Oprah & Richard Rohr on Finding Hope in Uncertain Times

Well, it is so nice to be with you all. here on the Oprah podcast. I thank you. for joining me. I know many people um. are feeling. a a a sense of unease right now. Maybe. you are struggling with navigating so. much disruption. I mean, it's hard to. watch the news. I mean, I've pulled way. back from the news. So so much disruption going on in the. world at work or within your own family. And one of my intentions for this.

platform is that it is a place for. conversation that can uplift. uh bring some insight perhaps even. enhance your life and give you a fresher. perspective or a new way to think about. our collective human experience. That's. why I'm still talking after all of these. years. So for a time a time such as. this, I was thinking to myself, who. would be uh a great person to talk to. about the unease so many of us are.

feeling right now, an uncertainty and. for good reason. And then I see that one. of the great spiritual teachers alive. today has written a new book about. exactly what was on my mind and I know. on a lot of yours. It is my pleasure to. welcome once again back to my home for. the third time, >> yes, >> Father Richard Roar. And his current New. York Times best-selling book is called. The Tears of Things. Prophetic wisdom.

for an age of outrage. Beautiful. The. tears of things. I know many people feel. that we are living in an age of outrage. It's it's everywhere. Father Richard Roar was ordained into. the priesthood in the Roman Catholic. Church in 1970. He is a Franciscan. frier, a world-renowned author, spiritual teacher, theologian, and. mystic. >> I don't care what your religion is. Great love and great suffering change. the soul. Awaken the soul.

Father Richard Roar founded the Center. for Action and Contemplation in New. Mexico and has written 42 books, including the bestsellers Falling Upward. and the Universal Christ. [Music]. 42 books you've written. >> And I'm not really that smart. I'm just. They just come. There are so many big. ideas in the tears of things that we.

certainly are not going to have time to. cover it all here. But what does the. title the tears of things mean to you? >> You know, I was the last generation of. priests that had to learn Latin. I was. never very good at it, but the great. Latin uh myth that we studied was. Virgil's Aniad. And in the anidad, he's. a Roman. He goes to Carthage, which was.

their enemy. He's observing a huge. fresco on the wall. And it's a whole. field of dead soldiers. >> Yeah. >> And he uses a phrase that I'm told is by. far the most quoted phrase in Latin. literature. And it seems at first. hearing so innocent. I'll quote the. Latin, don't be impressed. Lacrim. rarerum. The Spanish speakers will.

recognize lacrimma is their word also. for tears. But in he's observing this. that everything seems to be crying. Everything has tears and everything. deserves tears. It's it was his way of. saying what you and I would now call the. tragic sense of life. >> The tragic sense of life that it can't. be ignored. It everybody's life sooner.

or later rushes into tragedy. >> Yeah. So I knew for most people they. won't have all the connotation but thank. you for liking it. >> I liked it. And and I was asking you. before we started this, uh, did the did. the title come first or does the title. come as you're processing? >> If I'd be honest, >> yes, >> it was in my mind for years. >> I've got to write a book called The.

Tears. >> of Things. Yes. >> And it came in my the end of my life. Yeah. I do think it's my last book. >> You do? >> I do. Yeah. >> And why do you think it's your last. book? Well, first my age, uh, but in. some ways it sums up my thinking. Uh, my. spiritual teaching. Uh, I I want to be honest about how most. people have to suffer. The animals now.

are suffering. The planet is suffering. So, it's spreading to every level. And. this generic term, the tears of things, not just the tears of humans, although. they say we're the only ones who. formally cry. >> As a Christian, of course, I knew Jesus'. words. How happy are those who weep? >> We think, is he crazy? What's happy. about that? But I think Yes. >> Yes. But I think it's a transformative.

movement inside the soul. You write this. about tears. You say, "Felt reality is. invariably wept reality." That's a. beautiful line. And wept reality is soon. compassion and kindness. Decisive and harsh judgments slip away. in the tracks of tears. And when we cry, we are revealing our truest, most loving.

self. So how do tears connect us to our truer. self do you think? >> Because they come. unbidden out of the unconscious. Uh most people just suddenly have to. wipe away their tears. They're a little. embarrassed by it. >> Because it isn't object of the will or. the intellect. It comes from somewhere. else than intellect and will. M. >> both positive tears of joy. >> Mhm.

