Why 'Theo of Golden' Has Touched Millions of Readers with Allen Levi and Oprah

Strangers would stop and ask [music] me, "Hey, Oprah, have you read Theo of. Golden? It's your kind of book." The. book started off self-published. by a first-time author [music] with no. publicity or marketing campaign to then. [music] topping the New York Times. bestseller list. >> There was no deadline, no editor, no. writing coach, no publisher, no agent. >> This is unbelievable. >> I cried a lot as I wrote this book. >> You did? and fell in love with the. characters because they all remind me of.

someone I actually know. This man could. love lots of people unlike himself. I. wonder if I could do the same thing. >> That's exactly what happened to me. >> For anything to be good, truly good, there must be love in it. It's the. truth. >> That's right. >> I think that if we accept that premise. [music] as a rule for life, >> yeah, >> we have to figure out, okay, what is. love and then how do we live it out? And. I think that the novel for me, as I look. at it now, was maybe an attempt on my. part to answer those questions. What. does it look like to live [music] a life.

of love? >> Hi everybody. I'm so glad to be here. with you on the Oprah podcast. Welcome. to my front porch. So many people were. telling me, so many people were telling. me about this book. People I knew, people I didn't know. Strangers would. stop and ask me, "Hey Oprah, have you. read Theo of Golden? it's your kind of. book. And it turns out it actually is my. kind of book. This book quietly became. what the New York Times calls a word of.

mouth smash hit. The book started off. self-published. by a firsttime author with no publicity. or a marketing campaign to then topping. the New York Times bestseller list. It. is my great pleasure to welcome the. author Alan Levi to my front porch. >> And Alan Levi is delighted and honored. to be here. Thank you, Oprah. I could. never have dreamt in a thousand years. that uh that this could happen. >> Well, I so wanted to talk to you about.

this beautiful book because it is a bomb. of good. >> a bomb of good feelings for readers. >> And uh I I feel really honored to be. able to sit here with you on my porch. >> Well, thank you. >> And talk to you. So, you're a former. musician, I hear, >> right? Or you are still a musician. >> I pit. I p. Yeah. The book thing has. taken over my life the last couple of. years. >> Yeah. [music]. >> But I was a traveling musician for 15 or. 20 years. >> And you were an attorney. >> Was an attorney for 13 years. >> Yeah. >> Was a judge for a couple of years. >> Um, >> which of those things did you like the.

most? >> You know, I liked something about all of. the music I really love. I love writing. songs. Still do. Uh, even though I've. not done it much lately. to serenade. [singing]. someone [music] to serenade. >> But I really love the book thing. >> Yeah. You love the book thing. >> I love the book thing. Uh and and it's a. surprise to me because it takes so long. to write a book. >> First of all, can we just say this, Alan? Um can you believe yourself right.

now? Can you believe the in incredible I. mean incredible and all that that word. means appeal that this book has had for. readers around the world. I mean in your. wildest wildest wildest dreams did you. imagine the outcome of the success of. Theo of Golden? >> Never. Ever. You know the story. I mean. it was never supposed to be published. >> Yeah. I know the story but they don't. know the story. So. >> can I share the story? >> Share the story. >> Yeah. So, uh, I had just finished a. short stint as a judge.

>> Mhm. >> Uh, I didn't know what I would do next. I didn't want to travel again as a. musician. I was kind of tired of that. And I just happened to walk into a. coffee shop with which I was very. familiar. >> And there were portraits on the wall, 92. portraits, all done by a dear friend of. mine, Gary Pound. >> Dr. Gary [music] Pound has been a friend. of Allens for nearly four decades. He is. an artist from Columbus, Georgia. Well. known [music] for his portraits, his. landscapes and illustrations. Fountain.

City Coffee in Columbus, Georgia is the. beloved home for Gary's coffee shop. series of portraits that served as. [music] one of the inspirations for. Allen's novel Theo of Golden. And I was looking at the portraits and I. thought, wouldn't it be fun to buy all. of these one at a time and give them to. the people portrayed in the frames? So, I bought four of them. I took them home. and began to kind of ruminate on the. faces. What is the story that that face. tells? >> And so I wrote some scenes where I was.

giving the portrait to someone. And then. >> so you're Theo. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no. [laughter]. Let me disabuse you of that quickly. >> Theo is who I would like to be. >> Okay. >> But but I could tell there's a story. here. >> Okay. So, we're not going to give, of. course, the plot away to you all. My. hope is that you all will buy and read. this book if you haven't already. Uh. Theo of Golden. Uh it's going to make. you feel really good about yourself, better about your own life, and make you. notice a lot of other people's lives. On. its surface though, the story follows an.

elderly man named Theo who arrives in a. small southern city and then he begins. buying the pencil portraits just like. Allen originally did of local residents. one by one and returning them to the. people that they depict. And this simple. act then becomes an extraordinary. catalyst for like connection and. transformation. First of all, the four. that you bought, did you ever contact. those people? >> I did not. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I still don't know who.

they are except for one. >> uh the uh the Ellen character in the. book and I've met her just recently. She. is a delightful delightful person. Uh. but I don't know the others. >> Well, had you been writing all along? I. know you're a musician. You wrote songs, but had you been writing stories? >> No stories. No stories. >> No stories. >> Yeah. A lot of times to set up songs in. concert. Yeah. >> I would write little vignettes that I. might share between songs. You know how. >> But how did you know you could write? >> Um I didn't. And so this was a personal. challenge. Could I write at all? And did.

