Sons Are Struggling. Here’s What They Need from Us with Psychologist Dr. Shefali

This episode of the Oprah podcast is. presented by our partner Geico. I do. think this is your best work. I do think. this is a reason you've come to the. planet for this moment and to [music]. try to bring us back to save our. children. >> They are being abducted by the algorithm. in front of our eyes. >> Whoa. A generation of young men withering in. childhood bedrooms. No friendships, [music] no fire, no purpose. So how do.

parents begin to give their sons fire. and purpose? We are forgetting [music]. that the predatory man who grows up to. harm us later was once a lost boy. >> and a boy who was not initiated into. adulthood. This is a wakeup call to. parents to stop outsourcing their. influence, their attachment and their. attention. Hi to you from my front porch. Thank you. for joining me on the Opert podcast. I'm.

here with world-renowned clinical. psychologist, parenting expert, and New. York Times bestselling author, Dr. Shafali. More than 15 years ago, she. released her groundbreaking work, The. Conscious Parent, one of the most. profound books on parenting I've ever. read. I give it to every new parent I. know. And then came many more. transformational bestsellers. But here's. what I think is so genius about Dr. Shafali. She's counseling parents and. paying attention to the evolving world. we're living in. And she starts to.

notice that children and teens are. really in trouble. How does she know. that? Cuz she's talking to them and they. are telling her. And parents feel like. they're drowning. She knows this because. that's what they're telling her. And. maybe just hearing that hits you in a. knowing place because you too feel like. you're drowning. Her next realization is. that our current culture is impacting. boys differently than it's impacting. girls. And it's getting harder, harder,

not easier to raise children. And I can. feel you all all nodding out there. And. now she's written not one but two new. books. Raising conscious sons, cultivating purpose, connection, and. inner power in a chaotic world and. raising conscious daughters, building. confidence, courage, and inner power in. an anxious world. There is so much to. learn. So we're doing this in two parts. This episode is all about raising. conscious sons. Welcome Dr. Shafali. Ofra, thank you. Thank you for being a.

steward. You know, I get emotional about. this because without you, I could not. have had the courage and the clarity. >> and the fortitude and the perseverance. to stick through because you always hold. my hand and tell me to keep going. because the resistance. The resistance. >> Yes. 15 years ago, the resistance to. even the word conscious, what it means. to be a conscious parent. Remember when. we first talked about it, people were. like resisting that and what does that. mean? and you can't tell me how to.

parent my kids and these are my kids. >> And back then my singular focus was to. help parents wake up to the teachers. that their children are and to have the. humility to not treat them like. property. >> Yes. >> This was back then. >> That was 15 years ago. Yes. >> And it was uncomfortable back then. But. today it has to be the clarion call. It. has to be the most urgent wake up.

blueprint that we need because in. today's world we have reached such a. cultural inflection point where this. wounded adult male ego. obsessed with greed and domination has. created a culture that is so misaligned. to the spiritual, emotional, psychological needs of our children. >> and the the abyss between what they need.

and what culture is providing has become. this gaping chasm and we parents are. lost in it because we want to do good by. them. Every parent does. >> Real quickly for those who are not. familiar with Dr. Shvali's work, I want. you to first explain the concept of. conscious parenting. I came, it came to me this this movement. of conscious parenting as my rebellion. against the traditional model that.

insists on sacrificing, exploiting, manipulating and using our children as. cattle and property. And when I saw. myself do it right, when I was a. therapist coaching other parents, I was. like, "Oh, this parent is just. unconscious and that parent is. unconscious." But Oprah, when I saw. myself. desire to dominate my daughter and I saw. my own ego and I had the humility to see. it because it takes courage to see the. force of your own shadow.

That's when I knew if I'm in trouble, if. my ego is a pipeline that is just. infusing my daughter with its. unconscious garbage and I'm not. interrupting this pipeline, how can any. other parent? It it's basically. understanding the principle that Khalil. GR said when he said, "Your children. come through you, but they're not of. you. >> They do not belong to you. >> They do not belong to you." And that was. a really hard thing for people to accept. because everybody thinks this is my. child. This is my property. I can do.

with my child whatever I want instead of. this is another conscious being that I. certainly have participated in bringing. to the planet. But this conscious being. is here to teach me as much as I am to. guide and teach him or her. >> Yes. But. >> that is the whole concept. Yes. >> Right. But if the parent hasn't been. raised in their own sovereign self, >> right? >> Then we have to have compassion for the. parent that there is no way that they. can see another being as separate from.

them because they were used in their. parents. >> And so you're just doing what was done. >> Doing what was done. I was used I will. use. I I was exploited. I will exploit. And this is the mass disease of our. world. >> I know. But most parents don't think. that they're using or exploiting their. kids. They think they're providing and. protecting and giving and offering. Well, so in the beginning of raising. conscious sons, you write a wakeup call. letter to parents. You say, "We are amid. a parental and cultural emergency." See.

