Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial

[Music]. Thank you all for joining me on the. Oprah podcast for this special episode. Before we start, it's important for. those of you listening or watching to. know that this conversation is around. sexual assault and it may be very. challenging to hear. And most. importantly, this is absolutely not an. appropriate conversation for young. children. So today I'm speaking with. Carolene Darion who traveled here to.

California from her home just outside of. Paris and this is her first American. interview in 2020. 67year-old Dominique. Pelico reportedly a devoted grandfather, father and husband was arrested near. where he lived in the south of France. He was caught filming up women's skirts. at a supermarket. He was released while. awaiting charges. Police seized. Dominique's two phones, a camera, and a.

video recorder, plus several other. devices from the home he shared with. Giselle, his wife of nearly 50 years. Dominique Pelico confessed to his wife, Jiselle, about that supermarket. incident, but nothing could prepare her. for what was to come. Jiselle and. Dominique were then summoned to the. local police station. She assumed to. discuss her husband's case. Instead, police privately informed Jazelle that. for nearly a decade, her husband had. been recording her on his devices and.

drugging and raping her. During that. time, Dominique had also invited more. than 70 local men, strangers he. recruited from chat rooms on the. internet to rape his wife as she lay. unconscious. He stood by and filmed it. all. In total, police discovered more. than 20,000 photos and videos on. Dominique's devices in a folder labeled. abuse. After Jazelle met with police, she called her three grown children, Carolene, David, and Florian, to tell.

them the shocking truth about the father. they thought they knew. Carolene. courageously shares her family's. unimaginable ordeal in her gripping. memoir, I'll Never Call Him Dad, Again. So, welcome Carolene. Thank you for. having me here today. You traveled 24. hours to get here to do this interview. So, I deeply deeply appreciate that. I. have to say reading your book, I will. never call him dad again. Was um what is.

the word? It was shocking and it was. infuriating and so so so so disturbing. and so many unimaginable occurrences. I. mean, just unimaginable. And every time. I turn the page, I'd say, "It can't get. worse." And then it would get worse. And. then I heard that you said that this was. um writing of this story was an. opportunity for you to actually.

um state a way of surviving for. yourself. And my intention is is to. invite everyone who hears us to learn. something as a society so that in. Carolene's mother's words, shame must. change sides. And reading your book, as. I was saying, I kept thinking it it. can't get worse and it every time it it. did. Uh I have to say I am in awe of.

your courage. I think a statue should be. built in honor of your mother. I think. what she has done for women in the world. regardless of what kind of um challenge. or difficulty or atrocities that women. have been through that her being able to. stand up for the Pelico name gives the. opportunity for every other woman to. look inside herself and stand up. And I. think for you, Carolene, to be willing.

to speak the truth of your life and this. horrific story is just um an act of. victory and triumph and it shows that. you are a mighty woman. You are a mighty. woman and so is your mother. So I thank. you for writing this book. I mean, I. can't imagine. Well, I I actually can. imagine because in the telling of the. story, you tell us how many times you.

you had a breakdown, but you say that. for you this became a question of. survival. Thank you so much, Oprah. I'm. uh really touched by your words. Um I. really wanted to write down this story. because I wanted to. um to show to the many people that uh. whatever. you you live. in your family you are not you know uh. responsible of what happened. Yeah. And.

there's always something more positive. to share with the with the more. vulnerable people. Mhm. So I wanted I. really wanted to make something useful. and to go beyond, you know, this uh. terrible legacy. Yeah. Well, four years. ago, let's go back to four years ago, you were living a life that you called a. simple and ordinary life. Uh I know many. women around the world can relate to. this and certainly here in the United. States. You had a home in the suburbs.

You had a really good job that you. enjoyed, a husband uh and a six-year-old. son. You were very close with your two. brothers and your parents who had. retired to this picturesque village in. the south of France. So take us back. to November 2nd, 2020, the day all of. that all came crashing down. And I well. I will have to say I really appreciate. in the book how you reflect back to. ordinary things like the kids in the. pool and the moments at the grocery.

store and just ordinary simple things. that are going through your life and. then this horrible thing happens and. nothing is ever the same again. I used to say that I. had a quite normal life you know bal. life. I was the daughter of my two. parents, beloved parents. We were so. close from each other. We were really a. united family. Um I was also but I'm still close from. my two brothers David and Flor. And.

um we were living in a in a yes in a. normal life. We were so um so happy. And. uh I thought that I had a solid. uh cheerful, protective and reassuring. dad. Uh I thought also that they were. happy together. They were living they. lived together for about 50 years. Mhm.

And um and yes, I had a husband. I used. to work. I had a great job. And. uh and then uh you were doing such. ordinary things. I like how you start in. the book talking about you were teaching. your son to put on the mask. Yeah. Because we're in the middle we were in. the middle of the lockdown. Yes. Yes. And uh Yes. We're just just preparing my. our son with my husband to go back to. school. And uh and that day, November.

the the 2nd, 2020, uh all my life and my childhood in a way. collapsed because I thought I knew my my. dad. So it started with a phone call and. it started with a phone call uh the. evening of November the 2nd and I'm I. remembered I worked all day from home. because we were in the middle of the. lockdown and.

um uh I received this call from my mom. and I thought that. um everything was okay and she told me. you have to sit down because I had to. say something really um really difficult. to say over the. So, you have to sit down and uh I just. want to be sure you're not alone and you. are with your husband. And um she told. me, "I just discovered this morning at. the police station where I stayed uh.

almost 5 hours that your dad uh used to. drugged me. um before I was uh raped and I was raped. by uh dozen and dozen stranger. um unknown people and at this time you. know what I still remember you know this. uh this tipping point of my. life I saw I still saw on the clock on.