I have the stamina or the muscle to sit. still long enough to do a piece of long. fiction? And so I started writing this. story with no idea of what the plot was. going to be, who the characters would. be. Theo didn't come until really I had. been writing for a while. I was trying. to figure out how do I tie these. bestows, these giftings of the portraits. together. >> So it took me two or three years to do. it. I would write off and on since there. was no deadline, no editor, no writing. coach, no publisher, no agent, I was. free to do it at whatever pace I wanted.

to work at. So, I did it off and on. And. when I finally finished it, I patted. myself on the back. I'm capable of. writing a piece of long fiction and was. done with it. >> But I've got five friends with whom I. spend a long weekend every year. These. are old college friends. >> Uhhuh. >> And they knew I was working on a. manuscript of some kind. And they said, "May we read it?" And I was reluctant, but I said, "Yeah, you can read it, but. it it may not be worth your time." They. read it. They liked it. They said, "We. think you should do something with it.". And I trusted and still trust their.

judgment much more than my own. So, I. said, "Okay, we'll try to do something.". >> Until then, how did you find a. publisher? >> I didn't. >> You didn't? >> I didn't. Uh, I was I was talking with a. niece of mine, Erin, uh, who works with. me still. I love the young woman. And. she was looking for a job change. And I. had finished the book. I've always been. really, really poor at self-promotion or. marketing. I was awful at it as a. musician, but I said, "Aaron, here's. what we will do. I have written the. book. Uh, you're going to do everything.

else. You've got to figure out graphic. design. You've got to figure out how. we're going to market it." And she went. to work and I tightened up the. manuscript a bit. Again, I didn't have. anyone to help me. So, >> you didn't have an editor. >> I didn't have an editor. And so, I This. >> is unbelievable. >> I stumbled forward all through the. process, Oprah. And it was so daunting. to me, but I honestly had no expectation. we would sell a copy, much less a lot of. copies. But Erin and I just kind of. figured it out and she put it up online. and the kindness of strangers and the.

favor of God has gotten us where we are. >> Okay. So, you sold what? Several. thousand copies in the beginning, I. heard. >> Yeah. So, we started in November of 23. and we sold 3,000. Yeah. uh in in that. that first month or two and I would have. been happy to retire the project at that. point but people kept sharing it and. sales kept increasing. So by the middle. of uh last year uh sales were were kind. of impressive and Aaron and I were. gobsmacked and overjoyed and shocked. Uh.

and then we started getting calls from. people in the business who said can we. take your book and do something with it? >> Wow. >> There we go. >> Okay. So, you go from self-publishing. with Aaron to figuring out what the. cover is with Aaron, doing all that on. your own. Then you get the call, you go. with a publisher, and then you get the. call that you're on the list that. everybody, you know, dreams of as an. author that, you know, seasoned authors. wait for that Wednesday call to see if. they made the list. What did you think. when you got the call? Where were you.

when you got the call that you're New. York Times number one bestselling book? I was putting up birdhouses uh in the. pasture out in front of my home, which. is one of my favorite things to do and. one of my favorite places to be. The. book had started getting traction. >> Uhhuh. >> It was a shock. >> Yeah. >> And we were delighted with that, but uh. yeah, the team called and congratulated. me and Aaron on the sales and so we. shouted and and hung up and I returned. to Hanging Bluebird houses. [laughter].

>> Okay. You came up with this idea for. your character Theo and he begins buying. the pencil portraits one by one and. returning them to the people that they. depict. What was it about those quiet. relational moments, the active giving. back someone's own portrait, the bestows. as you call them, that allowed us to see. another part of what it means to be. human. >> Yeah. Keep in mind, Oprah, that when I.

was writing this, I mean, the world was. and continues to be just in a place of. real division and mean-spiritedness. >> That's my interpretation of it. >> Yes. >> And it felt like a story of kindness. might serve us well. Again, I was not. writing for an audience, but I did have. in mind if if someone were to read this. manuscript, what might I like them to. take from it? So, I was trying to appeal. to the better angels of our nature. And. who doesn't like to be told that there. is something really wonderful about.

their life and not in a superficial. Yeah. >> or pretentious sort of way. Yeah. And. the old man seemed to have a real. superpower at doing that. >> Yeah. >> And uh and every time he gave a portrait. before he actually put it in their. hands, >> he would say, "This is who I see in this. face.". >> Yes. And it allowed people to think of. themselves in a way that they hadn't. before. Right. And you describe Theo of. Golden as being like a story, you say, of creative generosity, right? >> Yeah. Of growing old well, of bearing.

grief. I just love that. Bearing grief. gracefully, >> building friendships through, you know, sharing stories, right? All of that. And. a call to. >> um to live lives of little nameless, unremembered acts, that's what you say, of kindness and love. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Did you ever, Alan, surprise yourself with how tender and. powerful the themes became in this. story? >> I did. I did constantly. >> And I'm not an easy weeper. >> Yeah. >> But I cried a lot as I wrote this book.

>> You did? >> And fell in love with the characters. because they all remind me of someone I. actually know. >> Really? I can't say that I modeled any. of the characters on a particular. person, but particularly Theo uh. reminded me of my brother who died a few. years ago. He he's younger than me, but. he was my hero in life, my best friend, my. >> my mentor in so many things, my. spiritual guide, >> and I realized now maybe in hindsight. that I was channeling my brother's uh.

life into the old man. But I really fell. in love with the characters, and that. surprised me a lot. Well, and I heard. that when you started writing the story, Theo of Golden, which I hope you all. get. When you started writing the story, it wasn't fully formed. >> That's right. It was not even partially. formed. >> And you just were hoping something would. bubble up. >> That's right. Have you not heard that. before? You. >> It doesn't work. >> Yeah. >> It didn't work for me. >> It didn't work. >> Oh, I worked and worked and worked and. nothing bubbled up. I just could not.

[laughter] I could not get a story to. form. But I just stayed with it. And by. the time I had finished what I I think. now has become the book, uh there were. lots of of sections that needed to be. cut. So I took those out. I think I. >> How did you How did you know? You didn't. have an editor. >> Yeah, it was pure instinct. And so I. took probably a 100 pages of text out of. the book and just hoped that what was. left behind uh would constitute a a. story. >> How did you know then what like we're. certainly not going to go give give the.

ending away. When did you know that it. was going to be that ending? >> Pretty early on. Once I realized I don't. have a story and then started trying to. conjure up something of a narrative, you. know, a narrative arc, uh, had a little. more definition within which to work. >> Yeah. >> But once once I made the choice, okay, this is going to kind of be the flow of. the story. Then the ending came real. real quickly. >> Well, I I like you, I've known for a. long time that we're all spiritually. connected, of course. >> Yeah. To the energy of all creation.

