When Your Kids Won’t Put Their Phones Down, with Oprah & Addiction Specialist Dr. Anna Lembke

Your child's device is a drug to them. [music] And so trying to remove the drug. is like your child is in the midst of. taking that drug and you're trying. [music] to take the drug away from them. and you're going to have, you know, meltdowns. >> [crying and screaming]. >> You say smartphone is the modern-day. hypodermic [music] needle delivering. digital dopamine 24/7. We are living in an unprecedented time. of overwhelming abundance where we've.

drugified almost every human experience. Hello and a warm welcome to you. Thanks. for being with me here on the Oprah. podcast. Recently, I saw this headline. in The New York Times. America's. children are unwell. The Washington Post. declared managing technology has become. an overwhelming part of modern. parenting. And I bet that resonates with a lot of. you. So, I wanted to dive deeper into.

tech addiction in children because I. know that this is not just a headline. amidst the hundreds of bits of bad news. that we're inundated with every day. I. got a call from one of my cousins in. Jackson, Mississippi who watches the. podcast and saw our episode on Gen Z. tech addiction. And she said that when. she uh tried to take away her child's. device, her child became so violent that. she was really shaking up about it and.

really so concerned and asked me, "What am I supposed to do?" And that's. why I invited Dr. Anna Lembke here to be. here. She's a psychiatrist and chief of. the Stanford Addiction Medicine Dual. Diagnosis Clinic. That's a lot to say. >> a mouthful. But her New York Times. best-seller Dopamine Nation, Finding. Balance in the Age of Indulgence, has.

sold over 1.5 million copies, and. there's a reason for that, because it's. resonating. It's resonating with. parents, it's resonating with people. who've suffered from. addiction themselves, it's resonating. with people who are concerned about. where we are in our culture and where. we're going. I encourage you to read. Dopamine Nation, if you haven't yet, cuz it's extremely. eye-opening, especially especially if. you are a parent. That's what I told my.

my my cousin, you got to get Dopamine. Nation so that you understand what's. actually happening to your child. So, when you're. they're screaming and you're screaming, nobody's going to get anywhere. Well, you know what I said to her? I said it's. like if your child was shooting heroin. and you went up and took a needle from. your child in the moment that they were. going to shoot the heroin, do you think. they'd curse you out? Do you think. there'd be a fight? And she went, "Whoa." But, it's kind of like that, isn't it, Dr. Lembke? Yeah, I think it's. a great reframe because.

unless we're thinking about digital. media as a drug, we're not going to. appreciate the extent to which. we and our children lose agency in terms. of our ability to change the behaviors. >> you need to repeat that sentence. Unless. you're thinking about digital media as a. drug, >> Right. yes. Yeah, I mean, >> It's a drug. >> It really is a drug. It's incredibly. reinforcing for our brains. It activates.

the same reward pathway as drugs and. alcohol. And for people who are uniquely. vulnerable to digital drugs, it can really lead to life-threatening. addictions. And I think this is a really. important point that I want to make. upfront that we're all wired a little. bit differently. Mhm. And so each person. has a different potential drug of.

choice, right? Based on their unique For. For some people, it's food. >> Mine was food. >> Okay. For some people, it's romance. novels. That That That's what was mine, you know, and that sounds silly, but I. actually did develop a, you know, a kind. of addiction to this genre. For some. people, it's alcohol, cannabis, and for. some people, it it really is social. media, online shopping, adult content, video games, whatever it is. And when we encounter. whatever that digital drug is, it's just.

we are very susceptible to getting. caught in that compulsive. overconsumption loop. >> So parents who can't get their kids to. put the phone down, to put the iPad. down, need to know that what you're. asking them is to put the drug down. That's exactly right, to really. conceptualize. digital media as a potent drug, and to think about, you know, protecting. their child from it. I I think a good.

analogy for digital media is actually. processed food. So for example, most. parents would not feed their kid ice. cream for breakfast, and yet many. parents are fine letting their kid, even. a very young child, hold the phone at. the breakfast table. I think when we. think about it that way, there there are. occasions when you would give your child. ice cream or chocolate cake or what have. you, but you wouldn't just let them have. it whenever they want it all day long. >> Yeah. So Jonathan Haidt, who wrote The.

Anxious Generation, you've seen him here. on this podcast, he's done a lot to. bring attention to what social media, what those devices are doing to our. children's minds. He asked ChatGPT, "If. you were the devil, how would you. destroy the next generation without them. knowing it? And he wrote about this for. an article in the free press. Chat GPT's. answer was, "If I were the devil, I'd. destroy the next generation not by.

terror or violence, but by distraction, disconnection, and slow erosion of. meaning. They wouldn't even notice. because it would feel like freedom and. entertainment." Wow. How do you see it. as fueling these addictions? I think. this idea that we're sort of. entertaining ourselves to death, and. there's in fact a famous older book. called Amusing Ourselves to Death by by. Neil Postman, is is really does capture it well. It's. very subtle and insidious. It seems.

harmless. In the moment, it feels good, but it's the cumulative effect over time. that really adversely impacts our. well-being, our mental health, and truly. our ability to connect to other people. I mean, social media in in particular. essentially takes our innate need and. desire to connect with other people and. distills it down to its most addictive.

