Megha Majumdar: "A Guardian and a Thief" | Oprah's Book Club

It's Ma Majunga. [applause]. >> You were one of my best phone calls ever. because forever you didn't believe me, right? >> I didn't. >> No. [laughter]. >> I thought it was somebody from the. publisher who was pranking me. >> I could tell. And then you said. something that was so moving to me. In. the middle of the conversation, you just. go, "What a wild thing to happen in a. day.". >> [laughter]. >> It was [music] just an arrival from. outside the context of my life.

Hi there everybody. I am so thrilled to. be together with all of you listeners, watchers, and readers here at a. Starbucks cafe in New York City. [cheering]. >> Thank you for Oprah's book club. presented by Starbucks. And as always, Starbucks pairs each one of my new book. club selections with a special. handcrafted drink this month. It's an. iced banana cream protein matcha.

It is new and it's delicious. Everybody. says it is made with the Starbucks cold. foam that you know and love and now with. a high protein boost. So Starbucks is. the place to come together with good. coffee, with good company, and a good. book. And my new book club selection is. a guardian and a thief by Mea Majamar. Now it is the 119th book club I've.

selected and it's an exqu I'm telling. you this woman can write. It is, isn't. it? >> Yes. >> Yes. It is exquisitely written and it. packs an epic and very very timely story. in just 224 pages. Gail was very happy. about that cuz [laughter]. it goes over 300 pages. Gail's like, "What? People have lives? What are you. thinking?" So, it's about two families. on a collision course, both facing. impossible odds to save themselves and.

find a new home. But that doesn't even. begin to describe what happens when you. open the first page. I was taken in at. the very first page and then on the last. page, >> yes. >> Huh. >> My jaw was on the floor. So, we asked. our audience of readers uh to give us a. one-word book report. And some of you. said the story was haunting. Uh some other people said gut-wrenching. I would agree with that. And unyielding.

And I agree with all of those. And I. wanted to ask Alen here in the audience, what did you think? >> I I was honest to goodness shook like to. every fiber of my being. >> Shookth. >> Yes. Shookth. Shookth. >> Yeah. >> I couldn't put the book down. I finished. it late at night and no one in my house. was up and I was I I felt it physically. The ending. Physically. >> I know. I know. >> Thank you, >> Alen. Thank you. Uh, Christina, where.

are you? >> Over here. >> Okay. And. >> yeah, so for me, you painted such a. vivid picture in the book. Like I could. literally see the characters. I really. loved the interconnectedness between the. stories and the vivid imagery for me. showed me the humanity really behind why. people take such desperate measures. So, I really felt a ton of compassion for. every character in the book. Thank you. so much for that. >> Yeah. And uh my daughter girl, Tando. Doma, is one of my I call her daughter.

girl because she graduated from my. school in South Africa and she reads. every one of my book club picks and I. Tando and I read together many times and. I love hearing Tando's takes and I hear. a lot of you will love hearing Tando's. takes. So Tand So Tando called me goes, "Mama, [laughter] we have to talk about this. book." And I said, "No, we don't. I will. talk to you when we get to Starbucks.". [laughter]. So, so, so what did what did you think, Tando?

>> No, the fact that you wanted us to wait. until we got to Starbucks was tearing me. to shreds. I couldn't I I tried. everything to avoid my feelings. I went. to the gym. I come back. I'm still. thinking about the ending. I come back. to the kitchen. I'm like, "Let me take a. walk. Let me walk it off." I go out. again, go back for a walk. It's still on. my mind. And so, I called, I was like, "No, we have to." Because when we get to. the airport and. it's all just come to cr. >> Do not give away the ending. [laughter].

>> I won't give it away, but all I'm saying. is my hopes torn to shreds and pieces. I. know what it feels like when you're. about to leave for America. I was born. in South Africa. >> I know the countdown to. a month, 3 weeks to 5 days. You're 5. days away from the dream, the American. dream. the big thing. >> Yeah. >> And then I won't say nothing else. >> And then it happens. >> It happens. >> It happens. >> The time comes. >> The time comes. >> Or does it?

