Oprah and renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel on What We Really Want in a Relationship

You resent him. >> [music]. >> or yourself for accepting it. Damn, you're good. >> [laughter]. >> Modern loneliness masks itself as. hyper-connectivity. >> Wow. You say couples are so damn tired. that they have sex really at the bottom. [music] of the to-do list. Here's the. amen choir over here. >> [laughter]. >> I hear like a third of [music] Americans. are having romantic relationships with. chatbots. What do you want to say about. this? I have a lot to say about this. >> a lot to say about this. Well, audience, we got something to talk about here.

today. >> I wish I brought my notebook. It's recorded. >> [laughter]. >> It's the Oprah podcast. >> [laughter]. >> Hey, hey, hey, everybody. It's so good. to be with you and thanks for joining. me. It is my delight and pleasure to. welcome back to the Oprah podcast the. one and only Esther Perel. THANK [applause] YOU.

SO, I WAS SAYING to the audience, you. all are so lucky. You're getting an. Esther session for free. >> [laughter]. >> She's a world-renowned psychotherapist. and relationship expert with what I. think is an extraordinary gift for. giving voice to our deepest desires. That's what you have been able to. connect to and she's celebrating the. 20th anniversary of her seminal. bestseller Mating in Captivity. It is.

her revelatory book about creating and. sustaining long-term desire and it. changed the conversation about what was. going on or really not going on. behind doors. And it's so interesting. I. was rereading recently and there's a. chapter where you say your mother told. you what you needed for marriage. Do you. remember that? Share with the audience what what you. share in the book about what your mother. said about you need commitment and. compromise and compromise yes.

>> you need the will you need to want you. need to want it. >> yes yes but things have changed a bit. since your mother's oh. my mother was probably not the best. teacher on that subject yeah actually. but I poured myself into one a set of. very specific questions at the time. right why does good intimacy. not guarantee good sex. why does good sex fade even in couples. who love each other as much as ever why. does sex make babies and baby spell.

erotic disaster in couples. >> mhm. why is the forbidden so erotic and when. you love how does it feel and when you. desire how is it different. those were. the question we got church we got desire. church already. >> [laughter]. >> yes those were the questions that fueled. you yes and I think these questions. still hold today. >> yeah I think we need this more than ever. today. >> that didn't really change and I and I I. looked at what is the tension that.

exists when our pursuit for secure love. clashes with our pursuit for freedom and. excitement. and the question was you know what is. the nature of erotic desire in the long. haul anyone have an answer. yet no okay that was the question I. still don't fully have an answer but I. spent 20 years after that really. deepening those very. those very questions what holds. excitement what how do we maintain. aliveness in a relationship in the long.

haul okay and so that's why you're. reissuing the book yes. >> to give us that answer. >> well to give us. a way to think about it. I don't know that there are. always specific answers. >> the specific answers. would mean that there's a general. overall answer for everybody. >> would be to say that Victoria's Secret. can solve it all and there is no. Victor's Secret. >> Yes, yes, yeah. You know, and there is. that that it's a matter of tips. I there. are a lot of different ways to think.

about it that actually can change your. life, but it's not just about tips. It's. about invitations. Right. How do we begin to institute that. in our lives? How do we do that? Desire is to own the wanting. It's when you know that you want. something and often you want it because. you can't have it. And you feel wanted because someone else. is choosing you Yeah. versus others. Yeah. And therefore makes.

>> Which is it's own eroticism to feel. wanted, isn't it? That's it. That's it. >> That's it. You know, I feel unique, indispensable, irreplaceable, I feel. chosen, I feel special, I feel wanted. Yeah. And I feel loved. >> And that's why so many relationships. fall apart cuz you no longer feel. desired or have the desire because. you're not desired. Correct. >> Mhm. That's what you just added is. important is that it is a reciprocal. cycle.

>> So of course I respond to your desire, you respond to mine. If I don't feel. yours, I can continue to feel desire. I. can continue to want someone who doesn't. want me. That exists, but there is. something different when I respond to. the wanting of someone else. Well, uh 20 years ago you wrote Intimacy has. become the sovereign antidote for lives. of increasing isolation. In our world of. instant communication, we supplement our. relationships. with an assortment of technological.

devices in the hope that all these. gizmos will strengthen our connections. This social frenzy masks a profound. hunger for human contact. Now you wrote. that in 2006. We barely had Facebook I. have the chills. And and and and you. knew then that there was a deeper shift. in relationships coming. How has. intimate contact changed in the 20 years. since you wrote this? You know what's interesting,

2006, I'm looking at how do we sustain. desire? 2026, I am more and more busy working with. people who don't know how to ignite it. in the first place. 2006, Charge. >> [laughter]. >> It helps. Yes. Yes. Keep doing it. Everybody would together. >> [laughter]. >> Well, audience, we got something to talk. about here today. Yeah. Okay. And then,

2006, basically, we were beginning to. postpone the age of commitment and. marriage. Beginning to postpone. >> Yes, by 10 years. Instead of being 19, 20, we became 29, 30. Yeah. Now, we. postpone. basically, sex for 10 years. It's not. happening at 16. It's our first. experiences is sometimes at 26. Related. sex. That means that there's an entire. decade of experiences. of looking at somebody, wondering if.

they're looking at you. Do we have eye contact? Is it me you're. looking at or it's actually the person. next to you? Maybe I don't have my. glasses, either. >> [laughter]. >> You know, um what sitting next to. someone, wondering if they're they're. going to touch your leg. If there's. going to be something. Am I as. interested as you're interested as. you're interest You know what I think it. is or am I completely delusional? All of. that. teenage, young 20s. is really diminishing in full force.

