The Secret Inner Life of Dogs: Scientist Alexandra Horowitz Reveals All to Oprah

This episode of the Oprah podcast is. presented by our fantastic partners at. The Farmer's Dog. >> So, you say that a dog's sense of smell. is so powerful that they can detect, listen to you all, a teaspoon of sugar. dissolved in a million gallons of water. >> That would be two Olympic-size swimming. pools. There are dogs who can detect a. picogram of explosive, which is a. trillionth of a gram. So, they can be.

trained to detect drugs or COVID or the. smell of cancerous cells. >> Yeah. >> But, even the dog we live with, they can. smell all those things. It's just when. they're trained. >> They smell our emotions. So, everything. that's happening in our body emotionally. and physically, biologically, health-wise, creates its own scent. >> They can sense the change. >> Hi, everybody. A warm, warm welcome to.

you. Thanks for hanging out with me here. on the Oprah podcast. I have to say, one. of the great, great joys of my life has. been that I've been able to share my. life with dogs since I was an adult. I think that they make life so much. sweeter and richer in all the ways. Every single one of my dogs has been a. teacher for me. I've had 21 dogs. Um. Sadie is my 21st dog, and I've before. Sadie, I I had 11 dogs at one time, and.

that was the happiest I ever was in my. life. It was when I had was living in. Chicago and had a farm in Indiana, and. we'd drive to the farm in Indiana on. Fridays, and I had two dogs, Sophie and. Solomon, who lived with me in Chicago, and the other nine dogs would be waiting. at the farm. Just the best, best, best. days of my life walking through the. woods with my dogs. And I've often.

wondered what is really happening inside. their minds. And I know those of you who. are dog lovers, as I am, uh have. wondered the same thing about your dogs. How do dogs experience the world? Well, my guest today has spent her career. trying to answer that question. And. she's not just a dog lover, like all of. us, she's actually a dog lover and a. scientist who studies their cognition. and their behavior. And she's the author. of the number one New York Times best. seller Inside of a Dog and director of.

the Dog Cognition Lab at Barnard. College, Dr. Alexandra Horowitz. Welcome. to the podcast. >> Thank you so much for coming to this. >> this front porch. >> It is my pleasure. >> I've been on the porch here with many a. dog. I've. roamed these fields with many a dog. Yeah. >> their presence. >> Yeah. And now I know why they love being out. here so much because I learned so much. about what smells mean to the dog. So,

when we let the dogs out here, it is. like. >> Mhm. >> wow. >> A whole different universe than we. experience. >> Yes. Yes. So, when you started writing. about dogs, there really wasn't. I don't know if there was, there a lot. of scientific research. How did you. understand what's going on inside a dog, inside of a dog? >> Yeah. Well, >> Every dog owner you should have this. book so you know what what your dog is. really thinking. >> Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Well, I mean, I.

asked the dogs, really. It I became a. scientist of dog cognition, which is. really just looking at their behavior in. a scientific way. >> And how do you do this? You have bunches. of dogs in a space or. >> Sometimes I have dogs I'll bring dogs. into a laboratory space, which is just a. boring room with nothing in it and just. the one thing I want to show them. Or. I'm observing dogs in the wild, as it. were, which is just interacting with. each other or interacting with people, and coding their behavior for certain. patterns to see what do they need to.

know in order to be able to do that. Do. they anticipate someone else's behavior? And so, when I started this, yeah, there. weren't a lot of people studying dogs at. all. I lived with a dog, but it never. occurred to me to study dogs, but once I. started turning my gaze toward them, I. never looked back. >> Once you started studying and you turned. your gaze toward your own dog, who has. since passed, that first dog, you saw. and experienced them differently, correct? >> Completely, completely. And when I.

started studying them, it's very. different, because living with dogs you. sort of feel like you know what their. experience is like. I mean, it's a. little bit analogous to our experience, we figure. >> Yeah. >> But. >> But I realized from reading Inside of a. Dog that I have been projecting what I. think. >> Yeah. >> onto what I think they're thinking. >> Yeah. The very natural thing to do, right? We all anthropomorphize. That's. how we make sense of the world is we. sort of imagine that others are thinking. of the world the way we are. And so, too, with those furry little faces.

looking at us. And as it turns out, when. you start to understand it from their. point of view, right, it's a completely. different world. It's a smelly universe. They have different understanding of the. world. What's amazing is that they're also able. to understand the human world and live. so smoothly with us nonetheless. >> Is it true that they have human-like. intelligence? That's what dog lovers. already want to believe. >> I mean, certainly in many respects they. do, right? Their brains work in the same. way that ours do. They have memories.

They learn like we do. They solve. problems like we do. Um they can even, even though it's not. their first language, understand some of. our language, which is pretty. impressive, I think. >> But I think the most interesting thing. about their intelligence is the way it. also differs from ours, and that has to. do with their perceptual experience. >> I think it's interesting how you talk in. the book Inside of a Dog, you talk about. how legally we are all dog owners, >> Mhm. >> but because they are property. But how.

would you describe your relationship. with your dog? >> I say I'm my dog's person, right? They're my dog in a way, but I'm their. person, right? We are family. >> Yes. >> Sometimes people use the word guardian, I think that also works. Property, ownership, that's legal. It doesn't. represent how we feel about each other. >> I think, you know, when I see a dog tied. up in the backyard somewhere, I always. feel like, oh, that dog owner thinks he. is the owner. in in in in the way that he controls.

completely that dog. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is there anything worse than seeing a. dog being tied up in the backyard? >> Captive to that moment in time, right? Not in a relationship with someone at at. every moment with. >> Yes. >> what they want and should be. >> So you say that a dog's sense of smell, this is what I learned from reading. Inside of a Dog, y'all, that the nose is. everything to the dog. And it made me. understand how over the years, having. had 21 dogs, I've had every kind of.

illnesses, I had five golden retrievers. who all had a strain of cancer. I have. had dogs who lost their sight and dogs. who lost their, you know, ability to. hear. You know, Sadie can no longer. hear, but as long as that nose is. working, >> Mhm. >> the sense of smell is so powerful, you. say, that they can detect, listen to. y'all, a teaspoon of sugar. dissolved in a million gallons of water. That would be two Olympic-size swimming. pools.

