Oprah & Shaka Senghor on How to Escape Life’s Hidden Prisons

Hey there everybody. I am so glad to. meet up with you here on the Oprah. podcast. And it is always my great hope. that the conversations that you see here. or listen to here can serve to open or. expand the aperture of your life. And on. this episode, I really hope we do that. because we're exploring this question. What does it mean to be truly free? What would that look like? And.

importantly, more importantly, what. would it feel like inside yourself for. you? And consider asking yourself, what. is holding you back from pure freedom. I'm here with best-selling author Shaka. Senor. Welcome back to the tea house. >> I'm so excited to be here and thanks so. much for having me. >> 10 years. >> 10 years. Our 10 year anniversary. Incredible. Yeah. Let me tell everyone. listening and watching that Shaka and I.

first met here 10 years ago and as we. were saying coming in a lot of living. has happened. >> uh with both of us since then. >> Yeah. >> When I first met Shaka Senor it had been. about 6 years since he got out of prison. after serving 19 years. Many of them in. solitary confinement for killing a young. man when Shaka himself was just 19. It. is one of my most memorable interviews. ever. We talked about his troubled life. that led to that fateful day.

>> You just had an aha there. >> There. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Wow. >> What Shaka has achieved in this decade. since that conversation is truly. extraordinary. His book, Writing My. Wrongs, became a New York Times. bestseller. He landed and left a. high-powered corporate job, started his. own business, even collaborated with the. rapper Nas on a hit song. His new book, How to Be Free, is a must- readad for. anybody looking to manifest their own.

vision of freedom. What's your advice to. anyone who is stuck needing to forgive. or be forgiven with how to be free? Shaka has written a workbook filled with. hard-earned life lessons and practical. exercises that he uses, and you can too, to liberate both body and mind. Ooh, I. love that. I fell in love with my mind. I love this question of being free.

>> So, I want to dive right into it because. um it's your newest book, How to Be. Free. How to be free, a proven guide to. escaping life's hidden prisons. I saw. this title and I thought, whoa, how to. be free. Isn't that one of the core. things that we all are striving for? And. what made you write this? Because 10. years ago, you wrote a book called. Writing My Wrongs, which I just love. that title. >> Yeah. >> And how to be free. You've been free.

now. >> Yeah. >> For how many years? >> Coming up on 15 years. Um, so it's. really amazing to even think about that. part of my journey after spending 19. years to now be 15 years this side of. freedom and to be able to live this. experience is really what inspired the. book. >> Yeah. >> And you were inspired because you have. conversations with other people and you. realize there are many people who are. not like you. They hadn't been to a real.

prison, hadn't been incarcerated behind. bars, but are incarcerated in their own. self-imposed bars. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, it's been one of the. most incredible parts of my journey is. to think about what does it even mean to. be free? Uh, and obviously I had the. kind of very real experience of being. physically incarcerated. But what came. up for me was that I was free before I. ever got out of prison. I was actually. free before I even knew I was getting. out of prison. Uh but I was also. incarcerated before I went in because I.

had bought into a narrative that my life. could only have very limited outcomes. And so when I got out and I started. >> Okay. So let's start with that. You were. incarcerated before you went into. prison. >> Absolutely. >> Tell us what that means. >> Yeah. So the mindset that I embrace this. narrative that my life can only have two. outcomes. I would be dead or in jail. before I was 21. And so I live within. this very limited belief about what. >> that was its own incarceration. >> That was my own prison, the own hidden. prison. And so I began to live my life.

through that lens and it produced that. outcome. I ended up being that. environment. And then when I had this. awakening, um, you know, I was doing. this journaling and just really trying. to answer this question of like how did. I end up here and what's next for me? >> And this was how many years into your. into your imprisonment and into your. incarceration? This was roughly about. eight or nine years in. I was in. solitary confinement and really coming. to terms with like what my life had. become. And I started journaling and. just asking these hard questions. How.

did I end up here? And what I discovered. was that all these things had happened. early in my childhood. The trauma, the. abuse, the violence, and most. importantly was the narrative that I. embraced. >> and also the choices that you made as a. result of that narrative. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And that was one. of the most powerful things that if I. can choose based on this negative. narrative and create these negative. outcomes, what would happen if I chose. positive narrative and started to live. my life with those outcomes in mind?

>> Cuz you could really physically see that. for yourself when you're journaling and. solitary confinement. You have a lot of. time. >> Yeah. >> And you were able to absolutely go. through the patterns that had put you. exactly where you were. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it was steps and it was steps. like any other thing that you want to. build out. There are steps you have to. take. And I took steps that led me to. prison. So I was like, what are the. steps necessary to lead me out of it and. lead me up into the greatest sense of. what it means to be free? And that.

journaling really opened up all the. possibilities because I fell in love. with my mind. >> Oo, I love that. I fell in love with my. mind. And so long before you were. actually. let out of the walls of the prison, >> you felt that you had liberated yourself. within the walls of the prison. Tell us. about that. >> Absolutely. Yeah. What I what I. discovered in that in that space was. that I can go wherever I wanted to go in.

my mind and they could take me to places. far beyond the prisons. But more. importantly, what it did is it showed me. that there's still possibility. You. still have life left. And if you can. dream, you can actually achieve it. Like. it was really like even though it's one. of those things we hear all the time, you know, conceive it, dream it, believe. it, and it'll happen. >> It really became a mantra for me. And I. just started writing down here's what I. want to happen in my life. And I've. realized that writing it down was just. part of it. Uh and I, you know, I.

