Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma

Hey there, and thanks to you for joining. me here on the podcast and for watching. on YouTube. Today, I'm welcoming Dr. Bruce [music] Perry. I've known Dr. Bruce Perry, a world-renowned child and. adolescent psychiatrist and. neuroscientist. [music]. I've known him now for 30 years and. more. I invited him on The Oprah Show. [music] more times than I can count. And over that time, we've had many, many, many opportunities to talk about. the impact of. [music]. sexual abuse or domestic violence or.

poverty or racism [music]. on development and how that impacts. people. I also asked Dr. Perry to implement his. work called the neurosequential model of. therapeutics to help my girl school in. South Africa become a trauma-informed. school. When you're regulated [music]. for me, my mind is open to learn. Dr. Perry has written half a dozen. books, including one he co-authored with. me called What Happened to You? Conversations on Trauma, Resilience, and.

Healing. [music]. I'm proud to say it's a number one New. York Times bestseller. Hi Oprah. Hi Dr. Perry. Dr. Perry and I are talking with viewers. [music] and listeners about our book. How do I forgive my parents for not. showing up [music] the way I needed them. to show up for me? Who say reading it opened up a new way. of healing from their trauma. [music]. Your work, this book, has had such a profound impact on my. life personally and professionally. [music] So, thank you. It's a simple question that resonates.

profoundly for so many of us. What. happened to you? I have to say that question changed. everything. I think it was 2018. I was. interviewing Bruce Perry for. an episode of 60 Minutes on CBS. Yeah, you were there even, Keith, right? Keith, my favorite DP I've had for. years. We were talking about. Your first thought is. children, and you made a comment. You. said, you know, all these schools where. they have the kids and those kids get.

dismissed and they get um. suspended from school and the teachers. label them as bad and they say this is a. bad kid, this is a bad kid. What they. really should be saying not is what's. wrong with this kid, but what happened. to the this child.". Yeah. That was a. Bong bong bong bong bong. That was one. of the biggest moments for me. It. changed the way I run my school. It has changed the results of what's. happened at my school. It changed the. way I see people, the way I see myself,

the way I operate in the world and. business. And you said that when a. person or child is actually behaving in. a certain way, that that's the question, not what's. wrong with you, but more important, what's happened to. How did you know this? How did you come. to this? Well, I I've been studying the development of. people forever, you know, for 40 years. And. Development of the brain in particular. and and of and of behavior and of the.

way people kind of grow and change and. think and move and all that kind of. stuff. And so I had this this. bias. that was focused on the history of a. person. Yes. Which is really kind of the story of the. person. And to understand where somebody. was right now and why they were acting a. certain way, you really needed to know. their story. And. That's the bottom line. That's the bottom line. And that's I. think it's the bottom line with with. anybody everything.

You want to understand history? Understand the story of these people. Understand the story of the economics. Understand the story of an individual's. personal life. your boss is an. Understand their story. Understand their story. Yeah. And one of the things that's. really interesting about that. your boss is an means that they. have a story. Exactly. Of some kind of trauma or being rejected. or not feeling not feeling not feeling. whole themselves cuz the only people. that make people feel like they are.

minimal are people who feel minimal. themselves. Exactly. You absolutely can't do it if you're a. whole person. a great quote by Abraham Lincoln. who had there's a legislator he didn't. like. Yes. And he said, "I don't like that man. I. must get to know him.". Wow. Isn't that amazing, right? Yeah. Well, that's why it was Abraham. Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln understood that if I. knew his story, I would have a better understanding. about why I don't like him and why he's. unlikable.

And I think the thing we see this with. kids, one of the things that's true is that so. many of these kids that drive educators. kind of batty, Yeah. when they learn about them, it's. actually frequently heartbreaking. Yeah. They are the most interesting kid. in the class. And if you are a teacher. or an educator who's listening or. watching us right now, or you are in the involved in the. criminal justice system, or you are in. any way having to deal with people who.

come from dysfunctional backgrounds, this is this book is absolutely. essential. I know one of the things that. has been the most rewarding for me. I. was working with. uh women at the California. uh Women's Institute and. they read the book as a book club. assignment. And the one of the most and then wrote. me uh letters and that they all put in a. book. And one of the most rewarding. things was to understand that for so.

many women who've been incarcerated for. years, they had never understood. They actually. said to me, "All this time I thought I. was just a bad person.". I thought I had a demon. I never asked. the question, "What happened to me?" I. was always asking, "What was wrong with. me. So, I think the fact that we did. this book together has really, you know, not just sold a million copies, but has. affected a million lives. I I agree. I literally every day I get.

emails and feedback from people about. the impact the book has had on the way. they understand themselves and then the. way they do their work. One of the most important takeaways that. I got from the book, depending on what. age you are when you experience the. trauma, you handle it differently and it. manifests in your brain differently. Exactly. And this is something that the. field generally is doing more research. on and learning a lot more. But the the universal principle. Or the long-term effect on a 5-year-old. is going to be very different than the. long-term effect on a 9-year-old.

