Sophie Chen Keller: "Little Wonder" | Oprah's Book Club

For the first two years of my son's. life, I was just completely consumed by. mothering in the very best ways and also. in challenging ways. I was sleeping one. or two hours at a time, and so I learned. just how much exhaustion I could carry. around. My son was an intense, sensitive. baby, so he did a lot of screaming. >> Oh, that's how you describe it, okay. It was intense and sensitive, yes. >> So, I just had the sense that my life no. longer belonged to me. I missed my old.

life and my old self. >> You're describing all young mothers, yes. >> So, I opened up my laptop, opened up a. Word doc, and I started writing this. book. >> And you did so well. Hi, everybody. It's wonderful to be here. with you on the Oprah podcast. This. year, we are celebrating the 30th. anniversary of Oprah's Book Club. Let's. just.

Uh, I'm in awe of that. All thanks to all of. you who have been reading with me for. now 30 years, and I think that that. reading is one of the the great joys of. life, and we have many more fantastic. books coming up this year. So much more. to come. But it is my pleasure to share. my 124th. Book Club selection, Little Wonder. Little Wonder by Sophie Chen Keller. The.

novel is actually a big wonder full of a. lot of astonishing drama. It's the story. of a mother and her young son who is a. piano prodigy, and they become separated. by forces beyond their control in. Beijing, China. It's an extraordinary. journey about a mother's love, really, and it's about perseverance and the. transformative power of music. Welcome.

Sophie Chin Keller to the Oprah podcast. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> to have you here. So, I have to say everyone in our. audience has read the book. I'd love to. hear from a few of you. So, Shelby, what. did you think? >> Hi Oprah, thank you so much for having. me. I'm thrilled to be here. Sophie, I. loved your book. Um I could speak. forever about how much I love overall. what you had written, but I actually. wanted to touch on a smaller detail that.

really resonated with me personally. Um I'm a tap dancer professionally, which means I'm a musician and more. specifically a percussionist. And so. I've often noticed the rhythms in the. world around me in a way that maybe. others wouldn't. And so I particularly. loved and was so intrigued by your. choice to have River noticing the. inanimate objects around him as music. notes, like a horn honking at a G flat. And that was such a nice reminder.

throughout the book as to what a musical. prodigy River was. And it was in those. small details that you wrote that I. found the book to be particularly. special. >> Yeah, you know, I've never even thought. of that because I'm not like musically. inclined at all. So, I don't know a G. flat from a C. So, uh it's interesting that that's the way. you look at the world, too. Is that the. way you hear things? >> Yeah, um well, as a tap dancer, I notice. the rhythms more so than the notes. Um. so, I might notice that we're in. triplets, like a train track is moving.

in triplets, versus hearing the notes. like like River does. Yeah. One end and. a two end and. >> really cool. That's pretty cool. >> Andrew. >> Hi Oprah. Hi Sophie. Um I loved your. book. Um the character that I resonated. with the most was obviously River. Um. I'm a child of immigrants and um like. River's mother growing up, I feel like. my mom, who was also a single mother, like she gave up so much and sacrificed. so much that so that I could grow up. with better circumstances than what she.

grew up in. In the book, River talks about how it. only takes two people to make a world. And I found it really meaningful that. despite the circumstances of the story. and despite how much time they spend. apart, the world that Song and River. share is made up of like love and. playfulness and music. So, I really love. that. >> Yeah, I love the names, too, don't you? Song and River. All right. So, let's let's get to it. You were born in China and raised in. California and Ohio.

>> Yes. >> And you grew up with your mother reading. to you, and that's what gave you a love. for writing. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah, I came to the US when I was. four, and so my first language was. Mandarin Chinese. I didn't speak any English yet. And so, to help me learn, my mom would check out. stacks of books from the library. And. every night before bed, she would spend. an hour reading out loud to me until she. lost her voice. And so, I grew up loving. these children's classics like James and. the Giant Peach and Charlotte's Web. And.

as soon as I could hold a pencil, I was. scribbling little stories of my own. If. anyone asked me what I wanted to be when. I grew up, I said, "I want to be a. writer.". And when I was 13, I. wrote a short story about a pedicab. driver in rural China. And this story was just plucked out of. the slush pile by the editors at Glimmer. Train Literary Magazine, and that became. my first publication. And. >> You were 13, did you say? >> Yeah, I was 13 when I wrote the story,

and the issue came out when I was in. high school. I remember bringing author. copies to the school. >> just so exciting when you get published. >> so excited. I was handing these issues. to my friends and teachers. Um but then when I went to college, I. thought I'd better be practical, and so. I majored in economics and after. graduating I worked for a few years in. the corporate world. And before my husband and I were. married, we were talking about our. dreams for the future. And we thought why not pursue those.

