Joe Rogan Experience #1282 - Adam Conover

is it good all right cut all this out. hello Adam hey thanks for having me. thanks for being here man. I'm a giant fan of your show I really. appreciate that the fact that it annoys. people - that's the goal pretty much you. know I mean I another guy a person where. I'm like if you're pissing people off. you're doing something right but there's. some truth to that and also the way you. structured the name you know if you came.

up with the name of but everyone's. everything I think I might have to give. that to my to my former boss samurais. Chicago humor might have might have I. think we came up with the name together. he might have been the first person to. say it but yeah thank you I'm really. yeah I like let's you know it lets you. know that hey this is gonna know you a. little bit they're like I'm gonna be. telling you [ __ ] that you don't want to. hear that's gonna make everything a. little bit worse you know but at the end. of the day it makes it better it's an. optimistic show at the end of the day. we're yeah yeah you give them the truth. I think that yeah I mean the the the.

thesis of the show is that it's always. better to know the truth it's a. momentarily uncomfortable but hopefully. for most people 99% of people who watch. the show it grinds your gears a little. bit to find out something oh I thought. that was true with that crap you know. but then at the end we show you why. you're actually better off knowing that. thing and you're always better off. knowing the truth in my view in my view. as well yeah is was there ever and it. was a one episode that stands out as. being one that people got the most upset. about there's a bunch of them I mean. people get people get upset with us.

for a lot of different reasons we did. one about how breastfeeding isn't better. than formula-feeding it's you know. they're both like formula-feeding is. fine you know and if the promise. formula-feeding has become a stigma to. stigmatized now and there's a lot of. people who can't breastfeed or who for. medical reasons you know and the fact is. that for me formula is like a. scientifically proven wonderful way to. feed a baby and if you know someone's.

choice or need is to do that there's no. reason to stigmatize them we go through. all the reasons that that that's the. case and yeah people get a little you. know there's a lot of people who sort of. have an ideology about that you know and. don't want to hear the truth about it we. did one about trophy hunting animals. about how because people young people. get so mad I look at this guy shot a. lion right and the truth is that in some. countries not 100% of the time. but in some countries they are. effectively using trophy hunting as a. way to to protect the animals because.

you know there that's how they are able. to sort of like monetize you know in. that place. and you know get money coming in in. order to protect the animals and they're. they're very specific and strategic. about it and it can be part of a good. you know sort of animal management you. know strategy and it's being used to. some success you know and yet people. don't want to hear that right it's still. really hard that's a weird one to me and. I hunt yeah yeah that that hold the. whole lion right well what they can do.

is they can say okay well we've got. these elephants one of these elephants. is an old male that's like killing the. other elephants right and if we organize. these hunts where you got to pay half a. million dollars for the right to even go. in there does that happen with old male. elephants I know it that was the issue. with that giraffe. no that was the case yeah there was a. there was a woman who got in trouble. because she shot this really beautiful. giraffe it was really dark and unusually.

coloured and was dark because was very. old and older the giraffe apparently the. males get really dark hmm was really. cool looking but she shot it and. everybody went crazy on the internet. because you know she was posing and. smiling with this yeah but apparently. that giraffe had to be killed because it. had killed at least two maybe three. young males and it was no longer of a. viable breeding age so they they were in. this situation where they didn't have. the money to take it and bring it to a. zoo somewhere yeah and the they would.

have gotten money from having this woman. come in and shoot it yes what they did. yeah that's sort of that's sort of the. idea you know I mean one of the issues. is if you've got an area where you know. one of the problems is you need to have. a reason for the people who live in the. place to care about the animals you know. what I mean if it's just like hey the. ovens are gonna roam free well you've. got people there who are like alright. fine so I'm living near some elephants. occasionally that you. my crops and [ __ ] and that annoys me I. don't really yeah yeah exactly. I don't give a [ __ ] about that and what. that allows to happen is allows poachers.

to come in and kill them wantonly right. but if instead ok we're protecting them. we have a revenue stream right we get. money when you know hunters come in and. pay a lot of money to go kill one animal. right now we've got a way to hire guards. we've got a way this is now a resource. that we're protecting right and that. sounds a little cynical but it is. working in some places and it's both. cynical and affect and effective and we. have a we had a woman on from the IUCN. International think Union for. Conservation of Nature vation group. talking about how this is effective now.

in some places if you got a corrupt. government we're just gonna pocket the. bunny yeah that's bad right but the. point is just because the mere idea of. someone going overseas and killing an. animal is not necessarily the worst. thing in the world we have to look at. the details the situation and it's hard. for animal lovers to hear animal lovers. don't like to hear that yeah they don't. they don't and I like I said I don't. like to hear it I wish people just just. what freaks me out more than anything is. that there's no other options it's not.

like a bunch of people or donating a. bunch of money to keep these areas clean. and free of poachers and the amount. would be massive right we can donate. money but yeah yeah that that's the when. you've got a problem that big and. intractable as how do you save these. animals you know and against habitat. encroachment right again you know people. want a farm on that land people you know. people have people have lives right. they're not sitting around going the. people in those countries not sitting. around going oh I love the cute elephant.

like we have the luxury to do they like. [ __ ] live there right and so how do. you get how do you get those people in. that society to really protect those. animal that's a hard question to answer. and some places are having success with. that strategy and that's something that. we can understand we don't have to. approve of it in every single case and. we can say that's really tough for us as. animal lovers and in fact the character. who I'm talking to on the show says I. still just hate the idea of an animal. being killed right and I say yes so do i. right we try to dramatize that emotional. you know resistance on the show like.

that emotional reaction that we have. yeah I I also don't like the idea of an. animal being killed brutally you know. I think I'm uncomfortable with the idea. right but if my main goal is to preserve. the population these animals overall the. souther from going extinct maybe I need. to accept that this tough truth that. once in a time once in a while one's got. to be shot through the head with a rifle. maybe I need to accept that it's really. when it comes to things that people. don't like I don't understand the.

psychology like Michael Douglas in the. what was that movie with the Val Kilmer. the ghost in the darkness that the Lions. that decided to kill those dudes I'd. never heard of this movie - great movie. the ghost in the darkness I feel like. it's from the 90s but it's a really good. movie about a true story about this guy. that they brought they brought this. Michael Douglas character was brought in. to hunt these lions that were. systematically targeting and killing. these workers that worked on this.

railroad this team of lions worked. together and started eating people wow. that's great mowing and yeah we're good. it sounds and they have to they have to. go for the Alliance yeah yeah there is. ghosts in darkness. oh holy have a biting tension that is a. great hunter Val Kilmer is looking good. there those pre fatso looking guy -. handsome that's the problem you had to. just go off the deep end another one. people got really mad about this is this.

weirdly the one we got the biggest. reaction to and to the extent that I'm a. little hesitant talking about it because. it always starts to storm every time I. do scenes no actually we've not done a. whole one on vaccines but we really. should because it's coming back I used. to think that vaccines was like kind of. done as a topic and like we've gone. through it is really it is really back. in it as big but no we did one on alpha. males we never said about dating and we. did one on how the idea of the alpha. male doesn't exist in humans like if you.

talk to any anthropologist any biologist. any sociologist right and be like are. humans organized in a social. relationship where there's alpha and. beta it's the big no what are you. talking about this is an unscientific. idea right and we just did something. laying that out in the context of like. people who are oh my type is I like. alphas right well there's no such thing. actually you know. humans are some your dominance some. situations not another's right it's an. overly simplistic way of looking at. human relationships and I thought. there's a pretty simple straightforward. thing I was like it's just a bit of. pseudoscience that you hear people.

tossing out and people went ballistic on. the internet because people have sort of. like built a edifice of ideology in. their minds about like there's alphas. there's betas I'm an alpha this is what. an alpha is like this is what a bait is. like you know and let's take away the. words yeah they're clearly men who are. more aggressive and athletic and. dominant and more confident and and then. men who are introverted and shy and more. nervous and anxious and there's a scale.

in some in some situations you know live. situations social well yeah but your. social situation could change based on. what situation you're in you know that. in light but a like an athletic. confident male is always going to be an. athletic confident male and an. introverted anxious male who has. problems with social anxiety is going to. be the same that's that that's who that. person I don't think so necessarily but.

so when we're talking about alpha alpha. is right in animals what is that it's a. social hierarchy right in let's take. away that word I mean what what people. are using to describe when they're. saying alphas and betas they're saying. like confident strong secure people and. people that are anxious and not so if. you're trying to say hey like it's good. to be confident it's not so great to be. anxious like that's that's fine right. but when people talk about alpha males. and beta males right there specifically.

bringing in the language of like. evolution of biology of zoology of. evolutionary psychology you know and. they'll start saying stuff like well. there's alphas and there's betas and. women are hard-wired to be attracted to. the Alpha you know because that's what. it's like in nature like they'll be. using that language that snot scientific. right it's not but it is true that women. are hard-wired to be attracted to. confident athletic men I don't know well. I don't know if I agree with that but. yeah you don't think that women look at.

like pro athletes and like big. strong athletic men and you don't think. they're drawn to that for evolutionary. reasons I know I don't actually I think. that do you think that men are drawn to. women with small waists and big hips and. large breasts for evolutionary reasons. you know I think that's an easy I think. what that is is that's an easy intuition. to come to if you're like looking at the. way people behave right but one of the. things about evolutionary psychology is. it's the most common mistake to look at. the way that people do behave and say.

the reason what we behave that way is. because evolution says that's the best. way right that's their argument for. instance I'll give an exact that the. argument that was arguments like you. like that word used for instance to. justify slavery right that like oh. because you know whites and blacks have. this hierarchical relationship in. American society that's the way it was. intended that's how nature intended it. to be right Charlie the shapes of bodies. yeah men universally are attracted to a. certain shape of bodies there's men that.

are attracted to different ones I don't. think I attract very but that hourglass. shape has been throughout time something. that men are attracted to I think that. hourglass shape is something throughout. our recent cultural memory that we tell. each other that men are attracted to. right that's when that's when we're. that's what we're told from an early age. to this that this is the sort of women. that men are attracted to and so a lot. of men end up adopting that right but I. don't think that deep down that's how. men naturally are you know really yeah I.

read that but that doesn't make any. sense to me. that's so non-intuitive because I'm all. about things that are not you think well. where do you think it started where do. you think this this narrative of men. being attracted the woman with large. breasts and a small waist and a big ass. where do you think that started because. this is like evolutionary biology has. pretty much settled on the idea that the. reason why is the large hips would. indicate that the woman be easier to. give birth having large breasts on a. large ass and indicate that she has. she's she's fertile and then she has an.

ample fat storage in the right places if. she's going to be pregnant and carry. children there's all these like. evolutionary biology reasons why people. attract to certain things why a woman. wiII be attracted to a tall muscular. hand. amande good genetics very strong and. confident to take care of her all these. things are based on evolutionary biology. so I understand why you think these are. learned sort of cultural artifacts so my. my quit my question is this is an. assumption that we the public make about.

how evolutionary biology works right. well it's more of a thing that we sort. of agree on well we we as the like. there's a there's an idea among the. public that this is true I don't know if. it's a scientific idea that's that's my. you have I've had conversations with. evolutionary biologists who explained. the reason why men are attracted to. certain shapes and why women are. attracted to certain shapes this is this. is sort of I mean this is science in a. way this the reason why they're. attracted to tall men that are muscular.

and confident is because that is what's. always saved you throughout history I. mean totally make sense doesn't it it. well just because it makes the the point. of our show right is that just because. something makes intuitive sense doesn't. mean that it's necessarily true right. don't you think that in this case that. this is a varied argument like I don't. think that's something that you can. dismiss I don't I don't dismiss it but I. don't assume the truth of it simply. because that's what you know everybody.

agrees upon right if you ask girls like. what are you into didn't you say if you. are you into tall muscular confident men. who are also nice to do Jesus Christ. it's gonna be off the charts it's gonna. be like most of them I'm you know I'm. really not sure that's the case. really yeah thank you you had like a. survey of women and if the men were. equally kind and equally intelligent and. friendly you don't think that more women. would be sexually attracted to these.

tall handsome men with great bodies I. mean look I'm not gonna I'm not gonna. say that like first of all you're. positing like a value judgment in it. that the bodies are great right so like. our women attracted to attractive bodies. if that's the question then then I would. say here's something that I was really. influenced by Iran you think of that. what I just said though that doesn't. make sense to you that women would be. attracted to someone who's fit look I.

mean it's a it's a hypothetical right. like I certainly athleticism right is. something that is attractive right. that's something that many people find. attractive right not everybody finds. that attractive and I don't think that. we can necessarily reason backwards to. like a specific evolutionary. relationship right because the truth of. what those evolutionary relationships. are is like often a lot more complicated. than you know our immediate intuition. about it and what were you specifically. pushing back against in that segment is.

like the really sort of unscientific you. know use of alpha and beta yeah exactly. where it's like you know you've got. people you know just on internet forums. like sort of doing amateur pseudoscience. right saying like this is how the. relationship between men and women are. like designed evolutionarily and we were. just pointing out on a very very simple. level like the Alpha and Beta social. hierarchy theory right that like humans. are organized in a social hierarchy and. alphas are above betas not true right.

even someone who is the person who you. posited right the person who is athletic. and confident right the you know the. high school football quarterback right. first is the high school football nerd. right well take those two people and. then put them in a different situation. right if those two people are like in. gym class together right of course the. high school quarterback is like on the. top of that social interaction right. looking at the sort of you know classic. Wolfpack model they're the one who's. sort of running the show right and the. other guys like hanging out in the.

bleachers talking to his friends right. or talking to nobody because he's a he's. a beta in that situation right if you. then take that kid and then you you know. send that kid to like nationals right or. whatever you know and that kid sir I. take the the quarterback character and. you know he's suddenly like you know. from the little podunk town right he's. not from the big school he's like way. down the totem pole right that person is. no longer going to be in that high. social hierarchy right and if you take. that nerd and you put that you know take.

that kid maybe use the dungeon master of. his you know dungeon dragons group right. that that kid is gonna be the Alpha in. that situation right that's how humans. work you know humans aren't organized in. sort of like little pods that. stay together for life and there's one. person who's dominant the whole time. right and that's the simple point that. we were making in that piece right and. people you upset. yeah people got upset because there are. so many people who we talked about this. later on the show there's this idea. called the backfire effect right where. when people are told something that they. don't agree with that when they when.

they someone has told somebody a fact. when somebody has told a fact that. contradicts like a really deeply held. belief it can often cause them to. disbelieve it even when it's true right. in fact that fight back even harder yeah. one of the reasons that happens is. because of an idea called identity. protective cognition it's if the fact. that is being debunked is literally part. of your identity like you know something. that you believe really really deeply. it's incredibly hard for you to. disbelieve it right the classic example. of this is like you know Sean Hannity. Sean Hannity doesn't believe in climate.

change right really well you know what I. actually don't know that specifically. what Sean Sean Hannity thinks about. climate change so let's just say. somebody who's made their whole career. on climate change doesn't exist right. all their friends are in the anti. Climate Change community right they met. their wife at an anti climate change. fundraiser you know what I mean they. make their money there at a new anti. Climate Change book every year right now. climate change is real right there's no. evidence I could present that person. with that is going to make them take the. social risk of ending all their.

relationships changing their whole life. right because if they were to say okay. you know what actually I'm convinced. climate change is real they would lose. all their friends their wife would leave. them they would lose their revenue. stream they can't possibly come to that. conclusion right and so they fight back. so super hard right and so that's what. ended up happening with that segment. there's a whole group of people who have. built their whole lives on the idea. there's alphas and betas I'm an alpha. I'm not gonna be a beta right and so and. and maybe that messily positive to them. you know maybe they have we're in a bad.

place in their life and through this. model of alpha versus beta they started. working out or they started you know. improving themselves a little bit right. and maybe they started acting a little. bit more confidently and now they're in. a relationship right all those things. can be true with the idea of alphas and. betas and humans not being scientific. right but so when I tell them that they. fight back really hard no no no this is. this is real this is real you know and. so that video which again I had no idea. that be controversial I got the most. YouTube's response videos got the most. you know furious thing things were met.

and the weirdest thing was people start. to say this is political. likewise Adam ruins everything getting. political Mike I don't know what the. hell they're talking about this is I. have no idea. I have no idea it's political alphas and. betas are no political I mean that's. what people were saying I guess I guess. you know for some people it's become. that but because they've see it as part. of like I don't their whatever argument. they're in their head they're having. about feminism or something like but to. me I'm just like guys in dating right in. life like this is not a real concept if. you want to say I'm gonna be confident. tomorrow I'm not gonna tell you that's.

not gonna help you out you know and you. know I am a little bit reticent to make. like a broad conclusion about. evolutionary psychology right but I can. tell you again go talk to any. anthropologist any biologist any you. know sociologist is there such a thing. as alpha males in humans and the. strictest scientific sense of the word. in this industry yeah exactly. and I think they're looking at in terms. of like winners and losers pushovers and. people who get the job done you know. confident people versus people are not. confident but I think you're correct and.