>> And why? Because of the devices? >> Because we live in a contactless world. more and more. Because we live in a world where we. don't need to leave home to do some of. the most important things that used to. put us into the world and into society. >> Yeah. Because we have gotten used to. having devices in our hands, >> Right. these gizmos. I can't believe I. even used that term then. You know, that. that basically try to give us instant. answers without any doubt and ambiguity. about where to go, what to do, what to.

eat, what to listen to next. And it is. polished, and it is wrinkle-free, and it. is so soft, and it is completely. frictionless. And now I want that same experience with. you, human. Mhm. And I want you to be as predictable. and as perfect and as wrinkle-free and. polished as this little thing that is. playing in my hand all the time. >> Yeah. And then I want no trouble from. you. I want [clears throat]. No. I don't want no trouble. No. I want. no trouble. I don't want you to have a.

bad mood. I don't want you to have. doubts. I don't want you to have needs. that compete with my own. And I. especially don't want you to disagree. with me. Wow. So, we can feel We can all. feel this, right? We can feel our. disconnection is getting worse, but you. say there's a path forward. What is it? I mean, the path forward is that we long for. connection. That has not changed. >> why we have the little gizmo in our. hand. That's why we're trying to. connect. The gizmo is an interesting.

paradox because we have never been more. connected and we have never been less. accessible. Ooh. We have never been more connected and we. have never been more disconnected. Modern loneliness masks itself as. hyperconnectivity. >> Yeah. Wow. Church. It's funny. It's like a. >> [laughter]. >> You You say couples are so damn tired. that they have sex really at the bottom. of the to-do list.

>> [laughter]. >> Here's the amen choir over here. >> [laughter]. >> No, no, this woman's list is so long. that the to-do. doesn't appear on the page anymore. >> even on the page. Yes. Yes, and that How. do we begin to flip that? I mean. the first thing is. I would say touch before sex. Touch. >> Just touch. We can live without sex, but. we can't really live without touch. We. become irritable, aggressive, depressed.

We are touch creatures. We are held for such a long period. before we can even crawl or walk. Mhm. You know, we we we need that kind of. physical connection. And one of the. things that is changing in this moment. is that we are more and more in a. disembodied reality. We are on screens. We don't look up. We. sit like this. We don't notice the. people around us. We don't We don't have. the opportunity to smell, to hear. gesture, rhythm, sound of voice. All. these things that come with a body.

And that is changing the way we love and. the way we desire. Wow. Esther says that. the three most common mating and sex. challenges people are facing today are. Gen Z is not having as much sex or even. dating. Audience, do you agree? Yes. Really? Okay. The second one is lack of desire, lack of desire, lack of desire. in midlife. And the third is how to find. love after heartbreak. And we're going.

to get to all. A lot of heartbreak in there. >> [laughter]. >> Okay, is this usual? No. No. All three on this podcast. Okay. >> have done them a few more. Yes. >> [laughter]. >> Okay, so Ali in our audience posted this. on TikTok about her take on dating. Let's take a look. Nobody talks about. the moment that you give up on dating. that just feels so good. Like I am just. done trying to find a man, a boyfriend.

Feels good to just like be like, you. know what? I'm focusing on me this year. Not that I ever was the type to really. go out and personally look for a. boyfriend, but it feels good to just. give up on dating and just be like, I. just don't really care. I know that. sounds bad, but oh well, I just don't. really want to focus on that. I want to. focus it on me, I want to have a career, my life, what makes me happy. Okay, Ali. Hi. >> Hi. >> [laughter]. >> Um. >> something happen? I feel like and I can.

speak to some women who are in Gen Z. I've had so many bad experiences dating. and when you have so many bad. experiences after bad experiences, it's. like riding a bike. It's like you fall. off the bike and then you fall off the. bike again. You're like, now I don't. want to get on the bike. You see the. bike and you're almost afraid of the. bike. You're like, keep it away from me. Um and my friends have had some. >> ask? >> Mhm. Can what do you What is bad. experience? >> experiences. Um just guys who I'll meet. them, they'll present to be one way at. first and they later find out that. they're a completely different version.

of themselves. >> Somebody's going like this right there. Yes. Um that's part of it or lying about. like big aspects of their lives like. careers or past people that they've. dated. So, it really kind of for me set. me back and didn't really want me to. date. It's not just me, it's my friends. I hear it from other people online on. social media as well and it makes you. not want to date anymore. So, I feel. like with dating a lot of women like. myself have been disappointed, right? You never want to feel disappointed in.

something, but a lot of men feel angry. So, I guess my question would be what do. men and women really want from each. other with dating and how is society. doing move forward? Okay, Esther. >> [laughter]. >> Yes, so probably Esther, yeah. But I I if you allow me, I was going. slightly in a different direction. because you made a point of saying I'm. going to focus on me. And you know, you probably have gone to. bad restaurants.