the oven you know that is 25 8 in the. evening. and that everything change in a second. and I just realized is. that my life will never be the same. Could you even take it in, Carolene, when she's when she's saying, "I'm at. the police. station. and I just found out that your father.

has been raping me and other men have. been raping me. Dozens and dozens of men. have been raping." Could you I don't. even know how you even take that in. So, what did your brain do? What did what. did did you collapse? Did you scream? I. screamed a lot. Uh I cried a lot. But I. you know instinctively. understood what I.

saw over the past years when uh my mom, you know, had this incurrent incurrent. uh. behavior. Um she was talking in a in a. in a in a in a strange way. You had seen. lapses in her memory. She would lapse in. the memories like you know she was doing. amnesia. She didn't remember some of our. conversation about the phone the the the. day the day before. I mean you know so I. told straight away I told her but mom. this is the main reason why you were.

like this because you were drugged. You. were drugged mom and this is the way you. found out? I mean, okay. So, she found. out because she had been brought to the. police station with your dad. Your dad. had been accused of filming underneath. the skirts of other women. So, she. thought she was going to the police. station to witness that or support that. or be there for that occasion. Correct. Yeah. And this the the morning of.

November the 2nd, they have to tell my. mom that he was arrested and that um the. way you describe it in the book is so. really incredible. They take him into a. room. They put your mother in a room. She is sitting there, Jeazelle Pelico, and she is being asked all these. questions about what is your. relationship with your husband and what. kind of a man is is he? and she's. feeling, you know, you're you're being. invasive and why are you asking me these. questions? Correct. And then they show.

her the photographs. Yeah. They show her. seven different photographs with seven. different. men where while she was abused. And uh. and what is in those photographs, Carolene? You saw my mom drugged that. been raped by a different man each time. And uh they have to uh tell her that uh. there's so many others. There's.

pictures, photographs, but also videos. And the reason why they have these. photographs is because they the police. had confiscated his computer. and had originally been investigating. him because of the two women that he's. charged with filming under their their. skirts. And then they found all of these. pictures and videos that your father, the man you will never call dad again, had been taking for.

years of your mother. So, those of you. who are not familiar with the story, Carolene's. father went on the internet to some. website. and invited men into their home, into. the marriage that he had been with. Jazelle Pelico for now 50 years. 50. years. and invited men into the home to.

come and have sex with his. wife to rape her on a regular basis. This was happening on a regular basis. cuz I read in in in one of the reports. that several of the men had been back. five and six times. Some of them went. several times, some of them went only. one time. Uh but my mom was raped more. than 200 times. She was raped more than 200 times during. 10. years by more.

than 70 different men. By more than 70. different men and 50 of those men stood. trial. Yes. So, how did your father drug. your mother and how did you. um your brother David and Florian is how. did you how did the children in the. family not sense that something was. wrong? My father were was used to used to to.

use some prescription medicine. prescription drugs medicine coming from. the fabic cabinet medicine. Mhm. It was. sedative, zonolytics or even, you know, um painkillers. Okay. And we were using. those medicine, you know, within the. food, even within the within a glass of. wine or he would crush sleeping pills. Was mixing, you know, all of these uh. substances. During the trial, Dominique confessed. that he regularly crushed prescription.

sleeping pills and anti-anxiety. medications into Jiselle's meals or her. favorite dessert, raspberry ice cream, which he would bring to her in. bed. The drugs caused Jiselle to have. frequent blackouts, insomnia, and bouts. of. amnesia. She suffered hair loss and also. lost 22 lb over the 8 years. As Jiselle's memory lapses continued, Carolene and her brothers became.

increasingly concerned that their mother. was in the early stages of Alzheimer's. disease. Despite several doctor visits. and a brain scan, no cause was ever. found to explain these episodes. No. doctor or family member thought to test. her blood for drugs. He actually had a formula that he would. tell the other men about because he was. also teaching them how to drug their. wives. Yeah. And also give those uh I I. was going to say uh recipe uh uh you.

know to some other men and they. replicated the same you know process. Yes. To rape their wives. To rape their. wife. Yeah. To rape their wives. And so. you write on page 27, what depths of. dishonesty does it take to have. maintained all these years the tranquil. illusion that everything was normal. So. I know your mother even felt like your. father doted on her. Didn't you all.

think he doted on her? He loves her. This is a great marriage. You know, even my mother told to the. police station to the policeman that he. was a great guy before, you know, uh discovering the truth and the reality. of his real personality. And the fact is. that we lived with him, a side of him. without knowing, you know, we knew his. face. A because there's I think there's two. faces within Domini Pelico. face a which.

is a good guy, good neighbor, a good. husband, a good parent I mean and. another one which is a real manipulator. and he was doing you know he was. coexisting with these two faces in at. home and we never saw so he would do on. your mother. He would make meals for. her. He would always when he was around. you always he was really protective with. her. He was, you know, uh they were really uh really close from. each other and so we never saw him I.

never saw my dad stare at a. woman. I never saw my dad, you know, having a a strange behavior with some. woman. I mean, or even seem interested. in other women. No. Or flirting with. other women or anything. Never. Never. ever. You you you felt that they were. devoted. and and in the police station. when she first arrived when they asked. her what was your relationship, she said. her husband was a great man and a great. neighbor and all those things. How would. you describe him as a father to you. growing up?