>> and tears of sadness. >> Yeah. When they're spontaneous, it comes. from a place you don't even know. Yes. That's right. You can't even explain. that. >> Yeah. You got it. >> And it and people wipe them away because. it feels unal. >> A little Yeah. Yes. Particularly, you. know, my men's work led me to this. Particularly men. Yeah. You women are. better at it. >> Oh, yeah. We are. >> much better. Except I remember many. years on the Oprah show I would I I had. gotten to the point where I could feel. people's stories, not just hear people's. stories, but I was feeling I was feeling. people's stories. And my friend Gail.

called me up one day and she said, "You're crying too much. You have to. stop this crying.". >> I go, "I'm just I'm just feeling I'm I'm. feeling." She goes, "Well, you need to. shut down some of those feelings because. you're feeling too much." And here's the. thing. I was so moved by this line. Moved in that I thought, "Aha, this is. so true. If we stay with our rage and. resentment too long, and you all. listening to me right now, take this in. >> If we stay with our rage and resentment. too long, we will righteously and.

unthinkingly pass on the hurt in ever. new directions, and we injure our own. souls in ways we don't even recognize. This is killing our postmodern world. When I read that, I I had a big aha. because I went, "Wow, this is why we are. where we are." Because there's so much. rage and resentment that people have now. taken on as their righteous judgment and.

have just passed on those hurt feelings. >> Yeah. >> You know, we say that that phrase all. the time, people hurt people hurt. people. But this sums it up, I think, more accurately. >> Well, it does. You know, I know it's an. ugly and not common word, but. biologists, medical. teachers speak of the amygdala. And that's the part of your nervous. system that gets hooked whenever someone. is speaking to you angrily or fearfully.

And I know it's an ugly phrase, but I. think we have a whole country of hooked. amygdalas. Mhm. And why do you think. there is so much rage and resentment? >> One of the most unfortunate results of. what we call postmodernism. Postmodernism is basically saying, okay, we tried all of these philosophies and. theologies and religions, but basically.

none of them work. And that's called. neihilism. Neil is a Latin word. I'm not. trying to impress you with my Latin, but. it was it was forced on me. Neihill. means nothing. And we live in a very. nehistic country. When heads of state. can get away with telling demonstrable. lies, obvious lies, and people don't just. accept it, but applaud.

Applaud. You're in a neihilistic. culture. And once you've destroyed any. appreciation for truth, once that's. gone, it's all downhill. I mean, I don't. mean to be pessimistic, but you can't. walk around telling total lies and build. a culture or build a civilization or. build a healthy psyche or build a. healthy family when truth is whatever I.

want to be. the truth, what takes over. is not just the amygdala but the ego. >> Well, that's what I think has happened. is that the ego has landed. >> and is in full force right now. >> Full force. >> in every area that we can see. >> The ego is in full. >> and we're not being political except by. effect. We're being just realistic and. honest. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. uh you feel that people. today need to win too much. You say, and.

I think you're so right. I love this. line that you have. You say, "There is. no oneway prophecy. No speaking without. listening." You say, and he also says, >> you're reminding me of things I forgot I. wrote. >> Go ahead. Go ahead. >> And you say the flow must go both ways. or it is not a divine flow. Is this what's creating so much of the. turmoil that we're seeing? You think. >> I like your honing in on both ways?

>> Yes. >> Once you're in the flow, it both flows. in with some ease and out with some. ease. If you're always putting out and. never listening to other people or. letting them influence you, that's not. true prophecy. >> Yeah, it's not true prophecy. >> No. Uhuh. We've largely neglected the. prophets. And that was what led me to write the. book that for 37 years out at our center.

in New Mexico, I taught the Jewish. prophets. And each time I'd go through. it, I'd say, "Why aren't more people. teaching this? The prophets have had. very little effect on Judaism." And. they're honest about that. As Jesus. said, you're gonna kill all the prophets. and you're gonna kill me. >> And his most quoted line about the. prophets is this. No prophet is honored. in his own country. You're familiar with. it. >> Yes. Yes. >> Why?

>> A prophet knows no honor in his own. homeland is how I learned it. Okay. >> Very good. >> Okay. >> Why? Because a prophet is always first. of all critical of his own self, his own. agenda, his own tribe, his own country. >> And we have a politic that seems to be. incapable of self-criticism. >> So what do you think's going to happen. if you have a you you spoke earlier. about the truth and about where the tr.

truth is annihilated? you you the. culture and the country becomes. destroyed and you spoke about where we. are right now. Where what do you think. is actually going to happen to us? >> I can't play the prophet myself but you. can't go on a course this long without. self-destructing. It's not going to be. an enemy from without. It's going to be. massive disillusionment from within. Exactly how that's going to happen, I.

don't know. But we Americans who thought. we were so great, and I don't need to. tell you, but we were able to do that by. denying how we treated the indigenous. people, how we treated the black people. while caring about our democracy, you know? I mean, democracy didn't even. seriously begin till the 1960s. >> That's what happens when you have no. healthy self-criticism. >> Yeah. You had no democracy before the.