Exactly. And and what we're learning is. that the earlier in life that you have. these traumatic events, the more enduring the the fundamental. changes can be in these core stress. response systems that are involved in. everything that we do. And you know, it's it's it's kind of. counterintuitive for a lot of people. because people generally think, "Oh, the. baby doesn't understand what's going on. or the 2-year-old doesn't understand. what's going on. Uh they'll be fine.".

And. It's actually the opposite. exactly. One of the biggest biggest biggest. takeaways for me, you all, when I was. working with Dr. Bruce Perry on this. book, is learning, and I'd heard it for. years. You'd been on my show. I'd heard. the information. I just hadn't received. it, but I heard it differently. Yeah. after building a school and having a lot. of kids who had come there traumatized. Yeah. Um but to hear from you that from age. zero to two years old, zero to two years. old, is the time when the most damage.

can take place to the developing of the. brain. So, what I learned from you and. this book, what happened to you, if you. are raised in an environment where your. needs do not get met at a very early. early age. Right. Zero to two, the synapses in your brain. do not form the way other people's do. and you end up with long-term. other issues. Exactly. And And And again, these are.

not irreversible issues, but they're. significantly challenging issues. And. the the the the growth of the brain is. so rapid early in life and the stress. and trauma of an experience are mediated. through these really important. foundational networks that go everywhere. in your brain and out into your body. And when their functioning is abnormal, when their functioning is impacted. through these stressful and traumatic. experiences, they then send this cascade. of sort of abnormal signals.

out to everywhere in the developing. brain and everywhere in your body. That's why it's so important for every. human being to understand what happened. to you. because what happened to you when you. were little, even before you were able. to process it, is what. uh dictates. your behavior and your decisions, your. choices, the way your brain operates in. later life. And that is true for every.

person. That's why that's the most. important question you can ask, particularly when things are not going. the way that you want. Right. Is not what's wrong with him? Yeah. It's I wonder what happened to him. Exactly. And this is what everybody needs to. know, particularly about younger younger. children. And that's why the zero to two. years old is so important is that even. though those children don't understand. language, they understand energy and. vibration. Absolutely. are responding to.

Absolutely. tone, intonation, the noise around them. That's why. sometimes you go to. touch a baby and they're like. Oh, exactly. responding to your to you to your. energy. they can look at sleeping infants and if. parents are arguing in a different room, there's a physiological change in the. baby's. internal responses. Really? They literally are perceiving the fight. even though they're asleep and the.

parents are in a different room. Your. brain is continually absorbing, as you. say, the environment, the atmosphere. around you. And the reason why it is so crucial 0 to. 2, 0 to 6, those early years, is because. that's when we have the greatest growth. in in in in our learning ability, right? Exactly. It's a little bit like the. construction of a skyscraper that that. 80% of the effort goes into the. superstructure and the wiring and the. plumbing and everything else. And all of. that's done. The foundational stuff is. done.

And that's And now you're 3 years old. and you haven't put in carpeting and you. haven't selected what's going to go on. the walls, but the the foundational. capabilities of that building are. in place. And so I can't emphasize enough, if you. didn't get what you needed, and it. doesn't mean that you were not in a. loving environment because I've over the. years interviewed multiple people. from the same family. Somebody felt. that, you know, the ex- That's why you.

end up arguing with your sisters and. brothers about what went on because. they're saying, "Well, Mom and Dad were. this." And then you go, "But that wasn't. my experience." And if you didn't get. what you needed, that's all that. matters. Absolutely. It's all that matters. Absolutely. So I think a lot of people may think, "Well, it's too late for me. I'll live. with this pain for the rest of my life.". What do you want people to hear and. understand about healing from their own. trauma and what resilience actually. means? So I. the first thing I want to do help people.

appreciate is that they should be. hopeful. The beauty of the human brain. is that it's malleable, it's changeable. The challenge, however, is that in order. to get sufficient change, you have to. have multiple doses of the right kind of. experience. And the right kinds of experiences are. almost always relationally mediated. So, if you have attentive, attuned, loving. people in your life,

and that can be family and. Or not be family. and community or not be family. Just. people around you who are present and. attentive and attuned, you have this. healing matrix, this healing environment. where you can essentially have the. reparative experiences that will lead to. health. This is what I want people to know. because so many people feel. as I did, that you didn't get what you. needed from a particular parent or from. your. you know, loved ones who were supposed.

to love you. You didn't get loved the. way you needed to be loved. Right. But I had asked you earlier in one of. these uh conversations, I don't know why. I'm not stone crazy, and you said. It's because there there were people in. your life who were present and helpful. and and loved you. could be a teacher, that could be a. counselor, that could be somebody in. Sunday school, that can be yes. All these things create an environment. where you have opportunities for all.

kinds of healing, social healing, cognitive healing, motor healing. It but. you need this environment. So, I'm really, really so. um. moved today because we heard from a lot. of you who have read the book, and some. of you are joining this conversation. Annie, hi there. You're zooming in from. Minnesota. Oh, lovely home. Hey. Very nice. Hi Oprah. Hi Dr. Perry. Thanks for. having me. Can you share share how you were.

impacted by what happened to you. in your childhood? Yeah, my childhood was it felt very. rough to me. Um, there was a lot of neglect and. emotional abuse. Um, and I just never felt. loved, safe, protected, um, specifically. by my parents. And. it's it's made for some real struggles. in my life.

