Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing

Hi, I am so glad that you all are here. with me. Welcome to the Oprah podcast. They are as controversial as they are. fascinating and I know many of you are. really curious as I am. So let's hop. right into this question. Can. psychedelic drugs like psilocybin, also. known as magic mushrooms, MDMA, also known as ecstasy, and even LSD, can. they heal mental trauma.

or even help people reach a transcendent. transformational spiritual experience? Joining me. the man who's an expert on all of this, Michael Pollan. Great to see you again, Michael. Great to see you, too, Oprah. Once again, Michael Pollan is at the. forefront of a revelatory national. conversation. For newcomers, what [music] is a psychedelic? Today, there's a new and growing fight. to make psychedelics legal again in the.

United States. Up next on StarTalk, all about. psychedelics. Psychedelics, once demonized as a. dangerous counterculture threat, [music]. are being re-examined as a possible tool. for treatment for anxiety, depression, addiction, PTSD, and for spiritual. transcendence. It had been 49 years since the war and I. like to say this, I finally came home. Michael's best known for his blockbuster. books about food, like The Omnivore's.

Dilemma and Cooked, but his. groundbreaking 2018 work, How to Change. Your Mind, created an opening for a new. way to think about psychedelics. It's literally like magic. I was like, how how is this possible? I saw God in everything. I came away. just completely [music] transformed. Before we begin, I just want to say. this, this conversation is not intended. to offer medical advice. Psychedelics. remain illegal in most states. So, I.

urge you to consult your own healthcare. professional before considering any kind. of treatment. So, I read your book back in 2018, How. to Change Your Mind. And when it was. first published, it was really. I would have to say eye-opening. I was surprised that you, Michael. Pollan, who had done all of these. wonderful books about food and the.

omnivore's dilemma and what we should be. eating, had now stepped into another. realm of the. surprised, too. of the plant world. And I found it it. eye-opening and challenging for me. because I'll admit that I. have had and continue to have. preconceived notions and judgments. around psychedelics. And at the time, I. didn't think our culture or I, for that. matter, was ready for this conversation.

I thought, "Whoa, that's really This is. really bold of Michael to do this in. 2018." Which, at the time, it was. But. now I've noticed, and I think you are. the reason for part of the shift. I've. seen, first of all, more articles about. it, more stories about it, more people. who have engaged with the experience of. psychedelics. And I I think something is. happening in the culture. Would you. agree? Absolutely. I mean, that what's happened. since 2018 is I never would have.

imagined. um how many uh. you know, how many studies are going on, how much research is being done, and how. many people are seeking psychedelic. therapy. And um. you know, in one way. you were part of that change, though, because when you wrote this book, you. know, would you say. Yeah, it was pretty fringe. And um Um, I. and I really didn't think that there was. a, you know, large audience for a book. on psychedelics. I was just personally. fascinated. Um, but yeah, I mean, I. think the book.

I hear from especially from scientists. that it became okay to study this after. the book came out. How to change your mind is such a. perfect title, too. Thank you. I love that. What the. new science of psychedelics teaches us. about consciousness, dying, addiction, depression, and transcendence. I. thought, well, if it does all that, I'm. going to read this book. Yes. promise. That's a big promise. But what got me really interested and. making me realize it. So, I had had very. little experience of psychedelics. personally. I was afraid of them. I.

didn't think I was sturdy enough. psychologically to have a big. psychedelic trip, and I didn't do it. when I was in college. Um, but I I wrote an article about a. study where they were giving. psychedelics to people who had cancer. diagnoses, many of them terminal. Was this Roland Griffiths' article? Yes, Roland Griffiths. Roland Griffiths, who I interviewed. Yes. who is a. In his last dying days. That's an amazing interview. Yes. How do we. awaken and and and stay awake to the.

wonder of. what our existence is? And and and he was so. calm about the experience of dying. Yes. And so, you read Roland Griffiths'. article. So, I had he he was doing a study. He. hadn't published it yet, giving. psychedelics, psilocybin specifically, magic mushrooms in pill form, to people. who had cancer diagnoses. And I. interviewed about a dozen of them. And. they told me stories of personal trans. tell people who he was? He's a renowned.

researcher of psychedelics at Johns. Hopkins. Yes. He really got the what's called the. psychedelic renaissance started with his. research. Cuz he wrote this paper on the mystical. and spiritual experience of it all, right? yeah, in 2006. And that really launched. the whole revival of psychedelic. research, which had been a big thing in. the '50s and '60s. I didn't realize it, but in the '50s, LSD was considered a. wonder drug. There were six. international conferences on LSD alone. There were. In the '50s?

