Oprah Explores the Rising Trend of Going No Contact with Your Family

Today officially marks [music] one year. no contact with my parents. I've been. basically fully no contact with my. [music] parents for the last 3 plus. years. >> We're talking about the rapidly growing. epidemic of estranged [music] children. who walk away from their parents. What. are they protecting themselves from? >> You know what? [music] I'm over it. I'm. over the idea that parents are supposed. to sit around [music] in emotional. timeout until our kids decide we're. worthy again. And when somebody new in. my life finds out that I've been no. contact with them without failure, [music] the number one thing that they.

tell me is, "But they're still your. mom.". Hi everybody. It is my pleasure to. welcome you to the Oprah podcast. We are. here in New York City with a live. audience of our listeners. Hello New. York. Hello New York. Hello New York. [applause]. [cheering]. So maybe you all can relate in some way. to this growing phenomenon known as.

going no contact. That's when a person. cuts off ties to someone in their. family. A Cornell University study now. shows that almost onethird of Americans. are one-third are actively estranged. from a family member. That is incredible. to me. I want to ask a few people in our. audience to help us understand what that. means. So, Bristol, go ahead. >> I have been no contact with my entire. family for a year and a half now.

>> No contact. >> No contact. >> Not a phone call, not a text, not a. nothing. >> Nothing. >> For a year, year and a half now. Okay. Chris, how about you? >> It's been four years since I've had. contact with my parents and my siblings. >> Four years. Not a word. >> Not a word. >> Okay. and Kendall. >> I've been no contact with my 30-year-old. son for 2 years. >> By your choice? >> By choice. >> Okay. So, some experts believe that. there's been a shift in how younger.

generations protect their mental health. and their boundaries or have an expanded. view of what is considered abuse. And. that has led to a silent epidemic. So, social media has millions of videos with. the hashtag no contact from adult. children who say that their parent or. their sibling is toxic and they've had. enough. So, what is going on? So, we. gathered leading experts, leading. experts and people with different.

experiences and points of view on this. issue, including parents whose adult. children have cut them off. and we'll. hear from other adult children who chose. to go no contact with their parents. I. know this is a tender hot button topic. My hope is that we can open up the heart. space and really listen. I'm not on. anybody's side. I just want to hear what. everyone has to say. So, let's start by. introducing Dr. Joshua Coleman, who's a. psychologist and best-selling author of.

Rules of Estrangement: Why Adult. Children Cut Ties and How to Heal the. Conflict. Now, he's a frequent. contributor to the Washington Post. column, Ask a Therapist. Welcome, Dr. Coleman. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, is this a new thing? Because I mean. for many many many years of doing shows. and talking to families from all over. the country and the world when there's a. crisis people just sort of figured it. out or came together at Thanksgiving and.

had a big fight. But is this new? >> Yeah. I mean there's always been. estrangements, right? For forever. there's been estrangements, but it's new. the way we think about family. There's. been a radical change in um the way that. we think about family. The old days of. honor thy mother and thy father, respect. thy elders, families forever has given. way to this much more of an emphasis on. personal happiness, personal growth, my. identity, my political beliefs, my. mental health. So much so that today.

protecting my mental health is the. single most common thing that I see in. every single letter from every aranged. >> Has this has this been exacerbated or. has this increased because of social. media? >> Oh, there's no question. Absolutely. Yeah, because you've got two billion. hashtags toxic family and everybody's. got a, you know, if you line up and. you're in a strange parent, you're going. to get onto a Facebook site or if you're. a strange adult child, you're going to. probably get on to Reddit or something. like that and you're going to get. support for your perspective. But these. aren't people who actually know your.

parents or know your adult child. They're going to kind of tell you what. you want to hear. So, there's this very. inflammatory reaction that people have. as a result of it. And partly that. happens because we become so so divided. as a society. People are kind of looking. for their tribes because their tribes. are, you know, they don't have them. anymore. We're lonely. We have rising. rates of. >> Your tribe used to be your family. >> Your tribe used to be your family. Exactly. And it still could if we figure. out how to talk to each other. Well, it's so interesting because, you know, I've been talking to people for a number.

of years and I remember back in the day, meaning 80s, 90s a uh the very idea of. having a disagreement with your family. and the very idea of divorcing your. parent or removing yourself from a toxic. situation was for was a foreign concept. to people. But now it's like common. understanding. It's common understanding. it's also positioned as this sort of. virtuous act of protecting our mental. health. And you know what? Sometimes it.

is. There are truly abusive, difficult. parents and family members. But there's. a lot of people getting estranged today. who aren't abusive, who are loving, decent, hardworking, loving, caring. parents, and they're being cut off. And. part of the problem is us as therapists. as I I hope we'll talk about because as. therapists we become what the. sociologist Allison Pew calls detachment. brokers or we help people not feel. guilty about feeling responsible for our. parents. That gets sort of pathized as. being codependent or parentified or that.

kind of thing. And therapists are sort. of greenlighting a lot of arrangements. particularly when you use language like. oh your mom's a narcissist or your dad's. a borderline or they're a sociopath or. they're gaslighting you or they're a. boundary crosser. And once you say that. to somebody, once you tell somebody that. their parent or their family member or. their child is that way, you just green. lit them cutting them off because now. it's a virtuous act of protecting their. mental health. I think that's a problem. Okay. Dr. Lindse Gibson is here and. she's a clinical psychologist and New.

York Times bestselling author of Adult. Children of Emotionally. Parents. And I hear it has sold now over. two million copies. And many people. credit your book as the catalyst. actually for this surge in adult. children going no contact. Now her. upcoming book is how to raise an. emotionally mature child. So Dr. Gibson, what is it that uh you were seeing in. your own practice? >> Yeah. A as a psychotherapist, what I was.

seeing was people coming in not. identifying the problem as being with. their parents or their family members. Usually, it was some other kind of. stress. Could be work stress or friend. stress, that kind of thing. And then. about three or four sessions in, they. would start talking about what was going. on with the family, >> um, and sort of like their daily life. stress. And from there we would begin to.

get a picture of of this old underlying. tension that had been going on for a. long time with the family. But very few. people early in the day would come in. and say, "I have a problem with my. mother or I have a problem with my my. son." They would come in with some other. life stress and then we would get to the. family issue. What I. >> is the family issue at the root of most. things? Well, I don't know if it's at. the root or whether it just resonates. with what's going on now. It's it's very.

hard to tell. But what I found was that. the coping mechanisms that they had. learned to use with their parents when. their parents were either trying to. control them or um get them to do what. they wanted were being transferred to. their current relationships or their. work relationships. Could you could. could you give us some um factors that. you believe make it necessary to protect.

somebody's emotional health by going no. contact? I mean when you say to someone. or do you say to them perhaps you should. go no contact? >> Yeah. I don't say that. >> You don't say that. >> I don't say that. >> Let them decide. >> My job as a therapist is to help people. >> come to their own conclusions. Well, not. only come to their own conclusions, but. I want them to be able to turn within. and test out their own inner guidance. In other words, get back in in touch. with their own feelings and how things. affect them. And lots of times when.

you've had a dominant parent, that. ability to know what you actually feel. and think has been messed with. Okay? Because it becomes an issue of you love. your parent by agreeing with what they. see. So actually, no, I'm all about. helping people to understand the. dynamics of the relationship, how it's. affecting them, and then they make the. decision about what they want to do. >> Well, how do you do you you talk to them. about your emotionally immature parent,

and how do you determine whether a. parent is emotionally immature? >> Yeah. Um, I really stay away from those. terms in psychotherapy because I'm not. >> You wrote a whole book about it. >> I did write I did write the book. I did. write the book. >> When I'm coming in, I'm coming to the. lady I'm coming to the lady who wrote. the book about emotionally immature. parents. Okay. >> Absolutely. >> Whether you mention it or not in our. session. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Right. But when I'm talking with them in.

this session, I'm describing behavior. They're describing behavior and we're. talking about the effect of those. behaviors on them down the road, you. know, once they've read the book. Yeah. Then we might use that shortorthhand. about emotional immaturity. But at the. time, >> we are just trying to understand their. subjective experience of that parent. >> Okay, I want to bring in Nedra Goldberg. to WAB. Nedra is a licensed therapist.

and a relationship expert known as the. boundary queen on social media and she's. the author of the New York Times. bestseller Dramafree: A Guide to. Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships. And her upcoming book is The Balancing. Act: Creating Healthy Dependency and. Connection Without Losing Your Self. Welcome. I see you nodding here. And. you're nodding for both of them. So, what does that mean? >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's such a. thin line between like what's. appropriate and what's gone too far.

