She Escaped the Unthinkable and Chose Her Own Beginning

When you were awarded the Nobel Peace. Prize in 2018, they cited your refusal. to remain silent. I didn't share my story for awards and. stuff. I shared it so the world could. act and also brought much more attention. on uh conflict related sexual violence. >> My thanks to Amal Clooney for joining. us. ISIS had raped and abused women and. girls like Nadia on a scale that we have.

not seen in this century. She always. said, "I don't want revenge. What I care. about is justice.". Hi there. I'm so grateful you're joining. me here on the Oprah podcast. My guest. today is a living testimony to the just. extraordinary resilience of the human. spirit and one of the people I admire. most on this planet. She's a Nobel Peace. Prize laurate and human rights activist.

Nadia Mirod first shared her harrowing. story in her New York Times best-selling. memoir, The Last Girl, My Story of. Captivity and My Fight Against the. Islamic State. And in that she showed us. what it means to survive the unthinkable. and what it means to find actually. inside yourself the courage to start. speaking up for yourself and and and. using your voice for others whose voices.

were silenced. And and now she's written. another book and I I just really um have. great respect and high regard for the. title. It's called I choose my. beginning. I choose my beginning. It's a. story of once again courage but also. real activism. She picks up where the. last girl left off and she shares how. she was able to turn her pain into. strength and how she was able to turn.

her pain into a sense of perseverance. and the freedom to choose her beginning. and to choose happiness. Let's listen to. her story. In 2014, Nadia Murad was 21 years old, the youngest of 11 children, living with. her family in Coocho, a small village in. northern Iraq. She dreamed of being a. history teacher by day and opening a. beauty salon at night. She hoped to. build a life close to the people in the.

place she loved. Then ISIS attacked. Nadia is Yazidi, a religious and ethnic. minority that was targeted in a campaign. of genocide. Nearly 600 men and elderly. women in her village were killed. Younger women and girls were kidnapped. and imprisoned to be used as sexual. slaves.

After three weeks of daily torture and. rape as a captive, Nadia escaped through. the help of a neighboring family. You can read in depth about that. harrowing tale in her first book she. called The Last Girl. After her freedom, Nadia could have. chosen to live quietly. Instead, she. spoke out, becoming a powerful voice for. survivors around the world. In her new book, I choose my beginning,

Nadia writes about what comes after. survival and what it means to build a. life beyond what happens to you. >> So, welcome Nadia. >> Thank you for being here. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, you've said that your first book, The Last Girl, >> was written from a place of trauma. How. is writing this book different? I choose. my beginning. >> Well, my first book was more of like,

you know, my testimony of what happened. to me in ICE captivity and what happened. to my family members who were taken into. captivity with me. And um with that. book, I really wanted the world to know. that and to see rape for what it is, a. weapon of war and not just a small side. effect of war. uh because for for so. long they have seen it as just a small. thing. But what I saw and what I. experienced was um they they used rape.

as a weapon of war to destroy us, to. destroy our families and communities. And I wanted to share that with the. world so that hopefully uh we can. prevent it from happening again to other. uh women and girls. And that's why I uh. titled that one as the last girl because. I wanted to be the last girl in the. world with a story like mine. >> Yeah. Unfortunately, you were not. >> No. >> But you continue to use your voice. >> Exactly.

>> To help all the girls who continue to. have the same experience. So the late. great Gloria Steinum writes this in the. forward of I choose my beginning. She. says Nadia is a survivor of genocide. Her life reminds us that such crimes are. never accidental. They are designed, organized and sustained through this. systematic dehumanization of others.

Survival in such circumstances is not. only an act of endurance but an act of. resistance. What distinguishes Nadia. is what she chose to do next. She did. not allow her story to remain only her. own. You could have easily chosen to live the. rest of your life quietly. You could. have avoiding any kind of further. threat. So why did you choose to speak. out, Nadia? >> Because someone had to speak up.

>> Um and after I escaped cap captivity, I. was in the one of the displacement camps. in northern Iraq. But then I uh moved to. Germany with my sister. And in Germany, I had this new opportunity to build a. new life. You know, people didn't know. that I was a survivor of rape. My. neighbors were different. The culture. was different. But I feel that my. survival, you know, carried with it a. responsibility to tell the world what.

was happening to so many women and girls. who didn't survive. And then uh one of. the things that I I was so struck by you. write in telling my story on page 175. Some days I feel proud to be able to. tell my story. Other days I hate myself. for sharing it. Or I'll change my mind. even faster than that. I'll wake up in. the morning feeling proud. I spend the. day talking to journalists or. politicians and go to bed angry at.

myself for opening up, for still living. it, for still being there in the past. Survival isn't the same as finding. peace. It's an ongoing negotiation. with memory. Do you find that still? And. I hope you're proud to tell your story. today. Yes, >> I mean I I am proud and especially after. I found myself that I am a part of a. bigger community, a global community of. survivors of rape, women, men and and.

children from all around the world from. different conflicts and I I feel more. connected with you know that community. that I'm I'm not alone and a lot of them. have shared their stories before me. So. having that community, having you know. other women and girls and and men have. shared their story, it made it a little. bit easier. But you know, it's like it's. like a wound. People keep asking you to. go and and and open that wound and it it.

never heals if you go back and and keep. opening it. And and for years I had to. do that just you know sometimes I'll. give my story five times a day. >> to people and it was always the same. questions what happened and. >> what did they do to you? Yeah. So, you're ret-raumatizing yourself every. time. >> Traumatizing over and over again. And. and it was not just, you know, what was. needed to rescue other women and and.

girls, what was needed to prevent this. from happening. And I feel like I shared. my story to give that to say that this. is how we can prevent it. This is what. is happening. But they will ask. different questions. And I thought as a. survivor of rape, my responsibility was. to always say yes and to always tell. what they wanted. >> Every time anybody asked and and and one. of the things you talk about and I. choose my beginning is that you and your. fellow sisters and women in the. community didn't know the difference.

between a journalist or. >> um no aid worker, journalists, people. will come. >> Anytime anybody asks you to tell the. story, you're just telling the story in. the hopes that it would help. Exactly. >> Did it. >> Well, the the very. reason I shared my story was to to. rescue my niece was my my best friend. Yeah. Katherine was my best friend. We. grew up in the same house and we were. taken into captivity. >> So, you thought you were making people. aware.

