Oprah and Jonathan Haidt on How Social Media Is Changing Childhood

Hey everybody. Hey there. A warm welcome. to you. Thanks for joining me here on. the Oprah podcast. I am actually really. excited to talk to Jonathan Haidt about. his book The Anxious Generation, How the. Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing. an Epidemic of Mental Illness. This book. is doing something that you actually. don't see often these days. It's causing. a real shift in public opinion and even. policies in a big way.

For anyone under the age of 25 and. certainly for other age groups, much of. life is lived through smartphones, tablets, [music] and on social media. On. this episode, we are asking the. question, at what cost? It takes away from so many things in my. life. We are only just beginning to understand. the impact social media and smart. devices have on the mental and emotional. health of young people whose brains are. still developing. I know this is an. issue that is top of mind for many of.

you parents. When he does not have access to social. media or his phone, he gets very. agitated. He gets very angry. He um. has what I would call a teenage temper. tantrum. Social psychologist, NYU professor, and. best-selling author Jonathan Haidt is on. a mission to reach parents not only. about his belief of the harmful effects. of smartphones and social media, but. also to help them take action now to. prevent potential long-term damage in.

their children. It is urgent that you restore your. brain. You're still young, but if you do. this until you're 25, then the damage. might be permanent. Jonathan's New York Times bestseller, The Anxious Generation, How the Great. Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an. Epidemic of Mental Illness, digs into. the skyrocketing mental health crisis in. young people. We have to [music] change the way we're. raising kids. We have to give them back. a an exciting, fun childhood in the real.

world, not on a screen. Jonathan Haidt joins us. Thank you for. joining me from your office at NYU. Hello. Hello, Oprah. How nice to be back. talking with you. Yeah, so this book has been on the New. York Times best sellers list now for 1. year, and I would say it's because it's. resonating. And anytime I run into. parents who are talking about what to I. don't know, what are we going to do. about all these phones? I go, "Have you. read The Anxious Generation?" So many.

people have read it. What do you think. it is that's. kept it on the New York Times best. sellers list and has kept you running. from one seminar to the next talking. about this? Well, thanks, Oprah. It's very easy to. answer that question. The answer is that. all over the world, all over the. developed world at least, family life. has become a fight over screen time. It. wasn't like this in 2010. I mean, we. fought over television a little bit, but. it's once our kids all got iPads,

iPhones, social media apps, and that all. happened around 2012, it's been a fight over screen time. We. all hate it. We're all feeling trapped. We're all looking for a way out, and I. think that's why the book has been a. best seller around the world. Okay, so what's going on with the teens. who are basically addicted? Would you. say that they there is an addiction. problem? Absolutely. Absolutely. Let me share. with you two horrific stats, and you. might expect this to be the suicide. stats that you and I talked about last. time, you know, up 50% for adolescents.

since 2010, uh up 140%. for younger teen girls. Those are. horrific, but there are two other. numbers I can't get out of my mind. One is 48%, which is the percentage of. our adolescents in America who say that. they are online almost constantly. The. phone is always in their hand. They're. always checking it. Even if they're. talking with you, they're thinking about. what's on the phone. They are checked. out of life. They're never fully.

present. They're almost constantly. involved on in social media. That's one. number. 48% of our teens, that's. happened to. And then what I just found yesterday, which I can't believe, but here it is. 40%. That's the number of two-year-olds. two-year-olds in this country who have. their own iPad, their own iPad. Which means that in the last few years, what that means is that Americans and. it's the same thing in Britain, I know.

Americans have basically realized, "Hey, if I just give the kid an iPad, I can. have some peace. I can check my email. I. can make dinner." And we we're using. this as a babysitter. So, yes, you ask. me, is it addiction? Yes, from the age. of two all the way through the teen. years, at least half our kids are. hooked, I would say addicted. Wow. And according to the CDC, 11-to-14-year-olds are spending up to 9. hours a day on their screens. And you. call this the great rewiring.

of childhood. What impact, you just said. it's addiction, but what impact is all. this screen time having on young minds? I can I can't I'm I'm blown away by that. two-year-old statistics. Yeah. Right. I think the best way to. understand it is for for older people, at least if you were let's say 35 years. old or older, you probably grew up. playing outside with friends. You had. some freedom. And so I'd I'd like. everyone in the everyone watching think.

back about the most exciting, wonderful. things that you did as a kid. What are. your best memories? Okay. Now, let's go through it and let's. see what it's like for that half of our. kids who are online almost all the time. What's it like for them? So, did you Do you with your friends? Did you ever share a laugh with your. friends? Of course. I just did a quick. calculation before we talked here. Somewhere between 200,000 times and a. million times is probably about the. number of laughs that we shared with a. friend. Imagine cutting that by 90%. Take 90% of it out of your child's life.

Because they don't see their friends. very much. And typing lol is not the. same as laughing hysterically with your. friends. And. Did you ever look out a car window and. just daydream? Did you ever do Of course. we did We all did that. Okay? Imagine. taking out 100% of that. Because now as. soon as the kid gets in the car, they. have a device. They're on the device the. whole way. That's right. Did you ever play outside? Cut 70% of. that. Uh did you ever read a book? Cut. 60% of that. Did you ever have a hobby?

