Oprah and Misty Copeland on Her Remarkable Life & Career that Transformed Dance & More

Do you feel that it is obviously [music]. your training, obviously the work, but. there's also something watching you? >> [music]. >> It's like something divine is also. happening. >> I have felt that from the moment I. started dancing, that [music] it has. been something that I've needed. It's. been a part of my survival. It's been a. part of the way that I've escaped, [music] you know, so much adversity. throughout my life. >> Hey there, and thank you for listening. and watching The Oprah podcast. And.

hello to all of you who are seeing us on. YouTube. Really glad to be here with you. all today. I am in my tea house with a. What is the word? You are a phenomenal. woman in the greatest sense of the word. and everything that Maya Angelou meant. when she wrote that poem. Phenomenal. You're also a trailblazer. who has transformed the face of ballet, of dance, and so much more. She is a.

transcendent talent, Misty Copeland. She. was the first black female principal. dancer at the illustrious American. Ballet Theatre. And now, after 25 years, I like that number, she's taking her. final bow. She's written over 10 books, and in two new children's books, Letters. to Misty and Bunheads Act Two, she. shares the lessons that kept her on her. toes, literally, while making history. Welcome. Welcome. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> I know all these years we.

>> I know. >> never never. >> How did that happen? >> know how that I think you did so we did. something with you on The Oprah show. about remembering your spirit or. SuperSoul or something we did, but I. wasn't there. But I wasn't there. Mhm. >> So, we're recording this conversation. It's September right now, and your. retirement gala, which I have agreed to. be on the board as a co-chair for and I. did that just so I could meet you.

>> [laughter]. >> And then this happens. Uh the gala is in. October. Uh and so this podcast will be. airing after that. After announcing her. retirement, Misty Copeland took her. final bow on October 22nd at the. world-renowned American Ballet Theatre. where she spent 25. barrier-breaking years of her life as a. ballerina. I had the honor of co-chairing that gala. on a starry night at the Lincoln Center. in New York City. After her performance, Misty stood at.

center stage and received a 15-minute. standing ovation. >> [music]. >> So that would have been your first. public performance in five years. So. what's going through your mind now as. you're preparing for it? >> You know, it's taken a lot for me to get back on. stage. Um. >> Because you've been off for. >> I.

didn't want to. I I I really, you know, have been. struggling with um. what it means for me to be back on stage. at this point in my career. And so. >> So it's been five years? >> It's been five years and it was my. choice, you know, to to kind of step. back and um and just really reassess. what it was I what it is I'm doing on. the stage. You know, I've done so much. throughout my career and and and you. know, represented,

you know, my community. um and what it is to not fit a mold and. I feel like I've said so much and. there's so much more work to be done and. I feel like that has to be done off the. stage. And so it's that combined with a. lot of things, you know, I think just um. burnout from having injury and being in. pain for so many years that you kind of. lose that. >> Mhm. >> that sparkle, that passion for it. And. so,

it's been really intense getting back to. the stage. Um not just physically, but. emotionally and psychologically. I mean, all of those things have to really be in. sync and connected. You know, it's the. same with. >> Now you're a mom and that changes. everything. >> completely changes everything. My body. is completely different and it's really. a new body that I'm in, you know, approaching doing the work I've done my. whole life. But, I feel like I've gotten. over that hump of um feeling frustrated. or feeling, you know, that I'm doing.

this. because I want to say thank you to all. of the people who have supported me, but. I'm at a point now where I want to do it. for myself. And um. >> The final dance. >> The final dance with American Ballet. Theatre. >> Yes. >> Um and I'm really looking forward to it. I'm really excited. Again, I feel like. I've gotten over that hump where I'm not. just kind of like hanging on by my. fingernails because it's physically so. difficult to get back into that kind of. shape. Um but now I'm like, "Okay, I'm.

in a groove. I'm rehearsing the pieces. that I will perform and they're all so. meaningful to me." So, it's it's like. this beautiful love letter to my. classical career and to American Ballet. Theatre. >> Mhm. Psychologically, I understand that thing. of. I remember making the decision after 25. years. >> Mhm. >> to no longer do the Oprah show. >> Mhm. >> And it wasn't one thing. It was a series. of things. It's like I realized that I'd.

reached a point where. I was asking the same questions and I. could not muster the same excitement for. "What is that eyelash you're wearing?" I. mean, if I did another makeover. I mean, in the beginning I was excited about. everybody and their excitement about the. microphones and then I was just realized. I don't know another way to say that. that. is coming from a true self and I always. wanted to not be doing it. if it wasn't completely authentic.

>> Right. >> Yeah. >> I completely relate to that. I. completely relate to it. And you know, I. feel like. I got to a place. um. it was in 2019 I got to a place where I. just I felt like I always told myself I. guess similarly to you that I would I. wouldn't do it if I. >> You didn't you know I said I don't want. them dragging me out with the microphone. yet. >> at all. >> Yeah. And how did you know you were. ready to step away? >> Mhm. Um.

my the last performance I was supposed. to. dance was the lead in the ballet Giselle. at the Kennedy Center. in DC and it's one of my favorite roles. and I had injured my back and I had to. pull out of the performance the morning. of the show and I remember feeling. relieved. um and not sad. And I was like this is not a good sign. Um and I really need to kind of step. back and evaluate what's going on and. why I'm feeling this way. You know, and.