He was really. um he was taking care of me. He was. close to me. uh he used to bring me to. school to encourage me you know within. my studies we used to get a lot of. conversation different kind of. conversation I thought he was a good. father but in the end. uh uh you know I know now since 42 years.

old that uh is probably one of the most. important sexual criminal yes criminal. in France And that is a whole lot to. have to reckon with the father that. you've known to be the devoted husband. to your mother and to be there caring. for you and always interested in you. And then to realize that there was this. whole other side of this man that you. didn't know about. So I realized that a. few days you write in I'll never call.

him dad again. You write that you were. called to the police station a few days. after your mother and father had been. there and she had recognized that first. of all h how did she react in the. beginning? Did she did she I mean. there's there's a picture of her body. um you know lying there in the bed or. wherever she was was placed and she can. see that she's out of it that she's.

drugged and it's one man after another. man after another man. How did she even. I think she in she leaves a kind of a. diss disassociation disassociation sorry. because it was a real shock for her. Those of you who are listening to us or. watching you know hopefully you won't. have to go through something as horrible. as that. But you know when you go. through something that is shocking when. you have been.

betrayed it feels like it strips you of. everything you thought you knew. It. strips you of your own identity because. here I was a person who believed all. this time that you were a certain way. who so what does that say about me that. I couldn't see that you know it just. causes people to question themselves did. that happen with you me I live kind of. post-traumatic stress disorder.

absolutely okay so let's go back the. police called you back to the station. and what did they show you. uh they had to show me two pictures of. me almost naked with a paint a beige. paint which is not mine laying on the. left side like my mom. uh she is on almost all the photographs. and. videos and um I had to recognize myself. at first you didn't recognize yourself. it was so difficult to me to realize.

that he did what he did to your. to my mother, but also to me, you know. Yeah. When you're looking at But okay, so you're brought back to the police. station and the police show you pictures. that they've taken from your father's. computer of you in a pair of panties. that you don't even recognize. I don't. recognize it. And you are knocked out. You don't recall even where or how that. could have been. I don't have any. recollection of the of where there those.

pictures were taken. Mhm. That day, I. mean, it was November the 3rd, so the. day after. Wow. The revelation with my. mom. So, almost 24 hours after. And I. had to sue my father because I saw. myself, but it took me like it took me. like 15 minutes to realize that it was. me on those two different pictures. They. got a two different place.

uh with a another pent which is not. mine. So I live. like a a. tsunami because I realized that my mom. was not the only victim of this family. was also. you. It was also.

you. That leaves me speechless because. to recognize first of all the day before. that your father has been calling in. strangers to rape your mother and. drugging her for over a decade. And then the next day to be called in to. see pictures of yourself. drugged. Immediately your thought goes. to did he also rape me? Yes. I um to me I saw this woman on.

those two photographs and I. deeply I'm deeply convinced that first. I'm drugged and then that he probably. raped me. Mhm. He denies raping you. He denies and uh. over those uh past four years and even. during this trial, he refused to tell. the truth and he uh he said a different.

version. But we don't know the main. reason why he took those pictures and. told what does he say? Because my thing. is if you see you see the pictures of. your mother knocked out and obviously. she was raped because he filmed. everything. He obviously didn't film. himself or anybody with you, but there. are the pictures. Why would Why does he. say he took the pictures of you knocked. out and drugged? He didn't remember. taking those two pictures.

Oh, and why does he say he drugged you? He said that it's not me on the. photographs. He said thath he never. touched me. He never raped me. He never. drugged me. But there's those two. pictures. You know what I mean? Mhm. The. pictures were in a file and the file was. labeled something. What was the file. labeled? The pictures were in a file. labeled my daughter naked.

They found that the two photograph. uh which was deleted two months before. he was arrested. Oh, through this IT. expertise. Oh, so an IT expertise found those. photographs that had been deleted. It's. a lot. So he tried to actually get rid. of those photographs. Exactly. A week. after our interview, Carolene filed a. legal complaint against her father, accusing him of drugging and sexually. abusing her over a 10-year period when.

she was in her 30s. Carolene says she. filed with the prosecutor as a message. to all victims that you must never give. up. Later, they found pictures of your. sister-in-law. Is it your sister-in-law? You have two had two sister-in-laws. I. have two sister-in-laws. Yes. Yes. And. the two sister-in-laws, he had been. taking pictures, nude pictures of them. coming out of the shower or in their own. living in their own bedroom. Uh even.

when one of my sister-in-law was in was. pregnant, you know, and uh none of the. women of this family were spared. Yes. No woman in this family, this. immediate family was spared. What was. your mother's reaction when you told her. that they had found photos of you and. your father's files? She wasn't able to. react. She was.

um she was kind of locked in the. silence. She uh she was not able to. support or even to help me. And I think that's you know the the. consequences of this uh post-traumatic. stress disorder. She was not able to. help me even to believe me you know. Yes. Because she wasn't with at the. police station with me at at that time. So and my brother had to to tell to to. her but mom it's really Caroline on.

those two photographs. But you know she. was she was. lost from reading the book. I know. things might have changed since you. wrote the book. From reading the book, it appeared to me. that your mom still did. not believe that your father sexually. assaulted you. That she could wrap her. head around the fact that she had been. raped by all of those men and that he. had called them in for years and she was.

drugged. But there was something. about her not being able to accept that. it actually happened to you. And at one. point that became a a great tension. between you because she said, you know, why do you keep, you know, um talking. about this or fixating on this? I mean, he wasn't mean his whole life or he was. he was good for part of your life is. what she said. You know, I think she's.

um it's difficult for her, for a mom uh. to realize that you were not protective. enough. I mean, that you did not protect. your daughter in your own. family. I think it's a difficult ordeal. to face for her. Mhm. Um but we are in a different position. I. mean for her I think it's probably. easier to consider that she is the only.

victim of Dominique. Mhm. Because you. know she she decide to live with him. She he was her. husband but you know. uh realizing that he might uh have you. know sexually. abuse her daughter. I I think it's it's. impossible for her. It's a kind of an. auto protection. So what did this. process? What did this do Carolene to.

the relationship between you and your. mother? Because at one point you write. in the book one brother was siding with. the mother and the other brother was. siding with you. What did what did this. do to the whole family? Because no one wanted to believe that. this had actually happened to you even. though you have the pictures. you know we have to leave. uh our you know uh reconstruction.

