Oprah with Belle Burden on the Collapse of Her 20 Year Marriage & Her Bestselling Memoir

Oh, my goodness, Belle. We got some. talking to do, girl. I see that you've. marked the book up, Oprah. >> marked the book. I wanted to do this. book because [music] there's so many. friends that I've had who've gone. through this. >> Mhm. And I feel like I've gone through. it with them. >> Yes. You are every woman. That you have. written the manual for every woman. This. is the This is book is just It's a. memoir of marriage, but it's also a. memoir of every woman who's gone through. divorce suddenly hearing from her.

husband, "I don't want to be married. anymore. I'm unhappy." And you thought. everything [music] was okay, and he. Yeah. This is the book. Thank you. Everybody's. Everybody's talking about it. >> [laughter]. >> You're going to get [music] into it, Belle. >> Okay, I'm ready. Ask me anything. >> Okay. >> [music]. >> Hey there, everybody. Welcome to The. Oprah podcast. It's good to be with you. here. I'm really excited to talk about. our subject today. Take a moment and try. to imagine this happening to you.

A lot of you don't even have to imagine. it because it's already happened. Out of. the blue, your spouse. of 20 years and father to your three. children says this, "I thought I was. happy, but I'm not. I thought I wanted. our life, but I don't. I feel like a switch has been flipped. I'm done. You can have custody of the. kids. I don't want it. I don't want any. of it.". Imagine that after 20 years when you're.

just thinking things are okay. Well, my. guest heard just those words from her. husband and has now written an. evocative, may I say, book that has. struck a chord with so many women and. readers. Everybody I know is talking. about this book. It's called Strangers, a memoir of marriage. But if you've been. through a divorce or suspect that you. might be going through a divorce, it's. also your story. From the outside, Belle Burden was. living a life most people only dream of.

She and her husband of 21 years were. raising their three children in New York. City. >> [music]. >> Summers were spent at their home on. Martha's Vineyard, an idyllic island off. the coast of Massachusetts. Belle, [music] a Harvard-trained lawyer, hails from a prominent American family. filled with bold-faced names including. the Vanderbilts and John Jay, the first. Chief Justice of [music] the Supreme. Court. Her maternal grandmother was. style icon and socialite [music].

Babe Paley. Her step-grandfather was Bill Paley, the. founder of CBS. >> [music]. >> Belle grew up in a family where. generation to women rarely ever. discussed their husbands'. transgressions. But when her own husband abruptly ended. their marriage, Belle decided to break. that chain. First with a modern love. essay in the New York Times that [music]. went viral, and now with her new New. York Times bestseller Strangers, a. memoir of marriage.

Welcome, Belle Burden. Glad to be with. you on my front porch. I'm so glad to be. here. It's exciting. >> the people are talking about this book. They really are. I'm hearing from so. many women around the world. Um and it's. really surprised me in the most. wonderful way. Okay, what did you think. when you wrote it? I know it started as. a as an article for the New York Times. It did. And um I thought when I wrote it. that it would be a quiet book, that it. would sort of get known by word of. mouth, that women would talk about it a. little bit. But I did not expect this.

kind of response. But it really is women. reading it, seeing themselves. >> women and seeing themselves. Exactly. Some books explain things, I would say. And then there are books that name. things that I think that we've been. living with our whole lives, but never. had the language for. You all know what. I'm talking about. And Strangers is. actually one of those books. So, you. were married for 21 years to James.

That's not his real name. You believed that it was a good. marriage, a solid and happy marriage. And you and your husband had recently. This This is what struck me about the. book. You and your husband had recently. purchased a brand new expensive Sleep. Number mattress. Yes, very, very. expensive bed in January. Yeah. And this. happened in March, two months later. And. he had he had picked out the mattress. Okay, so you're thinking if you're. getting this expensive mattress. that it's at least for, you know, 10. years, maybe.

>> Yeah. Mhm. Okay. And so the Sleep. mattress allows you to adjust You all. may have one of these. It allows you to. adjust your firmness and softness for. each side. Yes. Yeah. Is something about. that mattress that stood out for me? Have other people mentioned that, too? Um a couple of people have mentioned it, and I think about it a lot because it. was such an investment, and it was so um. accommodating of both of our tastes. He. likes a very soft mattress. I like a. very hard mattress. >> And it seemed like this great. compromise. It also took a lot to get it.

into the frame. We had to have a lot of. men come up and and sort of adjust it. and put it in, and it was it was really. a big ordeal. Um and so it it's one of. those things I look at and think. he could not have been planning this. Yeah. And I think what is so interesting about. that is everybody that I know who's gone. through it, particularly people who are. betrayed, uh and find out that their spouse has. been cheating, they go back through. everything, and you think, "Where was.

the sign? Where When should I have. known? What was the clue?" And if you. bought that expensive. mattress in January, that is a clue that we're moving in the. right direction and that we're, you. know, >> stable. >> stable. >> Happy, even. Um and I [clears throat] have tried to. look back and look for those red flags, either a red flag about him, his. character, or a sign that he was really. moving away and planning to to leave. And I It's hard to find those.

And then you get the call on March 21st, 2020. So, let me remind everybody, I don't have to tell you March 21st, 2020, we were we had just gotten the. word, I think around March 16th, that. we're going to be in lockdown. So, that's a Saturday after our first full. week in lockdown during COVID. Set the. scene for us. I I appreciate the way you do it in the. book. I can see your one daughter, she's. upstairs playing Fortnite.

>> Mhm. And then your other daughter is. uh had made dinner, had made pasta, and. you're in the kitchen. And what happens? So, we had just finished dinner. I was. cleaning up. I was actually mopping the. floor, and I get a call on my cell. phone. I don't recognize the number, so. I let it go to voicemail. And then I play the message, and it's a. man's voice. He sounds nervous, and he. says, "I'm trying to reach Belle. I'm. sorry to tell you this, but your husband. is having an affair with my wife.".