And I heard that after reading the book. you see yourself differently. I love to. hear that and I know Bruce does too. So, how so? What happened? I I always felt so flawed. Like. something was wrong with me. Hm. Um, like I wasn't lovable. And after reading the book, I realized. the way my parents showed up for me. really had nothing to do with me. It had.

to do with their own difficult. upbringings, um, childhood, you know, challenges in their own lives and that's. how they showed up for me. So, it was. just a relief. for me in reading this book to. understand that there's nothing wrong. with me. I'm not unlovable. I've done a lot of work to heal from my. childhood trauma. My question is, how do I forgive my.

parents for not showing up the way I. needed them to show up for me. I feel. like that's the one place where I'm just. still kind of stuck in my healing. Well, first of all, it's. um. the issue of forgiveness is one of the. hardest challenges that we as human. beings have. In fact, it's interesting I don't want. to get religious here, but the Lord's. Prayer. is. not many words, but there's a whole line.

about forgiveness. And of all of the things you could bring. into that a foundational prayer, you know, Forgive us our trespasses. Is that what. you. that's so elevated. against us. It's elevated because that's. such a challenging thing to do. So, I Here's what I would just say is it. forgiveness is a process. It's not a. switch. You know, you don't just go, "I'm going to forgive you." and then. it's done. It's a process and.

I think as you grow and you heal and you. learn more about the stories of your. parents, you'll begin to develop some more. understanding of. the reality that they probably were not. intentionally trying to be as bad as it. felt. And and little by little in tiny little. bits of forgiveness, it it'll come. But. it you know, it can take a whole. lifetime. I love what you said about it's it's not.

it's not a switch you're going to turn. on. If I may may share this, the best. definition I ever heard of forgiveness, I can't remember who did it so many. years ago on the show, was giving up the. hope. that the past. could be. any different. So, giving up the hope that the past. could be any different is a decision you. have to make.

You have to decide that I now accept. that what happened happened as it. happened. And I'm going to give up hoping that my. parents were. could have been, should have been. anything other than what they were. and. I am now willing to move forward. It. doesn't mean that you excuse it, you. condone it, but you accept that you are not going to. continually hope that it could have been.

different because hoping that it could. have been different leaves you in the. space where you're going to always be. stuck, and you never get to move. forward. You are as resilient, you are. as strong, you are as caring for others. You have the compassion that you have. because of all the things that you did. not get from them that you had to find a. way to make okay for yourself. So, give. up the hope for them, and also what what. Bruce said, also understanding.

what happened to them. You know, watching you makes me want to cry, but I. remember I remember. having to I was being asked to come to. speak about my mother at a church, and. she was, you know, a very not religious. It was important for her to be seen as. religious in the community. And I had become Oprah Winfrey, and everybody knew she was my mother,

and I'd been asked to come to church. to. give all these accolades about my. mother. And I couldn't think of one thing. I was. listening to other people tell stories. of their mother. This girl told the story of how her. mother would make lunch, especially in. the rain. She would pack it in a special. lunch box, and she would put their. galoshes, with those little yellow. boots, at the front door, and then she'd. be home to take them off. And I was.

like, "Oh my god, I I don't have one. memory. I don't have one single thing.". And so, when it came time for me to speak, I. thought, "Well, what do I actually have. to be grateful for? She didn't abort me. Mhm. She did the best that she knew. The best that she knew was not enough. to feed what I needed. Was not enough to. make me feel whole. Was not enough to.

make me feel valued or seen or important. to her. It was not. But it was the best. that she could do. And I gave up the hope that it could. have been anything other than what she. had. And that's where you have to get to. Thank you. That's really helpful. Very powerful. Thank you. Thank you, Annie. Thank you. for reading the book and I'm so glad you. know that it was that it was meaningful.

for you. And and be patient with your process, right? Just be patient with yourself. a switch. It's going to take time. Thank you, both. Thank you. Thank you. Alexis is joining. us from Vermont. Hi, Alexis. I heard you. read the book and that it was a. validation for you. Yes. Hi, Oprah. Hi, Dr. Perry. Thank you. so much for having me. Thank you. Yeah, a little bit about my story is. both of my parents struggled with. addiction and unfortunately that landed.

myself and my brother. in the foster system and. it was a cruel home. It wasn't a place. where they were nurturing or caring for. either one of us. Often we would get punished with food. and when we did get fed, we'd get fed. squash and that would be it. And that. really created a lot of instability, not. feeling safe, you know, abandonment from my parents'. side, abandonment from people that were. supposed to protect and care for me.

