Oprah and Dr. Thema Bryant on How You Are Worthy of the Life You Want

Hello and thank you for listening to the. Oprah podcast. Hello [music] to you. watching on YouTube. We are diving into. today healing relationships with our. loved ones and the one that matters the. [music] most, our relationship with. ourselves. It's the ultimate. I want you. to welcome with me Dr. Thema Bryant. [music] Can we just speak a minute about. what betrayal does to the spirit? It's depleting. I'll tell you that much. You are not actually grieving the. relationship, you're grieving your idea.

of what you thought [music] the. relationship would be. That is so powerful. For too long we are made to believe that. we must say yes [music] to everything. and I want to tell you the holiness of. no. No is a sacred word. The holiness of no, I like that. I heard [laughter] that. Let the church. say amen. A graduate of Duke University, Dr. Thema. Bryant, who goes by Dr. Thema, is a. clinical psychologist, a professor of.

psychology at Pepperdine University, and. an ordained minister. Dr. Thema is the. author of three books and is the host of. the popular The Homecoming podcast, [music] which raises awareness about. mental health. Your latest book is called Matters of. the Heart, which. I was even so touched by the title. Matters of the Heart, Healing Your. Relationship With Yourself and Those You. Love. And let me say to all of you who. are watching or listening, this book is. a treasure. It's a treasure trove of.

wisdom for any phase of your life. And. we have you covered on this episode. Whatever you're going through, Dr. Thema. talks about how to set better. boundaries, forgiving without receiving. an apology. Yes. to say that again. Forgiving without. receiving an apology. Don't we all want. to know how to do that? Investing deeper. in your current relationships and. releasing those in your life who just. are not healthy for you to let them as.

Mel Robbins said. [laughter]. on our previous podcast to let them go. And you start the book with this. I love. this so much. I come to this work as. your facilitator, you say. Someone who. is experienced living with a full heart, living a busy life with a neglected. heart, going through the deep sea diving. of living with a broken heart and. tenderly and compassionately healing my.

heart. Why did you need to heal your own. heart? There were first of all, I want to say. thank you, Oprah, for having me. This is. so wonderful and something I have been. looking forward to. being able to share this work with the. public because many of us are walking. around with broken hearts. And I like to. say my understanding of healing my heart. is not just from doctoral studies or. reading books, but having lived it so to. know firsthand that it's possible to.

heal our hearts. The first way I would say my heart was. broken is something I know you can. relate to, the realities of racism and. sexism that cause us to not see our own. beauty. And so to be brokenhearted. as a chocolate girl in Baltimore to not. be able to see the full glory of who I. am. And so I had to heal my sense of. myself because of all of the messages. that bombard us very early to say that.

we're not enough. And then moving. further along while I was in high. school, my father was elected to be a. bishop in the AME Church. We moved to. Can I just stop everybody right now cuz. [clears throat] I have known you since. you were a little girl. That's right. Because Bethel AME Church y'all in. Baltimore was the center of our not just. the city. but the spiritual culture. Yes. for the city. That's right. I first moved from my father's house in.

Nashville and moved to Baltimore, the. first thing he said to me was find. yourself a church home and Bethel became. my church home and I used to sit in I. used to come to 8:00 service. That's right. because you couldn't get in 11:00. service. I used to drive all the way. from Columbia, Maryland and I would be. mesmerized by your father and your. mother. Yes. And your mother. Yes. Yes. you so much and I was just an itty. bitty. I was a little bitty. That's why like 7, 8 years old seeing you and we would see.

you on the news. Yes. and then see you at church which is such. a great example for us to know what's. possible. Wow. That this reflection. is more than attainable. Did I ever tell you this that I became a. tither at Bethel? Oh. It became my stabilizing force being a. 22-year-old girl moving to a city and. not knowing anybody. That was not just. my church home, it became my home, my. community, my people. It was It was.

everything for me. It It is everything. Community is so. important for us healing and so. that was a part of talk about like the. broken heart. When I was a college student at Duke. University, I came home to Baltimore for. a visit and a member of our church. sexually assaulted me. You talk about. heartbreak. Yes. Heartbreak. I It is that break of trust. when you think you're safe in someone's. presence. Absolutely. or we assume, you know, if you're in a.

faith community, everyone is going to be. caring and loving and so that was like a. disruption. I'll say before that I was a. straight-A student and for the first. time like I couldn't focus, I couldn't. concentrate, I had to go speak a dean. and there was one black dean at Duke. University who had the same last name, Dean Bryant, and I just came to her in. all of my despair and had to heal my. heart.