In the '50s, up till 1965, from '50 to. Yeah, so we think of psychedelics. and also people said the drug war. The. the drug war? Yeah. And President Nixon, who starts. the drug war, said that the drug war There's a quote. that he gave to John Ehrlichman, his. domestic policy adviser, that we're going We we're going after. LSD to get the hippies and cannabis to. get the blacks. And those were his two. enemies. And that's what the drug war. was really about. Yes. And. so anyway, there had been all this very.

promising research. LSD was being used. to treat alcoholism with a lot of. success. So I didn't know this whole. backstory. I thought of psychedelics as. a '60s thing, but it actually it's. really a '50s thing. And and there was. this. promising research that gets shut down. And we lose like 30 years of research. that is just now resumed. So some people are drawn, we know, to. psychedelics because they are suffering. from mental illness or mental mental. trauma. Not mental illness, mental.

trauma. Because I think if you're. suffering from mental illness, a lot of people shouldn't take it if you. are. Yeah, there definitely people who. shouldn't mess around with these. substances. People at any risk of. schizophrenia, you know, if you have a. relative that has schizophrenia, usually bipolar, they don't. they don't want you in the studies. drugs alone. Yeah. But people struggling with. addiction, anxiety, OCD, obsessive-compulsive. disorder, trauma, Trauma. Yeah, those are mental disorders that.

PTSD. We're going to talk to somebody. later. So some are spiritual seekers, some are suffering from mental traumas, and others are just looking for this. experience. or seem to be doing it for fun. Yeah, I mean people, you know, people. the term recreational is is regarded as. a negative. I mean, to recreate. ourselves doesn't seem that bad. But. yeah, there are people who are just. doing it for thrills, going to concerts.

But in every single instance, isn't it. about changing consciousness? Yeah, it does change consciousness. And. but the set and setting are very. important. So the context in which you. do it, you know, if you do it to go to a. Grateful Dead concert, it's one thing. If you do it in a room, I mean, the way. psychedelic therapy is done is um you're. lying down, you're on a couch, you're. wearing eye shades, you're listening to. music. It's a very internal journey. It's very different than kids taking.

mushrooms and walking in the woods, where it's all about the sensory. thrills. So if you're using it for therapy, as a. lot of people now are, it's a completely different experience. guided experience. Right. And the guide is really. important. So were you reluctant to take I mean, you were, you know, pretty straight. straight-forward guy. terrified. Were you Were Were you reluctant to take. them yourself? Yes. Yes. Yes, I was scared for a lot of reasons. One was would I discover some deep dark. secret about myself? Cuz people do.

discover traumas that they're not. looking for. Yes. That definitely comes up. Um. I would be afraid of having a psychotic. break. I would be afraid of losing my. mind. I was. and not getting it back. I was. You were. Yeah. But I also found that doing it. with a guide. creates this safe envelope, this. container. in which you can really let go. Okay, so tell us about the time you tell. about experiencing. your parents in the trees.

Oh, yeah. I So I had a. "Oh, Michael is really tripping.". [laughter]. But the realization that you had seemed. pretty solid. And I am Michael, I mean, it made me so curious because I'm. surrounded by trees. I love trees. I. think I have some something is going on. with me and trees. I don't know what it. is. So your experience tell tell. everybody what that was. I was doing a a dose of LSD. What does it even look like? It's a very powerful drug. You It's.

measured in micro. grams, not milligrams. And you take a very very tiny amount and. it's usually on a piece of paper. No. It's usually on a piece of blotter. paper. They just put a little drop and. and you put the piece of paper on your. tongue and that's enough. And the experience was you know, I saw. my son, I saw my wife, I saw my parents. and and and there was this It was like a. tree house being built layer by layer by. layer by layer.

And it was a kind of a life review and. I emerged from it with this just surge. of compassion for these people in my. life. And I had this realization which like. 90% of people on psychedelics seem to. have which is the most important thing. in the world is love. Now that's. obvious. But the thing about psychedelics. it or experience it in a way that you. didn't know before? With a conviction that I hadn't had.

before. Yeah. Yes. And does that conviction stay with you. after the experience? Yes, exactly. You really hit on it. The. kinds of insights you have on. psychedelics for reasons we don't really. understand are really sticky. This isn't just an opinion or an. insight. This is like a revealed truth. of the universe. a knowing. It's a knowing. It feels like. a knowing. Exactly. It's. It's revealed knowledge. Yeah. Tell us about the What I'm What. I'm specifically asking about the parent. the father was the tree and the mother. was the tree and they both They were.

there these two trees. about. Yeah. So, I. years ago I built. a little studio where I write and I've. written my books and um. there are it faces two trees and one is. a very elegant white oak that's kind of. leaning and the other is this kind of. solid ash tree and and it was and having. taken um. in this case psilocybin in my garden, I. had this power I mean I you know I love. plants and I've been writing about that.

for a long time and I'm a gardener and. you are too. Um that the plants were. conscious and they were awake. I had. this sense that the plants in my garden. were kind of like. looking at me. and there were these two trees and I. suddenly realized So, I think that and. I'm not on psilocybin. [laughter]. I come in the gate and I say hello to. all the trees. I go, "I'm back. Tell. everybody I'm home." Yeah. psilocybin will say hello back. [laughter]. So, and and these two trees I hadn't.

realized before, "Oh, that's my mother. and that's my father and. and the one that was my father, that. tree had just had had fallen a giant. limb had fallen off and he was sick at. the time and I realized that they were. both going to go eventually. And it was very moving and they were. embodied. that because I think. I'm not conscious enough to know, but I. know that there is a oneness, there's a. connection with all of nature. I just.

