Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club

[music]. Everybody, it's Tina. [cheering]. It's Tina. [cheering]. [applause]. The beehive is buzzing in here. Y'all. doing it? Hi everybody. [music] Thank you so much. for taking the time to join us on this. podcast. Welcome to Oprah's Book Club. presented by Starbucks. We're here in a. Starbucks cafe in my old Chicago. neighborhood. I spent so many mornings.

and nights, 25 years, walking my dogs. all around this neighborhood. It feels. so good to be back with you all. And I. have to say, I love this idea of meeting. a friend at your neighborhood Starbucks. cafe to connect over a book and a. delicious cup of coffee or tea. I think. it's a great way to spend a morning or. afternoon. And the pairing for my. April's book club is the Sincara blend. It's a nice light coffee, a Starbucks. blonde roast with citrus and toasted.

almonds. Yummy, yummy, yummy. Toasted. almonds in your coffee. Don't you love. that? And now I'm just so happy to be. here to tell you what my 113th. book club pick is. It's an intimate and. revealing look into an extraordinary. American life and family. It is a memoir. and it is a page turner about legacy. It's about love. It's about loss. It's.

about perseverance and the wisdom that. is passed down through generations, especially from mother to daughter. It's. called MATRIARCH. [applause and cheering]. and we have the matriarch, Miss Tina. [applause]. First of all, I was saying this to your. editor that this is a beautiful book. talking about you can't judge a book by. a cover. I think you can. This is pretty. good. Well, I love this artist. He's an.

African artist in Legos and I've got. several paintings from him and he always. puts cherry blossoms behind it. and his paintings remind me of my mom. You know, I grew up in this little. raggedy house, but my mom had the most. beautiful rose bushes and she just had. this green thumb and and there were. flowers everywhere. We always had flower. wallpaper and you know, flowers were so. representative of her and her spirit. Yeah. Well, you know, you are obviously.

one of the most recognizable and beloved. mothers. So, it is no surprise to me. that this book hit number one on the. Amazon charts the moment it was. announced. Matriarch is the perfect. title for your story. Why were you ready. to share it now? Well, you know, I thought I'd never do a. memoir because, as you know, my family. is super uh private, more so than me, but I always felt like I had to protect.

everybody and not talk about things. And. there have been so many narratives about. me and my family, so many. misconceptions, so many lies that I. decided one day, you know, do I want. people to tell my story uh after I'm. gone and create their own narrative or. should I tell it? So that was very very. important to me that I got the story out. myself. Well, one of the things that I. thought you did that was so admirable in. Matriarch is that you tell your story.

and we are fully engaged in your story. and all the people that are in your. life. Obviously, your ex-husband. and. [laughter]. uh ex-husbands and your your two very. famous daughters, but you also don't. expose their lives in a way that it. feels invasive to them. You come away. with a great sense of how first of all,

you all got to be who you are. And in. Matriarch, you tell us about the mothers. that came before you. And I want to list. them. You are the daughter of Agnes. and the granddaughter of Odilia, the great granddaughter of Celestine, which was your original your original. name, who had 10 children by her slave owner. and the great great granddaughter of. Rosalie, who was also an enslaved woman.

Yes. And one of the most sacred things. that Maya Angelou had shared in one of. her poems called grandmother, she says, "I come as one, but I stand as 10,000.". And in this book, Matriarch, we get to. see how you came as yourself as this. fearless woman, but of all the people, particularly the matriarchs behind you. that allowed you to stand. How were you. able to discover so much about the. matriarchs in your family?

Well, just research. I was amazed by. their resilience and their ability to. still take care of their kids and make. sure that they weren't sold or separated. from them. Well, I have to say that the story that. your mother and father were from Weeks. Island, Louisiana. Your father worked in. a salt mine making $9 a week. Your. parents' story was so harrowing. I've. been every anytime I ask anybody I I.

would start talking about this book and. I would say and you got to hear the. story about her parents. Can you tell us. about your father going to the mine that. day and your father and another man. because they were the lowest on the. totem pole in the work order were. carrying the dynamite and there was an. explosion and your father was in the. explosion and the parts of the mine. crumbled and they weren't going to dig. for anybody and then well they just.

didn't dig for people. They said there. was no way that they could survive. And. his brothers were like, "We'll do it. You guys don't have to do it." But they. put them out. And so they snuck back in. after they closed. They blew the whistle. at three and they dug my daddy and the. other man out. So they saved them. And. instead of being applauded for it, which. you would think that they would have. been, they were actually arrested and. fired and and told that they had gone. against company policy by going back to. get your father. Yes.

