Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power

Hey there, glad you're here with me on. the Oprah podcast. My guest today is the. former Prime Minister of New Zealand, the right honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern. And when she was only 37 years old, she. made history as the youngest female head. of state in the entire world. That means. on the planet Earth. But what truly set. her apart was her mission to lead with. kindness. If I could distill it down into one. concept that we are pursuing in New.

Zealand, it is simple and it is this. Kindness. Her first memoir is now available and. it's called a different kind of power. And I highly recommend it for anybody. who's thinking about leadership in your. own life or been through challenging. times or just living and being able to. live at the utmost best even in the. crises of your life. It's a different. kind of power and being able to tap into. that power is what this book is all.

about. And also the new documentary. Prime Minister, which is so revelatory. and really a thrill to watch. How do we shine a light on the humanity. that I know is still there. [music]. and amongst everything else? The documentary will be released. exclusively in theaters on June 13th, just a week from now as we're speaking. Jacinda Ardern, welcome. Thank you. What a pleasure to be here. such an honor to have you here. Oh, the the treat is all mine. Thank.

you. Well, I have to tell you, I had the. I don't even know what you call it, my. first experience in New Zealand. I was. filming a movie called Wrinkle in Time. and we shot it in New Zealand and I. wanted to go just because it was being. filmed in New Zealand. And I have never. experienced a world like that. It's like. you're driving along and you turn a. corner and you're like, [gasps]. "Oh my gosh, [laughter]. everything is everything is. breathtaking. is It is genuinely a breathtaking place.

and with beautiful people, too. Just. really beautiful, wonderful people. And what do you love most about being. from New Zealand? The people. I do think the people, you. know, and that there's something that. I've missed since I've been away, but. you know, you can still spot a a New. Zealander when you're out in the world. often, you know, little things. I'll be. walking through an airport and recently. I saw someone walk past me with a. with a piece of greenstone, pounamu, Uh-huh. around their neck. Uh-huh. And I just yelled, "Kia ora!". and then you just hear a "Kia ora!" ring.

out back in response, you know, wherever. you are in the world there's that. affinity because you come from such a. special place. And everybody knows it. Everybody knows. it. I I did sense when I was there that. everybody knows that it is, you know. appreciate it and. for the most part cares for it, uh, as. well and you would have seen the natural. beauty. We feel. the natural beauty. Well, the and that you have more sheep. than people, too. And cows. And cows. Let's not [laughter] forget. But I I I.

remember seeing recently that you had. planned or at least wanted to hike in. New Zealand to mark your birthday. on it. But you said you couldn't find anyone to. hike with. There are 5 million people. who would be willing to hike with you. to hike with you. [laughter]. I know. I still That is still on my. bucket list. Yes. It's It's a great place to to hike. Do you miss it? I do. Being in Boston? I do. I'm I miss I miss the people. I. miss the place. Um, but it'll always be. home and I'll be back. And you'll be back. Mhm. Well, I just Well, first of all, I, over.

the years, have loved book titles. I. love first lines of book. I love titles. And I think this is such a powerful. title, A Different Kind of Power. How. did you come to it and what was the. inspiration? It was a real process. Um, I don't know. whether I'm meant to share. the iterative process. You know, I. remember one of the early titles I. floated with the publisher was run. It was just. [laughter]. I and they said to me, but it might.

convey that people should you know, turn. their back on challenging. opportunities. And I said, well, that's. that's [snorts] part of the appeal for. me because actually my first instinct. when faced with really. you know, huge responsibility was run. But actually I also wanted it to be a. call to action, you know, to push. through that, to take on the opportunity. to. run for elected office or whatever might. come your way. Um, but in the end. decided it might be misconstrued as a.

jogging book. And so we. [laughter]. landed with this. And for me, I think a. different kind of power. I. you know, I think I. could go as far back as to say I really. grew up with a series of character. traits that over the years I believed. were weaknesses. Things that I thought. would hold me back in in life, you know, a lack of confidence being a significant. one. But if. Which is so shocking when I read this. that you had that thing that I I I'm. still trying to understand and I.

certainly am trying to understand why. you have imposter syndrome. Yeah. I was 14 years old when someone first. used the term imposter [music] syndrome. And it was just like something clicked. Suddenly I had words to describe how I'd. felt for every speech competition I did. or any challenge where I just had a bit. of a seed of doubt and a fear that. something might expose that I shouldn't. be there. I think a lot of people have it. I think.

I think a lot of people have it. But we. don't talk about it because we have that. fear that if you are to articulate it, that that will be a sign of weakness. That people will lack confidence in you. You say this about your younger self, my. whole short life I had grappled with the. idea that I was never quite good enough. Why do you think you felt that way? I I struggled to pinpoint the origin of. it. It certainly wasn't I mean I had the. most encouraging family. Yes. wonderful teachers.

encouraging family. I love the fact that. you had a father who's a policeman who. cared about people and he believed that. to fix crime that you had to understand. why the crime was happening, which is. highly unusual I would think for a lot. of, you know, police officers. Incredible role models. Incredible role. models. And so this, you know, when I. think back what was the source of this. confidence gap, I couldn't tell you. I. think that. uh a number of people who have talked. about it often might say the same thing. It's something they identify quite early.

on and they can't tell you its origin, but I notice it in our young people. And I remember as a young member of. parliament going in to give a speech. about leadership to a group of young. women. They were aged from probably. probably about 13 to 15. And I went through an exercise with them. where I said, "I want you to write down. your dream occupation, the thing that. you if you could do anything would love. to do with your life.". And they diligently I saw them all. thinking for a moment, writing it down, and then I said to them, "Now I want you. to write down what you think you'll do.".

And you know, in a way it was a trick. question. I thought that they'd be. confused by it. I thought they'd write. the same thing twice. Nope. Straight away pins were picked up and. and they wrote down. what they believed. And and I asked a. handful of them, "Okay, tell me your. dream job." And one girl. said to me, "I'd like to be a doctor.". And I said, "That's That's wonderful. And And what do you think you'll be?". Without skipping a beat, "Oh, I'll be. probably a travel agent.".

And these two vastly different. occupations. And I asked her, "Why do. you think that you'll be a travel. agent?" She said, "I just think someone. else will be a better at being a doctor. than I will be." And here we are. I. mean, this this young woman, what is it. in her life at that early stage had. given her that mindset? But it was. there. And so, I. I do think there are more people than we. know. that there are more, but then I also. think. that you don't become what you want or.

what you desire, you actually become. what you believe. So, you lean into the. thing that you most believe, which if it is being a travel travel. agent, that's what you end up pursuing. and not the thing that you. would aspire to cuz you're going to lean. to the thing that you most believe is. possible. And perhaps this is one of the reasons. why I feel so motivated to talk about. and to articulate and to say out loud. the thing that I think some people just. don't, which is yeah, I've had a. confidence gap my whole life. Still do.

