The Real Reason Why We Can’t Stop Scrolling with Oprah and Dr. Anna Lembke

When it comes to tech, when does a daily. habit cross over into addiction? >> This has crossed the threshold from a. bad habit into a mental illness. >> I hear you've racked up over $30,000 in. credit card debt. What do you think is. at the root of your shopping addiction? I feel unfulfilled in many aspects of my. life and instead of sitting with the. discomfort, I resort to let me find. something to buy. >> You spend as much as 7 hours a day.

playing video games. >> Mhm. >> And what is it about gaming for you? >> A lot of the game is rewarding, but also. low lows can happen all within a like 20. minute span. >> I hear that you've lost more than. $100,000. on sports betting apps. I know you. dropped out of three colleges. You were. lying. You were stealing from your. parents. What is it about online. gambling that makes it so hard to quit? >> It's that adrenaline rush. It could be. compared to someone addicted to drugs,

you know, chasing that original high. >> And now we've entered into addicted. brain. We need to use more of our drug. and more potent forms, not to get high, but just to level the balance and feel. normal. It's like the heroin addict. coming off of the heroin. >> Exactly. >> And that is what is happening to your. children when you try to take away the. phones. That's what's happening to you. when you can't get yourself. You can't. stop scrolling. You're just scrolling. Scrolling. Scrolling. >> Yes. >> Hi everybody. I'm glad to be here with.

you on the Oprah podcast. Over 3 million. of you watched or listened to our. episode on Gen Z tech addiction. Thank. you for that. But as we're learning, it's not just one generation or group. Tech addiction can hook anybody. And a. lot of people are hooked right now at. all ages, no matter your circumstances. And today on this podcast, I want to ask. these questions. What's behind these. addictions? What's happening inside our.

brains? Are we defenseless? Or can we. actually do something about it? I'll be. talking to people who are addicted to. gaming, online gambling, and even. shopping. That's a biggie for a lot of. women. But first, here's a quick look at. some of the moments from that episode. that struck a chord. >> So, my name is Dr. Nisha Glenn. This is. my son, Amir Jenkins. He started his. gaming at about five or six. When he got. in high school, that's when I knew it. was an addiction. He would not brush his. teeth. He would not eat. It was strictly.

>> air. >> I mean, nothing. No, no, no showers in. there on the game 24 hours a day. >> Can you take us to the point of. understanding what that feels like when. you're sort of caught up in the. obsessiveness obsession of it? >> I would say you almost forget where you. are in a sense. Like when I play the. game, I literally forget I'm in a house. sometimes. It's so virtual, so intimate,

and you know, it's free and a judge-free zone as well. >> Mhm. >> I was exposed to porn at the age of. eight and have struggled with an. addiction for the past 20 years. >> I'm married to a corn addict. He has. struggled since he was 8 years old. I. make it like my mission to watch his. every move, which is so draining. >> Maddie and Kyle, thank you for being. here. I know this is a hard thing to. talk about and I applaud your courage in.

being willing to speak about it because. I hear this is really serious for a lot. of people like millions and millions of. guys throughout the country and the. world. How long have you all been. married? >> We've been married 6 and a half years. >> So I would say like the last year is. when I finally realized that like this. addiction is so much deeper. And I'm. like, how many times do I try to break a. bad habit and I have to start over? I. mean, this is an addiction. >> Well, I know hearing Kyle and Mattiey's.

story really hit home for a lot of. people. Addiction to adult content is. impacting millions of families and. relationships. Uh, my team just checked. in with them. Kyle has had a relapse and. setback in his recovery, he says, and is. now doubling down on his addiction. classes. and Maddie told us that they. still love each other and they're going. to continue to fight for their marriage. Dr. Anna Lumpy is back with us and she's. a psychiatrist and chief of Stanford.

Addiction Medicine and I just truly. believe that her book is a must- readad. It's called Dopamine Nation: Finding. Balance in the Age of Indulgence. Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Lumpky. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> In Dopamine Nation, you write I was. moved by this. You say the internet. promotes compulsive. overconumption. not merely by providing increased access. to drugs old and new, but also by.

suggesting behaviors that otherwise may. never have occurred to us. I think. that's what's happening to a lot of. people. Can you give us an example of. what you're seeing now that's new and. different? Yeah, I mean there's this. real contagion effect where because the. algorithm both feeds us videos and other. content that we specifically search for. and also novel content that we didn't go.

looking for. >> That's right. Things are just popping up. on your screen, >> right? And that's intentional, right? that that injection of novelty is. intentional to stave off boredom, to. increase watch time, to keep us clicking. and swiping even when we don't want to. >> Wow. >> So, what ends up happening is there is. this injection of very extreme content. and this can impact behaviors because it. makes people think of something that. would never have occurred to them. naturally.