encourage people to journal, but it's. also active journaling. What are the. steps that I'm going to take to make. this become reality? >> So active journaling. So give us an. example you would write down. >> So I wrote down that I wanted to finish. something because what I learned during. my journalism is I had never completed. anything. I never graduated high school. I never followed up going to the. military. I always started things but. never finished anything. So one of the. first things for me was you have to. complete something. And that something.

was writing a book. And I gave myself a. very defined timeline to do it. 30 days. you have to write a book. And that was. the action step. And what I said to. myself when I wrote that down, if I. finish this book in 30 days, my life can. be anything that I imagined it to be. And I did it. >> And that's how writing my wrongs came. >> That was the beginning of my writing. journey, which led to writing my wrongs. eventually. >> Yes. Yes. And so I want to say that I. think that this book, How to Be Free, a.

proven guide to escaping life's hidden. prisons, is um it's a guide. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Uh for anybody looking to tear down. their own self-imposed barriers to. getting free. And you write on page. four, how to be free, that prison, you. say prison is designed to break you. the. walls, you say the rules, the routine, it's all meant to just strip you down. until you forget who you are. And what.

you discovered is that the most powerful. prisons aren't the ones made of concrete. and steel, but they are the ones that we. carry with us that are built from our. anger and our shame and our trauma and. our self-doubt. So, is that why you. wanted to write this book? >> Absolutely. You know, on on my journey, when I put writing my wrongs out, people. would come up and share stuff with me. that they said they had never shared. before. A child who committed suicide, a. dysfunctional marriage, a failure at. job. And they would say something about.

having a conversation really opened them. up and liberated them. And so I started. just kind of interrogating this idea of. like what keeps people locked in place. And these things just kept coming back. grief, shame, anger, and the more. forgiven, the inability to forgive. >> Yeah. >> And the more I kept coming back to that, I started to see it. >> in people from all walks of life, which. was the thing that was mindblowing to me. cuz, you know, we we come with these. narratives where we think we got. people's other people's lives figured.

out. Oh, they're successful, so they. can't have problems. They're wealthy, they can't have problems, they're this, they're that. And then you start to talk. to people and you realize we all have. it. You know, we all have things that. we're working through and sometime we're. not even aware that, you know, we're. working through them. >> and that everybody is just here doing. the best they know how at any given. moment. So, I know that uh forgiveness. for you has become like a healing agent. in your life and you received it from. >> you write this in writing my wrongs. godmother of the young man that you had.

shot and killed and that's what landed. you in prison. You also gave forgiveness. to the man who killed your younger. brother. Yeah. Sherrod. What's your. advice to anyone who is stuck needing to. forgive or be forgiven? >> That that part of my journey has been so. profound because you know when you. receive forgiveness you forget that. sometime in life you may have to forgive. someone and it can be so complex. It's.

not it's not an easy thing. You know, my. brother was murdered in uh 2021. and it was heartbreaking because my gut. reaction was all the negative things. that come with losing a loved one and. then I thought about this person's soul. like what led him down that path and it. was really having empathy and compassion. for his journey um because I had my own. experience. So there was carrying the. duality of guilt while trying to grieve. and then reconciling that through what.

what have I been teaching in the world? What have I been saying to people all. along? And now it comes front and center. in my own life. And I think that's the. power of what this book is really about. is that true freedom doesn't come. without the work. You're always going to. be confronted with the work. You're. always going to have a thing to. challenge you to to think broader about. what it is that you're sharing in the. world. And I think people always miss. the point of forgiveness because you. really do it for yourself. Absolutely. >> You do it to free yourself so that.

you're not carrying around this. >> uh ball of anger, this grudge, this need. to revenge, you release it. So it. doesn't mean you now want to go sit and. have a meal right. >> with with the man who shot your brother. It means you're able to find some peace. in it. >> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, cuz I mean. that was the gut reaction was the anger, you know, the gut reaction of my family. which is natural to be upset, to be. heartbroken, heartbroken. Yeah. >> And so now it's like, okay, do I want to.

carry that for the next 20, 30 years? Uh, do I want to show that as you know, as I move through life, you know, I have. a young son, I have mentees, I have. people who look up to me. How do how do. I navigate that, you know, for me? And, you know, it's a heavy weight to carry. to have that level of anger uh just. hanging over your head. So when you were. 17, you were shot by a man named. Terrence. >> Yeah. >> And I think this is so remarkable. You. write about receiving a letter from. Terrence 32 years later.

>> What does it say about the weight or the. burden that he reached out all those. decades later? >> It's it is one of the most powerful and. complex experiences I've ever had in my. life. When I first got the letter, there. was a full range of emotions that went. through my mind because I've never. really saw this guy's face. That. shooting was our only encounter, which. was about 30 seconds. And I didn't. realize that that inability to see this. guy's face had haunted me all these. years. And how he came about even.

knowing who I was. >> But that guy. >> shooting you is what sent you on another. path cuz that's when you went and got. your own gun. >> Yeah. >> It was the cycle. >> Yeah. You know, and when I when I got. that letter, >> you know, I bristled up. My body just. tensed up with all the. >> Where were you? What was going on in. your life? >> I was actually home. I was at home in LA. and you know, I was outside and it's. beautiful, sunny. >> Mhm. >> And you know, I opened the letter and I. was just like, whoa.