It's not something I think you can. magically disappear or push away. only I'm bringing it up because you. bring it up in the book, obviously. And. I'm also bringing it up because I have. been such an admirer of yours across the. sea all this time and I just stood in. awe of your leadership. Now, I know what. was going on behind the scenes, but I. just stood in awe of your ability to. stand in such grace and such power that.

seemed to be coming from not out here, not from what everybody expected or. wanted you to say, but there was an. inner strength and an inner knowingness. Mhm. that came from a sense of wisdom I saw. in you. So, then when I read that all. this time you were suffering, I'm like, how could that be true? So, when you became Prime Minister in. 2017, you said that you planned on using. kindness. Yeah. as your guiding principle. In the face of isolationism,

protectionism, racism, the simple concept of looking. outwardly and beyond ourselves, of. kindness and collectivism might just be. as good a starting point as any. You say kindness has a power. Mhm. What do you think that power is? And a. strength that almost nothing else on. this planet has. Well, you you you mentioned earlier. my father, you know, and actually both. my parents. were incredible role models and in the.

process of writing about childhood, one. of the things that came through to me. clearly, which I already knew to be. true, was how influential their example. was to me. My father was a policeman for. 40 years before retiring. And there were so many times when I saw. him policing in the community, but we. lived in a very small town for a time. and so I got to see close up him at. work. And he always had, I think, that. approach to policing that he was a. member of a community first and. foremost, and if he was going to police. successfully, he needed to build trust.

And to build trust, he needed to try and. bring dignity to the work that he did. I remember one day, I was only little, I. probably I would have been maybe six or. seven, and to get into to walk into a. the little township, which I'd do every. so often to go and get a bag of lollies. or something, I would cut through the. car park at the police station. And I remember coming through one day. and seeing my dad. uh surrounded by. what in reflection I know were were gang. members. And I, you know, I knew enough.

to know that it looked like a pretty bad. situation. Uh and my dad had clocked me and he told. me to just keep walking. And, you know, so off I went, but then. worrying the entire time about how my. dad got out of that situation. That night I asked him about it, thinking that because he was so. outnumbered that he must have had to. have used force in some way. And he looked so disappointed at my. assumption. And I remember him saying to. me, "The greatest tool that I have will. always be my words.".

You know, and so he he was someone who. modeled role modeled I think to me as. did my mother. the importance of communication, the. importance of empathy, the importance of. kindness even in such a difficult job. like policing. And so I think that was. probably some of the earliest examples. for me of how there can be a strength. and a power. to kindness and empathy which we often. forget in leadership. So was it after you stepped into the. role of Prime Minister or before that.

you'd made a decision that I'm going to. do this differently than I've ever seen. anybody else do it because nobody even. if they were trying to do it a little. bit ever announced that kindness is. going to be my principal? Um before, before. I might not have. always articulated it as kindness. You. know, at first I think when I went into. politics. you know, the cut and thrust was always. the bit that I I struggled with. You. know, we have a Westminster system in. New Zealand so it can be quite. aggressive. It can be a bit of a bear. pit. And I remember feeling that.

actually as a thin-skinned, sensitive. person it was a hard place to be. And so. originally I thought well, to survive. here I have to toughen up. But there was a politician who rightly. pointed out to me that actually being. sensitive is a form of empathy and that. actually can be a kind of power. kind of power. kind of power. A strength, not a. weakness. And so I made a decision that okay, then. that was that was something I was going. to hang on to. And it might not make me. a successful politician because if our.

markers of success in politics or in. leadership are you know, to be overly. confident or to bring ego or to be brash. then maybe I wouldn't succeed, but. that's okay. That's why it's so unusual to me that. you are and have been such a strong. leader and particularly in the arena of. politics because I think it requires in. general and also specifics. We can look. different people in the world, various. leaders in the world. It requires a.

pretty huge ego to do it. Wouldn't you say? Yeah, well, it certainly that seems to. be I think the assumption we have. Yes. And yet, I think people would also agree. that politics is a hard place to be. It is a hard place to be. And so, for. the most part, my experience at least in. New Zealand was it for the most part, even when you're on different sides of. the of the house, Yeah. most part, people are usually motivated. to improve the place they live in. To improve.

the lives of the people around them. They often just have very different. ideas of what that looks like. How they how they how they're going to. go about doing it. Uh, and you know, the the thing that I. think increasingly turns people off. politics is the way that it's seen in. in, you know, the public domain is that. people don't have their eyes on. improving people's lives. They're. they're in the politics. They're in the. politics. Right. But my experience is that often people. sacrifice a lot to be there, and most of. the time, most of the time, it's for the.

right reasons. Okay. So, in a different kind of power, you let us in to your. internal monologue. Yes. Into your internal monologue. Can. you take us back to the eve of winning. the election, and you take that. pregnancy test, and that little pink. line shows up. Can you take us back to. that extraordinary moment? What was. going on? it was a it was it was an extraordinary. moment in a string of extraordinary.

moments. So, I was the we'd been in. opposition for 9 years. So, we had not. been in government for a long time. And. so, it was pretty soul destroying to be. in that situation. Your party, you're not. Your party. Yeah. And so, I was the deputy leader. Now, in. New Zealand, being deputy leader does. not mean you are the next in line. It. means actually probably you're not too. threatening. Yes. [laughter]. You're there in a as, you know, a. support person to the leader. Uh. Which is where you'd always wanted to be. anyway. You love being behind the. scenes.

