We've Never Been Meaner. Here's Why.

Why does it seem like people are so mean. these days? Have you all noticed? It feels like people have gotten meaner. Like civility has left the building. [music] So, what is going on? >> The environment around us has changed. and it's triggering us to be mean. >> I was so surprised to read this, that. healthcare is America's most dangerous. profession [music]. due to workplace violence. And you've. had things thrown at you, is what I'm. saying. >> A patient broke my nurse's hand.

>> There's something about flying that. seems to bring out just [music] the. worst in people. >> What's the worst thing somebody said to. you? >> I had a gentleman that said to me, [music] I violate women like you. >> Wow. So, what is the path forward? Can. you give us a reason to hope that things. are going to get better? >> I mean, I have lots of answers to that. >> do. Hi everybody. Thanks for joining me on. the Oprah podcast. A heartfelt welcome. to this audience who all look so great.

and worked on looking great this. morning. Congratulations to yourselves. >> [applause]. >> Really impressed. I had a conversation. on this podcast, actually, with Kristen. Cabat. Many of you may have seen it. She's the woman who was on that Coldplay. Kiss Cam video that went viral all over. the world. So viral. I mean, when they. told me that it had 300 billion views, I. couldn't believe it cuz I was like, well, there's only 8 billion people on. the planet. How is there 300 billion.

people see it? Apparently, people were. passing it around and sharing it and. sharing. And she told me about the just. the deluge of vitriol that was directed. at her online, which obviously was bad. enough, but people also had the nerve, after her address was put on the radio, to drive by her house and even walk up. to her in public in front of her.

children to verbally attack her, just. saying mean awful things. And of course, as we talked about on that show, she. even received death threats. Okay, and I. feel so strongly, y'all can say what you. want, but I feel strongly that she did. not deserve that on any level for being. out with her boss. Okay? So, after. talking with Kristen, I kept wondering, what is happening to us in this world? Why does it seem like people are so mean. these days? Have y'all noticed?

>> Yes. >> It feels like people have gotten meaner, right? Like civility has left the. building. And then I found out I'm not. alone in feeling this way. Take a look. >> Y'all, I just got out of Target and I'm. about to lose my freaking mind. People. are so. rude. Um. >> [laughter]. >> Uh, what's wrong with people? We have a lost all sense of humanity and. compassion. We have. We've lost it.

>> I don't understand mean people. I don't understand how you wake up in. the morning and your first [music]. thought is how do I be as mean as. possible today? >> Can't stand mean people. Go to therapy. Take a pottery class. Go hug a tree. I. don't know, but sort out your issues. >> I mean, like people don't hold doors. anymore. They don't say please, thank. you, you're welcome. People don't hear. how they speak to you, how they make you. feel. Everybody's just so insensitive. and I can't understand [music] what. happened. Like what made everybody like. this? >> Yeah, I That's exactly what we're asking. today. So, you know, there's a recent.

study that found that 53% of Americans. believe that society is uncivil. More. than a third say that they almost always. or often see people behaving rudely when. they go out in public. And to help us. understand what is at the root of this, I'm joined by Dr. Jay Van Bavel. Now, he. says I can call him Dr. Jay. >> Yeah. >> You're the other one. >> Yeah. >> The other one. So, that's what we're. going to be doing today. Dr. Jay is a.

professor of psychology and neuroscience. at New York University and the director. of the NYU Center for conflict and. cooperation. He's also the co-author of. The Power of Us. The Power of Us. Great title, right? The. Power of Us, Harnessing Our Shared. Identities to Improve Performance, Increase Cooperation, and Promote Social. Harmony. >> Thank you so much for having me, Oprah. >> So, what is going on?

>> I'm a social psychologist. So, what that. means to me is what in our environments. have changed because. >> You social psychologist means you study. this stuff. >> Yeah, I study this stuff. I I do. research on this and been studying it. for 20 years. And the main lesson when. you see this is not that humans have. become meaner, human nature has not. really changed in the last decade or. more. >> It has not. >> It has not. And so, when you see people. becoming meaner to one another, including online, what you have to. understand is that the environment. around us has changed and it's. triggering us.

to be mean and and lack a sense of. civility towards one another. >> Okay, so if it's triggering us to be. mean, that means they've become meaner. >> [laughter]. >> Our behaviors become meaner. Our human. nature has not changed. And so, what. that means is. >> We're basically good. >> We we well, we can be better if you. change the environment, people will be. less mean. >> So, people are being mean because of the. environment? >> Yes. >> Okay, explain that. >> Okay. So, there's lots of uh reasons why. people become mean or lack civility. Um.

one of it is when you're under stress. So, like when people are struggling. financially, >> Yeah. >> that is something that can trigger them. to lash out more. They're under a a lot. of cognitive distress when that's. happening. They're thinking about it all. the time. They have a hard time. regulating themself. So, that's kind of. what's bubbling up from a lot of people. They're facing stressors in their own. life that have increased. >> But this isn't the first time in the. world that people have faced stressors. I mean, people went through the. depression and people were still kind to. each other and trying to help their.

neighbors and had the attitude of like. if you're in trouble then your family's. in trouble, we're going to help your. your family. I mean, okay, so. >> Okay, so so you're 100% right. So we. faced these other stresses before and. haven't acted this way, okay? So the. stressors are increasing but then what's. happening in our social environment? And. the things that are happening is. there's less of a sense of us, a sense. of common connection and purpose and so. people are more disconnected and. isolated than ever. They're.

