Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love

It is a joy to be with you here on the. Oprah podcast and I know [music]. your time means a lot to you so I think. uh it's just so special for me that you. all are listening or watching watching. on YouTube. Lots of people have uh. Valentine's Day on their [music] minds. this week and I know that for some. people that brings up thoughts of. romance and lack of romance but [music]. my guest is renowned renowned as a. relationship therapist and [music].

expert. She studies it, she knows it in. her spirit and her heart, in her brain. Esther Perel [music] says all of our. relationships with our family, with our. friends, even our neighbors have a real. impact on our most intimate. relationships. So, welcome [music] to. the tea house. Thank you. Relationships are changing rapidly. [music]. Modern romance is undergoing an extreme. makeover. Esther Perel is a psychotherapist and.

best-selling author who's been. counseling couples for over three. decades. You know, it's a little bit like sex. It. used to be that you had [music] to be. ashamed if you had sex, now you are. ashamed if you don't. I think your greatest gift is her. intuitive insight [music]. into the human heart and mind. She. really blows me away. Wow, I could cry over that. [music]. That resonates really powerfully with. me. I I heard that. Did you hear it, Jen? Absolutely. Her hit podcast, Where Should We Begin, is a must-listen for anybody looking to. better understand [music] the.

complexities of relationships. One of the most challenging things about. relationships and marriage in [music]. general has been communication. I mean, sexual candor is really. difficult. Esther sees [music] beyond the stories. we tell ourselves. How did you know that? You don't even. know her. And she's here to offer her unflinching. truths. Say that again. Foreplay starts. at the end of the previous orgasm. So, everybody, thanks for joining us on. this podcast. I'm so happy you're one of the people.

who is speaking the truth to families. and people in relationships in a way, I. think, that resonates profoundly and is. actually changing the way people see. themselves in their lives and. relationships. So, power to you for doing that in the. world. Thank you. That's right. And may I tell you, I don't know how I. discovered these cards. I actually don't. even remember how, but I actually. ordered these on Amazon for myself. I.

got them for. myself and then I loved them so much, I. sent them out to friends because this is. what happens. When people come for. dinner. and or come over for an evening and not. everybody knows everybody, what I've. found is that if you go through the. cards and you pull out the cards and you. make sure that the sexy cards are not. there. If children are there, Mhm. and then I have a thing where everybody. pulls a card and then I have them do.

another card and then another card. We. do rounds of people pulling cards. So, you have a whole stack of cards. So, you. don't just get one card, you get to. choose from that card the question that. you want to answer and we go around and. around and it is so. uh. Storytelling night. It's storytelling it becomes. storytelling and it becomes an. opportunity for people to express things. and say things. I mean, I've learned. things about my godchildren that I did. not know and so, where should we begin, which is I know based on your podcast.

You've been doing that popular podcast. for a few years now. Eight. Eight. Yes. Yes. So, which is just a perfect title. I I love it. And so, where. It's how I start many sessions, you. know. It's like. You sit with new people you've never met. and you just say, "Okay, where should we. begin?". Yes. And I love this question. I just. pulled these for us today. Something I. wish I had been told as a child. What. would that be for you? Something I wish I'd been told as a.

child. The first thing that just jumped into my. head is this. My mother told me that I. came from the stork. Mhm. And what I wish I had been told as a. child was that this was there was no. such a thing. as a stork. as a stork. I was 9 years old when I. understood that this is. not true. No. And that it says more about her. discomfort with the subject. Yes. than. than anything. than anything else. And then I began to.

dig and try to find, you know, so then. where exactly did I come from? And when. I told her, you know, actually I came. from you, she said, "We'll discuss this. one day.". And did she ever? Never. Never. Never. Oh, that was the day where people were. so uncomfortable. When when people think and you are a. sexologist and you must have had an No, no, no. I grew up in utter ignorance. Wow. I wish I had been told a lot of things. in that domain. Yeah. Well, I my answer to that I would. say I wish I had been told.

that I was loved. Yes. Cuz I don't I I never ever heard. I love you or or or had the feeling of. you are loved as a child. So, I wish I'd. been told. It's a very It's a very common answer. Is it? Yes. I wish I had been told I was loved, I am capable, I'm worthy of something, I. miss you. I mean, many things that. people want to hear have to do with. feeling basically feeling seen, feeling.

acknowledged, feeling valued. You know. I know so many people get so much out of. your podcast. Why did you decide to do. the podcast and what was your hope and. greatest intention for it? So, I spent 35 years in my office seeing. patients. I still do. And at one point, I started to wish that people would hear. some of the powerful insights that occur. in the conversations in my office. And.