I thought I was much better suited to a. role like that. Um but even then I found. that challenging. We're 7 weeks out from. the election and one day my my boss and. I we received poll numbers that say. we're hitting south. Things are not. looking good. Uh and you know, my leader muses aloud. to me, maybe I should step down. And. you know, the panic alarm rings for me. in my head. The idea that he's. contemplating departure 7 weeks out from.

an election. Well, I actually respect that. Uh well, I respect that he had that. thought process. I I did not appreciate. Absolutely. I did not appreciate that he. looked at me. [laughter]. as the possible replacement. A week. after that conversation, he came to work. one day, he quit, and he nominated me. And so I then found myself in the. position of leading the party into an. election. You knew you were going to be nominated. though, right? Uh. I had a sense that he'd suggested that.

if anyone was going to take over, that. he thought it should be me. I thought it absolutely should be me. you had done interviews saying clearly. not I'm not the one who's running the. year. Absolutely not. And I meant it. didn't want it. I did not. [snorts]. Yes. I did not. But there's always, you know, I think. everyone. can identify with that idea that. sometimes you can have these dueling. you know, these dueling sentiments, these dueling values. The idea on the. one hand that lack of confidence, on the. other.

a sense of responsibility. Mhm. And so the moment came that he said, "Well, I. I'm nominating you, and I believe you. need to step up." It was just time for. the sense of responsibility. And you were 37. I was 37, yeah. Wow. Uh and then. the election. Um in New Zealand, we have a system a. little bit similar to Germany. You don't. always know on election night who has. the numbers to form a government. So, on. election night, it was not clear-cut. There was one small party that held the. balance of power, and they decided they.

would negotiate with both us and one. other parties. So, we were in the middle. of those negotiations. when I start feeling a little off. Mhm. Had you missed your period? Uh well, there was one of the obviously, there's a number of things that suggest. maybe you should think about taking a. test. Yeah. I don't remember at the time them being. large red flags for me. Mhm. Uh any large red flags, just feeling a. bit off is how I would describe it. And a friend of mine, um. suggested I take a test. And so, in the.

middle of negotiations to find out I. would be whether I would be Prime. Minister, I first found out I was. pregnant. Mhm. Uh so, And you thought what? I thought you could not write this. [laughter]. Until you did. So, um it I talk a lot. more about, you know, how that was a bit. of a surprise because. um. having a child had been something we'd. thought about, but it did not come easy. to me. And so, it was uh it was a real.

surprise. when it was going to be the most. challenging. Yeah. Yes. I love the I love the way the. universe set you up that way. I didn't know if I loved the universe in. that moment. [laughter]. I think I have probably natural levels. of anxiety for someone who's 37 years. old and 10 weeks ago did not anticipate. being in this position. And who's also pregnant. Well, reading this part of the book, you. flying all over the place. I mean, just. imagine going to meetings with your.

breast pumps. You're in the back of the. car with your breast pumps tucked under. your tucked under your blouse. I mean, it's like you were superwoman, pumping. and speaking and having meetings and. making decisions. Yeah, I think I at the time. Cuz you were determined that you were. going to breastfeed. I I was determined. I was determined. And now looking back on it, I see there. were lots of reasons why I was. determined. I think I saw it as a part a series of. mini tests. The test of motherhood, you know, the.

test to prove that I was doing what I. was meant to do. Um. and but it was it was hard and it didn't. come easy for me. Uh and as I said, yeah, it didn't. And and I think I had. this idea in my head that. eventually it's just meant to work. Um but uh it wasn't like that and I. think it's not like that for a lot of a. lot of women. Mhm. Uh. and one of the reasons I wanted to write. about it was to just demonstrate that, you know,

out there in the images that we present, sometimes it may have looked like I was. Wonder Woman. It may have. But I would hate that to be the. sentiment because. yes, I was doing a lot and I was. carrying a lot, but I had I had a. support network. I had a village. I had. an incredible partner who. Clark. traveled, yeah. Um now husband who. traveled with me, who was our primary. caregiver. And if anything, I'd like to. put the spotlight on that because I. don't think we should have an. expectation that women do everything.

Right. You we don't we shouldn't set. Certainly you did it, but you don't want. to set up the expectation that everybody. can run around with their pump in the. back of the car. Absolutely. Yes. Um we should have an. expectation that there's a village. And not to mention not just running. around, you know, with the pump in the. back of the car, breastfeeding, doing. all the things that are there required. Yeah. of a world leader, having other people, the naysayers, question whether you should even have. the right to be a mother and and and.

also be. I think this is part of the reason, yeah, that you you you want to do it all. and not be seen to break a sweat because. Yes. you know, I was at that time only the. second. uh. leader in the world to give birth in. office. And so, I felt a certain amount. of pressure to make sure. that no one could question that it that. it impaired my ability to do the job. Mhm. Because what would that then say to. anyone else? You know, another leader, another.

politician. I can do this no matter what. Yeah. So, hide the morning sickness. Yes. Mhm. Hide the fact you can't quite walk. straight after after after birth. Just. make it make it look like it is entirely. possible to do all of those things. And. with the right support, you can. But it. does require support. Mhm. Yeah. And then you made history in I think it. was 2018 when you brought Neve to the. United Nations in New York. It was the. first time in history a baby was brought.

to the floor. of the UN General Assembly and the. photos were seen all over the world. And. you came out of that experience with a. powerful. message for women. First of all, that. that was a different kind of power to be. able to bring your baby to the United. [laughter] Nations. And I didn't I don't even I don't. particularly remember. thinking about the magnitude of that. moment. Yeah, for me it was just pure. logistics. Neve was 4 months old. I was. still breastfeeding. She had to come with me. And actually,

the moment when she was photographed, I. mean, you can tell it we're not aware. we're being photographed. That is one of. the more presentable photos of me. [laughter]. Because we're in the floor. It was at an. event to mark the legacy of Nelson. Mandela. And so, uh the it not the entire floor was not. full at that time. And so, I didn't ex-. the press you couldn't see. Mhm. I could just hear the clicking click. click click click click click. I did not. think they were aimed on us. And so,

again, I think it was just a moment. where. you were getting on with what was. required and then afterwards. afterwards was the moment that I. thought, "Well, I guess that was a. historic moment." And if there's any. message I want people to take, it's that. that there I am with my partner. Mhm. behind me is the person who made sure. that we had a bassinet for Neve and a. place to be uh in between time. My. foreign policy advisor, she covered us. so that we could go to the the. president's reception. You know, I had a.

I had a team. And how lucky was I? you came out of that, your message was. both spoken and unspoken. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. And the essence of that message was. what? That yes, you can do it all, but don't. do it alone. Don't expect to do it alone. Wonder Woman needed a sidekick deserves. a sidekick, too. That's so correct. Yes, you can do it. all, but don't expect it to do it alone. Yeah. Because I didn't. That is so clarifying.