Yeah, and that just really kind of took. off when we did get to go back home with. our mom. Being in Vermont, it is predominantly. white. So, I was, you know, the only. black girl. in my town, one of four, and I remember. just being bullied in school, which. further validated that I wasn't worthy. and I wasn't lovable. Um and I quickly. learned how to just blend into the. background and become a people pleaser. Yeah. And just care for. other people, um you know, without.

asking for anything. So, I heard my reading the book you were. better to able to understand a lot of. your triggers, right? How did that show. up for you? Yeah. Well, I first I I realized that it. wasn't my fault. Um you know, I think. from being so young, uh I didn't really realize that my. environments and circumstances had. nothing to do with me. It had everything. to do with external. um parties. And so, for me, it was.

really understanding when I was in. different environments how my body was. physically reacting to things. Um you. know, I had really heightened anxiety. all of the time. I had panic attacks. Um. you know, I've had over 10 surgeries, and. most of the time they were always. undiagnosed, un- unknown reasons as to. why these things were physically. manifesting in my body. Um. and I later found out, one partly. because of this book, which was the. beautiful part of being in therapy and. using this book was that I got to.

understand the why behind most of it. versus just kind of working through what. I experienced. So, I thought that was a. really um beautiful way to to kind of. tie things together and really. understand what was going on with within. me. the things I talked about in this book, I think, yeah, I think I talked about in. this book, is that I came to the. realization, too, cuz I too was a major. people pleaser. And I think people who suffer from. trauma, particularly if you there's been. physical abuse in your life,

uh. what I realize is is that every. confrontation, even as an adult running a company, I. suddenly realize that, oh, I think every. confrontation I'm going to get a. whipping. Mhm. I think there's a whipping at the end of. it. I think somebody's my, you know, it's my grandmother's going to come in. and she's going to take that switch and. I'm going to get a whipping. I'm going. to get chastised. I'm going to get. punished. for. speaking up or saying whatever's. important to me. If I don't do the thing.

that pleases the other person, I'm going. to I'm going to get punished. That was a. big realization for me. I think one of the things that you. shared here that's so important. uh, that I just want to re-emphasize. for people who are, for those of you who. are watching or listening to us, is that. you said, I realized it wasn't my fault. Mhm. And I think that is the thing that what. happened to you has done for so many. people. It's freed them to first of all.

understand it's actually the science of. my brain. and the circumstances that I was in and. it wasn't [clears throat] my fault. The other part of what you are sharing. that's so important. and this is becoming a huge part of a. revolution in medicine is the. recognition that these experiences. influence. the rest of your body. Not not just the. mental health aspects, but your whole. body. You know, your how your heart.

functions, how your GI system functions, how you metabolize food. You know, it's. it's the whole range of functions that. your body helps us. kind of carry out so we can live. They're all impacted by developmental. trauma. And um, so I I think that that's. a really important part of what you're. sharing for other people out there to. hear that. you know, it's if you have developmental. trauma, if you have traumatic. experiences, it's not at all abnormal to.

have headaches and to have GI problems. why that other book that's also very. popular, Your Body Keeps the Score. keeps the score. You're saying that your. body your body doesn't lose anything. Yeah, it just it's this is part of the. the the malleable, the changeable part. of the human body is it is always trying. to be responsive to the environmental. circumstances. And when you're under. stress and duress, it's telling parts of. your body to change in ways that are. theoretically adaptive in the moment,

but over the long term, they're. maladaptive because it wears out your. system and it makes you much more. vulnerable to whatever your genetic. vulnerability. you're under constant stress and. anxiety, that is being. uh internalized in your body in your. health in a way that you don't see now, but will be manifested later. Absolutely. Show up. Your question for Dr. Perry. How do we rebuild trust within ourselves. and others after we've really lived a. lifetime of feeling dismissed, ignored,

and and being harmed? You know, the the beautiful thing about. healing from trauma and therapeutic. positive change is that it's not about. going back and undoing. It's about building new things. And so, you have an opportunity. in your life right now to have positive, trusting, relational interactions with. the people around you. And the more you.

build on those relationships, the more. you will ultimately get to the point. where. you will grow a capacity to trust. And this is a thing that I have learned. for myself, Alexis, just share with you. You don't have to worry about trusting. other people. if you have done the work to trust. yourself. Yeah. Mhm. So, you can trust that if somebody. isn't providing you with. what you need or that the moment a level.

of toxicity or them shaming or judging. or in any way being disrespectful to you. in any way. shows up you trust yourself enough to. get yourself out of that. Right. Exactly. And we all kind of have. to do this every day in every aspect of. our lives. Who do we really share a lot. with and if they're not going to be. trustworthy, it's like, well, that's. whatever. That's them. That's right. it done. So, you don't go spilling your whole. life to somebody and telling, you know,

you don't open your heart to people that. you don't know that they are worthy. Exactly. the heart space for you. Exactly. That's that's and that's the work you're. doing on yourself. That's not about. them. That's about you. Oh, beautifully said. You got that. And you got absolutely. You can get. there. You got you you you got that. Thank you, Alexis. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. So, Dr. Perry told us about United. States District Judge Esther Salas who.

