Oprah and Gary Zukav: What Is Your Soul’s Purpose?

Hi there. I'm glad to be with you here. on the Oprah podcast, and I think we can. all feel that. we're living in profoundly defining. times. A lot of uncertainty politically, socially, morally. Doing any kind of. change or challenge in my life, I have. learned to. come back to the center of myself, to go. inward and get closer to the source with. a capital S. of all things. And.

check my own internal GPS. And a major contributor in helping me to. do this is this book, The Seat of the. Soul by one of the most ins-. insightful spiritual teachers of our. times. He's a New York Times. best-selling author, thought leader, Gary Zukav. Now, Gary appeared on the. Oprah Winfrey show and SuperSoul Sunday. over 40 times. I kept inviting him back. as I was expanding my own spiritual.

insights along with our audience. He first appeared on the Oprah show. during a time when talking about. spirituality on daytime television was. uncharted territory. I know you all are. on all the social media platforms now, and everybody's talking about the soul. and about spirit and about wellness and. about the light. Well, let me just tell. you, in the early '90s, this nobody was. talking about it, and you were. considered um it was not a good thing to.

be talking about it, a lot of people. felt. I got all kinds of backlash for. it. People accusing me of trying to. start my own church, not understanding. what the word spiritual meant, confusing spirituality with religion. Uh. so many people were, and my producers. were convinced that America was not. ready for a conversation about. spirituality, and certainly and not. about talking about the soul. But I always operate through my own.

instinct and my own intuition and I felt. deeply that the audience was ready. And. I believe this because. I was ready and I always just saw myself. as a surrogate for the audience. And here's how I knew. After every. single show, I would sit and talk to the. audience and every day without fail, somebody from some part of the country. would stand up and say, "Um, you know, I've done everything I. was supposed to do. I went to school, I. had two children or 2. five children and and the I have the.

picket fence and the cars, I have the. swimming pool, I have the square. footage, but I still feel empty inside. I feel like there's something more. I don't have meaning, I don't have. purpose. Is this all there is? So, those of you. that are older know that is that all. there is, my friend, is a famous song. Well, that theme is this all there is. would come up over and over and over. Something more, something's missing, is. this it? A lot of women were sharing. that with me after the show and that's.

how I knew that there was a yearning to. connect to something bigger and that. bigger is the reason why we're all here. But people don't know what to call it. So, let's listen to a part of my very. first interview. with Gary Zukav when he explains what. the soul is and why we're here. >> Look at it this way. Every fleet of. ships that sails has a mothership. One. ship that knows where all of them are.

going and sets the direction for all of. those ships to sail. >> Mhm. >> [snorts]. >> This doesn't mean that the mothership. determines what happens on each of the. other ships in the fleet. Life on one of the ships might be mostly. pleasant. On yet another ship, it might be mostly. unpleasant. Now, imagine the mothership is the. biggest ship you can imagine. It's a. city afloat, magnificent. And now imagine that the rest of the. boats, the ships are not really ships. but little boats. >> Mhm.

>> The mothership is your soul and you are. one of the little boats. The mothership knows why. >> That's a very nice analogy, really. >> The mothership knows why you are in the. water. You may not know all of the time. The mothership knows. why you encounter storms. Your job, while you have the awesome. privilege of being a little boat, is to learn how to sail in the same.

direction as your mothership. Because you can choose and create. anything you want, you can sail in the. opposite direction if you want. That is a sure way. to find rough water. But as you sail in the direction that. your mothership wants to sail, your life. fills with meaning and purpose. and love. You are excited about being. alive. You are excited about the people you are. with and what you are doing.

>> Cuz you're following the mothership. >> That's right. Meaning is your inner compass that. always aligns itself with the direction. that your mothership wants to go. >> Okay, meaning. >> Meaning your inner sense of meaning and. purpose. >> Is Say that again. >> Meaning is your inner compass. >> Mhm. Got it. Got that much. >> And as you follow your inner sense of. meaning,

you are. sailing in the same direction that your. mothership wants you to sail. >> Okay, so all the people who cuz I feel. like I'm following the mothership. I do. feel that. And that's a beautiful. imagine analogy. I don't know where that. came from for you, but that's really. good. Thank you for that. And that's. that's wonderful for so many people who. have trouble with religious terms. because they feel religion has failed. them for whatever reason. But what about. all the people who don't feel that there. is any meaning, who are lost?

>> Try something else. I was one of those people. I was angry, bitter, disdainful, judgmental, controlling. Um. I think I left a few out, but. >> that's the way I looked at the world. I. was doing the things I thought I should. be doing. And my life didn't have any meaning to. it. And I used to think, is this all there. is? I like that song. It expresses me. >> Mhm. >> There must be more to life than this.

That's what a life feels like. when you are not paying attention inside. to what you really want to do. Maybe you are creating a business. because your father wants you to. Maybe. you are having a family because your. mother wanted you to. >> Or maybe you were having a family. because everything in society says that. when you get to be a certain age, that's. what you're supposed to do. And you. never were allowed or never felt you had. the permission or just never did look. inside yourself and ask yourself, what.

do I really want? >> Exactly. >> Mhm. What do I really want? That's the. ultimate question and what I now know is. that we all want the same thing. Everybody wants to be able to live to. the highest, fullest expression. of yourself as a human being. That's. what you want, that's what I want. And. what we all really want, we may find it hard to articulate, is to. be authentically empowered to do that. Authentic power. And Gary defines.

authentic power is when your personality. comes to serve the energy of your soul. When that little ship is actually. following the mothership. That's the only power that lasts. forever. You lose everything else. Authentic power is when you are in. pursuit of the energy that your soul. came to offer the planet. And when you. get that, you no longer are chasing after all the. wrong things. And this same. conversation, one of the greatest.

lessons from the moment I read it, is. the principle of intention. I believe. that the principle of intention, uh which is aligned with cause and. effect, is one of the greatest spiritual. principles guiding the forces of our. planet. And it is behind every decision. in my life now, intention. When I truly. got this, everything changed for me. This is the. foundational principle that rules my. life. Let's listen. >> The resonating moment of clarification.