You know, this is happens with drugs. So. kids seeing videos of other kids using. like unusual drugs or synthetic drugs or. drugs that they've, you know, concocted. themselves and then kids wanting to go. and try that. It it's especially. prevalent with sexual content. So sexual. images, people behaving in ways, for. example, men choking women is not. something that was, you know, would.

necessarily occur to somebody. But. there's so much choking and other kind. of seda masochistic sexual content and. and when when people go looking for. adult content that's actually the first. content that they see or that's you know. pushed to them that now you've got a lot. of people engaging in sexual behaviors. that are potentially harmful and. dangerous potentially. Um so it's this. it's this kind of thing. >> when it comes to tech which has.

infiltrated. you know all of our lives every part of. life every waking moment I think people. are confused on this like when does a. daily habit a thing that we've been. doing and think that we need to do cross. over into addiction. Addiction is a spectrum disorder, right? You can have mild, moderate or severe. addiction depending upon the severity of. the symptoms, how many symptoms there. are. But there can also be this. pre-addicted state that you might think.

of as risky use or even a bad habit. When I use the term addiction, I'm. really saying this has crossed the. threshold from being something that we. would consider a a bad habit into. something that we would really consider. a mental illness. Again, characterized. by these four C's. Out of control use, craving, compulsive use, meaning that. >> I initiate use even against my desire. and intention not to use. And then. especially consequences plus tolerance,

you know, which we've talked about. needing more potent forms over time to. get the same effect and also withdrawal. When I try to stop, I experience this. physiologic response that then pulls me. back into it. >> You you explained that pleasure and pain. work like the balance of a seessaw, right? >> How does that impact addiction? Explain. that to our audience here. >> Yeah. So I use this extended metaphor of. a balance to communicate to my patients,

my medical students, what's happening in. the brain as we go from sort of healthy. adaptive use of a substance or behavior. to unhealthy maladaptive addictive use. So if you imagine that in your reward. pathway there's something like a teeter. totter that represents how we process. pleasure and pain. When it tilts one. way, we experience pleasure. When it. tilts another, we experience pain. But. there are certain rules governing this. balance. And the first and most. important rule is that the balance wants.

to remain level which is what. neuroscientists call homeostasis. Sometimes referred to as set point. You. refer to it in your wonderful book. enough point. >> as as the enough point. >> It's it's it's the set point. That was. Dr. Ana's word, >> right? Yeah. It's it's homeostasis. And. our brains will work very hard to return. to a level balance or homeostasis with. ev any deviation from neutrality. So for. example, when we do something that's.

pleasurable uniquely for our brain that. releases dopamine, the balance tilts. toward the side of pleasure. But no. sooner has that happened than our brain. will respond by downregulating dopamine. transmission not just to baseline but. below baseline. >> So you need more, more, more, >> right? When we experience pleasurable. activities like eating, exercising, or. socializing, it triggers our brain to. produce the feel-good chemical called. dopamine. The cycle of addiction begins.

when addictive substances and behaviors. cause massive dopamine surges, which. causes our brains to both produce less. dopamine and at the same time absorb it. less efficiently. This creates a. dopamine deficit which causes us to. crave more and more of the substance or. the behavior just to feel normal. And I like to imagine that process of. neuro adaptation as these little. gremlins hopping on the pain side of the. balance to bring it level again. But the. gremlins like it on the balance so they.

don't get off as soon as we're level. They stay on until we're tilted an equal. and opposite amount to the side of pain. That is the comedown. That's the. craving, the hangover, the moment of. wanting one more potato chip or one more. joint. >> Standing in front of the pantry just. grazing looking for what is the thing I. can do to curb this anxiety that I'm. feeling. >> And remember, our brain wants to get. back to homeostasis. So, the fastest way. to do that is to have another potato. chip. Yeah. The problem is if we.

continue to consume our drug of choice. over days to weeks to months to years, those gremlins start to multiply and. pretty soon we have enough gremlins on. the pain side of the balance to fill. this whole room. And now we've entered. into addicted brain. We are in a chronic. dopamine deficit state. Now we need to. use more of our drug and more potent. forms not to get high but just to level. the balance and feel normal. And that is. what is happening to your children when. you try to take away the phones. That's.

what's happening to you when you can't. get yourself when you can't stop. scrolling. You're just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. Okay. 80% of. people coping with an addiction to. online shopping are women. Listen to. Safat's story. >> I have a shopping addiction. And over. the past 3 years, I've racked up over. $30,000 in credit card debt. 99% of it. is shopping. I have said no to going out. to dinner with friends, bought the. cheapest thing at the grocery store just. so I could buy that one thing, whatever.

it was in the moment. It's really. shameful because I'm in my mid30s. I. have a good job and yet I'm struggling. to pay rent because I keep spending more. than I can afford. It was also scared to. come on here and say this because it. feels like I failed. >> Oh yeah. Oh wow. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Um Safat joins us from Brooklyn. >> Hi Oprah. What do you think is at the. root of your shopping addiction? I I was. I was really interested to read about it. because I go online and I It's a.

dangerous thing. Let me just tell you, it's a dangerous thing. And you get a. little I I guess I'm getting a little. dopamine hit. Add to cart. So exciting. Add to cart again. Before you know it, I. have three blouses for $24.99. >> Yeah. None of which you need probably. >> None of which I need. Oh, I didn't need. that little prop top. So I have to. $24.99 then I'm like what else can I. get? So does it feel like that? Is that. what it feels like for you? You just get. a little hit or. >> Yes, it absolutely does feel like that.