That I'm a part of it and it's a part of. me. And you write in the book, you say, "I fear we own all of the world's hurt. together.". That line stuck with me. And later you. say, "Was there after all one big river. that flowed across the earth?". >> You know, the word river is mentioned so. many times in this book. My team says. the the word river is mentioned 65 times. in the book. Wow. >> Was what what is it about water and its.

flow that appeals to you? Yeah. >> What is it about the river? >> Yeah. Do you. >> And the river is prominent. Uh it it. actually almost takes the the place of a. character itself. >> Well, Golden is its own character. That's right. >> The city of Golden is its own character. >> And it's on a river. Uh I call it the. Oxbow River. And then the Duro River in. Portugal. Yeah. Theo was a Portuguese. man. Grew up on the river. Uh I think. river as metaphor for so many things is. a powerful image. >> Yeah. >> For all of us. the continuity of it, the. depth of it, the purity of it if it's.

allowed to run its course. >> Uh and then again, just the. connectedness of it, the fact that some. of the water from the Duro River might. have made its way across the ocean and. and up uh the Chattahuchi River to. Golden to to plant a seed on the bank of. the river, something but the idea of. connectedness uh that water is on so. many levels is I think why I chose that. to be a prominent thing. You know when I. have uh discussed this book with friends. we all agreed that the gift is not the. portraits themselves all right that the.

real the portraits themselves that's. nice. >> but the real bestowal is the idea that. Theo sits with each person and each. person is truly seen. >> right. >> yeah they are seen something that I. think everybody is yearning for I mean. that's one of the big lessons I learned. learned from the Oprah show, you know, after talking to so many guests, I could. see that this there was this thread that. what everybody is looking for is to know. did you hear me and did you see me and.

did what I say matter. How did you come. to this to learn that that's what every. person was looking for? Because no. matter who who Theo sits with, they come. away with feeling seen and and also. having a different way of seeing. themselves. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think Oprah, it's just the. fruit of the spirit. I love people. Uh. >> it's the fruit of the spirit. >> It's the fruit of the spirit, you know, uh to love people and and I live in a. very small community. Uh I I know a lot.

of the people in my community, but I. love to hear people's stories. >> and to quote your book, What Happened to. You? >> Yeah. >> People I think want to be seen. They. they want to be vulnerable with someone. they can trust. >> Yeah. And I think just growing up around. good talkers myself and being heard and. seen by people who I love well uh maybe. inspired me to u to give that skill set. to the old man and see what he could. make of it. >> You know, well, of course, since I've. been talking to people for so many. years, I can honestly say that I have.

always recognized that for everybody. who's watched our show, your story. matters. But it's something about how. quietly, how gently, and how deeply you. tell this story. And it's something. about how Theo's quiet, calming, yet. warm dignity that actually made me in my. own life more cognizant, more thoughtful. about truly seeing other people. I want. to know how did your own life. experiences, your time as a musician,

your time as a lawyer, your time as a. traveler, your time as a judge, shape. the way you wrote Theo's generosity. >> Yeah, I think maybe on a on a broader. spectrum. Uh I think all of my work has. made me attentive part of it because I. had to be. >> Oh, you got a case ready for trial, you. better be real attentive to details. >> Yeah. uh as a songwriter uh I I I woke. up most days looking for something to. write about which meant I had to be. attentive to to possible subject matter. and then uh I think again just having a.

a love for people uh that's that's a. part of my faith love my neighbor as. myself love God with heart so mind and. strength and my neighbor. >> uh but being attentive to the fact that. everyone has a story to tell having time. because I live in a small town maybe. >> that I can can move it a somewhat slower. slower pace and then just living with an. adorational attentiveness to what's. going on around me. >> One of the things that makes the book so. relatable, I think, is uh its mystery. >> cuz we're all wondering along with the.

folks in town, who is this guy? >> He isn't famous. Who is he? What what. what do you what do you know about about. this guy? Was it a choice to make him a. stranger? >> Yes, very definitely. >> Yeah. >> I wanted something that would pull the. reader forward because it's a slowm. moving book. Most of the action in the. story takes place on a bench. >> Yeah. >> And it's just people talking. >> You're waiting to see who's going to. show up on that bench and if they're. going to show up, >> right? And so I was thinking, how do I. keep the the reader engaged? And this. this aspect of uh of secrecy about Theo,

I thought might might just keep people. involved in. >> how you knew how to do this, Alan. I'm. just fascinated. >> It might be because I read a lot. >> Yeah. Okay. >> I love I love to read. I'm not a very. good reader. I read slowly. My retention. is awful. I complicate both of those. traits by reading too many books at the. same time. But I am an avid reader and. I'm a delighted reader. I love to read. And I think maybe just. >> I know you sent me this beautiful letter. saying that you've chosen a lot of books.

by the three words Opra's Book Club. >> I have indeed. Yeah, I really have. And. some of the books that that that have. that. >> Opra's Book Club. >> Yeah. The Oprah's Book Club uh seal on. it uh have been mindstretching for me. I. love the fact that you challenge. readers. They are not easy reads. >> Yeah. Not all of them are. No. Yeah. Yeah. Some of them are not intended to. They're they're every book I choose is. meant to get you to think more deeply. about yourself, your own life. Some of. them are more fun, more light-hearted. than others, but everything is chosen to.

with myself and the reader in mind. I. read it thinking, "Okay, can I get a. million other people to like this?". >> Well, well done. It It works. >> It works. But but I think I think that. reading a lot just by osmosis uh the. style of writing maybe that I'm. gravitating toward is just uh the result. of reading other. >> uh really good writers. I hope I become. one. >> How did how did Well, listen, don't you. think you are once you're on the. bestsellers list and all these people. are buying your books and talking about. it?