So, how is that possible? They can. detect the smell of a teaspoon of sugar. in a million gallons of water. That's. how how how they're. >> I might notice if some sugar's in my. coffee. >> Yes. >> But. >> I wouldn't notice if there was a. teaspoon of sugar in this glass. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> But I mean in a million gallons of. water? >> Their whole anatomy is set up to be such. strong smellers. Everything about how. they sniff, their nose, their brain is set up to be. smellers. So yeah, there are dogs who. can detect a picogram of explosive,

which is a trillionth of a gram, you. know, unimaginably small amount. >> That's why they're so great for for drug. detection. >> Absolutely, right? But they could be And. these are dogs who are trained. So they. can be trained to detect drugs or COVID. or the smell of cancerous cells. But. even the dog we live with, even untrained, right? They can smell. all those things. It's just when they're. trained. >> emotions. They smell our emotions. But.

you say it goes even further than that. in smelling emotions. As you just said, they can detect cancer, they can detect. COVID, and even PTSD. How is that? How. are they smelling cancer? How are they. smelling COVID? >> These bodily changes have an odor. Really, almost everything has an odor. >> Oh. >> It's just we're not sticking our nose up. to it and detecting it. >> also don't have the ability to to detect. it. >> Our noses are pretty good, but nothing. like theirs. And they also behave really.

>> smell if someone had cancer. >> Mm. No, but there is a woman who smelled. Parkinson's disease in her husband. And. doctors did used to smell people's. breath, their bodies for certain kinds. of illnesses. And dogs are just on that. all the time. >> So everything that's happening in our. body, emotionally and physically, biologically, health-wise, creates its. own scent, is what you're saying. >> There are changes in cells, and then. there are things like perspiration or.

hormones in our sweat. >> And the dog smells that and senses that. >> They can sense the change. >> That's how they know you're sad. They're. not just looking at your face. >> Yeah. >> That's right. I mean, they do look at. our faces well, right? Which is neat. They can read our emotions. >> animal that actually gives you eye. contact and. >> Right. Right. You can You can look at a. dog and they're looking back at you and. you feel that understanding, right? >> Yes. >> And that intimacy. >> And for other animals that is like. aggressive behavior. >> I wouldn't do it with a wolf. >> I wouldn't do it with a wolf. Yes.

>> Yes. Yeah, that's a threat to a wolf. And I. mean, for us, it's part of what it's like to. have a conversation with somebody. It's. part of what it's like to have an. intimate relationship with somebody. And. they kind of bootstrapped on that. >> Yeah. >> So, do they understand language? I've. always under heard that they could. understand words as well as a toddler. Is that true? >> Yeah, in some way. >> have a vocabulary? >> I mean, they're not speaking. They're. not producing words, but their. perception is actually surprisingly.

good. If we talk to them clearly, most. dogs will learn dozens of words. And. there are some amazing dogs who have. learned hundreds of words. >> Okay, so do they understand let's go for. a walk because they understand the word. walk or do they understand let's go for. a walk because usually when you say. let's go for a walk, you get the leash. and you're headed out the door? >> They see both those things, but it also. the prosody of the sentence or the. sing-songiness of the sentence. When I. say let's go for a walk, Finnegan,

that's a certain sound that they. associate with the thing that's going to. happen. >> So, are they like toddlers in that they. uh cuz I notice babies and we all notice. this that babies react to your. sing-songy voice. That's why people talk. in their baby talk voice and they react. to the vibration, they act to the energy. of your words as well as the words. >> We use something called dog-directed. speech with dogs typically. Women more. than men, but it's like kind of baby.

talk and it lets the dog know. that of all this bubbling speech around. them, some of it is directed to them and. that's the part they should pay. attention to. And they get that. >> And they get that. Right? That's what. they're They're little anthropologists. watching us all the time looking for. cues from us. So, if we use language. carefully with them, they can pick up on. it. >> Hello listeners. I always say that one. of the great joys of my life has been my. dogs. So, I am deeply committed to their.

well-being just like our friends at The. Farmer's Dog. From my golden retrievers. to my cocker spaniels, I've had 21 dogs. over the years. Their smiles, they do. smile, you know. Their snuggles, their. spirits remind me to slow down, to be. present, and to appreciate the small. comforts in life. Listen to this. The. Farmer's Dog makes human-grade food for. our dogs with real ingredients and. minimal processing. So, I've been. feeding The Farmer's Dog to my cocker. spaniel Sadie for a while now. Sadie's.

17 and a half because it supports. healthy aging and I think it's giving us. more good days together. Because every. time I feed her The Farmer's Dog, I know. I'm giving her safe, quality food. To. all my fellow dog lovers, you know our. beloved companions give us so much and. that is why The Farmer's Dog helps us do. our best for them. >> I read in inside inside of a dog that. they track our movements. >> Mhm.