Cut 80% of that. So when our kids are. online about 8, 10, 12 hours a day, there isn't time for anything else. It. pushes everything out of childhood. And. that is a sad childhood. We've got to. stop this. Yeah, I read an article recently about. an uh the college kids arriving in. school now, many of them have not. actually ever completed a book. Which was. It was so startling to me, you know? You.

didn't have to actually read a book. You. read sections of a book, a portions of a. book, or you got this online, you know? It I find that really to be incredible. Well, that's right. And the last time. you and I spoke, we focused on mental. illness, uh anxiety, depression. And. we're going to talk a lot about that. today. That's really, really important. But what I've learned since you and I. last spoke is that I think an even. bigger harm that happened to our kids is. the destruction of their ability to pay. attention. Because this is We're not. just talking about 10, 20% of the kids.

We're talking about most of them. I teach at New York University. Very. smart kids here in the business school. A lot of them say they have a lot of. trouble reading. As one of my students. said, "I read a sentence, I get bored, I take. out TikTok.". That's the way they It's always been. TikTok has always been there for them, and it's almost always It's always more. entertaining than whatever reading I. could assign to them. So, yeah, their. attention is fragmented, shattered. So, you also believe, you say in the.

anxious generation, uh. which should be in every parent's home, whether your kids are 2 or 12 or 15, you. believe that parents are overprotecting. their children in the physical world, you say, or real world, while. underprotecting them online. And why. should this. sound an alarm for the parents who are. listening to us right now? Yeah, cuz look, we all want to protect. our kids. Uh I have a daughter 15 and a. son 18. We all want to protect them, but.

we've got to protect them for the right. things. When you and I were growing up, Oprah, there was a crime wave. There was real. danger, but kids still played outside. It didn't usually hit the kids that. much. So, kids still played outside. All. kids played outside. And when we were. together, we were we were safe. Um. since you and I were kids, the crime. rate has plummeted. It's much safer now. There's much less drunk driving. So, and. and child molesters, we we started. locking them up. We didn't used to lock. them up when you and I were kids. We. thought they were just eccentrics.

So, the physical world, the real world. is actually safer than it was 40, 50. years ago. Crime went way down in the. '90s. Where did all the child molesters go? They went on to Instagram. Yes, they are. where it's really, really easy to talk. with children and to ask them for a. photograph, and maybe a photograph of. them in their in in their bikini. And. before you know it, you have a naked. photo of them, and you can send. us your stomach, or show us your this, or show us any body part. That's where.

they all are. Exactly. So, what I'm trying to say is. that we've got to lighten up, loosen up, let our kids out into the real world. where it's actually much safer and. that's where children need to develop. They need to play with each other in. person. And we've got to tighten up on. the online world where there are lots of. strangers talking to your child if she's. on social media. Jonathan, you said giving social media. to teenage girls is like handing them a. gun.

I think that is so potent. How do young. women use social media differently than. young men? Yeah. So, first let's just look at how. young young women and young men are. socially. Girls are much more interested. in their relationships. They need a few. good friends. Um they talk a lot. Boys don't talk as much. Boys do things. together in larger groups. And so, social media it has been completely. devastating for girls because the way a.

friendship develops is you share. secrets, you talk one-on-one, you talk. in a small group, you gossip. But on. social media, it's this giant. conversation. People are performing. They're not really connecting. And this is happening in middle school. especially at a time when girls are just. beginning to develop. They're just. starting puberty. They're very. self-conscious about their bodies. And. what are people talking about? Your. face, your hair, your your boobs, your. your skin. It makes good It's so sad to. me how it pushes girls to be sexual and.

shallow. I'm I just opened an account on Snapchat. because my daughter wants Snapchat. So, I opened an account for myself. pretending to be a 14-year-old boy. I. can't believe what the girl what it. makes the girls do. Um it's disgusting. And so, if you're if you're going to go. through puberty on Snapchat or Instagram. or TikTok, it's going to be bad for. girls. Now, for boys, it's not as. emotionally damaging, but boys get sucked into crazy. destructive behavior. And it's things. like, let's attack some kid so that we.

can get a video of it and post it. And it again, it's dehumanizing, it's. degrading. Uh so, this is why I say no. kid should be on any of these social. media platforms until at least 16. This. is just not appropriate for children. You cannot make this stuff safe for. children. You were saying that though you were you. went on Snapchat as a 14-year-old. Your. daughter is 15. So, is your daughter on. your daughter's on Snapchat? No, she is not. I will not let her on. Snapchat. What I've seen is so.

disgusting. Um it's not pornography. I've not seen pornography. But, what I'm. seeing is that it makes the girls all. pose in this sexy semi-porn way. It it. just pushes the girls to be shallow and. and uh sexy. So, you. way I'm letting my daughter on Snapchat. Oh, and also Snapchat keeps pushing me. to connect with people I don't know. And that's how you get in the. That's how you start talking to adults. in other countries who want money or sex. from you. That's. That's right. That's right. Uh Carrie, she says her 17-year-old son Nick spends.

10 hours a day on his phone even. watching videos in the shower. Wow, Nick. I didn't know you could bring. the phone in the shower, but apparently. I didn't either. Yeah, it's turned into like an issue. Um. whenever like I go to um take a shower, I end up with the phone in the shower. So, Cuz you can't be without the phone long. enough to shower. I guess I can. I just like the attention. span. Not my I like to watch the videos.

