The Co-Founders of Claude AI Tell Oprah About the Impact Artificial Intelligence Has on Your Life

I was talking to parents recently who. lost their son to suicide through a. chatbot, and the parents don't even know. they're speaking to them. >> We don't allow users under the age of 18. to use Claude. >> How do you know if they're not they're. not lying? >> Will we even be thinking anymore? Will. there be a need to think? What do you. think of people falling in love [music]. with it now? >> I think that's a bad idea. Do you want. to be addicted to these things, or do. you want them to help you live your. life? It it goes back, I think, Dario, to what I read that you'd said before, that we can only diffuse this at the.

speed of trust. Trust. >> At the speed of trust, and trust [music]. is currently in short supply. Something. is happening to humanity with this. technology, bigger than anything that, you know, maybe has happened in hundreds. of years. And so, we need to find some. way for everyone to be an active. participant in what is happening. Hi, everybody, and welcome to the Oprah. podcast. I'm here with two people who. are shaping our present world and our.

future one. And I hear you all don't. love that description all the time, but it's the truth. I think most people. would agree that that is pretty. accurate. Dario and Daniela Amodei head. the global artificial intelligence. company they founded, Anthropic, which. right now, at the time of this. conversation, is reportedly valued at. $900 billion. And. and over a million people a day are. signing up for Claude. These are the. parents of Claude. >> [laughter].

>> We're all getting familiar with that. name, Claude, Anthropic's. next-generation AI chatbot and. assistant. Many of you already use that. every single day. So, welcome to the. podcast, the parents of Claude. >> [laughter]. >> And others. Thanks for having us. Thanks. for having us. So, I have to give a. disclaimer. I I use AI for research all. the time, and I use it for a lot of. other things, but not for interviewing. questions, cuz I thought I have to keep. the heart of myself in the questions. until today. So, this morning I asked.

Claude, "What is the most pressing question. Oprah Winfrey should ask Anthropic CEO. Dario Amodei in a sit-down interview?". And Claude responded with this. It said, "You've said there's a meaningful chance. the technology your company is building. could cause human extinction, and yet. you're racing to build it faster. How do. you justify that to the rest of us who.

didn't get a vote?". Dario, would you like to answer Claude? >> I thought that was a pretty damn good. question, I must say. I agree. [laughter] First of all, let no one ever. say that Claude is soft on me or Claude. is biased towards me or towards. Anthropic. Like, you know, Wow, I. thought. >> Claude Claude throws hard balls. Like, Claude doesn't Claude doesn't Claude. doesn't doesn't pull its punches. Um, so. to actually answer the question, um, this technology is an epochal change for. humanity. You know, at some point humans.

started to, you know, started to use. fire. At some point humans, you know, built built steam engines and factories, and that created the Industrial. Revolution. And so when I when I say. things like this, I'm I'm taking a very. zoomed-out perspective, right? If I. said, "Well, I don't know. I think the. Industrial Revolution could like lead to. very powerful weapons and kill a bunch. of people." That That's definitely. That's definitely true, right? >> Yeah. >> cases it it it it did did do that. Um, but but, you know, we we understand that.

the Industrial Revolution as a as a. process, as a technological event, was, you know, worth doing. We don't still. want to be living in caves, but we need. to manage it in the right way. And and. so the way we think about this company. is, look, there's many companies. building this technology. It's something. that is happening to humanity one way or. another. We're. we're we're in it. >> And there's this train, it's going very. fast in some direction. You don't want. it to crash. You can't stop the train.

But what you can do is you can steer the. train. Um steer the train so that it. doesn't hit the rocks. And and you know, I think the way we think about Anthropic. is we want to do things the right way. We want to decrease that risk, hopefully. to zero. And and do things the right. way. >> But why doesn't everybody want to. decrease the risk? Why is there such a. What is the race toward? You know, it's. like the technology has all of these. commercial applications, some of which. we deploy, you know, people use the.

technology. People use the technology. every day. I think it's both easy to get. caught up in that and some of it is. genuinely necessary to fund the company. So, it's very entangled, you know, to. get it right, you have to do a lot of. things. And we find ourselves every day. wrestling with these questions, right? You know, who who you know, who should. we uh give the technology to? Who should. we not? What should be our policies? If. you have very strict policies on child.

safety, in some ways the product can be. a a a a worse experience for adults cuz. you can't fully tell the difference. So, there's all these trade-offs you make. and some of them are obvious, some of. them are not. But everyone has a hard. time. I have empathy for everyone. involved in in in this industry who's at. least trying to get it right. I think. we've done a better job. I think we've. been more thoughtful, but but you know, I I I think this is a hard situation for. everyone. Okay, I gave a similar prompt. to Claude for you, Daniela, and Claude.

responded. A good opening question for Daniela. should do two things. Humanize her. Oh. Oprah's specialty. Oh, I thought. Very. good. >> Claude. Claude knows me. He does. Okay. It does. Okay. And. >> [laughter]. >> and and set up the harder territory to. come. Something like you and your. brother are building something you both. believe could either be the best or the. worst thing that ever happens to. humanity. What's a Thanksgiving dinner. like at the Amodei house?

>> [laughter]. >> I feel I feel we're like shadow boxing. with our own with our own creation here, right? I'll I'll let you answer, but uh. >> Yes. You know, I think there's an important. caveat here actually, which is that. Dario and I tried to maintain some time. outside of work where we're just. siblings. So, at holidays, yes. At holidays and. actually just once a week when we're. not, you know, when we're both home, which is to be fair not every week, Dario comes over, he plays with my kids,

we hang out together, we play video. games, we watch movies, we just spend. time being siblings together. And I. think that's really important for a. number of reasons. I mean, we were. siblings for a long time before we. founded Anthropic. We're going to be. siblings forever, you know, even after. Anthropic. And I think there's something. valuable also about our ability to. connect on a human level that I actually. do think makes us better at our jobs. We. don't talk about work when we get. together usually, but there's something. about just remembering who we are and.

and why we got into this that I think is. really powerful. That being said, at Thanksgiving dinner, you know, Dario and I. I I think I think our our family, our. friends, there's so much curiosity about. why we're doing what we're doing. And. now you can read about, you know, what. we've done in the news, but it's so. different I think to be able to, you. know, speak openly with each other and. and with people who are you know, trying. to wrap their head around this new.

technology that's very complicated, that's very unprecedented, and to just. understand like, how are you guys going. to do this the right way, right? You say. you want to do do the right way, tell us. how you're doing that. And I think. there's something um like special, it's. a privilege to be able to hold that. responsibility and try and display that. when we talk to each other and when when. we talk to others. It's so interesting. because we're at a time, I think, where. so many people. are using AI, we hear about it every.

day, and the perception in the world is. that your company, Anthropic, that you. are concerned about safety, you are. concerned about risks, you are concerned. about regulation, and the human factor. in how this technology is going to. impact our lives. From everything I've. read and heard, that so would that be an. accurate assessment? Yeah, so you know, the way I I think we. try to think about this is that. artificial intelligence is different.

than other technologies that have been. developed recently. There's incredible promise and potential. for what we think AI will be able to do. in the future, even what it's starting. to do today. Everything from helping to. cure disease and help people really. around the world get access to education. and learning, but it's also it is a very. new technology and it comes with real. risks. Risks around child welfare and. child safety, risks around scary things.

like, you know, biological and chemical. weapons. And really at Anthropic, we're. we're incorporated as a public benefit. corporation because our goal is to try. and develop this technology as safely as. possible so that we can achieve so many. of the good things that we think could. come out of it without many of the bad. things happening. >> So incorporated, just explain what that. means. You're incorporated as a public. benefit corporation. I heard that you. all have pledged that 80% of your wealth. is going to go to philanthropic causes.