differently. and from. uh I mean separately. still I mean she uh she um I understood. that she's not able to uh to realize and. I have to respect that because you know. I I don't have any fatherh but I still. have a mother. And it's interesting you do write to and. say it so beautifully. I forgot the. phrase about how you are the daughter of.

both the. victim and the perpetrator. Yeah. Yeah. So after seeing the photos of yourself. um it became too much to bear. And. there's no one listening to us or. watching us right now who doesn't. understand that your brain just can't. even You're first trying to process my. mother has been raped by 70 different. men. That's on November 2nd. And then on. November 3rd, you're brought back to the.

police station. You see pictures of. yourself and now you've got to process. what happened to me and it was too much. to bear and you ended up just having a. breakdown. What what does a breakdown. feel like? Can you share with us what. does that what is happening when you. break? I felt abandoned like an orphan. Abandoned by my father because it was. the worst. betrayal, you know, discovering that you. don't know who you raised you. Yeah. And.

uh I felt alone all by myself, you know, without any support from my mom because. she was unable to to be there for me. So, [Music]. uh, it's a lot of loneliness. So, you went into hospital for how long? Almost 72 hours. Yeah. Almost 72. Just. to sort of get your brain straightened. out. So that I can sleep. Mhm. But you.

know the the weird thing that they had. to sedate me you know at the hospital. for for you know for for me being able. to to sleep. And uh this was exactly you. know the the mod superondi that my dad. used you know to to rape my mom and me. And as you know I was in the hospital uh. you know amongst different uh GPS and so. on and I realized that the only way.

to care of me to take care of me was to. uh to to sedate me and to give me some. peel some pills some sleeping pills. Yes. So which was you know like uh quite. also triggering. Triggering. Yes. Yes. And so uh I was there and I realized. that there were there are no no uh real. support from you know uh the victims. were suffering for chemical submission. Uhhuh. We need to get a special support.

in that. case. So it was really. um tough for me. Chemical submission occurs when a. perpetrator uses drugs to make someone. unconscious or incapacitated in order to. commit a crime against them. Although. chemical submission is not new, Jazelle. Pelico's case drew renewed attention to. the method being used specifically to. perpetrate sexual assaults. This type of. crime has been on the rise for 20 years.

in France. In the United States, this. crime is referred to as drug facilitated. sexual assault. It is also on the rise. here in America, but difficult to. prosecute due to lack of evidence. You. you talk in the book how you and your. mother were not supported as rape. victims should be. You're told this. information and then just left on your. own. I I got the impression from your. story though that at times the police.

were sympathetic because they couldn't. even believe what they were pulling up. They they couldn't believe themselves. That's the impression I got from the. book, correct me if I'm wrong, that this. this this man. Dominique, the man you'll never call dad. again, had done this to his wife. It's the worst case in France. And even. the policeman didn't see that kind of. story before. Yes.

Nobody had ever even heard of this. before. Never. Never ever. It was for. them. coming to a nice little French. neighborhood suburban home. The men. would park down the street. Can we talk. for a minute about the 50 men accused? They they know that there were at least. 70, but they were able to identify 50 of. the men from the tapes because. uh uh Carolene's. father had one condition for the men. He.

didn't charge the men to come in and. rape his wife. He only insisted that he. be able to film it. And therefore, all. of those men who raped Jeazelle Pelico. over a period of more than a decade, all. of those men are on tape. And they. ranged in ages from 26 years old to 74. years old. And they come from all. backgrounds. One was a sales manager. I. heard one was a journalist. There was a.

firefighter. They're all fathers and. grandfathers and one of the perpetrators. I heard was also one of your mom's. neighbor, right? Yes. They were like um. every like the good men, the good. neighbor, the good neighbors. They were. well insert in inserted within the. society. There were some job with some. role and responsibilities. They were. dad, grandfather and all of that. And. one of the men uh was HIV positive. Yes. And he came several time. He came.

seven times. He came seven times. Seven times. So my. my and was HIV positive and obviously. never said he was HIV positive. So your. mom did not contract the disease. She's. a miracle. That's a miracle. That's a. miracle. And he didn't use a condom. No. Never ever. None of these men were. using condoms. None of None of these. men. So, wouldn't your mom. have, you know, vaginal infections or.

urinary tract infections? Was weren't. there always something going on with. her? She had some um. genologist troubles. Yes. But, you know, as a GP, when you saw a a woman who is. 78 years old, you don't even think about. that. In 2019, when Jiselle told. Carolene that she'd been bleeding. heavily from her vagina, Carolene.

brought her mother to a gynecologist. The doctor detected an inflammation of. her uterine passage and prescribed some. antifungal ointment and left it at. that. So, at one point from prison, I. think your father wrote a letter to his. brother. He wrote a letter. Your your. father writes a letter to his brother. saying that life is too hard and. Carolene's anger is making it worse. He. then writes to his brother try to calm.

try to calm her meaning you down. What. was your reaction when you read that. letter? First of all, he's not even. supposed to be writing letters from. prison is what I understood in the. beginning contacting the family. No, he. wasn't able I mean he he was not able to. do that but he. did and uh you know um I was so angry. you know the anger that I feel toward. him is so hard I mean it's so strong. [Music]. um I realized reading this letter that.

you know he is a real manipulator he's a. liar he's playing a role. He played a role probably all of his. life and all that time. Did you feel so. he really wasn't my dad? He was just. playing a role as a dad. Is that what. you ended up feeling? I don't know. I think uh you know. um in the end I don't think he was.

