Oprah and Bruce Willis' Wife Emma on Finding Strength, Hope & Yourself in Caregiving

Hello and thank you. Thanks for joining. me on this uh Oprah podcast. It's. wonderful having you here where we're. talking about things that I believe. matter in the world. And it is my hope. that um the conversations that we're. having are impactful for your life. That's that's why I'm doing it. Listen. to this. It is estimated that 40 million. people in the United States alone are. caregiving for a family member. And that. number is on the rise. So, chances are.

that most of you watching or listening. will one day be faced with caring for a. spouse if you're not already, or caring. for an elderly parent if you're not. already, or a child. We know from. research that caregiving can have. significant emotional, physical, and. financial impacts on those who are. taking on that huge responsibility. And. I'm joined by someone who knows this all. too well. Her new book, The Unexpected.

Journey, chronicles her story of caring. for her husband, actor Bruce Willis, who. was diagnosed with fronttotemporal. dementia in 2023. Welcome, Emma Heming. Willis. >> It's nice to see you. >> to the tea house. >> Thank you for having me. >> My name is Emma Heming Willis and my. husband, Bruce Willis, was diagnosed. sorry with fronttoteoral dementia in the. fall of 2022. In 2023, Emma Heming. Willis and her family released a. statement announcing her husband, one of.

America's favorite action heroes and. adored Hollywood movie star Bruce. Willis, was diagnosed with. fronttotemporal dementia or FTD. >> FTD is a very difficult and unkind. diagnosis. Doctors say FTD is a rare type of. dementia that affects the frontal and. temporal loes of the brain and can. slowly change a person's cognitive. abilities, their behavior, or their. ability to speak. The Willis family. statement read, "Challenges with.

communication are just one symptom of. the disease Bruce faces. >> Our family is in a unique position to. raise awareness, and I knew that we. needed to be a part of the long-term. solution.". Emma is a former model and actress, now. a wife, mother, author, and advocate. She has written a new book sharing her. experiences as her husband Bruce's. caregiver. It's called The Unexpected. Journey: Finding Strength, Hope, and. Yourself on the Caregiving Path. Emma.

begins the book with a heartfelt message. for readers and caregivers. She says, "My hope is that this book can be a. lifeline for you. And I know so many of. you who are listening and watching us. today are caregivers who need a. lifeline. I really appreciate what you said. writing this book that it is the book. that you wish that someone had placed in. your hands as you were getting the. diagnosis for Bruce. And I want to talk.

about that day and the day after. But. first, I hope you don't mind if we start. with the part of the book where you. focus on your love story, how it all. started. >> Yeah. I mean, I met Bruce at our trainers, Gunnar. Peterson. Um, and you know, we our our. time started sort of overlapping and um. I got to know him and I got to see just. >> what a downto-earth, humble uh person he.

was. >> So, our relationship didn't really take. off until many years later, actually. Um. and then our paths crossed again. >> So that first meeting nothing happened. Then you met him years later and he. invited you to a weekend with his with. his family. >> Oh yeah. It wasn't a weekend. It was. come celebrate uh New Year's with us. >> Okay. Come celebrate New Year's. >> Yeah. At Turks and Caos. Come out for a.

week with my ex-wife, her husband at the. time, and my three daughters. And I was. like, whoa. >> Whoa. That's a lot. That's a lot. >> Um, and I said, "But thank you. Thank. you so much. Let's pick this up in the. new year." Yeah. >> And I'll see you, you know, back in New. York. Um, but he was very persistent. And my f a friend of mine, Ali, who was. with me, was like, "What are you doing?". You know, like, "We can change our. plans. He, you know, obviously int his. intentions are good. His ex-wife is.

there. The husband's his three children. are there. You know, go outside your. comfort zone a little bit." And I did. >> And you did? I did. >> And what did you discover on that trip? >> I discovered. what an incredible family man he was. I. >> You got to see him interact with his. daughters. >> with his daughters. I got to see him. inter, you know, the interaction between. him and Dei and the new husband and I. just thought like how modern and how.

great. Mhm. >> Um, and it really sort of just changed. my whole thinking of him and who he was. >> Yes. Yes. Yeah. And it's so interesting. because I was reading this and I was. sharing this with the producers. I said, you know, I I always felt that I was not. going to have children. >> So, I never looked at any man thinking, oh, he will be good, he will be a good. father or he will be good with children. But when you saw him with the children, you thought, "Oh, this is the kind of.

man I would want to have children with. or to be the father of my children.". >> Exactly. Right. It was like to see the. test run. And the test run was good. I. was like, I I could see myself with. someone like that. >> Bruce Willis is a father to five. daughters, Rumor, Scout, and Tula, with. actress Demi Moore, who we'll hear from. a little bit later. And he and Emma have. two girls, Mabel and Evelyn. And the. things that you you mentioned that. really made him even more attractive to.

you is that you felt that he was a. gentleman and that he was good with the. tip. I love a manous understands how to. tip. >> He's very generous. You know, Bruce. worked in the service industry prior to. being an actor. >> and he relied on those tips and you know. that's always sort of been embedded my. in my mind of always be generous. >> Always be generous. >> Always be generous. So he was a great. tipper. Um, and I and I I love I love. that about him, you know. >> And you all have now been married 16. years, and you have two daughters,

Mabel, who's 12, and Evelyn who's 10. >> So, they just had birthdays, 13 and 11. >> 13 and 11. Okay. >> Pre-teen and a teenager. >> So, what was he like um before the. illness as a husband and a father? >> I mean, as a husband, just. everything that I could have dreamed of. I mean, honestly, like Bruce. You know, I wanted the white picket. fence. I wanted um the two children.