Civil Rights Act. You had none. >> When you can't see your own none for for. all of its citizens of color, you. certainly had none. >> You had and see people of color know. that. >> we white guys are the last ones to know. it. We really naively presumed. everybody was free and everybody was in. charge of their own destiny. We can't do. that anymore. And for a lot of people, it doesn't matter if everybody isn't. free if they are. That's that's the.

problem we're having. >> Say it hurts too much. >> Yeah. >> It's too true. >> But you know, it's true. >> Yeah. It's too true. >> It doesn't matter if everybody isn't. free as long as you feel that you are. That's that's what we're seeing. >> That's the triumph of the ego. >> You titled the introduction of this book. Good Trouble. Eternal. >> Good Trouble. You know who I got that. from? >> Yes. From Congressman John Lewis. And. you warn about group narcissism. Do you. think that's where we are right now. >> in this country? Definitely.

>> That we are in a group narcissistic. collective narcissistic. >> And when you got to a later chapter like. Amos, >> yes. >> One of the great things I try to make. clear in the book, and it isn't hard to. prove at all. I'm just amazed more. people haven't preceded me, >> is the prophets. localize evil. Not in individual bad. apples, but in the collective culture,

>> structural sin, institutional injustice. that you're blind to it. Why? Because. everybody's doing it. And I've all. agreed it's wonderful. >> And this is key to understanding the. profits. >> Okay. So, this group narcissism, how do. we how do we break free of it? You. usually through grief. >> Yes. >> I mean eventually grief hits every life. But you have to taste it. You have to we.

used to say drink your tears. >> Yes. >> You have to learn its lesson. How can. life be so sad? A lot of us experience it. The death of. our parents. or the death of our a child. It always. has to be uncalled for, unworthy, unnamed, and then it haunts you for years to. come. That undoes the ego. I always say. there's two universal paths of.

transformation, bigger than. Christianity, bigger than any single. religion, great love and great. suffering. >> They have the capacity to change every. human being. I don't care what your. religion is. Great love and great. suffering change the soul. Awaken the. soul. >> Awakens the soul. >> Yeah. Right. And if you never love. anybody or anything, if you never care.

for anybody enough to weep for them, you'll pretty much stay how you were at. 17. >> Yeah. And also if you never have any. suffering or know any suffering or. empathize with anyone else's suffering. >> Yes, you named it. >> Yes, >> you named it. >> You've been critical of your own faith, Catholicism. How do you turn over in. your mind and in your heart all the. atrocities along with all the good works.

done by the Catholic Church? Well, thank. God I was educated first of all in the. lives of the saints and the good works. of the church. It was admittedly one. side of the story. It was later in my. life when things like the Inquisition. and the pedophile scandal. were revealed to us Catholics. So I got a good dose of the positive, our philosophical tradition, our.

theological tradition. They held me. fast. I I think I use in the book, Oprah, correct me if it didn't stick. with you, that my big threelevel change. is you have to begin with order. Then you have to have the courage to. admit into your ordered universe that. you were given in Mississippi. I was. given in Kansas. Yeah. Both of us raised. nice little conservative Christians.

But it it that stabilizes the psyche. >> Yeah. >> There is meaning in the universe. There. is order. But then what came along for. me exactly at the right time in the 60s. was a huge do dose of disorder for us. It was a civil rights movement, the. antivietnam movement which began to. expose the shadow side as Carl Young. calls it the shadow side of everything.

That's another way of saying the tears. >> of things. Yes. >> Everything. And I'm going to say. everything has a shadow side. We you have the courage to admit that if. you've had a good dose of the first good. side, order. >> Now, if you can put order together with. disorder, guess what? You end up with reorder. That's enlightenment. Where you don't.

try to eliminate disorder anymore. You. don't try to even This is going to be. shocking to a Christian. You don't even. try to eliminate sin. You're not. surprised at it. It's a universal. phenomenon. We hope we'd sin a little less, but when. you see how poorly we've localized sin, >> always in someone else, somebody else, >> another group, they're sinful, >> accusatory, and judgmental about other.

people. Oh, one of the things I. appreciated, you said that now that you. have reached 83, you've learned that you. have to forgive almost everything. >> Almost everything. It's one big. sweep of But not thinking of it as. forgiving. It's just a patience with. things. Uh. >> I don't call it forgiving. I call it For. me, well, I'm 71. >> Yeah. And for me, it's not forgiving as.

much as it is a letting go and allowing. Just allowing. >> the letting go and allowing. >> Giving up our control needs. that I have any control over any of it. >> And just letting people be whoever they. are and accepting them exactly where. they are. >> Thinking I can't love it till it meets. my definition. Correct. >> Of order and control. >> That's right. >> You'll never love anybody. >> That's right. Unless you allow them to. be. >> You got it. You got it. >> I love forgiving everything. Not.

consciously. It comes naturally. Now I I. talked to you in one of my earlier talks. about the two halves of life. I'm now. this isn't good mathematics, but I'm. calling it the third half of life, which. there can't be. But the third half half. of life is just it's all okay. It's all. okay. I can live with it. Yeah, somebody was. talking to me about yesterday way. somebody was dressing or looking at that.