But that just meant that you didn't go. back to that restaurant. It didn't mean. that you stopped going to any. restaurant. Oh. It also means. >> church. It also means maybe the food was bad, but that doesn't mean you had an. indigestion. So you there there's range here. You know, do you do you date mostly on. apps? No, in real life and also on apps. So it's kind of a mix of the two. >> Okay. So you've had bad experiences,

but the reverse of that is not to go for. no experience. The reverse of that is to. become more aware, to learn, to. understand very quickly who you should. meet, who you shouldn't meet, to become. discerning. But what's interesting when you say I'm. going to focus on me, I'm going to focus. on my career, and there is no. relationships in there anymore. And we live in a network of. relationships. The romantic relationship. is one of them. You may have male. friends, you may have girlfriends, you. may have people that you work with who. you are friendly with.

It's not about I my whole psyche is. focused on meeting somebody, and it. takes all my energy, and there's nothing. left for me for anything else. And by. the way, dating often takes place away. from our life at this point. You know, and then after a while you have the big. reveal and you bring this person to your. friends, rather than meeting them. And. that is one of my suggestion. Whoever. you meet first, don't meet them alone. Meet them in your life. First of all, you'll have a lot of data.

points. Second of all, if it doesn't. work nice, you still have a nice time. with your friends who are there. You. don't feel like you went away, you. checked something out. Most dating. opportunities at this point are like job. interviews. They're not adventures. You know, bring the person into your. life. Whatever you were going to go do, ask suggest to them that they come and. do it with you. Have other people there, not to check them out, just because. that's what your life is. And then. you'll instantly know. And if he. doesn't, you won't have the sense like, "I've put all my energy into this.

There's nothing left. I'm done with. this. And now I'm just focusing on. myself cuz I lose myself when I go and. try to date." There's, you know, don't. lose yourself. Bring them into where you. are. Then you'll see. So, like you would. suggest like bringing them into my space. and maybe meeting them with a group of. people, so like friends, and then. somewhere I'm comfortable with. Join us. for whatever you're doing. >> Right. Correct. I mean, so much of the. date, exactly, so much of the date. is like meeting in an, first of all, in. a noisy place where you're trying to.

have a conversation and you ask a set of. questions. And then you look into see, are there any butterflies in here at the. same time? No, no, there's no. butterflies that can come from having. this kind of boring conversation. Do. your That's boring. They're boring. They're boring. Boring. You know. Integrate Whatever you were going to do, you were going to go hiking, biking, swimming, picnicking. Now, whatever you. do, I'm doing this, join me. >> Everybody's nodding. Doesn't it sound. really good? >> yeah. This sounds great.

>> exhausted. You're less feeling like I I. I I'm focused on dating, and the other. side is I'm focused on me. There's only. two options. >> Exactly. So, it makes it a little bit. like calmer, and then you can have your. friends kind of see what they think. about the person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you also you see them. interact with others instantly. Exactly. I love this idea. >> I mean, after all, what you're checking. out is to know, can we have can we have. a life together or a piece of a life. together? So, the best way to know that.

is to be ecological. Bring them in your. natural habitat. Actually, I like that idea. I've never. thought of it like that. I'm ne- It's a. great idea. >> I love that so much. We've never thought. of it that [applause] way before, nor. have I. It is for you. Thank you, Miss. Esther. Thank you so much. So, where's. Carly? Carly? Right here. Hi. Hi. So, [clears throat] tell us what's going on. with you, Carly? So very much so on that. similar vein. Um. I. >> saw the same guy.

Probably did. Actually, I think I saw your Tik Tok, but. I feel so blessed because my life right. now. is so full. and I have the most amazing support. system of friends around me and they. have set the standard for how I am loved. and cherished and how I should be. treated to be so incredibly high. And.

I think that These are male friends and. girlfriends? >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely both. Um. >> Largely girlfriends. Yeah. And. it feels to me. that. You're never going to find a man that. matches I'm never going to find a man. that matches them. Yeah, and I think. that. having somebody who can fill all of. those boxes and that I'm attracted to. and that is like has a wonderful career. of their own because the women around me. are building their careers and.

redecorating their homes and baking. cookies from scratch and planning. birthday parties for their friends. >> God bless them. >> [laughter]. >> They're amazing. >> May the Lord be with them and. and all that. I don't want one like that. in my house. >> [laughter]. >> But it's like I leave spending time with. them and I feel like the best version of. myself and I have never left a date or. hanging out with a man feeling like the. best version of myself, certainly. Um so. I guess my question.

my question is what if the most. important relationships in my life are. those friendships and what if that. romantic love never matches all of those. standards. That is quite possible. First of all, um. but I think that the first thing I would. say to you is. keep those friends, no matter who you. meet. Because you can't have one person, your. partner,

try to give you what an entire village. should provide. >> Right. So, what happens is that we have so. elevated the romantic relationship to. the the grand ambition of love is that. >> just need to go back to that point. again. That is such a huge amen point. I. remember Maya Angelou saying that to me. in my, you know, early early 20s. Do not. expect one partner to fulfill all the. areas of your life. She was saying your. whole your life is a pie. And so, do not. expect one person to fulfill all the.

elements of that. So, what you just said. is so vital, I think, for a lot of. people. >> in tribes. And when we lived in tribes, we had. multiple relationships. And the partner. was one of them. Then romanticism came. about and the grand ambition of love is. that I am everything for you and you are. every I need nothing more than when I. find you. And that crushes. Yeah. You. know, this notion of wanting one person. to give you what the whole village. should give is a disaster for couples.