I think obviously humans operate on a. giant spectrum and if you start going. around saying alpha and beta and that. the idea that all alphas are the same or. all betas are the same it's just as. ridiculous as the idea of all the. Democrats are the same it becomes an. ideology exactly Pro male ideology and I. have the biggest problem with like. overconfident men's rights guys yeah cuz. I'm like listen we have all the rights. yeah I had a whole bit about it it was.

like it's like divorce laws and that's. it. everything else is stacked in our favor. yes [ __ ] chill out you're making us. look bad and the problems that men have. are different than the problems those. guys think men have right so for. instance we did a segment on stereo weed. an episode on stereotypes called Adam. ruins a sitcom where we talked about. different you know we talked about. stereotypes via you know sort of a. cheesy 80s sitcom ahead of law.

stereotypes in it so you got the. stereotypical black kid you got the. stereo go asian kid. give the stereo a neighbor outwards HOV. gay never know we didn't do that well. there's only three acts on the show you. know what I mean I wish we could on that. and. and women and all sorts of things but we. and we had a stereotypical dad you know. like a home improvement type dad you. know and what we talked about is like. those there are ways that men are being. harmed by the sort of narrow idea of. what a man is you know for instance men. have a very high suicide rate right.

and specifically loneliness is a health. problem for men for like older men like. take my dad right my dad's about 65 he. doesn't have a friend you know I hope he. doesn't hear this but you know yeah like. he has like work colleagues. he's got my mom you know he's got me. he's got I'm sure he's got people he's. friendly with you know I mean but isn't. have a best friend you know who doesn't. who comes over to watch you know the Red. Sox with him thanks terrified yeah and. the thing is loneliness is associated.

with early death you know and with. disease right and like when you look at. the way that we bring up men men are. socialized to not have close. relationships with each other you know. really yeah well like we talked about. from an early age we talked about this. so briefly on the show but we could have. gone into a whole episode on it from an. early age. researchers have found this that little. boys when they're very young are very. close with form very close friendships.

that are physical friendship they hug. you know they'll kiss they'll you notice. um that you know what I mean don't have. physical close friendships like that and. then they reach an age where that starts. to become not okay right where it. becomes oh that's not how boys act right. and girls are still doing that with. their friends they're still holding. hands with their friends you know. there's still you know having close. relationships like that and boys start. to start to be a little bit of a. distance you know and you know it's easy. to say well when you're a teenager. that's because the stigma against being. gay and like we don't want to appear gay. but it happens even younger than like.

kids would even have a notion of that. you know so it really seems to be a deep. down way that we bring up boys of like. hey don't get too close to each other. you know what I mean that's a little. weird it's just a little weird for boys. to do that you know and we do that we do. it from a young age is very subtle and. very subtle but it's universal I mean in. America it seems to be and you know I. yeah I've even felt that myself like. I've often had an easier time having. close close relationships with women. rather than men yeah as friendships yeah.

as friendships yeah man I don't just in. terms of who I talk about my. relationships and stuff you have good. friendships with women mostly that are. comics but almost all my good friends. are guys a lot of good friends I mean. you're lucky if that's the case I. certainly am but I've had a little bit. of distance from your male friends you. know of like not being of not getting. really into it emotionally you know look. if you don't feel that way that's fine I. felt that myself my and I'm Chad we're.

results in some people villas me you. felt it some people feel it'll be yeah I. don't experience that and I'm you know. most of my friends that I know have good. male friends and they're pretty tight. with people well when the point is that. like there is a trend especially in. older age right anybody whether it's a. male or female when you get older and. you don't have any friends that's about. saying well so demographically we know. that that happens to men more than women. right then man my dad's age is more.

likely to have less friends than a woman. my mom's age you know why I mean I think. that's one of those things where I would. hesitate to make a big conclusion but I. mean I would say I think we can draw a. link between that and you know that men. are sort of like socialized to not have. these close friendships but so that is a. serious problem that men have that men. face right another one we talk about is. stuff like you know drinking and smoking. for instance those are behaviors that. are much more pushed on me you know. those are much more advertised towards. men right and those are dangerous.

right those will like hurt you. physically and can lead to an early. death right those are those can lead to. bad health outcomes and so those are. things that men face that are different. than the challenges that women face and. can result in bad health outcomes for us. you know and it's so funny how the sort. of like men's rights people you know. they're they don't talk about that stuff. quite as much they talk about you know. violence and and you know people being. hurt at work and stuff like that like. man having dangerous occupations and. that's and that stuff true is true as. well but like these are the more subtle. ways that you know men are.

are hurt by the sort of narrow. expectations of what a man is that we. put on men hey men are like this you. should be like this you know and some of. those things hurt men do you think we. still do that though did ya still put. narrow expectations on what man I. totally I totally do I think we might be. lucky here in LA you know because we can. sort of like live any way that we choose. I mean you clearly live exactly how you. want to live which is great you know and. and I get to as well but I think that.

you know we're we're lucky and that. we're so self actualized you know what I. mean that that maybe we face a little. bit less pressure than then you know. your average Joe across the country yeah. but I don't know of anyone who's putting. pressure on men to not be friendly with. other men that seems so ridiculous to me. didn't deny camaraderie obviously in the. military it's a huge aspect of military. service is the Brotherhood yeah that. these guys form with each other and.

that's about you know if you want to. talk about traditional male values. that's about as manly a thing as a. person can do right serve their country. very much so. but are like men for instance and. courage to you know be emotionally. vulnerable with with their friends for. instance like I think that's something. that's like don't do it they're gonna. bring it up when you argue there's a. level of intimacy that were that were. like and and that sort of intimacy is. what leads to long friendships you know.

that really really lasts right it's a. balancing act I think because I think. there's there is intimacy and then. there's also guys who are just being a. [ __ ] things are real ladies be able to. be intimate and to be vulnerable and. explain how you feel but then sometimes. you shouldn't be just [ __ ]. complaining about things you figure your. life out and man the [ __ ] up and go do. something and it's not necessarily you. being emotionally vulnerable as you like. to say it in such a normalizing way it.

might it might just be being a [ __ ]. well - you don't think that when you say. that you put a little pressure on on men. at all - yes I put pressure on man yeah. well there. maybe you are maybe you're the one. putting a little pressure yes they need. some pressure I think most men need just. a little bit of a motivational shove in. the general direction of success and. happiness and a lot of that is. overcoming laziness and implying or. applying some discipline to your life I. think those things are manly attributes.

that turn out to actually be good for. you you know I think there's a lot of I. don't disagree with you about about some. of those aspects being good for you let. me just give one of their example and. I'm blanking on the name of this podcast. I can I can look it up if you want but a. very wonderful podcast about philosophy. but last far as this know I love. philosophize this it's a great one here. I'll look up what it was as I'm talking. about it but really wonderful podcast. where they were talking to this guy who. was in the military and has PTSD right.

and he was talking about how the idea of. be a man right was just a phrase that he. would hear a lot in the military right. and oh it's called hyphenation is the. name of the podcast and there's an. episode called be a man - really. wonderful podcast about philosophy and. it's talking about that idea of be a man. right what does that mean in in the. military and look I'm just repeating. what's in the pocket I have no military. experience myself I don't want to claim. to but and you know that means sort of.

like overcome adversity right don't. complain too much right if you have a. problem solve it yourself kind of thing. right and he talked about and they also. talked with medical professionals who. said the same thing that that idea can. doesn't give men the tools they need to. deal with PTSD right and can actually. exacerbate PTSD because it means that. they're not trained how to reach out for. help you have those problems no I. couldn't and so in situation I think oh. yeah it's a different example of just a. way that that sort of narrow idea be a. man being a man means this a real man.

would do this right mm-hmm that does. that works in some situations maybe that. works when you're you know in a foxhole. right it doesn't work so well when. you're out of it right and so that's a. narrow idea that can lead to a bad. outcome sure but that's basically what. we were just saying that you know you. should be emotionally vulnerable and. know how to express yourself with your. friends and be honest. about how you feel about things but you. also should know when you're being a. [ __ ] both of those things real fair. fair enough if you're on a hike with a. friend and he has to stop every five.

minutes because his foot hurts like come. on man just [ __ ] walk you're walking. fine I completely no absolutely agree I. don't think this is worth it. I mean this is not what I had in mind I. started hooking guys beat a [ __ ] right. yeah yeah yeah he needs to man the [ __ ]. up right but let me but I tend to say. man the [ __ ] up because it was a woman. what would you say you'd say toughen up. just soldier on would you say well I. don't think that the reason I'm hesitant. to use that word is I don't think that. being tough is exclusively a male right.

that's why I said if you're a woman what. would you say we'd say tough enough yeah. in the same situation you got to toughen. up yeah yeah with it. yeah yeah yeah press on yeah but men. like the we like to equate that to one. of our best attributes being a [ __ ]. man yes I'm a [ __ ] what what if. you're what what if you're on that walk. with on that hike with a friend you know. and your friend is legit afraid of hikes. I've been on in front I don't know hikes.

with sorry I haven't said hikes heights. went on a hike I went on a hike with a. friend my friend had we were in Zion. National Park which has some very narrow. that's right Utah yeah my friend had had. a panic attack right because because of. the hike and it was it was you know and. that's legit right and thank God he was. able he felt able to share it with me. right but if we you know so that's so. that's the balancing act of creating an. environment where you're not hey yeah. don't complain about your foot but hey.

if you're really in distress like you. can share that with me and some men feel. that they can't do that and I remember. when I was younger you know feeling well. I want to I really have this problem but. I can't express that to my friends. because they're gonna make fun of me. right and that sucks and so my goal is. to and what that segment that we did. about manliness was about was saying hey. if you if you're a man and being a man. to you means you know being confident. being assertive and stuff like that. great qualities not bad qualities at all.

right but we want to expand the notion. of manliness so it includes all the. four ways that one can be a man right. that that is it's as wide as possible. right so you guys like the progress you. cut it down the expression manliness. right that's the problem cuz manliness. like instantly becomes handsome. aggressive you know muscular cultural. idea womanliness is more like soft and. kind yeah you know you don't think of it. sexually right when you see you think of.

womanliness isn't really a word that's. used but if it was yeah womanly that. those are there cultural ideas that we. associated with those things right but I. so so let me just give you my example I. personally I love taking care of other. people. right with me and my me and my. girlfriend we be together 10 years one. of the main things I love to do in our. relationship is I really like cooking. for her. you know what I mean I like taking care. of her that's like something that I. enjoy right that's the part of my.

manliness that's like how I am a man you. know what I mean right. feels good food and you can it down and. yeah do something for and cook for you. can associate it with yep providing goes. back to that you know classic sort of. Matt you know manly value I'm not even. saying in that sense yeah there's. nothing wrong with that word but in that. sense you you want to give ya executive. and that's not a value that I was.

brought up with of like that's a manly. thing to do right is to like be kind and. be nurturing you know what I mean but. it's something that I really that that. really means a lot to me yeah well it. wasn't what I was brought up with and so. to me it's important to like expand you. know my notion of what it was really a. big deal for me to like realize that. that was part of what being a man was to. me and I noticed that like you know for. instance like let's just take the.

example of like you know kids. entertainment like growing up you know. like kids cartoons and stuff like that. like the female characters are the ones. who are taking care of other people and. the male characters are the ones who are. kicking ass right and I like kicking ass. sometimes too but I realized at one. point I was like oh I didn't have like. models of that as a kid of like here's a. man. who takes care of other people. emotionally or you know or in a caring. way you know it's a phil does I see what.

you saying yeah yeah I mean whenever you. have a label especially a narrow label. it's a problem you know and I think the. the idea of Manliness or like what it. entails and the problems that people. would have about that on the outside. it's almost always problems that are. being imposed on them like with the. ideas that are being opposed on them or. people who don't like the way they live. you don't like who they are or want to.

mock who they are how they live so. someone's too emotional if someone's too. introverted instead of celebrating that. or that guy's different. cool yeah instead of that it's the bully. yeah mocking and and [ __ ] on them. the jock type behavior yeah we. associated with being the negative. aspect of masculinity total toxic. masculinity is which is the phrase that. gets tossed around yeah but I think this. is you know this is just shitty humans I. agree you know I mean that's really.

where the problem and it's not specific. to it's not specific to men right it's. everybody but let me give you one more. example just to get back to what you're. talking about about body type and what. people are attracted to I read this. wonderful advice column it's this guy. who this guy doesn't advise it's got a. kind of silly names doctor nerd love but. he does a really good a vise column and. this dude wrote in and said hey I'm with. a woman she's you know a little bit. bigger of a gal you know then I've dated. in the past I really am into her she's.

so cool but she's not my type I'm not. normally into women like this and that. bothers me that she's not my type right. even though I'm into her so much she's. not my type what do I do about this. she's not my type and I loved this guy's. answer he wrote back and he said dude. she's your [ __ ] type you like her. right you're into her you think she's a. sexy woman right the problem is you were. brought up in a world where it's not. okay for men don't like women like that. it's not okay to like women who are her. size and you've you've ingested at your. whole life and now.

you're hating yourself because you were. told something that about what's okay. for you to like and what's not okay for. you to like and I really related to that. you know because I remember feeling that. way about girls I dated like hold on a. sec oh I'm into her so much but oh wait. is she not. is she not like attractive right am I. wrong to be dating her because she. doesn't fit what I you know the sort of. like set of parameters for what an. attractive woman is right and so when. you talk about what people say that what. people say they're attractive if you ask. any woman wouldn't she say she's. attracted this kind of man if you ask.

any man what she said she's attracted. that kind of woman. yeah they might say that right but deep. down do they maybe have a desire that is. not being you know that they've been. told is wrong their whole lives right I. really related to that I was like man. that is really a good point I have been. told that my whole life and it has I've. allowed it to control who I'm attracted. to to a certain extent you know and. that's a mental prison that I want to. get out of you know and you know now I.

have the benefit I'm a little bit older. you know and I feel like I'm in less. mental prisons than I used to be I feel. like you're in no mental prisons at all. at all I feel like a lot of your. listeners you know I have broken out of. them you know but especially I think. back about like when I was 16 years old. and yeah I you know you're swimming in. that [ __ ] and you don't know to question. it yet a lot of the time and that's what. our show is about is getting people to. question those assumptions and those. things that you're being told without. even realizing you're being told them. but there is a problem with young men. and their identities like them wanting. other people to think them as cool yeah.

them as cool think of them as someone. who's successful or someone who's doing. well that's a weird safe thing to say. you know I'm I'm really into her but. she's not my type but you know the. problem there seems to in my mind in my. estimation seems this guy's worry too. much about his identity yeah and instead. of just being who he is exactly worried. about his identity and and that's a. really tough thing to get over and. that's what we were trying to help. people get over in that episode but you. know when I think about in my you know.

when I was getting started in comedy am. I in my 20s you know the amount of time. I spent worrying before I went onstage. about how what I was going to say it was. going to come off it was if it was going. to be cool. or if I get made fun of by the other. guys in my comedy group about like the. other people at the open mic you know. really like I did I did just come up in. alt rooms. yeah the meanest [ __ ] [ __ ]. are those super nerds. like a super progressive [ __ ] mean do.

so goddamn socially vicious yeah no. especially just at the open mics in New. York City you know it was a real LA to. say you know yeah cuz they're there. there's no like organization I didn't I. never set foot in a club because I was. like I don't want to deal with anybody. at the club thinking oh I'm trying to. get a spot or whatever I was like I'm. just doing bar shows open mic stuff like. that and yeah there's no rules so it's. just social enforcement and it's just. people being like I'm the big dog like. and people would like cross their arms. during other people's sets or like say. [ __ ] and like it really [ __ ] sucked.

and the only way I don't give a [ __ ]. about what any of these [ __ ]. think yeah you know and I know I'm gonna. identify the people who I think are. doing good work and who I think are. funny and then hopefully they laugh at. me too I'm gonna focus on that but but. you should look at the people that are. crossing their arms with amusement. because all those young fools yeah. you're fools I know what you're doing. you just throw in poison at people for. no reason. totally you know okay especially in open. mic nights and those kind of shows those. bar shows people are just developing.

yeah you know you're watching little. babies run around and nursery oh yeah. what they're trying to do with the how. many babies those people are trying to. do is they're trying to say well I know. the difference between good and bad and. that's one of the reasons I'm good and. so on I say that you're bad exactly. that's [ __ ] it's [ __ ] yeah and a. lot of them aren't funny it's a real. part of the problem they're trying to. enforce a narrow band of comedy because. they think they can operate inside those. parameters yeah but if they wanted to go. on stage the Comedy Store after Joey. Diaz they'd burst in the playing is not.

that good I know you think you have a. point but what you're saying is not your. art is not that way no you listen to the. Bill burr podcast and you think that. makes you. everybody but the number of people who. billboard wouldn't do it like that or. whatever like that kind of thing is like. so so off the off the charts of energy. you know it really is and the best the. best energy in these small groups the. best way to use your energy is to.

appreciate good work and recognize bad. work and recognize maybe you have some. of that aspect totally in yourself some. some aspects of bad work in your own act. and maybe you should trim it out and. look at yourself objectively the way. you're looking at this person but the. whole cross your arms and let's. someone's stealing or doing something. racist or clearly [ __ ] up socially you. know like what do you care yeah they. just did you suck you suck too bro yeah. open might get 11 p.m. three hours to do.

three minutes you know like your first. couple years on stage was terrible I. want to go back and hug everyone who's. ever in the audience and say I'm sorry I. didn't mean to put you through whatever. the [ __ ] I did up there that 10 minutes. of nonsense I'm sorry you know one time. what I was doing open mics I was doing. husband three open mics a night in New. York you know and I've kind of missed. that it was like really fun it's like. going to the gym you know it's like. bouncing around bump a bump a bump but. you know you really get used to it and.

there was one night I can't remember why. the hell this happened but my girlfriend. and her friend and they're both. cartoonists my girl my girlfriend is a. incredible cartoonist on her name's Lisa. Hanawalt and so she's funny you know. these are funny people for some reason. they're like we want to come to the open. mic at the creaking cave in New York I. was like you do okay here we go. and they sat there and they were like we. sat in the front row and they were like. their their hands were like covering. their eyes they were like oh like every. single person what is he doing this.

person what were they thinking like they. were thing is just like the worst freak. show to them yeah and I was like yeah I. do this every single like everything. that every shitty mistake or every weird. thing that every person did that I was. totally like blank to that I had seen a. million times they were like shocked by. what was caught on that stage. and it made me really enjoy going to. those mics again because it made me see. for the first time you know like made me. fresh again - like how [ __ ] weird.