And I know how lucky I was. Mhm. I was lucky. And so, knowing that, you know, I remember them. I've always been interested in and. focused on child poverty. And I put a. lot of that back to. yeah, observations growing up as as a. child. I had a wonderful childhood, but. I observed children who didn't have what. I had. And then becoming a mother and. experiencing having a village, I then. became focused on what about all those. sole parents? What about all those women.

who were doing this alone? How How do. they do that? And so, extending paid parental leave, uh. increasing. uh government support for parents. raising children alone, increasing access to child care, even. giving special leave to women who. experience. miscarriages, all all of that became. part of our agenda. Uh and that was. because as a government, we really. thought about. what it is to be a parent in the world.

It's so interesting because in the book. and in the documentary, we see how your. now husband, Clark, really takes on the. role of super dad and steps in and um. there's a moment when people are. protesting outside and like where is he. and where what's happened to him and. you're like he's raising our child. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But what an amazing example he was for. setting, you know, the stage for the. world to see. And I remember, you know, we were very.

open about the fact that he was going to. be the primary caregiver. I remember afterwards him sharing with. me that he had had a a number of um. men who would come and almost talk to. him behind a closed hand about the fact. that they had been the primary. caregiver, too. And so, the chance to. spotlight that, normalize that, we will. all have different seasons. And while my season was in office, his. season was the opportunity to have. formed this beautiful relationship with.

our daughter. And then he'll have a. season and then I'll take on different. roles and for me that's a beautiful. partnership to have. I love the way in A Different Kind of. Power, you talk about how. you everything in your life prepares you. for. Mhm. you know, stepping into this role, what. you've done in the past and you have. your own agenda for things you want to. accomplish while you're in office, you. know, child poverty because it's always. been important to you and mental health. issues and all the things you go in and. then.

there is the Christchurch mass shooting. Yeah. So, all the things you want to. accomplish and you are about the. business of doing that. Nothing prepares. you for the horrific. experience of this mass shooting. So, you all recall in 2019, New Zealand. experienced the worst mass shooting in. its history. Yeah. There were 51 people. Mhm. who were killed at a mosque. Mhm. and uh Islamic center and your.

leadership after that tragedy made. headlines around the world. I just in. reading about it. what was going on with you at that time? I mean, you don't even know how to think. about something like that, how to. process. But in that moment everything. that had ever happened to you in your. life imposter or not. Mhm. you leaned into the most powerful space. and you made decisions and navigated. through that in such a way that showed.

us all what it means to step into your. own power. How were you able to do that? I think in. leadership sometimes we're. presented with this idea that you have. to. fit a particular mold. Mhm. And so often parts of that mold tell you. not to show emotion, not to share or. show how you're feeling in any given. moment. Mhm. And you know, during the aftermath of.

the shooting, it was almost impossible. for me not to feel deeply what had. happened to. our Muslim community in our country. It just wouldn't have been possible to. hide that for me. And you immediately said, "People who. chose to be here, this is their. country.". Absolutely. The idea and because this. was the motivation of the person who. undertook this attack. his entire motivation. uh was to other.

Mhm. members of our community. Cuz he wanted to cause a division within. He did. He wanted to create an internal. war for he saw New Zealand as too. inclusive. Mhm. Too welcoming. um and particularly in his mind to. Muslim communities. He was not from New. Zealand. He chose New Zealand for that. reason. And he came to our country with the. intention to try and cause division. And. in my mind, I simply reflected in the. aftermath the sentiment that I saw and I.

felt from New Zealanders. Uh which was first and foremost an. overwhelming sense of grief. Uh. uh. anger that someone would come and. perpetrate such violence on our Muslim. community. And an utter rejection of. everything he represented. Uh. I I have never felt more privileged to. lead. than I did during that period because I. saw ultimately what New Zealanders did.

in response to that attack. And. uh the response of our Muslim community, which was deeply humbling. So when people um. particularly members of the Muslim. community from around the world comment. on it, I mostly feel sadness. Shouldn't it be a given that in after. experience like that that you respond. with humanity? And you're talking about the fact that a. lot of people from the Muslim community. wrote to you saying, "Thank you. We.

appreciate you standing with us. We. appreciate you honoring our loved ones. who passed." I mean, you know what I I. just thought. even how you handled um. the difficulty of you know, other. people's customs because the custom of. having to bury your dead immediately. And you having to figure out with. yourself. and the team, how do we tell. this community, "You're not going to be.

able to bury your dead right away. because this is now a police. investigation and. And these were these were I mean, incredibly. uh. challenging moments that only I would. have understood. exactly. you know, the the the things the. community were grappling with. had I been there. And I think one of the. things one of the really important. things about empathetic leadership is. that you just instinctively feel like. you need to be on the ground closest in.

closest proximity. uh to where the crisis has happened. knew immediately to wrap your head? I I and you know, no one told me I. needed to do that. No one counseled me. Often people ask me what about that. decision. I all I remember thinking was I'm going. into. the community space. They have just lost. an incredible number of their family. members and their loved ones. The least. I can do is show respect in that moment.

And so, I all all I really remember from. that moment as I packed from Wellington. to get ready to go to Christchurch was. calling a friend and asking if she had a. scarf I could use. No one counseled me either way. It just. felt like the least I could do in that. moment. And then then then there was that famous. photograph of you with the scarf. Yes. And in the book I talk a little bit. about that moment because whilst, you. know, a lot of the commentary was about. me. when I was photographed, at that time I.

was listening to one of the most. humbling. Yes. experiences, which was a leader in the. Muslim community who had just watched. members of his congregation been. uh shot. And he thanked New Zealand. Uh. for me, the Muslim community led uh. a response that humbled. everyone. So, a different kind of power meant. that you instinctively knew that the.

thing to do is to go to the people where. the people are hurting. Absolutely. And a different kind of power. um. allowed you to embrace those those. people, the community, the Muslim. community in a way as though they were. your own people, your own family, your. own I mean, it's like watching you and. reading about you doing that. It's like. you were a part of that community at. that time. I think in leadership, particularly in. these times,

there's a there's a tendency at at least. to be provided with advice to to avoid. unpredictable situations. And there is often nothing more. unpredictable than in than periods of. crisis, but particularly with this. crisis and grief. Yeah. Understandably. But I have to tell you, I mean, when I. was watching that on the news, I was so. moved by your. authenticity and your sincerity, because, you know, things happen in the. world, there's a crisis, there's a. shooting, there's a bombing, and.

leaders, they show up, they do their. little drive-through and run through and. have their speech, but you were in it. You were in the center of it. You were. I think only by being in it and for for. me in hindsight, you know, taking a bit. of time to reflect, you know, I think. the important thing about proximity is. it allows you to then understand what's. needed. Empathy is nothing without. action. You were in it with people crying on. your shoulders, literally. In your in. your bosom, yes. And and hearing then in those moments. what people needed. They'd lost, in many.

cases, their breadwinner. Um they'd uh. they may have had in that time uh. you know, a lack of sense of security. around their ability to continue to. reside in New Zealand. Um there are a. whole range of issues that by having. that proximity, you understood. And true. empathy is then actually following. through with action. What do you Now. that you've seen it, now that you've. heard it, what will you do about it? We are here just 26 days after the most. devastating of terrorist attacks in New.