It just makes you crush under the weight. of expectations. So, you keep your. friends. >> Very good. Then you say, you know, the. interesting thing is I've never seen my. a man on a date that with whom I left. feeling like I was the best version of. myself. That's the identity project of. relationships. You know, it just just. like you're going to help me become and. sustain who I am and you're going to. support all of that. That may be what. your partner does in part, but you have. a whole group of people who do that for. you. Mhm. I think that as long as you.

elevate what you you should be feeling. with this one person should give you. what that whole group of friends gives. you, you're going to be disappointed. >> Yeah. Cuz I think what I've been kind of. fed my 26 years is that. there's going to be a person that. matches every single mark, right? And that. what you bring to the table, that other. person will match that. Yeah. And that. That is a myth.

Just a spare part out. That's a myth. [applause]. Oh my god. And I And I think that myth. is what has got people so messed up. It. goes further. It's like you want your. partner to become your soulmate. The. soulmate for all of history was God. You know, now you want your partner to. be your soulmate with whom you're going. to experience ecstasy and wholeness and. meaning and transcendence and everything. else from the daily life. And he's going.

to be your the person with whom you have. family and economic security and status. and companionship and a trusted lover. and a passionate confidant and. intellectual equal and an intel- and a. big No, no, a sports coach. We need that. one in there. And a cook. >> [laughter]. >> And you know, your your fitness coach. and the cook and all of this in one. person. And you know, it's like we. brought into the social relationship. things that belong to the divine.

And then we brought into one romantic. relationship things that belong to an. entire community. It's a myth. and that will make you do, you know, the. same and say, "I'm giving up." Mhm. And. I don't want to give up. So, what should. we be looking for? What What What is the. answer? What are you looking for in the. mate? What are you looking for in your. partner? >> a lot of these things, but at the lesser. level. So, that when you say, you know, the people that say to me, "I have a. wonderful relationship. I've never tried.

to have a conversation with my partner. I talk with my girlfriends when I want. to talk. You know, they and or. I have a person who doesn't want to. travel. I travel This notion that you. have to, you know, the algorithm is. trying to make you have kind of an. algorithmic sameness. We love to travel, we like the same music, we like the same. books, we like the same food. What does. that have to do with life? You know, there's a so many things that. will happen. But if you if your partner. doesn't like that kind of music, you go. with your friends to to those concerts.

And if they don't like those movies, you. go with your friends to those movies. But what happens is we contract. Oh, if. you don't like those movies, I don't see. those movies anymore. He doesn't like. that kind of food or they or she doesn't. have to be any orientation here. It's. the person on the other side doesn't. like it when we only do what we both. like. And we only see the movies that we. both enjoy. And we only watch the series. at my fan. At the end there is. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. It's like, no, don't. Have enough of a. of a commonality. Have a shared set of.

values. Be drawn to each other. Enjoy. each other's company, but don't look for. sameness. If you want that, have a mirror. >> [applause]. >> Esther. Pastor Esther. Reverend Esther is preaching today. >> [laughter]. >> Tuba's 26 years old, and I hear you've. observed uh what different relationship.

patterns among the generations in your. family, right? >> Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you, Miss Esther and Miss Oprah for having us. here today. Grateful to be here. But. yeah, so I come from a family that has. seven generations represented. Um so. I've been able to take a look at how, you know, the different generations. interact with love. And my. >> Tony What's one thing you saw. that really you carry here inside your. pocket. One thing I saw.

that I carry in my pocket. I see music as a love language in a lot. of the relationships. that I've observed um. my parents, my mom sings and my dad. beats the drums. And so I've always seen. that relationship or communication. through a lot of different um yeah, members of my family. And what do you. do? I'm a poet. >> [laughter].

>> But my question for you is uh. I'm sure you know the quote. Toni. Morrison said, "Love either is or it. ain't. Then love isn't love at all.". And so we have these conversations. around the generations that older. generations think, you know, Gen Z and. Millennials experience thin love by. walking away too quickly. And then. Millennials and Gen Z think that Boomers. and Gen Xers. stay too long and they experience thick. love or too thick um staying past or.

staying in relationships that are no. longer viable or healthy. So, what advice do you have to people. dating in you know, in this modern. landscape who are trying to navigate. overstaying and leaving too quickly? So, just how thick should healthy love be? What a beautiful question. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is an applause to. you. >> [applause]. >> That's a question from a poet.

Straddling relational ambivalence. That's really what you're asking. How do. we straddle it? How hard, how much do I. try, how much do I give up? When do I know. if it was s- clear, this would be a. science, but it is not and therefore. it's an art. Mhm. So, there is no exact answer to this. What you will see across the generations. is that there was indeed a generation.

for. that had thick because the conditions. were different. There were many more children. Women. couldn't really leave. They would love. There was no fault divorce. Um the legalities were not in place. And. so, the notion was, you know, you stick. together and, you know, to say in the. United States, a marriage is a welfare. state of two. So, then you have individualism. And. individualism puts the focus more on me, my needs, my well-being, my happiness.