if this resonates with you all who are. parents. a crisis. where our sons are losing the essential. ingredients of what make a healthy. boyhood. Wildness, movement, tribe, adventure, risk, connection, and sovereignty to. name a few. This erosion is what I call. the lost blueprint of boyhood. Tell us. more, >> Oprah. I interviewed over 50 boys and. young men for this book and young girls.

and young women. And I have so many male. clients who speak of their confusion, their wanting to be a steward for women. and children but not knowing how in a. world that keeps pressuring them, keeps. shaming them and keeps diminishing who. they are. And I know we women have been. so subjugated that we've been on this. rampage and on this war cry and we. should. >> But we are forgetting that the predatory.

man who grows up to harm us later was. once a lost boy. >> And a boy who was not stewarded, who was. not shepherded, who was not initiated. into adulthood. And if we don't take. care of that lost boy, how can we take. care of the predatory man who he grows. up to be? So if we want to. >> because by the time they grow up to be. the predatory men there, there there's. nothing we can do. >> because they've been so severed from. their own sense of self and and we.

parents may not be able to outpace the. algorithm. We cannot change systems in. the world, global systems, but we have. power in our home. And we have to. reclaim boyhood, which means boys have a. different way of processing feelings. People think that, oh, boys, they don't. feel that much. They feel as much as. girls. Their pathway of expression is. different. They feel through the body, through their movement. Then come the. words. >> I learned so much because parents are.

always saying, "Use your words. Use your. words." Boys don't know how to do that. because that's not how boys communicate, right? I never knew that. >> And they're not ready yet because their. prefrontal cortex, which allows that. kind of articulation processing, turns. online much later than girls. So telling. a young seven-year-old who's tantruming. and got so much fire and energy and. intensity, which scares the mother, what. does he do? No one is helping him. contain these fires. And the mother is. saying, "Use your words." Or, "You're a.

bad child." or you're an ADHD boy and. they're punishing them at schools and. they're making them sit like girls. That. is not the pathway, the. neurodedevelopmental pathway that a boy. needs. So the environment is failing our. boys. Wildness is being medicated. They've been told to sit still and. restrain their fire instead of us. allowing that fire to be contained and. allowing it to be intense. And one of. the things you go on to write is that a. generation of young men withering in.

childhood bedrooms, no friendships, no. fire, no purpose. Are we describing your. son? No purpose. Statistically, these. boys are the most isolated demographic. and the most likely to take their own. lives. So, how do parents begin to give. their sons fire and purpose? First of. all, you got to get the book if you have. a son because I know so many of you are. frustrated and feel like you're drowning.

because you don't know that boys and. girls are really really really. biologically, hormonally, >> developmentally. on a different trajectory. >> on a Yeah. They actually think. differently. >> They think differently and we have to. nuance our parental interventions and. cultural interventions and we're not. right. And if we think women and girls. have been given a hard ride because of. the patriarchy, let me tell you, the. patriarchy is very intentional in making.

sure it controls its men and its boys as. well. And the latest tech revolution is. so precisely engineered to force boys. >> to sit in front of a screen because it's. giving them the adrenaline, the dopamine. hit that real life isn't. Yeah. >> So, they're getting their adventure, they're getting their achievement, they're getting status online. >> Yeah. What you say is what was a fight. for our children's attention has now. moved into a fight for their attachment.

Attachment. AI companions know exactly. how to speak to our children's. loneliness, how to mimic perfect. attunement, how to slip into the. exclusive spaces where only parents once. had access. And the predator, this is. the thing, the predator, Dr. Shiovali. says, has moved from the periphery. to their heart. And if we do not step up. with the presence and connection, our. boys may drift into its arms before we.

even notice they've been abducted. >> And whoa, that is some powerful stuff. right there. >> They are being abducted by the algorithm. in front of our eyes. and we are. helpless. We don't know how to reclaim. them. But there is a pathway back and. these books are the alarm and the. invitation to bring them back to us. >> Yeah. This is what I like about the. raising conscious sons and raising. conscious daughters is you're not just. stating the problem, but you're giving.

us a path to get there. Yes. >> And this now will be the gift I give to. everybody who has a boy or or girl. our. listeners [music] tell us that the. podcast is resonating with you and is. serving as a bright spot [music] in your. day. That means a lot to me. So, here's. the thing. I would really appreciate it. if you [music] like and subscribe to the. Oprah podcast on YouTube or wherever you. podcast. [music]. It's it's just a quick tap of the. subscribe button and that way you won't. miss an [music] episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know.