Zealand's history. When I visited the hospitals and the. victims, none of them had just one gunshot wound. In every case, they spoke of multiple. injuries, multiple debilitating. injuries. I could not fathom how weapons. that could cause such destruction. and large-scale death. could have been obtained legally in this. country.

You and your administration reformed New. Zealand's gun laws in 10 days. And in. reading the book, I now. I can see that you were fueled Yeah. by. your passion came from being amongst the. community and feeling their loss in such. a personal and powerful way. How did you. make that happen so quickly? Yeah, in my mind, one of the beautiful. things about New Zealand and New. Zealanders such a pragmatic people. And.

every time you see crisis in New. Zealand, whether or not it's a. you know, a weather event or in this. case, that alongside. the care and support you see the. community provide, there's that, now. what can we do? Mhm. And that is reflected then in an. expectation of leaders. What will you. do? Yeah. Uh and there were two things. One was, well, first of all, we know that he was. able to take the lives of so many. because he had access to uh. military-style semi-automatic weapons,

particularly AR-15s. And then it begged the question, well, how was he able to get access to those? And the answer was legally. And I. remember in that briefing, which was. only the day after the shooting, when I. received that briefing and was told he. legally obtained those weapons, you. know, my immediate instinct was, well, that can't stand. And I had that strong. sense that even though I I had to. consult with. other members of Parliament to get their. support. I just had a sense that New. Zealanders would want that to change.

And so, when I went down to. But he wasn't even from New Zealand. He wasn't. He was from Australia, and. there's there's a you know, there's a. range of things that. make things a bit easy when you're from. the closeness of our relationship, but. we had he was able. to legally obtain those weapons. And I. think that was that was a shock to New. Zealanders that you could so easily. access. weapons that were able to take the lives. of so many so quickly.

Because one of the things you talk about. here is that when you went and visited. people in the hospital, nobody had one. Nobody had. uh just the the range of injuries and. the scale of injuries. And so, I just. instinctively knew, and I think he and. Pace knew that New Zealanders would be. behind them. And they. they were. So, when they cast the cast. the vote, 119 of 120 members of. Parliament supported. the banning of military-style. semi-automatic weapons in New Zealand. Uh and so, when we passed that law,

uh we bought them back. So, people who. had them, we paid for them. Uh and then we destroyed them. Well, what do you say to people say, "Well, you you you didn't get rid of all. of them"? You know, in in our minds, of course, understanding that New Zealand, you. know, we are hunters, we have pests. There's a number of reasons why people. hold guns, but weapons like that. they're designed to take the lives of a. large number of people in quick order.

And in this case, they did. And yes, you know, we still have weapons. in New Zealand, but we do not routinely. now have these ones. And that was I. think an incredibly important response. to to this attack. Mhm. Well, as we were talking, no one. had any expectation that you would end. up in your administration during your. time there serving as Prime Minister, as. the worst mass killing ever in the. history of New Zealand. Also, nobody expected the pandemic.

No. And during the pandemic, some called. your COVID policy one of your greatest. political legacies, but there were also. blistering critics and criticisms for. it, and even. people marching outside your office and. death [clears throat] threats. Mhm. You talk a lot about it here. We get. inside your head. But can you briefly. for our audience, um, describe. what grappling with that experience was.

like? Because in the beginning, we were. looking at you all you only had like six. cases in the beginning. Yeah. Yeah, we're like, I guess everyone started with a small. number, and that was one of the things. when we looked out into the world. because we were later in receiving, um, COVID. It took a little longer to get to. to our shores. Our first case was the. 28th of February in 2020. So, we we. could see what was happening. Uh, and we also knew from modeling what. it would mean for our population. Like,

tens of thousands of people losing their. lives. And I remember being presented with that. as a leader. You know, I talk a little bit in the book about. how there's so few decisions where you. can draw that direct line between your. decision and and life and death. Mhm. But a pandemic is one of them. Uh, and. one of the things that we decided to do. really early on was just share. everything we knew about this illness. But also. transparent. transparent, but also everything we. didn't know. And as a result of that,

you know, when it came to the point that. we made the decision that actually we. need we need to close our borders and. see if we can try and keep New Zealand. COVID-free till we have another way of. protecting people. Well, that's just one sentence you're. using to describe this, but it was a. process. a big process. It moved quickly, but it. was a process. do we How do we stop this? Yeah. We need to close our borders. Mhm. Um but by sharing all of that you know, New Zealanders could see not only the. decisions we were making, but the.

choices we had. And uh I think that made. a difference in people, you know, supporting the course of action. it. Yeah, and. Certainly in the beginning. In the beginning. And look, there's no. question. You know, I look around the. world, it was. an incredibly difficult thing to govern. through. So, how would you describe this last. week? If there is like a subterranean space. that sits beneath hell.

that. you know, no response was perfect. Mhm. Populations around the world would have. reflections on what they believed their. government did right and what they did. wrong. And. after the pandemic, we put in place a. royal commission people to go and ask. those questions for us. Look at how we. can be better prepared next time. Um But. But I think the issue. uh that you described so beautifully. here, and you can describe it. beautifully cuz you know, you've had. time to sit with it. Yes. Very well.

written, I must say, too. Thank you, cuz that one I rewrote and. rewrote and rewrote because. I felt I was processing it. You know, I. came out of COVID and it was a. I had two goals, and and I've talked. about this a bit. One was to save. people's lives, but the other was to. keep people together. And I didn't. achieve both. I found that so hard. I. still find it hard. But you saved people's lives so that if. they want to eventually get together, they can. Okay. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so, it you. know, it's hard to feel upset about. that. I don't, you know, and when people. say, "What do you regret?" I find that.

really simplistic because. When people started to turn on you, though, Jacinda, when people started to. turn Listen, I've had people turn on me. I've heard the vitriol from the web. I've had the you know, the lies, the. stories, the conspiracy theories made. up. It is so disorienting. It is. It is so. It just it shakes your foundation cuz. you're like, I don't even recognize who. you're talking about. I absolutely agree with you and it's one. of those things that you then realize.

how much through your life you rely on. the ability to still just communicate. with someone. Yes. And that if you can at least talk to. them and you can have that dialogue then. if there is that you know, that bizarre. view that someone might have, that. conspiracy theory that you think you. might be able to talk them through. are you are. you're losing sleep at night, you need. sleeping pills in order to get to sleep. because you were trying to make the best. decision for the the masses. Yeah. I just don't understand how anyone.