>> All right. Thank you, Miss Tando. Uh we. uh we won't give away major plot points. because I hope all the book lovers get a. chance to read it. Uh and I hope those. of you who have read it will pass along. the story to other people. And it the. story takes place in the near future in. the city of Kolkata, India. Is that how. you pronounce it? >> Correct. >> And that area is enduring years of heat. and flooding and famine. And so people. are desperate. And there are two central. characters that we'll be talking about. today. Ma and Bumba. Ma along with her.

2-year-old daughter Mishti and her aging. father Dadu are just a few days away as. Tando was saying from their flight to. come to America where Ma's husband is. waiting for them in Michigan. So, we. also meet a 20 uh year old, as I said, named Bumba. He's from a small village. outside the city and will do anything to. find a safe home for his parents and. little brother Robbie. So, welcome to.

Starbucks, Ma. >> Thank you so much, Oprah. >> Uh, how did you come up with this story? >> Well, it started with the place Kolkata. um is my hometown. I grew up there. I. lived there until I was 19. And recently. we've started learning that um Kolkata. is going to be one of the cities in the. world which is most profoundly affected. by climate change. It has grown hotter.

It is predicted to endure more storms. So I was reading about climate change in. Kolkata and thinking about well what are. hope and love going to look like in this. time of crisis? What will we do when we. understand. how the ethical self we want to be, the. moral self we want to be clashes with. who we are as mothers and parents and. guardians and caregivers? what will we.

do to confront that clash? And that's. what took me into the story. And one. very interesting thing I will say which. might resonate with all the parents in. the room, I struggled with the story. until I had my older son. >> in 2021 and the and the story completely. changed. It became so much more about. the mother and the other guardian and I.

started thinking about what will the. ferocity of this kind of love make you. do? Yeah, I think that's a very. interesting question. Did you all think. about that while reading? What would you. do? Because we all have what we think is. our moral center, but if you were. starving and your children were. starving, what would you be willing to. do to provide for your family? I think. it's fascinating for our current times. also that um that you chose to write a.

story about morals. and [laughter]. y'all think that's funny, but okay. [laughter] Uh and how what is right and. what is wrong can shift when you're just. trying to keep your family alive. What. intrigued you about that challenge? I am completely fascinated by the. conflict between. what is good for us and our loved ones,

our family, and what is good for the. collective, our neighbors, our society. And I think that the world that we live. in, the systems and networks of power. that we live in. force us to look at that gap because. what is good for me is not necessarily. good for my neighbor. Um how do we live. when we understand that our love, our.

hope can have a manifestation. which is vicious and fierce for somebody. else. M why did you want to write about. the experience of famine and hunger? I. think it's interesting. We hear all the. time about countries where people are. starving. We hear about what what's. happening in Gaza, what's happening in. the Sudan, what's happening in places. around the world. It's just a word. But. you were able to bring famine and hunger.

alive for all of us. I started from the complete opposite. place of thinking about how my family. bonds with food. We love cooking. We love eating. And. think about the emotional charge of. having a meal with people you love. That. connective tissue, it's so elemental. And when I was thinking about climate. change, I thought about, well, what.

happens when in that kind of crisis, our. familiar foods go away? What if you sit. down to dinner and instead of the food. that nourishes you that you love, it's. insect, protein, and algae? How is that. going to change how you feel about that. togetherness with the people that you. treasure. >> and what it means to steal an orange. from a child? Yes. Yes. Here's how you. describe how the media captures images.

of people who are enduring starvation. This is from page four. You say those. black and white newspaper photos in. which people appeared as sunken eyes and. twig thin limbs facing a photographer. who could do nothing for them. Their. fullness, their love, their humor, their. annoyance, their preference. paired by the lens to reveal what. remained which was hunger.

We all know those photos. We've all seen. those photos. But it's not often that we. even think about what's behind that. photo. What inspired you to write that? I think a lot about how. one of the things that fiction can do is. help us approach the truth of another. person in their fullness. Right.

>> Yeah. So even when we see a photo of. somebody who is flattened in a moment of. crisis, who is reduced to their crisis, fiction can restore who they are. Fiction can give them back, their jokes, their humor, their love, their. irritations, the things that annoy them, everything that makes them who they are. I think that is a beautiful task that. fiction can take on. >> And so how long have you been writing?