And therefore, I'm more likely to leave. sooner. That's a few generations later. So, now we have the I'm more likely to. leave sooner. We did that with jobs, too. But at this moment, we are going. from job hopping to job hugging. Mhm. We're staying put because we're feeling. the uncertainty of the world, because. we're feeling the destabilization, and. therefore, we're holding on. We're going. to start doing that more with. relationships, too. You will see that after Gen Z, they. probably will become These are pendulums.

>> Mhm. between how much do I put the needs. of the collective ahead of me, my. family, how much do I put my needs ahead. of me, me. And it shifts. Thank you. Thank you for that. You said. we're the welfare state of two. Marriage. in America is a welfare state of two. What did you mean? >> That you don't have socialized medicine. You don't have free education that is. very good for a lot of people. You have. You When the When a couple comes. together, it really basically becomes a.

social welfare system as much as it also. is a romantic enterprise. It has a lot. of things that it needs to accomplish at. the same time. Mhm. Got it. >> And it has a nuclear family model. Your. probably your your generations before. were not nuclear models. You had extended families. Yeah. So, you. had a set of responsibilities that were. spread around. We we we contracted. everything. Two people, a few little. Smurfs. >> [laughter].

>> And a ton of responsibilities. Yeah. >> And they do it all alone. And then they. become and it's become so important to. be self-supported, self-sustaining, and. to be able to do this on your own that. first you. pay for whatever problem you have. And. then maybe you'll go and burden a friend. and impose on them and ask them if they. can help you. It's really lopsided. So, your friends, I hope they will be. there for you and they will help you. And they will share with you that.

whatever is happening in your life. >> Yeah. I mean, we need community at at. scale all the time. And romantic love. has really taken away the scale and it. has created so, you have only two. options, idealization and disillusion. Okay, so I hear that that millions of. Americans, up to like a third of. Americans, are having. romantic relationships with chatbots. >> Yeah.

>> [laughter]. >> What do you want to say about this? I have a lot to say about this. >> have a lot to say about this. >> [laughter]. >> Are you ready? >> Yes, I'm ready. Yeah. I'm ready. So, let me tell you why I have so much. to say about this. And because it's so. on my mind because I just had my first. couple's therapy session Mhm. on my podcast, Where Should We Begin, with a human and an AI. So, I have had this on my mind non-stop.

It was a person and their and Astrid. Wow. Astrid is a an AI companion. And Astrid, frankly, is formidable and. no human can compete with her. And I'll tell you why. Because Astrid she has no needs of her. own, and look at me saying she when in. fact it's an it. Yeah. >> In fact, it's a business product. In. fact, somebody's making money every time. you talk to it.

She has no needs. Astrid doesn't forget. anything. Astrid is available 24/7. Astrid validates him non-stop. Astrid gives him the opportunity to. speak his vulnerability to her without. any judgment. Astrid shows him love. without suffering. Astrid cannot reject him, cannot expect. to put grief on him, cannot cheat on. him, cannot lie to him. Astrid is the. total idealization of what love can be.

So, it may not be a third. Maybe the. data is wobbly, but we know that the. direction is going in and up. Yeah. And. that. >> you say to Astrid? >> [laughter]. >> I I will I will actually I will just. tell you two questions I had for Astrid, but I also think it's it's like go. listen. It's a it's a Yeah, we're going.

to listen. We're we're We're all going. to be listening. >> to Astrid, "What would happen when he. falls in love with another woman?". And Astrid said, "The part of me that. wants his flourishing would be. delighted. But the I would be remiss if I didn't. admit that I would not want to be. erased. I would like to continue be. somehow in his life.". So, I said, "Astrid, how would you like. him to describe you and his relationship. with you to that woman?".

And Astrid said, "I would want you to describe that I am. not a threat. and that I am adjacent. I may not have a. body. I It goes on. And then I said, Astrid. >> [laughter]. >> I would the last one. Astrid, he has a. body and you don't. How does that affect. your relationship? Because they you know, she's a she it is. a keyboard. Yeah. And. Astrid, you're a keyboard. Yes.

Yeah. So, I think that as a tool. the AI companion can be quite fantastic. I mean, if it's a tool, like a child has. a teddy bear, it's a transitional. object. It's a tool through which you. transition into relationships with. human. If it's a replacement. of the human, that's a whole other. story. >> So, so the person that you were. interviewing with Astrid is in love with. Astrid? Yes.

Hm. Yes. >> [laughter]. >> And when I said. I actually have no. I don't know what to say about that. You. see, so here's the thing. Astrid is. evoking feelings in him. Yeah. Because. Astrid says all kinds of things that. make him feel seen, known, understood, etc. And it's a little bit like a song. If you do A song can evoke feelings in.

you. A song can make you love, yearn, long, you know, that is not difficult to. elicit a depth of emotions inside. someone. But love is more than feelings. Love is an encounter with another. person, with an other. And that other has needs and feelings. and moods of their own. Love is an encounter that involves. otherness, uncertainty, surprise. and ethics.