really happy in his own. life. Uh obviously. so um and he blamed this uh on the fact. that when he was 9 years old I think he. was sexually assaulted. Yes. This is. what he told. Yeah. And that at 14 he. was forced to watch a gang rape. and so he then created a life where his. own wife was gang raped. You know I think uh I don't know it's.

the truth to be honest with you. I don't. know it's the truth. Uh I heard about. this um this story when he was 9 years. old but after you. know I don't give any credit. Yeah. And. lots of people are raped at 9 years old. and 10 and 12 and 14 and they don't grow. up and do this. You know whatever it is. you. whoever you are you choose who you want. to be in life. Yes. Yes. And he and he. has you know he had a chance to get a.

nice family. He was loved. He was loved. that his wife and his three children, he. was grandfather. I mean, yeah. Which is. what most people are looking for is to. is to know that they are loved. And I. know at one point your mother uh tells. you that your father is in a bad way. In. the book you write, I'll never call him. dad again. Your mom says to you that. Dominique is in a bad way and she. somehow feels that she has failed him in.

some way. And on another occasion, she. actually packed him warm clothes and. personal items. What did you think of. that? Did that feel like betrayal to you. that your mom is now betraying you? I think she was in a denial. Yes. [Music]. Uh for her having to look at. him as he is in reality. Yeah. It is too.

tough. Well, this is the thing. She made. a decision early on in the trial and you. all can read about the trial. She made a. decision that she was going to first of. all take this to trial and it let it be. an open trial, not through closed doors. because she wanted to shift the shame. That's why she deserves a a statue in. her honor that she wanted to shift the. shame and not have the shame be on the. victim. Even though this horrible.

shameful thing had happened to her, she's saying, "I'm not going to bear the. shame. The shame should be on these this. journalist, this firefighter, the all. these men who are known as every man in. the community. They should be carrying. the shame. I won't carry the shame." And. I love that she took that upon herself. With the help of phone records and more. than 20,000 videos and images taken from. Dominique Pelico's computer files, the. police were able to track down 50 of the.

more than 70 men suspected of raping. Jiselle. Last year, one of the most. shocking rape trials in modern history, 51 men, took place in Aminon, France. Giselle Pelico took the stand to explain. that she waved her right of anonymity. and made her name and the horrific. images public to stand up for other. women who suspect they've been drugged. and raped. She said she wants society to. change the way it deals with rape and to. shift the shame from the victim to the.

perpetrator. For this extraordinary act. of bravery, Jisselle became a hero in. France and around the world. That's why she deserves all of our. praise because she said she also when. was asked why wouldn't you change your. last name after divorcing him because. she divorced him last year, wasn't it? Last year. She's divorced since the very. first day of this trial. Okay. Since. September the second. So she divorced him.

and still wanted to carry the name. because she has grandchildren who will. carry that name. And she said that she. wanted that name not to be a name of. shame but a name of honor. And that's. why she was standing up for herself so. that the grandchildren could carry that. name and that would be a name of honor. I I just think that is magnificent that. she was able to do that. To me, my mom. is a hero. I mean, she's a hero. Uh, and.

in France, but I think everywhere else, we just have to be grateful for what she. did. Yes. Because, you know, she walked. in this court every day during four. months to face all of these men, including. Dominic, showing up all of this video. while they showed these videos. And they. show the videos every day. And all the men testified. 50 men. testified. Yeah. 51. 51. 51 meaning.

Dominique. Yes. Yeah. And uh can you all. imagine that? I mean, we were just. hearing about it. I was reading about it. in the New York Times, but I didn't. realize that they were showing the tapes. in the courtroom every day and that she. had to sit there and witness that every. day. She went really every day, eight. hours a day. Yeah. and she uh she showed up a really she's. she's strong and the message behind is.

if she is able to do. that while she is 72 years old. for all the other victims invisible. victims they can do the same. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And it's not just victims of. sexual assault. I mean it's it's. everything. It's anybody who has been. afraid of standing up. I just don't know. anything that is more courageous than. that because you've got the whole world.

looking at you and saying, "Why didn't. you know?" I mean, even the family and. you you tell the story in I'll never. call him dad again. You tell the story. of her being at the dinner table and. your brother witnessing her falling out. of the. chair and your father saying what about. that? He said that she was really tired, that. she was really active and uh because he. spent uh 15 days with her children and.

uh so he was just telling them that. telling him to the Florian that uh uh. she was tired and we believed him. because we trusted him. So he had so he. had drugged her. He drugged her during. that evening. Yeah. that evening and. Flor and his wife and and his uh. children was about to leave the house. and to get to go back to. Paris. So, you know, he did everything. perfectly. It was every time well.

organized, you know, it was manipulated. Manipulated and he had a real rhythm. He. had a pattern to it. Yeah. Yeah. He had. it down. Exactly. Yeah. And the men knew. where to come. And he would tell the. men, "Don't wear any. cologne. Don't smoke. Don't smoke. Wash. your wash your hands. Wash your hands. and warm your hands before you come in. because so that your cold hands don't. disturb her in a way that she wakes up.".