those dreams today? We'll hold hands and. close our eyes and just take this jump. together. And so we both quit our jobs. and he went back to graduate school and. I started writing what. >> was to go to graduate school. >> Well, he worked in finance originally. and he wanted to he wanted to save the. world and so he went back to graduate. school and majored in law and diplomacy. and yeah. >> And yours was to write. >> And mine was to write. It always has. been and so that was, you know, almost.

10 years ago and it all came. >> So how did you So it's one thing to. dream but you got to eat. So how did you. How did How did you plan on taking care. of yourself? >> It was really my husband enabled it all. He likes to save. He's German frugal, so. >> Okay. Okay. So Little Wonder, your. second novel and you started writing. this book I understand when you were in. for you were staying for a while in. Beijing. >> Yes. So in 2019,

we moved from New Jersey to Beijing. My. son was 4 months old at the time. >> Mhm. >> And we're moving for my husband's work. and when I got to China, this version of. China in 2019 was totally different from. the China I remembered as a child. The city was super modern and clean and. beautiful. At the same time, the air pollution was. so heavy you could see it hanging like a. thick fog. And I saw lots of very rich people. living alongside lots of very poor.

people. and regardless of their socioeconomic. status, everyone lived these. technologically advanced lives. You. know, they would just leave their homes. in the morning with only a phone in. their pocket. There was no need for a. wallet. Everything was virtually. cashless. I remember the first time I saw a beggar. collecting change not in a Styrofoam. cup, but with a QR code. And you would. scan it and just send them money. directly into their their mobile wallet. >> Is that what beggars are doing now? >> Some of them were and I was Yeah.

>> Have you all seen that? I have not. Beggars with a QR code. Okay. And you scan the QR code to give the. >> Yeah, and you'll just Yeah. It's. actually very very easy and convenient. >> Okay. All right. >> So, we settled into our new routines. there and as part of mine I would take. my son out for these long walks because. he napped in a moving stroller. >> Mhm. >> So, I would just walk around for 2 hours.

and observe everything around me. And I was struck by just the sheer. number of delivery workers that filled. the streets. And delivery workers of all. kinds. There would be package delivery. workers and they would just set up shop. in the middle of the sidewalk surrounded. by all their boxes and their bubble. wrap. And there would be grocery delivery. workers. Um there were the food delivery. workers. They normally wore bright. yellow uniforms and they would literally. sprint past me in the streets carrying.

their orders. And. I was really curious about them. I. wondered if they made their delivery on. time. And I wondered. >> Were they on bikes? >> No, on foot. They would hold their bags. on foot literally sprinting past me as I. pushed my little stroller. And. >> Wow. >> Yeah, and I wondered where they had come. from. I wondered what their stories were. and what the job was like and what their. lives were like. And so, I just followed. my wonder and that was the beginning of. who Song would be.

>> You followed your wonder. Is that why it came That's where the. title came from? >> The title actually came um at the end. after the manuscript was done. And as I was brainstorming ideas, this. phrase little wonder jumped out at me. because it just encapsulates the way we. feel when we're holding a little baby. and looking into that little face. It's. just full of awe and affection. >> So, how did the story of of of of the. mother and the son come to you?

>> Well, at the time um. I had just become a mom. >> Yeah. >> And. motherhood was all I was thinking about, you know, for the first 2 years of my. son's life, I was just completely. consumed by mothering. >> Mhm. >> in the very best ways and also in. challenging ways. I learned just how much love I could. carry around, >> Mhm. >> but to go with that, how much worry. You know, everything I was constantly. Googling various symptoms and everything.

became a potential problem that had to. be solved. And you know, I I was. sleeping 1 or 2 hours at a time. And so, I learned just how much exhaustion I. could carry around. >> Mhm. >> Um my son was an intense, sensitive. baby. So, he did a lot of screaming. >> Oh, that's how you describe it. Okay. Okay. >> And the only. >> Intense and sensitive, yes. A lot of screaming, got it. >> And the only thing that consoled him was.