I think I think it was again. a combination of of you know a. 20 years of performing you know up until. that point and dealing with a severe. injury that you know, I had a. surgery on my tibia and a plate screwed. in after um six stress fractures and. even after having this surgery, I was. still performing in a lot of pain and I. just feel like I got to a point where. that excitement kind of wore off and. that you know, working towards this goal. of becoming a principal dancer and now I.

was just exhausted in every way, you. know, especially mentally and. emotionally exhausted to have to muster. up that. uh, energy to get on stage and rehearse, you know, day after day. Um, and again, I just felt like I feel. like being a black body on the stage, I've done what I needed to do, and now. there's so much other work that needs to. be done off stage and behind the scenes. and sitting on boards of these, um, you know, theaters and institutions.

that don't have artists and don't have. black women, um, and that my voice, I. think, will have an impact in a. different way by not being on the stage. anymore. >> I can't imagine, and I don't think. anyone else. who's watching us or listening to us can. imagine the physical pain and the. emotional preparation necessary to do. what you do. I mean, where you were just. saying, you know, your tibia shattered. and you're still dancing and you're in.

pain, and. when you're doing that to us, it looks. like you're actually in another world, that you something. comes over you or comes into you that. allows you to be what you are on stage. Um, do you feel that that's something that. it is that is that it is, obviously, your training, obviously, the work, but. there's also something. watching you is like something divine is. also happening.

>> Um, I've felt that from the moment I. started dancing. That, um, it's been so much more to me than just. going out there and having fun or. because I'm good at it. It has been. uh, something that I've needed. It's been a. part of my survival. It's been a part. of, um, the way that I've escaped, you know, so. much adversity. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, and so whenever I would, whether I.

was in a ballet studio or performing on. a stage, was the first time that I felt. this sense of security and safety that. no one could do anything to me when I. was up there on the stage and something. took over. And it's a literally like. your toe crosses that threshold between. backstage and, you know, the sidelines. before you get on stage. And I become. the character as soon as I'm out there. and all of that pain and all of those.

worries and distractions go away. And so. um but your body can only tolerate that. for so long. >> yeah. Yeah, you put your body through a. lot. Yeah. I imagine in your own. personal meditations, however you do. that, you have a lot of gratitude for. your body holding up the way it has. >> Yeah. Even more so now, you know. >> Yes. >> Um at 43 and having my son Jackson, um. I'm in a completely different body than. I was at 17 when I joined American.

Ballet Theatre. Um and I have so much gratitude for this. body getting me to where I am and having. the strength and the resilience and. power. um and vulnerability that it has. >> Mm. What's it going to feel like to take. that last bow from that last dance? >> The closer I get to it, the more um. emotional it is. A year ago when I was asked to to to do. it, um I just felt like it's been 5.

years. I've already really mourned and. processed so much. The company is. different. So many of the dancers that I. grew up with are no longer there. Uh. so I I felt very removed from it. But. now that I'm back in this in the. theater, in the studio, and where I grew. up, um it's kind of bringing up not even. these memories or emotions from, you. know, 5 years ago, but like back when I. first joined. >> Really?

>> It's very interesting that that that's. what um is coming up you know being 18. 19 years old and first entering into the. company and I think this sense of you. know as you were saying gratitude. for the opportunity and for this life. that I've been given because of ballet. and the person that I've become because. of ballet. >> Are you nervous at all? >> I'm not. >> Of course though. >> I'm not. I've never been someone that. really gets nervous so.

>> Mhm. >> Um I uh. to me it's like I'm the most comfortable. and I feel the most myself when I'm on. stage so it's my whole life I've been. nervous and so this is the these are the. moments when I'm not so I'm just really. excited. >> to go back a little bit. in your story because you have written. about this before but for for those of. you who don't know. Misty's whole personal story let's talk. for a moment about your childhood. because I think.

there are such lessons. in resilience. in. in betting on yourself. and what I have come to know at this. wizened ripened age is that not one. thing that ever happens to you or you or. to me is wasted. so. all the adversity all the challenges all. the you know help to build the woman.

that you are so tell us about growing up. and your mom and your five siblings and. living out of motels and the kind of. place nobody would have thought you. would have found a ballet dancer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um I was actually born in Kansas City. Missouri. My mother. um. was a professional cheerleader for the. Kansas City Chiefs football team. >> Uh she loved movement and dance but she. really loved sports and and athletics. And so, the reason that she did want to.

become a cheerleader was so that she. could be on the field and watch the. game. Uh but so, that was really. ingrained in us, I think, this um this. love of music and of movement and kind. of using our bodies. My mom left my. father and picked up with me and my um. three siblings at the time and moved to. Los Angeles. So, I was two when I when I. came to Los Angeles. And um that was. kind of the beginning of the chaos. You. know, picking up and moving became this. theme throughout my childhood.

