Ocean Vuong: "The Emperor Of Gladness" | Oprah's Book Club

Everybody, hello. [cheering]. Let me introduce you to this genius man, Ocean Vong. Say hello right there. [cheering]. [applause]. Everybody here's read the book. Oh, thank you. Okay, ready class? I love [music] this book so much. Hi, everybody. A warm welcome to you. Uh, thanks for joining us for Oprah's.

Book Club presented by Starbucks. It's. so good to be here in my old sweet home. Chicago at a cozy Starbucks cafe. I. think it's a great place to meet a. friend and connect over a good book and. a delicious cup of curated coffee. The. pairing for this book club pick is an. ice brown sugar oat milk shaken. espresso. They say it's the ultimate. pickme up. So, my 114th book club. selection, we're here to talk about it. today. And I just have to say I have to.

stop myself from tearing up when I think. about this book because it is epic. It. is poignant. It is hauntingly beautiful. And I read it back in October and I. still sometimes wake up thinking about. the characters. The book is called The. Emperor of Gladness by celebrated author. Ocean Vong. Welcome, Ocean Vong.

[applause]. Um, I I want to talk to you about being. this accomplished author with so many. awards. Hard to mention them all. At. just 36, you have a wild list of. accomplishments. New York Times. best-selling author, a professor of. modern poetry at NYU, a multiple. award-winning poet, essaist, novelist, screenwriter. You also won a MacArthur.

genius grant, and English isn't even. your first language. Where does this come from? This. wellspring of of creativity. I have to say, I was raised by women who. were illiterate. And I think about this. often. Where does it come from? I think. even though they were illiterate, they. were the first poets because they saw. that when they came to this country with. nothing, they realized that with. language they can make anything happen. So I just want to say you and your.

family immigrated from Vietnam to United. States when you were just 2 years old. And I know your mother worked in a nail. salon for 25 years to support the. family. And she watched the Oprah show. every day at 4:00 that TV would be on. That's what you told me when I called. you. Sometimes it's just us three. Me, you, and her. [laughter]. On slow days, I would answer the phone. at the nail salon and you know, she. would be there working. And what's so.

interesting was that when you called me, this is Oprah. How are you? What? This is Oprah Winfrey. How are you? I recognized the voice right away. I. just didn't believe that you were. talking to me for any any real reason. But when you I heard your voice, I said, "This is the voice I heard all my life. at 4:00. when I answered the phone." And you. know, I wanted to tell you this that. your voice was a kind of.

mediation. for all of these women in the nail. salon, both the workers and the people. who went there to get their nails done. cuz I saw them when they came in with. their husbands and they the husbands. will wait for a while and then he they. would leave and after a while it would. just be all women and I found that their. voices changed. with your voice among them and as a. child I was so interest it was so. interesting to hear speech everyone. talking differently there they were more. vulnerable they were more open with each. other and I got to see my mother kind of.

use the show as a way to open up for. herself and to learn the language. She. would not always understand what was. happening, but she would had this little. trick where she every time there was. like a inflected moment in the show with. your voice, my mother would work on a. client, she would go, "Oh boy.". [laughter]. And then the client would, it always. works. You could any given time you. could just say, "Oh, oh boy." And then,

[laughter]. and then the client would say, "Isn't. that right?" And then she would learn. what was happening from them cuz her. voice her head is down. She couldn't. hear it. But I saw this kind of town. square that your voice created and the. themes and what was really touching for. me and I didn't understand it at that. time for a community that I that I grew. up in working poor immigrants reading. was very intimidating. We didn't step.

into bookstores or libraries. It felt. like an impenetrable. world that was not for us and it was. aligned with eliticism and power and. institutions and higher learning that we. thought was that ship has sailed for us. But when you held up the books in your. show, my mother recognized that and. says, "Oh, this is accessible. You're. making the act of reading both. accessibly dignified but also fruitful.

for people who are outside of these. realms of institutional eliticism. And I. saw the women talk about books in your. show and then they would walk across the. Barnes & Noble across the the the mall. and they would have language and they. would come in and they would say this is. the the book I want. I know how to talk. about it. And there's a kind of. dignified confidence to literacy. M. and I I don't know if anyone has talked. about that, but I think that was the. major byproduct that your show did is. that it made workingclass people who.

don't have access to centers of. knowledge. They don't get to be in a. classroom and have, you know, high. philosophy around craft or what have. you. They get to participate in the. vehicle of culture. And you made culture. legible to them who often don't have. that chance. So, I just want to say thank you. So, so. much for that. Oh my god. [applause] Now I'm going to. fly. [applause].