I for me the root of my addiction stems. from I think childhood. I've talked. about this with my therapist and uh my. family moved to America when I was 6. years old and we moved to a upper middle. class white neighborhood and I noticed. all of the kids would get gifts, Christmas gifts, birthday gifts and I. was getting like handme-downs and uh you. know sharing a room with my siblings and. so I think what I told myself in those. moments is when you're older you're.

going to be able to have these things. You're going to be able to fit in. So. now that I have a job, what I'm. realizing that I do on a regular basis. is I buy these things almost to satisfy. my inner child to tell myself, okay, you. you've you've made it right. And so. that's become my coping mechanism. And. additionally, I feel unfulfilled in many.

aspects of my life. And I think instead. of sitting with the discomfort of the. sadness or disgust or whatever I feel in. myself, I resort to let me find. something to buy because that's what I. trained myself from a young age is what. would make me happy. Uh so I continue to. do it. I get a little boost of dopamine. and then what I really feel is shame and. guilt for doing it because I've acrewed.

so much debt. >> Yeah. I you've racked up over $30,000 in. credit card debt that you can't afford. to pay. >> Yes. Correct. >> So you feel good in the moment where. you're ordering it. Do you feel good. then when you're you feel good when. you're adding to cart and then when it. arrives you you're ashamed? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> A little. So I as soon as I buy it, instead of feeling happy, I feel immense. amount of shame and guilt. >> And then when it arrives, I'm excited to.

open the box. >> And I've also been for years now hiding. my packages from my partner. Not that he. absolutely has no problem with it. He's. encouraging of me doing the best for me. to uh get over the addiction. But I. think internally I feel so much guilt. that I will hide the packages. I will. lie about it. So I'll open it and then. I'll feel guilt and shame again and then. instead of dealing with it, I'll go and. purchase something else. >> Dr. Lipkkey, what do you want to say?

>> Gosh, so much here. Okay. So, you. started talking about some early. childhood experiences that you think. contribute and I think that's important. to reflect on that, but I think there's. a danger of spending too much time. looking for the root cause of addiction. when there doesn't actually need to be. an underlying reason other than we're. living in an addictenic world where. shopping has become drugified. The. medium of being online itself constantly.

sends us triggers to buy. That's the. whole business model of. >> you can't read an article without what. we're all trying to do now is filter out. all the ads as you're trying to like. communicate with anything. Yes. >> Yes. And we get a little hit of. dopamine, not just when we're shopping, but just getting a reminder that we. might be able to go shopping or that. there might be something available that. actually also stimulates the brain's.

reward pathway and then sets up that. state of craving that makes us want to. go shopping. And the reason this is so. important is because yes, it's good to. talk about your childhood and some early. underlying, you know, issues that might. be contributing to it, but you could. talk about that all day and it's not. going to get at the root of the problem. if you're still exposing your brain to. this very addictive medium that's.

constantly triggering your brain, releasing dopamine, and then leading you. down this road. Which is why. self-binding strategies are so. important. Self-binding is where we. create literal and metacognitive. barriers between ourselves and our drug. of choice so we can press the pause. button between desire and consumption. >> So what does she need to do? >> So what you need to do is you need to. delete any shopping apps that you have, right? You need to possibly get rid of.

any online pay vehicles. Anything that. makes it easy and frictionless for you. to buy something is is definitely. something that you should eliminate. You. know, online shopping or shopping. addiction is a huge and growing problem, especially as you commented Oprah, among. women. >> So, these self-binding strategies are. really key. If you really want to take. it to the extreme, you will get rid of. all of your credit cards and you will. only carry cash and you will only buy in.

cash and not online. And this seems. extreme, but what my patients discover. is that it's actually so much easier. than expecting that you can constantly. stimulate your brain and then resist the. pull that's created by all of these. stimuli that are inviting us to consume. >> How does this sound to you, Safot? >> Yeah, >> that is that absolutely sounds like a. great idea. Something I've tried in the.