came on page 38, where you say, you're talking about karma and you say. every action, every thought, and every. feeling is motivated by an intention. And that intention is a cause that. exists as one with an effect. And if we. participate in the cause, it is not. possible for us not to participate in. the effect. And I took from that that we. have the world that we have created.

based upon our conscious and unconscious. intention to do so. Is that correct? >> Precisely. >> Let's talk about cause and effect. It is. the single hardest To me, it is it seems. to be the simplest law, and I think most. people, certainly the American culture, is aware of. do unto others as you would have them do. unto you, which to me is the law of. karma, um simplified. And people are aware of. that, but are not aware that it applies.

to every single aspect of your being. When, um you know, I knew less, I used. to think, "Oh well, I'll talk about her. because I don't care if she talks about. me. Cuz if that's all that's going to. happen, me talking about her, it means. she's going to talk about me back. That's okay if she talks about me, cuz I. don't like her anyway." But but it. doesn't work that way. Obviously no, it. doesn't work that way. That it's about. the energy that you put out comes back. and it comes back in its own way, but in. direct proportion to what you put out. >> Exactly.

Here's a device that everyone's seen. When this ball swings out, you see this one. >> Uh-huh. >> registers the effect. Now, this is cause and effect. This is. the cause and that's the effect. Suppose. we take these away for the moment. >> Mhm. >> And we only have two left and we do the. same thing. Now you see there's a cause and there's. an effect. There's a physical cause and. there's a physical effect. Intention is. what causes the effect. Intention is not.

physical, you can't see it. You can't. weigh it or package it. >> Mhm. >> You can't market it. You can't do. anything with it that the five senses. can register, but intention is what. causes that to happen. Here's another ball. This is the law of cause and effect. I. say law because it always happens. It's. just what you described. >> It's going to happen no matter who you. are. or what you do. >> That's right. If there is an effect, if. there's a cause, there's an effect and. the two are one. >> Which means.

nobody is beyond this law. >> The intention may be to uh. be kind to a friend. >> Mhm. >> The friend experiences kindness and you. experience kindness in your life. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Now, suppose you have another intention. Suppose you want to get the most that. you can out of this world. Here's the intention, there's the. effect. You exploit the world and you. experience being exploited. Do you see? >> I I see.

>> Wherever the intent Whoever sets the. intention, experiences the effects of. that intention. So, if I intend. >> And you can never have an intention. without an effect. >> Precisely. >> Yes. >> And if someone else feels the effect, you will feel the effect. In the East, that's called karma. Here. in the West, we call it the golden rule. >> Mhm. >> So, if I want to be kind to you, you are. going to have the experience of someone. with the intention of wanting to be kind. to you.

And I myself, in my life, am going to. experience people being kind to me. >> But not necessarily from the person you. gave the kindness to. >> No, not necessarily from that person. If. you want to see what how you were. creating in the past, look around you. Do you have loving people in your life? Then you have been loving in your life. Do you have selfish people or angry. people in your life? Then look at. yourself, and you will see that you've. had anger in your life. And self-concern. So, if you are an angry person, you are. going to draw to yourself angry people.

You feel better being angry if you're an. angry person, if you're around people. who are angry, they understand you. And. you understand them. If you're selfish, if you're greedy, you will draw to you avaricious people. because you understand one another. Now, hell is not something that you're. assigned to against your will. Hell, if. you want to look at it that way, is a. place that you go of your own free will. >> Of your choices, of your choices. >> Yes. How hellish.

How How much of a hell can you live in. than to live in a world in which no one. cares for you? In which everyone wants to exploit you, in which people look at you as an. object. That is hell. And if you look at other people that. way, that is the world that you will. live in. >> Mhm. So, this is the way I see it. In your own private life, in. and in our collective lives, we. experience the world's reality based on. what we all intended. That's in your.

personal life, what you personally. intended, and collectively, we have the. world that we have because this is what. we all intended. And understanding that. principle changed my life, personally. and professionally. So much so that when. I first read this in the book, I called. all my producers together on The Oprah. Show, and I said from this day forward, we're not going to produce another show. We're not going to put another thing on. the air without a clarity of intention. So everybody who is coming up with your.

ideas for your shows, I want at the top. of the page, what is your intention for. the show? And your intention has to. align with my intention. Meaning, I have to find some level of. truth in whatever it is you are. presenting, so that I can sit in the seat and be. clear about. why I'm there, and why I'm speaking, and. I'm not making. being a being a phony person. And I.

remember. one producer saying, many weeks later, because this really. threw a lot of the producers off, like, "Oh, now we got to find the guest. Now. we got to book the guest. Now we got to. have an intention for booking the. guest." And he came to me and said, "Okay, we have Brad Pitt." And I said, "What is in your What is your. intention?" And And this is Terry Gold. Terry said, "My intention is for you to. sit in the chair and Brad to sit in the. chair, and for both of you all to talk. to each other, and everybody's going to. be very happy about it." Okay, I accept.

that. It's Brad Pitt. And. my point is, we had the number one show. in the United States for 25 years. because we made the shift to lead with. intention. And after every show, we'd. have a conversation with the producers. gathered in my office about did we. fulfill that intention, and how we could. make it better. >> Julianne Hough, you know her as an Emmy. Award-winning dancer, an actress, host, producer, entrepreneur, all those.

things. Us dancing on stage together. I. haven't seen you in a while. Hello. Joining us via Zoom. I did not know that. you were a big Gary fan. I I I hear you. read The Seat of the Soul during a. chapter of your life. that you called the death hole pit of. era. >> You got it, Ms. Winfrey. First of all, I. love you. I'm so happy to see you again. after. >> Good to see you in. >> our beautiful time on stage in 2020. But. yes, that was a very specific era and I.

found this book, The Seat of the Soul by. Gary and it truly was hitting the. moment. It was the perfect timing. >> What was going on in your life though? What was the death hole pit? >> Well, it was it was after, you know, pandemic was happening. I had gone. through a divorce. I had lost my my. dogs. Um a lot of outside circumstances. that were actually an activator. of the unraveling of what I am now.

understanding to be more of my. personality and reaching to that. that seat of my soul. And so, it was. this unraveling of all these outside. circumstances that I had put into place. as a form of protection, as a form of. These are the things that are going to. keep me safe. This is the thing that I. know. This is my personality. This is. familiar. This is how I know I can. receive love. This is how I know I can, um. you know, continue on in my life. And.

un- unfortunately/fortunately, as that started to unravel, I was in. that death hole pit of for quite. some time. >> Wow. >> Just sitting there. And I think that. that was that was truly one of the most. important seasons of my life because it. gave me the time, the space, and the the solitude to really find. the wisdom, I think, of of my own soul.