not that many people can actually enter. the kind of healing that takes place. And I just thought, I have to open the. door to this office so that people can. hear not everything takes place in a. therapy office. How do I bring those. stories to the world at large? How do I. create what has become a public health. campaign for relationships worldwide? And. and that was my invitation is first I. opened the doors and I come to you, but. then I want you to actually become a fly.

on the wall and listen in to the raw, intimate, anonymous conversations of. others. And you will see yourself. If. you listen intensely to others, you see. yourselves even if it's not your exact. That's right. Even if it's not your. story, you can see yourself in the other. story. So, I hear that you now think. that modern romance is going through. some kind of change or makeover. What do. you What's going on out there? What's. changed? So, one of the things that changes is.

that we are today looking for a soulmate. on an app. And a soulmate is the one and only, which basically has always meant God, and now it's your partner. Yeah. And with this partner, you want to. experience transcendence and wholeness. and ecstasy and meaning, all the things. that you actually used to look for in. the realm of the divine. And now you want that with your partner. So, people say, well, are we asking for. too much? And I say, no, we don't. We.

can have a number of enormous. expectations, but we are asking one. person to give us what once an entire. village used to provide. I want with you. what everything traditional. relationships were about companionship, economic support, family life, social. status. But now I also want you to be my. best friend and my trusted confidant and. my intellectual equal and my fitness. buddy and my professional coach and last. but not least my passionate lover. And. all of this for the long haul. And this.

long haul keeps on getting longer, right? And then we have taken love, commitment, intimacy away from our. relationships with family, with friends, with neighbors. All these other. relationships are weakening and all of. this is being brought into. modern love. So, modern intimacy today. is me talking to you, you're validating. me, you're reflecting on me and I am. momentarily going to transcend my.

existential aloneness and modern. intimacy becomes into me see. Oh, into me see. Yeah. That's where we are. That's modern romance as I begin to see. But when you were saying that, I. remember early on. in my relationship with Stedman, Maya. Angelou, my advisor and friend, wise. woman, was saying, "Do not your life is. a whole pie. Your life is made up of a. whole pie." Much of what you were just. saying about a village. And so do not.

expect one person to represent. everything that the pie is supposed to. represent. Totally agree. So is it is So based upon what you just. said, everybody expects your partner now. to really be what the realm of the. divine used to be in people's lives. Isn't that too much? I think it is. I think we cannot have. one person give us what the whole. community should represent. And I think.

that we are actually overburdening our. relationships and then we get very. disillusioned. And then we find. Because you don't fulfill all of those. things, I'm going to eliminate you from. my life because you you're. you are not perfect. And I'll find someone else who I think. can actually meet all my needs. And then that person's not going to be. able to do it either. So, what is your. advice to someone who's listening who. may be feeling. um alone right now, especially this.

week? People get so hung up on what the. Valentine experience means or doesn't. mean, and I don't have, and I didn't. get, and I wasn't acknowledged, and. the the to actually continue directly. from what we just said, love, intimacy, being valued, being cherished, don't. just imagine that it takes place in your. romantic relationship. So, Valentine's. all, make it about love, and it's the. love that you share with all the people. of your life. If you don't have a. partner at this time, that doesn't mean.

you're excluded from the event. That's right. And then, how do you feel less lonely? In general, we feel less lonely when we. connect with others, and we feel that we. are able to bring a smile to their face, and suddenly we realize that we matter, and that something is happening. Yesterday, I was literally thinking. about these questions, and I'm walking. here in in Santa Barbara by the beach, and as I'm thinking this, a woman stops. me, and she says, "Can you help me come. down the steps?" And so, I help her walk.

down. So, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I. says, "No, thank you for giving me this. opportunity. I just feel like I was able. to do something for someone, and when I. left, she had a smile, I had a smile, and we momentarily felt less lonely. And. that happens in small incremental. things, you know? What happens today is. modern loneliness masks as. hyperconnectivity. I mean, you can have. a thousand virtual friends, and no one. to feed your cat. Oh, I love that. You can have a thousand. friends on.

social media and no one to feed your. cat. Let alone pick up a prescription at the. pharmacy, let alone pick you up at the. airport, let alone so many things. You know, but they give you a parasocial. relationship with a little like and it. leaves you. you know, not really feeling fed. Yeah, I was going to say you end up. feeling. emptier. Yeah. Emptier. And you teach a course on. turning conflict into uh. connection. Yeah. And I've always wanted to know why is it.

