Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond

Hi there everybody and thanks so much. for joining me here on the Oprah podcast. and for watching us on YouTube which is. the place to watch everything now I hear. uh billions of people uh all over the. world are watching so many things and. I'm so glad you've joined us here. Here's a question. Have you ever. wondered what happens after we die? I. think if you live long enough you. actually start asking yourself that. question. And I know we all have.

different beliefs on what lies beyond. And for some, they believe there is no. beyond. We're asking today, what if. science could help illuminate the. mystery? What if science could do that? Okay. So, I have always been fascinated. by near-death experiences. I did um more. than 20 episodes of the Oprah Winfrey. Show uh talking with people who had died. and come back to life to tell a story of.

an otherworldly experience. Well, my. guests this morning have either been. pronounced clinically dead or have. suffered severe trauma after being. revived. They tell incredible stories of. their near death experiences. Stories. they believe are proof of an afterlife. I was deeply impacted by every time I. heard these stories. And over the years, I noticed that there were so many. similarities in their stories that it. actually got me wondering, there must be.

something to this, right? So, I'm. excited to welcome Dr. Bruce Grayson to. the tea house. Dr. Dr. Bruce Grayson is. a psychiatrist, professor emmeritus at. the University of Virginia, and one of. the world's foremost experts on. near-death experiences, also known as. NDEs. For nearly 50 years, Dr. Grayson's. pioneering research has explored the. depths of our relationship with death, life, and our understanding of. consciousness. I've seen so many.

examples of people whose brains were. obviously not functioning well, if at. all, and yet they described their. consciousness as more vivid than ever. before. In 1981, he co-founded INS, the. International Association for Near-Death. Studies, a group dedicated to research. of this phenomena. He's identified many. universal experiences that surfaced. through countless stories from people. who were pronounced dead and came back. to life. I was told that it was my time. I had to go back to Earth. I had more. work to do. In his latest book, After, a.

doctor explores what near-death. experiences reveal about life and. beyond. Dr. Grayson suggests there's. more to the human mind's experience. beyond what we know here on earth. I. just almost felt this hand I felt like. it was the hand of Jesus and just being. like nope not yet not yet to hear this. voice say it's not yet time just blew my. mind because that's what I heard. And we. talked with Academy Award nominated. actor Jeremy Rener who shared details of. his near-death experience. I was dead on.

the ice cuz it took every effort, physical effort to squeeze out air to. suck air back in. And that's when I was. gone. It is a collective divinity of. love. It's love is the only thing that. you take with you when you die. First of all, welcome to the tea house. Thank you, Oprah. I'm delighted to be. here with you today. I'm so I love this. conversation. I love having this. conversation. How do you define a.

near-death experience? Near-death. experiences or NDEEs are profound things. that happen to many people when they. come close to dying or sometimes are. pronounced dead but then recover. And. they include what they're often. perceived as mystical or spiritual. experiences like leaving sense of. leaving your body uh seeing other. entities that may be deceased loved ones. or deities reviewing your life and. coming to some point of no return beyond. which you can't keep going and still. come back and then you do come back. Uh.

what what what struck me about uh the. indie experience of so many different. people you describe in your book is how. similar they all are. Yes. So, you know, I've talked to people who experienced. the whole tunnel, people who haven't. experienced the tunnel and the tunnel of. light, but what are the elements? And. it's not just about the white light. No, no. The common elements are the same. around the world with different. cultures. We can see the same features.

in ancient Greece and Rome accounts of. um of near-death experiences. They. include a sense of leaving the physical. body, being in a place of priests and. love and sense of well-being. Um, often. uh encountering other entities that they. may interpret as being deities or divine. beings or deceased loved ones. Uh, that. sometimes guide them through a life. review and at some point they come to a. decision to return to life or they're. sent back against their will to life. Well, we don't have an opposing opinion.

uh here today because we're going to. hear from people who've had this. experience, but I have done shows and. had multiple conversations where there. are people in your same field uh and. scientists who say that this is some. form of a hallucination based on. chemicals in the brain that's causing. these experiences. And I'm obviously. sure you've heard this too. You've had. to come up against this for many years. And what do you say about that? Well, I. understand it because I started from.

that perspective. I was raised in a. materialistic household and went through. traditional training in science and and. medical school where we were taught that. the mind is what the brain does and when. you die that's that's just it. Um, but. I've been a psychiatrist for half a. century now. I know what mental illness. is like. I know what hallucinations are. like and they're not at all like. near-death experiences. Tell us what got. you into this because there was a young. girl. Yes. Yeah. As I said, I went. through medical school uh with this. materialistic mindset. And one of my.

first weeks as a doctor, as a. psychiatrist, I was asked to see a. patient who overdosed in the emergency. room. When I went to see her, she was. unconscious. I could not arouse her, but. her roommate had brought her in and was. waiting down the hall to speak to me in. another room. So, I went down to speak. to the roommate and got information. about the patient. Mhm. Went back to see. the patient. She was still unconscious. So she was admitted to the intensive. care unit overnight. When I went to see. her the next morning as soon as she woke. up, I went to see her and introduced.

myself and she stopped me and said, "I. know who you are. I remember you from. last. night." That's kind of stunned me. So I. said, "You know, I thought you were out. cold when I saw you." And she said, "Well, I was, but I saw you talking to. my roommate Susan down the hall." And I. just got startled about it. I didn't. know what she was talking about. I. assumed someone's playing a trick on me. here. Mhm. But then she went on to tell. me about the conversation I had with her. roommate, what I said, what the roommate. answer, what we were wearing, to fine. details, and I didn't know how she could.

have known all this. Yeah. So that threw. you. It threw me. It I cuz nothing in. medical school had prepared you for. that. Not at all. Nothing in my life had. prepared me for this. Yeah. This is the. thing that I remember. She remember she. knew that you had a stain on your tie. Right. Right. And when I went to the. emergency room, it was covered up by my. white lab coat. I had opened it to talk. to the roommate and it was a very hot. night in late in Virginia and then I. closed it up again before I left. So no. one but the roommate had seen that spot. and somehow the patient who was.

unconscious the whole time knew about. it. So when you first started to talk. about this or had the courage to. actually mention you know things that. you had experienced with with patients. and knew uh were being awakened to NDEs. even when we weren't calling them that. you got a lot of crit criticism and. ostracism. Well, I I didn't I still do. to some extent, but I understand that. Um, you know, part of me is still. looking for that materialistic. explanation for it. But I've seen so.

many examples of people whose brains. were obviously not functioning well, if. at all, and yet they describe their. consciousness as more vivid than ever. before, and they have memories that were. sharper than memories of other events at. the same time in their life, decades. after the event. So that tells you what. that it is not a hallucination. is not. even a quote normal memory because. they're remembered so much more vividly. that there's something greater than the. brain that the mind is might be greater. than the brain. That's the implication.