Well, I think your mother is with us in. spirit today. She would be so proud that. it is now your book that I'm holding up. and telling the world about her son. And when you were, you know, working in. the nail salon, you're working at the. Boston Market. How did you get to be. Ocean Bong, the celebrated writer? Well, my my mother knew I was a a nerd. And um we came up in Vietnam as rice.

farmers. Yeah. I was the first to go to college, the. first to read, and we've been rice. farmers very happily for hundreds of. years. It was the war that ejected us. from that idyllic world into this one. And so by geopolitical violence and. accident, I'm now a professor in a way. But she knew that in this country the. sentence will be the medium that can. make us change and change our lives. She.

didn't understand it, but she knew it. was powerful. So she would drop me off. before her shift at the nail salon at. the public library and she gave me this. mandate and she said, "You go in there. and you read everything, especially what you don't understand.". Wow. And it's so interesting because that's. what I give my students now. I said you. you have to move towards the unknown,

the mystery. The condition of not. knowing is the first step of knowledge. Wow. Don't be afraid of not knowing. You owe. it to yourself to go to the root of the. mystery. And that is the work not only of. pedagogy and education but also of life. It goes beyond books. When I called you, I told you that when. I told you I was choosing this as a book. club. I said I still think about high. I. still think about Sony. I still think.

about these characters. Readers, didn't. you love these characters and don't they. stay with you? And so I am just wondering how this. story came to be. I'm always fascinated. by the process by which authors come to. tell their story. It feels like the. emperor was always inside you somewhere. How did it come to be? Yeah. You know, America has often been. founded on the idea. of the nuclear family.

And one antidote to that might be the. found family. Yeah. But I actually think when we look at the. the history of our culture, it's the. circumstantial family. founded around labor. And so when I. worked at Boston Market as a teenager, um I found that it was actually the. relationships that you had with people. you don't choose. People who are cobbled. together working through a shift and you. start to know their footsteps. You start.

to feel the cologne they wear, the gum. and when that gum will expire. You can. hear how they cough, how they talk, and. the intimacy that comes from the. circumstantial labor cobbled together is. actually the foundation of so much of. our country. Um, so much of it is. founded on labor, loneliness, and love. In the midst of all that, I think that's. so powerful. Don't you all? You have. your chosen family. You have your family.

that you're born into. Many people have. a chosen family that they found. But all. of us who work and certainly I remember. during certainly all the years that I. spent here in Chicago, 25 years just. down the street that we were our own. circumstantial family. and were integrated in each other's. lives in a way that you weren't. integrated in the lives of all the. people who were your biological family. Yeah. And I have to say, you've created.

the most memorable misfit mly crew of. characters. And I love that each one of. them had their own level of kindness. in their own unique way. And I think. that that kind of group uh happens all. over the world. People create. camaraderie with each other. How did you. come to realize each one of them and you. were able to express each of their. kindnesses? Oh well, I think when I was.

a a fiction student, we were told going. back to Aristotle that the greatest work. of fiction usually has a reversal of. fate. You have to change at the end to. bring the audience a kind of katharsis, rags to riches. He gets the girl, the. girl gets the guy. Uh you're going to. find the body, you'll find the murderer. So there's it works in a very commercial. way that there's a promise of katharsis. there's a kind of deliverable. Um, and it works in the same way when.

you buy a car or a home or a washing. machine. And I thought, and yet American. life as I saw it growing up as an. immigrant in this country didn't work. like that. My aunt works at FedEx for. almost 40 years. My brother works at. Dicks Sporting Goods for 15 years. The. people who I love, they work the same. jobs. They drive the same car. They live. in the same homes for 20, 30 years. Some. of them don't get raises. Some of them. don't move up. And yet their lives are.

not worthless. It's not like their lives. are not meaningful. Meaningful. Yeah. You know, and and there was this when I. was trying to learn how to be a writer, everyone said you have to change. You. have to improve. And meanwhile, American life as I saw it. wasn't improving. But it doesn't mean. that these people didn't have lives full. of dignity. That's why I love this book so much and. why the characters I think have stayed.

with me because you as the author are. the voice for the people whose stories. never get told. Yeah. just ordinary. folks working every day doing the best. they can to keep their heads above water. and going on with their lives and trying. to have a little bit of laughter, a. little bit of fun, a little bit of of. relief. And you do that so well because. you have been that person. You you just. started out by by sharing with us that. you worked at Boston Market. Is that.

where the idea for the for the home. market came from? Yeah. Yeah. Um I I hope I changed it. just enough. [laughter]. uh not to have a not to have to hire a. lawyer. Um. but I worked there for two years. I. worked at Panera Bread as well. And you. know what I found was that. it's easy to be kind when you have so. much to give. When you have so much. means, you have so much wealth. It's it. is it's easy to give when your life.

doesn't change when you can give so. much. And it's a beautiful thing. It's easy to give when it doesn't cost. you anything to give. That's right. Yeah, that's right. And and what is it? Kindness without hope. When you don't. have hope that the kindness will. drastically change anyone's life and yet. you still give it. That has always. fascinated me. Even as a child, you. know, we are a culture that fetishizes. talent, athletic talent, musical talent, writing talent. But I wonder what would.

happen if we had prodigies of kindness. If we can celebrate children when we tap. into this innate kindness and I've saw. saw that at the home market at the. Boston markets at the Panera Breads. where people are always when there's so. little they can do to affect change they. still go out of their way they don't get. paid extra they don't get anything extra. and yet it's it's the moments after the. shifts having the cigarettes after being. slammed people being diagnosed with.