does it seem that couples fight over and. over about the same thing? [gasps]. Because they're actually fighting not. about certain things, but they're. fighting for certain things. Ooh. If you think you're fighting about, then. you think that you're arguing about, you. know, why did you put the straw in this. glass? You know, and now we're going to. have a whole argument about the straw. about the straw. No, what people typically fight for I.

think can be summarized in three basic. things. It's based on the work of Howard. Markman, but people fight over power and. control. Whose decisions matter more? Who has the. priorities? You know, you hear it in sentences on. the podcast all the time. People say, you know, you don't value my. contributions with the children. You. constantly undermine me. We are doing. everything on your terms. We have sex. when you want, we live where you want, we travel where you want. You're the. boss. Yeah. Power and control. People fight for.

closeness and care. Trust. Do you have. my back? Can I rely on you? Can I lean. on you? And what we hear is, you know, um. I open myself, I share my anxiety and. instead of supporting me you fly back in. my face. You know, that. You're not my soft place to fall. No, and and when your mother says things. about me instead of uh protecting me you. are lying with her. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that that kind stuff. And people. fight for respect and recognition.

Meaning, do you value me? You know, is my contribution recognized? Do I matter? And that is, you know, sentences like. I do so much and I don't think you ever. value me. When you want to go see. people, you just go, you know, without. even checking in with me. Like you like. you unilaterally making your choices. And. ultimately, you know, I had a. a thing in a podcast episode where they. come in and they start to argue because.

he left the closet door open. Wow. couldn't enter into the closet. Yeah. And now follows the whole fight about. the cat closet. Did the cat enter the closet or could. I couldn't care less. I don't listen to. the story. You know, all I hear is now. we are talking they're talking about the. closet, the door, the cat litter, the. cat. And all I am thinking is what is it. that they're really fighting about? What. is he saying? He's saying, "You're not. the boss of me." Then you're not the. boss of me means, you know, he had a. very dominant father who talks.

constantly. Yeah. And so that's what he's fighting for. He's fighting about the closet, but he's. fighting for power and control. I guess we're joining us on Zoom that I. think a lot of you are going to relate. to. So, let's jump in. Christina and. Stefan are in Atlanta and I hear that. you two are very much in love and you're. raising three beautiful boys, four, six, and nearly eight. Okay? Where should we begin? What's going on?

Hi, guys. Hey, how are you? Hi. How are you? Yeah, so so things are incredible with. us. Um I love my wife. We've been. married nearly 10 years. It'll be 10. years in April. Um she's my best friend. As you. mentioned, we're raising three amazing. boys. We're in ministry together. So, we're in the process of planting a. church. So, we do a lot of stuff. together. And in our first year of. marriage, we're talking about intimacy. So, first year of marriage, um when it.

comes to the frequency of it, it was. very high. Going into year 10, it's still very. good, but when you look at all the. things that we're doing, the energy that we're exerting, all of. the things that we're doing. And one of. our kids has autism, so that that's a. lot on her as well. I'm trying to figure out how to make. sure. she has a lot more in the tank. when it comes down to. time with with me. Because the boys take.

a lot, right? At the end of the day, she's ready to park. I'm ready to go. full speed fast. Yeah. So, that's that's where we are. Well, you got the best expert here to. help you. And your question is, how do I get her. to want more? Yeah. So, you know, I'm able to. compartmentalize. the work that we have to do during the. day, and I can have some left in the. reserve. When we get to the end of the day for. her, she's a lot more exhausted. And I.

get it. There's more of an emotional. toll on her being a mom, and the boys. are pulling on her more so than me, but. I want her to be able to. compartmentalize like I can. Are you prepared to change tracks? Am I prepared to change tracks? Yes. Yes. I'm I'm prepared to do whatever I need. to do. Wonderful. Beautiful. Can I hear from. you just a bit? Christian? Yeah, I'm I So, like you said, I'm. tired. Come 8:00, I'm ready to tap out and retire. But I. try to explain to him, there's a.

biological connection I have with the. children. I'm a light sleeper, so any. little breath, it feels like I I wake. up. So, I feel like I'm not getting. adequate sleep, although. you know, I I fall asleep early. But, um. it's like I'm trying to explain to him. the different ways that men and women. approach sex. Like, he can go and I need. like a. I need time to build it. And I love him. and I'm attracted to him. That's That's. not the thing, but I'm very much aware. our marriage is a movement. I really. value that. So. Okay.

Maybe we first switch a little bit the. way we think here, right? And that is very often when we think. about. sex, we think about an act and an. outcome, something that we do. And instead of thinking of it like that, I would probably want to switch you to. think more about an experience. Not what do you do in sex, but where do. you go in sex? What parts of yourselves. do you connect with? What do you want to. experience there? What do you want to. express there?