is. now joining us from her chambers. Hello. These are your chambers? They are. In New Jersey. Uh nearly 5 years ago. uh I remember reading that story. That. was a horrible story. uh that you endured the most. unimaginable. Will you share what. happened, Judge? Well, thank you, Ms. Winfrey and Dr. Perry for letting me join this. discussion. Um your work, this book.

has had such a profound impact on my. life personally and professionally. So, thank you. Um it was, you know, the summer of 2020, a global pandemic. Our family, like the. that all over this nation and beyond. were, you know, observing a quarantine. that had been called by a Governor. Murphy in March of 2020 and our son. Daniel at 19 at the time, um you know, he did such a great job, you know, really concerned about us, but.

he was lonely and he finally, you know, worked on us long enough to say, you. know, for his birthday, which was July. 13th, "Can I have a few friends over?". And so we thought about it, my husband. Mark and I thought about it. And uh. we decided to let him have a few friends. over and so on Friday, July 17th, uh as Daniel's friends from Catholic. University of America started coming. over. and ringing the bell, I had no. clue that there was a disgruntled lawyer.

who. a self-proclaimed anti-feminist. um who had hate in his heart. had a plan to assassinate me. And he was on our block that night. watching these kids come to our house. And so that night they slept over, the. next day I made them breakfast. And um I decided to walk our two dogs to. give Daniel a little privacy, walk our. two dogs down the block and as I was.

walking, I sensed the car. was like out of place and I remember. looking at the driver and he looked at. me. and for a moment we locked eyes and then. he looked away. And I had no clue what this man had in. store for us. And so that that day he watched us, our every move, my son went to the beach. with his the remaining of the friends. that had stayed. Um he saw me packing a cooler and.

umbrellas and. and that night Daniel came back from the. beach with his three friends, we had. dinner and then on Sunday when Daniel's. friends, the last of the friends of let. had left. Mark knew and I knew he was so. tired. He couldn't get any rest. So we. said, "You know what? You don't have to. do your usher duties. We're going to go to church and when we. come back, um. and we'll clean up.". So we came back and we all were cleaning. up and Daniel and I. ended up in the basement and we were. talking about all his concerns cuz one.

of his friends didn't show and you know, when Daniel was in his human form, um. Ms. Winfrey, his dad was his buddy, but. I was his confidant. And so we were talking this beautiful. deep conversation and Mark ran down to. the basement steps where we were at and. he said, "Dad, Mom and I are talking.". And so that was Mark's cue to get her. water and go and Daniel was swinging a. Wiffle ball bat.

And he turned around and he said to me, "Mom, keep talking to me. I love talking. to you.". And like on cue, the doorbell rang and. Daniel's face changed from serene and. calm to concerned and alarmed and he. went, "Who's that?". And before I could tell him, you know, "Don't go upstairs. Daddy's got it.". He just bolted up those stairs and I'm. cleaning up and the next thing I hear is.

like. mini bombs going off like. and I scream, "What is happening?". And I run up those basement stairs and I. turn to the left where the foyer is. and there is my only child. lying perpendicular to the door, holding. his chest. and Mark is crawling on his hands and. knees. trying to just get the look, like a look. at the license plate or something of of.

the man that just rocked our world, you. know? And I remember dropping to my knees and. and pulling the shirt up and seeing the. bullet hole in Daniel's chest. And then Mark crawled back. And we were flanking him in our foyer. And um. and we watched him. our beautiful baby boy fade away. Your only son? That's what happened to us.

Wow. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Thank you. I'm so sorry. That is a devastating loss. Uh and we. all thank you for sharing. uh Daniel's story with us. So, tell us how you then discovered the. book and how this book impacted you. Well, I you know, I'm a lawyer and I I.

just started researching grief and and. and I you know, and I have to say it, I'm a self-proclaimed. super soul junkie. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I um I was just eating it all up, you. know, eating it all up and and and uh. and one of my friends mentioned that you. had come out with a book and and I you. know, I I just wanted I had to read it. I had to figure out what was going on in. my head and. Mhm. what was going on in Mark's head because.

he saw Daniel shot and then he saw that. gun pointed at him and Mark was shot. three times. It hit five different parts. of his body. So, we were experiencing. trauma from different places. Yeah. And I had to understand and thankfully, the way that you wrote this book, um the. way that you know, you and Dr. Perry are. able to story tell and share. vulnerability and it was just so easy.

for me to understand and relate to. that I began to understand the concepts. of regulation. and and dysregulation and to understand. that a dysregulated person can't talk to. a dysregulated dysregulated person. And. so it it it really. Nobody can. saved my marriage. Um. and we still, by the way, I mean, that's. common lingo, you know, I'll say, "Mark, I'm dysregulated right now.". [laughter].

