop these bubbles where you there's. everyone agrees with your perspective. you isolate yourself. in these bubbles and you know there's. this theory that you can indoctrinate. young impressionable people into hateful. or racist or you know ideologically. disturbing ideas by finding them.

isolated in these thought bubbles if. they they get on to particular message. boards or a particular website where. they subscribe to a YouTube channel or. some video channel then they all meet up. in the comments and they agree with each. other but they're all wrong but they can. find confirmation bias in these these. large groups of people that are also. wrong and they feed off of each other. what do you what do you think about that. it does happen for sure and you know my. my first response is to encourage people.

to get out of their bubble so if you. read the New York Times you should read. the Wall Street Journal and vice versa. now of course that doesn't apply to most. people online but there's new research. now since the 2016 election by a number. of political scientists and cognitive. scientists nicely summarized in Hugo. Mercier's book called not born yesterday. and he shows that those those Facebook. online bubbles against Hillary say or. for Trump or vice versa probably had.

next to no effect on the actual election. that is to say if you believe that. Hillary Clinton was running a pedophile. ring out of a pizzeria it whether you're. whether I convinced you that that's not. true you're very likely not gonna vote. for Hillary no matter what right. somebody that believes that it's already. so far down the rabbit hole of say down. the spectrum of where they are. politically they're never gonna switch. positions and even the idea of just sort. of slightly negative stories about. Hillary or slightly negative stories.

about Trump that might nudge people it. doesn't look like it had much effect at. all like Hugo shows that what most. political advertising is a complete. waste of money it does nothing doesn't. change people's votes all's it does is. reinforce to your team say in the. primaries that you're the best candidate. so it might work for that but in terms. of getting Republicans to vote you know. say centrist or Republicans to vote. Democrat you know that the advertising. probably have no no no effect at all and. the same thing with. corporate advertising and things like.

that probably doesn't really work and so. I've been thinking about this with the. Nazis because I've written a lot about. that you know how do you the problem to. explain is how do you convert a an. entire nation of people from this you. know highly cultured educated. intelligent you know Western. civilization leading culture into Nazis. that are willing to exterminate Jews and. and other people and the answer I think. is now you don't you have to you don't. have to most of them didn't endorse the.

Nazi ideology they like some of them. economic policies in the 30s that got. Germany out of the depression you know. Hitler had that you know built the. Autobahn and you know all that stuff. trains ran on time whatnot but. the extermination is ideology that the. Nazis had most Germans did not go that. far now the anti-semitism was rampant in. Europe including Germany in Poland and. Russia especially but most of the people. that held anti-semitic views about Jews. we're not extermination estate the Jew.

should be hauled out and sent to camps. and exterminating that was very much a. Hitlerian thing so I've not gotten to. the point where I think no Hitler no. Holocaust probably even no Hitler no. World War two most German people did not. want war they were you know begging him. to stop after he annexed Austria for. example it's like that's enough at some. point these other countries are gonna go. to war with us and we don't want that. but you know Hitler so the way the state. the way this thing hovers in midair for. thirteen years in that case was was. pluralistic ignorance or the spiral of.

silence where everybody thinks everybody. else thinks something but they don't and. then the punishment of dissenters anyone. who descends a descents who speaks out. either in the press or just privately. we're going to jail them silence them. censor them you know send them off to. camps or whatever so the KL system in. Germany and the gulag system in Soviet. Stalinist Russia silence people who. would have dissented that would tell the. rest of us who think everybody else.

thinks this is the way everybody. believes but they don't we'll never know. because we don't hear those voices their. silence so so with those two things. pluralistic ignorance and the punishment. of dissenters you can have the. Nazi ideology or Stalinist ideology. hover in midair even though no one. really believes it it's just think of. like North Korea where when Kim Jong. Un's father died Kim jong-il and you. know you saw those videos of people just. weeping in the streets for days on end. you know most of these women it's like.

who actually believes that they feel. this way well you know we don't believe. it. they are obviously faking does the. regime believe that they are you know in. mourning over the loss of the Dear. Leader no because they maintained the. concentration camp system and they. locked everybody up who descends even a. little bit that tells us they don't. actually believe people feel that way. about their regime so they didn't care. people believed they just wanted. compliance right they wanted to make. sure that people I mean they had a long.

period of time where they force people. do mourn they wanted them to weep in the. streets and they jailed people for as. much as six months for not mourning. enough that's crazy. but that's just that's how you run a. dictatorship right under fear this is a. story of what where Stalin gave a speech. and then you know got a standing ovation. that went on for like three minutes and. then six minutes and eight minutes nine. minutes ten minutes 11 minutes. everybody's going oh crap please. somebody sit down finally some. apparatchik sat down and he was promptly.

arrested the next day and sent off to. the gulag really yeah Wow 11 minutes not. enough now it's not just him they want a. silence of course it's a signal of. course is what happens if you don't you. know maintain this this charade we all. know isn't that that is an issue with. social media right I mean there's. there's people that are writing hateful. things on social media but then there's. people that are writing things that just. disagreeable and when they get silenced.

this is oftentimes something that sends. a signal to other people to not say. disagreeable things not say questionable. things not say things that that is. contrary to the orthodoxy right that's. right so even though we we don't have. censorship laws like other countries. we've been discussing there is this. self-censorship that happens out of fear. of being cancelled. in the so called cancel culture or just. squelch by the you know the language.

police the correct police alright so. when I ask a show of hands on my. students every semester how many of you. self censor that is you you want to say. something but you don't on abortion or. immigration or any kind of politically. charged issue they all raise their hand. oh yeah everyone I would never you know. say something not just in class but you. know in the dorm rooms or just wherever. students are gathering. that's the chilling effect that's what I. so giving the devil is do is you know. it's pushing back against that that I. know you don't want to give your devil. the your devil's whoever the devil is. whoever you disagree with right I know.

you don't want to I don't want to either. but you know but we have to for our own. safety sake if I want to be heard and I. want you to take me seriously and listen. to what I have to say I have to respond. in kind I have to practice the principle. of the kind of reciprocity or. interchangeable perspectives I have to. see it from your perspective well he. wants to have his voice oh so do i yeah. and so as a principle it's it doesn't. feel intuitive like no I don't want to. give everybody a voice but you know what. I'm gonna override that impulse and do. it anyway if nothing else selfishly for.

my own safety sakes of my other case. chapter in the book besides Graham. Hancock is Jordan Peterson now you know. after I saw him on your show and then I. saw him getting hammered in the media. especially you know online I'm just. viciously attacked it's like God who is. this guy anyway that I met him and got. to know him a little bit it's like he's. not at all like with these pieces. wonderful guy he's the most. misrepresented person I've ever met in. my life. willfully willingly misrepresented they.

do it on purpose they know what they're. doing they want to paint him out with. just series of very quick easy to use. adjectives that turn him into a monster. yeah and and they don't have anything to. back that up anything and it's it's. really strange it's so disturbing but. it's a very strange left-wing. characteristic and again this is coming. from someone who's on the left yes but. it is a left-wing characteristic this. this need to misrepresent someone paint.

