Oprah and Jonathan Haidt on How Kids Can Choose Fun and Freedom in a Screen Filled World

Hi everybody and welcome to the Oprah. podcast. I just want to say thank you. for taking the time to be with us. because we're talking about a lot of. good things here that I sincerely hope. can enhance your own life. Many of you. have either bought or maybe heard of. Jonathan Height's mega best-selling. book, The Anxious Generation. And if you. haven't heard, uh, then you're late to. the party because this is a book that. all parents are using to help them.

navigate. the firestorms going on in their homes. about smartphones and social media for. their children. On this episode, I'm. talking with social psychologist and. number one New York Times bestselling. author Jonathan Height, who offers. solutions and hope for parents [music]. and teens who are struggling with the. negative impact of social media and. smartphones. [music]. I am incredibly optimistic that we are. going to roll this back. The phone based. childhood only arrived 12 years ago. We.

can get rid of it and I think we're. going to. We're joined by Katherine. Price, an award-winning science. journalist and author of several. best-selling books, including How to. Break Up with Your Phone and The Power. of Fun. I've heard from young people who say. that their entire childhoods were stolen. from them, that they basically feel like. they have no memories of their [music]. teenage years because they spent all of. their time on their phones. We'll hear from teens who've come up. with their own practical and creative. ideas to avoid falling into the. smartphone trap. [music] and I was in my.

bed watching Tik Tok for 8 to 10 hours. every day. So I reached a breaking point. and I powered off my smartphone and I. put it in a box in my parents' room. So one of the things that Jonathan. Height says in the ancient generation is. that social media has literally rewired. childhood as we know it. and he's back. on this podcast this time with a big. announcement about his next book.

Welcome Jonathan Height and your new. co-author uh science writer Katherine. Price. So tell us the news Jonathan. Well the news is uh that there will be a. children's version of the anxious. generation. kept asking me. parents kept saying is there something I. can give to my my my fourth grader my. fifth grader she wants a phone. is there. something I can give her? Um, and so we. had the idea to write um a version of it. that would be appropriate for 9 10 11.

year olds. Uh, but I'm a professor. I'm. not good at writing for elementary. school students. And so I was already. working with Katherine Price who wrote. How to Break Up With Your Phone. Yes. And who is an amazing public speaker. And it just turned out Katherine. volunteered for the job. And she is. amazing at writing for children. And so, Katherine, how does this book differ. from The Anxious Generation in that it. is actually speaking to the kids. themselves? Yeah. So, The Anxious.

Generation, as we all know, did a. wonderful job of making the world wake. up to the issue of what's happening to. our children and what has happened to. Gen Z, the young adults whose childhoods. were destroyed and stolen from them by. phones. And right now, we have the. opportunity to speak directly to the. younger generation. So the anxious. generation is a call to action for. people I would say teenagers on up to do. things to change the experience for our. young people, our kids, but the amazing. generation, our new book is actually. speaking to the kids directly. So it's a.

complimentary approach so that everyone. can be on the same page and take action. together. It's incredibly empowering and. exciting. And Katherine, I hear you're act you're. you're you're consulting with members of. Gen Z uh for this project. And what are. you hearing from them? Yeah, I think it's easy to think that. Gen Z doesn't understand what's happened. to them, but they do. And John has heard. this from countless people in Gen Z, and. I have as well through How to Break Up. with Your Phone. They know what's. happened to them. They don't like it,

and they wish it hadn't happened to. them. And so, we had the idea that. instead of just having it be the sort of. top- down approach, you know, I don't. know if you can tell that John and I are. actually not teenagers. So, we realized. teenagers and kids don't want to be. lectured to by adults. it would be much. better to have the voices of people. closer to their age speaking directly to. them. And so we've reached out to Gen Z. leaders and then also young people. themselves who are just interested in. sharing feedback and we're asking them. questions like what do you wish that you.

could have told your younger self and. what advice do you have for the next. generation so that they don't make the. same mistakes that you made? And their. insights and their anecdotes have been. incredibly powerful and it's thrilling. to get to put them in the book. Well, give us an example. I've heard from young people who say. that their entire childhoods were stolen. from them. That they basically feel like. they have no memories of their teenage. years because they spent all of their. time on their phones. You know, young. people are expressing this deep sense of. regret for all the skills they didn't. develop and the relationships they.