>> Like, and all the things that moment. came flashing back and then I was like, I got to see this guy's face. So, I got. on the computer and I looked him up cuz. he's still in prison. And just seeing. his face like it felt like the weight of. the world came off my shoulders. >> really. >> because I was able to humanize this guy. and he was no longer this boogeyman that. just kind of hid in the shadows of my. >> So how did he find you and why did he. write you? >> So he found me because another guy was. reading my book in prison and passed it. on to him. He started reading it and he. was like, "Oh my god, this is the guy I.

shot and here's what the outcomes of his. life was as a result of that moment.". and he took so much responsibility for. that moment and I I still have complete. agency over that decision. But I. understand how he would arrive at how. one incident can spiral somebody into, you know, a incident that changed their. life. >> That's right. Because that incident. caused you to start carrying a weapon. yourself. >> and everything that resulted from that. >> Yeah. >> So, is it true that you've not written. him back yet? So, I started writing it.

and then I didn't finish it and then I. put it up and I was like, you know, I. don't I don't owe him a letter. Um, you. know, and I think that's one of the. things about forgiveness, you know, it's. not about him. It was really about me. And what I realized was like, what. matters in my life today? Who are the. people around me today that matter that. I can forgive and build deeper. relationships with? And he wasn't one of. them. Um, and and I'm okay with that. you know, I forgiven him and, you know, I hope for the best life outcomes for.

him, but I didn't feel it was necessary. for me to follow through with with. writing that letter. >> But you had started to write a letter. >> I did start to write it. >> And what did you want to say at that. time? >> Well, I wanted to say thank you for. finally revealing your face. I thought. that was really really important uh part. of my journey and that I appreciate. >> But you didn't even realize how haunted. you were by not knowing. >> Yeah. >> Cuz he really is then the boogeyman. >> Yeah. He's literally a ghost. He was. just like a phantom. Um and and just to. having the courage to say, "I'm sorry. I.

imagine in an environment that he's in. cuz I've been there, it's not the. easiest environment to be apologetic. u or to say you was wrong about. something and you know, 32 years later. >> admit anything.". >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz it's not even encouraged. in that environment. And so I thought. that was brave of him, you know, and. that's that's what I would have said. I. thought that was a brave step to take. and knowing that, you know, he's he's. very vulnerable to even reach out. because I still have a lot of influence. in that environment and he didn't know. how healed I am or where I'm at in my. journey. So, just a courage to say, you.

know, I'm going say I'm apologize to. this guy who can potentially do me harm. You know, I thought that was courageous. >> But you you you haven't responded to his. letter, but you do say that that letter. helped you in the healing process with. your own mother. How? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I actually wrote my. mother a letter and it. >> So he wrote you a letter and then you. thought you wrote your mother a letter? >> Yeah, I wrote my mother a letter and you. know my mother and I had a very complex. relationship. you know, going back to. all the things that I had written about. before and what I've learned most about.

forgiveness is. >> Yes. I just want to share with this. audience, I'm going to bring it up. because it is in in the book. It's. certainly in in um writing my wrongs. that that siminal moment for me was when. you walked into the kitchen as a. 9-year-old boy with your report card and. your mom throws a pot of whatever she. was cooking. >> at you. And in that moment, everything. changed for you. You know, >> one time I was coming home from school. and I was like the smart kid in the.

family. And so my grades was like the. thing that I was most proud of. And so. came home super excited to. >> How old are you? >> I'm probably in the fourth grade, so I'm. assuming like eight now. I'm not sure. Yeah. Right. And I came in and she was. at the kitchen sink washing dishes and I. was like, you know, ma, I got this score. on my test. >> And she rolled around and threw a pot. with like such force that it broke the. towels on the wall. >> But that's a life shattering moment when.

you think about it. >> Devastating. >> That's a life shattering moment when you. think about being an 8-year-old or. 9year-old coming home and saying, "Mom, look at my grades.". [Music]. So, you've had a volatile relationship. with your mom over the years. >> It took her 17 years to come to visit. you. >> Yeah. >> When you were incarcerated. >> And after you get the letter from. Terrence, who shot you and sent you on a. spiraling path downward, you then are.

moved to free yourself to write your. mother. >> Yeah. And so when I sat down to write. the letter, I thought I had forgiven my. mother. You know, when my mother came to. see me on that visit, I was like, you. know what, ma, I forgive you. I've moved. on. But what I realized is that I was. holding on to this idea that my. forgiveness would somehow change her, which would in turn change our. relationships. And so that that little. boy part of me that just wanted to be. nurtured by my mother, I thought I can. change that. And it wasn't until.

>> this is such a good point that you're. making that if you're going to forgive. with conditions in play. >> It's really not forgiveness. >> It's really not forgiveness. >> Yeah. And I learned it through a. conversation with my older brother. We. were talking. >> and he just said to me, you know, I. forgave mama and then she did this again. and I forgave her and I and it just. struck me and I was like, "Whoa, I've. done the same thing. I put all these. conditions around it without even. interrogating how she even got to become. the woman that she was." And so I was. like, you know, if I'm going to get to.

this deep sense of forgiveness, I just. got to know her story. And if she's. willing to go on that journey with me, the possibilities are are infinite. And. so we went on that journey and we spent. time together. We talked deeply and my. mother shared things with me that was um. was heartbreaking. Um. yeah, just to to think about what her. young life was. And I don't think we do. enough of that when it comes to our. parents, right? There there are there. are heroes or.