>> How are they doing that? >> They're. really attuned to us all the time. I. mean, think of what's happening. ordinarily. If you're sitting in a room. with your dog, nothing is happening for. them. So, they notice all the. associations between when you get up and. you're going to the refrigerator versus. when you get up and you're going to get. the leash and go for a walk. We're. moving differently, right? As anyone who sat in the corner. of your room and and studied you could. start to tell. >> And that you move differently when. you're going to the refrigerator. >> Yes. >> or you're going to get something out of.

the closet. >> Yes. >> when you're going to get ready to go for. a walk. >> Right. Our intentions are in our. movement, right? >> And the dog senses that. >> Yes. They're great observers. >> Ah. >> I wish we'd be better observers of them, but they're great observers of us. >> they great observers. uh because they're so fully present? >> Yeah. Yes. They I mean, sometimes people. like to say, "Well, dogs just live in. the moment." I mean, I do think they. have a real feeling of their past. They.

have memories and they think about the. future, but they're great observers of. the moment. >> Okay. Okay, you just said you do think. they have. So, do they have memories of. their past? Do they think about the. future? >> Yeah. Yeah, they absolutely do. It's. very tricky in animal cognition research. to try to ask an animal who's not. answering your questions in language, you know, "What do you remember?" But. all of their behavior indicates that. they remember episodes. They remember. people. >> Tell me how. Tell me how. >> Well, I mean, does a dog recognize. someone when they return home after.

being absent for a month? Absolutely. They might not recognize them by sight. right away, but they'll recognize their. smell. >> Their smell. >> Yeah. So, they're thinking about and. know about things that happened in the. past. >> That's right. And if you have ever hit a. dog, the dog will if you or you like if. like I bought many dogs from the. shelter, you raise your hand, the dog, you know, cowers because the dog. remembers being hit. >> That's how they learn anything is learn. associations and remember it. So, yeah, they'll they'll remember who hit them,

that it happens, what preceded it, and. how they felt afterward. >> They remember you took me to the beach. and we had a good time me me going in. the water. >> That's right. Or I don't want to go to. the vet and this is the route to the. vet. >> Yeah. And one of the reasons they don't. want to go to the vet is because they. remember the route to the vet because of. the way it smells. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Exactly right. They. remember the way it smells and the vet. smells a certain way, too, right? The. veterinary office smells like stressed. dogs who've been there before. >> Right. And they're smelling all the. stress of all the dogs who've been.

there. >> Yeah. >> Unbelievable. And is that why when we. get off the freeway, just even when. we're exiting the free freeway, I notice. it and Sadie's in the backseat, she. stands up and she cuz she's smelling. things or does she or does she recognize. this is our road? >> I think all the cues, right? If you turn. off the main road, you're slowing down, it's it's slower, the road might be. different under the tires. Suddenly, the. air comes in the window slightly. different, and the smell of every place.

is distinct, and dogs are good observers. of that. >> You say that simply being closer to the. ground, the fact that the dogs are. closer to the ground, changes how dogs. experience sound, how they experience. smell, and even their personal space. I. I I just never thought of it that way. before before. >> I think one of the great ways to start. thinking about what it's like to be a. dog is to just get down on their level, right? Where they're among human knees. and ankles and and clanking shoes, and.

sound travels differently down there, right? Bounces more, the rumbling of a. fan you put on the floor will be felt. And then, of course, there are all sorts. of smells on the ground. Most smells are. in the air, and they land on the ground over time, and so it's full of information about. the ground. >> when the dogs are walking, you see these. people pulling their dogs along when. their dogs are trying to, you know, sniff sniff sniff sniff sniff. You're. doing the antithesis of what that dog.

really is going for the walk for. After. reading Inside of a Dog, I thought, "Oh, the dogs aren't walking to get. exercise." Everybody's trying to get the. dogs out to exercise. The dogs are. walking for the smell sensation. It's a. smelling universe for them. >> Exactly. Right. The walk is for them, right? And we think, "Oh, we have to. make good time. We have to exercise you. You have to go relieve yourself." But as. soon as you walk outside. and the the world has changed, the scent. has changed a little bit, there's.

evidence who's been there in the past, that's what the dogs want to notice. If. there's another dog, they want to sniff. that dog, see who they are, where. they've been, if they're healthy. So, I. love to take my dogs on on smell walks. where one of the walks just is me. letting them sniff whatever they want to. sniff for as long as they want. >> Why do dogs love this? We've all seen. this, and my dog does too. When Sadie. puts her head out the window, she looks. like Farrah Fawcett, I have to say. Uh, why do dogs love sticking their head out.

the car window? Because when humans do. it, we can't breathe all that wind Why. do they love it? >> it's like olfactory fireworks, right? Every smell at once, all at once, which. is just like a delicious experience. >> All those smells they want. That's why. they're all grinning when their heads. are out the window. It's like, "Oh, come on, baby. Bring it to me, baby. Yeah.". Uh, we have a few dog lovers joining us. with questions for Dr. Horwitz. Rachel, hi. >> Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Um, I've enjoyed this conversation. thoroughly. Um, so I have never been a. dog person. I am married to a man who. rolls around on the floor with every dog. that he sees. And, um, about 2 years ago, our daughter. came to us and begged us to rescue the. sweetest, most scared, but very sick. dog. I reluctantly agreed to, um, adopt. him, and I spent the next year and a. half going to every vet, every.

specialist, hospitals hospitalized him, um, to try to help and make him feel. better. Um, and his name is Beau. So, um, Beau has been on his health journey. now. He's doing much better for the past. 6 months. But what I've come to realize. is that I love him like he is my part of. my soul. Like he is my soul dog. >> Yeah. >> The same way that I feel about my. husband. Like my husband is my soulmate. So my question is, is this Bo think that.

I'm his soulmate or soul person also? And Oprah, I know that you've had 21. dogs. Have you ever had this feeling that. you're. your soul knows? >> god, yes, Rachel. I've had this feeling. But so yes, I don't know if. I I and my my my soul dog also knew that. he was my soul dog. I could start crying. right now. I really could. My soul dog was Luke. >> Mhm. >> And.