I need to go for a walk. Oh. Uh I need I need that rhythm. I heard that the book also, Judge Salas, shifted the way you see the men and. women who come into your courtroom. Tell. us about that. Absolutely. I mean, you know, it started. with obviously me understanding and you. even say in the author's note, this book. is for anyone who wants to better. understand themselves. Yes. But I began to realize that the men and. women that were coming before me, you.

know, we're dealing with a power. differential, which you explain and Dr. Perry explains beautifully in the book. And that they are probably dysregulated. from the moment they walk into the. courtroom, you know? Yes. And so I began, you know, trying to. understand how do I even out that power. dis you know, that power differential. And I began to try to change maybe this. voice, which is pretty loud, but the. tone of my voice and and then of course, the story of Joseph in the book about,

you know, just short bursts of. interactions that are positive. Yes. And so I now have status conferences. with some of the individuals that come. before me and it's not as a judge, what. have you done? It's more like, what can. we do? What can we do to help you? And. by the. you know, I have to thank you both. because I, you know, I often ask. individuals who are under supervision to. read this book, to read this book and. come back and talk to me about, you.

know, what they felt and what they what. they understood. Explain dysregulation and regulation. that the judge is talking about. So, regulation and dysregulation have to. do with. that those stress response systems in. our body that when you're regulated or. what let's say we dysregulation is when. you get out of balance. So, you're. hungry, thirsty, cold, scared. You get angry. angry, you get dysregulated and that and. those those systems that kind of go. everywhere in your body. that are part of the backbone of the.

stress response, they get activated. So, it changes the way you think, it changes. the way you perceive, you know, the the. present moment, it changes the way your. heart works and your gut works and so. you're dysregulated. But, you can get. back in balance by. eating something, by by moving in. pattern repetitive rhythm. Yes. You know, all kinds of things can make. you regulated. So, the the key to optimal brain functioning. is to have a regulated brain.

and that comes from feeling safe and. respected and that you belong. with the people around you. Yeah, one of the things that Judge Salas. said was that she says to to Mark, her. husband, is I'm don't talk to me, I'm. dysregulated right now. One of the. things that we point that you make in. the book is and I know many of you who. are listening or watching us right now, you've been in an experience where. you're in an argument and you're like, you're not hearing me.

And people who are dysregulated actually. aren't hearing you because they're in a. different part of their brain and they. can no longer hear, right? Exactly. Exactly. Or if they do hear. you, they distort it so that it's more. negative. Yes. Or or so if you say something neutral, they go, that's don't be so negative. And you're. like, that wasn't negative. You should not speak to a person who's. dysregulated. Exactly. Well, thank you, Judge Salas, for. sharing that. Thank you so much for the work that you.

both continue to do, and I am just so. grateful for the opportunity to be able. to say to you both personally, and and just from the bottom of my. heart, I thank you for all the work that. you continue to do. You make a. difference. You make a difference in. everybody's life and and uh and greatly. appreciate. your work. Thank you for that. Thank you, Esther. It's an honor to know that this book. helped you to heal in any way and that. you also have used it to expose other. people to better understand themselves.

Thank you so much. Thank you for that. So, this year I taped an episode of my. book club with. Eckhart Tolle around his book A New. Earth, and a man named David was in our. audience, and he shared with me that. before he was born, before he was born, his parents had lost a child. And so, while he was in his mother's womb, his mother was still grieving for that.

child. Can you believe that? For that. death. Yeah. And that for his whole life, he felt. that there was a shadow over him, like. he was somehow a replacement. Now, I. find that so interesting cuz I'm. wondering, you know, we're talking about. zero to two years old. So, when you're. in the womb forming and you're you come. into the world with your mother grieving. and in sorrow, does that get transferred transferred to.

you? Absolutely. And and in fact, that most. people don't think about this, but the majority of growth in the brain. takes place in utero. Almost the vast majority of neurons that. you have in your brain right now, of. nerve cells, were present when you were born. So, lots of really important things happen. in utero that can be influenced by the. mother's. experiences.

State of mind. State of mind, sadness, stress, nutrition, all kinds of things make huge. impact on the developing brain. Oh, David's joining us. David, do you. hear that? I I do hear him. Yeah. Is Isn't that fascinating? You know, it's it's um it's nice to hear. that everything I thought is true. Yeah, quite honest. Yeah, actually, it's very validating, isn't it? To to say all these years I.

have felt that, I have sensed that, and. I'm not crazy. That was real. That was. real, right? Thanks for being here with. us again. Thank you. How did you feel. after reading because what happened is. after I. met David uh in New York, I sent him our. book. And how did you feel after reading. this book? Did it help you at all? Oh my gosh, I you know, the very first thought I had is it made. me have a greater appreciation for the.

adult I've become, and it made me. think back to, you know, the very little. David and how he made it through this. time that was complicated and layered. and, you know, so complex for everyone. in my family. And. I don't remember the exact moment I knew. about my brother. He was always there in.

my home and in my life. But I do remember. from the earliest age becoming a. caregiver and becoming worried. You. know, like you said you were a pleaser. because of things that happened to you. I immediately. began to worry about are they okay? You. know, is mom okay? Dad okay? What can I. do? And it. for a long time it made me. less of my own person.