>> Yeah. We just say we say this term hurt. people hurt people. Yeah. But you don't. realize what the hurt was like for those. people. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so with my mother, she. was willing to open up and she just. shared all these things that she had. went through, the abuses, the assaults. on her body. >> Um and she was willing to to really. share that with me. And I thought it was. one of the most powerful things that she. could ever do. And so I wrote her a. letter just letting her know how much I. appreciated uh her opening up in that. way and it just allowed me to see her.

and it kind of reversed the kind of. dynamics in our relationship where I. feel more parental. I feel more like I. want to protect that little girl that. didn't get protected um who became that. woman that hurt her own kids. And so you. know it's it's that's the power of like. what real forgiveness is. And will you. remove all the expectations that someone. will become different or that somehow. it's for them? >> That's true freedom. >> That's true freedom. And it's like I. have so much grace for her. I have so.

much joy whenever we're together and. when we're not. Um I have grace and and. joy when it's going good and when it's. not and it's fine, >> you know. Um. >> so that's really the meaning of. unconditional. >> Absolutely. >> Meaning I'm going to forgive you. I'm. gonna love you regardless of what you. do. >> Yeah. And you have to just. >> That's hard though. That's hard. >> But but you know why it's hard is. because the hidden part of it is we. still have these conditions, right? And. the conditions are. >> I'm going to do this, but what I want is.

for you to change. >> Yeah. And if you don't change, just. don't hurt me again. The reality is that. the people that you forgive can possibly. hurt you again. And then you have to. decide, okay, do I want to go back into. that door again? you know, and and. that's the complex things with. especially with parental relationships. >> Yes. >> Um because it's just your parents, you. know, or your children. And that means. that old things can be brought up over. and over, they can be triggering. Uh but. once I release the things, the things. that used to trigger me, I'm just like,

that's that's her. That got nothing to. do with me, you know? Well, don't you. think too when you can't. forgive without conditions being placed. upon the forgiveness that it's really. challenging to experience true joy? >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Isn't it? >> Yeah. And I mean joy is is one of the. great markers of freedom. >> That's like how do you really show up in. your life and and you know what are the. things that feel pleasant in your spirit. and in your being? And you can't have.

that if you're holding on to anger and. you're holding on to shame for things. that don't even no longer exist. Like. >> I think that's a great line. Joy is one. of the great markers of freedom. >> Absolutely. >> And I also know that you believe and you. talk about this in how to be free that. resilience is a spiritual principle. Explain that. >> Yeah. I mean you think about how we got. here. Like we were born through a. resilient effort. U the biological. makeup of how a sperm reaches a egg. Like there's a fight there.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. People get into this kind of. comparative Olympics where they're like, "Well, I didn't have it as hard as you.". And so, I'm not as resilient as you, but. I'm like, I didn't go into prison. knowing I was resilient. You know, I was. faced with adversity that forced me to. make a decision um of how do I want to. live my life? Do I want to forge ahead. or do I want to just quit? And what I. knew was embedded in my DNA was. resistance and struggle and and to. overcome adversity. And we all have. that. We're born with it. um we you know. sometime we give it up. We give up. agency over how we're going to take a.

stance on something we believe or care. about. Uh but it's so spiritual and it's. it's the the thing about life, you know, as I just mentioned like you don't you. don't get to the other side of these. things without having to work for it. Forgiveness, I had to work for that. You. know, that that idea that people are. redeemable. The creator said, "You know. what? Let's see how much you really. believe that. I'm going to put the. person who shot you right back in your. face. I want to put the person who shot. your brother right back in your face. What do you really believe? And that's.

the spiritual nature of like really. working through something that's very. tough. And the the opposite of that is I. could have went right back into the. anger. I could have shrunk right back. into the space that didn't allow me to. be happy and joyful. And that's the. hidden part of of the prisons. >> I know you believe in mentors because. you are one. >> Absolutely. >> To so many people. And one of the great. mentors in your life is Ben Horowitz. Yes. who is a very well-known venture. capitalist in Silicon Valley and one of. the founders of the legendary firm uh.

Andre and Horowitz and you write about. his uh instrumental guidance in your. life. Now some of you may know Ben is. the author of two New York Times. bestsellers the hard thing about hard. things and what you do is who you are. Ben is joining us via Zoom. Welcome Ben. Hi Ben. >> Hey Oprah. How are you? Good to see you. Hey bro. >> Uh, so Ben, I'm going to ask you to tell. the story of how you and Shaka first. met. I think I have something to do with.

that actually. >> You did. You did. So you were screening. Belief. >> Yeah. >> And uh, you screened it in Silicon. Valley. >> Yeah. I done a series on religions all. over the world and I was screening it. and you you had been gracious enough to. interview me in Silicon Valley. >> Yeah. So because I had to interview you, I was terrified. um just cuz you're. really good at interviewing. And so I. thought, okay, that this is hope she. doesn't judge me. And then I got back. like, you know, maybe I could ask you a.

few questions about interviewing. beforehand and and that would help me. And uh you said something uh was really. insightful. You said, you know, I always. ask people before I interview them what. their intention is. Um and then that. they have to trust me to get that. intention. She says, I'll give you an. example. Um, and the example was, you. know, you said, "I just had this guy on. my show, Super Soul Sunday. He had. tattoos, dreadlocks, big muscles. He's. real scary guy. Just got out of prison.".