I'll miss open mic so much because it's. such a beautiful disaster right because. you're right every single person that. goes up on an open mic is sweating. basically they're doing like they're. like endurance training like they're. doing something that is physically. uncomfortable even socially terrible and. they're bad at it and they're just doing. it over and over again until they get. used to it so that they can just go up. on stage without flop sweating you know. that like everyone just watching a. hundred people in a row have panic. attacks basically and people are just.

being there weird [ __ ] selves and you. see a lot of nonsense and then you see a. lot of people worry like goddamn that. person is there is a core there and. they're gonna be really [ __ ] funny. and I love the fact that I know so many. people from those days we've just all. grown up together and now they're all. right in sitcoms or they're doing you. know I met Michelle wolf our first week. doing open mics it was so cool we met. like I was like my second open mic and.

it was like her third open mic and we. saw each other at her and a couple. friends I was like you guys are funny. you're funny and she was like eh we're. gonna sew their mic you want to come yep. let's go. and then I've known her ever since and. then like to see her do that Whitehorse. Corps White House Correspondents Dinner. it was like I just felt all that history. all at once I was like this is [ __ ]. amazing you know I was so what did you. think when the president was tweeting at. her that's what a comics supposed to do. you know like the way that she pissed. people off that was such a beautiful. that was such a beautiful moment and I.

loved it she was so [ __ ] funny and. great writing - it was great funny [ __ ]. yeah she wrote it a bunch of our friends. from those days Anthony DeVito Greg. Stone Dan st. Germain I believe helped. her write jokes and yeah they were. really funny. and guess what like the crowd didn't. want comedy apparently but they got one. of the best comics in the country you. know who's like on that she's in her. prime right now and she [ __ ] tore it. up she did her job better than they. wanted and they got pissed off about it. and it was they got.

it was like a three-day news cycle of. how much but everybody hated her where. there didn't get pissed off some of they. were like tweeting like Maggie Haberman. for the New York Times was tweeting like. oh I feel bad for you know Sarah. Huckabee like for though for the you. know light jab that she got about her. eye makeup was breathing it was so. nothing and they were talking about what. they say she the parents shamed she. appearance she was the word they were. looking yeah yeah I forget what it was. and she she got off flight everybody got.

off flight yes great. people forget when Colbert did that ten. years earlier and he was a applauded for. it the people in the room hated that too. if you go back watch that video he gets. no laughs when he's making fun of bush. it's an almost famous like comedy. appearances ever right and he got zero. laughs in the room it's dead quiet it's. bizarre if you watch it and then a year. later it was a bear he's the master he. did it done it uh that was one of the. big moments for comedy getting serious. and like satire getting that was a. breakout for him and like the political.

hacks in the room can't take it cuz they. don't I don't know why they book comics. cuz they do not want comedy right and. that's why they I guess they're you know. they're not gonna book comedy anymore. but here's an interesting cat man yes. yes a bunch of things rolled up into one. because he's a he's a legitimate. Catholic like yeah really Catholic yeah. despite all the scandals and kid [ __ ]. and all the craziness and then on top of. that he's this character but now he's. not the character anymore. no now he's like a guy who's not totally.

playing the character but the character. comes in and out like little shadows yes. it does it's like what are you what's. your real thoughts on things cuz I know. you as Colbert ya know you from The. Colbert Report this hilarious fake. Republican guy yeah and now I'm seeing. him I'm not sure what's going on here. man yeah I mean he's well and when. you're put when you're in late night you. know I play character on my show too. that's like a heightened version of. myself that's developed it's like a very. extra nerdy it's almost like me as.

pee-wee Herman a little bit like it's. it's uh towards me as my younger self. it's like very socially awkward I'm a. lucky sorry like it's a lot of up there. you know yeah and it's different than. what I do onstage. and you know I can only imagine even. though he's still he's like his big. thing for late night was like I'm gonna. be myself I'm not the character anymore. you still build a little bit of a. character for yourself you know yeah. well also with him it's like that's what. brought him to the dance yeah the reason. why you there's like what what kind of. meetings that they have with him yeah.

what are we gonna do here we're gonna. hide this straight so bear I heard him. say once he only said this in one. interview but he was like we're. basically creating a new character for. late-night and so he had the same. writers from from The Colbert Report and. so he was like we're sort of like. creating a new character how does this. character work but I gotta say the old. show I mean he's he's great the old show. was probably the best performance ever. made by a single late-night comic. because the way that heat when I watch. it now if I go back and watch clips I'm. like the way he would do like three or.

four fast little turns you know you know. single line where it would like mean one. thing but there'd be some subtext and he. would flip around and he would do it. like it was like watching like a figure. skater do triple axels you know like. watching him do that it was it was. really impressive. I'd like the guy don't get me wrong but. I like him more on Colbert Report and I. like him as a late-night talk show host. but I think I think that's also my. prejudice against that format I'm like. you guys just saw what Jack Paar did and. kept going totally it's the same goddamn.

thing but I understand why he couldn't. do the cold but he did that show off. like ten years you know like you can't. you can't do that was a limited thing. for him you know like he had that. character and so he could only do what. was in the box that character and so. he's looking to do more and and I get it. I also feel like man that Colbert Report. is more interesting than the late-night. show to me as a comic and as a comedy. writing fan well for sure because the. late-night shows are just promotion. shows that's all they are all they are. is hey Adam I hear you have a book out. hey - about your new show here's our ten. minutes of comedy before that and then.

we do that it's like it's it's basically. like a version of a commercial and the. and the nightly thing is a prison you. know because you can only talk about. what happened that day. so the smartest thing that you know John. Oliver right he was up for The Daily. Show he wanted to do the daily show he. was Jon Stewart's pick for The Daily. Show they said this in the oral history. book of The Daily Show. and then Comedy Central didn't close the. deal with Oliver and HBO came and said. you want to do a show instead you know. and Jon Stewart was like oh right go. with God that's what John Oliver did. instead so we're living in that.

alternate reality from John Oliver. hosting The Daily Show right and so the. smartest thing Oliver did was do weekly. and not daily because it lets him go. wider right if he was doing daily he. would have to just talk about what. happened that day you don't have that. much you don't guess what you can't have. as much of a complete thought in 24. hours or in realistically the six hours. you have between when you show up and. when you tape the show right you can't. say as much you it's it's harder and so. being on that you know weekly schedule. and he's only doing 30-something shows a.

year right because they have hiatuses. that's what allows them to have those. big long complete thoughts that everyone. likes so much you know is ransom yeah. intelligent takes those issues in. pointing out Apocrypha yeah great our. show it takes us we it takes us like. three or four months to write an episode. like we're writing 16 at once but like. you know that's how long we have to. think about it and so we're able to take. twists and turns you know we we go into. it thinking this is going to be our. angle and then we're diving into the. research we have a wonderful research. staff and they say actually this is the. more interesting part of the story and.

then we are have the time to go chase it. that way instead right whereas if we. were on a daily schedule oh [ __ ] well we. don't have time to pivot because we got. a show to make right you ever feel time. constraints like in terms of like the. subject matter the totally matters like. very very involved yeah I mean we try to. do the most difficult topics we can't. you know we don't hold back from. anything but the only constraint that we. have is that the show we've got 21. minutes and then in but we've got. commercials so we can only talk about.

some four six minutes before we have to. move on right and so that's the that's. the only limitation that we have like. the network will let us do anything. we've been on the show for food on the. network for four years the only time you. ever killed the show was we want to do. something about the n-c-double-a about. how the n-c-double-a shouldn't kill that. shouldn't kill sir is how it should pay. athletes right well the quality should. thank you. yeah we talk about that all the time. right yeah it is one of the craziest. [ __ ] scams in all of money let. college sports or it's unbeliev they're.

making so much money off those kids when. you watch those things every single. person's. paid every note everybody's getting pace. it guy best players the guy bringing. water to the announcers are getting paid. except for the players right so grand. the guy who literally I'm blanking on. his name but the guy who created this. system right who like formed the NCAA. later when he left he compared it to. Plantation slavery he was like this is. like slavery what I invented you know. there's no justification for it at all. it is bananas we want to do that topic.

for a college episode we pitched that to. truTV. you know what airs on truTV every March. March March Madness they said no they. said they said and here's here's how I. live with myself I I say look I will. never take a no until it's the only. absolute answer I can get so they said. no I say I really want to do it tell me. no again you know they told me no again. I was like if the president of the. network tells me no then I'm not doing. it and the president of Network told me. no okay that's the guy who I could write.

it and he could kill the episode so I. shouldn't have NC double-a on you're. worried about they're worried about. pissing off not yeah pissing off those. money-grubbing thieves really man those. athletic kids I'm with all these month. people are paying money to see those. [ __ ] kids that [ __ ] drives me crazy. yeah exploiting of young athletes in. college zonkers it is one of the ones. that drives me them because I got into. it with Joey Diaz who explained to me.

because Joey used to be a bookie and he. really understands gambling he was. explaining to me how much money gets. donated to these schools yeah by people. who used to go to them heels it's insane. yeah he said and most of it is based on. the performance that the school has in. the college sports yeah these people who. are you know I'm a [ __ ] you know blah. blah blah I went to school there and I'm. there too I died I [ __ ] go team yes. [ __ ] throw [ __ ] tons of money and. there's thousands of them all throughout.

history yeah years and years guys have. been donating for 25 [ __ ] years yep. and when they were team wins a. championship they give him a bonus more. ass. but who doesn't get the money is the. killer [ __ ] people who play the game. all they have to do so a well if you get. through here you're gonna do. and then you get to go to pro sports. yeah how many of them make it especially. in football almost none almost no but. look at it what are the numbers what is. it like I wonder what the numbers are. guys who sign up for college football. who make it first of all with a body.

that's functional yeah after four years. of 600 [ __ ] pound dudes slamming yeah. that big but Johnny I would slam it into. you we did a we did an episode on. football and the concussion time it's. not just concussions right it's like. just the little hits right it's just the. routine tackles you know I mean what. happens every single time you do that. your brain you guys think of it this way. your brain is riding your your skull is. the car your brain is a passenger your. brain doesn't have a seat belt right. every time you run into somebody boom.

your brain slides forward a little bit. because it's not wearing a seat belt. bumps into the front of your skull and. bounces back right and even if that. doesn't cause a concussion it causes a. little a little hurt every single time. right and so you can never get a. concussion do that over and over and. over again and you're gonna end up with. CTE yeah of trauma happens in soccer. players yeah it's a negation in soccer. and those kids are those kids are. hurting themselves. you know Jamie wrote here in football. out of 70 3557 NCAA positions.

approximate number who are draft. eligible is down to 16 thousand three. hundred forty six and now down to draft. picks. it's 256 so we're 256 out of 73,000 make. it two draft picks 1.6 percent make it. from the NCAA to the majors 1.6 percent. ridiculous some NCAA two major pro 1.6. percent that is [ __ ] crazy and let's.

be honest these kids are not getting the. education suppose baseball is almost 10. percent weight more teams with thick. minors and all like I'm not crazy though. that's wild. so it's 10 percent that's weird well. that's oh that's 10% of from draft. eligible to drafted Oh major but it's. not even the participants because look. that's that's 35 K 7-7 K our draft. eligible and then seven join a seven are. drafted right but look how low the. number is in terms of baseball. participants versus football. laughs yes than half and yet they have.

way higher percentage this is our. writings also so we look at charts also. the thing is like with baseball you. don't get hit right yeah unless you get. hit by a ball most of the time your. injuries just from running or sliding. and stuff like that yeah yeah well you. can get yeah you can get hit in the head. with a baseball yeah it's so much safer. yeah if I had a kid and the kid was. thinking like baseball football or. basketball I'm like well take that. football out of the [ __ ] equation you. got two choices. yeah cuz don't do it just don't do it.

you're not gonna make it no the very few. people that make it out of there without. like serious injury it's like it's not. worth it yeah it's just not especially. if you look at that seventy-five. thousand number if you look at for how. many kids are playing in the NCAA now. think about how many kids are playing. high school football I don't know the. number but it's got to be 10 times that. right he's showing this to me this kid. is gonna be he's the Heisman Trophy. winner and he already has been drafted. to the Major League Baseball but he's. also projected to potentially be in the. top five NFL picks whoa there's like a.

big discussion on what should he do it's. up to him obviously but players like. Deion Sanders who have been in both. leagues and have done both at the same. time is like play baseball. yeah well that's better for your life. because you're less you're less likely. to like you have brain damage do you. ever talk to a [ __ ] baseball player. that's retired so I'm talking to a. regular person yes that wants to be the. quarterback though you know yeah well. basketball player those guys clearly.

have the best of it like out of all the. major sports basketball players because. they I don't know about that because. that's a much more grueling schedule. physically first of all you're running. and shooting every night you're. sprinting you're doing all these. different things baseball is so much. more leisurely but the celebrity aspect. of basketball is so huge and like an. astronaut baseball's gigantic yeah yeah. a rod and it's still theirs yeah but 510. min max 10 guys on the court and if you. do anything cameras right on your face. yeah baseball this was pointed out to me.

the website Deadspin did this thing. where they were like pointing out the. problem with baseball today they went. around they asked people hey can you. name what's the most famous baseball. player that you could name and people. are like Derek Jeter a-rod the. papi Manny you know Manny is retired. guys and if you ask people they could. MIT if they're a baseball fan they'd say. someone from my team or maybe they'd say. Mike Trout or they'd say well it hasn't. the Yankees right but there is no a rod. Jeter like level celebrity right now. what happened I don't know exactly. I can steroids giving back the steroids.

they're not talking about fighting we're. talking about base well give them the. steroid worry about that stupid game is. when someone hits the ball does the. steroids make them hit the ball better. yes. okay well give it to them yeah [ __ ] are. you guys doing testing for that. performance-enhancing drugs man are the. craziest the debate about that we've. never done this on the show because I so. I'm not like you should have fully boned. up I would like to I've thought about in. the past because because the the. divisions it's like the rest of the drug.

war right the divisions we make between. the things that are acceptable and not. acceptable are so arbitrary right so the. example I always use is like okay why. don't why don't we like it. performance-enhancing drugs not everyone. has access to them so they're unfair. right they're bad for your health. and we think they're unnatural right. okay so yeah yeah well that's not the. reason why we think they're right but. boats also but there's some drugs you. can take that aren't cheating right like. no good take advantage is the reason why. it's cheating. that's the primary reason so here so let.

me give you a counter example for. runners right for endurance athletes. like me I like running I'm a shitty. runner but I like it I think it's a fun. sport so I followed a little bit so. runners endurance you know the big thing. is like how much your how much oxygen. your blood can hold right if you train. at a high altitude then you can increase. that right so there are these runners. the American runners right they live at. a high altitude they live super high up. you know in Colorado or whatever right. and then when they're not there they.

train there all year round they buy a. place there and then when they're not. there when they're competing somewhere. else they sleep in a chamber that. simulates low altitude right how is that. not the same thing as taking a. performance-enhancing drug like they. they you know that's not a it's not. illegal to do that right it's unnatural. right it is an unfair advantage because. not everybody can afford one of those. chambers and I'm not gonna say it's bad. for your health. I don't know but it certainly as weird. for your. body has taken a drug I would think. right so why it's not alive because it's.

only like living at altitude yes it's. really just simulates low altitude it's. not like taking just you know EPO which. would be the drug that would simulate. that which I've got recent experience. with not personally but because the UFC. just had one of its champions stripped. because of testing positive for EPO and. then we're just finding out now they. don't test for EPO and everybody hmm. that it's very expensive and so they do. it based on the athletes biological. passport and what they think they're. changing variables that you know for. whatever reason it triggers their their.

interest yeah they start testing. additionally it's a big deal so it's a. it's a serious drug I mean it's a. serious endurance drug that also has. like some serious health complications. people have died from taking it young. guys in their 20s in yeah cycling have. gotten strokes and died from EPO that's. yet but there's no health negative. effects of sleeping at altitude it's. just couldn't you afford to live there. can you grab route your life no if you. can't yeah it's an advantage for that.

person over you so I'm just saying we. have a we have sort of an ARB like yeah. it's sort of an arbitrary we're we're. drawing the lines is not consistent you. know everyone that is a big one that in. terms of the impact on sit is a big one. you're actually saying now that they. think the best best course of strategy. is to train at low altitude and then. sleep at high altitude they think that. when you train at low altitude you have. more output so you're putting in more. repetitions because you get more oxygen.