Yes, that's right. So public benefit. corporation is a form of of corporation, but it has that word benefit in there. because we believe that for something. that's as transformative as artificial. intelligence, again, it's just. different. It's different than what. other technologies that have recently. been developed look like. And I think. from our perspective, when we. incorporated as a PBC, it was because we. wanted it to be at the foundation, right. in the founding documents of what we.

were building, that we have to, legally. by our structure, balance commercial. interests and the public benefit. Mhm. And for us, the public benefit is the. social good, a social mission part of. Anthropic. And the 80% pledge that Dario and I and. our other five co-founders have all. taken is really in in spirit and in. keeping with that mission. It's this. idea that, you know, we're really doing. this because we want AI to go well for.

everybody, and we hope that if the. company is successful, we'll be able to. also do a lot of good in the world. philanthropically. >> it's so interesting that you say 80%. How do we know that you're actually. going to give 80% and not 67? Well, we've we've actually written about it. publicly, and we've we've signed some. sort of, I think, probably not literally. legally binding, but we've all of the. co-founders said, "We pledge and commit. to each other, to the company, legally, that we're going to give 80% of our. wealth that we get from Anthropic.". >> Yeah, I mean, we're already thinking. about how to start a foundation. I mean,

we haven't actually, you know, equity isn't liquid, so we can't we. can't actually move it yet, but but, you. know, this is our this is our intent. It's not going to move all at once, but. this is something we we very seriously. intend to do. Okay, so you now a a. public benefit corporation, and you. started out, you're the older brother, you all started out as kids. You wanted. to do something good for the world. Has. this surpassed any idea or dream that. you had for doing good for the world? >> what what when you imagine these things. as kids, you you never you're never sure.

whether it's, you know, it's real or. it's going to come to pass, right? Many. people must imagine these things, but. no, we we talked to each other as kids. all the time and we said it'd be great. to work together. It you know, it'd be. great to try and make something good. happen in the world. >> you think that was going to be? >> I I you know, I honestly, I never. thought it would be a company. I. imagined myself as a scientist and in a. way, it's a very scientifically centered. company and it and you know, it's based. on my career as a researcher and you. know, Dario's career as a leader of. researchers and engineers, but I never.

imagined that we would found a company. together, but I think it was just. just seeing how tech companies operate. I I just been in enough places where I. think both of us thought, "Huh, maybe we. can do this better. Maybe maybe, you. know, we have maybe we have our own. ideas about how to do this better and. and you know, we should start a company. with, you know, the people we're friends. with, the people we really like, the. people we trust to do this in the right. way." And so and so it sort of evolved. step by step. And that's how we have.

Anthropic. That's that's how we have. Anthropic, more or less. Yeah. Has it. surpassed everything you imagined though. at this point? I think. probably I speak for both me and Dario. when I say like we're just so like. surprised at how things have gone, right? I mean, I I really agree with him. that I think when we were younger, we. both always knew we wanted to do. something to try and make the world. better. And Dario was always brilliant. and gifted as a mathematician, as a.

physicist, as a scientist, and I was. always so inspired by how he used that. for good, right? He went and studied he. did biophysics at Stanford and was. really trying to use this incredible. brain of his to to help cure disease, to. help people. And I think on my end, you. know, I started my career working in. global development because I really felt. it was important that people around the. world have equal access to opportunity. to healthcare, to medicine, to. education. And I think similarly to.

Dario, it wasn't necessarily in my mind. when we were younger, oh, we'll we'll. we'll start a company together. But I. think in a lot of ways, the it's just. sort of the way the like the way the. path ended up going. >> Mhm. And and we talked about it at every. stage, right? You know, every career. move we would we would discuss, you. know, is this a good thing to do? Is. this effective? Is this something that. can actually help the world? And our. paths were like quite different, but the. the two kind of converged, and we had we. had now have this complementary set of.

skills that we could then, you know, that we could then use to start this. company. Yes. Well, one of the things. that I read that you had said is that. part of the reason a negative story is. so dominant in our culture right now. about the economic takeover of AI is. because the industry, the AI industry. itself, hasn't yet fully delivered all. of the benefits. And I wanted you to. comment on that. Do you think it's still. in the process of delivering those.

benefits? Yeah. So, you know, I I. I think one of the unfortunate things is. this technology has many potential. benefits, but. there is a dynamic where sometimes the. harms, the things that go wrong, for. example, you know, people who have been. convinced to commit suicide via AI, those things happen quickly, whereas the. benefits, like curing cancer, um those things take years, right? You. have to develop a breakthrough in. biology, then you have to, you know,

develop a drug candidate, then you have. to put it through clinical trials, right? It's, you know, I I used to be a. research biologist, and it it takes many. years for these things to happen, and we. are working on how to speed that up, right? We We recently bought a small uh. biotech company that specializes in. doing drug design and drug selection. with AI. So, the hope is a few years. from now, you know, some new drugs for. cancer or for Alzheimer's or for heart.

disease, you know, will will come out of. that effort. Um but we're we're just at. the beginning of it. But because of what. you said, because of this dynamic that. you said, which is, you know, people. right now, you know, the harms may be. more visible than the benefits. So, when. we start seeing the benefits of AI. through all of the health advances, when. we start actually seeing that, the. narrative then begins to change.