Well, that's a. don't know what it is. Yeah, so the. plants aren't speaking to me, but I know. that there is life there. I know that. there is something going on that is. deeper than what we can see. Yeah. I think a key word for what. psychedelics do is connect you and um. and for me it it's about connecting to. nature, it was connecting to people. And the reason that happens, I think, is. that psychedelics soften your ego.

Mhm. And the ego. is you know, ego is a is a walled. structure, right? It's a barrier. It's a. defensive structure. It protects you. people think they are. That's right. They feel they're. identical to their ego. But you're not. You're not. It's just one voice and it. can get quiet. And one of the things. that happens on psychedelics. and we understand this. neuroscientifically. There's a structure. in the network in the brain called. You're not the voice. You're actually. the observer. You're the space between.

the voice and the the thought. And. when you can separate that, which I can. do in meditation and there's an. awareness. in meditation. There's a lot in common, actually. Um. But it sounds like psychedelics is a. higher. level of the deepest of the meditations. Yeah. And um but having done. psychedelics, I became a better. meditator because I understood, oh, this. is where I'm trying to go. But this. sense of. uh you know, your ego softening and some.

and in one case I had completely. disappearing. I had a ego death. experience, which I can tell you about. Um. when the ego goes down, there's nothing. between you and nature or you and other. people or you and the universe and you. feel like the sense of oneness. Yeah. Eckhart Tolle talks about that in in in. A New Earth a lot. So, you know, a lot of the new research, y'all, on psychedelics started with. treating veterans who were suffering. from chronic PTSD. This is where the.

real breakthroughs are, I think. And for. decades, it seemed that no treatment. worked. And then there were a lot of. practitioners who started seeing real. relief for patients using psychedelics. And you told my team about this guy. named Bob Parsons. Mhm. uh who is a Vietnam veteran and a. business mogul who founded the internet. tech company GoDaddy. Y'all remember. GoDaddy? Bob is zooming in. Bob, welcome. to the Oprah podcast. Hi there. Oh, real pleasure to be here, Oprah.

Thank you. to see you. You know you know Oprah, there's. something I got to tell you before we. get started. Tell tell me. Over the years I've done, you know, a. number of of interviews and every once. in a while I would get asked, let's say, "Bob, if you could uh. share beer with anybody or have a beer. with anybody, who would it be?" And my. answer was always Oprah Winfrey. Oh my goodness. Well, I don't have a. beer, but hello, Bob.

[laughter]. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you because. I'm so interested in knowing what was. your PTSD like for you before you had a. psychedelic experience. What what Tell. us how you were tormented by it. Well, you you know, like so many of us. uh particularly you, I grew up tough. And uh you know, I carried you know, probably carried some of PTSD from that. When I was 17, I joined the Marine. Corps. And uh this was back in uh 1968.

and I was um. well, I I was in in Vietnam 6 months. later carrying a rifle. I was in combat. for a month and I was I was wounded. And uh the guy who went there was was. different from the guy who came home. The guy that went there was, you know, pretty happy-go-lucky. Uh was was easy. going, loved loved being out and about. The guy that came home was none of that. The guy that came home had a flash. temper, uh suffered from depression, uh.

didn't like uh socializing too much. And I just want to say this was at a. time when nobody was talking about this. Nobody was saying, "Oh, you know, you're. probably suffering from depression or. PTSD." You just had to figure it out. yourself. And your family and everybody. around you is like, "What has happened. to this guy?". Exactly. What I would call it shell. shock. Yes. Yes. So So any anyhow, you know you know this. went on and cost me two marriages.