I I still I still think of him. And I. think when I transition, Luke will be there to greet me on the. other side. That's what I think. So yeah, that's that's that's what I. feel. And I and I knew he knew. I knew. he knew. He knew. Yeah. So Dr. Harley, what do you want to. say about that? >> Yeah, I mean I've also had, I think, more than one soul dog actually for. different times in my life and and for. different me's in a way, different ways. that I was being in the world. And this.

this is there's a real basis to this, right? Just it's analogous to the a. child-parent relationship in that dogs. feel attachment. Um just like children. feel attachment to their caregivers. And. they attach to a person or persons. And. that connection is the basis of this. dog-human bond. And it's a real physical. connection, you know? >> Yeah. >> People and dogs, when they um are bonded. like this, they'll sit together and. their heart rhythms synchronize with.

each other, right? By just looking at. each other in the eyes, they their oxytocin levels rise. So, this is a real experience that you're. having. It's not just something that. you're concocting, right? And it's the. basis of why dogs are so great with. people. >> And how is Bo now? You said he's going. through health issues. >> So, for the past 6 months, he's healthy. People come up to me all the time to. tell me they can't believe he's the same. dog. So, knocking on every. veterinarian's door in our town worked.

>> Really? Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, we're going through it with Sadie. I mean, I think we're in the last days. of Sadie and I would have to say. I was on tour in Australia in December. and my dog caregiver was like, "We don't. think you know, she's going to make it.". So, I rushed home. I thought I was going. to have to put her down and then when I. got here, she was she perked up, you. know. >> Mhm. >> But, I would have to say that nearing.

the end and knowing it's the end cuz cuz. Sadie is 17. So, we know we don't have a. whole. >> Yeah. >> long time. Um that there's something. really quite precious about these days, too, cuz you know you're in the in the. in the final days. So. It's a thing. >> Enjoy all those years of Bo that you. have ahead of you. >> I want to know, how has Bo enhanced your. life? How has he changed you? >> I'm a different person. I am not the same person that you would. have met 2 years ago.

>> How? How so? How so? >> I join my husband rolling around on the. floor with all the other dogs. >> Yay. >> Um I actually think it's made my. marriage even stronger. Um because it. was a love that he had that I didn't. understand and now I understand how you. can love from the bottom of your heart, like. really love an an animal more than. yourself. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, God bless you for. that. I think that's a wonderful thing. to have that as a as another soulmate in. the world. Thank you, Rachel. >> Yeah.

>> Thank you. Thank you. Marissa, dog mom. to 10-year-old Harvey is joining us from. Texas. Hi, Marissa. >> Well, I'm so glad to be here. So, yes, um I am the lucky mom to Harvey. He will. be 10 later this year. Um Harvey and I actually met um 10 years. ago, but I'm quite positive we were. family in a past life. I just know it. Um we met. We met in San Diego. Uh back when I.

lived in California, I was volunteering. for a foster organization. I was his. foster mother, and as the story goes, of. course I meet him, and I know instantly. that I I've known him for many years. >> You're his person. >> Oh, yeah. He's He is my person. Um. So, yes, I was a foster win, as I like. to call it. Um. so, Harvey and I have now spent uh the. last 9 years traveling the United States. together. We've lived in California. We. lived for a little bit in Minneapolis.

We were in Chicago for 4 years, and now. we're down here in Dallas, Texas. So, I. swear he has more um airline miles than. most people do, but. >> Yeah. >> it's been really fun to just travel this. country with him and and kind of explore. with him. Um but, my question for you. So, we've been together a long time, and. whenever I get ready to leave or head. out the door, Harvey seems to do the same thing. So, whether I'm going out to the mailbox for.

a minute, or maybe I'm going for some. errands that I'm running for the day, Harvey will get anxious. So, my question. for you is more on the concept of time. >> Mhm. >> So, do dogs understand the concept of. time? Does he understand that when I'm. gone for 5 minutes or the full day, does. he know how long I've been gone? Because. it seems like either way, it has the. same emotional impact on him. When he. sees me getting ready to leave out the. door, he seems to get that same.

emotional reaction. So, I'm curious just. what he's thinking about as I'm getting. to ready to leave out the door. >> Great observation. You know, the flip. side of that attachment we were talking. about is that in separation dogs are. stressed. They're anxious, right? And. that's part of the bond, actually. It's. the kind of negative side of the bond, which is that when you're attached to. someone you don't want to see them go. >> And I do. >> And when you're gone, they're stressed. And when you're gone, there's some.

stress involved. Probably why Sadie. perked up when you return, right? There's the relief of that. >> Mhm. >> Um and it is a really cool question to. say, well, does that mean they don't. have a sense of how long you're gone? And there actually was research that. looked at this question. What they did. was they looked at the greeting behavior. that you get when you come back in the. door, right? That great enthusiastic. reply. >> Yeah. >> And they had people leave their dogs for. a few minutes or a half an hour or. several hours, and they looked at the.

intensity of the greeting. >> Mhm. >> And they found that the longer the. people were gone, the more tail wagging, licking, shaking, intense greeting they. got. So, dogs in their behavior look. like they do appreciate the distance, the time you've been gone from them. And. in that way, they're kind of marking. time. Yeah, it's definitely different, even though they're whatever in excited. every time you come back in the door. >> Yeah. I I notice this with Sadie that. uh especially when she was really well,

that if you're gone for a few minutes, I. remember coming to think, well, I've. only been gone for a few minutes, and. and you're this excited. But if you're. gone for a long time, she would like go. around in circles and bark and yap and. do all the things like. >> all the stops. >> all the stops. >> The toys. Yes. >> Run and get a toy and all that. >> He wants to run and go grab something. and bring it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Wow. >> think they mark time through smell,

right? Smells change over time and our. spaces smell like us, right? And the. longer you're gone, nor everybody has a. smell. It's a perfectly normal thing and. our dogs know it. They'll recognize us. by our smell alone. The longer you're. gone, the less your space smells of you. being there. So, time is kind of marked. in the passage of odor during the day. >> Everything is when you read this book, Marissa, everything is through the nose.