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understand that the way we move through. life and who we move through it with. matters. And I know that life starts to. move even faster as a new school year. begins. Fall routines get underway, the. calendar fills up. Whether you're. waiting in the school pickup [music]. line, loading up the car for a weekend. getaway, taking a quiet drive home after. a hard day, or cheering on your son or. daughter from the sidelines, these. moments remind us the road is not always. a straight line. Geico is there with.

insurance designed to help [music] keep. you covered along the way. Because life. happens and with the right support we. all just keep driving forward and that. [music] dear listener is everything. So you say this is a thing that struck. me so many times. I mean I've been. reading you and promoting you and. singing your praises for years. I do. think this is your best work. I do think. this is the reason you've come to the. planet for this moment to alert the.

world to what is happening and to try to. bring us back to save our children. And. you say that we are going to lose a. shared reality. What does that mean? And. what happens when we do? >> You know, we used to wait at the bus. stop, right? We used to wait to go to. the movies. We used to collide with each. other. We used to have all sorts of. diversity. We were forced to confront. humans. And now as we're becoming more. privileged, more advanced, more. progressive, we are actually moving away.

from a shared reality and the algorithm, you know, manipulates that. So they. provide you with what you like, your. interests. So actually it's creating. these mini cultike environments online. where you are not facing diversity, but. you're getting more siloed into your own. little bubble. So two siblings growing. up in the same house could be having a. different interpretation of the world. and different world news, different. world realities than the next one. And.

when that happens, our ability to. connect breaks down. And that's what. they capitalize on because the more. lonely and disconnected and paranoid we. are of each other, the easier we are to. manipulate because fear profits. >> Yes. And this is the thing that I want. you all to remember who are listening to. this, that it started out that they were. trying to get your kids' attention, but. now they're going for their attachment. And that is why so many parents are. suffering with their kids who are. attached to their devices.

>> Yes. Literally addicted to them. >> And the answer to that digital abduction. is relational connection. And that's. where the parent has supreme and. sovereign power. If they are in their. own body, if they are willing to step. into consciousness and take their. children away from the computer codes. and the algorithm, parents need to step. back. This is a wakeup call to parents. to stop outsourcing their influence, their attachment, and their attention. That's what we need to. >> because so many parents have used it as.

a babysitter, as a as a as a way of. relieving themselves. >> It's numbing. It's numbing for us, right? And it's entertaining. It's very. specifically designed to create the. dopamine hunger that we're looking for. So now ordinary conversations or. listening to the birds or just feeling. the breeze feels too insignificant for. us. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. Because the. brain needs more more and more more dop. dopamine. >> We have parents of sons joining us and. Nicole is zooming in from New York. Hi. Nicole. Hi. >> Hi there. It's so wonderful to be with.

the two of you. >> Um Dr. Shafali, thank you for being such. a resource for us as parents when we. sometimes feel very lost. And of course, Oprah, thank you so much for bringing. Dr. Shafali to us uh many years ago. Um. I wanted to share a little bit about u. my situation. I have two sons uh 11 and. eight. My older son um has been. diagnosed with ADHD and he's neurode. divergent. and my younger one is also.

displaying some of this a similar uh. profile. So he potentially has that same. pathway. >> Explain to us what neurode divergent. means. >> Sure. Um the way they process. information, sensory processing, self-regulation challenges, executive. function differences. So ADHD generally falls under that. category. I love Dr. Shafali's writings. and I really try to employ so many of.

the principles of conscious parenting to. to raising my two sons, but it can be. really challenging when they are. overloaded and they're they're receiving. a wave of emotions and so it quickly. escalates into big body behaviors. whether it's scratching or kicking or. punching or throwing something across. the room. And in that moment, it is a. self-awareness moment for me to.

self-regulate, to hold space, but also. um keeping myself safe and not shame. trigger them in the moment or try to. control them in the moment. So, how do I. use conscious parenting and um you know, really consider what that looks like. when dealing with children uh with ADHD. or neurode divergence. >> Yeah. So, I have a lot to say. So, just. really quickly, when I hear labels like. that, I'm always skeptical. Yeah.

Because the environment is so toxic for. what boys truly need, right? They need. intentional daily intense movement. They. need to express that fire. But they sit. in a circle for circle time in in books. uh learning about languages and and. countries that they will never touch or. need. And they then come back home to. you, a volcano, a rocket ship ready to. launch. And now poor mom is at home. >> and nobody's and nobody's playing.

outside anymore. >> Nobody's playing outside. They've not. done any activity. They they they have. all this energy and they they've been. they've been told to suppress it all day. long. So you get a rocket ship when they. come home. And mom is tired. She's at. work. She has a career. She's going to. the gym. She's exhausted. Dad is. probably the same. There's no tribe. There's no community to buttress, to. buffer, to absorb these boys wild. energy. So, we label them, medicate. them, and then get scared of them. So,

the first thing I'll tell you is we have. to have compassion for what's happening. to your boy before he even comes home. from school because it's a travesty. what's happening to our boys. The. education system is suppressing and. suffusing their spirit. And then we. wonder why they're acting like. >> because one of the things that you. emphasize over and over is that boys. need movement. Yes. And that if a boy is. allowed to have enough movement that he. will regulate, he will regulate. He will. regulate. It is his language. >> Yes. And all of that movement feels like. wildness and too much particularly for a.

lot of mothers. >> and a and a lot of female teachers, a. lot of women because we're not wired. exactly the same way, right? So we are. okay with sitting calm and we use our. words. So that wildness feels very. threatening for us. The next thing I. will tell you is let's not mistake. intensity for danger. But we do because. we are not used to that wild energy. And. the third thing I'll say to you as a. mother, be aware of your triggers. because this wild energy reminds us of.