And then you will notice that for some. people desire is autonomous. As you say, I come, I'm ready, spontaneous erection, autonomous, I don't need any prep. I'm. I'm go, you know? But the majority of. other people. are responsive. With the call with it's. called what we call responsive desire, meaning they don't come ready. They are. maybe sometimes open or willing. That willingness, you know, I'm not. always hungry. I see you eating. I'm.

sitting next to you. It looks like it's. quite good. I taste. I'm open. I'm. curious. I'm want to see where this. takes me. Slowly I find myself I take. out a plate. I'm actually eating a whole. meal. I wasn't really hungry to begin. with and I could have done without, but. I'm happy I did it. You know, that. switch for you instead of thinking, how. do I get her to also be able to. compartmentalize and be ready, I'm sorry to say, it may not work. And she's going to get frustrated.

Rather than you're understanding that. foreplay starts at the end of the. previous orgasm. It's not a 5 minute. before the real thing. And you give and. you. Say that again. Foreplay starts. at. the end of the previous orgasm. Not just, you know, 5 minutes before you. get going. Absolutely. So, instead of thinking you are the norm and. she is the problem, how do I get her to. change? You understand that for a lot of. people, it's willingness that gets us. going and that is a wonderful thing. I'm.

open, I'm willing to see. And then, here's the piece. A lot of. relationships, male-female. relationships, you're going to tell me. probably nothing turns me on more than. to see her turned on. Yeah? Yeah, love it. Now, it is most likely that she will. say, "Whatever happens to him is kind of. irrelevant to me.". Because what is what gets me going is. what happens to her, not what happens to.

you. And that means that she needs to be able. to enter into her own erotic self. And. that means that she needs to be able to. let go of the role of mother, caretaking, responsible, making sure. that everybody is fine, worrying about. the well-being of others. That is the. essential liberation that any woman. needs to feel, especially when I hear. what Christina just said about that. biological instant response that she has. to the kid. It's how do I allow that to.

recede and I trust that everybody's fine. so that I can finally enter into myself. and give myself the permission to think. about me and experience my own pleasure. Give her the permission to be slightly. more selfish in the moment because. desire is that attention onto me that. says, "I deserve, I can be, I can enjoy, and everything there is is fine, and. that's how I can let go.". I love what you said about where do you. want to go, and I saw you I saw.

something in your eyes, where do you. want to go, and where what do you want. to experience. in this sexual encounter that it's not. just about the act. Did that resonate. with you, Christina? Tremendously, because my first orgasm. was with my husband. Hey. And I have to get there mentally. [laughter]. I'm being honest. Everything before him. was performative, you know, and. I I like that Esther said to make it an. experience again. Like remember it's.

something that we share that nothing no. one else you you know, something. supernatural happens and I feel it when. we're there, but initially it's I feel. like it's a it's a chore to get there, but if I can train my mind to think, where do I want to go with him right. now? This is our secret place and train. myself there, I feel like I can like. anything work a muscle again, you know, and tap into the erotic side. But you need to be willing to ask for. things. What starts to happen when you're in. that kind of a dance is that he says.

yay, you say nay, and your emphasis is. on all the nays and his emphasis is on. all the yays. So, it's about you asking, do I want to just relax? Do I want. something more sensual? Do I want us to. be naughty? Do I want to just have fun? Do I want to connect? Do I want to just. be taken care of? All of these are. places that we go in the erotic that. have you know, you can as you just said, you can do a lot in sex and feel. absolutely nothing. Women have done that. for centuries. You know, in the erotic you can do very.

little and feel a lot. But for that you. need to ask for certain things and know. that you have someone who really. appreciates it and welcomes it. Because. then, you know, he likes to give, he. likes to make you feel good, and. even if it's just, you know, small. little things, it's about pleasure, not. about performance or outcome. This makes sense? It it does, and what's interesting is. one of the most challenging things about. relationships and marriage in general. has been communication. see.

I mean, sexual candor is really. difficult. You know, and and here's the thing. The. majority of people often fall in a trap. where they think that they will want. more sex from talking about all the sex. they don't want. [laughter]. Okay, you got it. Yeah. You know, it's like we talk about the. problem we talk about. why women are reluctant like if we have. a conversation about it, we're going to. talk about it, it's going to make you. want more of it, and I'm just trying to. have a conversation about it. That's. what you're saying, Christina. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I just want to cuddle and it's. going to spark so let me go to sleep. leads to other things. fall asleep. I'm [laughter] just tired. but. It's hard to just It's hard to just. cuddle. I tried to explain that to her. because I want her morning, noon, night. from dusk till dawn. And if she's like, let's just cuddle, there are things that happen to me. biologically as a man that just don't. allow me to sit there and cuddle. Okay. So, you know, you know, maybe if I.