so you have more work yeah then you get. the same effect. by living at out so you get you get up. there and sleep and you don't have to. train up there and if you train up there. it's actually slightly less value hunt. than training it low out to and staying. up there damn because whatever I'm. whenever I'm staying somewhere high out. to live it like I just did a weekend in. Denver yeah and I was like going on a. run up there and it was like obviously. torture compared to like being here in. LA but I was like oh I'm getting strong. because I'm running at high altitude. that's not true that really [ __ ] with.

me. well you just really know it's work it. will help you yeah but it's if you are. an at like athletes or were literally. working for one or two percent of an. advantage occasional yeah on many. occasions when you are living at high. altitude and training at sea level they. think that that gives you a slight. advantage yeah cuz you can put more work. in especially for fighters they think. that skill work and repetitions and. drilling is one of the most important.

aspects of it and you can just simply. get in more repetitions yeah and get in. more drills hmm yeah but they you know. again though you're right because this. is sort of a performance-enhancing thing. you're not just living and just being. yourself and then showing up and. competing yeah you are engaging in this. activity that significantly raises your. red blood cells significantly raises. your oxygen capacity changes your cardio. yeah your vo2 max changes yeah here's. here's the word that it's just this.

there's this weird idea in sports and. look you know [ __ ] a lot more about. athletics than I do it's not my it's not. my real forte but I do you know I do. enjoy and the thing that's always weird. to me is that we have this idea that. like there's some kind of level playing. field that there's like baseline human. that we can just say well you gotta be. at the baseline right and humans are so. variable you're always gonna find these. weird cases and when you try to. adjudicate it gets really weird like do. you know about you know caster Semenya. you know she is no oh no I do know this. story this story pisses me off so much.

so she's a marathon a marathon right. she's a middle distance runner. I believe she's South the South African. she's like the best in the world at the. 200 meters you know I actually got to. see her because my I went to the. Prefontaine Classic in Eugene Oregon. with my dad to like watch the big track. meet you know best in the world people. this is like a Olympics you know not. qualifier but it's like the Olympics. calabria athletes saw her she's. incredible just like one of the best in. the world she's got a she her whole life.

has faced accusations that she that her. that she's a man basically because she. has like an elevated level of. testosterone this is her natural body. right and so she's had to deal with. people saying oh we got a we got to do. do a sex check on you which is. humiliating and like also completely. unscientific. you know like what what are they going. to do and like a second one look at her. genitals well here's the weird thing man. is that yeah they want to look at their. genitals first of all which is.

humiliating to have that happen if. you're an athlete any people have to be. in the room yeah. this is the problem right how do you. judicata that right and also there's. such a thing I don't know anything about. her personal situation right there's. such a thing as intersex people right. where when you look at the generals you. can't take it I can just look at their. Junction who can tell right this is a. real phenomena like 1% of people are. intersex right I was speaking off the. top my head but it's higher than you. think you know it's definitely it's a. nonzero number of people right intersex. people are a real thing it's a real. thing and so so but so she got past that.

right they stopped challenging whether. she was like a man or a woman they did a. glamazon test on her. I think you might be right yeah but so. she's had to deal with that that's not. fair right she's just a liar she's a. physical outlet as a physical outlier. and now the IAAF which is the. organization that runs all tits like. fifa for track right they run all track. they have tried to put forward a rule I. don't know what the status is right now. because it's being challenged but they. try to put forward a rule that says if.

you have a testosterone level over a. certain amount you have to take a. hormone changing clothes to change your. hormones and she's gonna fall under that. and so they literally want to change the. body that she was born with because. they're saying your body is unfair to. her how is that right that's crazy it's. really really [ __ ] up and and so the. thing is when we make those decisions. about what's fair and what's not fair. there's no baseline human is always a. value judgment and when we're excluding. some people that's almost all we always.

need to look at that and say are we. discriminating they're definitely. discriminating against Castro so mania. and is this the IOC that's what it's. doing this notice IAF which is the IOC. is the Olympics IAF the Olympics aren't. doing this so they don't have an issue. with her I don't know what the Olympic. policy is the Olympics is [ __ ] up we. do hope so in the Olympics the Olympics. is [ __ ] up in a lot of ways too it's. another dirty dirty dirty but incredibly. in terms of dollars off those athletes. who work for free we had this dude on a. shotput guy who gold medalist in the. shotput he was like the year I had a.

gold medal I was not able to pay my. bills. and he is literally trying to like. unionize the athletes which is very hard. right because there's new athletes every. four years but yeah those athletes are. not paid Plus no one's gonna listen to. the guy who throws the heavy rope yeah I. got a gold medal for the hockey do you. hook a cannonball. oh you throw a rock weird that you can't. make a living throwing rocks dude sorry. people watch those people watch those.

sports you know most [ __ ] up things. when they let the NBA play yeah let the. NBA play yeah poor Eastern Bloc nations. yeah got these [ __ ] you know super. athletes who a professional American and. they literally like all players for the. for the biggest ones they can you know. get spot Michael Phelps can get a. sponsorship right for the biggest for. the biggest ones but the the lower ones. can't get sponsorships and like the. shotput. people can't get sponsorships and. they're also not even allowed to promote. themselves using the Olympics they can't. be like hey pizza place you know I'll be.

I'll be an Olympic athlete me you know. anything beats a place because if they. use the word Olympics that IOC will sue. them um so yeah it's already but really. really really not fair but it's so. prestigious if you can win a gold medal. in the Olympics I mean you basically can. you have a Fitness career for a life. yeah but well you could figure it out. you could be a high school coach for the. rest of your life on the sport depending. on the sport right like a shot put shot. put I don't know what your prospects are.

right [ __ ] bro you throwing rocks people. track I like track and field which sucks. cuz is one of the dirtiest of all the. sports but it's why I don't want to. watch why is that a part of track and. field the rock-throwing part track or. field what are you doing are you a human. catapult are you at the top of a new the. dude that they put on the top of the. bridge for rock words I like this where. someone has to like ride a horse then. shoot a gun then go for a swim the old. times [ __ ] there's some stupid [ __ ].

sports in the Olympics sorry my Canadian. friends but yeah curling curling is the. top of the heap curling is getting. bigger and bigger preposterous they. don't have jiu-jitsu in the Olympics. they don't really know okay that's. [ __ ] up. yeah retired NFL guys currently trying. to make the curling team that just based. off of a bet that he'd like with his. drunk buddies like I bet I could do it. daddy could do it for sure they're. having a tough time actually [ __ ] that. they are but like a drunk they're not. even trying it's just that you're the. systems we use to organize these things.

are so important you know it's so much. more like here's a really good example. of this I thought this is fascinating. like India right a country of over a. billion people right huge number of. people has almost no Olympic athletes. right and I'm like though the first guy. wrestlers something of wrestlers I'm not. sure but the I remember this cuz a. couple Olympics ago the first individual. gold medalist ever from India won a gold. medal when he wanted an air pistol which. is like shooting my [ __ ] shooting oh.

yeah no okay he's independently wealthy. and had just practiced in practice and. practice what they don't have is India. is it's a great country it's not a very. organized country they don't have a lot. of infrastructure in terms of you know. we've got teams right whereas in the. u.s. we devote tons of money government. money private money to like you know the. swimming us swimming billions of dollars. people training sigh instead of that in. India they don't have that right right. so despite the fact that they have so.

many people they got a billion people it. must have every type they must have one. of the world's strongest people they. must have won the world's fastest people. because they got a billion people right. what they don't have is that training. infrastructure right so if you look at. it that way you're like okay hold on a. second we don't like. performance-enhancing drugs because. unearned unfair advantage well what else. is training infrastructure than an. unfair advantage if you're born in the. US you have a way better chance of. making it at the Olympics and becoming. that greatest athlete in the world and. someone in the in India how is that fair. how is that not an unfair advantage you. know that's true but to play devil's. advocate if you were state-sponsored.

athlete from Russia or China you have a. much better EE than you do if you're an. American and you're some shotput dude. who doesn't have a way to make a living. you bills while you're working for the. Olympics you totally do so my point is. there's no baseline human like there's. no there's no way to eliminate all. advantages and never you know just say. oh no it's just what you came is just. what you were born with right you know. doesn't exist there's no such thing so. women. who are running with that I'm sorry. what's her name again caster Semenya. caster Semenya those women who are. running with her they just [ __ ] happens.

bro you know if you're a heavyweight. boxed and you grew up in the era of Mike. Tyson yeah I'm sorry but this is just. what you're stuck with yeah this is. what's going on and some people are just. they just have advantages yeah they just. have advantages physically mentally and. there's outliers you found it sorry you. got an out lighter weight might want to. do something else yeah yeah what races. that lady's gonna run and don't run. those races yeah run a different. different race that's always been how do. you feel about trans athletes you know. it's a good it's a good question I think.

it's we're really gonna go through like. a cultural change on how we think about. that you know it's it's morphing so. quickly you know what I mean I'm very. much because I am of this opinion that. there is no such thing as like perfect. fairness and when we make those. distinctions we're always choosing who. to allow and because I think we should. choose to allow like trans people to. participate in society I'm for an. inclusive approach where you know we're. able to like find a find like a model.

that allows those folks to compete. fairly in a way that everybody's happy. with I think that's the I think that's. what we should do you know and that to. me is like that's what makes me like. sports more you know is those. comparisons like you know another thing. that pissed me off so much was like [ __ ]. what's his name the the disabled runner. who then killed his girlfriend's story. that's right and people were saying. about this guy that his that his a.

prosthetic gave him an advantage now. first of all there's no [ __ ] way. that's true because he doesn't have. muscles muscles actually thing into does. give you an advantage I mean I think I. think mechanically it does because. they're Springs they essentially the way. his leg works with those things is you. put you've seen him right they don't. even look remotely like feet things yeah. yeah it's a crazy like but dude the butt. hole is that that's not an advantage. because how mechanics work right is that.

a spring you put energy into it and you. get a little bit less energy out right. so because that's the laws of. thermodynamics. you can't get more out than you put in. except a muscle does give you more than. you put in because a muscle converts. food into energy for a brief period. right and so he does he has Sprint he. doesn't have Springs sorry he has. Springs he doesn't have a machine in his. leg the way the rest of us do. that creates force out of food well no. question is whether or not the lower. half of his legs which is what he's. missing. could make up for the the advantage the.

mechanical advantage of the shape of. those things which applies all sorts of. really unusual leverage when you're. right totally you're not yeah I mean I. don't I don't know if it's I mean I. don't know if you took him with full. legs and took him with those things if. they'd run the same amount of time but. the thing it we can't run fast as [ __ ]. with those things you've seen those guys. well he could right but where's all the. other double amputees who are like you. know coming of a marine track and.

field's how many of them are trying to I. mean Paralympics is huge there's like a. ton of Paralympic athletes you know like. I've been told that it has a mechanical. advantage by someone who actually should. know what they're talking about but I. want to like to look it up do those legs. pistorius's legs today I remember. reading stuff at the time from you know. you know exercise whatever athletic. scientists forget what it's called who. said that it who said that it didn't. right yeah but so that's a debate that. we could have right right but with the. point that I was trying to make was. looking at that Olympics god that's a.

better event with that guy in it you. know I'm so happy he was in it right. like what if if it does give you an. advantage well so so the point is when. we make the rules of a game right and. this is the point of our episode about. games which is about the Olympics. actually when we make the rules of a. game we are there's no such thing as a. perfectly fair competition that would be. designed by God to be perfect and be. perfectly fair right we're always making. choices about what kind of competition. we want to have and who we want to allow.

into it and what sort of outcome we want. to have you know what I mean right. just like in baseball too many home runs. move the mound up or down you know how. they change the rules a little bit. because they want more home runs same. thing with same thing with track and. field we change the rules a little bit. to allow this person or not allow this. person right I think that when we're. talking about people we should always. try to include more people not. we should you know like if and if hey if. you're a double amputee and you can get. your way into the Olympics you can make. a plausible case I think we should try. to entertain that notion and we should. try to find a way to get that guy in.

there right as far as trans athletes go. you know we could have we could sit here. and talk for three hours about like all. the different ways that hormones might. affect your body might not affect your. body and I'm not an expert on that and I. don't want to claim to be right but a. sports with trans athletes who are you. know competing with the you know with. their gender right that's that is a. sporting world that I'm more interested. in right and I think we should find a. way to make that happen I know it can be. really complicated complicated and messy. right and there's gonna be a lot debate.

about it and it's gonna make it's gonna. be uncomfortable you know there's gonna. a lot of arguments but you know I hope. that that's the world that we move. forward to that's my that's my point of. view my point of view is that there's a. reason there's a distinction there's a. reason why we make the distinction to. have male athletics versus female. athletic s-- the reason is that males. have a physiological physiological. advantage over women so in most sports. most physical sports we do not have. males compete with females the question.

becomes when someone who is male. transitions and becomes female do those. same physiological advantages apply and. what what are they what is the evidence. well the evidence and competition seems. to be that it shows that it does apply. particularly in weightlifting rugby. mountain biking power heavy sports that. are that favored larger people stronger. bodies males that transition to females. have a significant advantage in their.

breaking World Records so if you're a. woman and you're a natural woman and you. don't take any extra hormones or male. hormones you're not taking steroids or. any sort of performance-enhancing drugs. you're doing your very best to compete. and you're at the top of the heap but. then someone comes along that was a man. for 30 years and decides they're going. to be a woman and this has happened and. literally transitioned a few months ago. and competes as a woman and destroys. records and dominates you in that sport. that's [ __ ] and that's not competing.

on a level playing field that's a person. who's. biologically a male and who was a male. for 30 plus years of having testosterone. run through their body and affect their. tendon strength and affect the shape of. their bones and the mechanical. advantages of the male hips versus the. female hips and then they're competing. with smaller people who have been a. woman their whole life it's not fair. it's it's as much cheating as taking. steroids when the other person doesn't. or taking performance-enhancing drugs.

when the other person doesn't maybe even. more so maybe even more so because you. also have there's a bunch of advantages. in terms of reaction time that males. enjoy it's like it's some significant. difference in reaction time between. males and even untrained males versus. female professional athletes well I. disagree and I what do you disagree but. I've already well the my main point. being the one that I already made right. that like I don't think that there is. such a thing as a perfectly level. playing field I think we decide what.

kind of playing field we want to have. sure we do make the distinction where we. don't allow men to compete in women's. division and I think that that. distinction may be breaking down a bit. right and I think it may be time to. break down that distinction so you think. that males should be able to compete in. the women's division of weightlifting no. I don't necessarily but I can if they. transition well first of all the there's. there's a lot of stuff to break down. right now I'm not an expert on the. subject right so it's just sort of my.

off the top of my head one thing is you. know you're postulating a particular. person who decided to transition at the. age of 30 right and they were very big. and strong before right and they decide. to transition now that is a type of. person that exists right I think over. the next certainly thirty years we're. gonna see you know now that people are. starting to understand that being trans. is just a way that people are right. they're just people who are trans you. know and this is something that we're. gonna accept and support right you're.

seeing folks transition much much. earlier age you know they're so but then. and and so if someone is if someone is. you know transitioning from the age of. like you know seven years old right and. you know working with those hormones you. know from that age right they're not. going to have you know that their body. situation will be very different than. the one that you that you postulated. right I also know from my trans friends. that the effects that the hormones have. on your body are like really profound. you know like really really profound.

like we're not like to a surprising. degree right and so you know I have look. if the question is how does you know how. does a person who starts taking hormones. at a particular age right how does their. body change and how does that affect. these avi athletic performance I don't. know we're in such new territory here we. certainly are and we particularly we. just scratched upon the idea of kids. transitioning in a very early age I mean. there's been more scientific evidence.

that points that if kids don't do that. than when they wanted to be trans at an. early age they just become gay men and. that there's nothing wrong with that. either. there's no reason to give kids hormones. and there's no reason to decide before a. person's frontal lobe is completely. completely fully developed which doesn't. even take place to look 25 kid people. don't know who they are. yes a seven-year-old you you won't even. keep people don't even give their. seven-year-old phones you don't let them. vote you're gonna let them decide what. sex they're going to be view their life.

the the research that I've seen and. again I'm not an expert on this and you. know I'd love to this is a conversation. this is I'd love to talk about on our. show and I'd specifically love you know. this is before this is the kind of topic. where I really want to make sure that I. know the research and that I'm you know. also speaking to trans folks you know in. in this conversation but so to touch on. just what I've you know my own. experience and what I've the research. I've seen the research I've seen is that. trans kids from a young age they are. incredibly consistent in their what you.

know when they're expressing the gender. identity in that and a lot of human. beings yeah yeah but that's that's fits. this narrative by saying they're. incredibly consistent but if you polled. these people like what are you talking. about like of you I mean that's I look I. don't have the research in front of me. that I saw so I can't like go into the. details on it but like yeah was I mean. was you know it was research that was. surveying and track. like trans kids who declared the right. and D from a young age did it change the.

answer was generally no it really didn't. and you know I have a friend who has a. who has a trans kid another kid's exact. age but you know we're in the age range. that we're talking about and you know. he's explained that like well you know. my child from a very young age. consistently like said I am a girl like. and has never contradicted themselves. never changed their mind and so the. humane thing and the thing that he felt. was going to do as a parent was to like. embrace that choice on his child's part. right and yeah that's the embrace of.