them in a strawman fashion as some sort. of an evil person so that you can. dismiss everything they say. that is uncomfortable or that is. contrary to your accepted ideology the. ideology that you subscribe to and that. you're defending and that you've. identified with and I think this is a. real problem a real problem that we're. having is that people identify with. their ideas if their ideas fall apart.

somehow or another they're falling apart. they are a part of the ideas they're not. just a person who has a thought and they. can like if you and I disagreed on. something I would hope that we could. just talk about these ideas as if they. are separate from us but oftentimes. that's not the case oftentimes people. they so identify with those ideas that. when those ideas are challenged they are. challenged they get emotional they get. angry and they will lie. they will willfully misrepresent you in. order to strengthen their position and.

this is a terrible terrible thing that I. see and I see it so much from my side I. see so much of this from the left and. it's so discouraging and it's so. infuriating and this is one of the. things that I love about the concept of. your book and I love about this idea. that we need open discourse and. discussion and I think we're dealing. with a couple of things here and one of. the things I think we're dealing with is. the limited kind of communication that's. available through social media it's very.

limited you know the writing something. in text is someone responds in text. we're missing on so much nuance we're. missing so much of what it means to. interact with someone socially if you. and I are sitting across from each other. person to person if I say something. insulting to you I have to see you get. upset I have to feel it I have to look. at you I have to feel like what kind of. an [ __ ] am i that I said that to you. like why did I hurt your feelings like. there's all these things that happen. when people are interacting with each. other socially looking at each other in.

the eye these cues these this is what. made us human this is what I mean this. is what what found community I mean this. is this is one of the basic tenets of. rational discourse is the ability to. communicate with each other in a. comprehensive way in a nuanced way and. so much of that is it. eliminated entirely when you put things. into 140 or 280 characters yeah yeah. I'll occasionally get really nasty.

letters somebody email me and I mean. really nasty like you're a piece of [ __ ]. you [ __ ] just on and on like this and. I'll sometimes I'll write them back and. go hey you know are you having a hard. day cuz you know III didn't mean to be. offensive I was just trying to make this. way and they always write back oh my god. I'm so sorry I didn't know anybody who's. gonna respond oh wow. yeah no I take it back that what you're. just saying is so common I hear that. from so many people that are in the. public eye that say something back to.

someone who says something rude to them. and the person sort of like well I. didn't mean it because it's just a. shitty way to communicate sending. someone an email or writing a blog about. someone or tweeting some nasty [ __ ]. about someone it's a terrible way to. communicate it's such a one-way you know. it's a it's a very limited way to. communicate it's a far inferior to. actual person-to-person and. communication so my chapter on Jordan.

you know I present his views and they go. here's where I agree with him here's. where I disagree with them and to his. credit I I sent him a copy of the. chapter and I said would you blurb my. book and and he did he write me that's. that nice long blurb yeah and he says. this is a rather difficult book for me. to blurb given that the entire and. entire chapters devoted to criticizing. my claims about pragmatic truth visa vie. scientific truth however and then he. says nice things about so to his credit. you know you know this guy I disagree.

with me but dang it you know at least. he's willing to talk to me he's a great. guy people just don't know him they just. don't know him I love that guy and I've. had people say you know like what kind. of a piece of [ __ ] are you for. platforming people like Jordan Peterson. I'm like my god if you went to dinner. with him just sit down at dinner with. him and me and you would realize what a. great guy he is he's a great person he. really is a very great person. he's just misrepresented and and he's.

become this lightning rod for hate from. the left and you know man I don't even. think he's really. right wing he thinks of himself as a. classical liberal which is a very weird. definition and it's more of a centrist. than anything but he's not right yeah no. no definitely not the problem you. identified though just a moment ago was. that if people identify with their. beliefs that is that the the the. specific say political platforms like an.

immigration abortion you know civil. rights whatever though those are sort of. secondary to the deeper core moral. values that people hold I define myself. as a liberal I define myself as a. conservative Republican whatever and so. when you attack one little thing here. well you know I agree with you on this. this but you know on the abortion thing. I think you're wrong and here's why you. know the the impulse is well but if I. give if I gave up on that one then I'm. gonna lose all these other ones and then. I've given up my identity right so like. when I used to debate creationist.

intelligent design theorists and so on. you know I could tell that you know if I. give people a choice like you have to. choose between Jesus and Darwin for your. life you know they're not picking Darwin. okay because you know the this sort of. belief in their you know Christian. dogmas about Jesus that is their core. being who cares about Darwin and you. know whoever this scientist was but if I. say keep Jesus keep your whole religion. I don't care what you believe but the. science is really good on this and. here's why you should follow the facts. and you don't have to give up anything.

for it and it's like oh okay I'll listen. right so and like with more recently. with climate change you know most people. most of us don't know much about climate. science it's a technical science the. models are super complex people send me. these papers I don't really understand. them you know but but if you. self-identify say as a conservative then. climate change is just a proxy for. something else like I believe in free. markets and free enterprise and I'm. pro-business and those guys over there.

you know they want to attack that now. unfortunately Al Gore's success with his. film and books and so forth then. affiliated climate science with a. left-wing liberal cause therefore. conservatives have to go against it even. though neither side knows all that much. about claim. science it's become something else that. you identify yourself is so we have to. take that out of the formula like you. keep your worldview that you define. yourself as don't give up that but just.

follow the facts on these specific. issues yeah the the polarization is the. the thing it's right there's if you are. on one side you have to subscribe to the. whole menu of ideas and if you like if. you're left-wing you can't really be. pro-life you know and if you're if your. right-wing you're supposed to have a. certain amount skepticism about climate. change right so when somebody publicly. signals where they stand on say climate. change well what they're really saying.

is look i'm i am publicly declaring my. commitment to my team yes right that's a. problem the virtue signaling that the. the these saying I have loyalty to this. position because of this is my tribe. that that's right and and so a lot of. cognitive science studies of reasoning. shows that we we generally don't reason. toward finding the truth but defending.

positions that are part of our team. ideology or sort of collective whole and. in this case we've been talking about. left and right but you know there's. there's religious side or economic. ideologies and so on that are part of. that and so even if you don't know. anything about it it's a virtue signal. that I'm in that team and you know okay. fine we're all on teams that's that's. fine defend your team but you know what. I try to do in the book is disentangle. the specific issues let's just take them. one by one like why can't I be. personally against abortion I don't want.

to do that but I and I recognize they. been Shapiro's arguments for the rights. of the fetus but I also think we have. conflicting moral values there they're. the rights of a woman and and the. history of the way women have been. treated and men have always tried to. lorded order over women's reproductive. choices historically and this has always. led to bad things like infanticide and. back-alley abortions and so on so I got. an air on one side or the other you know. I recognize and acknowledge your. arguments are really good ban or whoever.