[music]. could assume that I'm so cavalier about. having a whole city. and over [music] a million people in. lockdown. Of Of course. I think about it all the time. I have to. take sleeping pills so I don't think. about it all the time. And then you get accused of oh, you said. it's a power play, you're ego tripping, you're taking advantage of other. people's lives, you're trying to ruin. the economy on purpose. I mean, it's. it's. And so the only thing that you can, you. know, it took me a while to get to this, but the only thing that you can hold on.

to in those moments is that you know. what your motivation is. You know that. Yeah, you're just trying to make the. right decisions. And even I think I remember my hardest. moments. looking out when we did have a an. occupation on Parliament's grounds and. thinking, well, they think they're protecting people's. lives, too. And so do I. We actually. want for the same things. We have just come at it from completely. different corners and I do spend a lot. of time reflecting on it, but I still.

give myself. as much grace as I can that we were. motivated by the right things and that. was to save people's lives. For all the thinking I give to what I. would have done differently, I would. still rather be. sitting in front of the public and. explaining why perhaps we did too much. rather than why we did too little. Because. the doing too little. was the difference between people living. and people dying. Mhm. Do you think too, you were talking about. being completely transparent, which is.

another. your another way of you offering a. different kind of power. Completely. transparent, letting people know now. this is what is happening. This was. But I think what people weren't prepared. for, okay, we locked down, we have. isolated ourselves, we shut the borders. Now we're going to open up, we're. celebrating. Big celebration. And after that, oh now. we have to lock ourselves down again. because now there's a different variant. I think people. just got weary of the now there's a.

different variant and there's another. variant and there's another variant. Yes. So we would only we would use lockdowns. when there were cases that we couldn't. trace. So that's when we would use it. And ultimately it meant that we had. fewer days in lockdown than most. countries. And when we were out, we had. relative normality. And I think importantly we saved an. estimated 20,000 lives. But it came at a cost, you know, for. everyone globally. I think there is.

globally now this. this unease that. the way that we'd experienced the world. was upended. Suddenly you could have. something that you just didn't see. coming and it can fundamentally change. your life in an instant. And we already have such a sense of. uncertainty in the world, technological. developments, the impact of you know, the changing economies that we have, multiple wars raging. We have an a sense. of insecurity that the pandemic just.

exacerbated so much. And I think as. leaders, and this is one of the things I. I talk about a lot. We have options in. this environment now. We have the option. of actually tackling the core of the. difficult problems we have presented to. us, which is hard. Or we have the option. of blaming others, of saying that the cause of the. insecurity you feel or the financial. insecurity you feel is this group or. this group. And that is a quick and easy.

way to do politics, incite fear. It's. the oldest trick in the book, but it is. the most harmful and the most damaging. And. I talk openly about the alternatives. because they exist. There are leaders. who champion empathetic leadership, who. actually want to solve the problems. But. what we see a spotlight more often is. that alternative. And and I. I wish so much that we can turn. towards those more optimistic, hopeful, and inclusive responses to problems,

rather than the fear that we see people. reach to. Do you wish you were back in it so that. you could offer these optimistic and. hopeful. There are There are other politicians. There are politicians out there and. leaders out there who believe in solving. those core fundamental problems. rather than politicking around them. I. see it. I see it. I've met them. I run a. fellowship program called FIELD. um to support them. most admire right now who's doing that? Who's modeling that different kind of. power? lots of different levels. I see it in.

leadership. I think the president of. Mexico at the moment is so genuinely. focused on the well-being of her people. through difficult times. I see it in. lots of places, but I see it at, you. know, new incoming MPs, MEPs. We need to. shine a light on them. Um because I. think people are losing their hope in. politics. And yet there are people that they. should feel hopeful about. Okay. I asked this of Jimmy Carter once. When you have the weight of the entire. country on your shoulders.

and you did in several instances the. weight of the entire country. and just in general as Prime Minister. the weight of the entire country on your. shoulders what is your prayer? I had I had certain mantras that I would. that would run through my head. and the one that was most. common was just. let this be the right decision. It's be. the right decision and that didn't. always mean the most popular decision. I.

could carry the weight of an unpopular. decision if it felt like it was the. right one. I could wear a lot if it felt like the. right one. But just let it be the right thing to. do. You know one of the. the strengths of all of those things. that I thought would hold me back of a. little bit of you know that that. self-doubt was actually I would prepare. I would bring in experts. I would use. people who had. the knowledge and expertise to give me.

the best possible advice. I would read. everything I could about a challenge. that was presenting itself. And then I would overlay my values. Yeah, you knew as [clears throat] much. about COVID as the doctors did because. you were studying it every night. Yes. I was mocked for that in some cases by. my by the people I worked with. That's. what's sitting between me and going to. sleep now. That's in you. So. and so for me that idea of the right. decision was never just about instinct. and values. It was also about.

having the right information. Having the right information. And you. know that trait that trait of. imposter syndrome. drove me to lead like that. That was a. strength in the end. That was a. strength. Isn't that amazing how that works out in. your life? It. The thing that was your weakness became. your strength. Absolutely. Because you did question whether or not. they're going to question I should be. here. I'm going to make sure that I do. everything exactly. And have the humility to know that you. don't know all the answers and to bring.

in the people who might and to draw on. that wisdom. different kind of power to have that. humility. And to say from time to time I don't. know. Mhm. Um because it's very different than I. don't have a plan and you can lead and. be open about what you know and what you. don't and actually can build trust. FDR. was that kind of leader and he. communicated so directly to people. during crisis during the depression and. and war times. What he knew and what he. didn't know and I think people built.

trust around him as a result. other leaders you've admired? Well, I think you know, when I look at. the United States and I look at times of. crisis. I mean, I do draw back to FDR. because. there was an empathy to him and maybe. that came from personal circumstance, but it manifested in the way that he he. did the job. In New Zealand we have. similar political leaders. I remember as. a. child our cat was named Norm. and my father named him after a.