And this book was also one of those key. those key liberating moments where I. felt like I didn't have the words to. articulate. Obviously, I used my body as. my language. But the the words that used. and uses. just made me feel like, "Oh, I get it. I. understand. I have been living from my. personality and trying to connect to my. soul and having moments of inspiration,

but the familiarity. was so strong of what I felt was safe, but was actually keeping me from my my. purpose, my mission, my my my. connection.". >> You say, I know you told our producers. that Gary's book has shifted how you. make decisions in all of your. relationships. And then that happened to. me, too. How so for you? >> Well, I love that Gary talks about soul. agreements. I think that a lot of the.

times, you know, you can see these. outside circumstances, relationships, whether they be romantic or you know, friendships, even the way that. >> Working relationships, working. relationships, all of it. >> relationships, everything. And I think. what I'm so grateful for now is like, "Wow, this is This is an opportunity. This is a soul agreement. This is This. is a moment for me to level up and learn. something, not with what I can get, but. what I can what I can learn." And I see.

these challenges sometimes in. relationships as, "Wow, I I guess I It's. like a little game." I'm like, "Ooh, I. guess I'm like ready to level up and I'm. I'm here to learn something. And when I. look back in hindsight, I see them as. the most beautiful blessings in my life. versus the hardest uh. even though they were very challenging. and probably the hardest seasons of my. life, I can look back now and say like. wow, this was this completely.

transformed my life and I'm so grateful. for this connection. >> Did it also help you have more. compassion for yourself? >> It helped me have for myself and others, you know? I think there's also another. chapter in there. um that talks about like predator and. prey, you know? I think sometimes, you. know, we can be a victim feeling like. you know, everybody's out to get me and. can I just get a break? Um.

but I think when you can realize that we. all play that role at some point even. with the best intentions sometimes. >> Mhm. >> Uh. you can you can have compassion for. others as as sort of like that's their. behavior, that's not their soul, that's. that's their personality. And also my. And also my own, you know? And like I'm. not perfect, I don't intend to be. perfect, but I I hope that I will have. enough awareness that I can be more of.

an an observer of my behavior so that my. soul, which I also love, which is when. your personality can serve your soul. So. and that's the highest embodiment of. like. of yeah, your your true authentic power. >> Authentic power. That's the greatest lesson. That is the. great That was my great takeaway. Was. that yours, too? Yes. >> Absolutely my my takeaway and it's it's. so incredible when you can feel it. You. know, and I think.

you know, when we were on tour together, I felt like I was tapping into my soul's. purpose, and soul's mission. With. Kinergy, and and I think because of. these outside circumstances, I didn't. have I didn't build my muscle enough to. feel that strength in order to hold. that. And so, I went into familiar for a. little while. And now, again, with those opportunities. and that time to sit in that death hole. pit of. >> [laughter]. >> Um. you know, it gives you that time to to.

to to build and to grow that muscle and. to trust. And I think that was the. hardest lesson for me was to to actually. trust that I was worthy. That my soul's. mission and my dharma was worthy enough. to be seen. And and so, yeah, I think. now I feel like. as you mentioned, I host, I produce, I. dance, I sing. >> All those things. >> They're all my personality, but they are. here to serve really, truly this next.

chapter. and bigger purpose of my life. >> Yes. May I say I'm so sorry about that. you had to sit in the death pit of. you know what? And I'm really sorry to. hear about that that your that the your. dogs killed by coyotes. >> Correct. >> I know. I I live in California, and it's like we. never let Sadie out by her by her It's. just like watching a child all the time. Yes. >> Absolutely it is. And and again, you. know, those were really, really hard.

times, and. >> And coyotes are walking around in broad. daylight in the middle of the day now. >> Or park, you know? Going to the street. store, yeah. >> Yes, they're out. Thank you so much for. talking to us. Thank you. >> Of course. Mwah. >> Mwah. Thank you. >> Thanks. Sending you love. >> Chef Todd Anderson is joining us from. Southern California. Todd, I hear you're a news uh Zukov. listener. And uh that you listened to. the audio book of Seat of the Soul for.

the first time just 3 months ago. How. did you How did How are you just now. discovering Gary Zukav? >> Great question. First of all, thank you. so much for having me on the show. Thank. you for actually doing this podcast. So, I was introduced to The Seat of the Soul. by my hairdresser. We tend to sit down. and have these amazing conversations. that are building and uplifting, and she. referred me to check out the book. So, without understanding what the book was. about, Seat to Your Soul, I really.

didn't comprehend what that meant. And. so, I dove into the audiobook, and my. first aha moment was when I got to maybe. chapter 3. And so, my entire life, I've. heard people say, "Follow your soul. Listen to your soul. Let your soul guide. you." And I just didn't know what that. meant. I didn't know how to connect with. my soul. And so, my aha moment was. finding out that our personalities is. disconnected, or separate from our soul. And that our our personality is driven.

by a lot of outside forces. And so, as I. started diving into the book and start. realizing I have had moments where I. felt connected to my soul, and I felt so. empowered. And so, that's what's driven. me to want to dive into the book more. I'm on number four times listening to. the audio, and it's just one of those. books that are life-changing. I feel. like every time I listen to it, I learn. more. And it's something I just want to. continue to build on top of, but it's. just such an incredible book. >> Okay, what is the thing that has stuck.

with you that you have learned? What is the the major lesson? >> Well, you know, I really resonated with you at the. beginning of the book when you told your. story about how you were a people. pleaser, and how you your story when you. went to I think it was Spain, and it was. just a quick round trip, and really. wasn't fulfilling. And so, I resonate. with that a lot because I'm a people. person, a people pleaser. And so, a lot. of times I'll put my goals and my family.

and things to the side and say yes right. away. And a good example is I had a good. friend of mine reach out to me and asked. me to do a cooking demo. And before I. even thought about logistics or. anything, I said yes. And um. I tend to do this a lot. And so I get to. the event. >> you right there. Let me stop you right. there. Why did you immediately say yes without. even thinking about it? Why did you say. yes? >> Great question. And I think it's. something that, you know, followed me. through childhood that I just feel like.