I've been writing since I was a child, but I was writing seriously. Um, I. started writing seriously in college. >> Yes. And did you always know that this. is what you were going to do? That you. had a gift for language? >> No. [laughter]. >> When did you know? When did you know? >> I think I knew when. So, writing is not just about writing, right? It's about living in a mode of.

inquiry. It's about living with. attention. >> I think that is just absolutely on Q. that it's about living with attention. Cuz what I notice is that writers pay. attention to everything and you will. find something maybe interesting one day. and not use it in in a story until 5 10. years later. Has that happened to you? >> Exactly. Yes. Very much so. News stories. that I read when I was in middle school.

showed up in my first book. Things that. I notice when I'm out on a walk. You. know, if you think about your own. neighborhood, if you think about the. doors and houses and people and gardens. that you pass by and you think about, well, how would I put this in words? Where is the language for this? And the. other thing that happens when you think. of yourself as a writer is you. understand that you have to be okay with. failing. This was new to me too.

because writing is so often about having. a vision for the story that you want to. tell and you sit down to write it and. you understand that you can't do it. It's difficult. You fail a lot and. sitting with yourself. >> You fail because what? They're not. words. >> You fail. >> You don't You can't find the words. >> You can't find the right words. >> You can't find the right words. >> You can't find the words that are true. You start up here and you have to.

excavate the language until you get to. the truest layer. >> Oh, I love that. >> Oo, girl. Snap. Snap. So here is a here. is a passage that I think is the truest. language. Uh as is every word in this. book. You write on page 24. In better. years in this kitchen, Ma had hummed as. she cleaned chickens to roast flesh like. her flesh washed potatoes sprouting.

white eyeballs. It's the first time I thought of those. little buds as little eyeballs. white. eyeballs and mushrooms with mud in their. caps, measured and rinsed cups of rice, pouring the residue like an overcast sky. in the bowl down the drain, not minding. if a few grains slipped into the sink. And I'm like, I have washed rice many. times [laughter]. and I never thought of the water that.

rinses off as an overcast sky. How do you come up with that? >> I think anybody can do it. You just you. just look you just look with attention. and you think, well, what am I really. seeing here? And what are the. connections that are forming for me in. my mind? I love this because I feel like. everybody here can be a fiction writer. Um, if you're a reader, you can write. And if you if you look and you allow.

yourself to stay in that moment, even. though it feels like an ordinary or. benal moment, if you allow yourself to. look for what is extraordinary and. beautiful and worthwhile in it, you can. see it too. You can see it. >> Yes. So I I think it's so interesting. the way everybody sees America. Ma sees. America as a as this place of refuge and. freedom. And you came here, as I. understand it, when you were 19. And.

what did America hold for you? >> I moved here at 19 to go to college. Um, I received financial aid and I was very. lucky. It was a gift from out of the. blue and it represented freedom to think. for myself. The reason I started. applying to schools in America from. India was the schooling system that I. was in felt very rigid to me. um I was.

taught to learn with the aim of. succeeding at exams and I knew that. that's not the mode in which I wanted to. do college and I wanted to come to this. country to go to classes where I would. be encouraged to form an opinion to. argue to question what I read and to. think for myself. >> Wow. And that obviously happened sister. [laughter]. Okay. This audience has a lot of. questions uh for you. Where's Rochica?

Rokica. Hi. >> Hi. Question for Mega. Both my parents. were actually born and raised in Kolkata. as well. So, it was really special to. read the story and see it take place in. that city. My dad came to the States to. go to college as well and my mom joined. a few years later after they got. married. For them, America was a land of. opportunity, potential. What do you. think America represented for Ma Mishti. and Dadu?

>> That's a great question and I'm so happy. that we are in the same room now. I think for the characters Ma Mishti and. Dadu, America represented. certainly a better future, a more secure. future, but it had different textures. for Ma who's the mother and Dadu who's. the grandfather. The different texture was that for Ma. she was purely excited. She wanted that.

escape. She wanted that feeling of. freedom and safety for her daughter. And she knew that she was escaping to a. place that was far away from her. hometown, which she loved and adored and. would miss. But it was also a city where. she had been harassed as a girl, and she. knew what it was like to be in the. streets of that city as a girl. So there.

were injuries that she could finally. escape from. Mhm. >> And for Dadu, the elderly man who always paid more. attention to the streetside jokes and. conversations and the poetry and the. laughter of the city. He felt that he. would be diminished. There would be a. version of himself. which he would leave behind in his. hometown. It would it would not go along. with him. So there was immigration.