And I asked him before the interview, I. said, you know, I'll help you get your. intention, but you have to tell me what. it is. And he said, "Well, my intention. is that, you know, people won't be. judged by the very worst thing uh that. happens in their life.". >> Um, that people can be redeemed. And so. then you proceeded to tell about the. interview. Um, and it was a story that. you just mentioned. >> That still makes me want to tear up. >> Yeah. >> And I told my wife, uh, Felicia, who you. know, and, uh, she got very excited. So, she reached out to your team, got the.

galley for his book. And so, we read the. book. And then the next thing I know, she says, "Oh, you know, I Facebook. messaged Shaka and you know, he's going. to come over to dinner tomorrow night.". And I was like, "Are you crazy? Did you. read that book?" I was like, "That guy. was in prison. He's a prison gang. member." And so I said, "Look, re reset. it at a restaurant, you know, like we'll. go to restaurant. >> Don't bring him to the house, Felicia. We could just go home. Don't invite him. to the house.". >> So then she goes, "Uh, okay." And we.

moved it to a restaurant and then we. meet and it was really, uh, I would say. a little bit shocking for me because in. talking to him, he actually sounded. like, you know, I work with CEOs all. day. He sounded like a really, really. advanced CEO. like he knew all about. like psychology, motivations, systems, how they work together, how you. get to the truth. And I was like, "Wow, I could learn a lot from from this guy. about how he thinks about these things.".

And then actually the other thing that. was very insightful to me or like. shocking which I I really wanted to know. the answer to was, you know, there's. this thing about solitary confinement, which it's very bad. there's big. movements against it because you know. you go crazy after two or three weeks in. there. He was in it for seven years and. like no question he came out like better. than when he went in and I was so. interested I was like how did that h.

like what happened and it's actually the. story of this book which is. >> it's when he rewrote his own narrative. >> it's when he finally had the time and. space to do that and that was just so. because so much of achievement and. building something great is being able. to get to your own truth um and be. comfortable with that. His truth was so. scary and dark. >> I know. And and to be able to use. solitary confinement, that confinement.

to actually explore his inner world that. way and to be truthful with himself. about the results is what's so. fascinating. And what's so fascinating. about the first book, Writing My Wrongs, and what's so fascinating now about how. to be free, that you were able to really. tap into what that looks and feels like. even before he was let go. You say Ben taught you an important. lesson about failure. What is that? >> Yeah. So, you know, Ben and I, we talk a.

lot about success. And I remember asking. what does success mean? And he said to. me, it's a series of smart decisions. >> and a step by step. And I ended up. asking him that question again recently. and he was like it's the same thing with. failure. It's a series of steps taken in. the opposite direction. And I was like. whoa. Cuz you know it's like we can. think about the steps toward something. positive and progressive but we don't. also always think about failure as it's. a series of things that you also do.

Failing to show up, failing to be. curious, failing to follow through. All. these things are steps that lead in one. very clear direction. you're gonna fail. Um, and that was just it was so. mind-blowing to to hear that his. perspective on that. >> I think what's so mind-blowing is that. you had told Felicia, "This guy's a real. criminal. Don't invite him to the. house.". >> And now you guys are like best buddies. >> Well, thank you, Ben, for joining us. Thank you for for for being a part of. it. Thank you. >> Thank you. We have listeners of our.

podcast who have questions for you, Shaka, because I know many people when. they hear your story and read your. books. They want to know how you found. freedom inside your mind. And Donnie, who's joining us now, Donnie, tell us. what's happening down there in Atlanta. Oh, hi. I'm Donnie. So, I grew up in a. single parent household. My dad was. alcoholic. My mom had her own business, so she was working a lot. So in many. ways I raised myself. This allowed me to.

become strong, goal driven, also a. goalgetter. That drive motivated me to. even teach myself how to code and. transition into tech after I graduated. uh with my master's degree. I love my. job. I love climbing the corporate. ladder and I love my team. However, I. see myself shrinking whenever I'm around. strong personalities. I started to. realize that a lot of the patterns that. I noticed were from my childhood where I.

would like treat myself small. I would. tend to be more self-sufficient. where I would avoid conflict as well as. overwhelming situations. And even though I'm in a supportive. environment right now, I still feel. those survival mechanism rising up. So, my question for you is, how do I get the. freedom to be my authentic self. regardless of who's in the room? >> That's such an incredible uh story. First of all, I mean, you're you're.

incredibly talented to, you know, and. self-driven, which is very inspiring. So, your sense of self-awareness u is. you already got like a foot in the door. Uh that cuz that's a big deal. A lot of. people navigate through life with. imposttor syndrome. They're not even. aware of how they're showing up. And I. think there's power in recognizing that. within yourself. And and what one of the. things that I've learned on this journey. is that there were two things that I. attribute to like success in my life. now, right? Um resilience allowed me to.

survive, but being literate about life. allows me to thrive. And what I mean. about being literate about life is that. you're in an environment where you're. already winning by every metric. imaginable. >> just because you're there. >> Yeah. because you're there and you got. yourself there. >> You already. >> um Yeah, you're you're and I mean you're. you're in a tech. I I worked in tech for. three years and it's a tough competitive. environment and the fact that you taught. yourself to code and now you're in that. environment thriving like life literacy.

is about really understanding where are. you really winning at and how are you. telling yourself that story? And you got. to just put the work in over and over. Like I I still have my own mantras to. this day. Like I get up and I'm like go. get it. I got two versions of it. I got. the soft, gentle kind of affirming uh uh. conversation that I have myself. And. then I have one that's more aggressive. when I'm when I'm feeling like I'm. slipping back into the self-doubt. Like. those narrative, they don't they don't. disappear. You just got to manage them.

