Oprah and Experts: Setting Boundaries with Toxic Family Members

So, now Oprah's shocked by the aftermath. of estrangement after being one of the. biggest [music] voices pushing it for. decades. Oprah, the biggest plot twist. in the entire [music] family. estrangement crisis. While everyone is. applauding her for finally discussing. estrangement, very few look at the irony. and the contradiction. Oprah was one of. the strongest voices pushing the. normalization of family cut-offs, and. not [music] by accident, publicly, repeatedly, and openly. I don't feel. that I contributed to the culture of. estrangement in the way that you're. saying.

Hi everybody. I'm happy to be here with. you on the Oprah podcast in gorgeous New. York City. So, right before. Thanksgiving, we did an episode about. the growing number of Americans choosing. to go no contact with their parent or. their adult child. And it reached over 5. million of you. Thank you so much. And. millions more reacted on social media. I. did not fully appreciate this issue. would hit such a raw nerve. And then in. the middle of Thanksgiving with my own.

family, my phone is blowing up with. comments and articles and debates. online. And I wanted to show you just a. few of the most reposted moments from. that no contact episode. So, you didn't grow up in a world where. you thought about, you know, removing. yourself or distancing yourself from. your parents. Where did the idea even. come from? I don't think there was one. moment. I think it was very incremental. Do you miss the contact with them? I. love my life. I'm just not being walked.

all over, actually. So, it's it's I know. peace for the first time. There's always. been estrangements, right? For forever. there's been estrangements. But it's new. the way we think about family. >> I do understand she is my mother. However, it's like we just we don't have. that relationship, you know? And so it's. just like she was never there for me. It's such a thin line between like. what's appropriate and what's gone too. far. Because as therapists, we do see. our clients suffering. I am estranged. from my 30-year-old son by choice. When.

a mother decides to go no contact with. her child, she's demonized. >> Mhm. And that's been my experience. In our. generation, the way we grew up, you. know, you loved your parents no matter. what. >> Yeah. They're not doing that no more. I. just wanted to mention that this is not. the world of 30 years ago. >> it's a very interesting thing you just. said, the days of the role. being the almighty in the relationship, because it's not about the role, it.

really is about the relationship. Some of you said you felt seen and. understood for the first time. Others. felt that the language and the framing. of our conversation missed the mark. So, I'm here today to try to unpack this and. dive a bit deeper if we can. On this. episode, our three experts will be back. as well as more people who have chosen. to cut ties with their parents, and even. ties between siblings, which hits a very. different nerve. But first, one social.

post really caught my attention, so much. so that I responded to it. Watch this. So now Oprah's shocked by the aftermath. of estrangement after being one of the. biggest voices pushing it for decades. Oprah, the biggest plot twist in the. entire family estrangement crisis. While. everyone is applauding her for finally. discussing estrangement, very few look. at the irony and the contradiction. Oprah was one of the strongest voices. pushing the normalization of family. cutoffs, and not by accident, publicly, repeatedly, and openly. And this started. as far back as the '90s, and it.

continued for decades right into 2025. And look at the trail. She wasn't. neutral. She wasn't asking questions. She amplified the very messaging that. contributed to millions of parents and. children walking away from one another. Estrangement isn't entertainment or a. trending conversation piece. It's real. families, real grief, parents dying. without hearing their child's voice. Generations are now breaking. Let's. about what repair talks and what that. means and what repair actually takes. because that's part that no one teaches. you and that's exactly why I'm here.

Mhm. Tonya, thanks for being here to. talk with me. Hi there. Hi Oprah. Hi. You believe that I and so many others. have helped to promote this concept of. going no contact over the years. You're. right. Yeah. Now, whether it was. intentional or not, Oprah, um. speaking directly cuz this conversation. didn't just recently start, I was one of. those people that cut off my mom in the. name of healing because I put you on a. pedestal for so long and I was watching. your episodes and I've watched you talk. with Nedra, which is is awesome to have.

her here today, where the language is. about protecting your peace and having. the boundaries and empowerment, which. was freeing in the moment, but there was. no path to repair after that. And so. when I saw this topic come up now, I was. kind of like, "Huh, this this isn't. new.". Mhm. Well, I thank you for bringing that. to my attention because what I thought. was new certainly is new culturally in. the African-American community, which. we'll be talking about, I think, later. on with Nedra and other people, is that.

the idea of cutting off your parents is. just been an unthinkable thing. And I. can see why you might think that I was. strongly endorsing people having no. contact. What I felt I was doing was. allowing people the opportunity. to remove themselves from abusive. relationships. So, what I remember is. all of these various shows that we did.

where people are being abused by their. parent and I believe when you have to. re-enter a situation where you have. suffered abuse or you have been, you. know, severely mistreated in that way, that divorcing that situation for many. people is is is the best recourse. So, that's what I have in my memory, but I. don't feel that I contributed to the. culture of estrangement in the way that. that you're saying. But, I can hear why. you feel I can hear why you feel that. way. I want to say I appreciate you.

bringing presents to the abuse part cuz. my content is never about the abuse. That's when distance is necessary. I. think what happened is because that. language was learned and pushed so much, it started to become. >> in particular, Tonya? Like the part in. the distance when you should go no. contact, your parents are toxic. Even. Even the terms of your parents are. abusive. Now, it might not be coming. directly from you. That language became. so normalized, Oprah, that it's now. being used for everyday hardships, not. necessarily abuse. I would agree with. that, and that's one of the things that.