Both my wives, which were wonderful. women, you know, you know, they they. tolerated me as much as they could. Then. they gave me the you know, my my walking. papers. And And And eventually I was. married to my third wife, Renee, and I. read Michael's book when it first came. out. Um and. What What What made you read it? Well, the title, How to Change Your. Mind. Okay. I thought it would be, you know, be very. helpful cuz I knew I needed to do. something different. And back then the.

dialogue for PTSD had started. Yeah. And you know, and I I I didn't. that there was something wrong with you, Bob? Could you feel that whatever this. is, it's not normal or not right? Absolutely. Had you tried other therapy? Yeah. Well, you know, you know, a little bit of talk therapy, which I. don't I don't think works too well. And. um you know, it's. the only things that would ever help. would be if I connected with the guys I.

served with in during the war. Yeah. And um. you know, spent time with them. I would. come away just feeling just wonderful. Yeah. Uh but that that that would only last. for a while. Yeah, cuz you'd be validated in the. experience. was when. I after I read Michael's book and I. learned about. psychedelics. from that, you know, before that I had. never taken anything like that. You. know, you know, I I like most people. thought that, you know, if you took.

psychedelics you had to worry about. jumping off a building. Right. Right. Right. You know, Michael dispels that pretty. quickly in his book. Yes. And so so reading the book was like. reading a novel, Oprah. I mean, this. thing just read so quick and it just. pulled me right through it. So, I I told. my wife I I'd like to try it. She had me hooked up with two guides. within 2 weeks. And uh I met with them in Hawaii. And I did three three different types of.

psychedelics over four or five days. And um after I was done. uh my wife could not believe the change. in me. She was the first to notice it. Man, I was I was now I was happier, you. know, I I like I like going out and. about. The my uh temper was far less. And um you know, I was I was a better. guy. Uh. From from from from these four from four. experiences, so what happened on the.

during the experience? Did you see yourself differently? Did. you experience the trauma? Did you. relive the experience? What What. actually happened? Can you tell us? All that. All that. You know, I um you know, there's. you know, I the first day I took. ayahuasca. Uh-huh. Uh and and and a lot of tears, a lot of. reliving, and a lot of. um. you know, seeing it. And then I took um.

um the second day I I I took psilocybin. And when I did psilocybin, the guide. fixed the teapot. And he says, "You. know, this teapot holds three cups, and. I I made it strong so you're only going. to need one cup." Well, Oprah, I I swear. this is true. I drank all three cups and. I ate the tea bags. Well. So, I was I was righteously stoned. Uh I flashed back. I actually seen.

things that happened. And um. then then it went. The next day we took off. And my wife and I went and played golf. and when when I was out on the golf. course, it was like to get back to your earlier. conversation, it was like the trees knew. I was there. The plants knew I was. there. And you know, I could I could. feel like a kinship there. Yeah. When I. when I put it on on the greens, you. know, it was like the grass said, "Hit.

it here, Bobby." And I did and went. [laughter]. up and then. So so so Bob, can I ask you this? Uh one. of the one of the things Michael shared. with us is that in one of his. experiences, he came away with this. feeling that love is everything. Did it. open you up to experience love, loving, being loved differently? Yeah, yeah, 100%. And and and you know, and it's not finding love, it's knowing. how to be loved. Oh. Mhm. Because when when you suffer from PTSD,

man, that's a you know, that that's you. you don't feel that way at all. Yeah. And so so so that was that that was big. So you and your wife Renee now have. donated millions, I understand, to. research, even funding a center on. psychedelic healing at Mount Sinai in. New New York. What are you hoping for? I am hoping that. you know, we're we're we're going to see. this gradually made legal. everywhere and becoming a normal.

treatment. Uh because when we do, I. think it will it it it it will be a. renaissance in the country. I mean, we. could have people in jail getting out. better than they went in. Um if they're they're they're they're. treated with psychedelics because it'll. get at the root causes, whatever all the. ugly stuff that is causing them to be. like they are. So Bob, can I ask you, do you continue. to try various forms of psychedelics or.

other drugs or was that experience that. 4 days enough for you? Well, you know, I I I have went through. the process another time. with two guys that I served in Vietnam. with, the squad leader and the machine. gunner. And so, I went through it again, which. reinforced what I did the first time. And you know, I'm happy to tell you. that, you know, when when I when I when. I did my had my psychedelic experience, it had been 49 years since the war, and.

I like to say this, I finally came home. Oh. And you know, I'm going to tell you that. when I I went through it with the. machine gunner and and the squad leader, they both came home. And I'm aware of a. number of others who have went through. it that I had nothing to do with. And. you know, they're totally different. people afterwards. Yeah, that's why you and Renee have. created the center. Oh, absolutely. I I I cannot think of a better gift to.

give the United States or the world than. to fund this stuff. Thank you, Bob, for joining us and. sharing that story, and maybe one day. we'll have that beer. All right, maybe we'll have a shot and a. beer, Oprah. [laughter]. A shot and a beer, okay. Thank you so. much. Thank you, Bob. The best to you and Renee. Let's meet. Dave and his daughter, Reagan. They are. zooming in from Utah. Dave, you say. psychedelics help you unlock. childhood trauma, and even is giving you.

a greater sense of purpose. Tell us how. is that so? That is so interesting. Thank you. It's great to meet you, Oprah. It's such an honor. And just want to thank you for all that. you've done and do for humanity. And. Michael, it's so great to meet you. I'm. a huge fan. But. yeah, so I. I kind of found [clears throat] myself. as I was tran- transitioning from my. late 40s into my 50s. I had a a pretty big basket of. existential questions and and also these. personal questions.