That is was the dream. And Bruce really. gave that to me. He really did. >> And you know, as a father, just so fun. You know, if he was in. charge of those kids, they'd be sleeping. in, going to the beach, missing school, going to Disneyland. He was just a fun. guy. like you know his whole thing was. that he always put his children first. and with that like through that lens now. I that's that's how I navigate my world.

today. What would Bruce want? >> What would Bruce want? >> Yeah. >> What would he want for his daughters? >> So you write that before he was. diagnosed that you knew something was. off. And one of the reasons why I wanted. to talk to you is because I thought you. did such an excellent job actually as in. providing a toolkit for other. caregivers. It's not just your story, but it's what you learned as a result of. having to go through this this journey. that you're still on and being able to. offer what you've learned to other.

people, which is what you know the best. thing that you can you can do. My Angela. always says when you learn, teach. when. you get give and that's what you're. actually doing in the unexpected. journey. In chapter one of the. unexpected journey, Emma writes of. Bruce's symptoms. >> I can't pinpoint exactly when it. started. It's very gray. But at some. point, our relationship began to feel. off and there seemed to be a lot of. miscommunications between the two of us. I was often annoyed with Bruce. Chaos.

was building in our home and life felt. increasingly unmanageable. Over time, I began to suspect that the. issue wasn't Bruce's hearing or a rocky. patch in our marriage. And that instinct. made me realize that we should go to the. doctor. In simple terms, for Bruce, it. started with speech and spread. I. finally understood that those crazy. marital issues were not Bruce. Neither. were those off moments and subtle shifts.

in his personality. They were the result of his brain being. dismantled, taking part of the husband I. knew and loved with it. >> So, so this is to help those of you who. are going through it or will have to go. through it or who have experienced it. Um, as I said when I first met Emma. today that I think this is going to be. so liberating for so many people and at. some point you saw that his behavior. started to change but you didn't have a.

name for it or didn't know what to call. it. So tell us what you first started to. notice. >> I mean for me it's like it's very gray. and it is a hard question to even. answer. You know it's hard for me to. know where Bruce stopped and where his. disease started to kick in. >> Mhm. Um, >> but what did you start to notice? >> You know, for Bruce, it was language. >> It was language. >> Yeah. You know, he was diagnosed with. primary progressive aphasia, which is. also known as PPA. It's a subvariant of. FTD. >> So, for him, it was it was language. Um,

>> but also, you know, in our marriage, I. started realizing that like we weren't. aligning on things like we used to. >> Um, conversations that we had, he wasn't. recalling. Um, and. our values just didn't seem to be. matching anymore. >> Can you give us an example in in of the. language issue? >> Oh, I mean, you know, so Bruce had a. stutter when he was a child, like a. severe stutter, and when he went to. college, um, he met someone that helped.

him sort of get a handle, quote unquote, on his stutter. And that was to go into. a drama class. And what he realized is. that when he memorized these scripts. that he could recite them without. stuttering. >> Um, so Bruce has been able he, you know, I think over the years from college and. on, he has always been a person that. stuttered. Um, he's just known how to. handle the stutter. What I noticed, um,

was that his stutter started coming back. and I just thought that was interesting. Um, but never in a million years would I. think that that was a symptom. >> of a young onset dementia. >> And so at one point you even thought, gosh, are we losing. connection as a husband and wife? I. mean, should I think did you ever think. about divorce? >> I 100% thought about divorce. Yes. Um. because I I just didn't understand how.

our relationship was so we were so. connected. We were so imshed and yet all. of a sudden things just started falling. apart. And. >> would you argue more? Would you. >> Yeah. >> Have misunderstandings? >> Yeah. I was just annoyed with him. I. just didn't understand what was. happening. I didn't understand the. conversations that we were having. >> Um and we just weren't aligned and I. didn't know why. >> And he wasn't raising his hand about. anything. And um I did contemplate.

divorce because I just didn't. >> because how long had this gone on, Emma? >> Oh my goodness. You know, a couple of. years, I would say. >> Really? Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. >> But again, I would have never known that. that was a young onset dementia that was. on the table. So, when did you finally. when when did you you or he decide let's. go get a diagnosis or something is so. off that we now need to get this.

checked? >> I just knew something was something. wasn't right. Something wasn't right. I. knew it was time that I needed to raise. my hand and try and be the best advocate. I could for my husband and um and speak. to his doctor. >> Okay. I think it's important that you. share what you said or how you said it. or how you prepared yourself to say it. because listen, I I know how hard it was. for me to have to have the conversation. with my father about you can no longer. drive.

>> I'm taking the keys away. >> Yeah. and getting everybody else in the. family to go along with that. conversation because they were like, "No, well, he can just still drive to. the barber shop cuz my father owned a. barber shop and it's just down the. street or he can go to the I go, I'm not. going to put myself in a position so. that he hurts himself or hurt somebody. else and I have to have everybody else. on board with it." But it was a very. challenging conversation for something. as simple as that, you know, for which. most people are going to have to go. through at some point.

>> Yeah. I mean it I. >> So how did you have the conversation? >> It was a lot of smoke and mirrors. It. was a lot of smoke and mirrors that I. had to do in order to get Bruce to the. doctor and it was a conversation that I. had with a do his doctor and that I I. needed help to, you know, get the scans. and um and we were able we were able to. do that. You know, I can't remember what. the conversations were. >> I I am in my caregiving I'm in the. caregiving midst of it all. So there's a.

lot everything is a little blurry around. that time. Um but I was able to have. that conversation with him. I was able. to have the conversation with the doctor. and we were able to um get scans that. showed that Bruce's brain was changing. >> And when they came back with the. diagnosis of fronttotemporal. >> that was dementia. >> Yeah. That was a year later. So the. first diagnosis we had was aphasia. Mhm. >> But what we didn't realize that was just. a symptom of the disease. We didn't have.

a diagnosis yet. >> Um, >> what I learned from reading your book is. is that everybody wants to label. everything Alzheimer's, but there are. many different forms of dementia. Alzheimer's is just one of them. >> That's right. >> So, one of the experts I have in my. book, Ta Snow, I, you know, she says. there's 120 different types of dementia. And when people hear dementia, they. automatically think Alzheimer's. But. fronttotemporal dementia affects a. different part of the brain and it's not. about memory. Um Alzheimer's is memory.

but fronttotemporal dementia it affects. you know behavior and like for Bruce it. was language. >> So we you know got the diagnosis. and um I wasn't prepared for for that. diagnosis. >> What help or information were you given. then. >> from the doctor? >> Yeah. >> Uh not much. Yeah. You know, I mean, I. >> I I heard you left with a little. pamphlet. >> Yeah. No, I mean, we we got the. diagnosis. >> Um I heard the diagnosis and then I.

remember just feeling tingles all over. my body. It was like a rug had been. pulled from underneath me. I. >> You know what fronttotemporal dementia. was? >> I had heard about it. I had heard about. it. Um, my mother's friend had frontal. temporal dementia. So, I remembered it. in my teenage years. >> and I remember it sounding horrific. >> Um, and throughout the years I had heard. about different forms of dementia and. FTD always sort of kind of came up.