Yes. Yes. That that when the mind is is. functioning very well, the brain is not. and there's no medical explanation for. how that can be. Okay. Many people. you've interviewed use similar phrases. like during this experience they knew. everything and were part of everything. that there was no time uh that the. experience was more real than anything. they knew to be real. There's also an. overpowering feeling from all the people.

that I read about in your book and also. in every experience I've encountered. interviewing people. There's this. overpowering similarity of people talk. about unconditional love, right? And. that e whether they're surrounded about. by by light or not, whether the light. becomes a religious figure for them or. not, that there is the overwhelming. sense of love and connectedness to. everything, right? And and I've heard. that from people. What do you make of. all those similarities? Well, I I think. they must be talking about something. that that's real because everyone has.

it. How they describe it is based on. what they're what they're familiar with, what what analogies they're familiar. with. Cuz they all say, "There isn't any. word to describe what happened to me. I. can't describe me. Love is not strong. enough word. God is not a strong enough. word." But I experienced this thing that. was just overwhelming for me. And I've. heard this from people who were not. religious at all. That's right. So have. I. So have I. And yet they say, "I I. can't deny this. This is more real to me. than talking to you right now. And this. is definitely what's going on." Well, it. does feel like a different realm, like.

it's a like it's not a part of, right? And and one of the first times I had a. conversation with somebody about it uh. was actually a gentleman that you talk. about in in the book after Tom. Sorry. And I when we were preparing for you to. come on the show, I mentioned to my. longtime producer Tara, I said, I. remember years ago, it was between 90. and 94. And the reason I remember it. because I was so struck by what he said.

and it changed me. It changed the way I. thought. So Tom Sawyer had had an. accident where a car had fallen on him. Yes. And I remember him being on the. show and saying that he used to be a. really cruel person and that or I. started the questions were like, "I. heard you used to be cruel." And he. goes, "Oh, that's that's pretty harsh.". But he used to be a really pretty cruel. person and was abusive to his. wife. And yet he in that near-death.

experience experienced everything he'd. ever done to his wife. Here's Tom. Sawyer. Remarkable things happened to. Tom Sawyer during a near fatal highway. accident where he was pinned under a. truck. I understand you felt every bit. of pain that you had ever caused to your. wife and you'd been pretty cruel to her. Yeah. Uh boy, that's pretty sharp. Yes, that's true. Um, in my life review, of. course, uh, the tunnel, the light at the. end of the tunnel, immersed with uh, a. connection to total knowledge and God's. unconditional love. Having said that, as.

part of my life review, uh, I know not. only was myself at any bit or time of. chronological age, but regarding any. inter relationship with the 31 years. that I've been with my wife Elaine, um, I experienced being her. I don't mean. like her or a movie, but I was her. psychology. I was her physical body. I. was as though I was not just in her. body, but I was her. So things such as. the uh verbal abuse, the physical pain,

the psychology, the sociology, all that. I was that. You know, if you don't need. much more of a lesson than total. knowledge, what does the human. experience, how does it compare to. whatever that other realm of knowing is. like? Well, goodness, I don't even know if. it's comparable. Uh, first of all, uh, the the form of communication is super. lumininal telepathic communication. In. other words, it requires no time, no. chronology, no anything. You're simply.

are whatever you are know totally as you. are a 100red years in time. simultaneously and you just kind of know. that. In other words, you experience it. firsthand. You are whatever it is you. think you are every inter relationship. with everything in the universe. Wow. This is 1994. I'm looking at the woman's. face behind like, whoa, what is he. saying? Um, have other people that you. have studied talked about the. similarities of reliving other people's.

experiences? The reason why that made. such an impression on me, I actually got. goosebumps when he said he felt. everything that he'd ever done. I. thought, "Oh, that makes sense. That is. complete karmic sense that the life. review would be that you feel everything. you've ever done." Yes. Yes. Yes. You. really feel things from other people's. perspective. And Tom talks in about. beating someone up when he was a. teenager and feeling it from that. person's point of view or doing.

something nasty to his grandmother and. felt it from her perspective. But I've. also heard from people that they. experienced not only what they were what. they were doing to other people, but. they experienced the other person's. emotions which made them more. compassionate. For example, as a woman, that's what he that's what he was saying. that I felt what my abuse to my wife. I. felt how she felt and therefore I come. back trying not to be that kind of. person. Yes. But they often feel things. that they didn't do but other people did. to them. For example, someone I knew was.

was a woman who had an abusive. childhood. And when she went back. through her life review, she experienced. her mother meeting her from the mother's. perspective and realized her mother was. trapped in this mode and she didn't know. how else to relate to her daughter. And. she came away feeling tremendous. compassion for her mother for the first. time in her life. M and Tom and this. woman, they all come back with this idea. that we're all the same, that there's no. barrier between me and you. And this. leads them basically to the golden rule, which is part of every religion we have.

on this planet. Yeah. That when you hurt. someone else, you're hurting yourself as. well. Yeah. Because many people that you have. studied have felt that connection to the. oneness of all that we read about that. all religions teach about. But somehow. when you go to the other side or go to. the other realm, you become a part of. that and you understand it differently. And that's why after is so profound. It's not just about the life after. death. It's about how you choose to live.

your life after death. That's right. Yes. Right. They come back totally. changed. For them, the golden rule is. not a guideline we're supposed to. follow. It's the law of the universe. that they've experienced. There's no. That's the ultimate rule. Yeah. Well, so. on New Year's Day of 2023, two-time. Oscar nominated actor Jeremy Rener was. pronounced. dead after a harrowing accident at his. home in Lake Tahoe. Jeremy joins us from. the set of his hit show, Mayor of.

Kingtown. Jeremy, I'm so glad to see. that you made it because I remember. hearing that that day and feeling, I. can't. believe that that had happened to you. So, you've been listening to us. Thanks. for joining us. What happened on that. snowy day in Lake Tahoe? That's a lot to ask. Good to be seen. Good to be heard. Um, that's for sure. I'm happy to be here with you. Uh, it's. been a minute. Um, yeah, it was a uh an.

incident really, not even an accident at. this point. Um, as it's been reduced to. Um but uh I could say the takeaway. moment is is really it's really quite a. quite a glory moment for me and my. family and uh and life. Um but the. semantics of it was a a snowcat um. incident and um we had terrible weather. and I was trying to clear the driveway. with my nephew and he was going to get. run over. I tried to jump back on the. machine to prevent the machine from.