communicate that better like what. actually happens in those moments when. you want to cuddle and things are. happening that can lead to pain. Um. I I you know, we could again communicate. better in those ways. That way she. doesn't feel rejected when she says, "Can we cuddle?" and I say, "No, I. actually need to go watch TV." It's not. to distance her, it's to you know, protect my my well-being in that moment. Cuz you know cuddling's going to lead. you to something else. But a lot of. women feel this. A lot of women say this. all the I just want to cuddle and you're.

reluctant to even initiate cuddling cuz. you know it's going to lead to another. whole thing. Yes, but you can turn that whole thing. You see what happens is that then you. start to say, "I don't even want to. cuddle because then he's going to get. turned on, he's going to get turned on, he's going to want more, he's going to. want more, I'm going to frustrate him, he's going to get up, he's going to be. all upset, he's going to pout, etc.". Yeah? But so turn it around, you know? It's nice that you want her, but it's. also a burden sometimes for her to feel. that she constantly is your one outlet. with whom you need that that basically.

in the end she's doing it for you to. take care of you. That's not what sex is. supposed to be. So, on occasion that is. but not when it becomes I just want to. make sure he doesn't get upset and you. know, then the next day he's in a bad. mood because he's. that whole thing. It's nice for you to say to him, I like. the reaction that you have. Maybe. sometimes you take care of him. Maybe. sometimes you take care of yourself. And. you do it not by in hiding, you do it. next to her because it's okay. And then. sometimes as she watches you, she may.

join you. There's a lot of possibilities. if you don't fall into the trap of. on or off. and afraid to do the slightest move. because my God, if he then reacts, then. I'm going to have to service. You that's the under the subtext from. this dynamic that you that you describe. You know, and then on occasion when you. you just call him and you. whatever it is, you take a bath. together, shower together, you know, something where he experiences your.

invitation. But, the pressure is what you want to. watch. Because you're a high energy guy and you. release a lot to sexually and there's. nothing wrong with it, but you also have. three other boys in this house and so. yes, it's very different from 10 years. ago. And it may come back after the boys. are big older as well. This is you know, so how do you give yourself the. permission to say, Mom, time is off. I.

take off my apron. I take some time. I. transition. I retrieve the woman from. behind the mother. But, it doesn't have to be the full. operation each time. It doesn't have to. be the whole production because. otherwise you are going to get her. shutting down just because she is afraid. that you're going to want the whole. thing. And that is where the women. start to really deprive themselves as. well. That's the other thing. It's like. it deprives because she enjoys being.

with you. That is not the point. You. enjoy being together. You desire her and she desires you. Yes. I hope this has been helpful. Some things to talk about, think about. Thank you. Best microphones yet. Thank you. [laughter]. Thank you guys. Thank you. Next up is. Jen, a married mom from Philadelphia. Jen wrote to us about what she called. her past baggage. How is that impacting. you? What do you want to say. Hello Jen. My story is a little bit different than.

the last brave couple. Although it. certainly resonates I think as moms and. married people. And I had written about past baggage. which I'm not sure. really is relevant to where I am, but I. had been through some sexual trauma as a. child and and through my teenage years. And and. I'd say. in my 20s probably spiraled a bit and. had some commitment issues in my 20s and. 30s and so my story is I got married a.

little bit later in life and I was a. single mom and recently I made a. decision to leave a corporate job. And. so I'm feeling very unsettled and. unbalanced in my relationship I guess is. kind of a long way to to get there. Mhm. And your question. Is the question really Esther is how to. feel. empowered in your relationship or feel. when when you're feeling unbalanced. You. know, I was fiercely independent and I. was a single mom taking care of things.

and now I have made a decision that I'm. going to take a year of a pause. Um. and. it's changed the dynamic in my. relationship. And you feel the vulnerability of the. change of the balance. You feel that you. are more reliant or dependent on your. partner and that is not the way that. you've usually liked it cuz you've. always made sure that. you can stand on your own two feet. Right. And is that fear reinforced by him or.

it's really something that you bring. with you? No, I think it's something that I bring. I think actually what you said in the. beginning about feeling valued and I do. feel that and I'm lucky that I think, you know, I waited so long to get. married cuz I finally found the right. person who I think really truly doesn't. keep score. So it's purely in my head as. somebody who's has been very independent. and trying to figure out how to. So this already is a big a big it it's a. big starting point is your ability to.

