Wally Lamb: "The River Is Waiting" | Oprah's Book Club

[music]. Hey, I'm here with Dolly Lamb. Hey, hey, hey. [applause and music]. Nice to see y'all. I'm here with Wally. Lamb. Are you guys ready? Okay, I'm ready now. Oh, y'all look. [music] so cute. Hi there, everybody. I'm so glad to meet. up with you here for Oprah's Book Club. presented by Starbucks. WE'RE IN. SEATTLE.

[cheering]. [applause]. WHERE WE'VE had such a warm welcome at. the iconic Starbucks headquarters and. where it's also warm in Seattle and. gorgeous where Starbucks first opened. over 50 years ago. And before we get. started, I want to say for each of our. book club selections, Starbucks pairs. one of their crafted drinks. And this. month, it's an iced or chada. oat milk shaken espresso. And it's. summer's newest sip. A refreshing.

nondairy pickme up made with Starbucks. blonde espresso roast blended with. orchatada syrup which is a uh fusion of. cinnamon and vanilla and sweet rice. flavors and then shaken with ice and. topped with creamy oat milk. That sounds. so delicious. So now I want to tell you. my 115th book club selection is a novel. that stays with you in so many ways. It. is a timely story of unimaginable.

grief and loss mixed with hope, some. healing, and ultimately, I think, redemption. It is called The River is. Waiting by Wally Lamb. And I have to. tell you, this is the third time I've. chosen a Wally Lamb novel for my book. club because I just so appreciate his. writing mind. And the first was She's. Come Undone. and then his novel I know. this much is true which a whole. miniseries was made from that and now.

here we are thank you for being here. it's just it's wonderful to see you. again. oh my pleasure too it's been over 20. years since you and I talked. the first time so while he was reminding. me backstage tell we're going to tell. tell share this with the audience so. Alice McGee was the original producer. for the Oprah show who introduced this. idea of having a book club and Alice and. I as friends used to exchange books. So long before I had a book club, so the. book club started 1996 or 97. Long.

before I had a book club, Alice and I. would just read books and she'd pass off. books just like you do with your. friends. And it was Alice who said to me. one day, "Oh, you should start a book. club and we should do this on the air.". And I was like, "Alice, how are we going. to do that?" Because you can't talk. about novels unless people have read the. novels. And she said, "Ask people to. read and then bring the authors on." So. brilliant idea to this day from Alice. McGee. But before I had a book club, Alice and I would just read ourselves. And we loved authors so much. And it. used to be that in the back of the book,

there'd be a picture of the author and. the town that they lived in. Yeah. It. still says that [laughter]. you live in Connecticut and New York, but it doesn't say the town. Okay. So, it used to say the town that they lived. in. So Alice and I called information. and got your number [laughter]. from the phone book in your town. This. is before I had a book club and we just. wanted to tell you that we'd read She's. Come Undone and how much we loved it. And I remember this day because when we.

called and it's like Wally Lamb, is this. Wally Lamb? He goes, "Yes." And he was. like, "This is Oprah Winfrey and this is. Alice McGee." And you were like, "Well, I was just doing my laundry. Let me put. my basket down. And we were like, "Authors do laundry.". Do you remember that? Meanwhile, I thought I was being. pranked. Really? And well, I almost I didn't, but I. almost said, "Oh, yeah. You're Oprah and. I'm Haraldo Rivera." [laughter]. Wow. So, that was long before I even had.

a book club. And then later, like five. years later, I called you and said, "I. want to choose this book for a book. club." Yeah. So now the this audience has read The. River is Waiting and I hear you loved. it. Hannah, where are you? I loved this book, Wally. And you know, um, for me, although there were dark. moments, there were tragic moments. What. what I loved about it was that it really. explored the human experience in the. rawest form. Sorrowness and sadness is. something we all experience. and Emily.

demonstrated moving on and you know. lessons learned and and really how to. build a path forward even after a lot of. tragedy. So, thank you for writing the. book. All right. All right, Elizabeth. How. about you? I also really love this book. Uh it. definitely was an emotional roller. coaster reading it. It was a very. amazing journey to watch this character. and how he developed and you really felt. like you're rooting for a flawed. individual and like it's okay to be. flawed but you still have hope. So, it. was very uplifting.