>> Yes. Yes. >> Uh because I I survived early, but I I. knew what she was going through. Yeah. and she found a phone in captivity and. she kept sharing her story from. >> every time she used that phone. I was. frightened for her. I don't even know. how she did it. >> Yeah. But but she was the reason and I. kept telling the world. I showed her. messages and voice messages, photos to. the world. And and I I I failed her. She. at the very end she decided that she. couldn't take take it anymore. The rape,

the buying, the selling and and what. they were doing to her. So she decided. to walk. >> to safety. >> and um and then she stepped. >> she stepped on the line man. She was so. close. >> She she she. >> she had endured so much. >> The woman the other survivor that. survived who was also with her. She she. said we we actually could see lights. that they were like walking toward the. lights. >> Sorry. >> Mhm. Take your time.

You write about it. so poignantly, so. graphically, and. >> so that by the time this happened as a. reader in the story because I read the. last girl and so. I I knew about Katherine and you pick up. the story and Katherine is still in. captivity when you start I choose my. beginning. And so I was like everyone. else hoping that she would finally find.

a way to escape or to get free. And then. in the last moment and I mean at by this. time how many years had passed that. she'd been in captivity being raped on a. regular basis traffic? >> Almost two years. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And um. >> and she documented her. >> but she was still communicating with. everyone in the family with that stolen. phone. >> Yeah. and she watched me on TV. She send. me voice messages. I have them. And she. says that. >> you speak so well. Please keep telling.

them what they're doing to us. And. >> and she even at one point ISIS members. took a video and show it to her and they. told her that, "Oh, we actually do look. alike because we have the same tattoos. We have, you know, same hair." And. >> and at one point she said, "Why you're. so sad? why you're so thin, why you're. not happy? Um because she thought. >> you're out, you're free. >> Yeah. She she thought that,

>> you know, the second you survive. captivity, you're free. You should be. happy. But. >> survival is is never the end of of the. story. Um it was just the very first. step that I took. >> It's what you were saying, it's a. negotiation with memory all the time. >> Yeah. It doesn't bring you peace. And so. when you were awarded the Nobel Peace. Prize in 2018, when you were only 25, you became the first Iraqi citizen and. the second youngest person to be awarded.

the Nobel Peace Prize. Malala was the. youngest when she was 17. The uh. committee awarded you the Nobel Prize. and they said your efforts to end the. use of sexual violence as a weapon of. war. >> and armed conflict. They also cited your. refusal to remain silent and ashamed. What did that mean to you? Did you feel. that once you got the Nobel Peace Prize.

that is the the attention that you. wanted to bring to all of the other. women who were held in captivity? >> You know, before 2014, I never even heard of the Nobel Peace. Prize. Uh but you know when uh they uh. gave it to me I. I it it was you know such an honor to. yeah to to know and to. >> I I thought of all the people who have.

received it before me like Nelson. Mandela and I. >> I felt you know honored but it's it's. >> you received it along with. >> uh Dr. Dennis McQue and my dear friend. and uh it it was important because well. first when I shared my story I didn't. know about it I I didn't share my story. for awards and stuff I shared it so the. world could. >> you know prevent this and and act and. >> and then it also uh brought much more. attention on uh conflict related sexual.

violence. It also connected what. happened to women in Iraq to women in. the DRC, in Sudan, in in you know uh. Kosovo, Colombia. And I feel like it. was, you know, many more women and girls. were recognized was not just me and the. work of Dr. Dennis McQueen, but I think. the world often sees that when you. receive the Nobel, you've got it all. You have the power to change things and.

and make things better. But it's not. like that. It's a recognition. It does. amplifies your message, open doors. But. the issues that I'm I'm, you know, fighting for and working to, you know, with other people like Dr. Dennis McQue, not no one award or one person will be. able to solve them. >> Right. And you know, one of the things. that I really appreciated that you. brought to light in I choose my. beginning is not just the world's.

perception, but even journalist. perception. The way journalists drive. the perception of what it means to have. been a refugee or what it means to have. been trafficked or what it means to be a. woman who, you know, has survived the. atrocities that you have. And you say. they thought because the world had. taught them this that being a survivor. meant all you had was your sadness and. your story. They had the connections and.

the military and political knowledge. All I had was the ability to make people. cry. >> And I was the window dressing and they. were the substance. And it wasn't only. men who treated survivors this way. Women at the helm of loosely defined aid. organizations also required survivors to. look a certain way, say certain things, and appear grateful as they had told my. friend who dared to dye her hair before. an appearance. Let's speak about that. for a moment. that once you were able to.