I always have to say yes for people to. possibly valid, you know, so I can feel. validated or feel allow them to know. that I got your back and I support you. And so I think it's just always been. ingrained in me to say yes, you know, to. friends and family and people that I. care about. >> Mhm. Well, what what what I now do is I stop. and I say, "Let me get back to you.". Or give me a minute. Let me pray on it.

One important thing to say is, "Let me. check my schedule." You of all people. can say that. And that just gives you a. moment to breathe and to separate. yourself from an immediate cuz you're. right, you don't know the logistics, you. don't know, maybe you have something. else on that day, maybe you have other. commitments, maybe you are not going to. want to whenever that day comes around. But saying, you know, "Let me pray on it." I used to. literally go pray on it. Or give me a. moment and let me look at my schedule. and see what I can do. Uh gives you a.

moment to decide whether intentionally. you want to do this. So here's the big. lesson I learned. from intention that helped me cure, not. cure, but certainly manage my disease to. please cuz I'm not saying that there. still aren't sometimes that I say yes. when I would rather say no, but I never. say yes when I'd rather say no without. thinking about it first. And I always. think about what is my intention. And if.

my intention is to serve the other. person. in making them think I'm a nice person. or to allow them to feel like uh feel. better about me, then I don't do it [clears throat]. because that's just your ego wanting. itself to be fed so that the person. says, "Oh, she's a nice person. He's a. nice person. My god, you can count on. him. Every time you ask for something, he's going to drop what he's doing and. he's going to come to you." So,

what happens is I found out once you are. that person, they keep coming back. They. keep coming back because your intention. was. directly sending the message to them. that "Oh, I'm the guy you can call on. and I'm going to immediately say yes.". And when you are that guy, you always. get called on. So, you have to think. about I I now do not leave my house. without thinking about what is the. reason I'm going to do it. Am I actually. going to be able to be of service? Is it. going to mean something to me or am I.

just doing it to please the other. person? >> Well said. And and I started to through. the book, I started to be able to look. back on these patterns and realize that. a lot of times I had resentment when I. did these things, when I got these. things. >> you you do. You do. You have resentment. Which. defies the whole reason for doing it. Because then that resentment that you're. feeling is going to come back to you in. another form. You resent it because you. did it for the wrong reason. That is the. most important reason to look at what is.

the pure intention so that you do it out. of. respect for the other person. You. genuinely do want to help the other. person and you're going to sacrifice. your own time to do it. And because you actually want to do it. But if you do it for any other reason, you will end up resenting it. How How. many times have you been in an event. where you just go, "I don't even know I. don't even know what I'm doing here. I don't even know. >> to. >> Too. >> Too many to count. >> Too many [laughter] to What in the world.

am I doing here? Right? >> Understood. Understood. And so the book. just really helped me see that the. separation between my personality and my. soul. And you know, I wanted to ask you. So, I'll I'll go. through the audio book and I'll come out. sharp and for 2 weeks, you know, I'll. I'll I'll have intent with everything. that I do, but it slowly starts to drift. away. And so, I will go back to the book and.

it'll drift away. And so, my question to. you, you were 25 years ago and you're. still holding, you know, true to your. direction. How do you maintain, you know, once you get into the groove of not. people-pleasing and stay close to your. attention? Because my personality is. strong. I haven't been able to to to get. my personality to align with my soul. So, how do you maintain that? >> Well, well, here's the thing. The You have to be able to answer the. question. And you're not going to be able to do it.

here now, but here's the question I want. you to think about, Todd. Why are you. really here? >> Mhm. >> Why are you really here? What is the reason for the life. of this human incarnated in the flesh as. chef, description of what you do, Todd. Anderson? What is the reason for that? And. be about the business of serving that. reason and that reason only. That is why.

you're here. I don't know what that. answer is, but let every step you take. move you in the direction of what that. answer is. So, there is with thread that. that connects the dots of all of our. lives. For me, that thread is. inspiration. Since I was a little girl. speaking in the church, Kosciusko, Mississippi, people were saying to my. grandmother, "Hattie Mae, that girl is a. talking child. That child sure can. talk." So, I have used my voice as a. form of inspiration and inspiring people.

since I can remember knowing how to. speak. For you, maybe it would be food, since you are a chef. Using food as a. form of an offering and a gift to. people. A letting people see and feel. your spirit, your love, your kindness, your grace through through through your. through your food. Whatever that is that. you've come to serve and be of service. to, let every step only move you in the. direction of that. And all the other stuff is other.

people's stuff. Be very clear about why. you are here and what it is your mission. to do, and don't get yourself. uh don't allow yourself to be taken off. the course in other people's business, in other people's thoughts, in other. people's stuff. That's what I would say. >> Understood. >> That's how That's That's how I stay on. course for myself. >> Understood. And I And I thank you for. that. And I think uh. something I struggle with is. I understand this, but my personality.

sometimes. may put guilt on me, and I know that. that is, you know, of the outer realm. that I can't control, but. making me feel selfish for putting. myself first, or putting my my business, or my family first, and you know, sometimes I struggle with, you know, feeling, >> you know, that That is That is just. because you've been taught to believe. that you're supposed to put yourself. behind everyone else. The real truth is. you're supposed to put yourself first so.

that your cup runneth over, and you then. have enough to give to everybody else. You're not supposed to be giving from. your point of dearth. You're supposed to. be giving from your point of abundance. And that is. you will get that with the more you. practice it. You know, it took me a. while because. you know, I come from challenged you. know, poverty circumstances. And so I. grew up with that whole poverty. mentality. And so it took me a while. [clears throat] to doing doing the real. spiritual work on myself to get to the.

point to know that I deserve to live in. a space of a of abundance. And the more. abundant I am, the more I am willing to. share that abundance with other people. >> Mhm. >> Uh let the lessons continue for you. There are so many. And you know, I could. read I've been reading that book for. over 20 years. And I could read it again. today and find something completely. inspiring. for myself. And I know that is true as you continue. the journey.