is a pro-lifer but I still hold this. position I think there's. a lot of progress that can be made. socially to kind of reduce the tension. when you say I acknowledge your position. I understand it you know steel Manning. the argument and then the person on the. other side feels like well at least this. guy's listening to me yeah well I think. that so that is the best topic when it. comes to that because it's when you get. to particularly we get to late term. abortions boy that's a very hard thing.

to defend morally and ethically and it's. also one of the things about the. abortion topic is that it's so uniquely. human in that it's such a messy topic. it's not there's not like here's a clear. one don't murder people right don't just. go up to people and murder and. everyone's like yeah yeah that's clean. that's that's a that's a clean subject. abortion is not that clean like when is. it okay is it okay when the fetus is not. a fetus when it's just a bundle of cells.

most people are like yeah well it's not. it's not really anything then well it. will become a person though when when do. we decide well that's such a messy. subject and it's such a human subject. and I like you I am on the side of. pro-choice and I think that it is the. woman's choice to decide whether or not. she wants to keep the baby but I also. recognize that a certain point in time. that choice becomes very different the. choice becomes very different when.

there's a six month old fetus like what. is what are we saying there if you if. you are just I am pro-choice period okay. are you pro-choice up until the day of. birth like Wendy back it off when do you. back it off and it it is a subject that. people do not want to breach they don't. want to touch it and particularly. particularly people on the left when it. comes to deciding when it's okay when. it's not okay because they feel like. this is angling towards an elimination. of a woman's right to choose and it.

angles towards this this very difficult. conversation where you recognize that. there is a difference between someone. who's 7 months pregnant and someone. who's 7 days pregnant there's a very. very big difference and if we can't. acknowledge that then we are being. tribal we're being ideal. Driven we're sticking to our position. because we feel like if we concede that. this is a complex issue then we open up. the door to possibly losing a woman's. right to choose and losing these.

reproductive rights yeah I think part of. the problem also is that we tend to. dichotomize most moral issues is right. or wrong good or evil and and the. problem is that the law has to draw the. line somewhere we have to have a law and. to get along and so forth so we have to. say the drinking age is this instead of. that or driving age is this and you know. the point of what you can have abortion. is right here but most most of life is. much more on a spectrum a continuum so.

here I make the distinction in the book. between binary thinking and continuous. thinking most moral issues are on a. continuum. you know like immigration you know it's. like close the borders what don't let. anybody in ever no no no we gotta let. some in okay then we should open the. borders you mean you want to just open. the borders up and let everybody in no. no no I'm not saying everybody okay. where do you draw the line right and. it's another messy human subject yeah. yeah but but if you think of it like. well it's a continuum instead of a. binary choice and you know whatever.

answer it's not just right or wrong good. or evil that there's you know different. places to set the the the dial so. something you know and here you know the. comparative method of looking at what. different countries do as experiments. thinking of those as experiments like. that you know Japan has a very tight you. know they've slid it way down here they. let almost nobody in Australia is a. little looser but but but tighter than. us and so on you kind of look at the. consequences of letting this many people. in or that many people and see what it.

does of course all countries are. different some are more diverse some are. more homogeneous you have to account for. that and on and on so here I think you. know instead of thinking of it in these. kind of polarized black-and-white you. know it's either this or that and if. you're on this side then you're on the. bad side you know that that's not. helpful. so instead of binary thinking continuous. thinking abortion certainly you just. articulated it perfectly I mean seven. days oh come on you know it's it's just. a bundle of cells but now looks like you. know by twenty weeks or so you'll pain.

you know the some consciousness comes. online you know around 24 weeks 25 weeks. you know at some point you got to draw. the line somewhere around there now. scientists of course they don't want put. lines anywhere it's it's a day-by-day. week-by-week day by day even hour by. hour the development of the connectome. that creates thought and so on there's. no good place but we have to have a line. somewhere so the law has to do that but. that then forces us into that binary. thinking which is not helpful and it it.

creates this this is like the line in. the sand this polarization line between. these two sides and I think that so much. of what people subscribe to when they do. choose an ideology once they choose an. ideology they they have this. conglomeration of ideas that they adopt. and they adopt in order to be accepted. by the tribe and it's this is also a. very unique aspect of human. communication and civilization that we. we have to adhere to the principles and.

the ideologies of that tribe so you just. take on all these thoughts and it's one. of the real problems with only having. two choices in this country when it. comes to politics and when it comes to. just styles of life you know and there's. so many people that take great relish in. switching teams too which is interesting. right it's like I was a liberal my whole. life and then one day I woke up and. realized I was being a [ __ ] you know. now I'm a pro second ammendment. pro-trump Magga make America great Keep.

America great it's interesting because. those are sometimes the most the the. most passionate supporters of the new. side whether they're their newly liberal. or newly conservative or you know well. some of the people that are the most. interesting to talk to are people that. used to be vegans and they're now. carnivore they're just they just eat. meat and I was realized and I was being. a fool and like oh my god it's it's the. same thing it's with it's with almost. every style of living you can find a.

contrary style that people find. appealing you know there's people that. used to be atheist to become Muslims and. they wear you know the hijab and they. they fully adhere to the Quran it's. really really interesting because. I spent a lot of time watching religious. scholars online talk and watching them. preach and watch and if there's. something and as a person who's very. agnostic when I watch that it's.

appealing to me there's a certain aspect. of the confidence that they have when. they're talking about what God wants or. what you know what Allah has in store. for you when you die or what you should. do because it's written in this. particular religious text the confidence. that they have and they describe these. things is very alluring even to me it's. not like I'm going to join but I'm. sitting there in front of my computer. and I'm recognizing oh I see the appeal.

here like it's not you know it's not. that it's working on me but it's. attractive to me I see it I see how this. works on people and I find it incredibly. fascinating and I think it has to it has. to have some sort of an evolutionary. reason there's some sort of an. evolutionary benefit that adhering and. being accepting of the morals and the. ethics and the ideology of the tribe is. that that's how you stay alive that's. how you find other like-minded people to.

stick with you yeah I'm glad to do that. because that's really the only way to. figure out why people believe whatever. it is they believe yeah you know so. monitor your blood pressure when I say. this see it from Hitler's perspective. what well he had a perspective you know. their perspective was fueled by meth and. testosterone shops and you know cocaine. is dr. marell probably effective but. pretty oh my god I mean the the stories.

of Hitler and Hitler's use of. recreational drugs in order to fuel his. escapades yeah there was that book about. that a couple years ago yeah but just. but just in general I mean a good Hitler. biography like by Ian Kershaw is the. definitive biography it's two massive. volumes each were like 600 pages long. I mean it really gives you insight what. he was thinking why he did what he did. with the why the people responded the. way they did and so on and but we should. be able to do that without someone. saying how can you take Hitler's.