escape, and we're not going to talk. about how you escape, but once you were. able to escape these atrocities and then. use your voice for those who were. voiceless, there was a kind of window. dressing as you describe it, put upon. you a certain way to act and to behave. and even dress when you appeared at the. UN. Like you can't wear a pretty dress, you should be dressed in black and. things that are not fitting. Let's talk. about that. Yes, it was.

not what I expected. >> because you know. >> I wanted to share my story but of course. I I didn't want them to see me for what. just had happened to me and I the moment. I share the story the moment those I you. know uh organizations. some journalists not all I also talk. about the good experiences we doing like. you know the 60 minutes and others. But then they, you know, it it was.

everything I did, you know, I had to. wear always, you know, they said if you. represent this story and this cause, you. have to always wear black, dark, you. know, colors, you cannot. And and I I. grew up loving makeup and hair and I. wanted to open a beauty salon, but I was. not allowed to wear uh makeup. I. remember first time I wore jeans in. Germany to the language uh course, someone sent a photo of me to my brother. in the camps and he called me and he was.

so mad. He said, "You've already, you. know, you're doing something you can't. be both." Uh because that's what was he. hearing from people. But then if we were. so thin, they will say, "Okay, she. cannot get over what happened to her.". If we were fit, they were saying, "Oh, she's already over what happened to. her." Mhm. >> Um, falling in love was not an option. Getting married was not an option. Having children was not an option. Smiling meant you get over what happened. to you. And then I I lost myself. >> cuz people expected you to not to ever.

have a life again. >> To be that very perfect victim. >> And that's why it's called I choose my. beginning. You know, one of the things. that struck me. >> but I did to be honest. I did follow. what they. >> in the beginning. Yeah. It took you a. while to Yeah. to to to be able to write. this second book because everyone had an. expectation. Now you you are a survivor. You're the spokesperson for us all. You. must behave and you must act in a. certain way and you must not have a life. beyond what we think your life should. be. You know, one of the things that.

surprised me so much, and as a person. who, you know, has has also lived. through the vitriol of people saying. things about you online that are not. true, it did not occur to me that it had. started so soon that even in 2014, 2016, people online often accused you of. fabricating your truth, including saying. that you had lied about your mother's. death. Yeah. And you write on page 113. something so powerful. You say if my.

mother is alive, that's really all I. need in the world. I said, I would. celebrate until the day I died. But I. know that she is not. My sister saw it. I would have given anything to be wrong. For Demol's eyes to have failed her. For. ISIS's plans to be different, and for my. mother to show up one day at the camp. wrapped in her white scarf, alive and. ready to lead our family again. I would. have traded everything you say to be the. liar that these critics on Facebook.

accuse me of being. But to the people. who were focused only on using me to. send a message that would be the end of. their campaign. If your mother isn't. dead, then what do you have? They were. asking. And you thought I would have a. mother. >> Yeah. >> It's fascinating to me that the takeown. cutter came with with the lies and. stories in the face of your truth. Were. you surprised by that kind of vitrial? >> Not really because I grew up in a. culture in a country where women were. always like accused of of doing things.

like if a woman wanted to get a divorce. because she was living in an abusive. relationship. They will always come up. with stories that she is you know doing. it for another reason. Yeah. So it was. >> you know they said that I never went to. school but I went to school and and uh. they saw that I went to high school. actually. But when you know that your. mother has been killed as a part of a. genocide and that your sister saw it. >> and you I mean nothing could be more.

horrific and then for people to tell you. oh your mother isn't her mother isn't. even dead. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. She's making that up. >> Yeah. And it it was even harder because. they kept uh reaching out to my. sisters-in-law and you know through fake. social media accounts and telling them. all these stories and uh my. sister-in-laws were like they they will. call me and they say people you know. talking about your mother like this you. have to stop doing this work. It's you.

know uh they they see that you are not. the best to do this work. And I I said, well, my. >> first they thought you were the best and. then they say you're not the best. You. know what? One of the reasons I say that. you are one of the women I admire most. in the world, not because of the Nobel. Peace Prize. That's a wonderful thing. But I also understand that getting an. award doesn't define who you are nor. change who you are. But. the courage,

just the courage. that it took for you. to tell the truth about what had. happened to you in a culture. >> Yeah. >> that sees where in a culture where I. think it was your own cousin. >> who had been killed for leaving home. >> to be with another man. Yep. >> The man is set free and goes back to his. wife. Your cousin is murdered.

>> So for you as a young girl to have been. trafficked and abused and tortured and. then to have the courage to say out. loud, this is what happened to me. That. where did that come from? >> You know, I had to do it. I just I just. saw something and I experienced. something and I couldn't feel that I you. know I was free or silent but I I didn't.

feel free. I was in Germany and I was. always looking over my shoulder. I felt. like. >> they were coming after you. >> Yeah. And then I was always having, you. know, these dreams, but I was also. always like constantly getting these. messages from Katherine telling me that. she's been sold again, that she's been. raped again, that she's been exchanged. with, you know, another survival victim. back then in captivity. And I I I wanted. to do what my sisters did. My sisters.

chose not to share their stories. They. wanted to rebuild their lives. And and. sometimes I feel that they made the. right decision because people didn't. tell them that they should be the. perfect victims to, you know, dress a. certain way, to do certain things. They. were I feel like they were rebuilding. their lives faster than me. And they. were and I'm the youngest, you know, I. was the youngest of 11 children. I was. so loved in in my family by my siblings. And they feel so sorry for me that I was.

going through all of it. But I just. every day that I didn't share my story, I felt that I was I didn't have purpose. >> As as horrible as this story was, as. hard as it was to share it, it also. saved me from my own. >> Well, you also met human rights lawyer. and law professor uh Amal Clooney in. 2016 and that turned out to be a. gamecher. You say it was the first time.