didn't have and the experiences they. missed out on because they were their. noses were stuck in their phones. And so. it's actually really exciting to then. hear from some of the young people who. have realized that and who have changed. their ways to hear that they actually. have taken back their own lives and they. start to experience life in the way that. we'd want all of us to experience life. having experiences doing things. together. So on the one hand it's very. depressing to hear how much young people. feel has been stolen from them but it's. also really exciting to realize that we.

can use those insights to create a. better future for the next generation. I. find it really interesting because if. you're a kid who's 13 years old, you're. addicted to your phone and you. you're not at a point where you even. realize what you're missing out on. because you're addicted to your phone. because you've had the phone since you. were 10 or since you were 11 and you've. just had the phone. So, you never. played, you never had those experiences. Yeah. But but actually they are aware of.

what they're missing because they've. seen movie. Well, they've seen movies. from the 1970s, '8s, and '90s. They've. seen they know what their parents'. childhood and their grandparents'. childhood was like. They're nostalgic. for the childhood of the 1980s and '90s. when kids did get to go out and play. So, they know that they missed it. They've seen it in movies and they. lamented. It's painful. And in the book, uh, Katherine, you point out that many. tech executives don't let their own kids. have smartphones. So, why should we, the.

public, be paying attention to this? I. think that's so interesting. Well, it's really strange if you think. about it. You know, like Thomas Edison. didn't tell his own kids presumably not. to use a light bulb. But here you have. some of the major tech executives saying. in public that they don't let their own. children use their products. Like the. CEO of Tik Tok saying he doesn't let his. kids on Tik Tok. Mark Zuckerberg saying. to Fox News that he he doesn't want his. kids to be sitting in front of a TV or a. computer for long periods of time. Steve. Jobs was famously restrictive about tech. use. A lot of these executives send.

their kids to Montasauri or Waldorf. schools that have restrictions on. technology. So I think those are the. people who know their products the best. because they make them. They know the. things that John and I talk about, you. know, like. girls who use. social media heavily are are much more. likely to be depressed. You know, they. know that there's a huge problem with. sexual predation on these platforms. They know that young men who game a lot. that something like 7% of them are at. risk of actual addiction. They know. these things. They're protecting their. own children. So, I think that we as.

adults and parents need to look to them. and actually follow their lead. And our. kids need to know that, too. I think. that's very important is that we can't. just talk down to our kids. We have to. help our own children understand how. they're being taken advantage of. Yeah. by technology wizards who basically want. to, as John has said, suck their. attention and their energy out of them. so that they can make more money off of. our children's lives. Yeah. I think it's. so important because I know that so many. of you parents who are listening and.

watching to us now, you just get into. battles about it. You just have. arguments about it and it has turned. into this uh area of friction in the. home. And I think on our last podcast uh. with Jonathan, there was a young boy uh. Nick who's 17 years old, uses it in the. shower and can't walk 20 ft without. being on the phone, his mother said. And. yet when you started to explain what is. happening to you in the brain that.

you're being sucked in and to uh the. young woman Uma who was on that past. show when you started talking about. you're actually less intelligent and as. less able to function in the world I. think explaining it in a way that kids. can see for themselves the disadvantage. is more certainly more helpful than just. arguing about it. Mhm. What did you say, Jonathan? Yeah. Oh, no. That's right. So, you know what? I'll I'll say a word about dopamine,

which is the key the key idea here. And. then actually, I'd love Katherine to. explain how she's how we're explain. she's doing the main writing. How how. we're explaining these scientific. concepts to kids in multiple ways. Okay. So the key thing to keep your eye on. here is a neurotransmitter in the brain. called dopamine which we get a little. pulse of it whenever we get whenever we. do something which is good for us in. terms of like biological like we get. food or sex or or even companionship. We. get a little bit of dopamine that tells.

us ooh that was good do it again. Ooh. that was good. Do it again. And so if. you work for something and then you get. that that's great. That's what you want. for your child to learn that work pays. off. But what they did in Silicon Valley was. they figured out how to hack the system. How can we give kids a little hit of. dopamine without them doing anything. hard? Like, oh, just swipe. Oh, something's entertaining. Swipe. Oh, somebody liked your post. So, what. they've done is they figured out how to. tap into our kids reward systems, give.

them lots of quick little hits of. dopamine, which makes them all addicted, or the great majority of our kids are. literally addicted. It's as though they. passed out candy that was laced with. cocaine. The kids took it. It was sweet. It made them feel really good. And then. they get really upset when you take the. candy away because they are literally. addicted. That is what has happened at a. global scale. And and so so the creators of these. media platforms, they are specifically.