You know, I never know where my story is. going. I I start with a character that. I'm worried about. And um so I'm I'm I. was hopeful, but I wasn't sure, you. know, what his path was going to be. I I. sometimes I'm envious of people who. write novels by starting with an outline. and they know what they're driving. toward. Doesn't work that way for me. It doesn't. So, you started with this. character. Mhm. But you didn't know where he was. going. No. How did you know this character?

Um, well, first of all, I before I knew. the character, I knew the tragedy. I had. been thumbming through a newspaper and I. read about uh back over uh tragedies um. where whereby um you know, a toddler is. behind the car and the parent usually. the parent doesn't see him and uh runs. back over their child. Yes. Yeah. And um in the article I read they. said that one out of 10 kids who are.

backed over does not survive. Now at the. time we had our first grandchild who was. a toddler. and I was so petrified when I read about. that because I had just bought a car. that has a backup camera. Um but I knew that my son, the father of. this little boy, we lived down in New. Orleans. And so I called him up and I. said, "Jared, if you come up here, if. you fly up, I'll give you my car. It's. got a backup camera and just drive, you. can drive it back and I'll just get. another car." And so he did that. And.

um, you know, and I I felt a little bit. more relaxed. Yeah, those backup cameras have made a. huge difference. Um, I want you watching and listening to. read and enjoy this utterly compelling. book. So, we'll try not to give too much. away in this conversation, but the story. revolves somebody who needed a backup. camera. It revolves around Corby, a husband and. father of two young children who was. just laid off from his job and he starts.

drinking during the day and taking. prescription pills to deal with the. stress while his wife Emily is working. like crazy to support the family. And I. think this is a timely topic for the. millennial generation who are facing so. many challenges. How does this writing. process work for you? You were saying. that you'd seen all of these stories. about backups, but how did Corby come. into your view?

Well, you know, I'm not a I'm not a very. good I'm not very good at math. Usually. with my other books, I uh made the main. character my age, so I wouldn't have to. do a whole lot of research. Um but uh I. this character um is my kid's age, you. know, and um. and so I started with that and um and I. I just I began worrying about him. And I. know that, you know, lots of times I'm. just spinning my wheels when I'm going.

to write a new novel. And um so um but. this one sort of you know it took off. It came because you were reading these. articles about people losing their. children, right, for lack of a back backup camera. But also um with this book, I had just. finished up a 20-year volunteer teaching. position at a women's prison in. Connecticut. And so I had all of their. stories in my head, too. You know, how. how is it that you end up in prison and. what happens to you when you get there?

M. So, for those of you who haven't. read, our audience has already read. So, let me just tell you, a tragedy occurs. while the main character, Corby, is home. with the kids. Ultimately, he's charged. in the accidental death of his. 2-year-old son, Nico, and goes to. prison. So, you end up exploring the arc. of Corby's experience in prison. I was. surprised because you've done all of. this work teaching writing at a women's. prison that you didn't do a female.

character who had, you know, was. accused. Mhm. Um. why did you choose a man's prison? That was just who came to me, Corby. And. um and my rationale was that okay, men's. prisons and women's prisons are. different in a lot of ways, but um in a. lot of ways they're the same. you know. that whole thing of um you know should. prison punish or should it try to. rehabilitate and uh I think that I think. that happens in in both institutions.

that there's a combination of punishment. and rehabilitation right is there a lot. of rehabilitation going on. um I one of my one of my prison students. Tabitha. um she had a a brother who was uh. murdered and she went you know after. she's out of prison she went to the. sentencing hearing and she said to the. guy who was go, you know, the murderer, she said, "When you go in there," and. she was shaking her hand, her finger. She says, "When you go in there, um, don't waste your time. Fix yourself.".

And um and so I think what I what I. picked up from that is that if you're. going to re rehabilitate in prison, you. got to do the heavy lifting because you. know there may be there may be uh you. know psychiatrists, there may be uh you. know programs, rehabilitative program, but you know unless you invest. wholeheartedly. Yeah. Everyone I've ever spoken to who's. been in prison ends up doing that for. themselves. they have, including Nelson.