I learned in this most recent show that. we did, that what I, in all the years of. doing the Oprah show, saw as abuse, people feel now when somebody hurts. their feelings or somebody doesn't agree. with them, that that is now abuse. I see. abuse as it has been defined for years. in the culture, someone is sexually. abusing you, emotionally abusing you, saying things on a constant basis that. make you feel small and make you feel.

less than valued in the relationships. That's what I see as abuse. So, someone. having a disagreement with you and. you're not, you know, feeling like they. are necessarily in your corner, to me. that isn't abuse. And I think from my. point of view, what I have done is tried to get to. people to look at the truth of their. lives. If this person is toxic to you, which I know is a word that's used. overused now, then you need to create. some distance. You know, in my own.

family relationships, as you referred. to, I had some toxicity, and it didn't. mean I. completely estranged from my family. because of it, but I had to set up some. boundaries because of it. So, I think. there's a difference between setting up. boundaries and having absolutely no. contact. >> Yeah, I wanted to add on that because. boundaries are such an important tool. And that's that's where I appreciated. Nedra because I think boundaries are so. important when someone has never had. boundaries before and knew how to say. no. Um but what happened is boundaries is.

staying in relationships that aren't. safe are essential. And it stops the. bleeding by setting these boundaries and. it creates that space to breathe. Where. the conversation often. >> saying staying in relationships that are. unsafe? I I think the distance is. necessary in those instances that you. don't stay in the relationship when your. safety is an issue. But what happens is. the conversation is stopping with. boundaries when boundaries are treated. as the end goal of healing healing. rather than the beginning steps. And. that's essentially why I talk about that. because managing pain through distance.

is not the same thing as resolving the. emotional wounds underneath it. And so, healing is what creates freedom. Boundaries is what creates that first. line of protection. Two very different. things. Tell me tell me Tonya, what do. you think cuz I'm always interested in. evolving, growing, making things better. What do you think was missing from our. episode? I think it was lacking the. depth because obviously this. conversation runs deep. And so, when I. say depth, I mean it's it's one thing to. understand your pain. But for me, when I.

really uncovered emotional healing, there's three stages to it. And I feel. like this kind of covered stage one, which is stage one is really unpacking. the wounds, bringing it to the surface, attaching your pain and your. insecurities and all of that to what. happened to you in your childhood and. your upbringing. But that's just stage. one. Stage two is really about now how. do I reframe that? And for me, that's. saying okay, the villain in my story. from stage one, I need to now rewrite. their story so that I'm no longer just. holding on to the resentment and the.

pain that I have, but I need to be able. to understand. their perspective. Not to justify the. pain that happened to you, not to excuse. it in any way, shape or form, but to. allow you a level of compassion to say. this wasn't about me. This was about. them and their character and what. they've gone through and how they've. grown up that deflected that onto me, and it's not me. So, that's stage two. There was no conversation around that, let alone stage three about how to. repair. About how to repair, how to. understand that they didn't mean to.

necessarily hurt me. By the way, there's. of course some terrible people in the. world that don't have that intention, but there was no repair. Actually, I. think that that's a whole completely. different conversation and show. I think. for myself and I think for the producers. who brought the idea to me in the first. place, actually, the idea came because I. have a friend who was going through it, who called me up one day and said, "Do. you know about this no contact thing?". Then I mentioned it to a producer and. then we started this whole thing and. they said, "Oh, yeah, a lot of people. are going through this." So, I think our.

initial intention, because we always. talk about what is our intention before. we do anything, was to make people aware. that this was happening in the world. Now, I know you live in a world where. you're very social and you know this, but there are a lot of people who didn't. know as. this was even happening. Including my best friend Gail, who's. like, "I didn't even know people could. do this." You know? So, the initial show. was just to let people know this is. happening in the world and I think I. think you're you're right that we didn't.

delve into how to repair because we were. just trying to let people know this was. actually happening. So, what's the third. thing you think is missing? The third. thing is now rewriting your own story. So, once you've found the compassion and. the understanding, now you write your. own story and say, "Okay, I'm not going. to be stuck in stage one. I need to be. able to work through that level of. compassion and say, since I'm aware now. that the triggers and the people who. activated them and everything was not a. direct correlation with my worth and who. I am and everything, it's time for me to. rewrite my own." And I love that you say.

this because this comes from your own. experience, right? Because I read that. you went no contact once yourself. I did. That's the That's the thing is I, you know, often times you say it's to. protect my peace, but for me I learned. that it was actually protecting my pain. Because as long as I wasn't around the. thing that was triggering me, then I. felt peaceful. But really for me real. peace came when I was no longer. triggered, which I don't like to use. that like that term so loosely because I. feel like it's another common word now. Once I learned how to be around my.

mother or the person that was triggering. me and still stay calm and grounded, that was a different level of peace. That is the real definition of peace. Okay, so Tanya, I really thank you for. sharing your point of view with us and. giving me and all of us on this team a. different perspective. We're going to. move on to my other guest, but I want to. make sure you had a chance to say what. you wanted to. Is there some final thing. you wanted to share with us? No, I think it's important to have that. open dialogue and I appreciate you. actually commenting and and being open. to it because sometimes we do have an.