Yeah. Cuz your own person was always about. making sure they were okay. Yeah. I didn't want any more pain. for anyone in my life. Yeah. And. you know, I I I. burden for a little child. That's a heavy burden for a little. child. You're right. Yeah. You know, and it it's it's. what you felt is actually. very predictable for a young child who. senses that something's wrong. in the household, right? Even with. without sort of explicit articulation,

you would sense it and you did, right? You sensed something's. not right. And as you maybe learned. about your your brother's death or your. that. helped crystallize maybe and make some. sense out of what you were experiencing. Right. I don't remember the age of when I knew. who he was, but he was always there. They didn't. hide. this and you know, as far as I'm. concerned, like I have a brother.

who happened to die before I was born. How old was he, if I may ask, when when. he passed away? was around 4 years old. Okay. So, that's brutal. That's brutal. for the family and then you and then. your mom got pregnant with you and. So, he died in that grief. He died in March of 1986 and I was born. in February of '87. Oh, wow. Okay. Woah. And I will say, I just you know, no matter how much love they gave and.

how protective they were and how much. they wanted to make sure we all had. you know, the best life. Nothing changed the thing in my mind. that. none of it mattered. It was always in. the back of my head like, "What am I. doing here? Who am I?". Mhm. That you were the replacement. Yeah. That you were the replacement. I hear. the story that I told um in uh.

What Happened to You? about my. grandmother and me not being able to. sleep resonated with you. I tell the. story in the book about me not being. able to sleep after my grandmother was. confronted, attacked in the bed by my. grandfather who slept in another bedroom. and that after that night, I remember. forevermore, she would put cans up. against the door, the chair underneath. the doorknob and. I slept in fear. And it wasn't until.

many, many, many, many years later that. I realized, "Oh, that's why I'm so. uncomfortable in my own home at night or. going to a hotel, always, you know, carrying the energy of that with me all. those years." And I had to be like under. 5 years old when that happened. I. remember when that happened. How did. that resonate with you? You know, the part that resonated was is. that it was the fact that it didn't. directly happen to you, that spirit. You.

witnessed it, you felt it. Yeah. But you know, your grandfather, the. actions taken weren't directly to you. Right. And. I wasn't physically here when the death. happened, but I felt it and it changed. you know, I again, it made me worry. so much. About. Are they okay? I don't want to cause trouble. I want to. make sure everyone in my family is.

happy and. I don't want to take up. too much space. Mhm. Mhm. So, you you know, one of the interesting. things about this is that. we're talking about early formation of. memory. And when you are very very very. very young, these lower parts of the. brain are organizing and creating. memories. But that part of the brain can't tell. time. So, what happens is as you get older. and you now that you're your age, you.

know that there is a timeline where you. think back and I my this is when this. happened, this is when that happened, this is when that happened. But all kinds of things in the world. that you experience right now are going. to activate a memory in a part of the. brain that can't tell whether or not. it's present or past. So, healing for you is going to be not. necessarily about um recognizing that.

this is the this is what happened and I. can go through this kind of intellectual. exercise to go, oh, that makes sense. Healing for you has to be influencing. these lower parts of the brain. that are in that really carry that. original memory, which means. dance, music, movement, all kinds of. things. And I I would suspect that you. find comfort in some of those things. that are.

sort of rhythmic. Rhythmic. pattern, repetitive things, whether it's. riding a bike or swimming or running or. walking or doing music or some other. arts-based form of regulation and. expression. Oh, absolutely. I mean, music is. on, you know, every day. What I I it's. hard for me to have silence, especially. You know, and and it keeps me centered. and motivated and. Do you have a question for Dr. Perry, though? I do. I mean. So, towards the very end of the book, uh.

and I just wanted to read this because. it stood out, you know, Oprah, you say, "And the lesson is, no matter what has. happened, you get a chance to rewrite. the script." And Dr. Perry, you respond, "Exactly. It is really never too late. Healing is possible. The key is knowing where to start the. process.". I read that and it immediately was like. what? Because I have a hard time, and I wonder. what you say to someone who questions.

all of this work, who questions, you. know, it's still hard for me to believe that I. can rewrite the script or heal. And. all the work I've done, I know I'm. a lot better. than I was back then. But, there's still a little part of me. that says, "But, Well, that part of you is really, really. deep, deep, deep, deep in in the lower.

parts of your brain that originate and. were organizing in utero. So, the key to changing the biology of. the brain. is a a principle we call specificity, which is basically the networks that you. want to change, you have to activate. So, you can't learn to play piano by. just watching a video about playing the. piano or by listening to music. You have. to actually move your fingers on a piano. key. And so, what happened to you started in utero.