Mandela, who said he made a decision to. become a different man in. [clears throat] prison, and he had been. imprisoned, as we know, unjustly, but. that he used prison as a time to work on. himself, evolve himself, and become a. better man. And so, this audience has great questions for. you, Wally. Tiana, where are you? Right here. Hi, there you go. Hi. Hi, Tiana. Um, so honored to be here. Thank. you for having me. Thank you. I experienced a lot of grief. and loss in my childhood and I lost both.

my parents by age 11. So reading this. book, it really brought up reflection on. my own journey and seeking enlightenment. and just clarity in any way I can. So I. was wondering while riding the river is. waiting, did you learn anything new. about yourself or the human condition? Um, I did learn about myself. Um uh I. learned to be more angry than I had been. about about social injustice. Um and um.

I you know I had always disapproved of. racism and social injustice but I didn't. um I didn't invest my anger so much. Um. and then of course working for 20 years. with the women at the prison and hearing. their stories. Um, see it's to me I. think that I think the theme is about. power and powerlessness and. powerlessness and the and the abuse of. power and uh you know I see that you.

know whether it's the schoolyard bully. or you know the abusive spouse or uh you. know the verbal abuser uh or a. government um can um can abuse power. So. I was more emotionally I am more. emotionally invested uh than perhaps I. used to be. Thank you. More so even than all the years of. working with all these women in prison. because as we stated earlier you had a. writing program volunteered as a teacher.

for 20 years teaching women in prison. how to write their own stories. And I would think you would see so much. and hear so much and in reading their. stories and you would be outraged by the. injustices so many of them suffered. Right. And so writing this book was even. more compelling. It uped the ante for me. Yes. It uped. the ante. Yeah. And so I mean I when I started I I. I was in college in the late 60s early. 70s. So you know protest was a part of.

you know my experience uh Vietnam and. civil rights and all that stuff. But um. but yeah I I get out there now. You get out there in terms of protest or. you get out there in terms of your. writing? Both. Both. Both. We have a judge in our audience. Hello, Judge Galban. And you're you're. in the criminal justice system. And what. do you want to say about this? Well, I I do want to say that for me, um. the themes that you explore in your. novel are what I do every single day. And I think the trying to render.

judgment within the context of an. analytical framework that I'm obligated. to do and pass judgment, not pass. judgment on somebody's humanity are are. two very different things that I hold. But I did have a a question for you. Um, the concept of justice was what drew me. to the to the novel throughout it. I you. tend to avoid these types of novels. because of the work that I do daily. Sure. But I was fascinated by the context. But. for me, I I found it difficult. I kept. asking myself, where's the river? What's. the river? And so at the end, what I drew from it.

was it's a metaphor for justice. It's. constantly present, consistently. flowing, and it cleanses the land and. the people around it. and it was such a. part of that mural and and it is a. title. Was that your intent um in in. calling it, you know, that's that's that's really. sharp reading. Um it was it it was uh it. was not my original intent. That's sharper than anything I came up. with. [laughter]. I'm like usually I'm like really.

is that what the river was? I thought. the river was actually the river. [laughter]. Well, that too. Not the river. No. Was. the river where he put his hands in the. water and the whole thing. Okay. Yeah. But I but I um but that's a that's. a metaphor I sort of came up with as I. was writing the novel. Yeah. Yeah. So uh. did the river represent all that to you? Uh toward the end. Yes, it did. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Judge Galan. Good.

But did you think as a judge should he. have been in in prison for that? I think. punishment is a complex question. I. think the ideas of retribution, which is. kind of how our system is set up, is. very complex. Do we want retribution or. do we want to welcome people back into. the community? And why would people want. to come back into a community that. doesn't allow them to get a job, to rent. a house, to engage in society in fully. and fairly? And so those are very. difficult questions. Is the punishment. fair? Would it have been different if.

somebody else's child had died? Mhm. And those are all, I think, questions. that we wrestle with certainly in my. work. But I'm really happy that you. wrote this because I I hope that as. people look at our system of justice and. uh form opinions about what we do that. they think that context and nuance is. extraordinarily important and so are. facts. Oh, amen to that. Yeah, I agree. We had. a um we have three sons and the youngest. is our adopted son and uh he has gone to. prison. Um and uh and I remember.

standing in front of the judge when I. was you know supporting you know him and. I said judge I uh your honor I don't. think I I don't really think prison does. a whole lot to rehabilitate people and. he said yes but it's also there to. punish people too. So I think that. balance you know that uh you know that. that okay you I you know I tend to be. you know like oh yeah prison is bad. because it doesn't rehabilitate but it. was it was good to be um reminded of uh.