>> And I remember a neurologist saying, "But yeah, boy, that's the one you don't. want. You don't want that one." So that. day when we went in for our diagnosis. appointment, I was not prepared for that FTD. diagnosis. Um, and yeah, I just remember seeing the. doctor's mouth move. >> You write that it was your worst. nightmare come true. >> It was my worst nightmare. Um, I still. can't believe it. I still can't believe.

it. Mhm. >> So yeah, you know, that day came, he. gave us a diagnosis and, you know, we. walked out of there with no direction, no treatment, no hope, just a pamphlet. and a check back in in a couple months. and that was it. >> Did they tell you that it's going to get. worse, that it's going to deteriorate? >> I'm sure he probably said all of that. >> Yeah, cuz you're you're. >> I am not in my body. Did at the time.

Bruce understand the diagnosis? Did he. under did he understand what was. happening? >> Um I don't think so. >> really. I don't think so. I think um. that's kind of one of the the blessings. of FTD is that sometimes people just are. not able to understand understand like. he was in his disease of PPA. communication and hearing the words you. know I don't think it I don't think it. landed. >> Yeah. >> And I'm grateful for that to be quite.

frank. >> that he and even now still he doesn't. understand the depth of what has. happened or what is going to continue to. happen. >> No. this is a progressive disease and um. no. >> he doesn't how is he now can you tell us. >> I think all things considering I think. he's I think he's okay. um. you know again it's like FTD is is just. an unkind.

cruel disease. >> it means your brain is actually dying. >> your brain is degenerating it's it's. dying Um, and to have to witness it is. traumatic. >> Mhm. >> It's traumatic. >> And so you describe living with this. disease. and the grief that comes with it as. death before dying. How have you learned. to live with this kind of prolonged.

grief? >> Um, you just do. you I I it is right. next to me all the time. And what I have. learned about grief and this process is. that, you know, I need to. it's important for me to be able to talk. about it. >> It's important for me to be able to. connect with my community about it. I. really believe in talk therapy. That has. been very helpful for me. Um.

so that I can process it. But the grief. is very much there all the time. Um I'm. always thinking about it. I'm always. thinking about him. >> and and just. how awful this is for him. >> So it degenerates and to the point where. is he's he is he no longer able to take. care of himself. He's no longer able to. function in a. >> that that is the disease. >> That is the disease.

>> That is the disease. the disease. progresses. um where you will no longer be able to. care for yourself. >> Mhm. >> Like many forms of dementia, right? I. mean, it is a progressive disease. >> Yes. >> Um until there is. >> a treatment, this disease will always. win and it it it is progressive. >> And I think that was something that was. really important for me to learn. >> is that. >> it's not going to get better. and what. can I do to add that support around me?

>> Okay. So, you were told by a doctor that. caregivers actually die at a rate of. 63%. I was so shocked for that number. Higher. than people their same age who are not. caregivers. That's number one. That's. alarming to say the least. Did the. doctor explain why? >> Because caregivers don't have time to. care for themselves, right? They are. looking after their person. They are. handling the medications, the doctor's.

appointments, the household, if they. have young children, their parenting. They are not thinking about themselves. in any way. And when I had learned that. statistic, um Bruce's neurologist had. pointed that out to me, it was alarming. It is what woke me up. And I thought to. myself, well, I not going to have my. children lose both of their parents, >> you know, I need to I need to figure out. what to do next. >> Okay. And so what about the telling of.

the friends? How did you I mean the. difference you do state in the book that. the only difference between you and. everyone else who's going through this. is that you are with a person who is you. know well known was is a celebrity in. the world but when it comes to the. actual caregiving and all the things. that come with this disease there is no. difference between you and anybody else. except that people know his name and we. don't know the names of all the other. people. >> No absolutely it levels the playing. field. >> It levels the playing field. It does.

And so when you start to tell other. people, I love the point that you made. in the book is that people need to learn. what it is themselves. It's not up to. you to have to explain to everybody what. it is and that it would be appreciated. on the part of the caregiver if people. will get their own information. >> 100%. And that's what I learned, right? I was the one giving out all the. information all the time. And it's like. it's even hard for me to explain what. FTD, you know, people still look at me. like, "What are you even saying?". >> Yes. Um, and I spent so much time trying.

to explain what it is and trying to, you. know, have people try and understand it. And what. >> did you even give them the pamphlets? >> Well, yeah. You know, I'd print stuff. out to like have them read, but then. that's what I, you know, learned is. that, you know, your friends and family. need to educate themselves. I think it's. really important so that they can. understand how they can best show up for. you. Mhm. >> And another point that you made that I. really appreciated in the book uh is. that people always say call me if you. need anything or let me know if you need.

anything. And you were saying instead of. saying let me know if you need anything. >> just do the thing. >> Just do the thing. >> Do the thing. >> Tell me what you can do. >> Yes. >> You know or here is you know what I. would love for caregivers to do. It. takes a little bit of busy work for them. but you know what are the things that. you do in a week? you know what that. that you don't need to do that you could. just allocate for some to some for. someone else to do it. You know, if it's. picking up the medication, if it's going. to the grocery store, if it's taking my.

car to get the tank filled, you know, here is a list of the things that I. would love for you to help. >> or somebody to help me with. Yes. >> Someone. Yes. >> Because caregivers are doing all of this. on their own and they're just hearing. these things of just, oh, let me know. Let me know. caregivers aren't thinking. of like they're just they're too wrapped. up. They're too wrapped up. And I think. it's really important that friends and. family step in. >> Yes. I I I uh appreciated the moment.

that you share when your stepdaughter. scout came to you and said, "I'm more. worried about you than I am about dad. because you were so run down from not. taking care of yourself." And those of. you who are listening who are. caregivers, God may, you know, may God. and all the angels bless you because. until you've done it, nobody really. understands what it is. >> No, they don't. They think um they think. it's something different and that Yeah. So, yeah, that was another wakeup call.

for me. And you know, if Scout's telling. me that she's more worried about me than. her own father, I was like, "Oh my. goodness, I am losing it. I need to get. myself together." But I didn't. I didn't know how to ask for help. I. didn't know how to raise my hand. I. didn't know that you could. >> And so that is what the unexpected. journey, a great deal of it is about is. about being first of all open to asking. for help, but most importantly knowing. you're not going to get through it. alone. >> You can't get through it alone.