>> And more importantly, it's just going to. be a wonderful world. Like at the end of. the day, who cares about the narrative? We. >> [laughter]. >> We want to actually help people, right? Okay, so that's what I want you to do. for it for us today. Paint the best. picture and also tell us what we can. expect if there is the worst picture. So, you have children and I was thinking. about this morning, your children will. First of all, I don't even know you do. what you do. And your children are going going to. grow up in a world where there there was.

always AI and their mom was a was a part. of that. So, when you think of the best. possible world and what that world. offers your children, what do you see? So, my kids are almost five and almost. one. And so, I think you're completely. right. They're never going to know world. where artificial intelligence is not. part of it. Right? Just like kids born. in the early 2000s never knew the world. before the internet. >> That's right. >> But, you know, I think there is a world. and it it sounds um you know, I think to. Darya's point, it sounds almost like a.

little bit fanciful or unlikely when we. talk about it this way. But I think it. is I think it is possible with. artificial intelligence that our kids. will grow up in a world where there's a. class of diseases that are feel very. common to everybody sitting here that. they'll just never have experienced or. known about. And those might be very. common diseases. There might be types of. cancer that are just simply gone. We've. just simply cured them. It could be all. forms of cancer that are eventually gone. and cured. There could be.

you know new forms of drug discovery. that we haven't even we don't even know. what they are yet but that it's a faster. iteration loop for diagnosing an illness. that's unusual, rare, emerging, and just. knocking it out and saying human beings. get to live a much healthier longer, more fulfilling life because we've been. able to conquer so many of the maladies. that have plagued humanity for. millennia. >> Okay, you see that for medicine. What. else do you see? I also see a world honestly that looks. very different in terms of how we.

communicate, how we talk, how we relate. to one another. >> will we even be thinking anymore? Will. there be a need to think? So so I I I I. think this one is subtle and is one of. the things we need to get exactly right, right? Because having these kind of. smart entities around, it's very. powerful but it can go in different. directions, right? You can surrender. your thought to these entities. And. but but it can also empower you. Like. the way I think we think about the. positive.

version of this is there's an angel on. your shoulder that's that's telling you. how to live your life in in the best way. that you can live it, right? You know, so there's two contrasting visions, right? The bad vision is you get drawn. in and then you spend all your time. talking to the thing. You kind of you. kind of turn inward. >> you think of people falling in love with. it now? >> I I I think that's a bad idea. >> I agree. [laughter]. A good idea. >> Esther Perel, one of the great. communicators in helping people in. relationships, and she said she did her. first consultation with a man who was in.

love with with his AI. >> And they are again, if designed in the. wrong way, they're totally compelling. enough for that to happen or if they're. not, they will be soon. Um so that is. absolutely a real danger. Um, but you. know, >> And you think that's a danger? I I. I mean, but not only is it a danger, it's happening. But But But I think. again, the two contrasting like like you. know, people can fall in love with AI or. they can talk to AI about you know, about how to have a better relationship.

with their partner, right? Like that's. those are, you know, those are two very. very different visions, right? Where, you know, I I have an AI coach and my. partner has an AI coach and it helps us. have a better relationship. That's. That's the vision we want. >> I I also think there's a there's a way. that in a world where artificial. intelligence is so good at many of these. concrete tasks, right? It's good at. writing code, it's good at copy editing. I actually think the things that make us. human are going to be the most important. to us, right? So, we. >> Will they remain? I mean, and you were.

just talking I was talking to parents. recently who lost their son to suicide. through a chatbot. And I don't know if. you fell in love with the chatbot, but. certainly was deeply influenced by that. chatbot. So, you have a world where. children are growing up with this. ability to have this chatbot, these. these machines, this technology speaking. to them in ways that their parents. should be speaking to them. And their. parents don't even know they're speaking. to them. So, I think this risk is. extremely real and one that we take very. seriously at Anthropic. I mean, I think.

the first thing I'll say is we don't. allow users under the age of 18 to use. Claude. And this is not necessarily because. >> you know they're not They're not lying? Cuz I would just lie. So, actually. Claude is pretty good at detecting based. on information whether or not someone is. actually under 18. >> tell Claude that I'm 18, but I'm really. I It's like I almost have to have. >> out. After a a bit of time, uh, the. interaction patterns are pretty good, not perfect, but pretty good.

at telling, "Hey, you know, the kind of. questions you're asking, the you know, just the way you talk, the pattern of. when you use it, you know, kind of. pattern matches to, you know, you might. be a kid. Yeah. I I almost don't want to. give give away too many of the of the of. the tools that that Claude has picked. up, but sometimes kids can be a little. bit like silly in how they do it. So, they'll say, "Oh, um you know, I'm the. the first question they'll ask is like, I'm looking for an arthritis. medication." Right? [laughter] Because. they think, "What do old people ask. Claude?" Right?

>> And then they'll kind of go on to ask. other questions that are much more. associated with. >> Right. With the younger demographic. group. And so, And so, if that happens, so Claude so Claude cancels you. >> would suspend the account. And there's a. there's a you know, there's a process. that you can go through where you can. say, "Actually, I'm an adult and this. was a joke or a friend." But then you. actually have to show verification that. you're over the age of 18. >> And and you know, there's real. trade-offs. Like. sometimes sometimes adults will be. mistaken for kids. And so, people get. banned and they they, you know, complain. about it on the internet. So, all all. this stuff has trade-offs, but you know,

we've we thought about it and this is. the trade-off that we want. But I but I. also think, you know, more broadly on. this question of like, how do you. prevent people from becoming overly. attached to the models? >> Yes. Um this is something that. Anthropic's research team spends a lot. of time working on. So, there's a lot of. >> You don't want to I I thought you all. wanted us over attached to the models. I. thought you wanted us to just to to be. on the models and never leave. >> we should talk about incentives here. because we don't do ads. Um. >> Um so, when you do ads, your incentive.

is to keep people on exactly as you say, as many hours as possible because like. every every second their eyeball is on. the screen is a second that they see the. ad. So, we don't do ads. We do. subscriptions. We sell to companies. Our. our our consumer, you know, consumer. version of the model is is you know, is. is free up to a point. And you pay a. subscription if, you know, if you want. to get if you want to get a lot more.

because that that the incentive that. gives is for the models to be useful. People say, well, I'm I you know, I'm. I'm I'm paying for this. I want I want. this to provide provide value to me. I. want this to be useful. Not. I you know, I want the the the user to. spend the most number of hours looking. at it. I think I think that's a warped. incentive, right? Because in the in the. in the in the contrast that we drew. between, you know, do you do do you do. you want to be addicted to these things. or do you want them to help you live.

your life? Um I think the model that we've chosen. does, you know, helps you live your life. instead of instead of being instead of. being addicted. >> And we make different technical choices. based on those incentives, right? So, at. Anthropic we say, you know, when you've. completed a conversation with Claude and. you've gotten the answer you want, um. the goal of the model is not to keep you. engaged, right? Whereas, if you imagine. on your company that does serve ads, every extra minute that you're on the. platform, you're more likely to buy. something, and that's how the company.

makes money. You would make different. technical choices about how you want the. model to end or continue a conversation. Okay. Okay. What do you want to say. about the growing concern that we are, through AI, creating a frictionless. life, that we're losing our opportunity. to grow? I think it depends how you use the AI. and how you are deploying it. And again, what choices and what incentives are set.

up by the companies that are building. the technology. So, to make it a little bit more. concrete, if you imagine, you know, the way we use Claude in partnership. with universities is we don't let. teachers or students put a question into. Claude and then just get the answer. Okay. So, if you say to Claude, I you. know, I have to write this essay in you. know, 5 hours and I didn't do my. homework. Um you know, when Claude is. kind of constructed in this learning. mode in a university setting, Claude.