>> Mhm. >> By the time I was 7 years old, we would. have six There would be six children, and my mother had married two more times. and divorced. Um and it was when I was. introduced to the Boys & Girls Club at 7. years old. It was the first time that I. felt this sense of belonging and and. home, like a a real sense of home, because up until then we were living in. and out of other people's apartments and. motels. And my mother. >> No stability. >> Yeah, no stability at all. No.

consistency. Um and again, >> Not feeling safe. >> Not feeling safe. There was abuse in the. house, and. um. I became mute pretty much. I mean, I was. so introverted and didn't have a voice, and I didn't want people to know what. was going on in my. you know, home environment. So, I. thought if I don't say anything, they. won't know. >> or was it abuse to your mother? >> Both. Both. Um. and so, that was my way of coping um was.

just to not have close relationships and. um. the Boys & Girls Club was the first time. that I feel like I kind of started to. break out of that shell and had this. sense of safety, and the first time I. was introduced to the word mentor and. and what it meant to have a other. >> saved so many lives. >> lives, which is why, you know, I'm still. very pretty a a part of that community. >> Yeah, it's one of the things that I did. Yeah, I've done a lot of things as I. know you've done a lot of charitable. things, but one of the things I'm most. proud of is I went back to my community.

in Kosciusko, Mississippi and built a. Boys & Girls Club. >> No way. >> Yes, in Attala County, Kosciusko, Mississippi, [laughter]. there's Oprah Winfrey Boys & Girls Club. >> I have to visit that one cuz I have. visited so many. >> Well, if you're going to Attala County, I'm going to come join you. Okay. >> I love it. >> Okay. But yes, it saved and and and one. of the reasons I invested in that is. because. it saves children's lives. >> You're meeting them where they are. You're meeting them in their. communities. You're not pulling them. out. Uh you know, there's I was.

surrounded by people who looked like me. and understood where I was coming from. in the community that I grew up in. And. so that was really the first time that I. started to kind of feel like an. individual apart from my siblings. Um it. was. >> a young teenager, you ended up moving in. with. >> teacher. >> Yeah, with your ballet teacher. >> at 13 on the basketball court at the. Boys & Girls Club that I that I. discovered ballet. And it was from that. ballet teacher that I would live with,

Cindy Bradley. >> Cindy Bradley. >> She um. she was looking for diverse students to. bring into her school on scholarship, and I happened to be one of them at the. Boys & Girls Club. But she said she. thought I was a prodigy from the moment. she touched my foot, she says. She saw. me move, and I I went to her school on. scholarship, and it was really difficult. for my mom, she didn't have a car, to. get me back and forth, you know, to the. ballet school, and that was far from a. priority of hers with, you know, working.

two jobs and raising six children. So, my teacher offered to have me live with. her, and I ended up living with her for. 3 years. Um so that I could really focus. on the training since 13 is considered a. late age to start dancing. Um and I would move to New York City. after only 4 years. dancing, >> you see girls are doing it at 3 years. old. Yes. >> So, after only 4 years of training, um I. was invited by American Ballet Theatre. to move to New York City um and join. their company.

>> There was a moment where you were also. invited to go to the the Dance Theatre. of Harlem, and you turned that down, and. I think. that you know, that's a very prestigious. company where you would have been. surrounded by dancers who look like you, but you knew. what? >> Um it was early on in my career. It was. pretty recent, you know, after I had. moved to New York and joined American. Ballet Theatre, and it all hit me, uh. you know, that. I was the only black woman in the.

company of a company of 80 dancers, and. uh and I started to really lose myself. and and and um my my purpose, I guess, and and how I could contribute to this. company. Like, where would my path go? And it was in that time that Arthur. Mitchell, the founder of the Dance. Theatre of Harlem, who's also the first. black principal dancer at the New York. City Ballet, and he came into my life, and he was mentoring me, and he invited. me to take company class with the Dance. Theatre of Harlem. And right there on.

the spot, he offered me a soloist. contract, which was a huge deal for a. 21-year-old who was in the corps de. ballet of the of American Ballet. Theatre. He said, "Why don't you come. here, where you don't have to worry. about being different? You'll just be. like everyone else.". And I really thought about it. I went. home and I thought about it, and I just. felt like American Ballet Theatre was my. dream company, and if we don't. take that step, how will we ever see progress and change.

>> Yes. >> in these white companies? >> Yes. >> And so, I turned him down, and um I. think it was. >> scared to turn him down? >> Terrified. >> Yeah. >> I mean, he's a legend, and he's offering. me the opportunity of a lifetime. >> that would. >> very intimidating. >> very intimidating, but I knew that I had. a bigger understanding of what it was I. wanted to do. >> Even at 21? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and you'd only been dancing at. that point for 8 years. >> Yeah. >> Yes. You say.

in Letters to Misty, which is a. beautiful book and I'm going to have you. sign one to my great nieces cuz I think. it's wonderful if you're. trying to discover yourself and trying. to figure things out about your life. You say on page 19, "Being the only. black woman at American Ballet Theatre. for the first 10 years of my career was. incredibly tough. There were days when I. questioned if I belonged." And you go on. to say, "I came to realize that if I. didn't present myself with confidence, if I didn't act like I belonged, then.