>> You can't get through it alone. >> It's not a solo. So start looking for. ways that you can bring more help into. your life space. I mean obviously you. and Bruce and your family have access to. be able to have you know full-on. healthcare. A lot of people don't but. there are so many online organizations. >> Yeah. I mean, um, it is so important to. ask for help and it is so important to. receive the help and.

>> and I know people are saying, "Who do I. ask? I don't I don't know who to ask.". >> Oh, like friends and family. Yeah, I. know. I mean, and that's that's the. thing, right? Like I I knew I could ask, but I didn't know that I was allowed to. ask. And I think that caregivers think. they're being a burden or that it's. their duty as a spouse to care for their. person. and no one's going to look after. them better than you can. And I and I. believe that. But it's not sustainable. Like that's that's the thing. And in.

order this journey is long. >> Yeah. >> And in order to sustain that journey, you need you need to find the support. >> You need to bring that in. >> or. you're going to become a statistic. >> You write that once you opened yourself. up to getting help, it changed. everything. Can you describe your. situation before and your situation now? >> Yeah, before, you know, I was trying to. be a parent. I'm trying to care for my.

husband. I'm trying to keep things very. quiet. Um. because I didn't want the news to get. out about my husband before we were. ready to share. And I was just trying to control all of. it. And then, you know, I started to. realize I had a neurologist that said, you know, Emma, it's time. You have. resources that people don't. You can get. help. You can get formal care. And I. really sort of dug my heels in on that. thinking like, "No, I can't do that.

Like, I don't that's not going to fly.". Um, >> why? Cuz you thought you had to do it. yourself. >> I thought that I had to do it. You know, I think society has told me that like. it's on me. like you're a bad person if. you you bring in help. >> I'm a bad person. I am not fulfilling my. duties as a wife if I bring someone in. But I knew that I also needed to be a. parent and I wasn't able to show up for. my kids like I wanted to. Um and I did. I ended up bringing someone in and.

you know it really it changed it changed. everything for the better. >> It changed the way the rest of the. family could also operate. Totally. And. it also got me back into my original. role of being his wife, you know, and. that has been the biggest blessing is. that, you know, there's no one else can. sit with your person and hold their hand. and look at photos and, you know, listen. to music and have that deep loving.

connection. Um, and and I am so grateful. that I am back to that because when I. was a caregiver, >> I was not that. I was up. I was annoyed. I was angry. I was resentful. I was sad. You I was out of my mind. >> You were sad because there's a thing. that you talked about in the book. Uh. you discussed something you call. ambiguous loss. On page 101, you write. in chapter one. I shared all the things. I loved about Bruce in the past tense. Even though he's still right in front of.

me, I still love so much about him as he. is today. But those things that. disappeared without me realizing are at. the core of ambiguous loss. the person. is right in front of you, but they don't. represent who they were. And I thought. it was so great because. it lets people know that number one, that's a real thing and that's a real. feeling. So what is his state now? He's. still So it's not like the kind of. dementia where he doesn't recognize his. family. He still recognizes you.

>> and recognizes his daughters. >> and you're able are you able to have a. conversation? That is what PPA takes. from you is your is your language. >> Yeah. You you So you don't have the. ability to speak. Okay. >> So he doesn't speak at all. >> Um I mean he speaks but I don't know. that it really tracks. >> Yeah. That they're real words. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> I don't think it tracks. >> Yeah. And so uh one of the things I. remember you writing in the you you you.

said that he's actually in a in a. blissful state. Yeah. Yeah. Bruce isn't. thinking about what happened yesterday. or what's happening right now or. tomorrow, you know. He is. >> or what he has to do or what's on the. schedule or. >> he is so present. He is in the here and. now. And it's actually really beautiful. to witness. You know, I think um I don't. like it. I don't love it. But you know, he is he is in his body. He is um he is.

present in his body and he's not. thinking about what's to come. M. >> you know I am. >> you are. >> I'm thinking about that all the time. >> Okay. Um you write on page 97 that your. stepdaughter scouted said grief is the. price we pay for loving someone so. deeply. >> And I think it's really. profound that you are saying that you. are in the you're in the grieving. process now. I mean, I know someone who.

who who cared for someone for four years. and then they were afraid to after the. person died go on with their life and uh. their therapist said to them, "But. you've already been grieving for the. past four years.". >> Yeah. I've been grieving for a long. time, for a very long time. Um. it's not linear. You know, there's some. days that I'm feeling okay and other. days that I'm not, but it's a long it's. a it's a long process and it's very hard. to lose um someone right in front of.

your eyes. >> Can you explain ambiguous loss? >> Um it was coined by Dr. Pauline Boss. >> and it means that the person is um. physically in front of you but. psychologically not there. So that is a. term that she's coined and it explains. exactly what happens to people when they. and and their loved ones when they're. experiencing dementia. Your person is. physically in front of you but not. psychologically there.

>> Yeah. And I think it's also important. too what what what your book reminded me. is that people are so judgmental who are. not in situations and they say things. like, "Well, how can you say you're. grieving him when he's still here? At. least he's alive. You have him." You. know, and that makes you feel what? >> That makes me feel worse. It makes me. feel like I'm not seen um dismissed. You. know, a a lot of people have opinions. without an experience and that's what I. have seen and learned and especially.

because you know we have come out as we. have. >> you know um I'm sure a lot of people. will have opinions about this interview. and this book and because they don't. have the experience. >> Mhm. Aren't you glad you did come out. though? Yeah, I did. Yeah, >> because trying to keep it a secret and. whatever people would then say not. actually knowing the truth. Isn't it. better to have the truth out? >> Uh, yes, it was. Um, for us it was. really important to share what Bruce.

had, what he was experiencing because I. was so isolated and I wasn't putting the. help and support we needed around our. family because I was so scared that I. don't know someone would talk, someone. would, you know, that's I was so worried. about that. >> So it came to a point where it was like. nope, we this is a must. We need to come. out. Um, I also, you know, I didn't want. my kids to think that we needed to talk.

about their dad's diagnosis in hush. tones. Like that wasn't that wasn't. gonna happen. >> Um, I wanted to remove the stigma around. it. >> and we were going to talk about this. diagnosis and we were the kids were. going to see that like the reach that. their father has um he is so beloved. >> and outpouring of affection. >> We were going to go out and we were. going to talk about it and raise. awareness. M. >> I know that you are aware that my team. told you that we spoke to Jimmy Moore.