say look. I from whatever happened to me in my. life I decided that nobody would ever. have any power over me. That I was going to be in control. Nobody could take advantage. I can take. care of myself. I don't depend on. anybody beyond a certain level. And I have done this well. And then what. happens when you leave work as that. position which was one of the symbols of.

your independence and all of that is. that you are in transition and. transition is by definition no longer. here and not yet there. That's what. transition means. So in transition you. are of balance. It is the nature of that. change to be of balance. There's nothing. wrong with it. It's it's just unknown to. you, unfamiliar. And here is your. opportunity. You have a great guy. that you know is valuing you. That is.

not going to take advantage of what you. call feeling a little bit more. precarious, more unbalanced, more unsure. of myself and all of that. This is your opportunity to really do. some repair from the diary of your. childhood and to actually allow yourself. to lean on someone and to know that you. can and to have someone show up for you. So, instead of how do I empower myself, I would actually invite you to say, "How.

do I allow myself for the first time. ever to take advantage of this big. transition and lean on someone and learn. and experience the depth of trust, something I've yearned for my whole life. and have never allowed myself.". Wow, I could cry over that. That resonates really powerfully with. me. I I heard that. Did you hear it, Jen? Absolutely. I heard that. We received it. for sure. Oh my god, that was so good. Where does it land for you? Just cuz I.

don't know you, so I just took a leap. It's very It's truthful, for sure. And. it And it has been hard for me to lean. on someone cuz I haven't ever done that. before. And so. And I'm I feel like this is a gift of. this transition that I'm able to take. and I'm I'm trying to be open to the. universe and all possibilities that come. in front of me, like getting the. opportunity to speak to both of you. And. so. I do need to receive it.

I thought that was really powerful. How. did you know that? You don't even know. her. [laughter]. No, I don't. Because Because you. You said, "I left a big job. I have. always been independent.". And you kind of said and and implied. was, "How do I continue to feel as. strong as I always did?". Yeah. And I thought, "But this is not about. staying strong." The And then she said, "I have a good guy. I waited and I have.

a good guy." And I thought, "You You. haven't even given him the opportunity. to show you how good he can be. Wow. And what would it be like for you. instead of holding yourself up to. actually leaning on him and experiencing. I mean, you're going to sob maybe. It's. going to bring back this little girl who. fought, you know, to make sure that. she's in charge and nobody takes. advantage. So, you're holding on to that, still.

protecting yourself. Yes. I think probably my whole life. I've. I've done therapy in my 20s and 30s and. I think I've gotten through it, which is. why I can talk about it so openly, but. I'm sure it's still there's still that. little girl in there who wants to take. charge, I'm sure. Yes, and and it goes actually with what. we talked before when you said, "What is. it that people fight for when they are. in conflict?". Yes. The people who fight for power and. control are often people who did. experience various forms of emotional,

psychological, or sexual abuse. Mhm. Because then you that is your adaptive. style. You respond with a strategy for. survival. in control. That's right. That's how you. stay in control. Oh, that resonated with me. the comfort now of feeling safe is is. is getting the strength to to be. vulnerable. a gift for your life. It's the gift. you've been waiting for that therapy. could only offer partially and that it. looks like your partner may be able to. offer you. And now you were you're the one who. brought up the universe and so the.

universe has put you in this position so. you can do exactly what Esther was just. saying. You can lean back into it. You. can lean into him and you can allow. I. love those those two terms that you used. for her. Lean and allow. They're very expansive, by the way. Yes. Yeah. Scary at first, but very expansive. Jen, thank you so much for sharing your. story. Thank. so much. And for matching the walls in the house, [laughter]. for wearing the blouse that matches the.

chair that matches the wall. I mean, really, the decor is perfect. Thank you. [laughter]. Thank you. Thank you. Erica from Texas has been married for 32. years. She has three three adult. children, and now she's starting to have. some doubts. Are you about your marriage? Tell us. why. Hello, Erica. Oh my goodness. Hello, Esther. Hello, [clears throat] Oprah. Thank you all so. much for this opportunity. It It truly. is an honor of mine. Um. well, like I said, I've been married 32.

years. I have three adult grown. children. Um my husband was retired military. He. retired about 10 years ago. We um have. spent a lot of time together. We do a lot of things together, and then. about 8 years ago, my mom suddenly took. ill, and it was just when our husband. retired, and we were looking forward to. moving away, enjoying our lives, and it's just been a. lot, and I looked forward to these days. I looked forward to being an empty.