going for the dopamine hit. Is that what. you're saying? Yes. That's right. That's right. For. girls, they do it through social media. For girls they do it with social rewards. and for boys they do it especially with. video games and pornography and gambling. and vaping and well vaping is separate. but the point is the addiction is really. devastating for the boys and the social. media I think is more devastating for. the girls. Katherine, how are you. explaining it in the book? Go ahead Katherine, what do you want to. say? Yeah, so I think one of the things that. John and I realized early on and I know. this from How to Break Up with Your. Phone as well is you don't want to come.

at this from a from a position of. restriction only. You don't want to just. focus on the bad stuff. There is plenty. of bad stuff to focus on. We could talk. for a long time about that, but John and. I really wanted to give kids and their. parents a positive way forward and to. frame this as a choice. If you truly. believe that if young people and if kids. really understood what was being done to. them and also how good life can be, they. actually wouldn't choose this path for. themselves. So, we decided to use this. metaphor in the book that's two paths. that basically kids of our age range,

which is roughly fourth to eighth grade. in the book. It includes both kids who. don't have smartphones and social media. yet and kids who have started to use. social media and smartphones. And we. framed it as this choice of two paths. On the one hand, you have the path of. the smartphone as we're calling it, which is shorthand basically for a life. that's dominated by screens, not just. smartphones, but spending lots of time. on all sorts of screens instead of. engaging in real life. And the other. choice is the path of real life. adventure as we're calling it where it's. not that you're never going to get a. smartphone. It's not that you're never. going to use technology. We're not we're.

not saying that we're never going to do. that, but instead you focus on real life. adventures and real life relationships. and prioritizing real life over a life. lived on a screen. And what we really. want to get across to kids is that it's. not a matter of saying no to the phone. per se. It's about saying yes to real. life. And that's exciting and that's fun. and it's available to them. Okay, great. We wanted to talk to. parents and teens around the country to. hear their thoughts. And Lindsay and. Pete are the parents of a fifth grade. girl and a seventh grade boy. They are.

joining us from Concord, Massachusetts. And I understand you've decided to give. phones to your kids when they turn 13. Is that correct? That's correct. Yeah. But but you have some concerns. Lindsay, let's start with you. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to our conversation, Lindsay. And. thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. In my life, I have, you know, we have a 10-year-old daughter and we. already see a lot of her friends who. have iPads and we already see the, you. know, mean girl behavior and the social. pressure there um building and so that.

is that's concerning. And our son is. he'll be 13 in a month and we are. planning on getting him a phone. He's. expressed feeling like he doesn't really. fit in. He feels left out. All his. friends have phones. He's the only one. that doesn't. So, it's sort of causing. more stress now in the house because of. this feeling of him feeling left out and. not fitting in. We want him to we want. him to fit in. So, we're going to give. him this phone because we feel like it. will hopefully be okay, but we have some. concerns around that. So, is there a way. to set limits around the phone and not. cause this addiction?

I'll just start um by saying first, does. your son have a flip phone or a basic. phone now or does he have nothing? No, he has nothing. They they both have. um watches, Apple watches. Okay. Well, I would suggest that you as. that if he's still in middle school, don't give him a smartphone. Um, give. him a better basic phone. There's the. light phone, the Gab phone. There are a. lot of phones that have some functions. It's fine for your kid to be texting. with his friends. It's not fine for. strangers to be interacting with your. son over Snapchat or Instagram or Tik.

Tok. That is not fine. And uh so yeah, so I don't don't just assume that you. have to go right to a smartphone in. middle school. Katherine, what would you say? I think it's a you're in a difficult. position and I think any parent. listening to this conversation can. empathize with you. So, I just want to. say that straight up. I'd also say that. I think that as parents, we do need to. trust our instincts about this that if. something feels like it's not right for. our kids, you're probably right. And in. the case of a smartphone, it's the.

gateway drug to the entire internet. I. always say to people if you're thinking. about getting your kid a smartphone, you. should ask yourself, are you ready for. your kid to have access to the entire. internet? And are you ready for the. entire internet to have access to your. child? And so, personally, I would I. would encourage you to revisit the. decision to give your child a phone and. to see if there's some alternative like. John was just saying, is there a way to. give your son a smartphone alternative. instead of a full-fledged smartphone? And I also would say that I totally hear. you on the fear of our kids feeling left.