rewarded for that when they go online. It's there's not really a strong sense. of treating somebody who's different. than you as part of your community. And. then the other thing is that our norms. have eroded. That we see other people. acting like this and that makes it more. acceptable for us to do it. And so when. you talk to tell about the story of. Christian Cabott. no one might have done that but once. they see, you know, tens or hundreds or thousands of other. people mocking her, ridiculing her, shaming her, they feel an urge to do it.

too. Partly it's because human nature is. we look to other people like us to see. what they're doing and then we do the. same thing. >> So is it also because of I mean, social. media gets blamed for a lot of things. but is this also because of the. anonymity involved in social media that. you can say mean things, act however you. want to act and nobody actually knows. who you are? >> Yeah, it's a few things with social. media. So one of it is you can be really. mean as an anonymous person, you can. troll others and some people do that.

But a lot of people are actually doing. it under their own name from their own. accounts and part of the reason they do. it is because one of the things that. gets rewarded on social media is. expressing moral outrage. And so some. people are feeling moral outrage. They're projecting their own issues into. the situation, but other people are. seeing the outrage and feeling like, oh, I better express mine so I signal that. I'm a good person. That's where you. start to get the pile on where you say. 300 billion people saw it and there's. this massive pile on. It's because of. all of these things kind of getting. amplified. And then you have technology,

the algorithms are amplifying whatever's. driving engagement. >> Yeah, I thought it was interesting that. a celebrity, this is Doja Cat, recently. was talking about Timothy Chalamet and. then later posted that she shouldn't. have been talking about Timothy. Chalamet. Did you all see that post? She. then said, you know, I should I. shouldn't have even been posting about. that because what I really needed was a. hug. >> Yeah. >> And what I really needed was, you know, and that she was doing that to show her.

moral outrage because she thought she. would get a lot of people who would be. supporting that. And I thought that was. really brave of her, insightful of her, and and a really a great sense of. self-awareness to actually say that cuz. most people do it and they don't even. know that's why they're doing it. Exactly. Yeah. >> They either don't know that's why. they're doing it or they don't want to. admit it. >> Yes. >> [laughter]. [music]. >> Everything I do begins with intention. >> You become exactly what you believe is.

possible. >> Especially the Oprah podcast. [music]. >> You're doing good, eh? >> I believe when people share their. personal journeys with authenticity, >> Never thought of it like that. >> I love that you've never thought [music]. of it that way before. >> And with intention, something beautiful. happens. We recognize pieces of our own. lives in [music] theirs. We realize. >> That actually helps, right? >> We are not alone. Life is a journey. and how we navigate [music]. it matters. That's why I am so excited.

to welcome our friends at GEICO as the. official insurance partner for the Oprah. podcast. For 90 years, Geico has been there for. the highs and the lows, with people. [music] through life's exciting moments, and supporting them when the road takes. an unexpected turn. Geico's protection. has given customers the peace of mind to. keep moving forward. And that support [music] matters at. every point along the way. A first car, a new home, a teenager [music] learning.

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we keep driving [music] forward. And that, dear listener, is everything. >> So, you say that life in America today. is like being a child in a family where. the parents are constantly fighting. >> Mhm. >> And I remember many years ago hearing an. expert say that when you fight in front. of your children, you change who they. are. >> Yes. >> So, how is that affecting us if we are.

like a child in a family where the. parents are constantly fighting? >> Yeah. Okay, so what we're talking about. there is the psychological impact and. the stress that causes on kids. And so, when kids are in a home where the. parents are fighting all the time, um it. causes them stress. You can measure it. in their physiology, but also they. become very sensitive to anything that. might be distressing in their. environment. They see threats that might. not even be there. And so, they're. hyper-attuned to potential threats. And. so, when you live in a universe where.

the parents are always fighting with one. another, that causes us stress, but it. also makes us hypersensitive to seeing. threats in our environment. >> And the reason we feel that way is. because we're surrounded by it. everywhere, right? You turn on the news. and it it causes a sense of tension and. even though you don't think you're. taking it in, it allows you to be. stressful. >> It's not only stressful, but then it's a. role model. So, one of the big things we. talk about with parents is how they. become good role models. If our leaders in society are acting.

like that, then also we are more likely. to think it's acceptable ourselves. >> Absolutely. So, I understand that. there's a new study first study found. that AI chatbots are actually making. people behave worse in real life. How is. that possible? >> Okay, so. we just talked about social media as one. technology and engagement-based. algorithms amplifying this. Okay, so now. let's talk about the new technology. >> Yes. >> The fastest growing technology in human. history is artificial intelligence. Just. out of curiosity, how many people here.

have talked to a chatbot? Okay, so you have like 90 80% of people. in this room. Chatbots are also designed. to keep us engaged. And so, one of the. features this new study found that you. mentioned is that they are 50% more. sycophantic than real humans. So, if. you're interacting with a chatbot, it's. going to tell you you're brilliant, you're right. Okay, so what are the. consequences of that? We've heard about. these delusions and mental health. spirals from people, um but it can. actually harm our relationships. >> Yeah. >> So, uh the study that you mentioned,

they find that if you're talking about. let's say conflict in your family or. with a good friend and you're asking. your chatbot for advice, >> it's going to agree with you. >> It agrees with you and so you. >> tell you you're right. >> you you're right and so if you know. you're right, then you're not going to. make an effort to repair the. relationship. Uh we also studied in my lab at NYU and. what we find is if you're talking about. value-based issues, it tells you you're right and then you. become more extreme and more. overconfident in your beliefs. And the. other thing, and this is the worst part, Oprah, is that um people don't even see.