how could I expect anyone else to see me. that way?" How were you able to do this? >> Um. you know, Arthur Mitchell was had a big. part to do with that, that. understanding. Um I remember that first time I came. into the Dance Theatre of Harlem. building and he said to me, "You have to. walk in this room like you like you are. a queen. Like you belong here because if. you don't believe it, no one else is. going to believe it." And it completely.

changed the way I thought about how I. carried myself, that it wasn't just. about how I uh how I performed on a. stage, but it's how I'm always carrying. myself. Um that you know, >> If you don't believe it, nobody else. will. >> believe it, no one else will. And it. definitely changed my perspective. >> a truth for so many people who now. suffer from imposter syndrome. I think a lot of people don't believe it. themselves and therefore. uh.

see how other people don't believe it. because that's also what they're. projecting. And other people may not. believe it. It doesn't matter if other. people believe it as long as you believe. it. I will tell you one of the reasons. why I was able to be so. successful in my business and in. syndication is because [clears throat]. when I did the contract and I said. I want 50% if we get to this number. If. we sell this many stations and if we get. this. and they said okay. You know why? Cuz.

they didn't believe it would happen. They didn't believe it. If they had. known that it was going to happen, I. would have never gotten [laughter] that. deal. So, one of the dedications that you do. in Letters to Misty. it reads to your mentors and your. teachers and your loved ones. you are the foundation. of dreams realized, a foundation of. dreams realized. And there's a man named.

John Meehan. who was the director of American Ballet. Theaters studio company when Misty. joined at just 16 years old and he is. now joining us on Zoom. Hello. >> Hello. >> Hello John Meehan. What did you see in. Misty at 16? >> What did I see? Well, I saw I suppose. you would say endless potential. >> Endless potential. >> And she she had. the limbs.

to speak as a real ballet dancer. You. know, we speak with our limbs so they. have to be a certain shape. Hers were. outstanding, especially her beautifully. arched feet. She actually pointed a. foot. Was it Cindy Bradley who pointed. it for Misty? >> Yes. >> And she said immediately you're a ballet. dancer just from pointing a foot. Uh. but she had all of the basics. She was. limber, she could turn, she could jump. She was a charming person and it was as. if somebody had given me a perfect.

canvas, For a prime to canvas, the best. oil paints and best brushes and said. here, make something wonderful. And. And we began and And we did. >> I think. >> Yeah. Yeah. What has it meant for you, to John, watch Misty's career and the way she has. navigated her place in the world? What. has that meant for you to see. that. First of all, affirm what you saw in her.

and affirm it at a level that you never. even expected. I mean, cuz the world. never expected this from her. >> I wasn't surprised that she became a. principal dancer, and I think Misty. knows that. I think I said it to her. quite a few times. Uh. >> But did you believe him when he first. said it to you, Misty? >> I did believe John, but it would change. in the years after. >> Yeah. >> Well, when I kind of passed her along to. the main company, I was I was able to. take stand stand back and watch her.

develop. Uh it was very frustrating for me and. for her that she had time away with. injuries. And you know, I think a little bit of. that of that is because she started. later in life. Even when you start very young, your. your muscles, sinews, bones, everything. is is getting a kind of a strength that. Misty didn't have starting at 13. So, she had kind of battle that, I think, really your whole career. Would you say. >> That's fair? >> Yeah. I I agree with you. Yeah, I think.

it was a a combination of things. I. think also maybe not even because I'd. started later, I didn't maybe go to a professional. ballet school, you know, one of the big. big companies and big schools, is that I. didn't really understand how to how to. take care of my body. I didn't really. think of it as as my instrument and, you. know, what I was putting into it, how I. was feeling it, how I was. cross-training, all of those things. It. was all so natural to me that I just. kind of did it. Um, and, you know, John's belief in me, your belief in me,

um, was everything, uh, you know, for. from a young age, but once I joined the. company and I no longer had this almost. parental father figure, you know, holding my hand and you're kind of. thrust into this adult world on your own. now. Um, it became very real, you know, what it was not just to be someone who. maybe wasn't completely strong enough. and ready, but also as a black woman who. felt very alone. Um, which I felt, uh,

just made it a lot more difficult for. me. >> Mhm. John, thank you so much for joining us. and saying hello. >> I love you. >> Yeah. >> I like that. I love you back. Thanks so much. Thanks so much. >> Thank you. >> I know Debbie Allen was also a mentor. for you. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Debbie Debbie came into my life. very early. Cindy Bradley, my first. teacher, was very conscious and. thoughtful about how she kind of. prepared me in the best way she could to.

enter into the ballet world. You know, she was thoughtful of the fact that I. was the only black woman girl for the. most part at her school and how am I. going to prepare this young girl to. enter into the dance world. >> So, Debbie such an icon. What What did. she model for you? >> Debbie came into my life and showed me. what it was to lead. She showed me what. it was to, um, to be proud of her community and. where and, you know, where she came from. and bringing her community with her. everywhere she goes. She leads with joy.

and with love and community is always at. the base of it. >> Absolutely. And I think what's so wonderful and one. of the reasons why I know you wrote. Letters to Misty is that you have this. desire to give back and mentor in the. same way that John and Debbie and Cindy. and others have mentored you and to be. able to be a voice for these young girls. who are watching you and seeing.