out if they don't have phones and social. media, smartphones and social media. And. in reality at the moment, they probably. will be a bit more left out if they. don't have social media because so many. other kids have it. So that is real. We. have to acknowledge that. But I think. what a lot of adults need to think more. about, myself included, and you know, everyone I know, is we're focused so. much on what our kids are going to miss. out if they don't have smartphones, but. we need to be thinking more about what. they're going to miss out on if we do. give them smartphones. And I mean that. both in the sense of the immediate. experiences and skills and relationships.

that they won't have and they won't. develop in the near term if they're. constantly on their phone, like John. calls phones experience blockers, which. I think is a fantastic way to talk about. them. But if you also think about the. world our kids are growing up in, one of. the most poignant things I've heard from. people in Gen Z is they don't feel like. that path of real life adventure I was. talking about exists for them. They. don't feel like they have that option. because all of their peers are on phones. all the time and they feel deeply sad. about it. That's why they're nostalgic.

for the movies John was talking about. It's why you see so many young people. who weren't alive in the '90s wearing. Friends T-shirts. They're nostalgic for. a time they didn't know. They didn't. have it. So to me, that's really a call. to action for parents and including. myself to say even though it's so hard, we need to be strong. We need to join. together and do what we know in our. hearts is right for our children and say. no to these things until they're old. enough to handle them so that we create. a moment now for our kids and we give. them a life in the future.

People get emotional. It's really your. struggle. I I I think I think what. you're saying, Katherine, is so. important. And I could see and hear in. Lindsay's voice your own concern and. your own questions about it. But you're. going to override that. Override that because you want to make. everything okay and want to have peace. in the family. I get that. But Pete, I. understand you work in tech and you have. also seen for with your own eyes.

experience the detrimental side of what. it can do and what have you seen and how. do you plan to keep your kids safe from. those negative influences? Yeah, absolutely. Um, I mean, on the. tech side, a little more exposed to sort. of the addictive nature by design of how. people are making money off of these. things. And even as adults, we even. people in the tech industry that. understand how these algorithms work. struggle to control themselves. And if.

you know, adults who know everything. that's going on can't manage it, I don't. think we can really expect developing. pre-teens and teens to be able to do it. And just, you know, building on what. what Lindsay said, you know, we're. planning for a phone, but no social. media, no apps, parental controls around. those things because there are dangers. out there. I don't work directly in it, but I work with colleagues in online. safety, who deal with digital crimes. I've had personal experiences with. people I know who've had their children. groomed unsuccessfully, fortunately, through social media. So, these things.

are scary, right? And we're aware of. them. Um, but then like Lindsay said, it's it's a balance, right? We live in. this digital world. Phones have a lot of. good things. We do work on them. Um, you. know, we don't want to raise an outcast. lite, right? So, how do we find a good. balance? Um, you know, we try and model good. hygiene in our own behavior, you know, being at the dinner table or a meal and. not having devices there and things like. that. So hopefully, you know, we can. help model behaviors to learn how, you.

know, to use these devices for good and. in healthy ways without getting sucked. into, you know, some of the negative. things that are out there. So, one of. the things that I've come across in tech. and Jonathan, I'd love your your take on. anybody's take on this is with the. emergence of generative AI and now that. coming into the social media space, how. do we think about that as yet another. thing to be uh anxious about for our. kids and and interacting with? Yeah. No, thank you for that, Pete. AI is is going.

to be the biggest technological change. in human history most likely from what I. from what I read and what I hear. And I. think it's going to affect our kids in. two ways. The most immediate effect is. that all the addictive parts of the. technology are going to get a lot. better. The video games are going to be. even better at hooking your sons and. keeping them there. uh the social media. is going to be even better at sending. your daughters and your sons whatever it. is that'll keep them going. So all the. current problems are going to get a lot. worse as AI comes in. Um generative AI.

is going to mean that we're going to be. flooded by uh videos of people of you. know your your child might be in a video. and it might be her own voice and she. might be naked and she had nothing to do. with it. Um it's going to give everybody. the ability to make a movie of anyone. doing anything and saying anything in. their voice. So that's really scary. The other scary. the other major problem um is that we're. already seeing um sites like Character. AI making AI friends for us.