perspective but I just want to. understand you know why evil happens I. mean my my friend and colleague Roy. Baumeister wrote that great book on evil. in which he actually went and. interviewed serial killers and rapists. in prison and said you know why'd you do. it and you know he discovered that they. all had this perspective like well this. is why I did it I had a crappy childhood. or you know I I felt that you know that. it was totally justified that guy dissed. me or she cheated on me or they all had. justifications and it was kind of.

interesting to see the rationalizations. behind their arguments now from the. victims perspective that the perpetrator. is just pure evil he did it because he. enjoys suffering the suffering of other. people now there are some you know. Psychopaths or Satanists that do that. but they're very small in number very. tiny percentage of the population most. people in prison that are killers are. what they did it for moralistic reasons. you know he took my parking spot so I. you know we got in a fight and then I. killed him or you know this guy slept. with my girlfriend and so I had to do.

something and defend my honor and it one. thing led to another and Here I am in. prison they almost all have good. moralistic reasoning so the problem is. not that we don't have enough morality. actually we have too much morality too. much moralizing about other people that. are harming us so you know back to the. free speech issue the moment you say. we're gonna create a category called. hate speech okay what goes in that bin. right well you know it's so it's so I. documented that in the opening page that.

this really begins the United States. with in 1919 with the Schenck versus the. United States decision by the United. States Supreme Court to uphold this. conviction of this guy named shank who. was head of the Socialist Party in. Philadelphia in 1918 he was distributing. flyers to draft aged men telling them. that the conscription is equivalent of. slavery because the 14th amendment. protects your right to bodily autonomy. and when the government says we're. drafting you into the military and we're.

sending you to Europe this case for the. European Great War you know we now own. your body for the next four years okay. so this is what and so here's the famous. lines. Oliver Wendell Holmes Supreme Court. justice Oliver Wendell Holmes shank vs. the United States that we're all. familiar with the most stringent. protection of free speech would not. protect a man in falsely shouting fire. in a theatre in causing a panic the. question in every case is whether the. words used are used in such.

circumstances and are of such a nature. as to create a clear and present danger. that they will bring about the. substantive evils that Congress has a. white right to prevent it is a question. of proximity and degree so clear and. present danger okay so we you you might. say okay so somebody incites a group to. riot and cause violence or something. like that so that's going to be called. hate speech but but but note what what. he considered at the time a clear and. present danger protestors of the draft.

and their argument their argument is. pretty reasonable you know I mean you. can disagree with it and say no I think. in times of national crisis we have to. abolish set aside the 14th Amendment and. conscript young men into the army and. send them off toward to potentially die. that's our right to do it to protect our. nation but we should be able to debate. that but the moment that happened in. 1919 then category creep or category. expansion happened where more and more. things got put into the bin of clear and. present danger so you're now doing.

something that I consider to be a clear. and present danger a threat to our. nation or state or community or whatever. so that category just got bigger and. bigger and then so back to why liberals. used to defend free speech and now it's. more conservatives doing it and liberals. in favor of censorship begins with this. idea of something like in the 60s where. we began to become sensitive to the. words we use to describe whether they're. people so the n-word you know describe. African Americans obviously the one we'd. all agree with yeah that's bad we. shouldn't do that okay what about the.

c-word to describe women or called Jews. [ __ ] or Vietnamese call them gooks or. whatever yeah yeah those are all hate. speech so the bin starts getting larger. and larger then all of a sudden you end. up with these lists of microaggressions. a reprint one in the book from UCLA the. University of California system and 2014. issued this long list of things you. can't say like where are you from or wow. you're good at math to someone who's not. Asian or wow you speak English. well you know and these are now. considered hate speech that they could.

trigger people's feelings of being hurt. and that is a form of clear and present. danger to the sort of serenity of our. community and all of a sudden this. category is now huge is where are you. from really on that list. it yeah it is yeah yeah my wife gets. this all the time because she's from. Germany and she speaks perfect English. he has no accent and people go wow I. can't believe you speak English so well. or well I can't believe you're not from. America or something like that and she. instead of being offended she just says.

thank you I paid attention in school but. it's just bizarre that where are you. from would be considered a. microaggression it's just we can't make. things so sensitive and this is one of. the things that I hope comes out of this. horrible tragedy that we're experiencing. is that people realize what actually is. important and we spend much less time. concentrating on stuff that's not really. important because there's no real. problems you know the one of the. problems with society being so good and. and this is arguably the best time ever.

in human history and Pinker points to. that with statistics and gets criticized. like harshly criticized by people on the. left that say no it's not it's the best. time for white men and then they'll. start going crazy about all the things. that are wrong in the world and he's. saying like yeah no one's denying the. things that are wrong in the world. there's always been things wrong in the. world there are less things wrong in the. world today than ever before and one of.

the reasons why people can get upset. about these things that many people. consider to be not that significant like. asking someone where are you from is. because there's no war there's no real. thing on our beaches there's no real. horrible tragedy that's taking place. every day in our communities you know I. had a friend my friend Shuki was from. Israel and I went over his house and. they would be playing bongos and. laughing and dancing and and and singing.

and I'm like I go why I go wire Israelis. that come to America like why my guys so. fun like. like it's so they like they like. laughing and singing and he goes you. know in his crazy accent he was like hey. where I'm from he goes you could die any. day he goes so when you're alive it's. party party party and that was his take. on things he just wanted a party you. know he was a really fun loving guy.

because he'd experienced some tragedy. and because he'd experienced this. horrific condition in the Middle East. whereas here in America when things get. better we find more [ __ ] that's not that. important to complain about the thinking. in a way it's a sign of moral progress. in as much as it used to be people would. protest really horrific inequalities yes. prejudices and bigotry against African. Americans and so on well we've improved. so much on that and I and I wish the.

left would take more credit for that. because the Liberals were drivers of the. civil rights movement so when they now. say you know things are as bad as. they've ever been or worse than they've. ever been for for african-americans and. so on they're in a way they're saying. you know our our immediate ancestors who. supported these civil liberties they had. no effect at all Martin Luther King he. didn't do anything because look things. are just as bad as they were in King's. time that that's kind of conceding that. there's been no progress and therefore.

there's no point in trying well it's. also this is statistically foolish. because it's inaccurate you know I mean. but we should be any force the positive. right of course. yes right right so but when you see like. a campus eruption at Yale over you know. the Halloween costumes business yeah. Nicholas Christakis you know I mean that. you know we all looked at that went oh. my god this is ridiculous but in a way. it's a sign of progress like the. students in the sixties used to you know. protest the Vietnam War or you know the.

way blacks were treated in the south. those are you know those are really. legitimate things to complain about in. protest about but there there aren't as. many of those around anymore for. students to get all riled up about and. they still have those moral impulses. like I want to promote what's right and. I want to be against evil and I'm all. fired up here with my my moral module. dialed up to 11 and I'm going to go out. on the streets what am I. protests those Halloween costumes you. know people that cultural appropriation. yeah and so on remember there was a tell.

the story in a book about this Taco. Tuesday at Cal State Fullerton I was. invited to give a speech there years ago. about protecting free speech over this. issue that caused the campus to just. erupt and in protest about Taco Tuesday. it's like Taco Tuesday. yeah that's cultural appropriation you. know the Mexican community is being. appropriated by these whites eating. tacos like we're in Southern California. where is there no tacos I mean this is. you know the guy who tried to patent.