They're interesting to me. Okay. Would you Okay, so for Carrie, let's hear from you. What concerns you. most about Nick's phone usage? Thank you. both for being here, by the way. Thank. you, Nick, for joining. Thank you for having us. Thank you and. gratitude for for having us um and. letting us talk to Jonathan and yourself. about this. Um what concerns me the most is really. the mental health issue, anxiety, depression, especially depression,

is very prevalent in our family on both. sides, my husband's side and my side. Um. Addiction is also huge in our family and. my main concern is that this addiction. to the phone will turn into an addiction. of something else, drugs, alcohol, um. pornography. I All All of the things. that could be available.

Um and. I. We were talking about him being in the. shower with it. Um I realized last. summer he was coming in from cheer. practice and I was in the kitchen. The. garage is right off the kitchen. And he. I could hear the Instagram reels going. and it's literally a 20-ft maybe walk. from his car into the kitchen and he. couldn't be. not entertained for that amount of time.

So I in passing said something to our. our 20-year-old daughter, Molly, I said, "Hey, do you know your brother like I'm. starting to see that this might be a. problem." And she goes, "Mom, he's in. the shower and he's got the Instagram. the reels going and he's got the TikToks. going and all of this." And that's when. I was like, "This is a real problem.". Nick, do you think you're addicted? Do. you think you have a problem?

Oh, yes, 100%. 100% there's a problem. Okay. That's a That That's a good start. That's a good start. Is it Jonathan a. good start? That's a very good start. If If he sees. that there's a problem, then it's going. to definitely be possible to solve it. And so So. Carrie, you're absolutely right to worry about. his mental health. Now, for girls, the. connection between social media use and. depression and anxiety is much stronger.

Um, it sounds like Nick, are you. suffering from depression or anxiety. right now, or is that not really your. issue now? Um, that's not really an issue right. now, I wouldn't say. All right, okay. Cuz what what I see. happening is we focused a lot on social. media and girls cuz that's a very strong. connection. We That's really devastating. the girls. And it took me a while to. realize while I was writing the book. that the story for boys is actually very. different and addiction is at the. center. So, uh. Carrie, Nick, do you know the word. dopamine? Do you know what dopamine.

means, the neurotransmitter? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So, But how do you get home watching the. videos? Well, it's So, what it really is, what. dopamine is it's said to be the reward. neurotransmitter because it makes us. feel good, but the key thing is it's the. motivation neurotransmitter. So, when. you do something and then you get a. reward, you then are motivated to do it. again. And then you get the reward and. you dig yourself deeper and deeper. And. if you do it a lot, your dopamine. neurons adapt. They're trying to get.

back to a normal level, so they become less sensitive to. dopamine. So, now you need more and more. dopamine. So, Nick, what happens if you. are separated from your phone for an. hour or two? Is that no problem or do. you start to feel something? Um, I feel it. I can go an hour or two. I would say it's more of like the longer. uh. hours without it. Okay, what happens to you when you go. hours without it? Um, like I just I just want to sit there and. just like watch a video. I don't.

necessarily like I want something to. entertain me. Mhm. Okay. Well, good. I I saw Carrie shaking her head. Carrie, yeah yeah, go ahead. Carrie. Yeah. Um, when he goes without when he does. not have access to social media or his. phone, he gets very agitated. He gets. very angry. He. has what I would call a teenage temper. tantrum. Um he's. he cannot go hours without a phone. We. went on a cruise last summer and.

he was. miserable the whole time because he. didn't have access to the phone if we. weren't on land. Wow. Can I ask you but don't you have to. be without it in school because hasn't. Florida banned the phones in schools? They they have they have on paper banned. the phones in schools. I think he can. tell you. Yeah. Yeah, they've banned it like by law but. it's really like a school to school. basis. Every school is different. So for.

majority of the schools I believe it's. our electronics that we get ThinkPads, Surfaces. Some schools even get. MacBooks. They are all like they just. start to break down because they're so. old and they're so overused. The issue is the school's the technology. is not good and so they have to get on. their personal electronics in order to. complete the classwork because. everything is online. Okay. Even when they're in person. That's a separate issue which is a very. serious issue which is that all of this.

ed tech all of these screens in front of. students it turns out is really bad for. their education. Test scores have been. dropping around the world since 2012. because of in part because of the. educational technology. But let's get. back to the question of addiction. Because Nick, what you said I was about. to say oh good well then it's not really. addiction it's just a habit. But what. Carrie said tells me that you are. addicted. Your brain is addicted and. here's how I know. Because. Anna Lembke, one of our country's. foremost experts on addiction, she wrote.

the book Dopamine Nation. She says the. five universal symptoms of withdrawal. from an addictive substance, this is. what happens to addicts when you take. away the drug for for a day. Here are the five, irritability, insomnia, dysphoria, craving, and anxiety. And it sounds like you've got most of. those, which tells me that your brain is. dependent on constant stimulation. Are. you able to read a book? Can you read a. whole book like, you know, an hour at a. time paying attention or is that hard. for you?

I can read a book. I wouldn't say I can. read the whole book, but I can read a. majority of it. He cannot read a whole long time. Absolutely not. He cannot. Okay. So, Ni- Nick, what I'm going to, you know, what I'm what what I'm going. to recommend for you is what I'm just. drawing from what the experts say is, if. this is a dopamine issue, and clearly it. is, then the way to break it is to go a. month without it. You have to go through. detox. It'll the first few days, the. first week will be hard, but then what. you're going to find, and this is what. my students at NYU find, your life opens.

up. You can pay attention. You have more. time in your day. You experience things. So, if you can find a way, the two of. you working together, you know, ideally. you could start it if you can take a. vacation somewhere. If you could send. him to some sort of summer thing for a. week or two or a month, summer camp or. some experience, that really helps. So, make the make the real world. interesting as possible, but. what would really help you is going a. month to let your brain reset itself to. a normal setting. I see I see his face though, Jonathan,

when you say a month. Can you imagine? He can't be without it for an hour. So, the idea of a month feels like. punishment, feels like torture, feels. like how in the world's he going to do. that? He's he's Are you Are you Are you. getting anxiety even hearing this, Nick? Like, you're going to be disconnected. from the world? Disconnected from the. world? Disconnected from your friends. and what that means and and all and all. of that. Nick, do you think you could do that or. is that impossible?