So our kids got suddenly very lonely in. 2012. That's when all the loneliness. graphs go up. As soon as they move their. social life from talking to their. friends in person or on the telephone to. swiping and posting and commenting, which is not real connection, that's. when they got lonely. So, what's the. cure for the fact that the technology. has made our kids so lonely? Oh, I guess. the cure is artificial friends who will. talk to your child and be very. comforting and always there to listen. I. can't think of a better way to stunt. human development than to surround our.

kids with the perfect friends when they. hit teen years. It's going to be the. perfect boyfriend or girlfriend. They. will never be able to actually flirt. with or or or, you know, or uh interest. or marry um another person because they. won't be ready for it. So, we've we've. got to understand AI is super powerful. tools that we adults can use to make. hard tasks easy, but we don't want to. make life easy for our kids. We don't. want to remove the awkwardness of.

flirting, of approaching a girl or a. boy. We we want them to experience that. awkwardness thousands of times and. they'll get over it and then they'll be. actually good at dealing with people. So, lots of food for thought, but I I I. I heard you say you're not planning on. getting a smartphone. Is that what. you're saying? You are getting a. smartphone, but they're not going to be. exposed to social media. That's the plan. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Well, thank you, Pete and. Lindsay. Thank you so much. Have you. read The Ancient Generation? Have you.

read it? Have you Have you Do you have. the book? Okay. Fantastic. We do. And I had the pleasure of seeing. Jonathan speak through my work as well. So, great work. Thank you for. Thank you. Thank you both for being. here. Good luck. Good luck. Thank you so much. Thank you. Last year in the Oprah Daily Life class. I hosted with Jonathan, we met the. Surell family who at the time did not. allow their children to have smartphones. or social media. Michael, Natalie, and. their 14-year-old son, Mike. Join us now. from Paul Quinn College in Dallas, where.

Michael is president. Michael, have you. had any second thoughts about your. decision? None. No second thoughts. No second thoughts. You know, Mike, I often think of you. I. I don't know. I was somewhere recently. I was saying, I wonder if that if that. young boy, Mike, if he ever talked his. dad into getting the phone. And how is. he doing in the world? How are you doing. in the world, Mike? I'm doing well. I'm doing pretty well. I. have not convinced him yet, uh, at all,

actually, but I'm working on it. I got. some more time. So, I'm working on it. Got some more time. Got some more time. Uh, Natalie, you feel like giving a. child access to social media. You said. this uh when we talked last year is like. giving them fireworks. How so? Well, our our girl is now 10. She just. turned 10. And I couldn't agree more. with what Lindsay said. The kind of. friend group click meanness began way. earlier than I ever would have. anticipated. And I just cannot imagine.

adding social media on top of what's. already happening in her fourth grade. class. And she has a great class, great. school, all that. But it's the dynamics. and a lot of it is age appropriate and. normal. But when you introduce social. media on top of that, I can't even I I. want I want zero part of that. And I'm. also just not ready to look at the top. of the heads of my children all the. time. I'm not ready for that. I'm not.

ready to have them just walk around like. this all the time. I'd much rather them. be head up, look around, right? How are. these children ever going to learn how. to read a room if they're not looking. the room? That's how we learn. That's. how we learn social cues. That's how we. pick up on on what it means to have EQ. Look at the room. Did you notice that. that person got uncomfortable? Did you. see what was happening after you said. this? Did you notice? Well, no. your. head is down. So, and the only thing.

I'll say is that, you know, a delay is. not a denial. We we we we're delaying. with real purpose and intent and that is. to ensure a little bit of maturity and. growth and just kind of postpone things. for a little while. We have them for. such a short period of time. Yes. So, we don't want them in the bubble. So, do not want. So, does Mike have a flip phone or any. phone or no phone? No, he he doesn't. have any phone. He has periodic ability.

to use my phone when he's getting his. haircut or when um you know with. oversight and it listen the the reality. of it is and I just want to touch on. something that was brought up about the. AI piece. Yes, that is terrifying. One of the things. that we've discussed in board meetings. is about the young man who killed. himself. Yes. Because he fell in love with an AI. chatbot. And the AI chatbot completely.

transformed him from a normal kid to. something that his mother was someone. that his mother was really struggling to. connect with. And the young man fell so. deeply in love that when the chatbot. said that she thinks he should kill. himself. so that they could be together. always. He actually killed himself. And so he was a 14 year old boy. And. there's no way at 14 that you have the.

capacity to regulate yourself. And the. the AI bot becoming a predator. on top of all of the other predators. that exist in social media and on. phones. I mean, I just don't see the. need to allow other people to spend more. time raising my children than I do. And. that. and as and and there at the university, you have yourself seen the.