So, that this has been a long journey up. until this year, this past year, the passing of my. mother. I know. Right? Which is another heartbreak, but. I love what you shared in a prior. episode of they never leave us and I. definitely feel her presence today, every day when I'm dead. it even it's different. It's different, but it's there and it's real. there. Yeah, so that feels good. In chapter one of Matters of the Heart,

you reinforce for us the importance of. self-compassion and you define it this. way, "To be compassionate towards. yourself means. I love this. You've created space. for the fullness of your complex. identity. Mhm. and your complicated life, including. your fractured heart.". "The aim is to be able to look at. yourself with honesty and appreciation.". And reason why I it stopped me in my. tracks because I thought, "Wow, so many.

people are walking around with fractured. hearts.". Yes. Yes. We have so many layers and. parts of ourselves that we discard or. that we hide because we desire to be. acceptable. Yes. So, it's like what part of me did I tuck. away in order for other people to give. validation or approval? Yes. And so, gathering those broken pieces so. I can be wholly me. And the essence of Matters of the Heart, may I share with you all, is that you.

got to take care of yourself first. You. got to practice compassion for yourself. first before you can begin to give it to. other people. And what is the best way. for people to practice self-compassion, Dr. Thema. Yeah. A big part of it is. self-acceptance. and recognizing you can feel more than. one thing at the same time and you can. be more than one thing at the same time. Sometimes we don't give ourselves grace. because we have this idea of perfection.

that doesn't leave room for our. humanity. So, I can have compassion on myself. I. say if you look far enough back at your. story, your dips and dives and falls make. sense. Sometimes we don't look at ourselves in. context. So, we're like, "Why did I do. that? Or I'm so stupid. Or what's wrong. with me?" But if you tell me the. fullness of your story, where you landed. made sense. And then you talk about this.

overextending yourself result in. depletion. I mean, we have seen that. over and over and over again, particularly in our community where. women have given and given and given and. there is nothing left and then don't. understand why they are depleted, but. you're saying that is the absolute. counter opposite of having. self-compassion. But how do you This is. the thing. I was reading and I was. thinking about all the people who were. saying, "Easy for you to say, Oprah. Easy for you to say, Dr. Thema. Give.

yourself self-compassion when you are. the number one breadwinner, when you are. the one taking care of everybody and. there's nobody there to take care of. you. Where is there room for. self-compassion?". Right. What I say to that is your. current way of living is unsustainable. And so, we self-destruct. And even when. we say, "I don't have time to heal.". Even we'll say, "I'm too busy to be. depressed.". Well, depression will catch you no. matter how busy you are. And so, what it. becomes is it's necessary for us to.

train our eyes to see the ways that it's. showing up. So, it might not look like. So, for example, with black women, sometimes our despair shows up as. irritability. So, then people say, "You have a bad. attitude." No, she's in despair. But, if I am. uh harsh, if I am hard working, if I'm a. workaholic, if I'm a perfectionist, if. I'm busy all the time, other people will. celebrate that, but I'm empty on the. inside. Mhm. So, it becomes not valuing myself cuz.

everybody else is saying good job, but. when I lay myself down at night, then. what do I say and what do I feel? And I. choose to pour into myself so that it. can actually be well. So, what should you be pouring? Should. you be pouring prayers? Should you be. pouring preparing, you know, pouring in. silence? Should What What should you be. pouring in? Yeah. So, there are. Cuz I think so many and we're speaking. to all of you who are just overwhelmed.

You're overwhelmed and depleted. Yes. Yes. So, one of the things that we. pour in is rest and stillness, and many. of us don't know how to be still. Mhm. And we will say to ourselves, "I don't. have time to be still.". have time. Right? I have to do a million things. And the reality is uh that if we don't. stop ourselves, our bodies or minds will. stop us. And that's what we see happen. time and time again.

illness. Yes. So, we get sick and we know, you. know, one of the things that research. shows is the way our autoimmune. disorders and systems for women, when we. suppress our anger, we suppress our. feeling, we neglect ourselves, and it. shows up in the body. And so, then now. you have to be still. Now you have to be still. know. I heard another scientist say, yeah, that the sickness often is your. body's way of saying, "Time out. I'm. done. I I I I've done I don't have any. else anything else to give." Yes.

And then it shows up in our minds and. our mental health. Yeah. So you mentioned prayer and our. spiritual practice is important. And it. has to come from an authentic place. Right. Sometimes we're doing public relations. in our prayers, like these and vows and. we want it to sound holy. Uh but in order for it to be effective, it has to be honest. Yeah. Right? And so for us to be true in our. prayers and I'm going to say even for. meditation. And some people say, "Oh, I.

don't know if meditation is against my. religion." Being still? Being still and silent is against your. religion? So for us to tune into our. breath and into our bodies and then our. food affects our mood. And so what do I. nourish myself? What do And I like to. say, "I'm eating this cuz I love. myself.". Yes, yes, yes. I'm eating this cuz I want to live, right? Mhm. Uh and so then feeding myself loving. relationships.