Taco Tuesday LeBron James LeBron Jay did. a Jamie isn't that what happened yeah he. talks about Taco Tuesday on his. Instagram I was on his Instagram and. he's like you know what today is and. then he shows his talk Taco Tuesday you. know okay what is he allowed to do it I. mean the whole thing is preposterous. it's delicious food you know it's not. like we're saying that you know white. people created it or anything like that.

I mean and cultural appropriation is so. ridiculous in so many ways but one of. the most ridiculous ways it is is that. it prevents people from enjoying some. amazing aspects of the diverse cultures. that we all coexist with especially here. in America I mean this is such a. legitimate melting pot I think it's. amazing that you can go to all these. different places and that you know. there's a guy I'm trying to remember his. name Rick Bayless I believe his name is. and he's a famous Mexican chef but he's.

not Mexican but he cooks Mexican food. and he loves Mexican cuisine he takes. all these trips to Mexico to learn with. the Mexican masters and he has a famous. restaurant in Chicago where he has a. full authentic Mexican menu and people. were furious at him because here he is. this white guy selling Mexican food like. what do you expect him to do like do you. have to be born a certain patch of dirt. to enjoy a style of food and don't you.

think that he is actually boosting the. signal and letting people know that. there's. amazing things that come out of Mexico. this is an homage to Mexican cuisine. he's not trying to claim it but you know. hey this was invented in Chicago you. know this is not really Mexican oh he's. he's saying this is from Mexico he talks. openly about the various parts of the. country of Mexico where this style of. cooking came from and and you know and. how it emanates and from the the. traditional ingredients and he cooks.

them in traditional ways and fantastic. like really widely praised restaurant. with amazing food and this guy gets [ __ ]. on for it it's it's crazy this is not. only these perverse reversals because it. used to be like in the 19th century. there was this idea of kind of a pure. European culture and other cultures were. somehow not as good and they defined. culture in a very specific way and and. then you know kind of liberals then. we're pushing back against that say no.

no the you know the cultures are equal. and culture is a whole blend of of. different you know migrations and people. mixing and that's what culture that's. what makes cultural rich it's yes it's. fluid and changing and so on and now all. of a sudden liberals are saying no no. there's a pure correct culture that only. the people born there can use you know. it adopt those cultural features that's. the complete opposite of what liberals. used to argue yes starting with. anthropologists say no no no this crazy. idea that whites and whites a from mrs.

heaven I view our European cultures. bunch of nonsense. Europeans are just as amalgamated with. lots of different cultures as anybody. else there is no real European culture. yeah it's it's a weird time and I again. I connect this to the fact that we. didn't have as many real problems as we. used to and when you talk about Yale. with Nic Christakis I think there's this. thing that kids do when they're coming. of age they're separated from their. parents and they want to establish that. so many of these older people were wrong.

about the way life is and they're wrong. and we're gonna show them what's right. and we have a new way of living we have. a new way of thinking and we want this. campus to be safe we want safe spaces. and and a lot of it is about taking. control of their environment and. enforcing their ideology and. creating something that's in a lot of. ways is very ego driven because they're. trying to show that they're making a. change in the environment around them. and they have good intentions while.

they're doing it it's just their brains. haven't fully formed yet and they don't. have a lot of life experience and this. pattern this pattern shows itself over. and over and over again it's a. constantly repeating pattern where these. kids go away to college and become self. righteous and then try to impose their. viewpoints on the older people it's very. very common and it has this these. psychological building blocks to it that. you can kind of see why they're doing. this yeah me if you want a safe space go.

to a college campus these are about the. safest environment you could be in in. all of America which itself is safer. than it's ever been at Chapman. University we have a we have a safe. space group and so I went to one of. their meetings once just to see what it. was all about this is mostly LGBTQ. people that you know we're kind of. concerned about being insulted in or. assaulted and so anyway so I said well. how many incidences have there been on. this very white very pleasant campus.

here in Orange County well we don't have. any numbers because we're not allowed to. ask and keep track of how many. incidences there are now the police can. do this but this this safe space group. or the administration can't do that so. well then how do you know it's worse. than it was say five years ago or it's. the same or it's better well we don't. know nice I could give me some examples. what are we talking about here what's. what's the issues and like one of them. was for example a gay couple work I. think it was two guys walking along a. sidewalk and now chapman's is in the.

middle of the city of orange so it's. ringed with houses and just the regular. city so some kind of pickup truck drove. by and said something like [ __ ]. [ __ ] and I said okay yeah that guy's. a dick he's an [ __ ]. so what are you gonna do now I mean is I. are you gonna give the power to that guy. in the pickup truck in which now you see. yourself as a victim now technically. yeah you're a victim of a sort of a hate. crime or whatever you know he said. something nasty but then what you know.

why not just say [ __ ]. [ __ ] or don't say anything just. ignore it and just move on with your. life because there will always be. [ __ ] yeah there are fewer [ __ ]. than there used to be as I like to say. conservatives are more liberal now than. liberals were in the 1950s you know. we've all had our consciousness raise. the morale sphere is expanded and so on. that's a very good point we just said. that conservatives are more liberal. today than liberals were in the 1950s. socially just think about that I mean it. used to be where even most liberals were.

against gay marriage say for example. until 2011 really the switch began and. then 2015 it changed completely with. Supreme Court decision but if you look. at interracial marriage that was illegal. until 1967 and pretty much most. Americans including liberals were. against it now conservatives are all in. no one objects to interracial marriage. by conservatives they've all shifted in. that liberal direction and I think the. gay marriage thing I think that's pretty. much fallen off the radar of anybody's. discussions after the cake baker.

incident in Colorado. I think you know I think nobody's really. talking about that anymore. you know gay marriage you know it's like. the Seinfeld episode yeah you know. whatever dude who cares I mean not that. there's anything wrong with that you. know and it's become kind of just a. Seinfeld level joke now and I think. pollsters won't even ask that question. anymore you know are you in favor or. against gay marriage in a couple more. years it'll just fall off our social. radar not totally though remember when. Pete Budaj edge was running for.

president before he had dropped out. there was this one woman that found out. that he was married to a man and she. tried to take back or vote oh no I. didn't hear but oh it's a crazy video. it's a crazy video to watch this this. you know I pity her that first of all I. pity her that she cares that she's. developed and then she's developed this. ideology or she's been subjected to this. ideology that she thinks for something. wrong with two gay people that that are.

married but she was like no way I'm not. there's no way and she was trying to. take her her vote back she didn't know. she's like I didn't know he was gay and. she was upset by it. yeah I mean they're out there there's a. few. I would say this would be in the my. category of there's always going to be a. few [ __ ] driving around in their. pickup truck same [ __ ] [ __ ] and you. know what do you do about it again just. you know you can't give those kind of. people that power over you well this I.