>> Yeah, that's nice. >> That's nice. >> That's nice. And it's very affirming. I. I don't at all uh diminish that. I'm I'm. I'm more honored than I can begin to. say. the fact that I'm sitting with you. uh is is kind of the the crown jewel. But yes, so that is very affirming. But. I know that there's a lot that I can. improve in the way that I write. >> I thank you for that. I thank you for. for for honoring me with your words. There is a sprawling cast of characters. in Theo of Golden. You give them all. complete complex backstories with just a.

small amount of words. So how did each. one appear to you? Yeah, early once I. figured out, okay, this is going to be a. story and I want the main character to. be someone who has an expansive ability. to engage with with people unlike. himself. I wanted each of those. characters to bring something different. out of Theo. And so for him to to be. able to engage so affectionately with a. woman who was unhoused, who had had some. real hardship in her life, uh that made.

him a character, I think, with a large. heart. That he could engage with a. school maintenance man. >> Mhm. >> That he could talk to a little boy who. had physical challenges. >> Yes. >> Uh that he would talk to a newspaper. reporter who had been abandoned by a. father and had really, really awful. images of herself in her mind. Uh I. wanted those. I wanted all of those. characters to bring something else out. of Theo and and make us leave the. reading experience with the with the the. clear image. This man could love lots of.

people unlike himself. I wonder if I. could do the same thing. >> That's exactly what happened to me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You do that, Oprah. Oprah. >> Yeah. But it just enhanced it. It It. tightened it. It intensified it in a way. that that I hadn't. It made me pay. It. made me more attentive is what it did. Me too. >> It made me more attentive. >> Just to be clear, me too. >> It did did the same thing for you. writing it. Yeah. >> Yeah. And and when I say that Theo is an. aspirational character to me, I really. mean it. I really hope that I will be.

someone like Theo in the book. Yeah. Really? >> Well, social media, y'all, is just a. buzz about Theo of Golden. Not only is. it bestseller, but everybody's talking. about this book. One fan is country. singer songwriter Walker Hayes. And you. know him from his number one hit song, Fancy Like and he is joining us from his. home in Tennessee. Hi, Walker. I hear. this novel had a huge impact on you. How. so? >> Unbelievable. Uh life-changing. Oprah,

thanks for having me. Allan, it's an. honor. I I could go on and on for days, my man. Uh I felt adopted by this book. I truly did. I Theo Theo to me is an. adopter. um kind of like God is, you. know, for for all of us. And it made me. want to adopt every single person I. meet. My it made me want to adopt my. wife, my kids. It just. >> it changed me instantly and and uh I.

promise you, man, I've sold you a. thousand copies. I'm going to [laughter]. sell you I'm going to sell you more and. more, my man. I'm I'm blown away by this. book. >> Well, thank you. >> How did you come to it? How did it come. to you? Was it word of mouth? Somebody. said you should read it like they did. me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. My niece my niece texted me. and said this book uh just reminds me of. you of something you need you need to. read. And uh honestly I'm not the the. most you know the more people push.

something on me the less likely I am to. dive in. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> I don't know I don't know why but man I. I I got a copy. My mom and my sister. actually gave me a a physical copy and. and I man I wept, I laughed. Uh I. smiled. I just you did a really great. job and I'm telling you, man, the Lord. speaks through people through this book. that he he actually does. >> Yeah, Walker, I have binged on your.

music the last few weeks. Uh, and I have. I have wondered where does this guy get. the ability to write lyrics the way that. he writes. I just assume that you are a. verbivore. You read all the time. Maybe. not, but I cannot tell you what a. wonderful songwriter you are. And your. love for people, your love for your. family, your love for Christ. All of. that comes through in your music. But. the honesty of it and the authenticity. of it is such an appealing part of what. you do. Keep it up. Well, listen, you're.

you're so kind and that that what you. just said reminds me, Oprah, too, is is. >> this book, it makes you think of the. theos in your life. You know, there. there's many people that I called after. this book. And I said, I would like you. to read this book because you were this. person to me. you were attentive to me. when I did not think I was worthy of. being attentive to, you know, and and. obviously that makes me want to do that,

you know, for for other people, but. yeah, someone told me a long time ago, our attention is our greatest asset. And. sadly, that's not how I naturally wake. up. I naturally wake up and say, what do. I need to get done today? What what's on. my agenda? But honestly, thriving is. sharing life together, getting deep, sharing our griefs. Yeah. Oh my. goodness, I'm united in grief with so. many friends that I'll know till I die. And this book reminded me of those.

people who were brave enough to walk up. to me when I was when I was a leper, you. know, and say, "Hey, man, I see good in. you. I see sadness. I see this." They. looked at me like a flower, you know, and that's what Theo did. And uh Allan, just man, the feeling's mutual. We gotta. hang out. >> Oh, I would love it. I would love it. Tell your daughter I'm trying to learn. the dance steps. [laughter]. >> Okay. >> And make sure you tell Laney that she is. a hero for taking care of you and all.

those youngans, >> right? >> She is. She is. She is. >> I I I heard that one of your favorite. passages from the book is most people. will die with all of their songs still. inside them. >> Yes. Uh for for me personally. that that hit me, you know, I was very, you know, I I've I've been in Nashville. 21 years and there there's no nothing. says stay, you know, and keep doing. this. There's not, you know, Allan, you've been a songwriter. You understand. what I'm saying? And uh and so that that.

quote hit me. But can I mention another. quote? Is it okay? >> Yeah, you can mention anything. Go. ahead. I gotta tell you, there was a. there's a quote, Allan, that just. crushed me and I'm gonna I'm gonna cry. when I say it, but Ellen in the book, she looks she looks Theo in the face, you know, she's all dressed up. I'm not. going to spoil it. I promise. Yeah. >> And she says, "Do you think I'm nice?". >> "Am I making a good first impression?". And I just I was like, you know,

>> that's everybody, you know, everybody. that that's making something or doing. something, >> you just want somebody to put it on the. fridge, man. You know, and and and we. are God God is creative. Every single. person is creative. Yeah. And and you're. noticing that, Alan, like you didn't. even know you had this book in you, my. man. And uh. >> and it is a beautiful, beautiful book. that quote. I told my kids about that. I. said, you know, kids, >> I know that you wake up like this and I.