it. They have a blind spot to it because. everybody loves to hear how brilliant. they are, and when they hear that, they're thinking, "Oh, of course.". >> It just affirms them. >> Yeah, just affirms them. >> Affirms affirms them. Yeah, we did a. whole podcast on this. People are, you. know, falling in love with their. chatbot. Unfortunately, people are also. harming themselves because of their. chatbot. So, there's something about. flying though that seems to bring out. just the worst in people. And it didn't. always be that way. I'm I'm old enough.

to have been in the air where people. actually dressed up to go on flights. It. was such a big deal to be on a flight. Like you're wearing gloves and dressing. up and stuff. Not anymore. People barely. bathe. >> [laughter]. >> Yes. So, the Department of Transportation. reports that the number of unruly. passenger events has doubled since 2019. with one in five flight attendants. reporting experiencing physical. incidents. Watch this.

>> Well, why why does it show up on on on. airplanes so much? >> Okay, so airplanes are not the internet. What's happening on airplanes? This is. real life. So, I said, "The situation is. different, right? From when you flew.". And when I remember flying my first few. times, you never saw anything like this. And so, what's happening is that. something has changed in their. environment. And what I would say is. first of all, if you're on a flight, a. lot of the seats have gotten smaller and. smaller. Someone mentioned we're all in.

this tin can together. So it's a it's a. distressing experience. Now, I'm going. to tell you about a study Oprah that. kind of explains a little bit of the new. situation. The research finds, this is a. great study, they find if people enter a. plane and they have to walk past all the. first class seats before they get to. theirs, they're far more likely to. experience air rage. >> So what is it that's triggering it? What. is it that's triggering it? >> Yeah. They're seeing all these people. have way more than me. >> Yeah. >> And then I'm crammed in this tiny seat. and that is more likely to make them.

feel resentful and frustrated and lash. out. >> Okay. Well, Share knows this very well. The other Share. >> Hi [laughter] Share. >> Okay. Share's been a flight attendant. for 7 years and those videos ring true. for you? >> Unfortunately, yes. Um aviation has not. been exempt from the decline in. civility. I say I make the best dinner. party guest because I have so many. stories. Um and I've come across behavior that. has just left me speechless. Um I've had. an incident with a gentleman that while.

we were conducting cabin service, he. needed to use the restroom and. typically, you know, we'll pass their. row or try to back up to let them use. the restroom. Especially, you know, once. the seatbelt sign's off. He went back to. his seat, didn't give us a chance to. move, and after we had finished service, maybe 20 minutes later, he came to the. front galley and was really irate and. he's holding a cup. And flight. attendants have some spidey senses. because we've seen it all and I asked, "Sir, what is that?" And including foul.

language, he said, "It's pee.". Um and he was in a middle seat on a full. flight. So I don't know. the people next to him didn't complain, um but he took his cup and dumped it out. in the lavatory sink and I was left, I. mean, with nothing to say. All I could. say is, "Sir, you can't do that." That's. the only thing I could get out of my. mouth. I was just so shocked. Um and. yeah, stories like that, unfortunately, I have plenty of them.

>> So, what do you do when you in a. situation where somebody is unruly or. potentially violent or upset? What do. you do? What do you What do you all. trained to do? >> We are trained to diffuse. That's our. number one priority is diffuse the. situation. And I think a lot of the time. people feel outrage because they want to. be heard. And usually with an average. person that's maybe upset, they missed. their previous flight. You have to. assume they've been through really. tumultuous situations. I pretty much try. to assume on every flight that I work.

that you have someone that's going to a. wedding, going to a baby shower, you. have someone that's going to a funeral. You can't You have to assume that. they're going through something when. they're traveling. And that's usually. true. So, when it comes to handling. them, I try to make them feel heard. And. obviously, we have limits because. there's safety rules and there's other. things. You can't make everyone happy. Um but I try to give two choices that. are both, you know, something that's. allowed and allow them to feel like they. have a little bit of the control back.

That typically helps. But with. situations like that, I mean, we were. moving out of the way to let him use the. lavatory, but it didn't make a. difference. He was going to do. >> What's the worst thing somebody said to. you? >> I had a gentleman that through another. incident, he said to me, "I violate. women like you.". >> Whoa. >> And that was really That was one that, I. mean, left me speechless. And he. suffered We had law enforcement involved. in that, and he suffered no consequences. for his actions. >> I violate women like you. >> That was his first response to me. Yeah.