And I think figuring out what is the. thing that you can do every day to. affirm your success and whatever it is. Um because those small victories really. do matter and it's easy for us to. overlook them. Um, but part of part of. being present, part of being mindful is. like really leaning into what it's like. happening in the moment. I mean, like. right now in this moment you're in, you. know, everything that you've done led. you here. And that's incredible. And. somebody's going to be watching this. that's being inspired. They're like, "Wow, Donnie taught herself to code. I'm.

about to go cold." Uh, and so it's a. constant, it's work, you know, it takes. time. Uh, but I'll say affirm yourself. every day, no matter what. And in those. conversations, recognize that you're not. the only one that's navigating that that. interior conversation. Uh, working in. Silicon Valley for years, I found that a. lot of people fake it till they make it. Um, because it is such a fast-paced, hard driven culture. But the fact that. you're there, that says a lot about who. you are, and you just got to continue to. say a lot about who you are to yourself.

every day. And also I think me if I may. add here I think that one of the reasons. why you play yourself small is because. you don't realize how big you are. already. So everybody knows I have a. girl school and I had that girl school. for 18 years now and I recently had a. study done this past year to find out. where all the girls were in their lives. So I've had 830 girls graduate from my. school. 600 graduate from college,

190 still in college. And so we as a. part of that survey uh asked the girls, you know, what does success look like. for them? >> And nobody, I guess, had asked them that. question. And many of them said that. when they first came to the school, they. were comparing themselves to me because. it's the Oprah Winfrey Leadership. Academy. And so they thought that going. to the leadership academy meant you had. to be a leader like Oprah Winfrey or. Nelson Mandela who was there to help me. open the school. But as a part of the.

interview, they were asked, "What does. success look like to you now?" And two. of the girls were actually out uh to. dinner doing the survey and they looked. at each other and said, "Look at us. We. just came from the gym. We both have our. own car. We are sitting at a restaurant that. neither our grandfather nor our mothers. nor our fathers would ever be able to. sit at. We are successful just because.

we are here in this moment. Even though. we're not where we think we should be, we certainly aren't where we could have. been. M. >> and so when you realize that you are. there coding and taught yourself. >> that you were able to do that in spite. of an alcoholic father and a single mom. >> You know myangelo used to always say I. wouldn't take nothing from my journey. now. And I will assure you Donnie as one.

who's lived longer than all of y'all um. that every single thing that has. happened to you not one of those things. is wasted. M. >> and every single thing that happened. just as Shaka shows us in his book How. to be free and all of his other works, everything is happening to grow you to. the next level for yourself. Absolutely. >> And you are here to meet that rising and. you are capable of doing it because. you've already done it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You've already done it.

>> Yeah. >> You've already done it. So stop. comparing yourself to anybody cuz nobody. has your story. >> That's right. >> Your story is yours to claim. Nobody has. your story. So if you're looking around. at what he did or she did or they did, they didn't come through what you came. through. They didn't have to endure what. you've endured. They didn't have the. struggles you had or the sorrows or the. joys or the triumphs, any of it. And so. when you when you when you do what Shaka. did, when you really do a true. self-examination. of how you got to be here, you will be.

walking around strutting. You will look. like that emoji that that emoji with the. red dress on. But look at what you've. been through and you're still here and. still rising. >> And you're hanging out with Oprah today. >> And still I rise. All right. >> And Shaka, I'm not I'm not bad to hang. out with. >> Shaka is a great one, too. Thanks, Donnie. Thank you so much. >> Lisa is joining us now from Seattle. Lisa, hi. >> Hi, Shaka. >> Hi, Oprah. >> Hi. I hear you're at a big time. crossroads in your life. And what's.

going on with you? Well, I am an only daughter of three. older brothers and I grew up knowing. that my family just thoroughly loved me. and adored me and and we had a lot of. great advantages growing up. And on one. end it looked wonderful on the outside. and on the inside there were some real. hardships and I had two brothers that. were drug addicts and one of them had. sexually abused me and I didn't feel.

like I could share what was going on. There was just my parents were. mitigating a lot of the crises that. come with having addicts in the home. So, it was really just hard to. understand uh how to feel safe and trust. not only others but trust myself and my. decision- making. And so, by the time I was in my mid20s, I had been married and divorced and had. lost my dad and both of those brothers.

had died of drug overdoses. >> And so, I was went on a real healing. path. And I always knew that I wanted to. help people through the experiences that. I had, especially young women. Just. didn't know what that looked like and. what avenue. And when my mom passed a few years back, I went to a ranch in Colorado and. experienced the wonderful benefits of. equin therapy. And I just thought, this. is it. This is the avenue and this is my. purpose. And God has just laid the groundwork for.

me. I just a year ago I was very. fortunate to just have a horse drop into. my life and now I have the opportunity. to move to Tennessee and get some land. for horses and really pursue this. And yet at the same time I feel really. guilty because I have uh my last. remaining sibling here that doesn't. marry and doesn't have children and. really relies on me significantly. And so this leads to my question for. you, Shaka, is how did you learn to.

trust yourself. and to follow the path that you're on? >> Before he answers that, >> yeah, >> you had a horse drop into your life. >> Horses don't drop into people's lives. >> I know. I had a very. miracle of a situation. >> Okay, so I'm just telling you. I'm just. saying a horse drops into your life, you. got the horse pillow behind you. We see. that horses are important to you.