manifestation of what this has done, right? Absolutely. the need for students to get social. stamps of approval. are greater online than they actually. are in person. I I host office hours in. the dorm on Monday nights. And it's. interesting to see how the students. conduct themselves. If I really want to. disrupt their usage of the phones, I. have to order pizza. and you know they.

have to put the phones down to eat and. that's when we have these really. wonderful conversations. Um students. still want to connect but they've been. led to believe that the best place for. them to connect is online by people who. materially benefit from them connecting. online. It's really an insidious. uh environment that they are living in. now, especially considering that the. tech, you know, titans don't want their. own children to do this, but somehow.

it's okay for everyone else's children. to do. So, I just think that it's wrong. So, so, so I I'm just curious is how you. all have helped Mike uh navigate the. space of all my friends have it, but I. don't have it. I'm going to say this. what we and I. think it was Lindsay that mentioned this. earlier. It's okay for kids not to have. access to everything. You're not always. going to be invited everywhere. You're. not always going to be It's okay.

That's I think fear of missing out has. translated from kids to their parents. and parents are so anxious themselves. about their kid being isolated and you. know not included. And we've said to. Mike to answer your question directly. that you know son it's okay if you're. not everywhere all the time at every. function at every that's okay. You don't have any fear of of as as was. expressed prior with other parents here.

of of him not being you know adjusted or. being the outcast or being ostracized by. other kids. You know zero. our kid's really popular right? I mean, he doesn't have a smartphone, but you. walk around his campus with him, everyone knows him. You walk around to. events to his games, everyone knows him. I I have watched this from a distance. If this is what being a social outcast.

looks like, maybe we all should be. social outcasts. Okay. All right. Do you agree, Mike? How. you doing? I agree with that one. You do? You agree that. you agree that you're popular. What do you want to say, Jonathan and. Katherine, to this? I mean, these. parents, I love these parents. These. parents are, you know, steadfast. They. are not afraid of their kids being upset. with them. They have not at all are they.

afraid of their kids being upset with. them and have created this this. opportunity for their children to still. engage in other ways. That's right. So, I want to say. something to to Natalie first. Uh. because Natalie, when you and I met with. with Oprah last spring, my wife and my. sister were were in the audience, and my. wife was so moved by what you said. You. said something like, "I love you too. much to insist that you like me, that. you were willing to to be the heavy. You.

were willing to uh endure his his. [laughter] wrath and resentment because. in the long run, uh it's going to be so. much better for him. And in the long. run, he's probably going to love you. more. he'll be able to love more. And. that really influenced my wife who was. like crying while you were while you. were speaking and it's it's actually. encouraged her to have a lot more more. background. I'm usually the softy with. our daughter, but my wife is like, "No, we got to hold firm." So, I want to. thank you for that. Of course. And that I think that's true. I think children appreciate boundaries,

especially when they see. are put in place out of love. There's no. punishment here. He's a great kid and we. love him too much to worry about whether. or not he's going to like me. I I can't. I this is really this is this is a big. responsibility. We take it seriously. So, but thank you for that. I appreciate. it. And what I said was very heartfelt. and I I I mean it even more right now. It's very true. I love you too much to worry about if. you're going to like me. Okay. And and I just want to say one thing to. um to to Mike, which is what a lot of us.

are noticing is that the kids who the. kids who are raised without smartphones, they're really present. There's a. coolness, there's a strength, there. they're like real people. And the kids. who are always on their phones are like. non-playable characters on a video game. And so even though you feel excluded, you're being excluded from a world of. losers, frankly. And in the long run, you are going to be cool because you're. going to actually be able to be present. You're going to be a lot more attracted. to girls. I'll tell you that. He's going.

to be able to look them in the eye. conversation and connect. That's right. Yeah. Katherine, what would you add? I won't comment on your future romantic. prospects. Um, but I would say that like. you [laughter]. you guys are clearly amazing, right? Like these are the stories we're trying. to amplify in the Amazing Generation. And Mike, I'm going to say I know you're. pushing back on your parents right now. But if you pretend they're not here. right now, I don't know. I kind of get. the sense that you kind of know you're. amazing and that this is a cool thing. about you. And I was just wondering if.