Which means that you need to do things. that are going to be. intrauterine style. experiences. Patterned, repetitive, rhythmic. activity. In the. In utero, your brain is developing it. the stress response systems in your. brain are developing. [laughter]. continuous rhythmic exposure from.

maternal heart rate. And so, if you want. to have doses of healing and positive. growth in these lowest, deepest parts of. the brain, keep doing intentionally. and over with a pattern. pattern repetitive rhythmic things. And there are ways to make change. So, to you. in these lowest parts of the brain, middle parts of the brain, and top parts.

of the brain. And you've been doing top. parts of the brain, right? You know, you're probably have talking with people. and. Yeah. Yeah. you're learning about it, but ultimately. so interesting that top part of the. brain isn't what's going to really heal. you. You got to get down to the very. root of what that thing is. Exactly. Yeah. What that thing is. Thank you so much. Always a pleasure to. see you. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. I yes, thank you. I thank you. I'm so. humbled. to be here. Uh well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Perry, once we become aware of our. trauma. and how that trauma is showing up in our. lives, how do we. break the self-destructive. patterns? I think this book, may I say, helps a lot because you understand that. oh, that's why. he does that, she does that, I do that. That's That's why. Helps you recognize. it. But now that you recognize it,

What do you do? What do you do? Yeah. So, kind of going back to what I brought up. a couple of different times, really one. of the things that you have to always. remember is that the brain is capable of. change. Yeah. And. the kind of change you. is going to dep- require specific kinds. of repetitive experiences. You can turn that trauma into wisdom. You can You can actually You can go. through all kinds of relational.

experiences. You can go through sensory. experiences. You can go through sort of. cognitive intellectual experiences, and. they'll all lead to growth. But the key to change, honestly, is. that you have a healing environment. that's filled with people. who see you, who make you feel that you belong. Because what they allow you then to do.

is that when you are. in need of a. regulatory interaction where somebody. just is present, you can do that. When you're in need of somebody who is. going to do something where you are. needing some guidance, intellectual. guidance, you have somebody who can do that. It's. like having this big, beautiful, incredible extended family with people. that are good at horseplay, people that.

are good at telling stories, people that. are good at jokes, people that are good. at teaching you how to do a fire, Mhm. and you use them in your life at the. time you need them in the dose that you. need them. In In other words, you don't just want to have one person. responsible for. every single thing that you're learning. You know, you don't just You know, the. the village is filled with an elder. who's really good at telling stories, but he's not any good at teaching you. how to knit. And over here, the person.

who can teach you how to knit is. different than the person who's going to. teach you how to hunt. And the person. who's going to teach you. uh who who's going to be just a good. listener is going to sit next to you. If you have all of these people present. in your life, you have this rich library. of relationships that you can use as you. grow. And I think that because different. people have different timing to their. trauma and they have different kinds of. trauma, they're all going to need different.

books from the library. Yes. And the problem with the current mental. health system is. that we give everybody the same book. It's like we need instead of like. having a little, you know, one shelf bookmobile, which is kind of what mental health. treatment is right now. We need a. Library of Congress. of opportunities that are culturally. specific, that it can that can focus on.

on. movement and music and art and all the. things that are part of the world that. help us heal. If you are seen and you are relationally. connected in a community, you have a rich library of resources. that you can tap into. to help you heal and to help you grow. and to help you buffer whatever current. stressors you're having right now. have to come from the person that you. think it was supposed to come from. Absolutely. Yeah. It could be anybody who actually.

fully sees you and values you as a human. being. Right. Yeah. And it can and. For me that was teachers. That's why. teachers, I'm telling you, every teacher. in the country. Yes. And it like so it doesn't have to be a. 45-minute session once a week, which is. one little thing. It's a little dose of somebody, oh, I. see you. I'm going to have a real. conversation. Like the guy who drove. drove me here today, we had a great. conversation. He grew up in in Beaumont, Texas. Talked about his life. We talked. about stuff. That was the That was the.

It's like I remember telling the story. to Shukur when I was a little girl, I came to my church and her husband was. running for governor and she just turned. to me and I never thought of myself as. an attractive kid, you know. And she just said to me, "You are as. pretty as a speckle pup." That moment. stuck with me forever and ever and ever. And so, I mean, just I think what you're. mentioning is being able to be fully. present, to be there and see a person. for who they are. And, you know, Dr.

Bruce Perry, thank you for sharing your. wisdom. Again, thank you for writing. this book. 2020, we did this book. I. mean, thank you. My pleasure. And to all of our guests, to Alexis and. to Annie and to Dave and to Judge Salas. for sharing that story about your. beautiful Daniel. Um, to our guests who. read the book and shared their. experiences and questions, What Happened. to You is available wherever books are. sold and my hope is that it does exactly.

what Alexis says, that you read the book. and whatever has happened to you, you. realize it's not your fault. Number one, it's not your fault and. you're not alone. And it serves as a. light in your life and a guide to remind. her that healing is possible. And. subscribe to the Oprah podcast if you. don't want to miss an episode cuz we're. talking about good things every week. here. Go well. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify,

Apple podcast or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.