choice meaning hormonal II I shouldn't. even phrase it as a choice like like. embrace that identity but it is a choice. right I mean if I'm choosing to add. hormones to a child's body that's a. choice it's a choice it's it's the it's. a choice on the point on the part of the. parent it's not a choice in the on the. on the part of the child to like in the. same way that being is they were that. being gay isn't a choice yeah okay but. if that's who they are if they think.

that they're a girl why do you have to. give them hormones to make them more of. a girl because I'm sorry can you expand. on the question it's a simple question. if you say that the child thinks it's a. girl so you're going to give the child. hormones mm-hmm if the child thinks it's. a girl. let it be a girl like you don't have why. you adding hormones if you're shooting. hormones into a child and you're. affecting the child's development you're. saying that's not a choice that's.

nonsense of course it's a choice you're. choosing to chemically change this. child's body you're choosing to. injections into this child's body on a. regular basis that are going to. radically affect the physical. development of their body yeah and. you're saying that this isn't a choice. what's definitely a choice to do that so. so what trans people Express and again. I'm not an expert this is from me. talking to my trans friends and and you. know seeing what other trans folks say. is that the you know experience of being.

trans and not receiving hormones right. and not having the body that you. identify with the feeling of dysphoria. right is. extremely like painful and is a. condition unto itself right and the the. the feeling of not belonging with the. body that you have of that mismatch. right that seems to be in the broad. variety of humanity the way that some. people are born right where their inner. self right the self that they are. they're like ima you know they're not.

thinking they are a woman they're like. this is the person that I am doesn't. match the body that they have right and. that gives them extreme distress right. and that leads to you know suicide that. leads to you know other damaging. behaviors right and the best treatment. for that that we know exists is to you. know have do gender confirmation via. hormones and know that that doesn't. affect the suicide rate the suicide rate.

for trans people is very high post-op. and pre-op really doesn't get affected. by whether or not you treat them well. the operation you know one of the. questions can be why is that is that. because they're not accepted by society. and we're not more loving could it be. underlying issues that are causing them. to feel this way in the first place like. what is it we don't know and I'm sure it. varies widely look so all I can do is. defer to the experts that that I know. about this right so you know for.

instance there's a author named Bryn. Tannehill who's a former former military. helicopter pilot I just interviewed her. for my new podcast that's coming out. soon called actually I'm doing it on. Earwolf and it's like a long-form. interview podcast and so she's one of. the people who's affected by the Trump. military ban on trans service people you. know so that's why she's trans because. she's trans yeah. and she wrote a fantastic book called. everything you need to know about trans.

that like she's a she is now a. researcher right and she went into. really deep detail about like here is. all of the medical science here is all. of here's all the science about it and. so at this point in the conversation I. would say like hey man I just got a bone. up on you know on that particular side. rates my entire concern is with children. my concern is not with young adults. deciding to take steps to. confirmed their gender identity who they. feel they really are I'm all for you. doing whatever you want to do when. you're an adult when your mind is formed.

but people change their mind they change. their opinion they change their thoughts. there's nothing wrong with just deciding. to be a gay man there's nothing wrong. with your body you know as you grow and. mature and develop you growing out of. these ideas some will in some world and. the ones who won't they always have the. option to do something later on in life. but if you do something to hormonal e. block a child very early on there's no. turning back from that well let me say. let me say a few things to that first of. all it's not wrong to be concerned about. children and there's a reason this is.

the most intense part of this. conversation. and I think it's correct right because. we're all very concerned about children. right but I do want to say first of all. I don't think it's correct that trans. people if they don't receive hormones. from an from a young age they simply. become gay men because I know it happens. very often. I know trans if you can find that. because it was a big article that was. written about that recently where they. were talking about whether or not gender. confirmation surgery and hormone. blockers on young children is ethical. because of this fact and this was what.

they were talking about where people at. one point time wanted to be trans and. they listed several famous examples and. then as they became older just decided. to be gay including women who wanted to. be men who just became gay women and I. think what's that girl's name that was. in John wick Ruby Rose she was one of. those she was trans when she was younger. and now she's just a gay woman so look I. I know I know quite a few trans folks. right and I have to be honest none of. the ones that I know were I don't know.

any trans women personally who are gay. men up until they transitioned right I. know quite a few trans women who were. straight men right or who you know lived. their lives as to present it as straight. men right and then transitioned right as. an overcome lesbians yeah I mean that's. that that's one of the ways that people. can be I really recommend that oh the. other thing I was gonna say is that I do. know also among the trans folks that I. know where the trans people who speak. about this that I've heard so many of.

them say I wish I had access. I knew this about myself at a very young. age and I wish to. that I had that we had I had had the. ability to receive you know these. hormones at a young age my life would be. so much better and I'm not gonna argue. with those folks you know I wouldn't. argue with these folks either but you. have to address the fact that there are. people that have gone through transition. surgery and said I wish to God that I. never did this there's a lot of those. people too so if you're looking for. anecdotal evidence and you want to be. objective you kind of have to I'm sure. I'm sure we can find the anecdotes I'm. very curious and this is what I go.

consult my friend or my recent interview. set to print Anna Hills work on this to. see how many see how many are in each. group right now which which which sets. of these folks are the outliers I think. the folks that you're talking about are. probably the outliers but I can't you. know confirm that all surgeries have. potential costs however according to a. Swedish study of 324 patients 341. percent of whom were born female surgery. was associated with considerably higher. risk for mortality suicidal behavior and. psychiatric morbidity than the general.

population so that's people who got the. surgery I am curious with three point. four one percent of them I mean the. devil of this is in the details right. because how much is the is the higher. risk what does it mean 3.14 senator who. were born female well some of them were. born female and the other ones were born. male the nails that transition to. females is what it's saying it's only. saying a small percentage of them were. born female the transition to male but. the larger percentage was males who. transition to female and that the.

surgery that they received was. associated with considerably higher. risks for mortality suicidal behavior. and psychiatric morbidity than the. general population sure that's not. healing them that's saying that having. that surgery is associated with higher. risks or mortality. suicidal behavior and psychiatric. morbidity but it also says above. following surgery patients report lower. gender dysphoria and improved sexual. relationships right so everything's. awesome well this isn't saying that. people are killing themselves you know.

talking fruit you're looking for. something that confirms obviously let me. establish opinion and as are you you. know we should be we should always be. careful of drawing too much from you. know a single study and look at it. widely right but. what was the point I was about to make. it fled my head uh I I'm sort of at the. oh here's what it was surgery another. thing I know from from speaking with.

trans folks is that surgery is. overemphasized right and then and that. surgery for those folks is not the you. know we as sort of straights as people. tend to put too much emphasis on like oh. did you get the surgery yet or not you. know and really it's more about what are. you living as and what is you know what. sort of set of hormones do you have. right but I would really one of the I've. sort of reached the limit of like my. facility with this topic I really want. to shout out videos made by a friend of. mine her videos are called contra points. her name's Natalie win and she does.

these ink which is a former philosopher. former philosophy PhD and she does these. incredibly funny videos about is not. just about trans issues about all types. of things I should really great one. about comedy recently but she really. breaks down like a lot of these a lot of. misconceptions right and has really. changed every time I watch one of her. videos I'm like learning new things and. like new ideas or like pop pop pop in my. head you know and I think you should. check him out and and you might enjoy. talking to her on the on the show she's. a really fascinating person three points.

it's an incredibly complex subject it. really had a really angel on the podcast. before who transitioned from female to. male which is also a different and. interesting thing yeah um you know and. he said that his whole life just felt. like he was a boy and he didn't. understand why he didn't have a penis he. didn't understand like yeah the whole. that didn't make sense and then once he. transitioned to being a male then he. felt complete you know yeah I don't deny. that my entire concern is that you're. making decisions for children.

yeah and that this is a completely new. thing with no historical precedent we've. never done this before there's not like. a history of hundreds of years of. hormone blocker blockers being used on. young children and whether or not that. is healthy and promotes a positive life. I feel like if a child thinks they're a. girl let them live as a girl but you. don't have to hormonal II engage with. their body with chemicals. it just seems crazy it seems ill-advised. it does it seems like this.

movement of acceptance and progressive. thinking in in in many ways is a. fantastic thing it's a fantastic. movement but this seems to me to be a. leap and that you're making this leap to. confirm your ideology and to confirm. that you know you're a hundred percent. cool with trans people and you're a. hundred percent cool and you you're. gonna recognize this child as trans but. you're doing something you're doing. something to this child's body that you. can't turn around and if this child. decides at whatever age we decide that.

you can make rational decisions to. transition as trans let them fully. develop first let them be a person let. them make these decisions but if you. want to identify as a woman you and you. want to keep your penis that should be. fine - there's nothing wrong with that. if you want to keep a functional penis. you want to identify as a woman and not. even take hormones who cares. do that do that but when you're stepping. in to a developing baby that's only been. alive for six years and you're shooting.

chemicals into its body to change the. way it develops. show me the research show me the decades. of peer-reviewed Studies on one of the. most important things that we know of. the development of a human being where. you're going to home or hormonal II. interact with their body in some sort of. a random dr. Frankenstein sort of way. like how much evidence do we know what. evidence do we have that this is a. powerful absolute like intelligent smart.

way to handle a child's life over the. long term like when these kids grow to. be 60 as opposed to kids who don't get. the the hormone shots when they're 6. these people are 15% more happy there's. nothing like that but yet people are. jumping into it because it seems like. the thing to do because it seems like. the tide of society is moving in that. direction well I I don't jump into it. for that reason I do think that when. we're talking about an issue that. affects those people right the first. thing we should do is listen to those.

people right some of the children listen. to the children and listen to the adults. right who said I used to be that child. okay you know but they are not that. child and you know - you said look. everyone's different so for them to say. I was that child that's nonsense. you were a similar. child in a similar situation you were. not there not literally saying there but. they don't know how that child is. feeling they don't know how much that. child's being influenced by its. environment they don't know how much. their thoughts and their expressions are. being encouraged by their parents they. don't know that child sure so my point.

is when we're taught when you and I are. talking about this right now we're. speaking pretty hypothetically right. we're talking about a child that is not. in the room that we don't have we're. talking about a fictional trial right so. what we really care about are the actual. people right and when we talk to the. actual trans folks right and talk to you. know say hey what do you think you know. how do you feel and you know include. them in the conversation I think we have. a different conversation about it you.

know we do have a hands-on conversation. but we also have a different. conversation we talk to people that have. regret from transition surgery because. there's a lot of those sure but we're. not we don't have either of those folks. in their limb right you know we have to. acknowledge it they're real as well yeah. I don't I'm not I'm not dismissing that. those people are real right but when we. say if you talk to trans folks you get. this impression that's not necessarily. true. yeah what a wide range of impression no. I wasn't just I wasn't talking about. specifically the impression that it I.

wasn't saying we should reason from. anecdotal evidence right I'm saying that. look the last conversation I had with a. person about this was a was a trans. military veteran who is a researcher who. wrote a book on on these issues right. comprehensively looked at the research. and told me that the research shows that. the evidence that you're asking for. exists maybe not on a 30-year timeline. but there have been studies of this and. here's what we know about them right.

about children yeah I mean that's that. is my understanding of the reaiiy have. not looked at the research myself you. know I don't have my shows the positive. benefits of children transitioning I. don't think that exists well we can't. solve that in this conversation right. here but so that my point is look I'm. not gonna go out on a limb and tell you. more than I can I can say off top my. head right because I'm not an expert on. the subject. this is something that you know if I if. this were something we've done on our. show and I had dive into the research. more I could tell you more I know it. exists but I can tell you what I have.

been told exists by people who have made. it their business to know you know so so. you know that would be my next step in. the conversation but you know that's. what I'm saying is those are you know. including those folks in this. conversation is a really critical part. of it for me from so yeah well it's a. conversation the world needs to have for. sure yeah and I think it's one that we. will have and you know again just to.

bring it back to at let excite I think. that the undeniable existence of trans. you know children to teenagers to adults. right who want to compete right and who. make a compelling case to that that they. should be able to compete right is going. to be something that we're gonna have to. grapple with you know I don't there's. gonna be easy answers to it and we're. wrestling with you know right now yeah I. mean I think the real the legitimate. solution is a trans leak or a trans. division and to have a male division of.

female division and trans division if. you want to compete athletically that's. fair to me. that makes sense well I hope that. there's you know like say with the you. got the Paralympics right and the. Paralympics is really like it's divided. you do you know how they do it where. they do like they've got all the. different levels for you've got this. much amputated or you're this mobile and. you can compete in this way you know and. so that's really great to make a way. that you know those folks can compete on. a is level as a playing field as we can. be get you know given the the manifold. variations in human bodies right but the.

fact that Oscar Pistorius which by the. way we should bring up again he killed. his girlfriend which is a very weird. part of the story I thought she was a. robber bizarre a completely bizarre but. the fact that he was able to compete in. the Olympics right not just in the. Paralympics I think such a wonderful. thing you know and so I would hope that. whatever organization we come up with. you know allows for the allows for. humans in all their variations to. compete in the main league as well right. because fair as possible they come up.

with Bionic legs like Steve Austin from. the Six Million Dollar Man. there's some people out there they'll. cut their [ __ ] legs off to run faster. and that's real there are people that. want to win so bad they would cut the. bottom of their legs off to get Bionic. prosthesis they would really for sure. 100% would would you know I wouldn't but. I'm not crazy look there's people that I. mean these hands just cuz they they're a. little bit do you know that people have. that feeling that they're supposed to be. disabled yes yes yes there's people with.

all sorts of psychological disorders but. you want the need to win is so insanely. strong in some people and if they found. out that hey man well who gives a [ __ ]. about your feet in your calves man. they're gonna look just like feet and. calves except they allow you to run 45. miles an hour I think people do it isn't. that a little similar to the argument. when people say oh trans bathrooms it's. just so men are just gonna lie about us. they can go in the bathroom and peep at. women and then you actually expand that. right you're like hold on a second. you're telling me a dude is going to. tell the entire world I am I'm not a man.

I'm a woman they're gonna start dressing. differently they're gonna take hormones. they're gonna like live with the stigma. right they're gonna one of most. stigmatized type of people you can be in. America they as a trans person they're. gonna live with that stigma they're. gonna change our whole lives and they're. gonna do all of that just so they can. peep at women in the bathroom. well that highly unlikely it doesn't. make any sense but also that's not. entirely what could happen the what also. could happen is you could get some creep. who dresses up like a woman and goes to. the male to the women's bathroom you can. get that I mean I'm all for trans now.

listen but I'm you can't happen now I'm. all for but if you have a bathroom that. allows trans people and you get some. creep who says I'm just gonna pretend to. be trans if you don't think that's real. then you're crazy. of course people do that of course. there's in people there's not as there. is there's people have been arrested men. who were sex offenders who dressed up as. women and went into the women's room and. harassed women there's already been. arrests this is but it's not because. here's the thing they're not trans. people people that are taking advantage.

of a loophole and they're creeps and. they they probably wanted to go into the. female bathroom anyway but they just. couldn't do it before and now that. there's trans exclus inclusive bathrooms. some creeps have been arrested doing. that they're not trans people the real. problem is the creeps the real problem. is not the trans people using the. women's. they should of course be able to use it. but the creeps can go like you don't. need a law for like it so if they're not. trans people right they are not supposed. to be in the bathroom right right there.

were in the same way trans people and. thus you have people were worried about. but so you have arrested people doing. but so they could also do that even if. it was not a gender inclusive picture. right because they would be breaking the. rules of the bathroom in exactly the. same way but everybody waking up after a. man in a dress versus them being trans. see if you see a trans person often. times tramps people look very masculine. there's no if you're just gonna pretend. to be trans there's no need to hide we. have to ask we have to ask ourselves is. if the hypothetical or if the extremely.

extremely rare situation that you're. discussing right is so horrifying to us. and such a such a big problem that it's. worth disenfranchising millions of. people from the ability to simply go to. the bathroom when they need to you know. if if that extreme edge case or. hypothetical case right are we really. going to are we really going to you know.

hurt all all of these actual people who. actually existence hey I just need to. goddamn go to the bathroom you know in a. in a place that is you know safe for me. right and I don't think I don't think it. is you know like we can talk about that. one edge case all day long you know. there's been more than one case but I. think here's the question what where. what are there more of are there more. trans people or there more sexual.

predators a hundred percent more trans. people than sexual predators who are. specifically going to put on a dress and. in order to go into a bathroom. specifically yeah there's more transfer. of a million how many people are trans. what's the numbers on that you know I. don't know but I would I would consult. my consult my friend Bryn's book to find. out because I'm sure it's in I guess she. she wrote a book that breaks all these. statistics called this is such. everything you need to know about train. minefield of a subject you know soon as.

you start bringing this [ __ ] up people. because it's it's complicated and people. they dig their heels in the ground on. both sides you know and you know I I. tried to have you know happy were able. to have a conversation about I try to. have a conversation that's based on you. know what I try not to say more than I. then I think I can say that with you. know with surety and you know but my. basic principle is man I just want to. defer to the humanity of the people that.