effect that could create a ripple effect. when our intention was not to create. that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much and. you've given me. ideas for at least three or four other. conversations. All right. Thank you. All. right, hope to talk to you in the. future. Okay, so now I want to bring in. our three experts into the conversation. Dr. Joshua Coleman, you will remember, is a psychologist, best-selling author. known for his frequent contributions to. Ask a Therapist column in the Washington. Post, and Nedra, who you also just. mentioned, Nedra Glover Tawwab is a. therapist in New York Times best-selling.

author. Hey Nedra again. And Dr. Lindsay. Gibson, psychologist and also New York. Times best-selling author. Welcome back. to you all. Dr. Coleman, you've seen. Tanya's post and you share some of her. sentiments. How so? Well, I share many. of the sentiments that people are way. too quick to cut off loving, decent, involved parents and they're using the. language of therapy and abuse. And part. of that is just the way that the. threshold for what we consider to be.

abusive, harmful, neglectful, traumatizing behavior have lowered. So, the generations are really talking past. each other. And one of the problems that. we have right now in our culture is. that, you know, just about every day. there's some article about somebody. who's cut themselves off from a truly. abusive parent where any of us could. agree that it's a reasonable, understandable thing for that adult. child to have done. But, you know what's. missing from our culture? Are the. parents' stories. And parents aren't out.

there talking about their stories. You. know why? Because they're terrified that. if they do that, that's going to. that's going to decrease the chances of. further estrangement. So, you have this. great disparity between. who's kind of running the narrative. here. And so, people often say things. like, "Well, you know, nobody cuts them. cuts off a parent unless they have. really good reasons." And yeah, I agree. that they might not cut them off unless. they have good reasons. But, their. reason may not be parental abuse or. neglect or harm. It could be because.

they don't get along with the spouse. that their their child is is married to. It could be the parent's mental illness, but it could also be the adult child's. mental illness or addictive issues. So, there's all these different pathways to. estrangement that can happen with good, decent, loving parents. And that is not. enough in in the. the media in our conversation right now. Nedra, what do you want to say about the. reaction that you've been seeing online. about this episode? I see so many messages about the title.

And one of the things that, you know, I. mentioned is one, I do not label and. market Oprah Winfrey's episodes, right? I had nothing to do with the title. And. also, if we are being technical, a trend. is something that is popular. So, if you. look on Twitter or threads or Tik Tok, they have a list of 20 or 10 trending. topics. So, if this happens to be a.

popular topic of this time, then that is. what the the episode was labeled. I. don't think it was labeled in a in a. manner to say that we are doing. something to to make it more popular or. we're doing something to say that this. has never been a thing, but it really is. something that more and more people are. talking about. I think the word trend. made a lot of people feel. marginalized. Trend was in the labeling.

of this episode. I never called it a. trend, but I take responsibility for. what it's labeled cuz I approve. everything. And so, I didn't know that. that word would cause a stir or cause. people to be upset. Let me just say, I. apologize for many of you that word felt. insulting and it did not actually. reflect the immense pain and the grief. behind the decisions that you all have. made. So, I apologize on behalf of. myself and my team. I want to say, I.

thank you all for the correction. I. stand corrected and I think people think. long and hard for many days and nights. and often years before they make a. decision like this. Long and hard and. are tormented by it for a long time. So, any implication that it's anything else. was certainly not intended by me. And I. what I wanted to talk to you about is. that in the African-American community, this was unheard of. I.

have seen so many. people in relationships in the. African-American community where you at. least needed to set some boundaries. You. at least but the idea of divorcing or. dismissing or no longer having contact. with somebody who has done severely. harmful things to you, uh. was just unheard of. And now that is. happening. That is happening. Yeah, and. I and I would say in many instances, it. it would have been healthy to happen.

many years ago. We would have saved some. generations from from trauma. You know, to Tonya's point, the real abusive part. of it, some people are suffering real. abuse for years and years, particularly. in the black community, because we have. this I don't want to put it out there. that this person is doing that. I don't. want to bring shame to my culture. I. don't want to say anything and disrupt. the family programming. So, people are. dealing with with real abuse. I would.

have to say I if I, Oprah Winfrey, personally know three people who have. been in abusive relationships and have. now grown up and their mothers are still. with those men, and they feel like they have to continue. a relationship. in that family. I I it if if I. personally know three, I know that there. are at least three or four million out. there who are doing the same thing. And. that And that's. >> And the the pedophiles in the family. And the pedophiles in the family, yeah.

The pedophiles in the family or the. verbally abusive aunts and grandparents. and all sorts of things that it's just. been something we've tolerated. And now. that people have the education and. understanding that that is actually. abuse, they are taking a stand. So, Dr. Gibson, what's the response been. like for you? Yeah, for the most part, all the. responses that I've gotten have been. very positive. This is, you know, coming.

mostly from colleagues and friends, but. also people that have posted stuff as. well. So, it was very positive in the sense of. it being experienced as a well-balanced. show, something that showed the point of. view of of several different situations, you know, whether it was parent-child, child-parent. >> Yeah. Okay. There were so many posts I. responded to Tanya's because I just. popped into my feed and then I realized.

everybody else was saying all kinds of. things. I just couldn't keep up. But. Jemele Hill posted this, I watched. Oprah's episode about going no contact. with family and I have a personal. connection that I don't feel comfortable. sharing. And then someone posted. something pretty rude and Jemele clapped. back, thank you, and wrote, maybe you. should watch the episode before having. such a strong opinion. It was a very. good episode and the point of it wasn't. to say, look at this new thing. happening, but to also highlight and. have hard conversations about how the no. contact is happening for a variety of.