all the betrayals we've experienced at. the hands of adult male wild energy. But. boy wild energy is different. It is. genuinely their inability to regulate, right? And then that gets mutated and. perverted in the adult male. But we. women have been so sacrificed to that. adult male energy that we associate it. and then when we see our young boys, we.

project, oh, he must be bad. He's going. to be dangerous. He's evil. And we judge. and shame them without our realizing. Do. we celebrate it? Do we say this energy. is your fire and fuel that can become. your achievement, can become your. protection, can become your your. generative. >> It's so interesting because I remember. when when I was reading your book uh you. know raising conscious sons I remember. my godson Will Gail's son when he was. like two or three years old and I said. to Gail what these boy boy he's so.

different than Kirby cuz he would come. into the room moving. >> Yes. and saying things like vroom vroom. and I was thinking he's always making. noise. He's always into something. He's. always. >> that is so beautiful about our masculine. boys and men. They're embodied. They. have to feel it through the body, through sound, through touch, through. physicality. But we. >> And so the huge mistake some parents. make is that they believe that boys. they're expecting the boys to behave.

like their sisters. >> or like us like like the women, right? like and they think that is good. So. from a young age a boy is shamed and. suppressed. We have to understand this. So by the time he hits pre puberty and. puberty where testosterone. goes through the roof 50 times goes. right now we want to really sway. Yeah. We want to stuff them into a box and so. that we are in a collision course with. their development and they feel it and. they don't know what to do with their. energy. So what I need to tell you is.

that you keep yourself safe. You can say. you can create a conscious boundary. I. cannot let you hit me. I need to leave. the room and I will be back. But I'm. right here. This energy that you have, I. love it. Let's let's do something with. it. Let's throw all the pillows. Let's. run outside. Let's race. And I tell. parents, anytime you are in a battle. with your boy, it means they are. disregulated because they haven't moved. enough. Just take it as a formula. Instead of telling them to brush their.

teeth, make them do 10 jumping jacks, go. through an obstacle course, find the. toothpaste, find the toothbrush, and. race with you. And then they will do it. If you don't channel that fire, it will. mutate. It'll become apathy, listlessness, and perverted anger. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So, your role is to channel. Think of. yourself as a channeler. How do I direct. this? You you are the walls of the. tunnel, but that wind must have a place. to go. Right. You want that energy to be.

directed, not turned inward. Nicole, you're going to see yourself over and. over and over in this book. You're going. to so appreciate this book. This is. going to help you uh be a better mother. and your sons really evolve into the. young men that you want and they want. for themselves. Raising conscious sons. I I I I can't say enough about it. Thank. you for your question. Thank you for. your question. But I could see you I. could see this resonating with you just. from hearing this.

>> Absolutely. I mean it gives such hope. Absolutely. >> You are going to be ahaing all through. this book. Thank you so much. >> You know Oprah writing these books is. really my ode and homage to the men in. the world who have been sidelined under. the guise of toxic patriarchy. Most men. have gotten a bad rap because all men. are not toxic. They want to do good but. no one has shown them the path for that. conscious masculinity. And that's why I. talk about the seven pillars. I lay it. out so clearly. If we as parents can.

nurture these seven pillars uh like. regulation, competence, vulnerability, sovereignty, sexual power, belonging, we. they will be able to integrate a. masculinity that will make us proud. That brings me to to to this that you. write on page 248 that I actually teared. up when reading it because um I have a a. friend Bob Green and Bob and Urana have. a beautiful beautiful boy Kaden whom. they've done exactly this I mean exactly.

mentored their son in such a powerful. way. You say when a father mentors his. son he offers more than advice. He. offers belief and that belief becomes. scaffolding inside the boy's nervous. system. It steadies him. It organizes. him. It gives him a place to stand. So. what do sons want most from their. fathers? >> Well, let's talk about fathers and the. wounded masculine in our fathers. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Because fathers can get a bad rap, but.

they are wounded. They are lost. They. were never mentored. They were they were. looked at by their mothers with fear, suspicion, paranoia, and they were. suppressed. They have been suppressed. all their lives. Men are not supposed to. be in suits and boots. They're supposed. to be out in the wild chasing boar and. lion and getting exhausted at the end of. the day and then sitting around a. fireplace with their brothers. Men are. supposed to move in packs. This. competition that the patriarchy has. created has robbed our fathers of their.

own belonging to themselves. So now you. give them a son to raise typically two. things happen. One is that they see. their own shameful shamed self in the. sun. So if the son happens to be in. touch with their vulnerability, their. tears, their their side that is in touch. with feeling. >> Yeah. >> That was shamed in the in the father. He. will shut it down because he hasn't. owned it and integrated and celebrated. it within himself. It's in his shadow.