that it's also for punishment right. and what was your son being punished. for? Uh he was there for um he was he was. addicted to drugs and he was there for. uh theft. Theft. Yeah. M. So, what made you have Corby have this. drinking problem that he was hiding? What was where did that come from? Uh, some of that came uh. autobiographically. Um, I was a late bloomer to um uh my.

problem with alcohol. I I went from. being an enthusiastic drinker to a. problem drinker in my 50s. and uh and. and so. I the you know when when he begins to um. work on his rehabilitation you know. going to he steps into a 12step program. and then uh keeps that up when he gets. to prison. Um you know I've been in. those rooms I've been in those rooms and.

so um you know I was able to rrestle my. problem to the to the ground. to this point. Uh but I know that uh you. know in. it's an ongoing wrestling Yeah. Yeah. to. the ground. Yeah. But they say, you know, while. you're in the church basement, your. addiction is uh doing push-ups out in. the parking lot. So, you know, you you. have to be you have to be on guard at. all times. I'd never heard that before. That's. interesting. While you're in the church. basement meeting for AA or whatever,

your addiction's out there ready for. you, waiting for you when you come out. of the door. Yeah. Yeah. Corby's wife, Emily, is devastated. by the loss of Nico and is left to raise. Nico's twin sister, Macy, alone. And we. feel Emily's grief profoundly. I mean, I. understood it. Didn't you all? Uh, and. here's uh what she tells their. therapist, Dr. Patel, on page 106. Turning to Emily, Patel asks whether. there's anything else she wants to say.

to me. She nods, turns, and looks me in. the eye. Her words are more measured. now, more sad than angry. People lose. jobs all the time without falling apart. and causing everything else to fall. apart around them. She says, without. causing the death of one of their. children. I just can't imagine how I'm. ever going to be able to forgive you so. that we can salvage what's left. And. I'll be honest with you, Corby, I'm not. sure I want to. I felt like I was in the. room with them during that scene. How. how did that scene take shape in your. mind?

Um well I work in a writer group and. have been have for years you know worked. with other writers and um I was. interested when I was writing some of. the first chapters before that that. scene was written that uh that some of. the writers um were not forgiving of. Corby. They didn't like you know they. didn't like the guy. They didn't think. he should be forgiven. And um so that. sort of her you know her reaction uh. sort of came from them you know they.

they were they were kind of educating me. and these were women in the group uh who. were like not you know didn't think that. forgiveness was appropriate. What did you all think? Did you think. forgiveness was appropriate? Answer. That's a really tough one. Um, this. actually leads to a question that I had. for for Wally, but um, you know, uh, telling the story from the perspective. of the father versus the mother was. really interesting to me. Um, in fact,

there's there's a quote in your book. that um, that really stood out to me. If. if you don't mind, I'll I'll read it. Um, it's all women visiting tonight, wives, girlfriends, moms. I think women. are just braver than men. They'll put up. with the pain of seeing one of their own. stuck inside this place out of love. Most men won't or can't. Instead, they. make excuses. And that really struck me as, you know,

what is the difference? What made you. choose to tell this story from the. perspective of a father versus the. mother? Yeah, there's an there's an. interesting that's an interesting. question for me because when I started. this novel in the f in first draft form. like maybe I had I had about a third of. it done. Um it wasn't just from his. point of view, it was from his and. Emily's point of view. So, and it. teetered back and forth, one chapter. his, one chapter hers, and so forth. And. um then I started working with a really. gifted uh editor and publisher uh Mary.

Sue Ruchi and she was the one who said. to me um you know really it's they're. kind of fighting each other for point of. view. She said I think it should be just. in his point of view and you could get. her from you know his perspective and uh. I remember at first I thought to myself. oh yeah sure I'll just rewrite the whole. damn thing. Uh yeah, and but but of. course, you know, the next day happened. and I'm like, damn, she's right. And so.

so that's when, you know, his his. viewpoint took over the story. Um she. gets a little bit at the end, but yeah, it's primarily his story. Yeah. But I you know, I think I don't. know what you all felt, but I felt more. empathy for him as the novel progressed, as we learned more about who he really. was. I felt more empathy. But in the. beginning, I was very judgmental. Yeah. I was like, if you hadn't have been. drinking, this wouldn't have happened.