cancer in the middle of the shifts. getting on the phone calls. There was a. wild moment. in my time at at Boston Market that I'll. still I think I'll it's been almost 20. years and it's still in my head and. it'll probably be in my head until I. die. I didn't put it in the book because. it's too dramatic. You know, sometimes. as an author, he said life is more. dramatic than fiction can allow. You. know, it would be too too pressurized. But I was being trained early on by this.

man named Ruben. He was in his 50s and. he was training me. And uh the first. thing he taught me was how to eat a. spinach croissant in under 30 seconds. [laughter]. He says he says if you're hungry, you. don't have to take a break. You can you. can you can slip two croissants in your. apron and then you can go into the. freezer cuz nobody goes into the. freezer. You know, you can't go in the. into the bathroom cuz a customer might. see you. That's really odd. see someone. eating a croissant and then it the next.

hour later we're cleaning out the. freezer and there's something that's so. peculiar with what I circumstantial. family. We have our backs to each other. I'm 19 years old. We're cleaning the. freezer and we're talking about family. We're talking, oh, you have a brother, what have you. And to this day, I'm. haunted by what happened because he's. he's talking about his sons and he just. says something. He says, "You know, I. can't tell my wife this." And I thought,

"Oh my god." You know, like, "Am I going. to hear a crime of God or a crime of the. law?" You know, he says, "I have three sons, but I only love one of them.". Wow. And I'm 19. I don't know what to say. other to give an affirmative kind of. like, "Oh, uh-huh." You know, like I. just don't know what it meant. Uh-huh. And he says, you know, there's no true. connection I have with Jake. There's no. reason for this. And the others do good.

by me, I do good by them, but I I'm. coming to realize it's such a strange. thing that I only love one of them. Do you ever feel that? And I said, I I. don't know. I don't know. I'm 19. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think there's something about. labor. There's enough anonymity where he. knows that when we clock out at 6 p.m., I'll never see him until the next shift. I don't know where he lives. I don't. know his sons. And there's something. really unique about modern life and.

maybe all of life where that kind of. laborious intimacy allows us to say. things we won't even say to our priests, our loved ones, our family, our best. friends because there's no judgment. Wow. I thank you for sharing that story. I can see why that would live with you. for ever. I don't know why. I still think about. that and I don't understand it, but I. just knew that he I was receiving. something really. intimate, personal, vulnerable.

that he probably hadn't shared with. anyone. Anyone? Yeah. So, I've heard you say writing is about. listening. rather than making. I think that is so. fascinating. What is it you're listening. for? You say writing is about listening. rather than making. When I was a younger. writer, I thought you had to fill the. page or else nothing happens. But the. more I work at this, the more I realized. that writing is about listening to the.

world. You're collaborating with the. world. You don't shut it away and go. into your little desk or your cave and. create genius work. It doesn't work like. that. Ultimately, nobody writes a good. sentence by accident. It comes with. care. You have to really care for the. world. And every author's book is. multiple drafts means it it comes out of. tireless care, obsession, worry. And.

when you hold up anyone's book, you're. getting their best self. And the best. self for me comes from really engaging. with the world without judgment. and. really being interested in people. At. the end of the day, all I would say is. that as an author, I'm just really. interested in human beings. That's. that's it. Everything else is craft. You. can learn that. You'll find a way to get. that. But what you can't learn is a deep. investment in compassionate watching and.

listening of our species. And that's what this whole story is all. about. It means you've watched and. observed and uh I feel that parts of you. are high but then you're not high. So. you are high or not high, right? He's a lot better than me. I I I get one draft at life and I. usually mess it up but Hi got 12 drafts. So [laughter]. it's uh he's a little more refined.

Okay. So I will tell you that um I've I. read chapter one sometimes just to soo. myself particularly in these times. and um over Christmas holidays I was. with my chosen family. I've raised these. girls since they were 12 years old and. now they're in their 30s. And there were. four of us at my house. and we were sitting around a crackling. fire reading out loud. Uh-uh.

Chapter one. I mean, when I think of. that, I think about the people as. teenagers drinking in their father's. trucks, and I think I think, "Wow, all. of that's true." And then time passes, and then they're sitting there in the. same trucks or different trucks, and. there they are with the babies in their. arms and they don't even know how they. got there. How are you able to able to. get that? I think at the heart of every. writer, you have to really love the. world, even when it's difficult to love.

And I think description. is autobiographical in that when you. describe something, you're giving it a. point of view. How you describe. something, how you see something says a. lot about yourself. And I think I saw. all these people in my life and I never. heard anyone write about them. And I. said, "If the sentence can pin life to. the page, I want to pin these people who. never got to get out." You know, we. fetishize these heroes journey about.

getting out of this town. And it's a very um cathartic one. We. love these stories. We want to feel like. everyone can get out, but the majority. of people can't. and and won't. and won't and sometimes by choice. sometimes they have to stay and take. care of elders who are ill. They have. jobs they can't leave. And I just didn't. see the literary world write about. people who had to stay cuz that's. actually much more interesting to me.