And so then this is what got me. Your. father then uh a union man comes along. and starts talking to your father about. well if you had been a part of the union. that wouldn't have happened to you. right. The town ownersh. the bosses in charge realize that the. union man has been to see your father. and somebody ends up bombing the house. Yes. They threw a fire bomb. They threw a fire bomb in the house and. their parents had to escape. Yes. And that's how your parents ended.

up in Galveston. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And your father ended up becoming a long. shoreman and your mother was a. seamstress. Yes. Yeah. So you're the baby of seven children. And you paint this vivid picture that. you said you didn't feel like you were. poor. Although you all didn't have much. You said you felt like y'all were. millionaires, right? Yeah. Because of all the camaraderie cuz. my sister had eight kids and my brother. had four and they all came to our house. So for me, even though we had this. really poor little raggedy house,

everybody was at our house. And so I. just felt like, how could you feel bad. about that? Because we just created our. own playground, our own world. And um I. just never really thought about being. poor till, you know, I went to Catholic. school and I was pointed out to me every. day how poor we were and how unworthy we. were. You and I are born three weeks apart. I was same age, born three weeks apart. And I was raised in the south, but I got. out. My grandmother became ill and I was.

sent to live with my mother in Milwaukee. just before I started school. Wow. So, as I was reading your story, I was. thinking, "Wow, not being raised in a. segregated school is the thing that made. all the difference for me. It's the. thing that really gave me confidence. because when I first moved to Milwaukee. and I walked into kindergarten and I saw. all these little kids reading, learning. their ABCs, I was already a reader cuz. my grandmother taught me how to read the.

Bible, right? So, I was like, I'm. getting myself out of here. [laughter]. You had a very different story. Your. story was the Catholic church is across. the street from your house and run by. black Catholic nuns. M and when you go. to this school, this is a school that. the teachers kids, the doctor's kids, the people who had, you know, higher. paying jobs could afford to send their. children to Catholic school. Your. mother, who was a seamstress, had y'all.

dressed like Beyonce every day. [laughter]. You were dressed like Beyonce, and your. name was Beyonce because that's your. maiden name. Yes. And you go to school as this pretty. little curly cut-haired girl and the nun. says to you what on the first day, well, you don't belong here. You know, if you only knew. And I was like, what? What does that mean? I had no idea what. that. And you were how old? I was five. Can you imagine going to school and the.

first and the your first teacher says to. you, you don't belong here. You don't. belong here. Yeah. Yeah, that's a life-defining moment. It is. Yeah, it is. And it was the. source of my insecurity my whole life. is not belonging. or people making up their mind about you. before they even know you. And it's. still I'm 71 and it's still making me. emotional right now because it was such. a. it's just such a horrible evil thing to.

say to a kid cuz you're already insecure. about everything. Yeah. Well, but it made me fight though. And also, well, it made you a fighter. That's so interesting that it made you a. fighter because, you know, I when I read. that story, I thought I would have. shrunk. It would have made me so. insecure because I was raised like your. mother was raised. I was raised to. respect authority and if authority said. this, then you got to obey and you got. to, you know, color within the lines and.

not break the rules. It did the opposite. to you. It made you fearless and a. fighter. It did the opposite to me. because also my parents were 44 when. they had me and I realized that after. seven kids and all the struggles they. were just tired. [clears throat] So I. just had this mouth on me from day one. and they you know I remember my aunt. used to come over and she would be like. that teeny got the you just need to. discipline her because she has no. respect. But it wasn't respect. if she. said something, I said, "Why?" I.

questioned her. And my parents allowed. me just cuz they were tired and I had a. smart mouth. And I also realized in this. book that because my mother was passive. Yeah. to everyone, I used to get so angry at. her for being so passive. And you know, I could tell her that and my mom would. just say, "Oh, be quiet, Teenie." And I. remember us going to like a young white. woman's house and her calling my mom. Agnes. They always called her Agnes and.

she said, "Miss Smith, Miss." And I I. was just a little kid, but I would be. like, "She's younger than you. You. should tell her to call you Miss." And. my mom would say, "Tinie, shut up. You. just got the biggest mouth.". Well, you know, several things I thought. were defining moments. There is a story. where the nun punishes you. and you run across the street to home. thinking your mother is going to stand. up for you and instead. and instead my mom says I said I don't.

like them and they're really mean and I. don't want to go cuz I thought it was. optional and she said oh you don't have. a choice you have to go back and she. brought me back across the street well. another huge defining moment I thought. was and I couldn't believe this that. your mom didn't stand up for you in this. moment tell us the dress story so the. nuns. The nuns, they came to me and said, "Oh, do you have a pretty white dress?". It was going to be for some ceremony. What is it? Yeah. Every Friday in in Catholic school.

during Lent, they would crown the. blessed virgin Mary. So, you get to wear. a little dress, white dress, and a. mantella like a you're a bride and you. get to crown the statue. And um I. thought, "Oh, God, they like me." So, I. went home and my mom, it was on a. Wednesday, and my mom went and got a. remnant little piece of fabric and made. me this beautiful dress. And then I brought the dress back and. they took the dress from me and gave it. to Linda Kendersonson. Now I'm 71 years. old, but I remember Linda Kenderson. [laughter].