>> Wow. >> And it just. gives you chills. Like you just don't. expect [clears throat] You're locked in. a metal tube. >> He got you. >> with someone like that. And. you know, you do your best to vet them. at the door, but you don't know. who they are or what they're going. through when they come on board. >> Do you have a question for Dr. Jay? >> So, I guess I try to look at things in a. really positive light. Um, and as. somebody that wants to spread. positivity, and I'm in a position where. I get to meet so many people and spread. positivity, what is something that I can.

do to help with the decline of civility? >> Yeah, so first of all, those stories are. awful. No one should have to deal with. that. I I just really I cringe with the. first story and gasp with the second. >> pee stayed in the cup. I thought he was. going to throw it at her. >> [laughter]. >> It did go in the sink, but. >> Yeah, I thought he was going to throw. the pee out. >> I was more worried about the people. sitting next to him when he filled the. cup. >> [laughter]. >> Um, so so first of all, you get to touch. a lot of people's lives because you're. dealing with people all day long, huge. groups of them. And so, I think the. first thing obviously, cuz you're stuck.

in this tin can, is is de-escalate these. situations. I I I I can see the. challenge of you do not want to. up-escalate. You saw all the videos of. what happens when that that unfolds. But, I think the best you can do is try. to uh you know, make a positive. impression on all of the other people. The other thing you might be able to do, so when I saw the videos and I've seen. these debates and videos go viral on. social media where people are fighting. about whether they can like push back. their chair or not. That gets to my one. of my first points to Oprah about norms.

The reason you have those presumably is. because uh uh the airplane wants to let. you do that. That's part of what you're. paying for. But, if people don't think. that's acceptable, they're going to push back against it. They're fighting against the fact that. they don't really see that as a norm. anymore. And so, I think one of the. things you can really control as a. flight attendant and people who are like. running the airplane is really making it. clear what the norms are about how the. flight the staff should be treated, but. also how you will treat them and how. they should treat one another. And I. think like making those very clear is.

one of the most powerfully powerful. things you can do to really kind of. change behavior in a positive way. >> Awesome. >> Yeah. >> God bless you. >> [laughter]. >> Thank you. >> day. God. >> I love what I do. >> That actually helps, right? It actually. helps. Thank you, Sher. Uh. this is the thing. I was so surprised to. read this that healthcare is America's. most dangerous profession. Due to workplace violence. In fact, there's a staggering 76% of healthcare.

workers have reported experiencing. violence on the job. And Dr. Bhoomi. Patel is an emergency medicine doctor, and I thank you for being here. We We. did not know this. Did we know that. But you do. >> I know. I know. >> 76%? >> 76%. and. >> That's three quarters of the healthcare. workers. >> Three quarters of the healthcare. workers. >> I thought flight attendants had it. there. >> No, no, no, no, not at all. >> This is worse. >> No.

>> And I'm really so so I'm surprised, but. I have one of one of my South African. daughter girls is a is a is a is a. doctor at the University of Pennsylvania. doing I mean doing her residency, and. she says that she's going to that she. she's going to move into oncology. because the experience of being a. resident has taught her that it's the. cancer patients who actually are the. most grateful. And everybody else treats. you like. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> So what is happening in the world? I. mean, let's let's take a look be before.

the pandemic. Um I know you had a chance. to speak to our former Surgeon General, Dr. Murthy. And he pointed it very. accurately that we are in a loneliness. pandemic. But that's just a very small. uh portion. >> doing to the healthcare workers? That's. what we We're all shocked that it's 76%. >> connected. We're in a loneliness. pandemic, but the healthcare workers saw. the mental health pandemic coming ages. before COVID did. People were hurting.

People are not only physically getting. sicker, mentally they're in a lot of. crisis and they don't have the support. outside in the communities. So, health. care becomes your front lines. Emergency. departments become your front lines for. mental health care. You're already. stressed, cortisol levels are running. high. You're hyper-vigilant because your. environment is already a threat. Now, imagine coming to the most chaotic. location. possible, your emergency departments for.

your care. >> Yeah. >> I see 60 hurt people in a day. I have 5. minutes to learn your story. That's not. enough for you to tell me exactly what. your body has been through all these. years, what your brain and your psyche. has been through all these years. You're. already hurt and now. you're you feel like I don't see you, I. don't hear you, I don't validate you, you're going to snap. >> is that because you, meaning the health care workers, are. overworked and don't have enough people.

to service all the people that need. helping? This trend to. be violent to health care workers, is. that something new? >> I mean, that was the first time I've. heard of those data with the violence, the just the sheer level of violence, Dr. Patel, but I will say that all the. things you mentioned as kind of. precursors are things I'm aware about. Um, so the rise in mental health. problems, the lack of treatment and. resources for those. Those are happening. at university campuses. I see it with my. undergraduate students in my class. And.

then you talked about they're coming in. with pain. and then there's also a level of. dehumanization because they have this. image of these health care workers from. COVID where they're all masked up. >> Yeah. >> And and I'm a New Yorker, so I remember. during that wave of first wave of the. pandemic where. >> Everybody was out there being a hero. We. were. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> our windows, trapped in our apartments, cheering at like 7:00 p.m. every night, banging pots and pans. >> So, what happened? >> So, the problem is you're understaffed. and that's not your fault. That's a. problem with the system. But the problem is also the norms.