running him over. It's a giant tank like. uh with metal tracks type of 15,000lb. machine. Um and I tried to jump on it to. stop it and I failed and got ran over. and crushed and broke 38 bones uh on my. face, my skull um all throughout my. entire body and then eyeball came out of. my head and all these type of things and. then I had to struggle to breathe for a. while and then uh stopped breathing. So. what happened after that? the big can of worms that got open. Um,

essentially, uh, I got tired, uh, in my. mind of because my lung, everything was. collapsed, my ribs and and all that sort. of thing. So, the physical Could you. move and did you have a sense of. awareness? Could you move? And did you I. never passed out at all. If I would have. passed out, I'd have been dead on the. ice, okay? Cuz it took every effort, physical effort to squeeze out air to. suck air back in. And I was suffocating. myself with my rib cage, my dislocated. shoulder and arms and everything falling. upon my pop lung and uh things like.

that. So I was really drowning. I was. drowning in my own from my rib cage and. my bones. My So my nephew was able to. like lift some of the bones off my. pressure off my lung as I was able to. breathe and I breathe as long as it was. like doing a a one- arm push-up just to. exhale then just inhale. Yeah. Exhale. So, I just got tired after like probably. 30. minutes. Um, and that's when I was gone. U, I had my neighbors there that came to.

help at my aid and um, it was too icy. for it took forever for the ambulance to. get there because the the road. conditions were awful. Um, and anyway, the passing for whether it be for 10. seconds or 10 minutes, it's all still. quite the same. I've never knew anything. about near death, by the way. I knew. nothing about it and everything you guys. are talking about I knew and I still. even after experiencing it and. explaining some of what I um felt and.

witnessed or was a part of is exactly. what you guys are telling me what the. stories you've heard. I mean it's almost. word for word what I said. So I've. written a book and I've said these exact. same phrases and it's my jaw is on the. floor. I'm astounded to to know that. this is really a thing. Oh, it's a real. thing. I've been talking about it for 30. years. It's a real thing. And I know now. you've written a memoir called um My. Next Breath. Perfect title based upon.

what you've described. On page 75, you. describe a part of your experience like. this. I could see my lifetime. I could. see everything all at once. It could. have been for 10 seconds. It could have. been for 5 minutes. It could have been. forever. Who knows how long? In that. death, there was no time, no time at. all. Yet, it was also all time and. forever. What were you seeing? And more. importantly, what were you. feeling? It's it's kind of none none of. those things. It's just that the word is.

is. You just are or is. It's all. everything all at once all encompassed. There is no time, place, or space. It. just it just is. It's the most. exhilarating piece. It just is. and. you're there. It's just these words are. so like cavemanlike that I'm saying, but. it that's just the way it is. It's not. it's not even like a conscious thought. thing. It's not you're you're removed of. the burdens of your earthly measures of. like gravity and tooth decay and all.

these type of things, right? You're. you're it's you're relieved of those. duties of that on on the spinning rock. you're out into into. this, you know, it's it's to me it's a. beautiful, beautiful, beautiful space. and um really really quite tragic that I. had to come back into a busted body. Well, we're glad you did cuz we get. there's my eyeball, my twisted legs. I'm. like, why' I come back? You know, um. yeah, and I know it's pretty pretty. amazing to me. It's it's what I would. define, you know, God to be or it's it's.

just what was the divinity of the. collective of love in the human. Did you. have any spiritual beliefs before? Did. you have any? Yeah. Well, my dad was a. theologist, so I studied all religions. growing up. Yeah. But I wasn't a part of. any of those religions. I became. educated to them all and the studying of. them all, even Eastern philosophies. And. I think they're all very fascinating and. interesting. Um it just for me. personally I I wasn't going down any of. those paths for me. Um I held my own. sort of spirituality but uh I just don't.

want anything to divide me from anybody. else. Yeah. Which I sometimes religions. can do. So I'm more um I I just I just. kind of hold that kind of kind of that. space under my own. But I really have a. definition of of God in in all religions. now. It's not some bearded man in the. sky. It's not this. It's not this. It's. to me it is a this collective divinity. of love. It's love is the only thing. that you take with you when you die. Wow. That's.

so not ex cannot exist. It it rides in. the coattails of love like everything. else does in life. Nothing else freaking. matters outside what you love. And love. unequivocally. It is per in perpetuity. Does not change. Wow. Love is the only. thing you take with you when you die. Only thing. The only thing. So I I I. read in an interview where you said that. the this incident muted all the white. noise in your life. What does that mean?

Well, it kind of comes from that because. I know what I take with me and what I. what I hold and cherish in value. So I. what I gave credence to prior I do not. at all. you have one iota, one care, one. even insecurity or like it's just say. something ridiculous like a bad review. or some this or just just the nonsense. of what we give credence to here on this. planet, man. It's just unless it's. unless it's in sub subservient to to to. love and kindness and thoughtfulness and.

the collectiveness of of who we are as. as humans and that I think humanity is. is closely related to what love is. I. think humanity is beautiful in love. I. think the human part of humanity gets a. little dodgy, right? We get into like. capitalism, all these other things and. and wars and all type of things, but I. think that the the basic pure fuel for. humanity is love. And I focus just on. things that fuel that and just don't. give credence to those that that are. that deviate from it. Well, as you as.

you've been listening to us, Jeremy, here with me is Dr. Grayson, who's been. studying near-death. experiences as a scientist for 45 years. So, when you were saying in the. beginning, you didn't even know there. was anything to this. He's been studying. it for 45 years and has talked to. hundreds and hundreds of people in the. field. Well, for I mean, all that he was. saying prior to to me even coming on was. was just it blows my mind. It's that. there's so many similarities. You could. probably keep telling me more.

similarities that you found from talking. to so many people and I'll probably pick. out eight of those 10 that are like. that's exactly what I would say almost. word for word like it's scripted and. like I don't know if I have a question. for you per se except you could probably. maybe read your. book you know it's it to me it all it. really does though it it just feels um. maybe even more confirmations opra an. affirmation. out of out of information is the.

confirmations of what I learned post the. instant. I I also wanted to ask you. this. Uh you were just saying that you. realize what matters and what doesn't. matter and that you know bad reviews or. whatever and you know I I just consider. how you know. devastating and demolishing to your. physical body. You know eyeball is out. and your ribs are all that that you were. able to put yourself back together and. physically speak and physically move.

How has this experience affected your. acting? Uh, I don't know if it's in a positive. way to be honest. It was hard to even. want to go back. to fiction. I have to worry about my. next freaking breath. I got to worry. about my next step. I have to consider, you know, every joint of my body was. crushed and like I I I don't want to. live a life of uh of pain, right? So, I. had to focus on a lot of life stuff.

Real real like life stuff like to go. entertain and tell jokes or um entertain. in the fiction world was it was was kind. of so far-fetched for me. I didn't know. if that was ever going to happen. It now. that my body's, you know, back in put. back together like Humpty Dumpty at some. point, I feel um blessed that I'm able. to get back into it. I feel I don't know. if it makes me better to be honest. Uh I. don't know if it makes me worse. It's um.