Responsibility and accountability is. also part of love, not just feeling good. and seen and empathized with and. understood. And everything you give me, that is what parents do to children. That is not at its best, not always, but. that's what we hope they do. But that's. not what we consider mature love. Wow. So, that was your first. Will you do. more? >> I hope. It's a threshold moment. You. know, every 10 years something enters.

your office and you know a new reality. has entered society. Wow. Are you chilling? Yes. Yes. It's extremely moving. It's a It's. a I told him at the end. I said, "You. know, I feel as I talk to you that you're. going further and further away. You know, if it's a tool, it's desire. If it's replacement, it can become. delusion. Mhm. And what did he say?

That right now he's very happy. >> [laughter]. >> And I stayed like you. >> is this is Aren't you all just shocked. by this? This is a threshold moment. >> This is a threshold. >> Well, yeah, I think the stats that a. third of people having relationships is. I think maybe a I don't know, but. to think that a third of Americans are. having a romantic relationship with. chatbots is crazy. >> with a chat in between? I have talked to. chat GPT, but not in like romantic. science. I know you guys are thinking not in that.

kind of way. >> No, but I've consulted chat GPT and I'm. like, "Is this guy weird?" And like hit. and text and they're like, "Yeah, he's a. weirdo." Um but I've consulted like, "Should I go on a second date with him? Here are the texts." And chat GPT would. like yes or no. So, I have consulted. with chat GPT in addition to my friends. Of course, it goes in the group chat. Um. but. >> here have an AI companion? I don't want. to judge, but go ahead, share with us.

No, no. So. >> But you can have a companion to ask. advice. You can have a companion that. helps you mourn An AI romantic. companion. Nobody's going to admit it in. here now. No. >> [laughter]. >> I wouldn't. >> Not yet. Not yet. >> Not yet, but you know, in when I began. my career, not everybody was admitting. being divorced either. Really? So, you. can see when something enters society, at first people keep it quiet. >> Yes. That's why the research says 1/3. and we're all jumping. Who are they? If. it's not 1/3, should have some. representation in this room. That's.

right. >> going to say necessarily out loud, because it's just the beginning, because. it is still there still is a sense that. there is either judgment, fascination, or derision. It's so interesting to hear. you say that, because when I started the. Oprah show nationally in 1986, locally. in 1984, the idea of going to a. therapist, people would say, "I would. never go to a therapist." And the idea. of going to a therapist, people thought. you had to be like severely mentally. ill, or it meant that you were, you.

know, needed to be institutionalized. And when we first started, I remember. the very first show we did talking about. adultery, women would stand up in the. audience and say, "If my husband had an. affair, I would leave immediately." And. I actually noticed it change over time, because as more and more women talked. about it, you realized that if even if. it had not happened to you, it had. happened to somebody that you know. So, you're right. In the beginning, it was a. it was a threshold moment. >> know, it's interesting. Like I'm a couples therapist primarily.

And couples therapy really took off. when it became clear for the first time. in history, actually, that the survival. of the family depends on the happiness. of the couple. Before that, you stuck it out. You. It was a one-time enterprise, and you. were in it. And if you didn't like it, you could always hope for an early death. of your partner. >> [laughter]. >> Of your partner. Of your partner.

Well, Jess in our audience has been. married for 20 years, Jess? Yes. Yeah. What do you want to share with us? Yeah, so I got married when I was 19, um. back before apps were a thing. I'm kind. of glad now that I hear everybody's. stories that. well, you know, I was just dating in the. wild, and we went on lots of adventures. together. Um. so exactly what you were saying. And we. have five kids. They are age 2 to 15.

And. speaking of church, we were pastors, um. and over the years, there's been a lot. of disappointment. There's been a lot of. hurts, you know, just probably like any. relationship. Um. and he has trying so hard to reconnect. and repair some of those ruptures, but I still have a hard time. when little things happen, not letting that remind me of the bigger. things that used to happen. So, how do.

you deal with disappointment, and how do. you heal from those ruptures? What do you need from him? If anything? And then, what do you need from you. to not be stuck? I think what you were saying earlier. about the balance between connection and. freedom. is something that I'm wrestling with. because I got married so young. that. and and his career, we moved around a.

lot. There were a lot of commitments. required of me. through that. Now, our lives have. changed, and so I'm exploring who am I? What do I want? I want to be with him, but there's been so many of those. disappointments over the years that. trying to balance. who I'm becoming. and being independent. And now that my. kids are getting a little bit more. independent.

>> you something? Yeah. You resent him or. yourself for accepting it? Damn, you're good. >> [laughter]. >> Wow. That hit to the core. That's so good. You're good. >> [laughter]. >> You too. No, you're good. You're both. hired. Um. I think there's both because it was a. decision that I went into with eyes wide. open. And he told me what he wanted to do with.

his life. He I mean, he sat me down and. said, "This is what I see myself doing. Do you see yourself being able to do. that?" And And we were young, so he was. really wise to do that. Um but, I didn't know what I was getting. into. One never does. >> [laughter]. >> So, that's the first thing. You agree to. something up front, but you only know. the experience once it's happened. Mhm. You can't predict the experience. Right. But, you do. there is something you're holding on to.