>> because as therapists, we do see our. clients suffering. And as Lindsay. mentioned, I don't say like you need to. leave this relationship, but I might. think like, I wonder how you will feel. if you did. >> because there's so much pain for so long. for. You wrote you wrote that no contact. is is not the first option as much as a. last resort. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> And when is it a last resort, do you. think?

>> I think when you've assessed whether the. relationship is safe, if you can handle. the consequences of actually leaving. that relationship, it's our work to help. our clients determine is the. relationship just toxic or is it. annoying? Are these some behaviors we. can live with with people? Is it. possible for us to have less contact. instead of no contact? >> Have we set expectations? Are they even. clear about a problem? Because sometimes.

we haven't talked to people about the. problems we're talking about in therapy. or with our friends and they need to. know in order for us to have a better. relationship with them. >> So, I think what's so interesting, Dr. Coleman, you lived through this with. your own daughter. >> I did. Yeah. who cut off contact with. you. She cut off contact with you for. several years. >> For several years. >> Okay. Tell us what this was like for you. to go through this. >> Oh, it was hell. I was completely. heartbroken. Um I was married and. divorced in my 20s and my daughter's in. her 40s now. We're blessedly very close.

and she has a child that I'm also very. close to. Uh but you know she's in her. early 20s and she wanted to talk to me. about what it was like growing up being. in a blended family and how she felt you. know after I became remarried and had. kids from my second marriage which is my. curse mar current marriage and you know. how she felt in some ways neglected or. like I didn't really have her back and. in some ways unloved by me which is very. very painful to hear that your own child. say that and at the time of course I. responded defensively angrily explained.

myself blamed other people. Yeah. And. for some weird reason, it didn't really. bring her back to me. I don't understand. why. Um, but so it really wasn't until I. realized I just needed to to empathize. with her and take responsibility and. find the kernel of truth, if not the. bushel of truth, and what her complaints. were that things really began to shift. because up to that point, I was making. it about me and it was really about her. and her suffering. But but going through. that was it was it was hell. I felt. ashamed. I felt embarrassed. Did that.

inform your ability to write rules of. arangement? Did it. >> and and was it harder for you because. you're supposed to know. I mean, you're. the person that's advising other. families and other people about their. lives and in your own family it happened. to you. >> Yeah. I wrote my first book on the topic. when parents hurt in 2007. Um and as a. once once we'd reconciled I wouldn't. have written this book if he hadn't. reconciled but once we'd reconciled I. wrote it and as a result got a really. wide following of other parents who were.

going through it and they also said the. same thing which is I thought I was the. only one and as a result of that I did a. study of 1600 aranged parents and. published that in in that book. So um. yeah it's just it's been really my works. for the past almost 20 years. >> Well we have a number of audience. members who are going through this right. now. So Chris and Bri, what's going on? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in a very. performance-oriented household. It was. attend an Ivy League school. Um, get the.

money, the power, the status, be someone. that we can feel proud of. And and Bri. very much did not come from that. background. >> Did you have other siblings in the. household too? >> Yeah, I had two younger brothers. Okay. >> So I was the I was the oldest who was. trailblazing in that way. >> So tell us again, you've not had. contacts with your your parents now for. four years. >> Four years. That's right. >> Is it parents and siblings? That's. right. >> Okay. Okay. >> Nobody in the family. >> Uh there's some extended family, but not. not in the core family. Yeah, that's. right. >> All right. >> And so when Bri and I first got. together, >> we very much felt like she was my.

parents were apathetic towards her. Um. they were not super interested in. getting to know her and. >> they didn't like her. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's that's the feeling that we. got. >> That's the short [laughter] answer. That's. >> they didn't like her. They didn't like. her. They didn't. And the way that that. really surfaced was a was what we. perceived as a disinterest in getting to. genuinely know her. >> Yeah. >> And for, you know, while we started. dating, >> so be it. But as it became clear that. this was a real relationship, that this. was an intense relationship that we were. in. And I said, "This is the woman I'm.

going to marry.". >> And as we moved into that more serious. realm, it went from what we perceived as. apathy to more of we don't like this. Um. and the way that that took form for us. was my parents we found through friends. were scheduling lunches to have. conversation with my friends where the. topic was we're worried about Chris. That was the first thing and then it. became can we delay this engagement or. can we. >> asking your friends? >> Yes. Or can and can we take this.

marriage off the table? >> Um now in spite of that we really worked. hard to figure out what is our new. family going to look like going forward. We like we're going to get married. So. when you hear that they're conspiring. with your friends, what' you do? >> You have a conversation about it. >> Yeah. Yeah, we have a conversation about. it. Um I very much grew up in a house. where again because of that performative. aspect, it was also a there was a. compliance aspect. >> And so frankly something I've had to. really work on and grow in is is being. comfortable. >> in that conflict. And at the time I.

wasn't really I could bring that up. I'm. unhappy with this, but am I going to. really pursue that? The answer is no. >> And so you know we we got married. They. were invited to our wedding. They were a. part of that. And for a time, we were. able to have this kind of tacet piece. >> Wasn't there something with the bridal. shower? Are there something? Did she try. to mess up the bride? Yeah. Your. mother-in-law did. >> tried to mess up the bridal shower. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. And we were we were trying to kind. of construct it. >> Well, that's a sign. >> Yeah. That's a sign for sure. >> Yes. [laughter].

>> Yeah. >> And and where the tables really turned. was when we found out that Bri was. pregnant with our first daughter. And. >> and so we we were nervous. We called up. my parents. We said, "This is what's. going on." And we were profoundly hurt. by what we were met with, which was. disappointment. >> And. >> they were disappointed that she was. pregnant. >> That's right. >> Okay. >> Yeah. They they the way that we. perceived it is that they were. expressing that this wasn't the pace. that they expected us to move at. And we. had already gotten married before they. had wanted and now we were having.

children before, you know, was their. timeline. >> Yeah. And we I left that call. I said, "Let's let's regroup. Let's have another. conversation." And when we did have that. conversation, and I expressed how I had. felt and how hurtful that was, rather. than being met with the empathy and some. repair that we would have really hoped. for, I was met with um what they. described as they were embarrassed by. us. And that was actually the last. conversation that I had with my parents. before going no contact four years ago.

And I just remember walking out of that. conversation thinking for the years that. Bri and I have been together, I've had. to watch her endure that treatment of. not feeling accepted and the last thing. that I would want to do is bring a. daughter into the world where she will. walk into the world on day one and. experience that treatment from her. grandparents. >> Okay. And so you just decided no. contact. So I'm curious, Chris, so can I. ask how old you are? >> I'm 30. >> Okay. You're 30. So you grew up in a. world where you said you you there was.

compliance and there was the household. was performative. So you didn't grow up. in a world where you thought about you. know removing yourself or distancing. yourself from your parents. Where did. the idea even come from that all right. I'm not going to I'm going to cut you. off. I'm I'm not going to talk to you. anymore. >> Yeah. I don't think there was one. moment. I think it was very incremental. and I think that actually it all began. when when we first got together. It. really highlighted the emotional. distance between myself and my parents.