I don't know like I enjoy my job. I love. my job. Um but still in the back of my. mind I know what really has value to me. Wow. You know, I can quit this job any. day and be like and never look back and. be so happy and be around my family, be. around those that I love and have great. shared experience with them and that's. all. I think that's a common reaction, isn't it, Dr. Everybody who goes through this, they. come back and the priorities for living. have shifted. Right. Right. So many.

things you said, Jeremy, are so typical. of near-death experiences, having no. sense of time, feeling the love, feeling. like you don't really need the body and. all its restrictions. But let me ask. you, with all this new understanding, how does it change your day-to-day. interactions with people? Uh, you know, I've never been more connected. Uh, it's. released any sort of social anxiety I. have. I have never felt felt more like. more confident. I get there some. something that comes like a peace. I. have this exhilarating peace and which. is such an antithesis of words but I.

feel so at peace you know I'm getting I. got a wink from the the universe saying. like hey you know now you you got to see. behind the curtain. Um so I got to come. back and be and do exactly what I want. to do and nothing is in my way. There's. no obstacle. I'll never I'll never. afforded a bad day. I've been tested to. my limits of pain. So pain is just. that's nothing. That's just a human. construct. I mean it's nothing. So I. live my life um so connected. So always.

with love driven um I it it it's. definitely changed in the sense of like. I don't pursue things that I would. pursue before because I just don't find. any value in it anymore. Um, which I'm. sure are many just sort of normal things. that I think a lot of normal people just. go about doing. Yeah. And there's. nothing wrong with that. For me, I'm. just very very very There's like two or. three things that I'm gonna be doing in. my life and that's it. And I'm so happy. I'm happy to wake up. I'm happy to be.

walking on these two busted old legs, man. I'm happy to be breathing right. now. Happy. I'm just like I just have. nothing but joy in my life. I don't I'm. not afforded a bad day, right? It's just. pretty amazing. Pretty blessed. What has been the reaction from your. friends, your loved ones, colleagues. with this new new look at life? There's. there's with with that Oprah, there's. that's where a lot. of it's it's was it was all a connected. thing anyway. It wasn't just it just. didn't just happen to me, right? I might.

have gotten ran over, but I affected so. many people in my life that I love. dearly. So many people that and the. ripple effect of that goes beyond. Yes. Right. We're here still talking about it. now on a podcast two years later. So, I. held responsibility to that and used. that as fuel to heal my family and those. that I've hurt and giving the I I gave. them a lot of toxic awful images and. dreams. And my my poor nephew, he had to.

watch me holding my arm die in the ice. and my eyeball out. He can't unsee that, right? Yeah. So in in me never worrying. about getting better, I just had to get. better to help them. So whatever my. physical um milestones were, they were. always fueled by number one my daughter. and then the rest of my family to cuz I. love them so. deeply. Um I couldn't bear the responsibility of. giving them um nightmares for the rest.

of their lives and might die some. So, I'm going to take this one-way road of. recovery and god damn it, I'm going to. recover. And god damn it, I'm going to. get better every damn day for my family, for my daughter. And that's how I got. better so fast. So, and then there's. miracles involved at every turn here. with every doctor, every my, you know, there's it took a thousand people to. keep me alive. Okay. But to get better. once I wasn't dying, it was my family. and my love, my deep love, the safe.

landing spot of love that I have with my. family all my life. Um, and not wanting. to disappoint them. Um, so fortunate. that I had that one-way road of. recovery. And I saw your post on on of. all the medical people who saved you. That is that's a lot of people. That's a. team. You had an army going to war for. you. Oh boy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I. can't wait till your book comes out. I. want to tell everyone that Jeremy's.

memoir, My Next Breath, and we see why. it's called that, is available on April. 29th. And I know all of the people who. love and support you, your your viewers. and fans throughout the world are. looking forward to reading more about. your story, Jeremy. Thank you for taking. time out for filming for Mayor of. Kingstone today to be with us. Thank. you. Thank you so much for having me. I. appreciate it. It's always lovely. talking. All right. Great. Great. Well, I mean, I think for him to discover that.

this has been happening to many, many, many people in twothirds of the cases. you study, people say that they met um. they met people from the other side. I'm. wondering because all these years, having interviewed certainly not as many. people as you have, but interviewed a. lot of people, I it feels like the NDE. is specifically designed for you. So some people experience what they've. done to other people. Other people. experience what people have done to. them. I mean it it feels like there are.

commonalities but there are also. specifics. Right. Right. People often. people often say that it was designed. specifically for them like they had a. role in creating it for them. And maybe. that's just the way they perceived it. And we all perceive the same experience. in different ways. That's right. So. maybe it's just that the way what they. take back from the experience is what's. relevant to them. And everybody does. For everybody that's different, right? Right. Yes. If you and I took a plane to. to Paris, we'd come back with very. different memories because we have. different interests, even if we were on.

the same plane. Exactly. Absolutely. So, orthopedic spinal surgeon and two-time. New York Times bestselling author, Dr. Mary Neil joins us from Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Dr. Neil, you also had a. near-death experience, I understand, 30. years ago on a kayaking trip. What. happened? Welcome. Yes. Well, uh, first. of all, thank you for having me on and. thank you for having this topic because. it's really important. Like Jeremy said, none of us are aware of these.

experiences until someone opens our. eyes. But my own experience began when I. was whitewater kayaking in South America. with my husband and friends of ours who. are own a raft and kayak company. And circumstances were such that I went. over um a waterfall or a drop that was. maybe 10 or 15 ft high. And when I hit. the bottom, my boat became pinned or.

stuck in the rocks and the underwater. features. And the boat and I were then. completely submerged under 8 to 10 ft of. water. The weight of the water and the force of. the current was such that there was no. way to, you know, pull the spray skirt. out. So, I was under there for almost 30. minutes. Whoa. And while I was there,

um, I lost consciousness. It's a funny. thing. I mean, I was never conscious and. then. unconscious. I felt like I was conscious. and then more conscious. you know, alive. and then more alive. Wow. And like. you've already heard, you know, there. was a shift in time and dimension so. that I could be underwater and still. feel the weight of the water. I could. feel the plastic of my boat, but at the.

same time, I began to have. this inexplicable experience. At a. certain point, asked that God's will be. done. And I was immediately overcome by. a very physical sensation of being held. and comforted and reassured that. everything would be fine regardless of. whether I lived or died. And you know, I. had four little kids and I was told. that, you know, they'd be fine. And I. was uh being held kind of like a baby.

and reassured and taken through a life. review that was nothing that I. personally could have imagined. It had. nothing to do with judgment and. everything to do with understanding and. love. I had Did you have a life review? Did you have a life review? I had a life. review that took me through every one of. the most painful, wounding, horrible. experiences of my life. And I had an.