I'm talking about you know what I mean. and rather than say well here's my idea. here's my concern what about though what. if you know what what if a space alien. were to come down to the X Y Z you know. what I mean rather than try to come up. with thought experiments about it you. know I'm just like hey there's some. people in America they're making a. polite request can we use the bathroom. please go ahead you know that's that's. my that's what I default to rather just. killed perverts and if I kill the. perverts you know how many I think. there's a way with sports again right I. genuinely think hey my default is I.

understand its problem I understand. you're gonna have female athletes who. are who say hey wait a second is this. fair right I think we can go forward. with good faith and find a way let's. find a model that works for everybody. you know I think we can do it Lynne in a. way that respects the humanity of the. trans a athletes and assists a fleet I. think that we can do that. and that's that that will always be my I. think it's easy to say as an outsider if. you're a female athlete that's been. forced to compete with trans women who. used to be men for most their lives I. think you'd have a different opinion. because I think they have a distinct.

physiological advantage that's been. expressed many times I mean there's a. lot of records have been broken by trans. women who are now weight lifters and. there's that one who's the [ __ ] dirt. biker who's was a professional dirt bike. professional rider before as a man and. then transitioned over to a woman is. just dominating these things it's just I. don't necessarily think it's fair I. think just like it's not fair for a man. to compete as a woman I don't think that. all those disadvantages or those.

advantages rather go away when you. transition especially in a short time. period I just don't think they do and I. don't think there's any evidence it. shows they do there's a diminishing. amount but how much so and in fact the. a doctor a board-certified. endocrinologist dr. Ramona Critic I. think as her name would did a whole. article on this about fighters about. male fighters transitioning to becoming. female and competing as female which has. happened and they're saying that not. only does the estrogen therapy it.

actually preserves bone density. it doesn't just turn them into a woman. or turn them into female or the saw. their hormonal profiles similar to the. females but it also preserves their. masculine bone density because one of. the reasons why women lose bone density. as they get older. is a lack of estrogens part of the. reason why osteoporosis kicks in that. they that stops it in its tracks when. you're you're injecting female hormones. into a males frame so they maintain this. male bone density now there's also. arguments that african-american female. bone density is in many cases similar to.

white European male bone density so. that's the argument about the outliers. and about whether or not it's a level. playing field because it most certainly. is not yeah I mean so that that's where. I get back to the idea that look could. someone show that a athlete who a transy. athlete who wants to compete is going to. have a physiological advantage because. of their history of transition right. could that be the case sometimes.

probably so you know I'm not gonna I'm. not gonna argue that well that's how. about this because I actually don't want. to know one way or the other because I. have not looked at any research on this. so I don't wanna make any claim so let's. just let's just grant that for the sake. of this thought experiment okay so that. being said let's compare that against. every single other advantage that every. other competitor could have. socioeconomic advantage right country of. origin you know whether or not they live. in Denver if they live below sea level. you know like all those different things.

right do is it humane to draw a line. around that one unearned advantage right. against all those other honored. advantages you know at what point does. our fantasy of having a level of having. a true level playing field end up. hurting people you know end up end up. excluding people and that's the. conversation that I think we could have. you know I heard a really great. this is just the beginning of a thought. right but it came up just somewhere I.

was talking to some people about this. and in sports one of the things our. assumption that men have an advantage. over women right in sports in sports yes. our assumption yeah well yeah let me let. me expand on our assumption that men. have an advantage over women in sports. is partially based on the fact that so. many of the sports were designed for. male bodies right they're optimized for. male bodies right basketball for example.

right optimized for male bodies it's. like the the the height of the basket. you know the the way that the ball moves. around you know like like almost if. we're gonna say that if we're gonna say. that men and women have physiological. differences right and then we're. creating sports and this and the sports. are sort of tuned to the physiological. differences of course here we're talking. about power speed athleticism all those.

there's an advantage okay so when you. look at some joy when you look at say. gymnastics right yes I would say that. like women for the events that are in a. women's gymnastic competition right have. an advantage over men right. women feel lighter women don't compete. on the ring hold thing you know what I. mean right. men don't compete at some of that crazy. you know bar [ __ ] you know what I mean. like larger there it's its height its. flexibility it's like there's a lot.

going on right so that's a rare case. where women's gymnastics we've actually. created events in that and like. competitions that like only women can do. right and so we sort of optimized that. sport more for a female body right what. if we did that with a lot more sports. right and how about this what if we were. able to develop because again the rules. of the game right are not absolute the. rules of our game are things that humans. create right and so why do we use like. maybe part of our assumption that men. are better at sports than women or men.

have an advantage of sports than women. are that we have constructed most of the. games that we've constructed are. actually sort of biased towards a male. type of body. right that sounds ridiculous first of. all the reason why gymnastics is like. why women are good at gymnastics first. of all their their flexibility their. lightness all those things also they're. not competing against men in a. one-on-one type of situation like one's. trying to defend the other one's trying. to attack like a game of basketball or a. game of football or any other sort of. teams or have them compete against the.

it's a physical event as opposed to a. sport so physical event is you have to. do this thing it's very athletic it's an. athletic endeavor should do it as your. points you'll and no one's trying to. stop you from doing it then when you're. shooting basketballs you're not just. shooting basketballs you're trying to. shoot a basketball what people are. trying to defend you're trying to Juke. left and then go right you're trying to. be sneaky you're trying to shoot from.

the outside there's all this [ __ ] going. on and a lot of it involves your ability. to move fast to close distance to have. the physical strength to leap up in the. air and there's a huge physical. advantage that men enjoy this is not. because the sports designed this way. it's because the sport is very simple. there's a basket on one side a basket on. the other side you got to get it in here. he's they got to get it in there ready. go if you're faster and you're stronger. you'll be able to accomplish that better. males are faster and stronger there's a.

reason why there's a male and a female. division it's not that these sports were. designed for males is that men are. physically bigger and stronger and. faster these are physiological. advantages yeah you can have a thing. like a gymnastics balance beam event. where women are gonna shine because. they're lighter and more flexible and. they can do things with their body that. men can't because of the shape of their. all the mass all the different things. but that's rare that's the outlier I. yeah I don't I don't think we actually. disagree that much. the reason it's rare is because.

historically we've created most of our. sports around things that men have the. advantage and you're not wrong that. sports are most sports involves speed. and power most sports but why men have. an advantage in speed and power I know. but we created those sports right what. would we possibly be able to create. where women. have an advantage that is an athletic. event where a man's speed and power does. not give him an advantage. I mean look man this this is not again.

like I said this is the beginning of a. thought right I'm trying I'm trying to. use this as a thought experiment as sort. of like a possibility opening device. right but so you you postulate hey now. you you make a fair point that there's a. difference between individual athletic. events like gymnastics and competitive. one-on-one or events like you know. grappling or or basketball or something. like that right and so I'm thinking this. through myself as I'm talking about it. right. but mm-hmm like I don't think it's. impossible that you could come up with a.

one-on-one competition that privileges. that that is that is designed around the. same athletic qualities that make a. women make a woman give her an advantage. in a certain gymnastics event I don't. think there's any reason you couldn't do. the same thing for a find a one-on-one. competition that did the same thing. right. there's also what could it be I mean. well here's an example for instance I. believe I'm not sure I'm not a hundred. percent sure but I believe in like. shooting events right for example that.

women and men are on a level playing. field correct or or that like you know. sort of air rifle sort of thing that. like there are events right there there. do exist athletic events where you can. have men and women in direct competition. with each other right where that where. that event is not designed around a. particular facet of a you know male or. female body right so my point is look. men have you do you agree that men have.

run the country in the world for like. most of civilization like almost every. country ok great so men have been the. ones setting up the sports so the fact. that as you say it's rare that we have. sports that are sort of more designed. around a female you know the differences. between between women as opposed to men. right I think that might be because men. have been setting up all the sports. right and so my so my there's only. sports that women gravitate towards how. do you mean there's sports that women. gravitate towards the daily enjoy this.

minke like women's volleyball right. women have traditionally gravitated. towards gymnastics as you said earlier. example but those way more women. involved in gymnastics than men. oh absolutely um but there those are the. sports that get the less attention right. and we have less huge amounts it sure. does it's one of the rare examples of. like ones where you know that is there a. real female forward you know female. first sport right know what one bothers. me the most is the volleyball why is. that because the girls have to dress. like hoes basketball players had a dress.

like that yeah that's [ __ ] up man well. I think they can choose what their where. I think what the Muslim Egyptian team. they dress in traditional what's the. name of the volleyball player who has. the black tape on very famous you know. they're the two the two women the two. women from the US they're very famous. volleyball players whose names I can't. remember they probably aren't. complaining about what they're wearing. they probably choosing what they're. wearing I don't know but I mean when I.

tuned into Olympic volleyball my Tim Lee. these girls in their underwear. pretending they're at the beach they're. not even at the beach it's a choice okay. but is that a choice for the men. basketball players can they wear thongs. they can wear short shorts if they. imagine decided where they they could. wear like a cut off with a midriff. showing and any little booty shorts they. might be allowed to if they wanted to. ask you later they might get [ __ ] in the. locker maybe they'd make a pole I like.

the short shorts that they used to wear. a couple decades ago so okay look yeah. Larry Bird style you know one of the. things I love about baseball when I try. watching baseball is you get to choose. your own baseball pants you ever noticed. that like they get to choose when you. look at them some of them wear really. tight baseball pants and then someone. wear really baggy baseball pants and I. just love imagining I like clothes I. imagine them going to like a baseball. tailor and being like dude I want to. like sag my pants I want to you know. I'll show a little swag but you don't. want to impede your performance so I. think the tight would be better as.

you're running if swimmers shave their. bodies to be more aerodynamic I mean how. much really if you're just running to. first base how much does like baggy. pants the wind catching the baggy pants. could that for real well you look at. like Manny Ramirez had like the baggiest. pants I remember and like you. to imagine that guy was like a little. bit suboptimal with his baseball pants. you know be maybe just stuff yeah maybe. had big ass thighs and they only feel. good with baggy pants let me just put a. bow on on what I was trying to get. earlier right because I know I was I was. sort of like getting to a pretty Spacey.

place my point is just what our show is. about so much is about showing how the. things that we take for granted in our. world like the way the world is so much. of that time is just something that we. built right right and we can question it. and so when we say men are men have. advantages in women over sports I'm like. well hold on a second let's look at how. we set the sports up and is it possible. that we could set up set it up in a. different way right that would allow. more people to compete in sports right. might not be the same sports I'm not. gonna say that women should play in the.

NFL against men right I don't think I'll. be safe I think anyone should play in. the NFL frankly I think it's way too. dangerous it's very bad for people but. is it like is our assumption just based. on hey these are the sports that we. invented we happen to invent sports that. where men have the advantage can we. imagine a world where 90% of sports are. ones where women have an advantage of. would we be having a different. conversation and if that's the case. could we come up with some sports that. like everybody could you know that where. there's no non-physical sports I think.

but I think yeah you could come out with. competitions where women and female. traditional female characteristics would. have an advantage for sure you could I. mean it could definitely be done you. know it's just the ones that exist now. ones that involve running and lifting. things and moving fast physically. physiologically males have an advantage. yeah that's why we have these. distinctions and that's why we have. men's divisions and women's divisions. over hundreds and hundreds of years ago. you know what it's just not fair so fair. you know but you know I mean is it the.

like that's the that's the notion of. fairness we have now you know I think. the interesting thing about the question. trans athletes is it's gonna challenge. that notion it's going to lead to. conversations like this one you know I. think that's really cool and that's what. I think we're sort of we should be down. to have as a society talking about. things especially when there's a. disagreement is the only way to solve. them yeah but you know I think these. conversations oftentimes become the. shouting matches and I you know. everybody digs their heels in as you. were talking about before about happy. identities get really locked into ideas.

that they've held strong to whether it's. I did an identities about religion or. identities about politics right I mean. that's why when you were talking about. alphas and betas people like wise a show. getting political this is how dorky. people get yeah there's nothing. political about that yeah but you think. it's political because it represents. these rigid ideology exactly it was it. would be stumbled across something that. was like a really deep those men's. rights activist types then they connect.

that to their to their national politics. into their sex gender politics and. everything and and it was just like just. the idea of questioning that really set. them off right but what I'm about is. questioning all these things you know. this conversation that we had this. disagreement to the extent that we were. disagreeing I think is a really good one. to have you know and I'm always testing. what I think I know and trying to sort. of undermine it and say like do I know. this for sure I mean dude on our show we. have done more than one segment we've. another one coming out later this year.

where we like go back and we correct our. own mistakes we correct the things that. we've done wrong on our show what was a. big one let's see a really big one that. we have coming out I'll give you a. preview we did one about there was we. did a topic about sugar and fat about. how you know Americans were like. obsessed with cutting fat the low-fat. craze right. and a lot of that was a there was an.

early research there was early research. by this one researcher who showed that. sugar caused a lot of heart disease you. know and obesity and stuff like that and. the basically the sugar lobby shut him. down you know and you know were sort of. funding research that really showed that. that was the problem and that research. sort of took over and that really led to. the sort of anti fat craze right right. we did a story on that topic we later.

found out that like sort of the way that. we had characterized the story of that. happening was not accurate you know was. or does that make sense like the the. narrative part of it like it's true this. guy's research existed. it's true that the sugar Lobby hated us. you know but the research that showed. that fat is bad you know that fat causes. heart disease as well it wasn't like. totally shitty research and like this. sort of narrative isn't the only reason. that that other research taught a favor. does that make sense and so we talked.

about that as a way that like the story. of there was this good guy researcher. who is sort of like stifled by the bad. guy researcher in a lobby sort of. mislead us down that list it's more than. that exactly and that's what happens. when you're doing a show that has you. know six-minute segments right yeah. that's what I was getting on it's like. when we were talking about earlier like. the time constraints on some subjects. like think about how much time we spent. just talking about trans people and. trans athletes yeah our Ally's two sis. males yeah you know talk about something. you have no personal experience in and.

that's one of the reasons we've want to. do that topic on the show but we're like. man we really want to do justice to it. and it's really hard to do in six. minutes. so I'm gonna go longer in my in my. career I'm looking to find ways to go. longer well why can't you do it online. like like say if that n-c-double-a. doesn't contract it takes some issues. that you would like to talk about and. like that the the network wouldn't let. you talk about like n-c-double-a. couldn't you do like your own version of. it yeah total I mean I'd have to find a. way to fund it you know definitely not.

Adam ruins everything yeah I totally. believe that show I mean so far I've. talked about a year right and I do want. to say by the way we talk about the the. thing that we have a very cool Network. they that was the one time they ever. killed the topic and what they did allow. us to do was in an episode we have. coming out later this year we talked. about on the show the fact that they. killed that topic and we we talked about. how add you know we're on advertising. supported TV and occasionally we tear. into advertisers you know and. occasionally we have to have a.

conversation in the network where the. network says actually Gatorade kind of. sponsors the network and you're talking. about Gatorade and then we have to have. a conversation we still to get it did. our Gatorade topic but we had to have a. talker too you know a sugary sports. drinks we talked it okay all of the. sports drinks over emphasized hydration. as a problem you know and so we you know. we did a whole segment examining how. much does advertising affect the show. right. and and as a result of the NCAA we had. to kill that segment and the network let.

us say that on TV so that was really. that was really cool that they allowed. us to like bring up that conflict on the. show but ya know there's nothing. stopping me from going on the internet. it's just it just so happens that you. know I'm a comic and you know I had the. wonderful opportunity I've always wanted. to have my own TV show and I the. wonderful opportunity to create one if I. hadn't had that chance for five years. ago I would have I would probably be on. YouTube right now doing like you know. hour-long explainer videos with me doing. jokes straight to camera and I love. folks who do that like like and you know.

maybe I'll maybe I'll find myself doing. that again someday but right now I'm. just like too busy making it's hard. enough doing sixteen episodes of TV a. year to like also figure out how to. write and research a thing that's. straight to camera but you'd only. imagine you you did start out doing that. right you started out on YouTube yeah in. college humor we I was a writer there. and I developed Adam ruins everything. while I was there and then we sold it to. truTV I will say on my my live shows now. I I've just been on tour with my new. show mind parasites which is like me.

trying to figure out how what I do how. to do what I do in a stand-up context. right and so I took that all across the. country I'm hoping to set up some more. date soon it's this really cool show. about how these biological parasites. that control like their host minds like. this fungus that takes control of an ant. and like let's see a lot of weird things. like it's like literally their minds. become controlled on this parasite that. infects them and I use that a way to. talk about I use that as a way to talk. about the cultural parasites that are. controlling our minds like advertising.

like the social media algorithm like. alcohol in my case I put drinking. recently how long about a year ago dance. it no not at all no not at all man I'm. sorry I'm really sorry I know you'd love. to get me in a must moment and oh my. make a lot less news wait right away did. you yeah I'll cause bad for you but yeah. so that's that show is me going longer. right and I'm on stage for as a theme.

it's a theme yeah it's like got a title. it's got a it's got sections and I'm. writing out as a theme like initially as. yeah like. a framework for it yeah I did and and. that was so hard to write because as a. comic you're used to going up and just. like well just gonna riff on a new idea. oh that's a chunk and then I'll combine. it with that other chunk and then that's. my special right but I was like hey I. want to figure out a way to do what I do. which is like come up with an argument. and and some information and put it in a. framework so I was like all right mind.

parasites I'll talk about these. biological parasites I also want talk. about advertising time to write some. jokes and that was hard as hell to do a. felt like doing it backwards but I. worked it out a lot on stage and. eventually found it and the shows really. really click and now I'm really alright. chef and I were just talking about that. because Ari Shaffir is doing that with. his most recent hour his most reading. recent hours entirely about his history. in Orthodox Judaism he was serious. Orthodox Jew spent a lot of time and in.