Congratulations. I'm so I it's so excite. It's so exciting the way the world opens. up. That those that's one of my favorite. lessons, too. Uh your personality comes to serve the. energy of your soul was one of my. favorite. Your intention is at one with. cause and effect is is is my other. That's that's the one that guides my. life. So thank you. >> Understood. Thank you. >> Understood. Have a great day. Have a. great life. >> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thank you. Thank you, Chef Todd. So one of the fundamentals of Gary's. work is the concept of what he calls.

authentic power. And he says, "When the. personality comes to fully serve the. energy of its soul, that is authentic. empowerment. The secret is alignment. When you know that you're on course and. doing exactly what you're supposed to be. doing, fulfilling your soul's intention, fulfilling your heart's desire, or. whatever you choose to call it, you are. your most powerful.". As Gary sees it, there are only two. kinds of power, authentic internal power.

and external power. We often get the two. confused. >> If you reach outward to make yourself. feel worthy. or valuable or lovable or safe in the. world by attempting to manipulate and. control it, that is reaching for. external power, for power over what. appears to be external. It's the ability. to manipulate and to control those. things that appear to be outside of you. For example, having a beautiful set of. clothes or a new car or a new set of.

skis or having your dreadlocks arranged. in just the right way. You can be wearing sandals and a t-shirt. and still be reaching for external power. because that image is what you will use. to try to manipulate and to control. people to make you feel worthy. But there is another kind of power. And that kind of power can be developed. as you look inward. to find the holes, the emptiness, and. fill it inside instead of reaching. outside. >> And that kind of power you call.

authentic power. >> Real power, authentic power. >> And the difference between authentic. power and external power is. >> There are many differences. External. power comes and goes. Your stock. portfolio goes up in value and down. You. can win an election or lose it. You can. get a new car and be proud of it and. then someone can hit it and it's a. disaster. But authentic power. you never lose. >> And that's what we're all seeking. >> That is correct.

Well, let me put it this way. Until you. develop authentic power. you continue to create painful. experiences in your life. >> Okay, then tell me. in earthly terms, what authentic power. means. >> Authentic. >> What would that feel like to be. authentically empowered? >> You are living a life of authentic. power. Authentic power means to. be excited about what you are doing, to. be fulfilled and fulfilling. You forget.

to be angry, you forget to be. frightened. You know that you were on. this earth to do something, to give. gifts, and that you are doing that. something and giving those gifts. You. are fully engaged in the present moment. >> It's unbelievable. We're talking about. this in the '90s on broadcast. television. One of the most profound. moments I ever experienced on The Oprah. Show was when Gary and I spoke with a. young mother and father who were. suffering in their grief after the death. of one of their infant twins. Let's.

listen to that conversation. >> Now we want you to meet Jody who says. she used to be confident and empowered, felt empowered. She was the one her. friends turned to for advice, but just a. few months ago Jody endured one of the. most difficult things a mother can. experience, and now she fears that she. has lost her power and will never regain. control over her life. Take a look. >> I'm 31 years old. I've been [music]. married for 4 years to my husband Ira.

I'm a working mom. I felt like I was. [music] in control of my life. I felt. like I had authentic power in my life. that I created [music]. and determined my destiny. We wanted to. have another baby. Ira was dying for a. little boy. We found out that we were. pregnant and we found out we were having. twins and we felt like we hit the. lifetime lottery. >> That's Spencer and that one's Ryan. >> We [music] started to tell Haley. that she was very lucky there were two.

babies in mommy's tummy. >> 14 weeks before my due date, >> [music]. >> I went into preterm labor and was. admitted to the hospital. and 6 hours later had an emergency. C-section. Thankfully [music] with Ira. by my side, they delivered two beautiful. little boys. Ryan weighed [music] 1 lb. 12 oz and Spencer weighed 2 lb 2 oz. They had, you know, 10 fingers [music]. and 10 toes and and just looked perfect,

but they were all so very tiny. >> [music]. >> On the third day after they were born, Ryan had uh what they call brain bleed. [music]. Another day later, they called me down from my hospital. room. He was in cardiac arrest. I was. sitting there [music] watching and. hoping that everything was going to be. okay. Um. but it wasn't. [music] Then the doctor. came to me and said, "We'd like to stop.

pumping.". And then I told them [music] it was. okay. And. we said goodbye. They let us hold him uh. for. as long as we wanted. And. we said goodbye. And we cried. >> [music]. >> We buried him the next day. It was very difficult, but this was a. very bittersweet situation. [music]. We lost Ryan and yet Spencer was still. there. All of a sudden, I went into. [music] a tailspin.

I didn't have control over anything. I. felt like. I didn't know. who I was anymore. Some of the hardest times, I think, for. me. are when Haley asked about Ryan. And I'll have to re-explain, [music]. "Ryan went to heaven. Ryan went to God.". It's hard to feel completely happy. anymore. And [music]. it just seems to me like sadness and. grief are so much more powerful than.

joy and happiness. I feel like I know what it's like. [music] to feel that. power and that. control over my life. But how do I get [music] there again? How do I not let this. loss and tragedy in my life. take [music] take it over. >> So, I'm going to let you try to answer.

that. >> This is a matter of perspective. The perspective of the personality. or the perspective of the soul. From the perspective of the soul, interactions between personalities are. meaningful. And every soul comes into the earth. school. when it chooses. And every. personality or soul leaves the earth. school when it chooses.