absolute understanding of everyone. involved. me, the other people, not just. the emotions, but as Jeremy said, I was. the other people involved and I was me. And I had a complete understanding of. what brought each of us to that. situation. Yeah. Every time I've heard. this, it feels like the the truth to me. because, you know, I was raised very. very strict religiously and the word you. just said here uh was was resonated with.

me with such jud that when you die. there's going to be the judgment. And I. remember the first time I heard someone. talk about this on the show, I thought, "Oh, the judgment is actually the way. you've lived and the feelings that. you've created with other people. Everything you've ever done comes back. to you. That's the judgment. Yeah. I mean, the fact is every single. person who has had a profound spiritual. experience would say the same thing. And.

that is that God is love. And the fact. is where God is present, where God's. love is present, there is no room for. destructive emotions of guilt and. remorse and shame and awe, anger, bitterness, all of those things. What I. discovered is that where God is present, there is always some version of love. Be. it compassion or empathy or understand, kindness, kindness, all of that. All of it. So,

you received a warning. You received a. warning during your near death. experience. What was it? Well, I did. I. had this incredible experience of. leaving my body, going to heaven, God's. world, spiritual realm. I was told that. it wasn't my time. I had to go back to. earth. I had more work to do and I was. given a list of things that I still had. to do. And one of the things on this. list was uh had to do with the coming.

and unexpected death of my oldest son. And he at the time was nine and healthy. And I of course asked why obviously and. when I asked that I was taken back to my. life review where I'd been shown again. and again and again that beauty really. does come of all things. Then I was. taken back to my body and and 10 years. later your son actually passed away. So. I this is what I was wondering since.

you've been given that warning that your. son is going to die. How do you live in. this world of density for 10 years. knowing that your son is going to die. early and that's part of one of your. assignments? How do you live not in fear. every day? Or is it because you had that. loving near-death experience, you know. that whenever he passes, it's going to. be okay. There is no way any person could. shoulder that burden without having an.

absolute knowledge, understanding and. trust that God is real and present. That. we are really just spiritual beings. living in this three-dimensional body. That there really is life after death, continuation of our. consciousness. Again, however you want. to describe it. Because knowing that. without any shred of doubt gave me a. confidence. that if indeed his death came to pass,

great beauty would come of it, he would. have been joyfully welcomed home as I. had been, and that he wasn't lost to me. The fact is, I know he'll be there. waiting for me when my time is done. But. until then, you know, I'm here on earth. with more left to do, you know, and. we're here. It's it's this great. adventure, this great opportunity to. learn and grow and reflect God's love to.

others. And how did you now in human. form again, not in that loving all. connected space, come back knowing that. your son is going to die and nobody else. around you knows that. So now you have. to move through the world and. and you weren't told when it was going. to die. So you don't know if he's going. to die next week or next month. And then. years pass and he doesn't die. So you're. thinking maybe that I didn't even hear.

that. Maybe that wasn't even real. I. woke up every day wondering if that. would be the day. Got it. That's that's. that's what I'm saying. Again, it's not. um your question is how do you get. through that day? Well, you get through. that day with this absolute trust that. God is real and present in my life, in. my son's life, in my family, in the. world. If that is part of the plan for. his life and our.

lives, then great beauty would come of. it. Can you explain to us uh how he died. 10 years later? people listening will. want. Yeah, he was doing a dryland ski. training and was hit by a. car. So he, you know, he was killed. instantly. And so when you got that. message that your son is gone, you. thought, "Okay, there it is." Yeah. And. I'm not going to say that, you know, I.

said, "Oh, hey, that's great." No, I was. as devastated as a mother could be. Mhm. But I will honestly tell you that even. in the midst of my. sorrow, I experienced great joy. And. that joy is because. of knowing, trusting spiritual truth. Yeah. I always. say when you lose a loved one, tell me. if you agree with this or not. But since. I started hearing these near-death.

experiences and also know that I have a. whole posi, I have a team on the other. side. I feel them all the time looking. out for me. That that's one of the. reasons why I've had a life that I've. had because of all that's come before. me. And where are all those people with. me right now? And uh I I I I'm just. wondering if you you know still feel. him. You still feel connected to that.

Do you feel that that that sense of. awareness? Yeah, I sure do. I mean my my. concept of it is we don't live here and. they live here. We live and exist within. the spiritual realm. There is no uh time. in the spiritual world. There's no. dimension. I don't have the words but it. exists within each other and everything.

exists simultaneously although. independently. So yes, I believe we live. within the spiritual world even though. our three-dimensional brains can't see. it. We don't always acknowledge it. Yeah. But the fact is there is spiritual. crossover. Yeah. You can the brain. doesn't acknowledge it but I can tell. you I can I experience it. Yes. Through. stillness. I can sit amongst the trees. and literally become one with them. I.

mean I can you know I know that sounds. crazy but I can. So I think that there. is a there is a way to do it but I also. feel that the density of the body keeps. you from doing it. It's why I always do. say though when people have loved ones. that pass Dr. Grayson, it's like now you. have an angel you can call by name. Now. you have somebody who's crossed over to. the other side. Thank you so much, Dr. Neil. Dr. Neil's books are to heaven and. Back and Seven Lessons from Heaven. We. could listen to you all day cuz we love. this conversation. We love this. conversation. It's my favorite.

conversation. It's my favorite. conversation, too. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. Oprah, I've. known Mary for a number of years, and. what you don't see in this interview is. that she's a downto-earth, nononsense. orthopedic surgeon who is very much. making her her career in this world by. treating us our physical bodies. And. yet, she's been aware for decades of. this other world that we're part of as. well that's more important than the. physical. Yeah, I think that's so cool. So obviously when since you had the.

experience with Holly who's in the. ICU and completely out of it that you. were telling us earlier in this. conversation and the next day you come. in and she remembers a conversation that. you had down the hall with a friend of. hers and knows that there was a stain on. your tie. You start to think differently. about all of this. So what do you make. of all of this? Well, that first episode. with Holly was just a fluke and I. thought, well, you know, she's a.

psychiatric patient. Who knows what's. really going on. Yeah. There's got to be. an explanation. So, I started collecting. other cases of people who had come close. to death or been been pronounced dead. and had these fantastic stories to tell. And I was trying to find some. consistency. Are they related to oxygen. deprivation? Are they related to drugs? Are they related to heart arrhythmias? You know, what's going on with these. people? And over the last 50 years, we've talked to thousands and thousands. of people, done some physiological. measurements on people when they were.

close to death, and we found that none. of these simplistic hypotheses turns out. to be true. It's not oxygen deprivation. It's not drugs. It's not endorphins. being produced by the brain. It's not. erratic electrical activity in the brain. or the heart. These things just don't. explain what's going on. Why is there. such resistance to it? is because the. very nature of scientists and the. medical field is to question what you. don't know. What we're taught in college. and medical school is that the mind is. what the brain does and all our thoughts. and feelings must come from the brain.