elements. So, that for very little. upfront work, all we have to do is swipe. right, swipe left, and it creates this. illusion of connection even when real. connection is not happening. Because. real connection with other humans is. effortful, right? We have to go out and. find the humans. We have to, you know, compromise. There's give and take. There's going to be conflict. There's. frustration. But digital media and. social media in particular removes all. of that. So, it's just this seamless. experience where we feel like we're.

connected. >> who's calling you so you can answer or. not answer. >> Right, or you get the likes or the. friends or the followers, you know, the. comments. It it's It's this this. trance-like state that we can get in. where it just feels so good like with. any drug. Mhm. But, you know, afterwards. there's this comedown and over the long. run we're not really pursuing our goals, which with social media is nominally to. connect with other humans. One of the. reasons this book is so powerful even.

from the very first page in the. introduction, you say, "Because we've. transformed the world from a place of. scarcity to a place of overwhelming. abundance. Drugs, food, news, gambling, shopping, gaming, texting, sexing, Facebooking, Instagramming, YouTubing, tweeting. The increased numbers, variety, and potency of highly rewarding. stimuli today is staggering. It really. is staggering. The smartphone, this is. why I loved that you said at the very. beginning, the smartphone is the modern-day.

hypodermic needle, delivering digital dopamine 24/7. for a wired generation. And if you. haven't met your drug of choice yet, it's coming soon to a website near you.". Wow. That's how bad we are right now. We are. living in an unprecedented time of. overwhelming abundance where we've. drugified almost every human experience. The food we eat, the games we play, the.

way that we connect with other people. And as such, we've all become more. vulnerable to this problem of addiction. And I always like to sort of upfront. define addiction for folks. >> Please do. It's the continued compulsive. use of a substance or behavior despite. harm to self and or others. And. importantly, sometimes we can see the. harm and sometimes we can't. And it is a brain disease. I think. that's really important to communicate. to folks the disease model of addiction.

We're not at a place yet where we can. use brain scans or blood tests to. diagnose addiction. We we base the. diagnosis on phenomenology or patterns. of behavior, often what we call the four. C's, out of control use, craving, compulsive use, and continued use. despite consequences. Um but it's a very recognizable behavior. when we see it, especially in its most. extreme forms. And we're living in an. addictogenic world where not only do we.

have more access to drugs that have been. around for thousands of years, but we. have drugs that never existed before, right? All of the digital drugs, drugified food, right? We have a food. supply with the addition of fat, salt, sugar, flavorants, processed food. So. that not only are we getting calories. when we eat, we're getting hits of. dopamine that make it very difficult to. stop even when we've reached our natural. satiety point. And that's true for.

almost everything now, including, importantly for this discussion, digital. media. >> That's why, you know, what we're going. to discuss here, I think, very. important, but. you have to read the book in order to. understand what's happening to your. brain and your child's brain, you know, with with social media and with the. devices. I want to show a piece of tape. now that we put together. Take a look at. this. >> [crying]. [laughter]. [screaming].

[crying]. >> You have school tomorrow, right? >> [screaming]. >> YOU HAVE SCHOOL TO. YOU HAVE. >> [screaming]. [crying]. >> OH, MAN. THAT'S REALLY HARD TO WATCH. SO, my cousin said the same thing. happened with her 17-year-old. Yeah.

Tried to take the phone away. He was in the middle of a gaming session. and cursing her out and all those. things. What is happening in the brain. when. a child is experiencing those kinds of. tantrums, a child, a teenager, or a. young adult? What's what's going on in. the brain in that moment? >> When you expose a child's brain to a. digital drug that is incredibly. reinforcing,

it is inevitable that that child will. get into this loop of addiction where. they get into a state of craving and. withdrawal when they don't have their. drug. So, when I see these kids and the. extent to which they're emotionally. dysregulated when they don't Yeah, that's. >> That's what's happening. Yeah. >> Dysregulation. >> Yeah, yeah. They're They're They're in. withdrawal, right? I mean, they're in. withdrawal. They're afraid because now. they've basically become dependent on.

this On the dopamine, on the hit. >> That's right. In order to manage their. everyday lives, right? To to manage. anxiety or depression or loneliness. But. even separate from that, once our brains. are repeatedly exposed to any. reinforcing substance or behavior, we essentially adapt to that reinforcer. such that over time we need more in. order to feel the same response. And And. when we're not getting it, we are. literally in withdrawal. And the.

universal symptoms of withdrawal from. any substance or behavior are anxiety, irritability, insomnia, depression, and. craving for that drug. Yes. >> So, again, I I I see these these kids. and I I feel I really feel like. >> spoiled. >> spoiled. That's That's the point. >> They're addicted and they're really. victims of. >> They're suffering in that moment. >> They're They're suffering. So, based upon what we've shared here so. far,

when you are trying to communicate with. a child who is dysregulated, you. absolutely cannot Right. And so, you. have to wait until that child gets. regulated or calm calms down. >> right. >> Have we even explained to people what. dopamine is? Not yet. >> We're assuming that everybody knows what. dopamine is. But, tell us what dopamine. is. >> So, dopamine is a chemical that we make. in our brains. It is what's called a. neurotransmitter. And neurotransmitters are the molecules.

that bridge the gap between neurons. So, neurons are these long spindly cells. They're like wires in our brains that. conduct these electrical circuits that. make us who we are. And those neurons. don't actually touch end to end. There's. a little gap between them, and that gap. is called the synapse. Neurotransmitters are the molecules that. bridge that gap that allow for. fine-tuned control of those electrical. circuits. Dopamine is one of many brain. neurotransmitters. It's essential for. the experience of pleasure, reward, and.

motivation. It's also, as I mentioned. before, very important to movement. And. it's probably no coincidence that the. same molecule that's important for. getting our rewards that we need to. survive is also important for movement. because you know, for most of our. existence, we had to move our bodies to. go get a berry bush or get a deer. >> why exercise is so so important. That's. why exercise just. really resolves a lot of these issues. >> Yes. Because if you can move, if you're. outside, if you're.