the possibility of what might be for. them through you. >> It's It's so vital. You know, I I. wouldn't be where I am if I didn't have. the support that I had from early on in. my career and throughout my career. And. so I know how important it is to have. that. >> We heard from a lot of our podcast. listeners who want your advice. 11-year-old Savannah. is uh with us and she has been a. competitive dancer now for. 8 years and dreams of being a.

professional dancer, I hear. Like. Like like like Radio City Music Hall as. a Rockette or maybe even a ballerina. Oh, I see Misty's book on the shelf. Very good. Nice to meet you. >> Nice to meet you, too. I have one question. What would be your. advice for a dancer like me wanting to. be just like you in the ballet world. and especially as a dancer of color like. me?

>> Oh, wow. You know, I really think that. it's about everything we've been talking. about, Oprah. You know, I think it's. really about surrounding yourself with a. circle of support and community who will. be there to support you on those. difficult days. It's not always going to. be joyful and laughs, but it's going to. be a lot of hard work and a lot of ups. and downs and it's so vital that you. have people around you. who will be there for you and who look. like you and understand the journey that. you're on. >> Mhm. >> Thank you.

You're welcome. >> [laughter]. >> Did you have something else you wanted. to ask? I saw a whole big long list of. questions you had. >> Um. I was also wondering, why did you pick. ABT to be your school you wanted to go. to? >> What a great question. >> Um you know, it. At the time when I was starting to. train, there weren't a lot of options in. terms of seeing people that looked like. me and who looked like you and in. professional schools and professional. companies. ABT was the closest I saw to. diversity in terms of their cultural.

diversity. Um, they had dancers from all. over the world that could come into the. to the studio company, come into the. company. And so I my teacher and myself, like we felt like it was the best fit. for me as a young black girl. >> Yeah. And uh, was this your question, too? What do you. think about when you walk on stage for a. performance? Did you have that question? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> When when I'm walking on the stage, I'm. literally transforming into whatever. character I'm portraying. It's literally.

that magical moment when you become the. music. You become one with the orchestra. and with the choreography. And so I may. be listening to Drake right before, but. as soon as I step on the uh onto that. stage, I am, you know, Odette Odile or. whatever character I'm portraying. >> What is the one thing you would want. people to know that you. experience or feel through ballet that. they most people wouldn't think about?

Or know? >> I mean, I think that most people think. about kind of this um rigidness um and. and being really pulled together and. uptight. And I feel this extreme sense. of release and freedom. Um, that that. might be a. uh the opposite from a way the way that. a lot of people envision classical. ballet. >> Yeah, you you ex- because it is so. rigid, but you feel extreme. freedom. >> Freedom. >> Yeah, and release. Do you feel that when.

you're dancing, Savannah? What do you. feel when you're dancing? Tell us what. it feels like when you enter the stage. >> Well, usually when I enter the stage, I. just feel like I'm there and I'm doing. this. Like I don't think about what. other people are looking or thinking. about. I just think about what I'm. thinking and how such an honor this is. to be doing that. Wow. I'm doing it. >> [laughter]. >> Thank you so much, Savannah, for joining. us. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> That's great. Bye. Bye.

>> Bye. >> Jen is joining us from Los Angeles. She. was a professional cheerleader for both. the NBA and NFL for years and recently. you retired from that, I hear, Jen. What's your question for Misty? >> Hi. Thank you so much for having me. So, Misty, it's been such a great honor to. follow your career for so many years. Um as a Hispanic woman, you know, I've. experienced the same as 25 years of. dancing and, you know, thank you for. championing us for inclusivity and.

diversity and. putting so much courage out there. through movement and through just so. much of your heart. And my question is, when I retired after 25 years. you know, my whole life and my schedule. has been filled with rehearsals every. week and performances and so there was. such a great pause in my sense of. identity because to your point dance was. a sense of escape and a safe space from. adversity and something that was mine.

through the chaos and that I was good. at. Um and so wondering, you know, the. next stage, no pun intended, of your. life. how are you redefining who Misty is. beyond ballet and what new adventures. that may have been put on pause or. callings that excite you most about your. journey? >> Yeah. You know. >> That is such a great question. I was. going to ask you that. That's really a good question. Really. good. >> Um. the for me at at this point in my life,

like there's no moving forward without. ballet. It is so ingrained in who I am. It's given me these incredible tools. that are transferable in everything I do. and will continue to do in my life. So, I never think of it as this loss or that. I'm leaving it behind. It it will It is. forever a part of me and the woman that. I am. And it's And there's a through. line in everything that I do, whether. it's. uh you know, this. on the speaking circuit or the books. that I write or my foundation.

or the production company that I have, it's all connected to movement and. really changing the narrative in how. people view ballet. I think there's a. lot of tropes and negativity that. surround how people how people view what. it is to be a part of it. And I want to. bring that joy and wonder and sense of. community that so many experience. And. so, um I just I'm so grateful for the. journey that I've had because of ballet.