>> recently. >> Yeah. >> On this podcast and had the chance to. ask her a few questions about the book. and the family's experience and this is. what she said. >> Oh, great. >> What has it been like for you to watch. Emma navigate becoming a caregiver to. Bruce? There is no road mapap for how to deal. with this and you know the the the. and obviously being the ex-wife even. though our family is very um connected.

is a is is an interesting position and. and so much fell on Emma to really. figure this whole thing out and um the. most beautiful thing and She talks about. this in the book was recognizing the. importance for caregivers that they have. to take care of themselves. >> and that if they don't put that time. into making sure that they're okay that. they then can't show up for anyone else.

And you know I I have so much compassion. for Emma in this being a young woman. There's no way that anybody could have. anticipated, you know, where this was going to go. And I really think she's done a. masterful job. She has been so dedicated. to, you know, forging the right path. She's had, you know, equal amounts of. fear and strength or and courage um in.

navigating this. And um and I'm really, you know, I think that this book is. going to really be very helpful for a. lot of people who are walking through. this, >> especially caregivers. You're right. Especially caregivers. How has it been. for you personally to watch this moment, someone you have shared, you know, much. of your life with and children with, um. suffer from this disease. >> I find it it's difficult. It's hard to.

see somebody who was so, you know, vibrant and strong and so directed um uh. shift into this this other parts of. themsel. But you know, my particular. perspective is one I really always say. it's so important just to meet them. where they're at. >> Yeah. don't have an expectation of them. needing to be who they were or who you. want them to be. And when you do that, I.

find that there is an incredible. sweetness and something that's soft and. tender and loving. And perhaps it is. more um. uh playful and childlike in certain. sense because of, you know, how much. more uh caretaking they need. Um, and really the the the the the. most important place for me is showing.

up in being present. Just being present. Um, and because if you project where. it's going, it only creates anxiety. If. you replay where it was and what you've. lost, it only creates, you know, an. anxiety and and and grief. And so when. you stay present, there is so much and. there's still so much of him there. And. it may not always be verbal, but it is. it is it is beautiful given the givens.

>> Thanks, Demi. Again, thanks. Thanks. Yeah. >> Beautiful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um but she's she's right. It's. about seeing there is beauty there, right? As hard as it is to lose someone. that we love, um, we are able to tap. into what what is. >> I want to go back to this point because. one of the main reasons I wanted to talk. to Emma today is for those of you who. are going through it. I want those of. you who are caregivers to feel a sense. of. validation.

in knowing that you're not alone. Number. one, and the other thing is to. understand so fully that you can't get. through it alone. You have to get help. So, can you tell us again after you what. the process of getting help was for you. and what that looked like in your life? The process was realizing that I. wasn't being the best parent I could be. I wasn't being the best caregiver I. could be to Bruce. I was run down. Um,

it was realizing that I needed I needed. help, but I also needed someone to give. me permission. >> And Bruce's neurologist gave me. permission to think and consider help. And I and I hope that caregivers. get that in this book. Yeah. >> That they can that they understand that. you don't have to do this alone. You. shouldn't have to do this alone. I think. if you get this book, read this book,

that's what you will get. Cuz that's. what I came away with. Wow. The first. thing to do is to get yourself help. And. no matter where you are in the process, you've probably already waited too long. to actually get help. >> And that's what all the experts say. >> Yeah. >> People wait too long to bring in help. Um way too long. And and that that. narrative needs to shift. And we need to. be given permission that it's okay. We're not a failure. It's important to. ask for help. It's not your burden to. have to bear alone. And I think what you.

shared earlier, Emma, I mean, about. people wanting to do something but not. knowing what to do. Look at your life. and see what are the things that need to. be done. Whether it's picking up. groceries, whether it's going to the. pharmacy, all the things, >> all the things that that that that are. needed. So, when you offer yourself and. help to someone, I remember this a long. time ago. Uh, Maria Shrivever's mother. was uh in the hospital and had been in. the hospital for a long time and I did. the thing that you say do not do. I was. like, "Well, if you need any help, let.

me know." And Maria said, "Don't ask me. what you can do to help me. Just help. me. Just show up. >> Just show up. The thing to do is to just. show up." And I learned from that that. even if you just go and sit with. someone, >> oh my goodness, >> just to be there with someone. >> Yes. Not knowing what to say, not. knowing what it is I can do, just. showing up makes a difference. >> The journey is so isolating and we. isolate ourselves and connection is so.

important. You know, finding your. friends, finding your family, but also. as a caregiver, finding your community. You know, who are your people that. understand you? >> And it's so much easier to find a. community now because for your specific. ailment or disease, there's an online. resource for it. It's very important to. get a diagnosis. I think that is key in. all of this. >> It's key because as you'll see when you. read the unexpected journey, not all. dementias are the same. >> Not all dementias are the same. So, not. all support groups are going to be the. same. >> And not all support groups are the same.

>> So, it's important to find the the. association that is associated to the. disease that your loved one is. experiencing. >> Um, and that way, you know, for me, it's. the association of fronttotemporal. degeneration. They have been a lifeline. for me. you know, I they've connected me. with resources. Um, you know, they've. connected me with other caregivers. because FTD strikes young and, you know, usually these families have young. children and, um, so it's been beautiful.

like to be able to have that connection, to be able to sit down across from. someone and just they get you, they see. you, they understand it. You don't have. to explain it, overexlain it. Um, I it's. very important to find your community. Um, that has been a lifeline for me. >> Speaking of explaining and. overexplaining, I think you do a great. job of breaking down in this book how to. talk to your children and you talk to. different You talk to your children. depending on what ages they are, right?