um bouncing on this yoga ball. So, I. would all day and all night just hold. him on my shoulder and bounce him on. this yoga ball. And for the first year of his life, he. had a cow's milk protein allergy, which meant that I had to cut dairy and. soy out of my diet. And so, I just had the sense that my. life no longer belonged to me. And I missed my old life and my old self. where I could eat whatever I wanted. I. could use the bathroom by myself in.

peace. I could. >> You're describing all young mothers, yes. >> Yeah, and have a cup of coffee without. microwaving it five times before getting. a chance to finish it. And, you know what? As it turns out, time just keeps going on and everything. is temporary, every hard phase passes, and one day baby is just older, and then. you start incorporating elements of the. old self into the new one. >> Yeah. >> And.

for me that happened in earnest when my. son started daycare. And I went from. having no time to myself to suddenly. having this glorious stretch of hours. every morning. And so, I. opened up my laptop, opened up a Word. doc, and I started writing this book. And I got to talk about all those. motherhood-related things I had been. dying to talk about. >> And you did so well. So, how do you. write? Do you write like every day or. >> Yeah, I like structure. So, I have a.

simple routine I try to keep to. Um I have a cup of coffee in the. morning, and then I start writing. And the most important thing for me is. that I have no distraction. And so, I do. my writing from bed because this is the. place where no one is bothering me, and I'm totally relaxed and comfortable. I'm not distracted by a squeaky chair or. my back hurting or anything, and I can. just totally focus on the words on the. screen. And the other thing I need is to have a.

long stretch of time. to produce a short stretch of words. I. do about 700 words a day, and it takes. me 5 6 7 8 hours to produce that. Um I. think my brain is like a slow cooker, and it just it just slowly breaks down. the scene and lets the emotions and. elements mingle and and deepen. >> Wow. Every day though you do it. >> Monday through Friday, every day. But I.

have become less precious about my. routine now that I have two kids. Um. when the edits for Little Wonders came. in, my daughter was 4 months old. And so. I did those edits with her sleeping on. my chest and I would type one-handed on. my laptop. I was still in bed so this was the the. similar part of the routine. >> Wow. We want to really talk about what. the book the story is about without. giving away too much. So set up the. characters for us and the plot.

>> Sure. So um the book starts with a. mother, Song, and her 11-year-old son. River. And he's a piano prodigy. >> Did it take you a long time to decide. those names or did you just those names. come to you? >> They came to me um. pretty easily. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And um. they get separated in a crowded train. station in Beijing over the Chinese New. Year. And there are so many people traveling. during this period of time that it's. been called the biggest human migration.

on the planet. So the train station is. packed and they're not able to find each. other again. And so they spend, you. know, years of their lives searching for. each other while having to make new and. very different lives for themselves. >> So this is so interesting. When I was. reading the book for the first time, I had to Google Beijing Train Station. cuz I couldn't understand how you could. just lose somebody in a train station. and then you're never going to see them.

again. >> Yeah. >> It's a big train station. >> It's a big train station. Also there are. just so so many people. And. >> millions of people. >> Yeah, there are a lot of people and you. know, so much of this book hinges on. injustice and inequality and that's part. of the reason they can't find each other. because Song is who she is. >> Because she is. >> In her mind, she's a nobody and people. don't care about her.

>> I didn't understand in the beginning. Why wouldn't they just go on Facebook? >> Well, Chinese The Chinese do have social. media, but they don't have. American Western social media apps. They. don't have an a Facebook equivalent. The. way their social media works is in order. to find someone, you need to have their QR code to scan. or you need a number or at least be in. sort of the same social circles. Otherwise, you know, there are so many. people. There aren't that many names. You know, you would never find her. It's. like a needle in a haystack.

>> That's why. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, readers say that you have. this this this uncanny ability to write. from the point of view of the child, especially boys. You were able to do. that in your your first novel. What is. that do you think? >> There are periods of my life that I. remember especially vividly. and childhood is one of them. >> Really? >> Yeah, at the time I was living we were. living in Columbus, Ohio and my parents. were graduate students, so we lived in. this housing complex for graduate.

student families similar to ours. And I remember the friends I made there. and I remember playing with them all day. in the summers um until the sunset and I. remember, you know, catching fireflies. I remember how big the world seemed and. how magical these bedtime stories were. And so, it was easy for me to access um. memories of that magical time. >> Wow. >> And actually, um the first versions of.