Everything everything is about the the. smell. >> I mean, because it's how they see the. world, right? And. >> the world through their nose. >> And that's how their brain works, olfactory cognition. Yeah. >> Thank you, Marissa. >> Thank you. >> All the best to you and Harvey. You and. Harvey, 10 years together. That's. beautiful. >> Hello listeners. I always say that one. of the great joys of my life has been my. dogs. So, I am deeply committed to their. well-being, just like our friends at The. Farmer's Dog. From my golden retrievers.

to my cocker spaniels, I've had 21 dogs. over the years. Their smiles, they do. smile, you know. Their snuggles, their. spirits remind me to slow down, to be. present, and to appreciate the small. comforts in life. Listen to this, The. Farmer's Dog makes human grade food for. our dogs with real ingredients and. minimal processing. So, I've been. feeding The Farmer's Dog to my cocker. spaniel Sadie for a while now. Sadie's. 17 and a half because it supports. healthy aging and I think it's giving us.

more good days together. Because every. time I feed her The Farmer's Dog, I know. I'm giving her safe, quality food. To. all my fellow dog lovers, you know our. beloved companions give us so much and. And is why The Farmer's Dog helps us do. our best for them. >> So you believe that trying to show your. dog that you're the boss can be harmful? >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And we know that there are lots of. trainers who do that, you know, like. you're I'm the one in charge.

>> Right. >> Why do you Why do you not uh condone. that? >> Well, I again I look at the science, you. know, and people are looking at wolf. behavior to try to explain how you. should be with your dog. And there's. very old science that said, "Oh, when. you look at wolves in a captive. environment, they establish a dominance. hierarchy and they're leaders or alphas. who have access to all the resource.". >> But then when people could actually. study how wolves behave naturally in the. wild, >> Yeah. >> it turned out they live in family packs. And there are leaders of the group, it's.

the parents who live with their. offspring and their offspring's. offspring. And so they're not. maintaining their leadership by force, >> Mhm. >> by being bossy. They're not bullying, right? They just know more and so they. tend to be in charge. Um and we are also. in that kind of situation. Dogs are our. family, they view us as parents. essentially in that pack. And we control all aspects of their life. already, right? We don't need to worry. that they're going to try to threaten. our leadership and boss them or bully.

them around for it. >> I notice that sometimes your dog knows. that you're coming even before the car. pulls up or if the car is in the. driveway. Or we've seen these stories on. social media of the dog waiting in the. window for the kids to come home or the. dog knows that the school bus is coming. long before the school bus comes. How do. they know that? Are they smelling it or. they they just know it's this time of. day. >> I think both things are true, right? Again, they're great.

they understand our habits. So if we. create a habit, they learn that. perfectly right away. That's how you can. train a dog just by creating. >> That's how that's how Pavlov trained the. dogs, right? >> That's right, right? Like they learn. associations, so if you come and go at. the same time every day, they know when. that time is and they're ready for you. >> And if you feed them at the same time. every day. >> They know that as well, right? Even if. we don't think we're doing it, you know, the dog will show up ready to be fed. >> Um but also I do think the smells of the. the room change over the course of the.

day and they're tuned to that just like. it gets dark outside and we notice that. the day is ending, right? It's a totally. normal thing for us to notice. They're. also noticing the day in odors. >> I think it I think this is so. interesting because you know, for years. we were told that they're that your dog. doesn't know the difference between 5. minutes or 5 hours. So what you were. saying to Marissa. uh. really changes all that. It that your. dog does your dog isn't saying, "Oh. well, 7:07 or it's been 25 minutes or.

it's been an hour.". >> right. >> That's that's that's. >> concept. >> human concept. >> Yeah. >> They do know the difference between it's. been 5 hours or it's been 5 minutes or. it's been 5 days. >> That's right. Right. >> They do. >> that and they're noting all those. changes of the day and as as we'd. expect, right? >> you're not there, they're stressed. >> Yeah, it's stressful to be apart, right? But they also can calm from that stress. >> dogs, it's more stressful than others. I. had a dog Sophie who just literally you. couldn't I couldn't leave her anywhere.

She had such anxiety. >> Yeah, I mean in children we'd say. >> howling in the hotel rooms. >> It's like an insecure attachment, right? But with a dog who has a secure. attachment, when you come, they calm, right? The stress is transient. It's. just they want to be back in that. relationship with you. >> all day? So there's so many people who. are listening to us right now who have. pets and they obviously have to leave. home and the What are those dogs doing. all day? >> Yeah, well, often not a lot. We don't. usually give them a lot to do. So. they'll try to.

>> bored? >> Yeah, dogs get absolutely get bored. during the day, right? I think it's It's. they'll rest, so it's not that they have. to be at work all day doing something. But if we give them nothing to do, they'll find things to do. I think a lot. of what we think of as misbehavior, pulling out our our shoes and chewing on. them and so forth, that's because they. were bored, they didn't have anything to. do. >> Nothing to do. Is it better to have. As I said, at one point I had 11 dogs at. one time. That's too much. unless you do have a farm.

Uh. But I have always thought that having at. least another dog is good for the dog. >> I think it depends on the dog and and. the person, the type of relationship you. want to have. I mean, now you live with. one dog and you know, that's a very. specific. relationship. When you have many dogs, they get to have relationships with each. other, right? Which is great. >> Right. So, if you're a working person, is it better to have two dogs cuz that. dog has a relationship with something. That dog has something to do during the. day?

>> It does give them social companion. So, for a lot of dogs, that's great. I mean, some dogs don't want to be with any. other dog, so I would You have to know. your dog. But yeah, social companionship. during the day. come over, bother me, come over, play. with me. That's much better than being. left alone if you're a social creature. >> Mhm. Jaime, zoom in zooming in from Houston. Welcome, Jaime. Hi there. >> Hi. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a wonderful conversation. Um my dog Lennox was 14. He died on.