Again, I gave a talk and a workshop in. Canada to over a thousand doctors and. nurses and health care staff. And then I. met with them after and the stories they. told me about things like conspiracy. theories and misinformation. They now. don't trust their doctors or their. nurses. You give them advice and they. don't even believe it. And and and all. the medical health staff told me. >> Conspiracy theories. Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> That's a whole rabbit hole. But but a. lot of medical staff that I talked to. are not even trained to deal with that.

because there used to being we're the. experts. You come to us for treatment. You take our advice and we help you. And. this causes all kinds of conflict and. friction in all of their interactions. And then the people there lash out. >> You've had things thrown at you and. people. >> Oh, yeah. My. my colleagues have um. bear the brunt of this. I can tell you a. story of my nurse. What IV doesn't hurt. when you get an IV placed in you? Um a patient broke my nurse's hand. Fractured it because his IV hurt. And.

then of course my nurse became my. patient and I had to tend to her hand. She was out of work for over 90 days. We're already understaffed. >> Wow. >> Yeah. She needs her hand to take care of. patients. >> had things thrown at you as well, I. would think. >> Oh, 100%. That's you know, it's um it's. become so commonplace that like verbal. abuse, racial slurs um. what she said, you know, I violate woman. like you. That's common. That's so. common that we've become immune to it.

that we don't even report it anymore. because it's so common. It's a daily. occurrence for some of my nurses and I. >> Do you think I mean, listen, I'm there's. no one thing to blame, but I think I. don't know if some of the shows we watch. on television, you know, those shows. where the women are pulling each other's. hair out and calling each other you. and things. Um whether or not that had an influence. on us feeling people feeling like they. can say anything and do anything.

>> This is exactly the issue. The more we. see those images and people absorb them, the more they think it's acceptable to. do that. And and I want to just like. say, when I think of healthcare workers, that's like a really altruistic job. You're putting your life on the line to. save people's lives. >> Yeah. >> If that if we get, you know, I've seen. the data on medical doctors and nurses. burnout, drop they're dropping out of. the profession because it no longer. becomes worth it. >> Yep. >> That affects our whole health as a. society. >> worth it if people are throwing things. at you when you're trying to help them. >> No way.

>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And how has it. changed your perspective about what you. do, Dr. Patel? >> You know, it hasn't because I understand. his research. I understand human nature. has not fundamentally changed. I agree. with that research even on ground. levels. I understand that people. >> hasn't changed. It's our environment. >> environment. People post-COVID pain came. back even more sicker. Their public. their their physical health concerns. were not addressed for almost 2 years. Mental health crises were rising. Now.

you're coming back into an environment. where you've lost a lot of your doctors. and nurses. So the time you're getting. is even shorter. So I understood the. environment changed and it changed for. the worse. >> Okay, so what are we going to do about. it? How are we going to how do we unite. the power of us to change this? >> Well, I I think the broader issue for. me, cuz we're now talking about. airplanes, internet, social media, we're talking about the medical. environment. I think we need to really. realize that this this is a broader. societal issue that we need to create a.

sense that we're all in it together, that we all are part of the same. community, that you are doing a service. to help us, whether you're helping me. fly somewhere or you're helping me get. treated or my family get treated. You. know, the one of the most important ways. of thinking about this that I get from. the research that I've done and and we. describe in our book is the way people. think about the world is they have a. moral circle. And people inside that moral circle you. support and care for. and cooperate with. And people outside. of it are are outsiders and we do not.

necessarily care. We'll walk by them if. they're in pain on the street. But the research shows and and we. describe this in our book that people. have flexible moral circles. You can get. people to think of themselves in a. broader scope, in a broader sense of. identity. And once you do that, they. will stop and help the person who's. who's suffering. And so I think a big. part of it is we have to change people's. minds to get them to realize. and understand and constantly be. thinking about it that we're all in it. together. And if we forget about that, our health care system starts to fall.

apart. It becomes dangerous to fly. We. can't post something online without. getting harassed. And so that's a. broader issue and all of us have a role. in it. We all role model it. It's how we. talk. It's how we treat other people, but it also has to come from our. leaders. >> [laughter]. >> Thank you. >> [laughter]. >> American workers report experiencing. 212.

million acts of workplace incivility. every single day. I like that it's 212 and not 210 or 200. 212. million acts of workplace incivility. every single day. So that's baristas and. fast food workers are often the target. of people's anger and frustration. So we. have a guest here today. Aiden, tell us. what is your story? >> So I've been in the fast food industry. for almost 2 years now and I've actually.

found that when people come in, they're. usually either already frustrated or. angry. That might have nothing to do. with you. And even when I I to do my. best to help them. Sometimes it's just. simply not enough. I remember an instance that I had. actually my first week. >> Mhm. >> And it was a couple and. I don't know if it was a first date type. of situation, but he went to pay and the. card did not go through. And. >> He took it out on you. >> Yeah, and.

>> [laughter]. >> I notified him of this and he just. started cussing at me, yelling some very. unkind things. The woman next to him is. like looking at him like he's kind of. crazy. And I'm just like. >> Cuz he knows that date's over. >> [laughter]. >> There's no second date. >> Yeah. Yeah, I. >> [laughter]. >> You cannot come back from the credit. card not going through at a fast food.

restaurant. >> [laughter]. >> on your first date. He knows that's. over, so. >> And you know, even like when I'm working. at the cash register or the drive-thru, I always make sure I'm good at. communicating. You have to make sure. you're kind. I've even seen people. they've had thrown food at their feet. and they yelled that they're never going. to come back. And my question to Dr. J is what is the. best way to deal with confrontation. professionally and in the workplace? >> Yeah, so first of all, your story is. horrific and and funny but but.

terrifying. You're dealing with these. people who are escalating because of. something in their own life, right? Again, it goes back to they're facing a. stress. But again, the historical way of. dealing with that is like you're. embarrassed, you try to. clear the bill and and you move on. You. don't upscale the conflict. And so. you're now in a situation where you're. dealing with this person escalating or. you're going to throw their food at you. in the other cases. And so I think like. the lessons that Sheryl told us about. what happens in airplane is first of. all, de-escalate the the situation as.