There's pride in it, but there's also a. wound. There's also a wound which which. never heals and. >> the wound of having to leave your. country that you. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> I remember when I called you and you. were still so shocked. um. [clears throat] telling you that I was. confused as to why Ma was lying to her. husband. even though Were you all confused too? Why was she lying even though they faced.

disaster after disaster and so many. obstacles and you told me. that. okay who here in this room currently. lives far away from home from where you. grew up? Yes. Okay. So I think I think that you. will understand that feeling when you. live far away from your parents that. when you speak to them on the phone you.

have to protect them. You cannot let. them worry about you. That is your gift. of love to them. I am okay. Everything. is okay. And I wanted to talk about that. kind of loving lie through Ma and her. relationship with her husband. >> He's so far away. He's in Michigan. She's in Kolkata. There is nothing he. can do. But what she can do for him is.

she can protect him. You're not convinced. [laughter]. >> Not one bit. I You know what I think? I think it must. be a cultural thing. I think it must be. a part of your culture that that's what. you do is to protect your parents. >> cuz my my my culture says. >> help [laughter]. help me now. What can you do to get me out of this? [laughter]. That's not what culture I'm coming from.

Anybody else come from that culture. anyway? But I I I I hear what you're. saying that but I I don't get it. I. mean, even even at the at the end, which. I'm not going to even the end, the last. time she had an opportunity, she didn't. And she is she trying to protect him. then or does she is she gonna wait till. she gets home to tell him what. [laughter]. I mean was she still trying to protect. him or is I thought well is she is she.

still trying to protect him or is she. just now so accustomed to not telling. him the truth that. >> right she is she is too deep in this. story that she has fabricated that. things are okay and in that moment which. I won't give away she decides that she. has to continue doing that for him. That. is the form in which she gives him love. from so far away. >> Yeah. Uh I I I think you did such a.

masterful job really of allowing us to. see the characters as both guardians and. thieves. I saw both of them as guardian. and thieves. >> Did you all too? At first I thought. there was going to be a guardian and. then there's a thief. >> And then I thought both are guardians in. their own way and both are thieves. Is. this how you see human nature? Cuz at. first I wanted Booma. I was like sick of. him. [laughter]. Very sick of Bumba.

And then I think over time we changed. Right? >> Yeah. I was so sick of him. Oh my gosh. I was sick of him. Then I was like, "Oh. wait, he's just a little boyh. He's a. guardian. He's looking out. >> He's a guardian, too. He's a guardian, too. >> And so, you did this on purpose, obviously. >> Yes. Um, that's such a beautiful. question and a beautiful reading. Um, yes. I was interested in how there are. no villains and there are no saints,

>> you know. Um, within each of us there is. the impulse to protect and love and. there is that capacity. to harm others if we need to for the. people that we love. I think that's one. of the questions that I started out with. is would I do this? Would you do this? You know, where would your where would. the borders of your moral self be? And. what would you do if you felt like your.

love was pushing you up against those. borders? >> Yeah, cuz that that moment in the book. where we get to understand why the thief. does what he does. Yes. Uh here's what. you say about Bumba on page 87. But pity. was not a relationship. It was the. rejection of relationship. Boom vowed he. would not make a living through pity. Like his mother planting saplings until. a million were in the soil. He would. find freedom in his work. What does. Bumba represent to you?

>> I wanted to explore. the reality of two kinds of guardians. One who has resources, is pretty assured of safety to come and. one who is really struggling. So Bumba. is a villager. He's a young man. He is. struggling to find a foothold in the. city and he wants to protect his younger. brother. He adores this little kid. >> which makes him a guardian. >> Exactly. Exactly. And he will do.

anything for this little kid. Um and he. wants to come to this city and. >> but he also wants to impress his parents. too. He also wants to be the man and. wants to be able to say which I think is. also cultural very cultural. >> Yeah. He has made a mistake which I will. not get into but he feels that being in. the city alone is his chance to address. that mistake to fix what he did. Okay.