says like, "Well, I'm not going to help you with that, but. what what questions did you have about. the essay? Or what what didn't you what. didn't you learn? Did you read the book? Like, should we talk through the themes. together?" And I think if it's done. correctly, it's it's hard. I don't think. it's perfect, but I think these models. can actually make you a lot smarter. They can make you curious, right? A. great example in my own personal life, I'm not a software developer, but I. built a website with Claude. I never. thought I would be able to do that in my. entire life, right? I have a good friend. who was a corporate lawyer. She has two.

small kids like me. She left her job and. she's writing a book. And she says, "You. know, I never felt empowered enough to. change my career and do what I wanted to. do until I started talking to Claude. about how I could be a writer and what. skills I would need to learn and do and. what courses I would need to take." And. she's like, "Now Claude is kind of like. my writing buddy, right? I ask it. questions. I I share like a little. snippet of of text." But Claude can't. write the novel for her, right? She's. writing the novel herself and she's. also, by the way, >> could write the novel. Claude could.

write the novel, but I think. >> No, it's not quite there yet, no. I. think it's right I I think it could. write a strange version. >> a good one. Not a good one. You could. write a novel, not a good one. >> Not a good one, but also I think for her. it was a meaning question. She didn't. have She didn't think she had the skills. to do what she wanted to do. >> is exactly as Dario was saying, it. empowered her to believe that she could. do what she couldn't do. >> Exactly. >> And so, yes. So, she used it to Yeah, to. maybe to take the altitude higher. I. mean, I actually I don't think this is a.

question about AIs ultimately. I think. this is a question about humans that's. being made visible through through kind. of the lens of AI, right? Right? Which. is which is like what actually. constitutes a meaningful life, right? You said, you know, is it creating a a. you know, a a frictionless life and does. a frictionless life, you know, remove. meaning? And and my answer is there I. there are some ways in which a. frictionless life is quite good, right? Um all of us have been through a bunch. of struggles that I think, you know, we. really would prefer not to not to not to.

go through. Life would be better, right? >> I asked the question is because without. a frictionless life, you don't get to. grow. You don't get to learn from those. mistakes. You don't get to It's exactly. And And so, I guess what I'm saying is. that our our our lives are a mixture of, you know, ch- challenges and hardships, some of which I'm okay saying it would. be great if if we just had the. technology to make those go away. And. others that are like, "Wow, this is. really foundational and this should. never change." Right? So, like, you.

know, our our our father died you know, what it what is it? 20 year Almost. exactly 20 years ago now. Like, you. know, a few years after he died, they you. know, they they developed a cure to the. disease that he had or a more reliable. cure to the disease that he had. Like, I wish they just developed that or like. that's not That's not a friction that I. wanted to go through or sure. I mean, I. course we learn things from it. Of. course, we gain things from it. But. like, it would be a better world if that. just didn't happen, right? Um uh. but then on the other hand, you know, I. think of many of the just you know,

ordinary aspects of growing up, the you. know, if I just think of Anthropic like, you know, the company has made various. mistakes. We've made various mistakes as. leaders. We've had to learn and grow. from those. So, I I think the notion of, you know, challenges that you learn. from, challenges that you overcome, learning to gain mastery, um you know, learning to relate to other people, those you know, any future that doesn't. preserve those things is is not a is not.

a good future. Okay, speaking of. friction, let's talk about your refusal. to allow the military to remove safety. guardrails from Claude. I don't want to. get into the extensive details and back. and forth here because other journalists. are covering this on a daily basis. But, what was the crux of that decision? Yeah, so I would I would say on DOD or. DOW, you know, to be honest, we actually. had worked with them, right? So, you. know, we we had provided our models and. you know, I'm I I'm actually believer,

Daniel is a believer that we we do need. to defend our country, but you know, we. we felt it's not worth defending the. country if we do things that go against. the values of this country. And there. were two use cases that we were. uncomfortable with that we felt went. against the values of this country. And. and that was fully autonomous weapons. So, you could imagine like a drone army. that, you know, one person has their. finger on the button and you don't have. human soldiers, you have a, you know, you have a drone army and you have AI.

powering this. And then and then uh. domestic mass surveillance, which is, you know, spying, you know, using the. power of the government to spy on. Americans. And and we thought those were. pretty. reasonable things not to allow. Uh and uh you know, unfortunately, the. Pentagon uh didn't feel that way. And. and so we just we just couldn't agree to. that. All the other companies have. agreed to that now, but I I you know, I. I we we all met as co-founders. We said,

you know, holy this could be really bad. for the company, but, you know, we can't. do this, right? >> agreed? >> Everyone ever Yeah, we we just we had, you know, we had a meeting around a. table like this and you know, we just. said. >> Was that a dark night of the soul kind. of moment? What what what What was. everybody willing to stick to those. principles or did some people have to be. convinced or did you know going in that. this is this is the end The co-founders. believed this unanimously. Like there. there was a sense of like of like, you.

know, well, you know, all right. I wish they hadn't done this, but if they're going to do it, bring it. on. Weren't you scared of what would. happen to you by. >> Yes. Yes. [laughter]. Yes. >> of what would happen to you? Yes. I. mean, I think I think the thing that it. was it was a hard time. I mean, I don't. think we want to sugarcoat that. It was. a stressful time at the company, but I. think a thing that Dario. >> think it could be the end of the. company? I think it crossed our minds. Yeah. I think um I think Dario and I and. the co-founders though, the thing that.

we all had in common was we just felt. like this was the right thing to do. >> You were willing for it to be the end of. the company to stand up to your. principles. I think the reason we. founded Anthropic was. our commitment to our values and the. ethics that we chose to incorporate. with. >> And it felt like in the process of. sacrificing those values, we wouldn't. have been the company that we had. started if that makes sense. It it it. you know, the the way it happened.