>> That is a sign. I'm a big believer in. signs. And now let let Shaka answer the. question. >> Yeah, that's that's I mean it's it's. true. That's similar to where I was. going. It's like what what is life. showing you and what is the divine, you. know, part of your experience showing. you and it's all the signs are like. there, you know, you you like over said. a horse doesn't drop into your life. For. me, what it was was that. accomplishing the small things just to. the one step, right? For you to even say.

what happened to you, that's such a. thing to celebrate. Um that you have the. courage to talk about the things that. happened to you. And so for me, what it. was is that when I leaned into the. things that made me feel afraid and I. just could say them out loud or I can. write them out, I started to slowly turn. that guilt into gratitude and be just. thankful that I can even say it. Thankful that I can like write it down. and say, "Hey, this happened to me, but. it's not who I am." Um, and then I just. started to really care for the little.

boy inside. And and what I would. encourage you to do is think about. there's that little girl inside that you. now have the opportunity to protect. Uh. you now have the opportunity to to. nourish, which is like the most. incredible uh part of the gift is that. you get a chance to nourish this little. girl by helping others. And you know, to. to be on this journey, if you really. kind of think about it from instead of. like survivors remorse and survivors. guilt, it's survivors gratitude. Like. you're here. I mean, think about where.

you're at like right in this moment. Like the presence, just bringing. yourself to presence. You're sitting. here having a conversation with Oprah. Winfrey and I. That's a true testament. to like where your your path is leading. you something that's far bigger than. what your past was. >> Yes. And the horse got dropped into your. life by some miracle. >> Thank you. >> And and you now get to use the. experience of the treatment that made. you feel so liberated. You now get to. offer that to somebody else.

>> You now get to offer that to somebody. else. You now get to gift what was. gifted to you and you get to share that. You know, I always think it boils down. to obviously when you read Shaka's. story, he was born to do what he's doing. right now. >> And that horse coming into your life. means your life has been leading you on. a path to where you are right now. Absolutely. and your ability to open up. and do exactly what Shaka said. Instead. of saying, "Oh, I'm so guilty." Say,

"Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for showing me in. such a vivid, profound, and pronounced. way that I'm headed in the right. direction.". And I don't know if that resolves the. guilt, but you will find a way to manage. whatever other needs uh your other. sibling has or whatever is is is. required of you. But clearly, you're. supposed to use the horse experience,

you know, to share with others. >> Absolutely. >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> Absolute gift. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> So, I know there's a young man you want. us to meet. Uh yeah, >> Carter is a 21-year-old sophomore. joining us from his dorm room at Brown. University in Rhode Island. Carter, hi. >> Hey. Hi, Miss Win. >> Hey, welcome to the podcast. I hear. Shaka's been mentoring you since since. you were itty bitty high school. >> Yeah. Yeah, I met him in middle school. What's up, Bunk? Good to see you.

>> Hey, ain't nothing. >> Was he helping you to be free? Was he. helping you to be free? >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. What has he said or done or shown you. that's impacted your life that you think. has helped you to grow in a better. direction? >> Uh I think I think really it's uh it's. been just being uh an incredible mentor. I've come to him in times that have been. really stressful or just problematic in. my life. My parents divorced my.

sophomore year of high school and uh I. took it relatively rough and you know I. came to Shaka and he was uh incredibly. uh helpful. Uh his ability to hold space. uh for what I need in those moments uh. was just incredible. Um he's a a a proud. black man, a wise and compassionate. mentor and uh and the world needs more. of that. >> That's great. What do you want to say. about Carter? >> Carter is one of the wisest young. mentees I have. You know, I remember one. of my favorite moments of hanging out.

with him. This was when we first met. He. had to be around 12. And he was so. curious about who I was and my life. And. I asked his mother. I said, "We is it. okay for me to tell him just a hardcore. truth?" And she was like, "He can handle. it." You know, and I got a chance to. talk to him and share my past. And he. just had so many profound insights. And. now what I really love is when he comes. to the house, he's kind of like a big. brother for Seikku, a model, somebody he. can model. Uh, and Seek's mine. He's way.

cooler than his dad. So, it's the. sweetest thing though, just to see how. those kids look up. And now he's in his. sophomore year in college, uh, doing. incredible. And I'm just super proud. You know, this this kid is going to do. some amazing things in the world. and to. be able to pour into him and to have him. receive that cuz it's not always easy. for uh young men specifically to take. guidance from older men. Uh they put us. out the pastor kind of early these days, you know. So, uh to to have a young man. that says, "Hey, you know, I'm in town.

Can we grab a bite? I just got something. I want to talk to you about." Uh it. really means a lot and it it just makes. me feel uh really valued in a deep way. >> That's wonderful. Thanks for sharing. with us today. So, you've been out of. prison now for 15 years, as we said at. the beginning of this conversation. >> And uh almost as long as you were inside. prison. Yeah. >> And I hear you recently applied for a. pardon. >> Yes. >> For the first time, what would a pardon. mean for you.

>> now that you are already free and you're. writing books about how to be free? So, what would a what would a pardon mean? >> You know, when I when I first put in the. pardon, I thought it would just be a. symbolic gesture. >> Yeah. And what I realized recently, every time that the mail comes and I'm. out looking for that letter, is that. I've wanted it more than I had given. myself permission to believe. And what. it means for me is that I'm now back. part of the tribe. Um, when you have a. felony on your record, you're exiled. Um, and even when you're as successful.

as I've become over this last 15 years, there's still things that come up that's. kind of like that slap on the hand. reminder of this is who you were and. this is who we'll always think you are. And you know, when I was filling out. that paperwork, I had delayed it for a. long time. I was like, "Oh, maybe I get. a lawyer to do it, etc." And I was like, "You know what? You have to do it." And. you know, I've sat. I've carved out the. time to do it. Um, and so for me it's. like just getting granted that would. mean I'm back a part of the tribe. M.

this is a question I probably should. have asked you at the beginning of this. conversation cuz I think that for most. people who think of someone who's been. incarcerated and incarcerated for 19. years and incarcerated on uh you know. been in solitary confinement that the. moment you were released from prison you. would experience freedom in a way that.