And my first. >> message. >> This is a voice message. And my first thought is this can't be. true. This must be a mistake. It's a. wrong number. And then I realize it's. the wrong Belle. I realize [laughter]. Belle. Realize he said my name. Yeah. And I. think. he must My husband's going to explain. this. We're very happily married. We. love each other. I've never seen any. sign of this. How can this be true? And. we'd had this week that was we were all. scared about the pandemic, but it was. very cozy. He was chopping wood and.

making fires and bringing me cocktails, and it was all very cozy. Um and that. night he admitted to the affair, but he told me that it didn't mean. anything, it had only been going on for. a couple of weeks, and that he loved me. and only me, um and loved our family. And I thought, "Okay, I'm stuck in this house. We are. going to have to do therapy on Zoom. I'm. going to have to figure out if I can. work through this. It's going to be a. nightmare, but this is what we're going to have to. do.".

Um So, your immediate response after. your husband says to you, "Listen, it's. only been going on for. for two weeks," he said. Yeah. >> Mhm. And you think, "Okay, we're going to. work through it." We're going to work. through it. I asked some questions. I. asked for her name. I asked if she had. kids. He gave me those details. Um and. then my younger daughter called for me, and we had to end that conversation. Um and I went to my shower and closed. the door, the glass door to my shower, and just started wailing. Um and did it in a place where my girls.

could not hear me. And I texted the man who had called me. I wasn't quite ready to talk to him on. the phone, and I said, "Can you tell me. how long this has been going on?". And he said, "I think about a month.". So, a little bit different. And then he. said, "But I can't talk now cuz my wife. is in an ambulance, and she has tried to. kill herself." This is the girlfriend. The girlfriend. Yeah, his wife, um my. husband's mistress. Yes. Um and I felt. such worry then for the woman I'd never.

met. Um and I went to find my husband, and he was. >> kind of woman. You're not going to worry. about the other woman. Yeah. I just. thought, you know, is she all right? Is. she in distress? Is she Is she okay? >> Yeah. Um and I went to find my husband. He was in our guest room, and he was on. the phone with her. And he was almost hunched over the phone. in this very caretaking pose. And I. remember thinking, he he's caretaking of her and not of me, and he's just I've just learned that our.

marriage is in crisis, and he's had an. affair. So, you realize he's on the phone with her. >> Mhm. And that he looks concerned and. caretaking. About her. >> About her. And it's it was such a cold. feeling thinking that he was worried. about her. And he told me, "She's going to be fine. She took some sleeping pills. She's. going to be okay.". Um and then. a few hours passed. he went to sleep. I.

stayed in my room in in torment. Okay, well, let me just read this one. I love. I love this part where you say you write. that she had taken the pills. the moment I, James' wife, first heard. about her, right? Wasn't I the one, is. what you say, wasn't I the one who was. supposed to be falling apart? Wasn't he. supposed to be worried about me? She captured my husband's attention at a. time when I needed it most. What did you. realize about your marriage in that. moment? I I wasn't quite able to put my head.

around it. I just knew that everything. had changed even in that moment and then. it changed a lot more later, but I just. thought, wait, something is really wrong. with this picture and something is. really wrong with both of them actually. because I'm the one who's gotten this. devastating news, yet no one is. concerned about me. Well, that is the. moment what when reading strangers that. I realized, oh, this is going to relate. to so many women because I lived through. this with Gail. You all know Gail's been my best friend.

for 50 years now and I can share this. because she's talked about it herself, but on the night that she discovered her. husband with another woman in her house, in her bed, which is about the worst thing. I I. think that's one of the worst the night. that she discovered that, I said to her, you got to pick your head up off the. floor. and the moment that you talk about him. being on the phone with the woman who. was in the with his mistress, I remember.

Gail called me and she said, I just. found him with this woman and I said, well, where is he now? And she said, he's gone to take her to the train. station. There you go. >> [laughter]. >> I said, girl, you don't even know how bad this is. This is this is really bad. Where he is supporting her, you were walking on him, you find them naked and he then leaves.

to take her instead of consoling you. You're already out of the picture. They're already a mile ahead of you. That's how it felt. Yeah. And I should. have known that night that this was not. going to get better and in fact it did. get a lot worse. That first night lying in bed after you. you find him on the phone with her, you. feel a little different. Your concern. changes. You're not like, oh, I'm so. worried about her. You're like, what's. wrong with you? shocked that she wasn't she wasn't. worried about me either. She kind of. stole the attention in a way when I. really deserved that attention.

In that moment. Yes, yes and that was. obviously she turned out to be okay. She. was fine. Like once I knew she was fine, that's when it shifted to just. astonishment. She stole the attention. Yes, yes, that's how it felt. And then I didn't sleep that night. He. did, but at 6:00 in the morning he came. into my room fully dressed with a tote. bag packed. and his whole affect had changed. It was.

very cold. His eyes were very icy. and he said to me, I've decided I want a divorce. I thought I was happy, but I'm not. and I'm going to leave right now and he. did. He walked out of our house. He got. in his Jeep. He got on a ferry and he. left the island. And. yes, on Martha's Vineyard, exactly and. he went to New York, I believe to see. her.

and it was. that moment that he became someone I. really did not recognize. Therefore, the. book strangers, strangers. He became a. stranger. literally because the man you had known. would never have done that to you. The. man that I thought I knew would never. have done that to me. I really I I. thought he was a very devoted, mild, kind person and he had never told me. once that he was unhappy. Okay, a lot of times people don't say they're.

unhappy, but you you sense the. unhappiness. You would never sense the. unhappiness or disconnection because. when I first started reading this book, I thought it was going to be about, oh, you thought you were connected, but you. recognized all the signs of being. disconnected and you were strange you. had always been strangers all along, but. it isn't it wasn't that at all. It. didn't feel that way. I felt a real. intimacy with him. and I I did accept a little bit of.

remove. He was a little bit removed, a. little bit distant and I but I felt like. that was a quirk in his personality. and I guess there was more bubbling. beneath the surface maybe, but I it was not a situation of. realizing, oh my gosh, he's been leading. this double life all along. And I know. those of you who who are listening who. have been through this and I know that's. this is a big club. A lot of members in this club, women. who've [clears throat] been betrayed. You're going over in your head all the.

things, all the signs you could have. where could I have seen the sign? What. did I miss? What did I I miss? And one. night you became convinced that James. had fathered the other woman's toddlers. because he told you that she had. toddlers, right? She toddlers about three and one year. old. And when you confronted him, he said. what? Well, at that point he had stopped. answering my phone calls. and told me that I was too upset for him. to speak to,

but I caught him in the middle of the. night. He picked up the phone at about. 1:00 a.m. cuz I was spiraling thinking. that he had actually fathered them. and he said, stop, you have lost your mind and he. hung up the phone. But that seemed in this world where. everything that I thought was impossible. was now possible. I thought even that. could be possible. That hasn't been 2 weeks or a month that. you're now the father of the toddlers. Illogical [clears throat] thought for. somebody. yes, it happens all the time and you.

write, I felt like I had lost my mind. like his exit had transformed me. suddenly from an intelligent, stable. wife and mother to an unhinged lunatic, a mad woman. Somehow I had become the. dangerous person in this story, the. volatile character rather than he, the. man who had left his family. Yeah. I I it's amazing to me and I think. this happens to a lot of women. overnight. Somehow we are transformed. into the hysteric.