Um, I wouldn't say it's impossible. I. feel like it would take a lot out of me. It would take It would take everything. out of him to do it. That's right. Okay. It would. Okay. Can Can I ask this, Jonathan? Can. I Can I interrupt? Is it like. Is it like a. other addictions where you have to hit. rock bottom or at least reach a place. where you see I mean, in the beginning. Nick says he realized realizes that he's. is an addict and has a problem.

But maybe he doesn't think the problem. is enough. to actually cause him long-term problems. and doesn't understand the consequences. of the long-term problems. So, until you. you actually realize that this is. dangerous to my brain and my mental. health, why why do you need to give it. up? Yeah. That's right. That's the way to think. about it. So, Nick, let me ask you a. question. Do you want someday to to get. married? Do you want to have a. girlfriend and a wife or a spouse? Is.

that something you want? Yeah. Okay. Do you think that a woman would. find appealing a man who is on TikTok. all day long and is not capable paying. attention? No. 100% no. Do you want to have a job someday? Do. you want to earn money and support. yourself, support a family? Uh yeah. And do you think any employer is going. to find it useful to hire someone who. can't focus on what they're supposed to. focus on and is always on multiple. screens and watching videos?

Yeah, no, they don't want that. They don't want that. So, um it is urgent that you restore your. brain. You're still young. The damage is. not permanent yet. But if you do this. until you're 25, then the damage might. be permanent. The brain Your brain is. very flexible still. uh for a few more years. But by 25, the. frontal cortex is kind of done changing. over to the adult pattern. At that. point, it's going to be much harder to. get your attention back. So, start now. What would that What would that mean at. 25 if he doesn't stop.

and what you just said about the brain. Yeah, so think about like learning. languages. You know, we can learn a. language with without an accent before. we're 13 because the what the brain is. doing it's in the child form, it's very. flexible. It can become lots of things. and it can become a native speaker of. Spanish or Russian or Chinese or. anything. But then as you go through. puberty, different parts of the brain. start locking down as it were. They. start assuming the adult pattern and. there's a kind of a myelin sheath, there's a sheath around the neurons that.

kind of makes them more efficient but. less flexible. And so that's going. forward in your brain and the last part. of the brain to lock down is the. prefrontal cortex. That's the area that. does focus, attention, planning. That is. absolutely vital for being an adult. And all over the country, you are not. alone. Half at least half of Americans. are giving that up. They're saying, let's let Tik Tok shape my frontal. cortex so I never have to think. If you. do that till you're 25, I we I can't say. for sure but it sure looks like it's.

going to be permanent. Cuz. between 25 and 26 is when that. prefrontal frontal cortex locks in. That's when you're fully an adult when. the whole brain has been developed after. 25, 26, right? That's right. I mean, it's not a sudden, it's a gradual thing in your early 20s. So the sooner you start the better. But. by 25, it's it's locked into adult. position, yes. What do you think of that? Like when when he's saying like. everything is on our phones, like.

lives. Like my job is on my phone. How I see when I work, how I communicate. with my coaches, how I communicate with. like other students. It's all on our. phones. How we like how we hang out with. each other is online. I because. I think I think what he's asking is how. do we how does he give up the phone when. every single. thing in his life is attached to it. His.

job, his school, his friendships. Yeah. That's right. That's the question. and that's why everyone's trapped. because that's true for everyone. We all got sucked into this because we. we all felt like we had to give our kids. a phone and Snapchat because they say. everyone else has it. I'm left out. And. so what we're trying to do what what my. team and I are trying to do is get. everyone to realize we're trapped. And. Nick, you realize that that you're. trapped. And the way to escape from a. social trap is together. So if you could.

find three other families, three friends. to do this with and I bet you can. You. might think that you don't know three. where the parents would be receptive, the kid would be receptive, but I. guarantee you things are changing fast. this year. You will find them. If you. can do this with a few friends and. instead of just sitting there swiping, you go out and do fun stuff. You go. places with your friends. You. You know, you can go to an amusement. park, go shopping, go to a beach, go. somewhere with your friends. The way we. used to do it. phone? Is that Is that Is that.

That's Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yes. So. by all means talk to your friends. Talking to your friends one at a time on. the phone is great. And so a flip phone, a basic phone, that way you and your mom. can keep in touch, you and your friends. can keep in touch. And now your. computer, I'm not saying go without a. computer. I understand for work, for. school, the computer is essential. But a. computer is not as addictive as a touch. screen. The touch screen is stimulus. response rewards, stimulus response. reward infinite loops. Computer's a. little slower, it's not quite as. addictive. So I'm not asking you to give.

up communication, you can have a flip. phone. I'm not asking you to give up all. sorts of other things on your computer. I'm saying it sounds like you're going. to need to take a break from your. smartphone for a while. Um there's also. a program called Brick you can It's a. little device. You can block almost. every app and just use it for whatever. the few apps you need. So So are ways to. do that, but I would recommend going. cold turkey for a month if you can. And he will feel in the beginning. exactly what addicts feel. when they go cold turkey.