We can't even imagine. You know, I still. think of people that I know who are on. death row who haven't seen a moon. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And haven't seen the stars. >> And I would just think, wow, everything. in life would just feel like freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom. >> And yet when I read How to Be Free, >> I recognize that there's so many people. who are released and are still. imprisoned once they're released. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Yes. And and you know, for me, I I still.

have that feeling as if I walked out the. first day. I marvel at life. I am so in. love with life. I'm in love with the. details of life. Uh I'm fascinated by so. many things. I'm curious about so many. things. >> Anthony Ray Hinton, who wrote The Sun. Does Shine, said that when he came out, rain meant so much to him. Just to be. able to feel the rain. >> Yeah. All the details. I love it. And. and I think it's part of, you know, when. I wrote this book is I want people to go. back into that feeling cuz I think we.

get caught up in the mundane of life and. we forget about the beauty of nature. We. forget about the beauty of a casual walk. with a friend. We forget about like. really experiencing food, not just for. nourishment, but as a real experience. Uh we forget about like what joy is, you. know? It's um going back to Ben like we. had these moments where we're just like. dude, let's grab this vinyl and let's. just listen to music and talk about the. details of art that went into creating. this piece of of work. And so to me,

it's like every day is a day of freedom. >> So for someone who's listening to us. today, watching us today, and they want. to begin the journey for themselves to. be free, they should do what? >> They should start journaling. I would. say that's my number one out of. everything else. Like meditation is. incredible, practicing mindfulness, those things take a a little bit of. work. Um, but journaling is something. that we all have access to even with. technology. >> Like if Donnie just sat down and look at. and asked the question, how did I get. here? Yes. >> Is the same question that you asked.

>> You were in solitary confinement asking. it. But asking the question, y'all, wherever you are in your life of how did. I get here? And being able to relate to. your own story like choice by choice by. choice that put you here. >> I mean, allows you to see, look at all. you've endured. >> Yeah. Yeah. And even keeping that. gratitude journal, you know, like I. believe in that. >> What is the most magic thing that's. happened to me today? >> And that that's something that keeps me. so grounded and it helps me get through.

like those tough moments, right? So when. I was going through everything with my. brother, I was like I was just writing, you know, I was writing letters to the. perpetrator. I was just writing out my. thoughts like how do I really feel like. what's living inside my being right now? And then what am I thankful for? You. know, what is the what is the thing that. brought me a sense of joy today? >> Yeah. >> You know, what does that thing look. like? >> The payoff of that is so great. You. know, especially when you come back days. later cuz you move through life and you. can start forgetting about like how many. things did I do this week that was. amazing. It's easy to just move through.

those things and forget about them. But. I try to take it all in. >> Oh, I do too. And I write down the God. winks because you really forget the. things that you know the things that. other people call coincidences or. serendipity or whatever where you just. go like, "Wow, how did that thing. happen?". >> If you don't write it down, you'll. forget it. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. What is one of your favorite. god winks like. >> Oh. Oh, there just like little things. like uh once I was thinking about it was. like a rainy day and I was thinking,

"God, this would be a really good day. for uh soup. >> because when I grew up there was Lassie. There was a show called Lassie.". >> I remember that the Kie the dog. >> The Kie the dog. It was sponsored by. Campbell Soup and at the end of it there. would be a little thing where Timmy's. mother. >> would bring him a bowl of soup and they. would say soup and sandwich goes. together like a soup and sandwich. So, I. always love this idea of soup and. sandwich. I was just thinking, wouldn't. it be great just to have soup and a.

sandwich? And I was walking through my. house and my godmother was staying with. us and she had made a grilled cheese. sandwich and some soup. >> I love it. >> And I just thought, how did you how did. you know? How did Yeah. That Yeah. Yeah. No, >> it's amazing that that you lean into. those moments because I think that's the. the magic of all of this is like how. present are you in your own experience? Do you think you're free? >> I think I'm definitely free. I I feel. like the most liberated um after writing. this book, I feel the most liberated.

I've felt in my life. And I think I've. had two iterations of it. When I was. when I was in solitary and I first. really started kind of buying into this. idea that my life could be different. And it was really just journaling about. it, meditating, being very present, and. really acknowledging it. And like that. acknowledgement is is the big piece of. it. It's like, hey, I thought I had this. thing fully figured out. Um, but I still. have work to do. And and that's the part. of the journey part of it. It's like, you know, the more life you live, the. more experiences you have, the more.

things you're going to encounter that's. going to challenge the way that you. think about and experience life. >> Reason I like the book is because how to. be free, it actually step by step. teaches you how to manifest. >> Yes, >> it's one of my favorite words. how to. manifest freedom for yourself in your. life and how that liberation allows you. to rise to your greatest glory. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you for this book so much for. having. >> Thank you, Shaka. And thank you for. being here today. Thank you, Ben. Thank.

you, Lisa, Donnie, and Carter, for. zooming in with us. Shaka's book is How. to Be Free, and it's available September. 9th wherever books are sold. To all of. you listening and watching, I appreciate. you sharing your valuable time with us. here and uh let's meet up again next. week. Go well everybody. You can. subscribe to the Over Podcast on YouTube. and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcast. or wherever you listen. I'll see you. next week. Thanks everybody.