Based on all the people I know who've. gone through this that. that that's a tactic. Yes, I think it. is. That's a tactic that the men use. Absolutely. Many instances I realize. where I'm laughing [clears throat] cuz I. remember Gail goes, I am not crazy. Exactly. Yes. In many instances where. the where the man, the husband, the. spouse is saying, you're crazy, you're. hysterical and I I think there was a. wonderful line that you wrote where you.

said, once a woman is painted as a. hysteric, the rest of the story is washed away. She's dismissed. Yes, she's absolutely. dismissed and it happens very quickly. even though he did something that was. fairly unhinged to walk out on your. family during a pandemic. Within 12 hours I was too upset. I was. too angry. I was overreacting. when everything actually everything is. fine. He kept saying everything's fine. This is fine. So, let's go to the. everything is fine. So, how long before.

you all told the girls because this is. what is so unbelievable. I I'm always. amazed at. working mothers, working parents who. have a whole life outside and then have. to come home and be present for their. children and not be hysterical for their. children. So, you didn't tell the girls. at first. A therapist advised that I. wait because the pandemic was so scary. and so that we should wait till the. pandemic was less scary and of course. that never happened. and I thought I was hiding it from them.

I did not do a good job. I was crying. all the time. I had trouble getting out. of bed for a very long time. I just pretended like I was okay even. though my eyes were swollen. My older. daughter actually knew. She read a text. on my iPad almost immediately, which. happens a lot, I think. So, she knew and. she had to pretend that she didn't know. And then my younger daughter didn't. know, but then I think after. 15.

and then my younger one was 12 and I. also have a 17 year old boy who was with. his with his friends and the younger one. did not know, but then when she found. out afterwards, she felt betrayed that I. hadn't told her. So, I think that was a. mistake. I wish I had told them. I said. their dad had gone back to New York to. go to work even though New York was shut. down and I wish I had just said, this is happening and told it in a. factual way so that we could all. [clears throat] go through it together. It's true. You have to collect yourself.

and I. as I say many years ago. in the 70s, I interviewed Betty Rollins. She wrote a book called First You Cry. It was one of the first books about. breast cancer. First You Cry and I. remember saying to Gail that somebody. should write a book for women going. through divorce that says, first you. pick your head up off the floor because. you're so literally every person that I. know who's been through it. who finds himself in the midst of.

betrayal for the first time, it's like. your chicken with your head cut off and. I it's it's it's. it's disconcerting really to to your. whole being and I spent a lot of time on. the bathroom floor, which you think is a. cliche, but it's actually not. I think. we spend a lot of time there because no. one will come in the room and also it's. like this cold floor that it made me. feel like I wasn't going to fall through. the earth. >> Right. It held you up. It's what it held. you up. >> Yeah. Okay. And a lot of tears. >> So, how long before he comes back to.

tell the children? >> a month. Um I thought I we've got to. tell them. This is crazy. We've got to. tell them. And initially he didn't want. to come. He wanted me to tell them. And then didn't he want to zoom? >> Then we were going to zoom. >> Oh, crazy. >> Um and I felt mixed about him coming cuz. he was in New York. I was worried he. would bring COVID. I didn't know what. kind of person was going to show up. Um. cuz we had not been in we had not been. communicating. But. finally decided he should be there in. person to tell the girls. Um and we.

called my son beforehand. And then he. arrived and my first thought when I saw. him coming up our walkway was that he. seemed. really happy. He seemed elated. Wow. >> Which was so incongruous to the the. wreckage that he had left with me. >> Yeah. Um and he came in and we sat in. our living room. I had my arms around. both girls. And he told them that we were divorcing, that he hadn't been happy. And um.

it's just that terrible moment. It's. terrible for any family when this news. is delivered to kids. >> here's the thing. that you're leaving out. They all. discuss the good parts. You're leaving. out this is the good part. >> He's telling the girls and then in the. in the midst of telling the girls he. says, "Can you get me a sandwich?". >> He did. He looked at me and he said, "I'm starving." Yeah. >> Can you make me a sandwich? And part of my brain thought. >> [laughter]. >> Even the cameraman goes, "Oh.". >> Oh, yes. Part of my brain thought, "You. used to live here. Go make your own.

sandwich. I'm not going to make you a. sandwich." And then I had my younger. daughter had run down the stairs. She. was very upset. And my older daughter. was sitting there with her arms crossed. looking at her father. And I'm having a dialogue with myself. that I think a lot of mothers have, which is I should model that we are. going to be kind to each other, that. we're going to work together. That we're not going to be nasty ever. Um that there will be love and caring. here even if we're divorcing. So, you. made the sandwich. >> won out and I went into the kitchen and.

I made the sandwich. And as I'm making. it I think I am going to make the best. sandwich ever. I will not make a. terrible sandwich. I want him to leave. thinking, "How could I leave this woman. who makes such a great sandwich?" And of. course the sandwich represented so much. else. It represented home and the warmth. and the security. >> for you and what you received here and. Exactly. But I don't think he saw it. that way at all. I think he ate it and. didn't think about it again.