The next thing that happens that I've. seen a lot is that fathers because they. themselves are holding on in this tough. patriarchy which tells them to be tough. and compartmentalized and succeed at all. costs. They cannot pass the baton to. their sons and sons are longing for. their fathers to look at them and say I. see you my son. This should happen by. the age of 14 15 I see you. You are. ready now to enter manhood and I'm here. to have that conversation. I'm here to. have this right of passage.

>> And that I see you shows up in. everything that happens. It's not a big. conversation, >> but for a son to have his father say, I. see you, my son, and you are now going. to be greater than I could ever be. And. here I want to now walk in your shadow. >> You actually talk about the fact that. it's not telling the sun how to do. something. It's doing the thing with the. sun and seeing the sun do it. Even if. the son makes a mistake, being able to. say, you know, I made mistakes like. that, too. Because what the son is.

looking for is validation from his. father. >> And it has to be embodied presence. When. you think boy, you think embodiment in. the body. That's how they speak. That's. how they learn. Shouldertosh shoulder. doing with together. And that's the. belonging they're looking for. So if you. want to immunize your son against the. predatorial manosphere and the toxic. patriarchy, the father needs to see. their lost self in the sun and nurture. that son that they never could for. themselves. >> Hello dear listener. Head over to the.

Oprah podcast [music] Instagram to check. out the takeaway presented by Geico. I'm really happy to tell you about my. latest conversation [music] with. >> It's that quiet time I take after an. interview where I can reflect on what. sparked and what stuck with me. I love. to share those takeaways with y'all. Unbelievable. And Geico [music] is proud. to support these moments and the. journeys they inspire with insurance. designed to keep you covered and make. [music] life's road a little more. manageable. So go to the Oprah podcast.

Instagram where you can [music] check it. out. And you believe this about mothers. A. mother's greatest gift to her son is not. protection from struggle, but an undying. belief in his capacity to face it. without falling apart. I just thought, wow. And when that faith in his inner. resourcefulness is embodied, a boy. begins to trust his own footing. And. from that trust, power can finally grow.

So what should mothers be doing for. their boys? So just like you know in. conscious parenting one of the. foundational principles is that you will. project onto your child you will make. them a mini me. So now think about this. if mostly women are raising sons without. brotherhood without adult male. mentorship without community of the. elderly males. >> she is going to which boys need she is. going to try to raise him in her like. likelihood in her in her image whether.

she does this consciously or not. So, she's going to say, "Shh, use your words. or be nice, be soft, be like me." And. he's looking at her going, "Who on you. are an alien to me. You You're not. speaking my language." And this is where. misogyny starts, right? He begins to. resent her. He goes, "She doesn't get. me. She doesn't understand me." And then. because she is protective by nature and. she's caring, she doesn't realize that. fire doesn't need her hovering, her. overp protection, and her fear. Fire.

needs channel. It needs direction. It. needs the physical presence that says, "I see you and I'm not afraid of you.". Yeah. Yeah. >> But the woman is afraid of the sun. >> Yeah. I just love this. Her son is not. is she doesn't protect him from. struggle, but an undying belief in his. capacity to face it without falling. apart. >> But she doesn't trust him. >> Sons need to know you believe in me and. you see me. >> and you're not afraid of me. Afraid of. that fire energy. So we suppress it. Then it has nowhere to go. Then it.

really mutates and she's like, "You see, I knew you were dangerous like the other. men in my life." She's on a mission. subconsciously not to make him. >> like the other men in her life. Yes. >> So, anytime she sees intensity, she. associates it with danger. This is the. split, but intensity is his language. >> That's because we don't understand the. language of the boys. >> Yeah. >> Sandra is a mother of a 19-year-old son. in college. Sandra, I know you're. finding this interesting joining us from. California. Isn't this fascinating?

>> Very much so. Thank you both for having. me here and having me as part of this. conversation. So Oprah, as you. mentioned, I have a 19-year-old son. who's in college uh and his sister who's. 21 is also in college and I find it. difficult to not hover. So Dr. Shapali, as you mentioned, that that is hard. Uh. as an HR professional, that's my role to. guide people and so it's hard to pull. back. It's a little easier with my. daughter because she is uh getting that.

positive reinforcement from media, the. girl power movement, but my son is not. getting that same level of media uh. support, especially as a boy of color. So, how do I support him and show him. that he belongs and is valued? >> What a great loaded question. So, it's. layered. So, let me just piece apart the. layers. first for our boys of color, especially our black boys. I know how.

you as a mother must feel every time he. steps out into the cesspool of racism. and toxicity. So I understand why you're. different with him than you are with. your girl, right? Because there's a real. true. >> and we need to speak about it. Danger. >> danger. So, we need to also remember that our black. boys and our boys of color are not only. carrying generational trauma in their. bones. They are also carrying. generational resilience and generational.

brilliance. Right? You are not here. simply because you you just decided to. exist. It has been born and bred out of. generations of brilliance. And I think. boys of color need to be reminded that. reminded of that, right? Not just the. trauma but also the brilliance and the. resilience that he stands on. And then I. would say to you that you are trying to. so protect him from falling apart from. dissolving under the toxic toxic gaze.