Where's Floren? You're Floren. Okay. Hi. >> Um I have to tell you that the passage. on page 147 really really connected with. me. Um where you say no Bumba was no. monster. Albuma was was a man whose. moral compass pointed toward north of. his own family. Wasn't that the most. ordinary thing in the world? And so I. guess my question to you is, you know, what did you hope um that this story. would reveal about human nature under. pressure?

I love that question. Thank you. I think that the project of all fiction. is to reveal something about human. nature under pressure. >> Wow. >> And in this book, I wanted to focus on. a moment at the edge where something is. about to change. You don't quite know in. what direction that change will occur.

And that moment of enormous pressure on. these characters is going to show us, I. think, how we will operate when we are. in situations of crisis, when we are in. unstable times and unstable situations. Who will we become? Are we our truest. selves now in this moment of peace and. comfort and abundance? Or is there a. truer self hiding within us which will. be revealed in a moment of scarcity and.

crisis? >> That's a good thought. Will you be able. to hold on to the center of what you. call your moral compass or your values. and your standards in the time of great. crisis or famine or disaster or you know. >> Exactly. >> you be challenged. Yeah. >> Yeah. Where's Shannon? Shannon, where. are you? Yeah. >> Hi. So, Mega, I smiled every time Dad Du. showed up on my page. Um, he really.

resonated with me in the sense that he. seemed to expect the best of his. neighbors and the community and it. really really resonated with me because. it reminded me of my own mother. Um, my. mom grew up not in Kolkata but in. Georgiana, Alabama in the ' 50s. And she. talks a lot about how community was. everything and how society was ordered. in institutions of community churches. and unions and the family. And nowadays, you know, we think about the self and. the individual. We take selfies. And I I.

was curious from you, you know, with the. generational shift between ma and dadu. Did you mean to have a a commentary. about modern society and the way we. think about ourself and the collective. as you beautifully put it? That's a beautiful question. Yes. You know, I wanted the reader to be. invited into this city and to see how it. is not only a place of problems, but. through the secondary characters,

there's a barber on the street, there's. a rickshaw driver, there's a person. playing the flute, there's a painter. through all of these secondary. characters. I wanted to show how vibrant. this community is. Um, this is a place. of real networks and connections where. people rely on each other, make claims. on each other, depend on each other. And. at the same time in modern society we. also.

live. under systems which do not serve us. So. if you think about the characters how. they go somewhere for help initially and. they find that they are on their own. >> right. >> um I wanted to think about both sides of. that the love and the moments in which. you realize oh this system is not made. for me. >> it was it's such a huge theme and it's a. backdrop of the whole book the the the.

wealth and benevolence in that dinner. without setting or giving way too much. >> was such a moment of wild contrast and. the choices. So, >> what were you getting at? Your. intentions throughout the book were so. clear. >> The benevolent billionaire lady. >> That's a great question. >> That is a great question. >> I think a lot about class. I grew up in Kolkata which is very. stratified. I went to school and from.

the school bus I would see little kids. who were not going to school. They were. by the roadside washing dishes. um or sleeping at a bus stop. and I was aware of class very early. So. in this book I really wanted to think. about well in climate crisis how are the. different. classes going to respond to this? Um.

what are we going to do with different. levels of resources? Um what is generosity going to look. like? What is gratitude going to look. like when people have an opportunity to. seize more? How will they take that moment? I don't know that I have the answers, but you brought up the question and. that's the question I had as well. >> And so this woman who's very wealthy,

her way of doing it is to bring all the. children and to feed the children. When. Bumba goes, this is a question I had. When Bumba goes, >> why did he drag poor Misty along with. him? >> Why did he drag Mishi? Did he know he. had to have Mishi? >> Yes. who could get in. >> Yes, he needed to have a child to get. in. Um, the feast was for children with. their guardians. So, he needed a child to gain access.