reasons that sometimes don't include. obvious abuse. Well, thank you, Jemele. Thank you so much. Emmy Award-winning journalist, author, and The Atlantic contributor, I love The. Atlantic so much and all all that you. say there. Great to see you. Thank you. for watching and supporting us. What. what struck you the most watching it and. caused you to have that response? Well, if you will allow me to name drop. your best friend Gayle, uh the episode. struck me so much because I have um a.

few personal connections to it. I have. two very dear friends of mine who have. gone no contact with their mother. So, I. thought about their situation and I was. so. uh struck and drawn to this episode that. I texted Gayle because I know her. socially and and through some other. channels and I said, listen, I know. you're not Oprah's messenger or her. administrative assistant, but if you. could pass along to her that this. episode was really one of the best that. I'd ever seen in terms of addressing. something that was so deep and painful.

uh for a lot of people, but I was struck. by people's courage, by their. vulnerability, and another part of it. that I hadn't considered cuz you had a. woman on who had decided to go no. contact with her son because that was a. part of this. movement. I don't want to use the word. trend either or part of this growing. awareness that isn't really covered. Like I don't I think on some level it. may not totally surprise people if. children decide to do that with their. parents because of all sorts of. different reasons, abuse, not liking a.

spouse or significant other, host of. things. But to hear parents saying that. they decided to go not no contact with. their kids was was especially stark. >> Yeah. Powerful because. I I thought her testimony was really. profound saying, "I've been abused for. years by my own son and have taken it. and have done everything." And what. happens in those relationships is the. other children in the family end up. suffering because all the attention goes. to trying to solve this problem with the.

child who is abusive and not getting. along with the rest of the family and. and and and and everybody ends up. suffering. So, I think the fact that. people, particularly parents, come to. that conclusion is an even more daring. and thought-out process than it is for. kids in many cases. Well, in 2022, I. recall um it was right after the. pandemic was subsiding, you released. your acclaimed memoir Uphill. And if. you're watching or listening and you.

haven't read Uphill, let me just tell. you it's a fearless and inspiring story. written in Jamel's voice. And in the. book, you shared some unforgettable. truths about your own family dynamics. I. know it was probably hard for you to. share a lot of that, also cathartic. What do you want people to know now? Well, um you know, as I alluded to it in. that social media post that you. referenced, I said I had a personal. situation that I was dealing with. And. I have never disclosed disclosed this.

publicly cuz it's sort of relatively. recent, but I've been no contact with my. own father for almost going on 3 years. And it is interesting to mention my book. because my book played a role in the. reason why I decided to go no contact, and I didn't even know that was the. language for calling it that. Mhm. >> Um but my father was upset about my. book, and if anyone has read my book, I. certainly did not tear down my father. We had a very sort of difficult um path. in the sense that we were estranged for. some time. We sort of uh came together,

you know, renewed a relationship. We. were estranged because my father um. early on in my childhood was addicted to. heroin. Uh both my parents uh were. addicts, and they have thankfully uh. recovered. And so uh because of that. early absence, it was a lot of stops and. starts in terms of how to grow our. relationship. And I did the best that I. I could certainly on my end. And I know. my father was trying to do his best. Uh. but when this memoir came out, uh he. took to Facebook and was upset about.

some of the things that I said about him. in my memoir. Actually, he wasn't upset. about what I said. What he told me, Oprah, was that he was upset that he. wasn't in it enough. And my immediate. thought was, you would have had to be in. the my life more to be in the memoir. more. Okay? [laughter]. And so um and he disparaged my mother, and he has always sort of blamed her for. the fact that our relationship has been. again, stops and starts and kind of. awkward. We certainly had good moments. and good times. And I think it was. Nechama who said this is that when. you're trying to reframe the.

relationship with your parent when there. has been hurt there is that maybe. they're not supposed to be the parent. Maybe they're supposed to be a really. good friend. So I was trying to put him. in sort of the dynamic of like, my dad. can't be the dad in the way that dads. are typically dads just because of the. estrangement and the time lost and those. kind of things. But he can be my friend, and I thought we were on the pathway to. that until he decided to publicly say. these things when he has my number and. he could have called me if he had. anything that he took issue with with. the book. And so, between that and some.

other instances, and Oprah, I know you. can probably relate to this, of asking. me for money, and I I mean, it was just. like a whole thing. And so, finally, I. just got to a point where, considering. the pattern of our relationship, and I. had certainly put to bed the things that. did not happen in childhood. Like, all. that stuff was dead to me. Like, I I. wasn't carrying that at all. I was all. about, let's reframe and be on to this. new relationship. But, it was such a. lack of accountability and awareness,

and I felt like I was pouring more into. it than him. And I got to that point Can. I say this, too, since since you brought. this up? This is for all the people who are the. first in their family, or one of the. only in their family to succeed, particularly when you've come from. challenging circumstances, difficult. backgrounds. We all become the First National Bank. to our families. And that's a very difficult thing to. accept. And I know people think, well, you got money, you should be able to.

share it and. give it to everybody in the family. It's. a difficult thing to accept when you're. not seen for being a person. You now. just become a resource for them. You. become the bank. You're no longer even. like human to people. So, I so get that. And I hear for a long time you were. hesitant to even share this part of your. story. Why is now the right time? Well, I was hesitant, and it was something. that you have alluded to earlier with. some of your previous guests, because we. know. that, especially as black women, we're.