It will be It will be painful. It will. be painful for about a week because of. what's going on in his brain, not just. him being agitated, but what's actually. happening in the brain. Exactly. Exactly. All right, guys. I hope this helps. So guys, thank you so much for. think about. Something to think about. We'll check in later to see what. actually happened. Thank you, Nick. Thank you for being. willing to participate. Thank you. Leah is a single mom to a 13-year-old. daughter, Estella, and she recently did.

a deep dive into her daughter's social. media accounts, and she was shocked by. what she found. Leah, what did you. discover? Thank you both for joining us. here. Thank you. Leah and Estella. so much for providing the space to talk. about really hard things. Yeah. And Jonathan for your research and. expertise to keep our kids safe because. I'm almost through with the book. Um and. I'm mind-blown about everything that. you've said. It's just so tough, and I'm. honestly kicking myself as a mom for not.

checking my daughter's phone sooner. You. know, but there were no red flags. I. mean, she's a great student. She's. involved in school and an athlete. Um. but my eyes were opened up in January. after Christmas break when um I got a. call from the principal at school, and. she said there was a conversation on. Snapchat that happened over holiday. break. And you know, I had no idea these. Snapchat conversations could be so. mean-spirited. And uh I was just. mind-blown to see, you know, when I took.

her phone away and went through some of. the stuff, I couldn't believe that, you. know, people could be so vulgar. And I. when I say people, I mean. kids her age. You know, we're talking. 13-year-olds, 14-year-olds. You know, the profanity. I was blown away at just. just the level of like, you know, hurt. these kids give to one another. And your daughter had a different and. what I what I was read reading from the. producers. uh is that your that Estella had.

a very different persona online than the. persona that you knew. So, Estella, hi, welcome. Hello. Um. did you purposely create or present a. different persona online. than you believe yourself to be? I created the different persona cuz it. was very common for kids like my age, like even some of my closest friends, they have it they have like fake fake.

accounts on social media. just to be like funny and just to like. I did it because I. I wasn't allowed to have Instagram and I. decided to download it. So, it was. easier to catch up on sports and I could. see what else was going on because I. couldn't see it on the social media apps. that I had. Uh-huh. And so, creating this different persona made you. feel what? Creating the different persona,

I kind of felt. like uneasy making it because I knew it. was the wrong thing, but I did it. anyways. And. once I just like. I've had it for a few months and after I. thought I was like, "Okay, she's. probably not going to find out." so I. just felt more comfortable doing it. Yeah. So, when I Yeah, so when I took her. phone, I you know, when I started. taking a deep dive, I did find fake. profiles on Facebook and Instagram and.

um you know, from my perspective it. appeared to be that she was just trying. to have fun or be funny, but what scared. me most about those fake accounts is. that I I. several messages from boys, older boys, messaging her, and these are complete. strangers. And that really like it was a gut punch, you know, I was scared. I was like, I'm. not protecting my daughter enough. You. know, when she's alone in her room and. on her phone, I think she's safe. But.

it's quite the opposite. It's. it's really scary. What's your question for Jonathan? Well, so I took away her phone, you. know, she hasn't had it for a month, and. I noticed a big difference in her. You. know, I noticed um she was paying. attention to as we were take you know, taking drives to go to volleyball. practice, she was paying attention to. her surroundings, and you know, we. watched movies more together, we went to. the library, we're working out together. So, it was nice to do those real life. things again, you know, instead of just. being on our screens, but she's going to. be in high school in the fall.

And so, what are how do I set those. healthy boundaries. for her to kind of ease back into social. media or allow her to be on social media. so that she can feel included in this. new space of you know, new students and. you know, a new school, which I'm sure a. lot of them will be you know, on social. media. Yeah, that's right. Wow, there's so much. in that question. I'll just I'll start. with two points. Um. uh. one is that you you noticed the big. effect of these of these platforms,

which is they take all of your child's. attention. That's the way they're. designed. The reason why these companies. are worth trillions of dollars, we don't. give them any money, it's all because. they drilled into our kids' heads, all. of our kids' attention and sold it. So, when your kids are on social media, they're not present. They're not really. with you. They're gone. And you saw that quite dramatically when. you took the phone away for a month. Second point that I think you made, which is very important, is that a lot. of the worst stuff is happening when. she's alone in her room. That's what I. hear. That's when the really bad stuff.

tends to happen because they feel like. they can talk to anyone. It's it. it's late at night. So, I'll share with you my biggest. regret about my own parenting. I was so. focused on social media, um I didn't. really think about the about the. computer. And this was during COVID, too. You know, they all had to have a. computer. But, here's the policy that I. wish I had had, and I recommend this to. everybody who has young kids especially. No screens in the bedroom ever. No. screens of any kind in the bedroom ever.

Do your homework out in the kitchen or. the living room. Now, at some point you. might have to relax and let them take. the laptop up into the bedroom, um but. if we establish the idea that that that. your kids can if they're on these. platforms, they have to be at least out. in public. They can't be alone in their. bedroom. That's where the worst stuff. happens. Okay, but now onto your. question. What do you do now that she's. entering high school? Of course you feel like she you have to. let her back on because everyone else is. on. Uh but as our parents used to say to us, if everybody else jumped off the bridge, would you jump off the bridge? Um this stuff is so bad for girls.

especially. Social media is so bad for. girls. that I'd like you to consider keeping. her off until 16. And I know that's. going to that's going to really sound. horrible to Estella. Um my daughter is. 15. I don't let her on. She says she's. the only one who doesn't have Snapchat, but she also says that she sees what it. does to the other girls, and she says. that her friends will text her when if. she's if there's something important. So, she's not completely left out.