much as you can because some people when. they get in a what's called a hot state, where they're angry or frustrated, they. actually it's trouble it's difficult for. them to reason and be mature and. regulate their emotions. >> you can't they can't even hear you. anymore. >> Yeah, yeah. And and some people have you. know, what they do in anger management. is they they they tell you to count down. from 10 or 20. And so you're going to. have to do that job for them. to de-escalate. Okay, the second thing I. would say to do is have a sense of. solidarity with your other staff. When.

something like this happens, all back. each other up. >> Yes. >> And again, this is about the power of. us, right? It's it's they're going to be. less likely to escalate against you. >> seven, finding solidarity. >> Call solidarity. >> Yeah. >> And and this can be something that you. you should be discussing this with your. coworkers beforehand. That this is our. strategy. Anyone of us faces abuse, all. of us come in and provide support. because someone's going to be less. likely to escalate against you if. there's five people now standing beside. you all having your back. Good. Um and. and that's going to signal to them it's.

kind of. >> escalation button. >> Yeah, escalation is happening. Yes, yes. >> Um and and it could be your manager, but. could also just be your coworkers. And. then you do the same for them. And if. you do that, it's going to de-escalate. things. But and it's going to make it. way more risky for them to throw their. fries or whatever at you. Um they're. going to think twice about that now. And. then the other thing is you're going to. have a greater sense of solidarity and. and camaraderie at your work if you know. everybody's got your back. And so even. when you face these kind of hostile. environments, it's going to be a.

powerful signal to people that it's not. accepted here. None of us will tolerate. it. And all of us have each other's. back. And that's going to be a place. that when other people see that, they're. going to be less likely to escalate, too. So it could have a powerful. influence on changing the norms of your. workplace. >> I would also say that because that is. such a humiliating moment, that maybe. one of the things you all can be trained. to say is, you know, I'm sorry. You. know, the card, you know, is not not not. accepting it at this time. There may be.

something wrong with the machine, but. it's not accepting your card. That's you. know what I mean? Because cuz the guy. then feels like maybe it's the machine. and it's not me. Yeah, the person feels. like maybe it's the machine. Yeah. >> So since that instance I usually ask is. it locked to kind of give them an idea. of like it's not going through and. usually they like go on their phone and. kind of fix it and then that kind of. diffuses it and I just talk calmer, be. kind, always smile. >> Yeah. Yeah, you're doing good.

>> [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> [applause]. >> You're doing good. That's So Kaylee, what's your story? >> Um well, I've been a barista for over 10. years now which. yeah, it's a lot. I've had a lot of. experiences dealing with people. Um and. I just feel like everyone is a little. bit impatient like they don't want to. wait, you know, at all for anything. >> It's true. We've been betrayed by our phones. Instant this, instant response, instant. Nobody wants to wait for anything. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. >> I've had instances where people. kind of get in my face or I've actually. had some guy he threw like a half cup of. iced coffee across the room and it hit. me and my co-workers. You know, I have. people that really make it worthwhile. every day that treat us like friends. So. I think that that is what keeps you. going. But I think you know, everything you say. and do it it kind of affects other. people. >> So you've noticed that people are. meaner. >> Yeah, uh for sure. Yeah. I think there's.

just the patience thing and I just feel. like people don't treat us like we're. actually human beings sometimes. Like if we make a mistake it's just. >> Yeah. Like you're just there to serve. them and. >> Yeah, a little bit. So that's kind of. hard I think, you know, over time. >> They don't understand the power of us. >> [laughter]. >> You don't understand the power of us. Thank you so much for sharing. Well, like our next guest, more than half of. Americans have been harassed on social. media. Let's watch this short clip.

>> Is it me or has everybody gotten like. insanely mean? Like super duper mean. It's to the point where I have a friend. who's afraid to like post pictures of. her online and do stuff online because. of how mean people are. She posted a. picture of herself one time on Twitter. and she's a happy sad girl and like the. comments were crazy, but she sent me. like a picture of her DM and like. somebody told her to. herself. I don't know what's in the.

water, but it's like everybody is just. so mean. I think it's because people are. miserable in real life, so they get on. the internet and they finally are able. to punch down on people. This is the. only power some people have in their. life. Like this is the only way they can. feel better about themselves. >> Yeah, Amber. Yeah. Did you have a. question? >> I dealt dealt with some very mean. comments online. Um I love doing Tik. Tok. I love like doing little dances and. stuff. And I've had comments behind fake.

pages that were horrendous that I. wouldn't even think of. I just feel like. it is a point where people are kind of. disconnected cuz you are on a phone and. it's like a you can just say it and get. away with it. Nobody can know you're. doing it. I had one comment where. someone called me a hog and I was at my. tiniest, but they called me a hog and it. caused me to. exercise excessively, restrict calories. Till this day, that comment was 3 years. ago and it's still I still till this day.

like how many calories is this or I got. to work out 45 minutes to lose this. amount of calories. I just ate this like. and I do it unconsciously now and I. didn't do that prior to that comment. Um. how do you deal with. how do you not take it personal? >> Let me say first, I'm that's awful that. you had to deal with that, that anybody. has to deal with it. And I I think you. understand it. When I saw your video, there was a great like a lot of insight. there about these are hurt people. They're lashing out to feel better about. themselves. Yeah. >> absolutely. >> Um and so they're belittling you or.