Initially, he thinks that he's going to. kind of scoop her portion into. a container for him for later. But he. goes there and he sees her hunger. He. sees that she needs help with cutting up. pieces or peeling something and. portioning something and he doesn't have. the heart to take the food away from. her. He helps her eat. And I wanted that. to be a moment of such great. contradiction, too. Here's this person. who is capable of doing.

really harmful things. But in the face. of a child who is hungry and needs help. with her food, he is unable to do. anything but help. >> So the. wealthy woman who does this, is she. really using her money to the greatest. advantage or is she doing this out of. her own to make her own self look good? >> That's a great question. >> That's a great question. Um.

>> that I'm supposed to answer, not you. [laughter]. Okay, >> it's probably a little bit of both. It's. probably a person who does want to help, has the resources to help, and is very. aware of how it looks and how it makes. her look and how it sets her up to. benefit in the future to show loyalty to. this city. >> Got it. Understood. Yeah, it's both.

>> Yes, >> it's both. You write on page 128 about. hope. You say hope for the future was no. shy bloom. I just love that. No shy bloom. Where'd. you come up with that? Anyway, hope for. the future was no shy bloom, but a blood. maddened creature fanged and tooththed. with its own knowledge of history's. hostilities and the cages of the. present. Hope wasn't soft or tender. It. was mean. It snarled. It fought. It.

deceived. On this day, hope lived in the. delivery of gold to a man who might be a. scammer. And perhaps hope lived also in. opening the doors to a thief. I I just I. don't know how you came up to see hope. in this way. Almost. That's the opposite. of how we normally view hope is not. gnarled, gnarled, and fanged. What was. going on that day? [laughter]. Makeup.

When I was reading about climate change, I encountered a lot of declarations of. hope. We must be hopeful. And the. supposition was always that hope is pure. and noble and unassalable. And I started thinking about well, what. happens if the manifestation of hope is. vicious and is harmful? Think of these characters who are.

parents and guardians who are trying to. protect their kids and everything they. do comes from a place of hope. But it is. not a place of collective hope. It's a. place of individual hope. Is that still a hope that we can be. proud of? Is that still a hope that we. will worship? I don't know. But the book. for me. >> Yeah. That's so good. You're so smart. That that just gave me little tingles on.

my arm. That's really That's right. Your. individual hope doesn't mean it's. hopeful for everyone else. >> Yes. >> And and and did you all find this uh to. be true that you're thinking about what. you would do in this in a similar. circumstance? And I think no matter what. you think you would do in the actual. moment, you you don't know until the. actual moment comes cuz we all think. that we will be able to hold on to our. moral center. >> Absolutely. I always I think I wouldn't. find a reason to be a thief, but who.

knows? Who knows? That's what you're. posing in this in this beautiful. beautifully written novel. So, I think. the circumstances are are are so dire. that some of the characters, as we know, resort to cruelty, like when Dadu steals. the orange from a little boy. Uh, I I. don't know if that's cruel as much as. it's just like so sad and pathetic and. something we all, as I was saying, we. imagined you would never ever do that.

>> What was it like for you to lead these. characters down the path that they chose. or you chose for them? [laughter]. >> Dadu was surprised at himself at taking. that orange. >> Yes, that moment. Dadu the grandfather. stole an orange from another child for. his own grandchild and but there was. something in him which saw his own. grandchild in that stranger's child too.

he felt moved when the child. pleaded with him I was responsible for. that orange I put it down for one minute. please give it back to me um so he. hasn't completely lost who he is This is. not coming from a place of being. cold-hearted. But coming back to your question of. leading the characters here,

I love thinking of fiction as a way to. ask questions. And I want to ask. questions with as much vigor and. intricacy and complexity as possible. So. in order to ask that question of. how will we live with ourselves when our. love comes up against. our moral selves to ask that question. I. had to push these characters into.

frightening alarming situations where. they help me think through that question. and they help me stay with it. >> Are you pushing them or are they guiding. you? I've heard authors say both. So, are you pushing them. >> or are they guiding you? And do the. characters come and sort of live in the. space with you for a while? >> That's a beautiful question. For the. first I wrote this book over six years. I would say for the first half of those.

six years, it was the consciousness of. the book leading me. It was the. characters telling me what is truthful. and what needs to happen. And that was a. time of me narrating the book to myself. And when I knew what the story would be, then it changed and it became for me. more about inviting the reader in. How. can I bring another person into this.