you were able to actually see a path to. survivors to receive justice in a. courtroom because up until then you felt. like you were just being used and passed. from telling your story to one person. and another person and it didn't matter. that you were telling the story. >> No. >> And then along comes Amal. >> Amal joins us. Hello. Thank you for. being here. >> Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Uh. so I heard it was 10 years ago that a.

colleague actually persuaded you uh to. meet Nadia for just one hour. What were. your first impressions of her then? >> Um oh I remember the meeting so well. I. was uh at home in London and I remember. saying to my husband, you know, this. woman's coming over. Um it's supposed to. be for a new case. And he was like, you. don't have time for a new case. And I. said, I know. I'm just going to hear her. out and I'll refer someone to help her.

Um, and then Nadia walked in. She she. was incredibly shy. Um, I remember she. she didn't really make eye contact. She. didn't speak English. So, we had an. interpreter. Um, and she started telling. me about the horrors that she had just. escaped from, losing six of her brothers. in one day and her mother and and being. in captivity and the the torture um that. she had to experience. And you know, maybe 2 hours later, I remember George.

walking past the living room and he just. caught sight of me and Nadia sitting on. the floor, I think, holding hands and he. just looked at me knowing that I'm. taking the case. and. >> it was 10 years ago and I'm still. working on it. >> And you've been working together to seek. justice for Yasidi women and you've. succeeded actually in the first three. cases where ISIS members have been. convicted of genocide. What did what did. this mean succeeding in those cases?

What did that mean for survivors? >> I mean, I think Niga would agree it was. against the odds and it shouldn't have. been. This should have been the easiest. case I've ever taken on. We went to the. UN Security Council. We went to world. leaders and said, you know, are there. crimes that are more gruesome than this? This is genocide. Are there victims that. are more worthy than this? You know, is. this a perpetrator group anyone cares to. protect? It's ISIS, the most reviled and. dangerous terror group in the world. And. yet, we didn't get any kind of.

institutional action. There was no. global response beyond the battlefield. uh there was no initiative uh to ensure. that there could be trials of ISIS. fighters um including those who had. raped and abused women and girls like. Nadia on a scale that we have not seen. in this century and it should have been. an easy case and it wasn't and I have to. say from the beginning you know Nadia. showed this this grit and this. determination you know she was fearless.

from that first day even when she. couldn't speak English yet she was. showing. messages on her phone from her niece in. captivity from from ISIS and she always. said I don't want revenge. What I care. about is justice and to have the chance. to face my abusers in a court of law. Um. she had an opportunity. >> could you even believe. >> she showed the first day I met her she. had messages on WhatsApp and I was. telling her Nadia this is evidence like. you are receiving messages from the.

perpetrators. um of these crimes. It's the first piece. of evidence I collected and I went on to. collect, you know, hundreds of of. statements from from survivors who had. endured um things similar to to Nadia. and her family. And I I didn't know if. we were going to succeed, but I saw an. opportunity in European countries that. recognize a principle called universal. jurisdiction, which means certain crimes. are so heinous, you know, genocide, war. crimes, crimes against humanity, that.

you can prosecute them in your country's. courts, even if they took place abroad. Um, and so we started working very. closely with prosecutors in Germany and. across Europe, connecting them with the. evidence that we' gathered, connecting. them with witnesses. Um and the very. first trial in which we succeeded um in. securing a conviction of an ISIS. fighter, I actually represented Nadia's. cousin. Um she she talks about this in. the book. Um. >> I think we we call her Huda in the book. It's not her real name, you know, to.

protect her identity. >> And it was incredible. Huda was had no. education. Um she, you know, Nadia says. in the book she'd never heard of the. word court. She didn't know what a court. was, but she had been taken into. captivity with her daughter. Um, she had. to watch her captor. >> kill her daughter before her eyes um. >> in in a gruesome way and she had to. watch it and wasn't. >> this is when he left her outside in to.

in the heat. >> So this she was a five So Nadia's cousin. had a 5-year-old daughter. She was. chained to the bars along a window. >> and left outside. >> and left to hang in the in the heat of. the summer in Fallujah and eventually. died um of dehydration. And. >> I mean, you know, as a mother, it's just. unimaginable what she had gone through. Um and and then one day she hears that. the perpetrator has been caught and he's. in Europe and you know, would she be.

willing to go and give ev evidence in. the case? and she said yes, you know, to. honor her daughter's memory to to to to. do it for her community. Um, and she put. herself in a witness protection program. She went to a country that she didn't. know. Um, she gave evidence in a court. over seven days, um, in a, you know, with an interpreter and in a courtroom. where she had to stare down the man who. held her captive. >> Um, and, you know, she became the first. Yazidi ISIS victim to to face her.

capture in a court of law. And when the. day of the verdict came, it was. incredible. Um, the judge uh announced a. conviction for genocide. In that moment, the perpetrator, the ISIS fighter who'd. enslaved Nadia's cousin collapsed on the. floor and she stood tall and strong. And. in that moment, you could just see the. power of justice. It had reversed the. roles. You know, she stood tall and and. he was on the floor. um and he got a.

life sentence and that was our first uh. victory in court. >> I know Nadia reveals that story with. such poignency in uh I choose my. beginning because he had a wife who also. was a part of that. >> Yeah. >> A German wife. She was put on trial. first and then and then he was he was. Iraqi and you know subsequent to that I. represented other Yazidi victims in. trials that led to I think it was six.