thing. It's all fine. It's all good. >> See, you're there at 71 made it to 83. >> Well, we have Richard Roar here. I knew. we'd have listeners who have questions. for you around your new book, The Tears. of Things. Nick is zooming in with us. from Utah. Hi, >> Nick. I hear you started you started a. Tik Tok channel in hopes of helping. bridge the divide between the left and. the right. Tell us about that. >> Yeah. No, thank you. And thank you both. so much for having me on. I really.

appreciate it. As Oprah said, I I. started this Tik Tok channel called The. Radical Centrist, hoping to bridge the. divide, right? I I just feel like it's. gotten to a point where it's it's it's. really scary. And as I've done this, I've had some success. The left and the. right need each other. But without them, we lose the moral friction that makes. democracy work. America doesn't need a. red team or a blue team. It needs both. But the more success I have, the more. hate I receive. Right. The the extremes. really don't like. >> Is that right? Yeah. >> The more hate. Did you say more hate?

>> The more hate. Right. So the extreme. feel that I'm just enabling evil on the. other side. >> Both sides feel that way. >> Both sides. Yeah. I do think it's a. vocal minority. uh but it's very very. vocal and so sometimes it's it's really. hard to know because these are in my. opinion they're a lot of them are just. really good people but and so and so. it's hard to know whether or not I'm. doing the right thing in doing this. saying we should bridge the divide and. see the humanity in the other side so my. question for you father Roar is what.

advice would you give those of us that. are trying to bridge this divide whether. that's at home whether it's on a Tik Tok. channel whether it's at work um and then. how do we know if we are doing it in the. right way because that we don't want to. be doing it the wrong way you know. >> Yeah. Let me start with this. I I mean. you you just set me up for an hour. lecture which I promise not to give you. but uh the opposite of faith is not. doubt. The opposite of faith is.

certitude. And after the enlightenment. 17th 18th century, we even we Christians. felt that our job was to be certain. No, our job is to be loving. That's. different. Now once you've localized. evil. and you've they are the evil country, they are the evil religion. If it's so bad now, they are the evil. gender. You know, we do this to one.

another. Yeah. >> Uh, you don't want to be disallowed that. localization. I like the way the world is situated. Good people are here. Bad people are. there. Don't make me change my mind. Do. you see the love affair with certitude? It's It's not loving God. I'm sorry. It's not loving certainly not loving. your neighbor. It's not even loving yourself. It's.

loving your ideas about things. And we Catholics made that mistake too. long. So we're very impatient with it. When we see other people repeating our. heresy, it doesn't make for happy people. >> or or content people or alive people. I don't think. >> Yeah. >> Am I answering your question at all? >> I think so. Yeah. No, I So then if I'm.

applying that to myself, I have a pretty. strong belief that there are good people. on both sides. I know Republicans that I. love and I know Democrats that I love. You know, if we're speaking specifically. to America, how do I avoid that sin of. certainty, if you want to call it that? And yet, how do I know if I'm doing the. right thing? Right? Those seem to be at. odds with each other. >> What's at odds? I'm trying to understand. what's at odds, Nick. >> Good. So the the the idea so so I need.

certainty that I'm doing the right. thing, right? So if I'm going to keep on. reaching out to the other side or both. sides and saying, "Hey, we we need to be. kind to each other," it takes a certain. level of conviction and certainty to do. that. >> So is is. >> that's true to have that certainty? >> Yes. >> Yeah. Is it okay for him to have that. certitude that the right thing to do is. to try to get both sides. >> to, you know, I I think the key is in. humanizing both sides.

>> That's good. >> Is in humanizing both sides. When I can. see your humanity, when I can see that. you feel the same sadness and the same. sorrow for for the for the same things. that I feel sadness for. you want the. same uh uh accomplishments to experience. the same joys with your children. There's a commonality that we all have. in the human experience. So my my way. through these podcasts and through. everything else I've done um that also. gets lots of criticism is to actually.

humanize and to see the other person and. the other side as as as myself as my. equal as as as a human. And I think you. know you're doing the right thing. if the right thing is coming from a. genuine. pure space. that is an extension of the love you. have for humanity. So you're not doing. it cuz you're trying to get Tik Tok.

followers. You're not doing it if you're. doing it in any way because this has. been my experience. I check my ego for all things, >> right? I don't do one damn thing if I. can help it that I'm acting out of my. ego cuz I know that's going to come back. to me in an egotistic or a way that is. going to be harmful to me. So I think. the part of the answer that you're. looking for is to search within yourself. for the pure intention and reason why. you're doing it. I admire your courage.