Israel like living in one of those. religious commune type deals what do. they call those Rivas oh yeah what'd. they call it yeah yeah I think yeah I. think it's what he studied the the. Talmud and the Torah he studied that all. daily know that yeah I mean he's with 12. hours a day. Wow and then so this is nonsense the. [ __ ] am i doing that became Ari and so. his most recent special that he's in the. middle of creating right now it's called. Jew and it's the first time that he's.

ever done a total special from top to. bottom on one necessary act and he's. piecing it together like a sort of in. many ways it was influenced by some of. the hours that he saw when he went to. Edinburgh yeah and saw the festival but. he'd said that he wanted to do an. American style whereas they had these. themes but they didn't necessarily. emphasize the punchlines yeah and the. stand up and the left that's the same. problem I that's the same problem I had. because when you're writing that way you. need to make a point and that's often. hard like you're like all right that. joke was pretty good but I need I could. juice it more but I need to get to the.

next point you know yeah and so that's a. challenge with writing that way but I've. just been doing it enough on stage that. I've been able to like you know like. it's it's look I'm not gonna say I'm the. funniest guy on the planet when T's. [ __ ] ever but like it's got the. punch lines I wanted to have you know. it's awesome you know. cool think about it that way too is a. framework and then start from there I. know Chris Titus does it that way too. yeah a lot of guys do it that way. whether they'll try to make a framework. and then have all their ideas fit inside. of that framework yeah I mean the the. thing that I found out is the reason ice.

people ask me how I got into this you. know and I was just a comic in New York. just going up on stage and you know. after a while you learn how to make. people laugh but you don't know how to. make people give a [ __ ] about you. right like okay Greg I'm force an. audience to make a noise all at once you. know I mean but I can't make them and. remember me right and so when I started. talking about the stuff that I've. learned you know just an information. sponge I just pick up [ __ ] like this you. know and I started talking about you. know I'll do you know that the diamond. engagement ring was a scam on the part. of the De Beers Corporation in the 30s. and everyone just forgot now we think.

it's tradition right that was the first. but I ever did that with those my most. sort of famous signature bit people. started paying more attention you know. and oh my god I didn't realize that you. know and now I'm in this weird niche no. one else does what I do I do like. educational investigative comedy right. when you watch me you laugh and then. also you learn some mind-blowing [ __ ]. that you're gonna remember a year from. now you know and no one else is doing it. and so the cool thing about it is when I. go up there I'm not running in this you. said earlier make your own race you know.

or like don't run the same race as. everybody else ever every other comic. I'm like everywhere comics trying to win. the 100-meter dash and maybe Usain. Bolt's in the race with them right. that's Bill burr whoever's you know what. I mean Usain Bolt's trying to beat them. and they're like [ __ ] I can be pretty. fast but I'm never gonna be number one. you know I'm running a race I'm the only. person doing this you know like I'm just. doing a race off to the side where like. my show if you go to see Bill Byrd. there's more punch lines per second per. sure for sure right you're gonna you're. but on my show you're gonna learn about. some weird bugs and you're gonna think. differently about social media you know.

you're gonna you're gonna come away with. a new idea. yeah I've engineered it that way and and. so that's what I try to tell other. comics when they're just talking you. know when people see my show know how'd. you read this I'm like just figure out. what you can give people that other. people aren't giving them you know and. like it's possible to write in a. different in a different way you know I. miss doing straights - like I have my. straight stand up hour or I just go and. I tell you might stupid observations. about [ __ ] you know. and I love doing that material but that.

material is not gonna get me a Netflix. special you know because it's not. different enough you know I see what. you're saying so you've kind of like you. have a strategy for a little bit yeah. yeah what's also what I want to talk. about you know just cynical but yeah. yeah yeah it's not like you're being. disingenuous who you are yeah yeah it's. cool that you found a niche like that. you found this little groove that you. could cut into and it's worth you I have. a few bits that I do that are scientific. reality that people don't believe in or. the people wouldn't imagine until you. hear about a particularly biological.

stuff but but mine parasites is one. we've brought up in this podcast [ __ ]. thousand times yeah that's a pulse kyon. who's that Robert Sapolsky from Stanford. who's a top researcher and one of the. top researchers talk to Toxoplasma oh. yeah I talk about that a little bit in. my show yeah listen to his lectures on. it's you know that stuff is nuts. the toxoplasmosis is wild 15 million. Americans have it yeah probably me yeah. in your brain the cat parasite and my. understanding I watched I got this guy's.

research the research that I saw was. like not quite definitive enough to be. able to say this affects your behavior. it's like they think maybe probably so I. was like that's not enough for me for my. show but like so you know I talked about. but I'd you know what I talked about is. the way that like the social media. algorithm right is designed it's just. like evolution right it's like it's just. testing on you every single second. you're online instead of trying to see. whether the genes perpetuate themselves. this test is saying can I get you to. click are you upset are you gonna engage.

exactly a nice way to get you engaged to. piss you off exactly and if I can get. you to click all they do is they just. reproduce that same stimuli with little. changes just like evolution and by doing. that they're able to control our. behavior in a real [ __ ] way and. people know this you know but it really. is happening to you do you listen in Sam. Harris's podcast I've heard a couple. times yeah he's got a great one I'm. pulling up right now that I just. recommend yesterday but I'm gonna. recommend it again because it's that. [ __ ] good and it's about Facebook and. about how this is all set up it's called.

the trouble with Facebook and the guy's. name is Roger McNamee me nem but it's. episode 152. yeah. it's really fascinating because one of. the things they take into consideration. is that this company Facebook makes. their money off of collecting your data. the best way to collect your data is to. get you to engage the best way to get. you engaged is put things in your. newsfeed they're gonna piss you off yeah. and it's like they're this division. that's that's rising in this country is.

coincides yeah social media and it's not. coincidentally and here's the thing they. don't even the really [ __ ] up part is. the people who created these algorithms. that is not their intent they're not. trying to piss you off and they're not. trying to create division all they're. doing is they're like look we just want. people spend as much time on the site as. possible yeah. algorithm watch what they're doing and. give them more like that right and then. it's what's happening accidentally and. so then when we're all looking at. Facebook on like look what Facebook's. doing they're like what are you talking. about right it's just about we don't.

need to change anything. you know just we just have an algorithm. yet rewards engagement yeah I know I. know that you I know that you had a Jack. Dorsey on I did not hear that interview. I just know you had them on couple. tongue I know that people are pissed off. at what you know like and my own. personal piss off with them is that like. they don't they don't take enough. ownership of it you know like and that's. not just I don't want to spoke asonde or. Zuckerberg is the worst with it you know. that they these algorithms are causing.

these behaviors and then they're saying. oh that's not oh no we're not doing that. we've just like we're just trying to get. people to be on the site more like it's. like connect people you think they don't. change it well what if they had no. algorithm what if they just allowed it. to exist as just a virtual message board. you know Twitter no moderators Twitter. said well that's that's a problem itself. right cuz like that's like okay a. virtual message board with no moderators. is like um like let's just talk about. fighting for instance right like okay. when you've got a UFC fight right you've.

got a referee right you've got a. situation you've creative got you've got. a ring. you know you've set things up so hey. people are gonna get hurt but not more. than you want them to right no. moderators that's like hey let's have a. street fight with nobody watching right. no one's there's no rules there's an. unlimited number of people in there's. just people wailing on each other well. people are gonna get hurt you know so. like I think when you are. creating the platform you're creating. the place where the discussion is. happening you have a responsibility for.

what kind of discussion happens in that. place you know because you're the one. who set up the ground rules you know. they're trying to do that with YouTube. for a while they were trying to say that. like if you have a YouTube page and your. comments are filled with anti-semitic. hate that you can get in trouble for. that mmm hey you were supposed to clean. up your comments and that people want. what the [ __ ] are you talking about and. YouTube was like oh forget it yes I. think that should be on YouTube right. that's it YouTube YouTube is the one. that allowed that to happen in the. comments youtube's the ones saying that. we're not gonna moderate anything yeah. good day how can they well I mean you.

you you literally need physical. moderators yeah I know and then that's. the contradiction that they're basically. people there's so many people yeah and. this is the issue with Facebook this is. the issue with Twitter the real question. is like who gets to decide what is. offensive what is not I'm sure you're. aware of the learn to code fiasco oh I. hated her and her saying learn to code. and it was really mocking this idea that.

people were telling coal miners who are. losing their jobs you know hey those. jobs in computer programming yeah you. should learn to code yeah well started. mocking people by saying learn to code. and then learn to code apparently. according to Jack Dorsey and vigía it. got connected to anti-semitic remarks. and hate remarks and I started out this. level of internet this is nonsense it's. fascinating because that doesn't mean. anything learn to code is not offensive. yeah well it's ridiculous to ask a 50.

year old man who's a coal miner to learn. to code and doesn't have a formal. education that is ridiculous but I mean. the fact that you get banned for life. from saying that that's actually even. more ridiculous yeah but then there are. cases where people go and they try to. create like a if someone if someone who. look there are anti-semites out there. right they do try to come up with like. way is to indicate anti-semitism to each. other that other people won't detect you. know what I mean via you know slang. basically inter slang right and at some.

point someone needs to be able to say. okay wait hold on this is we figured out. this an ad Semitic slang so we're not. going to allow you to say. you know what I mean it's like [ __ ] like. 88 or what is another thing where it's. left out this is the problem right this. is the exact problem that you're talking. about so but the contrary the. contradiction that all of these. platforms have right is the early days. of the internet remember the early days. it was like people were really concerned. that people would start suing websites.

because what was on the website right. like like The Pirate Bay the big torrent. site you know like you're gonna get sued. because you've got DVD screeners on. there no hold on SEC we're just this is. just where people can upload the [ __ ]. you know Google getting sued because. they would you know direct someone of. the DVD experience they searched for a. leech DVD screener you know what I mean. and so that was a big concern in the. early days of the internet right and so. we established this precedent that like. no no these sites don't have a. responsibility for that right there just. how people are connecting to things. they're not the people doing the bad. [ __ ] right you go after the people doing. the bad [ __ ] not the people who made it.

possible to find the bad [ __ ] right now. though we're in such a place where so. all these businesses built themselves on. the idea of YouTube right we don't make. anything at YouTube we just give you a. place to upload your videos right so at. first that's fine all right just take. down the anti-semitic you know white. supremacy videos all right right but now. there's so so many of them right and. also not only that YouTube's algorithm. is directing people towards them and. YouTube is selling ads against them and. making money at them right and at the.

same time like you know these these. videos exist right and at the same time. they're still trying to say well we have. no responsibility for that happens like. hold on you guys built a system where. any kind of content is allowed and you. are you've also bought the citizen. that's directing people to that content. and you built a system that's making. money off of that content think you guys. have a little bit of responsibility now. I agree that the question of who. police's it or whatever that's an. extremely complicated conversation but. like that's what I'm just saying but. these companies trying to have it both.

ways they're trying to say we have no. responsibility for what's on the. platform but also we've allowed this. kind of content to go up you know I. don't know if YouTube. profits on anti-semitic videos I don't. know I talked about in my share of ad. monetizing aspect. of YouTube that affects people whenever. anything even remotely controversial. controversial. they've started they've started doing. that up until like there was a case I. talked about in my show like a year or.

two ago where they were like running. Under Armour brand Under Armour ads on. like white supremacy YouTube videos you. know then yeah. and that was like and their algorithm. was causing their algorithm was causing. that to happen right and these are. videos getting a hundred thousand two. hits and it was like major brands and. those brands found out Wow and then I. don't know these video like what kind of. I don't they say obvious anti-semitic. things and these were these were obvious. enough that anybody would be pissed off. about him yeah and so that's where the D. monetization thing came from right. because they're like oh [ __ ] now the.

people who actually pay us the. advertisers are pissed off right so okay. let's put a bandaid on the problem and. let's do monetize videos right here's. the problem now they're doing that. they're just doing that algorithmically. right they're choosing which videos to D. monetize algorithmically so sometimes. the Deamonte eye stuff that they. shouldn't that's definitely happened a. ton and a lot of [ __ ] is still getting. through the cracks you know and again. they're saying okay we did what we did. what we had to know you guys didn't. solve the [ __ ] problem because now. people are pissed off again right so. that is the vine that these companies. are in they're based on this premise of.

we don't monitor ate anything but when. you do that a lot of [ __ ] comes in and. now you're in the position where sorry. it's still your house the shit's. happened in your house you through the. house party dude likes like the vase got. broken it's your fault at the end of the. debt you have to take some. responsibility for it and well how am I. supposed to police 200 kids I don't know. you're the one who threw the party you. know that's a good at the scale that's. the problem. yeah be more with 200,000 kids in a. house totally because it's unmanageable. yeah when you think about how many.

different people are on YouTube and how. many different countries are uploading. videos and you know some of them are. Isis beheading videos yeah those those. like there's a bunch of cartel videos. that people have sent me to on YouTube. and they stay up for a little while yeah. you get to watch some horrible [ __ ] for. a little while before they catch on or. like I talked about these videos in my. show where like the the weird nonsense. kids videos on YouTube or it's like. people in spider-man costumes doing like. weird community theater you know what I. mean in like with spider-man else'. videos or like.

there's so many if you look at kids. YouTube it's still so full of it like. they've tried to stamp it out there's. still tons of it in these videos like. literally I show a video which is just. total nonsense like looks like it was. made by a computer it's just weird. garbage doesn't look wrong until you. actually watch it closely and then. you're like this video is saying weird. nonsense the video has 600 million views. right and it's just garbage right and I. have literally spent my whole life. trying to make good Internet content. make conda's the funny entertaining that. people like and I can't get close to.

that number of hits and it's because the. algorithm is controlling what people are. watching right so people reacting. towards people towards nonsense so that. people are watching this because it has. Elsa or spider-man or they're watching. this they're watching it because they're. a five-year-old and the video was given. to them up next by YouTube and the. videos title and keywords and like. content has managed to hack the. algorithm find the weird edge case in. the algorithm that put it in front of. those kids over and over it you've seen. the ones where they break down those. videos where it's yeah weird like. there's always like a baby and alcohol.

yeah and someone always gets hurt from a. broken bottle like over and over and. over again these things happen they do. that because it's sort of like they've. found that people make those videos have. found how to hack the out because. algorithms are not that smart right. they're not brilliant things they're. just like a little bit of code it's just. like in a video game you know when. you're playing a video game and you like. figure out you're like oh the video game. thinks that when X happens I'm trying to. do Y but now that I figured that out I. can exploit that right I can figure out. how to freeze that guy in place or or. just like when you're a kid and you.

could figure how to scroll the enemies. off the screen in NES games go left then. right oh they disappear you know you. could figure out how to how to hack the. algorithm that's what the people who. make these videos have done with the. algorithm as well they figure out a. little hole in a way that works and they. figure out oh if we just do this the. video will get shown again and again and. again and here's the thing. 70% of all videos watched on YouTube are. being served by the algorithm 70% people. watching a billion hours of YouTube the. day so so people are not choosing what. we're watching the algorithms choosing. and the people that the videos the. algorithm is showing us are the ones.

that people are like hacking you know. like these weird [ __ ] up videos it's. algorithm yeah that is really. interesting and it's also interesting. these companies have figured this thing. out like I don't know if you ever get. you see like whenever I post something. there will always be like if I post. something on Instagram there will be. look within the first second or two four. or five of these accounts that like are. you just gonna pretend I don't have a. giant booty and you're like what is this. and you go to it and it's a weird sneaky. sort of computer-generated thing where.

it'll say it on with a bunch of. different accounts yup the exact same. thing with emojis and then you go to it. and some ripped off pictures of some. girl with a big ass yeah and then. somehow or another they're trying to get. you yeah they've capitalized on this. comment section right to find people. that have posts that get a lot of. comments you get a lot of views and then. they go right to it. and yeah that's that's how they tap into. it and that's my point of how this works. right so Instagram set up a set up a.

comment system these people have figured. out how to hack the comment system to. get their [ __ ] spam on the top when. I seconds I mean so fast they couldn't. possibly written it yeah like it has to. be a program and that's and that's. instagrams fault for allowing that to. happen at the end of the day you know. what I mean like that's instagrams. problem to solve you know and that's the. problem all these platforms have that's. the problem YouTube has that's a problem. twitter has and so whenever they say oh. no it's just a couple bad apples it's. like you guys through the party you guys. figure out how to fix it you're a shitty. orchard son yeah YouTube's amazing in.

that you know you really can be. entertained with things like for someone. who's into obscure things. yeah ocular it's one of the best. resources ever yeah I made that career. off of YouTube yeah I mean it's but it's. also like if you want to watch old. things you want to watch interesting. things but you can find almost. everything on YouTube and you having. things that are not true let's this is. like where they're cracking down on. certain things it's there are videos. it's a library of alexandria man like I. remember there used to be like in New.