If you look at. Ryan. as a personality who lived for a few. days and then encountered tragic. circumstances, and died, then you are looking from the. point of view of a personality. If you look at Ryan as a soul, like yourself, like Ira, like Oprah, like me, like everyone on.

this earth, that left this earth when it chose, then you will have a different. perspective. You will be able to see the gifts that. this soul. offered to you. during its short stay on the earth. You will s-. reach a place in your life where you are. grateful.

that this soul chose. to be with you for however short a time. If you do not, you will live your life. in anguish thinking that a tragedy has. occurred. Whenever you see your other son growing. up, you will say, "Ryan should be here.". When he graduates from high school, you. say, "Ryan should have graduated.". When he finds his wife, he will say, "Ryan should be getting married, too.". And through all of this time, you will.

be imposing on your other son a burden. to carry because no matter what he does. or how successful he is, he will be. causing Mommy pain. If you look at Ryan as a soul, a great. soul like yourself, who voluntarily entered the Earth school. and voluntarily left it. in order to be with you,

and to offer gifts, then you will begin the process of. phantom-ing and appreciating, and. becoming grateful for the power of the. interaction. that you had with that soul. And you will be able to receive the. gifts that that soul came to this Earth. to give you, to give Ira, to give to his. siblings. And if you do not, you will continually. be turning away from those gifts.

You will be denying the very wealth. of wisdom and compassion that was. offered to you by this soul. >> Well, that may be the most powerful. thing I ever heard you say. That's pretty powerful. >> [applause]. >> That is pretty powerful. That is pretty powerful, and I. >> Do you feel that his soul lives on? And.

that somehow or some way that we can. No, contact that soul or feel that soul. uh. >> You are feeling it right now. We every. one of us feels the soul of Ryan right. now at this moment. Every one of us feels the soul of Ryan. And that's really what Gary's talking. about in multisensory perception. If. you're only if you only in in the book. about multisensory perception, if you. think it's only what you can see, then you're missing the whole point. Cuz.

every one of us saw that story, heard. that, and now feel the presence of your. son who was only here for a short few. days. In his own little life, weighing 1 and. 1/2 lb, has impacted. through the telling of that story, millions of people. We all feel it. What. do you think We're all feeling that. right now. Are we not, Gary? >> We are. I am. >> Yeah. >> nice to know. >> Yes, the answer to your question is yes.

Yes. However, I would also say that to look. at this soul as Ryan would be to. diminish the power and scope of the. presence that came into your life. and chose a personality, in this case, of an infant named Ryan. In other words, the soul is a great deal more than this. personality, just as you are a great. deal more than the personality that you. are, Oprah.

And if you begin to look at your. interaction with Ryan as an interaction. with a soul, then you will not so much. have a tendency to be involved in the. sentimentalism of thinking of Ryan the. soul, but begin to experience the power of. this soul. who came to be with you and took the. form of Ryan for a few days. >> Wow. Well, we recently connected with Jody, the mom there, and she wrote us an. update. She said that I could share with.

you all here. She says, "We are all. doing great. Spencer. is 24, almost 25. Hayley is 27, and we have another son, Cooper, who is 19. That day was an important turning point. for me in my recovery. of power. It really helped me put things in. perspective and get my life back on. track and learning to deal with the loss. and sorrow.

I am not sure that the show really. caught the power of that moment in the. way that we all felt it, like Ryan's soul was in the room with. us. It was an oddly comforting feeling. A few things I remember most, which I. don't even think aired, maybe it was. during a commercial break, Gary said. something to the effect of, "Maybe. Ryan's soul was meant to guide Spencer. into this world and then move on from. this world.". I've thought about that many times. I.

also took to heart his advice to not. burden Spencer with the loss of his twin. by always thinking or saying, "Well, Ryan should be doing this or that.". During the times when we are celebrating. Spencer, I have lived by that in our relationship. with Spencer, and I think that was. important. Spencer has been able to live. his life as himself. and not being burdened by our loss. However, I will say that I do feel he.

has his own loss that he has yet to. really understand or deal with. Ira. remembers Gary saying, "Your emotions. are your friends," and has used that. throughout his life. So, I want to thank you, Jodi, for. sharing your update and for being so. brave about. telling your family story all those. years ago. That was really brave to do. that on national broadcast television. We have Alicia joining us via Zoom from. North Carolina who saw that show.

Hi Alicia. >> Hi Oprah. >> I hear baby Ryan's story had a profound. impact on you. I could feel it having an impact on. people around the country and the world. because you know. for me it was always the audience was. the rest of the country and everybody in. that audience was so moved by that story. and we could feel the presence of that. little baby soul or spirit in the in in.

the room and the fact that we were. talking about him I as I said he only. lived a few days. and we are sharing that story with. people around the world and you're one. of the people who's who heard it. >> Yes, yes um. thank you so much for having me and. being able to share. something that is so near and dear to my. heart. Um. a little bit of my story was back in.

December of um. 2010 December 20th I went to the. hospital. um so excited to have my second baby. girl I'm an only child and I just wanted. my daughter to have a sister I was so. very excited and I was past my due date. and I went into. the hospital and I went through all the. whole process of labor up until the last. minute and things went.

bad and they went bad really quickly. And um. we lost our second child. that early in the morning on that. December 20th and um it I was left just. trying to make sense of it like how. could this happen How could I carry her. past my due date and go through all the. labor and.

lose her. like that. And um I was so very stuck. and I remembered baby Ryan. I remembered that show. >> Mhm. >> So I have gone back to that show so many. times to rewatch that clip that you just. played. >> Mhm. >> to help to help me understand like. what was it? Why did she come? I know that she we. were able to donate her organs so she. helped three babies with her heart.

valves. >> Wow. >> So just hearing Gary Zukav's words. and feeling the audience that day. was so comforting. There was just something about it and I. have gone there so many times to rewatch. that show cuz it's been so helpful for. me to realize that she was a soul coming. through me. to help and her purpose was.

to help these three babies that needed. heart valves and. I don't know what other you know, what. other purpose she had and then there's. much more there I am sure but um yes, it. was. that show. was just very moving and it was just so. helpful for me. >> Wow. So this was a very definition of a full. circle moment. What do you want to say. to anybody who.

maybe stuck in their grief right now? >> I would say. it's nothing that you can just get get. through quickly. Um I would say. I I like to I like the the term I like. to use is it's three T's. It's tears, time, and talking. Right? Like, we need to talk about it. and not hold things in. Um and time is just naturally helping us. along the way.