They will text her because she has a. flip phone. They will text her because. she. No, she has No, no, she does have a. smartphone. She just does not have. social media as far as I know. Okay. I mean, she could be hiding it from me, but it's not on her phone. Okay. that possible? Do you think you could. if you could especially find a few. friends, a few other families who who. would do the same and keep them off. social media, but let them get together. in person a lot? Is Estella is Leanne Estella, is that. possible? I think so.

Estella, what are you thinking? Oh, I think it's possible for that, yeah. Yeah. So, you're going to have a much. better life. You're going to be happier. You're going to have better friends. have the phone. You can have access to. the phone, use of the phone. You can. text your friends. You can be in contact. with your friends, but you are just not. on social media. That's what I'm recommending. I did notice, too, like when she didn't. have her phone like for at least, you. know, 5 or 6 days that she didn't even.

want her phone. So, her withdrawal was only a few days. because earlier we were talking with. Nick and Nick and Carrie and they were. saying that, you know, Nick can't be. without his phone in the shower. So, obviously, uh Jonathan recommended also. going for a month without the phone and. it seems daunting, I think, at first, but how soon did you notice that she. started that the dopamine hits were. eased? I I would say just a few days. I was.

noticing her being more attentive. You. know, when I'd ask her to do something. for me, I didn't have to repeat myself. You know, she was. attentive and and more engaged. present enough to hear it. Yeah. Exactly. Well, you have the book. You've read the. book. You've heard the advice. In reading the book, you know how. dangerous this is, especially to young. girls. And so, now you have a choice as. to how you the both of you will decide. to manage it. And I really hope that it.

works out for both of you. Thank you, Leah and Estella. Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for joining us. Good luck out there. So, Mala is a doctor and mom of three. teenagers. She and her 16-year-old. daughter, Uma, are joining us from. Toronto. Mala and Uma, welcome and tell. us what's going on. Hi. We're so. thankful to be here today. Thank you. both for allowing us to have this.

conversation with you. Um. you know, Oprah, I started watching you. when I was applying to medical school in. uh 1994. Wow. That was a very good year. Yes, that was a good year. But, um. that's really 30 years of absorbing your. wisdom and education, and I just I truly. wanted to thank you for that. Oh. And Dr. Haidt, I was told of your book. uh last year, and I pre-ordered it.

And I have to say, like first of all, it's groundbreaking. Uh absolutely. fascinating to read. But, more than anything, it was so. validating to me um after reading it. just in my own real-world experience. with my three Gen Z teenagers here at. home. You know, the one thing I will say is. that I noticed right away um how. addictive these devices are. You know, as a physician, I'm very conservative. I. like rules. We have a lot of rules in.

this house, as the kids would tell you. But, you know, um and I and I knew one. thing. I knew I wanted to wait as long. as possible before giving my kids a. smartphone. I knew that much. We didn't. have this data then, but I knew that. So, that was in 2018 with my eldest son. So, he was 14 when he got his phone. Second boy was close to 14. And then, Uma, being the youngest, uh was more. like 13. And honestly, since that time, it has. been an uphill battle. Uphill battle every day.

um for the last 5 years or whatever it's. been. And my kids have truly lived like. a a phone-based adolescence, as you. described it. Um conversations at home. would be like, "What are you guys doing? Are you on. your phone? Have you done your homework? Uh are you doing your homework or are. you on your phone? Have you checked in. your phone? We had all those rules. Um but I think. I think the important thing is with. teens when they get older, it is it is. very hard to control things. They will.

find a way. Uh. even as as younger kids, they find a. way. Um anyway, so my concern is is mainly. with my daughter Uma who's here, but. so she's 16 now and has had. uh social media probably for the last. year, year and a half. And what I've. noticed with her is very different from. the boys. The boys uh would always play. video games, but with Uma, what I've. noticed is in the last year or so, just. a change in her attention and her focus.

It's very subtle, uh probably hard to measure, but I think. more in terms of school performance, um test taking, exam taking, um your focus during exams, being able. to finish and complete tests and exams. All of these things I feel have really. have really changed. Did you hear Jonathan earlier. uh Mala say that. that giving a girl. um social media at a young age is like.

giving them a gun, that it affects girls. very differently than it affects boys. And you've read the book, so you. understand that that is true. So what. you're experiencing in real time is. actually a reflection of everything that. Jonathan has done through his research, right? You're You're You're now living. it. Uma, let me ask you, how do you. think it's affecting your mental health? Yeah, I mean, I think my phone is just. it's super addictive. I feel like I'm on. it all the time, I guess because of the.

dopamine hit. Sometimes I'll be on it. and I feel like I can't get off even. though in my mind, like I know I need. to. I feel like it takes away from so many. things in my life that I could be doing, things that can make me smarter, like. reading or doing my homework or studying. or even things that can make me. healthier like exercising or going. outside more. So, it's it's not even. just my mental health, but also my. physical well-being is impacted by my. phone. And yeah, I agree with my mom.