>> And I think with each step over years. and years where I saw my parents being. less and less a part of my life, the. idea that they could not be a part of my. life at all became something that seemed. possible. >> So, did you reach a point where you felt. if I don't comply then they they don't. love me unless I'm complying? >> That's right. Yeah. I I would say I'm. not accepted unless I'm complying. >> Not not accepted. Okay. Do you have a. question for one of our experts here? >> Yeah. As you think about parents raising. children and you know as us as parents.

we're not connected with our families. what would be your advice for talking. about that with our children right how. how as parents can we best support um. our children as they grow up you know. with their grandparents without. grandparents without grandparents. >> cuz are you speaking to your parent. you're not speaking to your parents. either. >> no. >> why aren't you speaking to your parents. >> I grew up in a very religious household. >> and when I became an adults and was not. necessarily having some of the same. morals and values and political beliefs. and religion. Um, they basically.

disowned me. >> Okay. They disowned you. Yeah. >> Okay. >> All right. So, your children are. grandparentless right now. Okay. And so, you're asking the question of how do you. manage the grandparentlessness, right? >> Nedra, is it a tragedy if as a. grandchild their children are two and. four, you never even knew your. grandparents? Yes, but they will still. have some idea of what a grandparent is. And I think for you two, it'll be very. important in an age appropriate way to.

explain the situation. Um, we have. chosen to not have this contact as a. protection for our family, right? And as. they get older, you express that more. I. don't think they need to know like all. of the painful stories. That's not. appropriate. Um, but being clear that. this is a choice that you made and. trying to find other people in the world. who can be grandparent-like, right? So, that could be a neighbor. If you're a. part of a social community, that could.

be someone in that social community. But. being open and honest is really. important. Not trying to erase your. childhood. So, you know, not doing the. thing of never talking about your. childhood, never talking about your. parent. share some of those good. memories with them as well. So, you. know, don't make it seem like these are. people we we don't talk about because. they will have some curiosity. And if. you want to have that emotionally. connected relationship with them, the. one that you didn't have, you'll have to.

be vulnerable and honest with. >> So, you shouldn't act like these are. people we don't talk about even though. you're not talking about them. >> Well, they should be clear that these. are people that you have chosen to not. have a relationship with. We don't want. to make it seem like they just. disappeared. No one ever existed because. you were raised by someone. >> Okay. Yeah. >> What do you say, Dr. Gibson? >> Yeah. I was just I was just thinking. about. when your children begin to be curious. about it or when they bring it up. Yeah. I think that's when you're in that.

position of what what do we say now? What do we do now? But I don't think. that, you know, for little children, two. and four. Yeah. I mean, they're not in. the position yet where, you know, Johnny's grandparents had him. over for supper. Where are our. grandparents? I mean, that day may come. and when it does, I think you can let. them know that we're just not that close. to them. We don't have contact with. them. >> It It's sort of like when children ask, you know, the facts of life. It's like.

>> be careful about how much you lay out. for them at once because they can only. digest. age appropriate, right? But I think it's. very important to wonder and ask the. child, honey, why are you asking that. right now? What's what's what brought up. um what brought up the the thought about. grandparents? >> I'm just curious. It's been four years. You think it's going to go on forever? Do you see it going on forever? You see. never ever ever communicating with them. again.

>> right now. Yeah. >> Yeah. Both do. On a cautionary note, you. are presenting your children with a role. model of how to handle conflict. And. that is and that's a concern. You you. are showing them that people can be cut. out of your life. And so that is a role. model because I'll I'll sometimes work. with a with a parent um who will say, "Well, you did it, mom. You cut you cut. out your grandma, so why can't I cut out. you?" So, I mean, it's an adult child. So, we just have to be very mindful of. every layer of this. Oh, >> yes. >> I thought about that. Um.

I think you're try you will try knowing. what you all do about the importance of. your inner subjective experience as. being an individual. You're going to. pass that on to your child that what. people make you feel inside matters. Okay? And that has to be taken into. account. It's not a solution just to cut. somebody out for no reason, of course. But if there are reasons, there are. people that we the the role model that. you're becoming is if there are people.

that are uh harmful to you emotionally, you do have the right to keep as much. distance, maybe not total cut off or. whatever, you have the right to decide. the optimal distance that you're going. to have in your relationship with them. that is preparing them for adult life. So don't see it as you giving them cart. blanch about cut anybody out that you. don't like. You're saying, you know, you. have to come to that decision about. what's best for you and we would be here.

to talk with you about that if you ever. needed that. >> Thanks Chris and Bri. Thank you. Thank. you, Bristol. >> Hi. Um, I first want to start off by. saying thank you for creating space to. have this conversation. When I first. made the decision to go no contact, I. felt so alone. Um, so this conversation. means the world to me. >> So, when did you make when did you first. make the decision to go no contact? >> Um, as sad as it is to say, ever since I.

was young, I knew I would be no contact. I knew I didn't want my family. >> You're still young, Bristol. Let me tell. you that. >> Yeah. No, but [laughter]. what do you mean? What do you mean by. young? Okay. >> No, like just being. >> years old. Yeah. And and I had family. that saw how I was treated as well. >> Um and tried to step in. So it's it's. something I sadly always knew. >> Is it like what Chris said, there isn't. one thing, but there was a series of. things. >> Yeah, it is multiple events. So you it's. not just one traumatic event.

>> What was the final straw for you that. that you said that's it? No more. I've. had enough. Um, it was a phone call actually where. I, you know, I spent my whole life. trying to change every aspect of myself. to be the perfect daughter and to make. the relationship work. And it was a. phone call where I tried to set a. boundary of just don't talk so rudely. about your children. Like we we're not. punching bags. Um, and she my mom is.

actually the one that blocked me. initially. So, she's the one that laid. down that foundation and. >> I followed suit and just cut off contact. everywhere else. >> I I hear you have a question for Dr. Gibson. >> Yeah, I do. Um, so I have no regrets. about my decision to go no contact, but. every time I see a girl with her mom or. dad, it physically aches in my heart. And so does the longing for that. connection despite never experiencing it.

myself ever go away or do you just learn. to live with it? >> Yeah. I mean it's like any terrible. loss. >> Yeah. >> Do any of our terrible losses ever go. away? We all know that it never goes. away. Okay. But I think our job in this. kind of situation is to enlarge. ourselves. so that we know ourselves better. So. that we are expanding our own life so. that this terribly hurtful loss becomes.

a part an integrated part of the. tapestry of your life of your overall. life. It'll never go away but it's not. all there is to you. And so you carry. this, I see it as as part of your. increased complexity as a human being, your increased depth, and your ability. to know what it is that's good for you. and not good for you. And when you bring.

all that together, yes, that feeling is. still there, but the context is now so. much bigger because you're a much more. complex person. >> Ned, you wanted to say what about this? Yeah, I think that void gets smaller as. time passes, but there will always be. something there because you do have a. mother. You do have that part of your. family and both things can exist. You. can miss people and decide to not have. that relationship and you don't get to.

erase the feelings in either direction. So, it's something that you'll come to. live with. >> Thank you. >> But how's your life otherwise? Do you. miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss. miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss. miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss. miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss. miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss. miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss. miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss. miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss. miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss. miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss. miss miss the contact with them or have. you been able to create a life that's. full and vibrant without them. >> I love my life like I have I have five. animals um so I've created my own family. I. >> when I went off to college I am used to. spending holidays alone so it's not like. much has changed I'm just not being.

walked all over actually so it's it's I. know peace for the first time um it's. amazing I felt my nervous system leave. fight or flight and I. >> I think this is so fascinating to me. because I've been doing this so long. [laughter] and I remember in the early. days doing this people just suffered. they just went through hell with their. parents and we were always talking about. relationships with your parents. Have. you as therapists seen it evolve over. the years also? >> Oh absolutely. You know, and I think one.

of the things um Oprah is that there was. a study done in 2016 which showed that. that our ideas about what constitutes. harm, abuse, trauma, and neglect have. radically expanded the past three. decades. Radically expanded. So what. often happens is an adult child like any. of you may come help your parent go, "You emotionally abused me. You. neglected me. You traumatized me." And. your parents are going to be like, "What. the hell? You I would have killed for a. childhood like yours." Yeah. So, generations are talking past each other.