Yeah. Mhm. One of the things you write. in Strangers is that some people say the. end of a marriage is 50/50, always. 50/50. But you ask, "Is it 50/50 when. the unhappy person doesn't say that they. are unhappy?". >> Mhm. Is it 50/50 when you didn't know that. there was this disruption going on? Uh and I'm wondering, does it matter in. the end? Does it whether it was 50/50 or. 20/80? I think it's one of those things. that if it happens like this to you um.

it's frustrating when people say, "Oh, well it takes two to tango. Two people. have to end a marriage." And I don't. think that's fair because I think that. >> Yeah. you need at least to be to be able. to. >> That's not somebody who's been through. it. That's not somebody who's been. through it. >> And in some [clears throat] cases it is. cuz there's conflict and and um there. are a lot of issues. But you you have to. communicate that you're unhappy. You. have to give someone a chance to to go.

to therapy or discuss or something like. that. So, I resisted and I still resist. that idea that it was 50/50. >> Did you go through the five stages of. grief or the stages of grief? Uh you. know, shock, denial. anger bargaining dis Yeah, all of that. I think I did. I would say that. definitely shock, disbelief um anger was. never the dominant emotion and I. certainly felt it at times. I think I.

was so overwhelmed by sadness and shock. that anger. came in spurts, but it was not the. dominant thing. >> Yeah. Um and I wrestled with it later. again. And then I think there there was. bargaining probably was there and then. acceptance definitely was. >> Yeah. I ended there. Well, I have. learned through all of my conversations. over. all these years that acceptance is the. key to everything. I mean, whether it's. a diagnosis for disease, whether it's a.

breakup of relationship, if it's a job. or getting to acceptance as soon as you. can is what changes the trajectory for. everything. >> I really agree. I really agree and I had. to get there on my own because I thought. I could land on an answer and that that. was key to being able to accept this. And I never got that answer. I didn't. get it from him. I didn't get it from my. detective work. I just never got it. And. what shifted it for me. >> That's why this book is you all are.

going to love this book if you haven't. read it already is it's so important is. because every woman wants the answer to. why. >> Yes. Why? Why did this happen? Why did I do something wrong? What is. the why? >> of those whys. >> you couldn't get to the why. I couldn't. get to it and I worried actually that. readers would be frustrated that I never. get to it. But I think what happened for. me. >> it's on the opposite. The reason why the. book is so popular is that you didn't. get to it and so many women haven't.

gotten to it. >> Exactly. I think that's right. And what. changed it for me is shifting the focus. cuz I wasn't going to It was like trying. to get blood from a stone. I wasn't. going to get it from him. So, I had to. shift the focus to myself. >> Yeah. >> My stepmother is a family therapist and. she uses this trick where you picture. him and myself on a stage and the. spotlight's on him and I have to move it. in my brain from him to me. Okay, that's. really important. And I just wanted to. say as I was reading it I was thinking. you did this as a memoir, originally as.

a article and then now a book. But you. did it as a memoir about your life and. you know, going through analyzing what. had happened in your marriage. Mhm. But. it becomes sort of a manual I think for. other women who are going through it. First of all, you mentioned your. stepmom. I In the book I remember when. she tells you that divorce is worse than. death. And at first you didn't seem to. agree. Did you come to realize. differently or think differently about.

that divorce is worth than worse than. death? I know a lot of you who are going. through it have been through it feel. that way. Yes, I think I It's hard for. me to say that cuz I watched her lose my. father and how horrible [clears throat]. that was to be a widow. And um But she's. a therapist. >> Yes. And she told you She she told me. And she believes that it's worse because. he is out there living a different life. and I had to really look back at our. love story and and re-evaluate it and. and feel that rejection, which is so.

painful. Yeah. But my my children still. have a father um and a lot of you know, when when there's death there people. lose important people to them. >> Yeah, I understand that and I know a lot. of people are going to challenge it. But. what what what what I think she meant. and I have said that to my friends, too. Yeah. This is worse than death because. if your husband had died, you come to. accept that he is dead and nothing's. going to change and you couldn't have. changed that. >> Yes. And your narrative can stay the. same. >> narrative can stay the same. If your.

husband betrays you, suddenly leaves. you, you're still left with all the whys. and the whys and the whys and the. >> And a lot of shame, too. >> And a lot and a lot of shame. >> Mhm. A lot of shame. >> So, tell us why you were feeling shame. when you're not the one who walked out. on your family. I felt it so intensely. I really felt so much shame as I. re-entered the community that I'm a part. of there. I felt like I was um. I had failed in keeping my husband.

interested in me, loving me. I had. failed in keeping my family intact. Um I. felt like I was less than all these. other women who had stayed married. And I think for me there are so many. people who have been through this. But. when you're going through it, you you're. not aware of that. You feel like you. were the only person this has happened. to and you feel so isolated. >> Page 145 you write, "I felt a deep sense. of embarrassment about it.". >> Mhm. "James was the one who had an. affair, who walked out. But the shame.

had become mine. I had made it mine. I. was an abandoned wife, a woman rejected. by her husband, a woman who had failed. to keep her family together. I would be. the outsider." Mhm. "I think a lot of. women, particularly in your social. circles, think this. I would be the. outsider among all the married people, all the intact families, all the women. Oh. All the women who were wanted by their. husbands.". >> Yes. And it was it was that was so. deeply hard for me. And I happen to be. in a community where everyone was.

married. I was I felt like the only. person who was not married. Um and so I. And you you kind of cross over from one. day to the next from being a part of. something. to being different, to not being a part. of that thing. >> And your ex-husband wanted you to tell. everyone that the separation was mutual. But what stands out for me and I think. is going to be so helpful to so many of. you hearing the story is that you didn't. hide. You were embarrassed and all the. things that we just said, but you didn't. hide. You would go up to people in your.

social circle and say out loud. I would say, "My husband left me. I don't know why and I am in agony.". And the moment that he asked me for it. to be to say it was amicable, he tried. to tell me it'd be better for me. I felt. this. full-bodied certainty that I could not. do that, that I could not lie about it, that I would not survive this if I tried. to lie about it. So, when I ran into. people, I just said it. Mhm. And I never.

stopped saying it. And some people could. handle it and some people could not. >> When did you make the decision to do do. that? The moment he said, "I want it. want you to Yes, and that was only a. weekend and I just knew I couldn't do. it, which is contrary to my personality. I'm I'm shy, I'm very private. >> Mhm. But I just knew I could not. spin a false narrative about this. This. was what was happening to me, what was. happening to my kids. Okay, so you were. everyone has their own social circles.

and you know, whether it's your your. school or your church or your community. or your girls club, your book club, yours happens to be in Martha's. Vineyard. And nearly 2 years after your. divorce, the New York Times published an. essay, "Was I Married to a Stranger?". Why did you want to write that article? It was in their Modern Love column. I. always loved the Modern Love column. >> Me, too. About a year after he left when we were.

moving towards divorce, I felt like. there were so many different narratives. about what had happened, including from. him. >> Okay, go Okay, let's stop this for a. second. I just want to ask you, so when. you go up to someone and you say when. you make the decision you're going to. say. "James has left me. and I don't know why and I'm in agony.". I'm sure people didn't know what the. hell to do with that. A lot of people. did not. And I understand. I'm not sure I would. have known what to do with it. I'm not. sure I would have.