and you deserve to go to to be punished. Yeah. And um I thought that too. I. wasn't sure. And ultimately, I think I. challenged the readers um to decide. where they land on this. you know, is it. is it unforgivable what he's done. despite the fact that, you know, he had. a tough childhood, the that, you know, that his mother, you know, uh smoked. weed and his father was, you know, uh. kind of unrelentingly. um you know, uh.

you can't get away with hiding the. drinks, right? You can't you you're not going to get. away with it. Eventually, something bad. is going to happen. Yeah. So, what would have pulled him up? I. mean, what what what would would have. turned him around? Well, you know, um because I understand. addiction, you know, from the inside. Yes. You know, particularly alcohol. addiction. Um it's not that easy to say, "Okay, this is bad for me. It's bad for. my family. I'm just going to stop." You. know,

can't do that. You know, you got to. really work at it. And you got to you. got to out yourself to other people and. say, "I need help." Mhm. Uh I hear you started a project called. the Silent Book Club. Is it that's what. it's called? That's true. Yeah. What is that? So the Silent Book Club, it's a global. community of readers. We have almost. 2,000 local chapters around the world, 55 countries. Wow. And groups of people come together. They. bring whatever it is they're reading.

They meet in public places like cafes, like a Starbucks. Like a Starbucks. Yes. public library, independent bookstores, and they chat. about books, they swap books, and then. they read quietly for one hour. Wow, that's cool. Oh, that's like my house. Yeah, [laughter]. but it gives, you know, it gives people. an opportunity to actually get out of. the house and to connect with other. people who have a shared passion for. books. Um, and it really brings people.

together, uh, in a way that that I think. that, you know, we're really seeking. now. You know, I mean, I think so many. people are stuck to their phones, their. screens. Social media has actually. disconnected us from each other. And so, yeah, the really the goal of of Silent. Book Club is to bring people together in. person. So, you come and you come with whatever. book you're reading. Yep. U bring your. own book. Bring your own book. And there's not a. designated book for the month. There is no assigned reading. Yeah. We. we say we there's no homework for Silent.

Book Club. And you're just chatting. Yeah. So, I mean, one of the things that. I love about it is it's a great place to. pick up book recommendations. So, much. the way that you and your friend Alice. started your book club. So, this started. with just me and my friend Laura. And. every time we met up, we would have a. book with us. We would share what we. were reading and, you know, and it. actually was a book club assignment. that, you know, we hadn't finished the. book in time and we were worried about, you know, and I said, "God, I wish we could just. have a book club where we could get. together and actually just read the. book." And um but I love it because I.

always get recommendations of what. everyone else is reading. It's like a. human algorithm. If I wanted to join, where would I go. to? Silentbook club. So we have a map on our website, silentbook.cl club. Um and there are. chapters on every continent except. Antarctica. So if you're watching from. Antarctica today, please, you know, give. us a call. Okay. [laughter]. Yeah, they could use some books in. Antarctica. Yeah. [laughter]. And some heat. And some heat. Well, you know, as I was. reading um this book, uh it brought up. so many memories of all the real life.

stories. I remember when I called you, I. told you I remember this grandmother who. had backed up in her driveway and killed. her grandson. And she said, "I will. never get over it, so there's no need to. even talk to me about it." Well, there. are so many real life moms and dads that. I met on the Oprah show who had. accidentally killed their their. children. Those stories still haunt me. And uh I have to say that my intention. behind sharing those stories then and. today was to find deeper meaning in the.

tragedy and to offer that wisdom to you, the viewers, the audience. And I've. never forgotten Teresa Burch's story. So. let's take a look. Terresa Burch knows. firsthand what it is like to feel. responsible for your own child's death. She is sharing her story and the lessons. she learned there in hopes of healing. other mothers who are burdened with this. same guilt. We had six little children. The oldest.

was seven. After a family vacation, Teresa was. driving her children home to be with her. husband, Richard. After several hours on. the road, the lines on the highway. seemed [music]. monotonous. All the kids had fallen asleep in the. car except for Ryan. I knew I was. getting tired, but I didn't know it was. getting [music] that bad. Fighting sleep, Teresa planned to stop. at the next area to take a break. The. cruise control was on. All she had to do. was steer, keep her eyes on the road, and drive a few more minutes. But in the.