I mean, it's kind of incumbent on us as. parents to really learn how to speak the. language of our adult children if we. want to have a relationship with them. But that is one of the most significant. changes is our our expanded views of. what constitutes abuse and harm. >> and that has changed. >> That is and has evolved exponentially in. the past several years. >> Exactly. Well, the past few decades, but. but social media is an enormous. amplifier of that. >> Yeah. Thank you, Bristol. Thank you so. much. We have another Bria in our. audience. This Bri is with two Ye's in.

case you're going to get them confused. Okay. So, you've decided no contact with. your mom. What happened? >> Yeah. So, my mom abruptly stepped away. from our family when I was 6 years old. to be with someone else. And not only. did she leave my dad, she didn't want to. be a mother to me at that point either. And so throughout. >> So, your mom basically abandoned you? >> Yes. >> When you were six. >> Yep. She didn't She was just like. >> She left to go with an old boyfriend. >> Yep. she decided to go be with her. college boyfriend and she wanted to kind. of just live this new child-free life. >> And um it was very jarring and traumatic.

for me because I was used to having a. two parent household and doing things. with them and just it was just a night. and day. And. >> at that point she just kind of stepped. away. Didn't really have as much. contact. Um would see her sometimes. It. was very off and on. And I would try and. whenever I would try I felt like I would. be let down. I had a wonderful dad who. like filled the gap, but it's just like. just no mom. And I would see all these. girls being raised as their moms and I. wanted that. And so when I was in. college, I extended an olive branch and.

I invited her to my college graduation. and she ended up humiliating me. Um I. was on the floor with the graduates and. I saw this crowd of people walking. towards me, security um the the. counselors and looked in the middle. It's my mom. They brought her towards. me. They said, "Bri, it's been an. emergency." So I'm like, you know what's. going on? and she's just like, "I'm. ready to leave." Like, "We're about to. go," her and her boyfriend. And that was. what the emergency was in front of all. the graduates before I even walked. >> And so, um, I was balling, crying, the.

whole stadium's looking at me. And from. that point on, I was like, "This is. done." Like, she does not have a a care. for me. And with me being a mom now, >> she couldn't leave quietly. >> and she couldn't just get up and go. >> I know. [laughter]. >> And so, >> she had to cause a scene. Yeah. >> A whole scene. And so, [clears throat]. like, I'm a mom now and I'm a single. mom. And so, there's points in. motherhood where I'm like, like I I get. that it can be a lot like you know, but. I could never just walk away from my. child. Like, I just couldn't understand. doing that. And so, I get a lot of.

judgment for it. Like, when something. happens and people are like, you know, your mom isn't feeling well or something. like that. Like, it's like, you know, I. don't have that empathy cuz it's just. like, you know, she didn't really have. it for me. And it's it's hard for me. because it's like, you know, I. understand, you know, like that she is. my mother and this whole you only have. one mother thing. However, we did not. have that relationship. And so what. weighs on my heart and mind a lot is the. forgiveness. And sometimes I'm like, will I ever be able to just forgive her.

and let this go? Because it's like, you. know, some people's mothers have passed. away. My mother lived 20 minutes from me. my whole life, you know, and just didn't. want to see. >> and didn't didn't see you. >> Yeah. And just didn't want to see me by. choice. Well, I think that's so. interesting because people use that. phrase, particularly in our culture, you. only have one mother. >> Uh, and they use that to guilt you. No. matter what's been done to you, no. matter what you've been through, you. only have one mother. And it sounds like. that you allow that sometimes to bother.

you, right? You you feel the you feel. embarrassed or the shame of that in some. way. >> Absolutely. I'm very empathetic. And. it's the fact that it's like I do. understand she is my mother. However, it's like we just we don't have that. relationship you know and so it's just. like you know. >> she was never there for me like you know. and and whenever I would try it would be. I would be met with hurt and so it's. like you know I want to be able to like. forgive her for my own peace and mind. not to bridge the relationship but just.

to like have some kind of a start to. healing. So your question is. >> So my question for Nedra is um how do I. carry the the void of the disappointment. and the hurt um and the distance but. also like is there is there a chance. that I could truly forgive her and be. able to kind of move on even though we. obviously are both still you know here. in the world. >> I think you have to accept that. people can birth a child without.

parenting them. And what I'm hearing in your situation. is you have a mother, but you don't have. the nurturing of one. And it's very hard. to reconcile that while you're. mothering, right? And other people are. being motherthered and they're telling. you about their mother and you should do. this for your mother, but you don't have. that that role or that connection with. your mother. And so it's very important. for you to accept that you can give. birth without parenting.

I think you also need to allow yourself. to be angry because sometimes we're. we're not making room for that and we're. just rushing toward forgiveness. I have. to hurry up and. >> especially if you live in a culture that. says but it's your mother and it's the. only mother you have. >> but you are her daughter but you are her. daughter. And so on both sides if we're. going to say but this is your mother, this is your father, you are also a. daughter and you get to be upset about. not being parented. >> Yeah. After you work through that stuff,

what does forgiveness mean for you? Because you can forgive and reconcile. You can forgive and continue to not have. her be a part of your life. You can. forgive and readjust what the. relationship is. Maybe she's not a. mother, but she's a great friend. So, you get to decide what that forgiveness. is. Did. >> you see her just do this? [laughter]. >> Or maybe an associate [laughter]. Maybe maybe she's an associate. I'm not.

sure. But perhaps there is something. there. If you can remove that. expectation of parenting from her. because she hasn't done it and she's not. doing it, maybe there's a little bit. left there that you can have. I don't. know what that is. And maybe it's. nothing. But you decide what that. forgiveness looks like. And it sounds. like you have learned how to be a. nurturer even though you didn't have it. >> Yeah. And and may I say this that that. in all the years of all the shows and.

all the experts, my best example or best. definition for me of forgiveness that. has carried me through many uh a. situation is that forgiveness is giving. up the hope. that the past could be any different. I. don't even remember who said that so. many years ago. But when they said it, the hairs on my arm raised because I was. like, "Wow, it's not even about that. other person. It's about you giving up. the hope and you accepting finally that.

this, as Bristol has already done, uh. that the relationship is what it is and. there's not going to be one thing you. can change. You cannot change yourself. You cannot change that situation. Give. up the hope that it's going to be. anything other than what it is." and. accept the reality of it. That's what I. hear Nedra saying. Once you accept the. reality of it, you can meet her where. she is or not meet her at all. >> Yeah. You understand? >> Yeah. The only thing I would add to that. is we can't really forgive people who've. hurt us unless we really believe we.