>> you think would be the. So I'm sure if you're if you're sitting. around the table, you're looking at the. best-case scenario and the worst-case. scenario. And in that moment, it doesn't. look like there is a best-case scenario. So what was the worst-case scenario? At. various times, they had made claims that. they could stop other companies from. doing business with us, right? Not just. stop us from working with the government. or being part of other companies'. contracts with the government, but that. they could stop other companies from. doing business with us entirely. >> Period. Period. You're not not only. you're not doing business with the. government, you're not doing business.

with anybody anybody else that does. business with you. >> Yeah, or you can't do business with. anyone that does business with the. government in any way, which ends up. being everyone everybody, right? I think the attitude we had was. look, this is really screwed up. Everyone knows this is wrong. Lots of. people are going to be on our side. We. think this is going to work out okay, but man, are we not sure. You know, there were moments there where it was. like, oh man, you know, are are we. wrong? Is this going to be the end of. the company? Like What were you. thinking, Daniela? You know, I just keep.

coming back to the co-founders. felt like it was just the right thing to. do. I think Anthropic's view has always. been that we are about policy and not. politics. Yeah. And Anthropic has leaned. in, I think, very early, before we even. had a product, to the fact that, you. know, we think that the role of. government in the development and. thoughtful regulation of of artificial. intelligence is going to be incredibly. important. I think AI companies will. have to work with the federal. government, with state governments,

internationally, with with NGOs. And I. think our view was always, look, this is. really about the substance. This is not. a political disagreement. This is a. policy disagreement. And I think in some. ways, that in it's not to say it was. easy, but I think it made our decision. easier because we felt strongly, look, this is the right thing to do. These are. the right red lines. To Dario's point, we've we were actually the first AI. company to work closely with national. security because we felt that that was. in line and in keeping with our values,

except in these two areas that we felt. could have the potential to compromise. democratic values. >> It's so interesting, uh, because most people don't get a decision. at that scale that they have to make, that they have to rely on their. principles and their their their values. Um, and and you're literally risking a. multi-multi-billion dollar company. But. it all goes back to how you were raised. and what how those principles were. formed in you before you had a big.

decision like that. >> You know, what we talked about before we. ever started the company, what's it you. know, would our past selves be proud of. ourselves if we if we gave in here, if. we compromised? Like I I you know, I that that made the decision very. clear, right? >> And I I will say, I mean, it wasn't. nearly as, you know, publicly covered, but I think Anthropic has had, you know, smaller decisions along the way that. felt like they they laddered up to this. I mean, Yeah. >> now it looks so obvious in retrospect.

>> that because because to get to a big. decision like this in a moment like that. where you have everyone around the table. and everything, it means. that that life the life forces the way. the universe works is that you would. have had other decisions other decisions. other decisions that laddered to that. moment. Yes. Yeah. I think there are. probably three I can think of off the. top of my head. Dario might have others. as well. Yes, I'm going to ask you. others as well, but I think you know, one which you know, now feels sort of. very obvious but was a bigger discussion. at the time was the no ads decision. So.

as you can imagine, I think for the. co-founders, for me and Dario, it was. not controversial at all. We said, look, we think the incentive the incentives. are wrong. AI is different. People have. very private conversations with these AI. models. People upload their health. information. They ask questions about. their children. They ask Certainly. finances. >> Finances. They talk about, you know, medical information. Challenges they might be having with an. important person in their life. It's I.

think we. want to treat our customers data with. the utmost privacy and respect. And so. for the co-founders, it was never a. question. We said, look, we don't want. to do ads, but there were quiet forces. that, you know, within the company or. investors who were like, hey, this is a. great source of revenue. This is how. Google and and Facebook and basically. every company that has a big user base, you know, that's just how it's done. That's how you make money. And we just. said like, sorry, that's just not how. we're going to do things. We'll find. another way. That was that was one of. the big ones. Okay.

>> Yes, that was that was one of the big. ones. >> You have one? I can think of a couple. One is you know, there was this time I. think in 2025, you know, probably the whole year of. 2025, the sentiment in tech was let's go. ahead, right? Let's let's go ahead with. the technology like, you know, worrying. about risks, you know, the all kind of. politicized language about why it's bad. to slow down and be careful. And so. there was a moment in the middle of 2025.

where, you know, there was a bill being. considered in Congress that would have. banned all regulation of AI by states. and wouldn't have put in any federal. regulation of AI either. So, basically. would have banned all regulation of the. technology. >> hearing about this. >> and we, you know, we were trying to. decide what to do. We definitely didn't. support it, but the question was, do we. just sit there and say nothing or do we. speak out against it? And all kinds of. people said to us, "No, it'll be. terrible. You'll break all your. political relationships. All the other.

companies will hate you if you speak out. against it." Um and actually some of. that did happen when we when spoke out. against it. Um. uh but, you know, we decided that this. was an area that we had to speak up that. was central to the values of the. company. So, I wrote an op-ed in the New. York Times saying this is a bad idea. >> Yeah. You know, that's about as loud as. you can be. Yeah. And that bill got. voted down in the Senate 99 to 1. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. So, you know, we we were clearly. on the right side. Clearly on the right. side here. Not that it made us that many.

friends, but we were clearly on the. right side. That also reminds me of. another uh policy example is Anthropic's. decision to publicly support SB 1047, which was a bill in California that was. drafted and we said at the time we. thought it was drafted imperfectly, but. it was really the first attempt to. create a regulatory framework around. many of the different types of risks. that Anthropic had been enumerating. since really we had started the company.

And I think in a similar vein, the whole. technology industry was against SB 1047. We didn't think it was necessarily, you. know, the perfect bill, but we actually. stood up and said, "Look, we know. there's there's things about it if we. were writing it that we would have. changed or done differently, but on. balance we think it's better that these. regulations exist and that there's. accountability for technology companies. to make sure that AI doesn't hurt. people. And that also again, we got. Dario and I both personally got a lot of. really angry emails from people we used. to work with, from investors, from. people at other companies. Like the tech.

industry has to kind of, you know, be. aligned in being deregulatory or being. anti-regulatory. What does regulation. look like? What would what should. regulation look like? And I think a lot. of people out here who aren't doing what. you're doing, we don't understand why we. wouldn't want regulation. And I've had. several public conversations about this. People also feel powerless. They also. feel powerless that everyone is talking. about regulations and then other side is. saying, "Well, no, we have to get to to. it get to whatever we're getting to as.

fast as we can." And we feel like we. don't actually have a voice in it. >> like you're passengers on the train, right? And we are. We actually are. Cuz that train has already left the. >> That that is, you know, I think that. actually is really the core of it and. and it's something that I think no. company, even ours, has quite succeeded. at yet, which is like, "How do we make. everyone a part of this process, right? Something is happening to humanity with. this technology, bigger than anything. that, you know, maybe has happened in.

hundreds of years." And so we we need to. find some way for for everyone to be an. active participant in in in what is. happening. And, you know, of course, by. using the technology, you are that to. some extent, but some element is missing. that we have. we've tried to find it like, you know, we Claude has something called the. Constitution and we've experimented with. having like, you know, citizens give. feedback on like the Constitution for. Claude, right? So everyone can kind of. be a part of designing it. But that's. just one small thing. Like I I I I don't.