blink of an eye, they were plunging. toward disaster. I. dozed off at the wheel. I fell asleep. As soon as the wheels left [music] the. road, woke with a start and thought, "Got to get the car stopped." Things. were so fast. They hit the guard rail, then catapulted. into the air and headed down a ravine. with her six children strapped in their. seats. We flew through the air. And as we were. flying, I saw water. And I was [music]. unlocking the doors and undoing my seat.

belt so we could get in and get the. kids. And as soon as we hit the water, instantly the water and the current and. [music] all that pressure, the. windshield broke. It was so disorienting. and so fast and powerful. The water. actually pushed me through that into the. back seat. Our son Matthew, who had just. turned two, was in his car seat, and he. reached out and grabbed my arm, unbuckled his car seat, and got him out. And and then I couldn't get the door. open. And I I thought in my mind, Richard's going to lose his whole.

family. I thought I thought he was going to lose. everyone. I was able finally to get the door open. against the current, which I think in. itself was a miracle, and was able to. get out with Matthew. And I was just. screaming, "There are five more babies. in the car. There's five more babies.". After watching an excruciating 20. minutes of frantic work, rescuers. reached the two oldest children, Ryan. and Julie. And they weren't immediately conscious, but you could see they were alive. It.

was like getting two back that I was. sure were dead. But three other children. died. I can remember looking up at where my. car had come from saying, "I've killed. my children.". At the hospital, the phone call was. placed to Teresa's husband. And I'd [music] had to tell him that his. beautiful little Katie with her blue. eyes and blonde hair was gone. And Jonathan with his big brown eyes was. gone. And Jacob, our little baby, was.

gone. All Richard said was, "Are you okay?". [music] My husband kept telling me, "There's nothing to be forgiven for. It's just an accident.". If I had placed judgment at all, I think. it would have just destroyed her. I think that a huge part of my healing. was being able [music] to accept my own. humanness, that I'm prone to mistakes, just like every other person that walks. on the earth. We had a wonderful friend.

speak at our children's [music] funeral. He said, "You could kill yourself if you. kept asking what if." He said, "Instead, you have to ask, so now [music] what?". And we did. When time passed, and I. started to forget. That was another. point of guilt. Dear Katie, I remember so well the way. you did. A friend gave them a family journal so. they could write down memories of. Jonathan, Katie, and Jacob. Weren't we having a good time? Do you. remember? It was very therapeutic [music].

and very healing. And it's not that we. forget them or that they're any less. part of our family, but just [music]. that we can go on and to have new. experiences and that those can be good. Wow. Teresa and her daughter Julie are. here along with Richard. Julie is one of. the children who survived that accident. It's nice to see you all again. Thank. you for being here. It's been 34 years. since that happened and 25 years since.

you were on the Oprah show. Thank you. for agreeing to be here to talk to us. today and to show us that healing can. occur and that you can you can go on. How are you? Well, that was rough to watch. Yeah, I can imagine. But on a daily basis, I would say I'm. [clears throat] I'm joyful. Um, we have a happy life. And I think I I. think part of that that I mentioned.

about accepting my own humanness. has made it so I. have no right to judge anyone else for. anything. No matter what I see, it's. like. we're all human and we all have so many. frailties. I heard uh that it took you two years. for you to realize that you didn't need. to forgive yourself. But what did you. decide you needed to do? More that I needed to accept.

who I am. Accept that. people have things go wrong all the time. and a lot of times we get away with it. and it was not the case. in this situation. And the fact that. those three beauties are gone. Mhm. is so hard. But I also had to look. forward our faith. Our faith has us hope for families being. together forever. And our faith there there's a quote in.

our faith that says men are that they. might have joy. And that kept going. through my mind and I kept thinking I'm. not feeling joy right now. I'm feeling. absolute devastation and. crushing agony. And yet I could not accept that that joy. was just for some future life that was. out of my reach. That there had to be a. way to find joy. And we kept kept. believing, kept loving, and we have. found joy. And you had more children.