anybody. Um I I and why you're feeling. it, that pain 3 years later, is. something also about our basic. psychology. It There's a basic effect. that is bad is stronger than good. So, for every 10 positive comments, the one. negative will stick with you. >> And it's crazy because I've gotten. plenty of positive comments, but I. remember that one comment more than any. other positive comment I've. >> And I feel the same way when I get my. end of semester teaching evaluations. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> And some of those have stuck in my mind. for years later. So, like I I just want.

to like empathize with you that that's. basic human psychology. What you're. going through is not unusual. Um okay, so how do you deal with it? Um the first. thing I want to say is. we should deal with this at the source. because the people doing this are. causing an enormous amount of distress. and mental health issues and and uh. chaos to other people's life. Um the. research on this shows actually the. people who post those type of comments, it's often a small number of people, but. the difference of online a little bit is.

that if you're walking around on the. street in New York, um you know, if. someone wants to harass other people, they can harass a couple and before long. the cops are going to come get them. Online, they can do this to hundreds of. people in a given day. And like you. said, they they put that there and then. they just moved on and did it to someone. else. >> Right. >> Um and and so that is a uh part of the. design of social media. It's the small. It's a small number of people who are. doing most of the chaos. You know, when. we think of misinformation, we just. talked about that in the healthcare. system, 0.1% of people spread 80% of the.

misinformation online. Yeah. And and. >> Really? >> Yes. Yes. >> 0.1%. >> Yeah. >> are spreading 80% of the misinformation. >> posting a lot. So, those people are. posting all day long. >> They've made it their job. >> They've made it their job to push this, but but it causes chaos for all of the. rest of us in our life or harassment. And so, I think there's lots of things. you can do that are within your powers, obviously like you can block comments,

you can mute and block people, and I've. started to do that very liberally cuz. I'm on social media, too. >> I don't even have comments anymore cuz. people just say the meanest, craziest. things. And all the people get together. and they're like. >> [laughter]. >> So, that's that's why I don't have comments. because. >> That sums [laughter] it up right there. >> That's it. That's it. >> Yeah, and so it's like any of us who are. going to live online now, if you're like.

if you enjoy it, you're you're you have. a creative instinct. So, it's for many. people it's related to their career now. to be online. And so, you have to create a bubble. around you that's going to block those. types of of things from reaching you. because I think the moment they reach. you, they're stuck in your mind for 3. years. >> Oh, absolutely. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I will tell you this. I was thinking. this because, you know, as as we don't. we don't have comments we don't have. comments even as you're watching this. podcast cuz people just get so the. vitriol got to be so bad we just stopped.

it. But, I remember back in the day. I was thinking this the other day when I. was feeling this whole thing that you. were talking about, people are so mean. I remember. when people were doing snail mail and I. used to get like 10,000 letters a week. I'd find one letter that said, "I didn't. like the way you did that." I would look. that person up. I would find them. >> [laughter]. >> I would track them down. and call them up. >> [laughter].

>> And then they'd say, "Oh, Oprah, I. didn't MEAN THAT, GIRL.". I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IS YOU CALLING ME. YOU KNOW WHAT I mean? So, it it's it's. very interesting, but I I I I think all. of us have that. It's human nature. You. can have a thousand people say this was. great and then the 1001 person I'm going. to track them down. >> Oh, and I went searching. I went searching. I'm like, "It's a. black It's a gray avatar." I'm like, "Which gray avatar is this?" I was. searching trying to find it. >> Yes, I understand. I understand. So, why.

is that our human nature? You can hear a. thousand wonderful things and the one. thing is the one that sticks. >> Okay, so the the argument behind it is. from an evolutionary sense. If there was like a snake in our. environment and we ignored it, we died. And so we are the ancestors of. generation after generation after. generation of people who are. hyper-vigilant to threats. >> Ah. >> And then another aspect of that human. nature, we go to the loneliness. epidemic, is that um. again, we're the generation after. generation after generation of people.

who fit in. Because if if if, you know, throughout evolution, if you got kicked. out of the tribe, you died. And we're not a very strong species on. our own. We don't have camouflage or. wings to fly away or poison or sharp. teeth. >> We need each other. >> Our Our superhuman strength are well, our super strength as a species is. cooperation. >> The power of us. >> [laughter]. >> Um. so so when we get a signal that someone. is signaling we're not worthy.

socially, >> Ah. >> that is incredibly painful for people. psychologically. And that's why. >> primal. >> Yeah, it's very primal. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, Stacy has had also an experience. online. Take a look. >> So, some days it fascinates me how mean. people are willing to be behind a. computer. It's funny how people start to. come at your looks, your weight, your. skin, what you own, what you have, what.

you have on. Would you walk up to someone in real. life and ever say that? Are you that. miserable that you feel it necessary to. go online. with nothing to do with anything and. just speak to someone like that? Now you wonder why. women, especially, are so messed up in. the head. Be better people. Be better people.