carrying a different responsibility when. it comes to how we speak about our. community, how we represent our. community. And there are so many. >> a black tax. Yes, there is a black. >> a black tax, correct. There is such a. negative stereotype about black men, and. especially about. black men and their presence in the. home, that we hear all the tropes and. all the negatives and all those kind of. thing, and that they have tried to make. black men the face of absenteeism and. and of, you know, not being the parent. that is there. And so, I was very. hesitant to share the story because I.

didn't want people to then So, you're. piling on. Yeah, start piling on and run. with that narrative. And frankly, the. other part I didn't want either. I. didn't want a whole bunch of people who. ain't got any degree with a PhD or. anything behind their name trying to. diagnose me as somebody who is, "Oh, you're just another bitter black woman.". Or, "Oh, you got daddy issues." I'm. like, I trust me, I do not have daddy. issues. There's been a long line of. black men who have may not have been my. biological father. Uh my mother was. married twice. I had two good.

stepfathers. I had other really positive. black male role models in my life. Right. >> issue. And so, I also didn't want to. have to deal with that part of the. conversation. But, your episode really. was the one that gave me the courage to. say like, "Oh, there's a lot of people. that are actually going through this. I'm not the only one." And it helped to. frankly validate some of what I was. feeling about why I arrived at what it. is, as you said, and it's very true, a. very difficult decision for anybody to.

do, especially when it comes to a. parent. Well, thank you so much, and I hope. everybody reads that that memoir. It's. hard to write a memoir as good as yours. because. one of the things that's really powerful. about your story is that your story. makes me think about my story. And that's what you do for everybody in. that book. So, thank you so much. Thank. you so much for that. Thanks, Jamelle. I. appreciate your support, and I also. thank you for sharing more of your story. here with us today, and I know you speak. for so many others.

And after all this, I'm wishing you. peace. I'm wishing you peace. Okay. So, I read that over two out of five. members of Gen Z are in some form of. regular therapy. Isn't that That is an incredible number. to me, y'all. You know why? Because when. I first started the Oprah show. uh. in 1986 nationally. I remember audience members standing up. and said, "I will never go to therapy. I.

mean I I mean I think therapy is for. like people who are crazy or out of. their minds." So, the idea that now two. out of five are going to therapy uh it's. a case for older generations who grew up. in a time when mental health treatment. was absolutely taboo. At my school in South Africa that I. opened in 2007. and we had, you know, three therapists. on board at the time, we could get none. of the girls who had been severely. traumatized to even go to therapy.

because it had been so stigmatized. So, Dr. Gibson, how do grandparents, parents, and their children bridge this. gap? Yeah, I mean because of the. explosion in self-help books and. self-awareness and self-development. there has been a similar increase in the. interest in therapy. So, that's that's a. cultural fact now. But, you know, when when older. generations talk about not understanding.

all this therapy stuff or why it's okay. now to go to therapy uh or what's the. importance of uh boundaries or why are. people making such a big deal out of. this, I think that there is a real blind. spot toward children and toward the. younger generations that really is. something that. needs to change. What I mean is that I. don't care what generation you are, boomer, uh millennial, whatever you know what.

boundaries are. You don't say certain. things to your boss. You don't cop. certain attitudes toward authority. figures. I mean, we know we we we humans. are a hierarchical. group of of beings and we understand. that there are boundaries and there is a. need for tact and there are things that. we can and can't say to other people and. get away with it. But somehow when it's.

our children. there is a sense of them being a part of. us and so we feel that a sort of a right. or an entitlement to tell them what we. think or to. >> Not only that, but Nedra can speak to. this, too. In the African-American. community, I remember growing up, you. know, and hearing quite often, you know, I brought you in this world, I can take. you out. I mean, there is this feeling. of. My. black photographer right now, cameraman. is like laughing. Have you not heard.

that before? I don't know if y'all heard. that in your white families, I brought. you in this world and I can take you. out, but that's how we grew up. Like, you are mine to do with whatever I want. You you know what I'm speaking about, right, Nedra? Yeah, I'm I'm I'm hearing. that and I'm like, I should say that to. my kids and see if they even know what. that means. I brought you in this world. and I can take you out. their black upbringing. They would be. like, what? What did you just say, Mom? What does that even mean? >> talking about. >> [laughter].

>> But yeah, I I heard that and I also. heard this. bottomless plea to tolerate abuse, this. bottomless plea to accept more from. people. You know, so-and-so is that way. You just have to avoid this with that. person. If so-and-so comes over, you. need to stay away from them. You know, so there are also things going on that. people were aware of and it was put on. the child or the victim to protect.

themselves and I think that's also one. of these things that we're now seeing. people say, well, I don't want to be a. part of the the the family reunion if. so-and-so is going to be there. I don't want to show up for family. dinner if nobody else is taking a stand. with me against this thing." Yes. And. this may not surprise you. The United. States ranks as the most individualistic. nation, y'all, in the world, where. personal goals outweigh collective ones. Dr. Coleman, uh could our American way, this.

individualism, thinking about your own self, empowerment for yourself, which is good. in many ways, could this be. contributing, do you think, Dr. Coleman, to the estrangement? I think uh high. rates of individualism absolutely is a. pathway to estrangement, because there. are whole continents where estrangement. is considered to be a completely bizarre. or foreign idea. The idea that you'd cut. off your family or parent is considered. completely wrong. And you know, I think. this moment, there's good news and. there's bad news. Uh the good news is.

that adult children now have the power. to cut off truly abusive parents. The. bad news is that a lot of parents who. are getting cut off today weren't. necessarily bad or abusive or difficult, but they're being treated in some ways. like they were. Yeah, they haven't been. abusive, but they have offended their. child. They've they've engaged with them. in a way that the adult that the now. adult child finds difficult. Here's the. problem. Okay, so here here here here's. what I'd I'd like to clear up, and I. want all of you all to speak to, because.