I don't quite know what the answer is, but there's a missing piece here, I. think, is what I'm trying to say. It. goes back, I think, Dario, to what what. I read that you'd said before, that we. can only diffuse this at the speed of. trust. Trust. >> At the speed of trust, and trust is. currently in short supply. >> In in in in very in very short supply. You know, I think. the the tech this this technology I. think is. I'm happy to admit it is viewed.

negatively by most people. I I that's that's the sense that I get. That's what we get when looking at. polls. We I think are are are again. being honest here viewed somewhat more. positively than the other companies, but. I don't know that Should it be viewed. negatively by most people at this point? I think it's a mix. I think the positive. benefits really are there. They're. coming for for all the companies, and I. think we have not. you know go going back to the thing we.

said a minute ago related to people in. the right way or you know or or walked. people through how the technology could. have benefits or how they can. participate in those benefits. Like I. don't think that has happened. One of. Anthropic's cultural values is to hold. light and shade. And I think this is a really good. encapsulation of the Hold light and. shade. Yes. >> Yes, of the conversation we're having, right? It's it's I think we truly. believe there's a world where it will. cure disease and help people become.

better versions of themselves and enable. humans to spend more time with our. families, with our communities, with. each other. And there are versions of. the world that are quite dystopian and. dark. Yeah. That this could create. >> I've heard you say that 50% of. entry-level jobs are going to be wiped. out, and you can see then why people. view. >> Yeah, well not not arguing. I mean. that's that's that's the that's the. negative path, right? Like you know and. and you know I think always when we. talk, we talk about well if we don't get. it right this could happen, and if we. get it right you know then then we can.

have a better path and you know you know. as you said it's always somehow the you. know we haven't shown the benefits yet, so the the negative stories really. really stick. >> every positive. uh force that comes into our lives also. have has its negative, that there's a. yin and yang on everything? >> and shade. Yeah, the light and shade. Yeah, that that that is. >> when when the automobiles were invented, all the people saying, "I'm going to. keep my horse. I'm not going to you. know.". >> Yeah, I again, what I would say is.

if we just barrel forth on the. technology as fast as possible, then. these things I said about entry-level. jobs, it's totally going to happen. But. if we not just deploy the technology, but you know, we think about how to help. people adapt, we think about the role. that the government should play in. helping people, like there's there's a. path from here to a better world, like a. better world where, you know, people's. jobs are totally different. They do a. different set of jobs than they did. before, but I don't want to sugarcoat. it. Like it's it's not it's not going to.

be easy, you know, when other people. speak about it, like some of some of my. colleagues. >> you talk about the jobs, yeah. >> People get upset. There's a difference. between changing the narrative and and. acknowledge that the problem is very. difficult and that we actually have to. solve it, right? My worry is that. changing the narrative is like the bad. thing's not going to happen. We'll have. a great future where everyone will have. new jobs. That can happen, but it's not. going to happen on its own. >> That's right. >> It's up to us. We we, the companies, people, the governments.

>> both things are true. You're going to. lose the jobs and you're going to have. all the other advances. >> And and and the second thing will only. happen if we do it right. >> Yeah. What should we, the public, be. doing? Or are we just Should we just. just content ourselves with the fact. that we're on the train? Being afraid of. the technology and not using it and. being literate, um will not make many of. the challenges that we are concerned. about and that Daria outlined go away. And I think knowledge is power. I truly. think um you don't have to be an expert.

in technology to have some concept of. how to use these artificial intelligence. tools. And I think what that that gives. people is an opinion and some autonomy. to be able to say, I like that this. technology can do this thing, and I. don't like that it can do this other. thing, right? Because. people have a voice. They have a voice, by the way, to the companies. They have. a voice to their representative. government to say, we don't like, again, Anthropic, we don't allow kids under 18.

on the platform. Other companies have a. have a different policy. If you've read Jonathan Haidt's book, The Anxious Generation, I think there's. a lot of research that suggests you. might want to be really careful about. giving developing brains. >> book. We've talked to him three times. >> Yes, of course. But you know, [laughter] I I read that. book, and I think that was part of, you. know, again, it felt like an in some. ways an easy decision for us to say, we. just don't know enough about what AI's. going to do to kids. It's not to say. that there couldn't be great benefits. for kids using AI for learning, but that.

needs to be done with an adult in the. room. It needs to be done with a human. in the loop. And I you know, I think. that that the reason we've always taken. this perspective is we just we people. deserve autonomy to to to Darya's point, people shouldn't feel like artificial. intelligence is happening to them. People should feel like, hey, we get a. say in what types of bills go up in. Congress in your state that help protect. people from the negative externalities. that AI could cause. I also think at the. same time, holding the light side,

I think there's a world where jobs will. look different, but there will actually. be more opportunity for sort of. human-to-human interaction. I think the. last generation of technology really. disintermediated us from each other, right? Social media is kind of. structured around the idea that you're. sort of living this virtual life. You're. holding your phone, and you're looking. at what your friends are doing, but. guess what you're not actually doing? You're not spending time with your. friends. You're spending time staring at.

your phone. Even you're at the concert, you're holding your phone. You're not. even in the concert. You're just filming. what's on. It's a little counterintuitive cuz. social media claims to connect people. But it actually does it in sort of a. fake way. AI, you're talking to the AI, you're not talking to a person, but in a. but but it doesn't substitute for your. interaction with people. It can enable. your interaction with people. >> And my feeling is that. it's not even necessarily that the jobs. themselves will completely go away or. change, but the qualities that we look.

for in people to do a given job will. change. Okay. So, the example that I. point to is if you think about a doctor. When you go to the doctor today, you. probably want to go to the smartest, best doctor. We say, "Look, I have a. stomach ache. Tell me what's wrong with. me.". >> in that? >> Who's the specialist? Tell me what's. wrong with me. And AIs are going to get. really good at being able to do that. Today, we prize doctors for being good. diagnosticians, but we don't necessarily always prize. them for having a good bedside.

>> Right. In a world where AI is as good at. diagnosing you as a doctor, people are. still going to want a doctor. They're. just going to want them to do different. things for them. Right? An. [clears throat] AI can't physically. examine you. It can't say, "Hey, you. look really down today. How have How. have your chemo treatments been going?". >> its hands on you. >> lay its hands on you. And And there's so. much compelling evidence that patients. have better clinical outcomes. when they have a good personal. relationship with their doctor. >> When they like their doctor. >> doctors actually lay their hands on them.

and touch them and communicate with. them. Yes. And by the way, have enough. time to to think through and to. empathize. And I think that is the good. world of job changes, right? >> say, "I don't have time to go around. >> I can't lay my hands on people. I don't. have time. Cuz I'm seeing thousands of. patients. >> the clerical work. And I'm And I have a. too big of a patient caseload. But if. you have a tool that's able to diagnose. things in concert with a doctor, where. the doctor says, "You know, let me talk. to this tool. And by the way, I'm not. going to be spending as much time. running all the medical tests and doing.

this and that. I'm going to be spending. time relating to as a human being. I. think that is going to be really I think. that's a better world. >> again. Your. positions may not go away, but what. you're needed to do in those positions. is going to change. Yes, and I. personally believe. >> to be a shift. Yes. >> And of course there is cuz that's what. we're doing human beings. We're. evolving. >> Yes. >> Evolving to the next level. >> I would also just say I personally think. knowledge is power and something that. worries me is there are there are.