didn't deserve to have what happened. I. mean, you were abandoned by your mother. She treated you really poorly. And you. probably don't yet fully know that you. really didn't deserve that. You might. consciously feel like you don't deserve. that. But we can't really forgive. somebody until we really really know in. our guts that we didn't deserve to be. mistreated. So usually compassion can. come follow from that. Well, we have. some parents here who have a different. perspective. First, watch this short. clip of what a mother named Christy. posted on her social. >> So, I'm going to ruffle some feathers.

with this one, but but I don't care. So, I'm going to address a comment that. repeatedly gets commented on my post and. other people talking about arangement. And it's the comment that says, "Your. children are not estranging from you to. hurt you. They're doing it to protect. themselves.". I call BS. What are they protecting. themselves from with us? Loving parents. who've always supported them. Loving. parents who's always, you know, done.

everything in their power to be there. for them. Who financially has supported. them? who has went out of their way and. put their life on the back burner for. their kids. What are they protecting. themselves from? >> Okay, Chrissy. So, I you've had no. contact with your daughter now for what, three years? >> Um, my daughter, yes, she's estranged. from my side of the family three times. in seven years. The last arangement came. as a shock because we had reconnected. for two and a half years. I let my guard.

down. We got matching family tattoos, beach vacations with me and her. brothers. And so I thought, "We made it. We're golden. We're we're not I'm not. going to lose her again." And bam, a. little conflict happened and out the. door. And I tried to talk to her. And I. was like, "We need to sit down. Can we. just please sit down and talk?" And. like, "Why are you so upset?" It was. something so minor. And she refused to. communicate with her brothers and I. She's cut my mother off. The only. grandmother she's ever had who's. completely heartbroken. Her brothers.

don't have a sister. you know contact with them. Yes. >> Yes. And in the beginning the first. estrangement I will give you know it. wasn't her fault. She was 17 18 years. old. I went through a divorce. She felt. she had to choose and she didn't choose. me. We worked through that you know and. she explained some things to me and I. understood it. Um but now she's 25. almost 26. She knows I'm a good person. She even you know we made Tik Toks. together. She made me beautiful Tik Tok. and that I have pinned on my profile, you know, and you know, literally.

Mother's Day and then two weeks later. there was a conflict. So my daughter, she is smart, she's funny, I've she was. a joy to raise, she's a college. graduate, but I feel she lacks conflict. resolution skills. And I I just feel. like my question to the therapist is how. how do we move forward to help parents. and children that weren't an abusive. parents? Like a lot of us are really. good parents. We aren't deserving of.

this. How do we teach parents and. children that we can work through the. messy hard stuff so that we can talk and. not go no contact? Because I'm not going. to lie, like it's been 3 and 1/2 years, no word at all. And the glimmer of hope. of us ever reconnecting is is. going away. You know, I talk about a. platform and give parents a place to be. seen and heard. And you know, when I. when it first started happening to me, I.

was like you. I was like, I thought I. was alone. So now I have a platform. where parents can be seen and heard. because we are villainized. And that. video was about how villainized we. become on that app. >> What was the response to that video? >> Um, parents were thankful and you know, so many I felt like I was alone. And to. be honest, so many of us parents, I'm. not a therapist, but I've heard hundreds. of stories. So many of us never even got. the opportunity to sit down and talk to. our children. Listen, I'm all about we.

don't decide what hurt. We don't get to. decide what hurt someone. They don't get. to decide what hurt us. So, if my. daughter came to me and said, "Mom, can. we talk?" Heck, yes, absolutely. I would. take ownership of anything she said I. did to hurt her because I don't get to. decide what hurt her. >> Okay. >> But she refuses. >> Well, you know, that brings me to the. point when you said the thing, the. reason we are not talking now, it was. such a little thing. >> We all are wondering what little thing. was that? >> What was that? And you know what I was.

going to say, but I didn't want to. interrupt you. Mhm. >> Maybe it was a little obviously it was a. little thing to you, but it wasn't a. little thing to her. >> It was something she didn't get her way. >> Okay. >> She didn't get her way. And you know, my. boys are in my life. I'm a mom of three. They reassure me all the time. Mom, you. are not a bad mom. >> Do you have a specific question for for. >> My question is how do we how do we work. on teaching conflict resolution skills. so that the no contact doesn't start? Because we all know once it starts, it's. a hard thing to go back from.

>> Yeah. So, >> I mean, what I always tell parents is. you have to start with telling your. adult child that I know you wouldn't do. this unless you felt like it was the. healthiest thing for you to do. Now, it. may not feel that way to. >> Is that the first rule of arangement? >> That's the first rule of reconciliation. >> Okay. >> Yeah. The first thing is you have to. reach out to your adult child and say, "You wouldn't do this unless you felt. like it was the healthiest thing for you. to do." Now, you may not feel like you. probably don't feel like it's the. healthiest thing to do. I, as a. therapist, may not not feel like it's. the healthiest thing to do, but it. doesn't matter. your kid does and.

there's no way they're going to come to. the table unless you do. Second of all, you have to find the kernel if not the. bushel of truth in their in their. complaints. And maybe you did all that. I mean, I get it. You're right. Some of. these adult children who cut out. contact, they're conflict avoidant. They. don't know how to have a conversation. and they tell their parents that they're. gaslighting them or they're, you know, emotionally immature. Sorry. Or they're, you know, narcissist or whatever. uh and. it's actually that they have mental. health issues. Yes. You know, or they're. being negatively influenced after after. a divorce. Yes. Or they're married to. somebody who says, "Choose them or me.

You can't have both." Or they're. involved with a therapist who assumes. everything's a result of parental. trauma. Or they don't know any other way. to feel separate from the parent other. than cut them off. But this idea that. it's only bad parents who are getting. cut off. I'm sorry. I call bull on that. >> Thank you. Thank you. You agree with my. TikTok. [laughter]. >> Uh so we have another motherhood, Kendall. Kendall. >> Hi. >> Yes, I am estranged for my 30-year-old. son by choice. And what I do notice even. in the room when the children were.

speaking, people were kind of nodding. and agreeing with them. But the moment. Christy started telling her side of the. story, people were kind of like, you. know what I'm saying? My platform speaks. similar to hers on behalf of the parent. because parents are suffering in. silence. And when children become. aranged, they are celebrated. They're. supported. people rally behind them, but. when the mother decides to go no contact. with her child, she's demonized. >> And that's been my experience. >> You made the decision to go no contact.

Why? With your son. >> My son has been he's caused me verbal, emotional, physical trauma, and financial trauma. for over 15 years now. >> And you just decided enough. >> Two years ago, he threatened my husband. and myself. And I made a conscious. decision that that was the last straw. >> Yeah. Because he didn't get his way. >> He didn't get his way. >> Yeah. >> And has he respected the no contact? >> No, >> he has not. >> No, he has not. He sends threats that if. we don't unblock him. He just threatened. my husband yesterday as I got off a.

flight. >> Yeah. >> Saying if we don't unblock him, if we. don't, you know, if I don't speak to. him, he's going to do some harm to us. >> Wow. >> So, that's been my experience. And. parents don't go no contact for very. small reasons. It takes a lot for a. mother to make that conscious choice. And I've been experiencing this for over. 15 years since his dad and I got a. divorce and I got remarried 18 years. ago. >> And you have a question? >> My question is why are parents always. demonized when they speak their truths.

or when they make a conscious decision. to go no contact? But aranged children. are celebrated and rally behind. >> Good question. Who wants to answer that? If someone was coming in to see me uh as. their therapist, I'm listening for what. that person's experience is. And I have. had parents come in whose children are. asking for money or they're making the. parent feel morally obligated to give. them exactly what they want. It's the.