nester. Uh we have two adult girls who. are now back in the home. I still have. to check on my mom and see about her. I. just got a a call from the caregivers a. few minutes ago. What would you like? What would you. like? I almost instead of saying what is. your question, I would like to ask what. is your wish? What is my wish for myself? Yes. Yes. Cuz you. carry a lot. You've been dutiful, loyal,

responsible, and I as you speak, I experience your. ache for play, for fun, for liveliness, for. exploration, for creativity, for things. that are the opposite of I'm taking care. of my mom, my three children, my. husband, our business. I'm the only daughter. I'm the child. It's. you know, my responsibility, my duty. And you know what's so interesting when. you watch this,

makes me want to tear up. When she asked you what was your wish, what happened to your face? And what makes me want to tear up is I. know nobody's asked you that. Nobody's asked you that. What do you really want? Yeah. I don't know how you knew that, but. that's exactly what I said to myself. I saw it in your eyes, and I know a. stare saw it in your eyes. But I saw it. like. Yeah, you were like cuz you said, "Me?

What?". For myself? For myself? Cuz nobody's asked you that, and you. haven't asked you that. You haven't asked you that. Right. Right? Yes. I I You're so organized around what. do they need from you. And you so just hope that they would. stop asking, but you need to ask. yourself a different question. And that. is really You've done it all, you know? You If you worry about being the good. daughter and the good mother and the.

good spouse, you got your A+. Because otherwise, you know, sometimes. we don't have another way that when we. feel entrapped like that, sometimes we. get sick just as a way of saying I'm off. duty. Yeah. Don't ask me anything. I can't get up. You know, and sometimes we just think, "Okay, I'll leave the marriage." And. then sometimes, you know, it's really. What would be even the smallest thing. today that would connect you with your. aliveness, with your joy, with your.

freedom? Small. What would it be? Do you have a thought about what that. would be? Have you even thought about. that? I have I loved I loved to travel. I want. to travel the world. I love walking on. the beach. I went to go vacations in. Mexico, and I just loved walking on the. beach, just being with nature, just. getting out and we don't get to do that. that often. Okay, forget the we. Forget the we.

Yeah. Forget the we. You You know, you start, you have to go with a girlfriend, go. with somebody else, go with one of the. children if you don't, but it's not. Don't make it contingent. You see, you. you kind of when people. they carry as much as you do, the. fantasy is that one day everybody will. be set, everybody will be taken care of, and. then I can go do my walk on the beach. No. Not going to happen.

to go do your walk on the beach because. that's what's going to help you to. continue to make sure that everybody is. set, otherwise you're going to collapse. So, what do I wish for myself? What's. one thing I could do that would that I. would enjoy? You know, how do I give. myself pleasure? I can see you get that, Erica. I can see. you get that. So, let's start there. You know what happens? Once you start. this thing, it's irresistible. Mhm. Yes. Once you really claim and you don't feel. that guilty and you don't want to.

constantly look back to make sure. everybody's okay and you begin to ask. yourself, am I okay? Not in a selfish way because it's it's. amazing how the the biggest givers are. the ones who worry about being selfish. Yes, I can see that, Landed. Yes. Yes, it did. Thank you. Barbara was married for 20 years to a. man she describes as emotionally. abusive. Can you tell us briefly what. happened? Hi, Barb. Hello. Hello, Stedman and Oprah. It is an honor.

to. listen to you and be part of this. Um. So, yes, I I married for 20 years, two. beautiful boys. We met uh, actually in in law school and. I don't think I realized that I was in a. relationship that was about power and. control. Um, I I I didn't I didn't fully appreciate.

that, um, until things started going. not well, probably the second half of. our marriage, um, and and then in therapy learned. that I was very accustomed to. power and control dynamics. You are no longer with your husband. Right. Yeah. And um, if I understand. uh, what you're what you may be.

grappling with is um, it took me a while to see a lot of. things. Yes. I've I the relationship ended, uh, whatever the reasons that precipitated. it. Um, and so what often follows from a. relationship like this is questions of. trust. Yeah, there are betrayals and then one. wonders how will I trust again?

Is that is that part of what. Yes. Okay. Yes. It's it's, um, I'm I'm scared of about my ability to. know what I can trust. Right. Cuz I've always trusted my instincts and. my instincts have always served me well, but when this happens in a such a long. relationship, you do question.

what did I know, what didn't I know, and. what was how much of it was. me. there an affair? Yes. Yeah, okay. I I. I think that you you you're highlighting. something that is so so important. because. betrayal creates a question of trust. Can I trust people? But it also puts. into question, can I trust myself? Mhm. Yes. How do I trust that my perception of. reality is accurate when all these. things took place that I had no idea.

about that happened behind my back and I. thought I know what the hell is going on. and then I found out I was clueless. And um I think that. what happens when we start to meet new. people, sometimes we would like to know. that we can trust them before we start. But trust is by definition a leap of. faith. I mean trust is an active engagement. with the unknown. So. it's iterative. It's small little steps.