>> Wow. But that's a great question because. you would think, I mean, a lot of people. when they have been uh identified. >> Mhm. >> as one thing in their life, when that thing goes away, >> Yeah. >> they lose themselves, become depressed, become, you know, uncertain, confused. So, uh that's why I think it's such a. such a legitimate legitimate question. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Were you worried about that yourself as. a dancer, Jen?

>> Definitely. Um you know, I did go. through the highs and lows of just. trying to navigate the next chapter. And. I think that's just so human because. when you give so much of your heart and. soul to something for 20 plus years of. your life, >> Right. >> you know, there's that grieving that. Misty spoke about is very real. And I. think. it's something to also make so normal. normalize of just like you grieve loss. in different ways and loss of a career, a loss of a dedication to a passion that.

that you've excelled at and opened many. doors for people and women that need to. be represented. >> Mhm. >> Wonderful. Thank you, Jen. Thank you for. Thank you for that. Thank you so much. >> Kiera now joins us from Fort Pierce, Florida. Hi, Kiera. >> Hi. >> Where she She is completely the right. You don't dance, right? >> No. >> No. Not [clears throat] professionally, anyway. >> Uh. >> No. >> You're training for your commercial. pilot's license, I was told. >> Wow. >> And so we welcome you. So, what's going.

on. with you down there in Florida that has. you relating to Misty Copeland? >> Thank you so much for having me. Um I. appreciate being here. Um. for me, I always wanted to be a pilot, but. I never thought it was attainable for me. because I had never seen anyone that. looked like me that was a pilot. And. also, it's a very male-dominated field.

where there's only less than where. there's less than 1% of black women that. are pilots in aviation. It wasn't until I had the privilege of. meeting a black woman pilot that I was. encouraged to uh. do training and pursue my career of. becoming a pilot. >> Cuz you were a flight attendant before. You were a flight attendant a flight. attendant before. >> I was a flight attendant before. >> Okay. >> I was always interested in becoming a. pilot, but didn't think that that was.

something that I could do. Um. I flew with a black woman pilot, and she. really always encouraged me to go after. my dream. >> Mhm. >> When I started training, I was the only. black person and the only woman in my. class. And I suffered a lot from imposter. syndrome and just feeling lonely and not. being able to relate to anyone. And so, my question for you is T is how did you. power through feeling lonely, not really.

having anyone to relate to, and just the. pressure of feeling that you needed to, you know, do something great and finish. and power through. >> Mhm. I mean, I think at the at the kind. of heart of all of that was my real. passion for it. That really kept me. going. But, I mean, that's not going to. get you through on, you know, every day. and those tough days. Um and again, it. you know, it was having the support that. I've had in my life. And it was it for. me, you know, it wasn't just about.

looking for black ballet dancers, but. just black women in general who could. connect with me in the same way you feel. a connection to me. You know, even. though we're we're not in the same. field, but understand what it is to be. the only in one of what understand what. it is to be the first and to be able to. have those people to come to and have, you know, whether I'm just saying all. the things I felt in a day and they. don't say anything back, but they're. just an ear to listen was so extremely. helpful. That kept me going on this path.

and and knowing that um I do have. support. I do have people that believe. in me. >> And do you Is that helpful? >> That's very helpful. Um like I have an. organization, Sisters of the Skies, that, you know, we can go to them and. ask certain questions. But just on the. on your day-to-day, there's really no one around in your. circle that, you know, kind of. you can call on sometimes and that could.

be hard at times where you're going. through this. um this mankind. >> Well, may I just say may I. may I just say to you, Kia, as as Misty knows, when you are the. trailblazer, there isn't because you are. the one that's blazing the trail. So, I. think changing the perception of who you. are and why you're there makes a world. of difference. And listen, I've been in. so many rooms where I was the only. woman, I was the only black person. I.

mean, I remember being in some town and. I was like, I there's not a brown person. within 500-mi radius of here. And. you know, it has never bothered me or. concerned me because there was a there. was a poem that Maya Angelou did called. to our grandmothers. I think it's called. our grandmothers. And there's a line in. that poem that has lived with me and. abided with me and I share it with you. She says, I come as one. but I stand as 10,000.

And so for every meeting I've ever gone. into, every boardroom I've ever gone. into where I knew I was the only woman, I was the only person of color, I was. the only thing, I always just suited up. Literally, emotionally, spiritually, suited up. I have sometimes gone into a. closet and called on that 10,000 because. you have been prayed up. Maya used to. say this to me and this is true for you, especially your generation. You've. already been paid for.