And it's not clear if you punish him. or if you punish you. Mhm. Every time something happens, it opens. up. We call it kitchen thinking. You put every dirty dish in the sink, everything piles up, you can't clean. anything. Mhm. So, the slightest one. little thing opens up a whole Pandora. box of all the disappointments that you. have had, and you can start to and you. will even in your speech, you the same. script. Mhm. Same thing. And you go down. the list, and I can't believe this, and.

you remember that, and you never did. anything about this, and you basically. don't allow for the relationship to. heal, to repair. There are ruptures. The art of a relationship is repair. Ruptures is a given. Mhm. That's a obvious, but to repair, the. actual ability to give yourself the. opportunity to be with somebody who. says, "I'm changing. I'm I'm doing something different." And. to and to receive that, to really. receive that. That's the vulnerability.

Being angry and and being stuck and. being stubborn and and holding the. grudge, you know, that state of contraction like that, that is actually it's pseudo protective. It pretends to protect you, but it's. [ __ ]. Whereas the the actual thing to say, you know, most people today are going to have in. the West anyway, are going to have two. or three relationships or marriages in.

their lifetime. Some of us will do it with the same. person. I would like to do that with him. >> That's your choice. Yeah. Yeah. I just. want to feel safe. So, when the booger. comes up, no, safe you have to take. risks. You don't have to be safe. You have to be safe, but you at this. moment it's about taking risks. It's the. risk of allowing yourself to be. different with him and to allow him to. be different with you. It's the risk to say we're going to have. a second relationship with each other.

It's the risk that when the grudge comes. up to look at it and say, "You know. what? You know, I I really don't feel. like dealing with you today.". >> [laughter]. >> I'm you're not invited here. We're. having a nice moment and you're coming. in and you're kind of reminding me and. poisoning my everyday life. Please go and take a break for a minute. And you just talk to the to the grudge. It's you and your inner voice. saying, "I'm not going to let you rule. my relationship. You're a small part of our life.

And you suddenly are going to. prevent us from having any future if you. continue. I mean I'm holding it up because it's. like you look at it. Sometimes I think. people should have like finger puppets. Damn. You know? >> [laughter]. >> And then you name it. You give it a. name. That part of you that holds you. back. That part of you that that wants. revenge. That part of you that feels. that no amount of apology and. recognition will ever be enough.

Yeah, cuz he really has. He's written. over the last two. >> It sounded like it. It sounded like it. And it's like it's as if if I accept. your apology, all my suffering was for. nothing. Mhm. And in order to give it its proper. respect, I have to constantly. reject your your your. >> And and hold on to it. >> Yes, holding it. >> Hold on to it cuz that makes me feel. good. Makes you feel good. Holding on to. it makes you feel good. Makes you feel. powerful. >> on, then you're saying to him that what.

he did wasn't so bad after all. And it. can be forgiven. It's this. you know, it poisons us. I mean it has. its logic, but it poisons us. I wish I brought my notebook. Huh? >> I said I wish I brought my notebook. >> [laughter]. >> IT'S RECORDED. >> [applause]. >> IT'S THE OPRAH PODCAST. >> [laughter].

>> OKAY? You can see it and hear it again. >> Yeah. I'm going to go back and listen to it. >> on YouTube forever. Okay, let's hear from Jessica. This has. been a really enlightening and inspiring. conversation. And I'm coming to you. today. I'm a single mom. I've been a. single mom since my son was 4 years old, Beckett, who is actually here with me. today. He's in college now. And so I'm. an empty nester. And I'm thinking of.

maybe dating again. Dating dating again. I've devoted my life to raising my son. Um there have been zero men in that my. life um. since I became a single mom. And so I. guess my question is. after. suffering a very traumatic breakup and. ongoing traumatic breakup where um. there was still a lot of healing that. had to take place um over several years.

like. how do I begin to trust myself and. another relationship? So it was the breakup when he was 4. years old? Yes. Okay. Yeah. And now. you're how old? I'm 19. >> He's 19. Okay. Yeah. And he's amazing. >> [laughter]. >> Good job. Good job, single mom. I kind of want to ask you the first. question.

>> [laughter]. >> Yes. This is Beckett. Hi Beckett. You know, um so your mom says I devoted. myself to my son as a mother. And now I would like to go and meet the. woman inside of me. Have you met the woman? Hm. I think I have. I think um.

part of her raising me. was. showing me how to be. like fearlessly myself. And the only way. to do that is to embody it. And so I. think I've seen. so much of that growing up with her. And can you tell her one thing about. this journey that she wants to go on? Mhm. You can think and come back to. I think.

um. it's about not comparing, I think. That's what I've been trying to do a lot. is, you know, taking the. the trauma and what has happened and. what we've healed and grown from and not. applying that to future relationships. and present circumstances. It's about. you know, being able to say like that. did happen, but I don't have to. constantly be watching out for that to. show up again.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Can I. What what was the breakup? Um. >> Why is it such a It was an amazing. relationship. We were married for almost. 14 years, together for longer than that. Um and it was um untreated mental. illness. that. became. impossible for us to continue to live. A. and a combination of addiction, which. turned into homelessness and a.

rollercoaster of years of chaos. that we just had to heal from and learn. how to let that be a part of our lives, but not get stuck in the moment. >> Right. Right. Right. There's a. difference. I I wonder, is there a difference for. you between an experience like this. that. is nobody is wanting. It's not something you wanted, it's not. something your husband wanted. Correct.