>> word had spread, right? >> Oh, everyone was talking about it. People This was hot gossip. And people. some. people are uncomfortable with it. I had. a couple of men that I knew well turn. away from me and walk away from me. without saying hello. And on the other hand, some people. really moved towards me and it's taught. me a lot about how to respond to people. someone who's going through anything, anything that's a sudden change or a. difficult thing. I had people stop me on. the street and say, "I'm so sorry you're.

going through this." Or another woman. who grabbed me by the shoulders and. said, "I'm going to take care of you.". And it's it was such a beautiful thing. It really lifted me up. But the there. were harder reactions, too. And I think. for all those people people bring their. own family histories to these things. Um. and. their reaction is is definitely. influenced by that. >> When the article first came out, tell us. about the reaction. You I think I can't. remember where you were and one of your. friends.

>> I was on Martha's Vineyard. It came out. on June 30th, yeah. >> Yeah. Um 2023. and I was so excited because I had. wanted to be a writer when I was a. teenager and I I when I started trying. to write down exactly what happened, I. got very interested in the art of it. again. And when it was picked, I just thought, "Oh my god, this is incredible." So, I. felt this pride and excitement. And it really some people were. incredibly congratulatory and supportive. and it for other people it made them.

very uncomfortable that I was speaking. about this and writing about it. And for. some, I think it made them. uh they were more critical of me writing. about it than of him leaving. Wow. Which really surprised me. Even. accusing you of being a bad mother. Yeah. Mhm. Which was really painful for. me because I had put myself through that. same question. Am I doing something. harmful to my kids? By telling the. truth. >> By telling the truth. >> the story, by exposing the story.

>> By exposing the story about their. father. They knew everything in the. story, they had lived the story. But there was this idea that you should. never ever speak these stories out loud. Because. >> Because it it harms your children by. harming their father. And that it's just not something we talk. about. We keep private things private. >> Mhm. And. um. I from the beginning, from the moment he.

asked me to say that it was amicable, um. I have always felt like being open and. honest about this was my path forward. There was just going to be no other path. than open honesty. and doing it in a way that was not. vindictive. So, that's one of the things I really. appreciate about the story. uh because so many. women who have been betrayed by their.

husbands live in the space of being. vindictive and they are so filled with. so much anger. That's why I thought it. was interesting that you said when you. were going through the stages, anger. wasn't one of the places that you. landed. But so many women speak from a. from a space of anger and revenge and. being vindictive, but you you never. blame. You're just always trying to. analyze and trying to figure out what's. happening. Yes, I hope so. I um some. people may not buy this cuz I wrote a.

book, but I had seen friends who'd been. through divorce and could not get. themselves out of that place even long. after the divorce was over and it just. infused their whole being. Yeah. And I. just did not want the rest of my life. >> The angry divorcee became their thing, yeah. >> Yes. Yes, which may not be fair, but I. just didn't want to be consumed with it. I didn't want to be consumed with what I. got and didn't get and I didn't want to. be consumed with the betrayal. So, I. decided that when we signed our divorce.

agreement that I would that would be the. marker that I would not live in that. place anymore. And in the book, I really tried to and. in Modern Love, too, not speak from that. kind of place, to really speak factually. about it. >> writing Strangers because you were. trying to figure out yourself, "How did. this happen to me?" Yes, like all. writers, I think I was writing to figure. it out. >> Yeah. And to really put things in place. And part of that actually was.

reconstructing our love story, our life. as a family, my own family of origin, and try to really look since I wasn't. getting any answers from him, look at. myself and look at the decisions I made. over 20 years that kind of put me in the. place that I was. Not. in a place of blame, but just like, "Okay, so I made these decisions about. finances, I made these decisions about. career and here I am. And now what do I. want it to look like going forward?". >> So, you you you just brought up.

finances. I wanted to say this, I hear a. lot of women a lot of women have made a. similar mistake uh as you did uh. allowing your spouses to handle all the. finances. and you write on page 95 about "I lost. touch with both the big picture and the. details of our financial life, depending. on James to tell me what to do. I felt some shame about it, about not. being involved, about not asking.

questions, but I was afraid I wouldn't. understand it, that it was too. complicated for me even though I was a. former corporate lawyer. I settled into the vagueness, the luxury. and privilege of not knowing.". What do you want to say to all the women. doing that right now? Um if my book does. one thing, if it makes women pay more attention to. their finances and what's going on in. their relationship or their marriage. financially, I will be so happy. Because I think I'm not alone in what I.

did. I handed it over to him. in this very trusting, loving way. My. father had died 2 years before and I was. looking for a safe harbor. He said to. me, "I'm going to take care of you.". And it honestly it felt romantic to me. to hand it over to him. He was this man. in a gray flannel suit going off to work. and this was how he was going to take. care of our family. Um and I and as you lose touch with it, for me, I convinced myself that he was.

better able to handle it. That oh gosh, it actually was very. complicated. He made it seem very. complicated. It actually isn't. It's not. hard to learn this stuff. Yeah. Um and. what I would want what I ask friends to. do is to read your tax returns. Understand where your assets are, who. whose name is on each thing and have the. conversation or have some understanding. about what will happen if the. relationship ends. Even if you're the. most happily married person on Earth,

you should know what what will happen to. you if it ends. Okay. I often say that. y'all who watched me over the years have. heard me say this, that. um life speaks to us in whispers. Mhm. And you don't pay attention to the. whispers, you get a little thump upside. the head. You don't pay attention to. that, you get a brick then you get a. brick brick wall. Uh that pre-nup was whispering to you. for months, was it not? Can you tell us. about that? >> The pre-nup was a big whisper that I.