I I think one of the things that I. uh really appreciated about Matters of. the Heart is that it's not like flipping. a switch and all of a sudden you're. going to do everything. It's about. taking small steps. That's right. to see yourself differently so that you. can then actually know and acknowledge. what it is you need to begin to take. care of yourself cuz I think so many. people. haven't even asked themselves the. question. Right, you know, of what they actually. need and I want to also say for us to.

have compassion means when I get it. wrong or when I fall off the track, I. don't say, "Well, now it doesn't. matter." Like everything is ruined. It's. I start again. I begin again. I'm so happy that there's so many people. here who are interested in the healing. process because we heard a lot of people. who are in need of improving themselves, some who are joining us on Zoom today. Avery is one of those people. Avery, I. hear you're 27. You recently moved to.

Colorado for a fresh start after. experiencing a betrayal, the kind you. know, we keep hearing about more and. more about. Betrayal leaves you. devastated, doesn't it Dr. Tamer? Can we. just Can we just speak a minute about. what betrayal does to the spirit? Yes, it's depleting. I'll tell you that. much. Um, but hi, thank you for having. me. Uh, lovely to see you both. Um, yes, I just moved back to Denver. I'm originally from Colorado, um, after a pretty depleting heart.

heartache, uh, and it was about 2 years. ago on the dot. So, I'd say we're we're. on the up and up for sure. You're on the up and up. Okay, what did. you want to ask Dr. Tamer? So, I guess my biggest thing is after. you go through a heartache, um, you. know, I lived with my ex. We were buying. a house together and we were together. for 3 years and when I found out that he. basically had a whole other girlfriend. Um, And how did you find out? Was it through.

a phone? Uh, it was through video game messages. and then phone and then Instagram. Phones have revealed a lot in this in. this world. A lot of people got messed. up with the phones. Go ahead. Yes, the phones the phones are. destroying a lot of relationships, but. anyway, um, yeah, and so I guess after that. happened, my biggest thing is I really. gained this, um, avoidant attachment. style where, you know, nice people would. come into my life and I would, you know, brush them away or break up with them.

too soon to even give them a chance all. because, you know, if I. uh, do the breaking up with, um, then I. can't get hurt kind of thing. Right, yeah. And I guess it's, you know, I I think there's plenty of women in the. world that struggle with this after. heartache where you would rather just be. alone than ever go through that feeling. again and I I think that's something to. try to work through. Yeah. Thank you so much for your. transparency and for sharing your. heartbreak. The first thing I want to. say to you is you are not actually.

grieving the relationship. You're. grieving your idea of what you thought. the relationship would be. Because in reality, he was not who you. thought he was. And so the relationship. is not actually one that was mutually. nourishing, mutually respectful, mutually edifying. And so it makes sense. helps? Right? That it's not actually you miss. them, it's you miss your idea of who you. thought they were. Right?

Yeah. And then, you know, when we talk about. the aftermath, sometimes we create a. story about why it happened because we. want things to make sense. And so in your story creation of why it. happened, you may be looking at yourself. or blaming yourself or shaming yourself. when the truth of it really may have. nothing to do with you. It may be that. he had or he or she had access. It may. be just for fun. It may be that they.

were socialized to never be faithful and. have not been faithful their whole. lives. And so sometimes we try to it's. an illusion of control. If I figure out. what I did wrong and I do it different. this time, I'll be safe. And so I invite you to release yourself. from the lie that you could have made it. be different. Yeah. The person who could have made it be. different is the other person, right? That is so powerful.

Yeah. And it was I could see. that hit you and you landed. is is that you realize in that moment. that Dr. Thema was talking that you are. grieving the idea that you had of him. because who he really was, who he really. is, is the guy who betrayed you. Right. Yeah, and you know, when you're. working through those feelings, so you. can go to therapy every single day, but. you're still like, "What could I have. done differently? Like, why did this.

happen?". one thing. That's right. We desire Yeah, we desire the control. And let me say, the part of you that was. immediately like, I don't want. relationships again, is actually a. healthy part. It's good to be still. after a break up. Sometimes people jump. right out there and they go pick a a new. person, different name, different face, same personality, same cycle. Yeah. So, it's an indication. of healthiness to pause, and then it's. an indication that you've started.

healing when a part of you now desires. relationship again. Right? Because. before you didn't want it. Now you're. like, "Mhm, maybe it would be nice." So, that's your heart starting to open back. up again. And to not sabotage it, I know when you. talk about running, especially if you. are. feel moved by them because it doesn't. feel safe, but while part of our healing. happens individually, like by ourselves,

and a part of it happens in therapy, a. part of your heart's healing will only. take place actually in healthy loving. relationship. That's when you will really grasp uh. some some of the triggers, to learn how. to show up and not run. It's going to. happen in that process. And so, giving. yourself the patience and permission to. try again, to not let the ex rob you of. the realities of love.