We did. We had three more children. You did. Julie, I heard that you were. around 6 years old when this happened, right? And you've only recently. discovered how the trauma of that day. has lived inside you. What have you. discovered? Yeah. That um that the body keeps the. score, as they say. That is proven true in my life as an. adult. Just a few years ago, I decided. to do some therapy for reasons unrelated.

to this, I thought. But through that, through some like some neuro feedback. and some EMDR, uh like connections were made. I I was. able to see connections how this. traumatic experience as a child. is affecting how my brain is processing. life now. even like to the point like I'm a light. sleeper and I'm always on high alert and. you know like feeling danger when my. eyes are closed. I mean not consciously. feeling danger but. that stemmed from this experience or.

because you didn't consciously remember. the accident. I remember the accident but I hadn't. connect. process the trauma of. Yeah. And I thought because we have our. faith because we. we talk about the kids like it's not. something that we break down and cry. about every time we speak. Like it's. part of our experience. Yes. And you all grew up talking about. Jonathan and Katie and Jacob in the. family. They still were considered a. part of the family even though they were. gone. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. And I thought that meant like. we're good. We're handling it. It's. handled. And then as an adult to make. these connections of like questioning. myself and like self-doubt and did I do. that right and through like almost to a. to a fault to an to an excess and then. to make this connection during one EMDR. session that that was stemming back to. subconsciously this experience in the. car like I'm 6 years old I'm above the. water I'm not dying and my siblings are. under the water and should I have helped.

them? This was not a conscious question. that I had ever. Yeah. asked myself or that anyone around me. had ever tried to make me feel bad. about. But my body had held on to this. That's right. That's right. This question. cuz the body does keep the score. It does. I thought it was so striking in that. piece, Richard, that you said if you had. judged her that would have been the end. That and that and that that there was no. judgment. You know, this is the kind of. thing I did 4,561 Oprah shows and did so.

many stories about tragic things that. had happened. And in many, many, many, many cases, actually, most of them, where there's been a tragedy like this, people end up breaking up. They split. up. The families fall apart. They end up. like Emily in in in the novel. So, why. was there you you never had any. judgment? I guess Teresa is my best friend and my. sweetheart. Mhm. And. I I knew it was something that obviously.

would not happen on purpose. Yeah. Um. and I didn't have the right to choose or. to judge, but to support and you know those. children are still part of our lives. like they were. Mhm. And as Julie was saying, you and we. learn from our experiences. And so don't judge, but live for each. day. And.

choose what you can. Choose to to face. every challenge the best way you can. Wow. Woof. Woof. That is amazing. That is. amazing. Well, we're happy that you were able to. move on and have and have a life that. brought you joy. And I hear you're going. to now have your 24th grandchild. Wow. Your 24th grandchild. Pretty amazing.

[applause]. Well, Shazik is here and she's here to. share the story of her three-year-old. son, Yori, 7 years ago when he drowned. in a backyard swimming pool. tell us. what happened that day. Um, it was kind of a day like any other, honestly. And we were going on kind of a. playd date with some preschool friends. And everything just happened so quickly. I have four boys. I had four boys in.

five and a half years. So, we're all We get there, jump in the. pool, and Yori was playing on the stairs. I. was with my one-year-old on the side. There were four adults and seven. children between us. There were some. adults in the pool. and Yori at some point was face down in. the water. It was just a matter of not. watching. Um it was very quick, very. quiet. And um. I think that's an important point. It.

was very quick, but it was also very. quiet cuz everybody always thinks. there's going to be a big loud noise or. you're going to hear it. You're going to. have the thing. And it was very quiet. It's very quiet. face down in the pool. and the paramedics arrived and they got. him to the hospital and you know you do. everything you can but talk about. powerless as a parent and at some point. the doctors you know said he's he's gone.

and he was able to um at least donate. his organs but um leaving that hospital. I felt so much of Emily's is. just the struggle, right, of leaving. without a child. Mhm. And you, cuz I saw your TED talk, um. were faced with the guilt of it all. You. judged yourself for looking away. Well, for sure. I um I had a life jacket.

there and I said, "Hey, I have a life. jacket, but he's on the stairs. There's. adults there. I'm not thinking to put a. life jacket on." if I would have put a. life jacket on, my son would still be. here. And so, um, yeah, it's something you. think about daily. And you you and you had confidence like. seven kids and four adults and some. adults in the pool. You would have. confidence that your child is being. watched the whole time. Yeah. That's what happens with water and. drownings that happen all the time, right? You think someone else is.