And um and they said, "Where is Linda Kendersonson today?". [cheering and applause]. And they're like, "Uh, her mom passed. away." And I was very sympathetic, but I. was like, "I still don't want her to. have my dress." which set up a lot of. guilt in me because I was like, you know, no, it set up a lot of guilt, Tina, because the nuns said to you, you're a. mean little girl. You don't want to give. your address. You don't want to give. your address to her. So, I mean, I think. for the nuns to set you up to lead you. to believe that you're going to be the.

little girl that's going to be a part of. that ceremony. You come with the dress. and they say, "Now, you have to give the. dress to the other person, right?". I mean, that is devastating. And I felt. so guilty because I was like, I should. not be. They were like, you're selfish. That's you're just such a mean, vain. little girl. And your mother says, "Give her the. dress." And I'm like, "I don't want her. to have my dress." I mean, I was ready. to fight her. And my I was mad at the. little girl, which made me feel bad. because then she my mom said, "You got.

still got your mom. We can make you a. new dress, but she can't make another. mom." So, it was so confusing and. abusive to a little kid. Yeah. But the. lesson in that that is so memorable for. me is that the day she wore the dress, I. mean she she wore the dress and crown. the blessed Virgin Mary cuz she was so. happy and. it meant so much to me because I did. that, you know, and that's why my mom. was so smart cuz she said you did that.

You brought her that joy by giving her. something that was so important to you. So my whole life if something is really. really dear to me when I give it away. it means so much more because it's. something that I really valued. and it's easy to give away stuff that. you don't care about but it's really. hard to give away things that you that. you love. So especially when you're a. little girl. Yeah. Yeah. But again, I can see where that.

moment of the nun saying you're mean and. you're so selfish would also instill in. you this whole I'm not good enough. I'm. not worthy. I don't belong. Which is the first thing. that she was trying to tell you. You. know what I thought when I was reading? I said they knew you were cute. They knew that your mother was a major. contributor to the school and as you say. in Matriarch that your parents were like. your whole family was like indentured. servants to the to to that school.

Everybody's working and cleaning the. yard and your father's driving for them. and your mother's making every single. thing in in in the church for them. So I. think that they were jealous of you. Don't you think that? I think they resented you. They resented. you. It was a class thing. Yeah, it was. a class thing cuz they felt like their. selfworth was tied into teaching a. teacher's kids and they shouldn't have. to be bothered with us little poor kids. Like we just didn't measure up and so it. was a waste of their time. That's that's.

what I've got from them all the time for. sure. Let's go to the Arlington. Like we said, you and I are almost exactly the same. age and from the time uh when children. were seen and not heard, but you made. sure that you were heard. That's how you. got your nickname, Badass Teeny Bee. Yeah. [laughter]. And you write that God had given my. mother the most cautious, you said most. cautious woman I would ever know, a girl. without fear. So where's Tiffany? Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's what resonated.

with me as well. My parents, my mom. specifically, taught me how to respect. my elders and everything, but she also. gave me a voice. It's okay to question. And it's okay to speak out if something. isn't wasn't right. My question to you, Miss Tina, is what gave you that. fearlessness? What inspired you to want. to speak out when things weren't weren't. weren't right? Not just with yourself, but with people that you love as well. Well, I think my fearlessness came from.

survival. You know, for someone to tell you, I'm. going to break the evil spirit in you. and you just thrive. Like I knew that if. I didn't stand up to them that they. would just really abuse me. Imagine you were five and a nun. a nun all nunl like uh says to you I'm. going to break the evil spirit in you. and you're five. I mean. and vain they they used to always say. and I went home and asked my mom I was. like what is vain? And she said it's.

when you think you're cute. And I was. like oh I'm never going to have anybody. think that I think I'm cute. But I would. say in my head, I'm I would call them the B- word in my. head cuz I was a little cusser. And I. would just think to myself, "No, you. not. No, you're not." And stand up to. them. I was just so stubborn. If you I. mean, if you talk to anyone in my. family, they will tell you how stubborn. I was. So, your mother would tell you. family stories under a picantry, which.

you say nourished your soul. And I I I. love that whole section of the book so. much. You write, "A part of that was my. mother making sure that I knew what an. honor it was to be black. You've been. known to wear t-shirts that that reads. 100% black." And you once declared, "I'm. the blackest woman you'll ever meet." Uh. Yumi in our audience has a question. about that. Hi. Um I was just really struck by that. line of I'm the blackest woman you'll. ever meet and just thought about the not.

only the motherhood, but the themes of. liberation. In fact, that line of. Celeststeine set herself free and her. family free. My mother walked out of a. civil war in Liberia and actually. resettled in Houston was a seamstress. coo sewed all of our clothes. And I just. thought about that idea of, you know, when she was teaching you about how your. value is tied to your service to others. and you wanted to fight that and talk. about liberation. And my question is, what is your advice to black women who. are in spaces that are not designed for.