You learn to trust by. taking a risk and watching the response. Taking a risk and watching the response. But if it involves new dating. then I think one of the things that help. a lot with trust is that there's. something very weird that's happening. around dating these days that we are. dating totally away from our lives, secluded from our lives, you know, on an. app, in a in a dark bar. And then when. all of this trust has been established, so to speak, then we do the big reveal.

and we bring this person to our friends. and our family, which is strange because. the way you get to know a person is by. watching them in interaction with other. people. Mhm. So you're going to the kind that kind of. dating that is happening away from your. life may not be the best model for you. You bring that person into your life, into your interactions, your. friendships, and then you watch. And. then you let other people give you data. points. And. look, you've if your instincts have. served you well for a long time and you.

made a mistake with this person, then. the ratio is quite good. Quite good. That's heartening to hear and and I what. you say Esther is the dating apps are. just if it's not a fit for my. personality because I'm wired to be live. and in person. Right, yes. Do things with people. You will going to. go whatever bike, hike to a movie, listen to live music, invite that person. to join you, just hang and then you'll.

feel and then you'll you'll have a. better sense and you'll know even if you. want to see them another time and you'll. hear what other people say and it's much. more integrated into your life than in. this kind of sterile thing called, you. know, the dating space. Thank you, Barbara. Thank you. Thank you so much to both of you. Thank you. One of your most well-known quotes I. like so much is this one that the. quality of our relationships. determines the quality of our lives.

Yes. When did you know this to be true? I think I. completely grew up. with that. um perspective. because my parents, both of them, had. lost their entire families in the. Holocaust and they were both sole. survivors of their entire family. and really they had nothing. I have. nothing, nothing, nothing, nobody,

nothing and they created families of. choice before the word existed. They. understood the rebuilding of community. They understood that you get your memory. from meeting people who have experienced. something like you. When your entire. community is decimated, there's not a. trace left of the life that existed, you. need to share it through stories with. other people. And so in multiple. fashions they created rituals, gatherings. people. People was the way that you.

that you you you rebuild life more than. anything else and that wasn't spoken but. there were people in my house all the. time and I would hear the conversations. and I I understood that you do not. survive alone. They didn't survive alone. and they didn't revive and rebuild. alone. You need people. We need intimacy. and connection. to survive from the moment we are born. And that's part of why your question.

about modern loneliness is so powerful. because at this point we're not only. lonely, we are also experiencing. self-imposed solitude. You don't have to. leave your house to eat, to work, to. shop, to to exercise, to meet people. So. you're not just having remote work, you. have a complete form of remote living. And that disconnect affects how we feel. about life, why we wake up in the. morning, and our level of happiness, and. our level of joy and contentment. And.

all of these things are interconnected. So people. and the quality of your relationship, it's not just relationships, it have to. be nurturing, good, thriving. relationships, determines the quality of. your life. You know you've counseled so many. thousands of. people throughout the world and heard. their stories and challenges and. relationships. And I'm wondering what. you. have concluded. is the basis for a well-lived life.

A well-lived life is a is a life where. you are able to experience the two most. important sets of human needs. Our need. for safety and security and our need for. adventure. Mhm. Our need for togetherness and our need. for autonomy. The good life is the. ability to reconcile these two. fundamental sets of human needs. Inside of you and hopefully inside of. your relationships. Mhm.

A good lived life is a life that is. erotic. That means it's not only useful. and meaningful, but it is also alive. You know, everybody knows the difference. between a relationship that is not dead. and a relationship that is alive. Mhm. That difference is the erotic. And the. erotic means curiosity, imagination, playfulness, creativity, exploration, the embracing of. serendipity and the unknown. And you can. be in your 90s.

when you meet these people and they're. still curious. that you were giving to Christina and. Stefan, and to her particularly about. her own arousal and eroticism, was so. poignant because I think in for so many. people, they think eroticism is only. about sex. No, no, no, no, no, so not. So not. So not. So not. [laughter]. You know, that is the a life well lived. is a life where you feel alive.

That is why the importance of the erotic. is so essential. I love that. I love that you're able to. do that for people. I so appreciate that. you were able to come here to be a part. Pleasure. of the Oprah podcast. Esther Perel's. podcast is called Where Should We Begin? And Where Should We Begin? A Game of. Stories is available on her website, estherperel.com. So, thank you to my guests, all of you. for asking your thoughtful questions to. Erica and Jen and Christina and Stefan. and Barbara, thank you all. Go well,

everybody. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.