emotional immaturity switched. Okay? I. mean, you don't have to be a the parent. or the adult child to be emotionally. immature. And so whatever it is that is. crossing the boundary of the. relationship or the other person's right. to their own life or to their right to. say no. I mean that has to be dealt with. every time in order to keep your own. stability and mental health. So I see it.

very much as going both ways. whoever it. is is that's going across the boundary. and saying, "You have to give me what I. need because I'm the most important. person in the relationship here." In. effect, um whether that's parent or. child, that has to be addressed and it's. for your own mental health. >> I would add to that that um for a parent. um when they're estranged, there's no. upside to being an aranged parent. It's.

all downside. It's all heartbreak. It's. all shame. It's all getting cut off from. your grandchildren. Um it's all guilt. It's all sorrow. It's regret. Whereas. when you're an adult child, it's I mean, you're not doing it unless you were in. pain in the first place. I I get that. But but it's also wedded to our very. powerful themes of identity and personal. growth and personal happiness and. protecting my mental health. And those. are much more resonant themes in our. culture. So they're much more likely to. catch fire than, you know, some parent.

is getting cut off. >> Well, thank you so much. I wanted to now. bring in Aaron. Aaron is a husband and. father of four whose oldest daughter. chose to go no contact. >> Correct. >> For three years, >> correct? >> Before reconciling, >> correct? >> Take a look at what he shared with other. parents about that experience. Parents, no one prepares you for the silence. after no contact with your adult.

children. One day you're texting, "I love you.". The next you're staring at a phone that. doesn't ring. That silence, it doesn't just hurt, it haunts you. >> Wow. >> Painful. >> Painful. >> It's painful. It's very, very painful. >> So, what what's your story, Eric? >> So, my story was my daughter uh I think.

it was around 2021, she decided to go no contact. That. turned into three years of no contact. Three years. And I'm gonna be honest. with you guys. I thought I was a great. father. I really did. I thought I was a. great father. I did the best that I. could. Uh provided her with everything, took care of her, just did everything I. thought that I was supposed to. >> Yeah. >> But what she told me and when we had the. conversation, she said, "Dad, you're a. helicopter parent." I said, "A.

helicopter parent? I didn't know what. that was." Again, I didn't know what. that was. She told me I was a helicopter. parent. And a parent, a helicopter. parent is a parent that wants to fix. everything. >> And and then I started thinking about. it. She was right. I was a helicopter. parent. I was trying to fix everything. I was always doing too much. I was. overstepping my boundaries. And I had to. realize that and understand that. >> But weren't you doing that as a man. providing for his family, trying to. protect his family, wanting the best for.

your children? You were not doing that. because you were trying to inhibit her. You were doing that because you wanted. the best for your children. >> Correct. >> Yes. >> But then she also told me I didn't. listen. She wasn't wrong about that. either. I don't listen. Okay. >> I'm hard-headed. >> You know what I mean? I You know, so she. wasn't wrong about that. But she told me. she said you're a helicopter parent. >> So was did is she having this. conversation after the 3 years? >> Correct. >> Okay. >> After the three years. >> So for three years she said nothing. >> Nothing. >> You thought everything was great. >> I thought everything was great and then. my wife reached out to her and she.

didn't respond to my wife and my wife. kept trying to reach out to her. >> Is your wife her mother? >> Her mother. Correct. Okay. Okay. >> Yeah. She kept trying to reach out to. her. And then we went through a. situation where we started talking to. her roommate, just trying to figure out. what's going on. No contact, no. communication, no nothing. >> Yeah. >> So then she needed some help, of course. So she calls me. Dad, can you help me? I'm enrolling in college again. Okay, cool. I was just happy to hear her. voice. >> Yeah. >> So I haven't heard from her in so long. So she came over. We talked and she. that's when she told me. She said, "Dad,

you're a helicopter parent." And I'm. look and I'm going tell you. So, you. were willing to help her even though she. hadn't spoken to you all these years. >> Oh, yeah. That's my baby. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Oh, yeah. I don't I got you. Okay. >> You know what I mean? I'm I'm I'm going. to help you as long as I'm living. So, then after the conversation, she said I. said, "Well, how can we work on our. relationship? What can we do?" She said, "I'll tell you what we can do. We can go. to therapy." As a man, I did not want to. go to therapy. I'm going to be real with. y'all today. I did not want to do I. didn't want to go and be vulnerable to. somebody that I don't know. M.

>> So went to therapy cuz I wanted to get. my baby back. So I went to therapy. We. And therapist, the therapist told me, she said, "Listen, Aaron, >> what you got to do and you got to. understand, you have to parent your. children at different stages. differently. You're still trying to. control her like she's a teenager. You're still trying to do too much like. she's a teenager. >> She's a full-fledged adult.". >> Yeah. >> Understand that. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? So that changed my. whole outlook. >> Yeah. And then the therapist also told.

her she has to learn how to communicate. and stop running. A lot of adult. children run and hide when they don't. get their way. >> Yeah. >> Or when their parents don't. >> I think this is so interesting. I have a. friend who just went through is is going. through this with her daughter and she. said, "We had gone out for Thai food and. bowling.". >> Correct. >> I thought everything was fantastic and. then I get a letter a letter arrives in. the mail telling me from this day. forward no contact. and she thought. something had happened to her daughter. She thought like it was like that her.

daughter had been kidnapped or somebody. had done some harm to her. She calls the. police. They go to their part. All of. that. So, I think it's harder when you. don't even you don't know where it's. coming from. Yeah. I think this. situation where they tried to work it. out. You tried to get them to accept. your your new wife. You tried to get. them to accept that you're having a. child. Very different than if you just. suddenly disappear and nobody knows what. it is. >> Correct. Yes. >> No, I totally agree. >> So, the positive, our relationship now.

is phenomenal. We worked it out. We. learned how to communicate. I backed up. Like, I backed up. So, what I started. doing now, and I'm going tell you. parents out there, this is how you can. help your situation. First thing first, stop overstepping boundaries. Stop. overstepping boundaries. Just have a. normal conversation with your adult. child. you know, if they ask for any. more information or or if they need a. question answered, answer that question. But stop overstepping boundaries. That's.

what I did. That changed my. relationship. >> Yeah. I I we're so happy to hear that. your story worked out. But I also can. hear that every situation is different. Correct. I mean, in Kendall's situation. where there is verbal and physical. abuse. Correct. Uh-uh. No. Exactly. Not. not tolerating that. >> And I agree what you said earlier, too. In our generation, way we grew up, you. know, you loved your parents no matter. what. Yeah, >> they're not doing that no more. They're. not doing that anymore. And now that you. think about it, hey, you know, I can see. some of these situations. I understand. >> Yeah, I know. I mean, listen, I've been.

doing it so long that people were like. severely abused physically, emotionally, >> and still felt like they had to, you. know, tolerate whatever from their. parents. So, I think some of it's good. some of this being able to uh I think. reaching a state where you're able to. honor and protect your own emotional and. mental health. That's a good thing. That. means that we are evolving as human. beings. Have we gone too far? That's the. question.

>> Well, what I'm what I'm hearing a little. bit of is if someone isn't coming to me. with an issue, it's very it's very. important to ask ourselves why. M. >> do they not feel safe with me? Is there. something maybe I've done in the past. that has prohibited them from wanting to. clear the air, talk about an issue with. me? Sometimes we don't recognize that. with ourselves. We think, "Oh, I'm just. being a dad. I'm just being a mom." But. what's actually happening is you're. overstepping their adult boundaries. But.

isn't it also true though that because. because Aaron and I were talking about. being raised in a different time that a. lot of the parents who are parenting. kids, they're raising kids the way they. were raised. And so you're raised not to. come to your parents with your problems. You're raised not to have conflict with. your parents. You're raised not to. disagree with your parents. So nobody. knows how to even begin to have that. conversation because your whole life you. weren't allowed to disagree because you. always had to be compliant. >> Correct. >> Yeah. But just as the kids have more.

information and we know gaslighting and. we know nurses, we know all these terms, it's also available for parents to find. and understand these things as well. >> Okay. You want to say that? Yes, Dr. Gibson. >> Yeah. No, I was I was just going to say. that um. you show the one thing that turns this. thing around and that's the willingness. to self-reflect. >> Correct. Oh, >> you I mean that is the the change agent.