this book um had much less of River's. perspective. It was mainly Song's. journey and Song's story. And with each. iteration of the book, River's role. grew. And that's because Song's life is. difficult and her perspective can start. feeling quite heavy. But River as a child, he approaches the. world with openness, with more wonder.

and so the world takes on this almost. magical quality. >> And is he a musical prodigy because you. liked music? >> Exactly, yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah, I drew a lot of parallels between. my own musical background and um River's. journey as a pianist. >> grew up with piano? >> So I started playing learning the piano. when I was 7 years old. My mom signed me. up for group piano lessons at the local. library. And you know, I enjoyed the lessons and. so she found a private instructor for me.

and she bought me a used piano for $500. And you know, at the time they were. teaching assistants, um my parents are. >> you a used piano, this is important. She. bought you a used piano for $500. She. was only making $900. >> Exactly, she was only making 900, my dad. as well, 900 each and um we didn't so we. didn't have the resources to spare for. things like this, but my mom did it. >> to share that cuz that's a lot if you're. only making 900, a piano costs 500.

>> sacrifice. >> and sacrifice and sacrifice for your. daughter to be able to have piano. lessons. >> Yeah, exactly, yeah. >> And I understand too that there were a. few years ago you had thyroid cancer. >> Right. >> Now you're cancer free. >> Yes. >> Happy to hear that. >> It's a very treatable form. >> Weren't you like when you were first. diagnosed with the cancer, you didn't. know it was so easily treatable and you. you. had some moments of not despair, but at.

least feeling not like yourself. >> Right. >> Yeah. And were you able to overcome that? >> Yes, um. you know, I think that. So, with this book, um it's been a long. journey. Um it's been a long, winding, and bumpy road. My first book came out. uh. almost 10 years ago. And in the next few years, I worked on a. different book. And my agent at the time, my first. agent, he didn't like it, and he dropped.

me. And then I spent years working on Little. Wonder. And my second agent saw an. earlier version of Little Wonder, and. she didn't like it. She dropped me, too. And in the midst of all of that, I was. diagnosed with thyroid cancer. And you know, each time I was knocked. back, I thought about the story that I. wanted to tell, and how I can make it. more powerful. And each time the thought. of implementing those changes made me. excited.

And I kept reminding myself, in any good. story, you have to face obstacles, and. you have to keep going, and you have to. face more obstacles, and you still have. to keep going, and you have to hit rock. bottom, and you still have to keep going. before things can turn around. And so, for me, the difference between. despairing and giving up and persisting. and keeping the faith. was not so much the things that happened. to me, how many good, how many bad, but. the narrative I could tell myself of the.

things that happened to me, and the way I could connect and. interpret those events, and. >> That's how we're supposed to live life. It's not about what happens, but it's. your response to what happens. >> Right. >> So, every time you were set back, you. didn't give up. >> Right, exactly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then I called. >> Oh my gosh. I can't believe it still. I I can't. believe I'm sitting here talking to you. >> And you've said that that experience of. having thyroid cancer informed the the.

mother song and song's journey. >> Mhm. >> Tell us how. >> So, when I started writing the book, I. didn't know what exactly Song's journey. would look like. I didn't have the plot. points mapped out, and I didn't know. where things were headed. Um I just took. it a day at a time, and as I was. approaching the end, I felt like it. would be bittersweet because. a straightforward happily ever after is. just not in the cards for someone like.

Song. Um but I tried one way, and it wasn't. working, and I tried rewriting a. different way, and it still wasn't. resonating. And around that time, I went to the. doctor for my normal annual checkup. And. you know how they feel along the sides. of your neck? Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And this time she was feeling, and she. found a lump, and it turned out to be. thyroid cancer. And I was totally shocked because I'm in. my 30s, and I had no other complaints.

Um but luckily, thyroid cancer is very. treatable. So, as you said, I'm back to. 100% but going through all of that, um I. understand now what it feels like to. >> Did you have to do chemotherapy or. >> No, they do They remove the thyroid. It's thyroidectomy, and then you do. what's called radioactive iodine. therapy. Yeah. Um but I understand now what it feels. like to carry around this uncertainty. as you're waiting for your diagnosis, and you're waiting for surgery and.

treatment, you're waiting to recover, then you're waiting for your follow-ups. And you have to do all of this waiting. while carrying out your normal. day-to-day life. You have to take care. of the kids. >> does not stop. >> It doesn't. The kids. >> Anybody who's had cancer or been ill. understands that. Yeah. >> Yeah, exactly. And so, I drew on all of. that as I wrote Song's journey as she is. waiting to find her son while, you know, at the same time trying to build a new. life for herself. And I drew on it.