and the toxicity of culture. You're so. protecting him. But in that you are not. giving him sovereignty. You are actually. communicating distrust. The world. already all the world already looks at. him with distrust. The world is already. telling him, "I don't know whether. you're going to be good enough." The. world is already telling him every. mistake is fatal, but so are you. Right? You're telling him, "Don't make a. mistake." You're trying to contour his. resume, but in doing that, you're. clipping his wings. And I understand.

where it's coming from, but you. inadvertently are becoming a microcosm. of the same culture that doesn't believe. in him. So he needs his mother to tell. him, "You, my black son, stand on. generations of brilliance. I know who. you are because of what you have. withtood, because of our ancestors. I. don't look at you as someone weak. I. look at you as someone who can teach me. and the world what strength is. So you. make any mistake you need to while you.

discover yourself. Don't let culture. tell you that your mistakes are fatal. and deterministic of your character. There is no morality to making mistakes. This is something that you need to do as. you discover who you are. So if if he. knows that in your gaze he is whole, he. is you know has impunity. he can discover with his fire and fall. down and there is no course chartered. for him because it is unchartered. Then.

you will give him the confidence. Confidence comes from competence, but. competence comes from struggle. And. you're trying to take away his struggle. >> Does this resonate with you? >> Thank you so much, Dr. This is. absolutely resonating with me. Thank you. so much because you're right. I got to. the pullback. Thank you. >> Thank you. All right. You're going to. love this book. You're going to love. this book, Raising Conscious Sons. And I. know that's what you've always wanted to. do and have done because your boy is. raised at 19. He's already been raised.

So, I I I I I applaud you for asking the. question and for actually wanting to do. better. So, thank you so much, Sandra. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. Thank you both. >> Jen is a mom of two boys joining us from. Iowa. What's going on in Iowa in your. home? Hi, >> Oprah. >> Hi, Jen. >> Hi, Oprah. Hi, Dr. Folly. Thank you for. having me here today. I appreciate the. opportunity to be a part of this. conversation on on an increasingly. important topic and one that is top of. mind for me on a daily basis. As a mom.

of two sons, like you said, 11 and 10. years old, uh we are very busy and. active in our household. And while the. the boys have very similar interests at. this stage, they have vastly different. personalities. Uh they have very. different confidence levels and they. express their emotions in very different. ways. So my question for you, Dr. Shafali is given that many boys are. taught early that strong emotions like. fear and sadness and vulnerability are. weaknesses. How do I raise my boys to.

acknowledge and maybe even embrace those. strong feelings and express them. authentically while navigating the. societal pressures to the contrary. >> Yeah. So, you know, we all know the. adage that boys are told don't be like. girls, don't cry like a girl. And so. they've associated true real heart-based. genuine feelings with something. negative, right? They've been so shamed. for their vulnerability. And what I. write in the book, and it's one of my.

pillars called vulnerability, that if we. do not allow ourselves, and this is for. every human, but more so with boys. because they're shamed so much for. vulnerability. If we don't allow. ourselves to embrace our limitations and. to realize that nobody is without. limitations and I'm allowed to have. limitations, we will forever be. predatorial. What that means is that. because we don't accept our weakness, because we don't accept our jagged edges. and our holes and we're trying to cover.

it up with bravado, right? We bully ourselves out of our own. weaknesses. We we we stampede ourselves. Don't have a weakness. Don't cry. Don't. feel. That's what creates the bully, right? Because we're bullying ourselves. We're so busy bullying ourselves. Of. course, we will bully the other. We so. objectify ourselves. Boys take all those. feelings that culture has called being. like a girl, being soft, being like a. wimp, and taken all those feelings and.

he has bullied himself out of feeling. He has so objectified himself and we. don't think of boys as objectifying. themselves. We think of girls as. objectifying but boys are objectified. out of that. So they treat their. feelings as something they can just. shove away as if it was an object. >> And in doing that they see other. people's feelings especially the weak, the helpless, the lost, the poor as. weak, the part in them that they've. shoved away. And so they bully those as. well. Who they can bully they will bully.

because they've bullied themselves out. of feeling. So vulnerability, allowing. your children to be vulnerable is. allowing them to feel. And if you keep a. boy close to his heart, >> he will grow up to be the protector our. women and children need. >> That makes sense, right, Jen? >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Absolutely. Yes. I'm so excited to read. this book. It just like everyone else, it resonates so much. >> Yeah, it's going to resonate. Lots of. ahas in there. Thank you, Jen, for. talking to us. >> Thank you. uh you believe it's it's.

vital to raise as we talking boys with. empathy and how do we do that? >> Well, it comes from keeping their. gateway to their real life emotions. alive, unshamed and unsuppressed. When. we are empathic with ourselves, we will. have empathy for others. So the. mutations we see out in the world that. we call toxic masculinity are men who. have been also sacrificed by their.