and your bravery because I mean I just. have you know left a lot of social stuff. alone and come off social media because. the the the backlash or the hatred and. the vitriel is so is more than I can. stand. I I can't bear it. It's why we. don't have comments on this YouTube. channel because you just be fighting all. of the negative stuff all the time. The. crazy stuff, the conspiracy theories, the you know all the all all that stuff. So I admire you for doing it, but if.

you're doing it for the right reasons, then it is the right thing to do because. the world needs people like you, especially right now. So what is your. purest purest intention in doing it? >> I mean, it's got to I think it has to be. love. It does. >> Okay, expand more on that for us. Why. does it have to be love? Why? Why? Be. >> because anything else is I I I I can't. find a pure force, right? I mean, anger.

makes me make a lot of mistakes. Correct. Love is a lot more humble. I. could admit when I. >> And then I don't know. I I mean, I. always go back to that that quote from. Martin Luther King that was love hate. cannot throw out hate. Only love can do. that. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, I I want to be that, but it. is hard to say stay in that space. It's. really, really difficult. Um, and so. >> Martin Luther King didn't have Tik Tok, >> right? He didn't have Tik Tok. He had.

all the other haters trying to bomb his. house and kill him and his family, but. he did but he didn't have he didn't have. the ongoing visceral reaction every day. from people coming at you with their. meanness and their, you know, intention. to take you down. >> Yeah. >> Let me throw this into the mix. It. doesn't cover every base, but you first. have to succeed at dualistic clarity. Like it was the same president who said. it was a Charlottesville. Well, there.

were good people on both sides. That. sounds like fuzzy soft thinking. So I. don't have to take a stand. First you. have to say, no, this is objectively. good and this is objectively bad. Then. you get to what the Eastern religions. would call nonduality. First dualistic. Jesus himself, God and Mammon and so forth, he's very. dualistic about the big issues.

But then when it comes to practical. everyday living, you said it a minute. ago, the response to both of them, the one. you like and the one you don't like is. love. That's the dance that I think an. authentic believer has to do. has to not. be naive about evil and evil's capacity. to hurt people cuz otherwise we're going.

to get in real trouble saying, "Oh, there's good people on both sides.". Well, yes, but. >> uh a lot of them are doing some bad. stuff that must be named, evil must be. named. And that was the genius of the. prophets. They critiqued Israel first. They critique themselves first and then. they said but and they learned this. through tears. That's my thesis in the.

whole book. >> Through sadness they move from anger to. sadness. That movement from anger to sadness to. compassion. is the transformative movement of the. prophets. I'm going to send you a an. autographed signed copy of Tears of. Things from Father Roar. And I think if. you read it and you actually look at. many of the lessons from the prophets. because what you're establishing.

yourself to be, what you are uh. journeying in in in this lifetime to be. is someone who can uh moderate both. sides. And I think yeah, taking lessons. from people who've done it uh over the. ages will be really beneficial to you. And I have to say I I admire your. willingness to take it on. >> Me, too. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, Nick.

>> Thank you, Nick. All right. We're going. to autograph a book to Nick and get it. >> All right. >> Okay. >> Easy. >> Easy. >> Easy peasy. >> Thank you, Nick. >> Thank you. >> Bestselling author Jason Wilson is. joining us. >> Hi, Jason. How you doing, Oprah? How you. doing, Father Roy? Good to see you. >> Better now. >> Okay. He he most he once went viral with. his empowering message to a young boy. when he assured him it's okay to cry. That thing went all over the world. >> Why you crying?

That's what this is about, son. It's. okay to cry. We cry as men. Why are you. crying though, son? Come on. Tell me why you crying. Water test for a reason. But why are you. crying? Go ahead, sir. Because what? Because. >> Okay, good. But you did it. >> And Jason, you've also written a book. called Cry Like a Man. So, I know you're.

going to love the tears of things. What. was your question for Father Roar? My. question was, >> well, before you ask that question, I. want to ask, how did finally learning. how to cry change your life? >> Well, my tears taught me that I'm human. You know, so often growing up. >> in my community, especially as me and as. Father Roy shared earlier, we're trained. by misconstrued mantras like uh big boys. don't cry, what doesn't kill you can. only make you stronger, and no pain, no. gain. And as a result of that, we.

repress our emotions. And then Oprah. when I discovered that tears not only. contain 98% water but also stress. hormones. >> that get excreted from our bodies when. we cry. So my work with boys Oprah. >> here it is with telling boys not to cry. and then we wonder why when they get to. a certain age. >> that they don't want know how to express. themselves. So for me when I was able. to, you know, share the the misleading. mantras and really understand that tears. made me human, it finally allowed me to.