>> because if you can't reflect on your own. behavior and say, "Gee, I yeah, I wonder. if there was something I did correct. >> that may have contributed to this." A. lot of times when people are scared and. they're in fear of loss, their first. reaction, of course, is to be defensive. and to find all the reasons why they're. not the bad guy because that feels. horrible. >> Which is what Dr. Coleman did the first. when his daughter had the conversation. >> Anybody would do that because. >> that's what it's what we do. It's your. natural reaction.

>> It's like you've just been injured. Okay. Your first reaction is going to be. to clench and to defend. Okay. But. nothing can change until you ask that. question, which is, gee, I wonder if. there was something that I did, too. Once you do that, you begin to become. more objective and you certainly become. more receptive to your adult child and. that is the platform from which you can. have a different relationship. So I just.

wanted to point that that is a hallmark. of emotional maturity. that you can self-reflect and understand. that you are not the most important. person in the relationship. >> You are the hallmark of emotional. maturity. Very good. [laughter]. Fantastic. >> All with it. Thank you for saying that. >> Thank you, Erin. >> I I think that absolutely you would want. to hear what your daughter had to say. that you would want to to work it out. and do that conflict resolution.

Absolutely. The problem is that some of. us have such a strong personality and. such a strong way of engaging other. people that it becomes a little. intimidating and we don't know we're. doing it because we this is our energy. Yeah. >> Okay. This is what we This is who we. are. So, one of the things we have to. remember is that when you're trying to. get someone to engage with you in. conflict resolution that you have to be. aware that you may have more power than.

you actually think you do. And they may. be backing up from that. >> in a way that feels unnecessary to you, >> but to them it may feel like I can't. stand my ground with this person. And if. you feel like there's no hope of. standing my ground, there's no hope of. the conflict resolution. So, I think we. have to just be aware of how we come. across with our energy. There's nothing. wrong with it. There's nothing wrong. with being a strong personality. >> Yeah. My my sons communicate well with.

me. The problem is is it's not all on my. daughter. I'm not saying that. But she. has cut her father off. She's cut other. people off. When there's a conflict, I. feel like she lacks that those skills. with anyone, not just me. Well, is it. that she lacks the skills or that she. lacks the feeling of personal power. >> that she could that she could stay? >> You just said something and this is. definitely not a criticism, but I'm just. going to say to but because I said it's. not a criticism, we don't think it is a. criticism. [laughter]. >> Uh, but.

>> I'm used to it. I take it all the time. on TikTok. >> This is just this is this is what what I. noticed that you said and I just wanted. to bring up this point uh from Dr. Coin's book that there are separate. realities in every family. And for. years, I've had multiple discussions. with lots of families and lots of. parents say what you just said, Chris. They say, "But my sons did this and my. other child did this and my other. everybody in the family in the same. family, you're doing the same thing with. all the kids. They're all having a.

different experience." Correct. >> Yeah. And not only is it correct, but. you know, our children also have they. kind of come into the world with a. certain temperament. If you've got, you. know, three kids, they might all have. really different temperaments. Some. might be really assertive, others might. be really resilient. Others might be. really conflict avoidant, anxious, depressive, and you know, how they see. us as parents is going to be reflected. through that filter. So, if you have a. kid who's sort of prone to depression or. anxiety, they're going to see they're. going to be much more reactive to you. They're going to be much more sensitive.

and they're going to later say, "Well, you were emotionally abusive. you're. going to be like the hell I was because. you're not really reading the world from. their perspective. And that's why I. agree with what what Lindsay is saying. that we we need to sort of see it. through their eyes, not through just our. own eyes. >> All your kids see see their experience. in the. >> I understand that. And like I said, I've. never had the opportunity to talk like. we've we we didn't come from a family. where we just fought and yelled. That. wasn't our family, >> you know. And in fact, you know, a lot.

of things were shoved under a rug. And I. have thought to myself, did I teach my. teach her how to communicate? You know, because a lot of things in my marriage. were shoved under rug. Not on my end, >> but it takes two people to talk. And if. there's not communication, so I've. thought, did we teach her that? Did we. teach her to just. >> where did she learn? Where did she learn. not to have conflict? >> But I can't make her talk to me. Like. she has to be wanting to come to me and. say, "Let's sit down. Let's go to. therapy. Let's talk about this." Because. I've said so many times on my platform,

I will own it. Bring it to me. I will. own it. I've not had that chance. And so. many other aranged parents haven't had. the chance either. >> Does she know you want that chance? That. >> Yes. I'm sure she's seen my Tik Toks. So, >> so we thought this was interesting. Thank you all so much. Uh, we thought. this was interesting. Hadley, stand up. So, Hadley, y'all, is a hospice nurse. and, uh, a New York Times bestselling. author about her experience. And she. says that sometimes her dying patients. will ask her to call their estranged.

adult children who have gone no contact. And when my team saw one of her videos, we, you know, wanted her to join us in. this conversation. Here's a quick look. If you are the type of person who. continues to be no contact with your. dying family member even after I as a. hospice nurse call you and say that that. is their final dying wish to talk to. you, then I think that's totally fine. I. don't judge you and I don't think you.

owe people who abused you peace. I don't. mind being the bad guy and telling them. no. I'll even update you when they pass. if you ask me to and be your shoulder to. cry on. And if all you feel is relief, that's totally normal, too. And you're. not a bad person. >> I, you know, when I first heard your. story and I hadn't seen you on Tik Tok, Tik Tok, I I was like, "Wow, what an. interesting thing. You're putting these. strange children with their with their. dying parents." But it's not that at all.

in most cases. In most cases, they. don't, right? They they they say, "No, I. don't want to see them.". >> They do in most cases, but it's. difficult. Um, I've had conversations. before where they say, "What should I. do?" And they asked me and that's um. that's very difficult. When I became a. hospice nurse 10 years ago, I was not. estranged from my own biological father. And about seven years ago, I did become. estranged from him. So, I really began. to understand more how those children.

are and what they're feeling whenever. they're getting that phone call. >> Wow. And so. what do you find when the people who are. dying ask to see their children? Are. they asking to see their children, their. estranged adult children, because they. want to apologize? Because they have. regrets, because they want to have final. words. >> I don't believe personally that they. usually want to apologize. Um because. they're telling me,

did they know that I'm dying? Um, it. almost feels like a guilt trip to me, like please tell them that I'm dying and. maybe they'll talk to me. >> Has anybody expressed, you know, regret. or grief that they were estranged from. their adult? did have one person in. particular I think of that really told. me that they had a lot of regrets and. they wanted to make amends and uh I did. with our social worker make that phone.

call to the child and asked if they. wanted to hear them out and give them. that chance. They ultimately decided not. to. They went really back and forth. They ultimately decided not to. So what. myself and the social worker did is we. offered for that patient to write a. letter to the child and we said after. you pass we'll make sure that they get. it. We can't promise that they'll read. it. Um and the patient decided to not. write that letter. >> Really? >> Mhm. >> You told my team that you think that.

this is often times uh a form of control. on the part of the parents. >> I do. Yes. >> Yeah. Well, first of all, what it takes. to be a hospice nurse. Can we just give. that a round of applause? Thank you. [applause]. That is. that is the Lord's work you are doing. for sure. And do you find that when. you're asked to reach out to these um. arange children, adult children, that. the adult children appreciate being.

reached out to or not? >> Not always. I think that um sometimes. they have no idea that anything about. their parent at all. Um and I'm usually. making these at like 11:00 a.m. on a. Tuesday and they're in the middle of a. workday and I think it's very jarring. understandably. >> Yeah. Right. And and and how long have. people been estranged from their. children? >> I think the most I've seen has been like. 20, 30 years. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can understand it's.

been 20 years. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> To get that phone call on a Tuesday. while you're working. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Hard. >> And then you call them after the person. has passed if they want you to. >> I ask them. Um or a social worker will. I ask and most times they do want to. know which I find interesting. They they. want to know that they've passed and I. understand that. I mean being estranged. myself, I think it would also be. extremely jarring to find that out from. like Facebook. >> Yeah. So you said you now are estranged. from your biological father. Yes.