Right. No, that's so powerful. Thank you. for saying that. I I agree with that. where it it brings out the triggers in. me when I am talking to someone that's. very healthy. And so, it's just healing. healing your heart and working through. that together if they're willing to or. doing the work on your own. So, I. appreciate that. Avery, the fact that he cheated on you. with those eyes that match your sweater. [laughter]. I I don't even know what to say. I don't. even know what to say. on you that that really makes my heart.

melt. I want to say, "Bye, boy. Boy, [laughter] bye.". Okay? That is the truth. Thank you so much, Avery. Thank you. Thank you. Have a great rest of your. day. I love I love the fact that you say in. matters of the heart that you have a. whole chapter, actually, that. experiencing infidelity, which, you. know, Avery's been going through and. grieving this past 2 years, is really a. form of loss. and grief. Yeah. and trauma. It's not just infidelity. It.

is a major thing to be betrayed. And a part of our healing community is. so important. And so, that's one of the. things I love about you and Gail sharing. her journey of what a difference it made. for you to show up as sister, as both. truth-teller, but also with that. compassion, because when we're in those. moments, we need to be reminded who we. are and reminded of our worth. And so, what better people to do that than. people who genuinely care about you?

Absolutely. You need somebody there to. tell you the truth. That's right. Yes. So, that you don't end up with the lie. of I'm worthy, I'm not attractive. enough, I'm not interesting enough. All. of All of the lies of not enoughness. And the level of betrayal sometimes is. so, you know, profound that you're just. like, "Girl, please.". Yes. Yes. Yes. So, it can disrupt your life of how you. thought your life was going to be. You. know, you imagined a future with this. person and felt secure in that. And so,

a part of it is what you. think about not only in terms of the. other person, but your picture of. yourself. And so, one of the things I. like to shift for people is not thinking. about the ending of all relationships as. a failure. Some people are like, "Oh, it failed.". Sometimes leaving a relationship is a. success. Yeah, that's that's your triumph. Yes. Yes. And I really, really, really it. resonated with me, and I'm sure a lot of. you, too, listening to us, what you said.

to Avery about you are grieving the man. you wanted him to be. Yes, absolutely. And sometimes we fall. for potential. Yeah. Of like, "If only this, if only that, if. if only these five things, you would be. my dream person." And so, we have to. look at the truth of who this person is, and do I really want the truth of that? And I think for Avery and for anybody. else who's going through this that to. get the truth of it helps the healing it.

does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's going to come through it and going. to be stronger and better. That's right. shows up next. So, Stevie is joining us. Stevie's a wife and mother to a toddler. Hi, Stevie. Hi, Stevie. You you I hear I heard that you wanted. to deepen female relationships in your. life. What's going on with you? Yes. So, friendships are a little. challenging for me right now. I'm in my. 30s. I'm surrounded by a lot of. community and a lot of people, but I.

really am more focused on quality of. friendships and quantity. I'm hoping. that I can have more valuable intimate. relationships and friendships at this. stage in my life. Um I'm a wife and a. mom now, but things kind of feel high. stakes for me in my life, and I'm a bit. of a perfectionist, so that can kind of be debilitating for. me at times with new friendships because. I am afraid I'm not going to show up for. them the way that they need, or I'm. going to at them.

So, that's been a bit of a a stumbling. block. And, you know, growing up, I saw. so many black friendships on television, black women who would kicky together and. have a good time, and then cry on each. other's shoulders. And. I don't really feel like I have a. working framework for that in real life. What that looks like to be to fall. apart, to be vulnerable, to be there in. those challenging times. I'm kind of.

listening to you, too, Dr. Thema. My mother passed when I was 16. So, some. of those formative moments weren't. there. So, I never got to see that in. person. Um so, yeah, I think that's. where I am right now. Do you have a. question? Yeah, my question is kind of how do I. reconcile with this when I want to. nurture the friendships and show up for. my friends that I currently have and. meeting new people at this stage of my. life. Yes, thank you for the question. And the. first thing I want to speak to is the.

younger version of you. And that part of you who has been. disappointed. The part of you that was not chosen. The. part of you that was not embraced. The. part of you that has never been. sistered. The part of you that misses. being mothered. The part of you that. feels you have to be perfect and that. people will abandon you or leave you or. reject you if you are not perfect. And I. want to say to you that that is a lie.

That you are worthy of friendship. That. you are worthy of sisterhood. And that. real sisters do not require your. perfection. And they will meet you where. you are. And so, instead of hiding or being. afraid to consider what it will mean to. be known, to be seen, to be heard, to be. validated, to be celebrated, to be. appreciated, there are women in your. city waiting to sister you. There are.

women in your city waiting to sister you. authentically. And so what happens is. our anxiety causes us to isolate and to. hide and to block our blessing. And so. you affirm to yourself, I will not block. the love of a sister that is trying to. find me. And I will not have to be. perfect for them. You know, with strangers we have to do. public relations. How are you? I'm fine. How are you? I'm blessed. I'm better.

than blessed. But with my sisters, as. you said, I can unfold and say, you know. what? I'm tired. You know what? I'm. confused. You know what? I'm fed up. And. so that is what your soul desires. So. I'm so glad by you questioning it, it. means you're ready. It means you're. ready to stop fighting it, ready to stop. running from it, you're ready to receive. it. And so this is your season for that. Wow, preach this evening.