I want to know. for all of the people who are listening, people hearing about this for the first. time, when do you, as therapists, feel. that it is appropriate to have no. contact or cut off relationships? When. is it appropriate? Dr. Coleman, then. I'll go to you, Nedra, and you, Dr. Gibson. Well, Oprah, I'm happy to answer. that question. Um but I think before I. answer that question, I want to have to. stress that even when it's justified, even when I go, "Yeah, I go ahead, you.

need to do that. I get it." Um, estrangement is a cataclysmic event in. every family system. The day a parent is. cut off, they also cut off access to the. grandchildren. That's a tragedy and a. trauma not only to that grandparent and. to that grandchild. Also, siblings get. cut off. It's typical, this is true in. some of the guests today and last time, that one sibling's going to line up with. the parents, others are going to line up. with the estranging sibling. But I might. ask also is that people don't do it. forever. You know, maybe you need to go.

no contact as a way to set a limit. Maybe you do it for 6 months. Maybe you. do it for a year. But what about after. that period of time coming back and. telling that parent, "Look, I need. things to be really different with you. if we're going to have a relationship. Either you need to get into therapy or. we need to get into family therapy or I. can't be in a relationship with you.". Okay. Nedra, what do you say? With. adults, the only time that I have talked. about someone estranging from a parent.

or and or sibling is when there is an. active physical or sexual abuse issue or. if there is a physical or sexual safety. concern. And those things for therapists. are reportable by law. Outside of that, our clients are. typically coming to us with this ideal. on their own or they have spoken about. it so much that they make this decision. and I may support them in it. I don't. direct that path for them, though. I.

don't say, "Have you ever thought about. cutting your mom off? Would you stop. talking to her? How long are you going. to tolerate this?" I don't say things. like that because I truly believe they. have to live with the consequences, which is guilt, which is other family. cut-offs, which is, you know, feeling. shame and all sorts of things. So, I. don't want to direct that path for you, but I will listen. I will support if. that's what you choose, but it's never a.

thing that I need to present to a person. for their life. Dr. Gibson. Yeah, I I totally agree with Nedra. I. mean, that is my position as well. Um however, I just want to add here that. more often than not uh people are coming. to that conclusion themselves as we're. going through the process of therapy and. self-awareness and self-growth. They end. up feeling like they need some space,

some separation in order to get their. feet back under them to. uh. you know, see where they stand with. things before maybe reentering the. relationship with the parent or even. knowing what it is that they want. to ask for from the parent to get clear. about that. But yeah, I I don't I don't. bring up estrangement as a uh solution. to anybody's problem. But as Nedra said, they often come to.

that or they come into the therapy. session with that on their mind. But. having written the book on adult. children of emotionally immature. parents, do you recommend them trying to. come to some understanding of what it. means to come from an emotionally. immature parent? Yeah, I mean, if you. look at my book, I have um at least one. chapter on trying to understand what. happened to these parents and what has. made them so defensive and Yeah, that's. what I Yeah, I.

Yeah, you do the what happened to Yeah. Yeah, and then I also have uh an. extensive chapter in there about how to. deal with them in a way that you protect. yourself and you have boundaries and you. maintain that connection with yourself. instead of giving everything over to, you know, the parent's opinion. Got it. I wanted to bring Tanya back. Tanya, thanks for joining us again. because you expressed earlier that you. had separated no contact because you. were looking for peace, but it only.

ended up causing you more pain. I want. to know how did you get to a place of. reconciliation and how long did it take? I mean, I was estranged for 2 years. Myself I was estranged for 2 years. So, when it really came to my estrangement, what helped me is learning. First, I want to say that my I had a. therapist too, by the way. And they're. right when they're saying we come to. that decision ourselves. When I was. talking to a therapist, it was very. uncovering everything that happened. You. know, okay, so tell me what happened. How did that make you feel? So, I was.

building this villain image around my. mother in particular. And and it it. compounded. So, I when I cut her off, I. was my unhealthiest though. I had. chronic anxiety, insomnia. I was trying. to deal with all of it and I was. obviously blaming that on her. Until I. really understood like they talked about. stage two and three of my healing. journey, it really came when I rewrote. my mother's story, Oprah. That's what. happened. I said, "Okay, she was the. youngest daughter, the 15th out of 16. kids. Her dad died when she was three. Her mother definitely neglected her in.

unintentional ways. And so, when I. rewrote that and I started to have more. compassion, I said, "Okay, to her, even. though she failed my emotional needs and. needs in a lot of ways, she did. literally the best that she could." Now, that's not to say that, you know, everyone is doing the best and you can. use that as an excuse, but for me when I. really understood that, I said, "I. cannot expect her to be this incredibly. emotionally mature person when she never. had the tools that I'm now presented. with at her age." Got it. So, you. rewrote her story and in rewriting her. story, it ended up rewriting your story.

or your narrative with her. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you for that. All. right, we're moving on to other guests. Trisha's joining us. She hasn't talked. to her sister in nearly a year. Trisha, thanks for being here. What's going on? Thank you. This isn't something I ever. saw myself talking about so publicly, but I feel it's really important, so. thank you for this. We grew up in a. household where it was very controlled. and religious. Our father was a.