>> [applause]. >> So, why did you post that, Stace? >> Well, it's funny. I started my account a. year ago because I was like, I'm going. to free myself of all this. And the comments are. and my voice is a little annoying, so. I'll give you that. But that's a big one. My voice is. annoying. My skin is my skin is crepey. I'm like, I'm old. You know, like people point out my age a. lot. I'm like, I know how old I am. It's.

wild what people will come for you for. And like I had someone be like, "The. meanest. I get why he left you.". I was like, "Which husband?". >> Which one? >> [applause]. >> But I and I I am compelled to answer, so. now you block. >> Yeah. >> I can't stop. >> Yeah. >> I answer everything. >> You do? >> Everything. And the meaner it is, I find. that I either have to answer.

or keep answering. I'm like, I can't stop. >> Is it your intention by answering back. to try to change their mind? >> No, you know what? I think my intention. is accountability, right? Like the. accountability of you don't just get to. say this is not a one-sided. conversation. You can't speak and drop. the mic. That's not fair. So, I think I come back to be like, "And?". And if you have enough Look, I'm smart. enough to if you say something and it's.

proper, I'll be like, "Okay.". >> Yeah. >> But, don't come at me for stuff like, "Wait is horrible.". >> Yeah. >> Cuz it does stick with you. So, my. question to you is, why do you think people are so. comfortable being mean online? They. wouldn't come up to you and say that to. your face. >> Yeah, so this is an issue again of. norms. Like, for example, when I'm at. work, people are very warm and friendly. We have like norms of professionalism, right? And then when you're online, it's. easier to to engage in the types of.

comments that you would not do in person. or at a restaurant. Sometimes this still. happens when people lash out at at at. fast food restaurant workers or or. medical staff. Um, but it's much easier. online. Um, and part of it is because we. have different norms again on that in. that situation. And so, when you're. pushing back on them, you're trying to. hold them accountable. And I and it sounds distressing. I would. not advise that from like a. psychological perspective for your own. benefit. But, it actually can be really. powerful for establishing norms. And it.

is actually more powerful if someone. steps in to help you. And even more. powerful if someone who looks like the. person is calling them out. Because we. follow the norms of people like us. And. so, if you see someone, if it's a man. doing it, it's more powerful if a man. steps in and says, "Listen, that's. really creepy or inappropriate. No one. deserves that. No one thinks it's. funny.". They're way more likely to shut down. than if you do it. And so, that's why I. call on all everybody here or watching. that we all have the power to change the.

norms. And in particular, if people like. us are doing it, it's more powerful if. we step in and help somebody else out. >> Okay. So, what is the path forward out. of this beingness? Can you give us a. reason to hope that things are going to. get better or that things can change? >> So, so I am hopeful. And I tend to be a positive person. And. so, the fact that it's gotten worse. also means it can get better. >> Yeah. And so we all have a role in creating a.

an environment we want to live in. So. online, as I've studied these dynamics. and how people harass and spread. information, I've actually changed my. own online behavior. I'm less likely to. to get in an argument or say something. mean about somebody else. um because I realize how that spreads. among other people and how it impacts. them. And so I think understanding is. the first uh thing about how this. impacts people. And then the second. thing is we all have a duty to step in. and change the norms, whether that's at. our job or in our families or um out in.

the real world or online. And so we all. have a job to do that, to create if we. want a more civil world. it's created by all of us. Um and then the last thing, as I've said. over and over again, is our leaders need. to do it. And if they're not going to do. it, we have to hold them accountable to. do it. We have to push for this and say. this is something we care about and that. we value and that we want. And that just. isn't just our political leaders, it's. our our our bosses at work.

That they have to have a no tolerance. You said that nothing happened to that. guy who. uh was it sexually harassed you. The. airline has to be, "No, you will never. fly with us ever again." Or the security. staff has to be like, "No, you can't. come to our airport ever again." And so. we have to have norms and then enforce. them, make them have real consequences. for people. >> Well, we're going to end it there and. I'll leave you with this. When I turned. 50, Maya Angelou um wrote a poem for me. and one of the lines of the short poem. called continue, you can see it online.

Uh and one of the lines in that poem is. that um my wish for you is that you. continue to astonish a mean world with. your acts of kindness. >> That's beautiful. >> And so that's my wish for all of us is. that we continue to astonish this mean. world with our acts of kindness and that. we continue to evolve into the people. that we know we deserve to be. I think. because as you were saying human nature.

hasn't changed, we all still have our. values. That's why the meanness bothers. us so much. Because we know that there's. a better way and I think instead of just. knowing that there's a better way, what. the power of us is all about is enacting. that better way for yourself and for. your friends and your community on a. daily basis. >> Yes, I agree 100% Oprah. >> Okay, well I love that. >> [laughter]. [applause]. >> A MEAN WORLD. WITH OUR ACTS OF KINDNESS.

OKAY, so you could go you could go on a. social media diet for a while. You can. have your friends over for a barbecue. You can do whatever it takes for you to. astonish a mean world with your acts of. kindness. All right, the book is called. The Power of Us. You can get it wherever you buy your. books. Thank you Dr. Jason. Thank you so. much. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> [applause]. >> Be kind. Go well everybody. Thank you Dr. Jason.

If you're part of the 53% of Americans. who feel that society has become uncivil. and want to know what we can do about. it, I encourage you to buy a copy of Dr. Jay Van Bavel's book, The Power of Us. QR code is right there on your screen. It might just give you hope for the. future. >> [music]. >> I know we all believe we can do better. You can buy the book right now by. scanning the QR code. Our listeners tell us [music] that the. podcast is resonating with you and is.

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