especially with the ending, um you know, Song doesn't get thyroid cancer, but I. hope my specific emotional truth is what. makes her journey feel authentic and. universal. >> Well, this entire audience has read the. book. That must feel good as an as a. writer, right? That. >> Oh, it's amazing. This is the uh first, you know, early feedback. So, it's just. It's really cool. The book has been just. mine for so long, and now it's, yeah. >> Now it belongs to us. So, the whole audience has read the. book, and so many people have questions.

for you. Julie, what's your question? >> Um well, Oprah, if I can tell you first. that I've been learning from you since I. was eight, and you are not only the best. teacher that I've ever had, but the. greatest influence in my life outside of. my immediate family. And I just my goal. was to just say thank you. So, thank. you. >> Thank you. Thank you for that. >> And And Sophie, I think you may have. touched on my question. >> years old you've been watching? >> 47, yeah. Sorry. Um. >> that. >> Yeah.

Um but Sophie, I I am a new empty. nester, and I am loving this season of. life after being a stay-at-home mom, but. I know a lot of other mothers are really. struggling with purpose, and finding. their purpose after their children leave. home. And in your story, Song seems to. devote her entire life to River, and is. lost without him. Were you trying to. explore the idea that motherhood can. both fulfill and erase a woman at the. same time?

>> I think motherhood. can change our lives and ourselves into. something different, and even. unrecognizable at times. Um I think for Song, this concept of. balancing. being a mom with having a life outside. of the kids is not at all on her mind, because her life simply does not allow. for it. Um she spends nearly every waking moment.

working to survive and support her. family. She doesn't have the time or the. resources to cultivate a hobby or go on. vacation. or um even meet a friend for coffee. You. know, her courtship with Blue. they don't sit down and have a meal. together or go out and do a fun. activity. They are getting to know each. other while walking to and from from. work. >> All right, LaFern.

>> Yes, thank you, Oprah. What an amazing story. I never thought when I started reading. that I would see so many parallels with. my own life. I. went back to the days when I started. playing piano. I played musical. instruments from a young age. My solo mom. with my father gave me one of the best. gifts I've ever had. And it was an old. upright piano and piano lessons. And I I.

heard you talk about how much your mom. made and how much the piano cost. And I. can remember a season in my own mother's. life where she was doing days work. making $25 a day. and paid $75 for this old upright piano. >> Mhm. >> Fast forward, when I think back to the. music and how it makes me remember who I. am. after many different life transitions, I. decided to gift myself with a piano and.

I did a few years ago. I thought about Tchaikovsky's Concerto. No. 1 and what an emotional piece it is. What made you specifically select that. piece to be what I see as the spine of. the story? >> COME ON, LAFERNE. >> COME ON, LAFERNE.

And before you even answer that, I just. want to say where where you where you. born and raised? >> Maryland. So, I remember you in. Baltimore. >> In Baltimore in those early days. But, I. think here's is here's a a beautiful. Maryland woman who has nothing in common. with this boy in Beijing. and the music connects you through the. story and the words that you've written. And that's the beauty of books. That is. the real wonder of books, isn't it? >> It is. >> That you would see yourself in that. boy's story. Pretty amazing.

>> It is. >> It is. It is. Yeah. >> I could cry for you right now, so. It's so amazing. Yeah. >> Um so, there are a handful of concertos. that have taken on this mythical status. There are movies made about them. They. strike fear into the heart of every. pianist, and they're widely regarded as. some of the most difficult pieces a. pianist can learn.

And I wanted to choose one of those. legendary concertos to represent this. dream of greatness that Song and River. have. And I chose Tchaikovsky's first because. it felt so much like this book itself. It's big and sweeping. with equally big emotions. And it's noble enough to feel like a.

homecoming, but nostalgic enough to feel like a home. calling. >> Thank you. Thank you. And aren't the book notes uh. hidden on the cover? >> Yes. So, those notes on the power line. are not just random notes. If you play. them, you hear the opening melody to. Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto. It's the melody played by the strings. >> Oh.