What you say to a 5-year-old, you don't. say necessarily. use the same language you be using with. a 10-year-old. And 14 and up is. something very different. >> Yeah. And I didn't know that. I mean, that's why I brought specialists in to. sort of help me navigate that, you know. >> And you interviewed and talked to over. 25 experts, I heard writing this book. >> I did. Yeah. And these were all people. that sort of, you know, helped me. And I. gathered all this information to be able. to share with the next caregiver. And, you know, for our children, Mabel and. Evelyn were eight and 10 when Bruce was. diagnosed. So, you know, they were very.

young. Um, and what I learned is that, you know, we we I told them about the. disease. Um, and then just gave them. just bite-size information that was. right, that was age appropriate for. them. >> And if they wanted to know more. information, then I would give them more. information. >> Um, >> and they couldn't pronounce it, so they. called it fantastic turtles dancing. >> That's right. Yeah. FTD. >> FTD. Yeah. >> And, you know, we had this vision of. like, oh, these fantastic turtles.

dancing in their dad's head. and you. know it was sweet and funny and. >> um. >> but yeah so it's important that what. I've told them that if anything changes. with their dad and his progression I'll. let them know you know I I don't like to. give them too much information but it's. important to communicate I communicate. with my kids a lot. >> and I'm very honest with them um you. know you think you want to you want to.

protect your kids so is the way this. disease works that you have periods of. where things seemingly are okay for a. while and then there's another drop or. decline and something else deteriorates. other. >> absolutely I think anyone going through. dementia understands that like you have. times where things are very stable and. then the next shoe drops and then you. have to. figure it out what to do how to support. and you know we're really in we're in.

one of those phases is right now. Um, where things have been stable for a. really long time and now it's just. there's been a subtle shift and I'm out. of my mind because of it. And that's why. I'm so happy I have this book because I. go back to the book and be like, what. what do I do when I'm out of my mind? Oh. yes, these are my tools. These are the. resources that I can go back to. >> Um, you know, I wrote that book for the. next caregiver, but I am a caregiver and. I am a person that needs that book and. and I need the reminders. So, um, yeah,

I'm a little disconnected from my body. and my brain right now because even. though I'm sitting here, my mind is with. with Bruce and how he's doing. >> Understandable. That's understandable. Some of our podcast listeners wanted to. talk with you. Brenda joins us from. Colorado and her husband Kevin was uh. diagnosed with frontto temporal dementia. just one year ago. Correct. >> And. >> that is correct. Yeah, you are now his.

primary caregiver. >> I am uh we are. exactly like Emma said, we're heading. into a phase where I'm going to need a. little more help. My husband actually. has the behavioral variant of frontal. temporal dementia and uh it started. showing up in his work in about 2020. Uh. he was a country club manager, very. buttoned up, professional, amazing. leader and he started blowing off.

meetings and his behavior changed. dramatically. But it wasn't all at once. I thought uh like his humor became kind. of runchy and inappropriate. He was. missing his own meetings. Um he got. feedback from his board and didn't. really care. uh he wasn't uh you know. working on himself like he normally. would. Um he was eventually terminated. and uh then we got the diagnosis of mild.

cognitive decline which I think is. pretty common but I even knew at that. neurologist appointment that it was not. mild. Uh, and then he went to drive a school. bus, which was kind of his dream, his. retirement dream, even though he was not. supposed to retire yet. Um, and a year. later, uh, I attended a meeting with him. because I could tell things were not. good and he was fired for a whole list.

of grievances. He was combative, which. is he's never had a combative day in his. entire life. He was using profanity. He. was late for every route. It was just. literally unbelievable. And I gave that. letter to our neurologist who did. another MRI. His first MRI was clear. And then two years later, another MRI. did show deterioration in the executive. functioning and they diagnosed him as uh.

BV FTD. >> So that's the behavioral portion, the. behavioral portion. >> And how is he now? Well, uh, he I always say he's 20% still. my husband. He's 80% an alien. He has a very different sense of humor. Part of the behavioral variant is they. lose their empathy. So, you can't if you. tell him your problem or our son would.

who's 27 would like say a work problem, he would make jokes about it. and he's. lost his his empathy. His um uh eating. behavior has changed dramatically. He's. obsessed with carbs, which is very. common for that, you know, M&M's and all. kinds of stuff. Uh and you can't really. He has a kind of a hair trigger temper. now. Uh I've learned very quickly to. work around that and not trigger. Um but. otherwise, he thinks he's retired and.

he's happy. Um, much of what Emma said. validated me. I feel seen and heard and. I'm incredibly grateful. Um, the question I have for Emma is how. do you deal with the loneliness. of like I've never been lonely a day in. my life, but I am lonely now because you. know, just like you explained, he's. there but not there. >> My partner, but not. Mhm.

>> How do I deal with the loneliness? You. know, um I think where I am lucky is. that I have young children and I am. always busy with them. um I am parenting, I am caregiving, I. you know I am not sometimes connected to. my body so that I don't have to feel. those feelings. you know um the loneliness.

it's the it's there and and and I will. say that. I have habituated to it. I have gotten. used to it. Um I I I know that's not an. answer that you want to hear, but what I. will say the importance is again finding. your people, finding your community, um you know, so that you can talk about. these things and that you're not just. ruminating on it. That I think it's so.

important to just vocalize these. feelings and these emotions. Um. because you will meet other people that. are like, "Yes, I am lonely, too." You. know, I'm sometimes just stuff my. feelings. That's not healthy. I know. that. >> Um. but I think it's really important to be. able to verbalize. As I tell my. children, better out than in. It is so. important to talk about your feelings. and be heard and be validated about your.

feelings. So right now, Brenda, you are. the are you said you were the primary. caregiver. Do you have any help at all? >> Well, um he can do a lot on his own like. dishes and he watches TV. Um, but I do. need to come to the office and so, um, next week I just interviewed caregivers. and I found an agency that is going to. send a mail because, um, like I said, Kevin has some inappropriate humor.

>> Um, and that person is going to take him. to Botanic Gardens because I just feel. like he's deteriorating. because I'm not there during the day at. least four days a week. And so, um, and. he's starting to make some bad. decisions. The oven, undercooking food, and, um, and so I think, >> can I just stop you for a moment? Can I. stop every There's an example you use in. the book about I don't remember who said. it about could you leave your loved one.

alone in the house if there was a fire, would they be able to get out? Isn't Do. you remember writing that? >> Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, those are. the things that you have to think about. It comes down to safety. >> Yeah. If he were left alone in the house. right now and there was a fire, would he. know what to do? >> I believe he would, but we are we are in. a place of progression right now. And so. I'm not going to take any chances. I. think we've been fine up until now, but. I'm just seeing some warning signs.

uh that we need. >> we need more help. Uh his buddies come. and get him and golf with him, which is. a whole a whole thing. Mhm. >> Uh very patient, wonderful guys. So he's. not alone 4 days a week. And I of. course, you know, try to he sleeps quite. a bit. He sleeps like sometimes 15. hours. >> Wow. >> And the neurologist said that's when the. brain cleanses itself and to let him do. that. And so um that reminds me of like.