>> Right. >> walking, even just a. as you say, it's just a even just a. walk, 30-minute walk. >> Yes. Yes. >> can change the dopamine in your brain. >> Yes. Yes. Exercise is a super healthy. source of dopamine, and it also, importantly, reintegrates the function. of dopamine for movement as the function. of dopamine to go and get our rewards. >> And this is what everybody who's. listening and watching us needs to know, that we're talking about your kids, but. it's also you get your little dopamine. hit every time you get a little like or.

you get a comment that says something. flattering to you. Yes. >> Or just watching short-form video, right? Watching those short-form videos. That will absolutely light up that. reward pathway, releases dopamine, and. the difference between things that are. addictive for a given individual. um is that they release a lot of. dopamine all at once. So, we're always. releasing dopamine at a baseline tonic. level in our reward pathway. When we eat. something or smoke something or drink. something or go on digital media, that.

temporarily increases dopamine firing. above baseline along with other, you. know, chemical changes. >> Yeah. >> Right. Well, yes. We always want to go. back to our set point, right? Or our. homeostatic baseline. But, what happens. is that through that process of the. brain adapting to that temporary. increase in dopamine firing, that's that. essentially what can happen with. addiction is that the brain over adapts, over compensates, and ends up in a.

chronic dopamine deficit state. So, now. we have below healthy levels of dopamine. firing in the reward pathway. And when. we get into that state, now we need to. keep using our drug not to get high, but. just to bring those levels back up to. normal and feel normal. >> Yeah, and feel okay. That's what the. kids on the iPads are trying to do. >> right. That's exactly right. Well, we. have a lot of moms with questions who. recognize that they're in trouble, I. think, but also don't know what to do.

Eda is a mom of two girls in. Massachusetts. Welcome, Eda. Tell us. what's going on with you. Hi, Oprah. Hi, Dr. Lumkey. Thank you for having me. So, I have two girls. They're 10 and 3. Most. concerning is my 10-year-old. She has an. iPad. A lot of her friends have phones. We are not quite there yet in that. department, but um, she definitely uses. her iPad a lot more frequently than I. would like. Usually right after school,

it's her go-to, and she prefers to be on. it all day. Um, it ends up being a. battle when we get home from school. about you need to do your homework. It's. not iPad time. She does have her moments. of, you know, getting upset, throwing a. tantrum, being resistant to having the. iPad being taken away, and it's more. worrisome during the weekend. And she. will use that tool also for transitions. like in the car, for going to any of her. activities after school, like cheer.

practice or whatnot. So, it After. hearing you talk for a bit, it seems. like she's using this as an emotional. tool um, to cope. Um, so and when it is taken away from her, she's quite anxious. So, um, part of me is wondering, is she. showing signs of addiction? Um, and then. my another part of my question is I my. 3-year-old has had some exposure with an. iPad, but not to the extent that my. 10-year-old has.

Um, so my other question is, um, how do. I avoid what's happening to the. 10-year-old to not happen to the. 3-year-old? Okay, great. Well, thank you. for being willing to, you know, share. something about your experiences. You're. certainly not alone. Um, I think most. parents are struggling with this in some. form or another. Um, I was interested that initially you. sort of framed giving your daughter an. iPad as if it were maybe less addictive.

than the phone, yes, but I would say. that's not really the case. Any device. that gives that child that kind of. visual and audio stimulation and has. access to the internet where they can. see an infinite number of videos. including by the way videos that you. probably would be horrified to know she. was watching. Okay, so I think this is a. really important piece that Yeah, people. think if it's not the phone that the. that that the iPad is better. >> Yeah, that's something people say. or even that they know what their kid is.

doing or what the internet because the. internet will push to your child stuff. that they're not even looking for and. haven't even considered. So, that's the one thing. The second thing. is. we always need to think of the age of. the child. 10 years old is still within. a frame an age range when you do have. control as a parent and and can do more. And what I would recommend first and and.

by the way, I'm contrasting that to. older teenagers where they're they're. out in the world. But with a. 10-year-old, here's what I recommend. You can sit down with a 10-year-old when. you're not disregulated and they're not. disregulated, you know, you're not. screaming at them to get off the iPad. and say, "You know what? We need to talk. about this as a family. This is a problem and you can describe. what you see, the way she gets. disregulated, the way she kind of uses. it as this transitional object which by. the way is a Freudian term to talk about.