And tears, we have this gift of these. tears that come out of our eyes when. things are just too much for us to. handle. So, that that's my best advice is to not try. to go around it and actually feel it. because I think that um when you go. around it, you actually prolong the. healing. And just feeling it and crying when you. need to cry and talk about it when you.

need to talk about it. Um I find was the most helpful. >> Time, tears, and talking. I thank you so much. I thank you so much. for. holding that space for Ryan in your. heart and then all those many years. later, it comes back and is a is a balm, is a is a soother, is a is a comfort to. you. Thank you so much, Alicia. >> A special thank you, Oprah. >> Thank you. Thank you.

Um I'll never forget another young woman. who shared her story on The Oprah. Winfrey Show with Gary and myself. Her. name is Laura. Let's listen to Laura. This is Laura. Her soul story is a. reminder that the universe is always. providing us with opportunities to. discover a more fulfilling life. >> About 8 years [music] ago, I was. strolling through life, just simply. going through the motions, and something. happened to me that was going to change. my life forever. >> [music]. >> I was a cheerleader, I was a dancer, I. was in orchestra. I used to be the kind.

of person that was always smiling on the. outside, [music] but in actuality, I was. dying slowly inside. Since about the age. of 14 is when I started [music] feeling. suicidal. I started questioning what my. purpose in life was, why I was here, would it really matter if I wasn't here. [music] I felt very empty, I felt very. lonely. Deep down inside, I think I felt. that. my parents didn't love me, and. >> [music]. >> I know now that they did, but they never. told me that. At the moment that I felt. the most suicidal, I had a trip coming.

up with several girlfriends. Depending. on the outcome of this trip was going to. [music] decide what my life was going to. be. It was going to decide if I was. going to continue living. or if I was going to take my life. We. got on the freeway and noticed. >> [music]. >> sirens behind us. So, we pulled into the next lane, and we. came to a complete stop. We looked up on. the overpass, and there was a man who. was about to jump on the freeway. And. there was only three cars that got. stopped in between the exit and the.

overpass, and I think. we were one of the cars for a reason. And my friend looked at me, and she. said, "Don't you think this is a sign?". I felt myself looking up at this man and. wondering if he was going to jump or. not, and wanting him to live. And at. that point, I wondered if someone felt. that way about me. They did eventually. talk him down, and as we went underneath. the overpass, I felt. a very strange energy go from my head to. my toe, and it felt like.

millions of tiny goosebumps, and [music]. I felt power in me, and it gave me the. courage to continue to live. And I knew. I was never going to feel bad about. myself again. I knew someone was looking. over me. I think that incident happened. just for me. I don't think it was. anything of a coincidence. I think. [music] I'm very intuitive now. I kind. of take the things that happen around me. and look at them as new signs, and take them as a direction of where I. need to go in my life now.

>> What a story that is. What a story that. is. You know, I was just saying to Gary, I don't believe in coincidences. I. believe whenever anything happens and. you were in it it happens in your. presence, it's happening for a lesson. for you. And what's interesting about. that for everybody else on that freeway. who saw it, it happens to them for. whatever reason, you know, their story. Um. >> Yeah, I think everything happens for a. reason. I don't think there's there's. anything that's bad in the world that. happens to you. Cuz I think it's. supposed to happen to you to teach you.

something along the way. >> If you're open to see it. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The fact that you would be stuck right. there looking at that man on the bridge. getting ready to jump when you'd been. thinking about doing it yourself. >> And it all came in the timing of that. exact weekend, too. This was the night. before we were going to leave for that. weekend. And I think I'd been trying to. find a way and I've been searching for. something or searching for a purpose and. I wasn't really sure why I was here. And. I think at that moment is when I kind of. surrendered myself to the universe and.

realize if you only surrender yourself, you'll realize that your life just goes. into place and you find a certain. harmony and a certain joy in your life. And if you can live your life with that, then you're blessed because a lot of. people can't live their life with that. If you can surround yourself with a. positivity bubble, kind of get all the. negative thoughts out of there, nothing. bad in your life happens. It's how you. choose to react to all of them. >> What do you want to say to all the. people who felt as she did? I don't know. because I hear this all the time and you.

do, too, on your website. People saying, "I don't know what my purpose is. I. think my life doesn't have any meaning.". And they're obviously, with all the. people who are watching us around the. country, somebody watching right now. saying, "I identify with exactly what. you said. I don't know what my purpose. is. I don't know what my What is my. meaning? Is my life important to. anybody? Does anybody care if I decide. today I no longer want to be here?" And. what do you want to say to that, Gary? >> There are times when I wanted to take my.

life. Because my earlier life was so painful. and so agonizing. in so many ways, and I felt so isolated. But if I had, I would not be able to be here and say. to you, you are worthy and your life has. a meaning. And it is the universe that you are a. part of that is a universe of. consciousness and life and love. You do not need to depend upon one other.

or two other or six other people to love. you. You are valuable as you are. And what you do with that life, which is. precious. beyond what we can conceive, is for you. to choose in this moment. But no matter. what you do, you are worthy, you are precious, you. are a creator. >> You're worthy because you were born. >> You are Yes, you're worthy because you. are born because you are.

>> Laura is zooming in from South Carolina. Laura, hi. Hard to believe that was 25. years ago. What happened to you after. that show? >> Oh my gosh, 25 years. Well, thank you. for inviting me to share today. I feel. so honored to be present in this moment. Um 25 years ago, I was. a turning 25 and also starting a new job. as a 911 operator.