when my baby was little, right? When. they're sleeping, you don't worry as. much. Mhm. >> I'm happy to hear that you have friends. that are taking your husband out to play. golf. I think that's beautiful. Um, and. I'm also happy to hear that you are. interviewing formal caregivers. >> And I I think with this disease, it's so. important to one, you have to get out of. the denial. You have to realize that. it's happening. You have to understand. that it is progressive and. >> you need to be a couple of steps ahead.

of it. And I think that's where I have. found a lot of comfort is to be a few. steps ahead, you know, to really educate. myself about the disease because. knowledge is a big stress reliever. >> Yeah. And when you find your people, as. you mentioned in the book, you find your. I think was it somebody named Fran? >> Franny. >> Fran Franny. There was uh a few steps. ahead of you, then that allows you to. know what's ahead and also to begin to. prepare yourself. Prepare yourself. Yes,

>> absolutely. And I just want to express. my gratitude obviously to Oprah and all. that you've given and to Emma for going. public because from the day you did I've. been tracking you and now I can just. read your book and I don't have to. Google you constantly. >> Yes. Um, but it has been a huge a huge. validation for me because it's not. Alzheimer's and God bless the people. that have to deal with Alzheimer's, but. it is different.

>> It's different. It strikes younger. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> thank you, Brenda. Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. So, Erica is joining us from. Texas. Erica was a guest on our podcast. with Estair uh Peril a while back. Erica, good to see you again. Hi. Good. to see you too. Thank you so much for. having me. >> You were wearing pink today. It was. green the last time. I remember you told. us that you are the caretaker for your. mother and so I asked the producers of. you could zoom in for this conversation.

How has being a caregiver impacted you? >> Oh my goodness. Um first of all, thank. you so much um Emma for sharing your. story. Um thank you Oprah. It has. impacted me in a way that I never could. have imagined. uh being an only child. years ago, my mother went through so. many different things and I used to say. to myself, "Oh my gosh, you know, I've. got to prepare myself financially, healthwise, because I got a feeling that. I'm going to have to take care of my mom.

one day." And she used to always say. that. She used to always say, "I'm. coming to live with you. Coming to live. with you guys." And I be like, "Oh, no, you're not." Because the relationship. was strange. It wasn't a good. relationship at all. And so I got a. phone call about eight years ago that my. mom's behavior was weird in another. state. I got in the car the next day and. drove and what I saw was shocking. I had. just spoken to her. She didn't recognize. me. She still had on her Sunday dress.

and it was Monday. Everything was. disheveled. Um rushed her to the. hospital and they said, "Your mom has. dementia." And I'm like, "Dementia? What. do you what do you mean? And two weeks. later, we had to figure out what to do. And they said she can't live alone. And. I turned to my husband and I said, I. don't know what to do. We were in the. middle of retiring, uh, still raising kids. As Emma was. saying, I had a son that I was. homeschooling and he was just getting. ready to go into the ninth grade and we.

had to bring her with us and it was a. nightmare. It was a nightmare. We had to. move her in. And so that same kind of. behavior that I experienced as a young. person, as a teen, it just seemed to. escalate in our home. So like Emma said, it was hard to tell where the where the. my mother. >> the disease. >> Exactly. I mean, she would say things. and they would be like, "Oh, that's the. disease." But I'm like, she said that to. me when I was 16 and it just became.

really really bad. And I I don't want I. don't know how to say this, but she's. very religious to the point that it's. it's kind of it makes it hard because. everything is about, you know, the de. she doesn't have dementia. God healed. her. Everybody else is just not. believing. She's healed. God brought her. here to, you know, be a blessing to me. and help me. I I literally just I didn't know what to.

do. I didn't know what to. >> And so what did you do? What did you do? >> I just took care of her. I just brought. her in, took her to the found doctors. like Emma found a neurologist, got testing, and they told me she had. Louis body dementia with mild. Parkinson's. To my surprise, they put. her on hospice in my home. So I had. nurses coming, chaplain coming, and I. was cooking for her. I was giving her. her medicine. All of this happened. within a month's time.

And that was eight years ago. And it was. so bad over about a year and a half. I. had to lie to get her out of my home. because it it literally almost broke me. My husband found me in the closet just. curled up. And he's like, "What's going. on?" I said, "I feel like my life is. over. I feel like I'm being at that. time." I said, "I feel like I'm being. punished." Because she was of the. mindset, you honor your mother. You. know, the Bible says, "Honor your mother. and you're not honoring me, and you got. to do this for me." And I I remember. driving her to from a doctor's.

appointment and I just could not figure. I said, "What is going on with you?" And. she just looked at me and she just. screamed, "You owe me." She said, "I've. done everything for you. I took care of. you as a child. Now you owe me." And I. went, "Oh, wow." And so it's been it's been. difficult, but she's she lives on her. own now. And as Emma said, if I didn't. have the resources to to help me. So, you moved her out of your home is what. you did. You moved her out of your home.

in order to save your own sanity. >> Yes. Save my marriage, my relationship. with my kids. Like Emma said, I I. stopped almost being a parent. I I it. was like, okay, I I hear you having. trouble in school, but wait a minute, I. got to take grandma to the doctor. And. it was just so much now, eight years. later, now we can have the conversation. And I just said, I'm I'm so sorry. It I. didn't know what to do, how to do it. And I did find groups uh I have. caregivers now that come they take her. to the doctor they take her to church.

they take her right now she's at a hair. appointment. >> but it's like when I talk to her. sometimes. >> it's it's me that should be doing that. and she says well you don't take me. anywhere and you're you're just not a. good daughter and it's just so hard to. you know to. >> are you letting that guilt get to you? I. I did I I did and thank God for my. husband and my adult kids now. They're. like, "Mom, you know, you've done. everything. There is nothing else." And. I think the biggest piece is, you know,

we talk about the old the generation now. that entitlement. It's like my question. is how do you reconcile when you have a. parent that feels entitled. >> and that's the part just the guilt of. okay, I'm doing this and she'll say, "Well, why didn't you take me to get my. hair done?" And I would say, "Well, mom, I had something going on." "Oh, what. about me?" It's always about you. And. it's so hard. It's like, "Okay, is that. the dementia? Is that my mom?". >> Yeah. It feels like whatever is going on. with the disease is exacerbated whatever. the relationship was before. So, Emma,

what do you want to say to Erica? >> I mean, I couldn't imagine what it would. be like to be caring for someone that. you have a complicated relationship. with, >> you know? I I I can't imagine what a. burden that must be for you. Um, I am I. am so I'm sorry. I am really sorry to. hear that and I. can hear the guilt and the trauma and. all of this that this has brought to. you. I think it's so.