preacher, and family roles were very clearly. defined. And as preacher's kids, there's. kind of like a spotlight on you, and. people look at you, and our parents. wanted us to model Be perfect. >> you'd be perfect, yeah. >> And my sister, she's the firstborn, she's the oldest, so that came easy to. her. That was right in her field. She. was the responsible one. She was the one. we modeled ourselves after. I'm the. middle child. I'm a little more. emotional. I'm the peacekeeper in the.

family. I handle everyone's emotions. And then my brother is the youngest, and. he's the baby. He kind of got attention. only for being the only boy, and as we. got older, those roles just followed us. into adulthood. And we had a lot of layered family. trauma happened to us, so there was a. lot of change in our family system. The roles, the dynamics, there was. confusion. I'm estranged from my sister, and her and I haven't talked in a year, but I still have a relationship with my.

brother. Okay. Do you have a question. for one of our experts? I do for um Miss uh Gibson. Um when choosing emotional safety, cuz. that's what I did, when choosing. emotional safety, I had to grieve a. version of myself that was always. accommodating to people and always. available to people. How would you tell. people to honor that grief without shame. or without self-doubt? Hm, good. question. Yeah. That part of you, the part of you that.

wants to be accommodating and. collaborative, and wants to do nice. things for people, that is a precious. part of your personality. That's that's. kind of the the open joyous child part. of you. That may have been commandeered. to become sort of a pleaser of your. parents or of your family members and in. that way it may feel like it's something. that you need to get rid of. But it's. really your superpower because who do.

people like to work with? Who do people. like to be around? Who do people feel. energized by? They're people that have. those characteristics. of being. you know receptive to other people and. being accommodating and so forth. So. that's not something that we want to get. rid of. We want to celebrate that in you. and also raise it like a precious child. of yours that you know honey, I know you.

want to please them or give in to them. or agree with them, but maybe that's not. going to be the best thing for us this. time. Yeah. >> So just hang back and let me handle. this. You can do that kind of different. part of yourself work where you don't. have to get rid of or lose that lovely. part of yourself, but you also don't. have to let it drive the car so to. speak. You as the adult get to do that. I love that.

>> I love that. And also rewriting as Tanya. was saying earlier rewriting that part. of your story, rewriting that that that. narrative for yourself. You get to write. another story. about yourself. Yeah, you do. Thank you. Trisha. Erica and her husband David are. joining us and I hear you watch this. episode together. How did him. How did [clears throat] it impact each. of you? Well for me, yeah, it was very. validating. We felt very seen similar to. what other people had shared since even.

though it's becoming more aware and. obvious to other people, it still feels very lonely within our. own communities and with our. friendships, so it was nice to have some. context outside of ourselves. And this. is because you have been estranged from. or no contact with whom? Uh, my own father and now my mother and. my sister and then David's family as. well. Really? You both are no contact? Yes. Yes, but the episode really impacted me.

directly cuz it it talked about how. there can be some room for the future. and and reconciliation and moving. forward. The father, I think his name was Aaron, talked about a lot of the. self-reflection meant a lot. And um, after watching the episode, I actually. forwarded it to my own father who. we are still in contact with him, but. then he shared it with our other family. members that were not necessarily in. contact with and they didn't even want.

to. take the time to listen. And that's what. really kind of hurts us a lot is that. we're not being heard. We're not We're. not getting listened to. I know, which. is one of the the most important, I. think, experiences that everybody needs. to have is to know that you were heard. and that you were seen and that what you. had to say mattered. And so, if you're. going to be just dismissed, I hear you. would both like to begin, as you just. said, to repair the estrangement. So,

let's ask our experts. What's the advice. on what to do? Beginning with you, Dr. Coleman. Well, first of all, I applaud. you for to try to give your family a way. to. work towards reconciliation and I sort. of wish a lot more adult children who. were estranged would do that, whether. it's by giving them, you know, my book. or somebody else's book or some other. some other pathway to reconciliation. So, the task, I think, you know, it's. very, very hard and and I can say this. as a parent who whose daughter had cut.

him off, and they eventually did. reconcile. It's incredibly hard for a. parent to hear the ways that they failed. their child. We're going to get. defensive. You know, we're going to feel. hurt, and we may respond with anger. We. may try to shut you down, and we're. shutting you down because of the ways. that we feel hurt or ashamed or. embarrassed or humiliated. We feel like. we're failing at our most very important. task. And so, I think the more if your. goal is reconciliation with your parent, to really let them know that your goal. in raising these topics isn't to shame.

them, to hurt them, to criticize them, to make them feel bad about themselves. It's really an expression of love. It's. really an expression of a desire to feel. closer. Mhm. Do they know why you're. estranged? Yes. I've had many. conversations, and and even my dad has. relayed. the same information about how he wants. to support, and I think his most recent. comment was even just sit down and and. listen to him, and get up, and don't. even say anything. And and. unfortunately, my mother doesn't want to.

either do that. She can't listen. It. always has to be a. tit-for-tat or what about you type of. situation that makes it it really hard. to reconcile cuz there's just no. self-awareness. There's no. self-reflection of what did I do to this. situation, or what am I contributing to. this problem? Yeah, in reality, some. parents just don't have that capacity, and then some adult children don't have. the capacity to communicate. >> is a really powerful word because if the. person doesn't have the capacity, it's.