past. Okay. uh is getting rid of my. credit cards. What what happened is when. I'm in a anxious. mindset or when I'm sad or depressed, I've opened up new cards. So, usually. when I'm aware of what I'm doing, I can. continue to do it and I can perform. But. then as soon as I'm in a state where I. can't regulate and I'm anxious or. whatever it is, I I will get more credit.

cards or I will subscribe to whatever it. is and I think I go back to that state. So I guess my question is when I'm. feeling like that, how do I. self-regulate and how do I get myself to. not do those things? Yeah, it's a. wonderful description of the kind of. dissociative state that we can go into. visav our drug of choice where we're. just sort of like we're we're we're out. of our minds essentially and we're just. doing the behaviors. >> This is where self-binding matters.

because. >> you know if you if it's harder for you. to get the next credit card or you just. have to take the time to get a credit. card, you might be able to come out of. that state. But more importantly, what. you need to have is a list of other. healthier coping strategies for when you. get anxious. And this is where I really. recommend also engaging in what we call. mutual help groups or self-help groups. The prototypical one is Alcoholics. Anonymous, but Alcoholics Anonymous was. founded 100 years ago and since then.

there has been a proliferation of. self-help groups for almost every. maladaptive behavior you can imagine. And it can be an incredibly helpful and. effective way for people. >> There has to be one for shoppers. >> There is there absolutely is. And and. you know the 12step model really works. and it often involves getting a sponsor. um somebody else in the group and then. then in those moments when you're you. know anxious or feeling cravings you. have somebody to talk to. >> You have somebody to talk to and that.

person's typically available 247 and. they know exactly what you're going. through. And I say to my patients, you. know, as much as I care about you, I'm. not available to you 24/7. But a 12step. sponsor, they would answer the phone in. the middle of the night. So I think, and. again, thinking about self-binding. strategies, we massively co-regulate. based on who is around us and the. behaviors they're engaging in. So if you. surround yourself with other people who. understand this problem uniquely and.

that you can turn to for help, I think. that will really help you in those. moments. >> because you're not alone. You are not. alone. There are millions of people, most of them women. >> going through exactly the same thing. that you're going through. >> And you're a smart woman. >> Yeah. >> You are an intelligent woman. You are a. gracious and kind person. you will. overcome this if you choose to do that. because you know how to put all the. things together to overcome this. It's.

it's it's a it's a decision on your part. right now. >> as as to how hard you want to work at. it. >> But I know you can do it. >> You heard that from Oprah. So that's. that you. >> were raised to be able to do it. You. were raised to be able to do it. That. little girl coming from another land, another place, another culture, being in. a surroundings where there were people. that you didn't know, being able to. manage yourself and succeed in that. environment. You can do this. You can do.

this. This thing is not bigger than you. Okay. >> Thank you. I appreciate that. >> Yes. >> Oprah told me to stop shopping. So, >> it's absolutely. It's absolutely. >> That's right. You're. >> Thank you, Safat. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me. You. know, gaming has become a way of life. for children and teens and young adults, too. Here's a quick look at Deborah. sharing her story. >> So, I've got a question for the masses. For the masses, for the people. Um, what. were we doing before we started playing. video games and getting addicted? Okay. Because I feel like I feel like I.

haven't been playing video games that. long, but at the same time, what was I doing. beforehand? I lose hours playing these. things. I'm talking minutes on hours on. days and I've only been playing video. games for like a year. I've been playing for a year. So. question, what were we doing beforehand? How were we spending our free time? >> Yeah, that's my question for for you, Deborah, who joins us from Chicago. What were what were what were you doing.

before? How do you answer that question? What were you doing before? >> Yeah, I feel like I had a collection of. hobbies. I used to paint um like with. acrylics. I would sew a lot of projects. Anything crafty and working with my. hands um was something I found appealing. to me. >> And now you spend as much as seven hours. a day playing video games. >> Mhm. Um and I think it's still in some. ways I use like a controller so I still. feel like it's still using my hands in. some kind of way. So it still stimulates. the same kind of crafting mindset that I. have. Um but yeah, I'm spending a lot of. hours a lot of time of my day um playing.

video games most of the time. >> And what is it about gaming for you? Um. I think it's about two aspects that come. to mind. The first is accessibility. So. in comparison to my other hobbies, I. require a lot of space and setup time. Um given like with sewing, I need to get. the fabric. I need to get the sewing. notions for when it comes to cooking or. baking. I have to grab the ingredients, go to the store potentially to grab. things I'm running low of. Um preheat. the oven. And then when it comes to. gaming, it's just like, oh, I can just. press a power button on my computer and. just be on the game and it's much more.

accessible, I think. And I hear most of. your friends are gamers that you've. never even met in person. >> And so that's the second component is. the social aspect. I think as you play. these games, a lot of them are online. games where you can meet other people. from around the world even. Um so in the. midst of learning how to play this game, I've met people online that like are now. forming like a mini gaming community. And because of that, whenever someone's. online, they'll send a message saying, "Hey, want to get on and play?" So. you're like, "Oh, like cool person, nice. friendship that I'm building with this. person. Of course, like I'll get on and.