um, you know, she's clearly in her. disease. I know that something that. helped me was also like learning and you. know it was learning to separate my. husband from his disease that you know. what he is doing or saying um is not. him. It is it is his disease and that. brought me some comfort. Um but I'm also. really happy to hear that you knew how. to care for yourself. You knew what. needed to be done. >> after being curled up in the closet. It.

took being curled up in the closet to. get there, but at least you got there. You got there. >> You're a mother and you're a mother. first, you know, and and um and and but. I'm I'm really happy to hear that you. you knew how to care for yourself and. and you did the right thing that was. right for you and your family. And I. think I think one of the things that you. make clear in uh the unexpected journey. is that a lot of people have this guilt. because perhaps maybe you had a loved.

one who said, you know, I never want to. be put in a home or I never want to be. sent away or I never wanted no or I. would never never do that. I think when. you you get to the point where there is. nothing else to be done then you have to. make that the decision that is the best. for yourself. And one of the things you. say in the book is that what people are. really saying is I don't want to be. abandoned. I don't want to be left. alone. I don't want to be forgotten. But. if the best care is putting your mother.

in a in a situation where she will have. other caretakers and you will be able to. carry on with other portions of your. life, then then you have done the best. you could do. because. >> you have done the best you could do. >> and her needs now are being met 100% of. the time. I mean I think people don't. understand that that our needs are are. are never met like our persons even when. we are caregiving if we are not we're. not qualified for this job sometimes the. disease goes beyond what we know how to.

care for and um you know you're just. thrust into this role and I I think that. now your mother's needs are being met so. that your needs could be met. >> and I think that One of the things that. you get when you read the unexpected. journey is even though there is deep. love and deep compassion and honor for. your loved one, it doesn't mean that you. have to sacrifice your entire life. That.

is not what is required in order to. carry on. I think you've you've helped a. lot of care. That's why I say I think. this is going to be so liberating for. caregivers because there are if if you. can get the help, you should get the. help. And the first thing you say over. and over and over in this book is that. get yourself the help. If there comes a. I mean. there will probably come a time when you. won't be able to do all the things that. you wanted to do for Bruce yourself and. you need other people. Have you brought.

in other people to help? >> Yeah. This disease takes a team and I. and you know I think that so many people. are doing this on their own and. >> even if that means him not living with. the rest of the family. This takes a. team. Sometimes it means that you have. to look at your house. You have to look. at is it safe for someone to be living. in this house? Is it safe for me and is. it safe for our children? Like you it is. a very personal decision and it comes. down to safety, you know. Um it comes.

down to making the right decision for. you and your family and for your person. Um. >> and you did that, Erica. >> That is what you did. >> I I had to. And it's it's so. interesting. My grandmother uh suffered. through dementia. She was in a nursing. home the last 10 years of her life and I. watched my mother run herself into the. ground just doing everything. And I. think part of that that's what she. expected me to do. >> But I looked at my body, my everything.

And then going through what I was going. through, my I was going to kill myself. And I just said I cannot do that. And. like she said, they need their mom. My. husband needs his wife. and I decided to. to do that so that I could live a. longer, productive, healthier life and. not ends up like my mom. >> Thank you. Thank you again. Thanks for. talking to us again. >> Thank you so much. Beautiful. Beautiful. >> Thank you. >> So, I've seen online that there is this. this this outpouring of love and support. from Bruce's from all of his devoted.

fans and they're all over the world. And. you write this about what you believe. his legacy will be. You say his legacy. will live on through our family and you. even say that even if he is known for. this disease that will be okay with you. >> Yeah. Just as you know, Lou Garrick's. disease is is known as ALS. I think if. FTD is known as the Bruce Willis. disease, I think that he would be okay. with that because I think that it puts a.

face to this disease, it will bring in, you know, more research, more funding. um for a disease that really we have we. have nothing. you know, people are. getting diagnosed too late to be able to. go into the trials that are available. >> So, you know, the awareness piece of. this is so important. Um, you know, I. learned from one of these uh one of the. experts in my book, Dr. Bruce Miller. that you know he's um his specialty is. FTD and he says you know when you notice.

someone in their 40s 50s and 60s when. they should be stable and in. participating in the world but if you. start noticing that they are not who. they used to be something is off that is. a change in the brain and that needs to. be looked at and I didn't know that. early on and I think the awareness piece. is so key because. um we want people to be diagnosed post. early so that they could receive the. right treatment so that families aren't.

broken up in the midst of it. >> The other thing you say is his legacy. will live on through our family, his. work in film and music and the millions. of lives he's touched. But I believe. he's leaving something even more. profound, something that will ripple far. beyond Hollywood. His journey is shaping. the conversation around FTD, dementia, and caregiving. Shifting the narrative. in ways I hope will soften the. experience for others walking this path.

That means you, Erica, and you, Brenda, and all of you who are listening to us. I know Bruce's legacy won't just be. about the art he created. It will be. about how he loved and how that love. carries on through us. Beautifully said. You co-founded the organization Make. Time Wellness. What is your most. important message to caretakers? >> That you've got to take care of your. health and you have to take care of your. brain. You know, your brain is such an.

important asset. Um, you know, I think. that when you see someone that you love. start losing parts of their brain, it it. really, you know, makes you sort of sit. up and think, okay, what can I do for. myself? um and you know taking care of. my brain uh then I'm looking after my. whole body um. we have to look after ourselves. We have. to put ourselves first um because if we. don't we will not be able to sustain.

this and we will not be able to show up. for the person that we love. >> Thank you. >> Thank you Oprah. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> Emma Heming Willis for sharing your. unexpected journey with us. The book, The Unexpected Journey, is available um. September 9th anywhere books are sold. And if you're a caretaker or you know. somebody who is, I'm telling you, when. you think, "Oh, what could I do for. them?" This would be the book to give to. a friend who is a caregiver. It's a. vital book to have on your nightstand.

and to share with others who are going. through it. My thanks to Brenda and. again to you Erica for sharing your own. caregiving experience and all of you who. are out there doing this daily feeling. unseen unvalidated know that you are not. alone and this book is a big validation. Thank you for taking the time to be with. us today. Go well. >> so much. Thank you. >> You can subscribe to the Ora podcast on. YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple. Podcast or wherever you listen. I'll see.

you next week. Thanks everybody.