that. were really burdening me from from some. childhood traumas. And and so. I received some advice. from a trusted person in my life. And he. said, "You know, you should try. psychedelics and specifically. psilocybin. I think it'd be a really great. experience for you.". And. I thought about that and actually in the. past when I was about 17 years old, I I. had a recreational experience with.

psilocybin. And it was it was great. I. was with my all my dear friends and we. were up in the mountains, my favorite. place to be and. Did the trees talk? [laughter]. Oh, Brett, everything talked. Okay. It was really incredible. I saw grids. It was It was great. Okay. It was really really great. But anyway, the memory of that experience and being. so positive, I thought, "Wow, I I never. thought. that that could be a modality to, you.

know, really focus on getting some. answers." And. I had this very intentional set of. questions and I had such an incredible. and specific experience. One that I mean, I can put myself back. there at any moment and it just it it. resets my life. So, can I ask you this Can I ask you. this cuz I I don't know anybody who or. maybe I do know somebody who's done it, but I never asked this question. Are you.

You're able to ask questions and people. can ask you questions while you're doing. it? You're You're conscious enough to be. able to do that? Absolutely. You can hear what other people are. saying. So, I always thought it was like. you're off into your own world and. you're having your trip and then you're. not a part of whatever this world is. I had a combination experience where you. can be um you can be out and in. communication with your guide. Okay. Um I recommend a guide. I agree,

Michael, 100% and be very thoughtful. through that process. That the setting and the. It's so important. Yeah. is so important. Yeah, I mean we we want to control. ourselves and our environment. And if. we're not completely If we don't feel. completely safe, we're not going to let. our minds travel. Yeah. Uh and the guide is looking out for your. body. Roland Griffiths used to say, "You're going out You're going out to. outer space. Don't worry, we're right. here. We're mission control. We'll keep. an eye on your body. Yeah.

so your mind can travel.". Reagan, you're nodding. Did you have a. similar experience? I heard you tried. just for fun and then it turned out to. be more than that. Yeah, so my experience was actually. quite different. I actually had watched. Michael, your documentary on Netflix and. it completely changed my view on. just psychedelics. And then I had also. spoke to my dad about his experience. So, abroad during college in Amsterdam,

I was like, "You know what? This is a. great time. I'm on vacation. Let me just. do a little bit, see what it does." And. just a little bit of background, I have. struggled with OCD, anxiety, um some. depression symptoms kind of my whole. life. And at first when I took the. substance, I didn't really notice. anything and I thought, "Okay, maybe I. didn't take enough.". What was the substance? Was it. It was It was mushrooms. It was psilocybin. Yeah. And then as the day went on, I realized.

it was the first time in my life that my. intrusive thoughts and my racing. thoughts and all of them completely went. away. It was the first time in my life I. was able to. be grounded and in the moment and just. enjoy my own company and not be scared. of. going to pop in my mind and it really. opened my mind to, you know, going and. experiencing it with a guide and.

kind of using it as a replacement for. some other methods that I have tried in. the past. Mhm. Any questions you have for Michael? Here's your chance. Actually. Yeah. Yes. So, do you think that we're. approaching a new frontier in medicine. regarding. these experiments and is it a way that. we could potentially help individuals. like myself who struggle with anxiety? Yeah, I'm very hopeful that that is. happening. Um we have a lot of research.

We need more. Um but all the treatments we have, SSRIs, etc., really only deal with. symptoms. They don't deal with causes. We have no drugs that deal with causes. of mental illness and. and actually provide cures. And this. at least in these initial studies. uh and these are trials with a couple. hundred people. They're not huge yet. Um. we're seeing positive and lasting. results. You asked about OCD,

obsessive-compulsive disorder. There was. a trial at Yale. uh using psilocybin and um people had. permanent relief. And and. you know, one of the questions that I I. had myself is, wait a minute, this is a. little suspicious. This one substance. works on OCD and anxiety and depression. and addiction and anorexia. This seems a. little too good to be true. And I posed. this question to a very well-known. psychiatrist who'd been head of the. National Institute of Mental Health.

And I said, is this a panacea? Is this. for real? And he said, well, how do you. how do you why do you think all those. different things are. uh different illnesses? They may be. different manifestations of the same. kind of brain. A brain that is stuck in. patterns of behavior and thought that it. can't get out of. And maybe what the. psychedelics were doing. Right? It was like the light bulb went. off. That's a light bulb moment right there. We are and we are victims of our habits.