feel pity for them it's it's sad it's. sad that someone would care it really is. sad that you would care about someone. sexual preference or any of those things. right and as a comedian it's it's a real. pain in the ass because you can't even. make fun of gay people you can't make. fun of anything that gay people do. that's legitimately funny because it'd. be considered hateful but all for all. people are funny like people are funny. and you should be able to make fun of. all of us we're all we're so silly we're. the weirdest thing on this planet is as.

far as I could see in terms of like how. complex we are a health suit and some. gay people are funny they do they do. funny things but if you make fun of them. it's a it's in our world today it's. considered homophobic you know I just. think that's it's so crazy coming from a. person who's not even remotely. homophobic I've been called homophobic. because I've made fun of certain things. that gay people do that I think are. silly again a perverse reversal the way.

used to be you know liberals were always. in favor of comedians poking at the. power structure and the prejudices of. Verta well Danny Bruce the thing is it's. it's punching down now the idea is that. you're punching down on people that are. maligned and you know people that are. they find themselves in a position in. society where many people on the Left. consider them a protected class but my. position is we're all okay everyone's. fine but we all have our own. idiosyncrasies and our own behavior.

patterns and are all things that are. pretty [ __ ] funny there's a lot of a. lot of humor to it but we with love you. know that all of this is with love that. even making fun of Boys Town and how. raucous it is on a Saturday night it. doesn't mean you hate gay people it's an. observation I mean it's a [ __ ]. fantastic place to be if you're a young. gay guy looking to get laid but it's a. hilarious place to be if you're a. straight person driving through it. doesn't mean you hate anyone right and.

right the problem is that those people. like the guy in the pickup truck yelling. the slurs to make people feel bad those. people still exist that's the problem. yeah but my point is not as many not as. many much better much better yeah and. the denial of that it seems silly yeah. exactly because it denies that we made. moral progress sample like dr. King and. the other civil rights leaders didn't. have any effect and that that's not. first of all it's wrong they didn't have. an effect we've made a lot of progress. but also manure about is that it's going.

to tell younger people today don't. bother trying because nothing ever. changes right yeah there's definitely. some of that you know it would be great. if all of the hate went away it would be. great if there was no prejudice no. racism no sexism no homophobia none of. those things but one of the things about. when you see someone acting foolish in a. way that is discriminatory one of the. things about it is you recognize that.

this is a pattern of behavior that human. beings can fall into and it's some of. the worst aspects of tribal behavior and. recognizing the folly of others is very. beneficial to your own personal growth. you could realize how how grow if you're. there when you see someone yell out a. full slur to a gay couple you can it's. terrible that it happens but you can. experience how stupid that person has to.

be and how sad it is that those people. exist and recognize that okay this is. what it's like to be these people this. is what it's like and the this this it's. like when you see people making mistakes. and doing terrible things and doing dumb. things the good thing about it is you. can learn from other people's foolish. thoughts. yeah well research shows that when you. know somebody say who's gay you're less. likely to be homophobic just the.

exposure to them and so the effect part. of the effective cause of moral progress. is bottom-up now sometimes you have to. pass laws to get people to change like. to abolish slavery in the United States. we needed a war. and 750,000 people died about that and. you know sometimes you have to send into. federal troops like I think it was. Eisenhower did that to desegregate. Alabama schools that were segregated and. you remember the governor said you know. segregation now segregation tomorrow. segregation forever and I forget who was.

president the time he said no you're. segregating and we're sending that we're. you're integrating your schools and. we're sending in federal troops men with. guns to make sure you do it okay. sometimes you have to do that but most. of the change happens from the bottom up. of just oppressed peoples saying you. know what stop that don't do that I. don't like it when you say that you know. and it began with the n-word and just. kept expanding so there's a logic to. where we ended up today where you have. this big bin of you know.

microaggressions and so on but there was. a logic to it like just saying it's. hurtful to do that and most of the. effects have been good they have been. positive just you know when Ellen comes. out on our TV show that's just a little. thing there or or when South Park you. know makes fun of all different. religions you know that it's perspective. on things humor is good television. scripts movie scripts the way characters. talked Richard Dawkins makes this point. about you could pinpoint to the decade. when a novel was written based on the.

words that are used to describe Jews. blacks and women and you know but but no. one said okay we're gonna pass laws to. say you can't use these words to. describe Jews blacks and women we all. just change the way we talk about other. people in a way that's more liberal. that's more all-encompassing that's more. egalitarian in that sense and and it's. not clear how exactly that happened just. incrementally a little bit by bit you. know it's just it's like trying to. figure out when a word starting to be. used it's like it's really hard to 9/11.

or gays and I remember in the late 90s. there was a couple of atheists that. wanted to quit using the word atheist. atheists and call us the brights we are. the brights and that didn't stick yeah. it was pretty obvious what the you know. what the antonym did the brights were. the people that believed in god they're. the dims right okay so the shims are not. gonna be fond of that. so that never took off you know by by. trying to change language by Fiat from.

the top down okay here's the new rule. we're all going to use this word that. doesn't work it's just expanding our. consciousness expanding the moral sphere. it just including more people in your. honorary circle of friends and family. members or honorary family members or. people that you will treat with respect. that that has been happening just tiny. bits every day a little bit here and. there and over the decades you see it. when you look back at the numbers like. Steve Pinker does but but it's hard to.

pinpoint the day that that happened. do you know Daryl Davis's yes the LA. sheriff right no no no no he is this man. right here he's a blues musician and he. is he's converted over 200 KKK members. and Nazis and that guy yes I talked to. him on the podcast he's an amazing guy. and it all came up from him doing a show.

and talking to a guy who said I I've. never had a drink with a black man. before and he's like how is that. possible and the guy said I'm in the KKK. he thought the guy was joking and then. the guy pulls out his card and he's like. why and so he tells this guy hey here's. my phone number when I'm in town again. I'll be in town again let's sit down and. have a conversation so the guy comes to. see him again when he's in town he. strikes up a friendship with this guy.

and four months later this guy hands him. his rope and he says I'm leaving I'm. leaving and this guy was like a Grand. Wizard of the KKK. he said I'm stepping down and he's had. that effect on 200 people and done it on. a person-to-person based because he's. such first of all he's an incredibly. articulate guy he's very intelligent and. probably more articulate and intelligent. to the people that he's talking to who. considered themselves superior so they. talked to him over a long period of time. and they realized like this guy's so.

well read and he's so [ __ ] smart like. I'm dumber than him and I'm a white guy. what is wrong eventually wind up giving. upon their racism and they're friends. with him now and they it was more. important to them to be friends with him. and continue their friendship with him. than it was for them to stay in the KKK. and he's had you know these guys who. were like henchmen for the KKK quit give. it up and become his friend and he he.