Um I think that it's impacted my focus. I think at school, especially, my. concentration. is worse. I think my attention span is. shorter. Um. and it can impact my sleep, too, which. And can impact. because I'll be on it at night or. sometimes the light will interfere with. like my ability to fall asleep. So, just. all these factors are just. they're just super detrimental, and I'm. observing it not only in myself, but. also in everybody around me just as.

somebody who's grown up like with the. evolution of the phones. Yeah. So, Uma, that that's very what you. say is very very perceptive, that it's. not always about mental health and. anxiety and depression. What you're seeing is actually the. biggest effect of all, which is the. shattering of the ability to attend to. anything. These things are designed to interrupt. you, to call you back on. They push you. to connect to more people than you want. to connect to. And they end up taking 5 hours a day on.

average. The American teenager spends 5. hours a day just on average. So, a lot. are spending a lot more than that. If you had 5 extra hours a day, do you. think you could learn a foreign language. or learn guitar pretty quickly. in 5 hours a day for a year? Definitely. Do you think you could get into great. shape? Do you think you could read all. kinds of books? Do you think you could. uh have all kinds of amazing hobbies? And of course you could. 5 hours a day. is basically all of your time beyond. what you have to do. And so, your.

generation is trapped. Your attention is. being sucked out of you, and it is. making you less intelligent. What I mean. by that is it's not literally lowering. your IQ on an IQ test, but it's lowering your ability to. perform in the world as if you were. smart. So, I teach a course at New York. University called Flourishing. It's 35. students, they're all undergraduates. around 19 years old, and the goal of the. course is to make them stronger, emotionally stronger, smarter, and more.

sociable. And in the smarter section, I say, "We can raise your IQ, your functional. IQ, by 15 points. First, regain control your attention, turn off almost all notifications, move. social media off your phone onto your. computer, and then get rid of it. entirely. If you regain your attention, you are going to perform in this world. as if you are much smarter. And if you. don't do that, if you give all your time. to an interrupting device that's. designed to hook you, it's as though. you're going to live your life as though.

you are a much less intelligent person.". What do you think about that? Yeah, that's fascinating, actually. Um. well, that more question to you, Dr. Haye. That was our question, you know, is there is there evidence to suggest. that social media use directly impacts. intelligence and IQ as measured through. school performance or I don't know how, but that's what we were hoping to find. out today. Yeah, so what I can tell you, you know, and as a doctor, you'll appreciate this,

is that there's a lot of correlational. evidence, there's not yet a lot of. experimental evidence. So, we can say. that from elementary school on, the kids. who are spending a lot of time on. screens are doing worse academically. even after you correct for social class. and all that stuff. So, a lot of. correlations. We can also say there's a correlation in. that test scores in the United States. were going up slowly from the 1970s. through 2012. We were we were doing a. little bit better job educating and. educating our kids. And then it turns. around after 2012. Exactly when all the.

kids get on smartphones, social media, iPads, Chromebooks in school, exactly. when everything gets screen-based, that's when education levels begin going. down, not just in the US, but around the. world. So, we can say humanity is. getting less intelligent since 2012, not. since COVID, since 2012. I can't prove. that it's because of smartphones and. social media, but no one can come up. with another story for why it started in. 2012. I don't know if you were watching in the. beginning of this conversation, but. what is going to happen to those.

2-year-olds? 40% of of of people now with. 2-year-olds, 40% of them, Jonathan was. saying, the new survey shows, are on. iPads at 2 years old. What's going to. happen to They're not even going to be. able to function in in first and second. grade with their brains. That's right. I'm hearing from more and. more uh te- preschool teachers who say. that kids are showing up with language. delays, with with their They're not. ready for school. A lot of them aren't. potty trained yet. So, an iPad is not a.

babysitter. We have used it as a. babysitter because it seems to be. effective, but you know what? Opium and. alcohol would be effective too at. calming your child. We shouldn't be. using them. Um so, yeah, it is We've. That's why we've got to change quickly. We don't have 5 years to change this. We. have to change this year, 2025. We have. to change the way we're raising kids. We. have to give them back uh an exciting, fun childhood in the real world, not on. a screen. Well, thank you, Mala and Uma. Thank you.

so much. And thank you for your. wonderful words at the beginning of. this. All those years I helped raise. you, Mala. There are no frills. Yeah. You really did. Yeah. Thank you so much. Good luck to. you both. I hope you take everything. you've heard here and what you've read. here, and you You're such a beautiful, already smart girl. You want to enhance. that in the world and be able to be. fully present. There's actually nothing. better. So, good luck to you both. Thank. you. Mala and Uma. So, Alicia is a mom of two who says she.

notices a big difference between how. boys and girls use social media, which. is exactly what we were just saying. here. Jonathan, just I I hope you were. listening that for girls it's different, boys it's different. Alicia and her. 13-year-old son, Caleb, and 15-year-old. daughter, Serene, is it Serene or. Sirene? Sirene. Sirene, are joining us from Houston. Hi Alicia, what have you noticed? What have you. noticed? Uh what I've noticed is definitely. harder for my daughter when it comes to.