them or not not designed for them to own. those spaces? How do you encourage them. to own the space and to liberate. themselves? Well, that's a great question. You know, I've always preached to my daughters. that you got to knock the doors down and. that you should be at home at any space. that you choose. And I mean that was. preached to them from the time they were. younger because I wasn't given that I I. wasn't given that message all the time. from my mother. But what I did get from.

her is that it was an honor to be black. That it was spicier. That it was, you. know, it was strong. It was it was the. best. That our music was the best and. our cooking was the best. The way we. walked, the way we dressed. I mean, my. mom loved dressing and and. [clears throat] I mean, that's such a a. great thing. My daddy and my mama were. sharp. They didn't have any money, but. they made sure they're sharp. Even if. they had to get, you know, Goodwill, I I.

got Goodwill shoes my whole younger life. because my mom would say, "I'm find you. some Buster Browns." And [laughter] and. y'all remember Buster Browns? Anybody. old enough to know Buster Browns? So, I was always taught to be very, very. proud of being black. Wow. And your maiden name is Beyonce. And so when your daughter was born, you. decided that you would call her Beyonce. because it was a way of passing it on.

Yes. Yes. Because the, you know, we. didn't have a lot of boys. So I was. like, the name is going to become. extinct. So I named her Beyonce. Much to. my dad. He he was like, "Girl, that that. baby going to be really mad at you. [laughter]. because you naming her last name.". In Matriarch, you also share what it was. like raising your daughters, Beyonce and. Solange, and you did a beautiful job of. letting us know what that was. And I. think that what you did so beautifully. also was you gave equal billing to both.

of them, right? And I know that was important to you, right? Yes, it was very important to me. to just highlight both of them because. obviously, you know, when I go on shows. or I do anything, people, you know, they. they like to talk about one of my. children and so I have to include all of. them. Yeah, that was really really. important. It's it's a constant thing. for me to to have to fight for. Well, what what's interesting is though that. you could see from the very beginning. and all of those of you who are mothers.

uh know this is true that none of the. children are alike. They come into the. world with their own thing, their own. nature. And then there's the nurturing. that you all give to them. And from the. very beginning, they were so different. You tell us in Matriarch. Mhm. Uh you all learned early on that when. Beyonce was a baby that she could only. be soothed with music and Solange was. the opposite. She would be soothed by. reading and other things, but Beyonce.

only responded to to music. And you say. that Beyonce loved the freedom of your. family dynamic, the that it gave her, but Solange wanted something more. practical and more structured. How did. you figure that out? Well, it was very obvious from from the. very beginning because Solange, one of. my girlfriends, was very structured, very educated. you know, everything w. had to be a certain way. Her kids made.

straight A's and Solange was very. attracted to it. So, she was always. telling me I didn't measure up to. Cheryl. Yeah. In no uncertain terms, you know, and. Beyonce loved the freedom of not having. a structure. And Beyonce was very much. like me cuz when I I never enjoyed. school. I don't ever have a good memory. other than the talent shows or the black. history program or something that was. creative or even home economics where I. got to sew and do things. I'm that.

creative force. And I think for be in. her creative space, I think she was very. much like me. So, I could really relate. to her because she could do the work if. she wanted to, but she didn't want to. If she could have skipped school, she. would have skipped school and just had. her music career. Oh, yeah. There was that one time you. you skipped school and Solange was very. upset. You took the girls to the beach. and Solange [laughter] was very upset. cuz what kind of mother would skip let. us skip school, right? She would say it.

all the time. She would say it to my. friend Cheryl and she would say it to. the therapist and therapist is like, you. know, salange need structure and and I'm. like, God, you know, it's like I wasn't. a good mom because I love for them to. miss school and hang out with me. [laughter]. And my mama loved for me to miss school. she would say, "Your stomach hurt. Okay, you don't have to go." [laughter] And so. I know that that wasn't the responsible. thing. And she reminds me to this day. of, you know, she accepts it now. Solange does. But when she went to see.

the therapist, she was like, "My mama is. so irresponsible.". You know, I think this is so interesting that you. put your daughters in therapy. at a very young age at a time when it. was considered taboo, especially in the. black community. I remember in. 1986 when I started the Oprah show, everybody was like, I would never go to. a therapist and going to a therapist. makes makes you crazy. And one of your. siblings told you, you're going to make. the girls crazy because they're too.

young. Something in your instinct said. the girls needed to go to therapy. Why? I got so scared because they were like. super close. Then all of a sudden, Solange was going taking Beyonce's stuff. and Beyonce was kind of being a little. mean to her and I had never seen it. before. It scared me to death because I. was like, I want them to be close and I. want them to to respect and love each. other. And. is this after Beyonce started.

performing? Yeah, Beyonce was performing. She was. this little local, you know, star and. Solange was coming doing she started. very early, too. But it was like people. would uh if they saw the two girls, they. would say, "Oh god, you know, oh, she's. so talented and she and you know how. they do." And then my other child is. there and I'm like, "Hey, you better. tell her something, too." So, I didn't. have any problem doing that. But I saw. this thing and I think um. you saw the division. I saw the division. And also what really.