>> Wow. >> absolutely terrified. to share such a personal story with. anyone other than my own self. And I. think you touched on it earlier, these. weren't topics that were typically. spoken about 25 years ago. So, as a. young woman whose friends and family had. no idea this ever happened, was kind of. like a piece of an onion peeling away to.

show what my true personality was. So, I. do want to thank you for allowing me to. participate in that because since that. show aired, it taught me a lot. It taught me that. I'm braver than I ever thought I could. be and it gave me confidence to be my. authentic self. So, I am not really shy anymore. I say I'm a. little introverted, but I am who I am. Take me or leave me.

And I know who I am deep down and I love. that about myself and it was so. encouraging to see really heartfelt. comments after the show aired from. people who watched the show. and also from people who knew me and. didn't know that side of me. So, bearing that to the world was. terrifying, but so worth it. And I feel.

like that was a good chapter for me and. um. I'm living a beautiful life now. Absolutely. I. couldn't be happier. I never would have. imagined this. >> I'm so so thrilled to hear this because, you know, I never we many of the the. producers and I you don't know what. happens after the show. I did every show with the hope that. it was a win-win for whoever was a. participant. Obviously, you coming on. and being a guest for us was a win for.

us, but I always wanted the guests to. leave with something that would also be. meaningful in their lives and I think I. didn't know how old you were, but I. think. uh. you know, in this world that we live in. where everybody posts all their feelings. and what their sandwich was this morning. and shares everything, I think it's hard. for people to understand what a. courageous thing that would have been. to out yourself that you were having. mental health issues. Now,

in the most recent years, we've been. able to talk about the word trauma and. about mental health and not feeling. great about yourself and how it's okay. not to be okay, but I'm telling you in. '98 and the 2000s, that was that was. that was not the case. >> Yeah, I know. It was very taboo. Um you. you just didn't expose yourself like. that. This is before social media. Um. there was no Facebook, like you said, discussing your feelings. And it so I I.

guess my way of. understanding who I was and and feeling. fulfilled was the career that I had for. 16 years as a 911 operator dispatcher, and eventually supervisor. I had loved. that job. And that is when I felt very. much myself. I felt that was what my. purpose was, um which I had been. searching for for so long. Is my purpose. was service. And if I could be a safe.

place for people who otherwise were in. their worst moment, and sometimes the. most traumatizing event they'll have in. their entire life, if I could be that. for somebody, that's what. fulfilled me. Um so, funny enough, when. I took a deferred retirement and. my now second husband and I moved to the. greatest place on Earth, but not Disneyland, but Maui, Hawaii.

>> Yes, I would agree. >> [laughter]. >> I would agree. >> When we moved there, I felt a void, and. I couldn't put my finger on it for a. while. It was something was missing, and. it was that service to others that I. feel so inherently is me. And so then I joined the American Red. Cross in the Hawaii division. And I ended up becoming, funny enough, a. real estate agent. Very much removed. from what I had been doing previously.

But. I was very good. I still do it. And I've had a mentor who. even said to me, and he probably doesn't realize this is. one of the best things anyone ever said. to me. He said, you know, you have a gift. You have a gift. And I thought, wow, no one's ever. put anything into words like that for me. before. And this is just real estate. But for me it was service. >> Yeah. >> It had nothing to do with how it.

affected me. It was my service to let me. be the best person I can be for the. person on the other end because they. deserve somebody like me. >> Well, you know what I think is so. wonderful, what I think is so wonderful, Laura, is that you are. living proof. that. it was a great decision. not to take your life. Because look, 25. years later, you say you're happier than. you've ever been, you're living your.

best life, you're fulfilled. And in that. moment of despair, which so many young. people are struggling with mental health. today, you feel like you you can't go on. and life doesn't get better. But you are. living proof that it does. So, what. would you like to say. some person who's struggling in this. moment? Somebody's listening to us right. now, in this moment, who is in that. space. >> Yes, I would say I guess I learned. that.

we have the power. in our self. to make decisions. And it's up to us how. we react to those decisions as well. And. much like Gary says, we have responsible. choices. So, when you learn that you have the power. within you to choose. are you going to be happy? Choose how. you want to live your life. It's up to. only us to make that decision to keep.

going. And life is built in chapters. So, this chapter you got to get through. it to get to the next one. It It may not. be what you're looking for, but in order. to find out the rest of the story, you. got to get through the chapter you're in. now. You got to get through the chapter. >> Yes. You got to stop resisting. That's. what I learned. Stop resisting. what the universe is trying to provide. for you. If you just allow yourself,

like I said before, if you surrender to. the universe and you just allow yourself. to feel the moment and be intuitive and. listen to yourself, you're going to get. through that chapter. And what's on the. next chapter could be amazing. And it is. for me. I I have no better life. I. actually married the love of my life who. knows me better than I know myself. I. didn't think that was possible. So, >> Wow. >> It's amazing. >> Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful result.

Thank you so much, Laura. Thank you so. much. Great to hear from you. While we. were producing this episode, um before I. even had the chance to tell Gary that I. was recording this podcast about some of. his greatest teachings for me, he sent me an email because that's how. the universe works. I was thinking about. him, he was thinking about me. Uh and I want to read part of what he. wrote me because I think it's a really. important message to hear during. this us versus them mentality that is. hurting all of us. He said, "Our.

evolution requires us to love. How could it be otherwise? We cannot. change a world that is built on. manipulation and control. with more of the same. When we lash out. against darkness, we ourselves enter the. darkness. When we have no compassion for. those who have no compassion, what is. the difference between us and them? We need to choose love over fear. Thank you, Gary, for your timeless. wisdom. Gary Zukav's books, The Seat of.

the Soul and his most recent Universal. Human, are available anywhere you buy. your books. As I expressed throughout. this podcast and throughout many years. of growing in my own spirituality, his works have been so helpful to me in. opening up the aperture of what is. possible and what is possible by. following your soul's. purpose here on Earth. and allowing your personality to become.

aligned with what your soul actually. came here to do. That's the goal. Thank you to my guests, Julianne Hough, to Todd, to Alicia and Laura. We'll talk. again next week here on the Oprah. podcast. Go well, everyone. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.