It's easy to go to the big city and have. a different life. It's much harder but. more interesting to ask yourself, how do. I make do without escape? That becomes then an existential. question. How do I make do in this body. if I can't leave it? The book starts. with a young man deciding to jump off a. bridge. Yeah. And he's stopped by an elderly widow. doing laundry. And it's a personal.

crux for me because when I was a. teenager, one of my best friends took. his own life with a gun. He was 16. My. uncle at 28 took his own life. And. usually when we talk about suicide, it's. usually like, oh, they struggled, but. then they didn't do it, and that's. triumphant. Great. But actually, what I'm more. interested in is like, how do you live. and go on in the aftermath of that. decision? If you decide to end your life.

and then ultimately decide not to, what's day two look like? What's day. three look like? what's the aftermath of. living and deciding to live and have the. will to live without the hope of living? And I I just I wanted to know that of my. uncle because I didn't get that from. him. So I think I write in order to. understand that, you know, what if he. got to have an aftermath where he's.

still alive? What would that life look. like? That seemed like a much more. interesting place to write a book from. rather than to say, "Oh, well, they. didn't do it. End the story. Everyone. clap. and then life goes on. Yeah. And you think life goes on just as it. was before, right? Yes. Well, Hi is a 19-year-old who meets. Graina, an elderly woman who brings hope. into Hi's life against all odds, and she. and Hi form an unlikely friendship. What. was your intention in bringing these two. characters together?

Oh, I felt, you know, on one hand, they're very different. He's 19, she's. 84. Was there a Gazina in your life? Because you dedicate the book. Yeah. To Groina and you say in memory of. Graina. Yeah. It's a long convoluted story, but. Gina is the grandmother of my partner. And when I was in college, I dropped out. of business school. I lost my housing, lost my tuition, and I was casually. dating my partner, Peter, and he was in.

law school, and we were kids. And I. said, I I'm kind of homeless, but I want. to go to school and study English, you. know. And he said, one day he called me. He said, I talked to my mom. My grandma. lives alone. She's very independent. She. wants to stay in the house that she. lived in after fleeing Stalin, fleeing. World War II. She's a self-made person, a refugee like myself, and you can live. with her and go to school. And so I live. with her for three years. Um, and we we.

had this incredible bond that then led. to my partner and I's relationship. blooming because it's it's this kind of. strange quintessential American family. He would visit from school, but I would. live with her every day. And here we. are, two refugees from two different. wars, two different continents, 20 years. apart, and we are in Brooklyn living. probably the most American life I can. think of. It's not the white picket. fence American life, but it's still. true. And and that reciprocal care.

Yeah. I had to care for her as she took looked. out for me. And I was so inspired by. this because I think both the very young. and the very old are on the margins of. society. They're no longer in the. center. The young are said, "Oh, you. don't know enough. You don't have. enough. You don't own enough to. contribute. You don't have a degree. you. don't have the credentials in the old. You're defunct. You're out of the. market. You're in the retirement. Push.

yourself away. And so both the young and. the very old in my observation in this. country live in a perennial loneliness. Yeah. And when they get together, you realize. they're actually a lot of common ground. when people have been pushed to the. center. I wanted to write a book where. the people who were pushed to the. absolute fringes of society get to. occupy the center and the camera would. just not pan away. I did not want to. plot that solved them. I did not want.

anyone to get a better job, to have a a. better home. There's no improvement. It's just life. And it's kindness. without hope, which which is kindness at. the highest cost. And yet we all know. people every day who are kind and. gracious and good to each other despite. all of that. Kindness without any hope. of return. That's just something I'm so. fascinated in. Well, that's why I loved on page 253. whereina is talking and she says to be.

alive and try to be a decent person and. not turn it into anything big or grand. That's the hardest thing of all. You. think being president is hard? Ha. Didn't you notice that every president. becomes a millionaire after he leaves. office? If you can be nobody and stand. on your own two feet for as long as I. have, that's enough. People don't know. what's enough. Labos, that's their. problem. They think they suffer, but. they're actually just bored. They don't.

eat enough carrots. [laughter] I love. that. But I love that because she's so. That is so right. I mean, to be able to. stand on your own and to continue to be. kind in a world that's often very unkind. to you, that's the real hard work. Our. audience has read this book and they're. I know you're all excited to be able to. ask questions. Brashidita is here. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Congrats on your book. It's a. masterpiece. I must say that I felt a.

close relation with Grazina and Hi. There were some moments I burst into. tears. I think Graina and Hi heal each. other and they were literally like a. medicine to each other. So my question. is there was so many poetic lines in the. book and there was this line at the. beginning of the chapter. The hardest. thing in the world is to leave only. once. So what does this line mean to. you? Does it resonate for you on any. personal level or does it resonate with.