carried with me for the 20 years. It was. still whispering to me. Um. it was a very standard pre-nup that my. family wanted me to sign cuz I had some. inherited money. Yeah, cuz you come from. generations of women who knew Yes, and. um and my money was in trust, it was. still it was protected. Um and it we had a standard pre-nup that. said, "Whatever you come into the. marriage with remains yours, but. whatever is earned during the marriage. is split or anything you put in joint. name is split.". This is what the pre-nup that my brother.

signed. It's very standard. Um but my. then fiance said. first he was very offended by the. pre-nup and then he asked 2 two before. our wedding. that the pre-nup be changed to say that. anything earned during the marriage. would not be split unless we. affirmatively chose to put it in joint. name. And um. I trusted his logic. I wanted to please. him. My lawyer, who was a great lawyer. at a big New York firm, said, "Do not do.

this. This is not good for you. You want. to be home with kids. He's going into. finance. This is not smart." And I convinced him. using the arguments that my fiance was. giving to me. And we changed it. And I knew as he. became wealthier and I depleted my. assets and put them. into joint name in the form of our house. and our apartment. Lord. That this was not going to be good for. me. But yet, I did not act on it. I just.

kept trusting. >> felt it though. >> I felt it. I knew it was there. I knew. it was there and I felt it. >> That's what I'm saying. It was. whispering to you. >> Yeah, it was whispering. And there were. other things that were whispering in. that financial story. Um that I should have paid attention to. There was, you know, he really wanted me. to document all of my spending. He would. not openly share how he was doing. financially. >> So, you didn't know what he was doing, but he knew what you were doing. >> Exactly. He always knew what I was doing. and I did not ask enough questions. And.

I think that. it felt like protection. Mhm. But it. also, I say this in the book, the flip. side of protection is control. Yeah. Right? Where you're just not You do not. have agency. And one of the great parts. of my life now is having that financial. agency and not having anyone have any. control over me in that way. >> generations of women who. uh had experienced infidelity and. divorce, including your mother. Yes. Amanda Burden. >> Mhm. Grandmother Babe Paley. Those of.

you may know who Babe Paley was. Uh you. write, "I thought I had ended this. legacy, right? By marrying someone so. steady, so unassuming, someone who. didn't have a public presence.". >> Yes. Someone who didn't flirt with other. women, at least not in front of me. Yeah. Cuz he never showed you any signs. None. I really thought, and I thought. about it. I thought, "I'm picking. someone so different.". >> Yeah. >> This is I'm not going to make the. mistakes my grandmother made and my.

mother made. >> Yeah. I'm going to learn from it and I. repeated it in a much more spectacular. fashion cuz their mates actually wanted. forgiveness and wanted to come back. Mine did not. Mine was just gone. Mhm. >> And I really wondered, are we doing. something to attract this? Are we. looking for this? Why have I ended up in. the same place as my mother and my. grandmother? And my grandmother had died. when I was nine, but she really was very. present during this time that was so. dark for me. She was like It was like.

she was all around me trying to like. help me through it. >> Comfort you. Yes, and comfort me. >> comforted you. >> felt it felt that way. Your mother is. joining us. Welcome, Amanda. Welcome. Hi. >> Well, I'm so glad to be here with you, too. >> We're having such a good conversation. both of you on that beautiful balcony. Uh So, what was your What was your. reaction when Belle told you she was. going to write her story, Amanda? Well, and when she when she decided to. write the book, um.

I was a little nervous because we are. um a family that is very quiet about uh. private issues and private affairs. But I could see that Belle was in a lot. of pain. And uh. that. she saw a way forward by writing a book. that would um both help her and give her.

a way to deal with her very difficult. situation. Amanda, was there anything in. the book that. surprised you or that you didn't know. about your daughter? Or the fact that. she actually wrote the book, I'm sure. was a surprise. Yeah. Well, it was not. quite a surprise because Belle had been. a great writer. >> Yeah. And uh she gave it up. So, this. was a way to for her to kind of reclaim. an essential part of herself. >> Mhm. And the surprises in the book were.

one. that she was so courageous. >> Mhm. and brave. >> Mhm. and took on a uh a very formidable. subject, which is really about male. entitlement. >> Yeah. As I was saying to her here, it. feels like it's a manual for women. getting through it, even though she was. just writing about herself, because it. is so pure, so honest, so um piercing,

it it connects on a really deep level. So, you must be very proud at this. point. I'm very proud and I think, you know, I've heard many people come up to me to. talk about the book and I really believe. Belle has helped many, many women. Yeah, I think so. >> Because they can identify this and. because they feel less alone. Mhm. And. that is really, really important. And. she's also given women a pathway. um to one uh.

self-examine. and uh look at their situation without. bitterness. Yeah. And move forward by. focusing on their future one step at a. time. >> Yeah, I think she she actually did so. uh. accurately for herself take the. spotlight off of him and put the. spotlight on herself and her well-being. And that's why I think the book is going. to be so helpful to so many people. I. would agree with you on that.

Uh how did you feel when she was sharing. with you about your mother, Babe Paley, who died when she was nine, uh being. such a presence with her throughout. this? What do What do you think your mom. would have thought of Belle's decision. to speak out in this moment? Uh my mother was very attached to Belle. when she was a little girl. Mhm. And it. was very painful that she died when. Belle was so young. But my mother would. have been completely over the moon about.

this book. Uh she would have been so proud of Belle. and doing something that neither her. mother or her grandmother could do. Wow. Well, thank you, Amanda, for joining us. Thank you. It's great to spend time with. you both. Thank you. >> Bye. >> [laughter]. >> One of the things I like about the book. is its restraint. As I was saying, you. don't write from a place of blame, but. from the very beginning you were shocked. that your husband didn't want to, you.

know, that that he seemed to want to give up. his role Mhm. as being an immediate. father. Not that he didn't continue to. have a relationship with his children, but when he said. what he said to you, were you surprised? >> I was really surprised. He said it the. first day when he was leaving, when he. was walking out the door, that he did. not want custody. He said I could have. full custody and I thought he would. change his mind. >> Yeah. And I'm a child of divorce and I. really believe in joint custody. It's. what I would have wanted. So, I served.

up a joint custody agreement, 50/50. And it came back black-lined with all of. his time taken out. And his reason was. that the children were older. He said. they were fully formed human beings. >> Yes. And that he was a great dad, but he. was not This was not going to be the. next part of his life. He also thought. it was better for them not to go back. and forth. >> He didn't want them going back from. household to household. >> Household to household. But my youngest. was 12. She really wanted a a bedroom in his. apartment and that was really painful.