other cases where we got convictions as. well not only genocide but crimes. against humanity and war crimes and you. know for us that was a huge success at. the same time it's a massive failure. because you know tens of thousands of. ISIS fighters left Europe to to go and. fight this war in Syria and Iraq and. there should have I mean, I remember. Nadia telling me, you know, my worst. fear is that these people will just. shave off their beards and go back to. their normal life in a way that the. victims never can. And I I think in the. book she she talks about the.

interminable weight for justice and. accountability being an open wound. And. it and it is a wound. It's like another. type of trauma after the crimes if. people deny them and if there's. impunity. And unfortunately, you know, most of the time we're living in an age. of impunity at the moment. and we. created an exception in these cases. Um, but but the system is is incredibly. broken. >> Nadia writes this about you, Amal on. page 185. From Amal, I learned that. talking to survivors didn't require.

asking them to relive the worst moments. of their lives. Everyone was able to. approach us with respect and. sensitivity. And survivors had the right. to say no to anyone who asked for their. stories. I'm wondering. was that a learned skill for how to get. the information that you need that is. going to be evidence for you and yet not. retraumatize the person you're trying to.

get the information from. >> I have to say when I read the book I I. was really touched by that. It's not. something we'd ever discussed. Um, and I. was actually horrified that it was. something that was so rare in her. experience. Um, you know, of course, we. we learn how to do interview as lawyers. You get special training for these kinds. of cases, but but really this is just. it's just respect for someone. Um, that. you only ask what you need to and it.

was, you know, I remember when we did a. we did a really detailed statement, it. was only once we knew there was a case. coming up. Um before that I didn't need. to know some details and even with her. cousin there are some details that I've. never asked her about what happened to. herself as opposed to. >> to her daughter. Um so it should be. obvious. Um but but I think Nadia's. experience is that actually it was quite. rare for people to to deal with her that. way and that's really unfortunate. >> What do you want to say about Amal and. her work? Well, Amal is special.

>> because just like what you you know what. you read from the book, but it it was. just so easy to open up to her. >> And I love the way she just treats. survivors as humans first, you know, and. not just stories. And for me, it was a. very different experience. I felt for. the first time that someone was, you. know, actually asking me questions to do. something and not just to put it out.

there for uh for the world. So, it's um. her work I I have I learned so much from. her. I keep learning from her. She's an. amazing person to be around and uh she. she just inspires me. I just read that. you were in Malawi. recently for the Clooney Foundation and. I was reading about what you all are. doing with legal scholarships for women. Amal who will become advocates for human.

rights for other people. Yeah. Like. starting a scholarship program just for. women to become lawyers to do what. you're doing in the world. I just wanted. to say bravo to to you for that. And do. you have a lot of takers for that? >> I did. I literally stood in a field um. in one school after another and told. girls about their rights and told them. they couldn't be married before they're. 18 no matter what anyone says. Um and I. spoke to so many of them who said I. didn't know those were my rights. And.

then I said how, you know, does anyone. here want to be a lawyer? And lots of. hands went up. And so I went to the top. law school in the country and you know. we're helping them with actually AI. tools um and and also creating 30. scholarships for young girls uh to go to. law school. So I I'm really excited to. see all of their progress. It's it's an. incredible country with so much. potential but such great harms affecting. women and girls and we're trying to. connect them to a justice system that. can actually deliver remedies. Um but. you know there's less than a thousand.

lawyers in the entire country. So, >> uh, I'm trying to get more girls into, you know, into the justice system and. and help lawyers, uh, use technology to. be more efficient, uh, in in helping. >> Well, thank you for that work. Thank you. for being with us, Amal. Thank you, Amal. Clooney. >> Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Maybe you're feeling it, too. With so. many ways to reach each other, it can be. easy to mistake being reachable for. being truly connected. But I've learned.

that what many people are longing for is. just to be heard, truly heard by another. person. That's what we're trying to do. here on the Oprah podcast. I see you. contemplating and I can see that you're. seeing yourself a different way after he. said that. Making space for real. connection. Because every time we stop. and actually listen to each other, something shifts, something opens. AT&T. believes that, too. The right connection.

at the right moment between the right. people can change the course of a day, a. relationship, and even a whole life. So. the next time you reach for your phone. to call someone you love, know that AT&T. is with you. Keeping that connection. strong because AT&T is there when the. connection matters. And connecting. changes everything.

So, one of the things that I also really. appreciated you sharing in the book is. when you were living in the the refugee. camp, you write on page 92, you say, "Sometimes we pass things that were. familiar enough to remind us that we. were actually still on Earth. The sun. rose and set. Families sat together. eating and talking the way we used to in. Iraq. The pleasures of walking, riding a. bicycle, studying outside, talking to.

your friends. These are universal. That's what refugees are looking for, I. think. Not big things, but small moments. and scenes that remind them of where. they're from and tell them that they. will survive in this new place. And you. say, "One evening we passed a sign for a. market with the word halal written in. Arabic, and that made us smile.". >> I love this passage because it's just a.

it's a it's a beautiful reminder, I. think, that we all actually want the. same things no matter what our. circumstances. And after you achieved. your freedom escaping, what were the. things that you appreciated the most? Well, every time someone was kind to me, >> uh it was it just made me feel that like. I I would smile and and it was like, okay, there is still goodness in the. world and that people were there are.

kind people. We just need to find them. and surround ourselves with them. And um. I love just you know looking at the sky. um yeah every day because. >> because when you were in captivity you. couldn't see. >> No. No. But also uh I grew up in a small. village when you know half of the year. we uh slept on the rooftop uh to avoid. heat and it was you know where I have. the my favorite memories from my mother.

sharing stories on the rooftop and just. watching the sky and she would you know. the village was so small she would. always say but the sky is is huge and. you can see that the world is big and. you can dream big and uh so every every. day and especially Actually after I. survived just like looking at the sky. >> at the sky and then you dared fall in. love. Abid was your was one of your. interpreters at one point right? You. share the story of meeting and falling. in love with your husband and you write.