how we do use an object to kind of get. us through emotional, you know, bumpy. patches. But I would just really have a very open. and transparent discussion and you can. even bring in your own struggles with. limiting, you know, your digital media. use cuz we're all struggling and I think. it's good for parents to be transparent. And then. and this should this should involve, you. know, your partner if you're raising her. together with a partner. It could even. involve the 3-year-old. I mean, it's. amazing what kids can understand. So, get the whole family together, sit down.

and say, "Hey, we care about each other. Our use of digital media is problematic. for our family individually and. collectively. Each person can go around and say what. they're observing, including asking your. daughter, "What What do you think? You. know, do you think this is a problem? What do you observe? What's good about. using the iPad? What What's not so good. about using the iPad?" And then I really. recommend a behavioral intervention for. the whole family that might actually. include.

getting rid of those devices for a. period of at least 4 weeks. Now, importantly, you don't want to The. The danger that that many parents made. I've made it myself is you're so upset, you just dive in and you grab the. devices away, the kid goes nuts like we. saw in those videos. You want to talk. about it, you want to plan it out, and. your kids She's not going to be happy. with it, but you need to really say this. comes from a place of love because I. love you, because we love you, and we. are observing signs and symptoms of a an.

addiction to the digital media or or. really just an unhealthy, you know, relationship, we're going to pull back. We're We're going to change things in. our home. I think this is This is the. key. You can We can make these changes. It's effortful, but it's worth the. effort. >> But But But But And also, what has to. happen, Eda, you have to watch what. you're doing with your phones and your. devices. You can't tell your kid you're.

off of it and you have a problem, and. then you're sitting at the table and. you're on the phone all the time, or. they're trying to talk to you and you're. distracted cuz you're on the phone. You. know, Absolutely. We need to model what. we want our parents what we want our. parents to do. >> you got to extract this behavior, you. got to model the behavior. >> it's And it's all about cultivating. a digital etiquette in the home. So, what are the appropriate times and. places for you to be on your device, for.

me to be on my device, like not at the. dinner table, not when we have guests. over, not in the bedroom, not late at. night. And Eda, it's hard, but again, with a 10-year-old, you can get in. there. And And And And And here's Here's. the other important thing, Eda, if you. feel you can't do it, it's just too. overwhelming, get some professional. help. Right? Get Get a mental health. care provider, and there are more and. more of them, thank goodness, responding. to the call, >> Yeah. who have expertise in this area,

who can come into the home and help you. make a behavioral plan. And then finally, I just want to add you. know, apropos Oprah, you're talking. about Eda needing to model. >> the behavior. >> need to change the environment. We. cannot rely on willpower alone when we. have an environment. >> Mhm. that is constantly inviting us to. use our drug of choice, whatever that. may be. So, if you've got screens in. every house, devices in every bedroom, you need to change that. You absolutely.

And you might even need to think about. limiting Wi-Fi to the house. Right? So, these are structural and environmental. changes. You can't just say some And not. that you would say this, "My kid's. spoiled." Or "Something's wrong with my. kid." The The disease process. of addiction that we're facing in the. world today lives in the space between. our brains and the environment that. we've created. So, we need to recognize. that biopsychosocial.

interactive piece. We can't expect. ourselves to stop the behavior when we. live in an environment that's constantly. inviting us to consume. Yeah, I'm. hearing about parents creating tech-free. pods with, you know, Right. landlines. >> Yeah, tech-free pods. A lot of young. people now are embracing older tech. They're getting film phone cameras, right? They're playing vinyl records. This is. Much of this is coming from Gen Z'ers. who themselves are recognizing that.

there's a problem. >> there's a problem, right? So, and that's. the other piece that actually I I one. more thing I have to say is so important. Oprah for Eda. The other thing Eda is you can't You. don't want to just take something away. without replacing it with something. that's better. So, of course your daughter is exhausted at. the end of the day. It's exhausting to. be a 10-year-old, right? But when she. comes home and she legitimately needs to. relax, you all need to come up with a. healthy way for her to do that. Maybe.

it's spending time talking with you or. doing crafts. Maybe it's joining a. sports team and decompressing by being. physically active. Movement is medicine, right? Dopamine is not only important. for reward, pleasure, and motivation, it's also important for movement and we. need to integrate those things. So, you. need to give her healthier alternatives. at the same time that you're going to. try to take away the iPad. >> So, she had asked the question, "Do you. think my child is showing signs of. addiction?" Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm I I I don't.

like to diagnose people who are not my. patients, but you know, what you're. describing is similar to the types of. of, you know, addiction to digital media that I do see. in clinical care. Does this sound Does this Does sound. reasonable to you? Yes, for sure. And I just it's it's. eye-opening as a mom. Yeah. And I mean I. feel like it's a a tactic that a lot of. people use. Like it's been a long day, we're all tired. Here's this device and.

here we go, but it's really not. beneficial for anybody. So, We're going. to send you this book so that you can. understand, okay? I think I I really do. think knowledge is power and I I do. think understanding the full scope of. what you're dealing with is going to be. really helpful to you. And I think that. what Dr. Limzy said is so important. 10. years old You can still get in there. There's still hope, you know. >> Yeah, well there are there's always. hope. I just want to say that's a. message I really want to get there's. always hope at every stage of life. But.