>> Now you have to try playing it. Yeah. >> Little secret there. Angela, what do you. want to say? >> First of all, I wanted to say hi. >> Hi. >> Oprah. >> Thank you. >> and um I really really uh enjoyed the. book. >> What did you appreciate about the story? >> I really appreciated the fact that it. showed real people, um meaning. working-class and poor people, because. there's another. you know, um and also that it was. contemporary and modern. Um you know,

the song had a really tough life, but. there were pockets of joy. I just wanted. to know like about your class politics. and you know, kind of where um how it. was informed and um has it changed any. in the last few years? >> So, growing up, I was aware of the. differences between what I had and what. my cousins had. Going back for the summer, I would come. with a suitcase full of clothes and they.

would have two or three outfits that. they rotated between the whole summer. And I understood that the difference was. because I lived in the US and my parents. were educated. And as a kid, I kind of just accepted it. as a fact and um I didn't have any other. reference point. I only lived with my. relatives when I went back to China. But then, when I moved to Beijing and I. lived there as an adult, I saw all that. the city had to offer for those who.

could afford it, you know, the wealthy, the powerful, the educated. And as an expat, I lived in a central. location. and I lived in a nice high-rise. compound, and I could go to nice. restaurants. I could install heavy-duty. air purifiers. I could buy imported fruits and. vegetables and drink filtered imported. water. Um and that kind of life is it runs.

parallel to the lives lived by all the. migrant workers who built the city, but. they can't afford to live in it, and. they can't. enjoy all that it has to offer. But I also know life on the other side. of that parallel track. Um. My uncle for a time, um lived and worked. in Beijing as a taxi driver. And when I. went to visit him, he lived way, way. outside of the city in this area that.

smelled so strongly of sewage because um. these homes didn't have flushing. toilets. So, people would empty their. waste and their trash um right outside. their door in an open canal. And so, um it's a bit of an interesting. perspective having lived on both sides. of this track that otherwise would never. touch. >> Hm. And so, having lived on both sides of. the track has given you the. you know, not only the material, but. also an understanding of a world that.

you know, most people will never see or. don't understand. And so, you become the. voice for that world. >> Right. And you really see the distance. between them when you've been at both. points. >> At both points. >> Yeah. >> My Tish, yes? >> Yeah. Um thanks Sophie so much for. joining us for this conversation today. I really enjoyed following the emotional. journeys of Song and River, the ups and. downs that they faced over the years. Um. I was curious how you thought about.

telling this story through flashbacks, and in particular setting the start of. it, or rather like the court incident in. 2016. As you mentioned, a lot of the. things like delivery and the ubiquity of. smartphones, that feels like it could. have happened today. So, what what made. you want to set it in 2016? >> So, China's development is interesting. because. it went through leaps where it changed a. lot in a short period of time.

And I got to personally witness these. leaps um. through my visits each time I went back. to see my family in the northeast. Um one summer I would go back and the. streets would be made of dirt and people. are using cash and they don't have so. much of it. Um they're just trying to. keep their bellies full. And the next. time I go back, those same streets are. paved and broadened and landscaped with. trees and flowers and people have more. cash and they're buying appliances with.

it or landline phones. And then when I. moved there in 2019, the cash was gone. and everything was done on a smartphone. And for the structure and the. flashbacks, um. originally, the story was written in. chronological order and it started with. River's birth in the northeast. And as it was progressing, it wasn't. feeling right. It didn't have the right balance.

It's like when you're eating a dish of. food and it's only sweet or only salty, it gets one-dimensional. But if it's. sweet and salty and bitter and acidic. and spicy and all of the flavors, um. each bite is exciting and you want to. you want to keep eating. And so, that's. what I wanted from the structure of the. book. And so, I started at different. points in time and I must have. completely torn down and rewritten the. whole book at least three or four times.

And one day I was facing yet another. total teardown and rewrite. when I had this sudden, very clear, but. very random image in my mind of a braid. And I didn't know what it meant. Um but then I started thinking, you. know, there are three strands to the. story, Song story in the present, I'll call that strand A, Song story in. the past, I'll call that B, and River. story, I'll call that C.

And I wonder what happens if I just. start braiding them, A B C B A B C B. And almost all the pieces fell into. place, and I knew that was the way to. tell Song and River story. >> Thank you. >> Authors. What can I say? Wow. That's incredible. That's incredible. A. braid vision comes to you. >> totally random, and I didn't even know. what it meant. Yeah. >> But you knew it meant something.