I will always remember something Aid. told me that year. >> You say when it became clear that our. love could survive even the most. shattering tragedy. He said you will. never have to go through any of this. alone. Did you even ever think that you could. fall in love, have a husband, go on with. your life? >> Um, no. I remember I went into a meeting. with rich American guy and he talked to.

me and he gave me his business card and. on the business card before meeting my. husband, he wrote, "Dear Onadia, if you. ever get married, please let me know. I. will pay for your wedding." And I smiled. and I kept the card and I said, "Well, I. I didn't know that I'm even allowed to. to get married or fall in love." And uh. when I. >> Why? Because being a woman who. >> I was Yeah. I was told that, you know, I. wanted to do the work more than. anything.

>> But I was told that you can't be both. You have to if you do the work, then. that is your life. Um, and even when I. met Abid, you know, my husband, I I. showed him a photo of my niece who lives. in Germany, and I said, "By the way, she's single." I was trying to, you. know, set them up. And I'm like, because. I didn't know that I can that you were. allowed. >> Yeah. That I was allowed. >> But he was different. You know, the. moment I I saw him, he said, "I'm sorry. for what other man did to you." And he.

was the first man. >> to Yeah. who who who would tell me that. who apologized for what his fellow man. did you know to me because it was true. it's you know what happened to me and my. family and all these women and girls. it's what you know man did you know this. to us and they keep doing it to us so. from that I I just felt that oh my god. like someone said that and um he just it. was easy to talk to him and I I told him.

that I just lost my niece and um. >> and once Once he asked you to marry him, even people in your family, your brother. whose opinions you valued, so. >> everybody said you can't get married. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was um there were so many. >> You must continue to be the survivor. >> Yeah. >> Who tells the sad story. Yeah. >> And if you go ahead and get married, then that means you've moved on. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> And that was the the best beginning I. chose. You know, I decided that I can be.

both. And with him I feel that the work. was easier. He cares. He listens. He's. loyal. I I trusted him and and he met me. when I was in a very you know difficult. time of my life. I told him how much I. hated myself. I told him that I. >> he made me feel that my life was worth. living it. M. >> uh and my family was like you know. people will go to them and they make up. these stories that if I do that I will. give up on the work that was hopefully.

going to rescue. >> people didn't want you to marry fall in. love have another life because they. thought that you would lose your passion. >> for the work as an activist. >> and what you did was prove to them and. the rest of the world but more. importantly to yourself. >> that you could do both. >> yes and I did that was the best thing. >> and the best thing. >> Yeah. >> Well, more than 2,000 Yidi women and. children abducted by ISIS are still. missing,

including some of your family. What do. you want to say. to the world about that? >> That. those are human beings and have they. have families who are waiting for them. like my family. We've been working, you. know, at my organization with families. We have names. We have their ages. We. know when was the last time they, you. know, uh, communicated with their loved. ones. But it's it's hard to, uh, convince the world to go and look for.

these women and children. >> The world doesn't seem to care. >> No. No. My niece was only 40 days old. when she was taken. And today she is 12. years old if she's alive, still missing. in captivity. My nephew was 11 years. old, and now he's 23 years old. uh my. sister-in-law was in her early 20s and. you know more than 40 members of my. family were taken into captivity. So. almost 12 13 years later we are still.

waiting for them and and families will. never give up even if the world does we. will never give up on them. As I was. preparing for my book a week ago, they. just Iraqi government released a list of. remains who have been identified and the. very first name was my brother [ __ ] So. after your interview, I go back to DC to. do something and then I go to the. funeral in Iraq. >> So it keeps happening. Uh because you.

know war is like that it you don't even. when the war ends. >> Mhm. >> There is so much more and and questions. that need to be answered remain. >> So they just found his. >> his remains you know finally been. identified. >> and they were able to identify them. >> Yeah. Yeah. Which is what closure means. to my you know his wife and his two. children. And uh but then you know my. mother's remain are still there. My.

Katherine's remains have not been found. Nina's remains have not been found. My. brother K so many cousins and friends. and um and I think that's what a lot of. people don't know about war. It's not. just, you know, when it happens and how. many people were killed and taken, but. what comes after it's even. harder because you just keep waiting and. waiting and um remains are, you know,

exumed, but then you have to keep DNA. and then you wait and some people never. get what they wait for. >> Yeah. And also from what you're. describing there there is no there is no. closure. No, >> there's no such thing as closure. People. saying, "Oh, you go back and you have. the funeral and you have closure." There. is no closure because then there's the. next funeral and then there's the next. waiting. >> Yeah. >> And you know, I. >> one mistake I made was when two of my. brothers were identified, I went back.

for the funeral. And. >> so the government gives you like a whole. file on how they found him, how they. were killed, and and everything about, you know, the remains. and and I read. them. Um I read the the two files and it. was one of the those you know big. mistakes that I made because they tell. you that they were alive for a while. You know they tell you that they were. shot in the head multiple times. They. tell you that you know how much of their.

bodies are now you know we have them. because they never give you the whole. thing. It's just can be like a little. bit of their body identified. Yeah. And. and I and then for for months I was just. like imagining them okay like this is. how they were killed and it was horrific. and I I promised myself that when my. mother's remain with Katherine's remains. with the rest of my brothers um I don't. want to do that because I want to. remember them for you know.