shocked me and made me move forward with. it was the girls the group was at our. house all the time and I just noticed. they started saying. sit down salon shut up Solange and. Beyonce wasn't defending her. So that. mama bear that defender in me said uhuh. I got to protect your sister like but. she gets on my nerves. She's all in my. stuff. So that's why I took them and it. was the best thing I could have ever. done for them because they got close. again and Beyonce started respecting. Solange.

because you know the do the therapist. was saying you're going to make your. little sister you know feel very. insecure. Let's talk about the discovery. of Beyonce. Can you tell us a story of. you and your ex-husband Matthew watching. her perform for the first time when you. saw her? She was 7 years old and she did. this parochial, they called it a. parochial school talent show with up to. high school and I was so scared cuz I. was like they're going to ruin her. confidence. But she got out there and.

just turned into the biggest little diva. on stage and she was shy, you know, very. shy. That's why we got her into it. anyway. And um and she we couldn't. believe that it was her and she came off. the stage. I mean, she got a standing. ovation and she came off the stage and. she was like, "I'm hungry. I want to. just get my trophy and my money and go.". And I'm like, "Oh my god." Cuz you know. that that old thing about being cocky or. thinking you're cute or thinking you're. all that kicked in for me. So I was.

like, "You don't know if you want and. you got to be humble and you know." But. anyway, it was the best thing that could. happen to her because she could turn it. off. Like when she came off the stage, she was just Beyonce and she's still. like that. Mhm. I mean, she's the furthest thing from a. diva that that you could be. But of the way she was raised, she's a. diva. Yeah. Well, yeah. And we love it. [laughter]. Listen, I play cowboy Carter every. single morning. [applause] My alarm is Texas Holde.

[laughter]. Okay. This ain't Texas. Okay. Um, I have to say though that your. ability to see the difference between. the daughters and make a distinction, I. think is what has allowed them to be as. close as they are now. And also to be. respectful of it. I I loved in the book. uh where you say Solange is art. She is art. She's not just an artist. She is art.

Yes. Yes, she is. Because everything is seen. through the lens of art. I mean, sometimes it's irritating because I'm. like, "Girl, this ain't art. This is. life." But that's how she sees things as. an art piece and um it's it's different. It's really unique. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Um let's talk about Johnny or Uncle. Johnny. We know him in Beyonce's song. Heated. We know that so much of the. Renaissance was dedicated to him. He was.

your nephew. Yes. But also your best friend. He was your. confidant. He was your partner in crime. Yes. Always. And I thought it was really interesting. that for these times he was so accepted. and embraced in the family, right? You. say Johnny lived life which is different. from just living. And uh my friend Paulo and his husband. Patrick are here. Patrick, you have a. question about this, right?

I do. I do. There was actually a line. about Johnny that just I stopped and I. had to read it again and I started to. cry because you said Johnny was. obviously gay by the time he was 3 years. old and I felt like I already knew the. end of the sentence was going to be. about how hard and struggle and. traumatic it was. I'm from New Iberia. which is right up from Weeks Island. So. like I thought of my own experience and. how hard it was the rest you know the. description would be but then the second. half of the sentence just took me back.

because you said and I never knew him to. hide that light and you describing his. gayness as a light just it made me so. emotional because it made me think of. myself and look back at the little boy I. was and the story I I have about how. hard and shameful and you had to hide. and suppress and then I was able to. really look at myself and see light. there and it just was amazing. It was a. an extraordinary act of like. unconditional love and I just wonder if. it felt like that to you or if it just.

felt normal like that's how your family. was. No big deal. It felt so normal to me because Johnny. was so special and I just thought. everybody accepted, you know, we just. always accepted it and his mother. accepted him and my mother accepted him. He was, you know, her favorite. grandchild. And so people respected him. because we respected him. Oh, that's such a powerful thing. People. respected him because his family.

respected him and my brothers respected. him. My brothers were these macho. athletes and my nephews [clears throat]. were, but they accepted Johnny. They. walked down the street with Johnny and. his sharp clothes and we were proud of. him and so everybody else was. Did they try to get him one time to play. ball? Some kind of ball. They made him play basketball. He didn't. like it at all. And I happened to you. too. Same. [laughter]. Right. They were going to macho him up a. bit, but just to protect him though. [clears throat] It came from a a love of. protection for him, not from a we're.

going to beat you down type way. And. they left him alone after that. And they. was like Johnny or make the costumes for. basketball. But he was the one to play. basketball. Well, we can certainly see. where Beyonce's. flare for costumeuming because when you. go to any of the concerts, it's all. about the show and the costumes is such. a big part of the fantasy that she. creates on stage that transforms the. audience. And you could I could see from.

the first story about your mother and. know then knowing that she your mother. came from seamstress. and you knew know how to do it and that. you were doing all the clothes. all the clothes for Destiny's Child and. the way you were treated in the. beginning by the record company doing. those clothes. So disrespectful. Yeah. Yeah. not only the record company, but. when I would go to shoots and people. wouldn't talk to me or, you know,

because I was country and I had this big. hair and um and I never in the early. days would do myself up because I was so. um busy all the time. And it was also a. thing of not wanting to stand out. I. think, you know, I've thought about it. many times because I don't have a. passive personality, but I would let. people say things because I think I. thought I deserve to be not on their. level back then.