you as a parent There's always hope but. this was 17, 16 you you have a much much. harder time. Thank you Eda so much. I hope this was. helpful. >> Thank you. Thank you both. Yeah, nice to. meet you. Catherine is joining us from. Toronto. Catherine, what's going on with. your family? Hi. Hi ladies. Thank you for the work that. you do and Oprah of course such a big. fan. Thank you. >> So I have a 13-year-old and a. 10-year-old. My 13-year-old is my son. who I find that I have the biggest.

challenge with. He struggles a lot with impulse control. with his phone and even though when he. got his phone about a year and a half. ago we put a contract in place and we. adhere to it pretty well. Uh the last couple of years I've been. struggling with breast cancer and in. that time I was not able to monitor it. in the same way that I used to and I. think he started using his phone as an. emotional support buddy almost. And what I have found is that he is not.

able to self-regulate even around the. rules and even though he cognitively can. say, "Okay mom, I'm going to put it. down." he takes it up immediately like. an addiction like you were speaking. about. Um and I find it such a struggle. because now he's. bigger than I am. It's the only currency I have with him. to have some control but then he gets. aggressive and I'm not able to take it. away like I was able to even a year and.

a half ago and what I'm noticing. speaking to the addiction part that you. noted Dr. Limkey is that he's. manipulating and he's using different. strategies cognitively to justify his. behavior like oh I'm just looking. something up And "Oh, I'm doing some. research for school." And I really am. struggling to figure out what to do from. a conscious parenting lens. And I know. that you had children, you know, close. to my kids' age before. Like, what did. you do in your home to manage this?

Yeah. Oh, gosh, so much there. And I. wish I had better answers for you. Um, cuz what what you're describing is. really tough. And what a lot a lot of us. are dealing with. First of all, I I do. want to comment on. your struggles with cancer and how that. meant you were more preoccupied, less. able to, you know, be in there the way. you wanted to. And are you better now? Are you better? >> Yeah. I am, thank you. That's great.

>> good. But I mean, I think this is really. an important point that we blame. ourselves often as parents with these. issues. And yet, even like the perfect. parent with all of the time in the. world, it's still really, really hard. And then if on top of that, let's say. you're, you know, you're a single parent. or you have cancer or, you know, you're. working at double jobs or what. whatever's going on, then you have a. whole added layer where it's just I just. want to acknowledge really, really tough.

for parents, even very hard, you know, well-intentioned parents who really. care. So, your son, he's he 13 is that. cusp where it just starts to get really, really hard to. take the device away. Because kids get. manipulative, sneaky, you know, one of. the telltale signs of addiction is lying. about our use, whatever the drug is. >> Mhm. If we take the device away, they'll. often go and get another device or pay.

for one themselves or have friends. >> They're going to get Yeah. Yeah, that's. why our previous guest with the. 10-year-old, you were saying easier to. get in there at 10 Yeah. >> than 13. Okay. So, once you've entered. these teenage years where you sort of. got these these they're like living off. living their their own lives, that this is where open dialogue really. becomes core. Having again I I I emphasize with this. with Ena, but sitting down with him. again a time you're not disregulated, he's not disregulated, even schedule on.

the calendar, I want we want to have a. family meeting. I like to call it a. family meeting cuz it's like we're a. family. >> participate. >> Yeah. And and being in a family is hard. >> you know that your opinion matters and. you're contributing we're all. contributing to the whole. >> Yeah, that's right. We're all equal. partners. You sit around the table, you. get the whole family's and again it. starts with observation. Here is what I. am seeing. And one of the things that is. most notable and most distressing with. tech addiction. is the kind of.

antisocial. traits that come out in kids where they. basically are rude, right? They they. they treat parents badly, they they. manipulate, they're very self-involved. Now, some of that is characteristic of. being a teenager anyway, but it's really. much much worse when when kids get. caught up in this world. It's Parents. often talk about losing like that child. that they knew and this being a person. that they don't recognize and that's. true also with many other types of.

addictions. So, I would reflect back to. your son in particular the specific. unacceptable behaviors, his rudeness, his lateness, his not doing his chores, his his lying, his disrespecting. >> And and and talk about how it very well. very well may be linked to his. overdependence/addictive. use of digital media. And and what you can then do is again. advise him, This is done in a very.

loving way. This is done from a space of. love and not accusatory. Right. And then. and then what I'm getting to here is. setting boundaries. >> Yeah. Cuz you're doing it from this is. what I'm seeing. >> Yeah, this is what I'm seeing. Tell me. what you're seeing. >> Right, tell me what you're seeing. >> to. to who you used to be or what you used. to believe, yeah. >> then, you know, and elicit from him what. he what he's Again, this is a sort of a. We're saying that. And then the offer of. help. Would you like to get some help.

with this problem that that we're. observing? Would you like to see a. mental health counselor? What if he says. I don't I don't think I have a problem? >> probably will say that. >> Yeah. >> He will be But at least you've. identified that you see a problem, what. what you're observing, you've made the. offer of help. Maybe he doesn't want. help now, but maybe down. >> this idea too very much of saying you're. becoming someone like you were talking. about parents saying I don't recognize. my child. Right. >> Right. This This part of his personality. you don't even recognize. >> Right. So, I think your vulnerability.

and honesty as you're you're you're. offering here, Dr. Lemke, is going to be. very crucial to how the conversation. goes cuz he sees your your your honest. concern, right? >> Right. Your pain. and your desire for the whole family to. be whole. And I And I And I think. you've you've raised a good boy, so he. will respond to that if he's not in the. throes of being disregulated. Does this sound reasonable to you,