>> Yes, it was so clear. >> I I believe that. I do. I mean, but but I've never heard. that before. Never heard that before. So, Song the mother lives in poverty, and um after giving birth to River, on. page 19 you describe her home life with. like this, you say, she felt like she. was lying in a bog, gnats swarming her. greasy hair, ants crawling up her sticky. back whenever she rolled over. She saw. her mother crouched at the foot of the. bed cleaning the vegetables or the floor.

or the diapers, which had been cut out. of soft sweatshirts. The village was a mud pit when it rained. and a dust bowl when it didn't. How did. you know a life like this in such. detail? >> I know these homes very well. >> Mhm. >> You know, I know this one room with a. gigantic hearth bed and the folding. tables you take out for meals, and when. the meal's done, you fold it away. I know these little kitchens with the. single giant wok and the basin of water.

for for ladling. And I've lived in many of these homes, and that's because I was born in. northeastern China in a rural area a lot. like Song's Lake Yard. My great-grandparents were farmers and. fishermen. My grandfather on one side was a machine. repair technician, and on the other side. a middle school teacher. And my aunts and uncles were pedicab. drivers, they were food cart vendors. And they and people like them are the.

ones who built modern China. And yet so few stories are written about. them, and so I wrote this story. I want. to let them know that they are seen. And I hope that everyone reading the. story will live in these homes with. them. >> Mhm. >> And will miss them. >> Yeah. >> my sticky back and the gnats and all. that. We did. >> Oh, good. >> Shadeen, you have a question. >> Yes. Um, first of all, thank you so much. for this opportunity and congratulations.

on this achievement. I'm now itching to. read The Luster of Lost Things. >> Yeah. >> Um, my question relates to how this book. resonated the most with me, which is Song's ceaseless will to want. to give her little boy a better life. than obviously the one that she had. Um, and just an undying devotion, and that's. because of course I was blessed to I am. blessed with a mother who fled Iran, and. she ended up in Turkey, had to pay. smugglers to take my brother and I to. Greece, and then finally she got a a.

golden ticket and came to Canada, and. she certainly achieved that goal. Um, and now I'm a a new mother myself. My little boy's a a year and a half, and. um, as a new mother you don't you don't. really feel like the world appreciates. these these moments, the sleepless. nights, the postpartum period, and you. captured those moments so beautifully. I. remember one line about. Rivers' hand on his possessive hand on. his mother's breast, and it was just.

very, very palpable that love. And so, I. wondered, how did you draw on your. experiences as a mother in crafting. those moments? >> Right. When I started writing this book, I was so excited to get back to writing. and to write about all these. motherhood-related topics. Those. precious, tender, fleeting moments of. you know, snuggling with your baby and. giggling together and seeing those. little personalities emerge and seeing. the world through their eyes.

And, you know, there's a scene in the. book where Song is eating lunch and she. starts leaking breast milk onto her. shirt. >> Mhm. >> Or, um, in the early weeks where she's. still bleeding. Those were physical realities of. motherhood that had taken me by me by. surprise. I didn't know about them. And. the process of writing all of that was. like building a bridge and it connected. who I had been as a writer with who I. had become as a mother. >> Mhm. Well, Song's own mother.

uh, obviously does not care for her in. the same way that Song cares for River. And her mother is resentful, seems to. be, and bitter. And what were you trying. to show in the polar opposite styles of. parenting? >> The way Song's mother mothers is a. reflection, I think, of the way she was. mothered. >> Mhm. >> And the way Song mothers River.

is a reaction to how she was mothered. Yeah, she, um, showers River with all. the warmth and affection that she had. longed for from her own mother and never. got. >> She's giving what she yearned for. Yes. >> Yeah, exactly. And later in the book, you know, Phyllis offers River. resources, um mentorship, education. These are. things that Song wants to give him. And I think across all three styles, there is there is love there, even with.

Song's own mother, but she's just this. is the way she knows how to express it. >> All right. So, River is is as we were. saying earlier, he's this piano prodigy. who starts playing at the age of What. was he? Four? Yeah, four. Four. And. what is so interesting is on page eight. you write, "It was obvious at a glance. that her son was meant for more. Those. ears protruding from the sides of his. head, perfectly formed to scoop the.

music right out of the air. That sink. runs water in G. That spoon clattered to. the floor in A flat. And that light bulb. flicked on in D sharp. And that tinker. hollered under their window in a horse. C, while the keys over his shoulder. jingled in a brassy F.". As we were saying earlier, that's such a. descriptive way to explain how the music. is in him. Is that in also in you?