Yeah. You don't belong here. Exactly. That resonated in your brain. You don't belong here. And so you were doing the clothes and. the record company people are. complaining that they're looking too. much like the Supreme Tops. You're. trying to make them look like Mottown. And then that all changed when? Well, it changed later, but uh it was a. fight. The whole thing was a fight for a. long time. And then, you know, but. people love the costumes. The people.

love the costumes. The fashion magazines. didn't love them. The designers didn't. love them. They made fun of it all the. time. And um even to the point where I. remember Beyonce went to the Oscars one. year and I did this fabulous gown with. like origami. It was black and gold and. everybody was going crazy on the red. carpet. And then when she said finally. felt comfortable to say my mom did the. dress, they said that it looked like I. got the um the fabric out the drapes and. made it for her cuz it was like, you.

know, and it was so defeating because I. was so excited because I was like. finally they accept it and you know, they made fun of it. You know, the other. thing that was so interesting is that. your ex-husband, Matthew, was able to. instill within the girls at a very early. age how to protect their money. Yes. And I think that first of all, I think. you were very fair to your ex in this. this book.

cuz I know there's lots of things you. could have said [laughter]. that did not get said in this book. There was a neverending cycle of him. cheating. I mean, from the first. sentence that you write about that. shortly after you all got married, I. think the sentence was something like he. had a problem with fidelity. Yeah. Yeah. And Roshani, you have a question. about that? I do. Um, I was married six years, divorced for eight, recently remarried. And though there was infidelity in my.

marriage, the things that existed before. I got married with my husband was very. much present in my marriage, I just. didn't see it. So, the question is. really, um, when you have the early. signs from Matthew, what made you want. to commit or move ahead anyways? But. then what kept you there? First of all, I I hope that I made it. very clear in the book that my whole. life with Matthew was not filled with. heartache. That there were some amazing. moments. Also, I also had just lost my mom at 26. He. knew my mom. I knew his mom. And what he.

was was so kind to my family. My family. is everything to me. So, imagine you. losing your mom at 26. Your brothers and. sisters are older. They got their own. families. and you feel so alone and like. that's my best friend, you know, and in. a lot of ways he had an issue, but he. was so kind to me. And it sounds crazy. cuz that's not kind of cheat on. somebody. Um I think he had, you know, he had an illness, but we were a team.

and you know, we had kids and we built a. life together, we built businesses. together, we connected on so many. levels. So, I don't know. When I look at. it now, I can't believe I stayed there. for that long. Self-esteem issues, obviously. You know, those nuns telling. me I wasn't good enough. So, I was like, I'm lucky to have somebody that's. successful and smart. Did you ever better than me? Did you ever in some ways you think. that? Yeah. Did you ever I was going to say, were did you think it be was because you.

weren't doing enough that you weren't. enough for him? Did you think that? Oh, yeah. times. Yeah, I think I think. you do go through that when somebody. cheats on you. And it also keeps you in. a cycle of it's kind of like somebody. slapping you in the face and then you. don't get to recover and then you get. another slap in the face. You can't. really get your strength up, you know. And uh there were times when I did get. my strength up and but then I would have. these kids and I say, you know, I'm.

going to be by myself for the rest of my. life cuz I'm not going to bring some man. around my kids. You know, that was. always that fear of protection. And I. swear every time somebody would start. messing with me and he was my protector. He was always a protect. He's still my. protector. If if something went wrong, I. would want him on my team. How how would you describe how how is. your relationship today? because you all. are parents together. We Yeah, we're fine. I say in the book. that.

I still love him as a brother. Even though the things he did, I knew. that they were out of a illness. They. weren't intentional. And that sounds. crazy. I I know I still sound. codependent, but I just know that he. would take a bullet for me. And if. somebody messed with me, he was right. there all the time. He was a person who. always told me, "You could do anything. You could do anything you put your mind. to. You can have whatever you want to. have. I mean, he believed in me when. when nobody else did.