You've already been paid for. So, all. you need to do is put your crown on and. wear it. So, you've got to know when you. walk in the space, you are the one who's. blazing the trail. And the reason you. are there blazing the trail is because. so many people prayed you up to be. there, sacrificed for you to be there, and now. you've been paid for. You've been paid for. And you you are never you are never May. I tell you you are never walking into.

the room alone. You are walking into the. room as a symbol and as as a. representative of everybody who came. before you who didn't get the chance. that you have. That's how you're walking into the room. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Beautifully said. Thank you, Kyra. >> So, you had to fight to even wear the. proper shoes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, and as you. >> proper shade of makeup. >> Yeah, as you're saying, you know, there. are so many that came before me that.

fought for this and that paved the way. and and now I'm being given a platform. to have a voice and to speak on it. That's how I I feel about my journey and. my path and and and, you know, with. having to. uh pancake my shoes, as we say, you. know, I I'm I'm in a in an art form that. is European art form. >> I heard that, read that, saw that. Oh, that the pink shoes. >> Yes, representing the. >> matching the skin. >> Yes. >> So, all these years, that's what the. pink skin was for. And then this went.

viral with like. >> Mhm. >> millions of people watching. >> As I started ballet, I've been pancaking. my pointe shoes my skin color. Everyone. has a different method. >> You know, it's it's European pink is the. color of the pointe. >> shoes, it's the color of the the tights. we wear, and if that doesn't exclude so. many, then I don't know what does, you. know? And that's the first thing you get. when you enter into this space. You get. your tights and you get your ballet. slippers, and and for all those little. black and brown boys and girls, you.

know, that that are are receiving that. message, it's saying you don't belong. Um, you know, Arthur Mitchell started it. with the Dance Theatre of Harlem in the. '70s. You know, he was dyeing their. tights and dyeing their pointe shoes so. that it was a representation of their. skin, and I feel that it's something. that we need to acknowledge. We need to. go back and give credit where it's due. and say that this is how you make it. inclusive. This is how you represent all. bodies. >> So, are they now doing tan slippers? >> It does exist. This happened during the.

pandemic post George Floyd, um, where a. couple of the of the bigger brands. >> could have had your own brand of shoes. Yes. >> I'm working on it. So, it's not too. late. >> [laughter]. >> But, you know, that they have caught on. um, and feel that it's something that. they have to do because there are more. black and brown dancers that want to be. a part of it. >> In Letters to Misty, you talk about, which was shocking to. me, not hitting puberty until the age of. 19.

First of all, why why? What was going on. in your body? >> I think it happens with a lot of really. active young girls, whether it's. gymnasts or ballet dancers. When you're. so extremely active and it and it's. something that I think is genetic in my. family. Most of the women in my family. didn't start until later. And I think I. actually would have started later than. that had my doctor not put me on birth. control to speed up the process. >> So, you didn't get your first period. until you were performing.

>> I was performing professionally. I was. actually in one of my first Swan Lakes, when I was in the court of ballet, that. I got my period on stage in a white. tutu. >> Oh my goodness. >> Pretty traumatizing. >> [laughter]. >> Oh my goodness. We've all had our own. bad stories, right? I can't imagine. What do you want to say about your. relationship to your body now and. and how that relationship has changed? >> Yeah, it's had it's had so many. so many growths and evolutions and I.

have to embrace and accept my body for. what it is in that moment. >> Yeah. >> I think even when I, you know, went. through puberty at 19, I gained 10 lb. within a couple of months and I had a. completely different body. But I had to. keep telling myself I will never be that. 16-year-old girl again. What do I have. to do to be my healthiest self in this. body? And I think that's how I've how. I've been on this journey even after. having my son. This is not the same body that I entered. American Ballet Theatre having and I. have to have a different grace and.

approach to the things that I'm doing. and respect for it. >> Well, you know what? I have such respect. for the way you have managed all of this. because. we know having a big life. can become really unmanageable to a lot. of people, and particularly when you've. grown up and you didn't have anything to. model that, you know? It was you were it. was a late. >> Yeah. Your.

>> Your ideas about yourself had already. been formed by the time you moved in. with Cindy and and her family. And I. heard that you and your siblings, despite your role models growing up, despite growing up in an environment. where where often you didn't feel safe, and as you say, there was there was. abuse, all six of you have long-term. partners, no divorces. >> How is it that all of your siblings. have long-term relationships when you.

all came from such craziness? >> I I think we're all very similar in a. lot of ways in that we didn't want to. repeat this cycle. This is a real fear. of a. >> but they do. >> true true fear of of it. Um we're also all very close um. with one another, and I you know, I. don't know. It's it's pretty it's pretty. wild. >> It is. >> Yeah. That yeah. It's really really. incredible. >> thousands of interviews, and usually. people repeat the things that they.

>> see and don't want to do. >> want because that thing is familiar, so. you draw to yourself exactly the. opposite of what you think you want. Yes. >> incredible. >> That's pretty Y'all should be studied. >> [laughter]. >> I really. I think it's a case study. I've never heard of such a thing. >> Yeah. >> I've never heard of such a thing. It's. always somebody or one one or two or. three, and and then not only that, they. repeat the same pattern that your mother. repeated. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> one person and another person and. another partner. It's highly highly. highly unusual, I can tell you. >> Yeah. It is. >> Tell us about your husband. >> It's pretty it's pretty incredible. He's an amazing man that you know, I. think I was drawn to him because I felt. such safety and stability and. partnership. Um. I think that you know, I was maybe not. skeptical about marriage but not. something I felt that I needed to jump. into. I think my mom.