high and the characters involved? That's how the book begins. The hardest. thing in the world is to live only once. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in a sense, you know, the idea of. yolo, you only live once, um, has been really destructive to our. world. You know, corporations think they. only have one life to harvest. the most profit out of the environment. and therefore harm the environment. Um, you know, we're told again and again, no.

regrets, just seize the day. And it's. very self-centered in a way. But I think. another way to think about you only live. once is what if you only have one chance. to live with care, consideration, a sense of obligation to each other. And. it's not even like this, you know, goody. woo woo selflessness, but it's actually. makes your life much better when you. live with the obligation that you owe.

each other everything. both strangers. and family and your environment and your. community. And so I wanted to just. change the meaning of yolo. And as a. poet, I love that one phrase could have. double meaning. You can approach it that. if you only have one life, what if you. didn't just grab everything you can in. the candy store, leaving it a a total. catastrophe in your wake, but what if. you did it so that other people can also. inhabit that space and you can improve. it? And you know, we our culture often.

thinks that's silly, that's childish, right? It's too wholesome and earnest. But I think earnestness is an incredible. courageous thing. I respect it immensely. in the people I meet and the students I. have. If you're earnest and sincere, it's it's the the most greatest truth. because it means that you're willing to. to risk vulnerability and ridicule. you're willing to be wrong and come off. silly because you believe in everything.

I I I think it's okay to believe in. everything. It's okay to believe that if. you have this one life, you should try. to make it better for other people. Children just have that. It's not a. question to them. But as you get older, we start to be more fearful of that. because we think that if I believe in. goodness too much, then I've fallen for. something. Yeah. I've been duped. I I I've been stymied. into believing goodness and sometimes. it's really hard. There are days where I. can't do it but that's my north star and.

that's why I started the book with that. north star is that the hardest thing is. to live only once. So make it count and. make it count for others as well. Thank you Pashita. Did when you started. the book did you start it with high. story cuz I've talked to authors they. start in the middle. Wally lamb told me. he started you know this one is true. He. started it in the middle cuz he had the. idea for the twins. Where did where did. it start for you? It started with landscape. It started. with the town. I write by hand. So I.

wrote this the day after the election in. 2020. The when the results are coming. in, it was kind of chaotic. No one knew. what was the results were. And I said, "All right, I'm going to rent a room. I. live in Western Massachusetts. I'm going. to rent a little cabin and just go away. [laughter] and when I come back, hopefully we'll know what's happening. But it got more and more convoluted as. you remember from from that election. Yeah. And no one knew where the country was. going to be headed, who was going to.

head it. And I turned off all the radios. and TV. I went to this cabin. I start. writing by hand. And I spent nine pages. writing about the towns in the. Connecticut River Valley that sustained. me, that I grew up in because I wanted. to really think like what is my America? what is America? And I want to really. sink in to the town as a character, as. description. I wanted to really love it. in all of its difficulty to just present.

it and not go on with a plot. So, it. started with space. It started with land. and the history of land because land is. tied to history. And at the end of the. day, I think I write historical fiction, not in the sense of of, you know, a. period piece, but I write fiction that. has history involved in it. And land is. a part of history. Yeah. This on page. three where you're just describing the. natural area, and you say, "Look how the. birches blackened all night by starings.

shatter when dawn's first sparks touch. their beaks." I went, "Holy Jesus, who. is this guy?" [laughter]. When Dawn's first shadow touched their. beaks, it felt like we were right there. watching them disperse. Right. Well, the sentence is a linear. technology. So, it's a kind of a track. And what you do as an author is that. you're asking a reader for their trust. to say, "Just stay with me in this.

track." Because it's a it's a big leap. of faith. It's almost like when you're. riding on a roller coaster. It's like. we're it's one track and as an author. you have to say, well, I'm going to. let's just come with me and we're going. to zoom in on something that people. often drive past and don't think about. And so the book is a wonderful. opportunity to recalibrate value systems. to craft a different hierarchy of values. and let's just stay on these starlings. and and love this landscape because it's.

so brutal because it's so fruitful to. the communities that live it. And also. what is America? You know, I was haunted. by that. I don't know what next week is. going to look like. Um, but I I know. that this this landscape in all of its. paradoxes has sustained my imagination. and I wanted to be true to its history. Wow. Crystal is here. I hear the small. town setting of this story. Really? You. connected with this.

very much so. Thank you so much, Ocean, for giving us this book. It was. incredible. I loved it. Thank you. Um, so I know that this is. set in New England, but it felt like. East Gladness could be any small town. really, suspended in time. I grew up in. middle America in and around towns that. were left behind. And it immediately. transported me in chapter 1 when I was. really feeling something deeply. familiar. So I felt really life at the.

edge of nothing. The looming presence of. addiction, the randomness of tragedy, working poverty, fast food, and this isn't the first time that. you've written about small towns and. near rural life. And I wanted to know. what draws you to this kind of setting. and what continues to inspire you about. places like this. M. I grew up in Hartford and Harford is. interesting because if you drive you're.