stop my trauma from time traveling and. then to grieve without embarrassment, without shame. I was able to finally. love myself, my family, and my friends. without limits and most importantly. escape emotional incarceration. >> I love that. Escape emotional. incarceration. And didn't it open up so. many avenues? I mean, I was I was just. having a conversation recently with the. gentleman who runs the Hoffman Institute.

who was saying that he was raised as as. a young boy not to cry and that many. years later when his mother was dying. and he was crying in the car about that, his father who had taught him not to cry. said, "Can you teach me how to cry?". >> Wow. Oh, >> can you teach me how to cry? And he said. he did. He was able to help his father. told his father that when he start to. feeling the emotion instead of shutting. down, just open up and go into that.

feeling and allow it to take over. And. to know that it's only going to last for. 10 or 15 minutes, that it's not you're. not going to be crying the rest of your. life. and that his father learning how. to cry during the death of his wife that. he'd been married to all those years. really changed the grieving process but. also opened up an aperture for joy. So. I've shared that story with you to just. ask that question. Did your learning to. cry also open up the aperture for.

experiencing. other emotions in your relationships? >> Oh absolutely. Uh Oprah, I often teach. uh my boys and men that I work with that. we tend to gravitate toward the eight. box of crayons versus the 64 box. And I. compare those two emotions that we're. both given as men and women. But we're. typically as men, as Father Roy tell. you, we go towards anger, frustration, and fear. But what about the other. emotions? And so being married 26 years. now, >> I had to learn that when my wife is.

requesting Violet, all I could give her. was purple. when she wanted lime, I had. to figure out a way to make green and. yellow match the color. And I said, "Wait a minute. This is a major issue. with communication." And I learned how. to not only process my emotions, but. become a verbal processor expressing the. true uh feeling behind the emotion. instead of always going to the surface. emotion, which I call anger. And so I. was repressing all of this pain. and.

working with boys, I realized later on. why the word thug was really popular. And I made an acronym because what I saw. wasn't a gangster. I saw a traumatized. human unable to grieve. >> And so when I helped them process their. pain and emotions and gave them the. freedom to feel and show them the power. of tears, they were finally able to. release and grieve and live better and. fuller lives. Boy, that made my eyes. water. Thug.

is a traumatized human unable to grieve. >> Wow. That reorders. >> reorder. >> that reorders. >> the meaning and definition of that word. Thank you for sharing that, Jason. What. was your question? Do for did you have a. question for Father Roar? >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, I wanted to ask. you as someone who also works closely. with men, helping them process their. emotions and release trauma. You know, I'm curious cuz I I read some uh of your. work with men and retreats and helping.

them open up. What practices and. approaches have you, you know, found to. be the most effective in helping men be. transparent and emotionally open? The most universal one discovered by all. of the world religions is some form of. mindfulness that you see the games your. mind plays. You have to observe. It. sounds so passive. But once you see it, you can't not see it that you prefer the.

negative or you prefer problem solving. or you prefer being antagonistic, scapegoating others. Once you recognize. your pro patterns, you see they're everywhere. For years up. at Ghost Ranch in New Mexico, where I. live, I gave these five-day events. called men's rights of passage. And the. turning point, I'm not exaggerating, for. many men was on the third day, which we.

call the day of grief. And I had learned. this, but I'm not making this up. It. sounds like a dramatic story, but I. visited the Massi in Africa. And the. chief who had read some of my stuff, he. gave two warriors permission to walk me. around the path that a young warrior had. to walk to be initiated. And the most. moving part was the caves of grief and.

these two toughl looking guys with. spears and shields and they they they. got even softspoken as we approached. these caves and they said here father we. had to learn how to cry. and I I would explain to the group and. say the turning phrase. was when I would say many of you thought.

your father was an angry man and maybe. he was. Many of you think you are an. angry man and maybe you are. But now listen closely. They'd lead. forward. This is by the third day they. were teachable. And I said, "Many of you are not angry, you're sad.". And it just you could see the jolt of.

recognition. Sadness. hides as anger. But once you give. permission, a man at least, women have. permission already, but we have to give. men permission. You're not really an. angry man. You're just deeply sad. that the whole five-day event turned in. some ways on that one remark because. they wanted to discover the source of.

their tears and that led to this book, Tears of Things. >> Tears of things. I can see that. resonated with you, Jason. >> Yeah, I um I have so many questions. Um. my uh male program, I teach boys uh. emotional stability training. It's. called the Cave of Adelum. And so when I. read about the caves of grief and your. work with the Messiah warriors, it. really hit me hard. And I got the name. from David when he was ran from King. Saul to hide from him because he was.

trying to kill him. >> And this and the history tells us that. 400 men came unto David who was. distressed, discontented, and in debt. >> and he became a captain. What's. interesting when you tie this caves of. grief in, I always ponder like, well, what happened in this cave? Because. those same men came out as mighty men of. valor. >> So, they didn't need to train to fight. because father, am I right? They already. were warriors. >> And so, you're telling me that these. men, they would they would have to as a. part of the right of passage, they would.