brought in all these robes that these. guys have given him including like Nazi. flags that they gave them then the. band's a rant where around there their. sleeves and Nazi uniforms and and it's. amazing but it's that one-on-one thing. that you were talking about you're less. likely to be homophobic if you know a. gay person and you like them you're like. well that's crazy they're just people. you're less likely to be racist if. you're around black people and you meet. them and you you get to know them you're.

like well we'll just for just people but. just people who look different that's it. right that's it it's right isn't that. that movie KK Klan or the Spike Lee. movie isn't it about this guy Davis oh I. don't know I don't just trying to. remember I don't think maybe it was. somebody else yeah yeah I don't think. there's a movie made about him I mean it. should be he's just doing it like old. school would door to door I mean he's. really doing it you know what is uh was.

that you know that what does that term. when someone does it from the bottom up. I mean that's that's really what he's. doing he's like grassroots. yeah grassroots thank you that's really. what he's doing like grassroots. converting people that were racist to. realize the error of their ways there is. some evidence still preliminary that. reading novels makes you better at mind. reading that is reading the minds of. other people what's called theory of. mind that is you can put yourself in. somebody else's shoes and see the world. through their eyes and the idea is that.

it by reading novels you transport your. point of view into the character that. you're identifying with in the novel and. then you see the world through their. eyes and so the way this is tested is. they measure the kinds of things that. people read or they actually have them. read passages like from a Jane Austen. novel and and then they take this. this I tell this test where you look at. just a block of ice like I would show. you a picture of just this we can kind. of see the way my my the corner my eyes.

is squinting or not or whatever what the. emotions are and they have like six. different emotions and then you have to. guess what the emotion is of this. picture you're looking at hundreds of. them you go through and anyway the. correlation was that people that read a. lot of novels or that you know that kind. of fiction that that has that. interchangeable perspective are better. at mind-reading they're better at. reading emotions in the eyes anyway a. lot of this hasn't been replicated yet.

but it's kind of new but still the idea. is that the rise of the novel in since. the Enlightenment in which just common. people become more literate in literacy. rates were going up over the centuries. it used to be like 10% of the population. was literate now it's you know 99%. whatever so there's a curve going up. there so as people start reading more. and then they start reading novels they. start taking the perspective of others. so you know here Harriet Beecher Stowe's. Uncle Tom's Cabin was the first time.

most White's had ever read anything. about what it was like to be a slave and. they were horrified like oh my god had. no idea that this is what it's like and. Abraham Lincoln famously said when he. met her so you're the little woman that. started this great war you know you know. in a way that that's right because you. know a lot of people's I've never met a. black I have no idea what a slave even. is if you're in the north now I see why. this is so abhorrent hmm right and you. know back to to this idea of hate speech. the problem again once you go down that.

road this is the argument I make in the. book is that in the 1850s there were. southern congressmen who fought against. northern abolitionists coming down to. give speeches in the south or publish. articles in newspapers in the south or. get books published and distributed in. the South that were pro abolitionists. their argument was this could lead to. slave revolts and riots and violence. therefore we have to silence that now. they didn't use the word hate speech but.

they would that's what today it would be. called abolitionist speech to abolish. slavery is hate speech. that's insane right and in the same. thing in the civil rights movement they. in 1960s there were people in the South. that said you know when Malcolm X comes. down here or Martin Luther King comes. down here and they give a speech this is. not good this is it to use that the. Supreme Court justices words a clear and. present danger to the peaceful nature of. our society we have to silence them. that's a similar conversation I had with.

a friend who's very progressive when. this there was a thing that was going on. for a while or people were saying. punched Nazis and what I think they were. really saying is they were sort of they. were proclaiming their connection to. this progressive ideology proclaiming it. so much so that hey man I'm willing to. [ __ ] draw blood I'm willing to punch. Nazis and so I was saying that this is a. dangerous thing and they said well why.

do you think it's dangerous I said well. first of all what if they punch you back. then then you've got a real [ __ ]. problem you know like you are you you're. you're espousing violence like that's. always a bad idea and second of all I've. heard a lot of people called Nazis that. I don't think are really Nazis like Ben. Shapiro he's Jewish. I've seen people call him Nazis I've. seen it written I'm like who's wearing. it he's wearing a yarmulke yes and. people people still call him a Nazi so.

the point is like who is to decide who. is a Nazi if you're saying like there's. a guy and he's he's running the gas. chamber at a concentration camp and he's. relishing the fact that he's gonna put. these Jews to death. that's a Nazi but yeah punch that guy. okay yeah but that's not what you're. talking about you're using this word in. this very sort of flippant way and it. becomes very dangerous to just say punch. Nazis because you're just deciding. people or Nazis who are definitely not.

Nazis and a lot of them are actually. Jewish which is it hatton Lee insane I. think that beam started after somebody. punch Richard Spencer on the sidewalk he. was out given one of his little yeah. white supremacist speech to somebody. punched him now I have to admit you know. people like Richard Spencer. these are just [ __ ] and yeah you. know there's videos of them taunting. african-americans that are out singing. you know we shall overcome and these.

guys are they're laughing at them and. kind of up in their faces you know and. emotionally I feel like I would just. like to punch that [ __ ] because. that is wrong but this is why we can't. go down that road because the whole. point of a civilized society is we can't. just have people punching each other. what we need to do is put that guy on a. vacation with Darrell Davis make him so. he can't go anywhere he's gonna hang out. with Darrell for many days at a time and. by the end of it hopefully he would get. it you know then hopefully he's not so.

as we were talking about earlier it's. not so connected with those ideas that. those ideas are him you know we've got. to be as a society more flexible in the. way we hang on to ideas and I think that. that's something that needs to be taught. to people because there's a sort of a. built-in reaction that we have to defend. our ideas and when you're young and. you're learning how to debate things and.

you were learning how to argue things. the sting of losing is very personal and. so you've sort of built in these do. build in these defense mechanisms into. their personality into their vernacular. into the way they communicate where you. you do think of your ideas as a part of. you but if you really care about you you. should care about objective truth and. you should care about recognizing when. an idea that you're holding on to sucks. you know if you are valuable if you care.

about yourself you should recognize when. an idea that you're you're clinging to. is not a good one yeah yeah there was. that documentary film about white. supremacists by that Muslim woman I. forget the name of the film and her name. I'm sorry but she's basically hanging. out with I think it was Richard Spencer. Jared Taylor and a few of the others. particularly after Charlottesville and. and they're talking to her that you.

could tell they really liked her first. of all she's an attractive woman so you. see these guys are like. oh boy now this attractive woman's. paying attention to me and and so she's. very disarming in this way and she says. well just tell me what you believe so. they articulate all their beliefs about. you know white brown people are inferior. to white people and so on and she's like. you know I'm I'm brown they're like oh. this doesn't apply to you oh I see okay. why not well because you know I know you. like right yeah I think there was a line.