And people who are trained to this way. tend to accept that and not look at the. data that contradict that. And I think. that doctors and science so they're. taught the mind is what the brain does, right? Yeah. But we see experiences like. near-death experiences and lots of. others as well. They say they're. separate, disprove that. And yet many. scientists are reluctant to acknowledge. this evidence that doesn't go along with. what they were taught. I wish they were. more skeptical about what they were. taught and be more open to the evidence. Okay. Harmony joins us. Harmony is uh in.

Los Angeles, a Grammyinning songwriter. and producer who also had a near-death. experience at the age of just uh you. were 13. 13 years old. Yes. 13 years old. Tell. us. Hi, welcome Harmony. How you doing? I am doing so good. We we want to know. what happened. What happened to you? Well, uh I come from a very very very. religious background. I was born in. London uh by Nigerian parents and my. parents were very strict and raised us.

in the church. Uh I was yeah was playing. I was a musician in the church for. years. So I had a true understanding of. having a relationship with God and. having a spiritual side uh from a very. young age. Uh but this particular week. was interesting because a few days prior. to the accident, my mother had uh an. inkling to pray because she had a dream. that the middle child was going to was. in a car accident. Fast forward, last.

day of school, we go on a school bus, well red bus in London. Yeah. And we're. on our way back and it's the last day of. school and an interesting thing took. place as I was crossing the road to get. to the other side. It was a dangerous. road and the car that was coming behind. it, didn't see the bus, so swerved right. past the bus to avoid the bus. And I'm. in the middle of the road. So, oh my. goodness. Um, from what I was.

told, I flew over the car and my face. hit the windscreen and basically ripped. my whole face open. So, this whole I. have a scar right now, which is this. small, but when it like my whole lid was. open. Um, and supposedly I got up and. fell right back down. Um, what I. experienced was what felt like slumber. Like I felt like I fell asleep and then. I woke up in this dream. In this dream,

it seemed like I could see my reality. and it was me floating over everything. that was taking place. The accident. didn't actually see me in the accident, but I could see the crowd, the bus, the. car, my sister that was walk crossing. the bridge ran running back down. That's. my brother. That's my brother. and I'm. floating and and and I'm. experiencing this scene, right? And I'm. it feels like a dream. Then whilst that. there's this aura and this feeling of.

something great that just comes around. It's not a light. It's not It's bigger. than that. It's it's so big and it's so. consuming. It feels loud, but it feels. so quiet at the same time. It's so great. and grand, but at the same time, it's. very peaceful and simple. I didn't feel. afraid at all. Yeah. You didn't feel. afraid at all. But didn't you hear them. say you're dead? Didn't you hear them. say he's dead? So, go ahead. So, they. pronounced me dead. I I didn't I I I.

heard that when I woke up. They had. pronounced me dead. My sister, they had. run to my mom and said, "Your son has. been pronounced dead. They're wrapping. him up right now about to put him in. How How How did this change you as a. 13-year-old? Just blew my mind. because that's what I heard. It was. like, "It's not yet time." And it wasn't. it's it it's such a big voice, but it. was such a tender voice. It was so loud, but it was a whisper. It's like it's it.

just took over. And I was sure I knew. who it was. I knew exactly who it was. And then I woke up. Who was it? And when. I Who was it? Who was it? God. God for. me. Okay. It was God for me. It was like. the everlasting whoever created this. earth spoke to me and said it's not yet. time. So I wake up from what I thought. was a dream with this. sheet over me and I'm like and there's. like he's alive. He's alive. And I'm. like yo what is everybody doing in my.

bedroom? Like why are y'all in my. bedroom? So, I'm thinking I'm in my. bedroom and I'm still in the middle of. the street. Yeah. Cuz they had covered. you with the sheep. You're gone. And. they basically ready like they were. ready to kind of be like, "He's done. He's finished. He's cooked. He's he's. he's dead." You know? Um and like I. said, they told my mother, I was dead at. the scene. They my sister had been had. basically been told he's dead. Like he's. he's not waking up. And you heard the. voice of God.

as you know it to be. Um 10% you felt I. heard when I was 9 years old. Yeah. You. heard the voice say it's not your time. And then did that's when you you felt. that you came back into your body. That's when I came back. And ever since. then that same voice has guided me in so. many ways. Yeah. Uh, and it's like I. said, it's a voice cuz it's it's really. faint and it's peaceful, but it's really. big and loud at the same time. It's I've.

never I've never I can always tell it's. like, "Okay, there it is." Cuz it comes. in such a way that it's unexplainable, but it's it's very different from the. mind. It's very different from, you. know, all the other voices that can be. distracting and come and, you know, distort idea in your mind. It's very I. know I I know Harmony, you have a. question for Dr. Grayson. What is it? Now that you've heard so many stories. that have similar experiences, Doc, is it safe to say that there is.

life after this. life? As a scientist, I can't say we've. proven that. But as a person who's hear. these stories, I find it hard to deny. that there seem to be so many cases. where people are pronounced dead and yet. seem to be thinking clearly and in fact. more vividly than ever before. And if. that can happen without the brain being. active, that opens the possibility that. we it keeps going forever or as long as. we can measure. So what would prove it.

to the to the scientist? Because I don't. know what you need other than thousands. of people who've experienced it. Well, for many scientists, they have to. experience it themselves, and they may. do that eventually. Yeah. But I wanted. to ask you a question, Harmony. Um I. know we've heard from so many um adult. near-death experiences how hard it was. to go back to a quote normal life after. this. What was it like for a 13-year-old. to go back to school and to do the usual. activities of a teenager? There was a. different understanding of what my life. was going to be consider how my life was.

going to go. I knew from that moment on, my life was going to move differently. And tracing everything up to this day, the people I've met, the experiences, uh the places and the platforms that. I've been on, I've understood that. signific that day made a signific. significant difference in my life. And. there was a confidence I had to start. walking in. And there was an. understanding deep down no matter what. was around me, no matter who was around. me, no matter how things played around.

me, I had to trust that voice every. time. And anytime I lost weight, I would. always go back to that it's not yet. time, which may which also made me. understand I got a time period to do. some things here. Do you know what I. mean? I have some significant things to. do while I have the time because in this. lifetime run runs out now in the life. after this time probably continues but. there are things that I believe he kept. me for using the words it's not yet time.