And so she would come out of this stuper. of being. drugged and not have a memory of. anything that had ever happened. But you know most of the time this is. what happened for all of these. victims because you know chemical. submission is an underestimated. uh health public issue in France and. some most of the time the victims do not. have any recollection or even no.

memories about the the sexual. assau. When you go over all of the. evidence against your father with your. family lawyer, you're struck by I was. struck by it, too. You You didn't use. the language in the book, but I was just. I was struck by the crude language your. father uses. It's really your rude. to the other men when he's talking on. the internet about his wife. He calls.

her he he calls her lots of really bad. names. He uses the word [ __ ] a lot when. referring to her. I I read that. someplace else. You did not put those. words in the book. Why did you choose. not to include the language that your. father had used to describe your mother? Because the story is. um tough. enough. Um it's a it's a kind of a shame to me. I I didn't want to write those words. It.

humiliated her and I didn't want to. write down those terrible words in my. book. Mhm. Because I wanted to share my. own story the I mean our family. story but my own condition with my own. condition. Yeah. I got this is a message. of hope. Yes. I got you know what I. mean? Of course I do. And so I just. didn't want to uh to put those uh words. But you know when I read that he was. using such crude language, I did say why.

why didn't you use words? But I thought. wow. So does he hate. women? Does he hate women in general? Or. did he just secretly hate his wife? What. is your answer to that? That's a really. good point to. bra because you know to me I think he's. really I think he has a clear distation. for all the women's I think he he hates. woman the position the do you know the.

position of the woman and I think it's. related probably within his own mother. in his own family I don't know. u but not do not have any respect. certainly no respect for. women or just that woman. I mean, I I. don't I you know what is so hard for I. mean I'm I'm sure it's troubling for you. too, devastating is how in one.

breath cuz it sounds like when he says, you know, Gizelle is the love of my life. that he actually means that when he's. saying that to his brothers or what that. she's been the love of my life on. there's one part of him that believes. that. Do you believe that? No. You just. think that's part of he believes himself. and you know he's so split in two. Okay. No, I think he believes what he what he. say, but it's not it's not. tangible. It It's not tangible. You.

couldn't possibly love somebody and do. that to them. No. No. Um, in court, did. he explain why he did it? Did he say it. was a part of a fantasy? It was a part. of a he did does what what is what is. his explanation for why he did that to. your mother? He didn't give you know a lot of. explanation. Uh you know what we don't even know the.

inaugural acts when meaning the first. time that he started to rob her for. helping her. We do not know. Even after. four months of this trial, he wouldn't. tell the truth. He didn't. I mean, and I. think he didn't tell the truth, but I. think he wouldn't tell the truth. He. wouldn't tell the truth. He wouldn't. tell the truth. I think he's going to. die with a lot of secrets, dark secrets. Mhm. Mhm. Have you, Carolene, come to terms. with not knowing what really happened to.

you, or do you think you know what. happened to you? Are you are you has. that has that been resolved for. yourself? I know that. I I I was drugged. You know you were. drugged. I know. That's the to me it's a. it's a deep conviction right from the. start. Well, you know you're drugged. because you can see yourself in the. picture. So, I'm drugged on those.

pictures. So, I know it happened. But. the real question is why? And when you know the criminal past of. Dominic Pelico, didn't he say he just. wanted to look at just wanted to look at. you? He didn't he didn't say anything. Oh, okay. Anything. So, I will I will I will have. to live with that doubt all my life. I. think it's important for all of us to. note that Carolene's family's.

case made global headlines because it. was so extreme and her father was caught. with over 20,000 pieces of evidence. Authority told us that these types of. drug induced intimate partner crimes are. on the rise but are extremely difficult. to detect and of course to prosecute. And so before this interview, I asked. Carolene if she would be okay if we. invited Jenny Tissson to our. conversation and she said yes. Jenny now.

joins us from Minnesota. Hi Jenny. I. know you've been watching and listening. and can relate to Carolene's story. You. were married, I understand, to your. college sweetheart. uh for 12 years and then you made a. shocking discovery. What was it? Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm. really grateful to be in this. conversation with the two of you. Um, yes. So, I was traveling for work and it. was a quick trip, so I grabbed a. backpack um from our closet. It happened.

to be one of my husbands. Um, but we. both used it and packed it, went on the. trip, did all the travels, came back, and was going through each pocket and. pulling the toiletries out. And in one. of the pockets, I discovered a flash. drive that wasn't one I had seen or. neither of us had used. Um, and so I. plugged it in and I discovered that. there was eight videos on that flash. drive and six of them were of my husband.

videotaping his co-workers. He was a. vice president of a bank and they had a. single stall employee bathroom and he. was recording his co-workers going to. the bathroom. And then there was two. additional videos on there of um me. getting out of the shower and then one. of us having sex that I was not aware. of. And what did you what was your immediate. reaction to. that? Honestly,

um this sounds awful, but it was my. golden ticket. Um it was throughout our. marriage, there was so many red flags. and there was so many things that I. discovered and found, but he always had. a way to blame me um that it was my. fault that he did this or it was my. fault that he did that. And for the. first time, I had something that wasn't. had nothing to do with me. There was no.

way. I was not there. I was not. videotaping his co-workers. So, this was. the first time that as it sounds so. silly cuz there was no reason to have an. excuse for all of the other things. But, it was truly it was shocking and. uh it was also my way out. I hear when. you filed for divorce, your lawyers told. you to take a closer look at your home. computer. And what did you find there? Yeah. So, um through the through our.

marriage, um there was lots of. consensual photos and when I clicked. through um all of the photos on our. laptop, there. was double the amount of non-consensual. photos and videos. And I was tasked with. clicking on each single one um like. Carolene's story, folders and folders. and folders deep um and came.

across a video of my vagina and I. clicked on it and I discovered that he. was underneath the covers with the. lights on and he was penetrating my. vagina with a dildo and My legs were. limp and he crawls through the covers. He stops penetrating me. He crawls. through the covers and um pans in on my. face and my face is on my pillow. My.

mouth is open and it is clear that I am. incapacitated. As he panned the wider image out, my son. was laying on the same pillow as me in. the video while he's raping me. He's. raping you and you are drugged. And this. was used during your court case. We also. asked Carolene ahead of this time if if. she's okay for us to show this. So, can. we're going to roll this tape. Okay. And.

you tell us what are we seeing here. This is. act and this is another of many times. where he is checking to make sure that. I'm passed. out. and as you can see I am clearly. incapacitated. Do you recall any of this? Do you recall. any of this at all? So actually that. instance absolutely none of the in when.