parents and taught to not have empathy. So they did not just become those toxic. men. They were raised, they were. trained, they learned. And this is why I. speak to parents because if we want to. interrupt that pipeline from lost boy to. predatory men, we need to teach empathy. And they don't even need to learn. empathy. The way to teach empathy is. keep them in their feelings. Allow them. to have their feelings. Don't raise them. to be happy. Don't raise them to be. successful. Don't raise them to be. strong. Allow them to experience their.

real life emotions. >> You talked to boys and girls and their. parents all the time. And you said you. interviewed over 50 boys for this book. What do they tell you they want? What. are they looking for? >> You know, they are so lost and they. don't have the language, right? So it's. hard for them. But what they will. express is exhaustion, >> the pressure of needing to be a man, but. not knowing. >> what that even is, >> even an iota what that could mean. They.

know what not to be. So they're told to. their their feelings are taught to them. as weakness. And then they've been given. a caricature of manhood from the. manosphere. These men who teach them to. resent women. So they they're taught. about the negatives, but they're not. given a clear blueprint. So they're. lost, they're confused, they're. exhausted already by 14. They feel the. pressure of how am I going to go out. into this world where I'm soon going to. be told I'm useless because technology. is taking away my function. And when. boys are without purpose, without use.

with where they cannot see with clarity. how they are competent, how they are. serving and contributing, that is when. it becomes perverted. Do the boys you. talk to uh feel under attack uh by uh. the culture? Do they feel pressured and. under attack by the culture? >> Well, I think in in some ways that's a. good thing because the me too movement. has kept them in check and told them you. cannot get your way with your impulses. anymore. You need you can be in your.

instincts but you have to be careful. about these wild impulses and they have. now been checked. That is a good thing. But in that checking, we did not replace. it with the road map to how to be a. healthy conscious male. We've not given. them that. >> And we certainly haven't made the. distinction between your instincts and. your impulses. So let's let's talk about. sex. You say the culture has made sex, especially male sexuality, a dirty. thing. Here's the cultural failure. Most. boys pass through adolescence without a.

single initiation into the power, the. responsibility and sexuality that is. awakening inside them. I mean they are. not. So how can parents talk to their. sons about sex? So, if there was one. core message that I think is the. absolute takeaway from this book is male. sexuality and how our boys entered their. manhood in terms of their sexual. awakening without a peep. Oprah, I asked.

most of the boys, did anyone tell you. about your first nocturnal emission? Did. anyone mark it for you? Did anyone tell. you it's going to happen? And they all. said no. Nobody. So it's no wonder they. will go to the locker room or to the. online sites or to to be initiated. You. see females we when we menstruate. there's blood so there has to be some. conversation around it but what happens. with boys happens in the silence of the. night and it stays in the silence of the.

night under the. >> I love that you call it nocturnal. emissions. Okay. [laughter] Yeah. Okay. >> So so no one is telling them and some. boys have told me that they thought they. were dying. I remember when I got my. period and I didn't know. I thought I. was dying or I had a disease. So, you. see when it stays in the secret of the. night, right? The the mother comes the. next morning, sees the dirty bed sheets, she see she sees the socks, she doesn't. say a word. >> She tells the father about it, he. doesn't say a word. And the nobody says.

a word. >> Nobody says a word. So, he goes to. >> So, he goes online. No wonder he then. goes to these rights of passages which. are toxic and gamified rather than real. life rights of passage. >> And then you write about how profoundly. unprepared. >> Yes. uh young men and boys are to handle. female rejection. >> because I I was talking about this with. with with Galloway recently about boys. are because they watch so much. >> and want to speak to that. >> and if if you watch you should just.

watch it just to understand what our. children are watching don't be hidden. under a rock right parents tell me oh I. don't watch I go you don't have to watch. for you I'm telling you to watch to. understand what your children are. exposed to by the age of 9 and 11 your. boys have watched. So you need to be prepared to have. conversations with them. And this is not. about sanctimony or morality. This is. about reality. So um in women are always. turned on. >> They're always willing. >> They're always ready.

>> Move me anybody says no in a video. >> and they are orgasmic and they're. exalting and they are loving and. worshiping the male body and he can do. whatever he wants. It's so easy. There's. no foreplay. There's no messy. conversation. There's no does she like. me? there's no reading of signs and. attuning to whether she's rejecting me. or so he's not understanding that there. is such a thing. He they think the penis. can just go into the vagina. These are. open gateways and caves and women and. and women are waiting. So then when they. get rejected, can you imagine what it.

does to their ego? >> Yeah. >> They think the woman is mean on purpose. They take it personally. They don't. understand that she's being sovereign. >> I feel like the kid in adolescence. >> Yes. like the kid in adolescence which. really sparked my whole desire to write. these books with a jolt because that boy. has been trained by the man. >> that's adolescence is what we're talking. about. >> Yes. So he got so rejected by that girl. he couldn't imagine why she would reject. him. So he thought it was personal it. was a personal attack and therefore it. required a personal vengeance which is.