Yeah. Yeah. And then you married again when you were. 61, I think, went to actor Richard. Lawson and divorce after almost 10. years. And our friend Tyler Perry in the. book you talk about told you something. What was that? He told you about that. Just he just told me that um I told him. what happened and he loves Richard also. and he was like, "I'm very sad to hear. that." And I said, "But you know, this. marriage is not bringing out the best in. me. And I have finally found my worth,

and I know that I deserve to be happy. I. know I deserve to be for somebody to be. happy when they see me and to celebrate. me, and it's not doing it for me. It's. bringing out the worst in me, and it's. got to stop." And he said, I mean, he. was tearyeyed. He was like, "I am so. proud of you coming from a family where. women stayed no matter what." And it's. taken a lot of courage. I said, "I'm. doing this for my daughters, too." So, I. want to set that example for them. And. he said, "You're not only doing it for.

your daughters, but you're doing it for. your grandson." because you think that. you're doing something to stay in a. marriage that's unhappy that you're not. celebrated or you feel fulfilled. You. are affecting your grandson too because. he wants you to be happy and and how. he's going to treat the woman that comes. along. And I never thought about that, but he was just so supportive of me. Well, you write something that really I. think helps us to see the kind of woman. and matriarch you've been all these.

years. You say mothering someone is such. an important job, you naturally put. yourself on the back burner, wanting to. do so well that you end up losing. yourself. You say, "I was no doormat, but I was. damn sure hard-headed about taking care. of everybody except me and yes, getting. the praise for it." Mhm. So what was the turning point that you. realized enough that moment where you. say to the girls look I'm going to start.

taking care of myself? Well, that was. after my divorce and I was really. nervous about it because I had been so. engrossed in taking care of them and. making sure that they were okay and not. feeling worthy of um you know just. loving myself and taking care of myself. or taking a day off. If I was in the. middle of something that I really wanted. to do and my girls call me, I would drop. whatever whomever and be right there.

And so I felt like I had to have that. talk with them to warn them. And I was. scared of how they would react because. you know I you guys know mothers are. kind of taken my kids are wonderful. They acknowledge me. They love me. They. would do anything for me. But they do. Kids it's a kids nature to be a little. self-centered. But I told them and. surprisingly. they said mom we so happy to hear that. Because you know they were excited for. me. They weren't pissed off about it.

They were actually excited that I was. going to have my own life. Lindsay, you. have a question. Hi. Hi, Oprah and Miss Tina. I met my. husband shortly after his first wife. passed away. And as someone who's. mothering five children, so two. biological and three stepchildren, I. tend to just doubt myself and constantly. feel like I'm not um enough of a mother. to each of them or my own expectations. And I think that's why I was personally. so moved later in the book when your. daughters were reassuring you that all.

your sacrifices had impact and and made. them who they are. Um, knowing that and. also knowing that you've motherthered. one of the most successful artists of. all time. I'm curious if you still have. those feelings of self-doubt or regrets. or all the things we could have should. have done or do you say, you know what, I'm truly now at peace. I am truly at peace with myself. I have. never felt better about myself in my. life. [applause]. It's something about turning 70 that all.

of my mistakes and things that the the. shame that I had about a lot of things. I tell them all the time, and I don't. know if I could say this, but I don't. give a [laughter]. anymore about what somebody thinks of. me, what they say about me. I'm just. protective of my kids. So if I I don't. want to ever do anything to embarrass. them or make them feel bad, but other. than that, what you say about me kind of. rolls off my back because I feel good. about me. I feel good about taking the.

time for myself to look nice and to. dress nice and to take care of me. I. don't have any guilt or shame about it. So, I feel really good about it and I. know that I made a lot of mistakes and I. I think if I had anything that I would. do over again, it would be that I would. have left the marriage way earlier. because I still feel that I didn't set. the greatest example in that way for. them. I think you've done a pretty darn good. job. [laughter]. So, you now have six grandchildren.

Yes. Beyonce's Blue Twins Roomie and. Sir, Salange's Jewels, and Kelly's Titan. and Noah. Yes. And Clil, I hear you have a question. Thank you. Yes. So, in the book, you. mentioned that The Nun and Holy Rosary. stated that you um weren't, you know, good enough basically, right? And there. were moments of not belonging throughout. the book, but you said, "I belong. anywhere I want to be." So, how has. those words played a role in your.

success? And how have you been able to. pass that on to your children and your. grandchildren? It's funny because my girls will say, "Mama, you don't always have to have. your dukes up." You know, Beyonce tells. me that all the time, but I think I had. to fight for space. But I I think I. don't know if it was the nuns telling me. I didn't belong, that I fought to belong. in the spaces that that I've been in. And I taught them from day one that they. deserve to be anywhere that they wanted. to be. And that's some again people will.

not always welcome you but you got to. welcome yourself. Okay. You say that you've been asked many. times what is the proudest moment you've. had with your daughters and what is your. answer? Oh god. The proudest moments are when. they do something that's not about. entertainment but when they they do a. charitable thing and they are good. people, just regular good people. and. have good hearts. That sounds corny and.

it sounds like a cliche, but it's really. the truth. I just get so full and so. proud when they respect people and they. they do charity or they do, you know, something that's a normal thing. You've got to have been proud. Listen, [laughter]. when it was announced that BEYONCE. [cheering]. [applause]. won the album after all this time, After.

all this time, I was like, cuz I was. just sitting there like, "Okay, I know. Me, too. Who's it [laughter]. going to be?" And I I I almost peed on. myself when it happened. I was just. like, "Oh my god, [screaming]. it didn't happen." It happened. So that. had to be it had to feel like finally it. it but you know what it was more so. than pride. I felt like it was fair. That was my happiness. I just felt like.