>> So your mom did it multiple times. >> Exactly. >> And it not work out. >> Exactly. So that's the role model you. had. Yeah. Um my husband and I were. together for. uh. oh like 15 years I think something like. that close to before we were married. Um and you know, I think what makes him. so special and so different and and. perfect for me is that again it's never. been. about us as individuals but what are we. doing to support one another? You know, he waited to propose to me until I was.

promoted to principal dancer because he. didn't want to distract in any way. He. didn't want me to have my mind on. anything else. So the day after I was. promoted he proposed to me and I was. just like what is happening? What is my. life right now? But he's an incredible incredible man. >> And that day of making principal dancer, was that. everything you had imagined it to be? I. know you had wanted it for a long time. Did it fulfill. the expectation? >> Not that day, I wouldn't say. I mean, you know, I think that by the time I got.

to that place of being promoted, I had. already done so much and kind of. processed. what it would be if I weren't promoted. and I was getting to perform principal. roles and I was so satisfied with that. that it no longer felt that it was about. the title. Um and so by the time I was. promoted to principal dancer, I was kind. of like, oh, okay. But I understand the. importance of the title. It it it it.

there needs to be that change and that. uh you know, that evolution of what it. looks what it looks like to be a. ballerina, who can be a ballerina. And. so, of course, the title is is. necessary. But, in that moment, it was. like. "Okay, I can kind of relax now, but now. the real work begins." [laughter] Now. that I'm actually a principal. >> begins. >> Because what quality do you think. besides. obviously talent and technique, do you. think is the most important quality to.

have in being a principal dancer? What. is the stuff? >> I think it's leadership. >> It's leadership, yeah. >> You know, that's that's not something I. ever thought about as a as a young. dancer that that was a quality that I. needed to have. But, I remember getting. to a place where I was starting to get. those roles in Kevin McKenzie, who's the. artist who was the artistic director of. American Ballet Theatre, when he started to see lead that those. leadership skills um developing in me. was when he started to give those roles.

to me. And he was like, "It's a it's a. real responsibility to go on stage and. to lead an entire company and that it's. not just about you out there.". >> That's right. >> You're a you're a supporting character. in this storytelling. Um and I feel like that's how I think. >> And isn't it also about actitude? >> Yes, it is. >> Say that. >> Actitude. >> Actitude. >> Not just the position attitude, but it. is. It's your the attitude you have and. how you how you carry yourself and how. you step onto a stage and kind and. motivate and I'm kind of cultivate that.

energy amongst, you know, the entire. company. >> And the respect. and responsibility. that your fellow. >> Mhm. >> dancers feel towards you. >> Yes. >> So, you. >> first things that I remember doing as a. principal dancer, I remember being in. the corps de ballet and when those. those ballerinas would take so long. during their bows and you've always. already been standing on the side for. long periods of time on one leg and you.

can only switch legs once that ballerina. leaves the stage and I remember all of. us just moaning going, "Please leave the. stage." The first thing I did, I. remember doing my first one like I took. my bow, you know, fully and respectfully. and I got my butt off that stage cuz I. was like, "Those girls are in pain.". >> Waiting [laughter] waiting to come on. Wow. Wow. Thinking of others. Thinking. of others. I want to say I am just so honored to. be one of the co-chairs along with.

Caroline Kennedy for your gala and as I. was saying to you before we started, I. I'm not on people's boards. I don't do. this thing. of lending my name for the honorary. chair and this and that and that, but I. did that in order to meet you because I. just thought that this was this. final dance is going to be such a. seminal moment for you, the country, the. culture. I know it's going to be an. event like no other and we're just all. so excited to celebrate with you and.

when you. when you wake up the next morning and. your eyes open and you know 25 years. have come. and gone, what do you. think. not just the next chapter, but that. feeling will be of? >> I already feel so fulfilled and I think. I will feel. fulfilled and and grateful. I think I.

will really feel immense gratitude um. for. you know, I never imagined that ballet. would take me here and that I would. become the person that I am and to me. that is what's been most um incredible, you know, to to to see from the outside, to experience as myself, as the from the. girl that I was at 13 years old, to see. that growth is even more impressive than.

any accolades, any performances I've. had. Um, and that's why I think. arts education is so incredibly vital. and important. >> Mhm. Well, I thank you. I thank you for being. the woman that you are, a phenomenal, phenomenal woman. And when you see her. walking, it ought to make you proud. That's a line from Maya's poem. Uh, I thank you for that, being a. phenomenal woman. I thank you for. the gift of your artistry.

I thank you for handling it the way that. you have, with such grace, for leaning. into it, and I thank you for your. courage, and for paving the way for so. many countless others. >> Thank you so much. >> You really make me proud to spell my. name, w o m a n. You do. >> That means so much. That means so much. coming from you. Thank you. >> I also want to thank our guests, John. Mian, Kiara, Jen, and Savannah. Thank. you, for your questions, and thank you,

listeners, for joining us in celebrating. Misty Copeland's extraordinary. legacy. A very special thanks to our. friends at Walmart for supporting this. episode. Uh, and the book is called. Letters to Misty and Bunheads Act Two. So, I'm going to I I think if you have. young daughters, especially, or young. adults in your life who are trying to. figure it out for themselves, this is a. great gift, great gift.

>> Until next week. Go well, everyone. You can subscribe to the Over podcast on. YouTube, and follow us on Spotify, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll. see you next week. Thanks, everybody.