world? How can I encourage them to feel. what I feel? And then I feel like I feel. like I was leading the characters a. little bit more. You were leading the. characters. >> Good job. >> Good job. Where's Dipna? Dipna. >> here. >> Hi. Um, to me the story really spoke to. the ideas of fierce love and unrelenting. hope. And so, Mega, I wonder um,

you know, your writing is just so. beautiful and lyrical, but let yet you. left a lot of things kind of not neatly. tied up. Um, and so I felt like I had to. sit in this discomfort while I was. contemplating, you know, these unexpected things that. occur in life and all of its. complexities. How does that come to you as you sit to. write? Fiction helps me think about those.

contradictions and that space of unease. and discomfort where you understand that. there are so many contradictions in our. lives. You know, there is the ferocity. of love and there is our ethical. obligations and our kind of moral sense. of who we are. And fiction becomes then a space to sit. with those contradictions to understand. that the truth is not in this answer or.

that answer but in that space where. nothing can be resolved. And you live. with that. crowd of unresolved questions, but you. but you live with them while. acknowledging them. And that. acknowledgment, that space of being. truthful that they exist. These are. contradictions. This is how I live. That. space feels very fruitful for fiction.

>> You know, my heart dropped after this. line when Ma was dialing. She says, "Ma. dialed again and again while America. slipped through her fingers.". You all remember that? Uh, can you talk. about this idea of longing for something. so desperately. coming so close and the idea of you. might lose it? The emotions that I was drawing on.

actually came I don't think I've ever. really talked about this but um I got. into. Harvard from India and I was so excited. over the moon. I went to the consulate. for my visa interview and the consular. officer said, "You are not eligible for. a visa because you're getting so much. financial aid.". And I had that moment of America. slipping through my fingers. I thought,

I worked so hard. I got into this dream. school and now I'm not going to be able. to go because I'm not going to get a. visa. And I stood there before her. completely powerless. There was nothing. I could do. It was her decision to grant. me the visa or not. And I stood there. before her and she did something else. with the paperwork. She looked at it. again and somehow she changed her mind. and she decided to grant me the visa so. I could come here and study. But that.

moment of you work so hard for something. and somebody else's decision, something. else which is a factor completely. outside your control can take it away. from you. I think it shows up in our. lives in many different ways. >> And you then use that moment in this. story that is fiction. >> So Ma and Bumba's lives are forever. intertwined. The decisions that they make change the. course of the other's life.

And I'm not going to spoil it for you, but oh my gosh, is this book worth. reading for just that ending. Heartstoppping ending. Did you know the. ending from the start, or did the ending. reveal itself to you as you wrote it? Look at Tando sitting up. Let's see what. that is. >> I want [laughter] to know what you know. the ending from the start. Did you know. how this was going to end? For a while, I was working with a.

completely different plot. So, for a. while, no. I thought the end would be. very different. The characters were very. different. But when I became a mom and. then became more interested in Ma and I. found the true shape of this book, then. yes, I I did find this ending. And I. feel that some writers kind of work. their way through a book and they get to. the ending when the ending presents. itself, but I need to know what that.

final emotional note is going to be. because it helps me orient the whole. book toward that moment. >> Weren't you shocked? [laughter]. Weren't you shocked at your own thoughts. [laughter]. about this? I mean, weren't you shocked? >> I was sad. >> I was sad, too. I could start crying. right now. I I I could start crying.

right now. >> But weren't you shocked? Did you say, "Whoa, let me sit down for a moment.". >> It felt inevitable to me. >> Wow. I felt that it had to happen this. way. That was the most truthful place. for the story to go. And once. something about the story reveals itself. as inevitable and truthful to you, you.

kind of feel like you have to obey it. Did y'all think that was the most. truthful place to go? Really? I Yeah. Well, I admire your courage in. ending it that way. I do. I do. I do. I. just have to thank you. Anybody else. have any questions before we go? Yes. >> Yes. >> The reason I wanted to ask this is. because my favorite passage I feel that. you touched on when you said about um. fiction being exploring human nature.