Prime Minister Norman Kirk and as I grew. older I read a little bit more about him. and he was asked in a prime time. interview once, you know, what. you know, his greatest achievement as. such an. Mhm. uh you know, an entree into. spouting off whatever policy as a. politician you might have. He said the letters that he received. after they increased benefits for the. most vulnerable. One letter where a. woman said she could finally afford. shoes. Ah. New shoes and what a relief it was to.

hear. And. here was this moment with this. uh Prime Minister. Yeah. huge stature. He was a solid. a solid man with such presence, but. speaking so softly and quietly about a. woman. being able to now afford. shoes. new shoes. and. it always stayed with me the fact that. he was someone running a country in an. individual moment could be so meaningful. to him. So, I I've been surrounded by. great examples and perhaps it started.

with my parents. I I love the fact that uh or appreciate. the fact that when you were going. through your. most challenging crises that you looked. to people who was it Shackleton who'd. been through the Antarctic? Yes. Yes, I love those Antarctic. Oh, amazing. stories aren't Isn't that incredible. what he was able to do? And then in the. end he wanted to just save his men. I You know, when you're in politics. people always expect you to spout off. all of these your political role models,

but um mine is. uh. an Antarctic explorer, you know, who. actually failed multiple times and. did not get there. But he saved his men. He saved his men and he had such a. humility in his leadership as well. And. he had the saying that I love. We're talking about Ernest Shackleton, the explorer who led expeditions to the. Antarctic. who is a hero of yours and of mine, too. And you have a mug with one of his. quotes. What does it say? Uh it says optimism is true moral.

courage. And I think there are so many reasons. that resonates with me. And one is that. I think we treat hope and optimism often. as if they're naive. Uh and yet the way that he talks about. optimism is that actually it's a. courageous act and it's a deliberate. decision. Uh and. in the circumstances that he was in and. when he's quoting lines like this, he. was basically stranded in Antarctica.

with no hope of rescue, a sunken ship. Yeah. uh and. knew those men were going to die. Oh, yeah. Well, and yet in that moment. what a courageous act it is to be. optimistic. And without that, you know, it would have impacted I think their. survival. It would have. And so. At another time you all can read that. story. It's. a great story. let anyone tell you you're naive if. you're optimistic. Well, 2 years ago I watched along with. millions when you stepped to the podium.

to announce your resignation. And so today I'm announcing that I will. not be seeking re-election. Well, what a shock that was. I was so struck actually by a few things. you said. Um the thing that that got me the most. was when you said I no longer had enough. in the tank. Yeah. To lead. I know what this job takes. And I know. that I no longer have enough in the tank. to do it justice.

It's that simple. And that you just knew it was time to. step down. Politicians are human. We give all that we can for as long as. we can. And then it's time. And for me. it's time. I understand that feeling cuz you know I. had a talk show in the United States for. 25 years and it just came to me that. I I knew it was time to go. But it's so. rare to find other people. I mean talk. show's not like running a nation as you.

were doing. And when did that feeling start to occur. to you? Was it that you got worn down by. COVID and all the COVID back vac vaccine. objectors? I mean the the point which I made the. decision was a good year after any of. any of that. And there was nothing. particularly occurring at the time. That was what was so great about it. Yeah, cuz it's not like she's stepping. down because of COVID or she's stepping. down because it's too overwhelming or.

she's stepping down. It's that. There was no moment. There was no thing. And in fact I knew I knew when I came to. make the announcement that people would. would wonder you what what is the one. thing and there was no one thing. And in fact I. sometimes. It wasn't one thing, it was everything. It was it was a range of different. um. a range of different trigger points all. of which for me. pointed to am I still the leader I. believe I need to be in order to do this. job well. So I felt like I was becoming.

a bit more defensive than I wanted to. be. Oh my god, do you. That takes a different kind of power. Do. you know what it takes to be to have the. level of self-awareness to say I don't. know if I still have it. Yeah. I thought everyone ran through that in. their mind from time to time. Um but certainly the fact that. through it but they keep going anyway. cuz they don't want to give up they. don't want to give up the perception of. power. I mean, look at look at what's.

happening in our halls of Congress now. People don't speak up because they don't. want to be primaried, they don't want to. lose what they perceive as the real. power in their life. Or perhaps in some cases they feel a. responsibility to stay. And that is real. I you know I I know. that to be true because when I talked to. a very small group cuz I could only talk. to a small group. about the fact I was considering. stepping down. One of the things that was raised well, we have an election. You know, there are.

people that are relying on you and I. felt that weight of responsibility so. so acutely. Mhm. But actually that was also the thing. that. that helped me make the decision. If I knew. that perhaps I didn't have in reserve. what was required for crisis and I'd. seen enough of them to know what you. required. And if I felt that I. was becoming more defensive and maybe. that my curiosity wasn't what it used to. be. uh. those were signs that it would be.

irresponsible to stay. Wow. And as soon as I gave myself. the permission to think about it like. that, that that was that was when I I. that was when I made the call. Yeah. Wow. And how did you prepare for that? How did you prepare to make the. announcement? Once you But once you've. made the decision. Yeah. it's done. Yeah, it's done. how are you going to tell people. And in the I I tried to write about the. the decision and you can see it's a very. iterative thing and.

uh and that's because I think that's. reality. I think. you actually wrote this book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughter]. Thank you. I don't actually, you know, it was. therapy with a deadline. So it ended up. helping in lots of ways, but writing. about the act of leaving, you know, it was it was a series of. conversations. It was a series. of thoughts and moments uh that. culminated in in the decision. And once. I made the decision, then it just came. it it was then just about telling. people. And I was I was. You were ready. I was ready, but I was also afraid.

Mhm. Uh. What were you afraid of? Their their. judgment? Their criticism? Yeah, I think when you're in politics, you're trained. You spend years being. acutely aware [snorts]. of what everyone thinks. Mhm. And it's part of your job. I didn't want. to let people down. Uh I didn't want to. disappoint people. Mhm. Um. and so walking away, yeah, it felt it. felt like it was a lonely decision and. it was a hard decision, but I've never. regretted it and I've never felt like it.

was the wrong one. I was thinking this when I was reading. it. You Did you get out of politics. because of the politics of the politics? It would That has always been my least. favorite part. I mean, that sounds so. silly. My least favorite part of. politics is politics. Mhm. You know, it is I was always attracted. to it because of what you could do. If. you If you want to If you you know, if. you're one of those idealistic young. people who wants to change the world, what better place than politics? It's. incredible what you can do with it and I. still. believe in it now more so than even when.