Catherine? >> and I just really wonder how much onus. and accountability can you give a. 13-year-old understanding that their. brain is not fully developed so that you. can break that cycle? Right. Yeah. I. mean, here's the thing. you know, Catherine, you as the parent. could always step in and say we're going. to take the phone away. Like what we. talked about with you that you you could. do that. And again, depending upon the. severity of his behaviors and you know, you know, I might even recommend that. you do that. So, I'm not saying you.

never do that, But, I don't like to just. talk about taking the devices away. because some parents are just simply not. in a circumstance where they're going to. be able to do that. So, that's where I. think at least opening up the dialogue. um you know, again, identifying. [clears throat] what you see that's. distressing, eliciting from him what he. thinks is problematic and. >> already already broken his word. He you. all had rules. You set out with rules, and he didn't honor the contract. Right. And that This is key. It Thinking about.

a family as something that requires a. mutual investment of all members of the. family who must abide by the family. expectations and rules. So, you know, even if you're not going to take the. phone away, you could say, "But, we. still expect you to do X, Y, and Z, to. show up, to talk with us you know, to. with the respect." And and then you. could even, you know, use what we call. contingency management. Contingency. management is well-known in the. addiction field to be a potential way to.

treat. It's essentially using. punishments and rewards to shape. behaviors. So, the way that we'll often. use contingency manage management in. this situation is say, "If you can meet. certain expectations, we expect you to. go to school, we expect you to do these. chores, we expect you to. you know, speak to us with respect, to. not have the device in the bedroom, to. not use the device." And if you're and. we'll give you a month to do that. And. if you're not able to do that, then we. are really dealing with a more serious. situation, and then we're we're going to. take you to see a mental health care. professional. We're going to consider,

you know, to actually taking the device. away. Yeah. Sounds reasonable. >> Thank you so much. Yes, beautiful. Thank. you so much. Thank you so much. Kelly is joining us from Massachusetts. Kelly, your story. Hi. Oh, I love the. warm fire. I love that. Hi. Um yes, so I. have um an 18-year-old son who's a. freshman in college. And you know, I. like you've already mentioned how it's a. tough age to manage this stuff. When he. was home, he was busy with school and. busy with sports and really didn't have.

much time. >> managing anything now. You're just a. consultant. Yeah. I'm not. >> [laughter]. >> He has so much more time on his hands. too with college only being, you know, an hour or two of class a day. He's not. playing sports in college. Um so he came. home from break and I was pretty shocked. at how much technology he was using. Like it was he's having a hard time. pulling himself away from it at all. And. I know he uses it. He has anxiety and. has been struggling with depression and. so he uses it as a bit of a coping. mechanism as well. And so I'm just.

trying to figure out like how am I. supposed to help him with him not being. in the house? Like how do I guide him to. stop using technology so much? Yeah. Um. we see this quite often. Kids who, while. they're still living at home with the. container and the guardrails that. parents provide, are able to manage. their relationship with technology, but. when when they go off to college and all. of a sudden those guardrails are gone, some of these kids will very quickly.

fall into a kind of a 24/7. online, you know, digital habit. Um and if you. >> not alone. So you're not alone. So. you're not alone. >> Yeah. You're not alone. And then if you. couple that with with a child who's. prone to anxiety and depression, what's very clear from the data is that. the more time a child spends online, Mhm. consuming digital media, social. media, the higher their risk of becoming.

depressed and anxious. And if they. already have depression and anxiety, that depression and anxiety will get. worse. So we really have a a causal. phenomenon where the consumption of. digital media and social media drives. the depression and the anxiety. This is. really really important concept. Back to. some of my earlier advice, sitting down. with your son, a really transparent. discussion about what you're observing. that's different from before he went. away to college, talking about does he observe the same.

thing, offering him help. I mean, if he. has depression and anxiety and he's not. getting help for that, strongly. recommend you hook him up with the you. know, either your own resources for. mental health or school. Most colleges. have very good mental health resources. But, I would you know, again, get in. there and not just sort of assume that. it's going to get better naturally on on. on its own. And Kelly, the reason that I'm would.

especially emphasize this is because. Oprah, we do see some kids who when they. go off to college and all of a sudden. are surrounded by the wonderful. opportunities and the new friends group. friend groups, they actually get off get. off their devices. They're on their. devices less. Right? College becomes. this kind of opening to the world. But, if your child is if they're having the. opposite experience, I I think you you. know, the alarm bells should be ringing.

and you should really be thinking about. oh wow, you know, >> Yeah. how can we help? And in some. instances, >> son had to drop out of college at 19. because he became so obsessed with the. devices. >> Yeah, I was just going to say that. >> to take it away from him, he ended up, you know, trying to fight her and beat. her up and it's just Oh my god. So, it's. a it's a real thing. It's it What you've. observed is not some play thing. It's a. real thing. >> Right. Right. Yeah, and and kids are can. get incredibly isolated. They're up all. night playing video games, watching.