want you to know you are you you're. capable of saintlyhood there. You're. going to make mistakes, but my goodness, God loves you and so do I. And I'm going. to do the best I can to not choose me. and choose you as much as I can. Anyway, I could I'm sorry I babble on my. >> Hey, let me let me let me at least pay. you this compliment. It crossed my mind. the other night. I was driving home and. uh and was listening to your songs and I. thought, you know, if I didn't have the. dad that I do have, and I'm forever. grateful uh that AC Levi is my father. I.

love him. But if I could choose another. dad, >> it would be you and just seeing you with. your kids and the way that you engage. high school kids particularly in some of. your videos and whatnot. I do some work. with high school kids back home. >> and uh I love that you are investing uh. in in kids younger than you, obviously. and thank you. >> and pointing them to the truth. So, bless you for that. >> Thank you. Well, look, I'm I'm going to. make him read your book is what I'm. going to do, my man. >> He's going to sell you some more books. That's what he's going to do.

>> I'll buy them. I'll just give them. [laughter] to. >> Walker. Thank you so much. Appreciate. everything you said here today. Thank. you so much for Thank you for joining. us. >> Thank you, Walker. All the best. >> Congratulations on 17 problems. >> Oh, thank you very much. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Oprah. You're amazing. When I was speaking in Australia. recently, uh, speaking of favorite. quotes, I actually mentioned one of my. all-time favorite quotes from the book, one of my favorite quotes of the year. On page 119, you write, "For anything to.

be good, truly good, there must be love. in it." I'm not even sure I know fully. what that means, but the older I get, the more I believe it. There must be. love for the gift itself, love for the. subject being depicted or the story. being told, and love for the audience. Whether the art is sculpture, farming, teaching, law makingaking, medicine, music, or raising a child, if love is. not in it, at the very heart of it,

it might be skillful, marketable, or popular, but I doubt it is truly good. Nothing is. what it's supposed to be if love. is not at the core. >> It's true. And he's saying, "I'm not. sure I even know what that fully means, but the older I get, the more I believe. it.". >> For anything to be good, it has to have. love in it. >> You know, there's another way that that. has has been expressed in ancient.

literature. Uh if I speak in the tongues. of men and of angels, >> but have not love, I am only a. resounding gong or a clanging symbol. If. I have the gift of prophecy and can. fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move. mountains, but have not love, I am. nothing. If I give all I possess to the. poor and surrender my body to the. flames, but have not love, I gain. nothing. I think that was St. Paul's. attempt to say, "For anything to be. good, truly good, there must be love in.

it." It's the truth. >> That's right. There's a gift itself, but. it has to have love in it. And and you. know that's tricky to me Oprah because. it I think that if we accept that. premise as a rule for life. >> Yeah. >> Um which I have. We have to figure out. okay what is love and then how do we. live it out? And I think that the novel. for me as I look at it now was maybe an. attempt on my part to answer those. questions. What does it look like to. live a life of love? And so uh the fact.

that Theo does his bestows as quietly as. he can. You might remember there was a. scene when one of the characters says, "Why don't you just buy all 92 of them. and get it over with?". >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And for him that was defeating the whole. purpose of what he was doing. He wanted. to sit close enough to the person that. he could touch them. He could look them. in the eye. He could could read their. countenance. He could read the tone of. their voice. And he could listen. attentively just to them. If there had. been 92 people in the room, >> couldn't do it. >> Couldn't do it. But but doing it one at.

a time and listening very carefully to. what they said. That was the magic uh of. the whole thing. >> Okay. So, did you get up every morning. and write? Did you write sporadically? Did you did different characters come to. you while you're building the bird's. nest? Yeah. >> You know, writing as you probably know, I mean, once you get an idea in in mind, it was this way when I was writing. songs. The difference being that I could. write a song in three hours and a book. is going to take three years. But it. once once the story started going uh my.

mind was constantly on the story. But if. I got frustrated again because I had no. deadline. I had no expectation of. publishing anything. [laughter] I'd take. a month or two off and then pick it back. up. And finally when it started feeling. like a story, I said, "Okay, I'm going. to really finish this thing. I'm going. to hunker down and get it done." So, >> but you didn't have a ritual hour every. day like a lot of people do. >> Not so much. I I do now. And uh I've. always been a morning person. So most of. my work was done early in the day. I. love early morning. So it might be 3 or.

4:00 that I'm working. It might be 6 or. 7:00. But morning hours are when my mind. works best. >> Okay. We now have a record producer. I. don't know what is it about musician. We're record producer and songwriter. Claude Kelly joining us on Zoom from. London. >> Hello. >> Is it late at night or early morning? Anyway, thanks for staying up. >> A little bit of both. >> A little bit of both. And I hear you're. still on an emotional high from reading. this book. Tell us about that. >> This one? >> This one? >> You got me. >> You got you. >> They got me.

>> Good. Good. Good. >> I'm an uplift, but I cried. I cried. >> This book felt like fiction. It felt. like philosophy. It felt like a life. lesson in all the ways. I found this. book through Tik Tok. Tik Tok has been a. beautiful book community. And a dear. friend on Tik Tok read it and jumped on. immediately in tears. And I was like, if. it's making her cry, I got to go buy it. And as soon as I finished it, I jumped. on in tears cuz I had to share with. everybody.