under intense pressure. M you said in. the scene where Mars staring at the. wall. I won't say what had just. happened, but she said um she described. the pencil line on a wall as being a. fissure between continental plates. And. I thought that was like the perfect. metaphor for the whole book because it. sort of spoke to the fragility of life, love, our planet, um but also the. friction between truth and deception, love and loss. Um and the belief in the. reality of climate change or not. Um,

and earlier in the book you had written. lies were the lifeblood of the world. So. I kind of was intrigued to your thoughts. about the ways in which love and lies. can be both protective and destructive. for the characters in the book. >> Good question. >> That's a great question. >> I think a lot about. how I think we were all taught as kids, be honest, tell the truth. This is what. will get you far. this is what is. rewarded.

And then we grow up and we see that the. people in power do not live that way at. all. The people who triumph in our. society, the ones who consolidate power. are not the people who are telling the. truth and serving others. And I think a. lot about how do we live with that. contradiction. What does it mean then to. be an honest person? What do you gain from being honest? Or. is it completely the wrong way to think.

about gain in relation to honesty? Does. it give you something greater and more. truthful to yourself? Um, so I don't. know that I have found any answers, but. these are the questions that intrigue. me. >> Were you this way in the fifth grade? [laughter]. You know, because I think we all just. become more of ourselves. I mean, so I. was Miss Talkie Talk in the in the fifth. grade. People would say, "Oh, here comes.

that talking girl, that preaching girl.". So, were you this way? Were you this. thoughtful? Were you this like I was a. quiet kid who loved to read? I loved. reading Nancy Drew. >> Mhm. >> And Hardy Boys and Sherlock Holmes. I. read a lot of mysteries. So I was this. quiet kid who studied hard and read a. lot of books. >> and wanted to be a writer or not. >> I loved writing. I would always get sent.

as a representative of the school to. essay competitions and creative writing. competitions, but I don't think I knew that you could. write full-time and that could be the. way for you to live your life. I don't. think I really knew that. Um, but. writing, you know, it was a way for me. to play at first and it stayed a way for. me to play for a long time. until I.

realized, well, writing is a way for me. to. access something bigger than my own. life. You know, it is so easy, especially now with with two kids, to. have a life where my brain is completely. consumed by the logistics of my life, you know, preschool and meals. And. >> that's why when I called you, it was so. out of the context of your life. >> Exactly. didn't believe it was true. And. you said, "What a wild thing to happen.

[laughter] in a day.". >> Oh my goodness. Oh my good. What a wild. day. [laughter]. >> I guess that was a wild thing to happen. in a day. Yeah, >> exactly, Oprah. It was a Saturday and I. think, you know, I was trying to make. sure my son doesn't watch more than one. hour of cartoons or something like that. and and here was this phone call. It was. completely wild. Um, but yeah, your.

brain can get so consumed by our. immediate concerns and that becomes. life. And once you think about, well, that's not all there is to my life. I. want to think about bigger questions. I. want to think about beauty and joy and. morals. What is the right way to live? I. want to think about all of these. questions which are not pressing in my. everyday, >> right? But at the end of my life when I. look back on my life, I want to know. that I sat with these questions. I asked.

these questions. Um, and writing is a. way to ask those questions. >> Yes. A way to ask them and for you to. beautifully answer them as you have done. in a guardian and a thief. Thank you, Ma. >> Thank you so much, Oprah. This is a. dream. Thank you all so much. >> This is an extraordinary story you all. I'm telling you, it stayed with me and I. know readers are going to be thinking I. won't you be thinking about it for a. long time. It lives with you. Thank you. audience for all of your thoughtful. questions and for joining me in our.

happy place here where I get to do one. of those things I love the most and that. is read fantastic books like yours and. then talk with people who also are my. people who love to read as much as I do. And I just wanted you all to know. Guardian of Thief is available now. wherever you buy your books, wherever. books are sold. And we want to thank our. phenomenal partners here at Starbucks. for supporting the podcast and bringing. our community of book lovers together. You can get your copy of A Guardian of.

Thief, grab a friend, head to your. neighborhood Starbucks cafe, and have. that banana cream matcha. It's going to. turn your day into something such. something that's really wild. >> [laughter]. >> Go well everybody. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. [applause].