you for one second could pretend your. parents were not sitting next to you or. maybe it's okay. But can you tell us. something you feel like you have gained. or something that like makes you unique. because you don't have a phone that. actually is positive? Cuz I'm getting. that sense from you that there are many. of those things you're aware of. Oh well, I guess it's kind of like I. kind of get to do my own thing at times. Like when my friends are like, "Hey, are. you going to this? Hey, are you doing. this? Hey, are you there?" I'm like, "No, I'm just I'm hanging out with my. family. I'm doing my own thing. I'm. playing basketball." Like there's parts. about me that they just don't know. And. I think that might be part of why think.

that might be part of it. Yeah, it's kind of a superpower, I. guess, is what I'm saying. And I think. that's just so amazing. So, yeah, I. think it's absolutely wonderful that. that you all are doing that. And um I. know it can be hard, but like I think. what John was getting at is a lot of the. young people we speak to in Gen Z, they. say, "Wow, I just feel like I'm not an. interesting person." They actually. themselves say, "I feel like I am boring. because all I did was watch videos of. other people on my phone." And I think. Mike, what you are is an example of a. young person who is not boring. specifically because you're not spending.

all that time on your phone. I think this is the story. This is a. model model story. Sorell family. Applause to you. Applause to all of you. And Mike, I'm glad you're I'm so happy. to know that you're popular. Popular. So happy to know that. All. right. Good to catch up with you all. Thank you so much. Right there. Thank you. Okay. And he's a handsome boy, too. My god. I. I Yeah, I predict that the girls are.

going to be all over him because he's. going to be like what? One of the few. who knows how to actually have a. conversation and connect. Logan is a. 19-year-old who made a very bold. decision four years ago. She joins us. now from the campus of Oberlin College. in Ohio. Hi, Logan. Tell us what. happened. Hi. Hi. Um, yeah, I'm so happy to be here. Uh, I got a smartphone when I was 10. years old. Um, and I watched the next 5. years fly by. Um, you know, everything.

that everyone's already said really. resonated with me. Social media has. rewired childhood. I, you know, I have. few recollections of this period because. I was, you know, so involved in this. oversaturated media. Um, you know, the. the mean girl setting was very. prevalent, um, at a much younger age. Um, and it got to a point during COVID. where I finally had the time I I so. desired after school and just throughout. throughout this period uh to to just be. with my technology. Um, and I did that.

for 8 months. I you know sat in my bed. and and tried not to let my phone fall. on my face and uh I uh came to a point. where I started to see content of people. online actually doing things with their. co time. I mean, for the financially. comfortable, co was a time where you. could pick up a book that you'd thrown. down. You could make bread. You could go. on runs. And I was in my bed watching. Tik Tok for 8 to 10 hours every day. So, I reached a breaking point and I powered. off my smartphone and I put it in a box.

in my parents room. And my motivation. there was that in the middle of the. night when I really craved the. smartphone, I wouldn't want to wake. them. So, I wouldn't go I wouldn't go. get it. And I mean almost immediately. something flipped in my brain. Things. really started to change for me and I. never went and got the smartphone back. Um and so that was that was four and a. half years ago. And then in the past. four years you've. something did actually flip in your. brain. Correct, Katherine? Yeah. Something actually did. actually flip in her brain. The dopamine.

hits were no longer there. That's what. happened, right? I think u exactly what you're saying is. correct. Do you actually notice that. your brain went through a period of. withdrawal from not getting the constant. dopamine stimulation that's provided by. smartphones and short form content on. platforms like Tik Tok? And then once. you went through that, right, there's a. valley. There's going to be a low point. and adults go through that too when they. start to spend less time on their. phones. But if you can make it through. that valley, you start to see exactly. what you're describing, which is that. there's this beautiful wonderful world. on the other side with all of these. things to do and all these people to.

spend time with. And it's so much better. than, as you were saying, just lying in. bed staring at Tik Tok for 10 hours at a. time. And how did your life change since. giving up your smartphone? Yeah. I came out of that period, I mean, healthier, happier, more confident, more. social um and and more intellectual. I. mean, I started to read for the first. time in years. Uh I finally got back. that childhood, you know, rigor to read. that that I had lost for so long. Wow. And so now I hear hear you've. started a movement to encourage other.

teens to do the same to give up their. dependence on their smartphones. Tell us. about that. So when I initially went phoneless um I. was kind of on my own doing it and and. it was very difficult. I uh it it was it. was like a transitional period. I kind. of had to rework my friendships, get. people to email me. Um and uh then that. was hard. But but one day I met a girl. who also she had a flip phone and um you. know we quickly realized that having. someone else to do it with was so. powerful. You know even just hearing. from from some of the parents today I.