>> I always say that books. and pets and music choose you. You don't. choose them. They choose you when it's. the right time. >> This book. >> at the end of 2025 was the perfect. >> reset for my life and for my new year in. all the ways. So, first of all, I have. to profoundly thank you for these words. >> and thank you for this platform just to. say thank you to both of you because. this book is top five of all time for. me. It's has a permanent space on my.

bookshelf. >> Oh, thank you. >> Nice. >> The words are they they jump off the. page and it's not just about the. fiction. It's about the depth of the. words in the story. >> That just blew me away in every way. >> Claude, I know you I know your history. I I have studied your work. And I know that especially early on, but. even now uh you are well known for the. lyrical content of of music that you. write and produce and uh coming from you. uh your compliments about the book uh.

they they carry great weight. But I'm. curious, have you often read to improve. your your writing skills as a a. songwriter and producer? >> Reading is what informs my songwriting. I read at least 8 to 12 books a month. >> just to live in other people's shoes. Yeah. >> And maintain empathy. >> so I can tell stories that are outside. of my own experience. I write a lot for. women. I write a lot for people that. don't look like me. And to do that, you. have to understand and be open, >> right? >> And so reading is a big part of my.

career, but also my personal life. Uh so. I'm always looking for ways to. understand the human condition better. >> Yeah. Uh, and every book teaches me. something new. They all don't work, but. this one worked a little bit too well. >> I love what you're saying, Todd. I I. love what you're saying about uh you're. reading to understand the human. condition. And that's what I felt with. every person that sat on that bench with. with him. We were learning something. about their particular human condition.

And it also I I I'm sure it did this for. you too, as it did for me. It made you. think about everybody you encounter. It's just like what Walker was saying. earlier. Everybody you encounter, you. feel like you want to give them more. attention, pay more attention to their. story because of what Theo is doing in. this story. >> Yeah. >> Even more than attention, it reminded me. to give everybody grace. >> Ah, even better. Even better. >> What people are going through, both good. and bad, what their history is. And if I.

can go even deeper than that, the word I. I was easedropping. You talked about the. word river, but the word that kept. popping up for me, which is such a. simple word, is the word good. >> Yeah. >> And the word that. >> I'm going to cry now. The word, it's a. word that [clears throat] both tortures. me and fuels me because. >> it's a simple word, but I'm always. asking myself, >> what does it mean? Am I being a good. man, a good citizen, a good son, a good. friend, a good musician? Yeah.

>> And I'm not sure there's a a right. answer for it. >> Yeah. But there were so many profound. quotes in this book about what goodness. means as it pertains to art and. friendship and support. >> Yeah. >> Can I read a quote? Is that is it okay. if I do? I wish you would. Thank you. >> Goodness. Around the same part about. about what uh there must be love in it. Right before that, it says it's hard. enough to define what art is, much less. good art. But I guess if a work of art. makes us see something familiar in a new. way or makes us feel something we ought.

to have felt all along or shows us our. place in the world more clearly, maybe. then it qualifies as good. >> Yeah. >> And as a songwriter who's always putting. myself out there, which is very scary. You know this. >> Um I'm always wondering, am I doing this. right? Are people going to receive it? Am I even good at this thing? >> Yeah. And it was so comforting to know. that the process of just trying to. relate to people makes you good enough.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know, Claude, it's interesting uh to. write about goodness. Tony Morrison says. it is much more difficult to write about. goodness than than evil. >> Yeah. >> And she she talks about how it takes. like a fully developed competent adult. to write about goodness. But I was. reluctant to write about that as much as. I did in the book because I think we. have become so cynical. >> by nature that when we write about. goodness, kindness, uh there just these. defenses that that go up. Yeah. But I'm.

really glad that you gravitated to that. We talked about another quote just a. minute ago uh that most people die with. all of their music, their songs still in. them. Can I commend you for being one. who will not do that? You you you are. getting your music out. You're. exploring. you're pushing the. boundaries, uh, all of that and and. thank you for doing that. Maya Angelou, she talks about song the song bird. >> Yeah. >> We don't we don't the song bird doesn't. sing the song because it has the. answers,

>> but because it has the song. >> and sometimes I think maybe the songs. that you write, we don't know how people. will interpret them or how they're going. to hit a heart. But thank you for what. you do. It's brilliant. That means the. world to me because you just don't know. who you're reaching. What I know for. sure is that my goal when I write is. that it'll bless somebody. Oprah, at the. beginning you said this book was the. bomb. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's how I. >> cuz it's it's medicine, you know. It's. medicine for the creator as they make.

it. It heals you first hopefully. And. then if it heals you first, you know the. medicine works. >> Amen. Good. >> Amen. Amen. Thank you, >> Cloud. What a privilege. >> Thanks for staying up to talk to us. Yeah, >> anytime. Thank you. >> Anytime. Anytime. All the way from. London. Thank you so much. Thanks, Claude. There's such a beautiful uh. spiritual thread through this book that. that you all will find that is not. preachy. Rather, it's about as we were. talking about here, caring for other. people about hope and the willingness to.

be generous without having an agenda. Yeah. >> It feels like Theo Golden was shaped by. your own beliefs of goodness. >> and seeking that for yourself. >> and what you felt about hope and beauty, >> right? >> Was it? >> Oh, yeah. No doubt. No doubt. Oprah, I. think it's fair to say that everything. that I've done creatively has been an. expression of my faith. I hope that. everything I do every day is an. expression of faith. I think you and I. would share that that view that. everything we do Yes. >> is an expression of what's deep down in. the well. It's coming out of your love.

of yourself and love of God and God's. love for you. >> Exactly. And so, yeah, uh everything. everything about the book uh is just an. attempt on my part really to articulate. even for myself uh what I believe to be. true. Uh but I hope that you know. someone else can read. I got the most. interesting uh email this morning. >> What. >> and I don't get many uh I I don't use. media very much. I don't read any. reviews. I don't engage with any social. media. But every now and then my niece. will send me a message. She sent me one. this morning from um from a woman and.

she had read the book. Uh she said, "I'm. 71 years old. I've never written to an. author before." And she said, "Because. of child uh trauma in my life," she. said, "I am an atheist." She said, "I. just I just don't buy into to the God. thing." Uh but she said, "The book. really spoke to my heart." and she said, uh, I just wanted you to know that the. book touched a life from someone not in. your intended audience. And I would like.

to make clear that my intended audience. is every person that stands up or can. read a book. Uh, no no walls, no. barriers. The book was never meant to. meant to be for a select group of. people. I hope everybody will read it. and be blessed by it. >> Well, how did you feel about getting. that particular email? I was very. gratified and I will respond to that. one. Uh maybe she and I will become. friends. I don't know. But yeah, it's. really gratifying to know that that.

goodness. >> Yes. >> Uh to Claude's point, uh goodness, kindness, those are universals. God has. hardwired that into every one of us. I. think it gets beat out of us. Yeah. >> And maybe because of trauma, uh we we. lose our ability to access that on our. own or to receive it or to receive it. and accept it. But. >> that's what we loved about the character. Theo and Theo of Golden is that every. character comes to him with a different. background. >> I don't know who was atheist or who. believed in God or who didn't. >> Right?