YouTube, um you know, sleeping during. the day, get getting suicidal. So, I. mean, I have had lots of patients where. they actually have to stop out of. school, come home and and really get. some very intensive treatment. And I you. know, I have no idea what you what your. circumstances so you know, no no way to. make any specific recommendations, but. just to give you a sense of kind of the. range of issues that that that. >> And likely your son, depending upon what. your relationship is or is not, may not.

tell you the truth. Just like we were. hearing earlier with Catherine, you. know, they start lying about it and. and making up stories about it and using. other ways to get around it. And so. Yes. >> to send you Dopamine Nation. >> [laughter]. >> Okay. Thank you so much, Kelly. >> Yeah, thanks, Kelly. >> So, in a clip that has since gone viral, British actor Hugh Grant vented his. frustrations as a parent in the age of. tech. Many say he spoke for millions of. parents. Here it is in case you haven't.

seen this. The exhausting nature of. parenthood under these circumstances. year after year, month after month, day. after day fighting the children. No, no, no, no, no, no, give that back or no, we. agreed you could have 20 minutes on. Saturday. And so. it was extremely surprising and. extremely depressing. when you get emails from the school. about or the new school you've sent your. kid to saying proudly, "And we give all. our children their own Chromebook or. their own um iPad." And you just think,

"What? How? How could that be a good idea? If. If school is for anything, it's Surely. they deserve just 6 hours off from their. addiction from from from this this crazy. addiction. Because to people like us, honestly, Big Tech with its. extraordinary powers. seems like a drug cartel pushing its. wares at children.

Well, Hugh Grant is a patron of an. organization called Close Screens, Open. Minds, which advocates to get screens. and tech out of the school curriculum. Now, another patron is Sophie Winkleman, an actress and member of the British. royal family by marriage. Sophie, thank. you so much for joining us from London. Thank you. >> much for having me. I'm delighted to be. here. Why did you get involved and what. are you hoping to achieve? Uh I got. involved um from basically lockdown and.

seeing how terribly my children and. every other child I was in contact with. their parents was was learning online. and on screens. I also became a patron. of an education charity and I visited. many, many schools around Britain and I. felt in a position after that to see. what worked in the classroom and what. doesn't work in the classroom. Mhm. >> Um schools where tech was used extremely. moderately, in fact just for IT lessons, the children were engaged, they were. learning well, they had good.

relationships with their teachers, they. would work in a calm way with books and. handwriting. These schools stood out a. mile, whether it was a free school or a. private paying school. These were at the. top of the heap. And then loads of other. schools, strangely especially very. expensive schools, drank the ed tech. Kool-Aid and splattered the classrooms. with devices. And it was done in a very. proud, aren't we cream of the crop kind. of way, and initially parents were. thinking, yeah, my kid's going to be. Zuckerberg at 25, they're going to be,

you know, on screens all day, they're. going to know the ins and outs of this. thing and yay, I'm looking forward to a. very. >> to be what everybody wanted. You want. your kid to go to a school that was. tech-savvy. Exactly, and the school presented it in. this futuristic, shiny, progressive way, and to be fair, a lot of them probably. did think that it was the future of. education, yeah. But then, when their. children started getting agitated and. angry and not concentrating and.

going to sleep later and getting. headaches and then playing games after. all the online homework, parents started. going, "Whoa, whoa, really? Is this. definitely the future of education? And. haven't all these companies presented us. with a solution where there wasn't. actually a problem?" I mean, clearly. huge class sizes are a problem and. teacher overload in terms of social. behavior and stuff, that's a huge. problem. But books and handwriting and. teacher-led learning was not a problem. And you know, we all found out later.

that many tech execs send their own. children to schools who don't allow. screens. Precisely. It's a very sad, hypocritical, big old secret that. uh the the mega tech giants understand. that the human capital is now attention. and focus. And they send their children. to schools where they learn 10-page. poems and learn every musical instrument. under the sun because they know that's. going to be the future gold of human.

human imagination and mind. So, what's. your most important message now you you. you want parents and educators to know? I want educators to know that parents. aren't buying this anymore. They're not. okay with it. You and I are fighting um. the British education system at the. moment, which wants to put all national. exams online, which would have a. disastrous trickle-back effect of. meaning that children are on screens for. their entire school day cuz the parents. wouldn't have to provide books. They'd.

say, "Sorry, the exams are online, so. let's get the kids super savvy about. what they're going to be doing." Um so, we're fighting that. I want to give. parents a voice to say, "So sorry, how. is this better than reading a book and. handwriting a response?" None of the. schools can ever answer that. They give. all sorts of sort of slogany responses. saying, "It's the future." No, it isn't. the future. Children who can't think. properly and deeply, that's not the kind. of future I want to be a part of. And I.

know you have two two two school-aged. daughters, and what's your biggest. concern for them in this moment? The. biggest concern for me with them is that. they don't get books anymore. They don't. read novels for English. They don't have. textbooks for any of their subjects. They come home, and everything is. online, whether it's bite-sized videos. or, you know, online sort of. PowerPoints, or it's all very agitating, shallow, flimsy, and maddening. I can. see they're not learning. I can see. their physical health is suffering.