in the middle of the city and it's the. city that's often been forgotten. We we. we often have a saying that all the good. things are sucked up by Boston and New. York and so it is a place where when you. come to it the people there are the. people who can't get out right there's. they're they're what's left over. We. have that mentality and Harford is. interesting. You drive 20 minutes and. you'll be in a corn field. You could be. in the middle of of skyscrapers, drive. 20 minutes in any direction, you'll be. in a smack dab in the middle of a.

cornfield. I was surprised to hear that because I. used to go to Hartford. My friend Gail. started her career there in Hartford. Yeah. Really? WFSB in Hartford? Yes. And. so I was thinking, I didn't know there. were corn fields near Hartford at all. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's right across the river. and a lot of people work in the fields. and then live in the city and vice. versa. And I realized that when you live. in a small town, in a small community, you owe respect to everybody because you. can't be part of my French, an.

If you are, people know your name and. they know your family and they know your. grandmother. And I felt like there's a incredible, you know, obligation that you have by. offering each other dignity because. there's nowhere to hide. You can be you. can be a jerk in New York and you just. fade into the subway and then that's it. But there's no anonymity. You have to. stand by what you believe. You have to. defend and argue yourself and then you. have to face each other when you don't. agree. You have might have to work side.

by side. And so I wanted to see that. that's actually not a place left behind. That's a advantageous even innovative. way to relate to people when you cannot. hide behind anything. You have to face. each other with respect, dignity, and a. kind of proximity that so much of. America really is. If you talk to. people, everybody kind of wants the same. thing. Even though our we have vastly. chaotic and desperate political beliefs,

at the end of the day, we want to live. with dignity and respect for each other. And living in a small town forces you to. do that. And it allows you dexterity. with the language. You know how to talk. about something without offending each. other, right? You talk so that you can. you can see each other again at the. laundry mat because you will. Cuz you will. [laughter] Everybody knows. your business. You do. Becky, you have a question. What. is it? On page 23, one of my favorite lines,

and I even wrote a little heart by it. Um, and after I read it, I went and. shared it with my family as well. Hi. asked Grazina when her husband died, how. did she know? And she said, "When does. anybody die?" She shrugged. When God. says, "Well done." So would love to know. what that line means to you. Yeah. Thank. you. It was all her. You know, um I used.

to be really annoyed before I wrote a. novel when authors say, "Oh, I don't. know. the the the characters told me. what to do, you know, I just follow them. along and I said, "Oh, come on. You. wrote the whole thing. You know what it. is." But when I started writing a novel, I think what happens is that you create. a character and they start, you give. them parameters. of things that they would or wouldn't. do. And you have to be faithful to that. and not betray that. And even though.

they'll say things and do things that I. personally would never say and do, it's. still true to them. And when those. parameters are so narrow and they're so. realized, you really sit down and say, "What would they say?" And they would. only say the things if you're faithful. to those parameters. And sometimes you. can force it and it gets creaky and bad. But if you're faithful, they'll keep. revealing something so idiosyncratic. And when I was writing that scene by. hand, writing by scene by hand is really.

helpful for me because I stay in the. scene longer. if I write on the computer. it gets it's too quick. I stay and I. said what how is she going to respond to. this question? I literally was like come. on you know and I'm in her world and. she's leading me forward. So you don't get writer's block. I don't I don't I don't believe in that. because writer's block is in relation to. productivity because then you have to. ask well block according to whom? Block. according to what measure of production?

Um, so for me it's like if if if I can't. write which happens I think and that's. productive. It's it's not about just. creating a quantifier. That's why you got the MacArthur's. genius grants. That's what the genius grant is all. about. Thinking a little too much and getting a. few white hairs and the, you know, I got it. I got it. All right. Other. questions from the audience. Rebecca, I.

hear you have a question for me. Yeah, I do. I really related to the. relationship between Grisina and Hi when. I was reading this book. My grandmother. moved in with my family almost 20 years. ago and she also has dementia. So, there. were a lot of moments where she fell and. we had to rush her to the hospital. So, seeing Hi go through that same thing. felt really familiar. So, Oprah, I was. wondering, is there a character. relationship storyline in this book that. really resonates with you? Every part of it resonated with me. I. was uh I I I I loved Sunny. I loved.

Sunny's relationship with High. I loved. Grisina's relationship with High. I. loved everybody in the home market. I. wanted to go there and have some of that. damn cornbread. I could taste that cornbread. I know. it's got a lot of sugar in it, but I I. wanted to have some cornbread. And I I I. just thought I wish I could go to the. home market and hang out and sit there. and hang with everybody. I I I I really. did. I mean, obviously the mother figure. in me was like, "Call your mother. Go to.

your mother. Are you going to go?" And. my girls when they were reading it, they. were like, "Is he never going to Is he. going to definitely run into his mother, right? He's going to run into his. mother." And I kept thinking, he's going. to run to his mother. And I'm not. telling you whether he did or not, but I. really wanted that relationship to also. be resolved in some way, but I couldn't. pick a character. I mean, I think it. would be a hoot to sit with Grazina and. have some uh one of those uh coffee.