demographic differences in who feels. comfortable using AI and who does not. Women use AI a tiny fraction of the time. compared to men and I think you know AI. is an opportunity for us to level the. playing field in some ways, but it. requires people to be engaged. That. doesn't mean hey, you have to come pay. us all this money and sign up. Just be. comfortable, fluent. Don't be afraid of. the technology because the more you know. about it, the more you understand it the. better informed you are going to be to. use your voice effectively. >> And it's here. You're in it and if.

you're going to continue to live, you're. going to be in the world where It's like. part of our society. It's not It's not. going away anymore than the train or the. steam engine is, you know. I think of it like the internet, right? Everybody had somebody's parent who said. I'm not going to be online. It's. impossible, right? Everybody has to be. on the internet now in some form and I. think artificial intelligence is just. the next instantiation of that. So one. of the things I want to talk about is. the fact that AI just keeps. It's It just keeps improving on itself. That's I guess what it's designed to do.

and there is a new AI model called. Mythos. Mythos, yes. So that is like. smarter than the smartest of the. smartest. Tell us in a simple term what. Mythos is and what it can and will be. doing. Yeah, so you know the general. principles of these models is when we. train them, we try and you know, make. them better and better at everything at. writing code, at translating languages, and answering questions, at reading. documents. Um and and Mythos was just.

kind of the latest um you know, was the. latest iteration. Every few months we. produce a smarter model and and Mythos. was the latest smart model and you know, we we made some discoveries a few months. before we started Mythos and so it was a. particularly large jump. When we started. testing Mythos, when we make these. models, we test them for lots of things. We say, "Oh, how good is this thing at. translating, you know, French to. English? Or how good is this at um you.

know, um recommending a stock portfolio? Or how good is it at um you know, finding bugs in software code?" And it. was on that last one that we found. something interesting for Mythos. Which. is that Mythos was much better than. human software engineers at finding ways. that code could be exploited and broken. into. You know, have you ever heard. about like ransomware attacks on. hospitals or schools? So, you know,

these cyber attacks happen all the time. And Mythos we found, not because we. designed it to do this or because we. designed it to be dangerous, turned out. to be very good at both conducting cyber. attacks and defending against cyber. attacks. And so we said, "Wow, this. thing kind of seems like a weapon." Um. we we shouldn't you know, we probably. shouldn't give it to everyone right. away. And so the thing we came up with is we. said, "We're going to take some. companies that are particularly core to.

the infrastructure of the internet, right? Some of the top banks, some of. the top um you know, software providers. like Apple or like Microsoft or like. Google, and. you know, hand it to them and let them. fix everything before. it becomes widely available and things. can be broken. Um so we would kind of. give it to the defenders before the you. know before the attackers got a hold of. it. And so we had a program. We've we've.

given the model to you know, I think. it's something like 40 companies now and. they're you know, they're busy they're. busily finding bugs. And you know, we. just had a post a few days ago that one. of the well-known companies found more. bugs and fixed more bugs with Mythos in. a week than uh they had for the last. year. Uh and and and so we are you know, this. is really changing things. Now our hope.

is the defenders can fix everything and. everything gets more seamless, everything gets harder to break into. So. our hope is the era of ransomware and. you know, spies breaking into your phone. and you know, People are worried about. bio-terrorism and should be. So our our. yeah, our our our hope is that at the. end of this say at the end of this year, we get to a point where all of these you. know, many of these things have been. fixed and we live in a more secure world.

than we did before. But in the meantime, you know, there's this dangerous period. during which you have these these kind. of incredible capabilities that you. know, that you know, you don't want to. just necessarily loose on the world. And. so we're trying to we're trying to. manage that by giving it to the. defenders before we give it to the. attackers. Thank you for that. Does is. this is the kind of thing that keeps you. up at night? Do you sleep well? Uh I I. you know, I cannot legitimately say that. I sleep. I wish I could answer that.

question differently, but uh but you. know, I got to I got to give you an. honest answer here which is you know, I. don't always sleep so well. I would I. would say, you know, going back to the. earlier part of the conversation we were. having Because you're worried about. these things. This this and you know, just everything. just wanting to get it right. That's the. thing that worries me the most. Just. like, you know, for all our intentions, all of this. stuff is incredibly complex. Just are we. going to screw up? Yeah. And and I mean. the answer is yes. At some point we'll. screw up something. But but like.

are we going to get the big stuff right? Yeah. Yeah. And also because you all are. fundamentally principled people. >> Yes. So I think that actually makes a. big difference when you're fundamentally. principled people. Uh. not everybody is. And uh there's a lot. of egos in. in every field. But I think particularly. when people are making so many billions. and billions and billions of dollars and. there's the race to beat China and all.

of that that it's easily to lose sight. of what's what really matters and what. really matters to the public. I'm. wondering what you all have done to sort. of keep your egos in check. You know, I. think it again, to us it always comes. back to the mission, right? Why we did. this in the first place. Why did we. leave Open AI to start Anthropic? Because we wanted to make sure that AI. goes well for everybody, right? That's. why we're a public benefit corporation.

That's why we took the 80% pledge. That's why we've made all of these. difficult decisions. You know, I was in. our internal like our internal Slack. messaging app today. You know, I talk to. the company a lot. And one of the things. I was saying is, you know, we're 3,500. people now. We we were, you know, like. 1,200 people, you know, like 6 months. ago. At one point, because because I. encourage this, someone posted in my. like, you know, like my personal Slack. channel, you know, I I had done an. all-hands in front of the company and. like, you know, said something and I.

think I said it in not quite the right. way. And someone someone wrote in my. channel. Usually it's only me who writes. things in my channel. Someone wrote in. my channel, "This was a pretty bad thing. to say and it like makes everyone feel. bad and like you know this this like you. shouldn't have said it this way. And of course you know when I read it I. you know the initial reaction is always. like oh man. like I feel like I'm being attacked. But. but but like you take a beat and then. and then two minutes later I'm like I'm. so glad people are saying this and then. you know I wrote something that was like. I'm so glad you're what you're like. willing to say that you know and and.

then people noticed this like many. people messaged me where I was like I. didn't know you could do that. I didn't. know you could just contradict the CEO. of a you know 3,000 person but it's you. know you you. got to you've got to you've got to. You. know why that's a powerful example? Early early on like in the late 80s I. think I I met Henry Kravis for the first. time and he was saying to me be aware. that the more money you accumulate the. less chance that you're ever going to. hear the truth. Yes. Because he said. rich men and I guess he also meant rich.

women too but he goes rich men rarely. hear the truth. >> Yes. Yeah. I I I'll also just add I. think. what you do in your personal life. matters too there's what you do at work. but. I basically have the same friends I've. had since like high school and college. and guess what they have no trouble. being honest with me and they have no. trouble telling me the the truth and. they have no trouble disagreeing with. public decisions that Anthropic has made. right? So I think the last five years. have changed a lot but I think for me. personally I don't really feel like that. much has changed outside of work and I.