They're getting, you know, very stressed. out by this way of education, and I want. parents to take to the streets and start. revolting. Dr. Lipky, I know you're also. involved with Hugh and Sophie's. organization. What's your What's your. take on screens in schools? I agree with. everything that that Sophie said. Um I. think this is really important work. There are some glimmers of hope in that, you know, I and many others have been. talking for more than a decade now about.

getting smartphones out of schools K. through 12, you know, so that kids don't. have little slot machines in their. pockets, so that they can actually. attend uh to to to learn, and teachers. can teach. And we are seeing more and. more schools around the world banning. smartphones from schools, so I think. that's really good news. But. still what we have is this idea that. integrating technology into the way that.

we teach will make the teaching better. And yet all of the data, even beyond our. parental instincts, all of the data are. showing that reading ability is. decreasing, mathematical ability is. decreasing, and even in the creative. realm, kids are doing worse. This, I. think, we really have to look at and. say, "Okay, you know, we all kind of thought,

you know, getting technology and cool. screens and pads and things would make. our kids digital digital digitally. literate, ready for the 21st century, but actually it's going in the opposite. direction. And what we're creating is a generation. of distracted kids who don't know how to. learn. Because learning occurs. in that moment of friction and delayed. gratification. It is the not knowing.

that allows our brains to create new. synapses, which is the definition of. learning something, right? And so again, we we have to. get back to having slow tech spaces in. the schools where kids can experience. frustration tolerance. and have to actually have enough time. and space to have a thought and learn.

how to express it and write it down on. on on their own. Do you feel it's getting easier to get. this message out because more and more. parents have become equally as. frustrated as you and you? I think it is. getting easier just because results are. going down so so blatantly all across. the world and it's it's getting easier. to just say this this way of learning is. really not working. Uh but we're fighting uh I think um. Emily Cherkin calls EdTech Big Tech in a.

school uniform and it's a multi-billion. dollar industry EdTech now. And so we. sort of parents saying, but sorry, books. and handwriting are a better way to. learn. Of course you can do your. technology education, but EdTech is a. very different beast. It's a huge. business and it's not doing our children. a good service. I'm just very grateful. I think this will be the turning point. being with you and talking about it on. this because millions of people watch. you, so I'm terribly grateful. I hope I. hope that it is a beginning of something.

that really lends itself to allowing. other people to understand that we're in. trouble. We're in trouble. Thank you for. being the voice for that. Thank you, Sophie. Thank you very much for having. me. Thank you for having me. >> You know, I learned from reading. Dopamine Nation that just about anybody. can be powerless. Yeah. I I against. these digital forces that we're all up. against and. the interesting thing is we regulate. cigarettes and we regulate alcohol and. there is some regulation to gambling for.

children. Australia is now putting an. age limit. >> Yeah. on on social media. So, why don't. we put guardrails around this? Why Why. Why aren't we aware that this is. happening to our kids and I mean, we we. need to do just that, right? Like we we. don't let kids be guardrails. Yeah, kids. don't They're not allowed to buy. cigarettes or alcohol or go into casinos. and gamble. We recognize that the. developing brain is especially.

vulnerable. >> you said earlier. We're not serving them. ice cream for breakfast. We know that. >> we know that. So, we we need these. guardrails. Um and you know, I I applaud. Australia and I applaud other countries. like South Korea that have gotten. smartphones out of schools. I applaud. states here in the United States that. are moving to, you know, create these. guardrails. We have to try try things. out. We have to. And we also importantly. have to hold the corporations that make. and profit from these digital drugs.

accountable, right? Like they are. deploying uh you know, a harmful product. for kids. Um and that that shouldn't. that shouldn't be allowed. That. shouldn't be okay. >> So, your final word. What's the most. important advice for parents or families. grappling with uh tech addiction? I go. back to what you said in the very. beginning, to understanding that. this is a drug. >> Right. Yeah. I agree, and I also I al- I always want.

to say to parents, take a deep breath, okay, and stay hopeful. This is a problem that is insidious and. typically develops over days to weeks to. months. It's going to take days and. weeks to months to get out of it, right? It's not going to be a snap of the. fingers. >> You can't just pull that phone away and. think that's it. >> Get help from a mental health provider. if it's too much for your family or for. you to handle alone, but but get in. there. Don't just give up and say it's.

too late for my kid or there's nothing I. can do. Get in there. Um adv- you know, fight at your school, get ed tech out of schools, fight for. these guardrails on a legislative level, hold corporations accountable like Yeah. >> Let's energize, you know? We can do it. But in the immediate, recognizing what. you said at the beginning of this. conversation, that. your child's device is a drug to them.

And so trying to remove the drug is like. your child is in the midst of taking. that drug and you're trying to take that. drug away from them. And you're going to. have, you know, meltdowns and you're. going to have a lot of anger and. dysregulation. >> right. >> That's right. Hope you read it. Dopamine. Nation, important for all of us at this. time to understand what's happening to. our minds on our tech devices and the. minds of our children. Dr. Lemke, you. are a gem Oh. for us in this this this.

age. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you for helping us get. through it. Yeah. >> And understanding ourselves. >> Yeah. Thank you for the information. And. thank you to Eda and Katherine and Kelly. and Sophie Winkelman. Thank you so much. Dr. Lembke's book, Dopamine Nation. 1.5. million have already found it to be. really inspiring and helpful to them. It's available wherever you buy your. books. If you want to understand what's. actually going on in the brain and the. hit of dopamine your children are. getting from their screens, it may help.

you navigate your children's use of. tech. I strongly urge you to read it. Until next time, go well. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.