>> when they were alive. >> So you won't read the reports on how it. happened or. >> No not. >> not anymore. >> not anymore. you know, it's not healthy. for us. But yeah, that's but we still. call it closure because at least. >> you know that one. >> Yeah. >> was found. But there isn't a question in. your mind that they're living someplace, you know, that they were all shot. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, my brother said he was. like he was with. >> some of them and he said that.

>> they were still alive, but he had to. leave or he would have been. >> shot. >> The brother who escaped. >> Yeah. So, how many brothers were thrown. in the uh. >> nine? >> Nine. >> Yeah. >> And one escaped. >> Uh one brother and two half brothers. Yeah. >> Escaped. >> And six didn't. >> Didn't. >> Yeah. But I think I I often think about. them because their last moment was. seeing ISIS taking their wives and. daughters and sisters into slavery. before they were killed because they.

knew as they were taken outside to be. killed in mass graves. They they looked. at us in the school and they knew that. ISIS was going to enslave their wives. and their daughters. And I think that. was the last thing on that was on their. minds. um knowing. that those people. >> and that there was nothing they could. do. >> No, no. Um and you know I. you know my brothers and my family is. just one story but we really.

>> like we we grew up really poor. My. mother raised 11 children on her own on. a small farm and we were just, you know, poor normal people. And then your. neighbors turn overnight against you. And then you know in war things changed. so fast like like one day we were one. moment we were on on the field packing. onions to send them to the market and. the next we were attacked and there we.

were surrounded and then we were. separated and then we were in buses and. then we were touched. And this is in a. matter of days. >> and hours. >> hours. >> hours like you couldn't process one. thing before the next will you know what. happened like they will tell us okay go. to the school and on the way to school. they started like taking our earrings. and phones and then you know separated. us and then we are hearing them killing. men and then they're like putting women. in the back of the trucks and then men.

are taking over. They took the older. women and shot them and took the younger. women and separated them to be. trafficked and sold as sex slaves. >> Yeah. And then it's not like, you know, you're sold to a man and just like one. time, but then it's like they can. get, you know, as Katherine in her. message says sometimes she was in in one. house with nine girls that were this, you know, the same ISIS member will take. them and and some of them my nieces were. were nine and 10. Today they don't even.

know how to tell their stories because. when you go through it at that age and I. said in my first book. >> you were nine and 10 years old. >> Yes. Yeah. >> In my first book I say that I I still in. that situation I felt grateful that I. was 21 because I looked at those girls. who were nine and 10 and 11 and I I. didn't because. >> they didn't even have the language to. describe what was happening. even after. they survived they don't know how to to. say what happened and I I really.

>> there you know not just you know with. Yazidis but I have visited so many you. know clinics where you know young girls. will share their stories through. paintings and stuff because they don't. know how to express it. >> use the language to describe what is the. horror that has happened. >> yeah but that is that isn't young girls. and in this culture where sex isn't. >> discussed you don't see people with. sexual behaviors on television or in. advertising or anything. And so,

>> no, no, you don't you don't study it in. school. They go through it very quickly. >> And if you're not a virgin when you get. married, you are in trouble. It's a. crime. >> It's not in you're not in trouble. It's. a crime. And the shame it's it's not on. you alone. It's on your cousins, your. aunts, your whole. >> Because you share the story of when your. cousin left. >> Yeah. The friend. punished herself for ever saying, "I. should have known. I should have known. I should have known that she was falling.

in love with someone." Because when she. then left to be with the person that. she'd fallen in love with. >> Yeah. >> They find them and the woman is killed. >> and the guy's left to go back to his. life. >> The guy gets to go back and he's never. charged. >> It's the case of like honor killing is. just so even today it's common. It's. very common and it happened in my life. and it it it. was. >> that's why it I I still I continue to. say how extraordinary that you were. willing to tell your story because were.

you ever concerned also about what would. happen to your family with you telling. this story? >> Yeah, I I was because I know like. >> you know if your family's ostracized. >> Yeah. If you sure and then for example. if my nieces want to get married the. family of that guy would say okay but. her her aunt lost her virginity and. she's not virgin. She shared the story. of rape and that's why I share the story. of how they were trying to make us.

virgin again. >> Yeah. You tell share that story that you. were at a hospital. >> Yeah. Trying to give us surgeries that. you know cover a crime with surgery. >> But the story is you were at a hospital. They take all the girls to this new. clinic. Was it a clinic or hospital. >> and say all of you girls who've been. raped, we're going to make you virgins. again. >> We're going to restore your virginity. through this operation. >> And you refused to have the operation. Why? >> I refused. And I later after I talked to.

some of my friends and girls from my. village, I realized other girls refused. I refused that because what happened to. me was not my fault and I didn't want to. do something that will make society. happy. You know, it was about them. It. was never about making me, you know, feel that nothing happened. And my niece. and my sister that they took the surgery. and today it's their biggest regret. >> because. >> because they learned that, you know, they said yes to something that was.

never about them. They told us it will. make us feel that it has never happened. But it's not it's not that you know the. >> it's a it becomes a part of you. >> Yeah. >> It it's a permanent mark. >> You can't do a couple of stitches and. change it. >> It it doesn't it doesn't erase what. happened in captivity. The man who. touched you, the man who like you know. came and took you and over and over. It's the one surgery is not going to. erase that. And if I had not shared my.

story before that because some people. knew that I did, maybe I would have. taken it and I but I'm I'm glad I I. shared. But I also thought of Katherine. I was like, what happens if I take the. surgery and then I tell the world, well, my niece is being raped, but look, I'm. virgin. I'm not. Um, and I didn't. >> I returned I've had my virgin virginity. returned. >> Yeah. But it it's risky and that's why. you don't see a lot of women sharing. their story of.