And it may be they may just be different. symptoms rather than different. disorders. Um so that that I understood because. from the same thing. Yeah, from a rigidity of thought. And. what psychedelics do in the brain. Reagan, you had that aha moment, too, right? Yeah. Definitely. And it's uh. I mean I've done talk therapy and a. bunch of other therapies, but I think. coming out of the experience I realized. Oh my gosh, it's.

your point, Michael. It's all a. manifestation of this one. quote-unquote disorder that I have. And. this drug it's literally like magic. I. was like, how is how is this possible? Yeah, I know. It it it does feel like. magic. Yes. But I so I think that what psychedelics. seem to do is make the brain more. plastic, able to learn. There's a. beautiful metaphor that a scientist gave. me once that think of think of your mind. as a snow-covered hill. And your thoughts as sleds going down.

that hill. And over time the grooves get. deeper and deeper. And you can't go down. the hill without falling into one of. those grooves. The psychedelics are like. a fresh snowfall. It fills all the. grooves. You can take a new path down. the hill. Ooh, I love that metaphor. Dave, did you have a question? So Michael, your book um and your. research just it gets into the tradition. and history of these drugs so well. And. I just wondered, how do we integrate. psychedelics into the mainstream mental.

health treatments? Yeah, that's a good question. How do we preserve the spiritual aspects. while we're mean kind of trying to segue. it into mainstream medical, Yeah. that's been a bit questions. Yeah, that's a great question. a wonderful question and there's a lot. of kind of suspicion and hostility in. among scientists and medical. professionals. at the word spiritual. Yeah. Yet, you can make a case that many. things we call mental disorders are. spiritual diseases. I mean, addiction is. a spiritual disease.

And um. what is at the root of a lot of these. disorders is a lack of connection. A. sense of isolation, separation, you. know, you're you're you're you're. encased in your ego. And so it's I I. think we have to educate medical. professionals that that spiritual. approaches have medical value and that's. not the way they think. And I think the word spiritual always. hangs people up to. I mean, I got so. much criticism back in the '80s and '90s. and all early '00s.

by talk just using the word spirit. Oh, yeah. on broadcast television. I think the. word consciousness is a better word. Yeah. I think consciousness, the altering. more scientific. Yeah, yeah, sounds more scientific and. and that is actually what is happening. in the spiritual experience. You're. elevating, enhancing, opening your. consciousness to experience life and. yourself differently. That's what I. think. And there's one other difficulty about. incorporating this in our in our medical.

system and that is that. it is psychedelic therapy is not just. about taking a psychedelic. It really. should be called and often is. psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. because the support of the guide or the. therapist is critical to its success. And the FDA, which regulates drugs in. our country, does not a drug only. regulates drugs. They don't regulate. therapy. So how are they going to deal with this. thing? It's a square peg in a round hole.

and that's going to be a challenge. Um. I think we can work through that. I don't think we're here yet. We're. certainly not here yet because like. everything, once people start using it, it's just like the you know, anti-obesity drugs, then people create. their own, you know, pharmacies for. making the anti-obesity drugs and people. are are doing it, you know, on the side. and it's not. uh you know, authorized and stuff. And I. think it's it's dangerous for people to.

have these kind of explorations without. a guide. Yeah, I mean I I think if you're going. to use a high dose of psychedelics, you. need to use a guide. Um I mean people. can take a, you know, a couple mushrooms. and wander in the woods and they'll be. fine. But um at a high dose, there are. risks. There I mean we should be. realistic about it. There Some people do. have serious psychological problems. Bad trips that last a very long time. Um. guides can help you work through that.

Um they give you very specific advice. when things get very dark because I. think we should not under underplay the. fact that these experiences can be very. challenging. Frightening. Um and that can be. productive, but in the process, you can. encounter demons. to help you. Especially if you're a. person who has demons. Yeah. Yeah. And you you're taking it because. you know you have demons. That's right. Yeah. And the guides know exactly what to tell. you to get through that. I mean they.

have very specific, they call them. flight instructions. Um. and they'll tell you, "If you see a. monster, don't turn and run away. Go. right up to it and say, 'What do you. have to teach me? Why are you in my. mind?'". And you will pass through that dark into. a lighter place. Um. That is my favorite phrase on earth. Like I want to cry right now because. anytime there is a challenge in my life, that is the first question that I ask. What are you here to teach me? Yeah. What is this for? Or if I'm in the. middle of a bad dream, I'll say, "Okay,

what are you here to teach me?" So. And that attitude of curiosity rather. than fear and anxiety changes. everything. Yeah. It's not even just curiosity. It's. like I want to know what it is so I can. get out of it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. In and through is the other thing guides. are always saying, "In and through.". Yeah. Well, thank you all. You are sharing. here today has has really been. informative for all of us. Thank you so. much. to meet you. Wonderful to meet you, Dave and Reagan. Thank you. Good luck.