>> But he was accepting of every one of. them without any judgment. >> Right. >> Which is. how we try to live, how we try to live, but most of us don't succeed. >> And that's what Jesus was about. >> Yeah. >> I mean, okay, you got that sorted path. Please come let me welcome you. >> Yeah. Uh like like Walker was saying, the that whole idea of being adopted, Theo would adopt anybody that would sit. at the other end of the bench with him. >> May I say that ending I couldn't even. believe it. I You knew that ending was. coming though. I did.

>> You did? >> Yeah. And I had been criticized mightily. for it, but uh it had to happen. It had. to happen the way that it happened. >> I tried to work I tried to work other. endings to get to the same very end of. the book, but none of them worked. And. and you've heard said that good art. makes us feel something. I knew that, you know, that part of the book was. going to make people feel something. deeply. I can live with that. I like. that. >> You can live with it. >> I can live with that. >> Okay. Host and designer Tamara Day from. the hit show Bargain Mansions is joining.

us from our home in in Kansas. Tamara, how did the book impact you? >> Oh, well, it it's been incredible. Well, I I feel like one I want to thank you. for hosting this and I get the benefit. of being at the end of of this lovely. hour and I didn't think I could adore. you any more than I do. Uh already did, but now Ellen, you've just you you've. touched my heart in a whole new way than. I even expected. >> Um the book was such a meaningful book.

for me at such a meaningful time. And um. I think for me right now as a a mom. turning 50 and having four kids, two of. them out of the house and one of them. getting ready to leave the home. My my. biggest takeaway is that I want them to. be a bit of Theo in the world. Yeah. >> But I hope that they go into the world. and find somebody that's a Theo. >> and um that they get they get to receive. and give that. I love the quote that you.

said. There was Theo before Lisbon and. after Lisbon. >> and I feel like I am Tamara before Theo. >> and really. >> Thank you. >> Wow. Wow. Wow. >> It's just so beautiful in so many ways. >> Yeah. >> Tamara, did it did it ever strike you. that what you do is exactly what what. Theo did with people. You you happen to. do it with structures. But I thought I. think there's such an interesting. parallel between what Tamara does with.

these these structures that just need. someone to love them. You adopt them. >> You can see beyond the shell. You can. see the potential that's hidden behind. the boards. And uh and you do this. wonderful reconfiguration that turns. into beauty. That's exactly what Theo. did. And you do that obviously with your. family. I've I've read a lot of what you. have on online. Yeah. Especially about. your son who recently graduated, I. think. Uh but you and Bill have done. such a wonderful job with your family. and uh that that's a blessing to all who.

know what you do out there. >> Thank you. I really appreciate that so. much. I I think that there there's value. in every home that I I work on and. there's value in every person. That's. what I think I learned so much in Theo. is that there is so much value and. potential and every person. >> Yeah. >> And like Oprah said, I don't think. everyone feels seen in life. And this. really gave me an opportunity to look. and say everybody is going through a. sadness, >> right, >> and a joy and just look a little deeper.

>> Yeah. Yeah, that's good. >> Thank you, Tamara. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us. >> I know. I feel the same way. I I mean I. I we love the book. I've read a lot. about Alan Levi and his whole story and. then you meet him and it's like, wow, this guy is the real deal. >> The real deal. Thank you. >> Thank you, Tamara. Likewise. My love to. Bill. >> Thank you. >> So Theo observes a sadness as we were. just talking about with Tamara uh about. this joy and sadness and you write on.

page 214, it is another of life's great. mysteries that sadness and joy can. coexist so compatibly with one another. And there is the beautiful possibility. that great love can grow out of sadness. if it is well tended. Sadness can make. us bitter or wise. We get to choose. What does it look like for sadness to be. well attended? Do you think, Alan? >> Yeah. I think we have to prepare for. tending it well before we ever get. there.

>> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? >> I do know what you mean. >> I mean, we know it's coming. >> You know what's coming. >> We know what's coming. I mean, Theo was. 86 when the story began. And by then, no. one uh could have lived eight decades. and not been hurt deeply. All of us, all. of us have to deal with it. Uh, one of. the reasons that I included that and it. was actually late in the writing oper. because I wanted uh for people to come. away with the impression that this story. is about the world that I know and all. of us live in a world where there is is. sadness. But I think to be able to say,

okay, this is part of uh the human. experience. It doesn't have to undo me. Often times it does, at least for a. season. But I can prepare for this and I. can love myself through this experience. I can accept the love of God through. this experience and I can share it with. others. Uh and of course when we hurt. and survive then it just opens the door. for us to help others when they go. through the same thing and we can can. look at our experience. >> That's what I think that's what our our. surviving and hurting is all about is is. turning it into um something useful for.

other people being able to use it to. share which is what you've done. throughout this book. You know, a lot of. people listening to us right now, a lot. of you have been either read Theo of. Golden. And as our our guest today felt. something profound. uh or you were called to be more. thoughtful or kind or generous seeing. one another uh in a way that you hadn't. before and now we'll be moved to read it. hopefully if you have not. But if you.

could have everyone understand one truth. from this book, what would it be? it. would be the one that you've already. mentioned. >> Yeah. >> That if we are going to live our lives. well, >> uh we have to pray that it all comes. from a well of love that can only come. from God to us. >> Yeah. >> You know, there was a time that a lawyer. asked Jesus a question and he said, "What is the great commandment?" And. there were there were hundreds that he. could have chosen from, but very quickly. he responded, >> "Love God with heart, soul, mind, and. strength. Love your neighbor as.