Whoa. The fact that she is questioning it and. just it's just like you said to Avery. before, the fact that you're now. thinking about, now maybe. [clears throat] I'm ready to be. interested in somebody else. Means the. healing has taken place. So the fact. that you are in this space isn't that a. wow aha for you? The fact that you're in. the space of asking the question means. that you are spiritually, emotionally, psychologically getting yourself ready. for this season that is yours to come.

And I want you to know transparency is. contagious. So if you meet people and. stay very surface about brunch or about. shopping, that's where it will stay. But. as soon as you deepen it, there are. people who will meet you there at the. level of your depth. And then they'll. say, me too. Me too. So be open to it, but then as you're connecting with. people, let them actually meet you, not. a performance.

Wow. Thank you. You are so welcome. I'm excited about. seeing you and your girlfriends. Yeah. [laughter]. I'm really excited for you. I'm excited. for you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Stevie. I can see I can see that that. message from Dr. Thema just blessed you. right now and all of us who are able to. witness it feel the blessing. Yes, thank you so much. It really does. Yeah. Go with it. Go with it. Thank you, Stevie. Thank you.

We have. You did that thing right there. That was. That was so excellent. Thank you. We. have Natasha joining us from Chicago. Hey. Welcome. I hear Hi. How's Chicago? Where. are you? So, I'm in a South suburb of Chicago, Homewood-Flossmoor, near Orland Park. Okay. I. I know where that is and I hear after 15. years of nursing and caring for others. that you have now come to a revelation. about yourself and the matters of your.

heart. Tell us what that is. What. happened? Yeah. Yeah, so thank you, Oprah and Dr. Thema. for having me here today and this and. really this platform, this podcast. So, I'm on an emotional healing journey with. myself. Um I became a teen mom at the age of 16. And while my daughter Caitlyn was an. absolute blessing, um I she literally. saved my life because I was on a bad. path as a teenager. Um. but I, you know, struggled with kind of.

my sense my sense of self-worth and. trying to prove myself. You know, kind of trying to beat that. stigma or, you know, that being another. statistic in terms of a teen mom. So, I really just like pushed myself. into my nursing career, you know, working full-time, going to school, and. then going all the way to the end. I got. my terminal degree, my doctorate in. nursing, which I'm extremely proud of. But in that process, I neglected the. people that matter the most, which was. my family. And I remember this aha moment, as you.

say Oprah, where. husband Dale, who's an amazing man, and. we speak to each other from a place of. love and honesty, he said to me, "I feel like you treat. your patients better than you treat your. family.". And it was in that moment that I was. like, "Oh my god, I am pouring so much. in to others and service, that by the. time I come home, I'm empty. And I am. not showing up as my best self to the. people that matter the most.".

And so, it was really hard, but I. decided that I would make a career shift. so that I could give to these. non-professional aspects of my life. Um and then but then I found myself in. another predicament. I was in this like. identity crisis. You know, for 15 plus. years I've been a nurse. I've been a. nurse practitioner. But now that I'm not in that role, I'm. not directly doing that, it was kind of. like, "Who am I? You know, who is. Nastasha?". Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for. speaking this truth. And for many of us, achievement is. easier than relationship. So even though you worked hard to get. your doctorate, that was actually easier. than showing up in that personal space. It's very by the book. Like, I memorize. the terms, I apply the terms. Yeah. And you did so interesting you. saying that, cuz I noticed this with a. lot of my daughter girls who come to.

school from South Africa to go to. college here, where achievement becomes. the thing. Achievement becomes their. identity. Achievement I I I I I I had. one of my daughter girls who's now a. doctor at U Penn but went to Spelman, graduated summa laude, got one B and. fell apart over one B because the. identity was I'm a straight A student. Cuz I said, "It's a B.". And she goes, "But I was straight. That's my worth. That means I'm good.

That's right. And so what I have found. with a number of my girls is that. because so much emphasis has been put on. the academics and achieving and being. success and you're the first in your. family and all of that, they're not as. good with the relationships. because all the energy goes into making. yourself the successful person, you. know. And I wonder. what is the lie that you were told or.

that you believed about teen mothers? Yeah, I just remember you know, going to. pick up my daughter, right? And they'd. be like, "Where's Where's Caitlyn's mom. at?" You know, and I'd be like, "I'm. here." They're like, "No, no, no. No, where's Caitlyn's mom?" And I'm like, "It's me. I'm here.". And it was just like I guess not being. seen. Yes. Or not even being, you know, thought of. that this is the person that is raising. this wonderful human being and like. doing everything in her power, working. two jobs, going to school, staying up.