watching. Yes. And as you said in your TED talk, I. didn't realize this. Children between. what age and what age? That's the number. one cause of death. Yeah. So, children one to four, it's the. number one reason uh they die. Actually, it's the number two reason. I mean, I. could go on and on with all of the. statistics, but it's just something that. happens so often, but um when you lose. children in a way like this, it's not. something you go out talking about. You. don't want to say, "Hey, my kid. drowned.". Don't let your child drown. But that's.

something that I have done because I. don't want it to happen to other. families and people. Um because it it. happens more than you know. Even those. safe call like those close calls that. we've all had, you don't talk about it. or think about that. You know, I did not know that it was the number. one cause of death for children one to. four. Did you all know that? That Yeah. Yeah. And it's just because for a split. second you look away and and that's all. it takes. Yeah. Well, bathtubs, toilets, we can go.

on and on. Mhm. And so you've become a. vocal advocate for water safety. Tell us. what that means. So I um founded an organization called. No More Under um and simultaneously made. a film called Drowning in Silence. Kind. of just um sharing my story, other. family stories. And with No More Under. in particular, um we do advocacy work. and also just make sure that children. have access to water. black and brown. families in particular um because of. racism um often don't know how to swim.

and don't have the access and so we um. get free swim lessons. Yeah. I I I heard in your TED talk 67%. of black people don't know how to swim. and that's based on all the generations. who weren't even allowed in a public. swimming pool for years because of. segregation. That's right. So it's a cultural thing you come up not. being around swimming pools. swimming is. not a part of your culture. And here we. are. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's just been, like I said, it's.

it's a way to keep Yori. in the world. Like, we say his name. He's helping so many children. We've had. thousands of children go through our. swim lessons. And um I just know his. life is making a difference. And where his organs did I I I heard. that his organs went to that his heart. is in a little girl. Yeah. How does that. make you feel? On his birthday this year, I was driving.

and I saw, you know, the Northwest Life. um the place where we donated his organ. and I just know that I'm supposed to. reach out, you know, to them, but the. family is in Portland. We've. communicated, but we just haven't met. I. think I'm nervous to meet someone that. has a piece of him. Um but it it will happen when it's. supposed to. It will happen. will happen. You read. The River is waiting. Were you able to. get through it without breaking down? It was tough. Yeah, it was tough.

I just I related on both sides a little. bit, you know? Yeah. Just the realness. that you brought to those characters. Um. it was the things that I was thinking so. often. And I know we're not ruining it, but that end the ending for me. Mhm. Um cuz again, you just you want your. child to live on in any way and so yeah, thank you. Thank you for for getting through it.

Thank you, Shazik, for being here with. us and sharing your story. So on page. 365, you write, "Can a man who caused the. death of his children atone enough to be. forgiven? Is absolution ever possible? What do you think? I think it is possible, but I did understand. um Emily's refusal to.

uh to forgive and also um her refusal to. bring their surviving daughter to the. prison. so that he could save. So that you know. that's partly I think her anger but also. um. I think if he hadn't been drinking she. would have it would have been an easier. thing if it was just an accident. definitely. she don't you all think so if it was. just an accident cuz you all cuz you all. feel that way too if it was just an. accident you could say. absolutely find find it in your heart to.

do that but the the drinking also felt. like a betrayal. Yes. like and and also. the lying about looking for the job and. you weren't really looking for the job. So, he turns out not to be the person I. thought you were. Right. That's what. that is, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. WM, thank you so much. Thank you. for this book and all the incredible. books you've given us over the years. Thank you. Uh it's a soul stirring novel and um. thank you all for your insightful. questions and for reading the book. The.

Rivers Waiting is available now wherever. books are sold. And before we go, I want. to share I recently published this. little um it's called the book lovers. journal and it's for people who love to. read as much as I do. It's a great gift. for the reader in your life. Oprah's. book lovers journal is available. anywhere you buy books and you're all. going to go home with a copy. [applause]. And I want to give a double shot of. gratitude to our phenomenal partners at.

Starbucks for supporting our community. of book lovers. No need to read alone. Head to your neighborhood Starbucks. cafe. Bring your book. Have good coffee. and good company. Thank you so much. everybody. Go well. [applause].