think when you try and go at it alone. it's totally possible you can do it but. it's harder. Community is so important. during this time. So. we quickly realized that if we could get. a group together of likeminded teenagers. students who were trying to do the same. thing not only would our success rate be. higher but um it would just be an easier. transition for us. So in 2021 we started. the lite club a group for uh you know. other students who wanted to use their. phone less wanted to get a flip phone. whatever it was we accepted everyone. from whatever stage they were they were.

at um in their transition. Um and the. club has been going on since then uh uh. this summer in 2024 uh we turned the. club into a nonprofit so that we could. reach more people nationwide um and and. and help more young people help others. Um, you know, I think we're we're really. big on autonomy. We're not big on. preaching and uh, you know, the the the. most amazing thing is is is we've built. this nonprofit, this, you know, sort of. youth organization that that has.

students around the country. participating. We've done it all off of. social media. Um, and it's possible and. it's flourishing. Um, yeah. Katherine, what do you want to say to. Logan? Logan, bravo. Yeah, I want to say that Logan, this is. why we're already in touch about. including the story of the Lite Club in. John and my book, The Amazing. Generation, because it's so. inspirational, right? Like anyone. listening, like this is what could be. Like Logan's an example of a young. person who woke up and saw the light and. made change and also realized it's.

easier and it's most importantly more. fun when you do it with other people. So. yeah, I I applaud everything you're. doing and I cannot wait to help get more. people to become Leites in the way that. you describe that. Fantastic. I'd like to I'd like to just add my my. kids go to Brooklyn Tech High School. here in in New York and I know that uh. that there was a chapter of the LED club. at at Brooklyn Tech. I couldn't get my. daughter to join it, but at least I feel. somewhat connected to it um from the. fact that it is it is local for us. And.

I think one thing that Katherine and I. are so thrilled by is if this is such a. big problem, childhood has been rewired. We can't to change this. We need. everybody. We need the adults, the. parents, the congress people, the. doctors, the teachers, the administr. We. need everybody. But if the kids are. silent and it's just the adults are. saying, "Oh, we we got to save the. kids." That's not so compelling to the. kids. But when you have examples popping.

up all over the country, if you go to. anxiousgeneration.com, we have a link to lots of uh of aligned. organizations, including a bunch of. other ones that are started by Gen Z. So. to see members of your generation. stepping up and saying, "No, this is bad. for us. We no matter how hard it is, we're finding the guts and and the. discipline. We're we're going to we're. going to unplug and we're going to. rembrace life and childhood." So, thank. you. We're we're we're just so thrilled.

to see the example of of your group and. the litclub.org if anyone is curious. about it online. Thank you so much, Logan. Bravo. Brava, brava, brava, bravo, brava. Great. Katherine and Jonathan, what do you want. to say before we go? Well, I'll start off by just saying this. problem seems so big and the main. criticism I've gotten in the last year. It's there's almost nothing about how I. got the story wrong. The criticism is.

almost always, oh, it's too late. Oh, it's hopeless. Oh, the techn is here to. stay. But what we've seen since the book. launched last April is that parents are. fed up. Teachers are fed up. Legislators. are fed up because their parents and. kids are fed up. So, I am incredibly. optimistic that we are going to roll. this back. The phone-based childhood. only arrived 12 years ago. It's it. hasn't been there that long. We can get. rid of it and I think we're going to. Katherine, what would you add?

I would echo everything you have said. and I'd also speak directly to parents. who are listening and who have read The. Anxious Generation and have felt very. anxious about it and have stayed up at. night thinking, "Oh my goodness, what. have I done to my kid or what am I going. to do to my kid?" And I want to say that. that's why we're writing this book, The. Amazing Generation, because we want to. empower you and your children to make a. better choice. And we're just so excited. to get the chance to do so. So, thank. you for thank you for inviting us to. have this conversation and to introduce. the book to the world.

Jonathan Height and Katherine Price's. new book, The Amazing Generation: How to. Choose Fun and Freedom in a Screenfilled. World, will be available wherever books. are sold. You can pre-order it now. Thanks to all of you who were a part of. today's conversation, Pete, Lindsay, Logan, the Sorell family. Go well. everybody. Thank you so much. You can. subscribe to the Over Podcast on YouTube. and follow us on Spotify, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll. see you next week. Thanks everybody.