December 10th of 2025. And sorry, I'm. going to try to get through my question. without crying. >> know. >> He was um the most amazing dog and he. was with me through every life. milestone, the birth of my children, my. wedding, um. and um when he passed, we had a week of. time before we were going to have to. euthanize him. Um he was deteriorating and the vet said. that that was the best decision. Um and. my question is just.

did he understand that that was his. time? Because obviously we made the decision. for him. And I feel a lot of guilt that I. took time away from him. So I just want to understand if he. understood that it was his time and that. it's okay. >> Ah, that's so hard. You know, and I. think, you know, what you're. experiencing we experience, right? And. this is a normal Grief is a normal part. of of a strong relationship ending.

Um and I think a lot of people do have. to unfortunately be in that situation. where they're. making a decision about the end of their. animal's life, right? Um. I I think that's very hard. So don't. make yourself feel guilty about it. Now. your dog probably Lennox probably knew. that he was aging, right? He could feel. I can't jump up. I don't hear as well. I. can't run as fast as I used to. So. they're experiencing their own aging. process.

Um as we've said before, you know, I. don't think that they really live in the. moment. I think they're thinking ahead. and they're remembering the past, but. they're such great observers of that. moment and the things you were doing for. him in his final week he would have been. completely gladdened by those things, right? Those were terrific things and. having you there and being with him, that's what he would have noticed, not. felt suspicious or worried or. anticipating something horrible. happening, right? So he knew where he.

was and what he wanted was to be in that. space with you and that's what you gave. him. >> So don't feel the guilt, you know, Jaime. Uh. if you've been listening I was sharing. I'm going through this right now. And you know, I was just asking myself. the question this morning if we didn't. have all of these medications trying to. keep her from having pain, would she. have already gone on her own. And so, I'm wrestling with this question right.

now. When is it time? How did you all. come to the decision that it was time? >> Um when we went to the vet, he was just. like having a lot of trouble like. holding on to his bowels and just like. having a regular normal life. >> Yeah. >> And um. we basically like tried to explore other. options and the veterinarian said that. regardless of the other options, he. would never be the same Lennox he was. when he was like running and jumping and. doing all the things. And so, it was.

just the decision of we can keep him on. this medication regimen, but he still. could not have the best quality of life. Um so that that was the choice to make. to give him peace. >> Yeah, it's the quality of life that. matters. >> Yeah, and the spirit and you when you. say this not going to be the same. Lennox, right? When you see. that this person, this dog you know, is. is lost themselves at some level, right? They're not the same spirit.

That's when you know it's time, right? And that's so horrible that we have to. oversee this part of their life. Um but. it sounds like you did. as much as you could for Lennox. >> Yeah. >> And he would have looked in your face. and known that. >> Yeah. Smelled it. >> Thank you. >> He would have looked in your face and. smelled it. Yes, yes. How are your. family and your kids doing? >> They're doing well. There's a really. awesome book um about dogs going to. heaven and my son loves to read it. He's. 4 years old and he loves to read it at.

bedtime. During his prayers, he still. prays for him every night. Um so, he's. still very much with us um. even though he's not with us physically. Um but he's he's always going to be a. constant, I'm sure. Um even if and when. we do decide to adopt another dog, um. he'll always be a part of our family. >> I was going to say, are you will you. will you be adopting another dog? >> Oh, it's such a hard choice, Oprah, because we we before um my husband and I.

said like, "Oh, I can't believe people. like lose a dog and then immediately. adopt." But now that we're in this. position, we're like the house is way. too quiet. We need a dog immediately. Um so, we're thinking about it. Um we. just we don't want to rush into it, but. we're definitely thinking about it. >> Okay. You'll get somebody in a totally. new person. >> Yeah. >> You'll You'll get a That's the thing. It's not the same one again. It's a new It's a new relationship. >> and new relationship to me. >> it does fill that space and that.

silence. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Jaime. Thanks for sharing. Thank you. >> Thank you for having me. >> While we're working on this show, my. team came across an Instagram that. caught our eye. Listen to Steve's story. >> I had a little dog named Wolfgang. He just went everywhere with me. When Wolfgang died, I think he was 12. It was just devastating. So, I thought, well, if something good. could come out of these deaths, maybe it. would make it better.

I decided I would go to the shelter. I. would find the oldest dog that wasn't. going to get adopted. So, I adopted a 13-year-old Chihuahua, and he was so happy. It was immediately. healing. I had plenty of room, so I adopted. another one and another one, and I ended. up at nine. I started an Instagram called Wolfgang. 2242. It wasn't started out as a senior. rescue page. It just grew organically. I. realized what I was doing with these.

dogs was very fulfilling to people. because people get to see this dog come. from the shelter with its final few. years left and get to live out a happy. life. What I found out after adopting senior. dogs is it's just the best situation. They have settled into the best version. of themselves and you get to enjoy that. If you're reading, they want to be right. there by your feet. They're great for. movie nights. They want to be with you. It's always hard on me when one goes. A.

lot of people say, "How do you keep. doing this?" But I bring it back to. being about the pet. I made sure that. they were in a safe, happy, loved home. It's a win. Every time is a win. To know that the Instagram is having an. effect on people and more senior dogs. are getting adopted, that gives me. purpose. >> Wow. I hear because of Steve's Instagram. page, hundreds of senior dogs have been. adopted. That's really incredible. Steve.

is joining us from Ohio. Hi Steve. >> Hello Ohio, Oprah. >> I'm so glad to hear your story because. uh I have a friend, Sally Jordan, uh. in Santa Barbara, who's done the same. thing over the years. She's adopted, you. know, disabled dogs and senior dogs and. you go to her house and dogs are like in. their little wheelchair carts and they. Yeah, it's it's really it takes a. a magnanimous heart to do that. And why. do you. Wha-.