like, you know, rolling a boulder up a. hill. You you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you you you. you you you you you you you you. and. there's nothing more to be done. I don't. know when you reach that point. Nedra, do you have some thoughts on that, and. Dr. Gibson? Yeah, what I'm thinking. about here is it sounds like someone has. to concede. Yes. >> Because if your mother is unwilling to.

hear any other way, I think there has to. be some acceptance on your end that some. of your your needs may not be met. Mhm. And you will have to tolerate this to. the extent that you can. I don't think. this sounds like a situation where you. go back into it and all parties leave. happy with what they're bringing to the. table. So, there will be some. concessions in this situation and you'll. have to sit with yourself and say, you. know, if I am in this relationship, how can I.

manage it differently? Mhm. You know, and and and you don't want to leave it. It sounds like you really want to be in. it, but it does sound like something. that needs to be managed in a different. way this time. >> I mean, I just say to you all, uh, Erica. and David, that Dr. Coleman's use of the. word capacity struck me and I'm always. struck by that word because years ago I. read a memoir in which somebody was. talking about their family relationship. and they realized that their family. member didn't have the capacity.

to fulfill. the needs they they had as a child nor. as adult. And when I read that, it was. just so eye-opening to me cuz I. realized, oh, all this time I've been. pushing uphill and struggling and. resisting and resisting what is in my. face with my own family relationships, oh, the person doesn't have the. capacity. And when I recognized. that particular word, you know, struck me and opened me in. such a way that I really oh, I'm never.

going to win this. I'm never going to be. able to convince somebody who doesn't. have the capacity to receive it, that's. when I was able to find peace within. myself and have the boundaries or set up. what I needed, you know, to best survive. in that relationship. When you realize. that that person doesn't have the. capacity, that's a huge, huge place to. get to in terms of acceptance. I just. wanted to share that and how profound an. impact that word had had has had on my. own life and my own relationships. When.

you're dealing with somebody who doesn't. have the capacity, it's hard. >> Yeah, and that's been our experience as. well. And I appreciate you sharing that. because it took us a while to get to. that point to be able to accept where. their limitations were. And that did. give us more, I guess freedom might be. the word. >> Yeah. Um but also so we could stand firm. in why we had set the boundaries the way. that we did, that were good. meat for our family and our own needs, not demanding anything of them that.

wasn't realistic. We just offered. resources or attempts at solutions like. through mediation and. they have just shown no interest in. that. So. >> But I will just say it it it you're. coming to terms as Nedra was saying, you're coming to terms and accepting. accepting. that they don't have the capacity brings. you peace so that you're not in. resistance to still pushing and hoping. and wishing and trying and giving and.

not receiving. It's It's the acceptance. that they don't have the capacity. Dr. Gibson, what do you want to say? Yeah, along those lines, I'm reminded of. a client I had who just couldn't seem to. grasp that her mother was as superficial. as she was. And it drove her crazy that. her mother seemed to oversimplify. everything, see it in black and white. You couldn't reason with her because of. that very limited perspective.

And we talked a lot about her mother's. limited complexity, that her mother just. didn't have the tolerance for ambiguity. She didn't have a complex enough. personality structure to really take. things in and think about them deeply. And what if she thought of her mom as. someone who saw the world in 2D, where. she sees it in 3D? Could she still. relate to her mom at some level across. some common ground in the 2D world where.

her mother lived? And that was very. helpful to her. And the other thing that. I would mention is, you know, along with. the acceptance comes a different form of. goal for the relationship. That is, instead of trying to have an intimate. relationship between two people who are. capable of a complex relationship. >> Right. >> How about just trying to relate to them. Mhm. as people who are very different. I.

mean, humanly different from you in. terms of what they can tolerate and what. they can think about, what they can. reflect on. And if your goal is to have, you know, a pleasant enough interaction. or to or or to relate to them in that. way, that may be much more achievable. than trying to have this relationship. where they are under you know, where. they feel understood by the parent cuz. that may not be able to happen like. that. >> And and I think some many times, too, we're holding on to this idea of what we.

think the relationship should be. It's. Well, I mean, they seem like they should. be able to do that. They are. >> Yeah, it seems like you should, but. you're not going to have that. >> wise about some things. It seems like. they should be able to do it, but it. gets back to that point about the. acceptance. That is not the reality. >> Not the reality. Erica and David, thank. you. And I and and listen, it makes us. all who work here on the Oprah podcast. feel really good that you watched it and. shared it with other family members and. that it actually impacted you in a way. that made you think about doing things.

differently. Thank you so much and we. wish you the best. Thank you so much. >> bringing light to the matter. It's. something that's hard to talk about, but. much needed. Yeah. Let's keep talking. about it. Thank you all so much. And. thank you to all my guests. Thank you, Jemele Hill and your beautiful memoir. Uphill. Thank you, Tanya and Trisha. Thank you. Thank you, Tanya for that. post. Thanks to these experts, all of. you, all three of our experts for. returning to this conversation. Dr. Coleman's book is Rules of Estrangement.

Dr. Gibson has an upcoming book on how. to raise an emotionally mature child. that comes out in April. And Nedra. Glover Tawwab's book is The Balancing. Act Creating healthy dependency and. connection without losing yourself. It's. in stores right now. And I hope this. conversation has opened up even more. space for a little compassion, some. understanding for yourself or maybe. someone you love who's going through. this. We'll keep talking. Go well, everybody. See you next time.

You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.