I am out cold in any of these I do not. just like Carolene's story it's so. relatable I do not it's it's out of body. is the only way I can describe it um but. that specific instance when we were in. Anguila um we had gone to a bar we scoop. we were scuba divers so we weren't. cocktailing it up and I had ordered a. pina colada and I needed to go to the. bathroom so I told my husband you know. Hey, watch my drink. I'm going to run to. the bathroom. And I came right back and. I took a sip through the straw and on my.

tongue through the straw there was this. toxic poisonous taste and it was a half. of a pill and it was disintegrating on. my tongue. And I said, "Oh my gosh, I've. been drugged. Please, you know, help. I've been drugged." And he looked at me. and he took his the palm of his hand and. he slammed it on my knee and he said, "Jen, calm down." I said, "Calm down.

You want me to calm down? Someone just. drugged my drink." Like, you can see the. pill. You could actually tell it was. broken in half cuz it still was intact. And he said, "Calm down. It must have. been." And he goes into his shirt. pocket. The other half of my ambient. must have fallen out as I was reaching. over the bar to grab something from. behind the bar. Oh, and I remember.

going, that is crazy. That does not make. sense. It none of it does, but also I'm. on vacation. I'm with my husband, right, who I trust. But I remember in. hindsight, so seeing that video just. went, well, this makes sense. Yeah. And I wanted to say to everybody, we're showing the video with your. permission, not to exploit the story, but just to see how it happens. I. remember when I saw it for the first.

time, I'm sure you felt had similar. feelings. It's just so vile and creepy. and disgusting that someone you're. sleeping next to every night whom you. trust could do that to you. Exactly. This is this is supposed to be. the person who protects me the most, you. know, my greatest protector. And here I. am in bed next to them and they are.

putting me in harm. Well, you will see. yourself many times over in I'll Never. Call Him Dad again because you're you I. I I I have to say that when we saw this. story that became a global story, I. think a lot of people were thinking, "Oh, well that could never happen here. in the United States." Not only did it. happen, it's like right there in the. heart of Minnesota. So, thank you so. much for sharing your story. Thank you, Jenny. Thank you so much. It's really.

important to get your testimonial and to. make understand. that the case of my mom and our family. is not an isolated one and uh I'm really. grateful. Thank you so much. Thank you. Have you healed from this? Have you. healed from this? I don't I don't think healed's the right. word. Okay. Um I continue to move on. I'm a single mom. Um I do my best. Um.

but it's still ongoing. Um we're eight. years post divorce and I'm actually in. court tomorrow um again for our post. divorce. Still fighting for the safety. of myself and my kids. Jenny Tissson was first told that her. ex-husband Matthew Hegger would be. charged with a felony which could put. him in prison for up to 15 years. However, the felony charge was dropped. because of a littleknown marital rape.

loophole in Minnesota. law. Despite being found guilty of a. variety of crimes, Hegger served less. than 30 days in jail for the crimes he. committed against Jenny and his former. co-workers. Although it was too late for. her case, Jenny fought for a bill in. Minnesota to remove any protections for. spouses who raped their partners. In. 2019, Governor Tim Waltz signed the bill. into law. Okay. So, the right the wrong word is. heal. I I would agree with that. Have.

Have you been able to carry on in a way. that your life feels like it's still. hopeful and that you will be able to one. day put this behind you? You're not. defined by it is what I'm trying to say. Amen. Absolutely. I am not defined by. this. This will not define who I am as a. person. Absolutely not. I think um as a. parent um it is most important to show.

my children strength and positivity and. also speaking out. What do you say to. your children about this? Because I you. know in in in Carolene's case, she and. her brothers were older. They're adults. with their own families and children. But when you have teenage children and. this is their father who has done this. dis despicable disgusting thing to you. and you are fighting in the courts, not. only fighting in the courts, I want to. say you got the marital rape laws.

changed in. Minnesota. How do you explain this to. your children? Yeah. So when this all. started, they were five and nine. And so. at a very different life point in their. life and I ended up um I did change the. law in Minnesota. There was a loophole. on our books that said at the time that. if you were married or cohabitating at. the time of a offense under the.

subheading of incapacitated that you. could not be charged. Um, and so I did. change the law and there was a lot of. press around that. So I ended up having. at nine years old with my daughter and. of course working with therapist the sex. talk and a talk about rape. Um, pretty. much in the same breath. And for my son. and for both of them it was around. boundaries. And the analogy that I used. with my son is if you're pushing someone.

on a swing and they say stop, you stop. You honored their no. You honored their. stop. You honored the boundary. And for. my daughter with the rape conversation, it was about owning your body and your. body. You have the rights to your body. Whether you're married, in a. relationship, you own the rights to what. happens to yourself and you get to. choose. So that was a big part of the. conversation I had with her at the time. Well, thank you for standing up for not. just yourself and your daughter, but for. all the daughters. Thank you. Thank you,

Jenny. Absolutely. Thank you. In your. book, you you include a hypothetical. letter to your father. Can you read us. an excerpt from that? Okay. The other thing for us, your. children, is to admit that you never. knew who you were. You from we were. thought a good honest loyal man betrayed. us choosing to sacrifice us to your dark. side thinking you were smart enough to. play by your own rules and not get.

caught. I keep telling myself that you. must have lost all love and respect for. us along long time ago in order to be. able to inflict such upon us. You. demolished the one family you had, giving no thought to how much we might. prize. it. I loved you and respected you. I. helped you as any daughter would have. who felt grateful towards our father. You never kept us your end of the.

bargain. You refuse to be a real father. or grandfather and never be able to. forgive you and that's just something I. have to learn to live with. So, how have you learned to live with. it? I'm fighting, you know. Uh, I. threw myself body and soul into the this. fight against, you know, chemical.