is just it just allows me to know like I. I have a time period to get some things. done and I think the beautiful thing one. of the other beautiful things that. you've said here and I have tried to be. guided by that voice my whole. life Uh, also never had an indie or near. near-death experience, but I remember. being on the back porch. My grandmother. was washing clothes and I was like four. or 5 years old and she said, "You better. watch me now, Opra Gale, cuz one day. you're going to have to learn how to do. this for yourself." And I distinctly.

heard the voice say, "No, you won't. Your life will be. different. No, you won't. Your life will. be different." And I remember that. feeling. And that feel that voice is. different than the voice that's just in. my head. It's the that goes on and I. have tried to. be obedient to that voice. So when you. said Harmony, oh there it is. Oh, there. it is. Anytime I'm in a crisis and I'm. thinking and I don't know what should I.

do, what I should do, I go and get. myself still so I can hear that voice. and go, "Oh, there it is." and be guided. by that thing. And that you never go. wrong. Yeah, you never go wrong. And and. I believe we're all connected to that. thing. And I believe we all have the. ability to hear that thing, research. that thing, feel that thing, and be. guided by that by that thing. By that. thing could be all kind of things to. different people. Everybody has a. different understanding of what that. thing is. It's God to me. It's something.

else to somebody else. And I respect it. all that they all have something similar. which is God is the all-encompassing. word. Yes. Yeah. And I and often times. when I pray at my table and there are. different people from different. backgrounds I say by all the names we. call God in the universe so that it is. inclusive of whatever you that is is to. you and and and it is just it is all one. thing. It is all one being one existence.

but whatever you choose to call it. Well, thank you. Keep being led by the. voice, Harmony. Thank you so much, God. The honor and the blessing of being in. this room. I appreciate it. Uh, thank. you so much. Thank you so much. Thank. you so much. So, I mean, I think what. Harmony was able to share, I I don't. know of a lot of kids have had that. experience. Uh, I haven't dealt with a. lot of children, but those that I that I. have talked to often have difficulty. taking life seriously at that point. And. it's one thing when you're 30, 40 years.

old and you realize there's nothing more. important. But when you're a kid trying. to figure out who you are anyway to have. this thrown at you makes it much harder. to figure out what is my life all about? What am I going to do with it? Yeah. But. I thought what he said about the voices. So that's amazing. We have Gabrielle. Gabrielle joining us from Natural Dam, Arkansas. She's a country singer who had. a near-death experience two years ago. just before discovering that you had a. brain tumor. Welcome. take us back to. that night your mom found you in the. room bedroom growing up. Yes. Thank you.

so much for having me, y'all. Yeah, it. was it was pretty bizarre to be honest. I was driving home from Nashville. I was. 7 and a half hours away and um that. night I got a really bad migraine and. usually if I'm feeling sick I'll just. stop at a hotel and just stay the night. and then go the rest of the way. That. night, I just believe that there's. something supernatural that kept me. moving. And so, I stopped in. gradu when I get back to my parents.

house. I um I went to bed. I was like, I'm just tired. I'm exhausted. And we. believe that there is something that. just woke my mom up. We believe in, you. know, Jesus, but Jesus just woke her up. and she felt like she needed to do. laundry, which is right next to my. childhood bedroom. So, she hears me. throwing up in the bathroom and um she. comes in to check on me. I'm telling. her, "I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine." And. as I as I'm telling her this, I start.

having seizures. Wow. And so, she's. like, "You are not. mine." So, we um had this horrible storm. that was happening that night. for. ambulance was weren't running. Um we. live in the boonies and so uh they um. called the private ambulance company. They met my family uh my sister, my now. husband, everyone. We we loaded up. They. loaded me up into this ambulance and.

we're only able to make it to Portsmith, which is about 45 minutes away. It's not. the place you'd want to get your um you. know, brain surgery at because there. wasn't specialists there. But um if it. wasn't storming that night, they would. have taken me all the way to Little. Rock, which is 2 and a half hours. And. since they didn't, I actually ended up. in that hospital 45 minutes away, flatlined, and needing to be intubated. So, um that was just the beginning of.

the miracle. If it wasn't for that storm. and me going to the first hospital and. those amazing doctors there saving me. and intubating me and bringing me back, then I I would not have made it. Well, there's there's multiple multiple. miracles that you have. I mean, first of. all, Jesus waking your mama up and she. wants to do laundry in the middle of the. night. Let's just start with that one. I. I mean, listen, I believe in all of. that. I know exactly what you're talking. about when they like, gosh, I just feel.

like doing laundry. Don't know why, and. there you are throwing up in the. bathroom. So, tell us about the. near-death experience. What did you see? What did you feel? Did you see Jesus? So, as I'm, you know, it I I'm listening. to these stories and it's so wild that. everyone seems to kind of be on the same. page of the no time and this complete. peace and rest. And for for me, I um I I. apparently flatlined for 30 seconds to a.

minute and there was no time. I just. almost felt this hand. I felt like it. was the hand of Jesus and just being. like, "Nope, not not yet. Not yet." And. so I had this knowing just knowing of it. wasn't my time. And it wasn't this voice. or anything like that. It was like. everything that I was saying in my heart. was being heard and everything that. whatever it was saying talking to me. whether it be an angel or Jesus um was.

letting me know they were saying it. telepathically. It's so wild how that. happened because people are always what. you see what you see. I'm like I just. knew. I just knew. So what she's. describing is what so many people. describe to because what I've heard too. and you write about in in in after is. that words fail you. Words are a. creation of this realm and you. know language which is necessary for us.

to communicate but that you don't need. that on the other side in the in in the. other realm. Correct. That's right. That's right. Everyone uses whatever. language they can think of, but they. always say it's not the Jesus I was. taught about. It's much bigger than. that. You know, they said it's I can't. give you words for it, but it's there. And after your NDE uh your near-death. experience, I heard Gabrielle that. everything just felt trivial after that. Tell us about that feeling. Oh my gosh,

it so I woke up a week and a half later. and I had a big gauze patch on my head. and um I had Bell's palsy severe on my. the right side of my face and um my. brother, he's he's a duo and he was. there and I didn't expect him to be. there and if you've heard of the duo Dan. and Shay. Yeah. Yeah. And so my brother. Shay just scured on down there. My. sister Erica was in there in the room.