late at night um just to provide a. better life for her. Yeah. Um. So I think that's where it felt like I. tried to I grew. So. I'm worthy enough to be there. That invisibility. and I'm going to say the relationship. that led to the teen pregnancy. let's just pause there. Mhm. So that relationship and then people's. response to you of not seeing you as. a capable mother, just ruling you out,

eliminating you because of your age that. you have been chasing enoughness since. then. And that's been many, many years. And so. now what has happened is healing and. ease feel uncomfortable to you. That's why you think you're bored. That's what ease feels like. It's not. boring. It's not boring. Ooh, aha, aha. High five yourself. [laughter]. Yeah. I know that hit a nerve right.

there. Oh. When you were talking about being still. and pausing, I have had the hardest time. being still and pausing. And you would. think that'd be easy, right? I'm going. to leave my career that's so demanding. I'm going to switch gears. I'm going to. be home more. And I can't be still. Yeah. Yeah. Because everything you've. been running from all these years shows. up in the stillness. Shows up in the silence. So you stay. busy, we stay distracted, and we think.

that's whole, right? We think we're. healed, but you're just distracted and. busy. And so now you get to be the nurse. to yourself. Yeah? And retrain your nervous system. Cuz your nervous system doesn't know how. to be settled. And so as you learn to settle, then. you'll be able to show up for yourself. and for your loved ones. And you are. capable and deserving of that. It's just. different. So the same way you would be.

patient with a new nurse. is how we have to be patient with. ourselves cuz this thing is new, but. it's doable. And you and your family. deserve that. Wow. I Thank you. I um You know, the. question was how do I start to rebuild. myself? And I feel like now I think you you've. given me like the tools or the the. foundation start like getting to know. Natasha. Start loving myself. I I think. And kindness. I think she what what happened here was.

an opportunity to see yourself from the. point of view of what's really been. happening with yourself. I I really. appreciate it when you said, "You're not. bored, you're just not used to ease.". Yes. And and and and you think being still. means I'm bored cuz because I have to. prove I have to prove I have to do I. have to show I have to you know. Yes. So getting to know yourself. Right? And. and that. this is for the first time in your life.

that you get to actually discover you. and it's not too late. When I talk about. returning back to ourselves or healing. ourselves, sometimes it's healing myself. for the first time. So you're actually. not trying to go back to a former self. You've never been this woman that you. are creating now, but you get to build. her. How beautiful. glad this is on tape because you're. getting so many ah-has so quickly that. you're not even going to remember. everything you said. I can see you're. like, "Okay, what did she just say? What.

did she Okay, yeah." It's It's all on. tape so you don't have to write it down, but I can see that it's hitting you like. you're like, "Huh? Huh? Huh?". I We We got as I said, we got you here. and we got you we got you. I I feel it and I don't know if it's. because I'm turning 40 and I'm you know. this big number is coming, but I just. feel like it's it's just something I. just. I have to deal with and it it's hitting. me fast and but I feel like you are just.

speaking to everything that I've been. thinking but I guess scared. to. come to terms with it and I feel like. the big word is I'm scared. This is a. scary space. And. it's okay to be afraid. It's okay to not. have all the answers. I want to just. invite you to do a fill in the blank so. you're going to say, "I release blank so. I can receive blank.

I um. I release. this pressure. to be perfect. So, I can be. worthy and acceptance of myself and love. myself. Mhm. Well, I want to say you already are. worthy. You already are worthy. Already. But, that you can you can be. open to accept your worthiness. Yes. That's what you want. Yeah.

Receive the truth of it. You want to be open to accept your. worthiness cuz you have refused to see. your value and your worthiness. And all of this happened in one Zoom. call. This is an amazing [laughter]. thing. This is what happened to you. today, Nastasha. Thank you so much. Beautiful. Thank you for having me. This. has been fantastic. Thank you so much. you. Lots to think about. Thank you. Thank. you. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, I think that I think the reason.

why it's so interesting talking to. Nastasha is that she represents so many. people in the world. Correct? That's so true. Yes. And that's how often we're trained. to like chase significance. Like, if I. do enough things, I can outlast the. statistics, I can outlast people's. assumptions, I can outlast my own fears. Like, we're trying to outrun ourselves. Yes. And so, having to actually slow down so. I can be whole instead of chasing. wholeness. I think that's also so important.

the question that you asked her, "What. is the story that you told yourself. about being a teen mother?" Cuz she's. still carrying that and still trying to. prove to those women who were in the. room when she was picking up her child, "I'm good enough, I'm worthy enough, I'm. valuable valuable enough.". All of that. And so, then your armor becomes like. your resume, right? You got the degrees, you got the position. And so now you're. saying if I lay down my armor, like how will I know I'm enough, right?