Did he continue to engage with the with. the children? >> He's always been very kind and sweet. with them. He keeps in touch with them. by text. They see each other for dinner, for a hockey game, but he does not do. the day-to-day parenting, the emotional. stuff, the college applications, the. Spanish tests. That is not what he has. done. He's stuck to that commitment to. not being that kind of parent. As I was. saying earlier, the the thing that's hardest to. reconcile for so many people is that.

the thing that I thought you were, you. weren't. >> Yes. And I remember when you all went back to. New York. >> Mhm. and you're going back to the. apartment. >> Mhm. and he met the girls there and he. sees you on the street and he says, "Everything was great." Yes, so this is. in May. Yeah. We hadn't seen him since. the sandwich. >> Yeah. And I thought I run He walks by me. on the street. I think we're going to. have a conversation, something. This. >> Because he's just seen the girls. >> He's just seen the girls and the girls.

have had a really hard time. And he looks at me and he says, "Everything is fine. They're fine. Everything is fine.". And again, I did not say anything back. because I thought, "He's not going to. give me anything.". But I did want to say, "What are you. talking about? Nothing about this is. fine. This has been an emotional trauma. for our family.". >> What do you think perhaps maybe the. girls tried to let him think everything. was fine? Maybe they may have tried to to act that.

way, but I think he really believed that. he if he said it enough times that. everything was fine, that it would be. Yeah. As I said, I know you didn't set. out to write a. a guide book, but it turns out through. your own emotional. devastation, you show a way forward. One. of the things that impressed me is that. even though you felt on some days like. you couldn't get out of bed, you forced. yourself to do the walk. Yes. Let's talk. about that. A friend asked me just to.

walk like down the driveway. This is. when I I felt like I couldn't get out of. bed, like a weighted blanket was on top. of me. And I finally did it. I walked. down the driveway and I thought, "Okay, I can do this. I The fresh air feels. good. The trees feel good to be in. nature." And I went a little bit farther. every day. It eventually became an. 8-mile walk every day. This was COVID, so we had more time. >> Yeah. And I would go one direction one. day in a circle and the other direction. the next day. And as I walked, I would. rarely run into anybody or see anybody.

Um and I would weep as I walked. And. looking back on it, I think that I was. literally walking through the pain. I. was feeling every part of it. And that was really good for me. And I. think moving my body, that sort of. meditation of your feet on the pavement. was was helpful in kind of getting me. just a little bit more alive. Like a. little bit better. So, you know, one of. the reasons why we were comparing it to. death because there is a grieving that.

takes place. You're grieving the life. you had. >> Mhm. And if you've been betrayed, you're. grieving how did this happen and what. did I miss? >> Yes. Mhm. >> You're grieving the life you had and. you're also grieving the life you don't. think you now will have. >> Exactly. It's both. It's both. And. you're grieving the actual person who. you miss. Yes. And and you're grieving. the narrative that you've been telling. yourself for years that this person. loved you. >> you don't fall out of love immediately. even though this is happening, right?

>> assume you do, but I never had a chance. to fall out of love with him. I had to I. had to do that on my own after he was. gone. And it that was very painful cuz I. saw him. >> really important thing to say cuz a lot. of women, the moment you tell your. friends Right, they think you're done. >> it's done. It's over. Yeah, and the. friends are like like forget him. >> Exactly. Exactly. Get him out now. Yeah. Exactly. And I I really was in love with. this man. Um and it took a while. I kept When I.

would see him at a graduation, I I it. was like my hand wanted to hold his. hand. And it took a while. [clears throat] for my body to catch up. to that. And how long before you were. able to be able to release that? I think it took um. it definitely took longer than a year. I. would say maybe a year and a half. It. took a long time for me to catch up. Yeah. It really did. And I think I kept. having fantasies that this was some. great mistake and that he really. regretted it and he was really sad. And.

I had to. >> How long did you think that he was going. to call you and say, "I'm sorry. I made. a mistake. I'm coming back."? >> For a long time. I think also almost a. year. Um and I just kept thinking that. he must be in pain and sad, too. And and. I don't think he was. No. He was bouncing up the steps when he. came to tell the girls. Exactly. >> that you saw in his countenance, his. presence, you looked out the window and. said, "Gosh, he looks really happy.". >> elated. He was. He was. He was. Mhm. That's what's really hard to accept.

>> So hard. So hard cuz you are the. opposite. You are on the bathroom floor. >> You're on the bathroom floor. You write. on page 207, "Slowly over many months as. my head came out of the sand. a form of joy set in, joy born of. replacing the not knowing with knowing, the nub of worry with clarity, the lack. of control with control. All made. easier, of course, by the fact that I. had enough to feel secure to make my. children secure.". And I love this moment when you say.

"This is better than everything I lost. This is better than the life I thought I. wanted." So, what had transpired in all. this? A number of things had transpired. I was. then divorced. I was I had returned to. my maiden name. I was fully in charge of my own. finances. I was now starting this life as a. writer. And I never would have left my marriage. I never would have thought there was. reason to leave my marriage. And I don't. think I was self-actualized in my.

marriage. So, it was almost like the. universe delivered this to me so that I. could end up in this new state, which. it's a totally different kind of. happiness, a totally different kind of. joy, but I would choose this joy again. and again. >> started to feel it in little. increments, taking small steps. >> Yep. When you I think it was several months. after he left, was it the summer when. you started letting the kids come over? >> Yes.

>> Something you wouldn't have done before. >> No, I would not have. I would have. thought, "Oh god, they're going to make. a mess and it's too loud." And and I. just was a little more brittle. And they just started coming over in. droves. I think kids can be sometimes. more comfortable when it's just one. parent. Um and they were happy and they. were loud and they were toasting things. in the kitchen and and it was just so. happy and joyful and I found I was just. so much more relaxed in it. I think. because. all these things that I had depended on, like these structures, had.

fallen away, I could be more relaxed. I. I didn't have like this. tight grip on everything anymore. And I thought "Okay, this is a silver. lining that I can be like this." And. friends noticed, too. They noticed that. I was just a little easier, a little. like I let things go more easily. >> around the edges. >> I softened around the edges. I really did. And that felt much more. like the true me. Yeah.