in there where you said well I know you. so these things don't apply to you it's. like right okay therein lies the problem. just we just don't know these other. people okay so we stereotype them and. you know that's part of our cognition. stereotyping it's a perfectly normal. thing we stereotype all kinds of things. we put them into bins cognitive bins so. we can keep track of them and and. distinguish them from others. unfortunately we do that with people. yeah and it's a normal thing that people. have done since the beginning of time to. sort of recognize who's in your tribe.

and who's not back when we were these. little groups of 50 people and we'd get. invaded by another group of 50 people. and you had to be loyal to your group. yeah my friend Jared Diamond tells the. story of you know he goes to Papa New. Guinea every year to to go birding and. then now been doing anthropology work as. well but back in the day he said they. would go out birding and he'd have one. of his pup into Guinean hunter-gatherers. with him on some hiking trail somewhere. and there got their binoculars and so on. and they encounter some stranger from.

another tribe and Jared's like hey let's. go talk to that guy and his buddy is. like are you out of your mind we could. be killed we don't know who that guy is. and probably you might be eaten as well. not just killed so you know but the. point of Jared's story is that that's. the environment in which we evolved it. yeah there's a there's a kind of a logic. to xenophobia like other people are. dangerous you know like that my favorite. line from a few good men were Jack. Nicholson is schooling the Tom Cruise.

character you know about you know you. can't handle the truth what's the truth. the truth is we live in a world with. walls and on those walls are men with. guns and you want me on that wall you. need me on that wall and when you're at. parties enjoying your freedom I'm on the. wall right and I remember seeing that. thing in yeah that's actually true. that's a very good description of the. we evolved it's a very walled off tribal. environment that we evolved these moral. emotions so there's a logic to. xenophobia that we've been pushing back. against by saying okay let's increase. our sphere of who we count as a member.

of our tribe we've been getting better. at that but we're pushing back against. those natural impulses like it's a. little risky to do that we have to be. careful about the so autocrats tend to. jump on that go well you know immigrants. are dangerous people or brown people are. dangerous whether you know white. supremacists do that and you know that. so that's a that's a long history we're. pushing back against well these. ideologies that people subscribe to I. saw a lot of them evaporate when this. lockdown took place because a lot of my.

friends that are anti-gun we're asking. me how to get a gun like what do you do. how do you get a gun I'm like you want a. gun my wife says I should get a gun a. friend of mine who says his wife is. always like you're never getting a gun. do you were not having a gun in this. house the moment the [ __ ] hit the fan. she goes we got to get a gun that was a. hit he was laughing he's like she told. me to get a gun you believe this and he. grew up in the south so he's used to. being around guns but this is this is. when people realize like well there's a. reason why people are Preppers some of.

them are insane yeah but it's also hey. if the [ __ ] grid goes down there's no. power you should have a certain amount. of food since I seen you here a little. while it's a good idea it's a good idea. to have a method of filtrating water. it's a good idea and then I've also. gotten a ton of questions from people on. how do you get into hunting how do you. get into hunting like and it's like it's. a complex question it's a long road it's. not an easy thing to learn how to hunt.

but from people that never had any. interested in it before but now they. realize like hey I went to the grocery. store today and there's no [ __ ] meat. like I want meat like what what do I do. for food like oh there's animals roaming. around that's what okay how do you get. these animals like what are you doing. and it's you know you realize why people. hold on to certain beliefs that some. people find distasteful yeah there's a. certain logic to hoarding even if no one. wants to do it again it's like this. pluralistic ignorance problem everybody.

thinks that everybody else wants to do. yes but of course they want to do that. the solution is you just put limits it's. like hunting hunting licenses and you. have a limit to how many you can shoot. and so on you know yeah and and lots of. industries have adopted that to solve. the tragedy of the Commons problem my. local Vaughn solved it by saying you can. only buy one packet of toilet paper per. shopper per day that's it and and I. think everybody was kind of glad about. that like okay good now there's toilet. paper on the shelves I don't have to.

worry about hoarding I have to worry. about that [ __ ] taking two and I get. none yeah and you know and and really. it's even if you buy say well we're just. selfish creatures yeah we are that's. right but we're all but we also want to. do the right thing but we need some kind. of norms and laws and customs or. whatever in place to kind of attenuate. the inner demons and accentuate the. better angels and that everybody can see. that and then they feel better about. like okay I'm just gonna buy one and I. can a hoard or whatever now you.

mentioned the south there's interesting. research Richard Nisbett and his. colleagues on the culture of Honor. that's more common in the south than in. the north and that in a culture of honor. you solve your own problems you don't. turn to authorities or the state okay. and kind of in general on average also. in the south particularly in. african-american communities law. enforcement and the judicial system has. not been very fair so you can't really. trust them so you do kind of have to.

take the law into your own hands. therefore there's more guns more gun. violence in the south there's kind of a. logic to it and that so it is but did. these famous experiments that are kind. of amusing now where you'd have subjects. come in and fill out a form for some. fake experiment they were doing and then. you have to walk down the hall and give. the form to the person in that room too. at the end of the hall we're in the. hallway there's like a bank of lockers. or filing cabinets or something and. there's somebody working there and. pulling out the door or whatever and as. the person walks by this person working.

there who's just a shield for the. experiment kind of leans back and bumps. into this person and says [ __ ] so the. question is what does this person do now. so anyway they do all follow-up surveys. and they drew blood and all this stuff. people from the notes too. from the north were like you know. whatever I don't you know I don't care. they would apologize to the guy that. said [ __ ] people from the south. they're like that [ __ ] called me. an [ __ ] you know and they were mad. and then when they drew the blood their. stress hormones were higher testosterone. was higher and so anyway his theory is.

that the sat that democracy came late to. the southern United States the rule of. law and the idea that the state has a. monopoly on the legitimate use of force. which is how government is defined and. and therefore southerners had to kind of. take the law into their own hands that. is to say you know we're gonna develop a. culture of honor and we're gonna take. care of matters ourselves because. everybody wants justice everybody wants. right to be done and wrong to be.

punished that's normal and if the. state's not doing it if the state says. we're gonna do that so you don't have to. do it so we're gonna disarm the. citizenry and we're going to take care. of that through a a court system and a. police system and so on but if they're. not doing it or they're doing it. unjustly and some communities like I've. read them in American communities are. treated differently then of course. they're gonna push back so that's why. there's more gun sales and more. homicides in the south and in the north. and anyway I just thought of that when. you mention that it's a very interesting.

subject so your book comes out when is. out now tomorrow's it officially but. you're gonna actually order I just. checked on Amazon this mornings like oh. it's already for sale okay so that. tomorrow will actually be today because. this is gonna be released tomorrow so. and it's called give the devil his due. gimme the devil his day being the devil. his due gets to the little little chess. piece there is our art director - the. little devil there yeah excellent all. right well I always enjoyed talking to. Michael I really appreciate you and. hopefully next time I see you we can.

actually have dinner together again we. will give studio next time that's right. all right we'll be back to that all. right man. take care of you all right bye everybody. [Music].