bond over this game with you." So then. there's like voice chat that you can. talk to each other on and they encourage. a lot of times for you to stay online. even. >> So you're here to ask a question because. you think it's become an issue for you, a problem. >> Um I have a question just to know like. the longer term impacts of it. I think. because like I mentioned in the video, I've only been playing for about a year. >> Um but I'm starting to see differences. in like how I carry myself but then also. other people. I'm curious about are. there any psychological or like. emotional impacts when it comes to. having extremely high highs? Cuz a lot.

of the game is rewarding for like doing. good things in the game, but also low. lows can happen all within a like 20. minute span. And I feel like knowing. that, what kind of impact does that have. on the body for extended periods of. time? >> All right, Dr. Lunkkey, what do you want. to say to Deborah? You know, one of the. negative consequences of our addictive. behaviors, especially our consumption of. video games and other digital media, is. the very important but subtle. consequence of opportunity costs. And.

what I mean by opportunity costs is all. of the other things we're not doing. >> because we're spending all of our time. online. And in your case, it's, you. know, the crafts you're not doing, the. people, the friendships you might be. making with people who actually, you. know, live in and around where you live. that you could meet up with in person. >> Human connection versus virtual. connection. >> That that's it. And it's not to say that. there can't be virtual connection. You. know, those can be meaningful.

connections, too. A lot of people talk. about the community that they build. online and and that can be a community. but you know a potentially positive but. not when it replaces all of our other. community. So I think that that's the. first thing I want to say and then in. response to your question. I think you articulated it really well. It appears to me that video games are. your drug of choice because it didn't. take you very long after you started. playing that it was consuming many many.

hours in your day displacing other. activities you used to enjoy. Which gets. to this hijacked brain. When we are. constantly exposing our brains to this. highly reinforcing intoxicant, one of the things that happens is we. have this narrowing of our focus where. other things are no longer enjoyable. They lose their salience. Salience is. what makes something attractive to us. So now I could well imagine that if you.

tried to go back to doing your crafts, you would be frustrated. You would be. bored. the rewards would be too delayed. And you know, in my my sense is what you. might want to do is take a break from. video games for long enough to kind of. reset your reward pathways so that the. world can open itself up again to you. And the reason I always recommend four. weeks is because in the first two weeks, you will probably feel worse before you. feel better. You'll be in withdrawal,

right? Those gremlins on the pain side. of your balance that have accumulated. will smash you. I know. The last time. you were here and you said 4 weeks, recommending a 13-year-old be off the. phone for 4 weeks. Everybody in the. control room went, "Oh, that's never. happening. Four weeks is too long." Cuz. four weeks feels like, "How can I do. that?". >> But if you don't do it for four weeks, go ahead. >> Yeah. What we see in clinical care and. what the the published literature. suggests is if you don't do it for long. enough, all you experience is the. withdrawal and you're like, "Well, wait. a minute. I need this thing to not be.

depressed and anxious." You don't. realize that the depression, anxiety, restlessness when you're not playing is. a result of playing, right? And you need. to abstain from long enough to allow. your reward pathways from homeostasis to. reset itself. >> It's like the heroin addict coming off. of the heroin. Exactly. You got to go. through the shakes first. >> You got to get out of that that state of. craving. >> Okay. Explore that. Okay. >> Okay. Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much, Deborah. You may or. may not be surprised to know that nearly.

50% of men aged 18 to 49 have an online. sports betting account. I didn't know. this. >> Yeah, it's really a scourge. Here's another shocking stat. Nearly one. in five people with a gambling disorder. will attempt suicide. One in five. That's the highest suicide rate of any. of the addictions. Now, Matt is joining. us from Massachusetts. My team saw you. nodding while Safat was talking. I hear.

that you've lost more than $100,000. on sports betting apps. $100,000 that. you could not afford to lose. So, tell. us how this happened, Matt. >> Yeah, thank you for having me on. Um, you know, my story starts when I was 14. years old. Um, that was the fir that was. when I placed my first bet. My father. had given me some money to bet on the. Patriots and Seahawks Super Bowl. Um, and you know, I won. I hit that first. bat. Um, and it was a feeling I never.

really felt before. I was sitting on my. friend's couch. I've compared it to. hitting a game winner in a basketball. game while I was sitting on that couch. >> Um, it was unbelievable. I deep down I. kind of knew I love gambling then. >> Um, but it's it's difficult to gamble. when you're a 14-year-old, right? It's. you need help. You need adults to give. you access or give you money. So, I. really didn't start gambling consistent. consistently until I turned 19. Uh, I. was a freshman in college. I went to a. small division three school in Boston to. play basketball. I got hurt early on in.