Mhm. And so, in the end. you learned about the stranger he was, but you had been also a stranger to. yourself. I think that's exactly right. I think that um the title really works. in that way, too, because I had really. lost that self-knowledge, I think, in in. a marriage that I thought was very. happy, but I had moved over those 20. years farther and farther away from. what I believed were my passions and. talents and a true knowing of myself.

And why had you done that, do you think? I think a couple of reasons. I think. with three kids and the chaos of family, that can happen. But I think in our. situation, his career became so. dominant. It was like the family. enterprise and everything moved towards. that. And that was why he missed. parent-teacher conferences and couldn't. go to the birthday party on the weekend. And I think when that happens, it is. very easy for the other. parent to really lose sight of that. Uh.

this passage felt so visceral to me. After you signed the divorce settlement, you write, "I thought I will let this go. now. I will not live in this conflict. anymore. I was successful for the most. part in letting it go. I don't think. about the details of our divorce. I. don't focus on what was lost. What. remains, what still brings a lump to my. throat, a chill to my bones, is not. about money. It's the possibility that there was a. timetable, a clock that I didn't hear. ticking. It is his willingness to make. me afraid when I was already devastated,

already on the floor. It is what he made. clear within weeks of leaving that he. believed my contributions to his career, to our family over 20 years amounted to. nothing.". Wow. What do you now know were your. contributions? I believe I think women who are not. working, taking care of kids, I you. know, have meaningful work in other. ways. But when there is this family. enterprise that you're supporting, I do.

think that's a huge contribution and. that it should have been acknowledged in. the divorce. Mhm. I I want to talk about this idea that. runs through the book that healing. doesn't always come with reconciliation. Mhm. Yes. >> that's one of the things that comes. clear here. How did you come to accept. that you can heal even when the apology. or the explanation. >> Mhm. or the why Mhm. did this happen to.

me never comes? It's it's very hard. It's very hard to um to move beyond it. when you don't have that kind of neat. wrapping up. And an apology would have. done it, too. Or an acknowledgement. would have done done it, too. But I. didn't get the explanation. I did not. get the acknowledgement, either. Of the. pain that he had caused. So, I think the. only thing that worked was. really just moving it to the side and.

really focusing on the type of work I. wanted to do, the things like my my. legal cases and. having sort of that existential peace. with. um a vacuum of knowing. You know, just. sort of like parking it somewhere in my. head. Mhm. And and the where I park it. with him is what he said the first day, which is that a switch went off. And that's what I believe. I think a. switch went off. There were the whispers over the years.

on the financial story, but I I that's I. think I just had to park it somewhere. and then move on from there. And accept. that that's it. I really just had to. accept I wasn't going to get anything. else. >> That you're never going to get the. answer. >> Yep. Okay. So, the New York Times. recently published an interview with. you. And when they reached out to your. ex-husband, he provided the statement. He said, "While I disagree with many of. her recollections as well as her overall. mischaracterization of my relationship. with my children, I do not wish to. comment in more detail in order to. protect them from further violations of.

their privacy other than to say that I. continue to lovingly support and be. lovingly supported by my children." What. do you think of that response? I was. actually happy that he responded. There's been so much silence that I was. glad that he spoke up said something. And I don't disagree with some of it. I. I I think that he has been always loving. with them and they've been loving and. supportive of him. Um and I'm glad for. that. I'm really grateful for that. Um. that they have that kind of rapport. But I don't think I mischaracterized him.

um in the book either during the. marriage or after the marriage. I was. very very careful with my words because. I knew my children would be reading. this. Um and what I hope. >> What do your children think of the book? They they're they're funny. They I I I. printed it and put it on my desk and I. said come read it whenever you want to. And it sat there for 3 weeks. And then I. found my girls reading it in bed and. then it was on the floor. I think kids. just don't take it as seriously as we. all do.

>> Yeah. Um I think they're very proud of. me. Um and they're also very loving and. supportive of their dad. So it's like. they have they have both things. Yes. Um. but I think that um what I hope I've. done which felt really important to me. is to recreate. what he was as a father during all those. years and all the wonderful things that. he did with them and and all because. when it ends the way mine did all of. that kind of gets erased Mhm. for me and. for kids and for him. And I wanted that.

to be preserved and protected. >> the wood that night. >> He was. He was doing all of that and he. was clamming and he was taking them to. musicals and and um I didn't want that. to be lost and I hope that some part of. him is glad that there there's a record. of that. What is your relationship with. your husband ex-husband? It is cordial. We will communicate with he sent me the. flood insurance bill that he received um. for the house or we will communicate. about um my youngest graduation which is.

in May. >> Mhm. Um so it's cordial. >> to the graduation. >> We will both go to the graduation. Very. important to her that he be there. Mhm. Um so there's there's no anger and it's. cordial but it is not close and I don't. think it will ever be close. Mhm. Are you I was saying to your mother I. know she's proud of you. Are you proud. of yourself for writing this book? I am. I am. I'm really I I can't quite. believe it actually. I can't quite. believe that I have um. announced now to the the entire world.

that um my husband left me. Um that this is now in print everywhere. It's you know it's kind of an. embarrassing story but I have always. seen the purpose in it. I've always. imagined that one reader who's going. through it who feels very alone and that. this might reach them. Um and I I just. am. so excited and proud that I you know. took each step and that I was able to. write this and and get it published and. um that it's now out there in the world.

Yes. It's out there in the world. >> Mhm. Best seller. Best seller. Thank you Belle Burden. thank you for joining me on my porch. And thank you to you Amanda for being a. part of our conversation. I know that by. sharing your story I mean because so. many women have already talked about it. that you have validated the experience. of countless countless women who've been. betrayed who have felt abandoned who. were lied to who didn't understand who. were told they were crazy. You're giving.

hope and that is such a beautiful thing. Thank you so much. >> Strangers it's a memoir of marriage. available wherever books are sold but. you're going to see your story in here. if you've been through any kind of. betrayal any kind of divorce. Thank you. Thank you so much. You can subscribe to. the Oprah podcast on YouTube and follow. us on Spotify Apple podcast or wherever. you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks. everybody.