Wha- cuz everybody loves the puppies. Everybody loves the puppies. And why are you attracted to the. seniors, do you think? >> I Well, I think I wasn't originally. because, you know, I've had dogs my. whole life. So. um I've had puppies and that whole. experience, but I I specifically adopted. the senior, you know, to give my dog's. death meaning. It Another dog would get. to live because he died. Um and then I. found out how incredible. they are. They're so grateful. And as I.

said in that piece, I think, you know, as we get older, we become, hopefully, the best versions of ourselves. And I. think that's what happens with dogs. Um. you know, they just settle into who they. are and they're just so easy. It's just. so easy and they're so grateful. >> Yeah, you know what I've noticed, too? I. realized the reason one of the reasons. why I have such peace about getting. older myself is because I've watched so. many dogs go through that process. Do.

you find the same thing? >> I I do and and something you'd said. earlier that I thought was so important. You know, you said understanding that. you don't have that much time left with. Sadie and that it's it's special and and. I believe that. I believe it's, you. know, it's an honor. You are you get to. guard this, you know, living being. through the end of their days and that I. think that's just a terrific honor and. there's some beauty in that. I really do. believe that.

>> Do you have a question for Dr. Horowitz? >> I actually it's kind of a two-parter. I've been as I said rescuing senior dogs. for almost 15 years now and when they. come to me, they either don't have a name or they've. got their name from, you know, their. previous life and I always change it. Almost always change it. There's been. one or two that I kept. My thought was, you know, new life, new. name. But I read once that a dog associates. their name with you, not with.

themselves. So, you know, like like. Moira here would be like, "Okay, this. tall, skinny, old man calls me Moira and. therefore it has no. ill effect on them by renaming them. because they associate it with you. And I wondered what your thoughts were. on that. >> I mean, I think that's a really great, cool observation. There is something to. it in that, you know, who is saying. their name and how they are saying it. I. think it's part of what their name is to.

a dog. In other words, it's not words on. a page to them. >> Say it again. >> Who is saying their name and how they. are saying it? And how they are saying. it. And how they are saying it. >> how is what their name is, right? And we. know this actually kind of intuitively. because if you've lived with dogs, you. give your dogs nicknames, right? My. Pumpernickel, who is in inside of a dog, she's P Nickel and and Nick and Pump and. Kiddo and you know, and she came to all. those names, right? And just dogs learn. their names really quickly, but they're.

also very much associating it with who's. saying it to them and how they're saying. it to them. And so, yeah, they can pick. up on this new name, which means a new. life. >> Yes. >> Yeah, that makes sense. Um, the second. part of the question is. I have never, in all the years I've been. doing this, I have never once had. trouble bringing a dog into the group. I've never had my group not accept a. dog, and I've never had the new dog not. accept the group. My I don't know.

whether that's because they're all. seniors and they're just kind of. laid-back and chill, or is it because. that there's so many dogs, they're not. as territorial over me as if I just had. one dog. >> I think they probably do establish their. own social group, which includes you, right? But includes each other, and. they're seeing that when they come in. But I think probably my speculation. would be the main part of it is that. when we mostly meet dogs, they're. puppies or adolescents. And at that time.

in their life, you know, their body has. far outpaced the development of their. brain. They have not grown into their. brains yet. >> Yeah. >> And as adult and senior dogs, their their brain has caught up, right? And they can just be the flexible social. companions to each other that they're so. good at being and the reason we. domesticated them. >> Every time I was introducing a new dog, I remember introducing Sunny and Lauren. to Luke and Leia and Sadie and that in.

that group, and I would put my t-shirt. >> Mhm. the new dogs, let my let the new dogs. sleep in my t-shirt overnight, and. introduce the new dogs to the old dogs. with in my t-shirt. So, there would be. my scent combined with the combined with. the scent of the dogs. >> were al- already a smell scientist. I. knew it. >> Yeah, there was something about my. scent. >> Yeah. >> Uh that's interesting. I'd also heard. that um if you take them for a walk.

>> Yeah. >> together immediately, that that. establishes they're in the same pack. And that gets rid of any, you know, I. I've never had that issue, but when. people have asked me about it, you know, and they're probably got two dogs and. bringing a third one in, that's usually. what I tell them to do. >> That's a great That's great advice, right? Like it's like having a. conversation with um a hard conversation. with a child. You want to sit both in. the car and face the same direction. You. know, go on a walk together. Let the. dogs kind of experience the world in.

parallel for a moment before they come. back into the space where somebody has. their special bed, or someone likes a. certain spot and doesn't want to have it. someone else be in there. >> dogs do you have right now? How many. dogs. >> Who's on the couch? >> cuz I laughed when you said that you had. 11 at one point. I I keep nine. That's. my number. That's the number I can deal. with the best. And having said that, um there's a rescue group that I work. with in Florida a lot, and and they just. talked me into taking another one. So, right now I have 10. Although my normal.

number is nine. >> And you feel. >> And it is different because they're. seniors. So, it's, you know, it's a. different their their activity level is. different. >> Yeah. Well, yeah, I had no seniors. It. was a crazy all the time, and feeding. time was always was always crazy. And, you know, I I have to say this for for. years I was making all the food for my. dogs. And for years Sa- Sadie has had. homemade fresh food. And now she only. eats the farmer's dog. >> Oh, that's that's exactly what I feed,

too. >> You feed you feed your dogs the farmer's. dog? >> Yeah, I and I just I tried to do with my. dogs what I do with myself, you know, the. the more the less processed the food is, you know, the fresher the food is. And. I've seen dogs come to me from a bad. situation and they start eating, you. know, less processed fresh food and they. just come to life. It It makes such a. difference. >> dogs need a special diet? >> Um only if they like I have one that's.

in kidney failure, too, and that one. needs a special diet. Generally speaking, the rest of them all. eat the same thing. >> Yeah. And your dog that's in kidney failure, what are you doing special for that dog? >> We do fluids and then I have a renal. diet because it's it's lower in protein. and it's lower in. a salt, I believe. Um so she she you. know, she has to be on that. and then I have to do the fluids like. three times a week. And then we just.

found out that she's got. a low-grade heart disease now, which is. really tough because. what you do for heart disease. it can it conflicts with what they've. got with kidney disease. So the heart. disease does not want fluids and yet I. have to do the fluids. So I just have to. back off the fluids and do less of them. >> Yeah. >> Um but maybe more often. >> want to see your vet bill. I don't want. to see your vet bill. Oh, honey child.