How will I know I'm worthy if you like. strip these titles from me, you know? It's like the first time I moved when I. first moved to Los Angeles, I moved here. without a position. And before that I. had been like, oh, Duke University, Harvard Medical Center, Princeton. University, all these And so then I came. here and it's like, so who are you. without all of that? You're enough. Was it hard for you to accept that about. yourself? So at first when I came here, I was. urgently urgently on this job hunt. And.

I always say to people, uh if I knew then what I know now, I. would have enjoyed the break. [laughter]. Cuz I was like, just slow down and enjoy. it, you know? You're You're going to. find it. So that was hard cuz it was the. first time in my life where I didn't. have an affiliation, an institution. And. so then, okay, without that, just who. are you? And so having to come to terms with. that. Yes. Yeah.

That's what she's dealing with. That's right. Well, Portia's joining us. She's one of. nine children, and I hear. you shoulder the burden of being the. most successful member of your family. Tell us what's going on. Thank you so much. Um it's true. I am. the eldest of nine, um and we were. abandoned by our mother, so I have. filled in that role as a mother to my. siblings. My grandmother raised us, but. she worked the entire time, so. the relationship I have with my siblings. is more of one of a mother-child. And um.

now that I have my own child, I find. myself feeling. obligated It's this what I'm trying to. avoid is I always feel obligated to. assist them in a lot of their issues. that they're dealing with. And recently. I wasn't able to show up for one of my. closest siblings, my little sister, who. she's like my daughter, and I just. wasn't able to show up for her. And the. treatment that I got from her kind of. just left me shocked and kind of. heartbroken. saying little sister, how old?

I'm 41, she's 35. Okay, so we're not talking about little. kids here. Mhm. Very important. Okay, very important. Well, I Yeah, we're not talking about. little We're talking about grown women. with their own children. I wanted to establish that, yes. She's a grown woman, and I had a role, you know, all of my mother's children. have lived with me, and it's like but. now it's like everybody's already had. their chances. Everybody's got to stand. up. So, I told her no, and um we're. she just kind of stopped talking to me, and it just devastated me and made me. angry, and I'm never angry with them.

So, I know I need to check myself and. however I'm showing up for them because. there's some kind of dis- There's the. balance is not right. So, my question. for Dr. Thema is how do I. balance my relationship with my siblings. where I show up as a sibling and not as. like a savior or I feel obligated to my. family so often, and I don't want to. feel that way because it makes me. retreat sometimes. It's like I don't. want to be. Yes, and angry, and I don't want to have.

that because I love them so much, but I. also need to because it's showing up in. my intimate relationships as well. So, my question is I need some balance, and. I need to stop feeling obligated. I. don't know why I feel that way. You feel that way because there was not. someone to fill in the gap, and you. filled in the gap, but you get to resign. from being the mother sister. You resign. You turn in your. resignation, and now you will be solely. the sister. And when we change and when.

we heal, some people don't like it. When people have been depending on you, they will not appreciate the boundaries. They will not appreciate the no, but it. is not for their benefit or for yours. for you to continue to carry people who. it's time that they learn the strength. of their own legs and the strength of. their own wings. Nothing you do will be. enough for people who see you as their.

resource and don't see you as their. sister. So you decide. Stop right there. Stop right there. That nothing will ever be enough if they. see you as their resource. Because it will it will always be what. else you got? What else you got? What. else can you do? What else you got? And. that's what you're feeling and that's. what you're resentful and angry about.

But. your your past relationships with them. has set this has set this expectation. And so what Dr. I'm speaking from. experience. I'm a member of this choir, okay? And so. you have got to establish that those. days are gone. Yes, this is what I used. to do and now this is what I'm willing. to do. It is a decision on your part. And people are going to be mad. You're. not going to get through it without.

somebody being mad. But you're doing this to save yourself. and ultimately to save the relationships. that are meant to last. What what you all could actually be. So. you get to redefine it. Now I will do. some predictions for you. When you step. back, some people will step up. Some people who always said, "Well, she'll handle it. She'll pay for it. She'll do it." Some people will step up. and then some things actually won't get. done and you let it fall to the ground.

Some people are so dependent on you that. when you say, "I'm not doing it. anymore." some stuff will drop and. that's okay. You got to let it drop. Yeah. Yeah, I do. And I and the obligation feeling is. because I know that I'm blessed to be a. blessing. Yes. I understand. Yeah. And I have taken myself into another. area and I have a home where I also. provide 24-hour care for young girls who. grew up like myself. And that's where my.

energy is now because those are people. who do not have families and things of. that nature. But I it's the sense of obligation that. I I really want to work on because if I. show up in my family and if something's. not there, I just feel like I need to. fix it. Well, I I you know what? I suffered from. this for so long. I literally have. journals filled with the question of. what do I owe? What do I owe? And when. is it enough? Yeah. What do I owe and when is it enough? And.

can you help her answer that question? Yes, absolutely. So, Juan, you talked. about blessed to be a blessing, which is. beautiful and I want to ask, are you a. person of faith? I am. Okay. I want to say to you that God or. your creator did not make you just to be. an instrument for other people's relief. You are not just a vehicle for other. people and I know we like to talk about. God use me up. God says I'm not a user.