have to learn how to cry in these caves. >> It felt like that's what they were. saying. Now, I I would have then had to. ask, "How do they do that?" Because I. know you can't program tears. Uh we in the church tried to do it, but. they they didn't come from from a deep. place too often. >> Um. >> Jason, I can see you you all could have. a conversation all day long. I need a. number. I. >> I can see I can see that that could go.

on. Thank you for joining joining us and. thank you for writing your book. Cry. like a man. Cry like a man. >> Well, you say in the book, human beings. are really made of love and for love and. we still don't know it. We are made of. love for love and we still don't know. it. Why do you think people still can't. get it? I mean, I think we humans are. missing the point, especially now and. when everybody is just, you know,

attacking everybody else. I thought, "Wow, >> most Christians, here's self-criticism, but I hope you don't hear it coming from. a negative place. We substituted. a reward punishment scenario, apocalyptic dualism, >> forgive the two big words, at the end of. our lives." And it largely created fear. of God, not love of God. I don't know if. you got to the end of the book, the.

story of the angel. >> walking through the streets of the. world. >> Yes. >> Now, I'll just finish it since I started. it. The I used to use this in a lot of. major talks and people said they never. forgot it. The angel walking through the. streets of the world has a pale of water. and a torch of fire. And people of. course ask, "What are you going to do. with that torch and that pale?" And the. angel is supposed to say, "I'm here to.

burn down the mansions of heaven and to. put out the fires of hell." Only then. will we know who really loves God. We've. got to get beyond this reward punishment. scenario because it makes us think that. our job is to decide who deserves the. reward and who deserves the punishment. It makes Christians inherently. judgmental. The first 2,000 years,

society itself was too violent, as we. see from our own, >> right, >> history of enslavement to hear that. We. just couldn't hear it. And feudalism. couldn't hear it and the war centuries. couldn't hear it. But there's more and. more people who can hear that. that as. as you both have been saying, only love. wins. Only love changes people. That's. obvious.

>> Yeah. I I don't know what it's going to. take for. a reward punishment system will not. change people. It makes them afraid of. God and hate their neighbor with. impunity. God wants me to hate those. >> people, >> whatever those. >> whatever their label is. Yes. >> Well, Susie now joins us from Dallas, Texas, and you say that Father Roar's uh. teachings are what actually made you. feel loved by God. That is big. >> Oh, I hope so.

>> That's big. What's your question? First. of all, tell us how how his teachings. help you feel loved by God. >> I've been following uh Father Richard. for I think over 10 years. I I really. sort of found myself brought to my knees. by some things in my life, both. personally and professionally, that that. um kind of happened at that time. And I. think intuitively I knew that I needed. God and I just I needed something. greater than myself and I just didn't. know where to turn. I think I learned of. you through Rob Bell. Um and you know I.

read several of your books and I have. been getting your daily newsletter and. it just always resonates so deeply with. me. I I mean often your readings bring. me to tears because it just touches me. at a place that nothing else has. >> It says more about you than me. But. thank you. Do you have a question, Susie? >> I do. In the book, you you quoted uh in. the in the introduction, you said, "My. hope is that this small book might. accelerate the pace of human and. spiritual vulnerability by encouraging.

each of us to take a first daring step.". And so I guess my question for you is, you know, what might that step be for. those of us outside of organized. religion who um don't always feel like I. have the words necessarily to to speak. about faith outside of of religion and. and how can we help, you know, sort of. push this forward? >> You have to meet a God of limitless. love. It has to be limitless. It has to. be infinite. But I'm told the human mind.

just like it's hooked by the amygdala, it is positively hooked by unconditional. love. And you have to have at least had. a taste of that. But I'm told the human. mind can't imagine infinite things. >> Can't. >> So we portion love out. Who's worthy of. it? Who's ready for it? >> Who deserves it? Who deserves it? >> Who deserves it? Deserves it. When you. stop counting, you're living not in the.

kingdoms of this world. The kingdoms of. this world are all about counting, measuring, weighing. The kingdom of God, as Jesus would call it, the whole game. of mathematics falls apart. You You. can't compute anymore. Now, if you're. not willing to let that be done to your. mind, to live in an infinite sea of. mercy where all counting is meaningless, meaningless. You'll never be a a mystic.