they gave her a fair shot. Yes. For for the for the real um you know, she's won a lot of Grammys, but. sometimes I felt like some of those were. consolation prizes. And uh. and so for me, I I don't know if I was. so much proud as I was happy for her. Like finally Yeah. Finally, you got the recognition you deserve. You got the recognition you deserved, you know, for an album that was so out of the box. Yeah. Yeah. And that that came from a place of.

of pride for her because when uh when. she went to that award show, you know, she was not treated well and um it was. very much me back at Holy Rosary with. somebody saying you don't belong here. and um you know, you're not good enough. And that. was like saying, I took my seat at the table whether you. like it or not. Mhm. And I deserve to be here. I deserve to.

be anywhere I want to be want to be. Yes. Anywhere you want to be. You tell. the story of I think it was the first. album. and you all walk into the listening. session and there are all these guys. around and they're saying there's not. one single hit on this album. And it. turns out, yeah, there wasn't one single. Beyonce. There was five. There was five hits. But the best but. but that that that condescension, that. still doubting, that still lack of. respect that you all were getting when.

she was Beyonce. I wondered about that. Why? Why? But they really set us up. And. if I wasn't badass Teeny B, who produced. Badass Beyonce, we would have said, "Okay, we better go back to the drawing. board." But that just made us want to. fight and it challenged her to go and. get Jay on the record which was great. But the sad part is it came because she. said they wouldn't do this to Jay. They. wouldn't tell him this but they telling. me this. Yeah. And so from the beginning you saw.

this relationship between uh Jay and her. blossoming. Not from the beginning because they. talked for like a year on the phone and. I was like oh god I don't ever remember. talking to somebody for a year on the. phone. [laughter]. Like this is moving really slow. But uh. and so it took them a year to really get. together and when she went to do um you. know the movie in LA was I think the. first time that they he had been to our. house for dinner. and um you know but they weren't dating.

then and they weren't talking like. [clears throat] that. So yeah, it took a. long and they move pretty slow. as matriarch. having passed on your love and wisdom. and nurturing now to your daughters. What kind of matriarchs are they? Oh. god, that is um I can't believe how good. of a mother they are. All of them. They're just really good mothers that.

are natural and that they love their. kids and they put their kids first. And. I I'm getting emotional because I feel. like I passed that on because my kids. were always my priority cuz I I I did a. lot of screwing up when I was younger. and I was you know a little bit. rebellious and you know I went through. the thing with being mad at my mom and. and so all the things that she didn't. give me I decided I was going to. give it to them and. but now you understand I mean we.

understand why you were mad at your mom. that moment you overheard that. conversation. where you had been taken to the hospital. and you overheard your mom say after you. were examined was she pregnant or is she. pregnant? It was the most hurtful thing ever cuz I. wasn't thinking about screwing in cuz I. was really [laughter]. focused on getting out of that town. I I. don't know if I'm saying the wrong thing. but I'm just saying like [laughter]. I wasn't and so it was a very painful. thing for me. So what it said to you is your mom. didn't trust you. She didn't trust me.

But my mom told me eventually. it wasn't you that I didn't trust. I. didn't trust the world with you. Yeah. And that's what I thought about. your mom. I thought, yes, she was. passive, but she also was fearful as all. black moms needed to be because look at. what happened to your brother, right? Your whole family was traumatized for. years in that town. And your brother. beaten and the family harassed and you. were arrested and all that. And so, uh, your mother had reason to fear. And just think about how could she.

Black Southern moms would fear every. time your child is is is out of the. house. And I'm fearful every time my grandson. is out of the house. You know, I'm I'm. like, you know, make sure you. do this. I mean, we as black women have. to teach our sons and our grandsons and. our granddaughters because my mom was. always saying, "You got the biggest. mouth and you don't know how to control. your temper and you're so smart mouth. If somebody stops you, just shut up. Just shut up and make it home. And. that's a shame that we have to tell our.

kids to shut up and make it home. Okay. I want to end with this beautiful. passage in the memoir. Would you read. it? I am 70 and I just learned that I am. enough. I wish I would have realized. this at 40 or 50, maybe even younger. But that is why I am telling you, I have. tried to collect as much of that wisdom. as I can to pass on here. This precious. time of gathering memories is closing. It's not an end, I know, but my new.

beginning. Yes. [applause and cheering]. Liberation. Liberation time. I'm telling you all, you're going to love this memoir. It's. going to open up you to thinking about. the matriarchs in your own life. You did. such a great job. Congratulations to you. and to your editor and all the people. who made this possible who decided Look. at you on here, honey.

[applause and cheering]. I don't know if you think you're cute, but you ought to think you're really. cute. Matriarch is available wherever books. are sold. And Miss Tina also reads the. audio version of this book. [cheering]. Thank you so much.