>> It's funny. I was just there today and I. have to go back in the morning. It's. just yeah, it's and then but to be fair, there will be months and months where I. don't have to go at all and everybody's. great, you know, and then sometimes it. rains and pours. >> That's what I was going to say, Steve. I. think a lot of people fear adopting a. senior dog because they'll be set number. one, set in their behaviors or you think. that the dog is going to soon die or you. think you're going to have all kinds of. medical problems. What do you want. people to know about what it's like to. adopt an older dog?

>> Yeah, to me it's really just. um it's that they're so easy. They fit. into your lifestyle very easily. Um and. then as far as the vet, I mean, if. you're not crazy like me and you don't. have nine of them, then you know, it's. affordable to get insurance. You know, so if you've only got one or two, then. you can get insurance to prevent that. But I had a dog recently die at 17. She. was only at the vet a couple of times. and it was for teeth cleaning. So, you. just, you know, it's luck of the draw. and and that's true with a puppy as.

well. >> Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much. We love your. Instagram. It's so great. It's so great. Thank you, Steve. >> Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. >> And all 10 dogs now. >> That's 10 dogs now. >> you'll make it to 11. It'll happen. >> Two of them are 17, so I I think we're. walking a tightrope right now, too. >> Yeah, I understand. Thank you so much, Steve. Thank you. >> You bet. Thank you. >> What do you most want people to you wish.

they knew about. >> Mhm. >> the inside of a dog? >> I mean, I want people to let dogs be. dogs. Realize that they're not little. furry humans, right? They're not stuffed. things. >> care about being dressed up. >> They don't care about being dressed up. Like except for maybe they don't love it. or if you give them a lot of attention. And you know, the reason we love them is. because they're different than us. And. so I think we should celebrate those. differences and let them be themselves. >> Do Okay. I When I When I first.

started reading this book, I was. fascinated because. I I've seen people out with their dogs. with rain coats. When I lived in. Chicago, I had a rain coat. And reading. this book, I know that's the last thing. the dog wanted was a was a rain coat. >> The only thing interesting about the. rain coat is if it means they're you're. they're being taken out, right? But. other than that, right? It's they you. know, feels like someone pressing on. their back. They're they don't need a. raincoat. >> Their body is suited for that. Say that. to everybody. We're thinking you're. putting the coat on them because it's.

going to keep them warm or keep them dry. or keep them that. And for them it feels. like pressure. >> For the dog, it's like someone is. pressing on their back to have a. raincoat on, right? And in wolves, we. know that that's done when they're being. scolded, maybe. >> Yes. >> for misbehavior by an adult an older. dog. And so your dog is accepting the. raincoat, but no dog is like. >> It's really glad. It's really glad to get it off, right? >> to get them off and they'll deal with it. like they deal with a lot of nonsense.

from us, right? They dogs put up with a. lot and they're flexible and they can. But if we were really interested in what. they want, you know, I think we'd look. at their behavior instead of just. assuming that they're little furry. humans. >> Well, I think when they get together. they must say, "Can you believe what my. human did today? She had me dressed up. in a Halloween costume and yeah, I would. I look ridiculous." Yes. Uh. I think that Do they also it seems like. as soon as I would give the dogs a bath, they would go find especially out here.

some cow dung to roll in. >> Yeah. Yeah, they don't want to smell. like, you know, your coconut shampoo. They want to smell like where they've. been and who they are. And that's. actually how they recognize each other, right? They can smell who someone is, a. person or another dog by their scent. So. they'd rather not be perfumed, right? They'd rather smell like something. fantastic. >> if you obviously we have to bathe our. dogs, but if you're going to bathe your. dog, you should bathe your dog in a. scentless shampoo.

>> that would be better. Yeah, and and just. put up with, you know, their. being unshowered once in a while, right? That's okay as well. >> Do they dogs like to get bathed? >> They don't tend to, right? It you know, if your dog is hopping in the If your. dog is hopping in the bath, then go for. it. Otherwise, I think they would rather. not. >> But, we want them to be clean. We want. them to be clean coming in the house. >> Yeah, if they're rolling in cow dung, you have my permission. There you.

>> Cow dung is where it ends. Thank you, Dr. Horowitz. His book, Inside of a Dog, is now fully revised. and updated and available everywhere. books are sold. It's going to change the. way you take your dog on their next. walk. A big thank you to The Farmer's. Dog for partnering with us on this. episode. Their fresh food has been. clinically shown to help dogs age well, so you can have more good years. together. And as I said, for years, I. made all of my dogs food, and I ran into.

somebody from The Farmer's Dog, and they. said, "Have you tried Farmer's Dog?" And. I was like, "No, never tried that cuz we. make our dog food fresh from scratch.". And I can tell you. that we put a bowl of the freshly made. food that we had done and the fresh food. from The Farmer's Dog. And now, that's. all Sadie's eating. Pretty amazing. Thank you, Dr. Horowitz, and Rachel, and. Marissa. for being with us here, and Jaime, and. Steve for joining us today. Inside.

of a dog. If you have a dog, you need. this book. Or give it to a friend. It's. a great gift for a friend who has a dog. Go well, everybody. You can subscribe to the Over podcast on. YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll. see you next week. Thanks, everybody.