York I never actually went and did this. but there was like a museum that had. like lots of old archival TV you know. you could go back you could watch it the. first episode of Johnny Carson or. whatever you know what I mean I was like. oh that's so cool right now you don't. need to go to that library you can just. it's literally on YouTube the first. episode of Johnny Carson ever is on you. to who was the guest I don't remember I. don't think I'm exaggerating I have seen. it on the web I saw like his very first. appearance sure it's up there or at. least the early what yeah because maybe. the early ones weren't taped but it was. like super super early he's got like. back hair you know and so like you know.

every episode of The Daily Show ever is. on the Internet. you know and so and you know say you. like you know name some of the Senators. I go some of that just go watch you name. an old jazz musician you can what go. watch and play live you know I mean. watch the loneliest monk close-ups of. his hands you know what I mean that's. incredible that's incredible and so like. and I still hope in my heart of hearts. that like that is at the end of the day. YouTube is serving a good purpose. because we still have access to all that. information you know my videos do pretty.

well on YouTube my videos aren't aren't. white supremacists you know spider-man. nonsense they're good you know so. hopefully they're doing some good in the. world but at the you know as I hope in. my heart of hearts that like you know. this is still a positive force for. Humanity I think it's a positive force. but overall the problem that we're. talking about with its problem with. YouTube or the problem with the Facebook. algorithm or any of these things it's. people that suck that's the problem yeah. it's not it's not people that are. putting up videos of Thelonious Monk. it's not ya know someone making. something educational on vitamins or.

something like that it's [ __ ] yeah. the bullshit's the problem the problem. is people exploiting the system and. using that system to stick nonsense or. or bad things up there but if you're the. company that's allowing that [ __ ] to. happen and you make money off of it but. I you know it's an issue but it's also. it's like part of it is really. interesting to me like part I don't like. the fact it's all this I don't like the. fact there's some ungodly number of kids. that think the [ __ ] world is flat. because they watching YouTube videos no. one who is there while the guy was.

making the YouTube video go stop that's. not true yes I'll show you how this is. how you do it there you go there's the. data. okay next keep going stop that's not. true either you don't know [ __ ] you're. talking about of course it works like. that this is why it works like that and. this is what it means did you see our. video on the moon landing no oh this is. one my favorite videos we ever did so. you know it's about how the moon land. the the thesis is the moon landing could. not have been faked it would have been. harder to fake the moon landing then it. would have been to actually go to the. moon because the technology to fake it.

did not exist like when we talked to a. forensic film guy right who's like. spends he's got like he's got a [ __ ]. Oscar for you know analyzing old films. right and he. just through it he's like look the. shadows are parallel right they're not. diverging you know a closed light source. the shadows would diverge right so wait. a minute you know that that's like one. of the big arguments for the moon hoax. is that the shadows intersect the. shadows indicate multiple light sources. well that is because when you want the.

main argument that's that that is a I. believe that's reflected light okay I'm. getting past my memory of this segment. yeah dude I used to be a full-on moon. hoax or I fully believed we never went. to my shoulda brought this I watched the. documentary that was on Fox TV was on. news radios like 1995 my favorite. sitcoms ever by the way that is a. unacknowledged classic I have watched. the whole series like three times that.

show is so I'm sorry just go ahead well. anyway um. back then Fox News actually aired a full. one-hour show called called conspiracy. theory did we land on the moon and it. had me fully convinced yeah there was. all this [ __ ] that they showed like the. same background being used in multiple. moon missions that were supposed to be. on completely different parts of the. moon like house as possible they're. supposed to be like nowhere near each. other but they have the same background. and that is it looks like the astronauts.

are on wires and it looks like the light. sources or their multiple light sources. and the shadows are intersecting and. yeah you know all the [ __ ] astronauts. when they came back they did this Apollo. 11 post flight press conference and. looked like they're completely full of. [ __ ] I was all in dude oh yeah. all in and they're all out no I realize. I don't know what the [ __ ] I'm talking. yeah one of the we all need them with. being all in with in with anything but.

we also found that they did fake some. things for publicity purposes. photographs that were used that were. photographs from tests that they did. inside a warehouse with all safety. equipment and then they blacked out all. the safety equipment in the background. and pawned those photos off as spacewalk. photos but I think that's overzealous. publicist that doesn't mean no one went. to space I was like making leaps. is about what's the simplest explanation. if you did fake some footage well it's. probably a bunch of simple explanations.

but overzealous publicist people wanted. to show people video that they didn't. have video of maybe the the photos. didn't come out so well so they faked. some of them well let me the the thing. about the shadows diverging my memory of. this is we don't talk about that when. people say they see the shadows diverge. right if you actually go outside on a. sunny day when you have a single point. of light like that with light reflecting. you will see two shadows of yourself. going a different there's one dominant. shadow and then there's a there's a. secondary one right yeah but if the shed. if the Sun is actually far away right.

for the main shadow you will see the. same shadows be parallel right if you. had a close light source like on a film. on a film set you see the shadows to. verge right so if this film forensic guy. come on and tell us look if you wanted. to get perfectly straight light like. that you would need lasers you would and. you would also but you'd also need. multicolored lasers because at the time. all that existed were red lasers right. they had not existed they not invented. anything other than red lasers right so. NASA would have had to have multi like. multi-decade advanced laser light. technology in order to fake this another.

part of it is if they just hired Kubrick. I can't figure it out no this is what we. demonstrate in our segment you know. another part of it is people forget the. moon broadcast the moon landing. broadcast was something like a six-hour. live broadcast with no cuts you know and. at the time that was something you could. do with TV but you literally couldn't do. it with film right there was no way to. record film sorry there's no ready to. record TV at the time you had live TV. and you had recorded film right so if.

they were gonna record it in advance. right and then play it back they would. have needed a six hour long reel of tape. the rival commercials and there won't. believe so and so they would have had to. would they so we should probably know if. there was commercials fair point game. but you know you would have needed like. an enormous film canister didn't exist. it but if anybody's gonna have an. enormous film canister it would be those. [ __ ] hoaxers at NASA well part of the. premise of the part of the premise of. the we didn't go to the moon argument is.

that we don't have the technology to go. to the moon so they faked it right but. it's like okay well if you have to. postulate that they had decades ahead. it's time filmmaking technology why. can't you accept that they just went to. the [ __ ] moon you know so that at the. end when you go through all the things. that would have to happen right in order. to make it have you really go through it. and look at what is the simplest. explanation the simplest explanation is. that we went to the moon because it. would have been [ __ ] easier I don't. know if it would have been easier if it. was impossible to go to the moon it. would be insanely difficult to fake no. doubt but if you had an incredible.

budget and if you had someone who really. had the very top of the food chain. knowledge in terms of special effects. what Kubrick did in 2001 one was when. was that when the 2001 come out one say. like 71 or some [ __ ] yeah selling like. that when does that come out uh let's. see yeah look it up I think that's. really ER than that maybe 68 68 okay so. we're talking about before the moon. landings Kubrick had some pretty.

astonishing special effects in 2001 yeah. but the the I mean the argument is that. like even given again this is like. filmmaker saying this given the film. technology of the time the specific. features that we see in the moon footage. are not faked about you know another. part of it is for instance the slow. jumping right the slow boom you know. you're on the moon. right the big argument that the moon. truthers make is that it was regular. speed footage and it was slowed down. right and there's this dude on I can't.

wear the name of it but if you see a. filmmaker on YouTube right he just. breaks down why like the ability to over. crank and like shoot and slo-mo like. that like didn't that wasn't how film. cameras worked at the time you know and. so you know couldn't you're good you're. good asking questions cuz you asked me. to get into details that I don't have on. my head but that's the art that's the. argument that that the dude makes it's. not one of the argument that we make. specifically on our show because we only. had six minutes so we pressed once I.

also know about well how much your. audience do you think is going to be. [ __ ] furious at me for talking about. this because they believe the moon. landing was faked it's always a number. man there's a number of yeah I think. that vaccines cause autism you know I. had a dr. Peter Hotez on here. who is an expert in tropical diseases. and autism safety and he's explaining. that they've isolated five environmental. factors that think contribute to autism. when it's in the child's womb they've.

isolated genes they think they've got an. understanding of what's causing this or. how it's how at least it's happening but. it's happening in the womb they don't. think there's any connection yeah. vaccines and autism they think there's. people who have autism who get. vaccinated in their autism symptoms. yeah show up but they were probably. going to have those symptoms anyway yep. and there's a human correlation that. they make yep it doesn't mean that some. people don't get it verse Li affected by. vaccines because people have very. strange reactions to all sorts of things. because we very biologically it doesn't.

mean that vaccines are giving people. autism and when you say that people go. [ __ ] ballistic and yeah the comments. fill with hate and Zionist shill and. this and that yeah this it's wild I get. that [ __ ] a lot but but what we're doing. here you and I even if we disagree this. is what I think is one of the most. important things of our time is the. ability to have reasonable conversation. I agree and I try to tell people when. they disagree with me because when. people come at me with a lot of heat on. the internet you know a lot times I.

don't have time to get into it you know. but I do like to occasionally you know. reply and say you know some of the oh. you're so full of [ __ ] like you lied. about this and that bah bah bah bah you. know and I try to can do it say and I. and I say hey thanks for watching the. show you know I don't feel that we lied. this what our evidence says you know. what what do you think you know I try to. take their temperature down you know and. I don't match their anger is the most. important part I'm like much nicer than. their anger demands you know and that. usually cools them off right away when. we have a conversation you know and a.

lot of the time when I do that they. leave going ok you know what we we don't. disagree that much you know or or ok. thanks for talking to me you know yeah. but the most important thing I say to. them is even if I don't turn them around. on whatever the issue was I say okay. they say I'm never gonna watch your show. again because you lied about this you. know or cuz I disagree but you're wrong. about this I'm never watching a show. again and I say ok why would you never. watch the show again just because you. disagree with me about one thing like I.

watch tons of stuff with people I don't. disagree you. like they don't really mean that they. just want you to feel bad yeah yeah I'm. never watching you again followed like. does anybody think it's a good idea to. only consume [ __ ] that you already agree. with I think it's better to challenge. yourself and to watch things that you. that you don't agree with all the time. now Fox News at least one hour every. week do you really have to watch yeah.

get an hour and just go what the [ __ ]. yeah I mean there's a lot of you know. they're like I want to know what white. people are really up to when they're. around me they lie I need to know what. Laura Ingraham she's go for laughing at. Nipsey Hussle 's funeral that was but. very bizarre strange it's very very. strange to be laughing to be so dialed.

in to that look I understand when you're. in when you're one of those hosts right. you have a message you're dialed into it. you got to say that message every single. day every single time you're like I'm. your model maniacal about it and you. know what I mean but to do that about. about someone's death specifically. bizarre you know and that sort of gives. you sometimes I think that TV shows are. like a curse you know like I feel for. anybody who has to be on TV every day. because they their life narrows down to. that little camera lens and they can't. have a thought outside of it you know.

what I mean so all those people Tucker. Carlson Rachel Maddow Laura Ingraham you. know what I mean like they like chambers. yeah apart from me disagreeing with you. know some of them on various things I. disagree with all those folks on. occasion like to live your life right in. that land saying the same thing every. night it must really impoverish your. point of view and in a way that's really. a bummer and me seeing her do that was. like yeah that's a great perspective. impoverishing your point of view I think. you're onto the thank you i I mean. that's when I saw that when I saw that.

clip of her I was like I can't I can't. believe you know but it's T being on TV. makes you a crazy person it probably. does man and with them with Laura. Ingraham was also they just played a. clip of one of Nipsey Hussle videos from. one of the songs that was called [ __ ]. Donald. Trump yeah and they were mocking the. song and laughing about look it's not. about that guy's art the guy's dead he. is murdered in Los Angeles and obviously. you look at all the hundreds of. thousands of people that are mourning. him in the streets they loved him yeah.

why did they love him maybe look at that. maybe because he was giving back to the. community maybe he's because the guy. became successful and still wanted to be. in the community and help people out. maybe because he was a positive. influence on a lot of young people yeah. so he had a song called [ __ ] Donald. Trump whatever and the work you know the. worst thing I think what's that he's on. that song but it's not his who's talking. yg what is the one cuz ice-cubes got a. dope song about the president he might. might be like kill the arrest the. president the president pretty [ __ ].

good you know the worst thing that I. think is his new ice-cubes new [ __ ] the. worst thing I think that people say is. like the the perspective that she had. was okay because he doesn't like Donald. Trump he's not worthy of respect right. I'm not I'm not gonna be sad he's dead. because he said something to me about. Donald Trump right that is such a. malignant version of the way that so. many people feel like the most. frustrating thing people say to me is um. you know on our comp no comments page on.

YouTube page this guy's a liberal this. guy's a Democrat so I'm not gonna listen. to it I'm like okay well first of all we. criticize Democrats and liberals all the. time on the show you know so those. people are like do a responsibility like. doesn't Adam Conover realize he's. criticizing a Democrat priority and I'm. like yeah I thought I'm you know like we. are we do not do a political show you. know look I live in Los Angeles right I. went to college I didn't vote for Donald. Trump you know what I mean. like most people who didn't alright so. I'm gonna I'm gonna fess up to that.

right why does that mean that you would. never listen to anything I ever had to. say or that you would treat me with. disrespect right cuz they're trying to. make you feel bad bro I'm talking about. it right now so they win yeah okay we. can move off of it but you know that. idea of someone who disagrees with me is. like not a person who I'm gonna listen. to anymore what what a bummer those are. the people from all perspectives and I. thought that's my goal even more. insidious what they're doing is they're. trying to say this whole life that was. just lost is this one.

clip that says [ __ ] the [ __ ] down now. that's so stupid. he's obviously a lot of things like. that's quote mining you're taking a. little tiny piece of some things that he. did out of context and you're putting it. on your show and then you're mocking his. death and it's it's it's unfortunate but. again I think it's these echo chambers. these people think it's okay to do that. yeah they know that the other people. that are like them I'm gonna react the. same way like why the guy had a song. called [ __ ] Donald Trump I mean hey [ __ ]. you oh yeah and then they just get they.

all just repeat that and they feel like. that's like the people that were shocked. that Trump won they couldn't believe. anybody would vote for Trump cuz. everybody around you would not yeah you. get stuck in these echo chambers you. don't understand how other people. outside see it yeah and I think that's. what's happening you know with this it's. a hundred percent sad so guys [ __ ]. dead guy was murdered yeah we did a you. know we did a segment on on guns right. we didn't Episode on guns and I always. thought that I said at the beginning of. our show we'd never do an episode on. guns because it's too divisive and as. soon as we did the topic people everyone. would fold their arms and theirs are you.

do an episode on guns well you better. say what I want you to say or I'm. changing the channel right and weed but. we'd been doing the show for four years. I was like I think we can finally do it. and here's the thing everybody is wrong. about guns that's the premise of our. show everyone's wrong about everything. you know right if you think you know. about something you probably don't and. anything any topic that I do I'm gonna. tell you something you don't know right. and so we specifically did an episode. that's about you know we we had a a you. know a gun gun rights advocate a gun. control advocate I'm talking to both of. them and they're both making mistakes. right about it and that was the point.

was that like the thing that liberals. now I don't want say liberals the thing. that gun control advocates right often. failed to do is they failed to take. seriously that the gun rights advocates. are like real people who live in the. same country as them who they need to. deal with as humans right that it like. the NRA is has a lot of I'm not gonna. defend the NRA for a second right I.

think the NRA is a very extreme. organization that is not productive you. know but like the average gunk and the. average gun owner in your community. right is a real person you have to deal. with right if you're just in your echo. chamber and you're not taking that. person seriously then you're not gonna. make an. progress right and so you need to you. know gun control advocates aren't just. as much need of correction you know and. just as much need of checking themselves. and you know examining their own biases. and you know getting closer to the truth. as as gun rights advocates well.

particularly if you want to ever resolve. it or come to any sort of an agreement. you can't treat the other people like. they're stupid yeah like you [ __ ]. morons don't get it okay that's not. helping anybody and now that the issue. with people that also get angry at. people who voted for Trump they want to. say they're all stupid okay you want to. say that half the country stupid mm-hmm. that's not a good idea let's yeah smart. yeah I want to say by the way reason I. said I went to college I didn't vote for. Donald Trump not because I a lot of. college a lot of people went to college. did vote for Donald Trump the trend is. that they is that they didn't vote for. him you know so I was trying to say I'm. in a different demographic but I don't.

want people to think I was replying I. believe so yeah I mean that's sort of. how it breaks down like people you know. people with bas or higher tend to tend. to vote for Democrats so I'm just like. given a nod to the demographics here. this is how it works right I got to wrap. this up yeah that's the man that was a. lot of fun can you believe it holy [ __ ]. for a while thank you oh you got that I. was wondering what time it was well this. has been a real I really appreciate that. we got deep on some yeah it was fun man. I appreciate it and tell everybody when. your show is when they can watch it Adam.

ruins everything son truTV we got. episodes on Netflix new episodes are. coming out probably around August don't. have an exact date yet but we're having. our next run of eight or not then more. you're thinking to do this you know. hopefully and check out my new podcast. fact Julian's no no sorry hopefully. pretty soon we will know whether we're. doing it we're between we're waiting for. a pickup right yeah I love doing the. show look I'm gonna be doing what I do. for the rest of my life no matter where. I'm doing it so oh that's a good way to. look awesome either way Adam thank you.

thank you so much man thank you. [Music].