So you hear a lot about microdosing. If. the Oprah show was still on, we'd be. doing shows, I think, on microdosing. moms and parents. [laughter]. parents. There are a lot of them. Microdosing and parents in the suburbs. having shroom parties. What is What is. your take on that? What is that? Microdosing? What is that? is a very different approach to using. psychedelics. It's not guided. It's a. very tiny dose. It's like a 10% of a. normal dose. Um, and people do it not every single.

day. They'll do it a couple days and. then a day off because you build up a. tolerance. And many people report relief from. depression. uh from it. There is not a lot of. science yet on it. It's very hard to. study because no. no university in institutional review. board is going to let you give any. amount of LSD to somebody and let them. drive up drive off in their car. It's a It's a It's an It's a dose that. you don't even feel. It's subperceptual.

Um. Where does everybody getting this stuff. anyway? a good question. I don't know. I don't. know that. Um. But uh it's around and people are. selling. uh gummies with psilocybin even though. it's not legal. They're They're They're. around. They're on the internet. Um so. microdosing may be a placebo effect. Um it may be and the placebo effect is. real. Make no mistake. People get. better. You know, if I hand you if you.

have back trouble and I hand you a a. sugar pill, you will feel better. It's a very powerful effect and and it. multiplies when you when you are. microdosing something like LSD which. already has this magic aura about it. So, it may be that um but we don't know. yet. The science is not in yet. Natalie's joining us from California. Natalie, I hear you turn to psychedelics. to cope with grief. How did that go for. you? How did that work out for you? Oh, Oprah and Michael, it is an honor to.

be here and Michael, [clears throat] I. have to say that uh when my. son and daughter-in-law heard that I was. going to be on the show, they're big. fans of yours on the podcast and they. literally squealed when they. [laughter]. thought that I was going to meet you and. Oprah. And Oprah, I just have to tell. you that you have been a guiding light. on my path to purpose and of being of. service for eight and I just want to. thank you. Oh, thank you for that, Natalie. Thank.

you. Thank you. So, I hear you. what's your question? My question is Michael, what is your. advice for someone going further with. this experience legally? So, my experience. um. was I I knew I was aware about the use. of psychedelics for mental wellness um. but never seriously considered it for. myself until I experienced my life's.

greatest fear and that was losing my. father back in 2018 and um he was my. rock, my my solid place and um initially. when he passed, I felt his presence. all the time. He was right there with me. and um it was amazing. And then. gradually that that presence started to. dissipate. And um I went into a deeper. level of grief and just couldn't really.

seem to get out of it. I tried other. things. I tried uh going to a float. tank, which was kind of like a sensory. deprivation experience, which made it. actually worse. And uh my son. uh suggested psilocybin. And um I I went. for it and uh it was out in nature. and. it was an incredible experience. It. strengthened.

my level of faith. Um. the colors in nature were brighter. I. saw God in everything. And I just had this. incredible heart opening. of just. and. Yeah. And it's similar to you, Michael, where you uh mentioned uh doing. psilocybin um to deal with the grief or. of your father. And.

in 2018, in fact. The thing for me is I I'm a mother. I. have uh three adult children, two. adorable grandkids, and a wonderful. husband, and they all came up. It was It. was just. so much gratitude, so much peace. And I. came away with it just completely. transformed. And the way that I can say that. that transformation occurred is that. there was a stark contrast between the.

truth of who I really am, which is love. as well, and um my ego. That ego. Yeah. Stark contrast. I think I think I think one of the. things that Michael emphasizes in the. book is that the ego. and who you believe yourself to be are. not I I I I identical. It They're not. And that that separation That is the. biggest thing that happens with most. people, I think. such a valuable lesson because you don't. It It It teaches you you you I'm not.

identical to my ego, so I don't have to. listen to that voice in my head. It's. like, all right, that's that voice. Disregard. Yeah. Yeah. And so your question is is was about. what is the advice for going deeper in. the journey? Is that the question? Yeah. Going further. Further in the journey and further into. the journey. legally. Legally. Legally. Well, there is a way to do it. legally. Well, there are two ways. One. is uh. there many many trials going on around.

this country. Um universities and other. institutions, and you can go on uh. trials.gov. and and and search psilocybin or MDMA, and you may find a trial that you. qualify for. Um the other way is to go. to Oregon or Colorado. These are two. states that have made uh a guided. psilocybin experiences. I can't say legal cuz it's still a. federal crime, but it's state legal. Um.

and and fairly safe. um. from from a legal point of view. And. there are people there who are uh have. to get licenses as guides, the growers. are licensed, the facilities where. they're administered is licensed. So, you could search both those states, and. those would be places where you could. have a a legal guided experience. Thank you, Natalie. Yeah, thank you, Natalie. Thank you, and thanks to your kids who. squilled when they heard you were.

talking to Michael. [laughter]. GIVE THEM MY BEST. THANK YOU. In the book you write that. you had. you quote you say some kind of spiritual. experience. Do you think that there. obviously, I'm just asking the question. but I already know the answer. There is. a difference between a religious. spiritual experience and one induced by. a drug's chemical impact on the brain. And that that's the first question and. does the spiritual experience depend.