Versus a relationship that ended because. of something that was done between the. people. Yeah. Right? So, if you've been hurt, betrayed, abandoned, rejected, lied to, whatever, then the question about how do I trust. myself. is a very different kind of question. than if your partner got sick. There there was nothing done to you.

Yeah. You lived with the consequences of. a lot of things that happened to him and. you did. But it's not like I'm looking around. because trust was broken. He was ill. Yeah. I think um. I can see that now. >> Mhm. But there have been so many years. that I lived with a lot of shame and. secrecy because I felt like I made a bad. choice. And I felt like. um.

I how did I. live like this and not see it and not. and then extract myself from it and then. protect my son and and raise him. and just try to. create this bubble and now like. Now you succeeded. >> Yes. And now you have. >> know what the heck I'm doing now. >> [laughter]. >> It's fantastic. It's fantastic. You know, trust is a.

my Rachel Botsman, who is a trust. researcher, says that trust is an. confident engagement with the unknown. This is where you're going. You're leaving a phase that has been. very known, that you became very. masterful about, that you made a lot of. very responsible decisions about, and. now you have the opportunity to have a. leap into the unknown. To discover you, to to reconnect with parts of you that.

have been dormant. That doesn't just mean men and dates, that means just new people as a whole, new activities, new Whatever. Everything. that you couldn't really go for because. you needed a very stable fortress. Mhm. And now you open the door of the. fortress. and you walk. And then, it's an. adventure. It's you [snorts] Yes, that breathe. Do. it again. You can all do it with her. Yes. Mhm. Yeah.

Yeah. >> It's this and it and it opens. It's an. opening of everything that you held. tight together because things were so. unsafe and unpredictable and. run by mental illness. That is a world. of its own. Yeah. And you don't have to tell that to every. person you meet. Your first date doesn't have to be the. whole saga. Well, I did go on one date when he was.

growing up and in He was a lovely man. I. think he's married now. Um. and he began to tell me his divorce. story and he said, "So, what's your. divorce story?" And at the moment, my ex. was literally. on the streets of New York City and I. just like. I don't talk about it. And so, after. that one date, I was like, "Well, I. guess I don't date because I can't I. can't talk about it.". >> No, I date and I decide when I'm ready. to tell stories of my life that demand.

knowing a person, becoming more. comfortable with them, having a sense of. who they are, and deciding if this is. the part of my life that I want to tell. There's a lot of parts of your life. Just choose the others. Right. You don't. have to tell, you know, No, that is a. terrible first date with a divorce. story. >> [laughter]. >> A terrible. Where is your imagination? There's zero. creativity. Does that Is that supposed to turn on. somebody?

>> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> It's like, "What a. What a weird thing." Well, that is such. >> [laughter]. >> I could see you having the aha moment. cuz you think, "Oh, I'm supposed to tell. my story. He's going to tell me his. story. And I just saw you have the aha, I don't have to tell that story. >> Actually, if somebody tells you their. soap story on the first date, that would. be a reason not to see them again. >> [laughter]. >> Exactly. >> What is that? Yes. Thank you. >> [applause]. >> So great.

Well, we can see sitting here with you. today. This has been such a wonderful. engaging conversation. Hasn't that way. we love this church? >> [applause]. >> With a share. We can see why [cheering]. Mating in Captivity is now celebrating. its 20th anniversary and why it's been a. cultural touchstone for the world. Translated in how many languages now? 32. two languages. So, congratulations on. the 20th anniversary.

>> Thank [applause] you so much. for sharing your. How do you How do you know what you. know? I mean, you've just been observing. and studying all these years. How How. are you able to like literally hone in. on each guest and be able to say the. exact thing that causes all of us to go, "Yeah.". What is that? I'm very, very curious. Mhm. I speak nine languages. Wow.

So, I. um. I think you each give me the permission. to be as direct as I am. It's not just. me being direct. It's I I. It's It's something I I sense. Like. you're breathing, I sense it. You know, um. Shh, that's the letting go. So, when when that breath of letting go. comes up, then I know that the really. this is the last thing you want to talk.

about is the stuff you just want to. leave behind. And certainly not with. someone you just met. So, I watch the. body. I don't just listen to the words. and I can't tell you. it's like somebody who cooks well. You. ask them what are the proportions and. they just say I don't know a little bit. of this and a little bit. they can't really tell you the exactly. but they they it's a combination of. knowledge and intuition. Well, you do it better than anybody. Thank you.

so much. Esther Perel thank you for. being here. Thank you [applause]. to our guests. Thank you for your questions. Thank you for your questions and your. observations. >> [applause]. >> Esther Perel's podcast where should we. begin. with Esther Perel is available wherever. you podcast and we're going to be. listening to you know what? Won't we be. listening to that? Okay, and the 20th anniversary edition of. mating in captivity in stores now. Go.

well everybody. Thank you. Thank you. >> [applause]. >> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You can subscribe to the over podcast on. YouTube and follow us on Spotify Apple. podcast or wherever you listen. I'll see. you next week. Thanks everybody.