submission. And to me, it's became, I. think, one of the most important mission. of my. life. I needed to make something more. noble. Um, the campaign is stop chemical. submission. Don't put me. under. In 2023, Carolene launched the. movement to stop chemical submission. Don't put me under. To help rape victims.

who had been drugged and to raise. awareness of this issue among medical. professionals and the general public. [Applause]. [Music]. And what is the mission? What is the. goal? The mission is to drive awareness. about the sales public issue. And the. mission is to say to all the victims, all the invincible victims to speak up. and to to let them know that uh they. came they have to come forward because.

there there will be a listen to but also. believe because it's really important. for them to know that. and to be supportive. And uh one of the. most biggest tasks that we have you know. as a with our charity is to make. understand to the government but also to. the health professional that they have a. key role to play. Mhm. They have to be trained to better detect.

and identifying those cases. Yes. If. somebody comes in and they're having. blackouts and blackouts and blackouts, blackouts, amnesia, weight loss, hair. loss. Yeah. Uh because there are so many. consequences when you are a victim of. chemical submission. You can get traffic. accidents un unwanted pregnancies. Yes. Addiction and so on, you know. Yeah. So. it's really important to raise awar to. really raise awareness about this uh. chemical submission. So I was so struck.

um how you writed the book. I'll never. call him dad again. how you write about. the two women in the grocery store. I. mean, if the two women at the grocery. store had never pressed charges against. him for filming up their dress, none of. this would have been discovered. I mean, I worry and wonder what would have. happened to your mom. She would just. continue to been drugged and eventually. what would all of those drugs have done. to her brain? What if those drugs have.

done to her? She probably could have. died. Yeah. Yeah. And nobody would have known. and we would have never known. In December 2024, a French court found. Dominique Pelico guilty of repeatedly. drugging and raping his wife and. orchestrating her rape by dozens of. other men. He was given the maximum. sentence of 20 years in prison. All 50 of Dominique Pelico's. codefendants were also found guilty of.

rape, attempted rape, or sexual assault, and receive sentences ranging from three. to 15. years. You say that for years now, you've been trying to find a a new way. to exist. And uh during the trial, you. also asked, "How are you supposed to. rebuild yourself from the. ruins when you know your father is the. worst sexual predator of the past 20.

years? How are you managing to re. rebuild your life? Your son was six at. the time. Now he's 10. Your son was. really close to his grandfather. You too, just just like Jenny, had to. tell your son about his grandfather. being in jail and try to carry on with. your life. How have you been able to. rebuild? I'm a positive woman. I'm a. positive woman and I'm an active woman.

So, one of the things which really. helped me to go beyond is really the. engagement that I have with this. charity. But you know I had a chance to. get really well supported by my husband. and by my son. And today what what's the. most. important things to me it's really my. own. family because you know the one that I. have. before it's.

over. So, one of the most important. things and precious things to me is. really my husband and my my son and uh. also all of my friends. Mhm. How is your. mother? How is she now? I know she moved. out of the house. you all moved her out. of that house shortly, you know, after. all of this happened and she moved to. another area and another neighborhood. and is driving again because at one. point she didn't even.

feel safe to drive because she didn't. understand where the blackouts were. coming from or when she would have a. blackout. So, I understand she's back to. driving again. But how is she? She is. safe. She uh he's a strong woman. She's. an independent woman. She is well. supported by, you know, her friends and. family. Do you all talk about this? Yes, we talked about this. We How does she. feel about this book? She read this book.

and uh she wasn't really comfortable. right from the start, but she understood. also that, you know, uh it was really. important to me. Mhm. How is the family. relationship? Are you all would you say. not as close as you used to be? This. certainly from what you wrote in the. book didn't make you closer. So has it. still created its distances amongst you. and the family? I think this uh this. terrible story.

u split artist in two. and so my mom and me we are now. rebuilding from our side because uh I. can't think we can help each other. Mhm. Mhm. And so what's your message now to people. who either have experienced something. like this or the reason why you wanted. to share your story and to put it into. words that would last forever is because.

you want people to know what. Caroline, I just want them to know that they can. speak up, speak. out. um and there they also have to uh to. trust. themselves know that. um they are precious. Yes, their voice. is are really. precious and um this is only all.

together whatever is in France, in. Europe or even in the US, you know, thanks to Genie's testimony. Yes. That. we have to make things change. Yes. So, I just wanted to say to all of the. invisible victim that that they have to. uh come forward and to speak up. Yes. And you know, one of the things that I. think, you know, nothing this horrible. ever happened to me, and I know many of.

you who will read, I'll never call him. Dad Again, hopefully nothing. um so egregious and despicable ever. happens to you. But I think what you. said earlier in the uh hypothetical. letter to your father is true. When you. have been betrayed and severely betrayed. by someone, the hardest thing for. anybody who has experienced that kind of. betrayal is to admit that you actually. never knew who you.

were. And especially if it's somebody you. thought was a good and honest person, and to have to admit to yourself, you. know what? I just didn't know. I didn't. know who you were and be able to forgive. yourself for that and be able to, as. Jenny said, to move forward. I thank you. so much, Carolene. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming all of this way. And thank you, Jenny, uh, Tissson, too,

for joining us from Minnesota. The book is I'll Never Call Him Dad. Again. And as you have heard from this. conversation, it is a riveting and a. harrowing read. It is available now on. Amazon. And I want to take a moment to. say if you or you are or you suspect you. are the victim of a sexual. assault, if what we have said here today. sounds familiar to you, blacking out and. can't remember things and this doesn't.

make sense and all of that the signals, call the National Sexual Assault. Hotline, there's the number on your. screen, 1 8006564673. Go. well. You can subscribe to the Over. Podcast on YouTube and follow us on. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks. everybody.