upon what your religious belief is or is. not? You know, I always saw myself as not a. spiritual person. Mhm. And and I also had a misunderstanding of. what spiritual meant. could you be that when you're so. connected to plants? I know. Well, because I thought spirit. to be spiritual meant believing in the. supernatural. Mhm. Um and I was, you know, not. I was a. very grounded, you know, I had a very material view of. reality. But I realized that was wrong,

that you can be spiritual without. believing in the supernatural. And that. the essence of spiritual. is um connection. Deep, profound connection with something. other than yourself. And and so when I redefine it that way, yeah, these were powerful spiritual. experiences. And I came to understand. the opposite of spiritual is not is is. not material or materialistic. The. opposite of spiritual is egotistical. It's so darn true.

[laughter]. It is the so darn true. stands in the way of our spiritual. development. think we have to explain what ego is. because. uh until 2008 I always thought that ego. was, you know, you were being arrogant. or you were, you know, overly. self-assured. Now I know it's that voice. in the head that is constantly going we. all have it that is constantly it's a, you know, a gazillion thoughts that are. judging and it's measuring and it's.

yeah, it's that part of you that is. separate from the real you. And it's important to us. It's There's a. reason we have all these egos. It it you. know, it gets books written. It gets TV. shows produced. Um. but it also gets in the way of. connecting to others. think it's possible to that we can reach. these same levels of revelations and. consciousness and understandings about. our connection to the universe, to. ourselves, and to each other without.

psychedelics? Yeah, I think people do it through. meditation. Yeah. I think psychedelics in some way are a. shortcut. Um a lot of people have. trouble meditating. They're not sure. they're doing it right. They can't They. can't. They can't And if you got anxiety, you. can't even sit still long enough to do. it. That's right. Or if you have OCD, you're. going to have intrusive thoughts when. you're meditating. So, I think it kind. of it it it kind of breaks people. through to a place where they can. meditate successfully, but without. question. And people have had these. mystical spiritual experiences without. drugs. Mhm. Experiences of nature can can do it.

Experiences of art can do it. The mystical experience, which is what. this technically is called in the in the. literature, is. can be approached from a lot you know, there are a lot of different doors. Um psychedelics are just one of them. Mhm. You know, I'm really grateful to be able. to talk to you today because you've. because first of all, you're so smart. and you've written so many books about. what our society is collectively.

wrestling with. And I'm wondering. um I actually was at a at a seminar this. summer. and the head of Stanford was talking. about a class that they were going to. start there. and the class was going to be called. What does it mean to have a well-lived. life? And I thought, wow, I would love to. teach that class. I'd love to teach that. class. I'd be a part of that class. And. so, I that as a question. What do you. when you.

with all the things that you now know as. you sit here about to enter a new. decade? Yeah. Come on in, the water's fine. Come on, it's It's going to be all right. Yeah. Um. what what. to you defines. a well-lived life? I think being present for it. Yeah. We spend so much of our time worrying, thinking about the future, thinking. about the past, that we let the present. go by. And um for me, that's one of the.

I I. Not to say I've mastered this at all. Um. but my psychedelic experience, and which. has been followed by a meditation. practice. I I. That's kind of Like psychedelics are not. a practice. You can't You're not going. to do it that many times. But you need a practice to reinforce it. And meditation. it seems to be the tool that helps you. open the door. Exactly. Exactly. But after the door is. open, you want to keep this this way of. thinking and these memories alive. One.

of the things I meditate about very. often are psychedelic experiences I've. had. They're um. They're They're They're the stories of. you, and they're they're endlessly You. can replay them endlessly. One of the. interesting things about psychedelic. experiences, it's not like dreams, which. are hard to remember. You remember. these. These These experiences are. indelible. I can I can summon images. from my experiences on psychedelics. parents as the trees.

Yeah. Listen, you wrote that so vividly, I see. your parents as the trees, okay? [laughter]. Well, thank you. Michael's book, How to. Change Your Mind, as well as all of his. other thought-provoking books are. available wherever you buy your books. So, thank you to all of our guests for. zooming in here with us with your own. fascinating experiences on psychedelics. I think the the fact that Bob lived for. 49 years. And I love that line, Bob, when you said, "And I finally came home.

I finally came home." I thank you all. for listening, and it's my hope that. these conversations help to inform and. enhance your life in some way. You know, I've always tried to go through life. with a with a with a curious, open mind. So, I thank you all for taking the time. to spend your time with us here. And be. sure, if you can, to subscribe to the. Oprah podcast on YouTube. Uh that is, if you don't want to miss an. episode. And follow us on Spotify or.

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your. podcasts. Go well. Bye for now. How to change your mind. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.