my freshman year. Um, and I decided I. was done. I didn't want to play. basketball anymore. So, you know, now I. have all this free time. I have access. to more money than I've ever had before. Um, and I needed to fill that void. You. know, that structure that basketball had. given me my entire life was gone. So, you know, I gradually start gambling, you know, in the morning, in between. class, and I start gambling during. class. Um, and it gets to the point. where I'm gambling around the clock, you. know, 8 hours a day. >> Um, I wasn't socializing. I wasn't.

exercising. Um, I was everything I was. doing was to try to gamble more and. more. You know, in the summertime, I. would go home and I would save up money. that was supposed to last me either my. freshman year of college or my sophomore. year of college. And within weeks of. getting back to school, it was all gone. you know, I had no money. I was gambling. thousands and thousands of dollars away. in weeks. Um, you know, 90 to 95% of it. was online sports gambling. There was. some casino games involved, but it was. really online sports gambling. >> Help us to understand that. What is it.

about online gambling that makes it so. hard to quit? >> I think it's because it can seem at the. at the outset, at the beginning, it can. seem so harmless, right? There's no. there's not a lot of physical signs. You're not addicted to a substance. you're not addicted, you're not having. withdrawals, right? So, it can start. harmless, but it's that it's that. adrenaline rush. At least for me, I got. that adrenaline rush that was so strong, right? I'm not a physical adrenaline. junkie. I don't want to, you know, jump. out of a plane or go bungee jumping, but.

that adrenaline that I got from. gambling, I loved it. I thrived on it. It's so interesting because I was. reading your background and you had. shared with one of my producers that it. it wasn't even the when you were 14. years old and had that first experience. that's gotten you hooked. It was that. you won didn't you win $20,000 at one. point, right? >> Yeah. When I was 19, um freshman in. college, I put in $100 into a gambling.

account. Um, and within two days I ran. it up to $20,000, you know, and I'm at. that age I'm thinking that's all the. money in the world, right? I'm taking. pictures of it. I'm sending it to. everybody I know. Like, look what I just. did. Look at this. And two days later, it was gone. You know, I didn't I didn't. withdraw a single penny. >> You didn't even You didn't even get to. spend it. >> No. No. Not even a little bit. I gambled. it all away. And I think a part of me. was chasing that that first big hit ever. since. You know, it could it could be. compared to someone who may be addicted.

to drugs, you know, chasing that. original high. >> I was chasing the first big win and I I. had to surpass it, but I never did. I. never did. >> Never did. You still haven't p surpassed. it. >> No, I have not. >> No. What do you want to say, Dr. Limik? >> Oh my gosh, so much. Um, well, first of. all, of why is gambling so addictive and. what's going on in the brain there? What's going on in Matt's brain with. that? >> Right. >> Yeah. So monetary rewards again light up. that same reward pathway as drugs and.

alcohol, release dopamine, um work through essentially the same tra. trajectory as addiction to drugs and. alcohol where we start using usually to. have fun or to solve a problem. If it. works for us, we go back again and again. and eventually if we cross over into. addiction, we're now marshalling all of. our available resources to get the drug, use the drug, recover, and use again. Gambling is a very wellrecoognized, very potentially severe and.

life-threatening addiction, just like. addiction to drugs and alcohol. >> And and and and also what did you hear. me say this earlier, Matt, that one in. five people who are gamblers end up. >> suicidal. >> Yeah, it it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I can understand why. Because you end up. losing everything. You're chasing. chasing chasing chasing chasing. You. lose everything. You're betting, you. know, you lose your family, you can't. pay your rent, you can't pay, the car is. taken away, everything. Yeah. You lose. everything. >> And it's so inexplicable from the.

outside because you just feel like, well, just stop. Like, just stop. >> But what really happens is that. >> people who get addicted to gambling are. ultimately not even interested in the. monetary wins. That that's how it. begins. But what it eventually becomes. is the desire to be in this alternative. self-created universe where all of the. rest of your problems fall away and. you've created this world within a world.

where you can have the illusion again. that you're controlling that you're. moving forward. >> That's why there are no clocks in. casinos. >> Yes. Yes. And no windows. >> Yes. Exactly. And there's some very. interesting brain studies um of. pathological gamblers showing that. there's a surge of dopamine when they. win, just like there would be for. someone who's not addicted to gambling. But with pathological gamblers, people. who are addicted to gambling, they. actually get a surge of dopamine when.

they're losing. And the understanding of that is that on. some level, and this is a phenomenon. called loss chasing. Yeah. People who. are addicted to gambling want to lose on. some level because then it justifies. >> chasing chasing it. >> That's right. Staying in the game. longer. >> So it becomes this horrible. self-fulfilling prophecy. An alternate. universe. The real world falls away. The. complete loss of perspective. And my.