blends here from Starbucks. I think that. would be great. But all of them. Do you. have a favorite? Oh god. It's like choosing the favorites. among your children. And I although you. people do, I guess [laughter] I told. you. You only loved one son. Uh. but I I think I would have I would learn. a lot from Meereen. Oh. Uh. cuz I feel like there's more to her and. I I feel like I'm the I can get more out. of her. You know, there's so much life. there. There's so much um hurt and yet.

um she's always around for everybody. because she has nothing at home. You. know, she lives in a a kitchen to you. know, she's running out of money to to. heat her house, so she lives in a. sleeping bag. her sons died and so she's. very cranky, but that's just the the. facade to make it through the world as a. woman. And when they all went out looking for. that that that diamond, they y'all knew. you weren't going to find a diamond, right? No. Okay. No, which is purposeful because like.

they all did it for him. They all did it. for him. They knew they weren't going to. find it. I did. I [clears throat] want I wanted. to do the hero's journey without the. payoff. So then it's just it's just the love. that pushed them forward. Not the. diamond. You don't get the ring. There's. there's no like final gift. This is what's so beautiful about the. book, don't you think? This is what's so. beautiful about the book. It's it's just. ordinary people living their lives. The. thing that got me though was the pig. scene. I don't know if I mean, wasn't.

where did that come from? Did you have a. pig experience in your own life? I did. Um, [clears throat and laughter]. I I worked on a a tobacco farm um. illegally as a child. I got paid under. the table. I was 15. It was for 950, which was back in 2002 was a whole load. of money. The minimum wage was 715. So, you get 950 picking tobacco. It meant. the world. And so, but some of the. workers there, they were all older. Um,

they also they said, "Hey, there's a you. want to come to this, you know, slaughter house, you make $20 an hour.". I said, "Oh, you were making$50.". $950. Okay. So, it's $20 at this at this. slaughter house in Connecticut. And I. thought, you know, I didn't really I thought in. my head, in my 15-year-old head, it was. like just packaging. meat, you know, like I thought, oh, you. just put it in a little tray and then it. goes off to the supermarket. And I. followed these guys, you know, in the.

pickup truck. One day they drove us. there and it was my like trial. I lasted. just 30 minutes. I went in, I looked, I. said it was like war. and and and I was so interested in that. because. I think often we say there's humanity. and then there's animalistic tendencies. But when I look at our history as a. species, it's the humans that are the. most anim animalistic. And the way that these hogs were.

butchered was so cruel, so bloody. And I wanted to parallel that as an. allegory with how labor is in this. country. You know, people work day day. in and night out and they're just thrown. to the wolves. And when their bodies. break, as the many of my relatives. bodies stop working, my mother's breast. cancer, which ultimately killed her, was. most likely breathing all the chemicals. in factories and nail salons. You you're.

just thrown out. And the slaughter of. human beings, both in the opioid. epidemic and the labor system, is very parallel to the slaughter of. animals. And I've learned that if we. want to really know how brutal we can be. as a species, we have to look at what. we've done to animals. And that becomes. the foreshadow of what we will do to. each other. Whoa. I'm going to sit with that a. second. [snorts]. Okay. Ryan. Ryan. Okay. Hi. Hi. Um, I want to say I thoroughly.

enjoyed this book from cover to cover. Oh, thank you. So, my question actually is in reference. to the the hog butchering scene. Um, you. mentioned Emperor Hogs at that point. Uh. Wayne, I think is describing the emperor. hogs. And there's also frequent. reference to penguins through uh Sony's. origami and his dream where he describes. the people in the town as little. penguins and little houses. Um it made me think of emperor penguins. So this brings me to the title. Um can. you shed some light on the use of the. word emperor in the title in reference. to that? Well, very good, very good reader. Um.

the professor in me gives you an A+. [laughter]. Um, so there are many illusions to this. and it starts with the Hamlet quote, right? We fat all creatures else to fat. us. We fat ourselves for maggots. And so. it it it's a lovely quote because it it. in that is this anxiety of the. anthroposine. All our dreams and wishes. for what? To give something give a nice. buffet to the maggots, right? And it's a.

wonderful way. It it sounds morbid, but. it's actually a wonderful way to live. life to say that all the petty arguments. for what? We're going to all end up in. the same place. If we're lucky, we'll. get a deathbed, right? We get to to to. meet the people that raised us and. supported us before we become food for. maggots. Um, and so the emperor, the. ultimate emperor for Shakespeare was the. maggot. The smallest thing is the ruler. of us all. But I I I like the title as a. poet because there's always double. meanings, right? So it feels very.

triumphant when you see it like in a. bookstore. The Emperor of Gladness. Um. I'm going to read it and feel all the. good [laughter] things. Yes. But as we as you see it in the first. chapter, Gladness as a town doesn't. exist. It's been renamed to Milsap. And. so to be the emperor of gladness is to. be the emperor of nothing, of emptiness. And when the emperor hogs, right, naming. is also a kind of warping of meaning. They're called emperor hogs not because.