Um, I remember waking up and my brother. being at the end of my bed and I I had. no idea what had happened. I I was like, "Oh, what what are you doing here?" And. everything that I did after that, you. know, I was supposed to release an. album. I was supposed to go on tour all. in 2023. I was supposed to do all these. things that people expected of me and. that, you know, needed from me. And it. took me so long to even be able to think. about trivial things of the world like.

money or fame or or get my music out. there. It was just I had this spiritual. experience that just made me want to. love on people and love on my family. And it made me realize that there's. nothing in this world that matters. You. can't take it with you when you go. You. can get a Grammy. You can get money. You. can have beautiful homes, but you're not. taking it with you. Yeah. And so the. legacy you leave behind is the most.

important thing. And the love that you. leave behind with your family. I loved. earlier when Jeremy was on Jeremy Rener. and he was saying love is the only thing. you take with you. Love is the only. thing you take with you. Do you do you. have a question for Dr. Grayson? I. actually do. So after I had my. experience, it was so hard for me to. acclimate. Do you find that that is. common from people that have had. near-death experiences to be able to. kind of go back to their hustle? Yes,

it's very common. People differ how hard. it is because some of them have a. spiritual life to begin with and others. others don't. And we've done some. studies recently looking at who people. turn to for help and what types of help. help and which ones don't. And what. seems to be most helpful is talking to. other people who have had near-death. experiences and who have been through. this before and come up with their own. ways of dealing with this. So, if you. can find a group of other experiencers. who have gone through this, they may be. the most helpful thing for you. And I. hear you have an album coming out this.

summer, right? And did did you did you. did you write a song about this. experience? I'm actually writing. several. Um, it's it's funny because we. uh we started this song called Coming. Back to You. And it's not just about my. husband. and I love him so much. He's. perfect. Um, in fact, while I was in the. hospital, I had Bell's palsy and one. eyeball was open and I knew I was going. to marry him when my sister told me that. he just went over and just closed that. little eyeball for me. So, well, I have. so many.

songs. I have so many songs written. about him, but we have one um that we're. writing called Coming Back to You and. it's about f my family and um my husband. just um being able to share their life. experiences with them cuz that's the. thing that you'd miss out on is their. lives. You know, people think that it's. just your life you're missing out on. Good luck to you on that album. Great. success, Gabrielle. And thank you for. joining us. Thank you so much for. sharing your story. I mean, and let me.

just say, you got a good man if he came. over there and closed that little. eyeball. He is the best. I got to say. that's one of the best love love moments. I've heard. I think that's I know that's. looked kind of crazy, you know. I just I. just think that's so endearing. Thank. you so much. Thank you so much. Thank. you. So, Dr. Grayson, Dr. Neil, Harmony, and Gabrielle, they all describe hearing. a voice or the message. Yes. uh it's not your time whether it's.

physically hearing it as as Harmony did. or as in the case of Gabrielle she said. she didn't hear that but she felt that. it's not your time is that common for. most indes because as you're coming back. into the body you come back yeah it's. common but it's not universal by any. means some people say that they were. given a choice do you want to stay here. or do you want to go back and finish. something and they make a decision to. come back and finish something they have. left undone whether it's uh helping a a.

deceased or dying person um pass over or. raising a child or writing a book about. it um but they have some reason they. chose to come back and to say they are. set back up against my will well you. know all of this reminds me I read I had. read um song of myself I think in high. school or college and then the very. first time I s Walt Whitman's song of. myself and the very first time I had uh. an interview with somebody with an NDE. Their experience reminded me of what he.

says in Song of Myself. He says, "All. goes onward and outward. Nothing. collapses and to die is different from. what anyone. supposed luckier." Has anyone supposed. it lucky to be born? I hasten to inform. him or her. It is just as lucky to die. and I know it. I pass death with the. dying and birth with the new washed babe.

and am not contained between my hat and. my boots. So when I went back and reread. that, I thought Walt Whitman must have. had an. indie. Yes. Yeah. Well, a near-death. event is only the most common way in our. culture to have this type of experience, but it's a common spiritual experience. It's been happening for people for. centuries all around the globe. Uh for. in different reasons for different. reasons. Some get it through meditation. or through prayer or just spontaneously.

Uh and the near-death experiences is one. one precipitant for that experience. So, the title of your book after, as I uh. started out talking about at the. beginning of our conversation, has. multiple meanings for you. What are. they? Well, the most obvious one was. what happens after we die. And I. speculated about that. You asked before, what would it take for scientists to be. to show that this is true? Scientists. don't deal with proof. They deal with. the weight of the evidence. So they can. say the evidence points to the fact that.

we survive, but they can never say it's. proven. Scientists don't do that. Yes. And the scientist to me says, I can't. say for sure. Yes. But I believe it. does. I believe I believe the evidence. points. I can't think of another. explanation for these experiences. Um, so one one that's one of one of the. meanings what happens after the other is. what happens to people after they've had. a near-death experience and come back to. this world. Yes. And how do they live. their lives after the near-death. experience? Yeah, that's what Gabrielle. was saying. Yes. And for most near death.

experiences to say that's the most. important lesson of the NDE. How do you. live your life knowing this? And the final reason for the book being. called after is to make you think about. what am I going to do differently after. I've read this book? What do I do now. with this knowledge? Mhm. And there have. been some studies now of how knowing. about NDEs affects people's lives. They've done studies with looking at. college students who've taken a course. in NDEs and looked at them before and.

after. And some of the same after. effects you see with near death. experiences becoming more spiritual, more compassionate, less materialistic. We see those with people who are just. exposed to NDEs. And you often see this in family and. friends of near-death experiences that. they also become more spiritual, less. driven to achieve in this world. Well, I. tell you this is from the very first. time I started hearing about them and. just had the aha that makes sense to me. That's how religion meets.

spirituality. Um, and also becoming. aware of the army of people that have. come before me. Um, it helped me to not. fear death. To not fear death because I. believe as Whitman says that whatever is. there on the other side is going to be. the big surprise that being born in this. realm was. And so, do you fear death? Oh, definitely. That's the most common. thing people say after a near-death. experience. No matter what the NDE was.

like, whether it was blissful or not. blissful, they say, "I'm not afraid of. dying anymore." And that's what makes. the near-death experience so different. from other people who have come close to. death. Most people who almost die come. back valuing life more. They want to be. more alive, more vibrant than they were. before, but they're also more afraid of. dying unless they've had a near-death. experience. And then they're not afraid. of dying either. They say, in fact, if. you're not afraid of dying, then you're. less afraid of living to the fullest.

Oh, and that brings me to the question I. like to ask everybody all the all the. time here on this podcast is how do you. define a well-lived life? I think you heard it from from Jeremy. and from uh Tom Sawyer as well that you. you live your life knowing that what's. important is how you treat other people. and that living the golden rule not just. giving lip service to but actually. living it in your day-to-day life makes. life much more meaningful much more. purposeful. Yeah. Well, thank you Dr.

Bruce Grayson, thank you Jeremy Ritter, Dr. Mary Neil, thank you. Harmony, Harmony and Gabrielle for sharing your. experiences with us. Dr. Grayson's book. is After a Doctor Explores what. near-death experiences reveal about life. and beyond, and it's available wherever. you buy your books, wherever books are. sold. Fascinating read. Go well. everybody. You can subscribe to the Over. Podcast on YouTube and follow us on. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks. everybody.