heart just goes out to you. And also let. me say the other millions of people. around the world who are struggling with. very severe gambling addictions, which. by the way has never been easier. In the United States, online sports. betting used to be illegal everywhere. In the last decade, it has become. completely normalized, gone online, is. incredibly accessible, and now even. sports franchises are colluding with.

these sports betting corporations, encouraging people who watch sports to. bet. It's terrible. And we see a 300 to. 500% increase in calls to pathological. gambling hotlines in states where online. sports betting has been made legal. Which brings us Oprah back to this. concept of access. One of the biggest. risk factors for addiction is not your. childhood trauma, you know, not.

something about you uniquely and and you. know, lack of willpower. It's simple. access to our drug of choice. And it doesn't mean you're a bad person. It doesn't mean that you had all these. horrible things happen to you. Yes. And. Matt, how common would you say this. issue is among your peers, the young. men, you know? >> I think the issue it can be common. I. would say most males that I've. interacted with, you know, when I was in. college or even now as a 26-y old, they.

gamble on some level. >> because it is so accessible. Like what. Dr. Lunkkey said, right? my my gambling. accelerated once it became legalized in. Massachusetts. It was just so it was so. quick. It was so accessible. >> Yeah. >> Um but I I think especially college-aged. males, right? They have all this freedom. now. And you know, it's so accessible. Everyone that I'm in contact with. gambles on some level. >> Yeah. And also not only accessible, but. nobody would even know. I mean, if.

you're a drug addict, we can see it. If. you're a food addict, we can see it. If. you're, you know, even a shopping. addict, there's all this, you know, all. the things that, uh, Safod is hiding. around her home, >> right? >> Um, what is your question for Dr. Lumpy? Do you have one? >> I do. Um, you know, I've been in. recovery um, from gambling uh, since. October of 24. Um, and. >> Congratulations. That's. >> Thank you so much. I appreciate it. >> Yeah. >> Um, you know, during that time, I've.

also been sober. Um, I don't identify as. an alcoholic, but I was just curious, you know, how strong is the addict mind? Like someone like me who does not. identify as an alcoholic, you know, am I. prone to other addictions, either. alcoholism, drug addiction, whatever it. may be, you know, because I have an. addict mind, I am addicted to gambling. Am I prone to other things as well? >> Yeah. So family and twin studies uh. suggest that some people are innately. more vulnerable to addiction than others.

and that if it's not one thing it'll be. another. So there are differences there. in terms of you know how we come into. the world and how likely it is that we. will get addicted if exposed to our drug. of choice. Um, for example, if you have. a biological parent or grandparent with. an alcohol addiction, you were more. likely to develop an alcohol addiction. even if raised outside of that substance. using home. Wow. >> So, genetics is a piece of this. >> Um, the other part of your question is. sort of like, you know, are all of these.

I this is what I understood your. question to be that, you know, how does. the alcohol relate to the gambling? because it's interesting that you gave. both both of them up and I think that. was really smart because um you know we. talked about drug of choice and how when. we meet that drug of choice that's. uniquely suited to our brain it's like a. lock and a key but on the other hand all. reinforcing substances and behaviors. release dopamine in our brain's reward. pathway and anytime we're using any. substance or behavior even if it's not.

our drug of choice we're pinging that. reward pathway and kind of setting. ourselves up for relapse to our drug of. choice. Which is why very often when. folks are trying to give up whatever. their drug of choice is, we also. recommend that they give up drugs that. are adjacent to that drug. And somehow, I don't know if you got advice to do. that or you instinctively knew that. giving up alcohol would be important so. that you wouldn't be disinhibited and. more likely to gamble. And we see that.

all the time, you know, encouraging. folks give both of these things up to. together. For example, there's good data. showing that people who try to quit. drinking who smoke cigarettes, if they. give up cigarettes at the same time, they'll have better outcomes for both. And I think that, you know, that relates. to a lot of other sort of paired. addictions as well. >> Can I ask you this, Matt? What got you. into recovery? Was it that you had to. you had to hit bottom? I know you. dropped out of three colleges. You were. going through a lot.

>> Yes. >> Your personality changed. You were. lying. You were doing all kinds of. things, stealing from your parents. >> Yeah, that's kind of what made me hit. bottom. You know, I just I couldn't pay. my bills anymore. I was gambling with my. rent money, my utility money, and I. started stealing from uh family members. Um you know, and I ended up forging a. check in my parents' name to pay my. rent. >> Um at that point, you know, our. relationship is somewhat crumbling and. we had a conversation and I ended up. going to treat a treatment center called. Her and Wellness uh in Massachusetts.