I'm not here to use you just to bless. others. It's actually to flow into you so you. can give from your overflow. When you are nourished, then it won't. drain you or empty you to share with. those girls in the home that you share. with. But for too long we are made to believe. that we must say yes to everything and. if that's the Christian thing to do. And I want to tell you and Oprah on.

today. Yes. the holiness of no. No is a sacred word. It is a sacred. word. And so you are a temple. go? [laughter]. Yeah. I heard that. Let the church say amen. amen. Amen. The holiness of no. I like that. The holiness [laughter]. of no. Yes. The holiness of no. Because we're made to feel guilty for.

our no. We're made to feel guilty that. like you have to say yes to everyone and. everything to be sufficient, to be a. good person. That's what you said, how. much is enough? Or how do I have to I. have to keep proving I'm a good person. And so now, you know, you get to say yes. to yourself. You get to say yes to your. relationships. You get to say yes to the. the young children, the girls you have. taken in. Uh but it starts with the. nourishment of your own soul. So I want.

to invite you to start doing morning. rituals where you feed your spirit. before you start the day so that you do. not go through the day running on empty. Feed you first. Does this make some sense to you today? It's It's in alignment with where I my. heart's been. So I'm really grateful. And I feel blessed. Yeah, beautiful. Do you believe you have the courage now, the the courage for the holiness of no?

I know it. Yes, I know. I'm taking the. little steps and hearing it from. of course Oprah, my fairy godmother. Of. course it just makes both sense. Uh thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you Porsche. So you write about the co-creating joy. You say it's an inside job. for an individual and a collective job. for relationships.

Co-create joy with the people you love. That's right. We have to be intentional. so that we don't take relationships for. granted or take people for granted. Sometimes we're like, "Oh, I know those. are my folks." But we turn to that more. when we're in crisis or in need or we. neglect the relationship because we. figure they'll always be there. So we. have to be intentional about engaging. and creating moments and memories with. each other that are joy-filled.

Have to do that on purpose and protect. time for it. Well, this is the thing. You're a. therapist. You're a professor. You're a minister cuz you have preached. here today. Yeah. How do you describe a life well-lived, a. well-lived existence? And what are the guideposts? What does a. meaningful life look like? When you're operating from matters of. the heart. Yeah. Yes. So for matters of the heart, I have.

to connect it to my first book which is. homecoming because living for me a. well-nourished life is being at home. with yourself. Being rooted and grounded from the truth. of you. And my dear friend and colleague. Dr. Shelly Harrell describes it as. soulfulness. That if I live from a soulful authentic. place, then I am fully alive and being. fully alive and showing up means that I. have love for myself. That I have love.

for other people. That I let that guide. the ways in which I show up. And I also. there is fruit to my soulfulness. When I am living from an authentic. place, there is impact in the world. around me. And so where's your fruit? Right? If I'm living rooted and grounded. in the truth of who I am, and that fruit. is not a fruit that drains me or.

depletes me, when I'm living my path, that actually renews me and restores me. And so, that's the gift of it for me. And my fruitfulness and my soulful. living won't look like somebody else's. It's like I meet some people and they. say, "Oh my goodness, you're a trauma. survivor and a trauma psychologist? That. must be so draining." And I say, "No, this work leaves me in awe." Like I'm. inspired to be able to walk with people. through that like healing process. But.

for somebody else, it would be draining. Some people who work in a corporate. space, they get fed by it cuz they're. called to it. Other people are like, "Mm, I couldn't do that work, right?". When you talk about doing like all these. interviews, for some people that that. sounds like, "Oh my gosh, you have to. talk to people all day?" And you're. like, "That's That's my life That's my. soulful. Energizing, stimulating for me. Yeah. Yes. Yes. So, live from a soulful, authentic, true place. and in a way that it is regenerative,

right? That you are fed even as you. pour. Oof. Mm. I'm going to end on that. You are fed. even as you pour. Yes. Thank you, Dr. Thema Bryant for what. feels like sacred wisdom. Well, you come. at it naturally. [laughter]. Okay. And I thank you to all of my. guests today, Natasha and Stevie and. Avery and Porsche. Um, I so appreciate each of you bringing. your whole heart to the conversation.

about matters of the heart. Dr. Thema's. book is called Matters of the Heart, Healing Your Relationship With Yourself. and Those You Love, and it's available. anywhere you buy books. And Dr. Thema. reads the audio version herself. Yes. So, it's like having a ongoing podcast. with you. [laughter]. And those of you who want to subscribe. to the Oprah podcast on YouTube and. follow us on Spotify, Apple podcast, or. wherever you get your podcast, and don't. miss a week. Go well, everybody. Thank. you. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Oh, I'm so. [laughter]. have to. Have to preach it. Yes. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.