You'll never be a a nondual enjoyer. And. I I believe we have to resituate. Christianity and joy, not threat. And. that's why I told the story of the angel. traveling the streets of the world. A. lot of us grew up with threat. Threat. does not get you there. But it's the way. most of us certainly I in the 40s and. 50s in Kansas where I grew up I had very. loving parents but they did threaten us.

a lot. >> a lot. >> Susie, thank you for that. Thank you for. your question and thank you for being a. >> a follower and a reader and being. inspired by Father Roar. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you both. >> Thanks for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you. >> Next, we have Lauren, founder of We Grow. LA, a nonprofit in Los Angeles that. builds spaces of access, of hope, and. belonging. >> Lauren, what's your question for Father. Roar today? You look so gorgeous today. >> Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to be I'm.

learning so much, soaking it all in. Uh. my question is as a faithbased community. leader in today's society, how do I make. sure that I'm a listening ear for. prophetic voices in a way that really. creates a culture that surrounds truth. seeeking, honesty, prophetic messages, even if it is not consistent with what. my original plans are for the. organization. What you have to develop.

in yourself and in your group is a. capacity for positive. self-criticism. And once you learn how to positively. critique your own games, your own. shadow, remember the shadow is not evil. We learn this from well Jesus talked. about the splinter in other people's. eyes and the log in your own. He was. teaching us the same thing. But if you. don't do shadow work, you end up.

unself-critical. And why would you listen to an. unself-critical person? Because they'll. never see their filters, their agendas, their obsessions. That's certainly much of the first, I'm going to say 45, 50 years of life, learning just how to do that without. shaming the self, without hating the.

self. Just recognizing, well, Richard, you've got your own faults, too. >> You've got your own blind spots, >> and this is what you need to work on for. yourself. >> That's right. Yes. Or your lens is not. clear enough. You've got your Achilles. heel. Uh. >> looking at the moat in your own eye. >> There you go. >> Yeah. >> It's this hasn't been taught. You know, I assume maybe you're familiar with St.

Paul in the scriptures. He talks about. the second most important of the. charismatic gifts of the gifts of the. spirit is the gift of prophecy. and we haven't even allowed it, taught. it. He speaks of schools of prophets. where you have to be trained in how to. positively self-critique. Mhm. >> And if your politician,

your preacher, priest, if they aren't. capable of healthy self-criticism, I wouldn't follow them too far down the. plank. because they're going to lead lead you. to a a not very enlightened place. They'll always have localized evil in. another race, another religion, another. gender, another neighborhood, another. we don't have time for that anymore. We.

really, we just don't. >> Yeah. >> Did you get your question answered? >> I did. I did. It sounds uh well how I'm. interpreting it is the first thing for. me to do is you know remain in a self. evaluation state. >> That's a good word. >> Yeah. And and then also before accepting. um you know messaging from others to. make sure that it's identifiable that. they are also in that state as well.

>> Yep. >> You got it. >> You received it. Thank you Lauren. Thank. you for the question. >> Thank you so much. I love how your green. matches the plants in the background. That's great. >> Perfect outfit. Thank you so much. >> A nice smile. >> Thank you. >> Have a good one. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So, I often end our conversations here. with this question. I know for sure I. need to ask you of all people. How do. you define a well-lived life? >> Father Roar,

you know who used the word generative? Was that Eric Ericson? I'm not sure. It. doesn't matter. But you're delighted when you're around. generative people who generate other. people, other movements, other things. than their own. >> I was just at a conference in Boston for. Champions of Love, a rather pretentious.

title, >> but God was I energized after being with. them for five days. They're all doing. >> They deserve the title. It's. >> Yeah, they deserve the title. And they. were just so positive, so loving, even though every one of them. was addressing. major social ills. Brian Stevenson, the. >> the uh lynching museum. Yes. And you've. probably read it. >> I've been there.

>> Yeah. >> I did a did the first story about it for. 60 minutes. It was great. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Father Greg Bole with the uh. homeboy. working with the Hispanic. street boys of Los Angeles. >> God, do we think like but he's so. generative with it. It's the biggest. street boy, if I can use that phrase, organization in the world. And uh that's.

his what he's generated. So you came. away from these this conference with all. of these people who are generating who. are champions of love and love. >> Champions of love. >> and you felt. championed yourself. You felt inspired, opened up, elevated. Yes. >> Yes. Loving people liberate you. They. you don't feel judged around them. You. feel affirmed. >> So a well-lived life is a life of. someone who can generate the kind of. love that inspires other people to be.

more loving. That's what it sounds like. you're saying. >> That's what it come and it sounds like a. pachche, doesn't it? But it's true. >> But it's true. It's so true. >> It's so true. >> Always a joy to talk to you. Thank you, Father Richard War. This book is called. The Tears of Things. Thank you to my. guests Nick and Jason who could have. still been talking to you, Susie and. Lauren, for sharing your stories and. your thoughtful questions. The Tears of. Things is available wherever books are. sold. It's a call of action for all of.

us to love more. To love more. Go well. everybody. >> Thank you. >> You're a delight always. >> Thank you. You can subscribe to the Over. Podcast on YouTube and follow us on. Spotify, Apple Podcast, or wherever you. listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks. everybody.