Um, you know, I spent three months there. as an inpatient. >> Was it hard to come clean to your. parents? >> Uh, yes. Stealing from them. It's, you. know, when I was doing it, it felt. awful. >> Yeah. >> But as, you know, as soon as you get. that money, I'm off and running again, gambling, and that that guilt and that. shame is out of your mind until you lose. again. And it's almost like you come. back to reality. Um, >> you know, but the thing that helped me. was, you know, going to Har and Wellness. and spending 5 months there in.

treatment. You know, I didn't have a. phone for almost two months. I had no. access to technology. You know, getting. that break. Um, you know, just getting. away from it really helped me, you know, center myself and really see how insane. I was behaving and what I was doing to. the people around me. >> You got to step away from it. >> Yeah. >> To see yourself. Yes. Do you like who. you are becoming or return to self? Yes, >> much it I feel like I was I'm returning. to the person I was before I started. gambling. You know, I can be.

>> a good son, a good brother, a good. friend. You know, I can have honest. intentions and I think that's what I'm. most proud of today. >> Wow. Well, thank you for sharing your. story with us. Thank you for sharing. with us and with the world and it takes. a lot of courage. I know a lot of people. listening are going to hear themselves. and see themselves in you and so we. thank you for having the courage to. share it. Really. >> and well thank you for having me on. It. was. >> continued success in your recovery. Go. well with that. >> Yes. Yes. Keep going.

>> Go well with that. Go well. >> I will. Thank you so much. Oprah, >> can I say one thing about moral compass. and addiction? >> When people are deep in their addiction, they will often do things that are. outside their moral compass. Matt talked. about stealing from his parents. You. know, incredibly shameful, so brave of. him to admit that. But I think it's. really important for us to understand. that when the reward pathway gets. hijacked by this drug of choice, we. really are not ourselves and we are. really are vulnerable to doing things.

that are outside of our moral compass. Um, essentially because our brain comes. to mistake our drug of choice in Matt's. case, gambling for a something that we. need for survival. Dopamine is really. our survival neurotransmitter. It says. approach this thing, get it. You need it. to survive. M. >> so I just think it's really important. for people to understand that, you know, we we would most of us do things that.

we're very ashamed of outside of our. morality once we get into that hijacked. brain state of addiction. >> That's an important thing to say, I. think. And we I think a lot of people. realize that when they have family. members who are severe drug addicts, >> like your family member on crack cocaine. or on heroin, you say, "Oh, that's not. who I know them to be.". >> But we don't think the same about it. when it's shopping or gambling. Thank.

you for bringing that to our attention. You say by practicing radical honesty. that my guests today are actually taking. the first step in curbing their. addictions. So being able to be honest. about what what is actually going on. How does radical honesty work? >> So radical honesty is where we make a. commitment to tell the truth about. everything. >> Yeah. >> And this is really important in. recovery. In my experience, the patients. who can get into and maintain recovery.

are the ones who make a commitment to. truthtelling primarily because they've. learned that. >> that's what Safat, Deborah, and Matt. have all done today. >> Yeah. Ju just by showing up and sharing. in this way. >> Um but but it means that we can't even. lie about like, you know, why we didn't. want to go to the party or why we're 5. minutes late for the meeting because. we're all prone to lie. The average. adult tells one to two lies per day. Usually it's small lies to cover up our. own foibless or selfishness. But when we. make this commitment to radical honesty, what happens is we are then also forced.

to see the behaviors for what they are. >> I would I would see how a commitment to. radical honesty really creates another. vibration for you. You're operating at. another level. >> Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And it also importantly gets us out of. this shame loop. Yes, >> we have heard as a recurring theme here. how much shame people feel about their. addictions and and that is so true, so. common. We all feel horrible shame at. not being able to control these.

behaviors. And shame itself can. perpetuate the addiction because it's. such a horrible feeling that then we. just keep using to not feel those. feelings. So, a way to get out of this. destructive shame cycle is to commit to. being honest with another human being as. these folks did today as a way again to. become aware of our behaviors, but also. to create that vulnerability that allows. people to really connect with us, right? It becomes a source of intimacy that. then becomes its own source of positive.

and healthy dopamine. >> You are so good at helping us understand. ourselves and understand our addictions. And if you want to know more, read. Dopamine Nation. So, thank you so much, Dr. Limkkey, for being here. And thank. you to Matt and Safat and Deborah for. your radical honesty and sharing your. stories. Dr. Libsky's New York Times. bestseller, Dopamine Nation, is. available wherever books are sold. See. you next time. Go well. If you are among. the 57% of Americans who feel they are.

addicted to their smartphones, Dr. Anna. Limkey's book, Dopamine Nation, it's a. must readad. She breaks down why. smartphones are so addictive and shares. tangible ideas for how to manage your. relationship with technology. You can. buy her book by scanning the QR code you. see on your screen right now. Our. listeners tell us that the podcast is. resonating with you and is serving as a. bright spot in your day. That means a. lot to me. So here's the thing. I would. really appreciate it if you like and.

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