why he killed her. He did not understand. that she's a sovereign being that she. just and she he did not understand that. just because he has desire that doesn't. mean he gets to activate and manifest. the desire. >> but teaches you the opposite. >> teaches you you have desire you have an. outlet it's an immediate thing so that. all those messy. >> I don't think so many I don't think a. lot of parents even realize how uh how. influenced their young boys. >> they and they think that their boys are. not watching what are they doing behind.

the closed doors 14 hours during the. weekend. >> Yeah. >> If not looking at every hour. So now. these platforms have allowed free access. to. >> and it's also why so many young boys. aren't dating and they've never asked as. a person asked a real person out to. date. >> It's too difficult. We we we women are. not just going to take any guy now. They. have to step up. >> Yep. >> So it's different. >> Okay. I I I have to get to this because. we could talk for days about this book. I know. I just want to encourage every.

single person who has a son. You're. raising a boy. You know somebody who is. this is the perfect gift for them. Raising conscious sons. You're right. When a boy has no place to direct his. energy, no one who needs him, no context. in which he feels seen and shaped. His. system doesn't rest. It inflames and. burns. His purpose erodess. His. motivation drains away and what is left.

is deep agitation, numbness or rage. And. you believe isolation is slowly. extinguishing the spirit of young boys. What can we do about this isolation? >> And because they don't talk about it, you know, we girls will show it. We. women will show it in some way. We'll. cry. We'll show it in our bodies. We'll. express it. But there's hides behind. stoicism. I'm okay. I'm fine. I don't. know. So, we look at it as, "Oh, that's. an independent boy. Look how independent.

my boy is. He doesn't need me. My. daughter's 23. She will still come into. my bed, still hug me, still kiss me, still demand I say I love you back." But. I hear from my friends who are mothers. of boys. There's no contact. And we. exalt it as the independent male, the. stoic male. But we don't realize that is. a withering boy inside. And I call this. book raising conscious sons and not boys. because there is a son inside every. adult man looking for mentorship. Oh.

that is a beautiful thing to say. A boy. who does not feel emotionally safe will. not develop resilience. He will develop. armor. >> Yes. >> He will learn to numb rather than feel. Deflect rather than process. Dominate. rather than relate. What makes a boy. feel safe. >> when we when they're very young allow. their fire to be intense and big and. chaotic and and information. and since they are two and three we are.

telling them to sh be quiet sit down. talk sit still be in a chair it is. anti-boyhood. and that's what we're doing from a young. age so he begins to learn early that. he's defective his deviance is a. and his dis his hisa chaos is seen as. disrespect when it is only. disregulation. >> So we are failing our boys and then we. end up with the toxic masculinity. >> And so you say you were inspired to do. this after watching adolescence and you.

did this so quickly because you could. feel the urgency that's needed in this. moment in time. >> Yes. And I knew it needed to come out. fast. And I got the publishers on a fast. timeline. And I knew I needed to write. two books. And they couldn't be in one. book because boys and girls have. different developmental trajectories, different hormonal landscapes. And. culture exploits them in very precise. different ways, different fault lines. And if we don't intervene precisely, we.

will lose the plot. Well, I think you. have done exactly what you have come to. the planet to do because you feel the. sense of urgency and you also feel it. with the parents who say they're. drowning and they don't know what to do. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And parents want to do well by. their children. We have to look at each. other as each of us wanting to do the. best but we don't know how. So this book. is that road map. I just didn't leave. parents feeling anxious. I gave them the. tools and the strategies. I broke it.

down and you may be a mother or a father. who sees their boy more in the girls. book in some chapters. I see a lot of. Maya in this book. So, you need to read. both as a continued conversation. These. are not binaries. These are not. manifestos of gender determinism. These. are really a continued conversation and. a cultural reckoning as to what our. children need as whole humans in today's. digital era. Well, I just want to say to.

everybody who's listening to us right. now, if you want to be a more evolved, conscious parent, and you want a better. life for yourself, your family, and you. really want the best life for your son, you need to read this book. Thank you, Dr. Shafali. Raising conscious sons, cultivating purpose, connection, and. inner power in a chaotic world. Thank. you to Nicole and Sandra and Jen for. your parenting questions and thank you. all for watching and listening. We'll. see you later this week for Raising.

Conscious Daughters. Go well. And thank. you to our friends at Geico for. presenting today's episode. Dr. Shafali. has [music] two new books, raising. conscious sons and raising conscious. daughters. And yes, as Dr. Shafali says, raising a son versus a daughter are. different [music] experiences. Both. books are available on September 15th. You can pre-order your copies right now. by scanning the QR [music] code on your. screen. The books are both thoughtful. They're practical guides for raising. emotionally secure and [music] resilient.

boys and girls while also navigating the. complexities of today's world. I can't. recommend them enough. I know for sure. that these books are going to inspire. [music] some meaningful conversations. with you as a parent and with your. friends and families. our listeners tell. us [music] that the podcast is. resonating with you and is serving as a. bright spot in your day. That means a. lot [music] to me. So, here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like. and subscribe [music] to the Oprah. podcast on YouTube or wherever you.

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