communication. Girls, um it's so different than boys when. navigating friendships. There was a time. when um her friends, they decided to do. a Tik Tok at school. And typically, her. Instagram account was usually to. showcase like her volleyball and her. track, but this time she was doing a Tik. Tok dance, she probably showed off her. stomach. And I was like, "Why would you. do that?" And so for her, it was, "Well, that's what other girls were doing." And. I'm like, "But that's not you." And so,

it's really hard with navigating, you. know, how do we navigate those. conversations, wanting to fit in? And then having a harder time maybe. saying no to her peer group. Whereas. with my son, um when he was at the. restroom at school and some boys asked. him to record a fight club, he just said no and walked out. So, it. was a lot easier for him to say no. So, with my daughter, I definitely find that. it's harder for her to say no to that. peer group and to really understand, you.

know, some of the I guess the. difficulties that come with social media. and interacting with social. Caleb and Sirene, what do you all think. of how social media is affecting you? Caleb, let's hear from you. Um I think social media affects a lot of. young guys. in a lot of different ways because some. guys like to talk about others, but what I usually use social media for. is sports um clips of highlights and.

really sharing reels and my interest. with my friends but I'm not the type of. person that gossip and be mean to. somebody else on uh social media. And Cyrene, for you? Typically for me, I. would watch like. you know, their. uh videos. um. sports clips. um of course makeup or TikTok dancing. uh things like that. Yeah. So Alicia, what did you want to.

say? Did you have a question? My question is how do parents fairly. balance between the rules and. expectations for their teens when they. are different genders and they respond. differently to similar situations? Well, I think there's no law that says. that you have to give them all the same. platforms and all the same. uh you know, iPads and and uh. smartphones. What I'm advocating for is that we all. adopt some simple rules. No smartphone. before high school, no social media.

before 16. But the threats to your kids are. different and you as as the mother, as. any parent, you have to defend your kids. against the threats that are coming for. them. And so I don't think are your kids. demanding that you know, if you if you. block something for one, you have to. block it for the other. If they're saying that, that's just. something kids say. Kids are really good. at being lawyers and making arguments. about why what you're doing is unfair. But they'll understand. Just from what. that your kids have said already, it's. clear. They understand what's going on.

Well, I don't know if you've read The. Anxious Generation or not. Have you read. this book yet? Alicia? Not yet. Okay. You absolutely have to read The. Anxious Generation because what Jonathan. is trying to do is to get communities. together to agree because if you're. going to quit your phone by yourself, you you are going to feel isolated and. and alone. But if you get together with. other parents, go ahead, Jonathan. Oh, yeah. That's the key. When we try to. do this alone as one family, then yeah,

your kids are going to feel isolated. Now, that still might be the best for. them. That's the decision that I've made. for my daughter, and it's very hard. Um. but if you can do this with just a. couple other families, it's a lot. easier. Focus on giving your kids a. great childhood with lots of fun. exciting things in the real world. Don't. just focus on the screens, but I know. the screens are where we're all fighting. about now. Thank you, Alicia. Thank you, Caleb and. Serene. Thank you so much. Thank you. all. Thank you all. Beautiful family. So, Jonathan, here we are. What can. parents do right now to help their.

children escape what you referred to as. the smartphone trap? So, let me give you a just a couple of. suggestions. Um. So, one. one helpful suggestion I I um. is to say it's not screens per se. It's. not that you have to keep your kid away. from every screen. Keep in mind that. stories are good things. Humans are a. storytelling species. We've always told. stories around the campfire. So, if you. want to watch a movie, a 90-minute movie.

with your child, or let a couple of kids. watch a movie together, that's great. It's social. It's a story. It goes on a. long time. But fragmenting time, iPad time, that's. not a story. That's not doesn't build. concentration. That builds distraction. And so, it's really the the private. touchscreen and iPad or an iPhone in a. in a kid's hand, it's constant. distraction and interruption. So, that. should be kept to a minimum. I would say. don't even give them their own one until. high school, really.

You know, you can let them watch use. your iPad on a long car trip, but don't. give them their own private iPad or. iPhone until they are in high school. You can give them a flip phone earlier. or a basic phone watch. So, I'm not. saying remove all screens from life. You're going to let your kids watch TV. sometimes. The TV is much better than an. iPad or an iPhone. Um the other important thing I would. want to leave everyone with with is. we've talked about this a lot in this. session. How important it is to find other. families or community or church group or.

anything to do this with because what. our kids fear most? They don't fear. getting cancer, they don't fear getting. brain damage, they fear being isolated. They fear being left out, they fear. being made fun of. And so when they feel. alone, they panic. And so I don't I'm. not saying go out there and tell your. kid, I'm taking away your phone and your. social media account now and you're. going to disappear from so I'm not. saying do that. But if you can find a. few other families that will do that, this is going to be happening all it is.

happening all over the world now. This. is the year 2024-2025. This is when the. world is waking up to the fact that we. cannot raise children on touch screens. It is it is damaging the brain. development. So we've got to stop and if. we do it together, we can actually do. it. Ah, thank you, Jonathan. Jonathan and I. are going to be talking again in a few. months, so keep an eye out for that. We'll have an announcement we're excited. to share with you and all who follow the. his work. So thank you to our parents. and teens and Carrie and Nick and Alicia.

and Cyrene and Caleb and Lianne and. Estella and Mala and Houma for sharing. your honest experiences with us here. The Anxious Generation is available now. anywhere where books are sold. It. continues to be a best seller because. parents need this information and are. opening up to a new way of being with. their children after recognizing that. what Jonathan says in this book is so.

powerful and effective. So if you're. wondering, what do I do and how do we. solve it and oh my god, this is taking. over our family, this is your answer. See you all next week. Go well. everybody. You can subscribe to the Over Podcast on. YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll. see you next week. Thanks everybody.