yourself. All of the law and the. prophets hang on these commandments.". Yeah. And that is what life is about. Sometimes it's hard to know whether. we're doing it well or not. >> Yeah. >> And we have to define it. We have to. figure out what it looks like. If I'm an. insurance salesman, uh a teacher, a. stay-at-home mom, a pastor, a brick. layer, uh love looks different in those. different settings. But at the end of. the day, I think we all want to be able. honestly put our head on the pillow and. say, "I loved well today." And. >> I think at the end of our lives, it. would be nice if if we could say, "Lord,

I didn't do it perfectly, but my aim in. life was to love." And Oprah Winfrey, you do that in a way that makes the rest. of us envious. Your story is so well. known. Uh but the thing that enders so. many people to you is behind all of your. expertise and your professionalism, your. heart explodes with with with love for. people, love for God. I listened to part. of your story the other night, a hard. part of your story where you said that.

uh during those hard times, it was God. your father and Jesus your brother who. held you up. Absolutely. And that comes. through in so much everything that you. do. So in behalf of so many millions of. people, I just want to say thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for what you do. >> Thank you for that. You know, we have. never had a guest here on television in. all the years do for our Zoom readers. what you just did for everybody, making. them feel so seen. Just like just like. Theo.

>> Just like Theo. >> I hope you do it. You do it every day. >> Well, so thank you. >> Thank you. Well, you're someone who's. absolutely paid attention to your own. life and to to the human condition. I. wonder what what is your definition of a. well-lived life? You seem to have one. >> Mhm. >> But what how would you define. a a a well-lived life? >> Okay, I I will repeat myself. Uh a life. lived in deference or submission to the. idea that we we honor God and love.

people well. And every day our mission. is that uh honor God, love people well. Uh a life well-lived is one where we. look beyond our own needs, our own. preferences. Uh we accept others where. they are asking nothing and without. condition. And uh to to go back to what. Walker was saying, we adopt we. illuminate the lives of others by the. way that we love them. Um if we could do. that well, I'm sure the the world would. look a lot different uh than it does.

now. Yeah. >> What would you say? Can I ask you that. question? >> Uh what does a a life well-lived look. like? >> I think a life well-lived is a life. understanding. uh what I was saying earlier that you. are connected to to a source that we. call God. >> that's greater than you that that source. is a part of you living thriving above. above around and through you in all. ways. and that your goal in life is to.

exemplify as closely as you can the. teachings and the the the the love that. is offered from your creator God. [clears throat]. >> Yeah. Amen. >> Yeah. And a well-lived life is when you. can do that in such a way that you. benefit but everyone else benefits also. >> Exactly. Exactly. [clears throat] Good. Theo did that in the story, right? >> Yes, he did. And I think I think if. anyone asked the old man. >> uh if he thought he enjoyed it more or.

the recipients of the bestows, he would. have said no one enjoyed this more than. me. It's that idea that that it's more. blessed to give than to receive that. really works. >> Yeah, I I and I do believe that too. Yeah, I do believe that too, as I know. you do. >> I do. >> And I know many of you listening will be. pleased to hear that Allan is writing a. sequel titled Ellen of Golden. >> Yes, indeed. [laughter]. How far along are you and what can. readers expect? >> I have had my teeth in it for a while, but uh I've I've got a a lot yet to do.

She's been a difficult character to. wrestle to the mat. >> She still had that bicycle. >> She's still got the noble invention and. [laughter] she she is really a beautiful. character, but the story will be. different. I don't think I'm I'm tipping. my hand in any way by saying this. She. she's homeless. >> and she's very bright. She is very well. read. And I've I've got to explain how. does someone with that sort of erudition. uh also have that sort of eccentricity. and she's had a hard life and so the.

story line will be a bit different. >> Yeah. >> And the tone of the story at least for a. good portion of the text will be a bit. different than Theo. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And are you having is is it coming easy. to you? Is it challenging? >> Oh, it's so hard. And and Oprah, here's. why. >> I think it's kind of like what Claude. was saying. >> Yeah. Uh there was no expectation on the. first book. I wasn't trying to please. anybody. I was just trying to prove to. myself I could write a book. And now. there are a lot of people that have read. Theo who have read Theo and they're.

probably expecting. >> There's an expectation. >> Oh. Yeah. It's really hard. It's really. hard. But. >> cuz you're no longer just writing for. yourself. You definitely are not and you. know it. That's right. >> And you have a bestseller list to prove. it. >> Yeah. But I'm loving it. I will say that. you. >> I still I still the characters all jump. into bed with me at night. They are. living with me 24 hours. >> You write uh do you write longhand or. you write computer? >> I'm old school. You're old school. It's. all longhand. I type it up and do do my. edits in longhand. Very inefficient way. to write, but I I can't write any other. way. I'm I'm a dinosaur.

>> That's that old attorney in you. >> It is. It is. It is. >> coming through. >> Well, y'all, Theo Golden is out now and. it's available wherever books are sold. And I thank you for this really. magnetic, magnificent story and for the. reminder that really every life is worth. noticing, is worth being attentive to. >> Ideally, >> and as Claude said, offering grace to. >> Yeah. >> And I hope our conversation today in. this beautiful book inspires you all to. find your Theo within. Thank you, Alan.

Levi. >> Thank you for. >> coming all the way to my porch. >> I love it. [snorts] Thank you. >> Thank you, Walker. And thank you, uh, Claude and Tamara, for zooming in. We'll. see you next week, everybody. Go well. If you're looking for a story that's. going to warm your heart, I know for. [music] sure. Oh my goodness, you're. going to love Theo of Golden. The QR. code to buy it is right there on your. screen. It's as easy as easy can be. It's a novel that's centered on. kindness, [music]. connection, and the extraordinary impact.

that one person can have on a community. I know so many people who've read it and. feel [music]. that their life has been enhanced by the. reading of it. This book stays with you. long after this last page [music] and. you can buy it right now. Scan the QR. code on your screen. It's so easy. And. happy summer reading. Enjoy it and then. pass it [music] on. Our listeners tell. us that the podcast is resonating with. you and is [music] serving as a bright.

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