That's how you relate? >> I do not have perfect pitch and I'm not. anywhere near a prodigy. Um but like I said, I started learning. the piano when I was seven and it wasn't. until I was in middle school that I. became more serious about it. Um I saw. an ad for the Disney Youth Orchestra and. they were looking for a new pianist. And. so I thought, "I'm going to be Disney's. pianist." And so I started practicing an.

hour a day or an hour and a half a day. And I filled out an application form and. I sent in an audition tape and I never. heard back. And but the the habit of practicing an. hour and a half a day stuck with me, and. so that's how I became a decent pianist. in a really ordinary way. Um, in high school I won a local. competition, but I wouldn't be able to. win anything bigger. And when I went to college, I stopped. this habit of practicing every day.

And for many years, I didn't touch a. piano. And in recent years, I've started. getting back into it, just playing for. myself and just for fun. And that started after my son was born. I was reading that classical music was. good for baby's brain development, and. so I started playing him recordings of. my favorite pieces back in the day. And I must have been listening to so. much music during the day that at night. when I woke up, I would notice this ache.

in my hands. Almost as if my fingers. wanted to stretch and play those pieces. again. And so, once life settled down a bit, um, I bought a third-hand Yamaha. upright, and I dug up my old music. scores, and I started relearning some of my. favorite pieces, and I started with. Hungarian Rhapsody No. 6, which is a. piece that River plays. A lot of the pieces that he plays in the.

book are pieces I've played. Not the Tchaikovsky. I can't play that. But, um, you know, his experiences. performing on the stage, I drew from my. own experiences performing. And the way he practices, um, he'll. syncopate rhythms, or if he's working on. a tricky passage, he'll bring it up to. speed slowly, one metronome notch at a. time. Or, you know, the way he practices. three notes in one hand versus seven in. the other hand in La leggierezza. I. mean, these are ways that I know how to.

practice. >> Okay, Rivers, there's a little River in. you. >> Not at all. Not at all. >> Saloni has a question. Yes. >> Thank you so much, Oprah. Um. Sophie, I did not know that a book could. make me feel so many things. Um one moment that stuck with me was. when Blue passes away and Song is trying. really hard to cope with this loss. And sh- her instinct to text him and to.

just believe that he is just far away. like any other migrant worker trying to. navigate their long-distance. relationship was. very tough to read. What made you portray grief in this. manner? >> When. when Song first receives the news, um. she's in denial and then she's in shock. Um Blue is cut so suddenly and.

unexpectedly from her life. that she knows that he's gone, but she still feels his presence. It's. like um a phantom limb or something. And. you know, her she hasn't caught up with. this new reality yet and so sh- when. something happens, she feels this. instinct to text him and to tell him. about it. Um and the poignant thing about her. situation is that even when she does. catch up to this new reality,

that new reality is not so different. from her old reality what because. they're used to being separated and. going years without seeing each other. >> Thank you. >> So, we're not going to give away the. nail-biting ending, of course, but I. heard some of the audience members who. read were in tears. Did you always know. you wanted it to end that way? Did you. know that that was going to be the. ending? >> I didn't. I tried a few different. versions, but I did know um. with the ending, you You there's a line,

um to come home, you have to journey. forth. And I knew that was what I. wanted, sort of the overarching message. I wanted people to take away. Um, you know, it's easy. >> come home. >> you have to journey forth. >> Yeah, you have to journey forth. >> Because, you know, it's it's easy to. choose to stay at home, which is this. place where we feel safe and. comfortable, but an easy life is not the same thing. as a good life.

And it's probably the opposite because. it's in times of great challenge and. great uncertainty and great risk that we. can transform ourselves and rise up and. do something equally great. >> Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You did such a. great job with this book. >> Thank you. >> And thank you to everyone who has read. it. And thank you to our, uh, readers. for your just really insightful, insightful, insightful, uh, terrific.

questions. And it's my 124th. book club selection. >> Wow. >> 124. Wow. Little Wonder is available wherever. books are sold. Until next time, everybody, go well. 124. IF YOU LIKE A sweeping story, you can. really sink your teeth into, you.

will enjoy Little Wonder by Sophie Chen. Keller. It's the saga of this mother and. her young son, and it stays with you. You can buy my 124th Oprah's Book Club. pick, Little Wonder, right now. Just by. scanning the QR code on the screen. You'll have it in seconds. Happy reading, book lovers. Our listeners tell us that the podcast. is resonating with you and is serving as. a bright spot in your day, that means a. lot to me. So, here's the thing. I would.

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