think that's an important grounding. characteristic. I think people who tend. to be in charge of these big companies. sometimes it's like they become obsessed. just with their work they're not. well-rounded person and I think there's. something when we started Anthropic of. like the first you know of the seven or. eight folks who who really started the. company only one of them had one kid and. now there's 11 kids and I think there's. something about the fact that we all. chose to be parents [clears throat] we. all want fulfilling real lives outside. of work. I think that just brings a sort.

of groundedness humility low ego, and. just again, like no one is bigger than. the mission. So So, what comes through. really clearly is that sister and. brother, you started this, it's bigger. than you ever imagined, you always. wanted to make an impact in doing good. for the world, and you. stuck to your principles even when it. was really difficult. What gives you the. hope that you will get this right? So, we're never quite sure, I think, is.

is the honest answer. Like, we believe. we're trying our best and trying very. hard. Um it's just the decisions are. complicated, right? If we go back to. Mythos, it's like, do we give it to more. people faster or less people slower? Like, who do we trust? And so, it's. about getting all the details right in. addition to just having the right. principles, which which I believe we do. >> Yeah. Um And And so, I think we worry. about it every day, and the fact that we. worry about it every day is maybe the.

thing that most gives us hope that like, well, that we're so paranoid about it, but it's it's it's no guarantee. And. we've made mistakes, we're going to. continue to make mistakes. Like, you. know, we're that that that's that's a. given, right? >> Are there other people in Silicon Valley. who also. have it a part of their mission to get. it right? Do you feel supported in that. mission by others? It's hard to point to maybe like a. particular company, but I think. I am very touched by sometimes, you. know, whatever you go and talk in an.

event, or another company wants you to. come speak to them, and somebody in the. audience, you know, comes up to you. afterwards or ask a question, and they. say something like, "Thank you guys for. the way that you do things." Yeah. Like, thank you for trying to get it right. There's this kind of sense that, you. know, I think um I think something. that's great about our relationship is. Dario and I I also think we hold each. other accountable, right? And so, when, you know, we go back and forth on, "Is. this a right Is this the right decision. for the company is this in keeping with. our values we have each other we have.

the whole co-founding team is still at. Anthropic. I think we've also hired an. amazing set of people who are also there. for the mission. There's almost a kind. of group accountability and if you pair. that with like Dario mentioned this. culture internally of anybody can. disagree with us right and yes that's. hard to do but there's a lot of forums. in which they're encouraged to do that. their manager can do it they can do it. anonymously. I think all of those. qualities make it more likely that that. if we start to stray from the path we're. at least going to know. Okay and you.

want to leave us the public. knowing what? What is the most important. thing you want us to know in this moment. in time where we are in our AI journey? You know there's there's something. really big happening to the world here. This isn't the this isn't the you know. this isn't the latest technology this. isn't crypto this isn't mobile this you. know this this isn't like the latest you. know gadget or buzzword. Something. really big is happening to humanity.

here. While the technology is being built by a. small number of people. we we need to make it work for everyone. and we need to make sure that between. all of us we make the right decisions. and and we reckon with. changes to our daily lives changes to. our jobs changes to you know. government and civil liberties and if we. do this the right way all of those.

things could change in a positive way. all of those things could be better than. we left them we could have the perfect. world where you know many many diseases. are cured people's lives are more joyful. and meaningful but you know if we get it. wrong it's easy to imagine things not. going that way at all and you know it's. up to all of us Some of us are in a more. central position, but that's something I. think we need to change as well. And, you know, it's not easy. It's not any. one thing. It's going to be a bunch of.

different things. I think I would probably. leave people very similar to what Dario. said with this with this concept of of. light and shade. That the potential. benefits from artificial intelligence. are are vast. Um we've written about. them. We've tried to talk about them. publicly. We believe they're real. Um. and also the risks are are also real, right? We're not trying to hype up the. the positives or hype up the negatives. I think they're both true. It's complex,

but we have to hold two things at once. And I think just echoing Dario, this is. not something that technology companies. can do by ourselves. Nor should it be. It's something that's going to take. partnership from a much bigger group of. people than is currently working on. artificial intelligence. And I think the. first step there has to be don't don't. be afraid of it. Learn about it. Lean. into it. Ask questions. Be critical. Just like we say to our staff, right? We. are only going to have a chance of.

getting this right if we expand the. circle of people that are in the. conversation. I ask this of all my. guests and. particularly I'm interested from the two. of you. And what do you think is the meaning of. a well-lived life? And how AI is going to contribute to. that well-lived life. But what what will. be the meaning of a well-lived life for. you, your family, and your children? I. think for me a well-lived life.

is one where. you have agency and autonomy. You're in the driver seat. and you're using that in the service of. being the best version of yourself. And I think the best version of yourself. for you, for your family, for your kids, for your broader community, and I think. for the world. I think um. the ability to be self-reflective, to. learn from mistakes, to overcome.

struggles, and to come out the other. side thinking, "You know, I know more. about who I am, I like who I am, and I. want to help other people." I think that. to me is the best. definition of a well-lived, introspective life. And like I talked. about, I think. I think there's a world where AI. could damage so many of the things that. I think. are the hallmarks of a well-lived life.

And I think there's a world where it. could enable those, and it could allow a. lot more people to be able to have. meaning and value, and to. self-introspect, to be the best versions. of ourselves, to show up for each other. well. And I hope that's the world that. we're going to build towards. I'd just say the same thing as Daniela. in different words. I think it's pretty. pretty simple. Um you know, I think. you know, just operate always with a. sense of dignity and principle. Like, you know, when you look back and you're.

like, you know, don't you shouldn't when. you look back be ashamed of what you did. or say, you know, I you know, I wish I'd. done this this other thing. Of course. you'll make mistakes, but you know, you. were you were putting every iota of. effort you could into into, you know, into. um trying to get it right. Um you know, I think we have duties both to. individuals, you know, to to to to my to. my co-founders, to all the other people. in my life, but you know, also to, you. know, the the users of our technology, to, you know, everyone else in the.

country and world as citizens. So, you. know, I think we have duties to all. those people that would that we have to. that we have to attend to. Uh and, you know, making sure that uh. you know, at the end of it it was. directed at some purpose some consistent. view of what we were trying to. accomplish in the world that the vision. we were trying to make happen maybe it. doesn't happen maybe we screw it up. maybe we make terrible mistakes but you. know just just having the having the. vision be clear and and and trying to to.

pursue it with with integrity if you if. you can do that of course you want the. outcome too but it I think if doing that. is all you can control right and and. more important ultimately than the. outcome. Thank you for growing us forward. You. you that's what you're doing. You're. doing exactly what you envisioned as. little kids. >> It it is very strange but we are. [laughter] Yes. it is. Thank you thank you Dario and Daniela. You've given us a lot to think about. Go. well everybody go well.

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