>> Why can we ask? >> I say it's a million cuts that bled me. dry. And I could give you one reason, but I think that it wouldn't reflect the. entirety of the situation. And I think. that someone would judge that one. situation and say that wasn't enough of. a reason. And in reality, it wasn't just. that. It it was a million things before. that that led up to that. >> Yeah. It sounds like it's never one. thing. Yeah. >> Nobody does it over one thing. >> So, I thank you so much, Hadley, for. sharing that with us. I want to close.

with uh a word from our experts. Nedra, let's start with you. >> Well, I think there is hope because we. have more information on the topic. And. if we want to preserve relationships, we. have to be open to hard conversations. And sometimes we have to be the person. to start it. Whether that's the parent. or the child, we have to get out of. these patterns that we've been in with. our parent. if they've been doineering, if they've done something to us, we have.

to learn to use our words and speak up. I think that the boundaries that we're. starting to see with so many adults is. not necessarily a new thing, but people. are more vocal about wanting emotional. connection with their parents or not. wanting to be told who to marry or what. they should feel in certain situations. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. because we want to feel closer to our. families, but we also have to learn to.

deal with the conflict within our. families. And and I don't think. everybody is just like, I'm out of here. I've never had a conversation. Sometimes. people make it hard for us to talk. Some. people are intimidating. Some people. become defensive. And so it's hard to. tell a person who's doing that that. they're actually doing that. But if you. are disconnected in a relationship, you. have to look inward and you have to own. your part of it and not just assume that. this other person is wrong. It's two.

people perhaps we both did something. So. being open to that conflict is really. important for repair. >> That's what you said, Dr. Gibson. Self-reflection is the key. >> Yeah. I mean, it's the key for any. relationship to have things get better. Um, but I just wanted to mention that, you know, society and culturally what. we're all up against is that everybody. has tremendous.

stress in dealing with a very complex. world now. I mean, this is not the world. of 30 years ago even. Um, the things. that adult children are having to. >> uh think about, weigh, succeed in are. very different and it's very very. stressful. We don't have the energy to. put into relationships where someone is. going to be um continually pushing back. and making us feel that what is going on.

inside us is not valid or is not true in. some way. This old way of the respect. for the role itself, I think for the. role of the parent or the authority. figure, >> honor thy father, thy mother. >> Yes. Exactly. Yes. It says honor them. It doesn't say obey them, agree with. them, do whatever they say, make them. the most important person in the. relationship. So those days of the role. trumping everything else are gone.

People do not have the energy now to. sustain a relationship that is draining. or difficult or constantly um uh. conflictual. they do not have the energy. to keep on maintaining that and live. this very complex life. >> I think it's a very interesting thing. you just said the the the days of the. role. being the almighty. >> in the relationship because it's not.

about the role. It really is about the. relationship. >> and and that's what's happening to to. the these poor parents because they're. thinking that there is some security. there for them in the role. Okay. >> But what it's happened is that. >> and that's what people mean when they. say, "Oh, that's the you only mother, that's your only one." They're talking. about the role. You actually haven't had. a relationship with a mother who. motherthered you. >> Yeah. It it shifted from the role to.

relationship skills and to empathy and. to understanding the other person's. subjective experience. There has been a. ground shift in that. That's not going. to go backwards. People are not going to. become less aware and less conscious of. their own inner experience. The you know. the the the ship has sailed. And so we. have to find ways of understanding that. our kids are stressed. They're exhausted. in this very complex society. They don't. have a lot of extra energy to work stuff.

out with you. And so you have to if you. want to get along or re regain the. relationship, you have to treat them. like a treasured friend. >> Like how would you keep a friend that. you wanted to keep a cherished person? That's how you have to treat them. because they're exhausted. >> You'll have to improve the relationship. skills. >> Yes. Thank you. That's what I'm trying. to say. that the relationship skills. take have to take the place. >> You have to do that and not use the I'm.

your mother, I'm your father and so. automatically you should give me. whatever. >> Yes. Exactly. But but see nobody comes. along and tells the parent you have to. undergo this shift and you have to. understand now that it's going to be the. the quality of the relationship and the. empathy that's going to count. Nobody. told them that. Everybody's being caught. unaware by that. >> Well, I agree with all that. Um but but. I know there's a bug [laughter] coming. Yeah. >> But I would add that, you know, the. surgeon general recently came out and.

added parenting as one of the risks of. adulthood currently. And parents are. under enormous pressure, including. parents of adult children, in part. because the criteria of what constitutes. good parenting has gone through the. roof. I mean, it's what I call the. soulmate parent. You're not only. supposed to be, you know, get your kids. into out of the house and independent, you're also supposed to be sensitive and. empathic and psychological and a coach. and a learning disability specialist and. a, you know, a psychiatrist. And that's. a lot of pressure on parents. And then.

later, your adult child might strange. you because you didn't do one of those. things. I mean, I'll see letters from. adult children saying, "Well, you didn't. see that I was depressed when I was. young and get me help, so I don't owe. you a relationship." I'm like, "Well, your parent isn't a damn psychiatrist, you know?" I mean they didn't know that. you were were depressed and to cut off a. parent for that reason to me that just. seems wrong. Okay. Now final final. comment two things. One is um I have. close family who are in recovery and. I've learned a lot from the fourth step. which is that you make a fearless and. searching moral inventory of yourself.

This is similar to what Lindsay and and. Nedra are saying. You make a serious and. searching moral inventory of your own. character flaws because we all have. them. Y'all have them. We have them as. parents. Everybody has character flaws. And what I often tell parents is, you. know what, it's about humility. It's not. about humiliation. Because parents don't. really necessarily want to write that a. strange letter. It's probably hard for. you to hear what your daughter had to. say. It was hard for me, hear what my. daughter had to say, and to really open. myself up and be vulnerable. But I think. what we're all saying is nothing's going.

to happen unless that unless we can do. that, unless we can sort of see our own. character flaws. But I think adult. children also you have to see the ways. that you push your parent away or you. don't give them credit for the things. that they did or you don't recognize. that they might have grown up in a. culture that you know didn't um wasn't. so psychological, wasn't so emotional. and sensitive and love them anyway. See. that their efforts were still loving. And so those are my final words. >> Okay. I thank you all of you for being a.

part of this conversation. And for all. of you who were thinking, "Oh, you were. alone." Well, there's rules of. estrangement. There's adult children of. emotionally immature parents and. dramaree. People are writing about it. and now we're all talking about it. And. hopefully this has been eye opening for. many of you, particularly those of you. who are going through it. Thank you so. much for joining us. Go well. And we'll. meet up again next week. [applause]. You can subscribe to the Over Podcast on. YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple.

Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll. see you next week. Thanks everybody.