they rule over anything but because they. historically have been used to feed the. emperor and it's it's such a cruel part. of naming. And so I hope that when. readers get to that revelation the title. starts to change tone and as a poet I. just love it when the same words start. to get warped. I think ultimately that's. what I'm interested in is warping what. was once stable towards something much. more malleable. It's not about making. something concrete but dissolving it.

towards the end of the book. Um that's. my hope and and emperor is a wonderful. word that has multiple meanings in that. sense. Thank you. Wow. Many of the characters struggle. with depression. Uh there's a reason for. that, right? Yeah. What is that reason? Well, I think it's important to to. destigmatize. sadness and depression. I think if. anyone's paying attention in the 21st. century, they should be sad, but it doesn't mean that they can.

they're condemned to sadness. And this. is what your show did. When I was in the. nail salon as an 8-year-old, what you. see is a bunch of strangers come. together and you talked about sadness. You talked about families falling apart. You talked about people surviving sexual. assault on your show. And all of a. sudden these women, all of whom are. strangers, now have permission to share. their stories. And I all suddenly I saw. language, you know, cuz that's what your. show was is it's talking. Yeah. Language.

suddenly became this permission for. everyone to bypass the small talk, bypass talking about the weather or. where I'm from, the Patriots. Yeah. and talk about our moments that. keep us up at night and and to. dstigmatize vulnerability. and everyone in in the nail salon just. lit up and they were all in the same. shared moment and there was an. incredible moment another moment for me.

this these two moments that stuck with. me in the nail salon where my mother was. not working on this woman but she was. next to the same desk and your show was. talking about a strange families, parents, uh, not be able to talk, something like. that. And we were all kind of wrapped. and chitchatting. And then this woman. getting her nail done, she stopped and. she just says, "Huh? Well, some days I wish I was I didn't. have any parents.".

And everyone was just kind of like, "What do we what do we do?" You know, there was a moment to me as a child. It. felt endless cuz I I I knew enough to to. think that's a crazy thing to say cuz. that means you wouldn't be alive. Yeah. And all of a sudden, another woman down. the down the aisle just started. comforting her and before you know it, everyone. said, "You know what? I I feel the same. way too, but there's other ways. You. don't have to feel that, you And then. and then the person working on her nail,

my my mom's friend said, "Well, I'm glad. you're here because I wouldn't get to. make your hand so beautiful." And all of. a sudden, here we are in an afternoon in. Connecticut. surrounding a woman who maybe wish she. wasn't born and trying to convince her. that she should have been here. And then. that revealed this kind of doubt in our. in ourselves. Yes. Yes. And then she, you know, it's. interesting. She just started laughing. and we we laugh because it's a relief of. tension and and we all kind of start.

that session just ended everyone. laughing. I don't know why these things. happen but language creates more. language and when we pay attention to it. the way you've done your whole career, you open up these little chasms. That. woman said what she said. We met her. where she was and it was because this. Yeah. conversation. conversation creating community. Your. mother died of cancer in 2019 and I read.

that you said that ever since you lost. her you felt like your life has been. lived in only two days. Can you explain. that? There's just the yesterday when she was. here and then there's the today when. she's not. I know there's been many. years since I can't I can't it's only. one threshold, mom and no mom. I was. raised by a single mother and um you. know when I was at her deathbed.

I couldn't um say what I wanted to say. As much as I just talked about how. language makes more language sometimes. when you're kneeling at your mom's. deathbed. and she's hallucinating, you can't say. the conversations. you have to meet them. where they are. And I didn't get to say. what I wanted to say to her, which is. why I wrote that in the last page of. this book. The last page of this book is. what I wanted to say to my mother. And I. think that's the most powerful thing. about fiction is that you give yourself.

a second chance. You create a a scenario. where these characters can play it out. for you. and Hi and his mother has this. conversation that I wish I had with my. mom, but I had no right to bring that on. to her when she's taking her last. breaths. Um, and so you write fiction to. to create something that's sharable for. people. And in a way, it's a fantasy. It's what I hoped I could say, but um, I.

didn't get to say it to the real person. And so I I create a a dreamland where. everyone gets to say what they need to. say. I'm so glad you said it. I'm so. glad you did. I think that this book is. an offering to the world. I just hope. that people are as moved to understand. the voices of the voiceless as we all. have been who had the benefit of being. able to receive your gift early this.

year. The Emperor of Gladness, Ocean. Bong, thank you for this magnificent. novel. There's so much more we could. talk about. A big thank you to our. wonderful Starbucks partners for. supporting us. I hope you buy the book. And then I think it's such a fun idea to. head to your local Starbucks cafe with a. friend. And the best thing in the world. I can tell you is if you're reading it. and a friend is reading it too because. then you can talk about all the. characters. So, thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Pleasure. And thank you all for listening and. watching. And we hope you'll join our. community and become a part of all of. our conversations. Subscribe to the. Oprah podcast on YouTube and follow us. on Spotify and Apple Podcasts or. wherever you listen. Go well everybody. The Emperor of Gladness. [applause].