I went in. But the day-to-day. of it is is difficult because that's. what you have to do in in spite of why. you're motivated to be there. And I know I'm not alone in that. There. are people who love the sport, and there are people who just love what. you can do. [clears throat]. Tell me, how do you go from. the velocity, I think is the word that. Michelle Obama used in her book. Becoming, the velocity of her days. I. mean, she says, you know, there would you don't remember.

where you've been, you don't remember. who you've met many times because you're. meeting so many people. Just the. velocity of life. Yeah. The day-to-day. How do you go from that. to now you're taking care of me, Yes. [laughter]. you're in the house, you're making. dinner, you're having like a normal life. without people standing outside waiting. for answers for everything. two things. I mean, the great. Full speed to slow speed. The great thing about, you know, running. a country like New Zealand is that it's. small, and so you do get to maintain.

lots of normal things. You can, you. know, your supermarket shopping, and and. you're from time to time a drop-off and. leave. I could still do that from from. time to time. But you're right, the pace the pace of. life. uh suddenly turns off like a tap. Um but. even though the expectation wasn't there. anymore, it didn't really change the way. I behaved, and so. I probably now have an issue now that. the book is finished because for a while. that was I would. night time I would write, you know,

every spare moment I would I would. write. And it's only now after 2 years. that I'm I'm sitting still for a bit, and I can tell you my husband doesn't. like it. [laughter]. No, I don't think he thinks it suits my. personality particularly. Well, I think he did a good job filming. the documentary. He did a good. I think he. only only he could have really. You. know, I he's a broadcaster and so when. suddenly I become leader of my party, he.

just picked up his phone and started. filming me and you can. you can see in the film I'm not always. happy about that. Yeah, I can see. And you know, not with a great plan in. mind, he just thought it was a moment in. history to capture. And for me uh. it was a chance to. humanize leadership. In a moment in time when I think we. could all benefit from. humanizing one another. Well, you said that at a speech at. Harvard in 2023. You said that now is.

the time that we need to rehumanize one. another. We've got a hyper partisanship now that. I think can be really damaging. It means. we don't work together as much. It means. we don't listen and engage in respectful. debate that we need. And if we had to get back to doing all. of those things because we won't solve. the climate crisis unless we do. We. won't solve the conflict in the Middle. East unless we do. We have to rehumanize one another again. I think that's what's missing in this. discourse that that everybody's having. with the vitriol and the.

spewing of the hatred is that people. have been so dehumanized. After the uh at attack in New Zealand on. March 15th, one of the things I became. really interested in was how do we get. to a place. where individuals are radicalized to. harm and to violence. I want to I wanted. to understand. how that could happen in our world. And one of the precursors to that um. certainly in the academic writing is. this idea of binary thinking.

Putting people into groups of good and. evil and the moment that you can put. people into those classifications and. the moment you dehumanize them, that is when you see the the that's when. you see acts of terrorism. That's when. you see acts of violence. Absolutely. And so I I do I think it's incredibly. important we find ways to remember our. shared humanity. And if anything I would that March 15th. taught me was. that we have that in us. We we have that. in us. Uh but there are so many things that.

make that more difficult in this modern. age. Now I cannot determine what will define. my time in this place. But I do hope I demonstrated something. else entirely. That you can be anxious, sensitive, kind. and wear your heart on your sleeve. You. can be a mother or not. You can be all of these things. And not only can you be here, you can lead. just like me.

Since you left office, I know that one. of your big passions is a group that you. founded called Fellowship for Empathic. Leadership. You call it FIELD. Mhm. What is that? And and what is your. intention for it? You know, when I after I left office, I. I never particularly saw myself moving. into the space of talking about. leadership. I thought there are people. who have studied this, it's their life's. work. You know, just because I've been a. leader doesn't mean I'm an expert in it. But uh. you know, when I sat down and worked. through, what would have made a.

difference for me as a leader? Having. that network of others who understand. what it is to be in politics and to be. leading empathetically and with. a particular view of leadership, it. would have made a real difference to me. to have a network of others who are. doing the same. And. I know, as I've talked about, that there. are leaders out there who are leading in. that way and may benefit from having. that network. Uh and so I started FIELD. It's a. year-long fellowship program for people. who are working in and around politics.

who believe in empathic leadership. to just support them in their endeavors, just provide that network to help them. keep going. Uh. and also to demonstrate that it is a. successful way to lead and that there is. support for that way to lead from. voters, from the public, for the people. that we serve. When you finished. your manuscript and you send it off to. the publisher, was there a sense of. release and also.

a deeper understanding of what you'd. been through having put yourself through. the process of defining for yourself and. now for the world what a different kind. of power looks like? I remember feeling that after I read it. aloud several times. And this that. probably sounds like a really strange. thing to do. I think every author should. I read it aloud several times probably. because. you know, I'm not an author. I'm a I was. a I considered myself a speech writer. I. would write all my major speeches.

were a speaker cuz you were in on the. debate team. Yes, I was. I was on the debate team. surprise. I was on the debate team. Shocking as I know that will be for. people. [laughter]. Um and and so my training I think was. with speech writing and so I would. always read a speech aloud. And so I. thought I'm going to do that with the. book. I read it aloud several times. It was after I recorded the audio book. Then I remember standing back from it. and thinking, you know, that is. that is the best that I could have done.

Mhm. And I think [clears throat] actually. that's how I felt after I left office. I did my best. And I think when you're someone who does. suffer from a confidence gap, that in. itself is actually a pretty is a pretty. significant. achievement to say actually I know I did. my best. Well, that's all the universe requires. of us. And now I'm so I really am so. delighted and pleased that you. um. decided to put it into words so that we. all get to experience it and we all get.

I think what this book does is gives us. a opportunity to look at what a. different kind of power looks like. within our own lives. And I thank you. for that. Thank you. I I have a I have to tell you I have. been an admirer of yours from afar as I. said earlier and it's so wonderful to be. up close and still [snorts]. have that same admiration cuz you know. people say don't meet your heroes. [laughter]. I'm so glad I met my hero today. Thank.

you. Thank you. come back to New Zealand. I. There's a lot of people wanting to hike. with you. [laughter]. I will do that. Thank you the right. honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern for being. with us today. And A Different Kind of Power is. available wherever books are sold and. Jacinda reads the audio book and as you. just heard her say when she finished she. said that's the best she could do. Really, thank you. Thank you. You're one of those women that makes me. proud to spell my name w o m a n.

Oh. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. Thank you to Lilly for presenting. today's episode. I'll see you next week. Thanks everybody.