>> and also what is what is really pretty I. think commendable is that your husband. your now husband Abbott um came to you. and said I'm sorry for what had happened. to to you and wasn't judging you. >> uh because of it because that's what so. many. >> that's what the culture did culture says. you're no longer. >> no fool full a full human. Yeah. No, it's it's a it was interesting because.

he is from my community. He is from He. moved to the US back in 2009. But. >> but he is from there, >> right? >> Yeah. But having like someone from there. say that. It was just I was shocked to. be honest. I was shocked. And. >> you said this is a man worth paying. attention to. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad I did. >> And I'm glad you did. You've said. survival is not the end of the story, that recovery is something that you keep. choosing. What are those choices that.

you make on a regular basis, Nadia? That. you keep choosing to recover because it. never goes away as you said. It's it's a. negotiation with memory. You know, I I I choose recovery in small. things and not just, you know, big. things that I do through my work. I do. small things like, you know, making. plans with friends and making time for. friends and going to a thrift store to.

pick up an outfit for this uh interview. Um, I go on long runs. I I do my hair. and makeup. I uh try to see you know. what I want to do 10 years from now, 20. years from now. Uh I u watch Seinfeld. with my husband every night and it's uh. it's just those small things that I I. keep. >> Do you get the jokes? >> Yes. >> Speaking from Iraq, you do. Okay. >> Yeah. Finally. Yeah. I watched, you. know, the first. >> time. >> I was just wondering if you come if.

you're coming from another country, do. do you get the jokes? You do. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> You didn't at first. >> No. Your husband helped you. >> Yes, I bet. Yeah. But now I It's one of. my favorite and so yeah in small things. when you know people send me makeup I. >> brings me joy. Yeah. >> Yeah. So you've written the book. It's. called I choose my beginning. Do you ha. you have to keep choosing though? Don't. you? >> It's not a one time. You have to keep. choosing recovery and new beginnings.

And yeah, survival is just the very. first step. And. >> but I'm wondering um I have one of my. daughter girls uh who I mentor and who. is a member like a member of our family. now I've known since 2013. She survived. the Rwanda genocide as a 10-year-old. and. um. she, you know, has been able to go on. with her life and, >> you know, have a have a beautiful.

existence. And I'm wondering. for you and that kind of survival, I. know you never forget it. You never. forget it. But do you feel that you've. been able to construct another life, an. alternate life? You wouldn't have had. the this life if the genocide hadn't. happened. Have you constructed a life. that can make you fulfilled and happy?

>> I think that's what what I'm focused on. right now. I'm trying to have that life. I don't want my life to be entirely. consumed by my work and what happened to. me. And that is why I do simple things. and do things for myself that make my. life more. >> But how do you heal when you're. constantly talking to other women who. are going through the same thing? So. isn't that re-triggering? >> It it is, but it it's it is also it. means that I am helping other people to. open up. Uh I was just in New York and I.

was doing an event at DVF with you know. about the book and two women stood up in. the middle of the audience and said that. they were raped in church. they were. raped through, you know, social media. and then at home and every time I help. someone else to open up to say that, you. know, they're not alone and they've gone. through it. It it I do feel, you know, it it's hard. You have to think about. it. I have to connect with them. But it. is my my job. But also, you know, I even.

if I don't share this story, like when I. think of Katherine, my niece, >> I have I have to think of of when was. the last time I saw her. The last time. was in captivity. So, I have to think. >> back. >> of all the Catherine that are still. there. >> Yeah. And uh I have to think I have to. go back to Mosul in my mind to see. Katherine again. I have I go back every. time I listen to her voice messages. do. but at the same time I'm trying to build.

that normal life uh with my husband. talking to my family members making. friends and I think. the past will always be there and it. will always be part of me and I just. need to make peace with it. >> make peace with it. Thank you for. sharing with us today. My thanks to Amal. Clooney for joining us and thank you. thank you so much Nadia Mirod for having. the tenacity and the courage to keep.

speaking and to change the world. Nadia's books, The Last Girl. You should. read that one first, I think. And but. you don't have to read The Last Girl to. read I choose My Beginning. I just will. tell you this is completely a full story. in its own. But if you read The Last. Girl, you're going to want to read I. Choose My Beginning. Both are available. wherever you buy your books. Go. Well, there is so much more to discover and. learn in Nadia's books. In The Last.

Girl, Nadia shares her story of survival. and her fight for justice. In her new. book, I Choose My Beginning. She takes. us inside what it took to rebuild her. life and make peace with the past. Scan. the QR codes there on your screen to get. your copies and continue Nadia's story. Our listeners tell us that the podcast. is resonating with you and is serving as. a bright spot in your day. That means a. lot to me. So, here's the thing. I would.

really appreciate it if you like and. subscribe to the Oprah podcast on. YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's. it's just a quick tap of the subscribe. button and that way you won't miss an. episode in your queue. You don't have to. pay anything. I know subscribe usually. means you're paying something, but this. time it means you just are notified when. there's something new. There are many. more to come that we're excited about. So, thank you for watching and. listening.